WEBVTT - The ABCs of Big Oil | Ben Franta Talks to Us About Big Oil on Campus 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:28.200 Welcome back to Drill. I'm Amy Westerveldt Darna Nor from 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:32.720 Arthur and I are still working on pulling together another 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.400 episode for our education series around what can be done 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:41.000 about this problem of the fossil fuel industry infiltrating schools. 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:44.360 In the meantime, I wanted to bring you the extended 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:49.000 version of my interview with Ben Fronta, the Stanford University 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:52.840 researcher we heard from last time, who discovered how much 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:57.080 fossil fuel interests we're shaping our understanding of economics in 0:00:57.120 --> 0:00:59.880 this country. Ben got into a lot more detail about 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:03.080 things that he has seen at the university level. I 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:07.080 think you'll find it interesting that conversation is coming up 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:42.520 right after this quick break. This episode is supported by 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:47.640 Degrees Real Talk about Planet Saving Careers, an original podcast 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:51.640 from the Environmental Defense Fund. People ask me all the 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:55.640 time what they can do about climate change, and I 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:59.240 feel a little bit like a climate change guidance counselor 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:03.440 sun time. The short answer is, what do you get at? 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:04.720 What are you interested in? 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:08.200 Where can you plug in? 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I got a sneak preview of 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:43.400 season three of Degrees, and I loved it, especially the 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:48.160 episode about Lake Street Drive, which is a green band, 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:50.960 which is actually a lot harder to pull off than 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:53.880 you might think, just in terms of all of the 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:58.160 disposable things that come along with touring and concerts and 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:02.240 music venues, trying to convey venues to reduce their waste, 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.200 all of that stuff travel, How do you figure that out? 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:07.520 It was really good and there's lots more where that 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:10.560 came from, too. These narrative stories will capture your attention 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:13.840 and inspire you while giving you practical tips on how 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:17.920 to get a climate focused career. 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I was super interested 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:36.920 to read your paper because actually Darna and I were 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.400 just saying, wow, like I was pulling together a list 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:44.080 of you know, all of the things that either fossil 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:47.880 fuel companies or you know, sort of foundations that have 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.680 represented them or their interests are investing in at universities, 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:56.520 and you know, there's so many of these economics research 0:03:56.720 --> 0:04:01.000 chairs and economic centers and whatever that I was like, 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:02.800 I feel like we need to find we need to like, 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:07.160 you know, dig into the ways that they're trying to 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:12.160 shape people's understanding of the economy and how it works. 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.040 And then I found actually in the Newsome archives this 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:22.719 insane like cross industry strategy with like confidential stamps all 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:26.960 over it that was like in as World War Two 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:29.080 was about to end, all of these it was like 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:32.960 Standard Oil, GM, General Electric. I can't remember what the 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:35.200 other ones were, but they were all freaking out, maybe 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:39.920 Ford about that. Not that you know, they were going 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:42.640 to have a decline in sales because the government wasn't buying. 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:43.480 Stuff from them anymore. 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:48.159 They were worried that Americans, because the government had done 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:52.040 such a good job of running everything during World War Two, 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:56.520 that Americans would turn away from the idea of free enterprise. 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.480 Oh and they were like, this is the number one 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:05.800 problem facing every industry, like all hands on deck. 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:11.000 So yeah, the problem was that the government was too 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:15.599 competent based on and they didn't like how that looked. Yes, 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:17.440 that's so interesting. 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:21.200 They were like, uh, oh, Americans might have actually really 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:27.599 enjoyed this competent government over the last few years. You know. 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:29.000 I think it's only. 