WEBVTT - When The News Makes News 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:06.680 Just before we put our jackets on to walk out 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:09.680 the door to come to the studio to record this 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:15.160 episode of the podcast, roboc and I received all warning 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:20.280 that we should not record this episode of the podcast. 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:25.560 So welcome everybody to this episode of Amy and TJ. 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:27.800 Robes Sitting next to me, it has been a hell 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:29.720 of a few days for a bunch of reasons, and 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:33.239 a bunch of messages and reporters and phone calls and 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:35.640 things have been coming our way for news that a 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:37.360 lot of people expected that finally came. 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:41.800 That's right, Kim Godwin, president of ABC News, has announced 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:45.040 that she is leaving not only ABC News but the 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:50.720 entire broadcast television industry. And she announced that late last night, 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:53.240 and as you might imagine, text kept coming our way. 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:57.720 It's interesting because I think maybe many of you, and 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:02.560 certainly some of my friends and family expected me or 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:06.640 us to feel some sort of vindication or that we 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:10.119 felt like justice was served now that Kim Godwin is gone. 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:11.880 But that is not the case. And I want to 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:14.920 make that very very clear. I didn't and we didn't 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:18.240 feel any of those things. I would say the best 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:21.440 way to describe how I feel is sad. It's sad 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:26.880 when someone loses their job. It's sad when someone leaves 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:31.120 a profession they love for whatever reason. And given all 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.160 that we've been through, it's just sad that this is 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:38.319 how the story ended. None of us wanted things to 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:39.080 go the way they did. 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:42.920 Yeah, and folks who are maybe getting caught up a 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:46.280 little bit, maybe, but the news is out there. Kim 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:49.840 Godwin is out as the president of ABC News. She 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:53.760 stepped down, like you said. She says she's retiring from 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:58.320 the industry. But I guess the writing was on the 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:01.560 wall for the past several weeks if you were reading 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:06.440 anything out there, some reports, But also we have obviously 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:08.480 we have insight, and we have friends in the building, 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:10.320 and we've been hearing a whole lot about what's going 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:11.680 on there for the past year and a half and 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:13.800 how people felt about what was going on. So the 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:15.480 fact that she was leaving didn't come as a surprise 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:17.480 to us. In fact, when we left in February of 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:22.560 twenty and twenty three, when we left the network, if 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:25.280 we were betting folks, it was only a matter of 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:30.480 when she was going to leave, and maybe not even 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:33.080 how she was going to leave. We were talking about 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:36.160 this the other day with someone. Nobody necessarily leaves pretty 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:39.480 when they leave that network, so it didn't come as 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:45.079 a surprise to us. But this is a for us. 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:48.359 This was the person who made the phone call at 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:51.880 six am on December fifth, twenty twenty two, telling us 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:54.119 not to come to work, and we never got back 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:57.040 on the air at ABC News. So she was very 0:02:57.080 --> 0:03:00.960 central in everything that ended up taking place with us. 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:05.320 So I did you got message this morning? And look 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:07.760 it's been out there in print, so like ding dong 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:09.920 the witch is dead, you got that message. I got 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:12.760 a message someone using the word justice like justice has 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:15.240 been served. Now that's neither one of those sentiments are 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:16.200 what we felt this morning. 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:18.920 No, not at all. And I think it it opens 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:21.960 up that wound of you know, what we had hoped 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:24.799 could have been that wasn't. And so yes, when we 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:27.720 were let go, it wasn't that we wanted her to 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:29.800 be let go, but you just saw how it was 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:32.720 all unfolding you and you knew the sentiment in the building. 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:36.240 And it's a sad morning. That's the best way for 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:39.680 me to describe it. It makes me feel I just 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:43.360 I'm refeeling all of the things I felt that day 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:45.520 when we were told not to come into work, and 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:47.720 then especially the day when we realized we would never 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:52.040 be returning to ABC News. It just brings back all 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:56.320 of those feelings of sadness and frustration and just I 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:59.440 have a general sentiment of just feeling like it just 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:00.800 didn't have to happened like this. 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:05.400 Yeah, and look we've talked about here, and it admitted 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:09.160 the errors we made and what we should have done 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:11.200 differently and better. And you know, I wish that Kim 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:14.400 Godwin was never in a position to have Amy Roac 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:20.680 and TJ. Holmes the issue of our divorces and our 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.120 relationship ever come across her desk. I really wish that 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:25.200 she never would have had to deal with it. But 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:31.919 here we are. Look what took place with her. You 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:34.080 can go out there and read whatever issues people had 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:37.880 with her, but you talk about torn and how the emotions. 