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Speaker 1: And the banker, inspired with a courage so new it

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Speaker 1: was a matter for general remark, rushed madly ahead and

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Speaker 1: was lost to their view in his zeal to discover

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Speaker 1: the snark. But while he was seeking with thimbles and care,

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Speaker 1: a bender snatch swiftly drew nigh and grabbed at the banker,

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Speaker 1: who shrieked in despair, for he knew it was useless

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Speaker 1: to fly. He offered large discount. He offered a check

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Speaker 1: drawn to bearer for seven pounds ten, But the banderstatch

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Speaker 1: merely extended its neck and grabbed at the banker again,

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Speaker 1: without rest or pause, while those frumious jaws went savagely

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Speaker 1: snapping around. He skipped, and he hopped, and he floundered

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Speaker 1: and flopped till fainting he fell to the ground. The

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Speaker 1: bandersnatch fled as the others appeared, led on by that

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Speaker 1: fear stricken yell, and the bellman remarked, it is just

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Speaker 1: as I feared, and solemnly told on his bell Welcome

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Speaker 1: to stuff to blow your mind? A production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, are you welcome to

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Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind? My name is Robert Lamb,

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Speaker 1: and I'm Joe McCormick and Robert Are you feeling more

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Speaker 1: frabjous or more frumious today? I guess more frumious. Frumious

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Speaker 1: would be my answer. That was, of course the poem

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Speaker 1: The Hunting of the Snark by Lewis Carroll, But I

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Speaker 1: guess a number of people were probably more familiar with

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Speaker 1: the Bandersnatch from another poem by Lewis Carroll, that being

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Speaker 1: the jabberwat chapwakee Yes, where the Bandersnatch is just alluded

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Speaker 1: to is another monstrous creature that might be running around

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Speaker 1: the woods. I love it when a poet first name

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Speaker 1: something in a kind of in a in a listical

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Speaker 1: kind of way, you know, poem, poem as listical, uh,

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Speaker 1: and then later it comes through in another poem with

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Speaker 1: more force. I think that's sort of happened with um

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Speaker 1: with the dim Organ, right, Yeah, yeah, I think so.

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Speaker 1: And and in this case, yeah, the bander Snatch. There's

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Speaker 1: not a lot really said about it in the writings

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Speaker 1: of Lewis Carroll. Lewis Carroll, by the way, was the

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Speaker 1: pen name of Charles Lutwich Dodgson who lived eighteen thirty

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Speaker 1: two through eighteen nine, and he first introduced the band

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Speaker 1: or snatch again just in a list of creatures that

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Speaker 1: might pop up in his eighteen seventy two novel Through

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Speaker 1: the Looking Glass in that poem the Jabberwocke, and then

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Speaker 1: pops up again in this eighteen seventy four poem that

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Speaker 1: we just read, the Hunting of the Snark, which we

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Speaker 1: didn't read the whole of the poem. That was just

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Speaker 1: an exerpt from it. I think where the like, who's

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Speaker 1: the banker? The banker is one of these people who

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Speaker 1: goes on a voyage hunting the snark. I think I've

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Speaker 1: read that that poem was has been interpreted by some

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Speaker 1: as as metaphorical of you know, that it's supposed to

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Speaker 1: be an allegory about the search for human happiness and contentment.

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Speaker 1: But then also I think i've heard it alleged that

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Speaker 1: the poem actually has no allegorical meaning, that it's just

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Speaker 1: it's just kind of silly. Yeah, I mean, in that sense,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of enigmatic. And the creature itself is enigmatic,

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Speaker 1: scarcely described, but certainly best avoided at all costs. There's

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Speaker 1: no way to outrun it, no way to escape its intensity. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And by the way frumious is a combination of fuming

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Speaker 1: and furious. Carroll just gram these two words together to

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Speaker 1: make a nice new adjective for strange. Monster is a

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Speaker 1: perfectly cromulent word. Very frabjous um. And I was wondering,

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Speaker 1: do you need a vorpal sword if you go up

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Speaker 1: against a vander snatch or is that only for the

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Speaker 1: jabberwock Well, it certainly worked on the Jabberwockie. I don't

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Speaker 1: know about the bander Snatch. There's there are no tales

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Speaker 1: of slaying it, are there, at least not in Lewis

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Speaker 1: Carroll's original work. Does the vorpal sword show up as

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Speaker 1: an artifact in D and D? It does? It certainly does. Yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: pretty good sword. Oh yeah, very good sword. Now. The

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Speaker 1: name Bandersnatch has been invoked many times over the years

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Speaker 1: and works of fantasy and science fiction. I've seen it

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Speaker 1: pop up as a space slug, another such creature. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's just kind of an enigmatic name for like a

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Speaker 1: government project or something, because it's a great it's a

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Speaker 1: great name. In depictions of Lewis Carroll's work, it is

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Speaker 1: often take on a mammalian character. Nineteen century children's illustrator

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Speaker 1: Peter Newell depicted it as kind of a furry horned

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Speaker 1: beast that might resemble a cat or maybe a wolf

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Speaker 1: like creature. Uh and this one this is a very

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Speaker 1: popular image. And then film adaptations have depicted it as

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Speaker 1: both bor like and cat like. The two thousand ten

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Speaker 1: Tim Burton adaptation has a very memorable creature design for

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Speaker 1: the Bandersnatch. Tim the Tim Burton Alice in Wonderland. Is

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Speaker 1: that what you're talking about? Yeah, yeah, I have. I've

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Speaker 1: seen the first one. Um, I never ventured that far

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Speaker 1: into late Burton. Well, it it had some things going

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Speaker 1: for it. It had it had a really good cast,

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Speaker 1: and it had some some interesting character designs I'll say that,

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Speaker 1: and and a very monstrous looking bander snatch. Okay, now,

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Speaker 1: just a couple of other interesting uh tidbits about Lewis Carroll. Um.

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Speaker 1: He was a mathematician. He worked in geometry and new

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Speaker 1: ideas in algebra, logic, machines, ciphers. So between this and

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Speaker 1: other details of of his life, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: black mirror to the originator of the bander Snatch. Also

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Speaker 1: in Hallucinations, the book by Oliver Sacks, The late Oliver Sax.

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Speaker 1: Sax points out that Carroll was known to suffer from

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Speaker 1: classical migraines, and that Carol W. Lippman and others have

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Speaker 1: suggested that his migraine experiences UH may have contributed to

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Speaker 1: the way he envisioned through the Looking Glass and Alice

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Speaker 1: in Wonderland, like the skewing of time and space. Um.

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Speaker 1: Also you have auditory hallucinations that are not uncommon in migraines,

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Speaker 1: as well as old factory hallucinations. I've also seen descriptions

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Speaker 1: of of uh, this lifting feeling, that, this feeling of

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Speaker 1: being moved through space. Yeah, I guess the the extension

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Speaker 1: of the lightheadedness that comes on with the aura and

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Speaker 1: all that. Yeah. Um. You know there's actually an asteroid

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Speaker 1: named Bandersnatch. Oh. I didn't know this and I looked

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Speaker 1: this up. Bander Snatch. It's a Main Belt asteroid, so

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Speaker 1: it's out beyond the orbit of Mars. Discovered in nineteen

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Speaker 1: by Japanese astronomers Takashi Urata and Yasuhiro Shimizu at the

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Speaker 1: Nachi Katsura Observatory, and it was named, of course after

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Speaker 1: the Fermius Bandersnatch. Awesome. Now, one of the this is

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Speaker 1: just sort of the introductory material on The Bandersnatch, because

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Speaker 1: for the vast majority of this episode we're going to

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Speaker 1: be talking about what, as I guess, the most recent

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Speaker 1: uh cinematic in vocation of the Bandersnatch, and that is

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Speaker 1: the Black Mirror episode. Oh, it's not even an episode.

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Speaker 1: It's a Black Mirror film that came out on Netflix

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Speaker 1: December of what was theeen, so a little over a

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Speaker 1: year ago. Um and uh, and there's a lot to

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Speaker 1: unpack here. Actually I didn't watch it until this week,

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Speaker 1: so I knew you wanted to do an episode about it,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, Okay, I'll finally see what all

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Speaker 1: the fuss is about. I was very impressed. Yeah, I'll

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Speaker 1: get I'll certainly get more into my my very thoughts

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Speaker 1: on it later. I was impressed with it when it

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Speaker 1: came out, and then since we were going to do

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Speaker 1: the episode, I rewatched it for the first time since

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Speaker 1: its original release earlier this week, and uh, and I

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Speaker 1: have to say it, I thought it held up. I

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Speaker 1: even got a different ending and a different dead end

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Speaker 1: at one point than I had encountered previously. So it

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Speaker 1: was it was like, why every time you watch a

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Speaker 1: film that you like again you find new things, but

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Speaker 1: in this case you can actually get a different ending. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now we're going to be exploring today some of the

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Speaker 1: some of the science and the ideas and philosophy that

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Speaker 1: are alluded to in bandersnatch Um. But in doing so,

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Speaker 1: of course, this will involve some spoilers for this strange film.

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Speaker 1: So I would say there are a couple of places

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Speaker 1: we're not We're not gonna go through and explore every

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Speaker 1: possible ending or anything like that. But if you are

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Speaker 1: in the case where you haven't seen it yet and

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Speaker 1: you don't want anything at all spoiled, you should probably

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Speaker 1: stop here and go watch it first before you listen

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Speaker 1: to the rest of the episode. But if you've already

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Speaker 1: seen it, or you haven't seen it, and you don't

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Speaker 1: care about minor spoilers that don't go all the way

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Speaker 1: to all the endings, then you know, forge ahead with us. Please. However,

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Speaker 1: some of you may be asking the question, what are

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Speaker 1: you talking about? What is black Mirror? Uh? So we

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Speaker 1: should probably take a few minutes to just refresh you

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Speaker 1: on what this is. It is a is the word refresh?

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Speaker 1: Would that be the word? We should shock you to

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Speaker 1: the bone Alright, So Black Mirror is in essence a

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Speaker 1: sci fi anthology television series, uh, in the same vein

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Speaker 1: as the Twilight Zone, the Outer Limits, Uh, these various

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Speaker 1: shows we've discussed in the past. I might call it

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Speaker 1: pretty often techno horror. Not every episode is the same,

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Speaker 1: but there's essentially no horror movie as scary as the

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Speaker 1: scariest episodes of Black Mirror, especially really the ones that

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Speaker 1: manage to take fairly plausible technological scenarios and and follow

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Speaker 1: them to their logical conclusions. I mean, it's, uh, it's

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Speaker 1: a show that's very good at conjuring up the worst

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Speaker 1: possible nightmares of like the intersection of uh, capitalism and technology. Yeah, definitely,

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Speaker 1: episodes tend to have a technological swing to the story,

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Speaker 1: and they tend to deal on some level with with

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Speaker 1: contemporary anxiety about current technology and emerging technology. What what

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Speaker 1: what are these technologies doing to our lives? What may

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Speaker 1: they do to our lives in the future? And you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes they take varying speculative leaps there, of course, since

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Speaker 1: it is science fiction. But you I would say, you

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Speaker 1: typically leave an episode of Black Mirror, uh, feeling a

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Speaker 1: little worse about the world. I know that Netflix, their

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Speaker 1: current masters, are very into the whole binge model, but

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Speaker 1: I personally find it very difficult to binge Black Mirror

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Speaker 1: in part because each episode, of course, is a self

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Speaker 1: contained story with it with its with with characters and

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Speaker 1: a plot, etcetera. But then also it's like they're often

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Speaker 1: like a punch in the gut, and I just can't

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Speaker 1: just sit there and take one punch after the other.

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Speaker 1: Apart from one very sweet, very nice episode, there's essentially

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Speaker 1: nothing that makes me feel as bad as Black Mirror. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I was thinking. I was thinking about this

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Speaker 1: because there are definitely some very bleak episode. They are

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Speaker 1: episodes of Black Mirror that I I admire that I

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Speaker 1: will never watch again. But but then I look back

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Speaker 1: at my some of my favorite episodes. My favorite episodes

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Speaker 1: are probably San Junipero, The U S. S. Calister, and

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Speaker 1: metal Head. Two of those one of those is still

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Speaker 1: pretty bleak, but two of two of those are actually

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Speaker 1: pretty upbeat, probably the most upbeat episodes of the show.

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Speaker 1: Um and uh. And maybe that's the reason I would

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Speaker 1: come back to them, because if I'm gonna double dip,

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Speaker 1: I want to double dip for optimism sake. Now, in

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Speaker 1: terms that we can't talk about Black Mirror without talking

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Speaker 1: about the creator behind it, the main creative individual behind it,

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Speaker 1: and that is Charlie Brooker, a British writer and humorist

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Speaker 1: whom the earliest thing that he worked on that I

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Speaker 1: was familiar with was that he worked on Chris Morris's

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Speaker 1: excellent news satire brass Ie Um. And then he also

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Speaker 1: created a pretty great zombie movie titled dead Set in

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Speaker 1: two thousand eight, in which the zombie apocalypse breaks out

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Speaker 1: uh in and around a Big Brother style reality TV production.

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Speaker 1: Feel like two thousand eight was sort of like maybe

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Speaker 1: two thousand seven. Two thousand eight was like peak zombie

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Speaker 1: satire movie. Yeah. And the thing about this one, though,

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Speaker 1: the premise sounds like a comedy, and so I acquired

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Speaker 1: a copy of it, thinking, oh, this is a comedy,

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Speaker 1: and this is a guy that worked on brass Ie.

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Speaker 1: This is gonna be hilarious. And it is not a

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Speaker 1: straight up comedy. It is a pretty terrifying film. But

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Speaker 1: you see shades of that in Black Mirror. Sometimes there

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Speaker 1: is a premise that could sound like a joke, but

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Speaker 1: then it is taken and considered with such intensity that

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Speaker 1: it works. Yeah, what if like a major tech company

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Speaker 1: used eye tracking software to make sure you were always

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Speaker 1: watching their ads, and if you didn't watch them, they

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Speaker 1: would ring sirens in your brain and deduct money from

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Speaker 1: your bank account until you started watching the ads. Again,

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Speaker 1: sounds like a joke, but like if you just said

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Speaker 1: take that seriously for a bit, uh and explore it,

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Speaker 1: that becomes like a nightmare of of of techno sci fi.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely now. Black Mirror began in two seasons and a

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Speaker 1: holiday special came out and ran on Channel four in

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Speaker 1: the UK. Then Netflix started carrying it, and Netflix became

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Speaker 1: the owner of the main publisher of the program. However

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Speaker 1: you want to look at it starting with season three

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Speaker 1: in October. Of all, in all, it is thus far

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Speaker 1: gone five seasons, twenty one episodes, and that's not counting

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Speaker 1: the film band or Snatch, which again came out in

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Speaker 1: d Member. Of these bits of publisher information will actually

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Speaker 1: become relevant later on as we discussed the story, because

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Speaker 1: the ideas there, because at the end we definitely get

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Speaker 1: into some citiz scenarios where we have to consider the

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Speaker 1: fact that Netflix is the the business daddy behind the

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Speaker 1: Black Mirror, so Bandersnatch, the film the Black Mirror film

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Speaker 1: was actually directed by David Slade, who I was like,

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Speaker 1: where do I know that name from. He's done several things,

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Speaker 1: but one of them was he did one of the

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Speaker 1: Twilight movies. Yes, and I've seen that, that particular one.

