1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 2: Throughout My childhood. A pair of framed family trees hung 3 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 2: on an upstairs wall in Grandma PA's colonial style home, 4 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 2: white with black shutters, in the wealthy, largely Jewish suburb 5 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 2: of Scarsdale, a short commute from New York City. I'd 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 2: go up to them as a boy and stare at 7 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 2: the rows of generations spanning the two sheets of beige paper, 8 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 2: feeling a sense of pride. This is where I come from. 9 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 2: I think, this is who I am. 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: That's Adam Frankel reading from his memoir The Survivors, a 11 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: story of war, inheritance and healing. Adam's episode Bubby and 12 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: Zeta and Grandma and Pa, which dropped during the third 13 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: season of this podcast, has really stayed with me. This 14 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: is a special bonus episode of Family Secrets, in which 15 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: I'm joined by the psychoanalyst doctor Galite Atlas, author of 16 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: the international bestseller Emotion Inheritance. Galite and I will be 17 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: talking about what we can learn about family secrets from 18 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: the themes in Adam's story. I'm Danny Shapiro, and this 19 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: is Family Secrets. The secrets there are kept from us. 20 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: The secrets we keep from others and the secrets we 21 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: keep from ourselves. Galat, Welcome to the show. 22 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 3: Thank you for inviting me. I'm very honored to be 23 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 3: here with you, Danny. 24 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: As soon as you agreed to talk with me for 25 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: the show, I pretty much immediately knew which episode I 26 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: wanted to pick for us to discuss, and that episode 27 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: is Bubba and Zadi and Grandma and Pa by Adam Frankel. 28 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: And I thought of you because of your absolutely beautiful book, 29 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:59,279 Speaker 1: Emotional Inheritance, and the themes and the you know, the thoughts 30 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: that you have about the secrets that we keep and 31 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: the secrets that are kept generationally and their impact on us, 32 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes obvious and sometimes hidden, And this episode 33 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: is full of those themes and ideas. And so I'd 34 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: like to begin by asking you what was the first 35 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: thing that struck you listening to this episode. 36 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 4: I thought that this is, first of all, about all 37 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 4: a beautiful, beautiful episode that takes us in such a 38 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 4: delicate way into a therapeutic process and moving healing processes. 39 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 4: As we listen to Adam telling his story, and he. 40 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 3: Kind of holds our hands and takes us with him 41 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 3: to experience every stage of this and revelation and shocking 42 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,959 Speaker 3: things that he finds out and it's a healing process. 43 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 3: And of course, of course it also demonstrates how emotional 44 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 3: inheritance looks. 45 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: Like absolutely he embodies that. And I was struck when 46 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: I was listening to it again. It's been years since 47 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,959 Speaker 1: I've listened to it, and it was a treat that 48 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: listened to it again and almost as if I hadn't 49 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: recorded it. And I was struck by his describing his 50 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: childhood early in the episode as great and happy and uneventful, 51 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: and then we very quickly learn that like, wait a minute, 52 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: but his parents divorced and his mother was mentally ill. 53 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: That was just interesting to me, you know, the ways 54 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: in which we think about our lives and the narrative 55 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: of our lives and. 56 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 3: The familiar, right, the familiar narrative, there is some we 57 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 3: don't know anything else, this is our lives. 58 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: Right exactly. Also, I was struck by, you know, because 59 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: his childhood happens, of course, way before this bombshell revelation 60 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: that then shapes so much of his adult life, and 61 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: maybe at least consciously, really didn't shape that much of 62 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: his childhood. It was there somewhere, but you know, the 63 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: events of his childhood were more sort of garden variety. 64 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 1: Parents get divorced, his mom is troubled, but it's really 65 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: not until we reach the part in his episode that 66 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: is the before and after moment. 67 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 3: You know, this is such an important thing that you're saying, 68 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 3: because to me, what that means is that some of 69 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 3: the defenses, and I would even say the emotional inheritance 70 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 3: part of the defenses. We can talk about that how 71 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 3: that that defense is passed down from generation to generation, 72 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 3: that that defense makes exactly what you're describing, makes the 73 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 3: secret so compartmentalized, so dissociated, that life is a you know, 74 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 3: life is what it is. Everything else is kept in 75 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 3: some isolated place in the family's mind, especially his mother's 76 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 3: mind and his father too. And so I think that 77 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 3: what you're really saying here that is important is really 78 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 3: how something about the structure of the defensive structure of 79 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:25,799 Speaker 3: the family that we can trace back to the defensive structure, 80 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 3: especially on the mother's side, that is related to trauma. 