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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that,

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Speaker 2: let's get to the show. Good morning everybody, Happy Thursday.

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Speaker 2: We have an amazing show for everybody today.

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Speaker 4: What do we have, Crystal, indeed we do.

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Speaker 1: We have some big breaking news to talk to you

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Speaker 1: about this morning. President Biden on CNN last night saying

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Speaker 1: he would hold some arm shipments to Israel if they

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Speaker 1: launch a quote major invasion in Darrafa. What exactly does

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Speaker 1: that mean? What are the implications, what are the reactions?

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Speaker 1: A lot to dig into there. We also have some

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Speaker 1: updates for you on the former president Donald Trump catching

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Speaker 1: additional legal breaks.

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Speaker 4: So we'll take a look at that.

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Speaker 1: Meanwhile, RFK Junior it was revealed suffered a I guess

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Speaker 1: you would say, rather unique medical conditionvolving his brain.

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Speaker 3: And literal reworms. Yeah, not to joke.

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Speaker 4: Every joke has already been made. It's literally true. Write

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Speaker 4: that down Rio his response. All of that good stuff.

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Speaker 1: Also really fascinating report and some new numbers about how

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Speaker 1: there's been a nature population shift in the last several

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Speaker 1: years out of cities and into rural America. You know,

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Speaker 1: the question was after the pandemic, would that shift back,

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Speaker 1: because we saw that during.

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Speaker 4: The pandemic with the remote work boom.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't look like it. It looks like this trend

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Speaker 1: is kind of here to stay. So obviously that has

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Speaker 1: huge implications, and we are really excited to be joined

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Speaker 1: today by the UN Special Rappertur for Human Rights in

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Speaker 1: the Occupied Territories. Francesca Albanize is going to join us

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Speaker 1: for an extended interview. Obviously incredibly relevant to talk to

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Speaker 1: her today as a potential invasion into Rafa Loom.

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Speaker 4: She's been taking a look.

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Speaker 1: Not only she published a report saying that there were

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Speaker 1: reasonable grounds to believe Israel is committing genocide in the

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Speaker 1: Gaza strip, but she's also been taking a close look

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Speaker 1: at the humanitarian situation and the status of AID, what's

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Speaker 1: going in, what's not going in. So really excited to

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Speaker 1: get to talk to her and hear her perspective on

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Speaker 1: all of these things today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's gonna be interesting.

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Speaker 2: To my knowledge, hasn't done a lot of interviews, especially

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Speaker 2: with a lot of media outlets, and we've been working

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Speaker 2: on this for quite some time.

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Speaker 3: So that's gonna be fun.

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Speaker 2: Before we get to that, though, we have interesting teas

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Speaker 2: that we can give all of you counterpoints.

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Speaker 3: Hosted another one of their debates.

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Speaker 2: It will be dropping for premium subscribers tonight and it

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Speaker 2: will be publicly available on Friday. But the important thing

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Speaker 2: here is about what it was revealed. So it was

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Speaker 2: Ilia Shapiro versus Glenn Greenwald on the topic of free speech.

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Speaker 2: Those of you who may not know, Ilia Shapiro is

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Speaker 2: a well known figure here in Washington, works at the

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Speaker 2: Manhattan Institute, previously at the Cato Institute, a libertarian constitutional lawyer,

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Speaker 2: but recently has taken very much of a turn to

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Speaker 2: try and I'll just say this, he's taken a turn

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Speaker 2: to go against some principles that I think previously would

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Speaker 2: have rubbed up against free speech.

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Speaker 3: I don't put that in the kindest way possible.

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Speaker 2: Glenn Greenwald debated him also on the subject, specifically, not

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Speaker 2: only around free speech, but whether the government and should

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Speaker 2: be cracking down on organizations that are calling for ceasefires

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Speaker 2: back in campus protests and all that.

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Speaker 3: So we have a little teas that we can show

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Speaker 3: all of you. Let's take a lesson.

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Speaker 5: Glenn asked about Jewish Voices for Peace. That's a fact question,

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Speaker 5: as lawyers would call it. This is why Attorney General

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Speaker 5: of Virginia, Jason Miaris, among others, are investigating the various

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Speaker 5: contacts between these organizations.

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Speaker 6: And that doesn't bother you that Jewish Voice for Our

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Speaker 6: Peace are being criminally investigated. This is righting attorney generals

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Speaker 6: who love Israel. That doesn't bother you.

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Speaker 5: Jewish Voices seems to me like the Holy Roman Empire,

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Speaker 5: and that it's neither holy, nor Roman nor an empire.

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Speaker 5: JVP is neither Jewish nor voices nor for.

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Speaker 3: People cares what you think of their opinions.

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Speaker 6: They have every right to engage in the American student.

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Speaker 5: I'm not saying they should be prosecuted for their speech.