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Speaker 1: It was the second one, I think, and it's that's

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Speaker 1: a I'm not a huge Twilight fan, but that is

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Speaker 1: a very watchable Twilight movie and has a great soundtrack.

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Speaker 1: It's got Tommy York on it. Oh yeah. He also

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Speaker 1: directed the Black Mirror episode metal Head that I alluded

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Speaker 1: to earlier, and there are some callbacks to metal Head

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Speaker 1: in the band or Snatch episode. Now, I guess one

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Speaker 1: thing we haven't gotten fully into so far is the

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Speaker 1: fact that the Black Mirror movie Bandersnatch is it's an

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Speaker 1: interactive movie, which makes it very unique. Right. This was

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Speaker 1: the big selling point on it and uh and and

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Speaker 1: indeed is one of the I mean, it's it's a

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Speaker 1: key part of the way you consume it, but it

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Speaker 1: is also very important thematically, like you know, true to form.

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Speaker 1: The creators here really thought long and hard about how

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Speaker 1: to utilize um an interactive system uh within the work

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Speaker 1: and make the work comment on that system as well.

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Speaker 1: The interactive system being Netflix like the fact that the

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Speaker 1: user can make inputs on the movie. Yeah, basically, that's

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Speaker 1: what it will amounts to. Is you you start off

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Speaker 1: watching it, it it seems like a normal Netflix presentation, but

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Speaker 1: then you're in my case, my Xbox one controller would

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Speaker 1: suddenly vibrate and then this little the screen at the

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Speaker 1: bottom of the screen. You're suddenly presented with two choices

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Speaker 1: and a timer and you have to choose, Uh, you

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Speaker 1: know what is going to happen with the character is

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Speaker 1: going to do, et cetera. Now, this is you know,

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Speaker 1: when you're just watch checking out the film, you you

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Speaker 1: might not realize how much work goes into this, but uh,

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Speaker 1: it took apparently a huge amount of work to shoot

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Speaker 1: all these various branching paths, because it becomes a you

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Speaker 1: know this this this tree, this branching system of possibilities

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Speaker 1: when you start presenting the user with these interactive choices.

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Speaker 1: For instance, the previously the longest episode of Black Mirror

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Speaker 1: was an episode called Hated in the Nation, which was

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Speaker 1: eighty nine minutes long. That's that's future length, right, what

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Speaker 1: ninety minutes is usually the length you shoot for with

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Speaker 1: the film. Well, when you're watching Bandersnatch. Depending on your choices,

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Speaker 1: the film can run anywhere between ninety minutes and two

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Speaker 1: and a half hours. And in order to make this work,

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Speaker 1: as pointed out by a Jackie Strauss in the Hollywood Reporter, uh,

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Speaker 1: this means they had to shoot like five hours of

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Speaker 1: footage so that they could actually cover all of these

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Speaker 1: various choices. And you may watch it like, for instance,

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Speaker 1: the first time I watched it, there were plenty of

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Speaker 1: scenes I did not see, and then when I watched

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Speaker 1: it again, there were films, there were scenes that I

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Speaker 1: saw the first time that I did not see, and

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Speaker 1: I got an entirely different ending that I never didn't

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Speaker 1: even know about. And then there of course various Easter

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Speaker 1: eggs and even I've read quote golden Easter eggs that

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Speaker 1: are spread throughout, things that most viewers will not find

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Speaker 1: unless they spend a great deal of time going through

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Speaker 1: and going back through and backing up, etcetera. With this

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Speaker 1: interactive piece encouraging unhealthy obsessive behavior exactly, I mean it is.

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Speaker 1: It is black mirror. Now, as far as the choices

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Speaker 1: as you make in the in band or snatch, um,

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Speaker 1: you start off making very small choices. It seemed very consequential.

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Speaker 1: For instance, choosing the main characters breakfast cereal. He's presented

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Speaker 1: his father shows two boxes and you decide which one

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Speaker 1: he's going to have for breakfast. Yeah. I think it

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Speaker 1: was what like frosted flakes or sugar puffs or something.

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Speaker 1: I remember what I realized after I made that choice

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Speaker 1: was I was like, oh no, I think I chose

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Speaker 1: the brand that I was more familiar with. Ah, well,

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Speaker 1: we'll come back to that later. That that is an

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Speaker 1: important point that will come back to later on in

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Speaker 1: the episode. But but at first, it's it's what kind

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Speaker 1: of serial does he want? All right? It doesn't doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem to matter much, and and it also gives you

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Speaker 1: a chance to try out the technology low stakes. But uh,

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Speaker 1: and and then also later on you choose what music

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Speaker 1: is going to listen to in uh when he's on

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Speaker 1: the bus, which is kind of fun. I think you

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Speaker 1: get to choose between a rhythmic song and something else.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember the other one. I think it's Thompson Twins,

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Speaker 1: that's it. Yeah, and and uh, and then later on

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Speaker 1: he's in a record store and you get to choose

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Speaker 1: which record he's gonna buy. And this is also pretty

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Speaker 1: great because one of the choices is Tangerine Dreams excellent

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Speaker 1: nine four album Phaedra, which is incredible, absolutely. In fact,

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Speaker 1: I was listening to that again this morning while I

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Speaker 1: was doing some prep for this episode. Yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: excellent stuff. How However, this time around, I forced myself

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Speaker 1: to choose the other album instead, the other album being

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Speaker 1: a Sao Tamita's The Bermuda Triangle, which very strange. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: very strange work, but very very good. I was really

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Speaker 1: not that familiar with with with this artist or this work,

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Speaker 1: which is apparently kind of hard to come by and

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Speaker 1: streaming unless you just find like a YouTube full album rip.

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Speaker 1: But but yeah, this is just a taste of the soundtrack.

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Speaker 1: The Bandersnatch has a wonderful soundtrack, including not only these

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Speaker 1: artists but also Depeche Mode, Laurie Anderson. Great stuff. But

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Speaker 1: let's come back to the choices you make in this

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Speaker 1: interactive system. So again, they start off seeming largely inconsequential.

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Speaker 1: They start off seeming a little bit fun, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's just surface level stuff like what what's his breakfast cereal?

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Speaker 1: What's his musical choice? But then they become increasingly high

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Speaker 1: stakes and even nerve racking to decide on. Like suddenly

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Speaker 1: you're when you're controller vibrates and you're presented with this choice,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes, yeah, you feel this dread because sometimes the

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Speaker 1: choice is neither one is all that great. Sometimes the

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Speaker 1: choices are kind of horrible. And there's at least one

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Speaker 1: point where you have no choice. There's there's something to select,

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Speaker 1: but there's no alternative selection, and that feels maddening as well.

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Speaker 1: And and you have a time or you have like

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Speaker 1: what I think it's ten seconds to choose something, and

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Speaker 1: if you don't choose, Netflix chooses for you. But Netflix

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Speaker 1: reports of viewers actively made choices, uh when they watched

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Speaker 1: band or Snatch. Now, in my experience, it wasn't that

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Speaker 1: they chose for you at random. It was that whichever

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Speaker 1: one of the two options was highlighted and it was

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Speaker 1: like a you know, on off toggle, Like you couldn't

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Speaker 1: select neither one. You were just selecting one or the

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Speaker 1: other and then you could and you could go with

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Speaker 1: it or you could not go with it, and whichever

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Speaker 1: one you had highlighted would just proceed. Uh. So there's

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Speaker 1: this kind of um uh, there's this horrible sense of

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Speaker 1: like helplessness that that imposes on you as the viewer.

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Speaker 1: I have not seen it. Sometimes I'll go into a

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Speaker 1: restaurant or a bar and they'll have Netflix on playing

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Speaker 1: some show. I've never seen them showing band or Snatch,

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Speaker 1: probably for this reason, letting all the bar patrons vote

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Speaker 1: to the side, oh yeah, or just going crazy like

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Speaker 1: why is nobody clicking a button? Why is nobody interacting

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Speaker 1: with this? Don't let don't let that choice go through.

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Speaker 1: So eventually, as you, as you interact with Bandersnatch, a

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Speaker 1: warping of time occurs. You find yourself coming back around

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Speaker 1: to pass choices, like a wanderer lost in a maze.

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Speaker 1: And of course, befitting of a maze, there is a

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Speaker 1: sort of minotaur in all of this. There is the

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Speaker 1: BANDERSNATCHA is it the Bandersnatch or is it the Demon Packs?

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Speaker 1: It is the Demon Packs, yeah, but I also it

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Speaker 1: is also the Bandersnatch. Like it's design. Its design is

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Speaker 1: roughly based on that illustration of the Bandersnatch we talked about. Okay, cool, alright,

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Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come

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Speaker 1: back we will get into the themes of Bandersnatch and

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Speaker 1: into the nature of of choice and free will. Alright,

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Speaker 1: we're back. So there are a lot of interesting ideas,

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Speaker 1: cool themes, historical tidbits that are thrown together, we'll not

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Speaker 1: throw in together, stitched together, reassembled in band or Snatch. Uh,

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Speaker 1: that that give it its unique feel. Here's just a

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Speaker 1: list of some of the things. First of all, video

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Speaker 1: game design circa four because that is the setting. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it takes place in the eighties with eighties music, eighties

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Speaker 1: fashion and all that stuff. But they're also programming you know,

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Speaker 1: old school adventure games for like the Commodore sixty four

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Speaker 1: and stuff. Yeah. Another huge part of it aren't choose

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Speaker 1: your own adventure books? Um, which are you know, directly referenced.

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Speaker 1: And then there is a book within band or Snatch

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Speaker 1: titled bander Snatch that is this enormous tone that we're

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Speaker 1: told is essentially a choose your own adventure type scenario. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Do you have any fond memories of choosehown adventure books? Absolutely?

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Speaker 1: I was obsessed with them. I loved them when I

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Speaker 1: was in elementary school, and I would love them despite

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Speaker 1: the fact that you know, you die in most of

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Speaker 1: the endings like it imposes a kind of horrible paranoid

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Speaker 1: fatalism on a shot. I think, where you know, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is a book about exploring the Arctic, but almost

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Speaker 1: no matter what you do, you get eaten by a

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Speaker 1: polar bear or fall beneath the ice and you can't

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Speaker 1: get out. Um. I guess my young brain was drawn

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Speaker 1: to that kind of thing though, you know, I had

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Speaker 1: that like morbid obsession with peril and danger and death

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Speaker 1: and all that. But also I'm curious what is so

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Speaker 1: appealing about the choose your own adventure books, Because one

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Speaker 1: thing we should say is that this is not the

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Speaker 1: first interactive film Bandersnatch, and previous attempts at interactive films

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Speaker 1: have generally been very unpopular. I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: times people don't actually enjoy the experience of choosing the

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Speaker 1: outcome of a film, and I think there are reasons

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Speaker 1: for that. I mean, for one thing, it's just like

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Speaker 1: hard to make a story where like multiple, like so

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Speaker 1: many different options of how the story could go would

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Speaker 1: all be equally satisfying. I mean, there's a reason that

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Speaker 1: an author writes a story a certain way, like, for

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Speaker 1: for instance, one film that we've talked about on the

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Speaker 1: show before William Assole's Mr. Sardonicus from nineteen sixty one

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Speaker 1: was presented. Was marketed as having an interactive element in

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Speaker 1: that at the end of this you got to choose

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Speaker 1: the fate for the villain. Would it be, you know,

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Speaker 1: justice or mercy? And the thing is, audiences never chose

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Speaker 1: mercy for this horrible villain. Of course, they always chose justice,

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Speaker 1: and so there were even accusations that they never even

424
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: shot the alternate version, like there was the the the

425
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: idea that it was interactive was just you know, the

426
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 1: pitch was just the marketing, but there was no actual

427
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 1: interactive element. William Castle, I think, claimed otherwise, saying yes

428
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 1: they did shoot the sequence. I do not know personally

429
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: if if that's true or not, if if this footage

430
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: has ever materialized, But what I did did read was

431
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 1: that generally people point to nineteen sixty seven's uh Keno

432
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 1: Automat as the first truly interactive film, but even that,

433
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: I think there are only like four choices that could

434
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: be made, and this ELM was also I think largely comedic. Okay, well,

435
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,160
Speaker 1: I mean I would say that there are many reasons

436
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 1: why this format doesn't always work for some reason, it

437
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 1: worked for me as a kid with the Choose your

438
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 1: Own Adventure books. I loved those. But I mean, one

439
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 1: problem I think is that it's hard to make all

440
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: the narrative branches as good as each other. But another

441
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,360
Speaker 1: one is just that like, for instance, when you finish it,

442
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 1: there's not I don't think there was ever a sense

443
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: where I'm like, Okay, that's the ending I got. No,

444
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,400
Speaker 1: I want the good ending all. I want the robust

445
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 1: ending you go back and do it again. It's more

446
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: like a video game, so I don't want the ending

447
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,880
Speaker 1: where I randomly die. Like the story of Super Mario

448
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,919
Speaker 1: is not that he's killed by a mutant turtle, uh

449
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 1: three minutes into the game, you know, I mean, that's

450
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 1: that's not an epic tale. So in some ways, I

451
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 1: think the Choose your Own Adventure books are sometimes better

452
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: thought of as like a puzzle to solve than as

453
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: like a narrative to be experienced. And another big difference

454
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 1: I will say is that one of the great pleasures

455
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,439
Speaker 1: of watching a movie or reading a book, or you know,

456
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: engaging in any kind of narrative with an author, storyteller,

457
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 1: and you as the passive audience is a surrendering of

458
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: responsibility for what is about to happen in your own mind.

459
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,719
Speaker 1: You you give up that responsibility and suddenly you know

460
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: when when bad things continue to happen in the story,

461
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 1: when characters make disastrous decisions that unfold and increase the

462
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,360
Speaker 1: peril and heighten the drama, you're not responsible for what's happening.

463
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 1: You're just witnessing it. And that you know that witnessing

464
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 1: is very fun. Is peeking through a hole in the

465
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: wall and what's happening to somebody else When they make

466
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 1: you make decisions, it introduces this horrible tension between what

467
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: you want to see versus what you think you should do.

468
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: You know, like, uh that, I think there's this tension whenever.

