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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hold the phote of fellow conspiracy Realism. Yeah, we have

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Speaker 2: we have some breaking news, funny story. Right as or

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Speaker 2: directly after we recorded this episode, we got some astonishing

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Speaker 2: reports from the DEA and Matt you hit up the

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Speaker 2: group chat instantly.

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Speaker 3: I did the DEA. Well, can I do you mind

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Speaker 3: if I just say what it is?

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Speaker 4: Please?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what we're doing this part.

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Speaker 3: At the beginning, guys, we have talked about uh, well,

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Speaker 3: people keep calling it marijuana in the news, but as

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Speaker 3: we're going to talk about this episode, please call it canna.

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Speaker 3: That's what it is.

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Speaker 2: Shout out the higher side chat.

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Speaker 3: There you go.

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Speaker 5: Is it because marijuana is kind of still like has

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Speaker 5: like sort of stigma, Yeah, because of sort of racist overton.

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Speaker 3: Ok, we're literally about to have this conversation.

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Speaker 4: I remember.

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Speaker 2: You know them, the DEA Drug Enforcement Administration.

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Speaker 3: Yes, they are planning to or at least proposing to

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Speaker 3: reschedule marijuana from a Schedule one to a Schedule three drug.

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Speaker 2: Substance, has it happened yet? Schedule one for anybody outside

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Speaker 2: of the US or for anybody who hasn't lived an

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Speaker 2: interesting life, Schedule one is the is considered like they're

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Speaker 2: the most vilified and or dangerous drugs that are off

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Speaker 2: They deserved to have little to know medical efficacy.

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Speaker 4: Things like heroin and cocaine.

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Speaker 3: You know, yes, and they are drugs. They also have

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Speaker 3: a high potential for abuse right and addiction. But Schedule three,

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Speaker 3: this is the quote from the actual DEA scheduling here.

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Speaker 3: The new scheduling for cannabis would be quote moderate to

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Speaker 3: low potential for physical and psychological dependence, which is okay.

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Speaker 2: And this is important because this is a federal level move.

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Speaker 2: If the White House budget boffins approve of it, it's

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Speaker 2: a real game changer. Right now, thirty seven states do

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Speaker 2: have some form of legalized cannabis for medicinal uses, but

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Speaker 2: state by state legislation is a world away from federal legislation.

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Speaker 5: Well, and even in states where it's legal, there's still

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Speaker 5: weirdness with the banking system where you'll go to a

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Speaker 5: dispensary and you know, basically their point of sale is

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Speaker 5: almost like treated like an ATM where you're paying ATM

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Speaker 5: fees and then they're giving you back your change in

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Speaker 5: cash to the rounding up kind of to the nearest dollar.

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Speaker 5: It's very unusual. As legitimate as these operations are, there

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Speaker 5: still are like all of these your kind of things

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Speaker 5: that don't jive with like the overall federal law. And

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Speaker 5: this would change all of that.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's marijuana companies or cannabis companies be taxed like

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Speaker 2: any other business, which is so.

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Speaker 5: Would this immediately like legalize it because it's not.

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Speaker 3: No, because other other substances that are Schedule three or

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Speaker 3: just a couple of ketamine like steroids, antabolic steroids, stuff

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Speaker 3: with cody controlled.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but none of this could happen because this still

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Speaker 3: has to go to the White House and there's some

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Speaker 3: people up there that have to gomm Okay.

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Speaker 2: It just feels like brain doesn't guys like it's going

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Speaker 2: to I think something like it's going to happen because

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Speaker 2: the majority of the states is turning around. The money,

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Speaker 2: the money started speaking, you know what I mean, people listened.

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Speaker 2: And also the Biden administration really wants to win, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: True, they want to appeal to the young people.

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Speaker 3: Gotta be cool.

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Speaker 2: Cool Grandpa is like, you can't get your dad's house,

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Speaker 2: but you can come over here.

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Speaker 3: I'll get rid of your student loans and student loans.

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Speaker 2: And with that, with that important update we do we

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Speaker 2: talked off air, we do believe that our examination this

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Speaker 2: evening holds up because everything we said still is true

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Speaker 2: and as we will find, there are some moral, indeed

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Speaker 2: philosophical quandaries that we encounter with the idea of drugs

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Speaker 2: as weapons.

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Speaker 3: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 3: my name is Nol.

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Speaker 2: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 2: super producer Paul, Mission Control decand most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 2: You are here that makes this the stuff they don't want.

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Speaker 4: You to know.

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Speaker 2: This is a continuing series. Fellow conspiracy realist. We earlier

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Speaker 2: delved into the idea of drugs as weapon. It's things

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Speaker 2: like Tora, things like hallucinogens or opioids being being deployed

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Speaker 2: in a purposely damaging manner. It's a real thing. We

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Speaker 2: thought this was very interesting and as we were recording,

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Speaker 2: you remember, there was other stuff that we had not

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Speaker 2: yet gotten to. So this became a series and I

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Speaker 2: guess you know, we gotta start out first. One thing.

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Speaker 2: I feel like it's very important to say cannabis is

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Speaker 2: sometimes vilified, right historically, sometimes often in modern day, but

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Speaker 2: in the larger picture, as we'll find maybe, uh, this

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Speaker 2: is somewhat of a recent development, this vilification at.

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Speaker 5: The opposite and yeah, in some ways, I feel like

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Speaker 5: it's gotten a lot lighter rap and is no longer

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Speaker 5: really even referred to as a gateway drug the way

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Speaker 5: it used to be. But what you're talking about, I think, man,

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Speaker 5: is this specific situation involving cannabis that is very specific

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Speaker 5: and involves a very specific type of extreme reaction. But overall,

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Speaker 5: I would say the attitude is softened towards cannabis.

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Speaker 2: Yet what I'm saying is we'll see this in just

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Speaker 2: a second, throughout the larger picture, like all of you know,

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Speaker 2: human society and history, cannabis was not vilified, and so

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Speaker 2: what we're seeing now as a loosening is arguably a

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Speaker 2: return to the baseline normal of the majority of the past.

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Speaker 4: Totally fair.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's a plant that grows out of the ground.

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Speaker 5: There was certainly a time where anything of that nature

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Speaker 5: was Why would we dare try to you know, regulate

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Speaker 5: what God hath wrought upon us.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's still a weird thing because poppies are

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Speaker 3: just a plant that grow out of the ground.

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Speaker 2: Too.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I think there are some people that would

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Speaker 5: argue that all drugs should be legal, that it would

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Speaker 5: cause they would they would cause a lot less problems.

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Speaker 3: But it's an interesting debate, right, which is kind of

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Speaker 3: cool because it is, it is and probably always will

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Speaker 3: be a debate, and we'll go through, I would say,

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Speaker 3: where drugs get completely legalized, then everything's illegal again, and

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Speaker 3: then we're just we're going to have an interesting relationship

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Speaker 3: with these things like we've always had.

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Speaker 2: And in the United States in particular, the way that

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Speaker 2: state legislation works, the laws become wildly different, right, And

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Speaker 2: that too, I think lends interesting flavor to a lot

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Speaker 2: of these debates. So we're never going to tell people

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Speaker 2: what to do. Be safe, don't harm others. In tonight's

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Speaker 2: follow up to this series, we're looking at a different

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Speaker 2: kind of conspiracy and weaponization, the concept of something called

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Speaker 2: cannabis induced psychosis. Here are the facts. Okay, this is

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Speaker 2: a fun way to get into it. What are I

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Speaker 2: was I was talking with our friends on a on

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Speaker 2: a show called The Higher Side. It's a it's a podcast,

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Speaker 2: or it's a cannabis based podcast hosted by people who

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Speaker 2: are professional cannabis farmers. And they're the ones who were

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Speaker 2: always adamant with me about the nomenclature that marijuana itself

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Speaker 2: is a prejudicial term. Because of Harry Aslinger wanting to

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Speaker 2: sort of do the Hogan DAWs thing.

