1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 2: Brian Coburger's trial erupts in anger in the courtroom. Are 3 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 2: local potential jurors being poisoned? I'mancy Grace, this is crime stories. 4 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 2: The judge erupts in anger in the courtroom as we 5 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 2: learn the defense team for Brian Coberger has been reaching 6 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 2: out my phone to potential gurrrs, basically tainting the jury pool. 7 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 2: But now we realize giving away their defense strategy. You know, 8 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 2: it has been so long now since the quadrat slay 9 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 2: in Idaho, many people are getting fuzzy on the facts, 10 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,119 Speaker 2: and that's exactly what the defense wants. 11 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: Delay. 12 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 2: Delay is a defense attorney's best friend. But here's a 13 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 2: harsh reminder. 14 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 3: On the evening of November twelfth and into the early 15 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 3: morning hours of November thirteenth, Kaylee and Madison arrived home 16 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 3: at approximately one forty five am after visiting a local 17 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 3: bar and a street food vendor. Ethan and Xana were 18 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 3: also out in the community as Sigma Chai, and they 19 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 3: arrived home at approximately one forty five am. Two surviving 20 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 3: roommates who were also at in the community arrived home 21 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 3: at approximately one am. Later on the morning of November thirteenth, 22 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 3: at eleven fifty eight am, a nine on one call 23 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 3: was placed. The call reported an unconscious person. The call 24 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 3: originated from inside the residence and a surviving room made 25 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 3: cell phone was. 26 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 2: Used, but it was not an unconscious person. Listen more 27 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 2: to Police Captain Roger Lamier. 28 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,839 Speaker 3: During that call, the dispatcher spoke to multiple people who 29 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 3: were unseen. Moscow police officers responded and found two victims, 30 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 3: two on the second floor and two on the third 31 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 3: floor of eleven twenty two King Road. The results of 32 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 3: autopsies indicated that the four were stabbed multiple times and 33 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 3: were likely asleep during the attack. Some had defensive wounds, 34 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 3: and there was no sign of sexual assault. 35 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 2: Joining me an all star panel to make sense of 36 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 2: what we know right now. 37 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: But there is. 38 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 2: A major, major kerfuffle in the courtroom, igniting anger from 39 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 2: the judge. 40 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: Is it true that. 41 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: Kuberger's defense team has actually been communicating with potential jurors 42 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 2: long before a jury is even struck And is this 43 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 2: an insidious way of tainting the jury pool and getting 44 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 2: the change of venue they so desperately want. 45 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: Take a listen to Dave Matt Crime Online. 46 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 4: As the Coburger defense team moves ahead with their preparation 47 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 4: to get the trial moved out of Leyta County. They 48 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 4: put together a research project and hired a polling company 49 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 4: to conduct a survey of area residents and ask them 50 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 4: questions about how much they may know about the murders. 51 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 4: The company had reached around four hundred residents before a 52 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 4: concerted citizen recorded one of the survey phone calls and 53 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 4: contacted the district attorney's office to complain about the call. 54 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 4: Prosecutors now say the polling company was asking questions to 55 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 4: plant negative opinions of Coburger in potential jurors minds, and 56 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 4: the hopes the calls would serve to prove that local 57 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 4: people were prejudiced against Coburger and the trial should be 58 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 4: moved to another county first too. 59 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 2: Highly respected a journalists, the Crime and Courts correspondent at Newsweek, 60 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 2: Sean adriscoll, Shawn, thank you for being with us. 61 00:03:58,120 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: What the hay is happening? 62 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's this very serious development, Nancy. We have a 63 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 5: situation where four hundred jurors in a small county have 64 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 5: now been contacted and told to have been given nine 65 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 5: questions about how they feel about Brian Colberger. And those 66 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 5: are questions that if they were ignoring this case, they 67 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 5: now know an awful lot about it, very incriminating information 68 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 5: about Brian Colberger that is now, as a prosecutor said, 69 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 5: is now saturated with the juror, with potential jurors in 70 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 5: the case. 71 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 2: You know what's interesting, guys with me Sean and Driscoll, 72 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 2: Crime and Courts correspondent Newsweek to Tara Malik joining US 73 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 2: high profile lawyer out of this jurisdiction there in Idaho 74 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 2: at Smith Malik dot com. Tara, if the state the 75 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 2: prosecution had done this, you know what would happen. Very 76 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 2: possibly a misdraw before this Trilley even starts with prejudice. 