Speaker 1: Welcome to On the Job. It's hard to believe it
Speaker 1: that this is now our eighth season, so a sincere
Speaker 1: thank you to those of you who've been listening through
Speaker 1: the years. We're thrilled to have you back, and to
Speaker 1: you newcomers, welcome in. We've got a lot of great
Speaker 1: stories coming your way because on this season of On
Speaker 1: the Job, we're going to be focusing our attention on
Speaker 1: people who have made some pivots in their careers, because
Speaker 1: while things are looking pretty good out there, if the
Speaker 1: recent years taught us anything it's that life and the
Speaker 1: workplace are filled with uncertainty. But as we're going to
Speaker 1: hear over the next eight episodes, change doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be a bad thing to stick around. If you're not
Speaker 1: sure how to feel about the economy these days, you're
Speaker 1: not alone. It's an admittedly confusing time right now. On
Speaker 1: one hand, we've got quite a low unemployment rate and
Speaker 1: arising GDP, which are both great statistics. Yet at the
Speaker 1: same time, consumer confidence is shaky, and according to a
Speaker 1: recent Pew Research poll, when Americans were asked how they
Speaker 1: feel about the economy, about three and ten said it's excellent.
Speaker 1: Well nearly the same number of people said the exact opposite.
Speaker 1: So to try to make sense of what's going on
Speaker 1: out there, I gave a call up to Boston, Massachusetts
Speaker 1: to speak with author, labor historian, and fellow at Harvard
Speaker 1: Law mark Erlick, to help us cut through some of
Speaker 1: that confusion and gain a better understanding of how our
Speaker 1: economy is faring and what might be coming our way.
Speaker 1: Mark Erlick, thank you for being on the podcast. Let's
Speaker 1: jump right into it. How's it looking out there to you?
Speaker 2: Well, I actually think it's looking quite good. You know,
Speaker 2: there's the issue of perception and reality and how it's
Speaker 2: perceived politically about the reality is that the job market
Speaker 2: keeps climbing, that we have come out of the pandemic
Speaker 2: better than really any other country in the world, and
Speaker 2: I think there are a lot of opportunities. I would
Speaker 2: say that to the degree that what our future holds
Speaker 2: in some ways is dependent on the election in November
Speaker 2: and whether the current trends continue or whether there's a
Speaker 2: sharp turn to a different set of politics and economics.
Speaker 3: You mentioned the election.
Speaker 1: Is there anything else we should sort of have on
Speaker 1: our horizon to be aware of?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, there's all sorts of shocks
Speaker 2: that come that nobody can ever anticipate. Certainly, I think
Speaker 2: the Russian invasion of Ukraine ended up having global consequences
Speaker 2: that nobody expected and nobody anticipated. So you know, I'm
Speaker 2: not about to pull out my crystal ball and tell
Speaker 2: you what shocks are on the way.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: But if if we presume that basically the essential elements
Speaker 2: of economic life continuous, they are, you know, I think
Speaker 2: the future is pretty promising, and there's a lot of
Speaker 2: federal dollars that are going to be invested in the
Speaker 2: economy that you know, while the infrastructure bill was passed
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago, those dollars are really only
Speaker 2: getting on the ground now and in the near future. So,
Speaker 2: you know, particularly for folks in the construction industry, the
Speaker 2: outlook is pretty promising.
Speaker 1: As Mark told me, there's only so much crystal ballgazing
Speaker 1: one can do. As a historian, he knows that unforeseen
Speaker 1: surprises are both unpredictable and inevitable. However, there is one
Speaker 1: thing that we can all see coming our way, and
Speaker 1: that's AI.
Speaker 2: I think for the majority of jobs, I don't think
Speaker 2: in the short term is going to be much of
Speaker 2: an impact one way or another. I think twenty five
Speaker 2: thirty fifty years out, the impact of AI is probably
Speaker 2: going to be incomprehensible.