81 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 3: And he is talking about that in the episode right 82 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 3: about the history of Holocaust and the secrets around the Holocaust, 83 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 3: and he's describing a family, that secret is part of 84 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 3: their legacy, and I think that that means that something 85 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 3: about that defense works very very well. 86 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: That's so interesting. He uses the word absorb a number 87 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 1: of times in our conversation, and there's a moment where 88 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: he says that the way in his family was to 89 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: absorb the secret, whatever the secret was, the sense that 90 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: something wasn't untouchable, you weren't supposed to go there, there 91 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: was this live wire and then move. 92 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 3: On, mm hmm. And it's a family collusion, like it's 93 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 3: collusion that happens in families. And I think Adam's story 94 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 3: shows us how the legacy of secrets lives in families, 95 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 3: how how living with secrets passes down right from one 96 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 3: generation to another. And the mechanism of dissociation. We all 97 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 3: use the association, right, We all use the association to 98 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 3: some degree to survive life. I want to say, but 99 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 3: in some families that that mechanism is really the major 100 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 3: mechanism and is an emotional inheritance. 101 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: Could you talk a little bit about association, And I'm 102 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: also wondering whether they're such a thing as healthy dissociation. 103 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 3: It's a very good question, and I think we these 104 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 3: days we really connect the association very very clearly directly 105 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 3: to trauma, even though wild association is a defense mechanism 106 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 3: that is there to protect us from horrible experiences. And 107 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 3: I'll explain what that means how does that work. But 108 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 3: it's important to say that we're all using that mechanism 109 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 3: to some degree. We're all capable of dissociating. It is something, 110 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 3: but it's a mechanism that disconnects. It's the fragmentation, the 111 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 3: ability to compartmentalize, to have I mean, in his story 112 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 3: you could see that, it's the ability to even have 113 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 3: parallel lives, to keep secrets in a way that is 114 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 3: not mixed with the rest of your life because it 115 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 3: lives in an isolated capsule. And those are some of 116 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 3: the defenses we use to manage the pain of life, 117 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 3: but mostly to servive traumatic experiences. And I think it 118 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 3: often makes us live a compromise life. But what it 119 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 3: means is that we protect our mind from pain, so 120 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 3: we help ourselves to not feel or not be fully present. 121 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 3: I think the most extreme extreme version of that is 122 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 3: in multiple personality, when you see what people experience really 123 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 3: really really terrible, especially physical trauma or physical abuse, emotional abuse, 124 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 3: what we hear from these patients in the office is 125 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 3: that they had to they see themselves from the outside. 126 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 3: They had to disconnect and kind of separate themselves from 127 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 3: their body, and that is a very extreme way to survive. 128 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 3: So I think it's important to really emphasize the importance 129 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 3: right the benefits and how important it is to respect 130 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 3: our defense mechanism. As an aside, I'll tell you just 131 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 3: so just to put it all together, that we could 132 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 3: see severity. So also in other pathologies. It's not only trauma. 133 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 3: We see that in sociopathy and psychopaths, you know, that's 134 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 3: it's that mechanism that we could see. It's it has 135 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 3: more healthy and important parts and more pathological aspect. 136 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: So for a relatively healthy, you know, worried well person 137 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: walking around and living their lives, not in a you know, 138 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: an extreme pathology situation, what paths does dissociation take? What 139 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: does it look like? What does it feel like? Because 140 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 1: it is something that I think I and my listeners 141 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:44,959 Speaker 1: we hear it bandied about all the time. It's a 142 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: it's a word that's become you know, used a lot 143 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: in our culture, you know, being dissociated. I mean, I've 144 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:54,959 Speaker 1: used it myself many times, do. 145 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 3: You know, I'll try to explain it in the most 146 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 3: simple way, the way I experience it, not in an 147 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 3: intellectualized way, because what I relate to, even as a 148 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 3: you know, as a human, I want to say, is 149 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 3: the experiences when I face something that is too painful 150 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 3: for me, there is a part of me that disconnects. 151 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 3: I'm not fully present to it, and I think, like, 152 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 3: for example, and I talked about it in the book 153 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 3: a little bit, when I lost my partner Louve, there 154 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 3: was a whole year where my dissociation was much much, 155 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 3: much more intense. With that means, and my kids used 156 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 3: to comment on that that it looks like I'm not 157 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 3: fully there. I kind of stare at things, I don't 158 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:52,199 Speaker 3: fully hear things, I don't fully respond quickly to things. 159 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 3: There is a part of me that is disconnected. And 160 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 3: so of course that was a response to a very 161 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 3: immediate for me. We're very immediate threat and fear and trauma. 