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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Drill. I'm Amy Westerveldt Darna Nor from

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Speaker 1: Arthur and I are still working on pulling together another

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Speaker 1: episode for our education series around what can be done

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Speaker 1: about this problem of the fossil fuel industry infiltrating schools.

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Speaker 1: In the meantime, I wanted to bring you the extended

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Speaker 1: version of my interview with Ben Fronta, the Stanford University

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Speaker 1: researcher we heard from last time, who discovered how much

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Speaker 1: fossil fuel interests we're shaping our understanding of economics in

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Speaker 1: this country. Ben got into a lot more detail about

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Speaker 1: things that he has seen at the university level. I

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Speaker 1: think you'll find it interesting that conversation is coming up

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Speaker 1: right after this quick break. This episode is supported by

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Speaker 1: Degrees Real Talk about Planet Saving Careers, an original podcast

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Speaker 1: from the Environmental Defense Fund. People ask me all the

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Speaker 1: time what they can do about climate change, and I

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Speaker 1: feel a little bit like a climate change guidance counselor

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Speaker 1: sun time. The short answer is, what do you get at?

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Speaker 2: What are you interested in?

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Speaker 1: Where can you plug in? What I like about Degrees

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Speaker 1: is that it helps people figure out how they could

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Speaker 1: maybe use their job to make an impact Degrees features

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Speaker 1: candid conversations and takeaways from today's most inspiring climate change makers.

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Speaker 1: Each episode tells a story of how one inspiring change

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Speaker 1: maker found their climate career and how you can too.

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Speaker 1: There's a new season out now, season three, and it's

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Speaker 1: all about how, no matter the industry, you can find

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Speaker 1: a planet saving job. I got a sneak preview of

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Speaker 1: season three of Degrees, and I loved it, especially the

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Speaker 1: episode about Lake Street Drive, which is a green band,

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Speaker 1: which is actually a lot harder to pull off than

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Speaker 1: you might think, just in terms of all of the

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Speaker 1: disposable things that come along with touring and concerts and

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Speaker 1: music venues, trying to convey venues to reduce their waste,

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Speaker 1: all of that stuff travel, How do you figure that out?

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Speaker 1: It was really good and there's lots more where that

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Speaker 1: came from, too. These narrative stories will capture your attention

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Speaker 1: and inspire you while giving you practical tips on how

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Speaker 1: to get a climate focused career. Search for Degrees Real

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Speaker 1: talk about planet saving careers anywhere you listen to podcasts

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Speaker 1: will include a link in the show notes. Too Big

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Speaker 1: thanks to Degrees for their support. I was super interested

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Speaker 1: to read your paper because actually Darna and I were

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Speaker 1: just saying, wow, like I was pulling together a list

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Speaker 1: of you know, all of the things that either fossil

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Speaker 1: fuel companies or you know, sort of foundations that have

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Speaker 1: represented them or their interests are investing in at universities,

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Speaker 1: and you know, there's so many of these economics research

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Speaker 1: chairs and economic centers and whatever that I was like,

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Speaker 1: I feel like we need to find we need to like,

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Speaker 1: you know, dig into the ways that they're trying to

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Speaker 1: shape people's understanding of the economy and how it works.

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Speaker 1: And then I found actually in the Newsome archives this

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Speaker 1: insane like cross industry strategy with like confidential stamps all

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Speaker 1: over it that was like in as World War Two

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Speaker 1: was about to end, all of these it was like

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Speaker 1: Standard Oil, GM, General Electric. I can't remember what the

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Speaker 1: other ones were, but they were all freaking out, maybe

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Speaker 1: Ford about that. Not that you know, they were going

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Speaker 1: to have a decline in sales because the government wasn't buying.

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Speaker 3: Stuff from them anymore.

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Speaker 1: They were worried that Americans, because the government had done

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Speaker 1: such a good job of running everything during World War Two,

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Speaker 1: that Americans would turn away from the idea of free enterprise.

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Speaker 1: Oh and they were like, this is the number one

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Speaker 1: problem facing every industry, like all hands on deck.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, the problem was that the government was too

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Speaker 2: competent based on and they didn't like how that looked. Yes,

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Speaker 2: that's so interesting.

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Speaker 1: They were like, uh, oh, Americans might have actually really

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Speaker 1: enjoyed this competent government over the last few years. You know.

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Speaker 3: I think it's only.

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Speaker 2: A matter of time before the more you learn, the

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Speaker 2: more you start to suspect that corporations have controlled your

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Speaker 2: entire perception of reality from like the moment you're born. Yes,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, what is even real?

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Speaker 4: It is so disturbing, and I also just.

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Speaker 1: You just yeah, you just see so many of the

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Speaker 1: talking points that you still see today, you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of being I don't know, being dreampt up and and

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Speaker 1: sent out back then.

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Speaker 2: Well it's so you know, the the PR techniques, they're

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Speaker 2: so smart and going like one or more steps above

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Speaker 2: the level of just the thing they're trying to sell

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Speaker 2: in terms of awareness, and like my.

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Speaker 1: Fav like, they shaped the context, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It's sort of like yeah, I mean, don't sell don't

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Speaker 2: don't sell water, put people in a desert, right right.

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Speaker 2: I think my favorite example was in that propaganda book,

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Speaker 2: Brene's talks about when he worked for like the piano industry,

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Speaker 2: and he's instead of putting ads for pianos into like magazines,

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Speaker 2: he's like, I went to architecture magazines and got them

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Speaker 2: to like from highlight and talk about these celebrities homes

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Speaker 2: that had a music room in them, Wow, the piano

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Speaker 2: room in them. And then that became like the defined

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Speaker 2: as like the American dream sort of like you needed

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Speaker 2: to have a music room, need to have a piano room.

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Speaker 2: And then it was like people would buy houses with

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Speaker 2: a piano room. They didn't know how to play the piano,

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Speaker 2: but they were like, now we need to get a

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Speaker 2: piano for the piano room. But they never even had

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Speaker 2: to advertise pianos. Yeah, it was like what, like, it's

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Speaker 2: so I mean, it's just so smart.

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Speaker 3: It's so smart.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember where I read this, if it was

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Speaker 1: there or somewhere else. The watch example, the like pocket

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Speaker 1: watches and wrist watches.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure.

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Speaker 3: Okay, this watch.

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Speaker 1: Manufacturer came to him and to help them, like they

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Speaker 1: wanted to see if they could break down the gender

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Speaker 1: taboo about men wearing wristwatches because apparently at the time,

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Speaker 1: it was like if you were a wrist watch, you

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Speaker 1: were gay, Like only women wore wristwatches, and like real

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Speaker 1: men had pocket watches and whatever.

