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Speaker 1: Pushkin Hello, Hello, Revision's History listeners. I'm excited to announce

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Speaker 1: that this season I'm offering a bunch of perks from

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Speaker 1: my most loyal listeners, the ones who subscribe to Pushkin Plus.

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Speaker 1: For those who just can't get enough. We're giving every

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Speaker 1: episode to our subscribers one week early. Plus We've created

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Speaker 1: many episodes released weekly, and I'm calling them tangents. And

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Speaker 1: of course you'll never hear any ads. Subscribe to Pushkin

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Speaker 1: Plus on the Revisionist History Show page in Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or at pushkin dot FM. One summer night in nineteen

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Speaker 1: forty nine, Margaret Mitchell and her husband John Marsh go

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Speaker 1: out to dinner. It's August Atlanta, hot, humid. They walk

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Speaker 1: to a restaurant on Peachtree Street in Midtown, not far

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Speaker 1: from their apartment.

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Speaker 2: They were going out for the evening and they were

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Speaker 2: going to go to to see The Canterbury Tales, a

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Speaker 2: movie at the Atlanta Art Theater, which was located at

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Speaker 2: the corner of Peachtree and Thirteenth Street.

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Speaker 1: So I'm standing in front of the side of the

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Speaker 1: theater with Michael Rose, executive vice president of the Atlanta

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Speaker 1: History Center.

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Speaker 2: And so they had gone to the Woman's Club prior

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Speaker 2: to going to the movie and just cutting across the

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Speaker 2: So she was so yeah, So they simply came out

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Speaker 2: of the Woman's Club and we're going to cross the street.

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Speaker 1: Margaret Mitchell was at that point America's reigning literary celebrity,

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Speaker 1: author of Gone with the Wind, one of the best

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Speaker 1: selling American novels ever. In Atlanta, she was beloved a

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Speaker 1: little pixie of a woman who stood for everything White

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Speaker 1: Southerners of that generation want to stand for beauty, wit, nostalgia.

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Speaker 1: People in Atlanta called her are Peggy Mitchell and her

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Speaker 1: husband leave the Atlanta Women's Club cross Peachtree mid Block

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Speaker 1: and as they do, an off duty taxi driver named

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Speaker 1: Hugh Gravit comes barreling around the bend. His car is

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Speaker 1: heading right for the couple.

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Speaker 2: They were maybe about halfway across. That's when they see

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Speaker 2: the car. He heads one direction, she heads the other door.

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Speaker 2: But it's kind of like the driver I think saw

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Speaker 2: him first. So Veer's in the other direction, which is

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Speaker 2: right at her right.

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Speaker 1: So Gravit is speeding. He's going at least fifty miles

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Speaker 1: an hour down a curving two lane street in the

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Speaker 1: middle of a crowded city. If the driver's going fifty

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Speaker 1: miles an hour in a car from that era, of

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Speaker 1: fifty miles an hour is like going seventy today, it's

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Speaker 1: like it's nuts. Gravit hits Mitchell drags her several yards

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Speaker 1: along the road. She's taken to Grady Hospital, where she

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Speaker 1: lies in a coma. The nation is in shock. President

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Speaker 1: Harry Truman calls down to Atlanta and asks to be

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Speaker 1: updated on her status. Five days after the accident, she

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Speaker 1: dies August sixteenth, nineteen forty nine. My name is Malcolm Gladwell.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked

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Speaker 1: and misunderstood. This season we're talking about experiments, magic wand experiments,

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Speaker 1: natural experiments, formal experiments, And in this episode, I want

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Speaker 1: to offer up a thought experiment. Margaret Mitchell died in

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Speaker 1: a car accident, but I want you to consider an

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Speaker 1: alternate version of events, a version where we would never

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Speaker 1: have called what happened to her accident. Margaret Mitchell started

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Speaker 1: out as a journalist, living in a first floor apartment

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Speaker 1: in midtown Atlanta with her husband John marsh.

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Speaker 3: It's where Margaret ended up writing most of Gone.

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Speaker 1: With the wends, Jessica van Landide of the Historic Oakland Foundation,

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Speaker 1: is showing us around.

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Speaker 3: She's working and she's writing, and she reaggravates an ankle injury,

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Speaker 3: and she's pretty much what we would consider bed written.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: She's staying at home and recovering, and the story goes.

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Speaker 3: She read through all of the books in the Atlanta library.

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Speaker 3: She just kept reading through, and John said, as he's

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Speaker 3: bringing these books home one day, he says, you've read

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Speaker 3: all the books there are, why don't you write your own?

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Speaker 3: And so he brings home a Remington typewriter. She sets

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Speaker 3: up kind of a little writing desk and she starts

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Speaker 3: the book.

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Speaker 1: Then one day she attends a lunch for a visiting

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Speaker 1: editor from New York, from the McMillan Publishing House. He's

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Speaker 1: come to Atlanta on a scouting trip.

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Speaker 3: Somebody invites her to kind of come along to the

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Speaker 3: luncheon and they are all kind of offering their books,

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Speaker 3: and it was a little bit of a snide remark

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Speaker 3: made about her, you know, something along the lines of, oh, Margaret,

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Speaker 3: I don't know why you're here. You don't have anything

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Speaker 3: to give them. Anyway, she you know, that probably did

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Speaker 3: for her what it might do for any of us

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Speaker 3: is the scout leaves and she runs home, and she

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Speaker 3: starts gathering up all of her manuscript.

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Speaker 1: Mitchell takes her draft of Gone with the Wind over

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Speaker 1: to the Scout's hotel so he can bring it back

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Speaker 1: with him to New York. There are so many pages

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Speaker 1: he has to buy another suitcase to carry them all.

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Speaker 1: As a writer, one question has been obsessing me. Did

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Speaker 1: she have copies when she if her house burns down,

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Speaker 1: does she lose her book?

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, she gives, she gives.

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Speaker 1: Does she give her only copy to the guy from McMillan, Yes,

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, this is caused me so much anxiety

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Speaker 1: and the.

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Speaker 3: Story gives gets on the train and loves it immediately.

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Speaker 3: At that point, she kind of realized that what she

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Speaker 3: had done and was like, oh no, I can I

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Speaker 3: have it back? And he's, you know, too late. He wanted,

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Speaker 3: he wanted the story.

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Speaker 1: Mitchell's manuscript survives and becomes an instant bestseller. A sweeping

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Speaker 1: Gothic historical bodice ripper about a Southern beauty, Scarlett O'Hara,

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Speaker 1: her travails to the Civil War, her epic love affair

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Speaker 1: with a dashing rep Butler. The book wins the Politzer Prize.

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Speaker 1: By the way, if you want to know how Southerners

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Speaker 1: really felt about black people, you should read Gone with

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Speaker 1: the Wind. It's all there. The book gets snapped up

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Speaker 1: by Hollywood, Clark Gable and Vivian Lee, two giant stars

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Speaker 1: in the leading roles, and the result is, to this

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Speaker 1: day the biggest grossing movie of all time, bigger than

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Speaker 1: Star Wars, including what, for generations of moviegoers is the

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Speaker 1: most memorable of Hollywood lines.

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Speaker 5: You go whees, I go watch that do frankly might hear?

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Speaker 6: I don't give a damn.

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Speaker 1: The last words RTT Butler says to Scarlett O'Hara as

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Speaker 1: he prepares to leave her and Atlanta forever. The film

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Speaker 1: is a sensation, and when it opens in Atlanta pandemonium.

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Speaker 6: Three hundred thousand people lined Peachtree Street to watch the

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Speaker 6: motorcade come in from the Candler Airfield carrying the stars

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Speaker 6: Clark Gable, Vivian Lee, Olivia de Havilin.

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Speaker 1: Gary Palmertz, who wrote Where Peachtree Meets Sweet Auburn, A

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Speaker 1: Wonderful History of Atlanta counts. The Gone with the Win

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Speaker 1: movie premiere in Atlanta in nineteen thirty nine as one

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Speaker 1: of the signature moments in the city's history.

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Speaker 6: You know, Mitchell came from an old Atlanta family. Her

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Speaker 6: two grandfathers had fought for the Confederacy. This was all

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Speaker 6: in her, the history of Atlanta, the history of the South.