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Speaker 4: I had a real person's name, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Or and Slingers sorry, they.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's good, It's good, you know.

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Speaker 5: I mean, the terms are relevant, I think, and there

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Speaker 5: are cannabis activists who you could call that that have

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Speaker 5: done interesting things to affect change, and I think we're seeing, uh,

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Speaker 5: the fruits of a lot of I wanted to add

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Speaker 5: one thing to peggyback on one I said before about

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Speaker 5: some people thinking all drugs should be legal. I had

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Speaker 5: one of those people. But that does not mean that

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Speaker 5: I think that everyone should do all the drugs.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't mean that you do all the drugs. You know,

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Speaker 2: most activists said, most activists are not are not in

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Speaker 2: that way, and a lot of them come to that

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Speaker 2: conclusion or that platform that ideology through any number of roots.

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Speaker 2: You know, you might have people who are just very libertarian, right,

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Speaker 2: so they may never touch a substance or illegal substance themselves,

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Speaker 2: but they want to square with their other beliefs. I mean. Also, cannabis,

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Speaker 2: I think has so many cool nicknames. It took me

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Speaker 2: forever to figure out what left hand cigarettes are or

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Speaker 2: jazz cigarettes.

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Speaker 5: Jazz cabbage is another good one, jazz cabbage lettuce.

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Speaker 3: As morning routine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, gotta get right in the morning.

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Speaker 4: The kids call it zaza now, which is delightful. I guess.

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Speaker 4: I don't know where it comes from.

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Speaker 5: I'm not even sure what the etymology is, but that

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Speaker 5: is what the gen zers call it.

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Speaker 2: And then of course weed pot. I also love the

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Speaker 2: specific strain names like sour diesel, and they just get

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Speaker 2: more and more ridiculous, especially.

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Speaker 3: That time stick as the supermoji.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's my favorite one. Yeah, it's really mellow.

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Speaker 2: This thing is. It's a group term for a group

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Speaker 2: genus of flowering plants, and it has been so popular

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Speaker 2: with humanity for so long. The first generic and archaeological

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Speaker 2: evidence shows us that people were domesticating some form of

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Speaker 2: cannabis around twelve thousand years ago in East Asia during

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Speaker 2: Neolithic times. It was also funny because East Asia has

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Speaker 2: some of the harshest anti cannabis laws around. Well, but

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Speaker 2: they used to dig it.

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Speaker 3: I'm just saying, yeah, but the plant itself can be

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Speaker 3: used for its fibers and not smoked, right right, Oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: so who knows if twelve thousand years.

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Speaker 2: Ago, Yeah, that's a good point. They were likely doing both.

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Speaker 2: There were religious ceremonies where it appeared people would burn

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Speaker 2: it in some kind of incense container and inhale the fumes.

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Speaker 2: They would also, yeah, they'd make fabric out of it

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Speaker 2: or rope. People figured out it had mind altering effects.

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Speaker 2: There were certain things you could ingest. They didn't have

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Speaker 2: the science to understand, you know, this is THC or

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Speaker 2: this is CBD or sativa or whatever, but they realized

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Speaker 2: the effects. And ancient Greeks wrote about this. Herodotus, famous

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Speaker 2: for me mentioned in Assassin's Creed Odyssey, as well as

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Speaker 2: a couple of other things. He had a book called

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Speaker 2: Histories where he tells a funny story about how people

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Speaker 2: just love getting high in like hemp saunas hemp seed

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Speaker 2: saunas in Scythia. And I'm not sure even now it works,

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Speaker 2: but we do have the.

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Speaker 4: Quote, Yeah, the Scythians.

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Speaker 5: As I said, take some sort of hemp se presumably

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Speaker 5: flowers and creeping under the felt coverings.

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Speaker 4: Throw it upon the red hot stones.

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Speaker 5: Immediately it smokes and gives out such a vapor as

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Speaker 5: no grid vapor bath can exceed the Scyths. Oh they're siths.

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Speaker 5: That's like they're the bad guys. Delighted, shout for joy. Oh,

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Speaker 5: say it's fun.

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Speaker 4: It does sound like a good time, silly, goofy good time.

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Speaker 3: Is that a thing? Are there? Are there like weed

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Speaker 3: bath houses?

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Speaker 4: Never have I ever? It's just called hot boxing. Your

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Speaker 4: mom's car is what that is?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but like go and get a spa day in

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Speaker 3: a cannabis cloud.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, I mean if it was gonna be a thing,

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Speaker 5: it would be a thing now. And probably in like California.

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Speaker 5: You know there's some spots which is so legal. It

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Speaker 5: has been for so long that they've had like there's

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Speaker 5: like they finally have the actual consumption lounges.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if you guys know.

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Speaker 5: I didn't that while cannabis has been legal for purchase

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Speaker 5: and personal use, it has never been legal in the

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Speaker 5: United States to consume in a place with others.

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Speaker 4: And only just now.

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Speaker 5: There are a couple of spots, I believe, one on

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Speaker 5: by Woody Harrelson in California and one in Vegas that

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Speaker 5: are legally licensed for on site consumption.

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Speaker 2: I do have to point out it's just looking at

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Speaker 2: this because it surprised me too when I first read histories.

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Speaker 2: I think they're throwing the flowers of some kind of

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Speaker 2: cannabis plant on there, maybe not necessarily the seeds That

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Speaker 2: might be a translation thing.

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Speaker 5: Those seeds will pop and get you in the eye,

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Speaker 5: like I don't know, like popcorn or something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we've all been there. But I'm sure there

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Speaker 2: are a lot of people who ingest some kind of

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Speaker 2: cannabis and then go relax in asana. Those things seem

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Speaker 2: like they go together. But I know people have tried. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: their Yeah, it's like faheta is sizzling at a restaurant.

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Speaker 2: But also, did we know that. I do want to

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Speaker 2: bust the myth here so that nobody risked their job

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Speaker 2: or their career. If you're trying to beat a drug test,

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Speaker 2: going into a sauna for a long time will be fun,

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Speaker 2: but it is not going to detox you. It is

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Speaker 2: not going to work. And people have tried that and

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Speaker 2: had disappointing results.

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Speaker 4: Dude. Thank yes, that's absolutely correct.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you said it will give you the same result,

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Speaker 5: because I think someone said it to you as a tweet,

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Speaker 5: or someone from the industry or some who had experienced this,

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Speaker 5: because they're not stupid, right. I did just want to

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Speaker 5: point out in terms of this sort of spiritualized version

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Speaker 5: of this sort of thing, or maybe a sauna is

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Speaker 5: not necessarily spiritual, but what they're talking about it almost

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Speaker 5: feels ritualistic. There is, in of course, Oakland, a church

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Speaker 5: called the Zide Door, Oakland's Church of Ethnogenic Plants, where

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Speaker 5: their sacraments involve cannabis and psilocybin mushrooms that allow individuals

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Speaker 5: to come closer to their God, their soul, and their

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Speaker 5: truest understand ending of faith. And it is a Christian church.

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Speaker 2: There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Again, as long as

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Speaker 2: they're not forcing people to do stuff they don't want

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Speaker 2: to do. I do get it. I do have to

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Speaker 2: get to this one Herodotus thing though, because if you

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Speaker 2: continue reading this quote, which is circulated and a lot

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Speaker 2: of cannabis discussion forums and so on and scholarship even

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Speaker 2: after he says, you know, they shout for joy, they're delighted.

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Speaker 2: He goes on to say this vapor serves them instead

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Speaker 2: of a water bath, for they never, by any chance

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Speaker 2: wash their bodies with water. So he like walks down

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Speaker 2: the street to also call them smell Athians. Yeah, call

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Speaker 2: them like dirty kids. Still, cannabis grew into a global crop.

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Speaker 2: It was used in spiritual rituals in Japan and China,

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Speaker 2: in step with just like in Scythia, in step with

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Speaker 2: practical uses for fabric garments, ropes, And I guess we

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Speaker 2: have associations with cannabis here in the Americas. I didn't know.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't until fifteen forty five that the Spanish imported

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Speaker 2: cannabis to South America, to Chile in particular. Mind I

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Speaker 2: it's just a crop. I think it's just a crop.

