1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 2: One time billionaire in crypto whiz Sam Bankman Freed was 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 2: sentenced to twenty five years in prison for stealing eight 4 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 2: billion dollars from customers of his now bankrupt FTX cryptocurrency exchange. 5 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,159 Speaker 2: The thirty two year old told Judge Lewis Kaplan and 6 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 2: his sentencing on Thursday that he was sorry about what 7 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 2: happened at every stage, but the judge wasn't buying it, 8 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 2: saying Bankman Freed was not truly remorseful and that he 9 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 2: perjured himself when he testified. I've never seen a performance 10 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 2: quite like that, Kaplan said. The judge also ordered him 11 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 2: to forfeit eleven billion dollars. Joining me is Bloomberg legal 12 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 2: reporter Ava Benny Morrison, who was in the courtroom for 13 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 2: the sentencing. Ava set the scene. 14 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 3: For us, so it was packed courtroom. Sam's parents with 15 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 3: a Joe and Barbara, who've been there for most of 16 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 3: his court appearances. They were sitting together in the front row. 17 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 3: There was also a victim of FCX. He gave statement 18 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 3: to the court on path of many other victims who 19 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 3: had lost money when sex collapsed at the end of 20 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 3: November twenty twenty two. Other than that there was a 21 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 3: lot of press there. Sam was wearing a beij prison 22 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 3: issued uniform. He looked a lot slimmid than he used to, 23 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 3: having spent the past seven or eight months in prison 24 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 3: in Brooklyn. He didn't really look back at his parents 25 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 3: or engage with anyone in the public gallery. 26 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 2: Bankman Freed's attorney, Mark Mucasey wrote this sort of impassioned 27 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 2: plea for leniency, saying that Bankman for you should serve 28 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 2: no more than six and a half years in prison. 29 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 2: What was Mucasey's argument like at the sentencing. 30 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 3: It was definitely impassioned. You could hear a pin drop 31 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 3: in the courtroom when he was talking to the judge 32 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 3: and really trying to paint a picture of a man 33 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 3: who was largely misunderstood but had been painted as a villain, 34 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,639 Speaker 3: as a financial serial killer over the past or almost 35 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 3: two years. He provided the court a bit of an 36 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 3: insight into the struggles that Sam Bang mcfreed has faced 37 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 3: throughout his life. That he's always been especially awkward, he 38 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 3: struggled to fit in, faced bouts of depression. Referred to 39 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 3: a journal entry he made once saying that he doesn't 40 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 3: feel happiness or pleasure at all and feels like that 41 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 3: there is a whole in his brain. He even referred 42 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 3: to comments that Sam's own mother made, saying that there 43 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 3: is a terrific sadness at her son's core. Mckazy said 44 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 3: that he found that quite crushing and really sort of 45 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 3: jarred with the perception that we've got of Sam Bankman 46 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 3: free from the government as this very calculated, cunning forwards 47 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 3: who went out to steal millions of dollars from customers 48 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 3: and enriched himself and expand his business empire. And a 49 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 3: couple of points during mccazy's address, Sam Bankman fried appeared 50 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 3: to become a little bit emotional. He was looking down 51 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 3: at the table, fidgeting. At one point he wiped his 52 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 3: nose and he was blinking quite a lot when mccazy 53 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 3: was talking about his parents and talking about Sam's brother 54 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 3: and talking about some of the struggles that he had 55 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,239 Speaker 3: in his life to fit in. 56 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 2: And the prosecutors had argued for a forty to fifty 57 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:12,359 Speaker 2: year prison sentence. 58 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 3: Yes, so right after mccazy finished about impassioned address, Nick Rose, 59 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 3: one of the assistant US attorneys stood up and counted 60 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 3: that straight out of the gate. He said that Sam 61 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 3: Bankman Free knew what he was doing was wrong. He 62 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 3: was focused and obsessed with power and influence. He gave 63 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 3: a lot of money to different political parties because he 64 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 3: wanted to be influential. He wanted to grow his business empire, 65 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 3: and he was willing to use other people's money to 66 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 3: do it. So there were definitely two different sides of 67 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 3: Sam Bankman Free that were portrayed in the courtroom. 68 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 2: And then Bankman Freed spoke for about twenty minutes tell 69 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: us how he came across. 70 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 3: He started by talking about how he had let down 71 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 3: the people that he built FTX with and had let 72 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 3: down the customers. He said that you know, today isn't 73 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 3: about him and the hype of the children he may 74 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 3: not be able to have because he's in prison in 75 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 3: the future, but this was about the customers who had 76 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 3: lost a lot of money. Then he circled back to 77 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 3: a lot of the arguments that he has made in 78 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 3: the past about customers being able to recover their money. 79 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 3: He doubled down on claims that there was always enough 80 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 3: money to repay creditors and STX could have kept going, 81 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 3: but was allowed to yes, alimeter reservice. This the hedge 82 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 3: fund would have folded, but FTX would have been okay 83 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 3: and customers would have been okay as well. He also 84 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 3: took a few gigs at the bankruptcy estate and the 85 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,679 Speaker 3: new administrator of FTX. This was an argument that didn't 86 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 3: go well during his testimony and sort of left the 87 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 3: judge at least feeling like he wasn't showing any remorse. 88 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 3: He was admitting that, yes, he had made mistakes, he'd 89 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 3: made a bad bet, but he wasn't ready to admit 90 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 3: to Romdoy. 91 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 2: Reading what the judge said in sentencing him, it sounded 92 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 2: very stern and just unrelenting. 