1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Do you know another parent or expecting parent. Are you 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: wondering what can I give them as a gift. Don't 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: give them another onesie. Don't give them a plastic toy 4 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,319 Speaker 1: or god forbid, a toy gun that's just going to 5 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: end up in the garage. Give them something that matters, 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: and what matters the most is protecting their child. What 7 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 1: do you love most in the world, your children? What 8 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: will you do to protect them anything. I sat down 9 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: with these smartest people I know in the world on 10 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: matters of child's safety, finding missing children, fighting back against predators, 11 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: and what I learned is so important, powerful and information 12 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: so critical. I want you to have it. I want 13 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 1: them to have it. Go to crimestops here dot com 14 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: for a five part series with action information that you 15 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: can use to change your life and protect your child. 16 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: Give that as a gift, not another onesie. Find out 17 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: how to protect your child when you're out at the 18 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: mall or the store, or the grocery, in the parking 19 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: lot at home. Find out about protection regarding babysitters, in daycare, 20 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 1: even on line. I'd rather have that any day of 21 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: the week than a plastic toy or god forbid, a 22 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: toy gun. Join Justice Nation, go to Crime stops here 23 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: dot com Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Hundreds of thousands 24 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: of people are calling for the pardon of a convicted 25 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: killer after the Netflix series Making a Murderer exposed possible 26 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:42,479 Speaker 1: flaws in the case that put him behind bars. If 27 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,759 Speaker 1: we have Stephen Avery, and Making a Murderer tells the story. 28 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,559 Speaker 1: If Stephen Avery, he's the Wisconsin man who served eighteen 29 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: years in prison for rape before being exonerated in two 30 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: thousand and three, we the jury find the defendant guilty 31 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: of only to find himself in prison again on a 32 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: murder conviction in two thousand and seven, Allude how to 33 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: handle it. Many viewers concluded Avery was framed by authorities 34 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: who lied and planted evidence. Stephen Avery is right where 35 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: he needs to be, in prison. I think he was innocent. 36 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: Is innocent? Okay, I'm quite sure why people believe Stephen 37 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: Avery is innocent, other than watching a Netflix special and 38 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 1: actually believing it. In the last hours, bombshell documents filed 39 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: insisting Avery is innocent? Will he get a new trial? 40 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: But this is what I know. Stephen Avery's own family 41 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: and friends, own blood relatives and friends. Because I questioned them. 42 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 1: Myself saw him the night photographer Teresa Hallback was murdered 43 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: and her remains burned in Stephen Avery's back yard, in 44 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: his fire pit where he worked at its auto salvage place. 45 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: They saw his own blood relatives and friends saw him 46 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: stirring the fire into the night, the night that Teresa 47 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: Halback was murdered, and police find her teeth and the 48 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: studs of her Daisy fluintest blue jeans she was seen 49 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 1: wearing the last time she was seen alive in his 50 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: fire pit. It's not police saying he was out there 51 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: stirring up her bones until they burned away. It wasn't 52 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: an investigator or somebody want to frame him. It was 53 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: his blood relatives and friends that saw him stirring her 54 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: remains in his fire pit in the back yard. Not 55 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: only that he lied right to my face about that night. 56 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: Why lie about it if he's telling the truth. Listened 57 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: to what he told me on hl N, Steve, and 58 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: I understand at Teresa came to your auto salvage lot 59 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: to take photos for the auto trade or correct, yes, 60 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: she did. She came down by me. Okay, and Stephen, 61 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: is my understanding that also you say that you saw 62 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: her car leave, Yes, I did, about what time between 63 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: she was there between two and two thirty two thirty 64 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: in the afternoon. Okay, Stephen, how is it that her 65 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: car could get all the way back in this pit 66 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: area where there is uh well, I believe we're showing 67 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 1: it right now. I mean, wouldn't you have to pass 68 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: back by the office again? Well on the outskirts up 69 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: the office ottawise back by me or back by Dan's 70 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: