WEBVTT - Matinee Science Playlist, Part 9: ‘Bandersnatch’ 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:08.400 And the banker, inspired with a courage so new it 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:12.119 was a matter for general remark, rushed madly ahead and 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:15.000 was lost to their view in his zeal to discover 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:18.639 the snark. But while he was seeking with thimbles and care, 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:23.320 a bender snatch swiftly drew nigh and grabbed at the banker, 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:26.280 who shrieked in despair, for he knew it was useless 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:30.000 to fly. He offered large discount. He offered a check 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:34.239 drawn to bearer for seven pounds ten, But the banderstatch 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:37.479 merely extended its neck and grabbed at the banker again, 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:42.680 without rest or pause, while those frumious jaws went savagely 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:46.440 snapping around. He skipped, and he hopped, and he floundered 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:50.080 and flopped till fainting he fell to the ground. The 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:53.320 bandersnatch fled as the others appeared, led on by that 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:57.360 fear stricken yell, and the bellman remarked, it is just 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:07.559 as I feared, and solemnly told on his bell Welcome 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:09.280 to stuff to blow your mind? A production of I 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:17.880 Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, are you welcome to 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:20.040 stuff to blow your mind? My name is Robert Lamb, 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:22.520 and I'm Joe McCormick and Robert Are you feeling more 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:26.680 frabjous or more frumious today? I guess more frumious. Frumious 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:30.880 would be my answer. That was, of course the poem 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:34.320 The Hunting of the Snark by Lewis Carroll, But I 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:36.080 guess a number of people were probably more familiar with 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:39.360 the Bandersnatch from another poem by Lewis Carroll, that being 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:43.560 the jabberwat chapwakee Yes, where the Bandersnatch is just alluded 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:48.040 to is another monstrous creature that might be running around 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.160 the woods. I love it when a poet first name 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:54.520 something in a kind of in a in a listical 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:57.440 kind of way, you know, poem, poem as listical, uh, 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:00.240 and then later it comes through in another poem with 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:03.560 more force. I think that's sort of happened with um 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:06.640 with the dim Organ, right, Yeah, yeah, I think so. 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:09.280 And and in this case, yeah, the bander Snatch. There's 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:11.320 not a lot really said about it in the writings 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.160 of Lewis Carroll. Lewis Carroll, by the way, was the 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:18.000 pen name of Charles Lutwich Dodgson who lived eighteen thirty 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:21.600 two through eighteen nine, and he first introduced the band 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:23.840 or snatch again just in a list of creatures that 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:27.079 might pop up in his eighteen seventy two novel Through 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:30.880 the Looking Glass in that poem the Jabberwocke, and then 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:33.400 pops up again in this eighteen seventy four poem that 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:36.679 we just read, the Hunting of the Snark, which we 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:38.280 didn't read the whole of the poem. That was just 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:42.040 an exerpt from it. I think where the like, who's 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:43.959 the banker? The banker is one of these people who 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:46.639 goes on a voyage hunting the snark. I think I've 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:49.639 read that that poem was has been interpreted by some 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:52.639 as as metaphorical of you know, that it's supposed to 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:55.760 be an allegory about the search for human happiness and contentment. 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:58.920 But then also I think i've heard it alleged that 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:01.840 the poem actually has no allegorical meaning, that it's just 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:05.080 it's just kind of silly. Yeah, I mean, in that sense, 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:07.680 it's kind of enigmatic. And the creature itself is enigmatic, 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:12.000 scarcely described, but certainly best avoided at all costs. There's 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.919 no way to outrun it, no way to escape its intensity. Uh, 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:19.359 And by the way frumious is a combination of fuming 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:22.519 and furious. Carroll just gram these two words together to 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:26.200 make a nice new adjective for strange. Monster is a 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:30.160 perfectly cromulent word. Very frabjous um. And I was wondering, 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:32.200 do you need a vorpal sword if you go up 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:34.280 against a vander snatch or is that only for the 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:37.280 jabberwock Well, it certainly worked on the Jabberwockie. I don't 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:39.560 know about the bander Snatch. There's there are no tales 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:42.120 of slaying it, are there, at least not in Lewis 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:45.280 Carroll's original work. Does the vorpal sword show up as 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:49.440 an artifact in D and D? It does? It certainly does. Yeah, um, 