469
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: A great example would be in Bandersnatch, I often felt,

470
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: in a bizarre way morally compelled to make the tame

471
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: or safer options, where at the same time I felt

472
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: more interested in seeing the more kind of like dangerous

473
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: disastrous options play out. Yeah, this was This was definitely

474
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: my experience with my first viewing a band or Snatches

475
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: that you know, when the when the decisions start start

476
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 1: hitting you, like later on they become like this horrible

477
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: choice or this horrible choice and becomes harder to play

478
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: this game. But earlier on, there are moments where you're like,

479
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: are you going to do the sensible thing or the

480
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: more rebellious thing, or even the more dangerous thing. And

481
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: I found myself choosing the safer thing. Like like minor

482
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 1: spoiler here, but he is he's offered the choice between

483
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: producing his dream game with this company at their offices,

484
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 1: with their support, or or saying no to them. And

485
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: so like the responsible part of me is like, yes,

486
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: say yes to the this is employment, this is gonna

487
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 1: be good for you. Like, clearly you're you're stuck in

488
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: a weird situation at home. You need to get out

489
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 1: of the house, protagonists and uh, and so that's the

490
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: way I went. But it's ultimately not the best choice,

491
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 1: and it kind of dead ends if you take that choice. Yeah,

492
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: it almost kind of gives you a little slap on

493
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: the wrist for making that choice, you know. So he

494
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: So I don't want to spoil anything, but yeah, there's

495
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: a there's like a slight shaming of the viewer for

496
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,959
Speaker 1: choosing the safe option. And this is very early on,

497
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: so we're not really spoiling anything. Think nature. But but yeah,

498
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 1: I would do that a lot. I would say I

499
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 1: would make safe choices, And in fact it ultimately ended

500
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 1: up reminding me a little bit of the Space and

501
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: Guild and Dune, who of course used the spice to

502
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: see into the future to figure out how to navigate

503
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: the dangers of space, which is helpful if you're navigating

504
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: the dangers of space. But in in life and in

505
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: politics and all these other choices, it's this road to

506
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: stagnation for the Space and Guild because they always make

507
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: the safe choice. And when we look at the narratives

508
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: that we love generally, they're not about people making the

509
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: safe choice after safe choice after safe choice. They're about

510
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: people flying off the handles or making huge mistakes and

511
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 1: having to deal with those. And so there is I

512
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 1: think there's a learning curve there with Under Snatch, and

513
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 1: and so my second viewing of it, I tried to

514
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: do more of that. I tried to make choices that

515
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: I felt were interesting or um or more dramatic, and

516
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: that seemed to work really well, and I feel like

517
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: the product rewards you for doing that. Yeah, So I

518
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,679
Speaker 1: think that tension is definitely there with the movies, and

519
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 1: I wonder if it's more the case in a movie

520
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: than in a book, just because a movie is more

521
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: sensorly visceral. The fact that you know that it's actually

522
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: visually presented to you in video and audio makes it

523
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: harder to just pursue, you know, your sort of lust

524
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: for drama and and and weirdness and whatever it is

525
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: you want to see. Um as opposed to making the

526
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: safer choices. I don't recall feeling compelled to make the

527
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,959
Speaker 1: safer choice the same way with Choose your Own Adventure books,

528
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 1: and that that could just be because of like the

529
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: lower sensory salience of of books compared to movies. I

530
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: don't know, Yeah maybe so um. I finally finally remember

531
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: the Choose Your Adventure books as well, in part because

532
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: they have them at the library and I could check

533
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: them out. Um. But also another series that I finally remember,

534
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: the Lone Wolf series. Were you familiar with these? So

535
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: these there, there's a series of these. The first one

536
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: was by Joe Deaver and Gary Chalk, And this is,

537
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: uh there like a Choose your Own Adventure series very

538
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: much fantasy Dungeon and dragon style high fantasy, but there's

539
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: more of a role playing element to it. So, for instance,

540
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: when you open the book, it has not only a

541
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: map of the adventuring world you're taking a part of,

542
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: but there's also an action chart and a combat record

543
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: because you're gonna end up having to pencil in your

544
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: stats as you go through the story, picking spells and

545
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: so forth. It's more like a one player dn D module. Yeah, exactly,

546
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: It's like imagine, it's like a a Choose your Own

547
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: Adventure book and a one player dn D module come

548
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: together into this one little tone. So I finally remember

549
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: are those And I might be misremembering here, but I

550
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: think I did get turned off later on when I

551
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: reached an artificial dead end in one of them, like

552
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: there was something broken and I couldn't go back. Yeah,

553
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: but uh again, I'm my memory may not be perfect

554
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: on that. If you're at all interested in this format,

555
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: I do highly recommend picking up one of these old,

556
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: fabulous use copies of the Loving Wolf series, and I

557
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: think they've republished them again with new artwork, but I

558
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 1: don't know. The classic artwork is exactly the kind of

559
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: thing I love. The Choose your Adventure book that I

560
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: brought in today for for you to look at Robert

561
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: is called You Are a Shark by Edward Packard. It

562
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: has a kid turning into a shark. He's like mid

563
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: animorph sequence, oh man, but he also looks like he's

564
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: slipping sliding as he turns into a shark. It's very good.

565
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: That's pretty brilliant to like channeling something that children, especially

566
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: at that time, would have been familiar, would have likely done,

567
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: and giving this fantastic spin on it. But it's The

568
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,719
Speaker 1: story is essentially the fingle doppling scene from Overdrawn at

569
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: the Memory Bank where he just gets transformed into various

570
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: different animals. Do you you know you get turned into

571
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: an elephant or a seagull or of course a shark.

572
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: I think I recall one death where you get turned

573
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: into a squid and you're being chased by something maybe

574
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: it is a shark, and you run out of ink

575
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: to to disguise yourself with and you're doomed. All right. Well, Uh,

576
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: coming back to bandersnatch, we mentioned the video game aspect

577
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: Choose your Own Adventure books. There are another number of

578
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: other elements and homages in there as well. Uh. It

579
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: deals with mental illness, It deals with l s. D uh.

580
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: Their allusions to Philip K. Dick. Uh. There there's mention

581
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,479
Speaker 1: of alternate timelines, and of course it spends a lot

582
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 1: of time contemplating this idea of a free will and

583
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: the potential illusion of choice. Yeah. I think that's the

584
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: main theme of it, is is interrogating the idea of

585
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: what it means to be in control of one's own actions. Yeah.

586
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: And the basic plot is as follows. A young programmer

587
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: named Stephen Butler is obsessed with a choose your own

588
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: adventure style book titled Bander Snatch that was written by

589
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: a the late troubled writer Jerome F. Davies, and he

590
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: really wants to turn this into a computer adventure game,

591
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: and he's begun work on it on his own. So

592
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: he ends up falling in with this video game company

593
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: called Tucker Soft and meets its lead creative, uh, this

594
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: programmer named Colin Rittman. And from there it departs through

595
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: these varying winding paths, reality warping, through madness and sometimes horror. Uh.

596
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: And through all of it there's also this side of

597
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: this feeling that there is a minotaur like monster pursuing you,

598
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: pursuing our our protagonist as well. And this is the Bandersnatch,

599
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: but more specifically, it is titled Packs. Its name is Packs,

600
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: and it is We're told it's the Thief of Destiny. Yeah,

601
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: there's a great moment where the game appears to give

602
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: you an option to either deny worshiping packs or submit

603
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: to worshiping packs. Oh yes, this is the game within

604
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: a game. It made me want to play the game. Yeah,

605
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,719
Speaker 1: it looked really cool. So something that made Bandersnatch different

606
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: from most of the choose your own adventure books that

607
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 1: I remember reading. I'm I'm sure there are probably exceptions,

608
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: but in the classic books I remember reading, the story

609
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: is written in the second person. The protagonist is an

610
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: unnamed you. You know. You go down the left hall,

611
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: you get eaten by a swarm of Ferrell pigs. You

612
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: go down the right hall, you get turned into a

613
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: bowl of ice cream by magic pirate. You know that you.

614
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: You explore all the different dooms on offer to you,

615
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: but it's you. Yeah. Likewise, in the Lone Wolf books,

616
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: as I recall you, you kind of make choices regarding

617
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: how this characters put together. You have a fair amount

618
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: of control. It is your character, but Bandersnatch challenges this

619
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: formula a little bit. By making the protagonist a third

620
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: person character with a name and pre existing individualized circumstances.

621
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: You've got Stefan right. But then this is where it's

622
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 1: starts getting even weirder. So not only is it this

623
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: definite third person character with their own characteristics and not

624
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: just a second person protagonist. There are moments where the

625
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: options are you choose, not what Stephen does. That's how

626
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: it mostly is. You know what does Stefon pick? You

627
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 1: know what? What? What does he listened to? What does

628
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: he answer to somebody who poses a question to him?

629
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: It then changes and gives you the option to dictate

630
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: what happens to him from the outside. The specific example

631
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: I recall is what messages he believes he is receiving

632
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: on his computer screen. Now, of course, if you go

633
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: with the most straightforward interpretation of the story, which is

634
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: that Stephan is experiencing symptoms of psychosis in a way,

635
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 1: you're still dictating the activity of his brain, but activities

636
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: of his brain that he as a character does not

637
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: perceive as coming from himself, their hallucinations that he believes

638
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: to be coming from the outside. And you know, this

639
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,720
Speaker 1: makes me wonder about the framing of how we should

640
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 1: think about hallucinations that are generated internally by the brain

641
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 1: but perceived to come from an external source. Are those

642
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: hallucinations best understood as you or not? Um? Are Are

643
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: there processes within your own brain that are, in some

644
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 1: legitimate sense not you, even though they are your brain,

645
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: they're not anybody else. Yeah, it's it's not really the

646
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: voice of God. It is the it is. It is

647
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: something coming from inside your brain that you are perhaps

648
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: imagining or or interpreting as the voice of God. But

649
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: is you more synonymous with your whole brain and everything

650
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 1: it does, or is you more synonymous with the part

651
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 1: of your brain that you identify as yourself. That's going

652
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: to be very key to some interpretations of the basic

653
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: theme explored in Bandersnatch right, And they do explore this

654
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: theme amazingly well. I felt the second time I watched it,

655
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,320
Speaker 1: I found all these additional layers. Um. You know again,

656
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm tempted to make the best choices for

657
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: a protagonist, or at least there's still that inclination that

658
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: I want to do that. And at one point there's

659
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: this song playing with the lyrics doing what's best for

660
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: Nigel and it's all and uh stc or I don't know,

661
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: I think so. Yes, I was not familiar with that

662
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 1: group or that this song before, but yeah, it's playing.

663
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,800
Speaker 1: And the whole scene is about like how his father

664
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: is making choices for him, or other times it's you know,

665
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,800
Speaker 1: it's the therapies therapist that is giving him advice about

666
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: how to how to make choices in his life. And

667
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: so you have all these forces that that help him

668
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: make his choices or make choices for him. And then

669
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 1: that's also what we are doing as we interact with

670
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: the product. Well, yes, and in a weird way, it

671
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 1: kind of brings you back around to to this question

672
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: of wait a minute, is he is he a third

673
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: person narrator or are you supposed to identify as him?

674
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: So when these choices are are in some cases things

675
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: coming to him apparently from the outside, you know, they

676
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 1: might be messages he's receiving from some kind of otherworldly

677
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:02,240
Speaker 1: source or hallucinations. Um, are you still making choices for

678
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 1: him or not? Uh? And it leads back into this

679
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: theme of whether or not you are really in control

680
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: of your own actions and what does it mean to

681
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: be in control of your own actions. Uh, and this

682
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: we come to the subject of free will, which is

683
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: a huge topic that we return to time and time

684
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 1: again on stuff to blow your mind. And we're not

685
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: going to try to encapsulate everything about that here. Uh.

686
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: You know, we've talked about in the past, we're talking

687
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: about it today, We're going to talk about it in

688
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: the future. But it suffice to say philosophies, very scientific

689
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: interpretations vary, and then it drags in additional drags in

690
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 1: just about everything about the human condition, right, I mean,

691
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: moral responsibility, theological quandaries, etcetera. Yeah, I mean it's a

692
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 1: problem that it is such a huge topic and that

693
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: almost all discussions about free will that I encounter in

694
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: the wild are an absolute mess. And this isn't my

695
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: personal take. I notice, do you ever notice conversations about

696
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: free will almost never seemed to clarify anything. They almost

697
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: never seemed to provide any more focus or clarity than

698
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: you had to begin with. Yeah, Like sometimes it's it's

699
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: at times it feels like having a conversation with somebody

700
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,959
Speaker 1: in a in a swimming pool about whether water is wet,

701
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: because it does get down to like, like it seems

702
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 1: wet to me. I am in it. It seems like

703
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: free will to me because I am immersed in it,

704
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 1: and it's difficult for me to remove myself from the

705
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,760
Speaker 1: experience that I'm having and and all of and everything

706
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: in my life that supports everything in the culture at large,

707
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 1: that supports the idea that I am making choices and

708
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: form choices about my life. I mean, I feel like

709
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 1: some dilemmas having to do with free will or or

710
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 1: like they force you to choose between two options that

711
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 1: are both tautologies or both absurdities. And and any time

712
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: you encounter a problem like that, I think there's a

713
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: pretty good chance that the underlying disease caused that is

714
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,879
Speaker 1: poorly defined terms, right, yeah, and yeah, to your point,

715
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 1: the extreme versions of this are are to tend to

716
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: come off as kind of luney, like if someone is

717
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 1: just like I am a completely free moving soul, like no,

718
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: you're not dummy. Uh. You know, It's like when we

719
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 1: discussed in the in the Thankfulness episode that we put out,

720
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 1: you know, like everybody's life is shaped by these other factors,

721
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 1: these other individuals in their life to some extent, and

722
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: I feel like to argue against that is just lunacy.

723
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:28,839
Speaker 1: On the other hand, if someone is saying I am

724
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: a just a pure automaton, I mean there, you can

725
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: back that argument up with some very intriguing arguments, and

726
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 1: we'll get into some of those. But at the end

727
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,280
Speaker 1: of the day, does that match up with your experience

728
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: of reality? I totally agree, But I think even talking

729
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: about it at that level, that's already like a level up,

730
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 1: like having accepted some terms as unproblematic more than I

731
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 1: think they should be. So like anyway, I mean, I

732
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 1: think the main problem with free will is people aren't

733
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 1: being clear what they're talking about before they start talking.

734
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 1: And I'm totally guilty of this as well. Uh. This

735
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: is usually the case when it comes to free will,

736
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: and this happens even when we're not aware that we're

737
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: being unclear. So we can't do it full justice. In

738
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 1: the short segment, I think we will try to do

739
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,479
Speaker 1: better than an absolute mess. Uh. So, so to try

740
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,959
Speaker 1: to understand what our terms actually mean. What is free will?

741
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: A common understanding is I am in control of my

742
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: own actions, and I think most of the time for

743
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: most people this feels true. Uh, though curiously, of course,

744
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: not all of the time, and not for all people.

745
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: We can come back to that, But I would argue

746
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: that it only feels true in a general way, and

747
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: it gets stickier and THORNI or the more you try

748
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,919
Speaker 1: to think about it, and the more precisely you try

749
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: to deform define those terms. So, if I'm in control

750
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 1: of my own actions, who is I? Uh? We brought

751
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: this up a minute ago. Is I my whole brain? Uh?

752
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: And also I think there's a good case to be

753
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: made that other parts of your body gets some kind

754
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 1: of vote in your decision? May king? So is it

755
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: my whole body? Is it everything with my genome? Even then,

756
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: I would say your microbiota sort of gets a vote.

757
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: I think that there are questions about what the eye is.

