WEBVTT - Michael Pollan on The Power of Plants 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:24.076 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:24.076 --> 0:00:27.556 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:28.036 --> 0:00:33.396 I'm Noah Feldman. Every generation has a handful of thinkers 0:00:33.396 --> 0:00:37.156 and writers who profoundly shape the way we experience the 0:00:37.196 --> 0:00:42.116 world by tapping into the seitgeist, the spirit of the Times. 0:00:42.916 --> 0:00:47.716 Today's guest, Michael Pollen, is one of those rare individuals. First, 0:00:47.716 --> 0:00:50.596 he did it for food, with a series of important 0:00:50.596 --> 0:00:53.396 and influential books and articles for The New Yorker and 0:00:53.396 --> 0:00:55.796 The New York Times that change the way we thought 0:00:55.836 --> 0:00:58.316 about how our food was made and about what sorts 0:00:58.316 --> 0:01:01.796 of foods we should eat. In recent years, he's been 0:01:01.796 --> 0:01:05.956 doing it again, this time with psychedelics, with books like 0:01:06.116 --> 0:01:09.276 How to Change Your Mind and most recently, This Is 0:01:09.316 --> 0:01:13.436 Your Mind on Plants. Throughout this body of work, Michael 0:01:13.516 --> 0:01:18.356 has focused on the intersecting point between nature and culture, 0:01:18.676 --> 0:01:21.636 and he tries both to tell our stories and to 0:01:21.676 --> 0:01:25.276 guide us directionally and how we ought to experience the world. 0:01:25.956 --> 0:01:28.956 Michael therefore writes about power, one of our central themes 0:01:28.996 --> 0:01:31.596 here on Deep Background this season. But he is also 0:01:31.756 --> 0:01:36.036 someone who, in his own gentle way, deploys a substantial 0:01:36.156 --> 0:01:39.436 amount of power in our culture because here today to 0:01:39.476 --> 0:01:41.636 talk about his new book and the trajectory of his 0:01:41.716 --> 0:01:49.636 career and how it all fits together. Michael, thank you 0:01:49.796 --> 0:01:53.796 so much for being here. There are so many questions 0:01:53.836 --> 0:01:56.436 that I want to ask you, but let me start 0:01:56.836 --> 0:02:02.236 with one aspect of your fascinating new book. This is 0:02:02.236 --> 0:02:06.276 your Mind on Plants. And this book is many different things, 0:02:06.316 --> 0:02:10.676 but one of them is a kind of philosophical meditation 0:02:11.396 --> 0:02:15.716 on the fates of different plant based substances and how 0:02:15.836 --> 0:02:20.916 we end up regulating them. And I'm wondering how you 0:02:21.076 --> 0:02:26.836 came to that thematic arrangement for the book, with your 0:02:26.876 --> 0:02:32.276 three substances and the different status that each has. So 0:02:32.316 --> 0:02:35.676 I looked at three plants and the chemicals they produced, 0:02:35.756 --> 0:02:38.236 the psychoactive chemicals they produced, and I wanted to make 0:02:38.236 --> 0:02:40.916 sure one of them was legal and completely acceptable in 0:02:40.956 --> 0:02:45.076 our society and virtually invisible for that reason, and that 0:02:45.156 --> 0:02:48.516 was caffeine. And I wanted to change the context of 0:02:48.916 --> 0:02:52.996 opium and mescal in two by putting the three together. 0:02:53.596 --> 0:02:56.276 Had the book been all illegal substances, it would have 0:02:56.276 --> 0:02:59.476 been a drug book. But it's much more interested in 0:02:59.516 --> 0:03:05.516 looking past the categories, which are interesting and arbitrary in 0:03:05.556 --> 0:03:10.076 some ways logical and others to this base human drive 0:03:10.396 --> 0:03:12.956 to change consciousness, which I think is such a curious 0:03:13.036 --> 0:03:17.676 thing that we were born with this apparently this desire, 0:03:17.916 --> 0:03:20.716 and it manifests itself even in children who loved to 0:03:20.796 --> 0:03:25.796 spin and get dizzy, to very normal consciousness, to transcend 0:03:26.356 --> 0:03:29.756 the ego or reinforce it in the case of some drugs, 0:03:29.876 --> 0:03:33.916 and we have these remarkable tools presented to us by plants. 