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:53.840 pretty good sword. Oh yeah, very good sword. Now. The 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:56.800 name Bandersnatch has been invoked many times over the years 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:59.840 and works of fantasy and science fiction. I've seen it 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:04.040 pop up as a space slug, another such creature. Sometimes 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:06.640 it's just kind of an enigmatic name for like a 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:10.080 government project or something, because it's a great it's a 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.120 great name. In depictions of Lewis Carroll's work, it is 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:17.560 often take on a mammalian character. Nineteen century children's illustrator 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:21.200 Peter Newell depicted it as kind of a furry horned 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:23.880 beast that might resemble a cat or maybe a wolf 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:26.280 like creature. Uh and this one this is a very 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:30.159 popular image. And then film adaptations have depicted it as 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.560 both bor like and cat like. The two thousand ten 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:37.560 Tim Burton adaptation has a very memorable creature design for 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.960 the Bandersnatch. Tim the Tim Burton Alice in Wonderland. Is 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:42.920 that what you're talking about? Yeah, yeah, I have. I've 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:45.599 seen the first one. Um, I never ventured that far 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:51.200 into late Burton. Well, it it had some things going 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:53.159 for it. It had it had a really good cast, 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:56.880 and it had some some interesting character designs I'll say that, 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:01.600 and and a very monstrous looking bander snatch. Okay, now, 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:06.320 just a couple of other interesting uh tidbits about Lewis Carroll. Um. 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:09.440 He was a mathematician. He worked in geometry and new 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:14.360 ideas in algebra, logic, machines, ciphers. So between this and 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:16.440 other details of of his life, there's a lot of 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:20.919 black mirror to the originator of the bander Snatch. Also 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:25.240 in Hallucinations, the book by Oliver Sacks, The late Oliver Sax. 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:27.800 Sax points out that Carroll was known to suffer from 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:32.479 classical migraines, and that Carol W. Lippman and others have 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:38.279 suggested that his migraine experiences UH may have contributed to 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:42.359 the way he envisioned through the Looking Glass and Alice 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:46.560 in Wonderland, like the skewing of time and space. Um. 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:50.360 Also you have auditory hallucinations that are not uncommon in migraines, 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:53.839 as well as old factory hallucinations. I've also seen descriptions 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:57.719 of of uh, this lifting feeling, that, this feeling of 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.720 being moved through space. Yeah, I guess the the extension 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:04.240 of the lightheadedness that comes on with the aura and 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.799 all that. Yeah. Um. You know there's actually an asteroid 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:10.159 named Bandersnatch. Oh. I didn't know this and I looked 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.880 this up. Bander Snatch. It's a Main Belt asteroid, so 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.640 it's out beyond the orbit of Mars. Discovered in nineteen 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:22.280 by Japanese astronomers Takashi Urata and Yasuhiro Shimizu at the 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.480 Nachi Katsura Observatory, and it was named, of course after 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:29.839 the Fermius Bandersnatch. Awesome. Now, one of the this is 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.799 just sort of the introductory material on The Bandersnatch, because 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:36.080 for the vast majority of this episode we're going to 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:38.839 be talking about what, as I guess, the most recent 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:44.520 uh cinematic in vocation of the Bandersnatch, and that is 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:48.640 the Black Mirror episode. Oh, it's not even an episode. 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:51.920 It's a Black Mirror film that came out on Netflix 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:55.200 December of what was theeen, so a little over a 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:58.719 year ago. Um and uh, and there's a lot to 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:01.600 unpack here. Actually I didn't watch it until this week, 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:03.920 so I knew you wanted to do an episode about it, 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:05.680 and I was like, Okay, I'll finally see what all 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:09.560 the fuss is about. I was very impressed. Yeah, I'll 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:11.800 get I'll certainly get more into my my very thoughts 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:13.520 on it later. I was impressed with it when it 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:15.480 came out, and then since we were going to do 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.480 the episode, I rewatched it for the first time since 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:22.440 its original release earlier this week, and uh, and I 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:24.440 have to say it, I thought it held up. I 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:27.360 even got a different ending and a different dead end 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.600 at one point than I had encountered previously. So it 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:32.920 was it was like, why every time you watch a 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:36.520 film that you like again you find new things, but 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.679 in this case you can actually get a different ending. Yeah. 