pitt in the corner is all open. It's all open 71 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: so you can drive in there, mister Avery. Did you 72 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 1: see anyone else come in, anyone unusual that didn't belong there? Well, 73 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: Dursday night, me and my brother how to go TERMINI 74 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: to pick up some more with the five bed, and 75 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,679 Speaker 1: I've seen day lights backed by me. Wasn't supposed to be. Yeah, 76 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: we turned around and we went back there. Talcu parked 77 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: on the side and I took the flashlight out of flatbed. Okay, 78 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: And I looked around by me and behind me, but 79 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: I didn't see that. He told me to my face. 80 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: Teresa was there there at his auto salvage pit the 81 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 1: day she goes missing. Around two o'clock, he concealed his 82 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: identity with Star sixty seven to call her twice to 83 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: get her to come over, and then called her after 84 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: he kills her, letting his identity show up on the 85 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: phone records, going hey, you never showed up what happened? 86 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: But then fast forward he tells me she came, So 87 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: what's the cover up about? I'm Nancy Greece. This is 88 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: crime Stories. Thank you for being with us, with me 89 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: right now. In addition to doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, 90 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,799 Speaker 1: forensic expert Joe Scott Morgan, North Carolina family and divorced 91 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: lawyer Kathleen Murphy with me now is retired reporter from 92 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 1: the Appleton Post Crescent and the Gannette, Wisconsin Newspapers, John 93 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: Lee John, I am still, you know, flummixed that people 94 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: actually believe Stephen Avery did not kill twenty seven year 95 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: old Teresa Halback. Hallback had gone to his auto salvage 96 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: business before, and she said he came to the door 97 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: dressed in nothing but a towel and made passes at 98 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: her and totally creeped her out. In fact, the day 99 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: she went back, it's for like a penny pincher where 100 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: you go take a picture of the vehicle, and you 101 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: sell it. It's like a newspaper, a penny pincher. That's 102 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: you find him in the front of grocery stores, in 103 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: those racks. She said she did not want to go 104 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: back because he creeped her out, but she needed the job, 105 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: so she went back. It says after he had come 106 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: to the door practically naked and made passes at her, 107 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: and she said she was going to go in and 108 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: get the picture and get out as fast as she could. 109 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: Not only that, the fact that her teeth and her 110 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: the studs off of her blue jeans were found in 111 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: his fire pit, that he had been stirring all night long, 112 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: her car parked at the edge of his salvage lot, 113 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: covered up with limbs and other pieces of cars. His 114 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: DNA his DNA inside her car, and I believe it 115 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: was sweat DNA. Can just see him hunched over the 116 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: steering wheel after he killed her, trying to hide her 117 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: car and getting sweat DNA in the car. Also, we 118 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: know that he would star sixty seven his number, block 119 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: his number, and call her repeatedly before she got there, 120 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: asking what are you going to be here, calling over 121 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: and over, and then after she had gone there, he 122 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: called her. If you hear what he told me on 123 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: HLN that she left round two thirty. He called her 124 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: after that saying where are you? Why haven't you shown up? 125 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: Clearly that's alive. Why would he call her the same 126 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: day after he tells me she's already left and leave 127 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: messages saying, hey, where are you? Aren't you going to 128 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: show up? What about that? You know it's getting to 129 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: the point, and you can see it in other areas 130 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: where people believe what they want to believe. They don't 131 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: look at facts. They don't look at a trial transcript, 132 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 1: they don't look at the twenty months of court hearings 133 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: we had leading up to trials. They believe what I 134 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: call the Avery pr Firm and made this documentary. They 135 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: believe stuff that Kathleen Zeller, Avery's current attorney is throwing out. 136 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: And basically she's just throwing a lot of stuff on 137 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: the wall and seeing what's I can't read a thousand 138 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: page filing from her because I read one or two sentences, 139 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: and I've got ten questions and ten ways to reject that. 140 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: If people look at a few of the examples in 141 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 1: the book that prosecutor ken Kratz wrote, and now if 142 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: they look at some of the facts mentioned on the 143 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: editing and comparing tryout transcripts to the mocumentary in the 144 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 1: civil suit that Andy Colburn filed this week. It just 145 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: shows to creative editing and propaganda that's in making a murder. 