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Speaker 2: They already understood, so it made sense to them they

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Speaker 2: could create.

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Speaker 5: Course, at that point it is treated like any other

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Speaker 5: import export, just like as a cash crop.

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Speaker 4: And everyone's fine with it.

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Speaker 2: And as any college stoner can tell you, America's own

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Speaker 2: founding fathers were super duper into hemp. We don't know

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Speaker 2: if there was super we know a couple guys were

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Speaker 2: super into smoking it, for sure, but we also know

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Speaker 2: a lot of them just considered it a profitable, commercially

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Speaker 2: viable crop, including you know, including like the Jeffersons, the Washingtons,

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Speaker 2: and so on. But to our earlier point, this stuff

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Speaker 2: wasn't vilified the way it has been in modern era,

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Speaker 2: and I would define modern eras in like the last

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Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty years, right, last one hundred and

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Speaker 2: fifty two centuries here in the West are.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but what there was pushback against it or much earlier, right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah. The first and the precedent of what we

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Speaker 2: would call the modern cannabis bands and laws came about

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Speaker 2: in the thirteen hundreds in Islamic regions, and then in

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Speaker 2: the eighteen hundreds some colonial countries began to restrict this

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Speaker 2: as well. But when they were restricting it, it was

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Speaker 2: kind of a culture war thing for them because it

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Speaker 2: was the laws were based on class and social and

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Speaker 2: racial tensions. It was a method of punishing and controlling people,

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Speaker 2: just like just to be clear, it was not a

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Speaker 2: medical concern when they did this, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: And we said, you know, there was this charge to

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Speaker 2: vilify canna abyss in the US and the guy who

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Speaker 2: did it was such a pill. We talked about him

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Speaker 2: in a prohibition episode. I believe his objections were entirely

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Speaker 2: based on racism. He's like, Mexican people are bad. If

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Speaker 2: white women get high, they're gonna listen to jazz and

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Speaker 2: then sleep with black men, and we can't have that.

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Speaker 5: Well, even some of those terms you talked about left

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Speaker 5: handed cigarettes or jazz cigarettes, what is the left hand

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Speaker 5: associated with? Like the devil, the left hand path and

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Speaker 5: jazz cigarettes. It's like intense amounts of being a junkie

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Speaker 5: or something. And it was much easier to demonize this

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Speaker 5: crop that was readily flowing over the border, you know,

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Speaker 5: from Mexico, and then associate that like a lot honestly,

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Speaker 5: let's not lie. A lot of politicians still do today

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Speaker 5: as sort of a dog whistle of that we got

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Speaker 5: to crack down an immigration because they're bringing drugs.

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Speaker 4: You know, and crime over the border.

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Speaker 5: It was just a much more kind of i don't know,

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Speaker 5: feeding an absolute falsehood as opposed to something that maybe

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Speaker 5: has a tinge of truth to it in terms of

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Speaker 5: like car drugs and perhaps cartel violence being very much

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Speaker 5: a real thing. It's still used in a similar way.

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Speaker 5: But the idea that cannabis was causing the decline of

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Speaker 5: Western civilization, you know, at the Mexican American border, pretty

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Speaker 5: absurd when you look at it now.

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Speaker 2: It was empowering criminal organizations. That's one of the big

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Speaker 2: takeaways of prohibition. You want to give organized crime a

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Speaker 2: new revenue stream. Try to prohibit a substance. Yeah, it

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Speaker 2: doesn't really matter what it is, sadly, but we saw

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Speaker 2: we also saw the dawn of global coordination. So with

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Speaker 2: the arrival of like a world wherein everybody can interact

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Speaker 2: in some way with another person or another country, we

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Speaker 2: saw this huge crackdown on this plant and lake you

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Speaker 2: pointed out earlier. There has been a somewhat of a

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Speaker 2: reversal of draconian drug policy in the twenty first century.

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Speaker 2: The bands are still highly uneven in the US because

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Speaker 2: it sounds ridiculous to explain it to someone from outside

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Speaker 2: of this country. But there's stuff you can totally do

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Speaker 2: in you know, Washington or California that can land you

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Speaker 2: in jail in Alabama, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, the attitudes strange.

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Speaker 2: And in that way, it's somewhat similar to the ongoing

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Speaker 2: debate and the uneven laws around abortion. Whether your pro

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Speaker 2: choice or pro life, you know, a state will treat

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Speaker 2: you differently depends on.

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Speaker 5: That's odd, you know that those two things that seem

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Speaker 5: it couldn't be more different. I mean, but there is

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Speaker 5: a similarity too, because they've both been involved governing what

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Speaker 5: people do with and to their bodies. So I guess

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Speaker 5: there is a similarity. But it just feels like the

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Speaker 5: tide is turning with marijuana, where it's just a matter

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Speaker 5: of time before even what once were the most draconian

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Speaker 5: places are like, you know what, this is a revenue

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Speaker 5: stream and we should probably just stop, you know, stop

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Speaker 5: this lying. It's no longer politically useful to us anymore,

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Speaker 5: you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. It was the first really big use case that

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Speaker 2: brought previously divided people together on this subject was Colorado.

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Speaker 2: Right when Colorado enabled people to buy and sell cannabis legally,

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Speaker 2: they made money hand over fist, you know, so other

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Speaker 2: people wanted in on the game. The money moves, and

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Speaker 2: that's I think that's part of why right now, if

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Speaker 2: you look at drug policy in the US, it's a messy,

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Speaker 2: messy bowl of spaghetti, just like something you might cook

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Speaker 2: when you're really high.

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Speaker 3: Is it moms spaghetti and does it have her morning

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Speaker 3: routine in it?

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Speaker 2: It's on her sweater already, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 4: Ha, No, man, you got ripped off.

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Speaker 2: Tikops. Yeah. And so this we do have to say

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Speaker 2: before we get into this, because this is something we

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Speaker 2: have to explore together. A lot of that recent vilification

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Speaker 2: and a lot of the public attitude from marijuana and

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Speaker 2: throughout decade recent previous decades, it had a bad look

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Speaker 2: because the propaganda was successful, things like Reefer Madness all

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Speaker 2: those other scary films, you know, the that was.

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Speaker 3: Almost one hundred years ago. Isn't that crazy? Right? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Right, because that was a nineteen thirty six film, I

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Speaker 2: want to say, nineteen thirties and the.

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Speaker 5: Highly racist You already pointed that out then, but that

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Speaker 5: particular film is shockingly racist.

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Speaker 2: But is there some genuine sand to this? We're all,

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Speaker 2: is this bad reputation? Are these all just cynical attempts

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Speaker 2: to wage a war on drugs? It turns out the

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Speaker 2: truth may not be as simple as we would like it.

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Speaker 2: We'll tell you what we're talking about afterward from our sponsors.

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Speaker 3: And we're back everyone. Before we jump in to the

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Speaker 3: next section here. I just didn't realize that the DARE

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Speaker 3: program was established in the year I was born, and

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Speaker 3: that just it's crazy to me that that program has

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Speaker 3: been alive as long as I have, and it's you know,

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Speaker 3: it maybe has children or offspring, let's say, in different ways,

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Speaker 3: like different other programs, Because that was an LAPD Los

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Speaker 3: Angeles Police Department team up with the Los Angeles School

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Speaker 3: districtor Unified School District that we've talked about before in

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Speaker 3: the show where they like went in to teach the

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Speaker 3: kids all about the drugs and everything again whole episode

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Speaker 3: on that. It's just crazy to me that that even

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Speaker 3: thing grew We grew up with that.

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Speaker 5: It precisely absolutely and I have very just sin memories

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Speaker 5: of having those folks come to my school with their

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Speaker 5: suitcase full of drugs that made so many of the

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Speaker 5: kids just be like, I want to trial these drugs.