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:42.000 Now we're going to be exploring today some of the 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:45.000 some of the science and the ideas and philosophy that 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:48.640 are alluded to in bandersnatch Um. But in doing so, 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:52.520 of course, this will involve some spoilers for this strange film. 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:55.040 So I would say there are a couple of places 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:56.960 we're not We're not gonna go through and explore every 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:00.400 possible ending or anything like that. But if you are 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:02.760 in the case where you haven't seen it yet and 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:05.520 you don't want anything at all spoiled, you should probably 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:07.800 stop here and go watch it first before you listen 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:09.920 to the rest of the episode. But if you've already 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:11.760 seen it, or you haven't seen it, and you don't 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:13.880 care about minor spoilers that don't go all the way 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:17.679 to all the endings, then you know, forge ahead with us. Please. However, 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:19.880 some of you may be asking the question, what are 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:22.440 you talking about? What is black Mirror? Uh? So we 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:24.720 should probably take a few minutes to just refresh you 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:28.480 on what this is. It is a is the word refresh? 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:32.400 Would that be the word? We should shock you to 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:37.200 the bone Alright, So Black Mirror is in essence a 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:41.480 sci fi anthology television series, uh, in the same vein 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:44.800 as the Twilight Zone, the Outer Limits, Uh, these various 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:47.559 shows we've discussed in the past. I might call it 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:51.760 pretty often techno horror. Not every episode is the same, 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:56.600 but there's essentially no horror movie as scary as the 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:01.000 scariest episodes of Black Mirror, especially really the ones that 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:06.840 manage to take fairly plausible technological scenarios and and follow 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:10.679 them to their logical conclusions. I mean, it's, uh, it's 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.000 a show that's very good at conjuring up the worst 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:20.439 possible nightmares of like the intersection of uh, capitalism and technology. Yeah, definitely, 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:24.600 episodes tend to have a technological swing to the story, 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:28.520 and they tend to deal on some level with with 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:34.959 contemporary anxiety about current technology and emerging technology. What what 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:37.800 what are these technologies doing to our lives? What may 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.560 they do to our lives in the future? And you know, 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:43.960 sometimes they take varying speculative leaps there, of course, since 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:47.720 it is science fiction. But you I would say, you 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:50.840 typically leave an episode of Black Mirror, uh, feeling a 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:53.719 little worse about the world. I know that Netflix, their 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:57.120 current masters, are very into the whole binge model, but 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:01.280 I personally find it very difficult to binge Black Mirror 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:03.960 in part because each episode, of course, is a self 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:07.760 contained story with it with its with with characters and 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:10.880 a plot, etcetera. But then also it's like they're often 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:12.760 like a punch in the gut, and I just can't 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.600 just sit there and take one punch after the other. 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:19.240 Apart from one very sweet, very nice episode, there's essentially 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:23.760 nothing that makes me feel as bad as Black Mirror. Well, 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:25.480 you know, I was thinking. I was thinking about this 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:27.640 because there are definitely some very bleak episode. They are 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:30.720 episodes of Black Mirror that I I admire that I 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:34.800 will never watch again. But but then I look back 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:37.240 at my some of my favorite episodes. My favorite episodes 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:41.200 are probably San Junipero, The U S. S. Calister, and 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:44.560 metal Head. Two of those one of those is still 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:47.160 pretty bleak, but two of two of those are actually 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:50.520 pretty upbeat, probably the most upbeat episodes of the show. 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:53.880 Um and uh. And maybe that's the reason I would 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:56.080 come back to them, because if I'm gonna double dip, 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:58.840 I want to double dip for optimism sake. Now, in 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:00.720 terms that we can't talk about Black Mirror without talking 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:06.599 about the creator behind it, the main creative individual behind it, 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:10.120 and that is Charlie Brooker, a British writer and humorist 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:13.280 whom the earliest thing that he worked on that I 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:15.679 was familiar with was that he worked on Chris Morris's 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:19.679 excellent news satire brass Ie Um. And then he also 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:23.840 created a pretty great zombie movie titled dead Set in 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:27.560 two thousand eight, in which the zombie apocalypse breaks out 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:33.160 uh in and around a Big Brother style reality TV production. 