0:03:34.476 --> 0:03:36.876 So I wanted to sort of change the context because 0:03:36.916 --> 0:03:41.196 people go right to these categories illicit drug, acceptable drug, 0:03:41.396 --> 0:03:44.356 pharmaceutical drug, but if you go back in time, you 0:03:44.396 --> 0:03:47.276 know they've been upside down. I mean, there was a 0:03:47.356 --> 0:03:50.876 time I described in the Opium chapter where the farmer 0:03:50.996 --> 0:03:53.956 on the land where I now live in Connecticut, he 0:03:54.196 --> 0:03:59.436 was making alcohol from his apples, making hard cider, which 0:03:59.436 --> 0:04:01.556 is a very common drink in rural America for a 0:04:01.596 --> 0:04:04.236 long time. That was a federal crime that could have 0:04:04.276 --> 0:04:08.796 put him in jail. At that very moment, the women 0:04:09.356 --> 0:04:14.516 for temperance were commonly enjoying their women's tonics, which were 0:04:14.516 --> 0:04:17.996 these preparations you could buy at drug stores that contained 0:04:17.996 --> 0:04:21.996 opium and cannabis, and that was perfectly legal, So I'm 0:04:22.036 --> 0:04:24.916 trying to kind of defamiliarize ourselves with these categories a 0:04:24.956 --> 0:04:27.396 little bit and get us to start read thinking them. 0:04:28.316 --> 0:04:31.916 It was really fascinating to me reading the book, because, 0:04:32.196 --> 0:04:35.476 as you've just very well described, we haven't yet gotten 0:04:35.516 --> 0:04:37.996 to a peyote, the third substance you talk about. You 0:04:38.076 --> 0:04:42.316 wanted three substances with different legal categorizations because you were 0:04:42.356 --> 0:04:45.756 trying to move us away from thinking about the legal 0:04:45.796 --> 0:04:49.996 categorizations and towards the plants and the human impulse to 0:04:50.156 --> 0:04:54.876 ingest the psychoactive and yet or maybe, and also the 0:04:54.956 --> 0:04:58.276 book that Emerged spends some time talking about the basic 0:04:58.316 --> 0:05:02.556 human urge, sometime about the experiential relationship we have to 0:05:02.636 --> 0:05:06.596 these different plant based substances, But a lot of the 0:05:06.636 --> 0:05:10.316 book ends up being devoted to telling the story. You're 0:05:10.356 --> 0:05:12.636 such a good storytelling you couldn't help yourself but tell 0:05:12.676 --> 0:05:16.396 the story of how each of these substances came to 0:05:16.396 --> 0:05:22.356 occupy the regulatory category, whether social or legal or both 0:05:23.036 --> 0:05:25.236 that it did come to occupy. So, in a way, 0:05:25.716 --> 0:05:27.556 a book that sets out to be a book about 0:05:27.556 --> 0:05:32.276 the power of plants is also a book about human 0:05:32.356 --> 0:05:36.676 power and the way humans categorize and engage with these 0:05:36.716 --> 0:05:40.236 same plants, Oh, without question. I mean I'm fascinated by that. 0:05:40.316 --> 0:05:44.116 I'm fascinated by history and how at different times in 0:05:44.196 --> 0:05:47.436 history we see nature and culture in very different ways. 0:05:48.036 --> 0:05:51.636 And drugs are a great example, since they're constantly evolving 0:05:52.116 --> 0:05:54.516 in our estimation of them. I mean, right now, we're 0:05:54.556 --> 0:05:58.916 in the midst of a re categorization of psychedelics. I mean, 0:05:58.916 --> 0:06:02.436 there's still a Schedule one drug with no accepted medical 0:06:02.556 --> 0:06:05.556 use and a high potential for abuse, neither of which 0:06:05.596 --> 0:06:09.116 is true, but nevertheless that's the official category for psychedelic 0:06:09.556 --> 0:06:13.276 But because of this renaissance of research into their value 0:06:13.516 --> 0:06:16.956 as therapeutic aids to help people deal with mental illness 0:06:17.396 --> 0:06:21.036 and dying, they're undergoing a shift. And I think if 0:06:21.076 --> 0:06:23.596 we did this interview in five or ten years, they 0:06:23.596 --> 0:06:26.316 will no longer be on Schedule one and they will 0:06:26.356 --> 0:06:29.716 be part of the pharmacopeia. And nobody would have guessed 0:06:29.716 --> 0:06:33.236 that back in the late sixties when they were first prohibited. 