146 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: But you just can't argue with people about it when 147 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: they don't have an open mind and they won't look 148 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: at facts. I don't know what you can do. Well, 149 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, I want to follow up 150 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 1: on what you just said, John Lay joining me. You 151 00:09:54,160 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: retired from Ganette Wisconsin Newspapers, a retired Wisconsin active has 152 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: just sued Netflix over in their Stephen Avery making a murderer, 153 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: portraying him the detective as a corrupt police officer who 154 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: planted evidence to frame an innocent man. Now, remember when 155 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: you sue somebody for defamation, being oral or written, that's 156 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 1: libel or slander. You have you yourself have to take 157 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: can take the stand. You can call them to the 158 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: stand if you believe that they have defamed you too. 159 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: John Lee, reporter who covered this at the time, John Lee, 160 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,199 Speaker 1: what is he? The former man into wat County Sheriff's 161 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: detective Andy Colburn, claiming ah he's claiming that he was libel. 162 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: His reputation was ruined because of Elijah, the inaccurate, inaccurate 163 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: portrayal of him and making a murderer. Here's a guy 164 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 1: when before this, before making a murderer came out? Google 165 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: is all name in it? Two entries come up. Um, 166 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: the last time you googled it before the lawsuit was filed, 167 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: something like one point eight million references to him came out. 168 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: She's gonna revisit one thing when you're in the bedroom 169 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: and didn't and you cut her throat. Previously you said 170 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: that you even thought she was alive. Is that still 171 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: your thought on that? And why was that? Because she 172 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: was breathing a little bit, she was like trying to 173 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: not trying to breathe this. How does she going, I'm 174 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 1: screaming screaming lost? She was screaming a lot? Or wasn't 175 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: she was when you cut her throat? Was she screaming 176 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: when you cut her throat? Because when you're screaming a lot, 177 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 1: you like you're breathings off? R home, explain that a 178 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:54,839 Speaker 1: little bit. You said she was screaming off. When was 179 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: she screaming off like while you were doing it? After 180 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: you did before he did it before when you cut 181 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: her throne? What was she doing if anything like screaming 182 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: for help and crying? I want to I want to 183 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: get that straight. She was screaming for help and crying 184 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: when you cut her throne? Yeah, when did Steven choker 185 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: or strangler like a little bit after Well, let's let's 186 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: just go back a little bit, Okay, tell us what 187 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: exactly happened to her? What order had happened? He said, 188 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: there were basically three things prior to you guys shooting her. 189 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 1: Explain those in the order that had happened. Starting less, 190 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: Well we got in the role. Yeah, what what you 191 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: guys did to her? It's sex with her? Okay? Then 192 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: he stabbed her? And who stabbed her? He did? Who's 193 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: here Stephen? Okay? And then what and co s felt? Okay? 194 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: And he chalked toncuff her here? Okay? So he chalked 195 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: her after you cut her throat. You know, I was 196 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 1: just sitting here listening to Brendan Dassy, that's Stephen Avery's nephew, 197 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: describe what was done to twenty seven year old photographer 198 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 1: Teresa Hallback. And I had the same reaction I often 199 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: did in court as I listened to or read murder confessions, 200 00:13:54,360 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: and I found myself physically turned away from this microphone. 