Speaker 1: Means well, we might not be able to fully grasp
Speaker 1: what a world with AI is going to look like.
Speaker 1: Mark suggests that we don't necessarily have to fear it
Speaker 1: or fight it tooth and nail. Sometimes the best way
Speaker 1: to prepare for our future is to understand our past,
Speaker 1: and so Mark looks to previous innovations like the computer
Speaker 1: and Internet, which were certainly disruptive to some, but instead
Speaker 1: of eliminating tons of jobs, they've been incorporated into them,
Speaker 1: allowing people to do their jobs better.
Speaker 2: If you walk on the construction site and you open
Speaker 2: up the old gang box where everybody used to store
Speaker 2: the tools, nine times out of ten you open up
Speaker 2: the gang box and the inside of the lid is
Speaker 2: a flat screen because everything is done on iPads. Now
Speaker 2: that the foreman, that the lead electricians, lead carpers, will
Speaker 2: have an iPad, and the architects will be shooting drawings
Speaker 2: back and forth.
Speaker 1: And at least for now, it seems unlikely that AI
Speaker 1: will be able to replace a plumber or an electrician
Speaker 1: anytime soon, which is a great thing because those types
Speaker 1: of jobs, the sort of skilled trade jobs, are having
Speaker 1: quite a resurgence these days. And Mark, a former carpenter himself,
Speaker 1: which we'll hear more about in the second half of
Speaker 1: the episode, says, not only are those jobs quite plentiful
Speaker 1: these days, they were also finally getting their respect they deserve.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's been an interesting process. I think
Speaker 2: that's for two reasons. One is that guidance counselors in
Speaker 2: high schools and families works kept saying college, college, college, college.
Speaker 2: You got to go to college if you're going to
Speaker 2: have a secure living. And what happened when you graduated.
Speaker 2: You had a pile of student debt and you were
Speaker 2: a barista or an uber driver, and the prospects, the
Speaker 2: employment prospects were not anywhere near what they had been
Speaker 2: projected to be. On the other hand, if you do
Speaker 2: blue collar work, if you frankly, if you go say
Speaker 2: through an apprenticeship program, you are earning while you learn.
Speaker 2: There is no debt. You're learning a skill. In four
Speaker 2: years and you've become a licensed electrician or you become
Speaker 2: a master carpenter or whatever, and the occupation may.
Speaker 3: Be, and you have been.
Speaker 2: You've been making money that entire time, and you're well
Speaker 2: on your way towards, you know, having a secure livelihood.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, not to romanticize these occupations. They're
Speaker 2: still dangerous, they're dirty, they're difficult, but it is I think,
Speaker 2: becoming increasingly attractive to people when they look, on the
Speaker 2: one hand, as college tuitions keep increasing and increasing, that
Speaker 2: becomes an attractive alternative. And I think that's a good thing,
Speaker 2: because I think for too long we devalue that kind
Speaker 2: of work in the society. And I'm glad to see,
Speaker 2: like the enrollment of vocational schools is increasing all over
Speaker 2: the country, and that seems to me kind of like
Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty degree shift from say even twenty
Speaker 2: years ago.
Speaker 1: With soaring enrollment in technical and vocational schools and a
Speaker 1: strong jobs market in the blue collar sector, some have
Speaker 1: even started calling gen Z the tool belt generation. And
Speaker 1: as public opinion of the trades continues to change, so
Speaker 1: too are the people drawn to them. For example, women's
Speaker 1: participation in the blue collar sector is now at a
Speaker 1: twenty five year high.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, when I was an apprentice again a
Speaker 2: long time ago, back in the seventies, they were sort
Speaker 2: of the pioneers who came in with Title nine back
Speaker 2: in the late seventies with the federal order, and it
Speaker 2: was really very, very difficult. I mean, most of the
Speaker 2: guys on the job did nothing one way or another,
Speaker 2: but they were always a veryly large number of jerks
Speaker 2: who were really hostile. I mean, thankfully those days are gone.
