1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome back to Work in Progress. 2 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 1: Today's episode is all about it progress. That is because 3 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: today's guest is a bona Fide award winning scientist and 4 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: one of popular science magazines Brilliant ten, Dr Laurie Santos. 5 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: If you haven't heard about her or listened to her 6 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 1: Ted talk about monkey economics, you should absolutely check it out. 7 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: We will link it in the stories for this week's episode. 8 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: Pause the episode, honestly look it up. You will not 9 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: be disappointed because Dr Santos is fascinating. She is a 10 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: psychology professor at Yale University who has created the most 11 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: popular course in the university's three hundred year history. In 12 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: addition to that and her featured Speed Your Status with Ted, 13 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: Dr Santos has been featured by just about every news 14 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: platform and periodical you can think of, from The New 15 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: York Times to The Today Show to Oprah Magazine. She's 16 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: even a recipient of the Genius Award from the Liberty 17 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: Science Center. Her desire to educate has expanded to include 18 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab. It's a podcast series that she created 19 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: to reevaluate the things we think will lead us to 20 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: a happier life and how wrong we are about them 21 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: A whole lot of the time. There is so much 22 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: to learn from and about Dr Santos, and I am 23 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: going to try to cram as much as I can 24 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: into the time that we have together so that we 25 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: all can grow enjoy I am so excited, and I 26 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: have to say I've actually never done this with a guest. 27 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: You know, we record your intro separately and we could 28 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: just get to dive into conversation, but I actually really 29 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 1: want to begin our chat today with an explanation of 30 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: your podcast, The Happiness Lab, because I think it's going 31 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: to be a great kickoff for people who are tuning 32 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: into this episode, going what is this professor going to 33 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: tell me? Because when I read the description of your show, 34 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: I thought, yep, sign me up. I'm ready, and it 35 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: reads so beautifully. It says for everyone at home. You 36 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: might think you know what it takes to lead a 37 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,119 Speaker 1: happier life, more money, a better job, or Instagram where 38 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 1: the vacations, You're dead wrong. Yale Professor Dr Laurie Santos 39 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: has studied the science of happiness and found that many 40 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: of us do the exact opposite of what will truly 41 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: make our lives better based on the psychology course she 42 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 1: teaches it Yale, which is the most popular class in 43 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: the university's three year history. Laurie will take you through 44 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: the latest scientific research and share some surprising and inspiring 45 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: stories that will change the way you think about happiness. 46 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: I feel like everyone's ready. We're ready to come to Yale, 47 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: We're ready to take the course. I also feel they 48 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: need to confess that in the beginning of the pandemic, 49 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,959 Speaker 1: when we were in the initial you know, two weeks 50 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,119 Speaker 1: of the first lockdown, I was in a panic at home. 51 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: I hadn't had a day off like that since two 52 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: thousand three, and I didn't know what to do. And 53 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: so I thought I should take a course. And I 54 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: started looking up things on Coursera, and I signed up 55 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: for your class. And then I reorganized my spice cabinet. 56 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: I labeled every shelf in every cabinet in my house. 57 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: I ordered a new label maker so I could see 58 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: if it was as good as the old label maker 59 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: that I had, because it was the new thing everyone 60 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: was talking about in the reviews. I did everything but 61 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: sit down and take a class, let alone, a class 62 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: that could perhaps teach me to be a happier person, 63 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: And so I'm a little curious what that says to 64 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: you in terms of psychology and perhaps how apt we 65 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: all are out avoiding our own happiness. Yeah, I mean, 66 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: I think you're not alone. I won't speak to the 67 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: number of people who signed on and didn't even take 68 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 1: look at a single video. It happens, um, But yeah, no, 69 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 1: I think I think so many of us want to 70 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: do something to improve our flourishing, but we're not sure 71 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 1: what it is, right, and we gravitate towards the easy stuff, 72 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: the fun stuff. I'm gonna buy a labelmaker, you know, 73 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do whatever, often buying things or or kind 74 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: of getting stuck in hustle culture, right like I'm going 75 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: to go for the next accolade that will make me 76 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: happy or bump up my salary or something. We have 77 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: these theories about what will make us happy. But I 78 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: think one of the reasons the class is so important 79 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: is because a lot of those theories are wrong. Right, Like, 80 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: we're it's not like we're not putting work into our happiness. 81 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: We're going for it. We're just kind of going about 82 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: it the wrong way, and often at an opportunity cost 83 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: of things we could be spending our time on, so 84 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: not to get to thirty feet, But would you say 85 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 1: that that's what leads to certain chronic behaviors that cause stress, 86 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: whether it's you know, addiction, alcoholism, overspending, infidelity, you know, 87 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: the sort of list of things people do where that 88 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: you then hear them tell their story and they say, well, 89 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: this is what ruined my life. Do you do you 90 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: do you see those things correlating? Yeah, I think they 91 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: really do. I mean, I think one of the misconceptions 92 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: we have about happiness is that we're supposed to be 93 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: happy all the time, right that if I'm having some 94 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: negative emotion, I'm failing at something. I've done something wrong. 95 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: I think, especially for parents, this comes up a lot 96 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 1: where it's like if your kid is sad, it's like 97 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: I have failed that, you know, I must must fix it, 98 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: must give something, a cookie, something to fix it. And 99 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: so I think a lot of those coping behaviors you 100 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 1: talked about from addictive substances like workaholism, you know, even 101 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: refreshing your relationship when maybe you know it wasn't the 102 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: point to do that. All of those things are seeking 103 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 1: something to make us feel different and I think if 104 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: we were just able to sit with sadness, anger, frustration. 105 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: You know, you talked about the pandemic like those were 106 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: normative responses to the weird thing that happened in normative responses. Now, 107 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: you know, like nineteen months on in the midst of this, 108 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: and I think we just kind of need to allow 109 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: ourselves to go through those negative emotions more than we 110 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: quite expect. It's interesting that you say that I I 111 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: actually loved I got to have a conversation about that 112 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: in my first long term job, a show that I 113 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: worked on. My character and her partner kind of struggled 114 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: with that and had a conversation about happiness being a mood, 115 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: not a destination. And it makes me smile. And I 116 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 1: think about that, you know, being able to sort of 117 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: model the conversation for an audience, and then it makes 118 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: me think about how much I loved the movie inside, 119 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 1: you know, letting all the feelings be complete characters and 120 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: knowing that they all mattered. I thought it was such 121 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: a beautiful message to give to kids and their parents. Yeah, 122 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: and this idea, you know, I think one of the 123 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: beauties of that movie is you see that there's an 124 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: importance to sadness, that we need anger, We need these 125 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: kinds of things, and we need that message because again, 126 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: our instinct is to just shut those off, right, they 127 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: don't exist, just pretend, right. But really, what the research 128 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: shows is that to get through those emotions, to kind 129 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: of get to the other side of joy and all 130 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: the things we want to get to, we need to 131 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: make room for some of those negative emotions. We need 132 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: to allow them and maybe even sit with them sometimes, 133 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: even if it feels uncomfortable. M I have so many 134 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: questions for you, and I ran right into them instead 135 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: of asking you the first question that I normally ask people, 136 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: so I should probably do it. Now. I get to 137 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: sit across from so many people whose brains and careers 138 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by on the show, and so many people, 139 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: I mean truly around the world know you as the 140 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: Happiness Doctor. But I'm so curious about how you became 141 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: The person sitting across from me today was Lorie at 142 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: eight or nine or ten? Happy kid? What what were 143 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: you into? Curious about where did you grow up? Can 144 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: can you kind of paint a picture of your your 145 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: little life? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, So, I mean I grew 146 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: up in New Bedford, Massachusetts, which is you know, if 147 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: you read your Moby Dick, it's the town where you 148 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: know Ishmael sales off. So it used to be this 149 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: kind of rich whaling town. Now it's a lot more 150 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: lower income and stuff. I grew up, I think a 151 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 1: pretty curious kid. I don't think I knew I wanted 152 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: to be a happiness grew but I was always fascinated 153 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: with the minds, the minds of animals, the minds of people, 154 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: and things like that. Um my real interest in psychology 155 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: started when I went to college and the class that 156 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,319 Speaker 1: I wanted to get into, which was a pre law class, 157 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: because I thought for some reason I wanted to be 158 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: a lawyer. Very strange but now that I thought that, 159 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: But that class was and I didn't get a spot, 160 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: and my adviser said, well, try intropsych and so I 161 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: tried psychology. And you can say, like almost in some 162 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: ways the rest is history. I really got taken by it. 163 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,839 Speaker 1: I mean, just so just this awe of the fact 164 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: that there are these answers that we can look to 165 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: for these puzzles of the mind. You know, why we 166 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: fall in love, what happens when we sleep, why we 167 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 1: make the dumb decisions we do, right, Like, there's a 168 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: whole scientific approaches to understanding these things, and I was 169 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: just really taken by you know, I started in doing 170 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: research even as a college student and kind of been 171 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: on track ever since. But for most of my time 172 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: as a psychologist, I studied what I call my day 173 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: job question, which is sort of what makes the human 174 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: mind special? Um. I was really interested in human uniqueness, 175 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: and I studied that by looking at monkeys and looking 176 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: at dogs and studying how they make sense of the world. 