93 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 3: Yes, Judge Kaplan listened to everything Sam had said and 94 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 3: that he's defensili had said, but in the end he 95 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 3: was pretty stern in his characterization at Sam. He said 96 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 3: that he had committed some various serious crimes here and 97 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 3: there was a real risk that he could offend again. Yes, 98 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 3: he was brilliant, and he was intelligent, and he had 99 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 3: a great mathematical mind, but on the flip side, that 100 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 3: also put him a danger of reoffending again because if 101 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 3: something appeared to be a good bet and there was 102 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 3: a likelihood that it might succeed. Then that motivated him 103 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 3: and it encouraged him to do certain things. So Judge 104 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 3: Kaplan said that he wanted to hand down a sentence 105 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 3: that would potentially prevent him from doing that again for 106 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 3: a very long time and deter others from committing similar crimes. 107 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 2: So how did Bankman Fried react when he heard twenty 108 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 2: five years? 109 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 3: He didn't react at all. He was standing up between 110 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 3: his lawyers at the table. He had his hands clasped 111 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 3: in front of him, and he was either gazing down 112 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 3: at the table or just looking towards the judge. You 113 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 3: could see as the judge was handing down the sentence 114 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 3: and lining up different years and periods with the different 115 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 3: offenses that Sam seemed to be trying to do the 116 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 3: calculations in his head. His eyes were dining around the room. 117 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 3: But in the end, when Judge Kaplan said that the 118 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 3: total sentence was three hundred months, Sam certainly didn't seem surprised. 119 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 3: I think he had been bracing himself for this moment 120 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 3: for a very very long time, and to him, twenty 121 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 3: years is the same as forty years. 122 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 2: Quite a day in court, Thanks for taking us inside 123 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 2: the courtroom. EVA. That's Bloomberg Legal reporter Ava Benny Morrison. 124 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 2: Joining me now to analyze the sentence is former federal 125 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 2: prosecutor Michael Weinstein, a partner at Cole Shots twenty five years. 126 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 2: Was this a harsh sentence, a fair sentence? How would 127 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 2: you characterize it? 128 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 4: Well, it's pretty much down the middle. It's a pretty 129 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 4: even sentence based upon the amount of loss here, based 130 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 4: upon the judge's conclusion that he misled the jury during 131 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 4: his testimony and the type of impact he had on victims. 132 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 2: So we talked about the risks of SBF testifying as 133 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 2: far as the jury verdict, but not the risks as 134 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 2: far as the sentencing, and his testimony came back to 135 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 2: haunt him. Judge Kaplan increased the sentence in guidelines range 136 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 2: after finding that SBF had perjured himself at his trial, 137 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 2: and he said when he wasn't outright lying, he was 138 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 2: often evasive, hair splitting, dodging questions. I've never seen a 139 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: performance quite like that. 140 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 4: Yes, that's pretty remarkable for a federal judge to say 141 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 4: that about a defense if you're testify, To put it bluntly, 142 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 4: you know, his testimony was a calamity during the trial, 143 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 4: and it's a catastrophe after trial and for sentencing. 144 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 2: He found that SBF had committed witness tampering before he 145 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,559 Speaker 2: was remanded into custody when he communicated with the former 146 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 2: FTX General Council. Is that a stretch? It always seemed 147 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 2: to me like there was room for different interpretations there. 148 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 4: Well, look, if you're a defense attorney, you want to 149 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 4: argue that there was no witness tampering and that you know, 150 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 4: what he did doesn't qualify under the federal statutes for such. 151 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 4: But as a prosecutor and as a judge, when a 152 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 4: defendant does reach out for or send signals out to 153 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 4: witnesses or potential witnesses, that's very concerning. And I think 154 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 4: that's how the judge viewed it, is that Sam Bankman 155 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 4: Free just overstepped the line in trying to communicate with 156 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 4: or sending signals to witnesses. And that's a no no, 157 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 4: especially in the judge who's this experience and have seen 158 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 4: those things go very badly. 159 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 2: Bank Matfreed's defense attorney made this impassioned plea for a 160 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 2: lenient sentence, but the judge didn't buy any of his reasons, 161 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 2: including his contention that the victims would be repaid in 162 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 2: the bankruptcy. 163 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 4: I think that the judge concluded essentially the thought that 164 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 4: there was a victimless crime, which is what the defense 165 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 4: is trying to argue, was both misleading, flawed, and speculative. 166 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 4: And so I think the defense did the best they 167 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 4: could with the hand that they were dealt. And certainly 168 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 4: the defense lawyer, very talented, very eloquent, and very experienced 169 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 4: on his feet, just didn't have the facts and didn't 170 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 4: have the client that could really be appealable to this judge. 171 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 4: And this judge has been sitting for a very long time, 172 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 4: I think twenty nine or thirty years, so he's seen 173 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 4: enough and heard enough and observed enough to be able 174 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 4: to cut through a lawyer's arguments, as good as they 175 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 4: may be, and really get to the heart of the issue, 176 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 4: which is what he did here, and that's why he 177 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 4: put him away for twenty five years. 178 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 2: So SBF said in his statement to the judge, I'm 179 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 2: sorry about what happened at every stage. It haunts me 180 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 2: every day. But the judge said that he lacked real remorse. 