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Speaker 1: After the showing, all the stars took turns saying a

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Speaker 1: few words into a live microphone to be broadcast far

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Speaker 1: and wide, and then Atlanta's own Margaret Mitchell took the stage,

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Speaker 1: standing up and speaking to America.

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Speaker 3: Ah thee alike.

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Speaker 4: It's felt a very great thing for Georgia.

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Speaker 6: And the South to see our.

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Speaker 4: Old confederates to come back to us. I felt that

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Speaker 4: way on this week, and I would factly given the

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Speaker 4: rev Yale.

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Speaker 5: And nine.

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Speaker 1: Ten years past. Her fame only grows until one August night,

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Speaker 1: while crossing Peachtree Street with her husband, Margaret Mitchell is

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Speaker 1: struck by a car driven by Hugh Gravitt, who is

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Speaker 1: speeding and who it turns out, had spent the afternoon

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Speaker 1: getting trunk. One of the iron laws of celebrity is

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Speaker 1: that what happens to the famous matters more than what

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Speaker 1: happens to the rest of us. Fame magnifies impact A

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Speaker 1: classic example would be what happened back in nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: five when the Hollywood star Rock Hudson announced that he

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Speaker 1: had AIDS. It was a turning point in the public's

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Speaker 1: attitude about the disease. AIDS up to that point was

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Speaker 1: something that people ignored, or made tasteless jokes about, or

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Speaker 1: looked away in horror.

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Speaker 5: Word of Rock Hudson's death, of course, spread very quickly

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Speaker 5: today through the Hollywood community. Paul Dandridge of our System.

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Speaker 1: Hudson's death changed all that Hollywood stars rallied to the cause.

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Speaker 1: Congress passed a bill allocating hundreds of millions of dollars

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Speaker 1: to AIDS research.

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Speaker 4: The word, of course from mister Hudson's people, is that

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Speaker 4: he does not want flowers. He would rather see the

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Speaker 4: donation center, the American Federation for AIDS Research. That was

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Speaker 4: the organization that he helped out.

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Speaker 1: That wouldn't have happened if Hudson was a minor character actor.

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Speaker 4: He was a professional, He was a gentleman, He was

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Speaker 4: a kind man. The things being said by many people.

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Speaker 1: Margaret Mitchell in her day was a hundred times more

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Speaker 1: famous than Rock Hudson was in nineteen eighty five, she

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Speaker 1: was America's darling and she's hit by a drunk driver

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Speaker 1: while crossing the street. Now you would think, wouldn't you,

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Speaker 1: that the death of the most famous writer in America

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Speaker 1: at the hands of someone who'd been drinking beer all

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Speaker 1: afternoon would change public attitudes towards drunk driving. But it doesn't,

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Speaker 1: and that puzzle deserves its own what if experiment. In

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty seven, the legendary Hollywood mogul David O. Selznik

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Speaker 1: released A Star Is Born. I'm almost certain Margaret Mitchell

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Speaker 1: saw it. Everybody did. It was a big hit. David O.

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Speaker 1: Selznik would go on to be the producer who brought

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Speaker 1: Gom with the Win to the big screen. But there

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Speaker 1: is no other connection between Margaret Mitchell and A Star

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Speaker 1: is Born? Except what if there was? What if one

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Speaker 1: of those stories bled into another? That's the thought experiment.

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Speaker 1: You may have seen the version of A Star is

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Speaker 1: Born made in twenty eighteen starring Bradley Cooper and Lady Gaga,

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Speaker 1: which was a massive critical and commercial success. In it

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Speaker 1: hard capean It's so hard.

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Speaker 7: Core the mean land.

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Speaker 6: See you.

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Speaker 7: He's just read then?

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Speaker 6: Now, Yeah, it's pretty good.

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Speaker 1: That version of A Star is Born was actually the

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Speaker 1: movie's fourth go round. A version was made in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy six with Chris Christofferson and Barbara Streisand and before that,

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Speaker 1: Judy Garland and James may starred in a nineteen fifty

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Speaker 1: four remake. All the versions follow the same basic plot.

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Speaker 1: A young actress from some distant corner of the country

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Speaker 1: comes to Hollywood in search, of course, a fame and fortune.

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Speaker 1: She happens to catch the eye of a big star

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Speaker 1: named Norman may He gets her cast in one of

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Speaker 1: his movies. She changes her name to Vicky Lester becomes

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Speaker 1: a huge sensation. It's Cinderella, only with a twist. As

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Speaker 1: the startup rises, Norman Mayine falls. Here's the nineteen thirty

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Speaker 1: seven version with Frederick Marsh as Norman Mayine. Does Becky

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Speaker 1: Lester live here?

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Speaker 5: Yes, I got a package for him. I'll signed for it.

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Speaker 1: So who are you?

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Speaker 7: I'm her husband?

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Speaker 5: Oh sure, I'm right here, mister.

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Speaker 1: Lester, mister Lester, Oh my god. In Hollywood slang, the

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Speaker 1: husband of a star actress is called a handbag. Norman

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Speaker 1: Mayne becomes a handbag. When Norman Mane is at his lowest,

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Speaker 1: Vicki offers to sacrifice her own career in order to

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Speaker 1: save his. When Norman realizes that, he swims out into

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Speaker 1: the Malibu surf and takes his own life. A Star

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Speaker 1: Is Born, as I Said, was produced by David o' Salznick.

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Speaker 1: Salznick was a whirlwind, a brilliant talker, a legendary litharia.

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Speaker 1: He smoked forty five packs of cigarettes a day, takes

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Speaker 1: amphetamines by the fistful gambols away his salary at the

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Speaker 1: Clover Club in Hollywood, writes mannic endless memos to his

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Speaker 1: underlings at three in the morning. Starting in the nineteen thirties,

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Speaker 1: Salznick had one of the greatest runs in Hollywood history,

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Speaker 1: won two Best Picture Oscars, does Alfred Hitchcock's first and

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Speaker 1: second American movies, Rebecca and Spellbound, and of course Margaret

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Speaker 1: Mitchell's Gone with the Wind. But back in nineteen thirty seven,

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Speaker 1: he was preoccupied with A Star Is Born.

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Speaker 8: My notion was to tell in terms of a rising star,

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Speaker 8: in order to have the Cinderella element with their path

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Speaker 8: crossing that of a falling star, to get the tragedy

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Speaker 8: of the of the X Star.

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Speaker 1: This is an interview with Salznick from the nineteen fifties.

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Speaker 8: And we created this more or less as we went along.

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Speaker 8: We started without anything more than than a vague idea

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Speaker 8: of where we were going, and it was really a

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Speaker 8: relatively easy script to write. I can say this that

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Speaker 8: ninety five percent of the dialogue in that picture was

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Speaker 8: actually straight out of life and was straight reportage, so

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Speaker 8: to speak.

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Speaker 1: A Star Is Born is a movie on one level

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Speaker 1: about alcohol. Maybe that's too reductive, but the whole plot

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Speaker 1: hinges on the fact that the star character, Norman Maine,

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Speaker 1: cannot control his drinking Salesnick is rumored to have based

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Speaker 1: Norman May on the comedian Frank Faye, who was notorious

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Speaker 1: in Hollywood as a miserable drunk, but Selznick could have

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Speaker 1: just as easily based the character on his own brother,

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Speaker 1: Myron Selznick, one of the biggest agents in Hollywood and

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Speaker 1: a huge alcoholic. Or maybe the bits about drinking, which

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Speaker 1: are easily the best parts of the movie, are as

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Speaker 1: good as they are because one of the screenwriters who

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Speaker 1: worked on the script was Dorothy Parker, the famous wit

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Speaker 1: and New Yorker writer who later drank herself to death.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe they were the work of Parker's co writer

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Speaker 1: and husband Alan Campbell, who would later die of a

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Speaker 1: drug overdose. There were no shortage of addiction case studies

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Speaker 1: in Hollywood in those years, so in a Star is born.

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Speaker 1: Norman Maine marries Vicki, and as her career soars, his

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Speaker 1: drinking gets worse. When Vicki wins an oscar, he crashes

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Speaker 1: the stage. I mean, can you imagine an angry husband

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Speaker 1: crashing the stage at the Oscars?

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Speaker 6: Now?

