Speaker 1: What's, What's? What's I'm Robert Evans. This is it could
Speaker 1: happen here the show that asks what's and also other questions,
Speaker 1: um more more more meaningful questions than that about you know,
Speaker 1: things falling apart, fixing them, all that good stuff with
Speaker 1: me today as usual Garrison and Chris and as is
Speaker 1: currently unusual, but will be more usual every preceding month
Speaker 1: after this one. Our good friend st Andrew. St Andrew
Speaker 1: not quite about but that's fine. How are you doing today, Andrew?
Speaker 1: I'm good, I'm good. You know, it's rainy, it's chill.
Speaker 1: It's better than the kind of hot weather we've been
Speaker 1: getting lately. So I'm good. Yeah, it's raining and chill here.
Speaker 1: But that's seven months of the year. Uh. I think
Speaker 1: there's slightly different uh climates in Portland, Oregon and Trinidad, probably,
Speaker 1: I've been told. Um. So we have had you on
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks back to talk about solar Punk,
Speaker 1: and we're gonna be bringing you back on about twice
Speaker 1: a month to talk about, um, whatever the hell you
Speaker 1: want to talk about. And so I'm going to now
Speaker 1: hand the episode over to you, um and trust like
Speaker 1: a little lamb that you'll lead me somewhere beautiful and
Speaker 1: filled with good forage. Yes, sunshine, rainbows, the promised land. Yeah. Okay,
Speaker 1: So I think we've all noticed that the environmental this
Speaker 1: smoothment kind of sucks jumping into it, has not done
Speaker 1: the things that has not accomplished. Has been around for
Speaker 1: like over half a century or actually really more than that,
Speaker 1: and you know, where are we know? You know? Um,
Speaker 1: of course we do have to confront and acknowledge that,
Speaker 1: like there's the sc where oil company has literally suppressed
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of information and you know, co opted
Speaker 1: like a lot of the earlier movements and stuff. But
Speaker 1: we've kind of known for a while now and we
Speaker 1: are still here, so it's like what gives you know? Um,
Speaker 1: I think there's kind of an interesting phenomenon that I
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about today, um known as soft climate
Speaker 1: change denial. So are you're familiar with that or what
Speaker 1: you'll think it is? Based on foot impressions? UM, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've heard the term. I would think it's sort of um,
Speaker 1: I mean a number of different things, including the idea
Speaker 1: that like, well there's nothing we can do, so nothing
Speaker 1: should be done, you know, m hmm. Yeah, what what
Speaker 1: what what's your garrison? Yeah, most of my understanding of
Speaker 1: the term is like someone like saying they like know,
Speaker 1: the climate change is the thing, like they recognize that,
Speaker 1: but they are kind of more in denial of what
Speaker 1: solutions can be done to really change anything. That's generation
Speaker 1: understanding of the term. When I see it like online
Speaker 1: or something, Yeah, what what's your Chris? Yeah, I usually
Speaker 1: see it's it's like it's usually in the context of people,
Speaker 1: you know, can in the US, there's the whole um,
Speaker 1: there's whole political factions whose entire thing is saying, like,
Speaker 1: we believe in science, and then they'll go talk about
Speaker 1: like how much they believe in climate change, and then
Speaker 1: two seconds later and around they're like signings. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: that that's that's that's my understanding of it, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So according to everyone's favorite source um Wikipedia, soft climate
Speaker 1: change denial is a state of mind acknowledging the existence
Speaker 1: of global women in the abstract what re meaning to
Speaker 1: some extent impartial psychological or intellectuals and nihilism, what it's
Speaker 1: really t or impact. And so when I was spoken
Speaker 1: about in my channel in my most recent video where
Speaker 1: I was talking with the different facets of solar punk.
Speaker 1: You know what sola punk is, what it needs, um,
Speaker 1: things that probably potentially drag down the solo punk movement,
Speaker 1: and things that people have been using to try to
Speaker 1: drag it down. Because so the punk is kind of
Speaker 1: building in popularity, and with anything that builds in popularity,
Speaker 1: there are attempts from all sorts of angles to co
Speaker 1: opt it and to repackage it and to modify it
Speaker 1: and all those things. So I've kind of noticed with
Speaker 1: the soula punk phenomenon that there's this effort by people
Speaker 1: who professed to care about the climates and stuff to
Speaker 1: try to push it away from more radical directions towards
Speaker 1: something more appealing and appeasing to the status cool into
Speaker 1: the system um and I mean according to the Wikipedia definition,
Speaker 1: you know, it's they call it a state of mind.