177 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 1: Monkeys are a nice population to do that with because 178 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: they're kind of our evolutionary ancestors, so they give us 179 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: some evolutionary hints into what was going on in the 180 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: human mind. And dogs are useful just because like they 181 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: live with us. They're like in our houses with us, right, 182 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: you know, they tell us how the environment shaped us. 183 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: So it's kind of a nature nurture combo. When you 184 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: say you were setting human uniqueness, is that related to 185 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: humans as a unique species, you know, a unique group 186 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: on Earth? Or does that reference how unique we all 187 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 1: are in relation to each other? Or or is it both? 188 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: I think a little bit of both. It's it's more 189 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: the former question, right. I mean, it's this question of, like, 190 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: you know, why are you and I doing this podcast 191 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: over this technology of the internet and zoom and computers 192 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: with microphones using human language, trying to teach people about 193 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: happiness this idea of pedagogy, when literally no other species 194 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: is doing anything like this, like slime molds and binobos 195 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: and dogs, they're all very similar to us in terms 196 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: of their biology. But why aren't they doing any of 197 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: the kind of crazy creative things that humans do? And 198 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: what like ability is? What kind of cognitive abilities, how 199 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: we think, how we make decisions? What what's different about 200 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: us that we get to do that stuff and they don't? 201 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: And so so that was my day job for like 202 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 1: several decades, and I published in that and that was 203 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: the main thing, and the interest and happiness came out 204 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: of a new role that I took on Yale's campus. 205 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: I became a ahead of college on campus, which is 206 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: this kind of funny term for a faculty member who 207 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: lives on campus with students. Um So I live in 208 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: a residential college. It's kind of like a dorm or 209 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: if you know Harry Potter, it's kind of like a 210 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: you know, like Griffin door slitherin kind of like a 211 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: you know, school within a school kind of thing. And 212 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: so I became this head of college. I moved on 213 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: campus with students, and all of a sudden, I saw 214 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: this college student mental health crisis up close and personal. 215 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: It was watching students still and watching students experience extreme depression, suicidality, 216 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: panic attacks, even students who weren't experiencing clinical mental health 217 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: issues we're talking about. You know, I'd ask, how, how 218 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 1: how's the week going? You know, I was like, oh, 219 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: if I could just get to mid terms, right, you know, 220 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: I'm so stressed out. And it was I was just 221 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: watching them sort of fast forward their life because they 222 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: were so ground down by hustle culture, and so the 223 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: happiness and truest kind of came out of like, well, 224 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: what can I do to help these students? They were 225 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: just struggling so much with their mental health. And sometimes 226 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: when I say that people, I worry everyone listening is like, well, 227 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: I'm not going to send my kid to you, you know, 228 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: like Yale sounds terrible, but it's not Yale. I mean nationally, 229 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:21,319 Speaker 1: right now, over of college students across the US report 230 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: being too depressed to function. Most days, more than sixt 231 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: of college students say that they feel overwhelming anxiety, and 232 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: more than one intense says that they've seriously considered suicide 233 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: in the last year. So if I'm teaching a college 234 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 1: classroom with a hundred kids, that means a few of them, 235 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: maybe ten of them, are thinking, you know, that's terrifying, 236 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: you know. So so yeah, so I just realized, like 237 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: somebody had to do something, and so I kind of 238 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: retrained in this work on the Science of Happiness in 239 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: order to teach a class to students, really to give 240 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: students strategies of like, hey, you know, their research shows 241 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: you can do stuff right, like you don't you don't 242 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: have to feel this way. Their strategies you can use 243 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: to feel better. And that's kind of when the class 244 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: went a little bit viral on campus. It was a 245 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: new class. I expected to teach, you know, thirty or 246 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 1: forty kids, but I walked into a classroom with a 247 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: quarter of the entire Yale campus in it. Over a 248 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 1: thousand students showed up the first day of class. So 249 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: that was a little surreal and weird, but it showed 250 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: that the students were they were voting with their feet, 251 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: they don't like this culture of feeling stressed and anxious. 252 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: And I think they were really they really resonated with 253 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: this idea of an evidence based approach. I wasn't just 254 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: giving them a bunch of platitudes. I'm like, hey, here's 255 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: what this study says. You know, look at this neuroscience paper. 256 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: Like they were really seeing what the science showed they 257 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: could do to feel better. And that feels thrilling because 258 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: so many people everywhere are talking about overwhelmed and anxiety. 259 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I spent last week moving the week you 260 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: and I are talking anyhow, I spent my last week 261 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: moving and worth noting moving third biggest life stressor after 262 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: death of a family member and divorce right after that. Right, 263 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: we don't realize moving can be so And it was 264 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: by far the the most organized move I've ever had, 265 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: and this sort of joyous experience and all of these things. 266 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 1: And yet today, which was sort of my first day 267 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: back into normal work life, I just I woke up 268 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: ten minutes before my alarm, gripped with anxiety at a headache, 269 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: and I just thought, what is what? What it's done? 270 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: Why do I feel this way now? And I almost 271 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: got the sense that it was like all the adrenaline 272 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: and stress was leaving my body and just making me 273 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: feel terrible. Is that a thing that happens or do 274 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: we just talk about that like it happens. Yeah, well, 275 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, anxiety, stress, all this stuff. Like 276 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: you know, we are physical beings, right, Like this is 277 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: going to exist in us in some rich way. You know, 278 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: when you are feeling anxious, when you go through a 279 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: life stressor and yes, you know again moving it's worth 280 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: mentioning is huge life stressor that comes with an activation 281 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: of your or flight response. This like part of your 282 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: nervous system which reacts as though there's like a tiger 283 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: about to jump out and grab you. So different things happen. 284 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: Your body like sends like adrenaline to all your systems, 285 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: so like your body is like ready to flee away 286 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: or you're getting ready to like fight or kind of 287 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: get attacked, right, Like, it's not a good feeling. And 288 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: when you turn on your fight or flight system, that's 289 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: at the expense of a different system, which is known 290 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: as our rest and digest system. Like that's the system 291 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: we use for like digesting our food and like sleeping properly, 292 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: and like our sexual functioning like we basically, whenever we're 293 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 1: under stress, we kind of shut that system off. And 294 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: that works because the fight or flight system was built 295 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: to like get turned on, like oh, tiger, you turn 296 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: it on and then you run away from the tiger 297 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: and you're good. But modern life has these moments where 298 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: you know, you probably had to plan moving for like 299 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: three weeks or maybe longer. Right, Like, you've been activating 300 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: that system straight for way longer than that system was 301 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: ever meant to be active for, you know, so even 302 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: you know, maybe when it's over, when you finally have 303 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: time to process, your body is like, dude, we are 304 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: like bumping all of these stress hormones, like what's going on, 305 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: and yeah, your tummy is gonna hurt. You're not going 306 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: to be able to sleep, like you know, that's that's 307 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: just the biology what we're wired to do. Wow, I 308 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: am so excited to get into all of this stuff. 309 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: I think it's fascinating that you've found your way here 310 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: because you were living among your students and seeing their 311 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: experiences in real time. That's so incredibly rare. And I 312 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: think about what could happen if CEOs of major companies 313 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: spent time with their at mid level workers with their 314 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: largest the largest portions of their workforce. If you know, 315 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: I always wonder what it would be like for me, 316 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: And you know, my profession always being away somewhere, moving 317 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: by the way all the time, UM to go work 318 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: on a set somewhere, and the powers that be are 319 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: never there, but they have expectations set for those of 320 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: us that are, So you know, we'll do sixteen, seventeen, 321 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: eighteen hour days. You know, the crew has even worse 322 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: turnarounds than we do. Everything's very high stress. And I think, 323 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: you know, I wonder if the people demanding X number 324 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: of pages get filmed per day we're here, if they 325 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: would agree anymore. And I guess it's really striking me 326 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: that that's what's missing in so many spaces, is that 327 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: the people who could offer a solution are often not 328 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: in the space that needs problem solving. So I think, 329 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: what an amazing moment it was for your students to 330 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: have had that, and obviously for it to change the 331 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 1: course of of your life. When you think about being 332 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: a child, curious and and all of the things that 333 00:17:55,359 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: that you were, does your experience with your udents that's 334 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: now given you a larger lens for all of us. Really, 335 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: does it in any way make you nostalgic for your 336 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: childhood years or versions of your child self? Yeah, I 337 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: mean definitely, And in fact, this is something I've been 338 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: working on in a recent episode of my podcast. I'm 339 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:19,919 Speaker 1: trying to find more fun, and that's caused me to 340 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: look back a lot at my youth. I was like, 341 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: I used to have fun all the time. I used 342 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: to just do goofy stuff. I don't you know, maybe 343 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: it's a little bit of a different generation, but I 344 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: didn't grow up in the same generation of you know, 345 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: helicopter parented kids who are shuffled off to soccer practice. 346 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: I just kind of goofed around outside and did whatever 347 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: and whatever creative pursuit came. And you know, I've been 348 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: reflecting a lot on how that seems to be a 349 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: different childhood experience than many kids today have definitely had 350 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: a different college experience, and a lot of my college 351 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: students have where they're just so ingrained in work, work, 352 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: work all the time. Um, I just came from a 353 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: meeting with a student who was saying, you know, this semester, 354 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: I'm going to do something different. I'm going to take 355 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: at least two hours off on some and I was like, 356 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: two hours off on Sunday is not enough, you know, 357 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: And so they're kind of like slammed with work. But 358 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: even as I reflect on my own adult life, I think, 359 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: you know, there's there's ways that many of us as 360 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: adults have lost something important about, you know, so many 361 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: of our childlike qualities, you know, like did you ask 362 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 1: your listeners? When was the last time you just spent 363 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: a whole day doing something fun and didn't feel guilty 364 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: about it? Right, Like, didn't have that moment of anxiety 365 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: like I shouldn't be doing this, should be doing this? 366 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: I feel really guilty, right Like, you know, I think 367 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 1: so many of us lose that, and I think we 368 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: need stronger strategies to get back to that, because again, 369 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 1: one of the things we know about having fun in 370 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: that kind of curious childlike way is like you're reducing 371 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: your stress hormones. You're literally changing your hormonal balance by 372 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: having fun, and like, of course you are, because you're 373 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: putting your body, you know, and that rest and digest 374 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: fund state, and that feels good. That's such an important point. 