162 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 3: But I think that the day to day, every day 163 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 3: way of experiencing that is in situations that are anxiety 164 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 3: provoking or trigger us in some ways, one of the 165 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 3: ways to deal with that is to just be a 166 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 3: little disconnected and it doesn't allow us allow us to 167 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 3: fully experience the experiences the threat. 168 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: And there's a paradox too, it seems to me, which 169 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: is that when we're in that state of being dissociated, 170 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: we don't know that we're doing that. You know, it's 171 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: not language that we're applying to it. Or when you're 172 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: checked out, you don't realize you're checked out because you're 173 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: checked out. 174 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 3: Right, It's important, you know, we in psychoanalysis, we also 175 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 3: differentiate it from repression, for example, which is in association, 176 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 3: it's your checkout, but it's not like you don't remember. 177 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 3: It's not like you don't know that something happened if 178 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 3: I tell you. And I think that in the office 179 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 3: with patients, patients that are highly dissociated, many of them 180 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 3: are patients who experience childhood to trauma or complex trauma, 181 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 3: are becoming dissociated in their everyday life as adults. And 182 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 3: that's something to just sometimes know about yourself, to respect, 183 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 3: to not necessarily challenge, but to acknowledge, to look at it. 184 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 3: And I think that people become more and more and 185 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 3: more aware. And in my experience, as you know, as 186 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 3: a psychoanalyst, I have seen people that that mechanism shifted, 187 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 3: that they're becoming less dissociated. And some of it is 188 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 3: the even the intellectual awareness of yeah, when something really 189 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 3: scary happens to me, or when I feel unsafe, or 190 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:58,959 Speaker 3: when something triggers me, I can become really disconnected. I 191 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 3: don't feel fully there. And you know, again, when we 192 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 3: think about there is there is a whole terminology of 193 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 3: repression and dissociation, and some of it is in the 194 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 3: old days. You know, the Freudians used to think that 195 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 3: repression is about forgetting something. I think that even that 196 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 3: is not fully true because as a defense against trauma, 197 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 3: even if we go back to the episode, I don't know, 198 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 3: I don't think we could say that maybe as an example, 199 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 3: Adam's mother was also she repressed that. But what that 200 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 3: means often is that somebody still could remember that that happened, 201 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:47,439 Speaker 3: but take away the meaning of the event. So we 202 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 3: kind of change the meaning of an event, especially emotional meaning. 203 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 3: And so that's something to look at. Also when we 204 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 3: think about secrets, how do we how do we remember 205 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 3: those secrets? I think sexual abuse is usually the kind 206 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 3: of traumas that we tend to and what I see 207 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 3: the office is that people can talk about it in 208 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 3: a mechanical way, but to protect themselves to feeling is 209 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 3: not there. 210 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. You know. There's another seemer sort 211 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: of aspect of Baba and Zadi and Grandma and Pa, 212 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: which is that this idea, you know, And I don't 213 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: want to give too much away about the episode itself, 214 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: because I really hope that listeners will go back if 215 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: they haven't listened to that episode and listen to it 216 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: in light of this conversation, because I just think it's 217 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: a really really powerful story, as you said, But there's 218 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: this aspect of our mission to recognize that something is 219 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: a trauma. And and Adam is so articulate about this. 220 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: I mean, he makes this discovery, you know, when he's 221 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: in his twenties, he's twenty five years old, and it's 222 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: really a pretty earth shattering, identity shattering discovery, and he 223 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: is reluctant to think of it as trauma. And part 224 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: of that is, you know, as you say, he comes 225 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: from you know, his grandparents on his mother's side were 226 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: Holocaust survivors, and that's trauma. You know, that's trauma, and 227 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: genocide is trauma, and gun violence is trauma. And the 228 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: war that was going on at the time that this 229 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: discovery happened, you know, in Iraq was a trauma. And 230 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: so the idea that you know, we talk about like 231 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: big T trauma and little T trauma, but it seems 232 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: to me that it's a hallmark of any kind of trauma. 233 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: And you know, and I myself am suspicious of, you know, 234 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: like easily labeling. You know, I have a hangnail, that's 235 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: a trauma, you know. But Adam is so articulate about 236 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: the way in which he pushed away the idea that 237 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: this was a trauma because he was skeptical of the 238 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: very idea, and that minimizing is something that I see 239 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: a lot. 240 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, listen, I think what you're saying is super important. 