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Speaker 5: I want to make a speech, gentlemen of the Academy

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Speaker 5: and fellow suckers. I got one of those ones for

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Speaker 5: a best performance. They don't mean a thing. People get

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Speaker 5: him every year. What I want is a special award,

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Speaker 5: something nobody else can get.

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Speaker 1: After that performance, Norman Mayne checks into a sanatorium, cleans

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Speaker 1: himself up. Then he goes to the racetrack, orders a

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Speaker 1: ginger ale, and runs into his old publicist Libby, who

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Speaker 1: taunts him.

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Speaker 8: I don't feel sorry for you.

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Speaker 5: You've fixed yourself nice and comfortable.

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Speaker 6: You can live off your wife. Now she'll buy your

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Speaker 6: drinks and put up with you, even though nobody else will.

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Speaker 1: Norman takes a swing at Libby, a glancing blow. Libby

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Speaker 1: swings back Norman's on the floor, humiliated for you. I'm

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Speaker 1: Norman may Well, that's not my pall.

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Speaker 5: I don't bother to toasts him out.

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Speaker 6: He's harmless, all add mister Levy, if you'll go let

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Speaker 6: him go what you eat to We can't fight any

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Speaker 6: better than he can act.

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Speaker 1: Norman shaken, brushes himself off, picks up his hat, walks

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Speaker 1: painfully over to the bar, and falls off the wagon.

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Speaker 5: Give me a Scotch double. Leave the bottle here.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to read what happens next. After Norman's epic

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Speaker 1: drinking pinge, we see Norman's cars speeding along the Malabu Road.

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Speaker 1: We see Norman at the wheel, very drunk and singing

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Speaker 1: should be coming round the mountain in a loud voice.

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Speaker 1: He comes around the curve much too fast, tires screech.

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Speaker 1: He tries frantically to keep the big roadster on the

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Speaker 1: right side of the road, but can't. It drifts far

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Speaker 1: to the left. Another car appears on the curve, coming

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Speaker 1: in the opposite direction. Norman smashes into it, bounces off,

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Speaker 1: weaves down the road a little way and comes to

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Speaker 1: a stop. The other car pitches off the bank and

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Speaker 1: rolls to the edge of the water. And bursts into flames.

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Speaker 1: We see Norman come weaving up the road from his

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Speaker 1: wrecked car to the edge of the bank. A thick

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Speaker 1: stream of blood is running down the side of his face.

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Speaker 1: The fire illuminates his face brightly as he stands staring

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Speaker 1: down at the wreck. A look of sick horror comes

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Speaker 1: over him. Dorothy Parker and her husband wrote that scene,

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Speaker 1: and in nineteen thirty seven it would have stunned American audiences.

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Speaker 1: Automobiles were really on your generation old at that point.

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Speaker 1: There wasn't yet a moral vocabulary around what happened when

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Speaker 1: an impaired driver killed someone with their car. People in

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty seven didn't talk about drunk driving. Prohibition had

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Speaker 1: just ended four years earlier, and attitudes towards drinking had

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Speaker 1: swung hard in the opposite direction. Judges in the nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirties rarely sent people to jail for drunk driving. Prosecutors

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Speaker 1: rarely filed charges. The police officer who caught you drunk

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Speaker 1: driving knew that the likelihood of anything happening was so

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Speaker 1: low it was pointless for him to even arrest you.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty nine, American Medical Association put out guidelines

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Speaker 1: on drunk driving and said that the threshold for criminal

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Speaker 1: conviction should be point one five. Understand that right now

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Speaker 1: most American states have a threshold of half. That point

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Speaker 1: one five is wasted. I'm going to guess that ninety

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Speaker 1: nine percent of you listening to this podcast have never

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Speaker 1: blown point one five, not even on that night in

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Speaker 1: freshman year when you did one too many tequila shots

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Speaker 1: and ended up with a hangover that lasted into the

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Speaker 1: next week.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, it was. It was just passivity throughout the system.

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Speaker 1: I called up Baron Lerner, who teaches at NYU Medical School.

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Speaker 1: He wrote a fascinating history of drunk driving called One

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Speaker 1: for the Road.

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Speaker 9: So that the old line about the judges was, you

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Speaker 9: know that the judges themselves drank and drove, so they

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Speaker 9: didn't want to call attention to the issue. The police

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Speaker 9: were frustrated to thee at least the ones who were

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Speaker 9: devoted to public safety were from frustrated that there was

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Speaker 9: no prosecution.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's more than that word you use right now

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Speaker 1: as passivity, And I was thinking about it seems more

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Speaker 1: than that in a certain sense, because you talk a

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Speaker 1: lot about how there was a feeling that of an

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Speaker 1: accident that happens because the driver is under the influence

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Speaker 1: of alcohol is somehow unintentional that you can't hold the

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Speaker 1: driver responsible in a kind of moral sense for their

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Speaker 1: actions while they were drunk, which is really weird to

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Speaker 1: me because implicit in that is an acknowledgment that they

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Speaker 1: are impaired. So it's not always saying, oh, you can

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Speaker 1: drive just as well drunk as sober. No, they're not

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Speaker 1: saying that. They're saying you absolutely are impaired. It's just

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Speaker 1: that we're not going to hold you responsible for it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's weird.

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Speaker 9: I thought it was weird, but it was so commonplace.

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Speaker 9: And I'm glad you mentioned the word accident. Why if

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Speaker 9: you go and drink too much and you willingly go

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Speaker 9: in your car when you know you're not supposed to,

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Speaker 9: and you crash into someone or something and there's damage

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Speaker 9: and hopefully not death, that's still called an accident. It

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Speaker 9: was called an accident in the nineteen thirties, and it's

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Speaker 9: still too often called an accident, although people now try

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Speaker 9: to get us to use a different word, the other phrase,

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Speaker 9: wrong place, at the wrong time, all these notions that well,

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Speaker 9: just you know, if that person hadn't been crossing the street.

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Speaker 9: Sure the driver was drunk, but you know, if they

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Speaker 9: hadn't been out so late at night and crossing the street,

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Speaker 9: this wouldn't happen. Sort of bad luck for the drunk

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Speaker 9: driver in a contorted sort of way. And some people

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Speaker 9: used to make the analogy. Well, it wasn't like they

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Speaker 9: put a gun in their pocket and went out and

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Speaker 9: then shot someone. They didn't mean to do this. They

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Speaker 9: were just having a couple of drinks at the bar

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Speaker 9: and wanted to get home safe. Well they're actually that's

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Speaker 9: actually wrong. It is like putting a gun in your pocket.

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Speaker 1: If you want to get a sense of how strange

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Speaker 1: attitudes were towards drunk driving in the late nineteen thirties,

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Speaker 1: you should watch Topper. Topper was a big hit in

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Speaker 1: the summer of nineteen thirty seven, a comedy starring a

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Speaker 1: young Carrie Grant as a bon vivon named George. Grant

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Speaker 1: and his wife Marian played by Constance Bennett, are a young,

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Speaker 1: rich couple who spend all their time dancing and drinking.

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Speaker 1: After another of partying, they take a drive much too fast.

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Speaker 1: They crashed the car. George and Marian both die and

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Speaker 1: become ghosts. Stranded on earth because they've done nothing to

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Speaker 1: merit going to heaven. So as ghosts, they make a

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Speaker 1: plan to redeem themselves. They will rescue their friend Topper

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Speaker 1: from his boring life, how by teaching Topper how to drink,

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Speaker 1: which they proceed to do, and then all three of them, George,

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Speaker 1: Marian and Topper have another car crash, and Topper's take

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Speaker 1: home lesson is that he needs to keep living it up.

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Speaker 5: Well, I won't go back why I won't do it,

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Speaker 5: won't do what? I won't go back to the routine.

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Speaker 1: Topper perfectly captures the spirit of the times. The country

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Speaker 1: is in the midst of the depression. A movie was

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Speaker 1: supposed to be in Escape Carry Grant's character wants his

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Speaker 1: friend Topper to drink away his troubles, which is what

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Speaker 1: audiences wanted in nineteen thirty seven. Topper made sense in

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Speaker 1: that context. But then at exactly the same time comes

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Speaker 1: A Star is Born. Drunk drivers do not live happily

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Speaker 1: ever after. In A Star is Born, drunk drivers face

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Speaker 1: consequences for their actions. Actually, let me rephrase that A

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Speaker 1: Star Is Born is almost a tragedy where drunk drivers

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Speaker 1: face consequences for their actions. That scene I read to

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Speaker 1: you earlier, or Norman Mayane drunkenly crashes into another car

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Speaker 1: and looks on in horror as blood streams down his face.