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Speaker 3: And so he commissioned a rapport.

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Speaker 1: Who knows if it was like even valid, but he

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Speaker 1: commissioned a report like that US soldiers. Well, first he

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Speaker 1: was like, who's the most.

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Speaker 3: Manly man soldiers?

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Speaker 1: And then he was like, okay, US soldiers are getting

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Speaker 1: picked off in the trenches when they light a match

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Speaker 1: to look at their pocket watch. And so he convinced

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Speaker 1: the army to make wristwatches standard issue.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and there you go.

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Speaker 1: It became like a masculine accessory. Just like this guy

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Speaker 1: was so smart.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he was very.

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Speaker 1: Much you know, he knew he was smart and like

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Speaker 1: really liked being smarter than me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. I mean yeah, it's kind of a godlike

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Speaker 2: yeah sort of feeling, probably to think that you're shaping

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Speaker 2: people's like fundamental perceptions about you know, what's cool, what's

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Speaker 2: not cool, what's masculine, what's good, all of that stuff off, right,

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, they're making decisions that they think are

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Speaker 2: their own.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, I mean about about you know, like silly

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Speaker 4: things like what kind of watch you're going to have,

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Speaker 4: but then also about really big things.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's the thing that I find so interesting too,

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Speaker 1: is it's sort of like the same techniques, whether they're

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Speaker 1: trying to sell watches or you know, policy. So I

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Speaker 1: was hoping to get you talking about I have I

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Speaker 1: think I have you telling me this story a long

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Speaker 1: time ago on really bad phone tape.

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Speaker 3: But when you were at Harvard and you.

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Speaker 1: Realized that the Harvard Kennedy School had a lot of

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Speaker 1: fossil fuel funding, and I think it was you that

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Speaker 1: said that someone didn't want students to talk to reporters

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Speaker 1: about having that funding.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so now you're getting into the juicy details. This

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Speaker 2: is back yeah, spill the dirt, spill the beans.

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Speaker 3: Just kidding.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So this was back when I was a

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Speaker 2: grad student at Harvard and I was working at the

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Speaker 2: Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs, and you know

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Speaker 2: that's in the Kennedy School of Government. The role of

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Speaker 2: fossil fuel companies in academia had started to become a

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Speaker 2: bigger issue. And this was around probably like twenty fifteen

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Speaker 2: or so. For instance, I think you know when the

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Speaker 2: Journalist School journalism school at Columbia came out with the

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Speaker 2: Exon New Investigation or they started doing some work related

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Speaker 2: to that. Then Exxon responded by kind of threatening to

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Speaker 2: take away their funding in so many words, and it

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Speaker 2: just people became more and more interested in you know,

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Speaker 2: who's who's funding these these programs at universities, and you know,

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Speaker 2: is it fossil fuel companies? And what kind of pressure

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Speaker 2: does that put on those academic programs to do one

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Speaker 2: thing or another, or study one thing or another, or

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Speaker 2: or not to study something. And I started to look

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Speaker 2: into this issue at Harvard, looking at what programs are

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Speaker 2: funded by by oil companies, and a lot of the

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Speaker 2: programs at the Kennedy School, the Government school to do

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Speaker 2: with public policy were funded and as far as I

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Speaker 2: still know, as I know, they still are funded by

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Speaker 2: big oil companies. You know, for example, I worked at

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Speaker 2: the Belfer Center for Science International Affairs. It's one of

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Speaker 2: the most influential academic think tanks in the world world,

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Speaker 2: and the founder of that founded an oil and gas company.

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Speaker 2: That's how he made his fortune to begin with. The

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Speaker 2: environmental economics program at Harvard funded by oil companies and

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Speaker 2: so on. So it's not just that public policy schools

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Speaker 2: are being funded by oil companies. Sometimes it's that the

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Speaker 2: programs that are focused on climate or environment or sustainability

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Speaker 2: in particular, those are often funded by the oil companies. Now,

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Speaker 2: so back to twenty fifteen, so this issue is starting

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Speaker 2: to emerge. I'm starting to write about it a little bit,

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Speaker 2: and it was seen as a very unpopular thing to do.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I have, Yes, I remember you had quite a

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Speaker 1: like Twitter kerfuffle happened about this stuff, right, oh.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you know, and that was even years later. I

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Speaker 2: mean that was, you know, only a few years years ago.

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Speaker 2: And you know, at this early stage, it was seen

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Speaker 2: as just really uncouth to raise this issue. And I

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Speaker 2: even had, you know, professors at the Kennedy School who

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Speaker 2: just wouldn't talk to me, you know, I think because

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Speaker 2: they were upset that I was writing about the issue.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, to get to the main point. Once we

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Speaker 2: were called into an all staff meeting for the researchers

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Speaker 2: at the Kennedy School in the Belafare Center, and we

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Speaker 2: were simply told instructed that, you know, if any journalists

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Speaker 2: come to talk to us about you know, oil companies

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Speaker 2: funding the research done there, just don't talk to them,

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Speaker 2: you know, don't talk to the journalists. We don't want

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Speaker 2: you know, we were told that we don't want activists,

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Speaker 2: we don't want journalists digging around and and you know,

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Speaker 2: finding out that that the programs are being funded by

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Speaker 2: oil companies, and I mean when I heard this, I

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Speaker 2: you know, I was pretty surprised that that level of

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Speaker 2: secrecy was being pursued. I mean, at that time, I

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Speaker 2: was mostly working in physics, because that's what my PhD was,

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Speaker 2: in applied physics. And you know, often we would get

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Speaker 2: funded from all sorts of places, including like Department of Defense,

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Speaker 2: sources that you know, not everybody would think are great.