375 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: When was the last time you had fun and didn't 376 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: feel guilty about it. Yeah, I think, you know, we 377 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: just assumed that we're supposed to be working. We we 378 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: kind of I joke with my students that we often 379 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: spend time shooting all over ourselves, get it, like shooting 380 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: all ourselves? Yeah, and you know, I think we do 381 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 1: that with even our leisure time, right, Like we finally, 382 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: you know it so overwhelmed. We never get a break. 383 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: We finally get a break and either were too burned 384 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: out to do anything fun. We just want to like 385 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: PLoP down and like do nothing, you know, like just 386 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: mindlessly click through channels or something. Or we we have 387 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: the opportunity to do something fun, but we feel so 388 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: guilty about it that we can't like shut off the 389 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: stress hormones because the whole time we have this voice 390 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: about like don't you have something to do Monday? Like 391 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: did you send that email? You know, it's hard to 392 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: even be present in those activities, and you're right thinking 393 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: about what you said about your childhood being free enough 394 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: to just play. It was different. We didn't have devices 395 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,719 Speaker 1: attached to us that we're binging and tinging and asking 396 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: for our attention all the time, and so much that 397 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: we were supposed to keep up with it was slower, 398 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 1: and I am and I think we we've lost something 399 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 1: as adults not having that. I definitely I think children 400 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: have lost something not having that. Now, have you ever 401 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 1: spoken about that with your family? Because I imagine as 402 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: as shocking as it is for us in our generation, 403 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: it must be even more shocking for our parents to 404 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: look at people the age of your college students and think, 405 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: what is their life? Have they ever known a life 406 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: without this? And I think, you know what's funny is 407 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: sometimes we get, in an odd way, the opposite reaction, right. 408 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot, you know, if you look 409 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 1: at the news media, there's a lot made of like, oh, 410 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: these snowflakes, you know, these like students, And you know, 411 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: I hear that terminology and I sometimes ask like, well, 412 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: who do we think made them snowflakes? Like it wasn't 413 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 1: like they plopped here and chose that, right, They were 414 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: kind of, you know, faced with a situation that's really 415 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: different than ours. You know, if I grew up with 416 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: cell phones binging all the time and expectations about perfection 417 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: and getting into these perfect Ivy League universities, right, like, 418 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,880 Speaker 1: I think it's like there's a reason they kind of 419 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 1: wind up being so stressed out. Yeah, the the just 420 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: the difference, the divide. I I even remember when the 421 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: initial you know, no Kia phone that you had the 422 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: text on T nine like dick h you know, my 423 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: grandfather just was was so appalled. You know, what do 424 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: you need that thing for? You just be here, make 425 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 1: a plan with people for the weekend. It really is 426 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,199 Speaker 1: such a different time, and I wonder I know this 427 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: has felt around the world, but it seems to be 428 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 1: especially intense in this country with the as you said, 429 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: the the expectations of Ivy League schools and Wall Street 430 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: jobs and this sort of you know, American exceptionalism. And 431 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: my father is an immigrant and my mother's mother was 432 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: an immigrant, and we talked so much sort of about 433 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 1: the differences in what's going on in our communities and 434 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: different portions of our family around the world. And I 435 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: know that you were born to by national family and 436 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: the your father's side of the family came from Cabo Verde. Correct, Yeah, 437 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah, So I'm curious did that multinational familial 438 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: experience infuse different aspects of culture and your upbringing than 439 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: these issues we're seeing ourselves swirling inside of here in 440 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: specific today. Yeah, I mean I think you know, when 441 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: you grow up in a multinational family, like you get 442 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 1: I think you get a few things. One is you 443 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: recognize that, like nothing said in Stone, that there are 444 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: other ways to do things that you know, like you know, 445 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 1: we college when you're sick in the side of the family, 446 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 1: but in the side of the family you have a 447 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: beer or something. You know, like you kind of get 448 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: like a little bit of different cultural worlds. And I 449 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: think what that can show you is just that there 450 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,880 Speaker 1: are other paths. There are there ways. And I think 451 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: if you look at a lot of traditional paths, you know, 452 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,160 Speaker 1: traditional cultural paths or even traditional religious paths and things, 453 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: what you find is that they look different from the 454 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 1: modern version, right, like much more infused with social connection, 455 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: much more infused with ritual, much less focused on individuals, 456 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: and more focused on the family, the community and these things. 457 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: And in some ways, those quote unquote old school like 458 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 1: cultural practices, those seem to be honoring the kinds of 459 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: practices we know to be good for well being, right, 460 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: you know, this act of like promoting social connection at 461 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 1: all costs, Like my dad grew up and you know, 462 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: you go visit your mom every day, you know that 463 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: every weekend, like we went in to visit my grandma, 464 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: you know, at least once a week, right, And like 465 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: those practices can feel outdated sometimes or unnecessary in the 466 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: modern you know, the fast paced, modern world. But the 467 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: science shows is that they're they're often there for a reason. 468 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: When you dig into some of these older practices, they 469 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: tend to be the things that are really promoting our 470 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: well being. And I think sometimes in the modern world 471 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: we lose these sometimes at our peril. The ritual that 472 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: you mentioned, the community, I do really feel like it's 473 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: something we miss and I would imagine part of it 474 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 1: is because we've moved around so much as a culture. 475 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: We're so much more mobile than we used to be, 476 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: you know. I I grew up across the country from 477 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: my grandfather. We made regular trips every year. But I 478 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: I love our ability to move around and experience each 479 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: other's worlds. And and I also, on the flip side, 480 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: worry sometimes that we're losing our connections, you know, our 481 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: our threads, and I look forward to hearing what ways 482 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: you might suggest that people create them just before we 483 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: move into the present research from your story, I'm also 484 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: struck by the connection, which I think is pretty rare. 485 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: You know, I've interviewed so many people who have gone 486 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: to some of the Ivy League schools that you're talking 487 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: about and who have studied in fascinating places around the world. 488 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 1: It's it's pretty rare to have a guest whose undergrad 489 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 1: and graduate education happened at the same place. And I'm 490 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: I'm struck by it because we're talking about places and 491 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: routines and ritual if you will. And you went to 492 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: Harvard and stayed there through a master's and a doctorate. 493 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: What do you think drew you to that place and 494 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 1: what do you think kept you there? Yeah? Well, I 495 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: mean I think Harvard is a good school. Lots of 496 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: people apply, you know, it's like the reasonable destination university. 497 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: But part of it was that I was focused on 498 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: this question, is the studying this idea of like humans 499 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 1: being unique, and particularly studying at the time, I was 500 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: studying monkeys, and you know, there are not many like 501 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,199 Speaker 1: different laboratories around the world that we're doing that, and 502 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: so I wound up sticking a ound in part just 503 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: because that was the lab that was doing this stuff, 504 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: and I, you know, really like the area. I kind 505 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 1: of really had fallen in love with Cambridge in Boston, 506 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: and so it did feel like how I do feel like, 507 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: you know, I kind of tend to be an old 508 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: soul in that sentence, right, you know, I stayed for 509 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: a really long time in the same spot where I 510 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: did my undergrad and graduate work, in the same spot. 511 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 1: I've been at Yale now since two thousand three, which 512 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: makes me feel very old. And that's kind of rare 513 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: and academia to to stick around in one spot for 514 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: like so long. And so I think I have seen 515 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: that putting down roots can be really powerful, and that 516 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: that transience can feel yucky, and especially that transience you know, 517 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: as an academic, that's true, really right, you know, people again, 518 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: they do their dissertation in one spot and then they 519 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: move on to a different place, or they you know, 520 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: start off at one university as a professor but might 521 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: not get tenure and then have to move. And so 522 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: you know, you really are in this culture where it 523 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 1: feels like people aren't necessarily going to stay for the 524 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: long haul. And I worry about the fact that that's 525 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: country beating to some less flourishing than we could have 526 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: in the academy. M Yeah, you don't have a chance 527 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 1: to grow deep roots. Yeah, and what we know is 528 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: like the deep roots matter a lot, I think, you know. Again, 529 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: a misconception we have is like we want to keep 530 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: all our options open, right, like we want we don't 531 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: want to get stuck anywhere. How can I live in 532 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 1: one place in this you know, big wide world for 533 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 1: our whole lives. But what we know is that people 534 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 1: who commit, people who are dedicated to one thing, people 535 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: who put their roots down, like they tend to be 536 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: happier for a bunch of reasons. Right. Once, once you 537 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: decide you can really engage with a place, you learn 538 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: about it in a different way. Once you decide, Like 539 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: all the other choices that weigh so heavily on our 540 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: minds all the time, they're gone because you just picked one, right, 541 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: And so we we forget that sometimes those choices can 542 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: hurt us. And I get it, you know, I have 543 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: the same intuition. You know, if you ask me, do 544 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: you want a Netflix with ten shows or do you 545 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: want a Netflix with like a Netflix number of shows, 546 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: I'm like the Netflix number of shows, like obviously more 547 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: choices better, you know, I don't want to like get 548 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: pinned down, but then if you look at my actual 549 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: happiness when I'm like, you know, scrolling, scrolling and scrolling 550 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: and scrolling through like billions of movies, I'm not feeling happy. 551 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: I'm feeling apathetic. I'm feeling fomo for some movie I 552 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: didn't pick, and so on. Just the act of choosing 553 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: can reduce some of that. When you think about roots 554 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: and the kinds of choices and perspectives on choice, you're 555 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,959 Speaker 1: you're able to advise us on. I guess the question 556 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: moves in two directions going back. I wonder if you 557 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: had a favorite you know, professor or mentor at Harvard 558 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: and what you might have learned from them that now you, 559 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: having been at Yale for all of these years since 560 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: two thousand three, might be passing on to your students. 