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:32.280 A matter of time before the more you learn, the 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:36.880 more you start to suspect that corporations have controlled your 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:42.320 entire perception of reality from like the moment you're born. Yes, 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:45.080 oh my god, what is even real? 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.680 It is so disturbing, and I also just. 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:52.280 You just yeah, you just see so many of the 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:56.200 talking points that you still see today, you know, kind 0:05:56.240 --> 0:06:00.280 of being I don't know, being dreampt up and and 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:01.479 sent out back then. 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:05.960 Well it's so you know, the the PR techniques, they're 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:11.760 so smart and going like one or more steps above 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:14.440 the level of just the thing they're trying to sell 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:18.720 in terms of awareness, and like my. 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:23.840 Fav like, they shaped the context, right, Yeah. 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:26.880 It's sort of like yeah, I mean, don't sell don't 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:30.760 don't sell water, put people in a desert, right right. 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:35.599 I think my favorite example was in that propaganda book, 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:39.839 Brene's talks about when he worked for like the piano industry, 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:46.160 and he's instead of putting ads for pianos into like magazines, 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:52.320 he's like, I went to architecture magazines and got them 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:58.320 to like from highlight and talk about these celebrities homes 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:01.880 that had a music room in them, Wow, the piano 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:04.560 room in them. And then that became like the defined 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:07.119 as like the American dream sort of like you needed 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:09.760 to have a music room, need to have a piano room. 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:13.920 And then it was like people would buy houses with 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:16.000 a piano room. They didn't know how to play the piano, 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:17.320 but they were like, now we need to get a 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:19.960 piano for the piano room. But they never even had 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:25.520 to advertise pianos. Yeah, it was like what, like, it's 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:27.440 so I mean, it's just so smart. 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:28.480 It's so smart. 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:30.760 I can't remember where I read this, if it was 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:34.080 there or somewhere else. The watch example, the like pocket 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:35.800 watches and wrist watches. 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:36.440 I'm not sure. 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:39.920 Okay, this watch. 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.480 Manufacturer came to him and to help them, like they 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:45.480 wanted to see if they could break down the gender 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:49.960 taboo about men wearing wristwatches because apparently at the time, 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:52.760 it was like if you were a wrist watch, you 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:56.000 were gay, Like only women wore wristwatches, and like real 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:57.920 men had pocket watches and whatever. 0:07:58.040 --> 0:07:59.960 And so he commissioned a rapport. 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:03.320 Who knows if it was like even valid, but he 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:07.440 commissioned a report like that US soldiers. Well, first he 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:09.040 was like, who's the most. 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:10.960 Manly man soldiers? 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:14.360 And then he was like, okay, US soldiers are getting 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.160 picked off in the trenches when they light a match 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:20.800 to look at their pocket watch. And so he convinced 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:24.040 the army to make wristwatches standard issue. 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:26.520 Yeah, and there you go. 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:30.320 It became like a masculine accessory. Just like this guy 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:31.280 was so smart. 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:33.199 Yeah, he was very. 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:36.200 Much you know, he knew he was smart and like 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:38.040 really liked being smarter than me. 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:45.280 Yeah exactly. I mean yeah, it's kind of a godlike 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:49.839 yeah sort of feeling, probably to think that you're shaping 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:55.559 people's like fundamental perceptions about you know, what's cool, what's 0:08:55.640 --> 0:09:00.559 not cool, what's masculine, what's good, all of that stuff off, right, 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:03.720 I mean, yeah, they're making decisions that they think are 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:04.160 their own. 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:10.199 Yes, yeah, I mean about about you know, like silly 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:13.080 things like what kind of watch you're going to have, 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:15.200 but then also about really big things. 