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Speaker 2: But regardless, we always advertised and disclosed who was funding

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Speaker 2: our research, and we were generally proud of it, but

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Speaker 2: we definitely didn't keep it a secret, right And so,

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Speaker 2: you know, encountering this secrecy in the public policy space,

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Speaker 2: I just thought that was so strange. And of course

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Speaker 2: for me, you know, when they said don't talk about

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Speaker 2: this thing, you know, I wanted to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: My ears bricked up and I was like, you know,

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Speaker 2: I was, you know, probably dozing off in the back

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Speaker 2: or something, and I like, my you know, I popped

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Speaker 2: up alert and I was like, oh, that's something interesting

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Speaker 2: is going on. So yeah, you know, and but I

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Speaker 2: think it speaks to the broader issue, which is, which is,

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Speaker 2: to what degree have has the fossil fuel industry shaped

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Speaker 2: very public policy responses and paradigms and ways of thinking

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Speaker 2: about climate change as a problem. How has the industry

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Speaker 2: shaped those things at the basic level, at the level

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Speaker 2: of students learning about them and in universities, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I it's the these these questions, you know, as

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Speaker 2: we were just talking about, you know, burnets and other

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Speaker 2: masters of the craft of public perception, they're not just

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Speaker 2: shaped by you know, the final answer that you get

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Speaker 2: when you're analyzing a problem. It's shaped by how do

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Speaker 2: you even think about the problem in the first place?

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Speaker 2: What's the paradigm with through which you are seeing a

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Speaker 2: problem defining it? You know, And that's the level that's

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Speaker 2: the sort of all encompassing scale where that's relevant for

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Speaker 2: when people are learning about these issues in universities, you know,

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Speaker 2: among other scales, but that's a really important one. So

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Speaker 2: you know, I think, to me, that just speaks to

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Speaker 2: that broader issue. And of course I think since then,

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Speaker 2: finally now today there's more and more awareness that. Yes,

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Speaker 2: especially big oil companies have been very present in these elite,

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Speaker 2: very influential academic programs in the social sciences, in the

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Speaker 2: policy arena. And the question that's obvious that we should

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Speaker 2: ask is what effect has that had, right, What has

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Speaker 2: been the influence of decades of funding from these special interests.

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Speaker 2: Obviously there's a conflict of interest when these programs are

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Speaker 2: meant to defend society against the problems that these companies

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Speaker 2: are creating, and yet these programs are dependent on those

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Speaker 2: companies to exist. So it's a big issue and I

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Speaker 2: you know, I think the time it's more than ripe

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Speaker 2: to address it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, can you talk.

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Speaker 1: About some of the other places that you have seen

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Speaker 1: this come up? I know that there there's kind of

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Speaker 1: oil funding at every every really every big universe you

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Speaker 1: can think of. But are there other, I guess public

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Speaker 1: policy or economics examples that you've found that were that

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Speaker 1: were surprising.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, you know, this latest research is a is

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Speaker 2: one example some some new research that be out soon

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Speaker 2: and by the time this airs might already be out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It tracks the activity of a group of economic consultants

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Speaker 2: who were hired by the petroleum industry for decades to

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Speaker 2: produce analyzes that were then used by the companies and

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Speaker 2: by others opposing restrictions on fossil fuels to tell the

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Speaker 2: public that it would just be way too expensive to

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Speaker 2: act on climate and that in any case, climate was

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Speaker 2: not going to be a big deal, so the best

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Speaker 2: thing to do is just do nothing. And this was

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Speaker 2: the economic ammunition that the industry used alongside their scientific

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Speaker 2: merchants of doubt. And so if you look back into

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Speaker 2: the newspaper record and you know that record of communication

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Speaker 2: from the oil companies, they often employed this two pronged

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Speaker 2: stress strategy of using the scientific merchants of doubt to

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Speaker 2: cast doubt on the science itself. And you know by them,

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Speaker 2: I mean the people that people like Naomi Orescus and

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Speaker 2: other historians, Eric Conway and other historians have have documented

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Speaker 2: and their think tanks like the George Marshall Institute and

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Speaker 2: so on. That's the scientific side to litigate the science.

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Speaker 2: Then on the economic side, you have the economists hired

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Speaker 2: by the patroleum industry often to say it's just way

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Speaker 2: too expensive to do anything. And so that's this other

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Speaker 2: side that has not been examined as much. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: really it has been allowed to survive. I think because

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Speaker 2: it hasn't been examined. It's sort of flown under the radar.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And you know when I first noticed this, I was

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Speaker 2: really shocked because I first noticed this probably around maybe

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Speaker 2: three years ago, and I I was doing you know,

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Speaker 2: academic research. One thing I do in my historical research

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Speaker 2: is I'll download like the entire online newspaper record. For example,

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Speaker 2: I studied the American Petroleum Institute, and so I'll download

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Speaker 2: every newspaper article on an online database with the words

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Speaker 2: American Patrolling Institute and global warming or climate change in

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Speaker 2: their record. You know, that might be you know, a

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Speaker 2: few thousand articles, and I'll sort them in chronological order,

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Speaker 2: and I'll read all of them just to just to

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Speaker 2: get the story, just to see, you know, what are

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Speaker 2: their phases of communication, you know, what are the battles

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Speaker 2: they're fighting at different times. And I was doing that

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Speaker 2: over you know, it takes many days to read that

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Speaker 2: much material, but I was doing doing that and I

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Speaker 2: noticed that, huh, like these there are these economists that

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Speaker 2: keep coming up again and again. Wow, And I was like,

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Speaker 2: that's interesting, and this is you know, this was stuff

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Speaker 2: from like the early to mid nineteen nineties, so this

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Speaker 2: is a while ago. I thought, Oh, I'm sure they're not,

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Speaker 2: you know, doing stuff anymore. Then at the same time

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Speaker 2: I was doing this research, President Trump announced that the

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Speaker 2: US was going to pull out of the Paris Agreement.

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Speaker 2: And in his speech, I think this was in twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 2: he said that the Paris Agreement was going to cost

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Speaker 2: you know, an American family, you know, four thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: per year or something like that. You know, it's going

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Speaker 2: to cost a lot of money. And I thought, this

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Speaker 2: doesn't really make sense, because those parts of the Paris

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Speaker 2: Agreement are not legally binding to begin with. I thought,

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Speaker 2: who are the economists that are saying this? Who where

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Speaker 2: where's this analysis coming from? To give President Trump the

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Speaker 2: talking points, you know, to say that in a speech.

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Speaker 2: And I looked up the economic analysis that that President

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Speaker 2: Trump used and it was the same people. It was

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Speaker 2: the same economists that I had that I had noticed.

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Speaker 2: We're working on these things in like the mid nineties,

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Speaker 2: doing giving the same talking points against the Kyoto Protocol

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Speaker 2: of course ninety seven.

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Speaker 1: God damn it, I swear that, like the Groundhog Day

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Speaker 1: miss of all of that is so infuriating. It's just wow,

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Speaker 1: we're right back at the same place again, and the

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Speaker 1: same thing is happening, and we still don't actually know

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Speaker 1: how it happened the first time. I know, And yet people,

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Speaker 1: I think I find this all the time that people

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Speaker 1: are like, Okay, yeah, we know, we know. What are

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Speaker 1: you going to work on next? And I'm like, I

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Speaker 1: don't think we do know.