241 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 3: I mean, let's start with his family history. And I 242 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 3: think everything we were talking about so far is about 243 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 3: the legacy of trauma, right, even the defense mechanism, all 244 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 3: the defenses that we're talking about are somehow related to 245 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 3: the previous generations trauma into what you learn from your ancestors, 246 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 3: for your mother, from your grandmother. All of that. We 247 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 3: cannot ignore that when you experience something and I have 248 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 3: to say, I hear it all the time from people 249 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 3: and I'm sure, I'm sure everybody who listens to that 250 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 3: here that all the time, that there is something about, 251 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 3: especially people that grew up with what we call vig 252 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 3: T trauma or really really intense trauma like persecution like 253 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 3: nine eleven and all of those everything you mentioned, We 254 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 3: then anything nothing else seems like a traumatic event. It 255 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 3: all feels And I think what I see, especially in 256 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 3: people who are second generation, is the ambivalence about about 257 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 3: defining anything as trauma. Now, I agree with you that 258 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 3: there is these days, there is a real misuse of 259 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 3: the word trauma. Everything is trauma, Everything is small is trauma. 260 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 3: Everything that happens to us. The truth is, the definition 261 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 3: of trauma is related to something that shakens our our system. 262 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 3: And when I talk about system, I mean also the body, 263 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 3: of course, because the trauma is directly related to our bodies, 264 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 3: so we can measure it even in some ways. I 265 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 3: think that what you're talking about is related to also 266 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 3: to survival fuild. You know that the second generation of 267 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 3: people that had parents who have been traumatized, and I 268 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 3: think about even children that had parents who have been 269 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 3: abused and who talk about how hard their childhood was 270 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 3: how how difficult it was, how how much they didn't 271 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 3: have parents, or they were emotionally, emotionally or physically abused. 272 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 3: They they feel guilty to experience anything as traumatic everything, 273 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 3: and they feel that they're spoiled, that they're entitled, that 274 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 3: they're you know, that that what they're going through is 275 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 3: not painful comparing to what other people go through, right. 276 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 3: And I see that as especially in second generation, as 277 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 3: part of a larger picture of survivor guilt that is 278 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 3: also passed down by the way from generation to generation. 279 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 3: You see that when the parents, when the grandparents are survivors, 280 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 3: the parents have serious survivor guilt that passes to their children. 281 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: That's so interesting because in Adam's case, he buries it 282 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: his word, he buries it. There was a guest in 283 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: a recent season of this podcast who had a just 284 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: an absolutely fantastic line about secrets. You know, there's there's 285 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: so many wonderful quotes about secrets, but this one from 286 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: this guest was I thought extraordinary, which was when you 287 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: bury a secret, you bury it alive. And so Adam 288 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 1: buries the secret. He doesn't tell anyone, he tries to 289 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:58,479 Speaker 1: push it away, and he has on the surface of things, 290 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 1: A very successful adult life. 291 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 3: Right. 292 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 1: He's a speech writer for Barack Obama. You know, during 293 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: his first presidential campaign. He's running miles every day. He 294 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: has a girlfriend, he has a group of other young 295 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 1: speech writers who he hangs out with. He tells no 296 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: one and one of the things that he says in 297 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: the episode is you can only succeed at that for 298 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:24,360 Speaker 1: so long, h. 299 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 3: Which is of course true. And you know, Danny, I 300 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 3: think which was so complex for me when I listened 301 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 3: to this. What I thought was so really complex is 302 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 3: the right word? Was there realization that not only something 303 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 3: was hidden from Adam, but that in fact he was 304 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 3: the secret hear himself. And I think that's related to 305 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 3: what you're saying, because the way I listen to it 306 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 3: is that, to some degree, when he finds out the secret, 307 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 3: it is that moment when he starts talking that he 308 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 3: breaks the collusion and changes his role from being the 309 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 3: secret baby to having a subjective experience an agency. He's 310 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 3: turning passive into acting. So you hear ow I listen 311 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 3: to it. I listened to everything you're saying about how 312 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 3: he buries the secret as alive as bearing himself alive 313 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 3: in a sense that he's the secret, and he keeps 314 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 3: himself as the secret. 315 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 1: So he's burying himself. Yeah, that's so powerful. 