561 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: Each Each place feels like it has a very nice 562 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: root system. M yeah, I mean, and that's like the 563 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: beauty of these institutions. And there's some problems with you know, 564 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: three hundred year old institution, like they're not built on 565 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: the structures of social justice that we'd love them to 566 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: be built on today, but they have these amazing deep roots. 567 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: You know. I remember being at Harvard and realizing, like 568 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: you know, Kennedy was here. You know, like these like 569 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 1: if Emerson was here, you know, like these famous people 570 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: that walked through the same halls that I did, and 571 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: the kind of excitement and kind of interesting pressure that 572 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: came with that, it was really cool. But in terms 573 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: of favorite professors, you know, I think back to taking 574 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: a really early class in psychology, I think I was 575 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: only a sophomore at the time, with a professor by 576 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: the name of Nancy Campwasher. She taught at Harvard at 577 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: the time at the time now she teaches at M 578 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: I T. And she was just like so cool, you know, 579 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: at the time, like a really young professor, and she 580 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: studied neuroscience, which like in the nineties was this kind 581 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: of new cool thing, and she was just kind of 582 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: really interestingly badass. Like you know, it's just like the 583 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: kind of professor that I really wanted to be, or 584 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: the person I want like when I thought, like when 585 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: I want to grow up, I want to be like 586 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: Nancy Campisher. And it's it's interesting and humbling to think 587 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: that I could potentially be having that sort of effect 588 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: on students, you know, when I hear that I have 589 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: other students who were college students with me and worked 590 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: in my lab and then now have gone on to 591 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: their own professorships. And to see that they made that 592 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: choice because they saw that inspiration in me is like 593 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: just incredibly humbling and so touching. So now I'm like 594 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: a academic grandma, you know, because my my students have 595 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: their own students at different university and so kind of 596 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: getting my academic progeny out there. It's really cool. I 597 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: think about it as an academic ripple effect. Really, you know, 598 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: was the beginning for you the way that it can move. 599 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: Do you feel like she was your biggest supporter in 600 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: the early years of your work. Yeah, I mean, honestly, 601 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to have lots of supporters, but 602 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: she's definitely someone you know, I've stayed close with and 603 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: stayed in touch with and expressed to her that she'd 604 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: such an impact on my work, and so that's pretty cool. Now, 605 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,719 Speaker 1: that's so neat. So when you think about the forward 606 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: end of the root system being at Yale and the 607 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: light bulb moment of seeing what was happening with so 608 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: many students, and I think about it as the micro 609 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: example of the macro problem we see, as we mentioned earlier, 610 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: So much stress and overwhelmed and burnout, and I mean, 611 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: it's it's an unbelievable experience to feel overscheduled to the 612 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: minute and burnt out all the time, and like you 613 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: don't have enough time to eat and so you drink 614 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: coffee all day and then eat fast food at night. 615 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I know there's so many people nodding along 616 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: as you are and as I am. We're all just 617 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: it's a nod party today. I know the students were 618 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: the spark, but what was what was the gateway into 619 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: moving into happiness research? Yeah, well, I'm and I think 620 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: you know, part of it was the spark was the students, 621 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: but I think, you know, if I'm being honest, you know, 622 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: another thing that really scared me was that I saw 623 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: a lot of their behavior in myself. I'd meet with 624 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: them and be like, what's going on? Like, oh, if 625 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 1: I could only just get to the weekend, you know 626 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: what I mean? And part of me would think, man, 627 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: you're nineteen, you want to fast forward to mid terms, 628 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: like you know, you only got one shot at being 629 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: a sophomore in college. Just like love it and savor it. 630 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: But then I was realizing that when they were saying 631 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: that I was saying, like, yeah, man, if we could 632 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 1: just fast forward to in terms, like we'd all be happier. 633 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: Like I wasn't making good choices. I was over scheduling myself, 634 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: like I was kind of feeling burnt out and feeling overwhelmed, 635 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: like I was also for going sleep, for going social connection, 636 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: to just pack my schedule to the brim. And so 637 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: I realized I wasn't being a good example for them, 638 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: and so part of learning these strategies was for them, 639 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: but also part of it was really for me, so 640 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: that I could have strategies to do better for myself, 641 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: but then also to be a good role model to 642 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: my students. What do you think is the truth about 643 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: happiness that takes most people by surprise the first time 644 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: they learned it? And is it the same one that 645 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: took you by surprise the first time you learned it? Interesting? Yeah, 646 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: I think for me and definitely for my students, is 647 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,879 Speaker 1: just this idea that you know, we think circumstances are 648 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 1: the kinds of things that make us happy, that if 649 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: we were rich, had the perfect job and or the 650 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: perfect part, or the perfect accolade or the perfect grades 651 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: or what have you, that that would make us happy. 652 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: But the studies show that by and large, circumstances don't 653 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,760 Speaker 1: really matter for happiness all that much. And it's important 654 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: to say a caveat right, Like, you know, if you're 655 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: you don't have enough money to put food on the table, 656 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 1: or roof of your head, if you're in like a 657 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: traumatic abusive relationship, yes, switching your circumstances around is going 658 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: to matter. But for a lot, if not most of 659 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: the people listening to this podcast who can put food 660 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:56,280 Speaker 1: on the table, you know, are in fine relationships whatever, 661 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 1: Like changing your circumstances isn't going to matter. More like 662 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: switching your job is probably not gonna matter if you 663 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 1: can put food on the table, right, Like buying some 664 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: new gadget is not going to make you as happy 665 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 1: as you think. And you know, in some ways we 666 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: know that it's kind of in some ways common wisdom, 667 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: but it's not like common practice. Right when I'm having 668 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: a bad day, I want to like change something, like 669 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: maybe I should change my job, or maybe I should 670 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: buy myself something or treat myself or whatever. And the 671 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: research seems to show that none of those things things 672 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: seem to work, or at least they don't seem to 673 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: work as well or as powerfully as we think. In 674 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: other words, we think changing these circumstances will really change 675 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: our happiness a lot and for a long time. And 676 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: if anything, it changes it, if it changes it at all, 677 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 1: it changes it only for a tiny bit, and for 678 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 1: a very short time. You know. When the package arrives, 679 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, my new whatever, There's a moment of like, 680 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 1: but then that will always like, you know, thirty seconds, 681 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: and then I'm back to my email, you know, much 682 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: more quickly. I feel like my brain is exploding with 683 00:35:55,680 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: little fireworks of thoughts and questions and I'm have answers 684 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: for some of them. If I hadn't chickened out and 685 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: I had taken the class, which now I feel like 686 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: this is the swift kick in the ask that I 687 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: need to do it version today, the private, private tutorial. 688 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 1: But well, I mean that would be heaven. But I do. 689 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: I love homework. I love a curriculum. That's the thing 690 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: I missed the most about school is a syllabus. So 691 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 1: I'm into it. Uh. I actually realized a couple of 692 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: years ago diving into my own mental health and you know, 693 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 1: really wanting to learn tools and and kind of expand 694 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: my ability to understand myself and others. I loved doing 695 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 1: traditional talk therapy, but getting into a coaching program I 696 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: loved even more. I was like, oh, there's homework. I 697 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: have to answer questions and write things and fill out 698 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,399 Speaker 1: of it. I love this, So I have anyhow, that's 699 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 1: very tangentle, but I'm I'm I'm very down for the class. 700 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:05,839 Speaker 1: I I'm curious how you began once you started researching 701 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: in this area specifically, how did you begin to put 702 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 1: together out of this world of research, this breadth of information. 703 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 1: How did you begin to create a curriculum? Where do 704 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: you start with something like that? Yeah, well there there 705 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: had been other classes like this at other places, so 706 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: I did kind of stand on the shoulder of giants 707 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: kind of thing. But the way I conceptualized it was 708 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 1: the first thing we have to do for students is 709 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: help them with the misconceptions, right. And I think this 710 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: is one of the big puzzles. That's something I talked 711 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: about on my podcast, The Happiness Lab a lot, which 712 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: is our slogan is like your mind lies to you 713 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 1: about what makes you happy, right, you know, the ideas 714 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 1: you you read like you're dead wrong, right, And so 715 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: we really started with the misconceptions what are the things 716 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 1: you think are going to make you happy but don't 717 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,359 Speaker 1: really work? And we walk through things like the perfect job, 718 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: of the perfect salary, the perfect grades, lots of likes 719 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: on social media, like just buying things, materialism, Like we 720 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: just kind of go through all the misconceptions first, and 721 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: then I think if you learn that stuff, then you 722 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: get curious about like, Okay, why do our minds, Like 723 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:15,839 Speaker 1: why are they so dumb? Like why do they suck 724 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: so badly? Why did they get it wrong? And so 725 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: then we kind of walk through some of I call 726 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: them dumb features of the mind that kind of lead 727 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: us astray, and then we turned to like, okay, if 728 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: those don't work, what are the things that really allow 729 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: you to experience happiness? What are the things that are 730 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:32,800 Speaker 1: really going to work? And then in the end we 731 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: kind of turned to like, Okay, that's all well and good, 732 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: but you know, how do I put this into practice 733 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: right in the modern world where we're feeling so time 734 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: strapped and overwhelmed and so on, Like, how can I 735 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: make these behavior changes so that they'll stick so miss memory? 