Speaker 1: I think it's also like an implicit philosophy that undergodes
Speaker 1: like entire groups and entire movements. You know, so like
Speaker 1: for example, obviously you know in affects individuals, where you know,
Speaker 1: people will um miscalculated its risks and think that climate
Speaker 1: climate change is just extra storms or something. But then
Speaker 1: they also, like people a really the movements that would
Speaker 1: neglect its urgency with just these platitudes and these um
Speaker 1: directionless actions that just to like this kind of middling reformism,
Speaker 1: um like, they underestimate the extent of social change required
Speaker 1: to like mitigate climate change, so basically don't seek to
Speaker 1: change its out of school, but just to sort of
Speaker 1: tweak it ever so slightly to like capitalism with a
Speaker 1: carbon tax or something. Um. And then of course they're
Speaker 1: people who kind of straddle that that fence or maybe
Speaker 1: small a spectrum between soft climb change nile and hardclim
Speaker 1: change nile, where they might overestimate the extent of scientific uncertainty,
Speaker 1: so they might think that, oh, well, you know, um yeah,
Speaker 1: club warming is happening, but we don't exactly know how
Speaker 1: much it's going to change the climate or how much
Speaker 1: it's impacting our lives and that kind of thing, so
Speaker 1: they basically tune it into something that's still up for debate,
Speaker 1: you know. And A's why I say it kind of
Speaker 1: straggles that line between soft line and hardline, because obviously
Speaker 1: the hard climb change nihilists they're just like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't exist, or if it does exist,
Speaker 1: humans don't closet if you and still course there's nothing
Speaker 1: we can do that kind of thing. Have you all
Speaker 1: had like experiences with soft climb change nil, like and
Speaker 1: your own personal organizing? Oh yeah, yeah, I would say
Speaker 1: so I have encountered. Um. I mean it's kind of
Speaker 1: a thing you encounter constantly in American politics because it's
Speaker 1: it's really like often times your best option, uh, in
Speaker 1: terms of like it's that or the people who say
Speaker 1: that talking about climate change is socialism. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: so I was in verminal Studies mature for most of
Speaker 1: college and then I decided not to do it and
Speaker 1: then I got like a minor instead because like one
Speaker 1: class off well, long story, but you know, it was
Speaker 1: interesting seeing it there because like you know, there there
Speaker 1: were basically like two possible reactions to learning that. One
Speaker 1: was like people who you know, okay, what one was
Speaker 1: you get incredibly depressed and that's what I did. Or
Speaker 1: and then that's the second one was people would you
Speaker 1: know and these people who like actually you know, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean these are rebial studies madis right, Like these
Speaker 1: people have spent a lot of time studying this stuff
Speaker 1: and they kind of like, I don't know this is
Speaker 1: almost like like this kind of intellectual retreat where you
Speaker 1: could see people businesally just like convincing themselves that like
Speaker 1: somehow this would be okay, and they'd like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: people would just get like completely obsessed with like electoral
Speaker 1: maps and you're like no, no no, no, no, no, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: if if if we win exactly this number of seats
Speaker 1: in this year, then like we can we can start
Speaker 1: doing carbon credits or like, I don't know, it was
Speaker 1: it was. It's really interesting to watch because it was
Speaker 1: like it was it was I mean, because like I
Speaker 1: think I think that there's there's like there's very there's
Speaker 1: bad faith versions of it, and then I think there's
Speaker 1: also versions of it that are just sort of like
Speaker 1: people genuinely not want to accept, yeah, like the what's
Speaker 1: necessary to stop this? And so they're sort of like
Speaker 1: that they can't even really like think about what's necessarily
Speaker 1: because because of how the education system works, and just
Speaker 1: I could go on like long runs about the education system.
Speaker 1: It really it really really um it really limits people's
Speaker 1: ability to think outside of like this very very strict
Speaker 1: box of possibilities because you know, so much just left
Speaker 1: out of um for example, history classes, and soone just
Speaker 1: left out of um, really all the subjects. There's this
Speaker 1: very clear ideology that you're expected to come out of
Speaker 1: the education system with. And so even when you reach
Speaker 1: academia and high education and stuff, you're still stuck with
Speaker 1: that mode of thinking. And even as you're presented with
Speaker 1: all this new information, because your brain currently like handle
Speaker 1: like the great extent of what climate change is, you know,
Speaker 1: it kind of retreats into this sort of simple kind
Speaker 1: of all, we just need to vote, because voting is
Speaker 1: all I know. Voting is a tool to do. Voting
Speaker 1: is politics, and politics is voting. That's the extent of it, right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: It's like this weird form of self preservation that people
Speaker 1: need to do and or to kind of like keep
Speaker 1: their keep them from in their mind, you know, like
Speaker 1: spiral like out control, because this is the only thing
Speaker 1: that you know, they have. They need to focus on
Speaker 1: their own life right now, in their own current problems.
Speaker 1: And if they think about this because this like large
Speaker 1: looming threat too much, it just freaks you out right,
Speaker 1: and you have in order to in order to just
Speaker 1: keep going on with your life. A lot of people
Speaker 1: like segment off this type of thing in their own
Speaker 1: brain so that you know, manifests in a lot of cases,
Speaker 1: and this kind of soft denial so that you can
Speaker 1: just keep on going. Yeah, yeah, and I see with
Speaker 1: with friends, and I see with the family. You know,
Speaker 1: obviously they'rely handful of people who still, at least in
Speaker 1: my experience, we still deny climate change. But then there's
Speaker 1: like a bigger portion of people whose whole understanding climate
Speaker 1: change is just this or but we just need to
Speaker 1: recycle and we just need to like switch to electric vehicles,
Speaker 1: and once we do that, you know, we'll be okay. Um,
Speaker 1: which is tweak a couple of things, get some solar
Speaker 1: panels and yeah, you know, the understanding of it has
Speaker 1: been completely limited to like this, are you restricted conversation
Speaker 1: that is like um, basically cultivated by certain interest groups
Speaker 1: on certain um lobbying groups and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, that's only a certain amount of change
Speaker 1: is allowed, and that's what we're allowed to think. So
Speaker 1: that's what we're like shown for examples of in like
Speaker 1: media and pop culture or whatever. Right, So this is
Speaker 1: you know, this is kind of what um, you know,
Speaker 1: like all of the YouTubers who got money from Bill Gates.