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Speaker 5: But I also had to say, memories of them bringing

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Speaker 5: reformed addicts to our school who are talking to us

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Speaker 5: about that was like what life on hard drugs was like,

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Speaker 5: and that definitely stuck with me as well. But the truth,

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Speaker 5: I think lies somewhere between the two, between the fear

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Speaker 5: mongering and the like over you know, the overly trying

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Speaker 5: to terrify kids and to being straight. And it turns out,

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Speaker 5: to Ben's point before the break, that there is some

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Speaker 5: sand to the kinds of extreme reactions some people can

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Speaker 5: have with something as what we've come to believe as

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Speaker 5: innocuous as cannabis.

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Speaker 2: Here's where it gets crazy. True story. John Morales, the

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Speaker 2: actor played Big Gruffly crime Dog, said sixteen years in

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Speaker 2: prison due to a twenty eleven arrest where he was

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Speaker 2: growing one thousand cannabis plants. He also had twenty seven

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Speaker 2: weapons and nine thousand rounds of ammunition. I'm kidding, that's

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Speaker 2: not the crazy part. But that's the truth.

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Speaker 4: So you're not kidding, that's real kind, it's it's wild. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So let's go with a specific example. This is something

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Speaker 2: I think we talked about briefly off air that gets

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Speaker 2: us into the conflict that we're kind of wrestling with.

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Speaker 2: It's a story that starts in twenty eighteen with a

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Speaker 2: young California resident.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 5: And then I have to tell you when I first

438
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 5: when you hipped me into this story, hip us the story,

439
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 5: I couldn't believe what I.

440
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 4: Was hearing, just going to preface it with that.

441
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 5: In twenty eighteen, California resident Brent Specker, I think that's right,

442
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 5: described as a novice marijuana user, was smoking a bong

443
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 5: with her new boyfriend, a man by the name of

444
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 5: Chad Omelia. She had a coughing fit. As anyone who's

445
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 5: used a bomb can tell you, coughing fits are not

446
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 5: entirely uncommon, and they don't necessarily mean something bad is happening.

447
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 5: It's going to have to power through it, you know.

448
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 4: Ah. Yeah.

449
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 5: Some people say if you don't cough, you don't get off,

450
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 5: which sounds kind of gross, but it's the thing people

451
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 5: say because they usually imply I said, Okay, you got

452
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 5: a real serious hit and you're about to be mega

453
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 5: mega high. In this case, it was very, very different.

454
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 5: According to Specker and a group of experts testifying in court.

455
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 5: Yes court, she immediately began to hallucinate and allegedly lost

456
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 5: touch with reality. Was experiencing various intense psychotic I think

457
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 5: you could argued delusions, one being that she was dead,

458
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 5: that she was hearing voices of who she believed were

459
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,959
Speaker 5: paramedics that were trying to revive her.

460
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 4: I found that a little confusing.

461
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 5: Because it's like, you know, sometimes you will have a

462
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 5: situation where someone will black out and they'll be in

463
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 5: some sort of let's say, fugue states, right, and then

464
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 5: they're hearing the voices of reality that then get filtered

465
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 5: through whatever that kind of hallucinatory state might have been.

466
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:55,439
Speaker 5: But that is not the case here. This is very

467
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 5: much imagined paramedics.

468
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 3: Yes, and remember this is testimony given in a court case. Right,

469
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 3: These are I hesitate to say carefully constructed events or

470
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 3: a carefully constructed story, but as much is it's a

471
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 3: narrative being told to by a defense to keep someone

472
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 3: out of prison and or to prevent them from being

473
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 3: charged with something.

474
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 4: That is what this is.

475
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,120
Speaker 2: A jury is hearing this, yes and so And at

476
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 2: the time Byrne feels like her Brind feels like she's

477
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 2: being kind of bullied by her new boyfriend. They had

478
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 2: been dating for a few months. His name is Chad Amelia.

479
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 2: And as she is experiencing, you know the result of

480
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 2: this of taking this bond hit, these voices that were

481
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 2: once paramedics to her, they become more sinister and they

482
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 2: tell her, according to this testimony, that she has to

483
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 2: kill her boyfriend to bring herself back to life. She

484
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 2: acts on these hallucinations, fatally stabbing him one hundred and

485
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 2: eight times with two large knives. The police arrived shortly

486
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: after midnight. O'melia is in sensate, lying in a pool

487
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 2: of blood, probably already dead or bleeding out and unresponsive,

488
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 2: can't feel things. They at this point they don't know

489
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 2: if he's doing basically yeah, but they know he's not.

490
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 2: He's not in a good way. And when he when

491
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 2: they when they come in, Brennan starts stabbing herself in

492
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: the net and with a serrated knife and it takes

493
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 2: they have to use a taser. She's still stabbing herself

494
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 2: while they're tasing her. It takes nine blows from a

495
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 2: baton to bring her down and disarmor. They call the paramedics,

496
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 2: and the paramedics are eventually able to save her life,

497
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 2: but not the life of Omelia.

498
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 5: Well, guys, I mean what I hate to even bring

499
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 5: it up, but what comes to mine in the situation

500
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 5: for me, and I think many people hearing you surf

501
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 5: of the first time will be some kind of demonic

502
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 5: possession that we see depicted in this way where someone's

503
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 5: harming themselves, you know, and acting outside of their character

504
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 5: to the extreme, while hearing voices and all of these

505
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,479
Speaker 5: kinds of things. And well, you know, whatever your position

506
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 5: might be on whether or not exorcisms are real or

507
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 5: are real because of demonic possessions are real, Rather, I

508
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 5: can't help it feel this is something that would you know,

509
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 5: would happen in a case like that.

510
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 2: So there's a lot to unpack about this case. We'll

511
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 2: get into some of it, but for our purpose is

512
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 2: tonight the most important aspect is this. She is not

513
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 2: going to see any prison time. She's originally charged with murder,

514
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 2: it was dropped down too involuntary manslaughter, a crime for

515
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 2: what she was found guilty. The jury found her guilty

516
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 2: was a jury trial, and at that point the Superior

517
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 2: Court Judge David Worley sentenced her to two years of

518
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 2: probation and one hundred hours of community service. She had

519
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 2: also been out on bail since twenty eighteen. That seems

520
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 2: pretty light for a murder, even an accidental one.

521
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 5: Right, Well, and at all hint is on this argument

522
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 5: that she was involuntarily intoxicated. And I don't know, man,

523
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 5: this really feels like a stretch to me. I mean,

524
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 5: peer pressure is real don't be subject to peer pressure

525
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 5: kids out there. People that apply peer pressure are usually.

526
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 4: Kind of.

527
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 5: I mean, it's not a nice thing to do. Nobody

528
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 5: wants to feel to be made to feel that way.

529
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 5: But is it the same as holding someone down and

530
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 5: putting a wed gas mask on their face and against

531
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 5: their will, forcing them to get high.

532
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 4: I don't think it's the same thing.

533
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 2: That's the argument. A lot of people were irritated about

534
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,719
Speaker 2: this and thinking it was a case of affluenza or something,

535
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 2: affluenza being the portmanteau for the way that people of

536
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 2: certain class and privilege can get much lighter sentences in court,

537
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 2: you know, up to an including just getting things dismissed

538
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 2: or getting a sweetheart a sweetheart deal with the prosecution.

539
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 2: Under the criminal law of California, you are responsible for

540
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: your actions if you are intoxicated, whether that's a legal

541
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 2: substance like alcohol, whether it's something illegal like bath salts

542
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 2: or whatever, fentanyl, whatever, unless you were intoxicated involuntarily against

543
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: your will. So, for our earlier DA Tour example, if

544
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,719
Speaker 2: somebody blew detur in your face right and or you know,

545
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 2: the gymsen weed stuff, and then ordered you to commit

546
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 2: a crime. You would not necessarily be on the hook

547
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 2: for that because you were involuntarily dosed. So that's the

548
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 2: argument she makes, or her team makes.