736 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,400 Speaker 1: That's a really interesting idea when you talk about the 737 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 1: way that your mind lies to you and misleads you. 738 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: I'm curious about how missmemory fits in because you're exploring 739 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 1: both memory and miss memory and the current season of 740 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab, and as you're referring to the way 741 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 1: that you're unpacking all of these things, I wonder what 742 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: nostalgia has to do with that, because when I think 743 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: about some of the behaviors we're talking about. You know, 744 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,759 Speaker 1: you said the package comes and three minutes later, I'm 745 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: back to email. Do you think nostalgia has to do 746 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 1: with our desire to find something? Well, oh, remember when 747 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:30,840 Speaker 1: I was a kid and I got that sweater and 748 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:32,399 Speaker 1: it made me so happy? Maybe now if I get 749 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: a sweater. Is there is there something about nostalgia that's 750 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 1: mixed into these lies about what makes us happy? Or 751 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 1: or do those operate in sort of separate verticals? Yeah, 752 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I think there are real mistakes of memory 753 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: and prediction that lead us astray when we're thinking about happiness. 754 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 1: The biggest one is that there's lots of evidence that 755 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 1: we're bad at predicting what emotions were going to experience 756 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 1: when something happens, not the like direction of the emotions 757 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: like we know, you know, root now probably negative, like 758 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,800 Speaker 1: you know, when the lottery, probably pretty good, right, you know, 759 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: we have the valence, right, but we don't really understand 760 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,399 Speaker 1: the magnitude or the duration. And that means that like 761 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,239 Speaker 1: we're just really bad at predicting, right. You know, So 762 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,760 Speaker 1: you get you're a college student, you got the perfect grade. 763 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 1: What's that going to do to your happiness? A lot 764 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 1: of people predict like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna be 765 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,280 Speaker 1: so happy, like it's going to be amazing, but you forget, 766 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: like there's other stuff going on. There's a party you 767 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 1: didn't get into and the other like it gives a 768 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: blip of happiness, but not as big as you thought 769 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,319 Speaker 1: and not for as long as you thought. But then 770 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 1: the reverse, you know, you're a college student predicting what's 771 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,279 Speaker 1: gonna happen if I get a bad grade? You know, 772 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:37,799 Speaker 1: you think about that and you think, oh, I'm going 773 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: to feel so terrible, like this is going to be awful, 774 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:42,720 Speaker 1: like it's going to ruin my week. But like, actually 775 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: you get the bad grade, there's a million other things 776 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,240 Speaker 1: going on. You immediately rationalize that you have all these 777 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 1: like kind of process that kick in they say, well 778 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 1: that was stupid. The professor sucks, like I don't care, 779 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 1: you know, like you just don't feel as bad about 780 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: it as you think. And this is a problem of 781 00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,920 Speaker 1: what's called affective forecasting. Like we're just bad at forecast 782 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,279 Speaker 1: saying what our emotions are going to look like. But 783 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:04,360 Speaker 1: the key is that even when we get evidence that 784 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 1: we were wrong, you know, like, oh, like I made 785 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 1: that prediction about my grade, but I'm kind of fine, 786 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,879 Speaker 1: Like that doesn't really update in our memory. And that's 787 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: I think a spot where memory leads us astray, like 788 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 1: you know, nostalgia kind of lead us astray in a 789 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 1: different way. But like the key is that, like our 790 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,880 Speaker 1: memories don't really pick up when when we kind of 791 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,320 Speaker 1: got through something fine, but we forget that this possible, 792 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: you know, it don't mean where I see this A 793 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 1: lot is in like breakups. You know, your first breakup, 794 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,279 Speaker 1: you you'd be forgiven for thinking I'm never going to 795 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,360 Speaker 1: get over this. I'm gonna love this person forever, and 796 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, I'll be sad and depressed and eating ice 797 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 1: cream out at the car end forever. Like gradually you 798 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: get better, but then breakup number two comes in you 799 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,360 Speaker 1: don't say well with breakup number one, like you know, 800 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 1: got fine. You know it took a while, but I 801 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,080 Speaker 1: was okay. You just think, no, this one is different, 802 00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:50,880 Speaker 1: This one I'm never going to recover from. And so 803 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,279 Speaker 1: we kind of our memory doesn't register our resilience. Our 804 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 1: memory doesn't register how fast we get over things. And 805 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,759 Speaker 1: that means that we just don't realize that we're as 806 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 1: resilient as who we are. It means we don't sometimes 807 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:05,879 Speaker 1: take risks that we could be taking because we're so 808 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 1: scared of how things will go, because we think back 809 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: and be like, oh, everything went, so, you know, we 810 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 1: don't remember that things went better than we expected. That's 811 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: so interesting that we underestimate our own resilience. Big fireworks, 812 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 1: big brain fireworks on that one. I wonder about creating 813 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 1: a better relationship to that resilience, or or even just 814 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:36,840 Speaker 1: to our own ability to accurately perceive our feelings and 815 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:42,200 Speaker 1: our circumstance. You speak a lot about the three blessings exercise. 816 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,880 Speaker 1: Is that designed to kind of put us back in 817 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,920 Speaker 1: right relationship with how we're feeling and what's going on 818 00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 1: around us. Yeah, so the three Blessings exercise sounds really 819 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: maybe powerful. It Really it's the write down three things 820 00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:59,399 Speaker 1: that are going well, like write down things three things 821 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,839 Speaker 1: you're grateful for. And then I say that, and you're like, oh, 822 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: what's that going to do? But but this, the research 823 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:06,799 Speaker 1: shows that that does a lot. In fact, if you 824 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 1: do that every night for two weeks, the research suggests 825 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,480 Speaker 1: you'll show significant improvements in your well being even just 826 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 1: after two weeks of doing it. And the reason is 827 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: that it's kind of redirecting your attention what you're paying 828 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,760 Speaker 1: attention to to, like the good things in life. Naturally, 829 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,239 Speaker 1: our brains find the negative, right, which makes sense over evolution. Right, 830 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 1: if you're walking through a forest, you don't need to 831 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 1: notice the flowers, but you do need to notice the 832 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: tigers who are going to attack you, right, And so 833 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 1: our brain is ready to find the threats, the negatives, 834 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 1: the spots where we should be scared or anxious or frustrated. 835 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,399 Speaker 1: It's not prone to find the joyous things. But like 836 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:43,520 Speaker 1: with just a little bit of training, you can get 837 00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:45,800 Speaker 1: a lot better at that. And that's I think what 838 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: the three Blessings exercise does. It kind of tunes your 839 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,640 Speaker 1: mind to some of the good stuff. In one of 840 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,719 Speaker 1: my recent podcast episodes. I interviewed this guy, Ross Gay, 841 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,359 Speaker 1: who's a poet who wrote a book called the Book 842 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,719 Speaker 1: of Delights, UM, and he decided for every day for 843 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,080 Speaker 1: a year, he'd write an essay about something that delighted him, 844 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 1: and he would kind of call it out in the world. 845 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:08,880 Speaker 1: When he saw something delightful, he'd yelled delight and he 846 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 1: sticks his finger in the air, and he said his 847 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 1: mind got tuned for delights. At first he was worried 848 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,479 Speaker 1: he wouldn't be able to find them, but over time 849 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:17,959 Speaker 1: it was like, that's a delight, and that's a delight, 850 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:19,520 Speaker 1: and which one am I going to write about today? 851 00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 1: He'd basically like completely retuned like a tuning fork, what 852 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,000 Speaker 1: he paid attention to and switched to the positive stuff. 853 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:29,440 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, we can all Maybe we're 854 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,120 Speaker 1: not going to write an essay every single day about 855 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:32,520 Speaker 1: what delights us the last maybe you have a lot 856 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,680 Speaker 1: of time on your hands, that'd be great, UM, But 857 00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 1: you know, all of us, can you know, scribble down 858 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:39,480 Speaker 1: three things that we find as blessings in our lives 859 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,240 Speaker 1: can be pretty fast and have a really profound effect. 860 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,600 Speaker 1: One of my favorite episode arcs of your podcast is 861 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 1: one where you discussed giving yourself a fun intervention, and 862 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,640 Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier that you're really trying to lean into 863 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 1: fun and play. So can you explain that concept as 864 00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,319 Speaker 1: well a bit to our listeners, because I I think 865 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:06,360 Speaker 1: everyone is is jotting down, you know, this practice of 866 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:10,279 Speaker 1: three moments of gratitude. Um, it's interesting. One of my 867 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,359 Speaker 1: best friends and I did that for a while. Um. 868 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,960 Speaker 1: She was postpartum and having a tough time, and I 869 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:17,839 Speaker 1: just said, Okay, every day, we're going to text each 870 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,160 Speaker 1: other three things were grateful for. And we did it 871 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,799 Speaker 1: for I don't know two months, and it was great, 872 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,000 Speaker 1: and then we got busy, and then she was feeling better, 873 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,840 Speaker 1: and and I'm realizing in this moment that we should 874 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,319 Speaker 1: just do it forever. Um. So I'm I'm saying that 875 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,960 Speaker 1: I suppose for accountability, and also to say I tested 876 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,680 Speaker 1: this on myself and it does work totally and I 877 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:43,640 Speaker 1: just forgot. But I this feels fun to realize that 878 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,600 Speaker 1: I've guinea picked this on myself. And and so I 879 00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,759 Speaker 1: want to know about your fun intervention because basically I 880 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,680 Speaker 1: would also like to volunteers tribute for that awesome. I 881 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 1: think we need as many fun volunteers as possible. Well, 882 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 1: if you want to sign up to be a fun volunteer, 883 00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 1: you should check out the website how to Have fun 884 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,960 Speaker 1: dot com, which actually is not mine, but the journalist 885 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:09,600 Speaker 1: Katherine Price's website. Um she's doing. She's writing a book 886 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,759 Speaker 1: called The Power of Fun. And that's kind of where 887 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,480 Speaker 1: I got my fun prevention. I even though I was 888 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:17,480 Speaker 1: the one who needed the fun prevention, I was kind 889 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,080 Speaker 1: of finding most of my life was work and I 890 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 1: hadn't tried new fun things in a while, and I 891 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,080 Speaker 1: didn't have time for leisure. And then when I finally 892 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,080 Speaker 1: had time for leisure, I was so burnt out that 893 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,480 Speaker 1: all I could think to do was like PLoP down 894 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,160 Speaker 1: and watch Netflix. And nothing wrong with Netflix. I think 895 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,200 Speaker 1: that can be incredibly relaxing, but it might not be 896 00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,319 Speaker 1: like fun. Like like when you think in your life, 897 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,560 Speaker 1: like you know, think of a memory that you would 898 00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,440 Speaker 1: describe as like so fun. Very few people I think 899 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,600 Speaker 1: think like, yeah, that one Netflix show I watched was 900 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 1: like so fun. You know. We think of like social 901 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,800 Speaker 1: things or times when we're being rebellious or goofy or 902 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,799 Speaker 1: trying something new, often with friends, right when we were 903 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,680 Speaker 1: really in the moment, when time flew by right, like 904 00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:00,440 Speaker 1: that's fun. And I had the realization that I hadn't 905 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:02,480 Speaker 1: gotten a lot of that in my life recently, for 906 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 1: better or for worse. And so Catherine was trying to 907 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,680 Speaker 1: help me find some fun and we did it first 908 00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:12,400 Speaker 1: actually by this this process of paying attention to delights 909 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,520 Speaker 1: and too blessings, and part because she thought, one problem 910 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,399 Speaker 1: with fun is that we're just too distracted. Right, Fun 911 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,200 Speaker 1: really requires being present, being in the moment, like being 912 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,960 Speaker 1: in flow right, so time can fly by, and with 913 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,000 Speaker 1: the incessant dings in real devices or the dings in 914 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,000 