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:19.000 I mean, that's the thing that I find so interesting too, 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:21.440 is it's sort of like the same techniques, whether they're 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:38.400 trying to sell watches or you know, policy. So I 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:42.640 was hoping to get you talking about I have I 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:45.080 think I have you telling me this story a long 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.000 time ago on really bad phone tape. 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:49.160 But when you were at Harvard and you. 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:53.120 Realized that the Harvard Kennedy School had a lot of 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:56.680 fossil fuel funding, and I think it was you that 0:09:56.760 --> 0:10:00.600 said that someone didn't want students to talk to reporters 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:02.160 about having that funding. 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:10.640 Yeah, so now you're getting into the juicy details. This 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:13.880 is back yeah, spill the dirt, spill the beans. 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:14.959 Just kidding. 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:19.719 Yeah. Yeah. So this was back when I was a 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:23.000 grad student at Harvard and I was working at the 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:28.920 Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs, and you know 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:31.240 that's in the Kennedy School of Government. The role of 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:36.160 fossil fuel companies in academia had started to become a 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:41.280 bigger issue. And this was around probably like twenty fifteen 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:45.960 or so. For instance, I think you know when the 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:51.160 Journalist School journalism school at Columbia came out with the 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:56.040 Exon New Investigation or they started doing some work related 0:10:56.080 --> 0:11:02.000 to that. Then Exxon responded by kind of threatening to 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:05.520 take away their funding in so many words, and it 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:09.080 just people became more and more interested in you know, 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:15.400 who's who's funding these these programs at universities, and you know, 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:18.559 is it fossil fuel companies? And what kind of pressure 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:22.280 does that put on those academic programs to do one 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:24.480 thing or another, or study one thing or another, or 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:28.240 or not to study something. And I started to look 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:32.800 into this issue at Harvard, looking at what programs are 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:37.440 funded by by oil companies, and a lot of the 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:42.080 programs at the Kennedy School, the Government school to do 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:44.880 with public policy were funded and as far as I 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:48.160 still know, as I know, they still are funded by 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:53.240 big oil companies. You know, for example, I worked at 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:56.559 the Belfer Center for Science International Affairs. It's one of 0:11:56.600 --> 0:12:00.760 the most influential academic think tanks in the world world, 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:06.880 and the founder of that founded an oil and gas company. 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.080 That's how he made his fortune to begin with. The 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:14.679 environmental economics program at Harvard funded by oil companies and 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.840 so on. So it's not just that public policy schools 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:24.240 are being funded by oil companies. Sometimes it's that the 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:28.880 programs that are focused on climate or environment or sustainability 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:33.600 in particular, those are often funded by the oil companies. Now, 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:39.600 so back to twenty fifteen, so this issue is starting 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:43.120 to emerge. I'm starting to write about it a little bit, 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:47.840 and it was seen as a very unpopular thing to do. 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:53.080 Yes, I have, Yes, I remember you had quite a 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:56.640 like Twitter kerfuffle happened about this stuff, right, oh. 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:58.600 Yes, you know, and that was even years later. I 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:00.440 mean that was, you know, only a few years years ago. 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:03.800 And you know, at this early stage, it was seen 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:09.400 as just really uncouth to raise this issue. And I 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:14.160 even had, you know, professors at the Kennedy School who 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:17.439 just wouldn't talk to me, you know, I think because 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:19.920 they were upset that I was writing about the issue. 