181 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 2: If SBF had said more, could that have. 182 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 4: Hurt his appeal it potentially could I think that SBF 183 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 4: still hasn't come to grips with what he did and 184 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 4: how he did it. The judge certainly doesn't think that 185 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 4: he has taken full responsibility for his actions. And you 186 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 4: know SBF is going to have a long time to 187 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 4: reflect upon that. 188 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 2: He and said he intends to appeal the sentence and 189 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: the conviction. What would be the grounds for appealing the sentence? 190 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 2: Is it unusual to see a sentence like that knocked down? 191 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 4: It is if the calculation, for example, that the judge 192 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 4: used was inaccurate, or if the case law or the 193 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 4: cases or the factual provisions and basis that the judge 194 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 4: used was inaccurate, or for example, there was something in 195 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 4: the pre sentence report which was inaccurate. All of those 196 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 4: things are reasons why you would challenge a sentence. But 197 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 4: obviously you're dealing with a very experienced judge, You're dealing 198 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 4: with a high profile case, so in all likelihood a 199 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 4: challenge of the sentence is likely to not be successful. 200 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 2: How much of this sentence was about setting an example 201 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 2: and warning about crypto and the financial markets. 202 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 4: Look, I mean, anytime you have a situation like this 203 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 4: with such high publicity, you have to step back and say, 204 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 4: the prosecutor brought this case not only because a crime occurred, 205 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 4: but also brought the case to send a signal to 206 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 4: the crypto industry because government regulators have become very concern 207 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 4: that it's just the wild West, and they had to 208 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 4: reind it into a certain degree. And I think by extension, 209 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 4: the judge felt as though he had some obligation as 210 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 4: well to clarify that even in the wild West of crypto, 211 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 4: there are boundaries. There are guardrails that you cannot cross, 212 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 4: and fraud is one of them. And as a result 213 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 4: of that, that's why he sentenced them to what he did. 214 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 2: The judge made a lot of rulings that limited bankmin 215 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 2: Freed's defense, for example, preventing expert witnesses from testifying. I 216 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 2: assume that that's going to be part of the appeal 217 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 2: if it is. How difficult is it to get a 218 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 2: reversal based on those kinds of decisions by a trial judge. 219 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,439 Speaker 4: So the child judge is going to have broad discretion 220 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 4: and the appellate court is going to look at whether 221 00:11:55,920 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 4: or not what he did was so manifestly improper it 222 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 4: would have had some material impact on the trial, and 223 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 4: those are two very high burden, very high hurdles to 224 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 4: crossover to have the conviction overthrown. I just don't see 225 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 4: it happening. You have very able counsel on both sides, 226 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 4: both on the government side and on the defense side, 227 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 4: pre trial related to those motions, and you have a 228 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 4: judge who obviously seriously and thoughtfully considered those arguments and 229 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 4: then made the decisions he did. So I think the 230 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 4: uppeal generally is an uphill battle. 231 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 2: Finally, so you have the three cooperators who turned against 232 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 2: SBF and pleaded guilty to their roles and testified. They 233 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 2: are coming up for sentencing now looking at his twenty 234 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 2: five year sentence, is it likely that they'll get a 235 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 2: stiff sentence or could they walk away without any prison time? 236 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 4: So I don't foresee them walking away without some sentence. 237 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 4: They certainly would not get decades in prison as Sam 238 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 4: Bateman free did. I think Number one, they came out 239 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 4: early and agreed to fleet guilty. Number two, they gave 240 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 4: cooperating information and cooperated and testimony. And number three they 241 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 4: provided essentially the blueprint for what occurred, and that gave 242 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 4: the government the ability to go after Sam Bankman freed 243 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 4: in the trial and triangulate against him so that he 244 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 4: was really boxed in at that point. He really was, 245 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 4: you know, the eight hundred pound gorilla that they needed, 246 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 4: and they convicted and they want to put in jail. 247 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 4: The others are equally important, just not as important, and 248 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 4: they will have a harsh sentence, but it's certainly not 249 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 4: going to be anywhere close to what he just got. 250 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 2: It's going to be very interesting to see what Judge 251 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 2: Caplan sentences them to. Thanks so much, Michael. That's Michael 252 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 2: Weinstein of Coal Shots. Coming up next, the Supreme Court 253 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 2: appears likely to back access to the abortion pill. I'm 254 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 2: June Grasso and you're listening to Bloomberg. This week, the 255 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 2: Supreme Court took up the divisive issue of abortion for 256 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 2: the first time since overturning the constitutional right to abortion 257 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,479 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two. But even most of the conservative 258 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 2: jo justices who voted to overturn Roe v. Wade appeared 259 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 2: wary of the legal attack on MiFi pristone, a drug 260 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 2: now used in more than half of the country's abortions. 261 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 2: Justices from across the ideological spectrum were skeptical that the 262 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 2: anti abortion doctors challenging the FDA's loosening of regulations from 263 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 2: if a Pristone had standing or suffered the direct harm 264 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 2: needed for them to bring the lawsuit. Here are Justices Katanji, 265 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 2: Brown Jackson, and Brett Kevanaugh. 266 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 5: I mean, it makes perfect sense for the individual doctors 267 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 5: to seek an exemption, but as I understand it, they 268 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 5: already had that, and so what they're asking for here 269 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 5: is that in order to prevent them from possibly ever 270 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 5: having to do these kinds of procedures, everyone else should 271 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 5: be prevented from getting access to this medication. 