0:06:33.756 --> 0:06:36.036 So we're in the midst of a sea change right now, 0:06:36.076 --> 0:06:39.396 I think, and obiits are going in the opposite direction, 0:06:39.436 --> 0:06:41.596 of course. But my message is too in the book, 0:06:41.676 --> 0:06:44.476 is it's not all one or the other. We need 0:06:44.516 --> 0:06:48.356 to think about drugs with the kind of negative capability 0:06:48.436 --> 0:06:50.956 or suppleness that the Greeks did. They called all these 0:06:51.036 --> 0:06:56.236 drugs pharmacon, which can mean both poison or medicine, and 0:06:56.396 --> 0:06:58.796 also scapegoat by the way, which is I think not 0:06:58.876 --> 0:07:01.116 an accident, because we tend to blame these drugs for 0:07:01.156 --> 0:07:04.196 all sorts of things. But it's very hard for us 0:07:04.236 --> 0:07:07.796 to hold two contradictory ideas in our head. And around drugs, 0:07:07.836 --> 0:07:10.956 you really have to because they can be very dangerous. 0:07:11.556 --> 0:07:13.716 They can get people into trouble, they can kill people, 0:07:14.556 --> 0:07:19.116 but they also can heal and give people insights into 0:07:19.436 --> 0:07:22.796 existence and shift their consciousness in ways that is very 0:07:22.796 --> 0:07:25.956 productive for them as individuals and for the species I believe. 0:07:26.516 --> 0:07:28.716 Do you have any hope that we would ever reach 0:07:29.036 --> 0:07:34.836 a more rational set of structures for making sense of 0:07:34.876 --> 0:07:38.876 this and governing it? And if so, what would rational 0:07:39.196 --> 0:07:41.116 look like to you? I mean, one could say, well, 0:07:41.396 --> 0:07:44.756 here's the thing about coffee or caffeine. It doesn't leave 0:07:44.756 --> 0:07:49.876 you rampaging in the streets. Right Yet, in your chapter 0:07:49.916 --> 0:07:52.756 on caffeine, you make the point that we can't just 0:07:52.956 --> 0:07:59.796 describe the effects of caffeine as minor or trivial. The 0:07:59.916 --> 0:08:03.876 hope that will ever be rational about this. The evidence 0:08:03.916 --> 0:08:06.116 of history is that we won't, and that there is 0:08:06.156 --> 0:08:10.196 a fundamentally irrational part of human life and of the 0:08:10.276 --> 0:08:14.396 human mind that drugs plays into. We're constantly, you know, 0:08:14.476 --> 0:08:17.916 we're meaning making creatures, and we will make meaning out 0:08:17.916 --> 0:08:20.636 of everything. And then if you take a particularly powerful 0:08:20.716 --> 0:08:24.956 substance that seems to have its own meanings and perhaps does, 0:08:25.556 --> 0:08:28.116 will project all sorts of stuff on that. But again, 0:08:28.196 --> 0:08:30.356 the same drug at different times in history can be 0:08:30.436 --> 0:08:35.556 regarded as encouraging passivity or encouraging violence. I mean, it's 0:08:35.636 --> 0:08:38.756 interesting how inconsistent we are even about the image of 0:08:38.796 --> 0:08:42.476 these drugs and what they do for us. I'm convinced 0:08:42.516 --> 0:08:48.516 that our interpretation of psychedelic experience owes maybe one part 0:08:48.876 --> 0:08:53.796 to the chemical and nine parts to culture and individual psyche. 0:08:53.916 --> 0:08:56.836 I mean, that we construct this experience. I've always wondered 0:08:56.876 --> 0:09:01.436 what would happen if psychedelics hadn't first been written about 0:09:01.436 --> 0:09:06.516 by Aldus Huxley, who puts a very Eastern spin on it. 0:09:06.516 --> 0:09:10.476 It's more like Eastern religion than Christian religion. And that 0:09:10.676 --> 0:09:14.356 orientalizing of psychedelics I think descends from him. It gets 0:09:14.356 --> 0:09:16.636 picked up by Leary, who used the Tibetan Book of 0:09:16.676 --> 0:09:20.716 the Dead to interpret the experience. What if some Christian 0:09:20.796 --> 0:09:24.356 mystics had written the first modern accounts of a psychedelic trip, 0:09:25.076 --> 0:09:28.356 would it have looked very different? I'm guessing it could be. 0:09:28.596 --> 0:09:31.556 It could have been constructed differently. But you have to 0:09:31.556 --> 0:09:35.476 tease apart what's really inherent about the experience. But people 0:09:36.236 --> 0:09:40.236 forget that everything you experience on a psychedelic is not 0:09:40.476 --> 0:09:44.836 in the molecule. The molecule doesn't have anything in it. 0:09:44.836 --> 0:09:48.636 It really is a catalyst for a process in your 0:09:48.676 --> 