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Speaker 3: Actually I don't think we know. I think we've just

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Speaker 3: scratched the surface. Oh yeah, of what happened.

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Speaker 2: Then you agree, what we have so far I think

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Speaker 2: is just a faint trace of what has what occurred,

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Speaker 2: And I mean there's much more. I mean, at least

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Speaker 2: I feel like we're continuing to find important material, important

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Speaker 2: records that reshape or understanding of what has happened. And

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Speaker 2: doesn't seem to be close to getting to that to

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Speaker 2: the end of it, that's for sure. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: and people forget it's you know, in the nineties, there

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Speaker 2: were some some enterprising journalists who did notice the industry's

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Speaker 2: influence right at the time, and they, you know, they're heroes.

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Speaker 2: They were saying things that nobody else was saying. They

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Speaker 2: were seeing things no one else was seeing, and you know. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: just not enough people listened to them at the time,

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Speaker 2: so some people noticed, but not enough people noticed. And

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Speaker 2: so you know, just because one person noticed something at

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Speaker 2: one time doesn't mean that everybody knows. Right, it's very

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Speaker 2: important fact.

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Speaker 1: Did you look into the National Bureau of Economic Research.

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Speaker 1: I haven't, ben I just started looking into them. And

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Speaker 1: Exon Mobile is a funder of.

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Speaker 2: Them now, uh huh.

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Speaker 1: And the Bradley Foundation has funded them forever. They had

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Speaker 1: donations for a long time from Scaife and Olin, all

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Speaker 1: the usual suspects. But like I'm looking back now through

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Speaker 1: the wayback machine to see exactly when Exon came on,

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Speaker 1: so I can see like what exactly their influence has been.

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Speaker 3: Because it's crazy.

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Speaker 1: It's like those guys are like, you know, the president

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Speaker 1: of the NBER is like the main I don't know,

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Speaker 1: he's in charge of the economics program at MIT, so

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Speaker 1: like vice president is like runs the economics department at Harvard.

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Speaker 1: It's like every economics department at every major university is

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Speaker 1: run by someone who's part of the NBER, which sounds

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Speaker 1: and acts like it's some kind of neutral you know,

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Speaker 1: or maybe government entity, but is ye at all And

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Speaker 1: I'm just like, oh my gosh, these guys have been

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Speaker 1: influencing like how people think about economics, you know, since

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Speaker 1: the twenties, and they've been you know, funded by sort

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Speaker 1: of titans of industry all along.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like how far back do you want to go?

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Speaker 2: I mean the development of neoclassical economics, which basically asserted

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Speaker 2: that you know, the economy, left to its own devices,

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Speaker 2: would spontaneously find, you know, an equilibrium that was optimal

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Speaker 2: for natural at least. Yeah, I mean you know, in

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Speaker 2: many ways that was formulated as a scientific defense against Marxism,

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Speaker 2: right right. You know, So it's like how far back

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Speaker 2: do you want to go in terms of you know,

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Speaker 2: special interests, moneyed interests, vested interests, corporate interests often you know,

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Speaker 2: trying to cultivate certain scientific ideas for political advantage, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I mean it goes back, you know, at least

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Speaker 2: that far, you know, and it's been it's never stopped.

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Speaker 4: Really.

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Speaker 1: Like what you see is that the pr industry comes

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Speaker 1: about right when, like right after the very very first

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Speaker 1: regulation is passed on any industry in the US on

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Speaker 1: the railroads and the late you know, late eighteen hundreds

400
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Speaker 1: and right when people who don't look like the people

401
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Speaker 1: who are running all these companies start to get the vote,

402
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: and like it is a tool to circumvent democracy, and

403
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: it's I don't know, I'm just even actually even with

404
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: the the economists, you know, what's his face.

405
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 3: Ivy Lee created the.

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Speaker 1: Bureau of Railroad Economics for the railroads, and all those

407
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Speaker 1: economists were portrayed as being totally independent. Nobody knew that

408
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 1: that thing was created by a PR firm and funded

409
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Speaker 1: by the industry, and those economists got quoted in every

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Speaker 1: newspaper all the time about the economic implications of various

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Speaker 1: policies around the railroads, you know, and that was like

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Speaker 1: what eighteen ninety eighteen ninety seven, maybe, so yeah, I

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Speaker 1: just I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Totally, yeah, you know, and so many of those strategies

415
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 2: are dependent on not being seen, not being identified, you know.

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Speaker 2: I mean that's sort of the whole idea behind like

417
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: any third party technique, is to conceal the messenger, of course,

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Speaker 2: and you know that's why it's so effective. Often simply

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Speaker 2: simply revealing what's going on. I know that's not always sufficient,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, you know, it can be hugely impactful just

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00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 2: to be able to see to recognize something. Yes, you know.

422
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Speaker 2: I mean that's why when I saw, you know, what

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Speaker 2: was happening with President Trump in the Paris Agreement and

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Speaker 2: he was using the same talking points it is, I

425
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Speaker 2: thought it was worth pointing out that, Look, you know,

426
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Speaker 2: we we have seen this before. This isn't new, right,

427
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 2: This is the same exact strategy, same talking points, even

428
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 2: in the same people you know that use this strategy

429
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 2: back in mid nineties, the two thousands to fight the

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Speaker 2: cap and trade you know, domestic US legislation proposals. You know,

431
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 2: all of these proposals for decades. It's the same thing.

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Speaker 2: So you know, at least if we can come to

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Speaker 2: recognize it for what it is, hopefully, you know, some

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Speaker 2: of its obstructing power can be taken away.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us who who this economist or these

436
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Speaker 1: economists were in a little bit about them?

437
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, So, I mean it's a small group of them,

438
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: at least the group that I looked at. The main one.