Speaker 1: When Bill Gates wrote his climate book, right, all all
Speaker 1: of the things that they were talking about is like,
Speaker 1: it's like this kind of stuff because the only way
Speaker 1: from Bill Gates to keep his money well you know,
Speaker 1: talking about climate change is to have these kind of
Speaker 1: half fast like solutions that are actually deny the impending
Speaker 1: reality and deny that. No, the only way to actually
Speaker 1: fix it is by taking all his money, um, which
Speaker 1: he's not as big a fan of. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: have you all seen the video on climate change and
Speaker 1: economy coming? What did you want? Climate change in a nutshell?
Speaker 1: It's like this like that so people can find it,
Speaker 1: but people will I think people people know. I think
Speaker 1: a lot a lot of people know what it is.
Speaker 1: Or you can just search in a nutshell on YouTube.
Speaker 1: Key you are, I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try, k
Speaker 1: you are? No, it's ku r g? Was it ku
Speaker 1: r z? I think it's ku r z g E
Speaker 1: s A A G T right, it is. It is
Speaker 1: a It is a weird one. But what what what
Speaker 1: are you talking about? The can you fix climate change? Yeah? Yeah, yeah?
Speaker 1: Where the whole thesis is basically vote with your ballots
Speaker 1: and vote with your wallet. Yeah, that's the only thing
Speaker 1: that you're really allowed, right. Yeah, And I believe this
Speaker 1: is one of the videos spots they put this, um
Speaker 1: yeah they did. It was and then they had this
Speaker 1: whole line about some people think we need to change
Speaker 1: like our systems from climate or from from capitalism, but
Speaker 1: we're not so sure about that. We don't know the answer.
Speaker 1: So it's just like shrug towards all system. It's from
Speaker 1: with the system. But they basically gave it no attention,
Speaker 1: you know. But their channel is literally about like quite
Speaker 1: deep into research about things. So it's very obvious that
Speaker 1: if they spent no time like doing any kind of
Speaker 1: research into like why people have the system and critique that,
Speaker 1: obviously Bilkie It's hand is very deep in their pockets,
Speaker 1: you know, because I believe that I believe the researchers
Speaker 1: actually kind of know that, but they're not. They just
Speaker 1: can't say you're not allowed to. Yeah, And I mean like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think they're making the bargain a lot of people
Speaker 1: make where they're like, Okay, well, if we can push
Speaker 1: for you know, the immediate necessary changes, we can worry
Speaker 1: about you know, stuff like that later on. It's it's
Speaker 1: just important to get something done. Um, and so we'll
Speaker 1: compromise and will not will not call for what we
Speaker 1: know is actually necessary to deal with the problem. We'll
Speaker 1: just we'll just go with a half measure because at
Speaker 1: least it's something we've got to do something now, right.
Speaker 1: The thing that's always been very grim about that to
Speaker 1: me is like you look about how how that plays out, right,
Speaker 1: and it's always like, well, okay, so our our half
Speaker 1: measure is gonna be we're gonna we're gonna just like
Speaker 1: put put put a monetary value on indigenous forests so
Speaker 1: that governments can like steal them and get paid for
Speaker 1: taking the land. And it's never stuff like why don't
Speaker 1: we like make more marshes, which is you know, if
Speaker 1: if you're gonna talk about stuff that like could actually
Speaker 1: be done, right, it's like, okay, well, but what do
Speaker 1: re marshing do we want? Like that's that that stuff
Speaker 1: like is easy and doesn't need you know, you don't
Speaker 1: literally have to overthrow capitalism to get people to like
Speaker 1: restore marshes. But it never happens because this that's you know,
Speaker 1: the whole basis of the sort of soft anihilism stuff
Speaker 1: is not actually you know, it's not actually the type
Speaker 1: of self climate change. They just want to make money
Speaker 1: and it's extremely grim. Yeah. Yeah, there's this video that
Speaker 1: the storyteller was this YouTuber UM he did recently on
Speaker 1: co opting movements, and he was explaining that, Um, with
Speaker 1: the March in Washington right during the Civil Rights movement. Um,
Speaker 1: that was an organic movement that you know, the people
Speaker 1: had come up with, right, but obviously a mass movement.