549
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 3: Well, the argument is that she was. It wasn't forced,

550
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 3: but she was. She was already not what a novice

551
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 3: user she was. She didn't smoke weed very often. She

552
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 3: had already been smoking the bong and we talked about

553
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 3: the coughing fit she had that was after another like

554
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 3: and basically and another bong hit. That was the argument

555
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 3: in court.

556
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 2: Well, the lawyers did use the phrase involuntarily intoxicated, and

557
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 2: it's because of that California law.

558
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 5: Yes, aren't they arguing that it was like the final

559
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,959
Speaker 5: hit that did it then all of a sudden was

560
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 5: the one that she was sort of that's where the

561
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 5: true peer pressure came in or the you know, the

562
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 5: boyfriend bullying her into doing it, and then that's the

563
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 5: one that caused this you know, apparent psychotic break or

564
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 5: what we're going to get into shortly.

565
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 3: That was the argument.

566
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, involuntarily intoxicated. It's a dangerous argument to make too,

567
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 2: because is that not kind of victim blameing a dead person?

568
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 2: You know, we do know there was bodycam footage from

569
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 2: law enforcement where you can see you can see documented

570
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 2: footage of Britain's behavior. And obviously this is a terrible

571
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 2: thing to happen. Someone's lost a people have lost a friend,

572
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 2: a son, a loved one, you know, and she's lost

573
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 2: her partner as well, and she is There are experts

574
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 2: who come for both the prosecution and the defense side,

575
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 2: and they both argue that this person was suffering from psychosis,

576
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 2: from a mental break and they also say, prior to

577
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 2: these events, she had no history of mental illness, no

578
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: history of general violence, suicidal ideation. Instead, they seem to

579
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 2: agree she showed signs of something called cannabis induced psychosis

580
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 2: or CIP, A bit of a controversial diagnosis, even now

581
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 2: it's listed in the DSM.

582
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 5: What we didn't we mainly hinted around the racist aspects

583
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 5: of early kind of you know, marijuana propaganda or whatever.

584
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 5: And maybe I don't mean to use that term, like

585
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 5: it's definitively none of the stuff is real, but like

586
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 5: there were a lot of things en Rey for madness

587
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 5: that were about it'll cause you to go insane, It'll

588
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 5: cause you to go insane, lose your mind and perhaps

589
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 5: hurt the ones you love, while of course drinking is

590
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 5: totally fine and no one ever hurts somebody they loved,

591
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 5: you know, while consuming too much alcohol.

592
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 4: I don't know.

593
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 5: When I hear this, it just feels really dangerous, you know,

594
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 5: the idea of bringing back this notion that we cannabis

595
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 5: alone could cause someone to do this, It just feels like,

596
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 5: I mean, you certainly hear about studies where regular use

597
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 5: of cannabis can cause exacerbated forms of dementia over time,

598
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,919
Speaker 5: it can cause changes in the prefrontal cortex and things

599
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 5: like that, but the one to one.

600
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 4: Is really odd to me and a little bit of

601
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 4: a reach. It feels well.

602
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 3: It should be noted that this was an argument that

603
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 3: the defense attorneys put forward. Yeah, and then the medical

604
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 3: experts that the prosecution came forward with agreed that this

605
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 3: was in fact a case of cannabis induced psychosis, like

606
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 3: I get it, yeah, which is which is weird again,

607
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 3: Like we don't think about it as even being a thing.

608
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the judge said this right, had concluded that yes,

609
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 2: this was a death, this was involuntary manslaughter, and that

610
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 2: as a result of the circumstances leading to this tragic

611
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 2: horrific event. It was clear the defendant had quote lost

612
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 2: touch with reality, basically supporting what the experts had also concluded.

613
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 2: This is one of the most prominent cases in I

614
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,959
Speaker 2: guess outside of scholarship, this is one of the most

615
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 2: prominent public cases, but because it was so extreme. But

616
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 2: it's not the only one. We have seen multiple reports

617
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 2: of multiple reports of people who encounter or believe they

618
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 2: have encountered CIP, whether secondhand or first hand, like in

619
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 2: their own mind. There's another example we want to talk

620
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 2: about from twenty twenty two.

621
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think we should very much so.

622
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 5: One man's message about cannabis induced psychosis from PBS Rocky

623
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 5: Mountain's name of the article Ethan Andrew. They say started

624
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 5: smoking cannabis when he was sixteen, and the symptoms of

625
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,879
Speaker 5: cannabis and new psychosis started when Andrew was eighteen, after

626
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 5: several months of smoking what he called high potency.

627
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 4: Marijuana every day.

628
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 5: A quote from Andrew, I was having schizophrenia like symptoms,

629
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 5: like seeing things and hearing things that weren't there. I

630
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 5: was super paranoid that people were following me. And by

631
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 5: the way, the article goes on to point out maybe

632
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 5: a little ironically that Andrew was using cannabis in order

633
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 5: to deal with anxiety and depression and obsessive compulsive disorder,

634
00:36:55,520 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 5: and it would appear it had the opposite effect, which is.

635
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,720
Speaker 3: A common US use of common when we talk about

636
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 3: you know, medical marijuana, that that term right where it

637
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 3: comes from, is treating things like this, right, using this

638
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 3: substance as an alternative to being prescribed other types of

639
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 3: Western medication. And you know, for I don't even know

640
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 3: how many countless human beings, the cannabis has functioned really

641
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 3: well for those things, at least with you know, in

642
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 3: case studies and in larger studies with you know, both

643
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 3: individuals and large swaths of people. Guys. I thought it

644
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 3: was interesting to hear this particular story from someone that

645
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 3: was that young, sixteen to eighteen years old. It's really

646
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 3: interesting because some of the data we're going to get

647
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 3: into later in this episode talks about the age you

648
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 3: are when you begin using cannabis as a.

649
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 2: Substance state of brain formation.

650
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

651
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 3: Well, and also this concept here in this version of

652
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 3: cannabis induced psychosis, it took years and or you know,

653
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 3: months for these symptoms to really progress to the point

654
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 3: where Andrew was noticing them, and then people around him

655
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 3: were noticing them.

656
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: You know what, Without further ado, let's get to that part.

657
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 2: So psychosis in general refers to It's kind of vague,

658
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 2: but it's a collectionist symptoms that affect the mind where

659
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 2: there has been some measure of loss of contact with reality,

660
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 2: meaning most directly that a person experiencing psychosis will have

661
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 2: a difficult time to some degree, clocking the difference between

662
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 2: reality and fantasy. Right, So you might just have intrusive thoughts.

663
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 2: Those can happen to everybody, but for most people you

664
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 2: recognize that that's just that's you having an intrusive thought.

665
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 2: This is not the case with psychosis, and it's still

666
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 2: really difficult to understand because, just like the phrase cannabis,

667
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 2: psychosis is a group term. People get to psychosis through

668
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 2: any number of different roads or paths, right, just like

669
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 2: differing political ideologies lead people to support cannabis deregulation or

670
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 2: cannabis you know laws, even if they don't agree on

671
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 2: anything else.

672
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 5: And you can induce someone to give birth, but you

673
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 5: didn't put the baby in them.

674
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 4: You know what I mean.

675
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, I don't mean to be crass, but like

676
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 5: induced I think is an important term here.

677
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,919
Speaker 4: It triggers something that's already there. And maybe I'm not.

678
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 5: An expert here, but that's what it seems to be

679
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 5: to me in this case. And I'm not trying to

680
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 5: be a cannabis apologist here either, but the word induced

681
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 5: implies to me that it is something that is triggering

682
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 5: a condition that maybe needed a catalyst to like kind

683
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 5: of rear it's ugly head.

684
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 4: Potentially, it's just it's how it hits me.

685
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,439
Speaker 5: And again, not an expert here, anxious to hear more

686
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:53,959
Speaker 5: of what the experts have to say.

687
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 2: We had the so we pulled that general psychosis definition

688
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 2: from the National Institute of Mental Health, and we're not

689
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 2: even sure how many people develop some type of psychosis

690
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 2: each year in the US. We know a little bit

691
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 2: about age range late teens through mid twenties, which is

692
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 2: why the Andrew example I think is pretty relevant here.