77 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: In other words, the state may not be allowed to 78 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 2: re try the case. 79 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: And this is a big deal, Tara, It's a very 80 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: big deal. 81 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 6: I mean, just to remind everyone, there's been a gag 82 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 6: order issued by the judge, and so the parties are 83 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 6: not supposed to be speaking publicly or disseminating publicly anything 84 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 6: about the case. And so the judge certainly made it 85 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 6: clear that he was displeased with the process that the 86 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 6: defense had undertaken to go about this pulling. And you're 87 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 6: talking about a small a small county, four hundred people 88 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 6: being contacted is a really big deal. And some of 89 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 6: those questions were certainly seemed to be planting information or 90 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 6: suggesting information that I think the prosecutor even remarked were 91 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 6: not actually accurate and wouldn't be introduced at the trial itself. 92 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 2: Okay, she sounded like a criminal procedure professor speaking to 93 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: three l's, not one ls, but three l's because they 94 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 2: know a good bit of procedural language. 95 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: Tara, let me break. 96 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 2: It down these questions that were asked potential jurrrs on 97 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 2: the phone, and the judge got ahold of an audio tape. 98 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 2: Somebody taped one of these calls from the defense, and 99 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 2: it brings up issues that may not even be allowed 100 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 2: at trial. Hey, let's see the tears of what exactly 101 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 2: was asked of these potential jurrrs. Nine questions that we 102 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 2: know of the judge whose last name is judge, judge judge, 103 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 2: let me just say royally pod technical legal term. Okay, 104 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 2: here we go. Have you read, seen or heard? And 105 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 2: Brian Coberger was arrested at his parents' home in Pennsylvania. Well, 106 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 2: whoa wait a minute, what if the circumstances of that arrest. 107 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: Had been thrown out? 108 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 2: What if the jury wasn't allowed to hear that he 109 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 2: was apprehended standing in his kitchen, his parents' kitchen, and 110 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 2: in some shorts. I think possibly is underwear, wearing rubbert gloves, 111 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 2: separating trash. Okay, right there, straight one, What normal guy 112 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 2: is wearing rubber gloves in his parents' kitchen, in his 113 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 2: underwear separating the trash? Okay? 114 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: Number two? 115 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: Have you read, seen or heard if police found a 116 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: knife sheath on the bed next to one of the victims. Okay, 117 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 2: that goes straight to finding DNA? Nine questions in all 118 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 2: very quickly. If I could see three and four, have 119 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 2: you read, seen or heard that DNA found on the 120 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 2: knife sheath was later matched to Brian Coburger? 121 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: Okay, wait a minute, Wait a minute, what. 122 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 2: If by some impossible feat the defense managed to get 123 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 2: that DNA thrown out? Well, now they've just tained the 124 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 2: jury pool by telling them there was DNA on the 125 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 2: knife sheath that matched to Brian Coburger. 126 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: Four. 127 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 2: Have you read, seen or heard if Coburger owned the 128 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 2: same top of car reported seeing driving in the neighborhood 129 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 2: where the killings occurred right there, we see where the 130 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 2: defense is going. We all know his vehicle was spotted 131 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 2: in the area. Hold on is cart before the horse, 132 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 2: But now we see they're headed towards saying that just 133 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 2: looked like his car, not his car. Five Have you read, scene, 134 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 2: or heard if the cell phone tower data showed Coburger 135 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 2: made several trips near the victim's home in the month 136 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 2: before the killing. That tells me they're going to attack 137 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 2: the cell phone tower information. 138 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: Have you read, seen, or heard if. 139 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 2: University students in Moscow and their parents lived in fear 140 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 2: until Coburger was. 141 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: Arrested for the mers. What does that tell me? 142 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 2: They're going to tell the jury that Coburger's arrest was 143 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 2: premature and police were pressured because everyone was living in fear. 144 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: Let's see the rest. Let's see number seven. 145 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 2: Have you read or heard if Coburger said he was 146 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:03,839 Speaker 2: out driving alone. 147 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 1: The night of the murders? 148 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 2: Man, I'd come up with a different alibi if I could, 149 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 2: But sadly for them, they've already committed to this. They 150 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 2: can't change it now. Eight Have you read, seen, or 151 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 2: heard Coburger stopped one of the victims? What what is 152 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 2: that about? Stopped one of the victims. I think they 153 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 2: meant to say stalked one of the victims. Did they 154 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 2: actually say stopped and the court somehow transcribed it incorrectly. 155 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 2: And nine have you read, seen or heard if Coburger 156 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 2: had followed one of the victims on social media? And 157 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 2: you know what's interesting that may not even come into evidence. 