Speaker 1: The FBI isn't going to just sit back and let
Speaker 1: that happen, right, so they brought in these leaders. Um
Speaker 1: they're called the Big Six, and um, the storyteller was
Speaker 1: explaining that basically they were paid to co opt the march,
Speaker 1: to basically become its figureheads and its leaders. They hadn't
Speaker 1: organized it themselves, but they came on afterwards and became
Speaker 1: the leaders in the march and read the speeches that
Speaker 1: they were supposed to read in that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: And so that sort of mass movement was basically be
Speaker 1: found like that. I mean, obviously reforms were made and
Speaker 1: you know, Civil Rights Act was passed, But then you know,
Speaker 1: after all that happened and MLK got disillusioned by the
Speaker 1: system as a whole. And wanted to start pushing even
Speaker 1: harder against capitalism and whatnot. That's when oh, well, coincidentally,
Speaker 1: you gotta pullet you know. So, I think it's interesting
Speaker 1: that these movements they're able, they're they're comfortable with these
Speaker 1: movements up to a certain point, um, and comfortable these
Speaker 1: leaders going these certain directions at to a certain point.
Speaker 1: But then when you actually start posing a threat to
Speaker 1: the stat of school, that's when you know, you become
Speaker 1: a problem in like a major way. Not to say
Speaker 1: that okay, it wasn't a threat to the stat of school,
Speaker 1: but just to say that, you know, um, there was.
Speaker 1: They have certain limits that they don't want people across. Yeah, capitalism.
Speaker 1: One of the things that's that makes it such a
Speaker 1: robust system in terms of its ability to to not
Speaker 1: get overthrown or destroyed is that, up to a certain point,
Speaker 1: it loves dissent. It loves anti capitalism because you can
Speaker 1: market that very easily. Like there's a lot of money
Speaker 1: in in in anti capitalism. There's a lot of money
Speaker 1: and being critical of the system. It's just when you
Speaker 1: hit a certain point, um, then it then it becomes
Speaker 1: you know, the c i A or the FBI or
Speaker 1: some person who's been um convinced to shoot use problem
Speaker 1: like it. There's a there's a point at which, uh,
Speaker 1: that's no longer accepted, but quite a bit of criticism
Speaker 1: and even like agitation to change or end the system
Speaker 1: can be accepted because it's monetize herbal and speaking of that,
Speaker 1: you of what time it is time for a serious
Speaker 1: Absolutely is oh boy, time for an ad or or
Speaker 1: that's the CIA at the door. We won't know until
Speaker 1: we come back from break. Ah, we're back. It wasn't
Speaker 1: the CIA this time. Good news, guys, thankfully. I mean
Speaker 1: the fact that they flew all the way down just
Speaker 1: to meet me. I'm on it, honestly. Oh, I mean
Speaker 1: they've come to trend a dad for less. Oh that's true. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: But like we were seeing, right, there's a school issue
Speaker 1: of these movements being able to go in a sitting direction,
Speaker 1: but only up to a sitting point. Um. I think
Speaker 1: it's something that Peter Gallus also talks about in how
Speaker 1: non violence protects the state, in the sense of, you know,
Speaker 1: these people are able to once they get a certain
Speaker 1: level of attention, all of a sudden, you know, you're
Speaker 1: invited to speak of these events, and you're invited to
Speaker 1: go this place and that, and you basically get consumed
Speaker 1: into the workshop machine, the angio machine, and the climate
Speaker 1: conference machine kind of things. So you end up with
Speaker 1: all these figures, these organizers, these activists who go from
Speaker 1: like generally trying to organize their communities and their spaces,
Speaker 1: and then before you know what they're like at such
Speaker 1: and such conference because well, they think it's an opportunity
Speaker 1: to like actually make like a bigger change. But in reality,
Speaker 1: you know, they just there too be defound. You know,
Speaker 1: like for example, who mainly comes to mind, it's like
Speaker 1: Greater Thunberg. I mean I haven't looked at deeply into
Speaker 1: her past or anything. Um. I know they are certain
Speaker 1: right wingers who are very obsessed with her, but I
Speaker 1: know that she recently said that she's kind of done
Speaker 1: with politicians. Um. Because when you think of how she
Speaker 1: basically came up, you know, right exactly, and think what
Speaker 1: how she basically came up? It was like she is
Speaker 1: talking at these events, and you know, people are in
Speaker 1: fighting into things because you know, look at look at
Speaker 1: this cute little google um yelling about climate change, right,
Speaker 1: and she basically becomes this spectacle you know, and that
Speaker 1: spectacle is entertained up to the point people make big
Speaker 1: events out of her, you know, like breaking down in
Speaker 1: front of these politicians and stuff, and you know what,
Speaker 1: they just go right back to normal. UM. I think
Speaker 1: it was copy was last week or the week before
Speaker 1: UM and representatives from representative I think the Prime Minister
Speaker 1: of Barbados was there and she had this, you know,
Speaker 1: a great speech about how the global nothings do more
Speaker 1: for you know, these countries in Global South because you
Speaker 1: know they have responsibility. That kind of thing. Cool UM.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, you know there's like developments
Speaker 1: going on Barbados too, you know, basically bring in more
Speaker 1: tourists and to bring in more UM and like you know,
Speaker 1: resorts building and that kind of thing that basically add
Speaker 1: to the UM emissions and adds the UM negative impact
Speaker 1: in the environment. You know, same thing with like Tat's government,
Speaker 1: you know, like the representative that went to including the