272 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 6: Just to confirm understanding issue, under federal law, no doctors 273 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 6: can be forced against their consciences to perform or assist 274 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 6: in an abortion. 275 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 2: Correct joining me is reproductive rights expert Mary Ziegler, a 276 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 2: professor at the UC Davis School of Law. Mary, just 277 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 2: about everyone who listened to the oral arguments is of 278 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 2: the opinion that a majority of the justices will turn 279 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 2: away this challenge to MITHI pristone, is that your opinion 280 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 2: as well? 281 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. I think that it seemed that most 282 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: of the justices were convinced that the plaintiffs in the 283 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: case didn't outstanding. 284 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 2: Before we talk about standing, tell us about the merits argument. 285 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 2: The anti abortion doctors were making. 286 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: The argument at least that the alliance for hippocratic medicine 287 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: the plaintiffs wanted to make was twofold right one, that 288 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: the FDA didn't have the authority either to approve mith 289 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: Cerystone back in two thousand or to lift subsequent restrictions 290 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: on the drugs in twenty sixteen or twenty twenty one, 291 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: the argument being that the FDA hadn't been careful enough 292 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: with the science to make all of those decisions. And 293 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: there was a related argument on the twenty twenty one changes, 294 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: which are what permitted abortion for reasons of telehealth, their 295 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: activists argued that the federal Comstock Act, which is in 296 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: nineteenth century obscenity statute, prohibited the mailing of abortion related items. 297 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: So the SEA couldn't have had the authority to approve 298 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: telehealth because doing sowhat of violated federal law. So those 299 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: were a lot of the arguments that Inferior the Court 300 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: could consider. We don't imagine they'll be in a majority 301 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: opinion because we think the plaintiffs will likely be held 302 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: not to have standing. But some of those arguments seem 303 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: to capture the interests of some of the conservative justices 304 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: for down the road. 305 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 2: Abortion opponents have looked at the Comstock Act as a 306 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 2: possible way to stop medication abortions. Do you think that 307 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 2: that is a fight that will happen down the road 308 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 2: in right? 309 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: I mean, so in this case, you know, if these 310 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: plaintiffs don't have standing other plaintiffs, could we know that 311 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: at least on the Comstock Act front, that both Justices 312 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,199 Speaker 1: Thomas and Aldo signaled some interest in the idea that 313 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 1: the Comstock Act bans mailing abortion pills and maybe other 314 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 1: abortion related items as well. So I think, you know, 315 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: whatever comes out of this case may not be a 316 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 1: final resolution. 317 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 2: So, as you said, the justice is from across the 318 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 2: eyedelogical spectrum expressed doubt that the doctors and the organizations 319 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 2: had standing to try to overturn the FDA changes. What 320 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 2: do you think was the heart of that argument. 321 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: The plaintiff's argument essentially was a speculative argument. Right, So 322 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: they said, there are complications that inevitably ensue when people 323 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: take MITHI pristone, and some percentage of those people with 324 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,719 Speaker 1: complications will end up in the emergency room. And then 325 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 1: they said, it's reasonable to assume that some of those 326 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: patients might end up in our emergency rooms and it 327 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: may be the case that we have to treat them, 328 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: and then that may cause us a conscience based injury. 329 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: The problem with that, according to many of the justices, 330 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: was one, none of that may happen. This is all 331 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: just possibilities, and two that it seemed that there was 332 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: a mismatch. Is Justice Katanji Brown Jackson put it between 333 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: the remedy the plaintiffs were seeking and the harm they suffered. 334 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: She and Justice Scorsich asked, you know, if the problem 335 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: here is that doctors we have to act against their conscience, 336 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: why can't those doctors just get a conscience based objection. 337 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: Why do they have to go all the way to 338 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: taking a drug potentially off the market for all Americans. 339 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 1: So there were clearly problems withstanding from the beginning, and 340 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: that's why we saw it being such a focal point 341 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: at the argument. 342 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: So Justice Brett Kavanaugh asked only one question in the 343 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 2: ninety minute argument. If he said, just to confirm on 344 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 2: the standing issue, under federal law, no doctors can be 345 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 2: forced against their consciences to perform or assist in an abortion. Correct? 346 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 2: He asked thislictitor general. It's unusual for a justice to 347 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 2: ask only one question during these long oral arguments. Do 348 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 2: you think he was trying to deflect attention away from 349 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 2: himself when there's been so much discussion of his concurrence 350 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 2: in the Dobbs case. 351 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: And I think Kavinaugh just thought this was an easy case. 352 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:06,959 Speaker 1: I mean, I think there was a signal that, you know, 353 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: these doctors, if they had conscience based harms, they weren't 354 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: going to be forced to do anything they didn't want 355 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 1: to do because they already had protections under federal law. 356 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: And that that made the kinds of injury they were 357 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: talking about even more speculative. I don't think, you know, 358 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 1: a lot of the justices seemed to think this was 359 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: an easy case, and I think Kavanaugh may have been 360 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 1: more unplugged from the argument for that reason. 