201 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: I'm sitting in a swivel chair, turned away with my 202 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: hand over my eyes because I just could hardly stand 203 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: to hear it. But it's true. And I remember sitting 204 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: in court where I couldn't turn away or put my 205 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: hands over my eyes. I had to sit there and 206 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: stoically look forward or look at the jury as this 207 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: was coming into evidence. And I got to ask you, 208 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy, you probably tried as many cases as I have, 209 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: or investigated as many during your practice. When you hear 210 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: a statement like that, as I say, rich in detail, 211 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: that was true. Nobody was putting those words in Brenda 212 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: Dascy's mouth. That is what happened. He's too simple minded 213 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: to make up or fabricate a story of that nature 214 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: and going through the timeline the way he did. This 215 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: girl was lured to Stephen Avery's home. She was brutally 216 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: raped by chained to a bed, brutally raped by two men, 217 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: her hair chopped off with a knife. She was stabbed 218 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,359 Speaker 1: her as she screamed for help. Her throat was slashed. 219 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: She was strangled and ultimately shot with a gun by 220 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: Stephen Avery. The bullet with her brain matter, her DNA 221 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: on It was found in Stephen Avery's garage. And to 222 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: believe that the police framed Avery, you would have to 223 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: believe that they killed Teresa Halback. Let's follow through. The 224 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: defense claimed that he was framed. When people come up 225 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: with these claims, I say, Okay, let's let's go with it. 226 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: Let's explore it, let's follow it through. So you would 227 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: have to believe police kidnapped and murdered Teresa Hallback, shot 228 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:10,359 Speaker 1: her in the head, got the bullet, fragment, the fragment 229 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: hit it in his garage, got his sweat, DNA placed 230 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: it dropped, It not smeared. It's dropped in her car. Okay, dropped, 231 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: That's very important. A blood drop can be blood evidence 232 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: can be a drop. It can be blowback. It can 233 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: be spatter from a gunshot wound. It can be a 234 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: transfer where somebody's sweater is bloody and they lean up 235 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: against the door and you see a transfer mark. It 236 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: can be a footprint, a bloody fingerprint. It can be 237 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: a smear. It can be where you clean it up 238 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: on the floor. It's very important that the DNA in 239 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: this case was not smeared or placed or rubbed in 240 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: in any way his Stephen Avery DNA was in her car, 241 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: her car, aren't I guess the police their theory is 242 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: he had the car on his lot and then had 243 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: put her body in a burn pit and had him. 244 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: According to his relatives, stir her remains all night long 245 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 1: until they disintegrate it. If you follow through their theory, 246 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: that's what you must believe. What do you make of 247 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: Brendan Dacy's confession, Nancy? Despite Brendan Dacy's confession that being 248 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: put aside, your analysis just now and the way that 249 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: you presented it with the statement that the police would 250 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: have had to have killed this woman is brilliant and 251 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: it needs to be replayed for the American public because 252 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: last night my husband asked me, because he and his 253 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: firefighter buddies are watching him making a murderer. Two do 254 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: you think Stephen Avery did it? And I just wrote 255 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:04,360 Speaker 1: back an icon of a crying happy like duff as 256 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: I wish I could have said it exactly like you 257 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: said it. And I'm gonna make him listen to your 258 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 1: analysis because it's brilliant and it says it all. I'm 259 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: just so hurt about it, Kathleen. I'm so hurt, and 260 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: I'll tell you why I'm hurt. To doctor Daniel Bober, 261 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 1: we need to shrink pronto. And you're a forensic psychiatrist, 262 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: which means you went to medical school. You're a medical doctor, 263 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: and then you pursued another expertise in psychiatry, Doctor Bober, 264 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: these cases are personal to me, I guess because I'm 265 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,360 Speaker 1: a tangential crime victim of murder. You know my fiancee 266 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: was murdered before our wedding. When I hear this, okay, 267 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: everybody says, Brenda Dassy had such a low IQ, actually 268 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: had a normal to low IQ and had gone through 269 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: school and was passing school. Blah blah. But let's just 270 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: take him out of the scenario. I'm not arguing about Dascy. 271 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 1: I'm arguing about Avery. When you hear this statement by Dassy, 272 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: you know he couldn't make that up. It was too detailed. 