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Speaker 1: That scene, the moral center of the original movie, gets

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Speaker 1: taken out at the last moment. Salsnick was notorious for

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Speaker 1: demanding multiple rewrites of his films, and he was unhappy

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Speaker 1: with the third act of Dorothy Parker's script, the one

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Speaker 1: that had the car crash scene. Salsnick turns to two

401
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Speaker 1: would be screenwriters on his staff, Bud Schulberg and Ring

402
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Speaker 1: Lardner junior. Schaalberg is twenty two at the time and

403
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Speaker 1: working as a script reader, and Lardner is twenty one

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Speaker 1: and working as an intern in the publicity department. Both

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Speaker 1: would go on to win their own Oscars, but at

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Speaker 1: the time they're just kids. Salznick doesn't care. Lardner and

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Speaker 1: Sholberg look over the third act of A Star is

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Speaker 1: Born and writes Selznick a memo one type written sheet

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Speaker 1: about the movie's internal logic and what it demands. Quote.

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Speaker 1: Her proposed sacrifice, overheard by Norman, offers no great temptation

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Speaker 1: to him because there is no possibility of a comeback

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Speaker 1: for him. If he didn't kill himself, he would remain

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Speaker 1: a bomb and probably a jailbird. His suicide would still

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Speaker 1: be that of a hopeless drunk trying to find a

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Speaker 1: way out. Selznik is convinced. On November sixth, he writes

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Speaker 1: his production supervisor, would you please advise the necessary departments

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Speaker 1: that the automobile accident scene is out. In its place

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Speaker 1: we get a very different ending. Norman goes on a

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Speaker 1: bender at the racetrack. Then he disappears for four days.

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Speaker 1: Turns out he's been arrested for drunken driving, crashing his

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Speaker 1: car into a tree, and assaulting a police officer. The

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Speaker 1: judge gives him a tongue lashing.

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Speaker 5: You've come pretty low, haven't you. There isn't a man

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Speaker 5: here who's had the advantages you've had. Look what you've

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Speaker 5: done with him. You're nothing but the nearest possible drunk

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Speaker 5: driving about the streets with the power to inflict ye

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Speaker 5: have for injury on emicent people. I think we'd better

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Speaker 5: deny you that barber a while. Nither days the set

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Speaker 5: of jail.

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Speaker 1: But then Norman's beloved comes running up to the front

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Speaker 1: of the courtroom.

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Speaker 6: Please wait, I'm his wife.

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Speaker 5: Yes, I recognize him as Lester.

434
00:26:27,236 --> 00:26:31,156
Speaker 6: Please, Judge, I promise you this won't happen again.

435
00:26:32,476 --> 00:26:33,876
Speaker 5: I'll be responsible for him.

436
00:26:35,716 --> 00:26:40,436
Speaker 1: The judge relents, suspends Norman's sentence, lets him go free,

437
00:26:40,796 --> 00:26:44,076
Speaker 1: and we have, in place of the morally revolutionary moment

438
00:26:44,236 --> 00:26:48,356
Speaker 1: in Dorothy Parker's original script, just another nineteen thirty seven

439
00:26:48,596 --> 00:26:52,836
Speaker 1: ending where a man drives blind, drunk and hits a tree,

440
00:26:53,716 --> 00:26:56,276
Speaker 1: where the law makes a half hearted attempt to hold

441
00:26:56,356 --> 00:26:58,916
Speaker 1: him accountable, only to give up in the face of

442
00:26:58,996 --> 00:27:02,836
Speaker 1: the celebrity wife saying she can save him, and where

443
00:27:02,916 --> 00:27:06,676
Speaker 1: the drunk driver faces no consequences for his behavior except

444
00:27:06,676 --> 00:27:11,236
Speaker 1: a bit of fleeting humiliation, and then he commits suicide.

445
00:27:11,356 --> 00:27:14,356
Speaker 1: Only it's not an act of shame and moral defeat.

446
00:27:14,956 --> 00:27:21,396
Speaker 1: It's the ultimate sacrifice for the woman he loves. David O.

447
00:27:21,556 --> 00:27:24,076
Speaker 1: Selznick brings in two kids from down the hall to

448
00:27:24,156 --> 00:27:27,356
Speaker 1: fix his picture, and they scale back its ambitions so

449
00:27:27,516 --> 00:27:33,756
Speaker 1: far that it becomes almost unrecognizable. So the what if experiment,

450
00:27:34,316 --> 00:27:37,716
Speaker 1: Let's imagine what would have happened if Dorothy Parker's original

451
00:27:37,956 --> 00:27:49,996
Speaker 1: subversive version had made it to the big screen. The

452
00:27:50,156 --> 00:27:54,076
Speaker 1: driver who hit Margaret Mitchell, Hugh Gravit spends two years

453
00:27:54,076 --> 00:27:57,396
Speaker 1: in prison on manslaughter charges. Then he moves to a

454
00:27:57,436 --> 00:28:01,316
Speaker 1: small town outside Atlanta. He was still living there decades

455
00:28:01,396 --> 00:28:04,796
Speaker 1: later when the journalist Gary Pomerantz tracked him down.

456
00:28:05,316 --> 00:28:10,396
Speaker 6: The door opened and there stood you grab it. He

457
00:28:10,756 --> 00:28:16,516
Speaker 6: was seventy one years old, and he was gaunt, read thin,

458
00:28:17,916 --> 00:28:23,276
Speaker 6: cloudy eyes, not moving well, smoking a cigarette, and he

459
00:28:23,396 --> 00:28:24,716
Speaker 6: smiled and said good morning.

460
00:28:25,276 --> 00:28:27,876
Speaker 1: They sat outside in his yard and talked for a

461
00:28:27,956 --> 00:28:28,476
Speaker 1: few hours.

462
00:28:28,996 --> 00:28:31,996
Speaker 6: One of the things that struck me most about him

463
00:28:32,356 --> 00:28:36,196
Speaker 6: was that it wasn't just that he'd hit someone famous.

464
00:28:36,876 --> 00:28:40,516
Speaker 6: He repeated several times to me, I hit a woman.

465
00:28:42,196 --> 00:28:45,676
Speaker 6: I hit a woman, and it was the worst thing

466
00:28:45,716 --> 00:28:49,156
Speaker 6: he could have imagined. And again he must have said three,

467
00:28:49,276 --> 00:28:51,916
Speaker 6: four or five times, I'd rather it had been me

468
00:28:52,076 --> 00:28:52,636
Speaker 6: instead of her.

469
00:28:53,636 --> 00:28:54,636
Speaker 1: Do you think he was drinking?

470
00:28:56,076 --> 00:28:58,276
Speaker 6: Oh well, he told me he was drinking. I don't

471
00:28:58,316 --> 00:29:01,516
Speaker 6: know the amount. Obviously, this is forty two years later.

472
00:29:03,676 --> 00:29:08,396
Speaker 6: I think he just wanted to get his view out

473
00:29:08,556 --> 00:29:12,196
Speaker 6: and it wasn't to him. Alcohol wasn't a part of this.

474
00:29:13,156 --> 00:29:17,756
Speaker 1: Alcohol wasn't a part of this. That's what's so strange

475
00:29:17,756 --> 00:29:20,276
Speaker 1: about going back through the accounts of markeat Mitchell's death

476
00:29:20,996 --> 00:29:23,116
Speaker 1: the fact that his drinking might have been the reason

477
00:29:23,236 --> 00:29:26,196
Speaker 1: he was speeding, somehow didn't seem to occur to many people.

478
00:29:26,796 --> 00:29:29,556
Speaker 1: A police officer at the scene later testified that he

479
00:29:29,636 --> 00:29:33,236
Speaker 1: had smelled alcohol on Gravit's breath. Gravit himself did not

480
00:29:33,356 --> 00:29:35,316
Speaker 1: deny that he had been drinking, but no one gave

481
00:29:35,396 --> 00:29:38,236
Speaker 1: him a breathalyzer. For goodness sake, the man had over

482
00:29:38,356 --> 00:29:42,836
Speaker 1: twenty previous traffic citations. Gravit stood for half an hour

483
00:29:42,876 --> 00:29:45,636
Speaker 1: at the scene before anyone even talked to him. After

484
00:29:45,716 --> 00:29:48,836
Speaker 1: his arrest, a picture of Gravit runs in all the newspapers.