158 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 2: Allegations that Coburger had been stalking and we think it 159 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 2: was Kelly gonsolvice not sure yet one of the victims 160 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 2: on social that may never come into evidence. Okay, back 161 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: to our all Star panel. To Sean O'Driscoll, Crime and 162 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 2: Courts correspondent for a newsweek Hey, Sean, I want you 163 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 2: to take a listen to the prosecutor angry. 164 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: This is him angry in court. Listen, honored. 165 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 7: There is absolutely no question but that those questions are 166 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 7: disseminating by means of communication, evidence extended to be presented, 167 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 7: evidence that could be or would be an invincible of trial. 168 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 8: And I will say there are a number of these 169 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 8: representations placed in the form of a question, but representations 170 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 8: of the fact that are not true or it would 171 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 8: not be offered to try. 172 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: Shawn and driscoll joining us from news Week. 173 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 2: They're basically leading questions, which is what prosecutor or the 174 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 2: defense would do if they had a witness from the 175 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: other side. On cross examination. You basically give your theory 176 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 2: of the case one sentence at a time, and at 177 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 2: the end you say, isn't that true. That's basically what 178 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,079 Speaker 2: these questions are. Now tell me the whole thing. How 179 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 2: did this go down? 180 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: Sean? 181 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 5: They hired a polling company for the defense to try 182 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 5: and show that there was too much bias against Brian 183 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 5: Coger Coberger in the local county. So then they called somebody. 184 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 5: That person got a bit suspicious as a call, recorded 185 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 5: a call, and then went to the DA's office to 186 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 5: make a complaint about it. And that's when they learned 187 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 5: about all of these questions. And as you said, they 188 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 5: are leading questions. I mean, a very definition of a 189 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 5: leading question is whether you can answer it but a 190 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 5: as or no question, all of which in this case 191 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 5: you can. I mean, it's it's you know, it's like, 192 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 5: are you aware that Nancy Grace's accused of stealing a 193 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 5: handbag and that we all now live in fear of her? 194 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 5: I mean, it's so changing the jury pool. As tutor 195 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 5: says that it's difficult to see how they can how 196 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 5: they can continue on with this because four hundred people 197 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 5: are now aware of all of these. 198 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 2: Questions, and as Tara Mallik pointed out a high profile lawyer, 199 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 2: they are in Idaho. 200 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: It's a very small jurisdiction. 201 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,119 Speaker 2: Hey, there's nothing wrong with being a small jurisdiction. 202 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: I grew up in rural Bibb County. We were not 203 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: even in a city, a very idyllic childhood. 204 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 2: So this city people keep saying, oh, it's small, like 205 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 2: there's something wrong with it. 206 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: But what that means for us is that. 207 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 2: This has a more profound effect on a smaller jury pool, 208 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 2: because four hundred people out of a jury pool of 209 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 2: three thousand is a lot that's hypothetical. Let me bring 210 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 2: in our other guests. I want to go first to 211 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 2: Chris McDonough. He is a director of the Cold Case Foundation, 212 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 2: former homicide detective with hundreds and hundreds of homicide investigations 213 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 2: under his belt. 214 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: I found him on the. 215 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 2: Interview room and what fascinated me with what he did 216 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 2: along with his wife, They were driving at about two 217 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 2: miles an hour. This is before I went to Moscow 218 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 2: and showing me everything I needed to know about the 219 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,479 Speaker 2: layout of where the murder scene was, the roads. 220 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: That led to it, They're very narrow. 221 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 2: There were so many evidentiary details in that drive along. 222 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 2: I had to meet this guy, and everything I learned 223 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 2: in that video turned out to be true. Chris McDonough 224 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 2: and Joe Scott Morgan, I want to talk to the 225 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,959 Speaker 2: two of you. Joe Scott, of course, is Professor Forensics 226 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 2: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. 227 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 2: He is a death investigator, and he is the host 228 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 2: of Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan podcast. 229 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 1: Now to Chris and Joe Scott. 230 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 2: First to you, Chris, we're talking about courtroom antics. 231 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: Talk about what. 232 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 2: This case is about, because as Liz and Jackie were 233 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 2: showing me photos and sound, we're kind of forgetting about 234 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 2: the four victims. 