Speaker 1: my head like you should do this, or you know, 915 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:30,920 Speaker 1: like that that voice that kind of calls you out 916 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,880 Speaker 1: of the moment, I realized I needed to work on those, 917 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,560 Speaker 1: and so Catherine gave me some delight homework. I had 918 00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,200 Speaker 1: to find my own delights out there in the world, 919 00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,000 Speaker 1: and it was a good way to kind of train 920 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,600 Speaker 1: my brain to notice good stuff instead of that incessant 921 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,279 Speaker 1: chatter of what I should be doing, um, And so 922 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,120 Speaker 1: it was pretty helpful. But a second thing Katherine made 923 00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,439 Speaker 1: me realize is that I kind of needed to try 924 00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:56,680 Speaker 1: new things because probably, like a lot of adults, I've 925 00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,200 Speaker 1: kind of gotten away from the things I used to 926 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,440 Speaker 1: find fun like as a kid. You know, there's all 927 00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:02,960 Speaker 1: these things we do for fun as a kid, and 928 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:04,880 Speaker 1: we feel like, well, we shouldn't spend our time on 929 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,239 Speaker 1: that anymore because we're the grind. Time is money, like 930 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,600 Speaker 1: we should be working, working, And so Catherine convinced me 931 00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,200 Speaker 1: to try some new things. So um as part of 932 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,040 Speaker 1: this podcast episode, I even took a surfing lesson, which, 933 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:18,520 Speaker 1: for those that know me, I mean like I'm like 934 00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:22,360 Speaker 1: an Ivy League academic forty something not very in shape, 935 00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,520 Speaker 1: Like surfing was not like high on the list of 936 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,680 Speaker 1: expected things that I should be doing with my time, 937 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,440 Speaker 1: but it wound up being super fun amazing. Why do 938 00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:36,080 Speaker 1: you think it's important for adults to purposefully seek out 939 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:42,239 Speaker 1: fun and and dedicate a practice of novel joy in 940 00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,640 Speaker 1: their day to day lives. So many good reasons that 941 00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:46,759 Speaker 1: come out of Catherine Price's book, But to kind of, 942 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,319 Speaker 1: you know, steal her thunder just a little bit. I mean, 943 00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:51,759 Speaker 1: first of all, it's just fun, right, Like you know, 944 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:54,080 Speaker 1: like if you when you look back on your life 945 00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:56,480 Speaker 1: and you're kind of going through your memories, I think 946 00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,120 Speaker 1: you'll look back with joy on those so fun times 947 00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,120 Speaker 1: in a way that you for something that was just relaxing, 948 00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,680 Speaker 1: like the leisure that felt so fun leaves an impact 949 00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:07,840 Speaker 1: and like for a life well lived, you kind of 950 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,400 Speaker 1: want that. You know. Second, it's just fun, right, Like 951 00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:12,319 Speaker 1: it just feels good, right, So we want to fill 952 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:15,440 Speaker 1: our lives with things that feel good. But fun has 953 00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:18,920 Speaker 1: all these benefits for our mental health. It can reduce 954 00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,840 Speaker 1: our stress hormones, like literally change the hormonal balance and 955 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,759 Speaker 1: our bodies. It can allow us to feel a little 956 00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:27,279 Speaker 1: bit more present, you know, mindfulness. We know being in 957 00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,520 Speaker 1: the present moment makes us happier, so we kind of 958 00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:32,680 Speaker 1: get that from fun. And also fun allows us to 959 00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:35,440 Speaker 1: engage in a little bit of play, right, and we 960 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,279 Speaker 1: know that play, even separate from fun, is really good 961 00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,399 Speaker 1: for us. Um. You know, there's a reason animals tend 962 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:43,600 Speaker 1: to play when they're like little kids. It's related to 963 00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:47,279 Speaker 1: brain development. And there's evidence suggesting that adults who play 964 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:51,319 Speaker 1: more have evidence of this brain neurotrophic factor, which is 965 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,799 Speaker 1: like proteins that are associated with brain growth. Right, So 966 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,359 Speaker 1: you're kind of keeping savvy and cognitively sharp in your 967 00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,120 Speaker 1: old age, right just through the act of playing more. 968 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:04,520 Speaker 1: There's also evidence if you look at like super smart, 969 00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:07,560 Speaker 1: super successful people, a lot of them spent a lot 970 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:10,480 Speaker 1: of time having fun, like doing some other hobby just 971 00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:14,400 Speaker 1: for fun. So the inventor like a Richard Fineman, you know, 972 00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:18,120 Speaker 1: the famous physicist, he played like bongo drums, And the 973 00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,879 Speaker 1: inventor Claude Shannon had like all these crazy I don't 974 00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,480 Speaker 1: even remember all of them, like weird hobbies that he had. 975 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:28,120 Speaker 1: And there's there's evidence from creativity research that Nobel Prize 976 00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,800 Speaker 1: winning scientists, if you compare, well, what made them different 977 00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,719 Speaker 1: from non Nobel Prize winning scientists right, Like they're all 978 00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,280 Speaker 1: at the same level doing stuff. Turns out the Nobel 979 00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,120 Speaker 1: Prize winning scientists were more likely to do something on 980 00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,399 Speaker 1: the side that was weird, to have fun, like they 981 00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,520 Speaker 1: had these weird hobbies. So it's it might be bumping 982 00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,640 Speaker 1: up our cognition and our decision making and our performance 983 00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:50,840 Speaker 1: in ways we don't expect. So when you when you 984 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:56,200 Speaker 1: amass all of the things you've learned from Catherine and 985 00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:00,440 Speaker 1: through your own research and your own experiment months with 986 00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:05,719 Speaker 1: fun in your life, how much of that sort of 987 00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:12,880 Speaker 1: personal growth do you feel informs your class which just 988 00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,600 Speaker 1: to brag about you again for a moment, I will 989 00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:18,880 Speaker 1: just remind the listeners is Yale's most popular class and 990 00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:25,719 Speaker 1: over three years. Uh, how does it all come together? Yeah? Well, 991 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:30,000 Speaker 1: I think the students appreciate that I never claim to 992 00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,479 Speaker 1: be the guru that I have all the answers. I'm 993 00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:35,640 Speaker 1: very real with them where I'm like, look, I'm on 994 00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,160 Speaker 1: this struggle too. I'm suffering from all the stuff that 995 00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:40,759 Speaker 1: you're suffering from, and I have to take my own 996 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,919 Speaker 1: advice in my own medicine. And I think there's something 997 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,239 Speaker 1: that resonates with them by me being real like that. Right, Like, 998 00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:50,439 Speaker 1: I'm going through this too. I'm kind of self experimenting. 999 00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,200 Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out whether or not these things 1000 00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:55,440 Speaker 1: work for me at the same time as I'm asking 1001 00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:57,640 Speaker 1: you to do the same thing. And that means that, 1002 00:51:57,719 --> 00:51:59,680 Speaker 1: you know, they see that I'm kind of a student too, 1003 00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,520 Speaker 1: you know, like we all are right because even though 1004 00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,759 Speaker 1: I teach this class, I haven't changed those basic intuitions, 1005 00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:08,919 Speaker 1: right like those I'm still human, those misconceptions are still there. 1006 00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:11,719 Speaker 1: I'm just switching my behavior around to be a little 1007 00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:17,239 Speaker 1: bit better. I really like that idea that you can 1008 00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:23,000 Speaker 1: change your behavior. But something about you saying my brain 1009 00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:26,520 Speaker 1: is my brain, the misconceptions remain. Actually didn't mean to rhyme, 1010 00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:30,640 Speaker 1: but here we are. I think that's actually quite freeing 1011 00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:36,000 Speaker 1: because so many of us do carry that misconception of well, 1012 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,319 Speaker 1: once I learn it, I'll be better. Once I solve this, 1013 00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,879 Speaker 1: ill feel happy. And I really love that you're saying 1014 00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:49,280 Speaker 1: it's not about solving anything. It's about just training yourself 1015 00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:54,360 Speaker 1: to do something else, and then what isn't working for 1016 00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:57,759 Speaker 1: you will get smaller. Yeah, that's a lovely way to 1017 00:52:57,760 --> 00:52:59,960 Speaker 1: put it, because I think but to have your change 1018 00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,240 Speaker 1: just hard, right, Like, really changing our habits and changing 1019 00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:07,960 Speaker 1: our behavior is tough. And what ultimately matters isn't what 1020 00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,680 Speaker 1: the misconception is. Like, what matters is kind of how 1021 00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:13,160 Speaker 1: we act on it. So when you look at the 1022 00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,640 Speaker 1: big list of things that really do matter for our happiness, 1023 00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,520 Speaker 1: they include things like taking time to sleep, taking time 1024 00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:22,439 Speaker 1: to exercise, you know, stuff that's common wisdom, but isn't 1025 00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:25,080 Speaker 1: common practice. Right. We all kind of know it, but 1026 00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,160 Speaker 1: we don't necessarily like do it. And you know, this 1027 00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:30,279 Speaker 1: is something I struggle with things. This is that we're 1028 00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:32,560 Speaker 1: talking right now. It's the very beginning of the semester 1029 00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,120 Speaker 1: we're in, like the first week of classes, things are 1030 00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,560 Speaker 1: frantic and busy, and like it'd be so easy for 1031 00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:41,839 Speaker 1: me just to drop my normal like workout routine this week, 1032 00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:43,600 Speaker 1: like and get that you know, hour and a half back. 1033 00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:46,680 Speaker 1: That would be amazing. But I'm like, actually, this is 1034 00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:48,359 Speaker 1: the time that I need to double down on it. 1035 00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:51,040 Speaker 1: It doesn't feel like it like it definitely feels like 1036 00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:54,720 Speaker 1: I'd prefer to do something else. But knowing the science 1037 00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:57,560 Speaker 1: saying like, Okay, I don't believe my intuition tells me 1038 00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,160 Speaker 1: I don't need to do this, but let me try ultimately, 1039 00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:02,719 Speaker 1: And if you take time to mindfully notice you notice, oh, 1040 00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:04,920 Speaker 1: I do feel better at the end of today. You 1041 00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:06,520 Speaker 1: know we're just talking and I did a bunch of 1042 00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,120 Speaker 1: podcast episodes. I'm going to be dead tired. I'm going 1043 00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:11,320 Speaker 1: to feel the need to like PLoP down and scroll 1044 00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:14,399 Speaker 1: through Netflix, not talk to anyone, like just but like 1045 00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:16,960 Speaker 1: the science tells me, like, oh, that's the time that 1046 00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,040 Speaker 1: I did text a friend and reach out or do 1047 00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:21,919 Speaker 1: something active that will really feel like leisure rather than 1048 00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:25,600 Speaker 1: just feeling apathetic and yucky. Right, that's not my intuition. 1049 00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:29,040 Speaker 1: But because I've seen the studies, I know, well, I 1050 00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:30,920 Speaker 1: need to do something that's a little bit different from 1051 00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:32,799 Speaker 1: my intuition, and then I need to, you know, again, 1052 00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:34,520 Speaker 1: do the experiment. Pay attention, like when you think, oh, 1053 00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:37,040 Speaker 1: actually that kind of felt good. You know, it's like 1054 00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:39,239 Speaker 1: you were talking about with doing the blessings practice with 1055 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:41,120 Speaker 1: your friends, like actually, now that I reflect on it, 1056 00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,719 Speaker 1: that was fantastic. Like why did I stop doing that? Right? 