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:41.680 I had a hand. I had a personal hand and 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:45.279 advocated for her to be president of ABC News because 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:47.320 at the time, you remember this, we had a group 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:49.960 of all of our African American talent on the air 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:52.919 got together and wanted more diversity at the network. This 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:55.640 is back in twenty sixteen, and then So when twenty 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:59.839 twenty comes around and the former president LEEH. Golston James 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:03.280 this ghost and left and when there was an opening, 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:07.320 we banned it together that same African American group, and 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:11.719 we went into Disney leadership and said these this is 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:13.920 who we'd like you to consider. We gave them literally 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:17.400 a list of names. Kim Gobin was on it, and 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:20.240 we and our group we talked about and said, hey, 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:22.800 should we take this name off. We came to a 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:26.080 decision to give them a final list and she yeah, 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:28.920 she made the cut, and we advocated for her being 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:32.200 in that spot. So to talk about how conflicted it 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:36.960 feels now, I mean, I'm conflicted and I wanted her 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:40.640 to do well. This is the first black woman to 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:44.640 be the head of a major news network. I need her, 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:49.200 We need her to have success. That same woman is 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:53.320 the one who handled us and gave a call to 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.040 me to not come back on TV, to not come 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:58.800 back to work, and whatever issues I might take with 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:02.680 how she handled that conflict. And now she's out of 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:06.240 there in this manner, in this way, it doesn't look 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:08.720 it doesn't come across and it won't look like there 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:12.000 was a successful tenure of the first black woman at 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:14.000 the head of a major news network. And that sucks. 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:18.600 It does, that absolutely does. And I too was excited 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:20.640 to have a woman at the helm and she came 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:22.800 at a time where there was a lot of work 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.279 to do internally, and that was her mission. She wanted 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:28.000 to bring people together. Her hashtag that she always ended. 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:30.800 In fact, she just actually ended her goodbye note, her 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:34.839 farewell note with her hashtag, which was hashtag one ABC. 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:40.839 That was her big focus, to bring unity to our 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.320 network in the halls of ABC News, for people to 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:45.960 feel like we were all part of one family, working 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:51.920 towards one goal. And that was what she intended to do. 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:57.120 And unfortunately that did not come together in the way 0:06:57.160 --> 0:06:58.960 she wanted it to. And I know that she I 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:01.440 know you could well that was her mission. 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:04.400 Because be prior to right, there was plenty of talk 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:06.280 out there. Look, some of these articles aren't there. That's 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:08.560 why I preface it with that. But that was a 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:11.080 different culture at ABC, and the idea was to bring 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:14.760 her in to improve the culture. It's not so cutthroats. 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:18.920 It's not really what you hear of about a newsroom oftentimes, 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:21.360 right and the way it is, and to have a 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:24.560 softer gentler more family feel that was her mandate, and 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:26.520 she came in with that mandate. At the time, she 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:29.240 couldn't even get to know her own employees because. 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:31.320 It was the pandemic. So she came. Was it spring 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:34.880 of twenty twenty one? Yes, yes, Abel to be specific, 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:37.120 And of course we were all still in the throes 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:40.720 of the pandemic, So I never even if I met her. 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:42.520 It was through a mask and it was from a distance, 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:44.520 But I don't even think I had a meeting with 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:48.200 her until she had been at the Helm for over 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.000 a year, which is so unusual. That's never happened before. 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:53.600 I've had plenty of network news bosses and presidents, and 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:57.200 that's just unprecedented. But she came at a time where 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:02.320 that kind of contact wasn't readily available. It was we 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.600 were obviously a massive health crisis, so she wasn't able 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:07.640 to maybe bond with some of the folks that she 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.320 could have, or that she would have ordinarily if she 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:11.360 had come at a different time. 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:22.880 There are folks now who are and have for a 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:26.560 while that think she was given a different treatment because 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:29.120 she is a black woman. She was handicapped in some 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:34.200 way that there were the line the soft bigotry of 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:36.800 low expectations. Right. They put her in a position that 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:41.160 she couldn't win, that she couldn't succeed those debates, those 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:44.240 arguments are not the ones we are interested in having. 