361 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 2: Now, there was also a claim. We we talked about 362 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 2: the claims of the doctors, the organizational standing, and just 363 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 2: as Elena Kagan said, you need a person who's your person, 364 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 2: did the organizational standing claim fall even worse than the 365 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 2: claim of the doctors? 366 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 1: I think so? I mean, I think even Justice Thomas 367 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: seemed doubtful about the organizational standing claim, suggesting that it 368 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: just proved way too much. 369 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 7: So. 370 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 1: The argument that the organization had made was that it 371 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 1: was expanding resources and time to fight Micha christoone that 372 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: it would have liked to use on other pro life work. 373 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: And several of the justices, again including Justice Thomas, who 374 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: you would think would have been one of the most 375 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: sympathetic to the point, has said, well, if that's true, 376 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: then coult in any social movement group bring any lawsuit 377 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 1: and say simply the fact that the lawsuit was an 378 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: expensive resources they wouldn't otherwise need to bring, and that 379 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: gives them standing. So there was arguably even more skepticism 380 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 1: of that claim than the ones involving the doctors. 381 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 2: Justice Gors really tore into the fact that a nationwide 382 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 2: injunction was issued here. Let's listen to what he said. 383 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 8: We've had. One might call it a rash of universal 384 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 8: injunctions or vacatures in this case seems like a prime 385 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 8: example of turning what could be a small lawsuit into 386 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 8: a nationwide legislative assembly on an FDA rule or any 387 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 8: other federal government action. 388 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 2: The justices have complained before about out these nationwide injunctions, 389 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 2: but yet they don't do anything about them. Might they 390 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 2: in this case? 391 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: It's possible, I mean, clearly Justice Gorsich would like that 392 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: to end. You know, I think there was sort of 393 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: a soapbox moment where this is been a pet peeve 394 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 1: of his, and he took an opportunity to hold this 395 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 1: case up as an example of what's wrong with universal injunctions. 396 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's going to be too far 397 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: afield from the issues at hand. Given that this ruling 398 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: is likely to center on standing, Justice Gorsich may write 399 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: separately to complain about universal injunctions. I don't know if 400 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: the majority is going to do anything in this case. 401 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: I'd be sort of surprised if they did so. 402 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 2: Mary, If, as everyone thinks, they take the off ramp 403 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 2: and rule there's no standing here, I mean, does that 404 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 2: leave the question open for other groups to try to 405 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 2: challenge if a pristone. 406 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: It potentially does. 407 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 8: So. 408 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 1: We know that in the trial court several conservative states 409 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,959 Speaker 1: have sought to intervene. The US Supreme Court allowed this 410 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: case to proceed with about joining those cases or those 411 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: parties to the present matter, but they are before Judge Kasmeric. 412 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: If they don't end up having standing, it's not hard 413 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,719 Speaker 1: to imagine that other conservatives will try to assert it. 414 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: General Prelogger alluded to the possibility that she thought those 415 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: other parties don't have standing either, and that was a 416 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: point Justice Alito wanted to make a big deal about, 417 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: essentially to say, well, if these people don't have standing 418 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: and nobody is standing, isn't that a problem. But I 419 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: don't think we know at this point that support would 420 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: rule out other people potentially having standing. 421 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 2: The anti abortion doctors brought this case before a sympathetic, 422 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 2: very conservative Texas judge, Trump appointing Matthew Kismeric, and that 423 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 2: meant the appeal went to the most conservative circuit court 424 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 2: in the country. Do you think that the new policy 425 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 2: to curb judge shopping might have stopped this case from 426 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 2: being brought before Kasmeric? 427 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: It's interesting. I don't know. I mean, I would hope 428 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: we have to see I think how those changes play 429 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 1: out in practice. That's certainly the outcome they're designed to achieve. 430 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: But I guess I would say we'll have to wait 431 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 1: and see how they work in practice. 432 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 2: And something like eight states have been stockpiling mifipristone in 433 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 2: the event that the Supreme Court ruled against the FDA. 434 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 1: Here, Yeah, they have, and they've been also start piling 435 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: in missuprostal and other drug that would be used as 436 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: an alternative. 437 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 8: You know. 438 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: So mythipristone and misterprostal are used together now in medication abortions. 439 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: Misuprostal on its own can also be used to produce 440 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 1: a medication abortion, so there's a possibility that that would 441 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: also occur. 