235 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: Look at them, Look at them. This is them in life. 236 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 2: Joe Scott's going to tell you about how they were 237 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 2: found in death. But isn't it true, Chris McDonough, that 238 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 2: so often the victims get lost in the sauce of 239 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 2: all the courtroom antics. I mean, I could just snap 240 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 2: the head off this defense attorney Ann Taylor if I 241 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: could get close enough to her, Chris, bring it all 242 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 2: home about these victims losing their lives. 243 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 9: Yeah, let's never forget that, right, Anci. I mean, here 244 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 9: you have four innocent college students with their whole lives 245 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 9: ahead of them, I mean, and then they're slaughtered in 246 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 9: their bedroom where they're sleeping. And that means generations now 247 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 9: have stopped instantly, no more, you know, grand babies, et cetera, 248 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 9: for the for the surviving family members as well. So 249 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 9: this is a huge, huge situation where the victims do 250 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 9: get lost sometimes through the courtroom. And I think it's 251 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 9: imperative that not only the community around there, but you know, 252 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 9: to your point, the world. Remember, they have to remember 253 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 9: that the victims here need justice and that justice needs 254 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 9: to come swiftly sometimes and these court romantics like this 255 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 9: sometimes you don't clog that wheel. 256 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 2: This guy is reportedly getting Vegan Mills his own TV, 257 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 2: control of the remote visits, you name it. I guarantee 258 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 2: you he's getting love letters. Think about that for a moment. 259 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 2: What is the judge talking about that he the judge 260 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: who is judge Judge Judges his last name, that he 261 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: is somehow violating the rights of Coburger, I'll tell you 262 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 2: in a nutshell. First of all, the Coburger judge slamming 263 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 2: the defense for quizzing local potential jurors, basically causing an 264 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 2: error in the trial yet to be and guaranteeing a 265 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 2: change of venue, which is what they want. But also 266 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 2: a very insidious, sneaky thing they did was that when 267 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 2: the judge wanted to stop the polling, they are now 268 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 2: claiming that it's violating Coburger's right to due process. 269 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: What is due process? 270 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 2: It means that basically, you're getting treated fairly under the 271 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 2: system that we have established in the US. 272 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: You get a right to a jury, you. 273 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 2: Get a right to a fair jury, you get a 274 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 2: right to a trial, you get a right to a lawyer, 275 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 2: even if you. 276 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: Cannot afford one. 277 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 2: There's a whole host of rights and pre and everyone 278 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 2: is to be afforded due process, a fair trial. They're 279 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 2: now claiming the judge has taken that away from Brian Coburger. 280 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 2: He's kicked back, having his vegan meal right now, lapping 281 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 2: his rear end off. Okay, I want to talk one 282 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 2: more moment before you go back into what's happening right now. 283 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 2: The anger that has been ignited in this courtroom. And 284 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 2: I want to go to Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, 285 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: Jacksonville State University. 286 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, A lot is being made of trial maneuvers. 287 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 2: I want to talk about how these four beautiful young 288 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 2: Idaho students were found. See we're seeing them in life. 289 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 2: That's not how they were found. That is not how, 290 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 2: according to the state, Coburger left them. 291 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: Explain. 292 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 10: Chris mentioned the term a little while ago of slaughter, 293 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 10: and I'd say that that kind of sums it up 294 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 10: what we're talking about here, because we're talking about multiple 295 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 10: stab wounds and not just stab wounds if we are 296 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 10: to believe what has been released relative to these defensive injuries, 297 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,919 Speaker 10: and also one injury in particular defensively where it sounds 298 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 10: as though perhaps the knife was actually drug across the 299 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 10: palm of one of the victim's hands, cutting all the 300 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 10: way down to the tendons. These were viable, young, lovely students, children, 301 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 10: somebody's children certainly that loved them very much, and now 302 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 10: they're absolutely gone. And Nancy, one other thing here that 303 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 10: we really have to plumb the depths of here. Aside 304 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 10: from all of these wranglings that they're talking about. This 305 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 10: is okay. If I were to rap this case one 306 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 10: to ten, ten being the most complex relative to the 307 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 10: forensics that are involved, this is going to be right 308 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 10: at about a ten because you're dealing with all of 309 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 10: these various facets that we're going to have to examine 310 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 10: and be examined in court. We just talked about them 311 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 10: outside the context of the courtroom. When you get into this, 312 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 10: when you really begin to dig in, there's going to 313 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 10: be a tremendous amount of blood evidence, not to mention 314 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 