758
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: But then also what counts as control? If I am

759
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: in control of my own actions, does it mean that

760
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: that I make my decisions with no outside influences? I mean,

761
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 1: that's obviously not true, as you were alluding to a

762
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 1: minute ago. But once you accept that outside factors have

763
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: some influence over whatever it is you're talking about controlling,

764
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: what's to stop you from assuming that they have total influence?

765
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 1: I mean, what part of your decision making is not

766
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 1: influenced by pre existing factors like your memory and your

767
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: physical circumstances and so forth, like what part of you

768
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 1: can you identify that stands outside of the world. And

769
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: then from the other end, paradoxically, if you were to

770
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,399
Speaker 1: suddenly act in a way that made no sense given

771
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 1: your own history and memory and all of the inputs

772
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 1: coming in that you think of as influences on you,

773
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,280
Speaker 1: wouldn't that action actually feel less like something that comes

774
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 1: genuinely from you, whatever you are. Wouldn't by this metric,

775
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: the most objectively free action seem like something coming from

776
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 1: the outside. You mean, like if you go to go

777
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,399
Speaker 1: to a restaurant where there's, say there's a drink menu,

778
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: and you always tend to order something that is made

779
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 1: with a base of say rum or bourbon or whiskey,

780
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: and instead you throw caution to the wind one day

781
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: and you get a mess coal or a vodka drink.

782
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: Does that actually make you feel more free or does

783
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: it seem like something you know, something got into you.

784
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: Where does that phrase come from? I don't know. When

785
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 1: I do things like that, I think it does make

786
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: me feel more free, because I'm like, no, I'm not

787
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 1: going to be the same person I've been every time.

788
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,919
Speaker 1: I'm gonna try a different direction, you know I'm going

789
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: to I'm going to get a different type of drink,

790
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna try a different type of food, I'm gonna

791
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: walk a different way to the train station, etcetera. Well,

792
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: I mean, I would say that this just highlights that

793
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 1: neither branch either acting in character where your character has

794
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: been shaped by everything that ever happened to you, nor

795
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 1: by acting out of character where you know something got

796
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 1: into you. Neither way really cites the origin of decisions

797
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: or the origin of actions in something that's out without

798
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,479
Speaker 1: outside influence. So a lot of the arguments about whether

799
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 1: we have free will actually seem to me to reduce

800
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,720
Speaker 1: to the question of whether we feel we have free will.

801
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 1: But what would it actually mean to settle the question

802
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 1: of whether we are like physically objectively free? Uh So,

803
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 1: maybe we should look at like a more thought out

804
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 1: dictionary definition. So one that I found is quote the

805
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:43,320
Speaker 1: power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate

806
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: or fate. Now that that brings me back to the

807
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: demon packs the thief of Destiny, I find myself. I

808
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 1: found myself with the second viewing of band or Snatch,

809
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: returning to that title and trying to figure out exactly

810
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: what it means. Because destiny, on one hand means like

811
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: the you're predestined, right, There is a destiny in place

812
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: for you, and you perhaps don't have any real control.

813
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:07,879
Speaker 1: It is the thing that the gods have laid out

814
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: for you. That's like one way of looking at But

815
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: another way of looking at destiny is that destiny is

816
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: the thing you aspire to. Like you choose your own destiny,

817
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: you choose your own adventure. Right. Uh So, which which

818
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 1: of the two is the demon pack stealing from you?

819
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 1: Is he stealing from you the power to make your

820
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 1: own decisions? Or is he stealing from you a predestined path?

821
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,280
Speaker 1: Is he liberating you from this from the same tired

822
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 1: walk to the train station and the same tired choices

823
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 1: on the menu? Well, the funny thing about to choose

824
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 1: your own adventure is that even though you are making

825
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: the choices on each page about which page to turn

826
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: to next, somebody else wrote the whole thing. That's true,

827
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: and I mean to a certain extent, like you can

828
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: you can apply that to life, like as rebellious as

829
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: you might seem, ordering something else on the menu that

830
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: you normally don't get it's still on the menu. And

831
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 1: other things in life are like that too, Like you were,

832
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 1: largely you are constrained by the possibilities of your culture,

833
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 1: of your station in life, of you know, political realities, etcetera.

834
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 1: But even then, is the unpredictability of a behavior at

835
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: all evidence of your control or your personal volition of

836
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: that behavior. I don't know. I mean that those things

837
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: seem perhaps unrelated to me. Actually, yeah, I mean you

838
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: can also be predictably unpredictable. Yeah, um. But anyway, coming

839
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 1: back to this definition, the one that's you know, acting

840
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 1: without constraint of necessity or fate. So I think it

841
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: can be hard to pin this down to a concrete claim,

842
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,320
Speaker 1: but I think what it comes closest to is saying

843
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 1: that for any given action or moment in my life history,

844
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: anything I do or think or say, given the exact

845
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 1: same inputs, I could have produced different output than I

846
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 1: actually did. Um. And this this would be I think,

847
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 1: some way of making free will a kind of like

848
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: a physical proposition. Right, If exactly the same inputs went

849
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 1: into you, everything was exactly the same, you could have

850
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: done something different than what you did. Unfortunately, I think

851
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,919
Speaker 1: this is just a completely untestable assumption. You know, given

852
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: the complexity of brains, you can never have all of

853
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: exactly the same inputs that somebody had at a given moment,

854
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 1: So you can't experiment on this to find out what's true.

855
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 1: That we certainly love ruminating on this in our fiction.

856
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: Like any kind of time travel film, any kind of

857
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 1: Groundhog Day scenario is exploring this subject. Yeah. Though, even

858
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,359
Speaker 1: with most of those time travel things where people want

859
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: to go back and relive it, what they actually are

860
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 1: imagining is they want to go back and relive a

861
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 1: moment with the wisdom and knowledge that they have now

862
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 1: that they didn't have them. So it would be funny

863
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,919
Speaker 1: to just like replay the same instance over and over

864
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: again with exactly the same physics involved and see if

865
00:46:55,920 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 1: anything different happens, without having any new knowledge or whatever. Um.

866
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: But even then, I mean imagine maybe you could do

867
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,280
Speaker 1: that somehow, you know, you could just watch the same

868
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 1: period of time play out over and over again and

869
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: see if anything different happens. Even if it were true

870
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 1: that you could have produced different outputs given the exact

871
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,439
Speaker 1: same inputs, would this really mean you were free? Would

872
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 1: this be what people mean when they see free will,

873
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: like they're in control of their own actions. You know,

874
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 1: imagine there's some random dice rolling machine inside your head,

875
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 1: or a ghost or a spirit in your brain which

876
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 1: pushes you in different directions, even if every single iota

877
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: of input is the same. Is that actually freedom? That

878
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: just sounds like a different kind of impetus or control.

879
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 1: That's interesting. You bring up randomization via some sort of

880
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 1: technology like dice or casting of bones, because we've we've

881
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 1: discussed that in the past on the show. How that

882
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 1: is sometimes brought up as being like that that like,

883
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:57,320
Speaker 1: that's the purpose of these early divination um uh technologies,

884
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 1: techniques a way to randomize chill and to sometimes force

885
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 1: us towards a decision that we otherwise otherwise wouldn't make,

886
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,919
Speaker 1: like in a way to free us from these predestined

887
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 1: paths that are before us, or at least, you know,

888
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,919
Speaker 1: lean us over towards a different path that we would

889
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,839
Speaker 1: that is available but we normally wouldn't go for. Well,

890
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 1: it's funny, I mean either way you go there, So yeah,

891
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 1: say you're doing the each ing or throwing bones, does

892
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 1: either or not doing that either way is one making

893
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 1: you more The author of your own destiny than another.

894
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I mean, they have differences in outcomes,

895
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,359
Speaker 1: But does that actually change what people mean when they

896
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 1: say when they say free will? I don't know. I mean,

897
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:41,839
Speaker 1: even if you randomize your choices, you are the one

898
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: that will then enact that choice, Like you're still the

899
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 1: actor in your narrative and the randomization is still an

900
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 1: input on you. Um So I don't know. So uh,

901
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,879
Speaker 1: anyway to to sort of sum it all up, I've

902
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: got a theory here, and it is that I think

903
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 1: what a lot of us are actually circling around when

904
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 1: we're trying to figure out how to articulate our concept

905
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 1: of free will is this claim. And the claim is

906
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: our consciousness dictates our choices of how we act, or

907
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,839
Speaker 1: in other words, we're conscious of the process by which

908
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 1: our choices are made or by which our actions are generated.

909
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: Right that that when we act, we are able to

910
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,839
Speaker 1: consciously be a part of the impetus to act, or

911
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:30,839
Speaker 1: consciously cause the impetus to act. And I think this

912
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 1: one is actually testable, and we can come back to

913
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: that in a minute. So this is, of course, this

914
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 1: is one of the big riddles of the human experience.

915
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: And so people have been thinking about this and uh,

916
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: you know, essentially banging their head against the wall about this. Uh,

917
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: for the thousands of years. The philosophers Democratus and Lucippus

918
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: saw the universe as wholly governed by natural laws and

919
00:49:55,560 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 1: composed of you know, essentially indivisible atoms. They took the

920
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,760
Speaker 1: determinus view of life of one propelled down a flowing

921
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 1: stream of events. Aristotle, on the other hand, is a

922
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 1: great example of someone who stressed the individual's responsibility for

923
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: their actions. The indeterminates view of life is a boat

924
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 1: propelling itself through a body of water. So, yeah, to

925
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 1: what extent are you just sailing down the river? Uh?

926
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 1: You know, at you know, with with no power on

927
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 1: where you're going, Or are you in a boat that

928
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 1: have in which you have the power to move about

929
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 1: and even move upstream if you need to. On that note,

930
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 1: we're going to take one quick break, but when we

931
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,800
Speaker 1: come back, we will start rolling through some arguments for

932
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 1: and against free will, and then we will return to

933
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 1: band or snatch. Alright, we're back, So let's start with

934
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 1: some arguments against free will, because ultimately I think these

935
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,399
Speaker 1: are these are often easier to discuss Sure, I would

936
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: say the most basic one, right, is just the science

937
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 1: of physics. Right. Physics is very predictable. You can, you know,

938
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:02,240
Speaker 1: given given the inputs of forces and energy and all that,

939
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 1: you can determine what's going to happen as an output

940
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: of that action. And if we assume that applies to everything,

941
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,800
Speaker 1: then why doesn't it apply to us? Right? And it

942
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: basically comes back to a democritus and lucippus, right, the

943
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,839
Speaker 1: the idea that their natural laws and they they are

944
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 1: in place, and we're not above those laws. Sure. Yeah,

945
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,280
Speaker 1: so we're acting on the inputs that come in and

946
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 1: you know that that uh, being being pushed in one

947
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 1: way or another by our life history and our brains

948
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 1: and all that we're going to act a certain way

949
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: as physically reactive objects. Uh. Now, this is an argument,

950
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 1: of course, is the most common argument I think against

951
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 1: free will. But one question, is our free will and

952
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: causal determinism really incompatible? Uh? Not that it settles the issue,

953
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 1: but I think the majority of philosophers who look at

954
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 1: this issue pretty closely actually end up becoming what are

955
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 1: called compatible lists. They they accept causal determinism, they say, yeah,

956
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,280
Speaker 1: you know, we're physical objects being pushed around by physical forces.

957
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 1: But they define free will in some way that it

958
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: is compatible with that that you are a physical object

959
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,320
Speaker 1: being pushed around by physical forces, and the whole history

960
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 1: of your life and everything, and yet somehow free will

961
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:15,400
Speaker 1: still applies to you. This often comes down to like

962
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 1: an understanding or feeling of free will, like I was

963
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: talking about earlier, like even if your actions are causally determined,

964
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 1: somehow you feel like you have agency. And that's what

965
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 1: we mean by free will, right right. Another take on

966
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 1: this that I came across, and this goes back to

967
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 1: something we're talking about earlier, contemporary British analytic philosopher Galen Strawson. Uh.

968
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 1: Their argument is that it's that basically free will is

969
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 1: impossible because we act the way we are right. And

970
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 1: this argument, this argument always makes me think of of

971
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: Yates in the poem No Second Troy. There's that line

972
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 1: what what could she have done? Being what she is? Uh?

973
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:57,279
Speaker 1: And I think about that with myself, like what when

974
00:52:57,320 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: I look back on past choices, what else could I

975
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,360
Speaker 1: have done? And being who I am? You know, without

976
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 1: the you know, some sort of sci fi foresight brought

977
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 1: on by time travel or groundhog day shenanigans, like I

978
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 1: am who I am, I am influenced by all these

979
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,919
Speaker 1: these things in my life, and my mind is this,

980
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:19,319
Speaker 1: and then what other choice would that mind have made? Right?

981
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 1: I mean, this is Uh, that's a very good way

982
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 1: of putting it, and it almost like it maybe emphasizes

983
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 1: the fact that free will is a difficult concept because

984
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:32,359
Speaker 1: of some of the baggage brought by the word free. Yeah,

985
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: to act in accordance with your nature and your circumstances

986
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 1: is not necessarily not free, right, Like it was in

987
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 1: my nature too responsibly come to work this morning, and

988
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: so therefore I did. Uh. Could I have decided not

989
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 1: to come into work? Could I have gone to the

990
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,280
Speaker 1: local I don't know, arcade or something or whatever whatever

991
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,319
Speaker 1: whatever one does when one skip squirk, I guess I

992
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,320
Speaker 1: could have. In theory, there's nothing stopping you. Yeah, nothing

993
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: at all, except that is not my nature, and that

994
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 1: is not what I did. Because of my nature. Given

995
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 1: the circumstances of who you are and who you were

996
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: this morning and what was going on this morning, you

997
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 1: didn't do it. And that's all we know is that

998
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 1: you know you acted the way you were at that time,

999
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 1: because that's who you were at that time. Yeah. Now

1000
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 1: that being said, yes, events could have been different. We

1001
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 1: could have had an email from our boss saying that

1002
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: there is going to be like a rock concert in

1003
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:27,720
Speaker 1: the that's in the office today. This would never happen,

1004
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 1: and it might make me think, well, maybe I don't

1005
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 1: want to come into work today, and maybe the easiest

1006
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 1: thing to do would be just to skip. I don't know. Again,

1007
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 1: you can tease your brain all day thinking about what

1008
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 1: elf and how this would have this little detail where

1009
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 1: this other detail would affected your choices, but ultimately we

1010
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:48,880
Speaker 1: only have the version of the path behind us to

1011
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,879
Speaker 1: look back on when we we think about all of this. Now,

1012
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 1: two other basic arguments against free will. This is when

1013
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 1: I think we'll come back to Experimentation has pointed it

1014
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:01,360
Speaker 1: to break downs between what feels like the moment of

1015
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:04,319
Speaker 1: choice and what physically signals a choice being made. Yeah,

1016
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 1: I think this very much complicates the idea that Again,

1017
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 1: what I think people are actually really getting at with

1018
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 1: their idea of free will is that they have conscious

1019
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 1: control over their actions and thoughts. And another one, and

1020
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:18,919
Speaker 1: this is again we've been touching on this the whole

1021
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:23,880
Speaker 1: episode but myriad causal influences at least guide our decisions,

1022
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 1: if not make them for us hard to deny. All right,

1023
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 1: So here are some some arguments for free will. The

1024
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:33,799
Speaker 1: big one, of course, is that subjectively, we tend to

1025
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 1: feel like we have rational, reflective control over our choices

1026
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,239
Speaker 1: and actions. Sure, I mean, I can decide to do

1027
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 1: anything that occurs to me to do right now. You know,

1028
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:45,840
Speaker 1: I could throw my computer across the room if I

1029
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 1: really wanted to. Yeah, And men and the idea that

1030
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:51,799
Speaker 1: the way that there are brains enable us to simulate

1031
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:54,919
Speaker 1: these possibilities really, I think allows us to lean into

1032
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 1: that interpretation because it's like the choose your own adventure book.