442 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 2: The Supreme Court is going to hear another abortion case 443 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:41,360 Speaker 2: in April over Idaho's total ban on all abortions except 444 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 2: when necessary to save the mother's life. The Biden administration 445 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 2: had sued, arguing that hospitals that get Medicare funds are 446 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 2: acquired by federal law to provide emergency care, potentially including abortion, 447 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 2: no matter if there's a state law banning abortion or not. 448 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 2: Why do you think the Justice is took that case. 449 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I think it's likely they 450 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: don't agree with the Biden administration's interpretation of the law. 451 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: They've let Idaho's ban, which has some of the narrowest 452 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 1: exceptions in the nation's stand while the litigation continues. I 453 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: think They clearly think that there's something wrong with what 454 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 1: the Biden administration is doing. The interesting question is what 455 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 1: that they think that this statute simply has nothing to 456 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: do with abortion, or that they think it's likely that 457 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: the language of the statute, which refers to an unborn child, 458 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 1: actually limits in some ways what doctors, potentially even in 459 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 1: blue states, could do. So I'm not sure which of 460 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: those possibilities we'll see. 461 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 2: Will that case be more of a test of the 462 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 2: Dobbs decision than the mythipristone cases. 463 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, it definitely will, in the sense that we're much 464 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: more likely to see a ruin on the actual merits 465 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: of the question rather than a decision on standing, which 466 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, it's important that the Court still recognizes 467 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: guardrails on who can sue, but it doesn't give us 468 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: much of a into the substance of abortion law post 469 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: Dobbs in the same way that this other case could. 470 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 2: With all the controversial cases the Court has this term, 471 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 2: including those involving Donald Trump, is it surprising that the 472 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 2: justices are taking up two cases involving the divisive issue 473 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 2: of abortion in a year when abortion is basically going 474 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 2: to be on the ballot it is. 475 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I think you know, we already know that 476 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: the Court has had problems with its reputations since the Dobbs' decisions, 477 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 1: and we also know that the Court in Dobbs itself 478 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: essentially proclaimed a lack of concern about those issues, right, 479 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 1: essentially said, if people don't like this and they don't 480 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: like what we're doing, they can kind of stuff it. 481 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,239 Speaker 1: It's not our job to care about that. We're not 482 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: concerned about that. And taking two abortion cases in a term, 483 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: which is very unusual. I mean, before Dobbs, the Court 484 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: would often not take an abortion case more than you know, 485 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,959 Speaker 1: sometimes once a decade, So two in one term was 486 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 1: pretty exceptional. So I think it shows you that the 487 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: Court is not worried about the damage that's been done 488 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: to its reputation and is ready to continue full steam ahead. 489 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 2: Well, we'll find out how these cases come out by June. 490 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Mary. That's Professor Mary Ziegeler of UC 491 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 2: Davis Law School. Coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show, 492 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 2: Donald Trump's win loss record in court this week. I'm 493 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 2: June Grosso, and you're listening to Bloomberg. 494 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 5: I'm very rich. 495 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 6: I built an unbelievable company. 496 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 7: All my life I made money. 497 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 6: I made money. 498 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 2: I've always been good making money. 499 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: I have made billions of dollars in business making deals. 500 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 2: Donald Trump loves to brag about how much money he has, 501 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 2: and the former president is in fact richer than ever. 502 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 2: His social media company debuted in trading this week, and 503 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 2: the former president's net worth sword to seven point two 504 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 2: billion dollars. But when Trump faced a deadline on Monday 505 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 2: to either pay the full four hundred and fifty four 506 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 2: million dollar civil fraud verdict against him or post a 507 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 2: standard bond for one hundred and twenty percent of the 508 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 2: judgment or risk having New York State starts seizing his assets, 509 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 2: the billionaire said he didn't have the cash to cover it, 510 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 2: and claimed he'd have to sell properties at a loss 511 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 2: to raise the cash. Trump was saved from having to 512 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 2: make that decision when a New York appeals court handed 513 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 2: him a financial lifeline and cut the bond by about 514 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 2: two thirds to one hundred and seventy five million dollars. 515 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 2: So I greatly respect the decision of. 516 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: Depelloped Division that I'll posted either one hundred and seventy 517 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 1: five billion. 518 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 7: Dollars in cash, or bonds or. 519 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 6: Security or whatever it is necessary, very quickly within the 520 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 6: ten days. 521 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 2: But Trump's financial strains are far from over, as he 522 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 2: faces four criminal trials else And on Monday, a Manhattan 523 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 2: judge refused to throw the hush money case out or 524 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 2: delay the trial, further, ruling that Trump's first criminal trial 525 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 2: will start on April fifteenth. 526 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 7: I don't know how you. 527 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 2: Can have a trial. It's going on right in the 528 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 2: middle of an election. 529 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 7: Not fair. Not fair. 530 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 2: Joining me is Bloomberg legal reporter Eric Larson, who's been 531 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 2: following these cases and rulings. For the first time. Trump 532 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 2: is joining the ranks of the world's wealthiest five hundred 533 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 2: people on the Bloomberg Billionaire's Index. How did he get there? 534 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 7: Well, the short answer is that his media company, Trump's 535 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,959 Speaker 7: Media and Technology Group, is now a publicly created company 536 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 7: through a merger with a special purpose acquisition company or 537 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 7: a blank chat company. This has been a long time 538 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 7: in the banking it's really stored after when public and 539 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 7: more than double his net wealth, at least on paper. 