439
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 2: His name is David Montgomery, and you know, he was

440
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 2: a well respected economist. He before the nineties, you know,

441
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 2: he'd worked in the Ford administration, the Carter administration, the

442
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 2: George H. W. Bush Bush one administration, he worked in

443
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 2: the Energy Information Administration, so he had a lot of credentials,

444
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 2: and starting in the early nineties, nineteen ninety one or so,

445
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 2: the petroleum industry hired him to estimate how much it

446
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 2: would cost to to put regulations on fossil fuels to

447
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 2: deal with climate change. You know. So, I mean think

448
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 2: the first the first lesson of this history is that

449
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,239
Speaker 2: is that governments have they tried to act, you know,

450
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: that early on, and that's when this sort of obstruction

451
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 2: game really came to force, you know, three three decades

452
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 2: ago essentially, And you know, so basically, he'd come out

453
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 2: with an analysis that would say, oh, if you want

454
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,479
Speaker 2: to reduce CO two emissions, it's going to cost you know,

455
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 2: all this money, hundreds of dollars per tonnesia two and

456
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 2: that's going to you know, cost all these jobs, reduce

457
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 2: GDP and so on. And generally he would say it's

458
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 2: going to be really expensive, and climate change is not

459
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: really going to be that bad, you know. So we

460
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 2: had kind of two parts to it, and they were

461
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 2: both they were both misleading in a sense at least

462
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 2: because on the cost side, his models were inflating the

463
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 2: costs based on the modeling approach and on the benefit side,

464
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: as in global warming avoided. He didn't even address that

465
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 2: there was zero analysis. It was simply an assertion like

466
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 2: global warming is not really gonna be that bad. I

467
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 2: think at one point he said, if anything, it'll cost

468
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 2: half a percent of gross national product in the year

469
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 2: twenty one hundred, which is like, you know, it's okay,

470
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 2: one hundred and ten years from now, you can predict

471
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 2: that with zero analysis. Okay, but you know, and then

472
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 2: he's look at the you know, look at the comparison.

473
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 2: Action costs a lot, in action doesn't cost much. You know,

474
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 2: you do the math. And so the point was, don't

475
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 2: do anything and wait, and you know, eventually he was

476
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 2: joined by other colleagues. They worked at different economic consulting firms,

477
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 2: and one of the main one they worked at over

478
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 2: this period time was called Charles River Associates, which still exists.

479
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 2: I mean, it's still a major consulting firm. But you know,

480
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 2: they've moved around. I think that the analysis that Trump

481
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 2: used to leave the Paris Agreement that was done by

482
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 2: NIRA near a economic consulting different, you know, and so

483
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: they sort of moved around. But it was the same

484
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 2: story again and again. Nineteen ninety three, the Clinton administration

485
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 2: tried to put out what eventually was called the BTU tax,

486
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 2: but that was this hybrid energy and carbon. It was

487
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 2: like an energy tax that was heavier if you were

488
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: carbon intensive. And you know, same strategy. The industry litigated

489
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 2: the science, brought out their merchants of doubt, said climate

490
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 2: science was unproven, then brought out their economists, the same

491
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 2: group of people who said, oh, it's going to be

492
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 2: really really expensive. Kyoto protocol because domestic policies were failing clearly,

493
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: so governments moved to the international approach through through the

494
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 2: UN process, Kyota pro Protocol comes out again, exact same strategy. Now,

495
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 2: of course Kyota Protocol was you know, adopted, but it

496
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 2: was not ratified by the United States. Of course, the

497
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 2: United States left that with George with Georgia Bush two

498
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 2: in the early two thousands, and again, you know, it

499
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: is the same strategy. It's that this is going to

500
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 2: be economically disastrous and the science is really is still uncertain,

501
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 2: and you know, it's the exact same strategy. Then now

502
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 2: that that failed, goes back to the domestic approach again.

503
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 2: So that's when we had this series of cap and

504
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: trade bills in the in the Senate, in the House,

505
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 2: like blacks of Market and so on and again it was,

506
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 2: you know, every time there was a major climate policy proposal,

507
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 2: it's like these same guys would just right would disappear again.

508
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: And you know, generally they were you know, being commissioned

509
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 2: by the American Patroleum Institute or other industry groups, and

510
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 2: you know, it was the same analysis. They were just

511
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 2: you know, turning the crank essentially again and again. And

512
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: you know, so it's this, it's this parallel sort of

513
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 2: this whole shaping of economics. And eventually their analyzes became

514
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 2: conventional wisdom. I mean, by right, by a twenty ten

515
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 2: or so. They are they've been at this for twenty years.

516
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 2: And you know, senators were saying, look, it's like we

517
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 2: don't even need to study because we know that they've

518
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 2: already been saying this for twenty years. And so really,

519
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 2: in a way, the scientific merchants of doubt ultimately, you know,

520
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 2: were they failed. I guess they over overcome. Their power waned,

521
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 2: but this the economics part that their power did not

522
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 2: really wane in the same way. And you know the

523
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 2: implications are larger as well, because I looked at these

524
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 2: economic this economic consulting firm, largely because I just stumbled

525
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 2: upon their activities. But they were not alone. You know,

526
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 2: there were other consulting firms doing very similar work. But

527
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 2: also their work is not that different from the work

528
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 2: done at MIT at the Joint program where they do

529
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 2: economic modeling there. That program is funded by the oil industry.

530
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,240
Speaker 2: Not only the oil industry, but they do receive funding

531
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 2: from the oil industry, you know. They these groups participated

532
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 2: in something called the Energy Modeling Forum at Stanford University.

533
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: I remember you talking about this like BP Shall Chevron,

534
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 1: I mean.

535
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 2: All of the absolutely, and that that group is funded,

536
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 2: you know, almost entirely by fossil fuel interests. You know.

537
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 2: So there's the consulting part, then there's the academic environmental

538
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 2: economics part, and the industry is involved with both in

539
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 2: terms of their funding. And you know, I think at

540
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 2: the end of the day, the question is, you know, now,

541
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 2: like where does this leave us? Is the analysis wrong?

542
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 2: First of all? Is a good question to ask, you know,

543
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 2: I mean, okay, what if it's actually right? Now? One

544
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 2: of the nice things about this study was that one

545
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 2: of these economists was willing to talk to me and

546
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 2: you know, and honestly share his perspective and experiences, and

547
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 2: we talked about the limitations of their models, you know,

548
00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 2: and their models were essentially based on, you know, based

549
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: on assumptions that have become mainstream in American economics, like

550
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,879
Speaker 2: the economy performs optimally without intervention and so on. These

551
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 2: are unscientific concepts that because they can't be tested, of course, right,

552
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 2: And but it's just taken as an article of faith

553
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 2: that if somebody has to do something that they're not

554
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 2: already doing, it must be suboptimal, right, And you know,

555
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 2: it's a tautological it's a circular reasoning type of logic,

556
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 2: and you know, it's based on that. And then there

557
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 2: are assumptions built into the model about how expensive clean

558
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: energy is going to be, and it's assumed to be

559
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 2: expensive like forever, like really expensive, you know, and things

560
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 2: like that. So the way the model itself is constructed,

561
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 2: it's not really like reliable in terms of what is

562
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 2: this actually going to cost? So that part's not really

563
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 2: quantitatively reliable. Then you have the other side, which is

564
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 2: the benefit side, which is not even being addressed, right,

565
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 2: So it's impossible to even make it a comparison in

566
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 2: terms of is this policy worth that are not? And

567
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 2: so you know, at the end of the day, the

568
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 2: public has been sold this. I mean, it's a fraudulent

569
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:17,240
Speaker 2: it's a fraudulent economic product. Right. You have economist saying

570
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 2: we did the analysis and it's too expensive, and you

571
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 2: know it's it's you know, now even by their own admission,

572
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 2: that's not true. And this has been going on for decades,

573
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 2: you know. So now the question is what do we

574
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:38,919
Speaker 2: do about What do we do about this?