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:35.600 Feel like two thousand eight was sort of like maybe 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:38.160 two thousand seven. Two thousand eight was like peak zombie 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:41.400 satire movie. Yeah. And the thing about this one, though, 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:45.120 the premise sounds like a comedy, and so I acquired 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:47.400 a copy of it, thinking, oh, this is a comedy, 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:49.319 and this is a guy that worked on brass Ie. 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:52.719 This is gonna be hilarious. And it is not a 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:55.720 straight up comedy. It is a pretty terrifying film. But 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:58.720 you see shades of that in Black Mirror. Sometimes there 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:03.320 is a premise that could sound like a joke, but 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:07.800 then it is taken and considered with such intensity that 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:11.000 it works. Yeah, what if like a major tech company 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:14.080 used eye tracking software to make sure you were always 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:16.720 watching their ads, and if you didn't watch them, they 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:20.079 would ring sirens in your brain and deduct money from 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:22.800 your bank account until you started watching the ads. Again, 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:25.520 sounds like a joke, but like if you just said 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.000 take that seriously for a bit, uh and explore it, 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:32.319 that becomes like a nightmare of of of techno sci fi. 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:37.320 Absolutely now. Black Mirror began in two seasons and a 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.120 holiday special came out and ran on Channel four in 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:44.240 the UK. Then Netflix started carrying it, and Netflix became 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:47.600 the owner of the main publisher of the program. However 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:49.520 you want to look at it starting with season three 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:53.120 in October. Of all, in all, it is thus far 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:57.360 gone five seasons, twenty one episodes, and that's not counting 0:12:57.559 --> 0:12:59.679 the film band or Snatch, which again came out in 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:03.600 d Member. Of these bits of publisher information will actually 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:06.400 become relevant later on as we discussed the story, because 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:09.360 the ideas there, because at the end we definitely get 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:11.840 into some citiz scenarios where we have to consider the 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:15.920 fact that Netflix is the the business daddy behind the 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:19.720 Black Mirror, so Bandersnatch, the film the Black Mirror film 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:22.719 was actually directed by David Slade, who I was like, 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:25.240 where do I know that name from. He's done several things, 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:27.240 but one of them was he did one of the 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.760 Twilight movies. Yes, and I've seen that, that particular one. 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:32.840 It was the second one, I think, and it's that's 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:36.400 a I'm not a huge Twilight fan, but that is 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:39.120 a very watchable Twilight movie and has a great soundtrack. 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.040 It's got Tommy York on it. Oh yeah. He also 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:45.079 directed the Black Mirror episode metal Head that I alluded 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:48.000 to earlier, and there are some callbacks to metal Head 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:50.800 in the band or Snatch episode. Now, I guess one 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.400 thing we haven't gotten fully into so far is the 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:57.480 fact that the Black Mirror movie Bandersnatch is it's an 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:00.599 interactive movie, which makes it very unique. Right. This was 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.040 the big selling point on it and uh and and 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.720 indeed is one of the I mean, it's it's a 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:07.520 key part of the way you consume it, but it 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:11.360 is also very important thematically, like you know, true to form. 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:15.240 The creators here really thought long and hard about how 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:21.120 to utilize um an interactive system uh within the work 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:23.800 and make the work comment on that system as well. 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:26.640 The interactive system being Netflix like the fact that the 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.680 user can make inputs on the movie. Yeah, basically, that's 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:32.440 what it will amounts to. Is you you start off 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:36.320 watching it, it it seems like a normal Netflix presentation, but 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:41.240 then you're in my case, my Xbox one controller would 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:45.040 suddenly vibrate and then this little the screen at the 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:47.680 bottom of the screen. You're suddenly presented with two choices 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.400 and a timer and you have to choose, Uh, you 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:53.200 know what is going to happen with the character is 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:56.840 going to do, et cetera. Now, this is you know, 0:14:57.040 --> 0:14:59.400 when you're just watch checking out the film, you you 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:02.840 might not realize how much work goes into this, but uh, 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:05.960 it took apparently a huge amount of work to shoot 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:10.120 all these various branching paths, because it becomes a you 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:13.960 know this this this tree, this branching system of possibilities 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:18.000 when you start presenting the user with these interactive choices. 