Speaker 1: Prime minister, and you know they're all about things changing
Speaker 1: and you know, the climate movement UM and the climate
Speaker 1: change being real and actions need to be taken. And
Speaker 1: then like this didn't make it in like like mainstream
Speaker 1: news of course, but in local news. Basically right after
Speaker 1: primmes of trying to vehicle Dr Keith Rowley, he went
Speaker 1: and met up with like Shell. Yeah, like representatives at
Speaker 1: Shell to like basically bring the country and the company
Speaker 1: closer together, you know, um, because you know you're not
Speaker 1: is reliant and oil and that kind of thing. So
Speaker 1: obviously these sort of leaders and these sorts of movements,
Speaker 1: they only go up to a certain point. And even then,
Speaker 1: so much of it is just this performance. Yeah, this
Speaker 1: UM act. Basically I'll be I'm putting together a thing
Speaker 1: on copies six right now, UM because I think it
Speaker 1: actually it does demonstrate a lot of the soft denial
Speaker 1: stuff that you're talking about. Like the biggest thing to
Speaker 1: come out of cop twenties X in terms of like
Speaker 1: actual deals is just uh progress on carbon markets and
Speaker 1: carbon offset credits. That's there. That's really the only thing
Speaker 1: we actually got. Um And they say red but not
Speaker 1: not like us, but like you know, the people in charge,
Speaker 1: they they got this and and the the quote they
Speaker 1: gave was that the being able to buy carbon offset credits,
Speaker 1: meaning that like you don't actually make emissions differences, so
Speaker 1: they said, you you buy pretend emissions differences from other
Speaker 1: countries that actually did make changes, Um, so that you
Speaker 1: don't get penalized. So that's it's buying the credits far
Speaker 1: but they said, they said, buying the credits can potentially
Speaker 1: unlock trillions of dollars for protecting trees, expanding renewable energy,
Speaker 1: and other projects the combat climate change. It's it's the
Speaker 1: fuckers like, don't climate credits. It's like, um, it's the
Speaker 1: same as saying like hail Mary's because you you send
Speaker 1: and you went to your priest and confessed. It's like
Speaker 1: I've I've I've done bad things to the environment. Tell me,
Speaker 1: like how many times I need to go through this
Speaker 1: ritual in order to in order to cleanse myself of
Speaker 1: having the atmosphere you know exactly. I think it's bleaker
Speaker 1: than that in a lot of ways, Like it's it's it's, it's, it's,
Speaker 1: it's it's really it's the climate version of like the
Speaker 1: World Wildlife Fund having death squads. Okay, now, Chris, you
Speaker 1: are a very anti death squad, and I think we
Speaker 1: need to deal with that at some point because hashtag
Speaker 1: not all death squads. Yes, my mother will need to
Speaker 1: be able to account for by strong anti death squad stance.
Speaker 1: This is a yeah, you say that now, but you're
Speaker 1: gonna get a death squad to fight the death squads,
Speaker 1: And then where are you begin to be ce death
Speaker 1: squadsption get they get a death squad to fight your
Speaker 1: death squad, and then it's just like the constant each
Speaker 1: other outs. Then you have to get another death squad,
Speaker 1: and then see Marxist Leninism. Yeah, it's a number of
Speaker 1: other things too, to be fair to Marxism. Another thing
Speaker 1: that might make you kind of question the integrity of
Speaker 1: CUT is that there were more delegates at Cup six
Speaker 1: from fossil field companies than there were from any individual nation.
Speaker 1: That makes sense. But then right, that's like another thing, right,
Speaker 1: because you're talking A six and we have soft climate
Speaker 1: change denial gets into that. But I don't think. I
Speaker 1: think self fund change denial can only be applied so
Speaker 1: far when it comes to those sorts of big spectacles
Speaker 1: and those big major events. Because even if they themselves
Speaker 1: really truly understand the depths of climate change and trust
Speaker 1: and believe like these wild barns and stuff, they knew
Speaker 1: like they have all the info right present front of them,
Speaker 1: They've done. They're already done. Their like cost benefit analyzes
Speaker 1: and like risk assessments and kind of thing, so they
Speaker 1: know exactly like what the impact going to be. They
Speaker 1: have the money to have access to the scientists, right,
Speaker 1: But it's not soft clime change denial for them. It's
Speaker 1: I'm a capitalist, I'm going to do what a capitalist does.
Speaker 1: You know. It's ultimately a funct Wait, they're operating within
Speaker 1: a system, you know, so soft time changenial. Um, it
Speaker 1: is like sort of a psychological phenomenon. But we also
Speaker 1: to keep in mind the day is also like a
Speaker 1: structural component to it. See that even if they're a
Speaker 1: person does not face self clim change now is an
Speaker 1: experiencing self clim change denial that alone, even if they're
Speaker 1: like fully confront the sue, that's just an individual, you know,
Speaker 1: and there's still like a whole structure around that individual
Speaker 1: that we're still incentivize certain behavior, and then of course
Speaker 1: with the incentives of certain behavior comes like the psychological
Speaker 1: justifications for that behavior. So it kind of almost becomes
Speaker 1: that they end up justifying themselves into self climate change denial,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So it's kind of like
Speaker 1: it's like a fluid that it's like a feedback loop
Speaker 1: that reinforces its own existence. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean I
Speaker 1: think that honestly, Like the feedback loop model is where
Speaker 1: we have a lot of our problems with the climate
Speaker 1: change are. They're all very much linked to the feedback
Speaker 1: loop model of things trying to justify their own existence.