0:09:53.196 own mind that draws on everything in your memory, from 0:09:53.236 --> 0:09:57.156 your own personal experiences to what you've learned about how 0:09:57.196 --> 0:09:59.316 the world works. And this is one of the reasons 0:09:59.396 --> 0:10:02.036 I'm so interested in drugs. They're one of those interesting 0:10:02.116 --> 0:10:06.676 rubs between nature and culture, between our biology and everything 0:10:06.716 --> 0:10:09.796 we are because of the culture we inhabit. But then 0:10:09.796 --> 0:10:12.996 you have this other tradition though, right, the Native American 0:10:12.996 --> 0:10:18.316 tradition ayahuasca and payote and mushrooms. And I found that 0:10:18.996 --> 0:10:21.476 really fascinating, partly because I didn't know much about it 0:10:21.516 --> 0:10:25.356 and hadn't paid much attention to payote or the Native 0:10:25.356 --> 0:10:29.236 American use of psychedelics before, but they have a different 0:10:29.236 --> 0:10:34.076 construction and it's it's very religious, it's very social, which 0:10:34.156 --> 0:10:36.036 is interesting. I mean, the drug trip is not an 0:10:36.076 --> 0:10:39.796 individual matter, it's it's it's something that happens at the 0:10:39.876 --> 0:10:43.236 level of the community, so they put a different interpretation 0:10:43.276 --> 0:10:44.996 on it. Yeah, I think that's really important, and I 0:10:45.036 --> 0:10:47.636 agree that that's one of the really interesting things in 0:10:47.676 --> 0:10:50.316 your book. And you also show at the same time 0:10:50.956 --> 0:10:56.076 the connection of the history of mescaline and other cactus 0:10:56.076 --> 0:11:03.676 derivatives in resistance to the process of domination and cultural 0:11:03.676 --> 0:11:08.236 and literal genocide perpetrated against Native American peoples, especially in 0:11:08.236 --> 0:11:10.956 North America, but also in South and Central America, and 0:11:11.076 --> 0:11:14.036 the way that payote came to be part of the 0:11:14.156 --> 0:11:17.516 resistance to that story through the immersions of the Native 0:11:17.556 --> 0:11:20.596 American Payote Church in the late nineteenth century, and then 0:11:20.636 --> 0:11:24.396 it's flourishing again in the nineteen seventies and eighties. And 0:11:24.396 --> 0:11:26.996 that's a really rich and important part of your book. 0:11:27.236 --> 0:11:30.196 And I wondered if I could ask you about an 0:11:30.236 --> 0:11:32.316 aspect of that that has struck me when I hear 0:11:32.956 --> 0:11:37.516 contemporary non Indigenous people talking about the use of payote 0:11:38.316 --> 0:11:40.556 and that is, where do you think that fits into 0:11:40.556 --> 0:11:47.716 our discourse around cultural ownership and cultural appropriation, especially cultural 0:11:47.716 --> 0:11:50.676 ownership by indigenous peoples. I mean, on the one hand, 0:11:51.116 --> 0:11:53.396 they are in some sense part of the common legacy 0:11:53.396 --> 0:11:56.596 of all humans, and in another sense, they're very specifically 0:11:56.676 --> 0:12:01.916 connected to particular cultures, cultures that have suffered from destruction. 0:12:02.756 --> 0:12:06.116 So I wonder how you think about that. So I 0:12:06.156 --> 0:12:08.676 struggle with this because I was deciding whether I was 0:12:08.676 --> 0:12:12.076 going to use payote, having learned about the sensitivities about 0:12:12.076 --> 0:12:14.756 it on the part of Native Americans. I had interviewed 0:12:15.156 --> 0:12:19.076 many Native Americans who felt threatened by the white use 0:12:19.436 --> 0:12:22.236 or the non native use of payote. But there are 0:12:22.236 --> 0:12:25.156 two issues there. There's a cultural appropriation issue, and there's 0:12:25.156 --> 0:12:28.916 a material appropriation issue in that there is a shortage 0:12:28.916 --> 0:12:33.876 of payote, and that because of overuse. Because approaching this cactus, 0:12:33.876 --> 0:12:37.436 the sacred plant, which has become so essential to Native 0:12:37.436 --> 0:12:41.196 American identity among many tribes, hundreds of tribes now and 0:12:41.316 --> 0:12:44.396 has been such a powerful tool of healing the unique 0:12:44.396 --> 0:12:49.836 trauma of Native Americans, that I came to the conclusion 0:12:49.916 --> 0:12:51.716 that as a non Native, I should leave it alone. 