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:22.440 For instance, the previously the longest episode of Black Mirror 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:25.440 was an episode called Hated in the Nation, which was 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:28.880 eighty nine minutes long. That's that's future length, right, what 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:32.360 ninety minutes is usually the length you shoot for with 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:37.800 the film. Well, when you're watching Bandersnatch. Depending on your choices, 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.680 the film can run anywhere between ninety minutes and two 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:45.440 and a half hours. And in order to make this work, 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:50.160 as pointed out by a Jackie Strauss in the Hollywood Reporter, uh, 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:52.640 this means they had to shoot like five hours of 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.480 footage so that they could actually cover all of these 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:58.960 various choices. And you may watch it like, for instance, 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:01.360 the first time I watched it, there were plenty of 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:03.960 scenes I did not see, and then when I watched 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:05.920 it again, there were films, there were scenes that I 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:07.880 saw the first time that I did not see, and 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:10.520 I got an entirely different ending that I never didn't 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:13.120 even know about. And then there of course various Easter 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:16.680 eggs and even I've read quote golden Easter eggs that 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.720 are spread throughout, things that most viewers will not find 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:23.000 unless they spend a great deal of time going through 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:26.440 and going back through and backing up, etcetera. With this 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:31.200 interactive piece encouraging unhealthy obsessive behavior exactly, I mean it is. 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:33.600 It is black mirror. Now, as far as the choices 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:37.120 as you make in the in band or snatch, um, 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:42.040 you start off making very small choices. It seemed very consequential. 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:47.120 For instance, choosing the main characters breakfast cereal. He's presented 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:50.320 his father shows two boxes and you decide which one 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:52.040 he's going to have for breakfast. Yeah. I think it 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:54.680 was what like frosted flakes or sugar puffs or something. 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:57.120 I remember what I realized after I made that choice 0:16:57.680 --> 0:16:59.800 was I was like, oh no, I think I chose 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:03.240 the brand that I was more familiar with. Ah, well, 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:05.280 we'll come back to that later. That that is an 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:07.879 important point that will come back to later on in 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:10.879 the episode. But but at first, it's it's what kind 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:12.840 of serial does he want? All right? It doesn't doesn't 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:14.720 seem to matter much, and and it also gives you 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:18.600 a chance to try out the technology low stakes. But uh, 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:21.399 and and then also later on you choose what music 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:23.920 is going to listen to in uh when he's on 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:25.679 the bus, which is kind of fun. I think you 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:30.280 get to choose between a rhythmic song and something else. 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:32.640 I can't remember the other one. I think it's Thompson Twins, 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:35.879 that's it. Yeah, and and uh, and then later on 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:37.720 he's in a record store and you get to choose 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:39.879 which record he's gonna buy. And this is also pretty 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:43.120 great because one of the choices is Tangerine Dreams excellent 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:47.680 nine four album Phaedra, which is incredible, absolutely. In fact, 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:49.840 I was listening to that again this morning while I 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:53.120 was doing some prep for this episode. Yeah, it's it's 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:56.280 excellent stuff. How However, this time around, I forced myself 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:59.680 to choose the other album instead, the other album being 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:04.840 a Sao Tamita's The Bermuda Triangle, which very strange. Yeah, 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:07.360 very strange work, but very very good. I was really 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:10.480 not that familiar with with with this artist or this work, 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:12.119 which is apparently kind of hard to come by and 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.520 streaming unless you just find like a YouTube full album rip. 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:18.800 But but yeah, this is just a taste of the soundtrack. 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:22.160 The Bandersnatch has a wonderful soundtrack, including not only these 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:26.240 artists but also Depeche Mode, Laurie Anderson. Great stuff. But 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:29.000 let's come back to the choices you make in this 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:34.600 interactive system. So again, they start off seeming largely inconsequential. 