316 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 3: He is not a wanted baby, right, He's not a 317 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 3: wanted baby, but he's when you listen to that story, 318 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 3: it sounds like he's an object that is used to 319 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 3: enlife in the parents, to create what his biological father 320 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 3: calls the mystery and the erotic. And so therefore I 321 00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 3: think that until he claims his voice story, until he 322 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 3: starts talking, he doesn't have a voice, he doesn't have 323 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 3: a subjectivity, he doesn't have a life. He still remains 324 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 3: an object. And you see it to me, which was 325 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 3: fascinating and moving about these stories that you see the 326 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:23,719 Speaker 3: healing process of moving from participating in keeping himself as 327 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 3: an object when he doesn't talk, to becoming a human 328 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 3: to becoming somebody who is who has subjectivity, has a voice, 329 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 3: and has a life. 330 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really extraordinary. I mean there's so many different 331 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: layers of coming out, you know, of emerging from keeping 332 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: this secret first keeping it from everyone, then finally, because 333 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: it can't be contained because it's so huge, because it 334 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: really is impacting everything about his life, he finally does 335 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: tell one person. He tells his girlfriend, and his girlfriend 336 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 1: urges him or his ex girlfriend because he's trying to 337 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 1: win her back, because one of the reasons why they 338 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: break up is because he's not himself. He's not fully 339 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: able to be a full blown human in terms of 340 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: intimacy and love and being known. And his girlfriend urges 341 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: him to go to therapy, and at some point he 342 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: talks about multiple therapists over the course of a number 343 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: of years wondering with him about how much he needs 344 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: to reveal. You know, there's something that really frightens him. 345 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: There's a relationship with his dad, who he adores, who 346 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: he learns is not his biological father, and he doesn't 347 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: think his father knows. And I mean, one of the 348 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: things that was so moving to me is that a 349 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,719 Speaker 1: decade goes by where he's told people and he's in 350 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 1: therapy about it, and he's processing it to some degree, 351 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 1: but not to the whole degree because in order to 352 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: do that, he has to talk to his dad, and 353 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: he's so afraid to. I mean, I guess I'm wondering 354 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: about the you know, the role of I mean, first, 355 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: there's shame, right first, there's confusion, you know, then there's shame, 356 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: and the shame layer starts to largely kind of get 357 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: dealt with. But then there's this fear that he's just 358 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: worried that he's going to hurt his father, and that 359 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: he himself is going to be terribly hurt by his 360 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 1: father's reaction. 361 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 3: And lose his father. Right, there's a fear of something's 362 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 3: going to fall apart or something is going to happen. 363 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 3: You know, when I listened to that part, it's so 364 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 3: emotional that I started crying because I felt like, wow, 365 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 3: that's a really profound moment. You have to tell your father, 366 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 3: but there is a huge fear and risk that something 367 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 3: will change with him, and you don't want it to change. 368 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 3: And maybe you will hurt him, maybe you will shame him. 369 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 3: Maybe Right, there's all my fantasies that maybe maybe he 370 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 3: would love you in the same way. 371 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: He is so eloquent about it because he talks about 372 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,199 Speaker 1: you know, his father is a really big hearted and 373 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: kind and wonderful man, and he's been a wonderful father. 374 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: And Adam knows that his father will try his damnedest 375 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 1: to absorb this, to take it in, to assure him 376 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 1: that nothing changes. But Adam says he's afraid that he'll 377 00:25:55,200 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: see something, that there'll be some slight, subtle change in 378 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: the way that his father a glance or his tone 379 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: of voice or something, and he'll know. No one else 380 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 1: will know, but he'll know that it has mattered, that 381 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 1: it mattered. And that's not what happens. What happens is 382 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: beautiful and profound. And one thing that he does say 383 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: after he finally has put down the burden, you know, 384 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: when we talk about secrets, we talk about the weight 385 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 1: of secrets, the burden of secrets, the heaviness of secrets 386 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: literally like a like a weight that we carry. And 387 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 1: he he says in the episode, my only regret is 388 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: that I hadn't talked to him sooner. It was unnecessary, 389 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: needless heartache for all those years. 390 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he carried all of that burdens alone, and 391 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 3: and all the fears that we you and I expressed 392 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 3: that what was the fear? What did he imagine? Imagine? 393 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 3: That is for a decade, all of that is there, 394 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 3: that those speculations of what would have happened, what would 395 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 3: happen if I if my father knows And that's that's 396 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 3: the lots to carry. 