0:12:51.836 --> 0:12:56.036 That that was the way to respect it. So I decided, 0:12:56.156 --> 0:12:58.916 even though I had some opportunities there were Native Americans 0:12:58.916 --> 0:13:03.796 willing to let me participate, the moral or ethical thing 0:13:03.836 --> 0:13:05.876 to do was not to do it. It's not to 0:13:05.916 --> 0:13:08.556 say I think that use of payote should be illegal. 0:13:09.196 --> 0:13:15.436 I do think we should explore what Native Americans have 0:13:15.516 --> 0:13:19.036 taught us about the healing potential of this compound, mescaline. 0:13:19.116 --> 0:13:23.196 They did discover mescaline. And then there's another argument about 0:13:23.276 --> 0:13:26.796 reparations and reciprocity. So there are companies that want to 0:13:26.876 --> 0:13:30.476 use mescaline in their research and possibly as a treatment 0:13:30.516 --> 0:13:33.436 for alcoholism, which is one of the big ways that 0:13:34.236 --> 0:13:37.596 Native Americans use it. Is there any obligation on the 0:13:37.636 --> 0:13:43.476 part of those companies to return profit or somehow recognize 0:13:43.556 --> 0:13:46.396 or share their intellectual property if they develop it with 0:13:46.516 --> 0:13:48.596 Native Americans. That's a really interesting question. I don't know 0:13:48.596 --> 0:13:51.476 the answer to that. People are struggling with that right now. 0:13:52.036 --> 0:13:54.836 But I do believe that even though all drugs should 0:13:54.836 --> 0:13:58.676 be decriminalized, I think as a matter of individual conscience, 0:13:58.796 --> 0:14:04.796 I would discourage non natives from using payote, especially because 0:14:04.836 --> 0:14:07.116 there are other ways to get it. To get mescaline. 0:14:07.196 --> 0:14:11.756 One is synthetic mescaline doesn't damage native payote stocks. And 0:14:11.836 --> 0:14:13.996 the other is this other cactus I talk about sam 0:14:14.036 --> 0:14:17.116 pedro or watchuma, which grows in South America. Very easy 0:14:17.116 --> 0:14:19.876 to grow here or grow your own payote if you're 0:14:19.916 --> 0:14:21.956 a very patient person and a good gardener. It takes 0:14:21.996 --> 0:14:25.796 fifteen years to get from seed to usable button. But 0:14:25.916 --> 0:14:29.756 I see no problem. I don't see that as cultural 0:14:29.756 --> 0:14:32.796 appropriation if you have some seeds and want to crow it. 0:14:33.196 --> 0:14:35.676 But again, people draw these lines in very different places, 0:14:35.676 --> 0:14:39.836 and Native Americans do. I mean, I talk to Native Americans, 0:14:39.876 --> 0:14:43.876 some of whom would say, you know, use all the 0:14:43.956 --> 0:14:47.276 synthetic mescaline and sam pedro you want, just leave our 0:14:47.316 --> 0:14:50.476 payote alone. And then I talk to others who said, 0:14:50.876 --> 0:14:53.476 if you're going to use mescaline, you owe us reparations 0:14:53.516 --> 0:14:57.276 because we discovered it. So there's not you know, Native 0:14:57.276 --> 0:14:59.836 American opinion on this is not monolithic by any means, 0:15:00.516 --> 0:15:03.836 and my own opinion is not monolithic either, as you 0:15:03.876 --> 0:15:16.316 can tell. We'll be right back. I want to turn 0:15:16.396 --> 0:15:21.116 to the magic word plants, which seems to be something 0:15:21.116 --> 0:15:24.676 that has almost talismanic quality in the body of work 0:15:24.676 --> 0:15:27.236 of Michael Pollen and in the culture at the moment. 0:15:27.276 --> 0:15:29.076 By the way, I mean, have you noticed how many 0:15:29.116 --> 0:15:32.516 products are now plant based in your supermarketing? Yeah? And 0:15:32.556 --> 0:15:35.436 I'm not sure that if you know, when future historians 0:15:35.476 --> 0:15:37.876 do an analysis of the evolution of the concept of 0:15:37.916 --> 0:15:40.876 plant based if they won't find you at the very 0:15:41.236 --> 0:15:45.076 beating heart of the birth of that movement. So I 0:15:45.076 --> 0:15:47.116 want to ask you about the about that word, about 0:15:47.116 --> 0:15:50.796 that the power of that word. You're a gardener, and 0:15:50.876 --> 0:15:53.636 that has something to do with your