575
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 4: Right?

576
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 2: Yeah? And I think that's because so embedded.

577
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,839
Speaker 3: This is the thing that like we were saying before.

578
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: That it's it's it's not just the you know, proposed solutions,

579
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: it's the entire framing of the problem. It's like the

580
00:38:58,080 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: soup that we're all swimming in.

581
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 2: I thought.

582
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 1: But you see, particularly the oil industry investing really, really

583
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: heavily in making sure that no one can even think

584
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 1: of an economy that doesn't work this way.

585
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. And you have of course, you know,

586
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 2: students who are going to school to study economics, you know,

587
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 2: they're taught that this is the way the world works. Yes,

588
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 2: that this is how economies work. And there's been some

589
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 2: fascinating historical research done on the origins of neoclassical economics,

590
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 2: and I think one of the most compelling, some of

591
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 2: the best work has been done by Phil Morowski, who's

592
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 2: a historian of economics, and you know, and he shows

593
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 2: quite convincingly, I think that neo classical economics when it

594
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 2: was formed, the basic ideas of it was an imitation

595
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 2: of what physics was at that time. And you know,

596
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 2: physics was being seen as this pretty prestigious, like reliable science.

597
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 2: You know, it's highly mathematical, and economics wanted to sort

598
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 2: of scientize itself, and so it literally took the equations

599
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 2: from physics at the time, and it took the ideas

600
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 2: like ideas of spontaneous equilibrium, and it just said, this

601
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 2: is how the economy works. It just sort of asserted that.

602
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 2: And the sort of fatal flaw in that approach was

603
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 2: that the physics version was at least testable, it was

604
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 2: at least falsifiable, and eventually it was I mean, you know,

605
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 2: new fields of physics were developed, like quantum physics, because

606
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 2: of the failures of the older models to explain observation

607
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:08,359
Speaker 2: right now. The economics version was not based on observable

608
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 2: variables that you can measure and test. It was simply

609
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 2: an assertion of how the economy works. And no matter

610
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 2: what you observe, you simply say, that's just a result

611
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 2: of our theory, more or less. And so it's not

612
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 2: something that you can test or approve or disprove, and

613
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:33,280
Speaker 2: so it's sort of persisted as more of an ideology,

614
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 2: you know, or a pseudo science more than an actual

615
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 2: scientific theory. And you know, this would just be a

616
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 2: curiosity in the history of science if it were not

617
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 2: for its major impacts on public policy today. And obviously

618
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 2: it's major impacts on climate change, you know, because economists

619
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 2: are invoking these theories in saying, you know, don't curtail

620
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 2: fossil fuel use based on this model. It's going to

621
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 2: be really expensive.

622
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 1: Right in saying these are the only allowable solutions, Like

623
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 1: it's it's just it just immediately narrows what can be

624
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 1: done about about this about this problem.

625
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,879
Speaker 2: You know, and it like, like you said, it's not

626
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 2: just the oil industry that benefits from these economic ideas,

627
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 2: it's it's all regulated industries because embedded within you know,

628
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 2: the self optimate, self optimizing market concept is the implication

629
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 2: that regulation by nature is expensive MM, that you should

630
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 2: more or less let things go, you know, or at

631
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 2: least you can't really go that wrong if you do so.

632
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 2: All regulated industries have a sort of you know, a

633
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,760
Speaker 2: benefit to be gained from from these these economic theories.

634
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 2: The theories themselves are biased against regulating, you know, big industries.

635
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: I was looking at all of the different law and

636
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: economic centers that the Olan Foundation has set up at

637
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: every university, and you know, they were like big funders

638
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 1: of climate denile too. But like John Olan was a

639
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: chemicals guy, you know, he and he was like tired

640
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 1: of regulation, and he was tired of you know. I

641
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: think a lot of these guys saw the lawsuits in

642
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: the nineties against the tobacco companies as like a serious

643
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 1: threat to any industry, and they really set about creating

644
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 1: conservative litigation infrastructure that would combat what they saw as

645
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 1: like liberal public interest law. And it's always it's I

646
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: don't know, in every single one of these places. It's

647
00:43:53,560 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: combined with economics and specifically teaching this sort of lass

648
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 1: a fair free market economics, as you know, an unquestionable truth.

649
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 2: And you know, there's the whole economics part, but there's

650
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 2: also there's other interesting parts that I think we're on

651
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 2: the verge of being aware of, you know, like some

652
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 2: of in some of Exxon's internal documents from the nineteen eighties,

653
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 2: in the late nineteen seventies about climate change, Exxon says

654
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 2: they need to do research on not just the physical

655
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 2: impacts of climate change, but on psychology, mass psychology, and

656
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 2: risk perception, risk perception among lay people, you know, just

657
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 2: everyday normal, regular people, but also among the policymakers and

658
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 2: government officials. You know, how do you influence and control

659
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 2: how people perceive this problem and how to respond to it?

660
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 2: And you know, that's that's another area of social science

661
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 2: that you know, it appears at least that the oil

662
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 2: industry was very interested in being being expert at and

663
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 2: potentially influencing. But I think we don't you know, I

664
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 2: certainly don't know yet what you know, what they did

665
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 2: in that area. But I think it's it's bigger than

666
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 2: just economics.

667
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 1: You know.

668
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 2: Economics is sort of maybe the obvious one because it's

669
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 2: used so much in public policy making.