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:46.320 And you can have your opinion. People liked her, didn't 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:49.280 like her, like her style, didn't like her, whatever it 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:51.840 may be. But for us on this day where we're 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:54.040 starting to give messages over the past several days and 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.199 even in the week or so, when the writing was 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:59.160 kind of on the wall, where people are asking us 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:02.319 or expecting us with now out of the building, nothing 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:06.760 to lose, freedom to dump on her. No that even 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:08.680 in private, you're not talking and now we can say 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:10.760 that honestly in private with none of y'all listen it. 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:13.440 We did not have a bad word to say no. 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:15.839 And look, this was a she was in an incredibly 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:20.080 difficult situation when it came to our our I don't 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:21.800 even want to say our situation. She was in a 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:25.959 difficult situation with our difficult situation. And we have made 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:28.000 it very clear you alluded to this earlier TJ that 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:30.320 had we been more transparent, had we gone to ABC 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:34.040 and told them we were having we were actually in 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:36.440 the middle of divorces. Had we gone to ABC and 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:40.880 told them we were in a relationship before a tabloid 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:44.520 photographer revealed our relationship, she would have been in a 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:47.360 better position to handle this, and we would have probably 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:49.280 been in a better position to keep our jobs. So 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.400 we fully admit all of those things, and for her 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:55.520 to have to inherit, that is a difficult situation I 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:58.640 think for any leader to have to deal with when 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:01.760 something like that takes on a life of its own 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:05.120 through the tabloids. I would and I implored her, and 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:08.679 I asked her to handle it differently. I flat out 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:10.440 begged her to keep us on the air until an 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:14.120 internal investigation had actually happened and all the facts were 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:16.520 known and we could just take some time to breathe. 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:19.960 But she made her call, and as she was tasked 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:22.800 to do as a leader, that was her best decision 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:25.240 in her opinion in that moment. I didn't agree with it, 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:27.520 but it doesn't mean that I fault for it, because 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:30.240 she was doing what she thought was best for ABC 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:31.839 News and I fully believe. 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:34.120 That, and it's okay for us to think that was 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:39.840 a mistake, Yes, right, okay, But I think a lot 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:42.120 has been talked about now is that was a part 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:46.200 of the thing that in terms of her leadership and 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:51.160 how she was being I guess Disney or they were 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:53.080 keeping an eye on her. That was one of the 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:56.200 things that was not in her pro column, if you will, 0:10:56.280 --> 0:11:01.000 the handling of our situation, as you keep saying, but 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.679 that's that people are alluding to that as one of 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:09.560 her mishandling, mismanaging of us. I don't know, Robes, and 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:13.360 I'm not just saying it on Mike here for the podcast, 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:14.760 and you know, I've been talking to you about it 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:17.280 privately and I've been surprised, and maybe you have. I 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:21.360 just didn't feel a whole lot when it comes to 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.400 when I heard this news. There was not a single 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.120 ounce of joy. It wasn't a single bit of me 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:31.640 that applauded her stepping down having to step down. Yes, 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:34.679 she stepped down, but I mean she was I mean 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:38.400 falling tins and purvises. Was knew she was not still 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:39.800 wanted there. I guess her. 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:43.040 Power we all know with the with the introduction of 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:45.880 Deborah O'Connell to come into the news department and have 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:48.920 a position created for her, that oversaw basically Kim's position. 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:51.680 So Kim was no longer reporting to Iger or to 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:55.040 anyone else really over at Disney, but reporting directly to Deborah. 0:11:55.200 --> 0:12:01.440 That was obviously put in place to affect her ability 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:05.280 to lead and affect her position of power. And ultimately 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:08.520 we can just assume led to her decision to leave. 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:12.679 So as she leaves and we get all that, I 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:18.079 get why people expect us to come out and go 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:23.440 in or go hard or just there. That's genuinely, honestly nothing, 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:25.360 And that has something to do with I guess the 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:27.000 past year and a half of our lives. It has 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:29.120 to do with growth, It has to do with empathy. 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.959 I just see this woman. Nobody. I don't want her 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:37.320 to go through what she's going through, whatever her financial 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:39.120 package was, and she's gonna be okay, And I'm not 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:41.600 even thinking about that. You don't want this. She was 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:43.680 a first This is not just a matter for her 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:45.839 before a lot of other folks were looking at that 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:51.120 when weird comparison. But when Barack Obama was elected, black 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:54.160 folk's like, who we really need him to do? Okay, 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:56.000 because we not go have another black president for one 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:58.880 hundred years if this one doesn't put on a good 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:01.840 show for all of us, and so this was to 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.360 be a first. The way she is, the way she 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:09.319 was even in our even when I didn't like decisions 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:13.560 she made when we were there, I still I need 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:17.000 her to do okay and to still be sitting here now. 