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:36.959 They start off seeming a little bit fun, you know, 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:39.879 it's just surface level stuff like what what's his breakfast cereal? 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:43.640 What's his musical choice? But then they become increasingly high 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:47.000 stakes and even nerve racking to decide on. Like suddenly 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:50.600 you're when you're controller vibrates and you're presented with this choice, 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:53.800 and sometimes, yeah, you feel this dread because sometimes the 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:56.359 choice is neither one is all that great. Sometimes the 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:59.040 choices are kind of horrible. And there's at least one 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:02.840 point where you have no choice. There's there's something to select, 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:06.880 but there's no alternative selection, and that feels maddening as well. 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:09.080 And and you have a time or you have like 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:11.679 what I think it's ten seconds to choose something, and 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:14.920 if you don't choose, Netflix chooses for you. But Netflix 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:20.000 reports of viewers actively made choices, uh when they watched 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.520 band or Snatch. Now, in my experience, it wasn't that 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.640 they chose for you at random. It was that whichever 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:28.119 one of the two options was highlighted and it was 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:30.320 like a you know, on off toggle, Like you couldn't 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:33.520 select neither one. You were just selecting one or the 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:35.800 other and then you could and you could go with 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:37.879 it or you could not go with it, and whichever 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:41.440 one you had highlighted would just proceed. Uh. So there's 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:44.920 this kind of um uh, there's this horrible sense of 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:47.920 like helplessness that that imposes on you as the viewer. 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:51.480 I have not seen it. Sometimes I'll go into a 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:54.040 restaurant or a bar and they'll have Netflix on playing 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:58.520 some show. I've never seen them showing band or Snatch, 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:01.680 probably for this reason, letting all the bar patrons vote 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:04.080 to the side, oh yeah, or just going crazy like 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:06.800 why is nobody clicking a button? Why is nobody interacting 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:08.920 with this? Don't let don't let that choice go through. 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:13.040 So eventually, as you, as you interact with Bandersnatch, a 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:15.959 warping of time occurs. You find yourself coming back around 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:19.360 to pass choices, like a wanderer lost in a maze. 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:21.920 And of course, befitting of a maze, there is a 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:24.000 sort of minotaur in all of this. There is the 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:28.480 BANDERSNATCHA is it the Bandersnatch or is it the Demon Packs? 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:30.840 It is the Demon Packs, yeah, but I also it 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:34.639 is also the Bandersnatch. Like it's design. Its design is 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:39.720 roughly based on that illustration of the Bandersnatch we talked about. Okay, cool, alright, 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:41.480 We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:44.560 back we will get into the themes of Bandersnatch and 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:51.359 into the nature of of choice and free will. Alright, 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:54.720 we're back. So there are a lot of interesting ideas, 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:59.719 cool themes, historical tidbits that are thrown together, we'll not 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:04.560 throw in together, stitched together, reassembled in band or Snatch. Uh, 0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:07.679 that that give it its unique feel. Here's just a 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:10.080 list of some of the things. First of all, video 0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:14.760 game design circa four because that is the setting. Yeah, 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:17.280 it takes place in the eighties with eighties music, eighties 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:20.760 fashion and all that stuff. But they're also programming you know, 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:24.520 old school adventure games for like the Commodore sixty four 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:27.480 and stuff. Yeah. Another huge part of it aren't choose 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:31.120 your own adventure books? Um, which are you know, directly referenced. 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:33.960 And then there is a book within band or Snatch 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:37.880 titled bander Snatch that is this enormous tone that we're 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:42.480 told is essentially a choose your own adventure type scenario. Uh. 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:46.880 Do you have any fond memories of choosehown adventure books? Absolutely? 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:49.359 I was obsessed with them. I loved them when I 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:52.240 was in elementary school, and I would love them despite 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:54.560 the fact that you know, you die in most of 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:58.760 the endings like it imposes a kind of horrible paranoid 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:02.080 fatalism on a shot. I think, where you know, oh, 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:04.600 this is a book about exploring the Arctic, but almost 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:06.639 no matter what you do, you get eaten by a 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:09.280 polar bear or fall beneath the ice and you can't 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:12.600