long term interest 0:15:53.676 --> 0:15:57.316 in plants, obviously, because it's famous to everybody. Now you're 0:15:57.356 --> 0:16:00.596 a dictum about what we should eat started with plants 0:16:01.316 --> 0:16:04.756 and was made plant central. I'm not really kidding. I 0:16:04.756 --> 0:16:06.516 think when someday they ask why all these things have 0:16:06.556 --> 0:16:08.516 the word plant based attached, they may come back to you. 0:16:09.116 --> 0:16:12.196 And then this book uses advisedly the word plants. You 0:16:12.236 --> 0:16:14.996 don't say drugs, you don't say medicines, which is a 0:16:15.036 --> 0:16:17.876 word that some users of psychedelics prefer, and that some 0:16:18.436 --> 0:16:20.676 Native Americans don't much like to hear used in this 0:16:20.716 --> 0:16:22.916 context because they take it very seriously and are not 0:16:22.956 --> 0:16:26.836 sure that everybody who uses these substances does. So talk 0:16:26.876 --> 0:16:32.596 to me about the word plants. Well, it's been such 0:16:32.636 --> 0:16:36.236 a kind of common word in my personal vocabulary for 0:16:36.276 --> 0:16:38.436 a long time. I don't have that much perspective on it. 0:16:38.556 --> 0:16:40.996 I used it in the title of this book in 0:16:41.116 --> 0:16:44.556 part to remind people that's where drugs come from, and 0:16:44.596 --> 0:16:49.476 that they are part of our relationship to the natural world, 0:16:49.956 --> 0:16:51.996 and we lose track of that. We think of drugs 0:16:52.036 --> 0:16:54.476 coming from laboratories, and some of them do, but a 0:16:54.476 --> 0:16:57.156 great many of them, of course, come from plants. And 0:16:57.236 --> 0:17:00.556 why do plants produce them? Then that opens up a 0:17:00.596 --> 0:17:06.156 whole conversation about evolutionary objectives of plants as opposed to people, 0:17:06.676 --> 0:17:11.716 the fact that they are geniuses chemistry and neurochemistry in particular, 0:17:12.116 --> 0:17:15.516 and why they are because they can't run away, basically, 0:17:15.516 --> 0:17:17.956 and so they have to use chemistry to either attract 0:17:18.036 --> 0:17:23.276 or repel. And I've been fascinated in that fact about 0:17:23.316 --> 0:17:25.916 plants for a very long time. These are not simple 0:17:25.996 --> 0:17:29.836 molecules they're making. And how incredible is it that a 0:17:29.916 --> 0:17:34.436 plant can hit on precisely the the chemical formula to 0:17:34.676 --> 0:17:38.876 have a profound effect on an animal brain. So I've 0:17:38.916 --> 0:17:41.876 been marveling at plants for a long time. I've been 0:17:41.876 --> 0:17:47.116 trying to win them more respect speak for them since 0:17:47.116 --> 0:17:53.596 they can't speak for themselves. Michael paulin Lorax. We'll put 0:17:53.596 --> 0:17:55.916 that on in the head notes of this interview. That 0:17:56.036 --> 0:17:58.996 did have a big influence on me, the Loax? Did 0:17:58.996 --> 0:18:00.716 it actually say? Would you say something about that? How 0:18:00.716 --> 0:18:02.316 old were you when you first heard of or read 0:18:02.356 --> 0:18:04.996 the Loax? You think, I don't remember. I don't. I 0:18:05.036 --> 0:18:07.076 think it came out a little late in my childhood. 0:18:07.076 --> 0:18:09.076 I'm not sure, but it was one of my sons 0:18:09.396 --> 0:18:11.876 favorite books, and this whole time I was beginning this 0:18:11.916 --> 0:18:14.876 work in the nineties, I read it to my son 0:18:14.996 --> 0:18:17.516 over and over and over again. I've got it pretty 0:18:17.596 --> 0:18:19.796 much committed to memory. I think at this point i'd 0:18:19.796 --> 0:18:21.916 have to go back and check what year the Lorex 0:18:21.956 --> 0:18:23.756 came out. I think of that as kind of late 0:18:23.796 --> 0:18:26.916 and tied to the environmental movement. It has sentiments in 0:18:26.956 --> 0:18:32.116 it that it's hard to imagine before nineteen sixty nine 0:18:32.196 --> 0:18:34.796 or so, when when the environmental movement is starting. Have 0:18:34.916 --> 0:18:37.996 you found it published June twenty three, nineteen seventy one, 0:18:38.196 --> 0:18:41.396 So historical analysis is confirmed in a real time. It's 0:18:41.476 --> 0:18:43.916 nice