273 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: It was too no pausing, no thinking about wow, what 274 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 1: can I say? He admitted what he did and what 275 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: Stephen Avery did. And one of these interviews his mom 276 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: was sitting in the next room that she allowed the 277 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 1: interview to take place with detectives, and when people claim 278 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: Avery is not guilty, it's just such an affront to 279 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: crime victims, Doctor Boberg. It's just just so such an 280 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: affront to Halbeck's family after what they've been through. Yes, Nancy, 281 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: you know, I can totally agree with you. It really 282 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 1: offends my sensibilities. I don't think he's making it up, 283 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: but I think the whole thing is a sham in 284 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: this Netflix show is absolute nonsense. So I totally agree 285 00:19:55,280 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: with you. Hi, Nancy Grace here, have you ever Googled yourself, 286 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: your neighbors, somebody at work, a crush? Fifty seven percent 287 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: of Americans admitt keeping an eye on their own online reputation. 288 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 1: Forty six admit to using the Internet to look up 289 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: somebody from their past. But Google and Facebook the tip 290 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: of the iceberg when it comes to finding personal information. 291 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: There's an innovative new website called Truthfinder. It's now revealing 292 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: the full scoop on millions of Americans. Truthfinder can search 293 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 1: through hundreds of millions of public records in a matter 294 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:41,880 Speaker 1: of minutes. 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The lawsuit claims 302 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: the Making a Murderer series portrays Colburn as a corrupt 303 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 1: officer who framed an innocent man by planting evidence. He 304 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 1: said that she was taking some pictures of a van. 305 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: Stephen Avery and his nephew, Brennan Dacy were convicted of 306 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: Hallbacks murder in two thousand and seven, but Avery has 307 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: been wrongly convicted in the past of sexually assaulting a 308 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: different woman in nineteen eighty five. Colburn's lawsuit says the 309 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: makers of the documentary spliced reaction shots of Colburn appearing 310 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: nervous and apprehensive during trial I believe that, and heavily 311 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: edited Colburn's testimony to making viewers think he planted evidence 312 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 1: inside haulbox car and in Avery's bedroom. The complaint also 313 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: says Making a Murderer fail to release significant facts of 314 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: the trial like Avery's DNA being located on hullbox hoodlatch, 315 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: Avery's differing statements, and a bullet with hullbox DNA linked 316 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: to a firearm hung on Avery's wall. You're hearing Wbay 317 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: reporter Sharon Mgenda reporting on a blockbuster headline in the 318 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: Stephen Avery making a murderer case. A Wisconsin detective has 319 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: just sued Netflix over portraying him as a corrupt officer 320 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,919 Speaker 1: who planned evidence. And I gotta tell you back to 321 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott, Morgan forensics expert, I want to go through 322 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: the forensics with you. But Kathleen Murphy, when you file 323 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: a defamation lawsuit saying somebody else is lying about you, 324 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: you darn well better be telling the truth yourself, because 325 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 1: you're gonna get dragged through the mud if you're lying. 326 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: So he's putting himself on the hot seat to sue Netflix, 327 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: and to me, that speaks volumes. If he's willing to 328 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: go through this and claim they lied about me, it's 329 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: big volumes that he has an attorney that will pursue 330 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: that type of lawsuit. You're right, it better be well planned, 331 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 1: and it is, and it better be correct. To Joseph Scott, Morgan, 332 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: forensics expert, Professor Forensics, jacksonvill State University and author of 333 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Jo Scott, I want 334 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 1: to go through the forensics regarding Stephen Avery's guilt. What 335 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: about the DNA on the hood latch of Teresa Hallback's vehicle. 336 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, you know, the origins of this DNA. DNA 337 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: is very specific to individuals as your audience, who is, 338 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: you know, highly educated as a result of everything they 339 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: hear us talk about knows it's it's individualization. Uh you know, 340 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: how did it arrive at that point? And that's that's 341 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: the one thing that the producers of the show and 342 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: all the other peripherals that are involved in this, they 343 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: cannot overcome the science in this particular case. Uh, you know, 344 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: his DNA on the hood latch. I think that there 345 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: are a total of let's see, how many was it. 346 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 1: I think it was like six different individual dallops of 347 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,479 Speaker 1: blood that are linked back to him that are found. 348 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: You can't escape this. The numbers are astronomical when it 349 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: comes to matching him to his specific DNA strand Nancy. 