540 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 7: He had been at around three billion dollars and now 541 00:28:57,920 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 7: he's over. 542 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 2: Seven, so Eric say, on paper. And despite this new 543 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 2: level of wealth, for him. He said he couldn't make 544 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 2: the bond. 545 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 7: So the problem for Trump in court this year so 546 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 7: far has been cash. He lost that defamation trial with 547 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 7: Eijen Carroll and had an eighty three point three million 548 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 7: dollars damage award. He had to post a bond to 549 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 7: put that on hold while he appealed. That bond was 550 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,959 Speaker 7: over ninety one million dollars. And then, of course, shortly 551 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 7: after that, he got hit with a four hundred and 552 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 7: fifty four million dollar penalty in the New York Attorney 553 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 7: General civil fraud case that she woned trial. And he 554 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 7: was facing the prospect of posting a one hundred and twenty 555 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 7: percent bond in that case in order to put that 556 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 7: verdict up hold while he appealed, and that would have 557 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 7: been a bond around five hundred and fifty million dollars. 558 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 7: He got a big reprieve though, from the New York 559 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 7: Appeals Court, which lowered the bond in that case to 560 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 7: just the one hundred and seventy five million dollars. He 561 00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 7: said he's going to pay that with cash. He means 562 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 7: to that by April fourth, to put that unfold well 563 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 7: the appeals, but before the appeals for lowered that bond. 564 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 7: He was saying in court filings that he did not 565 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,719 Speaker 7: have enough liquidity to cover both these two big bonds. 566 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 7: Bus has reserved to run his company. So, notwithstanding everything 567 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 7: happening with Trump media, he was in a position where 568 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 7: he did not have enough cash to pay that bond. 569 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 2: Just recently, so the appeals court cut his bond by 570 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 2: sixty eight percent. Do we know why they decided to 571 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 2: do that? 572 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 7: We don't. The court issued that decision branding Trump's motion 573 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 7: to lower the bond without saying why. He didn't give 574 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 7: any indication at all, so we're just kind of less wondering. Obviously, 575 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 7: there's a range of reasons why the court might have 576 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 7: taken this action, anywhere from simply having mercy on Trump 577 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 7: to let him post still a significant bond of one 578 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 7: hundred and seventy five million while challenging the verdict and 579 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 7: the penalty in that case. You know, the word no 580 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 7: specific victims in this trial, so it's not as if 581 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 7: there are individuals out there waiting and concerned about getting 582 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 7: their money back. Although the Attorney General Leticia James, she 583 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 7: did say that she did not trust that Trump would 584 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 7: pay the penalty if it were upheld on appeal that 585 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 7: he should be forced to pay the full amount of 586 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 7: the bond. 587 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 4: To put it on full. 588 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 7: Mully appeals. So, you know, the other argument that some 589 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 7: people have said is that the appeals court may be 590 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 7: somewhat skeptical of the huge Stama toward in that case, 591 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 7: and perhaps that's the reason they were comfortable lowering the bond. 592 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 7: But again that's the speculation on both sides. We don't 593 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 7: have any specific reason why it was lowered. 594 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 2: And shoot social he said on Sunday, keep your hands 595 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 2: off Trump Tower. So he continues with this relentless push 596 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 2: for donations from his supporters, well at the same time 597 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 2: bragging about how wealthy he is. 598 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 4: Right, So, Trump. 599 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 7: Has used tens of millions of dollars donate to his 600 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 7: re election campaign to cover his legal bills. Can't use 601 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 7: that to pay damage awards in these civil cases that 602 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 7: he's dealing with, but clearly his legal fees. He's facing 603 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 7: four significant criminal prosecutions on top of these two civil cases. 604 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 7: So he's really been racking up the fees and sending 605 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 7: a lot of his campaign money on that. His campaign 606 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 7: is being far outpaced and fundraising by President Joe Biden's 607 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 7: reelection campaign. So really, you know, every dollar would seem 608 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 7: to count in terms of trying to reach voters with 609 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 7: his donated campaign money, but instead Trump is using a 610 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 7: lot of it to pay legal bills, and on top 611 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 7: of that, his fundraising is falling behind. So you know, 612 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 7: you have to juxtapose the fact that we have a 613 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 7: billionaire even before Trump media started trading. Now he's estimated 614 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 7: to be worth seven billion or more or less, and 615 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 7: he's still asking individuals to send him five, ten, twenty 616 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 7: dollars to help him with his campaign, which of course 617 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 7: a lot of that will go to his legal bills. 618 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,719 Speaker 7: So it's an interesting dynamics to say. 619 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 2: Now, on Monday, he got the good news from the 620 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 2: New York Appeals Court about the bond, but bad news 621 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 2: from Manhattan Judge Wan Murshan that there would be no 622 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 2: further delays in the hush money trial and it would 623 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 2: start on April fifteenth. It was supposed to start in March. 624 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 2: Explain why there was this delay. 