10: this DNA evidence that has been at the point of 315 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 10: the sphere. With all of this and the electronic evidence, 316 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 10: then something that has raised its head along the way 317 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 10: is this forensic genealogy that's also come into play. And 318 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 10: so the case is complex enough, and you're going to 319 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,239 Speaker 10: throw this into this mix, and you really, really if 320 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 10: you think the jury pool is tainted at this point, 321 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 10: my concern is that the continuity of the evidence is 322 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 10: going to be bespoiled in this as well, because this 323 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 10: narrative is going to be highly complex to be able 324 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 10: to lay out to a jury so that they understand it. 325 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 2: I have the experience that jurors understand really well exactly, 326 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 2: even complex scientific evidence that they've been given. Joe Scott, 327 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 2: you've been to me any many crime scenes, as have I. 328 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 2: I remember my first mass killing. There were three dead bodies. 329 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 2: Blood was literally running down a gutter because one of 330 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 2: the young boys that had been shot down on a 331 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 2: playground around eleven pm on a Sunday night had made 332 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,959 Speaker 2: a run for it and he got as far as 333 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 2: a chain link fence. He was jumping the fence when 334 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 2: he too was shot dead, and he hung on the 335 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: fence for an extended period of time, bleeding out into 336 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 2: the gutter below the fence. By the time I saw it, 337 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 2: blood was literally running down the. 338 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: Gutter, Liz, if I could please see. 339 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 2: These victims in life, because that crime scene, Joe Scott, 340 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 2: was horrific. 341 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: That's kind of crime scene that makes. 342 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 2: Rookies go out and throw out, throw up out side 343 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 2: four incredible, beautiful, vivacious look at them, students, their bodies 344 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 2: by that time cold ripped open, going into rigor. The 345 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 2: smell of decomp had probably already started. The sticky blood 346 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 2: was coagulating on sheets on the floor throughout the home. 347 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 2: And that feeling, that heavy feeling in the air where 348 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 2: a dead body is a murdered body is what greeted 349 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 2: police that Joe Scott Morgan is what we're talking about 350 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 2: as the defense does one cartwheel after the next to 351 00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 2: get the client off. 352 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 10: You're absolutely right, Nancy, And you know there's this idea 353 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 10: that the blood will tell and and what I meant 354 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 10: by that was that the deposition or the depositing of 355 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 10: the blood was in within the bedrooms and not to 356 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 10: mention anywhere else that we might not have an awareness 357 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 10: of at this point in time, that's going to be 358 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 10: a complex story to tell. And remember, we're already missing 359 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 10: the house. It's gone okay at this point, so we're 360 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 10: relying upon how the scene was documented. I'm sure that 361 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 10: they'll do a fantastic job presenting it, but we're absent 362 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 10: that already. So their blood, those images that we have 363 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 10: are going to be very important to tell the tale. 364 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 2: Now when we look at these questions the defense has 365 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 2: posed on phone calls to four hundred of the jury pool, 366 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 2: number nine says, have you read, seen or heard? 367 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: Brian Coberger had. 368 00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 2: Followed followed one of the victims on social media. Well 369 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 2: that tells me right there, Tara Malik joining me. High 370 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 2: profile lawyer at Smith and Malick in Idaho. That tells 371 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 2: me that if that evidence does come in that Coburger 372 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 2: had been trying to hook up with one of the 373 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 2: victims or follow them or stalk them, as it has 374 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 2: been stated, they're going to try to argue he just 375 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 2: followed one of them innocently, So that tells me where 376 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 2: they're going. 377 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 6: With that potentially, I mean, I think that they're trying 378 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 6: to or they may try and explain away if there 379 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 6: is some evidence that Coberger either came in contact or 380 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,479 Speaker 6: was familiar with these folks and put it, as you mentioned, 381 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 6: an innocent. 382 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 1: Spin on it. 383 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 6: You know, there certainly seems to be, from what we 384 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 6: know right now, a lot of evidence to suggest that 385 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 6: this was a very calculated crime and that he may 386 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 6: have done some recent search ahead of time before it 387 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 6: was actually committed, familiarity with the location with perhaps at 388 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 6: least one of the individuals. So it certainly gives us 389 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 6: some hints as to what the defense maybe trying to 390 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 6: do or set up for. Although you know, Anne Taylor 391 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 6: did say in court that she did not draft the 392 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 6: particular questions, she did approve the topics that were used 393 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 6: by the polster in formulating the questions themselves. 