1057 00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:47,440 Speaker 1: Why did we stop? Yeah? This is another another interesting 1058 00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:50,359 Speaker 1: disconnect that I talk with um that I talked about 1059 00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,319 Speaker 1: a lot on the podcast Way with my students is 1060 00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:56,640 Speaker 1: like our brains aren't really wired to, you know, really 1061 00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:59,360 Speaker 1: go after all the things that we like all the time, 1062 00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:01,400 Speaker 1: which is kind d of stupid. I mean, if you 1063 00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,319 Speaker 1: look at the neuroscientific wiring of the brain, there are 1064 00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:08,480 Speaker 1: all these regions that code what's called liking, which is 1065 00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:10,520 Speaker 1: like the actual experience you get. You know, when I 1066 00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:12,840 Speaker 1: have a really hard work out, I like that. You 1067 00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:15,359 Speaker 1: know it feels really good, right, Um, you know, when 1068 00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,960 Speaker 1: you were doing something really fun like that so fun moment, 1069 00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,440 Speaker 1: that feels good. But your brain has different circuits for 1070 00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,200 Speaker 1: what you might want to call wanting, which is like 1071 00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:26,279 Speaker 1: the craving for those things like whether or not you 1072 00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:29,400 Speaker 1: put effort into going after them. And there are a 1073 00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:32,160 Speaker 1: lot of cases where what we want doesn't match what 1074 00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:35,400 Speaker 1: we like. Like after this, I predict I want like 1075 00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:37,840 Speaker 1: my body is telling me, hey, go, do you know 1076 00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:39,919 Speaker 1: some apathetic thing where I popped down and watch TV? 1077 00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:42,239 Speaker 1: But am I going to really like that as much 1078 00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:44,840 Speaker 1: as the hard pilates work out after this? Like probably 1079 00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,719 Speaker 1: not right, and the reverse right, Like I don't have 1080 00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:51,800 Speaker 1: a wanting system that's craving to like meditate in the morning, 1081 00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:53,600 Speaker 1: or like, you know, I have a craving to like 1082 00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:55,680 Speaker 1: eat a bunch of cupcakes or like, you know, salty 1083 00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:58,040 Speaker 1: things after this, and that's gonna make me feel gross, 1084 00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:00,279 Speaker 1: whereas the meditation is going to make me feel rate. 1085 00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:03,160 Speaker 1: And so I think so many of our problems wind 1086 00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:06,120 Speaker 1: up relying on this fact that we don't necessarily want 1087 00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:09,879 Speaker 1: what we like, and we don't necessarily not want things 1088 00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:12,520 Speaker 1: we're not gonna like. It's it's a very poor brain design, 1089 00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:15,520 Speaker 1: but it explains a lot. I think. As you're explaining 1090 00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:21,120 Speaker 1: and teaching all of this to people, and now that 1091 00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:26,560 Speaker 1: the class is available online, you know, be being adapted 1092 00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,120 Speaker 1: into a free course. By the way, for everyone listening 1093 00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:33,000 Speaker 1: on course, Sarah, anyone can sign up for What has 1094 00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:39,840 Speaker 1: that experience been like to have this this very universal 1095 00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:44,520 Speaker 1: set of truths but that I imagine feels very intimate 1096 00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:50,359 Speaker 1: in a classroom become global. What what has that been 1097 00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:53,359 Speaker 1: like for you? Yeah, it's been a little strange. And 1098 00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:56,319 Speaker 1: even you know, the online class that we filmed, I 1099 00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:59,600 Speaker 1: filmed it with this small little salon of about twenty students. 1100 00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:01,160 Speaker 1: We filmed at my home, you know, so if you 1101 00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,000 Speaker 1: watch it on Corsera, feels you kind of intimate. We've 1102 00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:07,560 Speaker 1: been talking with these students. And what's funny now is 1103 00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:10,680 Speaker 1: three point five million people have taken the class, right, 1104 00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:12,960 Speaker 1: and so it's like this thing that was like, this 1105 00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:15,160 Speaker 1: intimate thing of me sharing these deep truths with the 1106 00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:17,760 Speaker 1: students in my home, you know, have become the thing 1107 00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,560 Speaker 1: that literally millions of people are watching. So what it's 1108 00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:24,240 Speaker 1: been like has just been surreal, humbling, powerful. It's really 1109 00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:27,240 Speaker 1: taught me that so many people need this stuff, that 1110 00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:30,320 Speaker 1: need these insights, They especially need them in the midst 1111 00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,840 Speaker 1: of this pandemic stuff that we've all been going through. Yeah, 1112 00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:36,840 Speaker 1: so it's just really shown me that this scientific approach 1113 00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:39,360 Speaker 1: resonates and people really need it more than I even 1114 00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:42,000 Speaker 1: even I expected. How do you think that your role 1115 00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:46,280 Speaker 1: as a professor and an educator in I suppose both 1116 00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:49,880 Speaker 1: of these mediums really has impacted you as a scientist. 1117 00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:54,520 Speaker 1: I think it's been you know, really important for me 1118 00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:57,120 Speaker 1: as a scientist in the sense that I you really 1119 00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:00,880 Speaker 1: realize that sometimes when you're like the Ivory Tower and 1120 00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:03,040 Speaker 1: a scientist, you can kind of just get in your 1121 00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:05,760 Speaker 1: head about like the accolade filled version of it. You know. 1122 00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,360 Speaker 1: I imagine even in the chainment industry you do this too. 1123 00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:10,080 Speaker 1: It's like let me get the next part, or let 1124 00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:11,760 Speaker 1: me do the next thing, you know, for academics, like 1125 00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:13,560 Speaker 1: let me get to the next grant or the next paper. 1126 00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:17,120 Speaker 1: And I think this process had made me realize that, like, ultimately, 1127 00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,760 Speaker 1: these are truths that can help people, right, these are 1128 00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:22,960 Speaker 1: things that we need to make accessible so people know 1129 00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:25,280 Speaker 1: how to use them, so they can put them into 1130 00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:28,600 Speaker 1: effect in their lives to flourish more. And so you know, 1131 00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:30,960 Speaker 1: it's made that work so much more meaningful. But it's 1132 00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,560 Speaker 1: also made it so much more important, right. You know, 1133 00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:35,680 Speaker 1: these can't be just findings that are published in some 1134 00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,280 Speaker 1: journal somewhere. We need to make sure these things are 1135 00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:41,200 Speaker 1: accessible and people know these things so they can put 1136 00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:44,600 Speaker 1: them into effect in their own lives. Yeah, I think 1137 00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:49,320 Speaker 1: about the truth of societal hurting that we see around 1138 00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:53,080 Speaker 1: us everywhere, and I wonder, how do we begin, all 1139 00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:57,400 Speaker 1: of us as a collective to change that together, and 1140 00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:01,000 Speaker 1: certainly this research it feels like a great way to begin. 1141 00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:05,680 Speaker 1: When when you look at the world around you, whether 1142 00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:11,320 Speaker 1: it's in your physical circle of your academic world, or 1143 00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:15,320 Speaker 1: or perhaps halfway around the globe, who's really inspiring you 1144 00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:19,200 Speaker 1: right now? Oh? I mean I get inspired by so 1145 00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:22,919 Speaker 1: many people. I mean I'm inspired really quite locally by 1146 00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,400 Speaker 1: my staff. You know, I have this amazing staff even 1147 00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:27,680 Speaker 1: in my college, who would like do anything for the 1148 00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:30,760 Speaker 1: students in our residential college at Suliman College here at Yale. 1149 00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:33,200 Speaker 1: Just the amount of work they put in the way 1150 00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:36,560 Speaker 1: they've so flexibly navigated the pandemic and all the challenges 1151 00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:40,240 Speaker 1: that poses on a college campus. Like, they are amazing 1152 00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:43,600 Speaker 1: and so inspiring. It's even sometimes hard to think like 1153 00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:45,920 Speaker 1: globally because you know, I have such a passion and 1154 00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:48,760 Speaker 1: inspiration for the kinds of things they're doing on a 1155 00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:52,560 Speaker 1: local level. But even teaching this class has also connected 1156 00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:56,160 Speaker 1: with me with people who are doing these inspirational acts 1157 00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:58,120 Speaker 1: you know, it was actually a student in my class 1158 00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:02,240 Speaker 1: who started a program called Helping Hands, where in the 1159 01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:05,840 Speaker 1: pandemic he was kind of delivering groceries to elderly individuals. 1160 01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:08,880 Speaker 1: And that's incredible that, you know, a student could come 1161 01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:11,480 Speaker 1: up with this and could kind of really change people's lives. 1162 01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:14,400 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean I see inspiration all over the place, 1163 01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:18,200 Speaker 1: but but often really locally because we I think whenever again, 1164 01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:22,600 Speaker 1: if you train your mind towards these blessings, towards these delights, 1165 01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,360 Speaker 1: towards the things that you're thankful for, you know, you 1166 01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:28,320 Speaker 1: can notice thankfulness even in these tiny spaces. You don't 1167 01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:29,880 Speaker 1: have to be like, well, this is amazing, you know, 1168 01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:33,320 Speaker 1: politician or person who's fighting for social justice, like you 1169 01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:36,560 Speaker 1: see it just in your own backyard, you know, and 1170 01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:40,080 Speaker 1: you can be profoundly affected by it. I love that. 1171 01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:44,680 Speaker 1: The reminder to to really look around you and be present, 1172 01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:51,880 Speaker 1: I think is so important. The pandemic has certainly taught 1173 01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:54,240 Speaker 1: me that that's really been my silver lining, is to 1174 01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:59,880 Speaker 1: be more deeply present. And it's also shown me that 1175 01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:01,880 Speaker 1: I can't do as much in a day as I've 1176 01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:07,560 Speaker 1: always thought. It's just not possible. The goals can exist 1177 01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:11,840 Speaker 1: the interests can be there, but time is just not 1178 01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:15,320 Speaker 1: as flexible as I wish it was. And and in 1179 01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:19,360 Speaker 1: your TED talk you actually talk about how important it 1180 01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:23,480 Speaker 1: is that we recognize our limitations, and you talk about 1181 01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:26,520 Speaker 1: how recognizing our limitations might lead us to being able 1182 01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:30,880 Speaker 1: to overcome them as a species, which was fascinating to me. 1183 01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:34,880 Speaker 1: Can you explain a little bit about that? Yeah, I mean, 1184 01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:39,360 Speaker 1: I think we have these dumb intuitions, we make, these mistakes, 1185 01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:43,280 Speaker 1: We have these tendencies that might not be leading us 1186 01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:47,560 Speaker 1: towards flourishing, that might be actually leading us away from flourishing. 1187 01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:50,600 Speaker 1: And I feel like, on the one hand, well, that's 1188 01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:53,480 Speaker 1: annoying that our minds are designed in this dumb way. 1189 01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:58,120 Speaker 1: But by understanding those design flaws, we really can not 1190 01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:00,600 Speaker 1: necessarily fix them, but kind of them up with like 1191 01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:04,080 Speaker 1: gluegy solutions to do better. Right. I don't think we're 1192 01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:07,720 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily think we're ever going to fully overcome 1193 01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:10,120 Speaker 1: all these misconceptions. It's going to be hard to believe. 1194 01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:12,840 Speaker 1: No money doesn't matter for happiness, or I'll just be 1195 01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:16,400 Speaker 1: perfectly happy if some terrible circumstance happens to me. Like 1196 01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:18,840 Speaker 1: it's hard for our brains to think that. But we 1197 01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:21,960 Speaker 1: can know the science enough to structure our days with 1198 01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:25,120 Speaker 1: practices that really will help us flourish a little bit more. 1199 01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:29,160 Speaker 1: And that knowledge is really power. It's not like resetting 1200 01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:32,880 Speaker 1: all these misconceptions, but knowing our flaws can allow us 1201 01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:35,480 Speaker 1: to work with them and and work with them to 1202 01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:42,560 Speaker 1: be happier. Mm hmm. Given the state of us or 1203 01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:45,919 Speaker 1: maybe the world today, what when you look at those 1204 01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:50,520 Speaker 1: limitations that we might be able to overcome, what limitations 1205 01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:56,040 Speaker 1: do you think that we as a species should immediately 1206 01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:59,240 Speaker 1: trying to address. Well, there are lots, you know, I mean, 1207 01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:01,880 Speaker 1: you know any many, but I mean I think one 1208 01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:04,520 Speaker 1: is that there are so many opportunities to do better 1209 01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:06,560 Speaker 1: in the world that we tend not to do because 1210 01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:09,720 Speaker 1: we assume they'll kind of compete with our happiness. So 1211 01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:12,680 Speaker 1: an example is like, if I'm having a really bad day, 1212 01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:15,000 Speaker 1: I get this urge of like I want to treat myself, 1213 01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:16,640 Speaker 1: I want to do something nice for myself. I'm gonna 1214 01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:20,200 Speaker 1: order myself dinner, buy myself something or whatever. And it 1215 01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:22,520 Speaker 1: turns out, if you look at the science, that's not 1216 01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:25,120 Speaker 1: the best way to spend your money to feel better. 1217 01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:27,720 Speaker 1: In fact, you'd be better off spending your money, like, 1218 01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:30,280 Speaker 1: like dollar for dollar in terms of your happiness impact, 1219 01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:33,240 Speaker 1: you'd be better off spending that money on someone else. 1220 01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:35,200 Speaker 1: There's been these studies done where you walk up to 1221 01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:37,160 Speaker 1: people on the street, hand them some money, and you 1222 01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:39,880 Speaker 1: tell them either, hey, spend that money tonight to treat yourself, 1223 01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:42,400 Speaker 1: or hey, spend that money tonight to do something nice 1224 01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:45,320 Speaker 1: for another person. And what you find is that the 1225 01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:47,680 Speaker 1: group of people who do the nice thing for other 1226 01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:50,480 Speaker 1: people wind up happier than those that spend the money 1227 01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:53,400 Speaker 1: to treat themselves. I bring this up to say there 1228 01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:54,680 Speaker 1: are a lot of points in my life I'm like, 1229 01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:56,440 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I feel terrible. What can I do 1230 01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:59,360 Speaker 1: to feel better? My instinct is often not like, let 1231 01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:02,240 Speaker 1: me do something awesome for somebody else. Let me text 1232 01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:04,440 Speaker 1: a friend who might be struggling and check in on them. 1233 01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:07,400 Speaker 1: Let me donate something to charity, let me like put 1234 01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:10,840 Speaker 1: some time into volunteering for this good cause. That's not 1235 01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:14,200 Speaker 1: my instinct. But if it was my instinct, I'd both 1236 01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:18,080 Speaker 1: make myself happier and I'd probably do something to make 1237 01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:21,720 Speaker 1: the world at large a better place. Right. And so 1238 01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:24,720 Speaker 1: that's a flaw that I think if we understood that, 1239 01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:27,600 Speaker 1: if we understood that doing kind things for others, that 1240 01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:31,360 Speaker 1: treating other people is more effective than treating ourselves. We 1241 01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:33,920 Speaker 1: do that more often because that's the path to personal happiness. 