Speaker 1: And then you know, certain and then on the reverse
Speaker 1: side of things, you know, when certain changes in the
Speaker 1: climate happen, those create their own feedback loops which create
Speaker 1: more changes to happen. It's like everything, everything, one one
Speaker 1: massive loop. Yeah. I gets me to like, there's the
Speaker 1: discourse around climate change and stuff is like halted and
Speaker 1: divoted and immobilized, you know by soft climate change. Now,
Speaker 1: you know, discussions of the very real, very current, very
Speaker 1: near future and very violent impacts of climate change just
Speaker 1: basically softened, like like you know when you try to
Speaker 1: throw a punch in a dream. Yeah, Like you're trying
Speaker 1: to like push, and then it's like, you know, it's
Speaker 1: like this kind of soft um or like you throw
Speaker 1: something in space. I guess it's just you put all
Speaker 1: this effort into it and then you go in another
Speaker 1: direction that kind of thing. Um. I don't know what
Speaker 1: I'm going with this analogy, so I'll just keep on going. Um,
Speaker 1: basically that there's an issue with the conversation with the
Speaker 1: discourse has just been you know, harmed by the psychological phenomenon.
Speaker 1: But then, of course there's the other side of psychological
Speaker 1: phenomenon of soft clan engine enial, not the hard colansin
Speaker 1: genial side, but rather the I'm so on the opposite
Speaker 1: end of soft cluanngin chanial that I'm like an inconsolable
Speaker 1: and like illogical and I can't even imagine the possibility
Speaker 1: of anything happening kind of yeah. Yeah, the kind of
Speaker 1: the kind of extreme dumerism where you recognize how you
Speaker 1: organize that climp tog is bad, um, but then you
Speaker 1: you see it as such a massive, overwhelming thing that
Speaker 1: basically shuts you down from be able to do anything else,
Speaker 1: and you just like, exactly, there's really no going to
Speaker 1: do anything if it's going to be this bad, There's
Speaker 1: really no one's you know, it's such a hard capitalism
Speaker 1: and the systems that are working to keep it going
Speaker 1: or such a hard thing to overcome that it seems
Speaker 1: like the best thing to do is just sit down
Speaker 1: and do nothing. Yeah, And that's the thing right, Like
Speaker 1: these are slash collapse people, right, Um, I mean I
Speaker 1: appreciate that they don't shy away from like the really
Speaker 1: difficult stuff, and they also stumble into this kind of
Speaker 1: like hoop, that's dumorism, Like it's dramatic kind of we
Speaker 1: are screwed. We're all going to be fighting this mad
Speaker 1: Max style arena. Like that's not how you know, clime
Speaker 1: chine is going to play out. You know, it's not
Speaker 1: a movie. You know, like if things are going to
Speaker 1: break down in suit and places and other places are
Speaker 1: gonna lockdown in suiting weez, but it's not going to
Speaker 1: be like this certain globe devolution into madness like that.
Speaker 1: You know, that's not really how social change. That's already
Speaker 1: how collapses how you know, functional history. You know, of
Speaker 1: course we live in a like a global civilization, and
Speaker 1: previous collapses have been fairly localized. But still, you know,
Speaker 1: climate change is both global and local, so there are
Speaker 1: certain changes it will only affects it in localities. This
Speaker 1: is something that actually the book Desert addresses fairly well,
Speaker 1: and I find it frustram Yeah, yeah, because I find
Speaker 1: really frustrating because especially on the online left, there's people
Speaker 1: who treat desert like the Gospel, or at least they
Speaker 1: say they do, but they're actually extreme doomers who fetishize collapse. Um,
Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, everything is hopeless. Read desert but
Speaker 1: then you but then but you really Desert is like
Speaker 1: explicitly anti collapse. Same collapse isn't gonna happen. Collapse is
Speaker 1: a fantasy you tell yourself to keep you going. And
Speaker 1: for this kind haven't heard of? Desert The Desert is
Speaker 1: a book that's available for free online about what's coming. Um.
Speaker 1: It's titled desert because of an old quote about how
Speaker 1: empires um leave nothing but deserts in their way. Basically
Speaker 1: like that's it's it's just like a thing that that empire.
Speaker 1: I think the exact quote is like empires make a
Speaker 1: desert and call it peace. Um. And it's it's basically
Speaker 1: discussing the fact like not just literal desertification, but like, um,
Speaker 1: that that's more of a more of a better picture
Speaker 1: of like our future under climate change than kind of
Speaker 1: these these mad max dreams this like slow dissolution of
Speaker 1: resources and uh environments um. And that that's kind of
Speaker 1: the Yeah, it's a it's a good book. You can
Speaker 1: read it yourself, and it's it's quite influential online. Um.