Speaker 1: Mark has even seen support groups for women in the
Speaker 1: trades popping up around the country to offer mentoring and
Speaker 1: to increase retention.
Speaker 2: You're seeing women in the trades being elevated to leadership
Speaker 2: positions in the industry.
Speaker 3: It's a very healthy thing, very good thing.
Speaker 1: And a similar trend is happening with foreign born Americans.
Speaker 2: My parents are immigrants. I'm a big support of immigration.
Speaker 2: I think this country was built on immigrant labor, and
Speaker 2: the only difference now is that it's instead of being
Speaker 2: folks from Southern Europe or Eastern Europe or wherever, they're
Speaker 2: coming from Central and South America as well as other
Speaker 2: parts of the world. And I think actually that is
Speaker 2: a strength of the United States. And I am very
Speaker 2: disappointed that it's become such a political football, because I
Speaker 2: think we thrive on immigration and and and welcoming new
Speaker 2: workers in the industry. So I think that's you're going
Speaker 2: to see that that's going to be true everywhere, that
Speaker 2: the blue collar workers are going to be I mean,
Speaker 2: one of the reasons actually that the job projections are
Speaker 2: doing so well is because of the new of the
Speaker 2: surge of immigrant labor.
Speaker 1: But the diversity we're witnessing in this toolboat generation is
Speaker 1: also being felt in white collar and service industries as well,
Speaker 1: where jobs are no longer divided among genders and ethnicities
Speaker 1: the way they once were, and as our workforce becomes
Speaker 1: more reflective of the community it's built from, that will
Speaker 1: only make our economy more resilient and more adaptable to
Speaker 1: whatever challenges come our way. When we come back from
Speaker 1: the break, we'll hear how mark erlik went from the
Speaker 1: job site to the ivy.
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Speaker 1: We're back with Mark Irlick, who, aside from having his
Speaker 1: finger on the economic pulse, is the perfect person to
Speaker 1: lead off our pivot focus season of On the Job,
Speaker 1: because it turns out that Mark has quite the pivot
Speaker 1: story of his own, because long before he was walking
Speaker 1: those hallowed halls of Harvard, he was swinging a hammer
Speaker 1: on a job site as a master car carpenter.
Speaker 2: I'm a carpenter by trade. I was a member of
Speaker 2: the Carver's Union. I still am for over fifty years.
Speaker 2: I worked as an apprentice, the journeym and a foreman
Speaker 2: and superintendent. But I very much valued my time in
Speaker 2: the field.
Speaker 1: Was there one area of expertise you had as a carpenter.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 3: I tried to be a generalist.
Speaker 2: I did concrete forms, I did drywall, I did framing,
Speaker 2: I did finished work mostly, and when I had the
Speaker 2: opportunity be superintendent, I had to learn about, you know,
Speaker 2: the other trades as well.
Speaker 1: Mark hat a beautiful analogy for his time as a
Speaker 1: superintendent in which he was responsible for all these different trades,
Speaker 1: each doing their own thing, yet all leading towards the
Speaker 1: same end goal.
Speaker 2: At its best, and it wasn't always at its best,
Speaker 2: but at his best it was like being a conductor
Speaker 2: of a symphony when you had got all the different
Speaker 2: trades to kind.
Speaker 3: Of work together to create this.
Speaker 2: You know, someone's vision in their head of an architect,
Speaker 2: and you actually made it.
Speaker 3: I think it's a very exciting process.
Speaker 1: And like anyone who spent enough time on our job site,
Speaker 1: Mark isn't short on stories.
Speaker 2: So we got we got there on the on the
Speaker 2: first day and I said, well, w there's the plans
Speaker 2: and he said, well, we don't really actually have the plans.