394 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 2: Tara, did you just say that the defense lawyer ant Taylor, 395 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 2: she didn't write the questions, she just approved them. 396 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: Did I hear that. 397 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 6: That's correct from what her statements were or her arguments 398 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 6: were in court to judge. Judge, she indicated that she 399 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 6: had not actually written the questions that were used in 400 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 6: the poll, but that she had approved the topics. She 401 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 6: also indicated that the polster was not given any facts 402 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 6: from her team or any evidence from her team prior 403 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 6: to putting those questions together. 404 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: I got it, Tara. 405 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 2: Yes, I hear your defense of Anne Taylor, and I'm 406 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 2: sure she appreciates it. I think that's a line of 407 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 2: BS I really do to doctor Leslie Dobson joining US 408 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 2: forensic psychologists at doctor Leslie Doobson dot com. 409 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: You say potato, I say potato. So you can't have 410 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: it both ways. 411 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 2: Although Tara Malok, that's why she went so many cases? 412 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 2: Is giving it a valiant try to defend the. 413 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 1: Defense attorney here. 414 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 2: You can't say the pollsters who actually made these phone 415 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 2: calls at the behest of the defense, they knew nothing 416 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 2: about the case. You can't say that, and the defense 417 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 2: lawyer didn't make up these questions. Okay, somebody directed these questions. 418 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 2: And if the Polster knew nothing about the case, then 419 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 2: how did they come up. 420 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: With the questions? 421 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 2: Bottom line, the defense approved these questions. It would be 422 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 2: a cold eight and hl that they use money for 423 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 2: a Polster and they don't approve of the questions. That 424 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 2: would be like me sending you doctor Leslie for a 425 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 2: polygraph and I don't come up with or help create 426 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 2: the questions for the polly. That's not happening. 427 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: The polygrapher doesn't know what to ask. 428 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 2: I could tell him or her what to ask and 429 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 2: then they put it in the right format. 430 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: So you can't have it both ways. 431 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 2: Polster had no idea about the case and we didn't 432 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 2: write those questions. Bis, how does she even say that 433 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 2: in front of the judge? Does she think he's an 434 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 2: idiot because he's not. 435 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 11: Yes, I read that a social psychologist was hired to 436 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 11: put the questions together. So the information was gained through 437 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 11: what he claimed was in the media and readily available. 438 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 2: Okay, question to you, doctor Leslie Dobson. So the defense 439 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 2: hires Upholster to call the locals and ask them questions 440 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 2: about the facts. Of the case prior to jury sole 441 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 2: as you have heard the questions today, they touch on 442 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 2: very significant parts of the case, critical parts of the case. 443 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: So do you. 444 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 2: Really believe the defense didn't know what the questions were 445 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 2: going to be after they paid for a poll start. 446 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: I don't believe it. 447 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 6: No. 448 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 11: Having worked with many, many attorneys and criminal and civil law, 449 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 11: I think the game is on full. 450 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: Display right now. 451 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 2: Following up with Chris McDonough, who has been to the 452 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 2: crime scene, has analyzed the crime scene, and has handled 453 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 2: well over three hundred homicide investigations. 454 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 9: Jump in Chris, you know, and Nancy, I think one 455 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 9: of the things that you've pointed out here is you 456 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 9: know there are four hundred potential witnesses. Remember the defense 457 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 9: clicked out in one of their emotions, Well, how would 458 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 9: they know there are four hundred potential witnesses when, of 459 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 9: course you've got now four hundred people that have been 460 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 9: polled in the community. I think that's an interesting correlation 461 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 9: that would need some clarity, and I'm concerned that the 462 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 9: prosecution kind of fell for it by actually reading those 463 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 9: questions in open court, and why the judge didn't pull 464 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 9: them into work, you know, into in camera hearing to 465 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,160 Speaker 9: where the public. Now everybody knows about these nine questions. 466 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 2: Around the world, right, Well, are you seriously trying to 467 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 2: say with a straight face, Chris mcdonna, that anybody watching 468 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,400 Speaker 2: this coverage hasn't already heard about the Coburger case. 469 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 9: No, not at all. In fact, what I'm saying is 470 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 9: these nine questions, which are being argued, you know, by 471 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 9: both the prosecution and the defense, are now known to everybody. 