Speaker 1: But yeah, as as Garrison pointed out, there are people
Speaker 1: who kind of take it in a in a direction
Speaker 1: that I don't believe the authors. I mean clearly the
Speaker 1: author didn't mean, because they directly called out that kind
Speaker 1: of thinking. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of like some people
Speaker 1: treat like collapse and stuff as basically the secular version
Speaker 1: of like revelation in the Bible. Yeah yeah, or it's
Speaker 1: or it's like the non marketus version of like the Revolution.
Speaker 1: It's like it's like this this kind of mythical event
Speaker 1: to like prepare for and almost be excited for, but
Speaker 1: like it's it's fake. It's a fantasy. It's it's something
Speaker 1: we tell ourselves to keep ourselves going as things are bad.
Speaker 1: But it's not. It's it's not real. Yeah, Like any day,
Speaker 1: you know, the trumpets will sound in the heavens and
Speaker 1: the screws will be broken and the great, the great
Speaker 1: beast will arise from the sea and you know all that.
Speaker 1: Five Yeah, And I don't know what the solution is
Speaker 1: for that. I I don't know how both on the
Speaker 1: soft climate denial side of like how do you go
Speaker 1: about how do you go about It's like, the only
Speaker 1: thing we can really do is the people, you know,
Speaker 1: we know, how how do we go about and tell
Speaker 1: them that, hey, things are probably gonna be a bit
Speaker 1: worse and which you're preparing for. Um And how do
Speaker 1: we tell the people who are doomers, Hey, it's not
Speaker 1: gonna be like this weird dystopian thing that you're thinking of.
Speaker 1: Either it's like it's it's it's interesting because like they're
Speaker 1: both veering off in two opposite directions, but it both
Speaker 1: kind of leads to the same point of kind of
Speaker 1: doing nothing. But one version. One version of nothing is basically,
Speaker 1: you know, voting for stuff that's not that's never gonna happen.
Speaker 1: The other version is not just not doing anything in general.
Speaker 1: Um And I I don't know how to how to
Speaker 1: reach those types of people very easily. Yeah, which kind
Speaker 1: of brings me to like my thoughts on like how
Speaker 1: we move past soft climate change Nile. Um. I don't
Speaker 1: think it's just a matter of like trying to like
Speaker 1: push like campaigns on people. I think it's gonna be
Speaker 1: like a very personal sort of journey that each person
Speaker 1: has to go through, right, because each wisnes is different.
Speaker 1: Each wisnes is like has different worries and dealing things
Speaker 1: in a different way, you know. Um, so like you
Speaker 1: want to keep in mind like people's mental health and
Speaker 1: sort of fortifying your mental health and helping people fortified days.
Speaker 1: Because when it comes to mental health with regard to
Speaker 1: like climate change, doing it an isolation in my experience
Speaker 1: has not really worked out. I think what has worked
Speaker 1: best for me is when I am with why I
Speaker 1: am connected with a group of people or even just
Speaker 1: one other person, and when I'm feeling down about climate change.
Speaker 1: Because despite all my messages of what sular punk and
Speaker 1: you know, we can do this like that that's basically
Speaker 1: the message of my YouTube channel. You know, I still
Speaker 1: experience like those sort of thoughts and feelings public about it.
Speaker 1: But what I try to do is when I'm feeling
Speaker 1: those things, I try to be with people who are
Speaker 1: not currently feeding that, you know, so we're not feeding
Speaker 1: all of each other's next of energies. Yeah, so like
Speaker 1: when I'm in a bad spot, you know, people are
Speaker 1: on who could lift me up, and when day about
Speaker 1: dy in a boat spot because it kind of comes
Speaker 1: and weaves, you know, Yeah, absolutely no, Yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's silly to deny those thoughts exist because they do.
Speaker 1: Like they're they're very they're a very easy neutral state
Speaker 1: at least for me to slip into UM. And the
Speaker 1: way to get around that is by doing chores at
Speaker 1: a farm and shoveling poop and taking care of animals
Speaker 1: and cooking for people. That's like the way that I
Speaker 1: get out of that kind of mindset. And you know,
Speaker 1: not not to be too hard on all of the
Speaker 1: kind of doomer nihilists, because there there is there, there
Speaker 1: is a there's this there's like a sect of like
Speaker 1: doomer nihilists who use like the actual definition of nihilism,
Speaker 1: which is like if if things don't really matter, we
Speaker 1: should probably fux some stuff up UM. And that's very useful,
Speaker 1: right like if if if you're if if you're on
Speaker 1: that train and you're like, yeah, you should be tree spiking,
Speaker 1: if if if if you're okay with if you think
Speaker 1: nothing matters UM, and you are you want to be
Speaker 1: an actual nihilist, then yeah you should make you should
Speaker 1: make destroy um. Just make sure it's focused on the
Speaker 1: people with actual power UM. Because if if you're willing
Speaker 1: to do that, then great, we need we need as
Speaker 1: many as many people like that as possible. But it's
Speaker 1: certainly easier to do that once you have friends and
Speaker 1: once you're not stuck in this super depressed state all
Speaker 1: the time. Yeah, and um, I think there's a again.