485
00:29:49,476 --> 00:29:52,156
Speaker 1: He's standing next to his arresting officers with a big

486
00:29:52,316 --> 00:29:56,796
Speaker 1: smirk on his face. He's a reckless menace. His license

487
00:29:56,876 --> 00:30:00,596
Speaker 1: should have been revoked years before, but in the mentality

488
00:30:00,636 --> 00:30:04,636
Speaker 1: of the time, the driver was irrelevant. He was as

489
00:30:04,796 --> 00:30:10,196
Speaker 1: unlucky as the victim. An editorial in the Atlanta Journal

490
00:30:10,276 --> 00:30:13,716
Speaker 1: in nineteen forty nine read quote for Gravit as a person,

491
00:30:14,196 --> 00:30:17,956
Speaker 1: we have the utmost sympathy. He surely did not intend

492
00:30:18,036 --> 00:30:21,476
Speaker 1: to kill anyone, and tragedy will haunt him as long

493
00:30:21,516 --> 00:30:25,196
Speaker 1: as he lives. It was an accident, wasn't it? These

494
00:30:25,236 --> 00:30:25,836
Speaker 1: things happen.

495
00:30:28,356 --> 00:30:30,876
Speaker 9: Here's a beloved author, I mean the author have gone

496
00:30:30,916 --> 00:30:35,556
Speaker 9: with the wind like beloved. Not especially in Atlanta. People

497
00:30:35,636 --> 00:30:38,596
Speaker 9: were man and frustrated that she died, But there was

498
00:30:38,636 --> 00:30:40,076
Speaker 9: also sympathy for the driver.

499
00:30:40,636 --> 00:30:43,516
Speaker 1: This is Baron Lerner again, author of One for the Road.

500
00:30:43,956 --> 00:30:47,716
Speaker 9: People said he must feel horrible about what he did.

501
00:30:47,956 --> 00:30:50,596
Speaker 9: He's killed such a famous woman. We need to have

502
00:30:50,716 --> 00:30:53,476
Speaker 9: sympathy for him. You know, you look at this and

503
00:30:53,516 --> 00:30:59,116
Speaker 9: you say, what's going on here? Like the tables are reversed.

504
00:30:59,356 --> 00:31:04,156
Speaker 9: He was completely at fault, speeding, probably drinking, and yet

505
00:31:04,676 --> 00:31:09,636
Speaker 9: in an odd way, Mitchell partly becomes the blame.

506
00:31:10,396 --> 00:31:13,516
Speaker 1: Lerner said. The detail from this whole story that stays

507
00:31:13,556 --> 00:31:16,276
Speaker 1: with him is that Gravitt and his wife came to

508
00:31:16,396 --> 00:31:19,916
Speaker 1: Grady Hospital with flowers for Mitchell as she lay in

509
00:31:19,996 --> 00:31:20,396
Speaker 1: a coma.

510
00:31:20,836 --> 00:31:23,636
Speaker 9: It was seen at the time like, i''re really sorry

511
00:31:23,716 --> 00:31:25,316
Speaker 9: this happened. We want to give you some flowers that

512
00:31:25,396 --> 00:31:29,476
Speaker 9: make it better. There was unbelievable tolerance of an activity

513
00:31:29,556 --> 00:31:30,796
Speaker 9: that shouldn't have been tolerated.

514
00:31:31,236 --> 00:31:33,876
Speaker 1: It isn't just that he brought flowers. There's an article

515
00:31:33,996 --> 00:31:36,516
Speaker 1: in one of the local newspapers where a reporter goes

516
00:31:36,556 --> 00:31:39,516
Speaker 1: to visit Gravit in jail and finds him praying a

517
00:31:39,596 --> 00:31:41,836
Speaker 1: Bible opened to the Book of Samuel on his bed.

518
00:31:42,516 --> 00:31:45,836
Speaker 1: Gravit tells the reporter, I wanted to go to her funeral,

519
00:31:46,396 --> 00:31:50,556
Speaker 1: but that was impossible, And then Gravit says, God knows

520
00:31:51,196 --> 00:31:52,076
Speaker 1: it was an accident.

521
00:31:52,636 --> 00:31:57,356
Speaker 9: People also after the fact were saying, with no justification

522
00:31:57,436 --> 00:32:00,596
Speaker 9: at all, well, Margaret Mitchell would have forgiven him right.

523
00:32:01,756 --> 00:32:03,076
Speaker 1: How did they know right?

524
00:32:03,196 --> 00:32:06,676
Speaker 9: But that was the nature of the entity at the time.

525
00:32:07,916 --> 00:32:10,756
Speaker 1: It would be the nineteen cents, seventies and nineteen eighties

526
00:32:10,796 --> 00:32:14,196
Speaker 1: before Americans started having real conversations about drinking and driving.

527
00:32:14,716 --> 00:32:18,356
Speaker 1: In the interim, many people needlessly died. Could A Star

528
00:32:18,516 --> 00:32:22,516
Speaker 1: Is Born, as originally written, have started that conversation earlier?

529
00:32:23,116 --> 00:32:27,476
Speaker 1: Maybe that's what movies do at their best. The shocking

530
00:32:27,596 --> 00:32:30,036
Speaker 1: sight of a drunk man struggling to realize he's just

531
00:32:30,156 --> 00:32:33,076
Speaker 1: killed people could have been in the public's mind for

532
00:32:33,236 --> 00:32:35,676
Speaker 1: more than a decade by the time Margaret Mitchell died,

533
00:32:36,516 --> 00:32:39,116
Speaker 1: And maybe by the time a drunken Hugh Gravit hits

534
00:32:39,196 --> 00:32:42,556
Speaker 1: the country's most beloved author, America would have been ready

535
00:32:42,596 --> 00:32:46,436
Speaker 1: to say the man who greens down Peachtree is not

536
00:32:46,596 --> 00:32:50,836
Speaker 1: a victim. He's a criminal. But we'll never know, of course,

537
00:32:51,556 --> 00:32:55,076
Speaker 1: because David O. Selznick never gave the film the ending

538
00:32:55,156 --> 00:33:04,356
Speaker 1: it deserved. Incidentally, Ardner and Schulberg write in their memo

539
00:33:04,476 --> 00:33:07,556
Speaker 1: to Selznick, whether or not you show them mangled bodies,

540
00:33:08,076 --> 00:33:10,476
Speaker 1: the death of two innocent people as a step in

541
00:33:10,556 --> 00:33:15,036
Speaker 1: the downfall of A Star seems a little callous. Sure,

542
00:33:15,836 --> 00:33:19,356
Speaker 1: let us instead have the blind drunk Norman Mayne hid

543
00:33:19,396 --> 00:33:22,996
Speaker 1: a tree and be rescued in court by his wife.

544
00:33:24,076 --> 00:33:26,796
Speaker 1: Hugh Gravitt and Norman Mayne were both tests of our

545
00:33:26,876 --> 00:33:31,276
Speaker 1: tolerance for drunk driving, and in both cases, society looked

546
00:33:31,316 --> 00:33:35,556
Speaker 1: at their behavior and shrugged ring. Lardner Junior and Bud

547
00:33:35,636 --> 00:33:38,916
Speaker 1: Schulberg rewrote another scene in David O. Selznick's A Star

548
00:33:39,076 --> 00:33:42,156
Speaker 1: Is Born, the very last scene in the movie. For

549
00:33:42,276 --> 00:33:45,756
Speaker 1: the story to work, Vicky Lester somehow needed to reconcile

550
00:33:46,036 --> 00:33:50,076
Speaker 1: her own rise with her husband's fall. How should she

551
00:33:50,196 --> 00:33:55,236
Speaker 1: do that? Lardner and Schilberg's solution was simple, a single line.