350 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 1: As it is shown on the Netflix documentary, this retired 351 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: detective Colburn asked dispatch on a recorded call to run 352 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: a license plate number which comes back to belonging to Haulback, 353 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 1: who had already been identified as a missing person at 354 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 1: that point, and Colburn gets the info, he immediately can 355 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: be heard saying ninety nine Toyota. That's the year and 356 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: make of the car belonging to Hallback found on the property. 357 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 1: Now in the film, Stephen Avery's lawyer, Dean String asked 358 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: Colburn about the call while he's on the stand, and 359 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 1: he implies the way he responded made it seem as 360 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: though he was looking at Hallback's car, which was it 361 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: said to have been discovered until two days after the call, 362 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: So it makes they're pretending that he had Teresa's car 363 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 1: at the time they were calling in. I mean, there's 364 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 1: just so much innu window, so much suggestion as to 365 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: the truth. With me is go ahead, jump yeah, Nancy, 366 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you one other big piece to this 367 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: that everybody looks at in this case. And they talk 368 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: about motivations for the police, I don't I don't know 369 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: that the world at large understands how much orchestration would 370 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: have to be involved in this. And it comes back 371 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: to one simple fact, they talked about that Avery, if 372 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: people will remember, was exonerated as being falsely charged and 373 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 1: imprisoned for this other case that he was involved in 374 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: that was ghastly in and of itself, And they talked about, well, 375 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: the police were motivated as a result of him being 376 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: let out. Let's take a look at the flip side 377 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: of that. Maybe, just maybe, Stephen Avery is a predator 378 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 1: by nature, that this is a continuation of the behaviors 379 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 1: that he's been engaged in for a protracted period of 380 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: tom throughout his life. So if you're gonna say one thing, 381 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,479 Speaker 1: you have to look at the other side as well. 382 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: With me is John Lee, retired reporter from the Alpham 383 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: Post Crescent and the Ghanette, Wisconsin newspapers. John Lee, what 384 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 1: do you make of it? He hit it right on 385 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 1: the head. These were guys. These are small town cops 386 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: that were portrayed as being bumbling idiots and not good 387 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: enough to do a major investigation, and kirkod and everything else. 388 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: All of a sudden, it flips fops and they become 389 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: geniuses on setting up this guy. People that haven't read transcripts, 390 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: people that haven't believed transcripts. All of a sudden believed 391 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:04,479 Speaker 1: the crap that Avery's attorney is putting out. Look at 392 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: his background, burning a cat, throwing a live cat in 393 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: the fire, attempted sexual assault of a neighbor who happened 394 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: to be the wife of a deputy, care off, the 395 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: alleged rape of a young relative, which the Brown County 396 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: District Attorney had enough evidence to proceed with but didn't 397 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: want to in the middle of this trial, and because 398 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: the victim was reluctant. This is not an isolated incident. 399 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: Look at things that were not allowed to be brought 400 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 1: into to the jury, like the sketch of the torture 401 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 1: chamber that Avery drew while he was in prison, as 402 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: well as other things, and how to clean for ins 403 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: and evidence excusally. What did you say, John Lee about 404 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: a sketch he drew in prisoner There, it's in the 405 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: court record. It was one of the items not allowed 406 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 1: in trial by Judge Willis. I think it's referenced in 407 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,400 Speaker 1: Ken Kratch's book, and I know it's that we did 408 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: stories on it in the pre trial hearings. But they 409 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 1: had a pencil sketch that Avery drew and was provided 410 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: by another prisoner in prison when he was serving as 411 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: a teat year term. That showed how we planned to 412 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: build a concrete torture chamber with rings on the wall 413 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: in concrete and manacles and chains in the whole shot, 414 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: and witnessed from my cellmates on what he was going 415 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: to do and how he was going to abduct and 416 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: torture women. That's part of the court record. I did 417 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: not see that in the document mentored by the Avery 418 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: pr fur because he was wrongfully convicted, ones does not 419 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: mean he didn't do anything else. Bombshell in court in 420 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: the last hours of Retiresconsin Detective sues Netflix over quote 421 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: portraying him the detective as a corrupt police officer who 422 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: planted evidence to frame an innocent man in making a murderer. 