472 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 5: That's what I'm saying. 473 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 9: And that in of itself, you know, kind of goes 474 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 9: against the purpose of the hearing. 475 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 2: So the defense is sticking to the rigorous guidelines of 476 00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 2: the law and deadlines and limitations when it suits them. 477 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 2: But now are caught red handed poisoning the jury pool 478 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 2: and a small jurisdiction. 479 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: You bring in four hundred people. 480 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 2: And they've all been quizzed already about the case by 481 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 2: the defense. Polster guarantee you that is going to be 482 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,479 Speaker 2: cause for a change a venue. 483 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: Why Why is that significant? Tara Malick? 484 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 2: It's significant because when you change a venue, it's much 485 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 2: harder on the state it is. 486 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 6: I mean, we're talking about moving witnesses to maybe local 487 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 6: to that community, to a different location, to testify, maybe 488 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 6: even for multiple days. So it does put the burden 489 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 6: on the state, puts on the burden on the defense 490 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 6: as well, but they don't have to put on a 491 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 6: defense they don't have if they don't want to, and 492 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 6: they certainly don't have to. 493 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: Put on witnesses if they don't want to. 494 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 6: The burden is entirely on the state. Now, this defense 495 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 6: has taken a step of saying that we do have 496 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 6: an alibi, which puts the burden on them to come 497 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 6: up with that alibi. But yeah, it is going to 498 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 6: add some complications here that that didn't already exist. Yeah, 499 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 6: and I would note too, you know, for the change 500 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 6: of venue, it's just pre trial publicity alone is not 501 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 6: enough to change venue in a particular case like that's 502 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 6: certainly not enough. 503 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 2: To Shawn and driscoll joining us for Newsweek, Sean talking 504 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 2: about an alibi, and the defense of course has not 505 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 2: handed over the alibi. 506 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 6: Yet. 507 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 2: They've got to hand over an alibi because a state 508 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 2: has a right to question witnesses or evidence that support 509 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 2: that alibi, be it surveillance video, be it the nav 510 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 2: system in Cyberger's launch. The state has a right to 511 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 2: question that alibi. Did you hear what was said that 512 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 2: they may bring on corroboration for the alibi that he 513 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 2: is driving around at three o'clock, four o'clock, five o'clock 514 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 2: in the morning. And hey, Sean, while I've got you, 515 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 2: this is a real clue as to where they're headed. 516 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 2: With these nine questions they sent to all the too 517 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 2: potential jurrs about the car. They asked specifically whether the 518 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: potential jurr has found out or heard about the type 519 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 2: same type of car seen in the neighborhood where the 520 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 2: murders occurred. So they're basically tipping us off that the 521 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 2: defense is going to be, yeah, there was a white Lantra, 522 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 2: but it wasn't him. 523 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 8: Right. 524 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 5: In fact, part and the prosecution case in their own 525 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 5: documentative filing court is that they have an FBI expert 526 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 5: who's not only an expert on models of cars, but 527 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 5: even regional variations within those models of cars, who then 528 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 5: linked this type of car somewhere between twenty eleven twenty fourteen, 529 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 5: then expanded that range slightly by looking at the CCTV 530 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 5: of slightly slight parts of the car. So I think 531 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 5: what the defense they're really trying to say is, yeah, okay, 532 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 5: you've got us his car was around, you have it 533 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 5: on CCTV, that type of model of car. But his 534 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 5: hobby is to drive around in the middle of the 535 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 5: night in this particular car, which is actually common purpose 536 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 5: between defense and prosecution in this case. 537 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 2: Okay, hold on, Seana Drisco, Crime and Courts correspondent at Knewswick, 538 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 2: let me ask you a quick question regarding that. Can 539 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,719 Speaker 2: you have it both ways? Can you claim as they 540 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 2: apparently are going to do, as evidenced by this question, 541 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 2: have you heard the same type of car was spotted 542 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 2: in the area, clearly tipping me off that they're gonna argue, Yeah, 543 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 2: there was a white Lantra, but it wasn't his. 544 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: Do you have the license plate? 545 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 2: No, In fact, it could be an entirely different year, 546 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 2: make or model. Okay, they're going to argue it wasn't 547 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 2: his car, But is that consistent with the alibi? 548 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, he was out driving around. 549 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 2: At three or four o'clock that night in the morning, 550 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 2: So is it him driving by there by the murder 551 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 2: scene or is it not his car? 552 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: To me, that's inconsistent. 