552
00:33:56,276 --> 00:33:58,916
Speaker 1: We see Vicky Lester at the moment of her greatest

553
00:33:58,956 --> 00:34:02,076
Speaker 1: professional triumph at the premiere of the movie. She has

554
00:34:02,236 --> 00:34:05,756
Speaker 1: just start in with her new found professional freedom. A

555
00:34:05,876 --> 00:34:08,116
Speaker 1: reporter puts a microphone in front.

556
00:34:07,916 --> 00:34:09,956
Speaker 6: Of her ms left.

557
00:34:14,916 --> 00:34:18,076
Speaker 7: This microphone is on an international hooker throughout the world.

558
00:34:18,116 --> 00:34:20,116
Speaker 5: Your fans are hoping that you will say a few words.

559
00:34:19,876 --> 00:34:24,636
Speaker 1: To There's a dramatic pause. The music swells. Vicky looks

560
00:34:24,716 --> 00:34:27,756
Speaker 1: out at her audience and reveals the bargain she has

561
00:34:27,836 --> 00:34:31,316
Speaker 1: made with her dead husband's memory. She will stand by

562
00:34:31,396 --> 00:34:35,436
Speaker 1: her man. She will treat his sacrifice as heroic. She

563
00:34:35,516 --> 00:34:37,556
Speaker 1: will bury her identity in his.

564
00:34:38,756 --> 00:34:43,396
Speaker 5: Hello, everybody, this is missus Norman Maine.

565
00:34:50,956 --> 00:35:12,476
Speaker 1: Frankly, my dear you know the rest Revisionist History is

566
00:35:12,516 --> 00:35:16,316
Speaker 1: produced by Elouise Linton, Leeman Gestu and Jacob Smith, with

567
00:35:16,476 --> 00:35:20,956
Speaker 1: Tolly Emlin and Harrison VJ. Choi. Our editor is Julia Bartner.

568
00:35:21,396 --> 00:35:25,796
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Miila Bell. Original scoring by Luis Karra,

569
00:35:26,236 --> 00:35:30,156
Speaker 1: mastering by Flon Williams and engineering by Nina Lawrence. Fact

570
00:35:30,276 --> 00:35:35,076
Speaker 1: checking by Keishaw Williams. Special thanks to the screenwriter Charles Randolph,

571
00:35:35,556 --> 00:35:37,956
Speaker 1: also close friend of mine who is a big help

572
00:35:38,036 --> 00:35:41,756
Speaker 1: in framing this episode, with Mike Berbiglia, Virginia Huffern and

573
00:35:41,836 --> 00:35:45,676
Speaker 1: Angus Fletcher and Baron Lerner, who joined me for our

574
00:35:45,796 --> 00:35:48,836
Speaker 1: live show on the Star's Board, and also our live

575
00:35:48,916 --> 00:35:50,596
Speaker 1: show producer Kate Downer.

576
00:35:51,556 --> 00:36:12,276
Speaker 7: I'm Malcolm Glava, revisionist history listeners. This is Eddie Alterman,

577
00:36:12,556 --> 00:36:16,156
Speaker 7: host of one of Pushkin's newest shows, Car Show. On

578
00:36:16,276 --> 00:36:19,476
Speaker 7: our season one finale, Malcolm and I go car shopping

579
00:36:19,636 --> 00:36:24,156
Speaker 7: for what's affectionately known as a family haller. We crossed

580
00:36:24,196 --> 00:36:26,876
Speaker 7: test a four hundred and twenty nine horsepower German suv,

581
00:36:27,436 --> 00:36:32,196
Speaker 7: a beautiful Swedish luxury wagon, and the dreaded Mini van.

582
00:36:33,396 --> 00:36:36,876
Speaker 7: Malcolm's choice may surprise you or not. He'll just have

583
00:36:36,996 --> 00:36:39,596
Speaker 7: to listen to find out. Here's a clip from the

584
00:36:39,676 --> 00:36:42,436
Speaker 7: episode Car Shopping with Malcolm Gladwell.

585
00:36:43,916 --> 00:36:46,476
Speaker 1: So all I have right now is a twenty fourteen

586
00:36:48,196 --> 00:36:50,156
Speaker 1: BMWX one And.

587
00:36:50,196 --> 00:36:53,436
Speaker 7: Now most people would say that's perfectly sufficient, but I

588
00:36:53,516 --> 00:36:54,196
Speaker 7: wouldn't say that.

589
00:36:54,596 --> 00:36:59,516
Speaker 1: You would not say that. I have tried it on

590
00:37:00,276 --> 00:37:05,116
Speaker 1: a airport run for a holiday with my you know,

591
00:37:06,196 --> 00:37:09,876
Speaker 1: with my new plus one, so three of us, and

592
00:37:10,916 --> 00:37:12,796
Speaker 1: it was, you know, the amount of I had totally

593
00:37:12,876 --> 00:37:17,236
Speaker 1: underestimated the amount of stuff that now, I mean, this

594
00:37:17,396 --> 00:37:19,116
Speaker 1: is not in the last ten years. The amount of

595
00:37:19,116 --> 00:37:21,356
Speaker 1: stuff must have doubled that you're required to carry with you.

596
00:37:22,316 --> 00:37:25,356
Speaker 1: And the seats. Car seats are just ginormous.

597
00:37:25,476 --> 00:37:28,196
Speaker 7: They're huge. Yeah, they're fortress like.

598
00:37:28,276 --> 00:37:31,316
Speaker 1: They were just like so yeah, so I clearly what

599
00:37:31,476 --> 00:37:32,836
Speaker 1: I have right now is insufficient.

600
00:37:35,756 --> 00:37:38,036
Speaker 7: That's me and Malcolm Gladwell a couple of months ago,

601
00:37:38,476 --> 00:37:42,396
Speaker 7: talking shop, just like we always seem to do. Talking

602
00:37:42,476 --> 00:37:46,116
Speaker 7: shop is actually how we met. I still remember when

603
00:37:46,116 --> 00:37:48,276
Speaker 7: I got that first call from him a few years ago.

604
00:37:49,596 --> 00:37:51,876
Speaker 7: I was sitting at my desk in ann Arbor as

605
00:37:52,076 --> 00:37:54,956
Speaker 7: editor in chief of Current Driver when my phone rang.

606
00:37:56,076 --> 00:38:02,476
Speaker 7: I heard the dulcet tones. Malcolm introduced himself as a reader,

607
00:38:02,836 --> 00:38:06,036
Speaker 7: which I could hardly believe because I was at that

608
00:38:06,276 --> 00:38:10,876
Speaker 7: very moment breaking apart an oreo with my teeth. There

609
00:38:10,996 --> 00:38:14,396
Speaker 7: was no way this mental giant red car magazine's. I

610
00:38:14,596 --> 00:38:18,076
Speaker 7: was also prejudiced to believe that all intellectuals hated driving

611
00:38:18,396 --> 00:38:21,036
Speaker 7: and thought all cars were yellow with a light on top.

612
00:38:22,156 --> 00:38:25,436
Speaker 7: But this Canadian kid impressed me. He was talking torque

613
00:38:25,476 --> 00:38:29,316
Speaker 7: curves and limited slip differentials. He said he was doing

614
00:38:29,356 --> 00:38:32,476
Speaker 7: a show on unintended acceleration for the first season of

615
00:38:32,556 --> 00:38:36,596
Speaker 7: his podcast, Revisionist History. Did we at Car and driver

616
00:38:36,756 --> 00:38:39,476
Speaker 7: want to be featured on it. We sure did.

617
00:38:40,476 --> 00:38:44,596
Speaker 1: Altamon hits the brakes firmly, smoothly, easily. We'd come to

618
00:38:44,676 --> 00:38:45,036
Speaker 1: a halt.

619
00:38:45,476 --> 00:38:49,516
Speaker 7: Throng was open. But now it was my chance to

620
00:38:49,596 --> 00:38:54,556
Speaker 7: return the favor. Malcolm needed my guidance. He needed to know.

621
00:38:55,076 --> 00:38:59,116
Speaker 1: How do I effectively move around a young family and

622
00:38:59,116 --> 00:39:00,196
Speaker 1: all the stuff that comes with it.