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:22.480 But anyway, to get to the main point. Once we 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.640 were called into an all staff meeting for the researchers 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:29.000 at the Kennedy School in the Belafare Center, and we 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:33.760 were simply told instructed that, you know, if any journalists 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:38.280 come to talk to us about you know, oil companies 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.800 funding the research done there, just don't talk to them, 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:44.680 you know, don't talk to the journalists. We don't want 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:47.679 you know, we were told that we don't want activists, 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:52.000 we don't want journalists digging around and and you know, 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:56.080 finding out that that the programs are being funded by 0:13:56.120 --> 0:14:02.920 oil companies, and I mean when I heard this, I 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:06.440 you know, I was pretty surprised that that level of 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:11.600 secrecy was being pursued. I mean, at that time, I 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:15.160 was mostly working in physics, because that's what my PhD was, 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:18.520 in applied physics. And you know, often we would get 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:22.440 funded from all sorts of places, including like Department of Defense, 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:27.400 sources that you know, not everybody would think are great. 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:33.760 But regardless, we always advertised and disclosed who was funding 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:36.320 our research, and we were generally proud of it, but 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:39.520 we definitely didn't keep it a secret, right And so, 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:44.560 you know, encountering this secrecy in the public policy space, 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:47.360 I just thought that was so strange. And of course 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:54.560 for me, you know, when they said don't talk about 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:58.600 this thing, you know, I wanted to talk about it. 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:02.080 My ears bricked up and I was like, you know, 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:04.520 I was, you know, probably dozing off in the back 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:09.000 or something, and I like, my you know, I popped 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:11.240 up alert and I was like, oh, that's something interesting 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:14.480 is going on. So yeah, you know, and but I 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:18.160 think it speaks to the broader issue, which is, which is, 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:23.000 to what degree have has the fossil fuel industry shaped 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:28.800 very public policy responses and paradigms and ways of thinking 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:32.320 about climate change as a problem. How has the industry 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:34.920 shaped those things at the basic level, at the level 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:39.600 of students learning about them and in universities, you know. 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:45.360 And I it's the these these questions, you know, as 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:49.160 we were just talking about, you know, burnets and other 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:55.440 masters of the craft of public perception, they're not just 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:58.320 shaped by you know, the final answer that you get 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:01.960 when you're analyzing a problem. It's shaped by how do 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:04.560 you even think about the problem in the first place? 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:11.040 What's the paradigm with through which you are seeing a 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:18.479 problem defining it? You know, And that's the level that's 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:23.440 the sort of all encompassing scale where that's relevant for 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:26.480 when people are learning about these issues in universities, you know, 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.360 among other scales, but that's a really important one. So 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.000 you know, I think, to me, that just speaks to 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:34.680 that broader issue. And of course I think since then, 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:39.880 finally now today there's more and more awareness that. Yes, 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:47.280 especially big oil companies have been very present in these elite, 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:52.640 very influential academic programs in the social sciences, in the 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:57.800 policy arena. And the question that's obvious that we should 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:02.960 ask is what effect has that had, right, What has 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:08.680 been the influence of decades of funding from these special interests. 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:14.400 Obviously there's a conflict of interest when these programs are 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:19.040 meant to defend society against the problems that these companies 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:22.680 are creating, and yet these programs are dependent on those 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:27.119 companies to exist. So it's a big issue and I 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:30.040 you know, I think the time it's more than ripe 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:31.639 to address it. 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:33.399 Yeah, can you talk. 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:36.080 About some of the other places that you have seen 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:39.080 this come up? I know that there there's kind of 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:42.879 oil funding at every every really every big universe you 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.159 can think of. But are there other, I guess public 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:50.639 policy or economics examples that you've found that were that 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:51.480 were surprising. 