1033
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 1: The other choice is are in there, and if we

1034
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 1: want to, we can cheat, and we can check one

1035
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 1: out and then back up. And in a way, you know,

1036
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 1: we can't do that in real life except through our

1037
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 1: ability to simulate possible futures. And and of course that

1038
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:15,760
Speaker 1: has an important evolutionary role. It has put an important

1039
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: role for our survival. We can think about the different

1040
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:21,319
Speaker 1: ways we might try to, say, steal a piece of

1041
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 1: meat from a hungry lion and escape with food and

1042
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 1: our lives and then choose the best course of action. Um,

1043
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 1: this is this is important, but it can also lean

1044
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 1: into these interpretations that you know that certainly, uh, you know,

1045
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 1: I have more choice than I actually have, or even

1046
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 1: ultimately an idea that, of course it's explored in Bandersnatch,

1047
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 1: the idea that these other alternate choices are kind of

1048
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:48,400
Speaker 1: alternate timelines, that they're out there, like I saw it

1049
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:51,439
Speaker 1: in my head to a certain extent, that reality where

1050
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 1: I tried to take more meat than was feasible and

1051
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 1: was killed by the lion in a way that exists

1052
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:59,840
Speaker 1: because I just saw it. Unfortunately, I would say about

1053
00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 1: this argument, it does often feel that way that you know,

1054
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 1: like I could have done anything a minute ago, but

1055
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 1: you didn't. You did what you did. So again this

1056
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 1: comes back to the untestability of this one, like there's

1057
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 1: just never any way to prove that you could have

1058
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 1: done differently than you did in the moment. Like if

1059
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 1: you ever had a like a close call where say

1060
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 1: you're almost in a wreck or you almost do something

1061
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 1: that could have conceivably gotten you killed. Um, and then

1062
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 1: you have that moment of reflection granted on one level,

1063
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 1: like it it may get your just just bodily. You're excited,

1064
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 1: right because this has happened and your body's on high alert.

1065
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, part of it is sort

1066
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 1: of realizing your close proximity to this other possibility, like

1067
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 1: I was just some minor choice, some minor bit of

1068
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 1: input data away from something more catastrophic. Yes, it makes

1069
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 1: you suddenly you come face to face with how dependent

1070
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 1: you are on moment to moment circumstances and awareness. Uh.

1071
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 1: Though I would say a lot of times when I

1072
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 1: get that like that, like you know, catch your breath

1073
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 1: about what could have happened. It wasn't because I narrowly

1074
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 1: avoided something really bad happening. It's because I suddenly, out

1075
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 1: of nowhere, imagined something really bad happening. Like ever, you're

1076
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 1: going down a flight of stairs and it's going fine,

1077
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 1: but you just imagine, oh I could fall and hit

1078
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 1: my teeth on that thing, and oh yeah, oh yeah,

1079
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 1: I do that. This is of course, this is one

1080
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 1: of my pitfalls, is to almost constantly, um essentially fantasize

1081
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 1: about bad things that could happen. Uh. And I think

1082
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:33,960
Speaker 1: a lot of us do that, you know, and part

1083
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 1: of that is your your mind is exploring possibilities of

1084
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:41,439
Speaker 1: what is happening or could happen or has happened, And

1085
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 1: but in doing that we can lean into the negative

1086
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 1: possibilities too much, and then our lives become this, you know, abysmal.

1087
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 1: Choose your own adventure book of most of mostly terrible ends,

1088
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 1: even though the path that you were actually on may

1089
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 1: not be leading to any of them. Um It's it

1090
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:00,479
Speaker 1: seems like the curse of all this confused sh about

1091
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 1: whether we have free will or not and what that

1092
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 1: actually means could just be rooted in the fact that

1093
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 1: we can consider hypothetical alternative scenarios. The fact that we're

1094
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 1: able to imagine counter factuals is what makes is what

1095
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 1: gives rise to this whole argument. Uh So, another thing

1096
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 1: I have on the list here, and this basically is

1097
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:23,439
Speaker 1: just an extrapolation of everything we're talking about right now,

1098
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:28,480
Speaker 1: is Philosophers Stephen Cave and also Bruce Waller have both

1099
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 1: argued that animals evolved with the capabilities we tend to

1100
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 1: associate with free will in order to survive, such as

1101
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 1: opinion generation, deliberation, will, power to stick to a choice,

1102
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 1: and the large human brain has all of this in spades.

1103
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 1: Cave argues that the level of free will UH that

1104
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 1: we have may actually vary from individual to individual, and

1105
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:52,200
Speaker 1: he argues that we could potentially even put together a

1106
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 1: method of measuring one's freedom quotient or f Q in

1107
00:59:56,240 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 1: the same way that we well roughly measure ones intelligent creativity,

1108
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 1: and other psychological factors. I do think that's possible, but

1109
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:06,120
Speaker 1: I also think that that would be subject to a

1110
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 1: lot of debate about exactly what it is you're measuring.

1111
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:11,480
Speaker 1: There as a lot of these actual uh, you know,

1112
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 1: human or animal quotients are I mean, when when you

1113
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:17,680
Speaker 1: measure human intelligence, there's debate about what exactly are you

1114
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 1: measuring uh, And I think the same thing would be

1115
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 1: true of freedom, subject to all of these you know,

1116
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 1: crazy caveats we've been talking about so far. What what

1117
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:28,280
Speaker 1: what do you mean when you say freedom? Yeah. Another

1118
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 1: take on this that I had read in the past

1119
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 1: was something that neuroscientists David Eaglemanu called the principle of

1120
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 1: sufficient automatism. And the idea here is that the more

1121
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 1: that we map the human genome and study the brains

1122
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 1: many subconscious machinations, the more it becomes clear that a

1123
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 1: free will exist. It's only a factor hitching a ride

1124
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 1: on top of enormous automated machinery. Um So again it

1125
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 1: comes there's there's plenty of ground in between automaton and

1126
01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:00,120
Speaker 1: self moving soul where you can you can so of

1127
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 1: move the slider towards one direction or the other and

1128
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:07,000
Speaker 1: still have something that we can at least refer to

1129
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:09,280
Speaker 1: as free will. But it might only be a very

1130
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 1: very little bit of something. Yeah, it might, And it's

1131
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:13,800
Speaker 1: it's interesting to sort of do that, to do a

1132
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:16,240
Speaker 1: little self reflection and think about that, Like, yes, I

1133
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 1: had choice in the Senate situation, but really, how much

1134
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:22,920
Speaker 1: choice was there? Uh? Yeah? And I think for me,

1135
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 1: at least, some of the definition problems would still remain,

1136
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 1: Like I'm not sure that even then that that's clarifying

1137
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 1: what the concept of freedom means there. Um So we

1138
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 1: can't test whether it's possible for a person to produce

1139
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 1: different outputs given the exact same inputs. That just seems

1140
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 1: beyond the bounds of empiricism. You could believe that if

1141
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 1: you want, but I don't think there's any evidence for it.

1142
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 1: But this might not be what we really mean by

1143
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:52,240
Speaker 1: free will. Maybe, as I mentioned earlier, we what we

1144
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:55,280
Speaker 1: mean by free will is that we are conscious of

1145
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 1: the process by which we make decisions or generate actions.

1146
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:02,280
Speaker 1: And I think the pyirical research is pretty clear that

1147
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:05,600
Speaker 1: this is not true, at least not in many cases.

1148
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 1: Um So, just to look at a few studies undercutting

1149
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 1: traditional notions that our consciousness dictates our decisions or that

1150
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:15,880
Speaker 1: we're consciously aware of how are all our decisions are reached?

1151
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 1: Um So, first of all, I want to look at

1152
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 1: one by a soon brass Hines and Haines, published in

1153
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:26,640
Speaker 1: Nature Neuroscience in two thousand eight, called unconscious determinants of

1154
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 1: free decisions in the human brain. In this study, the

1155
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:33,560
Speaker 1: authors found that they could use brain scanning to detect

1156
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 1: a person's choice between two options before the person believed

1157
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: that they had made a choice. So you've got a

1158
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:44,840
Speaker 1: very simple setup. You're supposed to freely choose between pressing

1159
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:47,320
Speaker 1: two buttons. You've got a left button pressed with your

1160
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:49,760
Speaker 1: left hand. You've got a right button pressed with your

1161
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 1: right hand. Uh. The two different hands were used because

1162
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:54,760
Speaker 1: this made it easier to see which hand was about

1163
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:58,040
Speaker 1: to be engaged through motor control and brain imaging. And

1164
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:00,960
Speaker 1: so you take your time, you decide what which button

1165
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:03,720
Speaker 1: you want to press, and then you note which letter

1166
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:06,600
Speaker 1: in a timed sequence is displayed on a screen in

1167
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 1: front of you. At the moment you believe you've made

1168
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:12,880
Speaker 1: your decision about which button to push, and in some cases,

1169
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 1: the researchers could detect brain activity of the prefrontal and

1170
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 1: prietal cortex indicating which choice a person was going to

1171
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 1: make up to seven to ten seconds before the person

1172
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:28,600
Speaker 1: believed they had made their choice. So this study indicates

1173
01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 1: that at least in some cases, at the moment you

1174
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 1: believe that you have consciously made a choice to do something,

1175
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:39,040
Speaker 1: machines can look at your brain and showed that the

1176
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:42,240
Speaker 1: brain has made a choice before you believe you have

1177
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 1: made a choice and predict with better than chance accuracy

1178
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 1: what that choice is. This is this is a study

1179
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:51,280
Speaker 1: that really intrigued me. I remember when it came out

1180
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 1: because it's basically this idea where I think that I'm

1181
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:57,480
Speaker 1: the lightning, but perhaps I am the thunder, or at

1182
01:03:57,520 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 1: least my experience is that of the thunder. But then

1183
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 1: the the other question is, well, does that mean I'm

1184
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:05,160
Speaker 1: not the lightning? Am I not? Both? And maybe just

1185
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:08,480
Speaker 1: I'm like I have a thunder level awareness of what

1186
01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 1: I am, but there is this lightning that precedes this

1187
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 1: experience of me. Well, I mean, I don't know. I

1188
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:17,120
Speaker 1: mean the the decision is generated by the brain. So

1189
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:19,960
Speaker 1: again you're back to this question of what free will means.

1190
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 1: But if it, if it does have something to do

1191
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:26,240
Speaker 1: with consciously being a participant at the moment that a

1192
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:30,080
Speaker 1: decision is made, that there's pretty good evidence that that's

1193
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:33,560
Speaker 1: not going on. The brain is making decisions before the

1194
01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:36,840
Speaker 1: person thinks I have made a decision. But okay, that

1195
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 1: was two thousand eight. Is there anything since then? Sure.

1196
01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 1: Here's one study with findings along these lines, but applied

1197
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:46,040
Speaker 1: to voluntary mental imagery, who was published just last year

1198
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, and the open access journal Scientific Reports.

1199
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 1: It's by Kenny Robert and Pearson in I said, Scientific

1200
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:57,320
Speaker 1: Reports called Decoding the Contents and Strength of Imagery before

1201
01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:02,480
Speaker 1: Volitional Engagement. Uh, And again this was published in twenty nineteen.

1202
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 1: The short version here is that the researchers exposed people

1203
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 1: to two different images. You've got a red circle with

1204
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:12,200
Speaker 1: horizontal lines and a green circle with vertical lines, and

1205
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:15,720
Speaker 1: then the researchers were able to correlate images of brain

1206
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:18,920
Speaker 1: states with mental representation of the different pictures, so they

1207
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:20,880
Speaker 1: know what it's what it looks like in your brain

1208
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:24,680
Speaker 1: when you're thinking about these two images separately. Uh, They

1209
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:27,800
Speaker 1: could use this brain imaging to predict, again above chance,

1210
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:32,280
Speaker 1: which image subjects would choose to visualize in their head

1211
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:36,360
Speaker 1: before the subjects believed they had made a choice about

1212
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:38,919
Speaker 1: which one to imagine in their head, and they could

1213
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 1: make these predictions at a rate above chance and average

1214
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 1: of eleven seconds before the person's actual choice about which

1215
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:48,480
Speaker 1: one they were going to imagine. So one of the authors,

1216
01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 1: Joel Pearson UH was quoted in a statement I believed

1217
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:54,680
Speaker 1: to medical express quote. We believe that when we are

1218
01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:57,240
Speaker 1: faced with the choice between two or more options of

1219
01:05:57,280 --> 01:06:01,240
Speaker 1: what to think about, non conscious traces of the thoughts

1220
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 1: are there already, a bit like unconscious hallucinations that comes

1221
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:09,520
Speaker 1: back some we talked about recently. Um As the decision

1222
01:06:09,560 --> 01:06:12,600
Speaker 1: of what to think about is made, executive areas of

1223
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:15,920
Speaker 1: the brain choose the thought trace which is stronger. In

1224
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:19,440
Speaker 1: other words, if any pre existing brain activity matches one

1225
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:22,200
Speaker 1: of your choices, then your brain will be more likely

1226
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:24,800
Speaker 1: to pick that option as it gets boosted by the

1227
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:28,600
Speaker 1: pre existing brain activity. This would explain, for example, why

1228
01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 1: thinking over and over about something leads to ever more

1229
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:35,000
Speaker 1: thoughts about it as it occurs in a positive feedback loop.