Speaker 1: We we we do take a look at like some
Speaker 1: of the criticisms people have a the show online, and
Speaker 1: I know one that's come up a bunch is people
Speaker 1: will listen to like our when when we'll talk about out,
Speaker 1: you know, the severity of the problems and then we'll
Speaker 1: talk about things like you know, mutual aid collectives and
Speaker 1: small guards, seed bombings and all that stuff, they'll be like, well,
Speaker 1: that's not a solution. And no, of course that's not
Speaker 1: going to solve the global problem of carbon emissions from
Speaker 1: a civilization of seven billion humans. What it does do
Speaker 1: focusing on stuff like that, focusing on building soil um,
Speaker 1: focusing on building community resistance. In addition to like having
Speaker 1: an immediate impact on the number of people you know,
Speaker 1: in in in your community, it builds a sense of um,
Speaker 1: a sense of power for the individual. It It gives
Speaker 1: you something to do that isn't just thinking about how
Speaker 1: bad things are, and that puts you in a mind
Speaker 1: state that's more useful to actually potentially dealing with the
Speaker 1: bigger problems at some point. Um, you have to have
Speaker 1: a sense of your own agency that feels real if
Speaker 1: you're going to actually change anything, um, And you can.
Speaker 1: You can build It's a hustle, right, you can build
Speaker 1: it up by by doing things that are not bigger
Speaker 1: but are are part of the solution. UM. And it's
Speaker 1: exactly valuable to do that for your own for your
Speaker 1: own mental health, because then maybe you if you're maybe
Speaker 1: if if your friend group, if your your affinity group,
Speaker 1: whatever you wanna call it, the people you are hanging
Speaker 1: out with, if some of them are always engaged in
Speaker 1: something productive, then when you're in a doomed spiral, you
Speaker 1: can find someone who's working on something um and vice versa. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And it doesn't just help your mental health, but it
Speaker 1: also contributes to the pre figurative activities that we need
Speaker 1: to actually make us switch to a different system. You know,
Speaker 1: like revolution is something that happens overnight or in a future,
Speaker 1: it's something that's supposed to be happening all now. Because
Speaker 1: as we build those systems, you know, we are building
Speaker 1: up power. You know, it's kind of like how the
Speaker 1: Black socialst in America described dual power. You know, it
Speaker 1: should be a building the systems and putting these things
Speaker 1: in please so that we can push towards like fundamental transmission.
Speaker 1: This is it's insterative, but a small people build on
Speaker 1: top of that, you know, that's how the transmission happens.
Speaker 1: We all also need to contribute. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: it's it's it's important to talk about this both to acknowledge,
Speaker 1: like it's a thing that happens and we all deal with.
Speaker 1: We all have our moments of like overwhelming despair over
Speaker 1: what's happening. Um, and and at some some moments of
Speaker 1: unrealistic optimism too. Yeah, everyone's in a while, and the
Speaker 1: unrealistic optimism needs to be encouraged. UM, as long as
Speaker 1: it's not the kind of what we don't need to
Speaker 1: do anything because someone's I guess there's toxic optimism, and
Speaker 1: there's helpful. A toxic optimism would be like reading an
Speaker 1: article about some new carbon capture technology and being like,
Speaker 1: oh cool, well I don't need to worry. Um. But
Speaker 1: but most optimism I think is po positive and I
Speaker 1: think it's good to build a capacity for optimism by
Speaker 1: by building your your personal sense of of agency and power,
Speaker 1: by by doing ship that helps UM. And I think
Speaker 1: that accepting that you can do things that are meaningful UM,
Speaker 1: and that uh there are things to be done that
Speaker 1: can help the situation is a critical way of fighting
Speaker 1: against you know this uh soft climate change denial, which
Speaker 1: which is a um, a major threat because there's I think,
Speaker 1: honestly at this point, more people who are subscribing to
Speaker 1: some form of soft climate change denial than there are
Speaker 1: people who are uh just denying climate change in its entirety. UM.
Speaker 1: And that's I think where a lot of the effort
Speaker 1: has to go. So I yeah, I think this is
Speaker 1: a really important thing for people to understand and to
Speaker 1: be vigilant against. Absolutely. Yeah. All right, well Andrew, where
Speaker 1: can in the audience find you? Outside? To find me
Speaker 1: here right now? Yeah, so you can find me on
Speaker 1: my YouTube channel St Andrew's UM and you can find
Speaker 1: me on Twitter at und School of Since you excellent, Well,
Speaker 1: you can find us here where you just found us.
Speaker 1: We'll be here tomorrow unless this is a Friday, in
Speaker 1: which case we'll be here on Monday. UM. Have a
Speaker 1: have a good you know life, have a good life.
Speaker 1: Take care. It could Happen Here as a production of
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. But more podcasts from cool Zone Media.
Speaker 1: Visit our website cool zone media dot com or check
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources
Speaker 1: for It could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone
Speaker 1: media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.