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:56.800 Yeah, So, you know, this latest research is a is 0:17:56.840 --> 0:18:00.800 one example some some new research that be out soon 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:03.760 and by the time this airs might already be out. 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:04.439 Yeah. 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:09.680 It tracks the activity of a group of economic consultants 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:15.600 who were hired by the petroleum industry for decades to 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:19.639 produce analyzes that were then used by the companies and 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:23.520 by others opposing restrictions on fossil fuels to tell the 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:26.800 public that it would just be way too expensive to 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:31.119 act on climate and that in any case, climate was 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:34.040 not going to be a big deal, so the best 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:36.560 thing to do is just do nothing. And this was 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:44.640 the economic ammunition that the industry used alongside their scientific 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:49.120 merchants of doubt. And so if you look back into 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:53.320 the newspaper record and you know that record of communication 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:59.280 from the oil companies, they often employed this two pronged 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:05.240 stress strategy of using the scientific merchants of doubt to 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:10.320 cast doubt on the science itself. And you know by them, 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:14.639 I mean the people that people like Naomi Orescus and 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:21.080 other historians, Eric Conway and other historians have have documented 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:24.960 and their think tanks like the George Marshall Institute and 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:29.320 so on. That's the scientific side to litigate the science. 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:33.800 Then on the economic side, you have the economists hired 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:37.520 by the patroleum industry often to say it's just way 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:42.280 too expensive to do anything. And so that's this other 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:47.760 side that has not been examined as much. Yeah, it's 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:52.600 really it has been allowed to survive. I think because 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:56.480 it hasn't been examined. It's sort of flown under the radar. 0:19:57.160 --> 0:19:57.440 Yeah. 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:03.720 And you know when I first noticed this, I was 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:09.919 really shocked because I first noticed this probably around maybe 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:14.199 three years ago, and I I was doing you know, 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:18.400 academic research. One thing I do in my historical research 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:24.840 is I'll download like the entire online newspaper record. For example, 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:28.840 I studied the American Petroleum Institute, and so I'll download 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:32.520 every newspaper article on an online database with the words 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.679 American Patrolling Institute and global warming or climate change in 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:38.520 their record. You know, that might be you know, a 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:42.200 few thousand articles, and I'll sort them in chronological order, 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:44.359 and I'll read all of them just to just to 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:47.320 get the story, just to see, you know, what are 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:50.560 their phases of communication, you know, what are the battles 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:54.199 they're fighting at different times. And I was doing that 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:57.800 over you know, it takes many days to read that 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:01.960 much material, but I was doing doing that and I 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:06.000 noticed that, huh, like these there are these economists that 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:09.439 keep coming up again and again. Wow, And I was like, 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:11.440 that's interesting, and this is you know, this was stuff 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:15.320 from like the early to mid nineteen nineties, so this 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:17.639 is a while ago. I thought, Oh, I'm sure they're not, 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:22.920 you know, doing stuff anymore. Then at the same time 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:26.840 I was doing this research, President Trump announced that the 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:28.920 US was going to pull out of the Paris Agreement. 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:33.600 And in his speech, I think this was in twenty seventeen, 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:37.479 he said that the Paris Agreement was going to cost 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:41.160 you know, an American family, you know, four thousand dollars 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:43.399 per year or something like that. You know, it's going 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:46.159 to cost a lot of money. And I thought, this 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:49.200 doesn't really make sense, because those parts of the Paris 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:52.040 Agreement are not legally binding to begin with. I thought, 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:56.080 who are the economists that are saying this? Who where 0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:59.480 where's this analysis coming from? To give President Trump the 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:02.680 talking points, you know, to say that in a speech. 