1230
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 1: And then, to quote from the study abstract, the authors say,

1231
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:41,320
Speaker 1: our results suggest that the contents and strength of mental

1232
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 1: imagery are influenced by sensory like neural representations that emerge

1233
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 1: spontaneously before volition. So there are things going on within

1234
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:53,360
Speaker 1: the brain that we can detect with machinery from the

1235
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:57,600
Speaker 1: outside that suggests what you're going to think about before

1236
01:06:57,680 --> 01:06:59,760
Speaker 1: you think about it. Now. I think we should be

1237
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:03,320
Speaker 1: fair that it's possible. This isn't always the case, but

1238
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:05,640
Speaker 1: there's plenty of evidence that, at least in some of

1239
01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:09,000
Speaker 1: the at least in some cases, when people think they're

1240
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:13,320
Speaker 1: consciously making a choice, the brain in a measurable way

1241
01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:16,400
Speaker 1: has already made a choice that can be detected from

1242
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:19,800
Speaker 1: the outside. The brain has already set one course of

1243
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 1: action in motion before the conscious part of our brain

1244
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 1: is aware that we're going to choose that course. So again,

1245
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:30,720
Speaker 1: kind of a thunder and lightening scenario right now. Of course,

1246
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 1: this stuff we've been talking about is is true of

1247
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:35,360
Speaker 1: typical human brains. Once you start looking at a typical

1248
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:38,840
Speaker 1: neurological situations. You can find all kinds of evidence of

1249
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:42,680
Speaker 1: action without the sensation of conscious awareness or choice. A

1250
01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:44,040
Speaker 1: lot of these are things that have come up on

1251
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:47,400
Speaker 1: the show before, like blind site, the fact that people

1252
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:52,440
Speaker 1: can physically react to visual stimuli while believing consciously that

1253
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:54,720
Speaker 1: they are blind, or that they're blind in some part

1254
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 1: of their visual field, like you can react to, you know,

1255
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:00,480
Speaker 1: raise your hand to catch a ball without leaving that

1256
01:08:00,520 --> 01:08:03,720
Speaker 1: you have seen the ball, or you've got alien limb syndrome,

1257
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:06,920
Speaker 1: where something like a brain lesion can cause part of

1258
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:08,640
Speaker 1: the body to act in a way that you do

1259
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:11,919
Speaker 1: not feel in control of. The hand moves on its own,

1260
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:14,600
Speaker 1: it moves against your will. It picks up the spoon

1261
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:17,960
Speaker 1: when you meant to pick up the fork. Um. Of course,

1262
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:20,920
Speaker 1: the experiences of split brain patients, which we we did

1263
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 1: a deep dive on in January of twenty nineteen. The

1264
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:27,400
Speaker 1: short version is that some patients who undergo a surgery

1265
01:08:27,400 --> 01:08:30,519
Speaker 1: called a corpus callistotomy, in which the main avenue of

1266
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:33,679
Speaker 1: information sharing between the two hemispheres of the brain is severed,

1267
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:37,599
Speaker 1: can seem to show signs of the right hemisphere acting

1268
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 1: and making choices without the conscious awareness or control of

1269
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 1: the left hemisphere, which seems to be the part of

1270
01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:46,920
Speaker 1: the brain that can usually talk, and the last example

1271
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:51,240
Speaker 1: lead to hypotheses like Michael Gazaniga and Joseph Ladue's left

1272
01:08:51,280 --> 01:08:54,600
Speaker 1: brain interpreter model, where they argue that part of what

1273
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:57,639
Speaker 1: the left hemisphere of the brain does is generate an

1274
01:08:57,640 --> 01:09:02,479
Speaker 1: ongoing series of narrative explanations that reconcile past and present

1275
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:05,920
Speaker 1: and give us the sense of that that we understand

1276
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:08,720
Speaker 1: why we do what we do now. Of course, their

1277
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:11,519
Speaker 1: model could be incorrect, but I think it's also possible

1278
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:14,519
Speaker 1: that they're really onto something that the brain seems to

1279
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:18,240
Speaker 1: have a major function of trying to convince itself that

1280
01:09:18,400 --> 01:09:23,720
Speaker 1: its behavior is coherent and has rational justifications. Uh, and

1281
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:26,400
Speaker 1: if possible to convince the conscious part of the brain

1282
01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:29,160
Speaker 1: that it's in control. I think this is kind of

1283
01:09:29,200 --> 01:09:32,360
Speaker 1: like at work, when you give the boss three options.

1284
01:09:32,400 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, here are the three things we

1285
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:36,200
Speaker 1: came up with, and you've got the one you actually

1286
01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:38,640
Speaker 1: want to go with. Uh, And then you've got to

1287
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:41,960
Speaker 1: like terrible options that are designed in order to be

1288
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:45,200
Speaker 1: ignored and discarded by the boss and flatter the boss

1289
01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:47,560
Speaker 1: and give them a sense of control, which can be

1290
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:51,120
Speaker 1: a dangerous exercise. Absolutely, I'm not advising that is a

1291
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:54,080
Speaker 1: good strategy. I'm just saying people do it. To look

1292
01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:56,759
Speaker 1: quickly at one more study I found. This was published

1293
01:09:56,800 --> 01:10:02,000
Speaker 1: in in p N A. S By by Darby, jouts Burke,

1294
01:10:02,120 --> 01:10:07,040
Speaker 1: and Fox called lesion network localization of free will. Very briefly,

1295
01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:11,960
Speaker 1: the authors here defined the define the neurologically relevant parts

1296
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:14,840
Speaker 1: of free will as having two parts. So first of all,

1297
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:17,639
Speaker 1: there's the desire to act. That's volition. You know, you've

1298
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:21,559
Speaker 1: got volitional control, and then a sense of responsibility for

1299
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:24,439
Speaker 1: that action, which is the feeling of agencies. You have

1300
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:28,640
Speaker 1: volition and agency. And then they looked at two neurological conditions.

1301
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:31,920
Speaker 1: One that is believed to disrupt each of these functions. Uh.

1302
01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:35,280
Speaker 1: They looked at focal brain lesions that disrupt a volition

1303
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:39,040
Speaker 1: causing a kinetic mutism. And a kinetic mutism is a

1304
01:10:39,080 --> 01:10:42,759
Speaker 1: condition where patients are unable to voluntarily move or speak.

1305
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:45,599
Speaker 1: This would of course be a disruption of the volition

1306
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:48,880
Speaker 1: part of the brain. And then lesions that disrupt agency

1307
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:51,800
Speaker 1: and this would of course cause alien Limb syndrome. Again

1308
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:54,320
Speaker 1: Alien Lynn syndrome. That's where you've got part of your

1309
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:56,640
Speaker 1: body acting or moving in a way that does not

1310
01:10:56,760 --> 01:10:59,640
Speaker 1: feel voluntary. It moves, but you don't feel like you

1311
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:03,200
Speaker 1: did did. And then they basically found that brain lesions

1312
01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:06,120
Speaker 1: that disrupt volition occur all over the brain, but there

1313
01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:09,040
Speaker 1: within a brain network that is connected in some way

1314
01:11:09,080 --> 01:11:12,679
Speaker 1: to the anterior singulate cortex. And they found that lesions

1315
01:11:12,720 --> 01:11:16,200
Speaker 1: that disrupt agency also occur in different locations around the brain,

1316
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:19,200
Speaker 1: but they tend to be defined by connectivity to a

1317
01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 1: part of the brain called the pre qunus. Now, again

1318
01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:25,640
Speaker 1: I would note that this this acknowledges physical evidence that

1319
01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:30,400
Speaker 1: there are distinct brain processes involved in generating action, you know,

1320
01:11:30,520 --> 01:11:35,559
Speaker 1: volition versus recognizing personal agency in that action, and typical

1321
01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:39,360
Speaker 1: brains executing typical actions have both of these acting in sync.

1322
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:42,680
Speaker 1: But brains can have either one without the other. Now,

1323
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:46,120
Speaker 1: obviously we could keep going here, We could keep discussing uh,

1324
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:49,080
Speaker 1: free will and what feels like free will and how

1325
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:53,880
Speaker 1: it matches up with with neuroscientific data, etcetera. But at

1326
01:11:53,880 --> 01:11:55,559
Speaker 1: this point the podcast, we probably do need to bring

1327
01:11:55,600 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 1: it back around to band or snatch and the question like, okay,

1328
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:01,880
Speaker 1: given all this stuff we've talked about. What does Bandersnatch

1329
01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:05,120
Speaker 1: seem to be saying about all of this, Well, it

1330
01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:08,280
Speaker 1: does seem to be largely a rumination on the idea

1331
01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:10,519
Speaker 1: that we do not seem to have as much free

1332
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:14,479
Speaker 1: will as we think we do. That that we can resist,

1333
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:17,800
Speaker 1: but it takes considerable effort to run counter to the

1334
01:12:18,160 --> 01:12:20,800
Speaker 1: current that we're stuck in. I would say a thing

1335
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:23,519
Speaker 1: that is a theme that has hammered home about free will,

1336
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:26,520
Speaker 1: and it is the more we look at the concept

1337
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:29,040
Speaker 1: of free will and think about whether we have control

1338
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:32,080
Speaker 1: over our actions, the less we feel we have it. Yeah,

1339
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:34,080
Speaker 1: Like I was thinking, I was trying to list, like

1340
01:12:34,400 --> 01:12:39,719
Speaker 1: all the various factors and agents that are influencing Stephen

1341
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:43,479
Speaker 1: in the story. I mean, we have his mental health,

1342
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:47,800
Speaker 1: his past trauma, his father, his therapist, uh, the the

1343
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:51,479
Speaker 1: the work and tragic life, the influence of Jerome F. Davies,

1344
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:56,120
Speaker 1: his boss at Tucker Soft, his mentor slash hero, slash

1345
01:12:56,200 --> 01:13:01,320
Speaker 1: friend Colin Rittman, conspiracy theories, music, need, etcetera. And that's

1346
01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:03,760
Speaker 1: not even getting into the Specco development that there is

1347
01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:07,920
Speaker 1: either an actual demon entity that is the literal thief

1348
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:11,800
Speaker 1: of destiny or that a power beyond himself is influencing

1349
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:14,559
Speaker 1: his decisions, some sort of voice from beyond, or the

1350
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:18,200
Speaker 1: machinations of a player in another world. Yeah, the story

1351
01:13:18,280 --> 01:13:22,280
Speaker 1: really brings home this paradox, which is that I think

1352
01:13:22,280 --> 01:13:25,280
Speaker 1: it is the case that the closer we look at

1353
01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:27,880
Speaker 1: free will and the more we uh, you know, bring

1354
01:13:28,040 --> 01:13:32,280
Speaker 1: bring our our sharpest scientific tools and and philosophical instruments

1355
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:35,519
Speaker 1: to uh to understand it, the less it seems to

1356
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:37,760
Speaker 1: make sense and the less it seems to be there.

1357
01:13:38,120 --> 01:13:40,720
Speaker 1: And yet at the same time that we acknowledge that

1358
01:13:41,040 --> 01:13:44,200
Speaker 1: to feel like your actions are not under your own

1359
01:13:44,240 --> 01:13:47,479
Speaker 1: control is not a heightened state of consciousness, that is

1360
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:51,000
Speaker 1: still a problem and it uh and I don't know

1361
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:54,519
Speaker 1: exactly what that signals. That maybe yet another unresolved tension

1362
01:13:54,560 --> 01:13:56,920
Speaker 1: in the the issue of free will, that like, the

1363
01:13:57,000 --> 01:13:59,400
Speaker 1: more closely we examine it, the less we feel like

1364
01:13:59,439 --> 01:14:02,759
Speaker 1: we have it, and yet genuinely feeling like you don't

1365
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:05,200
Speaker 1: have it, the more you feel that way, the more

1366
01:14:05,320 --> 01:14:09,679
Speaker 1: this is a serious impediment to you living a healthy life. Now,

1367
01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:12,320
Speaker 1: this seems this may seem like a logical place to

1368
01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:16,000
Speaker 1: end the conversation, but one of the things that's really

1369
01:14:16,040 --> 01:14:19,920
Speaker 1: interesting here is that is that we were talking about

1370
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:22,599
Speaker 1: an episode of Black Mirror that deals with free will

1371
01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:25,599
Speaker 1: and our choices in life. And and certainly again Black

1372
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:28,880
Speaker 1: Mirror frequently comments on our uneasy regarding new technology. But

1373
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:32,960
Speaker 1: then Band or Snatch itself, this show on Netflix, this

1374
01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:37,920
Speaker 1: this movie, this movie itself factors into some user concerns

1375
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:43,040
Speaker 1: about the future of this sort of interactive viewing technology. Yes, uh,

1376
01:14:43,120 --> 01:14:45,840
Speaker 1: you know, I would say one of the things that

1377
01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:48,679
Speaker 1: is a legitimate concern about free will, however you define

1378
01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:51,679
Speaker 1: it as as murky as it is. At least one

1379
01:14:51,720 --> 01:14:54,599
Speaker 1: thing that we want is to we want to think

1380
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:59,040
Speaker 1: that we understand the incoming influences on our behavior, right,

1381
01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:02,000
Speaker 1: Like you'd like to think that if I did X,

1382
01:15:02,479 --> 01:15:04,600
Speaker 1: I can sort of make sense of that it was

1383
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:07,280
Speaker 1: because I read this book, or I read this article,

1384
01:15:07,439 --> 01:15:10,240
Speaker 1: or I had a conversation with this person, and I

1385
01:15:10,320 --> 01:15:13,760
Speaker 1: connect the knowledge I gained through that or the influences

1386
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:18,040
Speaker 1: of those past experiences with the decision I just made.

1387
01:15:18,640 --> 01:15:22,280
Speaker 1: Life starts getting more difficult when you have trouble understanding

1388
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:26,559
Speaker 1: what the influences on yourself are. Does that make sense? Yeah? Yeah,

1389
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:29,040
Speaker 1: And we've we've discussed some of these in the past.

1390
01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:30,760
Speaker 1: We've discussed a number of these in the past, but

1391
01:15:30,840 --> 01:15:34,400
Speaker 1: technologically speaking, we have discussed advertising and we have discussed

1392
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:38,559
Speaker 1: social media, which are good things to keep in mind

1393
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:40,920
Speaker 1: as as we continue here, because there might not be

1394
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:43,479
Speaker 1: a band or snatcher a demon awaiting you in the

1395
01:15:43,520 --> 01:15:46,880
Speaker 1: maze of future interactive media technology, but there might just

1396
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:51,839
Speaker 1: be some highly targeted advertisements for example. Right. So, uh,

1397
01:15:52,280 --> 01:15:55,240
Speaker 1: Two individuals that I ran across the road about this

1398
01:15:55,280 --> 01:15:58,120
Speaker 1: topic or or or touched on this topic. One is

1399
01:15:58,280 --> 01:16:02,360
Speaker 1: Matthew Galt, who wrote about this last year for Vice's Motherboard,

1400
01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:05,040
Speaker 1: and then Tiffany schu wrote about it for The New

1401
01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:09,240
Speaker 1: York Times. So Galt wrote about Michael Veal, a technology

1402
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:14,559
Speaker 1: policy researcher at University College London, who utilized Europe's General

1403
01:16:14,640 --> 01:16:18,599
Speaker 1: Data Protection Regulation or g d p r UM law

1404
01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:22,839
Speaker 1: to request a copy of the data Netflix collected about

1405
01:16:22,960 --> 01:16:26,000
Speaker 1: him and his choices through the use of the band

1406
01:16:26,040 --> 01:16:30,040
Speaker 1: or Snatch program. Now they complied, perhaps in part because

1407
01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:34,440
Speaker 1: of vail status as a public person, but basically Netflix

1408
01:16:34,479 --> 01:16:38,440
Speaker 1: acquires this information in order to carry out the Bandersnatch experience,

1409
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:41,320
Speaker 1: which makes sense rights it has to chart your path

1410
01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:46,160
Speaker 1: through this this complex system but then also Netflix keeps

1411
01:16:46,160 --> 01:16:49,000
Speaker 1: this information, which the company claims is in order to

1412
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:52,559
Speaker 1: quote determine how to improve this model of storytelling in

1413
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:56,240
Speaker 1: the context of a show or movie. And I mean,

1414
01:16:56,439 --> 01:16:58,880
Speaker 1: on on one level, that sounds well and good as well,

1415
01:16:58,920 --> 01:17:02,479
Speaker 1: except that the veal thinks that Netflix quote should really

1416
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:05,960
Speaker 1: be using consent which you should be able to refuse,

1417
01:17:06,360 --> 01:17:09,880
Speaker 1: or legitimate interest meaning that you can object to it instead.