623
00:39:02,436 --> 00:39:05,076
Speaker 7: Malcolm had just become a father and couldn't decide what

624
00:39:05,196 --> 00:39:10,316
Speaker 7: kind of car to get for his family. His small

625
00:39:10,556 --> 00:39:14,516
Speaker 7: first generation BMW X one SUV may have been perfect

626
00:39:15,076 --> 00:39:18,716
Speaker 7: ideal even for a bachelor, but if you're hauling kids

627
00:39:18,756 --> 00:39:22,116
Speaker 7: in their tackle, a glorified hot hatchback like the X

628
00:39:22,196 --> 00:39:25,356
Speaker 7: one isn't going to cut it. So I had a

629
00:39:25,396 --> 00:39:28,436
Speaker 7: pairachute in there. And by parachute, I mean pack my

630
00:39:28,516 --> 00:39:31,236
Speaker 7: stuff into a mini van in Detroit and drive six

631
00:39:31,356 --> 00:39:34,116
Speaker 7: hundred miles east to meet Malcolm in Hudson, New York,

632
00:39:34,396 --> 00:39:37,636
Speaker 7: home to the Pushkin offices, and together we would go

633
00:39:37,716 --> 00:39:40,116
Speaker 7: on a quest to find Malcolm macarr for the pastoral

634
00:39:40,196 --> 00:39:45,516
Speaker 7: life with a child, maybe even two eventually. There's a

635
00:39:45,596 --> 00:39:48,716
Speaker 7: great PGA heroic mind. He says, having one kid is

636
00:39:48,796 --> 00:39:51,476
Speaker 7: like having a dog. Having two kids is like having

637
00:39:51,516 --> 00:39:57,356
Speaker 7: a zoo. Yeah, everything's exponentially greater. You have to have

638
00:39:57,516 --> 00:40:01,396
Speaker 7: way more stuff. And yeah, if you're flying and getting

639
00:40:01,916 --> 00:40:04,916
Speaker 7: the whole family packed up to go on an airplane,

640
00:40:05,676 --> 00:40:08,236
Speaker 7: you need your car seat for the plane and for

641
00:40:08,356 --> 00:40:10,596
Speaker 7: the cab and all that, and you need your stroller,

642
00:40:10,716 --> 00:40:13,116
Speaker 7: and there's just so much stuff. It's like packing a

643
00:40:13,156 --> 00:40:13,716
Speaker 7: small army.

644
00:40:13,876 --> 00:40:16,916
Speaker 1: Here's my worry. My worries are as well. I'm totally

645
00:40:16,996 --> 00:40:19,956
Speaker 1: spoiled by I love this car to death, my X one. Yeah,

646
00:40:21,116 --> 00:40:24,636
Speaker 1: it has that beautiful creamium line six, and it has

647
00:40:24,676 --> 00:40:28,316
Speaker 1: the hydraulic steering. It's got like old school. The steering

648
00:40:28,396 --> 00:40:31,276
Speaker 1: on this car is so beautiful. And every time I

649
00:40:31,356 --> 00:40:35,076
Speaker 1: get into any other car, regardless of the price, I

650
00:40:35,116 --> 00:40:37,156
Speaker 1: don't think it steers as well as my as my

651
00:40:37,236 --> 00:40:41,236
Speaker 1: ex one. So I'm resigned to the fact I'm surrendering.

652
00:40:41,836 --> 00:40:43,796
Speaker 7: So that's a hard thing to give up, for sure.

653
00:40:45,316 --> 00:40:49,876
Speaker 7: But you know, deciding which way to go for a

654
00:40:49,956 --> 00:40:52,836
Speaker 7: people mover, for a family car, for you know, something

655
00:40:52,876 --> 00:40:54,636
Speaker 7: that has a lot of space, it's really sort of

656
00:40:54,716 --> 00:40:56,636
Speaker 7: a deep psychological question.

657
00:40:57,556 --> 00:40:57,876
Speaker 8: It is.

658
00:40:58,156 --> 00:41:01,196
Speaker 1: I now, I'm a child, as I'm sure all every

659
00:41:01,236 --> 00:41:03,396
Speaker 1: member of my generation is. I'm a child of the

660
00:41:03,436 --> 00:41:06,876
Speaker 1: station wagon. Yeah, I'm sure you were. I was what

661
00:41:07,076 --> 00:41:08,436
Speaker 1: was what were your family wagons?

662
00:41:09,436 --> 00:41:09,556
Speaker 4: Uh?

663
00:41:10,116 --> 00:41:13,716
Speaker 7: Ultomobile custom Cruiser. Uh that was the biggie with the

664
00:41:13,836 --> 00:41:17,716
Speaker 7: slide out tailgate and the you know, the the rear

665
00:41:17,796 --> 00:41:20,556
Speaker 7: facing third row where you could put the window down

666
00:41:20,596 --> 00:41:23,476
Speaker 7: and inhale the exhaust and you could, you know, make

667
00:41:23,556 --> 00:41:29,276
Speaker 7: faces at the serial killers behind you. So unsafe. And

668
00:41:30,876 --> 00:41:32,236
Speaker 7: my mom never got a minivan.

669
00:41:32,716 --> 00:41:35,916
Speaker 1: Our car growing up, our family wagon was a in

670
00:41:35,996 --> 00:41:37,716
Speaker 1: the beginning was a Poujo four O four.

671
00:41:38,036 --> 00:41:40,756
Speaker 7: So yeah, I mean our moms drove wagons, our parents

672
00:41:40,836 --> 00:41:45,156
Speaker 7: drove wagons. But then the minivan revolution came and sort

673
00:41:45,196 --> 00:41:49,956
Speaker 7: of reordered the family car universe. Now, in one fell swoop,

674
00:41:50,036 --> 00:41:55,996
Speaker 7: the Chrysler minivan destroyed the station wagon market, but then

675
00:41:56,036 --> 00:41:59,836
Speaker 7: the station then the minivan market itself got destroyed by

676
00:41:59,876 --> 00:42:03,276
Speaker 7: the suv. And so that's what we're going to look

677
00:42:03,316 --> 00:42:05,796
Speaker 7: at today. We're going to look at these three formats,

678
00:42:06,436 --> 00:42:09,036
Speaker 7: like the evolution of the family car from the station

679
00:42:09,316 --> 00:42:13,636
Speaker 7: wagon to the minivan to the suv. Which one is

680
00:42:13,756 --> 00:42:15,076
Speaker 7: best for you? For me?

681
00:42:15,276 --> 00:42:16,876
Speaker 1: So we have what we have a we have a

682
00:42:16,956 --> 00:42:20,396
Speaker 1: representative of each class. Yes, we have a no I'm

683
00:42:20,436 --> 00:42:22,876
Speaker 1: not committing to these particular cars. I'm we're just trying

684
00:42:22,916 --> 00:42:23,676
Speaker 1: to choose the class.

685
00:42:25,396 --> 00:42:28,076
Speaker 7: That's right. We're just towing into the frigid waters of

686
00:42:28,116 --> 00:42:31,916
Speaker 7: automotive responsibility here. It's a tough adjustment for a guy

687
00:42:31,956 --> 00:42:34,716
Speaker 7: who has an addiction to performance cars and the speeding

688
00:42:34,756 --> 00:42:39,036
Speaker 7: tickets to prove it. So I used a categorical approach,

689
00:42:39,876 --> 00:42:43,476
Speaker 7: positioning his options not as specific cars that might be

690
00:42:43,556 --> 00:42:48,836
Speaker 7: too depressing, but in the abstract the question is cautiously broad.

691
00:42:49,796 --> 00:42:53,556
Speaker 7: Where on the family car evolutionary ladder will our test subject,

692
00:42:53,796 --> 00:42:57,876
Speaker 7: Malcolm Land will he go retro and choose a wagon

693
00:42:57,996 --> 00:43:01,116
Speaker 7: like his parents did, or will he partake of the

694
00:43:01,236 --> 00:43:05,076
Speaker 7: other options in the marketplace, the minivan or the suv.

695
00:43:06,876 --> 00:43:08,836
Speaker 7: We have three vehicles for you to check out.

696
00:43:09,156 --> 00:43:09,916
Speaker 1: Okay, okay.

697
00:43:09,996 --> 00:43:13,396
Speaker 7: The first is the Kia Carnival. Oh do you know

698
00:43:13,436 --> 00:43:13,836
Speaker 7: what that is?

699
00:43:14,316 --> 00:43:14,516
Speaker 1: Yes?

700
00:43:14,596 --> 00:43:14,796
Speaker 5: I do.