693
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 2: We know that in general, with general psychosis, there will

694
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: be warning signs that emerge in advance of the development

695
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 2: or the break. You know, suspiciousness, paranoid ideology, which I

696
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 2: find a little bit subjective, trouble with thinking clearly and logically.

697
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:37,720
Speaker 2: You call it brain fog. Social withdrawing decline and self

698
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 2: care disruptionist sleep, things like that. But CIP differs from

699
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 2: general psychosis because it is defined as psychosis triggered within minutes, hours,

700
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 2: or days of smoking or consuming marijuana. So we're not

701
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 2: even sure. Science is not even sure about what the

702
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 2: time window means. Right do you take to are you

703
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 2: playing sublime? You spoke two joints in the morning, and

704
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 2: then you are fine for two days and then you

705
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 2: lose it? You know what I mean? When this is

706
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 2: why critics might say this is a misleading defense, you

707
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 2: know what I mean. We're not casting any aspersion on

708
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 2: the people who have been diagnosed with that or have

709
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 2: been found to commit actions under that. We're telling you

710
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 2: what the critics would say. They're saying it's convenient.

711
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 3: We Yale School of Medicine. It comes with very similar things,

712
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 3: saying that short term psychosis is a possibility in anyone

713
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 3: that consumes THHC, like it is a possible thing until

714
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 3: that THC is fully metabolized in the body. But again,

715
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 3: that's like a sliding scale, right most everything now we're

716
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 3: discussing mental health, there is a sliding scale when you're

717
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 3: describing whatever that thing is. And they're also showing again,

718
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,359
Speaker 3: as you said, all that age range stuff. But they're

719
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 3: also discussing, I guess, the timing between doses. So if

720
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 3: you're some if you're an individual that ingests THHC on

721
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,760
Speaker 3: a regular basis, at least the l School of Medicine,

722
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 3: and it's one other the Connecticut Department of Mental Health,

723
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 3: they're saying the time in between doses matters when it

724
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 3: comes to at least their findings on the potential to

725
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 3: develop psychosis in this way.

726
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 2: They also say fifteen percent of all new cases of

727
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 2: psychosis are attributable to cannabis.

728
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:35,760
Speaker 3: Use, which which is high.

729
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 2: It does feel high, yeah, and it also you know,

730
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:43,399
Speaker 2: we have to remember, we have to remember that there

731
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 2: is the shadow of propaganda, right that is intergenerational. It's

732
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 2: around today. Nineteen thirty six is not that different from

733
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, especially when you look at bad things

734
00:42:55,239 --> 00:43:00,040
Speaker 2: that happen. We know there might be a way to

735
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 2: get our heads around it. But here's part of why

736
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 2: some of these recent rulings were so controversial. The father

737
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 2: of the man who was killed in California later stated

738
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 2: something I really stayed with all of us and said, look,

739
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 2: this judge quote just gave everyone in the state of

740
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:22,320
Speaker 2: California who smokes marijuana a license to kill someone, which

741
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 2: you know, there is a man suffering tremendous loss passed words.

742
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 2: You know his spouse had also passed away fairly recently.

743
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 2: But if you look at the science, if you look

744
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 2: at the experts, they're arguing that CIP does seem to

745
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:45,359
Speaker 2: be not just real, but on the rise escalating. So

746
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 2: what gives? Maybe we take a break for a word

747
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 2: from our sponsors before we delve into the somewhat disturbing facts,

748
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 2: and we have returned. Long story short the headline. It's

749
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,800
Speaker 2: something that old hippies have been telling us for years.

750
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,240
Speaker 2: Cannabis is both more accessible and a lot more powerful

751
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 2: or potent than it used to be. Have you guys

752
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,879
Speaker 2: ever had that conversation with an older head.

753
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:17,439
Speaker 4: I suppose so yeah.

754
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 5: I mean, certainly a lot of people that grew up

755
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 5: smoking weed back in the day they find the current

756
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 5: stuff to be too strong because it can have more

757
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 5: of a psychedelic effect, more of a experience akin to

758
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,839
Speaker 5: being on hallucinogens at properly high doses, and especially when

759
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 5: you start dealing with things like edibles where you can.

760
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 5: You know, it's measured in milligrams, and people can accidentally

761
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 5: take a heroic dose of THHC edibles and all of

762
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 5: a sudden they truly do feel like they're you know,

763
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 5: tripping on you know, LSD or something.

764
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, unexpectedly deep water. Right, the days of shagweed are over.

765
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 3: Shack weed, Oh, shag weed, I really, I really just

766
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 3: got this picture of shack.

767
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 5: I'm sure many a weed plan has been grown in

768
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 5: a shack or two in its day, but especially the

769
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 5: swag I think might be the word you're looking for, Ben,

770
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 5: But shag is good to shack weed.

771
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 2: That's called I've heard called dirt weed, ditch weed, skunk weed.

772
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 4: Yes, swag was always what we called it growing up.

773
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 4: I think you're absolutely right. All of these are standings.

774
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 2: It's probably just because it wasn't legal.

775
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 5: We were growing up a million percent and then your

776
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 5: little little dealer could just make up whatever name you

777
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 5: would have to pretend it was good. And that was

778
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 5: also the type of stuff where you would get those

779
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 5: massive seeds that if you caught one accidentally and you know,

780
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 5: while you were smoking, it would pop knock your blocks.

781
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 2: With I always say shwag s c h w ag

782
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:49,800
Speaker 2: is sure.

783
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 3: I think I have heard that. I always think about

784
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 3: what Joey Diaz called it, which was Susquehanna weed, which

785
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 3: was referring to some locality near him that I did

786
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 3: I never understood, but I enjoyed that reference. But guys,

787
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 3: I just had I would have to say, from my

788
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 3: personal experience, I have felt that thing you were describing Noll,

789
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 3: that like out of body crazy experience, from the slightest

790
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:18,800
Speaker 3: amount of THHC in my body when I was younger.

791
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 3: And you know, if you look at what at least

792
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 3: what the experts are saying, if you have the genetic

793
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 3: markers for something like schizophrenia or some other disorders like this,

794
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 3: ingesting THHD at all can heavily increase your risks of

795
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 3: developing those or even speeding up your development of those.

796
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,320
Speaker 3: Or it's almost like if it would be a dormant

797
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 3: trait in you. When you take in THHD, you're increasing

798
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:52,720
Speaker 3: the probability that something like that arises, which is really

799
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 3: interesting because it's not just THHC, it's everything emphetamines, hallucinogens, opioids,

800
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,879
Speaker 3: any kind of sedatives. Basically, you take any substance that's

801
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 3: going to be mind altering, and you've already got that

802
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 3: stuff going on, as you said, kind of latent, it

803
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,800
Speaker 3: increases the probability that that could happen.

804
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,280
Speaker 5: Well, you know, my father kind of late in life,

805
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 5: he was an alcoholic. He stopped drinking and stopped smoking

806
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 5: and didn't even take to drink coffee with caffeine in it,

807
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 5: you know, from his late thirties up until his mid

808
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 5: fifties when he kind of had a psychiatric break situation

809
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 5: and all of a sudden, So he was obviously predisposed

810
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,799
Speaker 5: to that, like you're saying, Matt, but he was all

811
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 5: of a sudden went from not touching a drug to

812
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:42,359
Speaker 5: being prescribed by professional physicians a combination of amphetamines and

813
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 5: diabnzo diazepins, you know, which is like a weird kind

814
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 5: of medical speedball in a way. And I'm pretty convinced

815
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:55,320
Speaker 5: that that led to his exacerbated mental decline that ultimately

816
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 5: resulted in him taking his own life.

817
00:47:58,040 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 4: Jeez, I mean, I'm just sorry.

818
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:02,399
Speaker 5: I don't mean to talk about personal stuff too much,

819
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 5: but I think it's a teachable moment because I really

820
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,359
Speaker 5: am convinced that that is what happened. It pushed him

821
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 5: what was supposed to help him actually made it far,

822
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 5: far worse.