625 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 7: Sure, yeah, that trial was originally supposed to start in 626 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 7: March twenty fifth, and instead it was delayed for several 627 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 7: weeks and there was actually a hearing on March twenty 628 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 7: fifth instead, and that is when the judge set to 629 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 7: April fifteenth trial day. But the reason that it was 630 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 7: delayed is because there had been a late production of 631 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 7: tens of thousands of pages of documents related to the 632 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 7: case and handed over by federal prosecutors. Of course, this 633 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 7: is the Manhattan District Attorney's case, but there was a 634 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 7: related federal case in Manhattan, an investigation into Trump's lawyer 635 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 7: Michael Cohen, who, of course several years ago sweet is 636 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 7: guilty to various campaign finance crimes related to his work 637 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 7: for Trump. And of course Cohen is going to be 638 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 7: a star witness in this upcoming case, and so Trump's 639 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 7: defense wanted to get a look at everything related to 640 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 7: that federal case to see if there is anything in 641 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 7: those documents that could help them with their defense. So 642 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 7: they raised a huge fuss about this production, and even 643 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 7: the Manhattan DA that yet a thirty day delay is 644 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 7: warranted because of its being handed over. But Brad this 645 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 7: this attorney accused Trump and his lawyers of wildly exaggerating 646 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 7: the significance of these documents and by the way, requesting 647 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 7: them from the federal costcutters months and months later than 648 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,839 Speaker 7: they could have. So I think for the prosecutors. It's 649 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 7: not like the last minute delayed pastic that has been 650 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 7: sort of cooked up here, and frankly, the dudge seemed 651 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 7: to see that way too. At that hearing, the judge 652 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 7: One John really laid into Trump's lawyer Tod Blanch he's 653 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 7: a former federal prosecutor, and said, waited months. You requested 654 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 7: subpoena these documents in January. You could have s seen 655 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 7: events in June July last year. And also there has 656 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 7: been a previous hearing in the Gate just back in 657 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,720 Speaker 7: February where the Trump's defense had argued for a delay 658 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 7: of the trial but never mentioned that they were waiting 659 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 7: apparently for all these documents to be handed over. So 660 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 7: the judge was pretty annoyed and said that he sort 661 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 7: of expected better from a former federal prosecutor. 662 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 2: And Trump's lawyers were claiming that this was prosecutorial misconduct. 663 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 7: The judge disregarded this issue, said that it wasn't prostitutorial misconduct, 664 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 7: which is what the defense alleged, and in fact, he 665 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 7: shot that down so hard. The judge was really annoyed 666 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 7: that they'd even brought it up, because it's such a 667 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,359 Speaker 7: serious allegation. To make and they just kind of threw 668 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 7: it around based on this documents being handed over late. 669 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 7: The judge that you haven't provided any evidence to suggest 670 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 7: misconduct whatsoever, and yet you make this serious allegation. The 671 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,399 Speaker 7: judge was very upset by that and, as I said, 672 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 7: declined to delay the trial further and set the trial pace. 673 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 2: On Tuesday, the judge issued a gag order in the 674 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 2: case that had been requested by the DA. Who does 675 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 2: that gag order cover? 676 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 7: So the gag order prevents Trump or anyone at his 677 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 7: direction from publicly commenting about the prosecutors or potential witnesses 678 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 7: or the jurors during this trial. So this was requested 679 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 7: by the district attorney and the judge granted it based 680 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 7: on Trump's history of conduct around this type of behavior 681 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 7: in regards talking about judges and prosecutors and jurors and 682 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,280 Speaker 7: the family members. So the judge said that he balanced 683 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 7: carefully the First Amendment rights of the former president against 684 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 7: the fair administration of justice and determined that in order 685 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:04,800 Speaker 7: for text the everyone involved, given Trump's platform and millions 686 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 7: of followers, that he needed to be restricted in this way. This, 687 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 7: of course, does not prevent Trump from denying the allegation 688 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,800 Speaker 7: and saying, you know, a lot of other things about 689 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 7: his rivals and the witch hunts, everything else like that. 690 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 7: It's urginented at preventing personal attacks that could put people's 691 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 7: safety at risk. You know. Even one of the criminal 692 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 7: cases against Trump in Washington, of course, accuses him of 693 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 7: inciting a deadly insurrection at the United States Capital as 694 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 7: part of his plan to overturn the result of the 695 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 7: twenty twenty election. So there's quite a bit of evidence 696 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 7: that Trump's words have impact, and the judge does not 697 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 7: want to take any chances here, especially after we saw 698 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 7: in the two civil trials that Trump does have a 699 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 7: hard time with his filter in court. He was picked 700 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 7: out of both trials. He clashed with the judge, he 701 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 7: muthered under his breast, had to be warned or about 702 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 7: saying things that the jury here. So this is just 703 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,239 Speaker 7: the judge's way of trying to prevent any of that 704 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 7: from happening in his courtroom, and we'll see how effective 705 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 7: it is. 706 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 2: The gag order did not cover the judge or his family, 707 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 2: and already in a social media post on Wednesday, Trump 708 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 2: attacked the judge for rejecting his request to delay the 709 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,720 Speaker 2: trial and for imposing the gag order. And Trump apparently 710 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 2: cite a bogus social media account to make a false 711 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 2: claim that the judge's daughter had posted an image of 712 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 2: him behind bars. There's a lot going on here and 713 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 2: the trial hasn't even started. Thanks so much, Eric. That's 714 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 2: Bloomberg Legal reporter Eric Larson, and that's it for this 715 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,720 Speaker 2: edition of the Bloomberg Law Podcast. Remember you can always 716 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 2: get the latest legal news by subscribing and listening to 717 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 2: the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at Bloomberg dot com, 718 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 2: slash podcast, slash Law. I'm June Grosso and this is 719 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 2: Bloomberg MHM.