1418
01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:14,000
Speaker 1: Now in shoes article, she points to the early choice

1419
01:17:14,040 --> 01:17:19,320
Speaker 1: we make between uh Kellogg's Frosties and then Quaker Sugar Puffs.

1420
01:17:19,840 --> 01:17:22,519
Speaker 1: Now both of these are real serials, though I have

1421
01:17:22,600 --> 01:17:25,599
Speaker 1: to admit I thought Quaker Sugar Puffs was made up

1422
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:29,240
Speaker 1: because it has this ridiculous honey monster mascot. It's like

1423
01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:31,720
Speaker 1: super fun, kind of a cheddar Goblin sort of thing.

1424
01:17:32,479 --> 01:17:35,759
Speaker 1: But it turns out this was an actual UK product.

1425
01:17:35,800 --> 01:17:39,200
Speaker 1: It was just a UK only products, so Americans such

1426
01:17:39,200 --> 01:17:42,240
Speaker 1: as ourselves were perhaps not privy to it. But again,

1427
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:45,800
Speaker 1: both were real products, and neither one was a paid inclusion,

1428
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:49,120
Speaker 1: so it was not official product placement or product integration.

1429
01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:52,640
Speaker 1: And Netflix, of course is like an ad free UH

1430
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:56,759
Speaker 1: system anyway. But Shoe points to some of the words

1431
01:17:56,800 --> 01:18:00,640
Speaker 1: of Reed Hastings, co founder, chairman, and CEO of Netflix,

1432
01:18:00,840 --> 01:18:03,479
Speaker 1: who pointed out during a webcast tied to an earnings

1433
01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:09,880
Speaker 1: report that seventy of Bandersnatch viewers selected Kellogg Frosty's over

1434
01:18:10,320 --> 01:18:13,519
Speaker 1: the the the Quaker Sugar Puffs. No, I did too.

1435
01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:16,640
Speaker 1: I feel so vulnerable right now. I don't remember what

1436
01:18:16,760 --> 01:18:18,840
Speaker 1: I did the first time around. The first time I

1437
01:18:18,840 --> 01:18:21,200
Speaker 1: watched it, I also watched with my wife, so we

1438
01:18:21,200 --> 01:18:24,040
Speaker 1: were voting on which choices. You know, we're having a discussion,

1439
01:18:24,400 --> 01:18:26,160
Speaker 1: which I guess I should have mentioned that earlier, because

1440
01:18:26,160 --> 01:18:28,160
Speaker 1: that has a whole another wrinkled as a scenario of

1441
01:18:28,160 --> 01:18:32,320
Speaker 1: making communal choices and voting on something. But on my own,

1442
01:18:32,680 --> 01:18:35,120
Speaker 1: I chose the Quaker thing just because I thought it

1443
01:18:35,160 --> 01:18:39,520
Speaker 1: looked weirder. But again, I'm in the minority for doing so.

1444
01:18:39,520 --> 01:18:42,280
Speaker 1: So first of all, I think this is a shame,

1445
01:18:42,320 --> 01:18:44,639
Speaker 1: because I think the cover and TV advertisement for Quaker

1446
01:18:44,680 --> 01:18:47,479
Speaker 1: Sugar Puffs is awesome and weird. Again, but more to

1447
01:18:47,520 --> 01:18:51,519
Speaker 1: the point, as Shoe points out, Spencer Wig, a Netflix

1448
01:18:51,600 --> 01:18:54,320
Speaker 1: vice president, chimed in and joked, and let's be clear

1449
01:18:54,360 --> 01:18:56,680
Speaker 1: he was He was apparently joking that this was the

1450
01:18:56,720 --> 01:19:00,320
Speaker 1: most critical data point of the quarter. Now, she said,

1451
01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:03,120
Speaker 1: while Netflix doesn't run commercials and has stated that it

1452
01:19:03,160 --> 01:19:07,000
Speaker 1: would not use bandersnatch information for anything like this, others

1453
01:19:07,080 --> 01:19:10,479
Speaker 1: outside the company do see the potential, namely in quote,

1454
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:14,720
Speaker 1: the possibility of inserting brand name products into streaming shows

1455
01:19:14,760 --> 01:19:19,160
Speaker 1: based on data generated by interactive programming. Now, Shoe stresses

1456
01:19:19,160 --> 01:19:21,840
Speaker 1: that the technology to roll this out isn't here yet.

1457
01:19:22,280 --> 01:19:25,040
Speaker 1: But I suppose we have to to consider two key

1458
01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:29,400
Speaker 1: factors in that statement. So first of all, we're in

1459
01:19:29,400 --> 01:19:33,000
Speaker 1: the early days of truly you know, interactive features like

1460
01:19:33,040 --> 01:19:36,600
Speaker 1: this on major streaming platforms. Uh, you know assume and

1461
01:19:36,600 --> 01:19:39,000
Speaker 1: that is this assuming that it really catches on at all.

1462
01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:43,160
Speaker 1: As we've discussed, interactive cinema is not new. It's been

1463
01:19:43,200 --> 01:19:48,759
Speaker 1: around for decades and it has largely failed to catch on. Um,

1464
01:19:48,840 --> 01:19:53,200
Speaker 1: it is not like a driving force in our entertainment.

1465
01:19:53,520 --> 01:19:55,400
Speaker 1: You'll find plenty of examples of it. You also find

1466
01:19:55,439 --> 01:19:57,960
Speaker 1: a lot of computer games that that kind of fulfill

1467
01:19:58,040 --> 01:20:01,080
Speaker 1: this uh this niche right, I mean, um, those are

1468
01:20:01,080 --> 01:20:05,160
Speaker 1: also sort of failed. Yeah, um, you know, I would

1469
01:20:05,160 --> 01:20:07,479
Speaker 1: have there're certainly deeper dives and say the history of

1470
01:20:07,560 --> 01:20:10,600
Speaker 1: things like what Telltale games I think was the company

1471
01:20:10,760 --> 01:20:13,200
Speaker 1: that did a number of these things that were again

1472
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:16,559
Speaker 1: not not really released, as they weren't marketed as interactive

1473
01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:20,240
Speaker 1: movies so much as they were interactive gaming experiences. UM.

1474
01:20:20,320 --> 01:20:23,759
Speaker 1: So that's one thing to consider. Interest in interactive films

1475
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:25,400
Speaker 1: has essentially gone up and down over the years, and

1476
01:20:25,439 --> 01:20:29,240
Speaker 1: again it hasn't really like ignited. Still Netflix and and

1477
01:20:29,320 --> 01:20:32,960
Speaker 1: also Netflix itself has only released a handful of interactive titles,

1478
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:37,040
Speaker 1: mostly kids stuff. Bandersnatches their only true adult drama release

1479
01:20:37,439 --> 01:20:40,479
Speaker 1: in this of this product type, though they claimed to

1480
01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:44,400
Speaker 1: be doubling down on interactive content in the future, given

1481
01:20:44,560 --> 01:20:46,160
Speaker 1: you know how Netflix tends to be a little bit

1482
01:20:46,479 --> 01:20:49,479
Speaker 1: secretive about like what's coming out, um or at least

1483
01:20:49,479 --> 01:20:51,360
Speaker 1: they don't tell you a lot. I guess we'll just

1484
01:20:51,439 --> 01:20:53,800
Speaker 1: have to know about it when we see it pop up.

1485
01:20:54,560 --> 01:20:57,320
Speaker 1: But also it's also worth reminding ourselves that a great

1486
01:20:57,320 --> 01:20:59,760
Speaker 1: deal of work went into creating Bandersnatch as well. I

1487
01:20:59,800 --> 01:21:02,360
Speaker 1: think I think I've I've seen it written it like

1488
01:21:02,479 --> 01:21:06,719
Speaker 1: three times as much work went into Bandersnatch. Versus say, um,

1489
01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:10,280
Speaker 1: that long episode of the show that was approximately ninety minutes,

1490
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:14,840
Speaker 1: So is it cost effective content? Are all the limitations

1491
01:21:14,880 --> 01:21:17,679
Speaker 1: worked out yet. For instance, I don't believe bandersnatch works

1492
01:21:17,680 --> 01:21:20,920
Speaker 1: on many mobile formats or older models like you have

1493
01:21:21,040 --> 01:21:23,320
Speaker 1: to have uh, you know, something more updated, like I

1494
01:21:23,360 --> 01:21:25,600
Speaker 1: tried to load it onto my phone uh, and I

1495
01:21:25,640 --> 01:21:28,720
Speaker 1: have an older um iPhone. I tried to load it

1496
01:21:28,720 --> 01:21:31,719
Speaker 1: on there to watch on an airplane, and it wouldn't work.

1497
01:21:31,760 --> 01:21:34,360
Speaker 1: I had to watch it through my Xbox one. And

1498
01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:36,800
Speaker 1: another big concern is there would need to be I guess,

1499
01:21:36,920 --> 01:21:40,080
Speaker 1: enough interactive content out there tuned for this sort of

1500
01:21:40,080 --> 01:21:44,080
Speaker 1: thing to to generate the necessary user data to then

1501
01:21:44,120 --> 01:21:47,000
Speaker 1: be employed. I can really see this kind of thing

1502
01:21:47,040 --> 01:21:49,640
Speaker 1: being used as a as a major data mining that

1503
01:21:49,720 --> 01:21:52,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. It seems very possible to

1504
01:21:52,640 --> 01:21:56,360
Speaker 1: get psychologically salient information through this. Now, of course that

1505
01:21:56,479 --> 01:21:59,120
Speaker 1: they're already getting information through all kinds of things. You know,

1506
01:21:59,200 --> 01:22:02,639
Speaker 1: the tech business can get your information through, uh, through

1507
01:22:02,680 --> 01:22:05,760
Speaker 1: what you buy online, through what websites you visit, through

1508
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:08,519
Speaker 1: what you do on Facebook or other social media. Right

1509
01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:11,559
Speaker 1: Like a website like Netflix already knows what kind of

1510
01:22:11,600 --> 01:22:14,840
Speaker 1: movies you have watched, what kind you like, what kind

1511
01:22:14,840 --> 01:22:18,360
Speaker 1: of movies you want to like, and then also you

1512
01:22:18,360 --> 01:22:20,519
Speaker 1: know how you have rated things as well, and then

1513
01:22:20,560 --> 01:22:23,760
Speaker 1: they can serve you recommendation of what you might want

1514
01:22:23,760 --> 01:22:26,320
Speaker 1: to watch in the future right now. This is so,

1515
01:22:26,479 --> 01:22:29,280
Speaker 1: of course we're talking about this and possibly going multiple ways.

1516
01:22:29,360 --> 01:22:34,040
Speaker 1: One is using interactive choices in uh, in a film

1517
01:22:34,080 --> 01:22:36,519
Speaker 1: to gather data about you, and the other side would

1518
01:22:36,520 --> 01:22:42,600
Speaker 1: be giving like specially user tailored media experiences, which we

1519
01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:44,800
Speaker 1: already get somewhat of course on websites. You know, you

1520
01:22:44,800 --> 01:22:47,559
Speaker 1: get websites loading with the ads of stuff you searched

1521
01:22:47,600 --> 01:22:50,200
Speaker 1: for on Amazon and all that. But yeah, I guess

1522
01:22:50,360 --> 01:22:52,839
Speaker 1: we're being forced to consider what if that starts happening

1523
01:22:52,960 --> 01:22:56,280
Speaker 1: within the movies and TV shows you watch, So you

1524
01:22:56,280 --> 01:23:00,320
Speaker 1: start seeing product placement for specific products that are aimed

1525
01:23:00,400 --> 01:23:05,320
Speaker 1: at you individually within the show as you watch right right, Like,

1526
01:23:06,400 --> 01:23:09,120
Speaker 1: you know, they know that were given the serial scenario,

1527
01:23:09,280 --> 01:23:13,439
Speaker 1: like potentially the the the master of the content being

1528
01:23:13,520 --> 01:23:18,240
Speaker 1: Netflix or some other company. Hypothetically, they might know that

1529
01:23:18,320 --> 01:23:21,400
Speaker 1: you are saying more inclined towards you know, healthy lifestyle

1530
01:23:21,479 --> 01:23:25,480
Speaker 1: choices and therefore some sort of granola uh, you know,

1531
01:23:25,640 --> 01:23:29,360
Speaker 1: health wrapped content would be ideal for you in that scenario,

1532
01:23:29,600 --> 01:23:32,920
Speaker 1: or they might know that that's not your your your

1533
01:23:32,960 --> 01:23:35,679
Speaker 1: ideal serial, or maybe they know that you have children

1534
01:23:35,720 --> 01:23:37,720
Speaker 1: in the house, and therefore a children's cereal would be

1535
01:23:37,800 --> 01:23:41,200
Speaker 1: more appropriate. Like that's the kind of information that they

1536
01:23:41,200 --> 01:23:45,120
Speaker 1: could conceivably have and then feed into the cereal that

1537
01:23:45,160 --> 01:23:47,840
Speaker 1: appears before you on the screen. Now, that would be,

1538
01:23:47,920 --> 01:23:52,120
Speaker 1: of course, something we're more familiar with, just like inserting ads.

1539
01:23:52,160 --> 01:23:55,320
Speaker 1: And you might imagine a character walking past a billboard

1540
01:23:55,400 --> 01:23:57,920
Speaker 1: or something in the movie like happens all the time now,

1541
01:23:58,240 --> 01:24:01,800
Speaker 1: except that billboard can be you know, dynamically inserted with

1542
01:24:01,840 --> 01:24:05,840
Speaker 1: new imagery or something. I think things start getting even

1543
01:24:05,880 --> 01:24:10,320
Speaker 1: creepier when you imagine something more like Band or Snatch Itself,

1544
01:24:10,360 --> 01:24:13,080
Speaker 1: where there are alternative versions of a film that are

1545
01:24:13,120 --> 01:24:16,599
Speaker 1: specially tailor do you, that have different narrative content depending

1546
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:19,800
Speaker 1: on who's watching. I mean, so, one thing Robert and

1547
01:24:19,840 --> 01:24:22,000
Speaker 1: I were talking about briefly before we came in here

1548
01:24:22,080 --> 01:24:25,000
Speaker 1: is the idea that you know, we often know that

1549
01:24:25,160 --> 01:24:29,080
Speaker 1: movies can embody values, of course, you know that, like

1550
01:24:29,160 --> 01:24:32,719
Speaker 1: sometimes the values of of a filmmaker creator come through

1551
01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:35,679
Speaker 1: and what happens in a story, uh, and then other

1552
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:40,160
Speaker 1: times they're they're sort of like cheap attempts to display values.