823
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 2: And this leads us to unfortunately, that is a that

824
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:20,760
Speaker 2: is a story that many people in the audience today

825
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 2: can personally relate to and it may have had their

826
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 2: own similar experiences. We do know that there are studies

827
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 2: that appear to quantify and back this up. There's a

828
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:37,760
Speaker 2: great interview you can read with doctor David Schreiber speaking

829
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 2: with CBS News a few years back. He's a psychiatrist

830
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 2: as well as the CEO and co founder of placed

831
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 2: called the Compass Health Center, and he said that in

832
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 2: the US since twenty nineteen, studies have shown an increase

833
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 2: of emergency room visits that are the result of cannabis.

834
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 2: In one way or another, someone has taken cannabis, they

835
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 2: felt so high or they felt so out in such

836
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 2: a bad way that they bit the bullet of maybe

837
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 2: getting in legal trouble and went to the emergency room.

838
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 2: A fifty percent increase of adverse events as a result

839
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,439
Speaker 2: of cannabis use, and then it's supplying in other parts

840
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 2: of the world to and Ontario er visits for cannabis

841
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 2: related psychosis rose two hundred and twenty percent from twenty

842
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,359
Speaker 2: fourteen to twenty twenty one.

843
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:31,280
Speaker 4: It's because it's a damn strong.

844
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:35,919
Speaker 2: I think it's because it's strong. It's also available, more available. Yeah,

845
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 2: it's Shreiver says there were eleven states in twenty nineteen

846
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 2: that legalized recreational use of cannabis. By the end of

847
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four that numbers should go up to twenty nine.

848
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 2: And in addition, in step with this rise of availability,

849
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 2: we see a rise in potency. In ten nineties, which

850
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 2: was a distressingly long time ago THC and cannabis like,

851
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 2: the potency was around four percent, and now the number

852
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,840
Speaker 2: is closer to twenty percent on average, so five times

853
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 2: more than usual. It's deeper water than people are used

854
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 2: to swimming in. As a result, you could compare it

855
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,919
Speaker 2: in some ways to the experience of a person who

856
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:31,320
Speaker 2: used certain opioids right for a time and then quit

857
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 2: after they had acquired a tolerance. Their tolerance disappeared, they

858
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 2: returned to it one day, and it has effects that

859
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:41,839
Speaker 2: they had not reckoned on experiencing.

860
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, even compare it to I would say beer.

861
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 3: When my dad was growing up, beer that existed was

862
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 3: you know, either like near beer or non alcoholic right

863
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 3: that he experienced when he was younger. We just talked

864
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,360
Speaker 3: about this, or when you get up to it, you

865
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 3: got like your larger brands, like your Budweiser's and your

866
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 3: Miller's and all these things that were available to him

867
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 3: as he's going through his you know, exploring what beer

868
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 3: is and drinking beer. Imagine like when I don't know

869
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 3: about you guys, but when I turned twenty one and

870
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 3: had my first beer, it was a Sweetwater, right, And

871
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 3: that's around the time when we were that's an Atlanta

872
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,760
Speaker 3: brewing company. That's around the time that we were starting

873
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 3: to see large variations in the alcohol content of a

874
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 3: beer that you could go and buy from a store.

875
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 3: And I do like, you can go down you can

876
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 3: get a thirteen percent beer in a can, you know exactly,

877
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 3: which which is like twice, if not three times as

878
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 3: strong as something that you probably would have had access

879
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:49,320
Speaker 3: to in I don't know, the nineteen seventies nineteen eighties.

880
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 2: It's probably it's also still easier for underage people to

881
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 2: obtain cannabis than it is to obtain alcohol.

882
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, it was easier for underage people to obtain

883
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 5: oxy content that was alcohol.

884
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 3: But I guess just what I mean is that that

885
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 3: potential shock of oh I didn't know how strong this was, right.

886
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 3: I just see it in a lot of things nowadays,

887
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:20,359
Speaker 3: as companies try and I think, concentrate stuff to have

888
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:23,959
Speaker 3: that almost like a product that stands out or something.

889
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:26,320
Speaker 5: Bro it's it's what they're doing with peppers, spicy stuff,

890
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 5: you know, roller.

891
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 2: Coasters, and it's the story of American culture really the biggest,

892
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 2: the best, where the country that tried cocaine and said

893
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:35,839
Speaker 2: needs a little more kick.

894
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

895
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 5: Oh, they have these cannabis cups in the same way

896
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:40,840
Speaker 5: they have for anything where they you know, you the

897
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 5: job is of of these companies is to have the

898
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 5: most purest, most potent products. And now it's all regulated

899
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 5: and it's a lot you know. They don't have to

900
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 5: do it behind in the shadows, you know.

901
00:52:55,880 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 2: And while a large swath of America tends to regard

902
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 2: cannabis in a less antagonistic light, there might be people

903
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,240
Speaker 2: who say, you know, well, I don't want my kids smoking,

904
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:10,840
Speaker 2: and I don't want to hang out with people who smoke,

905
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 2: leaeder take edibles. But I don't think it's terrible. I

906
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 2: don't think it's going to end civilization right or launch

907
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 2: renewed interest in jazz. God forbid rights. Yeah, it's it's apocalyptic,

908
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 2: isn't it. And these two big changes and availability and

909
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 2: potency have pushed folks to reassess the situation in a

910
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 2: way that's less bound to the cynical propaganda of old.

911
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 2: We also know during COVID there may have been something

912
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 2: There may have been yet another comorbid factor here because

913
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:46,880
Speaker 2: people weren't getting the care and treatment they needed for

914
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 2: psychiatric issues, which meant they would end up self medicating.

915
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 2: And as many of us listening unfortunately no firsthand, cannabis

916
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:59,439
Speaker 2: is one of the top go to substances people used

917
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 2: to self meta. There's also alcohol and any number of

918
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:03,399
Speaker 2: other substances.

919
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 5: And again we're not being a proponent of one or

920
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 5: the other or any of those things, but there are

921
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 5: a lot of people that might try to self medicay

922
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 5: not knowing that there are very different strains of cannabis,

923
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 5: that there are kinds that do focus more on the

924
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 5: headier aspects of the drug the substance, and they can

925
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 5: make it called I believe that's sativa, which can make

926
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 5: people more on the I don't know, they lean more

927
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 5: towards that psychedelic experience that I was describing. And then

928
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 5: there's Indico, which some people call sleepy time weed, and

929
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 5: it helps you get sleep if you have insomnia. Then

930
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:40,879
Speaker 5: there's also hybrids that are a combination of the two,

931
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 5: but the really heavy sativas that is pure borderline hallucination

932
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 5: material if you're not careful, especially if you eat it

933
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 5: in edible form at a really high you know, milligram.

934
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 2: Which again is difficult to it's difficult to understand if

935
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 2: there's consistency in the dosage for the milligrams and a

936
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:04,760
Speaker 2: lot of edibles. And shout out to Indica, the street

937
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 2: name into couch that.

938
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I don't think there's a there's an analog

939
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,400
Speaker 5: joke for sativa, but Sativa is the one that tends

940
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 5: to be the heavier, kind of more like, oh my gosh,

941
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 5: what's going on in my head kind of vibe.

942
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 2: And so we have arguably an insidious perfect storm with

943
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:26,799
Speaker 2: some people trying to get through COVID or trying to

944
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 2: get through that lockdown. They may have a pre existing

945
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 2: condition of some sort. They're self medicating by ingesting cannabis,

946
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:39,239
Speaker 2: and the logic is that this may have accelerated. Again,

947
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 2: this may have had this interaction that might not affect

948
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 2: other people, but if they had certain genetic predispositions or

949
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 2: behavioral dispositions towards some mental issues, then cannabis could put

950
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:57,360
Speaker 2: some high octane gas on the fire. And you know

951
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:01,239
Speaker 2: that's not even counting of course, younger people ingesting cannabis.