to when that happens. But the language is very 0:18:43.996 --> 0:18:47.636 much you know post Rachel Carson post the First Earth Day. 0:18:48.196 --> 0:18:50.516 So my exposure to it I was fifteen then or 0:18:50.556 --> 0:18:53.436 sixteen then, So I wasn't reading Doctor SEUs at sixteen, 0:18:53.716 --> 0:18:55.236 but I did read it over and over again to 0:18:55.276 --> 0:18:57.476 my son, who loved it. I also know I've written 0:18:57.476 --> 0:19:01.556 a lot about plant intelligence and the whole effort to 0:19:01.596 --> 0:19:05.556 figure out how intelligent are plants? Are they conscious? And 0:19:05.636 --> 0:19:07.636 what does that mean? I mean, I think we're learning 0:19:07.636 --> 0:19:12.196 some incredible things about plant intelligence, plant sociality. This is 0:19:12.236 --> 0:19:15.676 a kind of interesting moment for plant science, which has 0:19:15.676 --> 0:19:17.876 been a very sleepy field for a long time. If 0:19:17.876 --> 0:19:21.156 you talk to botanists, nobody was paying attention to them. 0:19:21.596 --> 0:19:26.156 But now you have all this work on how plants 0:19:26.156 --> 0:19:29.676 connect to one another, and the trees in a forest 0:19:29.676 --> 0:19:32.396 are very social. Suzanne Simard has a new book on 0:19:32.436 --> 0:19:36.476 this that's really interesting. She's done pioneering research showing that 0:19:36.516 --> 0:19:39.516 they can swap nutrients using these fungle networks. They can 0:19:39.516 --> 0:19:43.876 send messages, plants can hear. There's interesting research that if 0:19:43.876 --> 0:19:47.316 you play the sound of caterpillars chomping on leaves to 0:19:47.476 --> 0:19:51.356 other plants, they will arm themselves and produce defense chemicals. 0:19:51.876 --> 0:19:53.836 You know, they don't have ears, but they can hear, 0:19:54.236 --> 0:19:56.676 they don't have eyes, but they can see. I mean, 0:19:56.716 --> 0:19:59.556 they're just bizarre. So it takes a lot of human 0:19:59.596 --> 0:20:03.436 imagination to see the world from their point of view. 0:20:03.956 --> 0:20:06.516 And I've been eager to do that for a very 0:20:06.556 --> 0:20:09.556 long time and wrote a book in fact who's subtitle 0:20:09.716 --> 0:20:12.796 was A Plant's eye View of the World. And it's 0:20:12.836 --> 0:20:16.596 exciting to see there is, though, I worry a slightly 0:20:16.676 --> 0:20:20.036 mystical strain coming into some of this work about trees. 0:20:20.156 --> 0:20:22.116 I mean, there've been books out on trees that are 0:20:22.156 --> 0:20:26.716 more mystical than scientific that really strain credulity, at least mine. 0:20:26.956 --> 0:20:29.076 But in general, I think plants are getting a new 0:20:29.116 --> 0:20:31.596 respect and that does tie into, you know, what we're 0:20:31.676 --> 0:20:35.196 learning about nutrition. However, the twinkie is plant based too, 0:20:35.276 --> 0:20:37.356 I think we need to remember. And there's a lot 0:20:37.396 --> 0:20:41.556 of crap sold as plant based in the supermarket right now. Yeah, 0:20:41.556 --> 0:20:44.876 as is tobacco, as is you know, there are plenty 0:20:44.916 --> 0:20:48.316 of you know, plenty of other substances. I wouldn't put 0:20:48.316 --> 0:20:50.076 a caffe and quite in the tobacco category, but it's 0:20:50.076 --> 0:20:52.236 not in one of the good categories. I mean, as 0:20:52.276 --> 0:20:55.196 one expands the category of the plant, it can come 0:20:55.236 --> 0:21:00.076 to include not everything, but a large percentage of everything. 0:21:00.436 --> 0:21:03.116 I was interested to hear you say that sometimes the 0:21:03.156 --> 0:21:05.676 mystical tone of some of the plant work, the plant 0:21:05.676 --> 0:21:11.156 based work, strains creduli because you're interested in mysticism right 0:21:11.276 --> 0:21:14.196 in your work, there's a kind of you're on the edge. 0:21:14.196 --> 0:21:19.676 You're skirting the edge between giving us a rationalistic, scientific 0:21:19.756 --> 0:21:25.716 and social scientific contextualization, and you're at just at the edge, 0:21:25.796 --> 0:21:28.996 especially in your interest in consciousness. Here of a field 0:21:29.036 --> 0:21:33.716 of endeavor that is fundamentally mystical and that needs