1242 01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:36,200 Speaker 1: Like just selfishly, we do it more often. But it 1243 01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:38,520 Speaker 1: would lead to such a cascade of good effects in 1244 01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:41,880 Speaker 1: the world too. Yes, that's one of the things that 1245 01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:45,760 Speaker 1: I always try to talk to young people about. In particular, 1246 01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:49,760 Speaker 1: if I am speaking out of college or with a 1247 01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:52,840 Speaker 1: group of students and they're asking me about activism, I 1248 01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:58,080 Speaker 1: just say, listen, you're showing up to work, but you 1249 01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:01,320 Speaker 1: you will be happy or than you've been doing anything 1250 01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:03,800 Speaker 1: else when you show up for other people and changes 1251 01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:10,160 Speaker 1: your life. And I like knowing that there's data, when 1252 01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:12,160 Speaker 1: there's science that backs you up in and you know 1253 01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:14,600 Speaker 1: this thing I think in science. But again, you know, 1254 01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:16,919 Speaker 1: it's hard to eat. I know this science. I could 1255 01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:19,000 Speaker 1: quote you the study in the year it was published, 1256 01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:21,560 Speaker 1: but like it's hard to put into effect in your 1257 01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:23,920 Speaker 1: own life. I did this myself in a kind of 1258 01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:26,800 Speaker 1: just a tiny example. So I had my birthday in 1259 01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:28,640 Speaker 1: the first year of the pandemic. You know, now we've 1260 01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:31,160 Speaker 1: had multiple birthdays in the pandemic but at the time, 1261 01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:32,880 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, what was me? I can't go 1262 01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:34,760 Speaker 1: out to eat, you know, like the year one, Like 1263 01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:36,960 Speaker 1: I'm in lockdown? What am I gonna do? This sucks? 1264 01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:39,400 Speaker 1: And so I was like, Okay, let me take a 1265 01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:41,800 Speaker 1: page out of the Happiness playbook, like what should I do? 1266 01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:44,200 Speaker 1: And I was saying like, maybe this is the year 1267 01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:47,160 Speaker 1: I shoake your birthday presents to other people, Like maybe 1268 01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:49,680 Speaker 1: I should do for others like you know, shocker based 1269 01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:51,760 Speaker 1: on what I just said. But I thought it was 1270 01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:55,160 Speaker 1: right before the school year started, and this was when 1271 01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:57,200 Speaker 1: we really didn't know what was happening on campus. So 1272 01:05:57,240 --> 01:06:00,320 Speaker 1: many of my colleagues, who also work as heads of 1273 01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:03,000 Speaker 1: college were like scared and frustrated and it was just 1274 01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:04,400 Speaker 1: like a bad time. And I was like, you know what, 1275 01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:05,840 Speaker 1: I'm going to get each of them a bottle of 1276 01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:08,560 Speaker 1: Champagne's flourge a little right, my other colleagues who are 1277 01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:11,040 Speaker 1: in the same role, and I decided I would write 1278 01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:13,400 Speaker 1: each of them a little gratitude letter of like, you know, 1279 01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:15,680 Speaker 1: this this year has been tough, but I'm so you know, 1280 01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:17,360 Speaker 1: one thing I'm grateful for is that you've been there 1281 01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:18,840 Speaker 1: with me and that you know, like we've been in 1282 01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:21,800 Speaker 1: this together, and and brought them to their house and 1283 01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:24,439 Speaker 1: even telling the story now, I can feel my heart 1284 01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:28,560 Speaker 1: filling up because their reactions happy, tears, returning the fever. 1285 01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:30,760 Speaker 1: Even just a couple of weeks ago, one of them 1286 01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:31,840 Speaker 1: like called me and brought it up. It was like, 1287 01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:33,560 Speaker 1: you know, I was just thinking of that letter you wrote, 1288 01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:35,439 Speaker 1: and like you know how much we've been through since then, 1289 01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:38,440 Speaker 1: Like I have such stronger relationships with all of them 1290 01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:41,120 Speaker 1: because of that act. And I could have blown, like 1291 01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:42,960 Speaker 1: I could have bought that many bottles of champagne for 1292 01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:45,040 Speaker 1: myself and just blown through them, you know, hopefully like 1293 01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:48,080 Speaker 1: with with reasonable separation, but like it wouldn't have given 1294 01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:50,880 Speaker 1: me the joy and the kind of ripple effected joy 1295 01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:54,080 Speaker 1: as you said before that doing those nice things did 1296 01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:56,680 Speaker 1: over time. But like again we get it wrong, Like 1297 01:06:56,720 --> 01:06:58,760 Speaker 1: we get the presents on our birthday. You imagine if 1298 01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:01,600 Speaker 1: all of our birthdays we're giving things away to others. 1299 01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:04,840 Speaker 1: And again, it makes us happy at the same time 1300 01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:06,560 Speaker 1: as it makes the world better. Like the brain didn't 1301 01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:08,240 Speaker 1: have to work like that, but it did, and that's 1302 01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:11,920 Speaker 1: kind of cool. I love that, and that that feels 1303 01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:15,240 Speaker 1: like cracking a code of the brain somehow, you know, 1304 01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:19,200 Speaker 1: quite literally, when I think about how so many of 1305 01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:21,440 Speaker 1: my favorite things I call life hacks. Oh it's a 1306 01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:24,960 Speaker 1: good life hack. This feels like a life hack. And 1307 01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:30,320 Speaker 1: I wonder if if you could solve or uncover or 1308 01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:34,440 Speaker 1: crack the code on on any current mystery about the 1309 01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:38,600 Speaker 1: human mind. Because we're talking about all this data, what 1310 01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:41,960 Speaker 1: what would you want to tackle next? Yeah, I mean, 1311 01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:45,160 Speaker 1: if I had my druthers and going to really understand 1312 01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:47,760 Speaker 1: stupid features of the mind. Yeah, I think. I think. 1313 01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:50,120 Speaker 1: Actually the one I would most want to figure out 1314 01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:52,880 Speaker 1: and figure out how to fix is that disconnect I 1315 01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:55,560 Speaker 1: mentioned between wanting and liking. If I could just get 1316 01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:58,360 Speaker 1: my brain to creave the stuff that would really feel good. 1317 01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:00,960 Speaker 1: If I could creave doing nice things for others. If 1318 01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:04,680 Speaker 1: I could crave it really intense our long meditation class, 1319 01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:07,000 Speaker 1: which would be amazing for my psyche. If I could 1320 01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:09,760 Speaker 1: crave saying no in a way that didn't make me 1321 01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:12,600 Speaker 1: feel guilty. Right, all of those things would be so good. 1322 01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:16,639 Speaker 1: Like brain lead me in the right direction and right 1323 01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:18,920 Speaker 1: now it seems like brains are structured that they don't 1324 01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:20,519 Speaker 1: often do that. And the flip side, if I could 1325 01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:23,360 Speaker 1: say brain for chocolate chip cookies right before I went 1326 01:08:23,400 --> 01:08:27,000 Speaker 1: to bed. Not a smooth move like falling asleep, Like brain, 1327 01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:29,000 Speaker 1: could we not skip the workout this week? Can you 1328 01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:31,919 Speaker 1: make me crave that pilates class just like I craved 1329 01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:34,479 Speaker 1: those cookies. If we could get brains to do that, 1330 01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:37,160 Speaker 1: we'd be we'd be killing it. But right now there's 1331 01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:39,559 Speaker 1: some there's still a lot of room to figure out 1332 01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:42,240 Speaker 1: and understand why the brain is disconnected in that way 1333 01:08:42,280 --> 01:08:43,720 Speaker 1: and what we can do to fix it. Still a 1334 01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:48,760 Speaker 1: bit of a mystery. M that feels exciting. Yeah, it 1335 01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:50,559 Speaker 1: could be. It could be. I mean, right now, it 1336 01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:54,439 Speaker 1: feels like, damnit, brain, do it? Would you get it together? 1337 01:08:55,640 --> 01:08:59,080 Speaker 1: The scientific mystery part of it is fun. Yeah, stop 1338 01:08:59,120 --> 01:09:03,559 Speaker 1: craving sour can and you start craving water. Yeah, exactly, simple, 1339 01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:05,559 Speaker 1: a simple one, right If that would be really nice? 1340 01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:10,400 Speaker 1: I imagine there's so many people feeling inspired right now 1341 01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:14,640 Speaker 1: and excited, and you know who want to sign up 1342 01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:18,240 Speaker 1: for the course. But I've got your ear in this 1343 01:09:18,360 --> 01:09:22,160 Speaker 1: in this moment, lucky for me. So I'm wondering for 1344 01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:24,040 Speaker 1: the folks out there who really look up to you, 1345 01:09:25,400 --> 01:09:30,000 Speaker 1: Is there any advice you'd like to give? Yeah? I 1346 01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:33,120 Speaker 1: mean I think the advice I care most about is that, like, 1347 01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:37,560 Speaker 1: you you can control your own flourishing, right, Like, not 1348 01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:39,679 Speaker 1: a guilty way, like it's on you to like flourish 1349 01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:42,400 Speaker 1: more if you're feeling depressed and anxious is on you. No, Like, 1350 01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:44,920 Speaker 1: there's a lot of our happiness that we really can 1351 01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:47,240 Speaker 1: control if we have the right strategies. We don't, like, 1352 01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:49,320 Speaker 1: our brains are not designed to have the right strategies, 1353 01:09:49,360 --> 01:09:51,880 Speaker 1: So it's nothing you should feel guilty about. But with 1354 01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:55,639 Speaker 1: the right strategies, you can just feel better. And that 1355 01:09:56,040 --> 01:09:59,040 Speaker 1: is so powerful. It's hard, right, Like it takes behavior change, 1356 01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:02,000 Speaker 1: and that takes work, but like the path is there 1357 01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:05,360 Speaker 1: that you really can improve. And that's the piece of 1358 01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:08,559 Speaker 1: advice I share, because wow, that's profound, Like, no matter 1359 01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:11,599 Speaker 1: how you're feeling, like you can use strategies to feel 1360 01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:13,840 Speaker 1: a little bit better. Even if one of those strategies 1361 01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:17,080 Speaker 1: is like allowing and accepting your emotions, there are strategies 1362 01:10:17,080 --> 01:10:19,920 Speaker 1: for that to getting through the negative stuff. Um, but 1363 01:10:20,200 --> 01:10:22,360 Speaker 1: all of it is there for you to control if 1364 01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:24,799 Speaker 1: you understand how to do it. And and and that's real power. 1365 01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:31,520 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. That feels exciting when you look at the 1366 01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:36,960 Speaker 1: landscape of your life, your academic career, your work, your 1367 01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:41,840 Speaker 1: goals that lie ahead. What would you say upon that 1368 01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:45,760 Speaker 1: survey feels like the work in progress in your life 1369 01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:48,280 Speaker 1: right now? Right now? The real work in progress, I 1370 01:10:48,280 --> 01:10:50,880 Speaker 1: would say is two things. One is trying to find 1371 01:10:51,000 --> 01:10:53,200 Speaker 1: as many ways to get this content out and share 1372 01:10:53,240 --> 01:10:56,000 Speaker 1: these insights with other people as we can. Hard at 1373 01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:58,920 Speaker 1: work at the next season of our podcast, The Happiness Lab. 1374 01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:01,160 Speaker 1: That's the work in progress that I'm kind of most 1375 01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:04,080 Speaker 1: proud of and most excited to share with people. But 1376 01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:06,880 Speaker 1: you know, if I think personally like I'm the work 1377 01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:09,280 Speaker 1: in progress, you know, like I'm the one who's really 1378 01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:11,920 Speaker 1: trying to think about my own flourishing and how to 1379 01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:14,880 Speaker 1: put these habits into effect in my own life. And 1380 01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:17,519 Speaker 1: it does constantly take work. That's the you know, I 1381 01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:19,599 Speaker 1: gave the good news before. The good news is like 1382 01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:22,439 Speaker 1: we have so much control over our flourishing. The bad 1383 01:11:22,479 --> 01:11:24,400 Speaker 1: news is, just like other things we have control over, 1384 01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:26,720 Speaker 1: it takes work. Like you can become you know, like 1385 01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:29,240 Speaker 1: incredibly fit, but like you gotta hit the gym right, 1386 01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:31,200 Speaker 1: Like you can learn Italian, but like you kind of 1387 01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:33,080 Speaker 1: pick up a book and like you know, going through 1388 01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:35,760 Speaker 1: a lingo or whatever, Like like all good things, you 1389 01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:37,960 Speaker 1: can do it, but it does take some work. And 1390 01:11:38,360 --> 01:11:40,920 Speaker 1: the second work in progress is really me. I'm trying 1391 01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:42,920 Speaker 1: to put that work in and see what happens on 1392 01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:46,479 Speaker 1: the other side. I like it. Thank you so much. 1393 01:11:46,560 --> 01:11:49,799 Speaker 1: This has been so much fun and I really appreciate 1394 01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:52,160 Speaker 1: you joining all of us today. Thanks so much for 1395 01:11:52,200 --> 01:12:02,439 Speaker 1: having me on the show. U