1553
01:24:40,200 --> 01:24:42,599
Speaker 1: What would often be called like pandering, right, you know,

1554
01:24:42,880 --> 01:24:46,240
Speaker 1: like uh, you know, cheap appeals to patriotism or something

1555
01:24:46,280 --> 01:24:49,040
Speaker 1: like that in a movie, or or I don't know,

1556
01:24:49,080 --> 01:24:51,000
Speaker 1: I guess you could make an argument for Awards season

1557
01:24:51,240 --> 01:24:54,160
Speaker 1: Academy Awards bait as well. Right, yeah, sure, you know,

1558
01:24:54,360 --> 01:24:59,120
Speaker 1: just like sort of cheap attempts to exploit the specific

1559
01:25:00,400 --> 01:25:05,360
Speaker 1: desires or value interests of a specific target audience. Um.

1560
01:25:05,439 --> 01:25:08,920
Speaker 1: And and so you can imagine, okay, well, now, if

1561
01:25:08,960 --> 01:25:11,960
Speaker 1: a movie is made and it wants to pander, it

1562
01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:15,080
Speaker 1: needs to at least make a choice. Right. It's hard

1563
01:25:15,120 --> 01:25:18,559
Speaker 1: to pander to everybody at the same time. But you

1564
01:25:18,600 --> 01:25:22,720
Speaker 1: can imagine, okay, what if somebody just starts making more

1565
01:25:22,800 --> 01:25:25,040
Speaker 1: like a Bandersnatch kind of thing where maybe you don't

1566
01:25:25,080 --> 01:25:27,360
Speaker 1: make the choices, the choices are made for you based

1567
01:25:27,360 --> 01:25:30,920
Speaker 1: on what is known about your user profile. And so

1568
01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:33,920
Speaker 1: what I was imagining beforehand was you could have different

1569
01:25:34,160 --> 01:25:37,280
Speaker 1: versions of the movie Independence Day. You remember that speech

1570
01:25:37,320 --> 01:25:40,160
Speaker 1: Bill Pullman gives before they all get in the planes

1571
01:25:40,200 --> 01:25:43,559
Speaker 1: and go fly off and fight. Um, So it's this

1572
01:25:43,720 --> 01:25:46,800
Speaker 1: rousing moment where Bill Pullman gives this kind of innocuous

1573
01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:50,040
Speaker 1: speech that could appeal to basically anybody but you can

1574
01:25:50,160 --> 01:25:54,040
Speaker 1: make that speech a much more tailored, specific interest group

1575
01:25:54,080 --> 01:25:56,960
Speaker 1: pandering kind of thing, where you could have one version

1576
01:25:56,960 --> 01:25:59,519
Speaker 1: of the film that plays for somebody that that's that's

1577
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:02,320
Speaker 1: very elusive. He gives a speech, He's like, humans will

1578
01:26:02,400 --> 01:26:04,840
Speaker 1: join arms together around the world. There will be no

1579
01:26:04,920 --> 01:26:07,559
Speaker 1: more nations and borders and creeds, and we all, you know,

1580
01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:10,519
Speaker 1: we all unite as one and standing brothers and as

1581
01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:13,519
Speaker 1: brothers and sisters against this. Or you could have a

1582
01:26:13,600 --> 01:26:16,479
Speaker 1: version where he gives a speech about American exceptionalism and

1583
01:26:16,520 --> 01:26:18,720
Speaker 1: how we're the first and we stand up and fight

1584
01:26:18,760 --> 01:26:21,120
Speaker 1: when no one else will. Or you could get you know,

1585
01:26:21,160 --> 01:26:23,920
Speaker 1: you can imagine a million versions of this depending on

1586
01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:28,160
Speaker 1: what kind of user they think you are, who are watching, right,

1587
01:26:28,200 --> 01:26:32,600
Speaker 1: I mean, and that that kind of personality profile or

1588
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:36,000
Speaker 1: worldview profile would be pretty easy to acquire. I mean,

1589
01:26:36,040 --> 01:26:40,559
Speaker 1: basically websites like Facebook have that information, like they are

1590
01:26:40,600 --> 01:26:43,719
Speaker 1: They're not feeding you Independence Day UH with a tailored

1591
01:26:43,800 --> 01:26:47,280
Speaker 1: uh speech in it, but they are feeding giving you

1592
01:26:47,320 --> 01:26:51,679
Speaker 1: a feed that that that reflects your world views and values,

1593
01:26:52,040 --> 01:26:55,439
Speaker 1: and people are are very invested in like the values

1594
01:26:55,520 --> 01:26:58,639
Speaker 1: of what media they consume these days. I can imagine

1595
01:26:58,640 --> 01:27:02,160
Speaker 1: it being judged ay a very profitable enterprise by some

1596
01:27:02,200 --> 01:27:04,679
Speaker 1: studios to say, well, let's just cover all the bases.

1597
01:27:04,720 --> 01:27:07,280
Speaker 1: You know, we'll have way less trouble if we make

1598
01:27:07,320 --> 01:27:09,960
Speaker 1: a movie, you know, a version A of the movie

1599
01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:12,240
Speaker 1: for you and a version B of the movie for you.

1600
01:27:12,600 --> 01:27:15,200
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be a coherent vision or picture

1601
01:27:15,240 --> 01:27:17,679
Speaker 1: of the world. Yeah, this is you know, I can't

1602
01:27:17,680 --> 01:27:20,040
Speaker 1: help but think on past films like, for instance, we

1603
01:27:20,040 --> 01:27:23,080
Speaker 1: talked about Conan the Barbarian on the show in the past,

1604
01:27:23,439 --> 01:27:25,320
Speaker 1: like that is a film that has a has a

1605
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:29,639
Speaker 1: very particular view of what strength names and what uh

1606
01:27:29,680 --> 01:27:33,360
Speaker 1: you know, how power works, etcetera. And it's not everybody's

1607
01:27:33,880 --> 01:27:37,400
Speaker 1: political or philosophical cup of tea. I mean, you can,

1608
01:27:37,560 --> 01:27:39,960
Speaker 1: I think you can enjoy that film without focusing on

1609
01:27:39,960 --> 01:27:44,120
Speaker 1: all of that. But still it's definitely there um and

1610
01:27:44,120 --> 01:27:46,120
Speaker 1: and that's not a film, I mean, especially at the

1611
01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:48,000
Speaker 1: time it came out, It's not a film where you

1612
01:27:48,040 --> 01:27:51,800
Speaker 1: would necessarily ask for an alternate version of it. But again,

1613
01:27:51,800 --> 01:27:53,760
Speaker 1: it's very clear and what it's saying. But then you

1614
01:27:53,760 --> 01:27:56,920
Speaker 1: have films like say Patton. Patton is often brought up

1615
01:27:56,920 --> 01:27:59,680
Speaker 1: as example of a film that meant one thing to

1616
01:28:00,080 --> 01:28:02,680
Speaker 1: one part of a divided America and another to the

1617
01:28:02,720 --> 01:28:06,040
Speaker 1: other part of the divided America without having to have

1618
01:28:06,200 --> 01:28:08,600
Speaker 1: like an A B version, Right. Yeah, I think you

1619
01:28:08,600 --> 01:28:11,080
Speaker 1: could say that about a lot of like war movies, especially.

1620
01:28:11,400 --> 01:28:13,519
Speaker 1: I think that might be sort of true of Platoon, Right,

1621
01:28:14,360 --> 01:28:17,519
Speaker 1: Is that like an anti war movie or a patriotic movie?

1622
01:28:17,600 --> 01:28:19,439
Speaker 1: You know, you sort of have some elements of each

1623
01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:22,559
Speaker 1: you can latch onto what you want to see there. Um,

1624
01:28:22,600 --> 01:28:25,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't know. I'm I'm somewhat disturbed by

1625
01:28:25,200 --> 01:28:28,840
Speaker 1: the idea of like of of media filling up with

1626
01:28:28,920 --> 01:28:32,240
Speaker 1: these like personally tailored options that are designed to make

1627
01:28:32,280 --> 01:28:37,400
Speaker 1: a sort of like generic media template, uh, individually palatable

1628
01:28:37,439 --> 01:28:40,600
Speaker 1: to the user, as opposed to standing for something on

1629
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:42,960
Speaker 1: its own and allowing you to judge it. Yeah, Or

1630
01:28:43,040 --> 01:28:47,920
Speaker 1: having some level of ambiguity like does the does the

1631
01:28:47,000 --> 01:28:50,879
Speaker 1: the modern audience and like the the near future audience,

1632
01:28:50,960 --> 01:28:53,840
Speaker 1: do they want ambiguity in their work or do they

1633
01:28:53,920 --> 01:28:58,800
Speaker 1: want like a clear cut view that is expressed clear

1634
01:28:58,840 --> 01:29:01,240
Speaker 1: cut values not only of the film but of like

1635
01:29:01,360 --> 01:29:04,519
Speaker 1: the creator or creators behind it, like they you know,

1636
01:29:04,840 --> 01:29:08,320
Speaker 1: is there is there an increased hunger for that? And

1637
01:29:08,320 --> 01:29:10,919
Speaker 1: and if that is the case, you could easily see

1638
01:29:11,120 --> 01:29:13,759
Speaker 1: a way of worming around that by taking this ABC

1639
01:29:13,920 --> 01:29:17,840
Speaker 1: approach to film creation, because then nobody can say, well,

1640
01:29:18,200 --> 01:29:20,160
Speaker 1: I like the character of Conan the Barbarian, but I

1641
01:29:20,160 --> 01:29:24,439
Speaker 1: think your view is is pro totalitarianism and uh and

1642
01:29:24,439 --> 01:29:27,160
Speaker 1: and you know, I don't know, I celebrates uh toxic

1643
01:29:27,200 --> 01:29:30,320
Speaker 1: masculinity or whatever the critique might be. And then they

1644
01:29:30,320 --> 01:29:33,000
Speaker 1: could say, well, that's all good, well and good, but

1645
01:29:33,000 --> 01:29:35,760
Speaker 1: you're you're only talking about one version. If you watch

1646
01:29:35,840 --> 01:29:41,480
Speaker 1: Conan the Barbarian, uh, you know, the the uh relaunch

1647
01:29:41,560 --> 01:29:44,360
Speaker 1: of the platform, then you will get what is tailored

1648
01:29:44,360 --> 01:29:47,840
Speaker 1: to you. Its treatment of masculinity and power will be

1649
01:29:47,880 --> 01:29:52,280
Speaker 1: exactly what you want to see. And I mean that

1650
01:29:52,439 --> 01:29:55,200
Speaker 1: opens the door to just a big question of like

1651
01:29:55,240 --> 01:29:58,599
Speaker 1: what art is and what does that do to uh,

1652
01:29:58,640 --> 01:30:00,679
Speaker 1: you know, to to the role of the these narratives

1653
01:30:00,720 --> 01:30:03,760
Speaker 1: in our in our culture. I remember many years ago

1654
01:30:03,920 --> 01:30:08,360
Speaker 1: how much of like uh the new Internet and the

1655
01:30:08,400 --> 01:30:11,400
Speaker 1: new media landscape was being sold to us. It was

1656
01:30:11,520 --> 01:30:16,000
Speaker 1: so often on the selling point of customization and individualization.

1657
01:30:16,520 --> 01:30:19,520
Speaker 1: You know, get what's right for you, get an experience

1658
01:30:19,600 --> 01:30:22,719
Speaker 1: that's personally tailored for you. And somehow I just feel

1659
01:30:22,720 --> 01:30:26,240
Speaker 1: like we were not able to anticipate how scary and

1660
01:30:26,320 --> 01:30:30,120
Speaker 1: messed up that would feel when it actually happened. I

1661
01:30:30,200 --> 01:30:31,800
Speaker 1: like to come back to Banterer's net. The first time

1662
01:30:31,840 --> 01:30:35,160
Speaker 1: I watched it, I think it probably was over two

1663
01:30:35,160 --> 01:30:38,760
Speaker 1: hours that I spent questing after the happy ending, and

1664
01:30:38,760 --> 01:30:41,120
Speaker 1: I got it, and I have to admit I felt

1665
01:30:41,120 --> 01:30:44,320
Speaker 1: a little empty when I reached it. The second time,

1666
01:30:44,560 --> 01:30:47,720
Speaker 1: I tried to just again make more dramatic choices, Uh,

1667
01:30:47,960 --> 01:30:49,599
Speaker 1: make a choice here and there that were just different

1668
01:30:49,600 --> 01:30:51,760
Speaker 1: from what I did the first time. I got a

1669
01:30:51,880 --> 01:30:56,720
Speaker 1: bleak ending, but it it felt more authentic. Um so,

1670
01:30:56,960 --> 01:31:01,679
Speaker 1: uh yeah, it's interesting to think about, like how how

1671
01:31:01,800 --> 01:31:05,840
Speaker 1: choice potentially impacts our appreciation of of a work like this,

1672
01:31:05,960 --> 01:31:10,559
Speaker 1: especially if we're talking about increasingly interactive work in a

1673
01:31:10,640 --> 01:31:13,439
Speaker 1: hypothetical future. Had to find a good bleak note to

1674
01:31:13,560 --> 01:31:15,400
Speaker 1: end on, I think that's it. Yeah, yeah, I mean,

1675
01:31:15,400 --> 01:31:18,439
Speaker 1: if we're talking about black Mirror, that's that's where we

1676
01:31:18,439 --> 01:31:21,400
Speaker 1: have to leave it. All right, Well, we covered a

1677
01:31:21,439 --> 01:31:24,360
Speaker 1: lot of ground in there. Um. I imagine listeners will

1678
01:31:24,360 --> 01:31:27,240
Speaker 1: want to chime in, certainly on Bandersnatch if they have

1679
01:31:27,320 --> 01:31:29,559
Speaker 1: experienced it. I'd love to hear from anyone who's like,

1680
01:31:29,600 --> 01:31:31,559
Speaker 1: how much time did you spend on banders such? How

1681
01:31:31,560 --> 01:31:33,519
Speaker 1: many viewings have you given? Did you do like Joe

1682
01:31:33,880 --> 01:31:37,080
Speaker 1: and go in and try and find every Golden Easter egg?

1683
01:31:37,200 --> 01:31:38,560
Speaker 1: I didn't get all of them, but I got a

1684
01:31:38,640 --> 01:31:40,240
Speaker 1: lot of them. Or did you do like me? Did

1685
01:31:40,240 --> 01:31:42,080
Speaker 1: you sort of go through it once and maybe go

1686
01:31:42,080 --> 01:31:44,000
Speaker 1: through a second time? And maybe you haven't seen or

1687
01:31:44,080 --> 01:31:46,880
Speaker 1: haven't read about the other endings. And of course free

1688
01:31:46,880 --> 01:31:49,880
Speaker 1: Will you all have it or maybe you all don't

1689
01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:52,160
Speaker 1: have it, but you think you have it, which however

1690
01:31:52,200 --> 01:31:53,559
Speaker 1: you want to look at it. You all have some

1691
01:31:53,720 --> 01:31:56,080
Speaker 1: thoughts about free Will. You all you all have some

1692
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Speaker 1: experience to share about this, and we would love to

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Speaker 1: another show out there titled Invention and Invention covers Human

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Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson, who

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Speaker 1: is doing a heroic quick turnaround on today's episode, So

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