670
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 1: Mm hmmmm, well, and it's it is, it's just always

671
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: used when people are talking about climate action, it's oh,

672
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 1: you know, we need a livable planet, and people to

673
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 1: have been getting better and better right about making a

674
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 1: human focus. But I feel like the economics argument did

675
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:49,919
Speaker 1: that from the beginning, right where it's like, no, no, no,

676
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: you can't do this because it'll make people poor, or

677
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: it'll cost people jobs, or you know, like they they

678
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 1: were so on that from jump versus the environmental movement,

679
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: which was like, you know, really stuck on trees and

680
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: polar bears for.

681
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 3: Quite a while.

682
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: Not that hey, I have nothing against trees, but it is,

683
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 1: it is kind of hard to piece it all together.

684
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 2: It is it's sprawling, and it's one of those topics

685
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 2: that you only become aware of it if you're in

686
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 2: a particular vantage point, and it's hard to get to

687
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 2: that vantage point without being part of the issue, you know,

688
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 2: without being sort of like, it's hard to know that

689
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:42,240
Speaker 2: the Kennedy School at Harvard is funded by oil unless

690
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 2: you're a professor at the Kennedy School, right And at

691
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 2: that point, you're you're not likely to point that out

692
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 2: to the public, at least not without risking your career

693
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 2: or some prospects. So it's the it's one of these

694
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 2: things it's hard for people to become aware of it

695
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 2: if they're not, if they don't have already a vested

696
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 2: interest in maintaining it the way it is. So I

697
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 2: think finally that's beginning to change. And I don't want to,

698
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 2: you know, criticize, and I don't mean to criticize all economists,

699
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 2: because you know, this is a particular approach that I'm

700
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 2: talking about that unfortunately has become that for at least

701
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 2: for a long time, very dominant in the United States

702
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 2: at least, But it's a very diverse discipline, and I

703
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 2: think now lately there are more and more economists who

704
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:39,879
Speaker 2: are doing really high quality work to look at, you know,

705
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,399
Speaker 2: how much does like sea level rise cost in terms

706
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 2: of damage when you get a very different view of

707
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 2: the cost of climate change if you use that bottom

708
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 2: up approach rather than the sort of pre determined top

709
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:58,359
Speaker 2: down approach that was being used before. So it's also

710
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 2: largely a matter of methodology, and this is beginning to change.

711
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, why is it important whether

712
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:10,240
Speaker 2: the industry is funding the work? Well, you know, now,

713
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 2: like if the industry is is not as dominant, then

714
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 2: there is going to be that room for you know,

715
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 2: other economists to use different different approaches, right right, right,

716
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 2: And you know it's all a matter of what gets

717
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 2: amplified and what doesn't.

718
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: I'm curious about that because I feel like with a

719
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 1: lot of the kind of more obvious oil funding of research,

720
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 1: you know, them funding research into energy alternatives and things

721
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: like that, that.

722
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 3: There is pretty clearly laid out.

723
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 1: I mean like actually Stanford even has had this on

724
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: their website for.

725
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 2: The Global Climate Energy Project.

726
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, they had like on their website sort of

727
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 1: you know, here's how we select projects, and here's two

728
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 1: ways in where And I mean they just straight up

729
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 1: admitted that the funders had the final call on what

730
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 1: would get funded for research. But I don't think that's

731
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: the case with the economic stuff. And it's also just

732
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,280
Speaker 1: not as not as straightforward. So did you get any

733
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: have you ever, you know, from any of these things,

734
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 1: gotten any sense of how much fossil fuel companies are dictating.

735
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 3: You know, what they want.

736
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 1: I guess if the API is commissioning a study from

737
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 1: an economist, they're just straight up.

738
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 3: Telling them what. But I wonder if it's that direct

739
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 3: in university.

740
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 2: Research, Yeah, I think it varies what I've seen is

741
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,359
Speaker 2: that it doesn't have to be that direct in order

742
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 2: to have an effect. You know, if you think about

743
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 2: you have an entire field, let's say climate economics or

744
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,919
Speaker 2: environmental economics as a field. You know, if you're an

745
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 2: industry like the oil industry, you can send someone to

746
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 2: all the environmental economics conferences around the country, right and

747
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 2: monitor the research that people are doing. And there are

748
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 2: certain paradigms and people frankly, but you know, if you

749
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 2: think about their work in terms of a paradigm, what

750
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:17,800
Speaker 2: they're interested in, what they're not. There are certain paradigms

751
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 2: that are helpful for the industry and others that are not,

752
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:26,720
Speaker 2: or more or less of course, and simply by funding

753
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 2: certain things, you amplify that thing, and that takes up

754
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 2: more space than what have otherwise, And so the recipient

755
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily have to be even aware, you know, that

756
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 2: they're getting this money for any sort of strategic reason

757
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 2: on the part of the industry. And I think often

758
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 2: the recipients either are unaware or they don't like the idea,

759
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 2: so they kind of ignore it the possibility. But you know,

760
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 2: I mean that's why in this new research I open

761
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:03,240
Speaker 2: it with this quote from from a handbook from nineteen

762
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 2: seventy eight, and this is sort of you know, earlier

763
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 2: on in the sort of modern regulatory state in the

764
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 2: United States. You know, a lot of regulatory policies being

765
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 2: passed in the seventies, and so the big companies are

766
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 2: trying to figure out, well, how do we respond to

767
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 2: this new regime. And in this in this handbook written

768
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 2: for regulated industries to basically game the system, you know,

769
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 2: it says one of our main recommendations is to co

770
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 2: opt the experts. You know, And it says, you know,

771
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 2: this policy is made, you know, with the participation of experts,

772
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 2: especially academics. It says a regulated firm or industry should

773
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 2: be prepared whenever possible to co opt these experts. This

774
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 2: is most effectively done by identifying the leading experts in

775
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:55,239
Speaker 2: each relevant field and hiring them as consultants or advisors,

776
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 2: or giving them research grants and the like. It requires

777
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 2: a modicum of must not be too blatant for the

778
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 2: experts themselves, must not recognize that they've lost their objectivity

779
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 2: and freedom of action. And at a minimum, it reduces

780
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,800
Speaker 2: the threat that these experts will testify against the industry

781
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 2: or right against the interests of the of the industry.

782
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 2: You know. So this was recognized as as a major

783
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 2: central pillar of all regulated industry strategy counter regulatory strategy,

784
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 2: you know, from very early on, you know, from the

785
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 2: nineteen seventies. So you know, in the case of climate,

786
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 2: you know, I think what we see is that there

787
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 2: are certain areas, like, you know, the fossil fuel industry

788
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 2: really hates renewable portfolio standards, you know, because I mean,

789
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 2: you know, maybe your guess is as good as mine is.