952
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 2: Science is still trying to figure out how the human

953
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 2: brain develops, and we know that's happening because every few

954
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:12,919
Speaker 2: years a study comes out and just says, well, actually,

955
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 2: we don't think the brain is fully developed at this

956
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 2: point in time. Another compounding issue is the science on

957
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:24,760
Speaker 2: conditions like schizophrenia, auditory hallucinations and so on. That stuff

958
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,319
Speaker 2: is still in progress as well. There's still much more

959
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 2: that needs to be learned about that. The relationship between

960
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:33,960
Speaker 2: cannabis and mental health is therefore complicated. Individual cases vary

961
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:36,880
Speaker 2: so widely. There's not a silver bullet answer. You know,

962
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 2: there's not a one size fits all approach to this.

963
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 4: We know that heavy.

964
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:46,840
Speaker 2: Cannabis use can have certain adverse effects, you know, physical health.

965
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 2: It's not great to smoke all the time. If you're smoking,

966
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 2: you can also have memory issues and stuff. But I

967
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 2: don't know, do we have We're almost sewing this up.

968
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 2: Do we have any last words? I'd love to end

969
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 2: with mental health resources?

970
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 5: Absolutely, And I dig just want to point out that, like,

971
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:11,359
Speaker 5: there are studies out there that show there there are

972
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 5: real correlations here between you know, folks developing early onset

973
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 5: dementia and and and regular cannabis use. And you know

974
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:21,960
Speaker 5: that nothing happens in a vacuum. You all choices that

975
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 5: you make. There may be ramifications down the line, like

976
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,680
Speaker 5: hopefully it doesn't result in you, in one moment of

977
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 5: being peer pressured, you know, having a psychotic break that

978
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 5: causes you to murder somebody. But these things that we

979
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,439
Speaker 5: that are so now available and maybe seemingly destigmatized, they

980
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 5: it's not like you can just do whatever you want

981
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:46,120
Speaker 5: and expect there not to potentially be some bill that

982
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 5: comes due at some point. That's true for alcohol, that's

983
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 5: true for eating. You know, that's true for any vice.

984
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 5: I suppose, right.

985
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't really, I don't know. But just one

986
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 3: thing I wanted to say is I think we kind

987
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 3: of forget that cannabis is like a drug, a little

988
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 3: bit like alcohol, where sometimes again it's not debilitating the

989
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 3: way I've found alcohol to be when I'm like super

990
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 3: super intoxicated to where I'm definitely not making good decisions.

991
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 3: I would just say we kind of forget sometimes because

992
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 3: of the way maybe popular culture thinks about cannabis that

993
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 3: you can make a bad decision on that stuff in

994
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:33,479
Speaker 3: the same in a less controlled way than you would

995
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 3: have if you weren't under you know, any substance, right,

996
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 3: Which doesn't mean it's going to do that every time.

997
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 4: Just a whole pound cake for example.

998
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 3: Well, or I mean not joking doing something socially with someone,

999
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 3: or you know that y're around at the time that

1000
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:52,480
Speaker 3: you are high that you wouldn't do with that person

1001
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 3: if you weren't.

1002
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:57,000
Speaker 5: I disagree with you a tiny bit there. I mean,

1003
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 5: I just feel like the inhibition lowering quality of alcohol

1004
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:05,320
Speaker 5: are just so much more all encompassing than the inhibition

1005
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 5: lowering qualities of cannabis. To me, it's like the negatives

1006
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 5: are like, you know, the munchies or some kind. And

1007
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 5: I'm not saying the things you're describing aren't real, and

1008
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:16,760
Speaker 5: they certainly can happen, I imagine for others, but in

1009
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:19,919
Speaker 5: general my experience with folks, it just kind of makes

1010
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 5: people a little goofy and maybe talk too much or something,

1011
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 5: or like say something they wouldn't have normally said. I

1012
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 5: can't imagine someone who wasn't already going to do something

1013
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 5: nefarious being coerced by marijuana use into like date raping somebody.

1014
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 3: I don't That's certainly not what I was saying. Like what,

1015
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 3: I guess what.

1016
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 5: I'm saying that as an extreme example, that's all I think.

1017
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 3: You know, I definitely am not thinking those extremes. But

1018
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 3: I guess we forget that it is a substance that

1019
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 3: changes your brain a little bit. Thc is, it's psychoactive,

1020
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 3: So just you know, just be aware of that when

1021
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:02,560
Speaker 3: you're using.

1022
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:09,760
Speaker 2: And I'm an ardent fan or enthusiast of decriminalization. Simply

1023
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:14,680
Speaker 2: simply put, without getting into any of my personal experiences

1024
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:17,920
Speaker 2: or feelings, it's one of the best ways to cripple

1025
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 2: organized crime, right, including factions of the government that, in

1026
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 2: my opinion, engage in something very close to organized crime

1027
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 2: to pay out. Hey, you look at it. I walk

1028
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:29,640
Speaker 2: down the street from that one.

1029
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 4: But it's true capitalism. Well I don't know.

1030
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 5: At least organized crime knows what it is and calls

1031
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 5: it like it is. I feel like what you're describing

1032
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:41,400
Speaker 5: bit is almost worse because it's like masquerading as something

1033
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 5: else that's here to.

1034
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 4: Like help people.

1035
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:48,120
Speaker 2: But they know, right, they know, and we also know that. Look,

1036
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 2: not everything is for everyone. There are plenty of people

1037
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 2: who swear by their cannabis routines and they say, Hey,

1038
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 2: I'm more at peace, I'm happier, I'm motivating, and I'm stable,

1039
01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:00,440
Speaker 2: et cetera. I found something some sort of redom that

1040
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:03,439
Speaker 2: works with me. And that means the answers are never

1041
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 2: as simple as we prefer. We have to be very careful.

1042
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:09,960
Speaker 2: We cannot dismiss one person's experience because it doesn't jibe

1043
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:13,360
Speaker 2: with somebody else's. People are different and all equally important.

1044
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:15,520
Speaker 2: So what we can do, I would say, what we

1045
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:18,560
Speaker 2: must do is practice empathy and kindness and maybe we

1046
01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 2: end it here. If you or someone you know is

1047
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:23,560
Speaker 2: struggling with mental health issues, please know there are tons

1048
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 2: of helpful, free resources out there in the US, out

1049
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:28,680
Speaker 2: there in your neck of the global woods. You can

1050
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:33,360
Speaker 2: reach out directly, confidentially, anonymously at eight sixty six nine

1051
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 2: zero three three seven eighty seven. That is the That

1052
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:41,360
Speaker 2: is the National Mental Health hotline. They're always open. There's

1053
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:44,280
Speaker 2: someone there for you. Be safe, folks. We want to

1054
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 2: hear your thoughts about this because we touched on a

1055
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:49,760
Speaker 2: lot of things here. We try to be easy to

1056
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 2: find online.

1057
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 4: Correct.

1058
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 5: You can find us to the handle Conspiracy Stuff, where

1059
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 5: we exist on Facebook, where we have our Facebook group.

1060
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 5: Here's where it gets crazy. Join the conversation there, sling

1061
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:01,440
Speaker 5: around some memes, have a You can also find us

1062
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:06,200
Speaker 5: that handle on YouTube, where we release videos on the weekly. Finally,

1063
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:10,480
Speaker 5: you can find us on x FKA, Twitter, on Instagram

1064
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 5: and TikTok. We are Conspiracy Stuff.

1065
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 3: Show call one eight three three std WYTK. Leave us

1066
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 3: a voicemail, give yourself a cool nickname, and then you've

1067
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:23,160
Speaker 3: got three minutes say whatever you'd like do include if

1068
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 3: we can use your voice and message on the air.

1069
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 3: If you got more to say than can fit in

1070
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 3: that three minutes and one out, instead, send us a

1071
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 3: good old fashioned email.

1072
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:51,480
Speaker 2: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1073
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 3: Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production

1074
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:58,360
Speaker 3: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1075
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:01,320
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.