presumably 0:21:33.756 --> 0:21:36.196 to be processed mystically to make any sense out of 0:21:36.196 --> 0:21:38.916 it at all. Right, I mean to say meaning making 0:21:39.036 --> 0:21:41.676 is a rationalizing process. No, I mean, one way to 0:21:41.716 --> 0:21:44.676 make meaning is by making something rational. But another way 0:21:44.716 --> 0:21:47.156 to make meaning is to embrace its mystical quality. And 0:21:47.196 --> 0:21:49.596 it seems to me, with respect to psychedelics, that if 0:21:49.596 --> 0:21:52.556 we tried to reduce everything to its rational it seems 0:21:52.596 --> 0:21:56.716 like we would be missing the point. Yeah, so I 0:21:57.316 --> 0:22:00.796 flirt with mysticism, but I am very grounded in the 0:22:00.836 --> 0:22:04.836 scientific worldview. I get grief for this from certain people. 0:22:05.036 --> 0:22:07.396 In How to Change Your Mind, there were many people 0:22:07.436 --> 0:22:09.916 who objected to the fact that I didn't take seriously 0:22:10.076 --> 0:22:13.876 enough this idea I presented that consciousness is a field 0:22:14.756 --> 0:22:18.116 outside us, like the electromagnetic field that we tune into. 0:22:18.236 --> 0:22:21.476 That our brains are tuners or television sets. And I 0:22:21.516 --> 0:22:25.916 think that's a beautiful idea. But my mind goes to 0:22:25.956 --> 0:22:30.916 a more materialistic understanding that even though we don't understand how, 0:22:31.436 --> 0:22:35.796 consciousness is the product of our brains, and it's tempting 0:22:35.796 --> 0:22:38.716 to think otherwise. And I'm more open to that idea 0:22:38.836 --> 0:22:42.996 than I was before experience with psychedelics, but I haven't 0:22:43.036 --> 0:22:45.836 yet been persuaded, and I'm curious to learn more about it. 0:22:45.996 --> 0:22:50.676 But psychedelic experience for many people causes them to lose 0:22:50.876 --> 0:22:54.436 faith in the materialist view of consciousness. And it's important 0:22:54.436 --> 0:22:57.236 to mention that that material's view of consciouness is not 0:22:57.396 --> 0:23:00.236 well developed at all. Right, Okay, it's an easy thing 0:23:00.236 --> 0:23:02.956 to lose faith in my view. I mean, there are 0:23:02.956 --> 0:23:06.236 propositions of science that are well established, and if someone 0:23:06.276 --> 0:23:09.236 were to say, you know, I no longer believe in 0:23:09.276 --> 0:23:14.436 Newtonian mechanics, I would say something's not totally right there. 0:23:14.996 --> 0:23:17.236 On the other hand, when it comes to consciousness, there 0:23:17.316 --> 0:23:20.716 isn't really a respectable materialist account of consciousness at all. 0:23:20.716 --> 0:23:24.116 There is simply the commitment to the view that materialism 0:23:24.196 --> 0:23:26.596 must be true in light of what we observe, and 0:23:26.716 --> 0:23:30.516 therefore the consciousness must be reducible to the material which is, 0:23:30.516 --> 0:23:34.436 you know, that's a plausible inference, but it's a form 0:23:34.476 --> 0:23:38.716 of inductive reasoning. It's not deductive or demonstrated reasoning. That's right, 0:23:38.836 --> 0:23:41.556 And I think the Dalai Lama was quite correct when 0:23:41.556 --> 0:23:44.356 he said at the first Mind and Life conference where 0:23:44.396 --> 0:23:48.396 they brought together neuroscientists and Buddhists, that the material theory 0:23:48.436 --> 0:23:52.636 of consciousness is a very interesting hypothesis and we should 0:23:52.716 --> 0:23:56.116 give it no more credit than that. And so, you know, 0:23:56.236 --> 0:24:00.396 I'm open, but it must be my training and background. 0:24:00.436 --> 0:24:03.316 But even when I'm writing about plant intelligence, I'm always 0:24:03.316 --> 0:24:05.356 hanging out with people going a lot further than I'm 0:24:05.356 --> 0:24:07.836 willing to go in terms of saying plants are conscious. 0:24:08.276 --> 0:24:11.556 I have some sense that they have a point of view, 0:24:12.036 --> 0:24:14.556 but I don't think they're conscious the way we are. 0:24:14.716 --> 0:24:16.636 I don't think they're aware that they're aware. I think 0:24:16.676 --> 0:24:19.916 they have an awareness of their environment. I think they 0:24:19.956 --> 0:24:24.116