790
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,799
Speaker 2: I'm not like super expert renewable portfolio standards, but my

791
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 2: impression is that they're they're hard to gain. You know.

792
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,359
Speaker 2: It says you have to have this much renewables by

793
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 2: this year, right, It's very straightforward, right, you know, it

794
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 2: seems that the oil industry would much rather have a

795
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 2: cap and try aid system that it can game, that

796
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 2: it can get little you know, concessions with it. Can

797
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 2: you know, manipulate the price and make it crash or

798
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 2: make it make it sore, to like mess it up,

799
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, there's lots of ways to kind

800
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,360
Speaker 2: of mess up a cap and trade system so that

801
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 2: it just doesn't work right. And you know, so you know,

802
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 2: I see environmental economists who are big their whole career

803
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,479
Speaker 2: is based on cap and trade and doing paper after

804
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,319
Speaker 2: paper after paper about cap and trade systems and how

805
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 2: to make it optimal and how to design it for

806
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 2: this or that. You know, they're getting funded by the

807
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 2: oil industry, so that becomes the dominant paradigm through which

808
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 2: people knew environmental policy. Oh, cap and trade is default.

809
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 2: Other things like renewable portfolio standard. That's that's alternative. That's

810
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 2: what we that's not as good, you know, that's what

811
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 2: we think about. Second, that's what we talk about on

812
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 2: this you know, the last day of class if we

813
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:58,720
Speaker 2: have time. But the main thing is cap and trade,

814
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 2: you know, even though there aren't really very many functional

815
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 2: cap and trade systems in the world, you know, so

816
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 2: it's like you can influence the entire way people learn

817
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 2: about the issue. You know. Another great example is hydrogen

818
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 2: versus electric vehicles. You know, this is another thing I

819
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 2: noticed when I was looking at industry funding, was you

820
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:25,839
Speaker 2: know a lot of oil funding for hydrogen future, you know,

821
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:30,840
Speaker 2: for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, and like none for electric

822
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:34,399
Speaker 2: battery vehicles. And I was like, this is sort of weird.

823
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:37,360
Speaker 2: I mean, do they just think that, you know, hydrogen

824
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:41,359
Speaker 2: is better and you know, well, I mean, obviously, by

825
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 2: this point it's clear that at least now, hydrogen you know,

826
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 2: vehicles are not you know, competitive at least currently. And

827
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:53,880
Speaker 2: what a lot of people don't realize is that almost

828
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:57,359
Speaker 2: all hydrogen is made out of natural gas, and so

829
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:02,840
Speaker 2: a lot of hydrogen, know, presumably would be either largely

830
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 2: or significantly fossil fuel, you know, just sort of in disguise.

831
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:10,399
Speaker 2: And you know, so it's these sort of options. It's, well,

832
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 2: if we have to go to non gas vehicles, we'd

833
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:17,280
Speaker 2: rather them be hydrogen than battery. You know, it's better

834
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 2: for us. And so through this selective funding, you know,

835
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 2: it's it's not that hard to shape the entire discussion.

836
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 2: And of course, you know, when someone's been receiving funding

837
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 2: for their research for decades, you know that that certainly

838
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 2: shapes the way they think. It certainly shapes you know,

839
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:41,399
Speaker 2: where their allegiances are. You know, it's gonna dissuade them

840
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:45,799
Speaker 2: from you know, writing against the industry or testifying against it,

841
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:48,760
Speaker 2: and you know they're going to have connections within the industry.

842
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 2: They're gonna they're going to promote the industry with their

843
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 2: students as a place to work. You know, they're going

844
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:57,320
Speaker 2: to be getting grants. All of these things have an effect.

845
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,840
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think, you know, it doesn't have to

846
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 2: be so blatant. It doesn't have to be you know,

847
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 2: like a quick pro quo arrangement.

848
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

849
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 1: I think about this with with respect to media influence

850
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 1: all the time too, like people, I don't know. My

851
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: current obsession on that front is the fact that Ted Boutrose,

852
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 1: who's like Chevron's attorney, works for every major media outlet.

853
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 1: Not he's CNN's first amen an attorney, but now he's

854
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 1: also the New York Times first attorney and Reveal and

855
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 1: he sits on the board of Pro Publica.

856
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:38,319
Speaker 3: And I'm like.

857
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, like he's not doing that because he loves the media.

858
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 3: You know. I just think about I'm like, well, you know,

859
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:44,840
Speaker 3: we have a First.

860
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:48,359
Speaker 1: Amendment attorney, and I talked to him pretty regularly, and

861
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 1: I talked to him about all kinds of things, and

862
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 1: he shares his opinion as attorneys are wont to do,

863
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:56,399
Speaker 1: you know, Like he's a smart guy who I pay

864
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 1: a lot of money for his opinion. So like I

865
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 1: listened to his onion on lots of things, you know,

866
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:05,279
Speaker 1: and the idea that like somehow Ted Brutros is just

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00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 1: lurking around the hallways like every major media outlet in

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00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:11,800
Speaker 1: the country, but it has no influence on how anyone

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00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 1: thinks of climate liability cases.

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00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 3: Just seems really unlikely.

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00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 2: Does seem unlikely now that you mentioned it?

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00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:26,919
Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, I'm like, like it's weird to me because

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00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 1: I'm like, do not know where the word influence means,

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00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 1: Like it's not a bribe, Like it's subtle, you know.

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00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 2: I mean, it is interesting. You know, that's one of

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00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 2: the oil company's big defenses is their First Amendment defense, right,

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00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 2: But unfortunately for them, Yeah, I mean you probably know

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00:57:50,400 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 2: the First Amendment does not protect fraudulent communications.

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00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 1: Drilled is an original production of the Critical Frequency podcast Network.

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00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: This series is a collaboration with Earther, Gizmoto's climate and

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00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 1: justice site. My co host and co reporter for the

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00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 1: series is Darna Noor. Our editors are Julia Richie for

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00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 1: Drilled and Brian Kahn for Earther. Our producer is Juliana Bradley.

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00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 1: Mixing and mastering by Peter duff Our. Fact checker is

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00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 1: Trevor Gowen. Music is by Martin Wissenberg.

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00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 3: Our artwork was created.

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00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 1: By Matthew Fleming. Our First Amendment attorney is James Wheaton

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00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 1: of the First Amendment Project. You can find corresponding stories, videos,

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00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 1: and documents for this series on earther dot com. Thanks

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00:58:51,400 --> 00:59:00,919
Speaker 1: for listening and we'll see you next time. The down back,

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00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 1: the down back, then the back, the down back,