423 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: He issued not only Netflix, but the producers who recorded 424 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of hours and then wheeled it down 425 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: to create, according to him, a false picture of the 426 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: Avery prosecution. His complaint names the filmmakers by name, Laura 427 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: Ricardi and Maura Demos. They're all going to court. You 428 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: know what, who's telling the truth will find out in court. 429 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: But I want you to hear from police files a 430 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: confession by Steve and Avery the star the media darling 431 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: of Netflix nephew who was there with Avery when Avery 432 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: raped and murdered twenty seven year old Teresa Hall Back. 433 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: You listen for yourself. She's gonna revisit one thing when 434 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: you're in the bedroom and didn't and you cut her throat. 435 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: Previously you said that you thought she was alive. Is 436 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: that still your thought on that? Yeah? And why was that? 437 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: Because she was breathing a little bit. She was like chinning, 438 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: not trying to breathe this. How is she going screaming 439 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 1: screaming a lot? She was screaming a lot, or wasn't 440 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: she was when you cut her throat? Was she screaming 441 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: when you cut her throat? Because when you're screaming a lot, 442 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: you like you're breaming? Was off her home? Explain that 443 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: a little bit. You said she was screaming off When 444 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: was she screaming about, like while you were doing it, 445 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: after you did it, before he did it before when 446 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: you cut her throat, What was she doing if anything, 447 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: like screaming for help and crying. I want to I 448 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: want to get that straight. She was screaming for help 449 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: and crying when you cut her throat? Yeah, when did 450 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 1: Steven choker or strangler like a little bit after Well, 451 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: let's let's just go back a little bit, okay, tell 452 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: us what exactly happened to her? What order had happened? 453 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: He said, there were basically three things prior to you 454 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: guys shooting her. Explain those in the order that had happened, 455 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: starting less when we got in the room. Yeah, what 456 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:55,479 Speaker 1: what you guys did to her? It's nice spec Okay. 457 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: Then he stabbed her? And who stabbed her? He did? 458 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: Who's here, Steven? Okay? And then what colds? Okay? He 459 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: talked to in that cove r here? Okay, So he 460 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: choked her after your cut her throne. You are hearing 461 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: the part of the confession of Stephen Avery's nephew Brendan Dassy. 462 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: We were taking a look at a bombshell document that 463 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: is happening right now. The entire premise of Season one 464 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: and Making a Murderer is the question of whether Stephen Avery, 465 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: a junkyard owner who had already spent time behind bars 466 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: on a crime he didn't commit, and his nephew Brendan Dassy, 467 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: were they framed for the murder of Teresa Halback, twenty 468 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: five year old photographer. Well, the evidence is overwhelming and 469 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: the defense theory that police orchestrated this whole thing is 470 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: beyond the pale. It makes no sense to John Lee, 471 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: investigative reporter with the Ghanette, Wisconsin newspapers, John Lee, what 472 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: happened in Making a Murderer the way it was produced 473 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: and all the film cut and the testimony cut. That's 474 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: exactly what the detective is talking about for only certain 475 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:22,239 Speaker 1: parts of testimony is mishmashed together, a cobble together, and 476 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: a quilt that looks so damning it shows him the 477 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: detective pacing around nervously before his testimony is if he's 478 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: guilty of something. In ken Kratz's book and also with 479 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: Andy Colburn's lawsuit, they do some side by side comparisons 480 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: with transcripts of what the court record shows and what 481 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: Making a Murderer show, And you can see being kind 482 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: calling a creative entity, not being time to just call 483 00:33:53,560 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: it lying. These people were embedded with the Avery family 484 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: from from the first week they had seen a story. 