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:20.480 There is no one I hold besides the two of 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.720 us more responsible for us not being at the network 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.839 than Kim Godwin. Right, we made our decisions and what not, 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.120 so we have to we take our responsibility. But outside 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:34.280 of us, the person I hold most responsible is Kim Godwin. 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:38.000 But I can sit here and not have a single 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:42.640 bit of ill will towards Kim Godwin or applaud that 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:46.800 she got what she deserved, got her come up, and 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:50.760 so got no. I didn't want that for her at all, 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:53.839 and my heart hurts for her in an entire news 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:58.400 division that is in turmoil. If you believe what you read, 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.000 but if we believe our text and calls and conversations 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:02.960 that we have with people who are still in that building. 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.360 Yes, and uh, I you know, I can only hope 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:08.720 that this is going to clear the path for a 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:11.040 new way forward, and so that the people who we 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:13.960 loved working with, who we still love who were still 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:19.840 in communication with have have some hope, and some some 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:23.080 new blood, and some just some new decisions and some 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:24.640 some a new way forward, you know. I mean, that's 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:26.680 all you can help for. And look any one of us, 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:30.479 anyone who's been in this business, but in probably most businesses, 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.080 this is part of doing business. I have never been 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:36.960 at any network or any news station where I haven't 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:39.520 had a new boss after a few years. So this 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:43.680 is not an unusual situation. Unfortunately, there is. This is 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.200 a very tumultuous and as you I think you use 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:48.720 the word cutthroat, cutthroat business. It just is. And anyone 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:51.320 who's in it knows it. That's you're playing with the 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:53.280 big boys, and you've got to you've got to play 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:55.080 at a certain level. And so this kind of thing 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.440 is not unusual. Our connection to her is what makes 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:00.160 this different for us. And I think you you know, 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:02.720 you and I both we didn't There was no I 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:04.880 didn't even I just felt sad. That's just the best 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:06.600 way for me to put it. We weren't high fiving, 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:09.680 we weren't saying karma. What goes around comes none of that, 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:11.240 none of it. And I don't want to live my 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:13.600 life like that. I don't want to hold onto anything 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:16.320 like that. And I really truly believe we've joked. I 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:18.000 think we talked about it with Cheryl Burke about when 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:20.600 people say it's not personal, it's just business, and it 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:23.680 always feels really personal. And I get that and we've 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:27.280 experienced that. But truly, when she made her call, it 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.640 wasn't personal, it was business, and I get that, and 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:34.680 so I don't feel any anger towards her. And I 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:37.040 think you and I had both said and everyone kind 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:38.920 of thinks this if you go through a situation where 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:40.600 I don't know, you've been fired or maybe it's even 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:42.280 an X or whatever it is, where you've had a 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:45.440 relationship or something with someone, and then you wonder what 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:48.600 would happen if I saw them again, What would happen 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:52.200 if I ran into them. We actually had the opportunity 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:55.960 to realize what we were going to do if and 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:58.160 when that happened, because it did. We did run into 0:15:58.240 --> 0:15:59.400 camp recently. 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:02.680 Yeah, recent months, we have. We did see her, and 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:06.400 people often you can't help buy right, like, if you 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.280 could say anything to her today, what would you say? 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:15.880 And people expect that to be something emotional or negative 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:18.680 or just to go all did you just want a 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:22.680 even and we did. We saw her in recent month 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:26.680 and it was it was pleasant. She didn't see us. No, 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:30.160 we made the effort to make sure. We reached out 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:32.920 and we went and we made sure we saw her 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:36.400 and she saw us, and we sent her a gift. 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:44.400 In fact, we literally, folks, we sent him Godwin a 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:49.040 bottle of champagne as a gesture, not as a joke, 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:52.280 but as a gesture, as a kind gesture, as a 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:54.440 I don't even want to call it an olive branch, 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:58.480 but it was just to say we good. We did 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:02.920 this with her not too terribly long ago. So even then, 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:05.400 when we had an opportunity to avoid her, we had 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:07.040 a tough opportunity to go off on her. We had 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:09.000 an opportunity to do all kinds of things. We didn't 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:10.320 take that opportunity to do so. 