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:09.159 And I looked up the economic analysis that that President 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:13.879 Trump used and it was the same people. It was 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:16.879 the same economists that I had that I had noticed. 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:21.120 We're working on these things in like the mid nineties, 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:25.600 doing giving the same talking points against the Kyoto Protocol 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:27.040 of course ninety seven. 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:31.480 God damn it, I swear that, like the Groundhog Day 0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:36.000 miss of all of that is so infuriating. It's just wow, 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:37.840 we're right back at the same place again, and the 0:22:37.880 --> 0:22:40.160 same thing is happening, and we still don't actually know 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:45.280 how it happened the first time. I know, And yet people, 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:47.480 I think I find this all the time that people 0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:49.840 are like, Okay, yeah, we know, we know. What are 0:22:49.840 --> 0:22:51.359 you going to work on next? And I'm like, I 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:52.280 don't think we do know. 0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:55.439 Actually I don't think we know. I think we've just 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:58.360 scratched the surface. Oh yeah, of what happened. 0:22:58.359 --> 0:23:02.439 Then you agree, what we have so far I think 0:23:02.720 --> 0:23:06.080 is just a faint trace of what has what occurred, 0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:09.359 And I mean there's much more. I mean, at least 0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:15.920 I feel like we're continuing to find important material, important 0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:19.920 records that reshape or understanding of what has happened. And 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:22.960 doesn't seem to be close to getting to that to 0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:26.399 the end of it, that's for sure. Yeah, you know, 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:29.040 and people forget it's you know, in the nineties, there 0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:35.560 were some some enterprising journalists who did notice the industry's 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:40.120 influence right at the time, and they, you know, they're heroes. 0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:45.120 They were saying things that nobody else was saying. They 0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:50.840 were seeing things no one else was seeing, and you know. Unfortunately, 0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:55.160 just not enough people listened to them at the time, 0:23:55.400 --> 0:24:00.320 so some people noticed, but not enough people noticed. And 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:03.520 so you know, just because one person noticed something at 0:24:03.560 --> 0:24:07.479 one time doesn't mean that everybody knows. Right, it's very 0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:09.240 important fact. 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:13.040 Did you look into the National Bureau of Economic Research. 0:24:13.520 --> 0:24:18.520 I haven't, ben I just started looking into them. And 0:24:18.880 --> 0:24:20.840 Exon Mobile is a funder of. 0:24:20.760 --> 0:24:22.640 Them now, uh huh. 0:24:22.680 --> 0:24:25.680 And the Bradley Foundation has funded them forever. They had 0:24:26.440 --> 0:24:29.240 donations for a long time from Scaife and Olin, all 0:24:29.280 --> 0:24:33.680 the usual suspects. But like I'm looking back now through 0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:37.240 the wayback machine to see exactly when Exon came on, 0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:44.280 so I can see like what exactly their influence has been. 0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:45.880 Because it's crazy. 0:24:45.920 --> 0:24:49.960 It's like those guys are like, you know, the president 0:24:50.040 --> 0:24:54.119 of the NBER is like the main I don't know, 0:24:54.160 --> 0:24:58.040 he's in charge of the economics program at MIT, so 0:24:58.280 --> 0:25:03.480 like vice president is like runs the economics department at Harvard. 0:25:03.640 --> 0:25:08.320 It's like every economics department at every major university is 0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:13.640 run by someone who's part of the NBER, which sounds 0:25:13.680 --> 0:25:16.439 and acts like it's some kind of neutral you know, 0:25:16.640 --> 0:25:20.520 or maybe government entity, but is ye at all And 0:25:21.359 --> 0:25:23.160 I'm just like, oh my gosh, these guys have been 0:25:23.200 --> 0:25:27.960 influencing like how people think about economics, you know, since 0:25:28.000 --> 0:25:34.440 the twenties, and they've been you know, funded by sort 0:25:34.480 --> 0:25:36.639 of titans of industry all along. 0:25:38.760 --> 0:25:41.240 Yeah, it's like how far back do you want to go? 0:25:41.480 --> 0:25:47.800 I mean the development of neoclassical economics, which basically asserted 0:25:48.800 --> 0:25:53.119 that you know, the economy, left to its own devices, 0:25:53.160 --> 0:25:57.280 would spontaneously find, you know, an equilibrium that was optimal 0:25:58.040 --> 0:26:03.119 for natural at least. Yeah, I mean you know, in 0:26:03.200 --> 0:26:07.639 many ways that was formulated as a scientific defense against Marxism, 0:26:08.160 --> 0:26:10.960 right right. You know, So it's like how far back 0:26:11.040 --> 0:26:13.919 do you want to go in terms of you know, 0:26:14.160 --> 0:26:20.000 special interests, moneyed interests, vested interests, corporate interests often you know, 0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:28.000 trying to cultivate certain scientific ideas for political advantage, you know. 0:26:28.119 --> 0:26:31.399 And I mean it goes back, you know, at least 0:26:31.400 --> 0:26:34.679 that far, you know, and it's been it's never stopped. 0:26:35.640 --> 0:26:35.960 Really. 0:26:36.000 --> 0:26:39.800 Like what you see is that the pr industry comes 0:26:39.840 --> 0:26:44.560 about right when, like right after the very very first 0:26:44.720 --> 0:26:48.960 regulation is passed on any industry in the US on 0:26:49.040 --> 0:26:51.840 the railroads and the late you know, late eighteen hundreds 0:26:52.560 --> 0:26:56.679 and right when people who don't look like the people 0:26:56.720 --> 0:26:59.679