Speaker 2: And I said, well, what do you mean. He says,
Speaker 2: I just fired the architect. So I said, well, how
Speaker 2: are we going to build this thing? And he says, well,
Speaker 2: we have the initial plans that we did and we'll
Speaker 2: just work it out now. This was the ended up
Speaker 2: being the most expensive by square foot restaurant in Boston
Speaker 2: at the time, and the whole thing was done with
Speaker 2: this guy would travel on weekends to auctions in India
Speaker 2: and Turkey and he would buy bars and things and
Speaker 2: he would bring him back and and he had a
Speaker 2: storage facility in Boston and he would bring at that time,
Speaker 2: Polaroid pictures and he would show me, sayd where are
Speaker 2: we going to put this? And I said, well, that
Speaker 2: won't fit because we've already got the walls. And he said,
Speaker 2: I tear down the walls. So it was a great
Speaker 2: deal of fun. It was a little ridiculous. It was
Speaker 2: way more expensive than it needed to be.
Speaker 1: For the last twelve years of Mark's career, he became
Speaker 1: the head of the entire New England Carpenters Union.
Speaker 2: I got a PhD in constructionology with all those experiences
Speaker 2: and the exposure to the issues of real estate development politics,
Speaker 2: and because it's really what happens with construction is kind
Speaker 2: of I think, the essence of what a community thinks
Speaker 2: about itself, how it's going to grow, how it's going
Speaker 2: to develop.
Speaker 1: But when Mark reached retirement age, he didn't just hang
Speaker 1: up his hard helmet and pick up the golf clubs.
Speaker 1: Even after a fifty year career, Mark was still excited
Speaker 1: about the construction industry and he had a lot of
Speaker 1: knowledge that he wanted to share with others, and there
Speaker 1: were some very smart folks who were more than willing
Speaker 1: to listen.
Speaker 2: I retired some years ago, sort of semi retired.
Speaker 3: I guess.
Speaker 2: And now I am a fellow at the Center for
Speaker 2: Labor and adjust Economy at Harvard Law School, and I
Speaker 2: use that platform to teach about labor and politics and
Speaker 2: labor history and also to write. I've written three books
Speaker 2: and numerous op eds articles on the topics of labor, politics, history,
Speaker 2: et cetera.
Speaker 1: And Well, Mark didn't personally work on the buildings at Harvard,
Speaker 1: he knows a lot of the tradesmen and women who did. Yeah,
Speaker 1: do you ever find yourself at Harvard Law just, you know,
Speaker 1: looking at joinery or something like that, just drifting off.
Speaker 2: Honestly, I do most of my work from home. I write,
Speaker 2: and I see a lot of it as remote. So,
Speaker 2: but you know, when I go there, the Harvard Law
Speaker 2: School is has quite the beautiful buildings, and almost all
Speaker 2: of those buildings were built by my friends in the trades.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: And I always admire the Uh. It's it's nice to
Speaker 2: be there to be teaching in a context of an
Speaker 2: environment that my colleagues and friends built.
Speaker 3: Uh. And so that sort of brings it together.
Speaker 1: But there are more than enough buildings all around Boston
Speaker 1: that Mark did get to work on.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, I mean I think everybody who
Speaker 2: is a construction worker will go by, We'll drive around
Speaker 2: with their kids and say, you know, daddy worked on
Speaker 2: that or mommy worked on this, and it's it's a
Speaker 2: standard item. Uh, you know, sort of a joke but
Speaker 2: also a but a meaningful joke that people again, you know,
Speaker 2: I think that's part of the satisfaction of the work
Speaker 2: is that you can see that, you can point to
Speaker 2: to a structure that you helped create, and that's that's
Speaker 2: not a small thing.
Speaker 1: And if Mark Rlick's predictions of a resilient economy that
Speaker 1: continues a long hold true, and this tool belt generation
Speaker 1: continues to turn to the trades, hopefully in a few
Speaker 1: years we'll have a lot more men and women driving
Speaker 1: their children around wherever it is they live in this
Speaker 1: country and pointing to a building, a bridge, or even
Speaker 1: an Ivy League school and saying, you see that, kids,
Speaker 1: I built that for on the job. I'm Avery Thompson