397 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, and what does it do to finally put that 398 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 1: burden down. A place that we go in the episode 399 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: is that I mean Adam describes he uses the word groundedness, 400 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 1: and you know, before his discovery, you know, in all 401 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: of the years until he was twenty five years old, 402 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: he would have considered himself fairly grounded, but he was 403 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: actually on shakier ground than he knew because there was 404 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: this fault line, there was this secret, and then for 405 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: all those years that he then carried that secret alone, 406 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: the ground was extremely shaky beneath him. And even when 407 00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: he began to heal and he started to process it 408 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 1: and even felt probably to some degree that he was 409 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: putting it behind him, there was this huge way in 410 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: which he wasn't doing that. Yet. 411 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 3: There is something there that we learn, and I'm not 412 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 3: going to say it right at the end, that he 413 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,719 Speaker 3: really teaches us that in fact, his ground was pretty 414 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 3: solid and he was the right to experience his life 415 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 3: as solid. Then I wonder what he would say about 416 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 3: that interpretation. He was not a wanted baby. But the 417 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 3: truth is that it does feel like he had two 418 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 3: parents who really were invested in him, and it sounds 419 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 3: like especially his father was very solid and his mother. 420 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 3: It sounds like, from what he's telling, had more mental 421 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 3: health issues and more struggles, which is not necessarily only 422 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 3: related to him. But it sounds like obviously that impacted 423 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 3: his life. But I would say that it's about the 424 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 3: fact that nothing actually changed. You know, after he did 425 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 3: the whole process and went back to the beginning, his 426 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 3: perception at the end was similar to the perception before 427 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 3: he knew that he knew the secret. Do you do 428 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 3: you agree with that? 429 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: I do? And what keeps on running through my mind 430 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: is that And I hope this doesn't sound sort of 431 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: sentimental and hokey, but is that those who love us 432 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: save us. And he was loved. He was loved by 433 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: four grandparents who adored him, and by two parents who 434 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: adored him. And that love that is the is the 435 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: ground and was real. You know, it wasn't It wasn't 436 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: a performance, and it wasn't it wasn't complicated. You know, 437 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: the story beneath all of it was complicated, but the 438 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: love was uncomplicated. 439 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 3: I really agree with you. I really agree with you, 440 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 3: and I think about love in a more multilayered way. 441 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 3: That love is not just the feeling, is the act 442 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 3: and it's related to the attachment that something does feel 443 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 3: to some degree secure. 444 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the nurturance which is what allows us to 445 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: grow and to you know, to bloom and to blossom 446 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 1: and to become ourselves. And and Adam says something very 447 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: I think universally true towards the end of the episode, 448 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: and I love your take on this, which is he says, 449 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: I'm not just a product of the family story that 450 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: I want to be part of. And he says, you know, 451 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: it's the good, the bad, the ugly, the heroic, the shameful, 452 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: and that that is extraordinarily empowering. And you know, I 453 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: think when we talk about family secrets and we talk 454 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: about emotional inheritance, and you know, we began this conversation 455 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: by my asking you I mean or offering sort of 456 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: my take about you know, my childhood was great. You know, 457 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: that wasn't the whole story. And yet somehow, if we're 458 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: able to wrap our arms around the whole story and 459 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: not just the shiny bits, that's when, perhaps, you know, 460 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: when we come to really know ourselves and feel whole. 461 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 3: I love that, you know, because I think that what 462 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 3: you're describing is what allows us to live a fuller 463 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 3: and more integrated life where we have everything you know, 464 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 3: we have they said, the full catastrophe, where we don't 465 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 3: have to keep secrets from ourselves, but we don't have 466 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 3: to walk around things that we don't have to disconnect 467 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 3: one part of ourselves. That bring us back to the 468 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 3: association and repression and all the defenses, the very very 469 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 3: very you know, rigid defenses we have in order to 470 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 3: not feel that live a part of us outside. And 471 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 3: so I think what you're describing is really the ability 472 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 3: to live a full life that is not compromised and 473 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 3: be able to tolerate not only what is good, but 474 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 3: also the difficult, the pain that being able to sit 475 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 3: with again, you know, when we said the full catastrophe, 476 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 3: which means everything that life offers us without being afraid 477 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 3: to fall apart if we find out or if we 478 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 3: experience something that is outside of what we can tolerate. 479 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: I think that's a beautiful place to wrap up. I 480 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: have so loved exploring all this with you and so 481 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: appreciate your insights and your mind. And thanks, Gully, thank you. 482 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 3: I love this conversation and I also really love this episode, 483 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 3: Adam's episode, So thank you for inviting me to talk 484 00:32:49,760 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 3: to you. 485 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 486 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.