485 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: They were filmed students in New York. They made millions 486 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: of dollars off. I hope some of it asked to 487 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 1: go to Andy Colberg for the damage they've done to him, 488 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 1: you know, and he has had to stand by doctor 489 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, and watch his reputation dragged through 490 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 1: the mud. That really really hurts, especially when you you 491 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 1: can't really defend yourself. Doctor Daniel Bober, you are a 492 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 1: forensic psychiatrist, Could you plase analyze the portion of the 493 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: confession I just played by Brendan Dacy Well, I mean, 494 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 1: I think it seems like it's you know, he's being 495 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,399 Speaker 1: sincere in a in a strange way. That's a word 496 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: I should even use. It doesn't sound like it's false. 497 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: It sounds like he's he's being completely genuine, very matter 498 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: of fact, and he doesn't sound like he's deceiving at all. 499 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 1: You know. This lawsuit filed on behalf of Detective Colburn 500 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: is very detailed. It talks about one scene in making 501 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: a that states that an insinuation was objected to and sustained. 502 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: But it makes it look like, according to the lawsuit, 503 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: that a crucial line of testimony was falsely conveyed to 504 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:21,240 Speaker 1: the viewers that the detective had located Haullbacks SUV somewhere 505 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: other than the salvage yard. The junkyard days earlier, and 506 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: likely assisted cops in planting it on Stephen Avery's junkyard. 507 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 1: They are, according to the lawsuit, making it look like 508 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 1: this detective found Halback's car and then dragged it, helped 509 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 1: drag it to Stephen Avery's place. Now, this is all 510 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,360 Speaker 1: before Avery was arrested. He didn't notice a bunch of 511 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: cops dragging a car and hiding it on his junkyard. 512 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: How did that happen? How was that supposed to happen? 513 00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 1: John Lee? The theory that they're trying on this planting 514 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: was tried by or attempted by Avery's original attorneys in 515 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: preset pre trial hearings and was thrown out by the 516 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: trial judge for being speculative and having no basis, no 517 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 1: no proof or anything else. What Kathleen Zeller, Avery's Zappella's 518 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: attorney is doing is just throwing stuff on the wall 519 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: and seeing if anything sticks. Well, none of it is 520 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,799 Speaker 1: stuck so far. Well, you know what you're right, John Lane. 521 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: I just want to point something out really quickly to 522 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,439 Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family divorce lawyer. Part of what 523 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: John Lee is saying, the part about this lawyer Kathleen Zellner. 524 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: She's foiled an appeal for a retrial, and she cites 525 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,839 Speaker 1: an effective assistance of counsel i e. The lawyers are 526 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: crappy for the defense. But she's also filed documents pointing 527 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: the finger at Dacy's older brother Bobby. So she's now 528 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,879 Speaker 1: pointing the finger at his relatives, claiming, oh, you know what, 529 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: you know how I said they had nothing to do 530 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 1: with Actually his brother did it. That's who did it. 531 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it is just so screwed up she's doing man, 532 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: after a previous motion was thrown out where she tried 533 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: to point the finger at Teresa's roommate and former boyfriend. 534 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,240 Speaker 1: You know, so now it's a game of pointing fingers. 535 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend at WBA. Why this 536 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: is Sharon begin to The lawsuit claims the making a 537 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: murderer serious portrays Colburn as a corrupt officer who framed 538 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: an innocent man by planting evidence. He said that she 539 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 1: was taking some pictures of a van. Stephen Avery and 540 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: has nephew, Brendan Dacy were convicted of Hallback's murder in 541 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, but Avery has been wrongly convicted 542 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 1: in the past of sexually assaulting a different woman in 543 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five. Colburn's lawsuit says the makers of the 544 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: documentary spliced reaction shots of Colburn appearing nerves it's an 545 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: apprehensive during trial, I believe that, and heavily edited Colburn's 546 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: testimony to making viewers think he planted evidence inside haulbox 547 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,839 Speaker 1: car and in Avery's bedroom. The complaint also says making 548 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: a murderer fail to release significant facts in the trial, 549 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: like Avery's DNA being located on haulbox hood latch, Avery's 550 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 1: differing statements, and a bullet with Haullbox DNA linked to 551 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: a firearm hung on Avery's wall. The court battle rages on. 552 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:31,440 Speaker 1: It ain't over yet. I'm just telling you Stephen Avery, murder, 553 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: Teresa Hallback, and a whole lot more. Nancy Grace crime 554 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: story signing off, Goodbye, Fran