553 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 2: But I see them bit by bit Sean trying to 554 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 2: dismantle the state's case That's what this is to them. 555 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: They're taking each. 556 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 2: Piece of strong evidence and trying to dismantle it piece 557 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 2: of evidence. His car was spotted at the scene Hello, 558 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 2: at three o'clock in the morning, and then he went 559 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 2: back by later that day. They're going to claim that 560 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 2: looked like his car, but it wasn't his car. 561 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: And by the way, he often drives. 562 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 2: Around late at night all along, which screams to me, 563 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 2: freaky dad, Right, I. 564 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 5: Mean, you have to really wonder. You have to take 565 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,399 Speaker 5: Durrs as normal people like all of us who are wondering, okay, 566 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 5: where was he? Well, he was driving around in the 567 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 5: same type of model of car that night. And also 568 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 5: how does this then play into jury selection? If the jury, 569 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 5: if the jurors are now four hundred of them are 570 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 5: have been told all of this, what does what does 571 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 5: the defense now know about those four hundred people that 572 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,320 Speaker 5: hasn't been disclosed yet. You know what have they written 573 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 5: down their names? Did they know their addresses? When they're 574 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 5: when it comes to jury selection, that they now know 575 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 5: what all of those juror potential jurors now know about 576 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 5: this model of car, about what they know about the 577 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 5: DNA evidence and all sorts of. 578 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 2: Information to you just got morgand death investigator. You've been 579 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:58,320 Speaker 2: on so many thousands of homicide and death sayings. 580 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: The longer e way to go to trial, and I've 581 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: been there. 582 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 2: One of the first cases I had to try, not 583 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 2: the first, but one of the first, was to retry 584 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 2: a case that had been tried when I was back 585 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,720 Speaker 2: in law school. And I've told you this, Joe Scott. 586 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 2: When I went into the evidence room to get the evidence, 587 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 2: there was one X ray I didn't even know what 588 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 2: it was or who it went to, what it had 589 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 2: to do with the case, and a baseball cat that said, 590 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 2: kiss my bass. That was all the evidence we could 591 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 2: find from the first trial. I'm serious, And I had 592 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 2: to cobble together a case. As time goes on, memories dim, 593 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 2: you lose evidence, witnesses actually die, they had died in 594 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 2: those fourteen years before I had to retry that case. 595 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: So that's the problem with the delay. 596 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 2: But what about what it does to the victims' families? 597 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: Every day no justice. 598 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,320 Speaker 10: It grinds on and on and on. And I still 599 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 10: have a vivid memory of hearing this we had gotten 600 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 10: back from church and that particular and when this case dropped. 601 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 10: And now even to this point, as much as I've 602 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 10: covered this case with you, Nancy, some of the details 603 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 10: are beginning to fade for me. How much more so 604 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 10: because you know we do this regularly, but you know 605 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 10: all of the principles. And here's here's one other interesting 606 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 10: little aside here. This is a university environment, Nancy, And 607 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 10: we all know what happens at university environment. In university environments, 608 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 10: people move on with their lives. And what I mean 609 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 10: by that is you have kids that may have been 610 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 10: witnesses at that particular time, their life has gone on. 611 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 10: As a matter of fact, many of them may have graduated. 612 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 10: They're going to have to be coming back to this environment. 613 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 10: The landscape has changed. We no longer have a home 614 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 10: to recall what happened that particular night. So everything is 615 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 10: going to rest upon what is contained within that evidence 616 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 10: room that you peripherally mentioned just a second ago. And 617 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 10: you know that I can tell you hasn't forgotten the 618 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 10: people that walked into that structure and they saw that 619 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,879 Speaker 10: blood bath, and they saw what had happened, and it's 620 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 10: just as real to them right now as it was 621 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 10: that day. 622 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 2: We wait as justice enfolds, and now we stop to 623 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 2: remember American Hero Sergeant Mark McIntyre. 624 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 1: Just fifty five. 625 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 2: McIntyre shot and killed in the line of duty. Griffin Georgia, 626 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 2: a proud Vet of the US Army, dedicated member of 627 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 2: the community, leaving behind daughter kimber Son Parker Fonce Karen 628 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 2: and her sons American Hero Sergeant Mark McIntyre. Nancy Gray 629 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:48,240 Speaker 2: signing off goodbye friend.