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:12.720 And I will give you credit for the bottle of 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:16.760 champagne idea, because it is one of those crazy moments 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:21.119 where you think, Nah, what are the chances that we 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:25.119 are actually sitting in the same place that she is. 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:28.440 She has not seen us. We can totally see her. 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:30.879 We can see everything she's doing and saying, and we 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:34.240 could absolutely have walked out avoided her. We had a 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:36.600 way to get out of that room or that area 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:40.800 without her having seen us. But then we we did. 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:42.359 We went back and forth, what do we do? Do 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:45.719 we go up and say hi? Do do we? I mean? 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:48.920 We were just there was all the different possibilities. Yeah, right, 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:51.840 And you had the idea to have the waiters send 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:55.600 a bottle of champagne over and then kind of reference 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:57.600 our table and we could just sit and wave and 0:17:57.640 --> 0:17:59.520 just say hi. And it just seemed like the polite, 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:01.400 kind nice thing to do. As soon as you came 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:04.280 up with the idea, I said, oh, perfect, that's exactly 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:05.760 what we need to do. And I will say to 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:08.720 her credit, when that happened, she was looking around like, 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:11.399 who just sent me a bottle of champagne? And she 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:14.479 stood up and she came over to our table and 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:17.000 she gave us both a hug, and you know what, 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:19.520 that was all the closure I needed really at that point. 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:24.560 It was perfect and it was the right thing to do, 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.840 and I felt good about it. I walked away feeling better. 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:30.080 You know, I haven't thought of U until you said 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:32.920 it that way. We've discussed that moment before, but that 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:37.400 was our closure, not her leaving ABC, not anything else. 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:39.840 That was our closure, and I didn't even know. Maybe 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:43.159 we needed it, but it was that was a for 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:44.960 us to be able to sit. Yeah, because we discussed 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:47.240 back and forth for a while, what are we gonna do. 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:49.680 Let's get our checked, Let's get the hell out of here. 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:53.680 You sure you want to say what you really wanted 0:18:53.680 --> 0:19:05.920 to say? It wasn't the case. Maybe that's a part 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:08.760 of our growth, that's a part of our experience, but 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:12.439 there is just no animus what I'm when when I 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:16.800 see that the network or shows are struggling or behind 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:18.720 or lagging, and then we get all the reports from 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:21.439 our friends and colleagues and folks who are still in 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:25.600 the building. I hate that because we know you talked 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:27.440 about when you're in this business long enough, you get 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:30.480 a new boss and fresh ideas. But you know what, 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:32.240 everybody for a little while is going to be on 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:33.959 pins and needles and going to be on edge. It 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:38.040 feels awful waiting for the next wave. So what's gonna happen. 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:39.440 Are they going to come in it's a new boss, 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:41.200 They're not gonna really like me? Or are they gonna 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:44.040 really keep my show in place are they going to 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:48.800 do that. There's still this this angst for a while, 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:51.400 waiting for new leadership. The one thing I do think 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:55.080 say they I are in good hands with Deborah Cara. 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.200 We if you're reading anything out there and you don't 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:02.120 know who she is, you'll you'll read almost just glowing 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:05.720 reviews about her in every article because she she is 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:07.800 a wonderful one. We didn't get to work with enough, 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:11.399 but we absolutely adore her. So she that makes me 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:13.520 feel good. They are in very capable hands. 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:15.119 I'm glad you just pointed it out because that is 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:17.720 so true. And yes, there is phrenetic energy when there's 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:20.680 a new boss coming in town eventually or honestly, even 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:24.439 the interim between, you know, when you don't have a 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:27.040 new president and you're waiting for the person that they tap. 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:30.280 But you're right in the meantime, Deborah O'Connell is the 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:34.879 perfect person to lead that newsroom, that news division into 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:38.720 or through this transition period until they actually end up 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:41.800 hiring someone else. And so I do feel good about 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:46.240 our former colleagues and our friends being in very very 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:49.520 capable hands with Deborah. So that is that is going 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:51.960 to help the transition significantly. I don't think I've ever 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:56.240 seen someone like that step up when we're in a 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:58.560 period of transition, and we've had plenty of periods of transition, 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:02.680 so I think this will be fully a better next 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:05.480 chapter for ABC News. 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:07.760 It's crazy as it sounds. We root for them, we do. 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:12.320 It sounds crazy, We root for ABC News because that's 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:14.560 a place we did. We played such a role in 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:18.800 building it. In a I say building it, No, no, 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:21.600