701
00:43:14,956 --> 00:43:18,836
Speaker 1: I have been looking at them online really.

702
00:43:20,796 --> 00:43:21,236
Speaker 7: Furtively.

703
00:43:21,676 --> 00:43:25,676
Speaker 1: For furtively, Well, I like the idea that it doesn't

704
00:43:26,876 --> 00:43:28,916
Speaker 1: it's a minivan that doesn't look like a minivan, which

705
00:43:28,956 --> 00:43:29,876
Speaker 1: is you.

706
00:43:29,916 --> 00:43:33,356
Speaker 7: Know, but it's all minivan. I mean, you're gonna see.

707
00:43:33,476 --> 00:43:36,276
Speaker 7: I can't wait for your experience with it and your reaction.

708
00:43:36,836 --> 00:43:41,036
Speaker 7: The second is the wagon, the thing the minivan killed.

709
00:43:41,316 --> 00:43:44,876
Speaker 7: The wagon that we have is a Volvo V ninety

710
00:43:45,516 --> 00:43:46,236
Speaker 7: cross Country.

711
00:43:47,036 --> 00:43:48,876
Speaker 1: Ah, so this is the jacked up one.

712
00:43:49,116 --> 00:43:49,276
Speaker 6: Yes.

713
00:43:49,876 --> 00:43:52,316
Speaker 7: Yeah, they're all sort of jacked up. They all want

714
00:43:52,356 --> 00:43:57,636
Speaker 7: to be SUVs now. They all have kind of exaggerated fenders,

715
00:43:57,996 --> 00:44:02,196
Speaker 7: higher ride heights. You know, it's interesting because the way

716
00:44:02,276 --> 00:44:07,276
Speaker 7: that the cargo area is packaged in wagons is usually

717
00:44:07,356 --> 00:44:10,156
Speaker 7: pretty good for getting kids stuff in there, because it's

718
00:44:10,596 --> 00:44:15,436
Speaker 7: it's longer, it's generally wider, and it's it's more horizontal

719
00:44:15,596 --> 00:44:20,116
Speaker 7: than vertical. And then we come to the suv. The

720
00:44:20,276 --> 00:44:23,396
Speaker 7: vehicle once used for rock crawling and mud bogging has

721
00:44:23,436 --> 00:44:27,516
Speaker 7: been brought to heal. The modern day suv is the

722
00:44:27,596 --> 00:44:31,076
Speaker 7: de facto family car for many, but the one we're

723
00:44:31,076 --> 00:44:33,716
Speaker 7: going to drive today blurs the line between family car

724
00:44:34,156 --> 00:44:38,596
Speaker 7: and granite bowl. Eyede. It's the Mercedes AMG G L

725
00:44:38,676 --> 00:44:42,996
Speaker 7: E fifty three, and it is very red, very fast,

726
00:44:43,636 --> 00:44:45,276
Speaker 7: and very very expensive.

727
00:44:46,116 --> 00:44:49,316
Speaker 1: I'll give you my pre ranking of what I believe

728
00:44:50,316 --> 00:44:53,836
Speaker 1: a priori what I believe my preferences will be. The

729
00:44:53,916 --> 00:45:00,396
Speaker 1: one I'm most dubious of is the overpowered suv. It's

730
00:45:01,116 --> 00:45:05,356
Speaker 1: mostly for kind of like symbolic sociological reasons perfect. I

731
00:45:05,396 --> 00:45:10,356
Speaker 1: don't want to be the jackass in the amg AMG Right.

732
00:45:10,796 --> 00:45:14,836
Speaker 1: I briefly had a Boxter, which was the most beautiful

733
00:45:14,876 --> 00:45:16,276
Speaker 1: drive I've ever had, and I got rid of it

734
00:45:16,756 --> 00:45:19,516
Speaker 1: because I was the jackass in the Boxter. I didn't

735
00:45:19,516 --> 00:45:21,796
Speaker 1: want to be the jackass in the box I understand that,

736
00:45:22,996 --> 00:45:27,756
Speaker 1: so I worry that jackass factor high. Also, I have

737
00:45:27,836 --> 00:45:30,436
Speaker 1: run a foul of the police so many times up here,

738
00:45:30,996 --> 00:45:33,636
Speaker 1: and the temptation to speed in this thing is going

739
00:45:33,716 --> 00:45:38,596
Speaker 1: to be, I'm guessing overwhelming. Second, I think I'm quite

740
00:45:38,716 --> 00:45:41,876
Speaker 1: drawn to station Megans. They have great symbolic meaning for me.

741
00:45:42,276 --> 00:45:46,156
Speaker 1: I think they're immensely practical. I'm a little dubious of

742
00:45:46,236 --> 00:45:49,636
Speaker 1: these new fangled Volvos. I wouldn't mind something that was

743
00:45:49,716 --> 00:45:51,796
Speaker 1: just a proper B six or V eight in it.

744
00:45:53,396 --> 00:45:56,716
Speaker 1: And then I think I'm probably most enthusiastic about the

745
00:45:56,756 --> 00:45:57,676
Speaker 1: prospect of a Miniat.

746
00:45:58,156 --> 00:46:03,236
Speaker 7: Interesting because the sort of underlying thing here is that

747
00:46:03,356 --> 00:46:07,036
Speaker 7: we're going from the emotional to the rational. We're going

748
00:46:07,156 --> 00:46:12,836
Speaker 7: from you know, this crazy steroidal Mercedes. It's all jacked

749
00:46:12,916 --> 00:46:16,476
Speaker 7: up and it's got like, you know, nightclub lighting and everything,

750
00:46:16,556 --> 00:46:22,476
Speaker 7: and it's red through the more rational station wagon, where

751
00:46:22,516 --> 00:46:25,876
Speaker 7: the cargo package is a little bit more sane and

752
00:46:25,996 --> 00:46:27,476
Speaker 7: makes a little bit more sense. It's all ower to

753
00:46:27,516 --> 00:46:30,356
Speaker 7: the ground, but it's still fun to drive to the

754
00:46:30,476 --> 00:46:34,476
Speaker 7: completely rational, which is the one box minivan. Not fun.

755
00:46:34,996 --> 00:46:39,196
Speaker 1: I have no kind of status anxiety about driving a miniman.

756
00:46:39,356 --> 00:46:42,356
Speaker 7: Well here's a really interesting point, and Dan Neil from

757
00:46:42,396 --> 00:46:44,956
Speaker 7: the Wall Street Journal makes it all the time. He says,

758
00:46:45,356 --> 00:46:51,876
Speaker 7: minivans are simples of virility. Sports cars are not minivans.

759
00:46:51,956 --> 00:46:53,756
Speaker 7: Mean you've had kids, you've reproduced?

760
00:46:55,116 --> 00:46:55,916
Speaker 1: Yes, yes they do.

761
00:46:56,396 --> 00:46:56,556
Speaker 8: Yes.

762
00:46:59,036 --> 00:47:03,036
Speaker 7: So that's our baseline. That's those are your pre existing biases.

763
00:47:04,316 --> 00:47:07,556
Speaker 7: And you think you're a minivanman, I think I might

764
00:47:07,596 --> 00:47:18,116
Speaker 7: be a minivanman. Yeah. I'm Eddie Alterman, and this is

765
00:47:18,196 --> 00:47:22,756
Speaker 7: Car Show, my podcast about why we drive what we drive.

766
00:47:24,076 --> 00:47:27,396
Speaker 7: On today's season finale, we asked the question, when it's

767
00:47:27,476 --> 00:47:29,756
Speaker 7: time to trade in the fastcar for a family car,

768
00:47:30,516 --> 00:47:36,876
Speaker 7: which do you choose? SUV, minivan or station wagon, Papa Bear,

769
00:47:37,556 --> 00:47:42,076
Speaker 7: Mama Bear or baby Bear. After the break, Malcolm and

770
00:47:42,156 --> 00:47:44,556
Speaker 7: I hit the road with a shit ton of baby

771
00:47:44,596 --> 00:47:57,356
Speaker 7: stuff in the backseat. Thanks for listening. You can find

772
00:47:57,476 --> 00:48:00,956
Speaker 7: Car Show with a few more Malcolm cameos, Wherever you

773
00:48:01,156 --> 00:48:01,676
Speaker 7: like to listen,