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Speaker 5: I'm saying if investigations reveal that they're part of a

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Speaker 5: terrorist financing network and organizational instructure, then they should be

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Speaker 5: thrown off campus as a corporate body. This is not

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Speaker 5: about the rights of students or what they're saying whether

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Speaker 5: they should be prosecuted for that, and stop conflating those

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Speaker 5: kinds of issues.

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Speaker 6: No, but first of all, they have been thrown off

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Speaker 6: many campuses, and the argument is the same theory that

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Speaker 6: rondasantis use. If you accuse student student groups that are

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Speaker 6: in favor of the propolicanting cause of being guilty for

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Speaker 6: material support of terrorism, which is what you have to

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Speaker 6: claim in order to justify banning them from campus. Otherwise

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Speaker 6: it's such an obvious violation of the First Amendment free

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Speaker 6: speech if you don't have another pretext. And that's why

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Speaker 6: fire dot org took such great offense to what DeSantis

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Speaker 6: did in other colleges as well. If you if you

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Speaker 6: claim they're guilty of material support for terrorism as it

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Speaker 6: grounds for banning them from campus, obviously you're accusing them

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Speaker 6: of felonies. That's what material support. You're not allowed to

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Speaker 6: give material support.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Anyways, let's just say there's a lot more that came

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Speaker 2: from this over an hour, so if you want to

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Speaker 2: watch it and support the work the Counterpoints is doing

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Speaker 2: in our expansion breakingpoints dot com. Thank you everybody who

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Speaker 2: has been I think they've just been putting out excellent content.

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Speaker 3: They have the Don Lemon thing, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean, the Destiny debate was good, this in particular, So

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Speaker 2: this is just more of what you can expect.

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Speaker 3: And people are starting to take notice, right.

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Speaker 2: They understand this is a place where we can convene

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Speaker 2: things and they're really leaning into that. So congratulations to them,

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Speaker 2: and thank you to everybody for supporting them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you guys for making this happen. It's also

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Speaker 1: cool now we're Monday through Friday. Yeah, I haven't watched

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Speaker 1: this one yet. I'm very much looking forward to it.

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Speaker 1: I'm less familiar with Ilia obviously. Glenn we know very well,

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Speaker 1: and he's never afraid of a fight.

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Speaker 2: No, he's and you know, CoP's doing it two for

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Speaker 2: showing up. A lot of people won't do it, so

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Speaker 2: I'll at least he at least showed up. It went

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Speaker 2: up against Glenn, who you know, who's going to give

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Speaker 2: it to.

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Speaker 1: Me exactly whatever, Like whether you agree or disagree with Glenn,

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Speaker 1: I think everyone respects his debating abilities, so to show

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Speaker 1: up and rop your position, listen. Respect for being willing

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Speaker 1: to do that. And I'm personally looking forward to having

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Speaker 1: a chance to take a look. So, like Soccer said,

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Speaker 1: if you guys want to get that early, it's going

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Speaker 1: to drop tonight for premium subscribers. It'll be available for

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Speaker 1: everyone tomorrow. With that, let's go ahead and get to

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Speaker 1: the news of the day. So the big breaking news

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Speaker 1: this morning, and this is quite significant.

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Speaker 4: President Biden gave.

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Speaker 1: An exclusive interview to CNN's Aaron Burnett last night made

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Speaker 1: some big news. This comes in the wake of the

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Speaker 1: revelation that the US had paused a shipment of two

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Speaker 1: thousand pound bombs that was slated to go to Israel.

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Speaker 4: That news leaked out.

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Speaker 1: President Biden in this interview, revealing that he is saying

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Speaker 1: if they launch a major invasion into Rafa, he will

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Speaker 1: block additional weapons shipments.

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Speaker 4: Let's take a listen to exactly what he had to say.

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Speaker 7: I want to ask you about something happening as we

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Speaker 7: sit here and speak, and that of course, Israel is

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Speaker 7: striking Rafa. I know that you have paused, mister President,

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Speaker 7: shipments of two thousand pound US bombs to Israel due

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Speaker 7: to concern that they could be used in any offensive

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Speaker 7: on Rafa. Have those bombs, those powerful two thousand pound

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Speaker 7: bombs been used to kill civilians in Gaza.

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Speaker 8: Have been killed in Gaza as a consequence of those

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Speaker 8: bombs and other ways in which they go after population centers.

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Speaker 8: And I made it clear that if they go into Rafa,

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Speaker 8: they haven't gone on Raffa yet, they go into Rafa,

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Speaker 8: I'm not supplying the weapons that have been used historically

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Speaker 8: to deal with Rafa, to deal with the cities, to

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Speaker 8: deal with that problem. We're going to continue to make

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Speaker 8: sure because you're less secure in terms of Iron Dome

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Speaker 8: and their ability to respond to attacks that came out

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Speaker 8: of you the UH Middle least recently. But it's it's

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Speaker 8: just wrong. We're not going to We're not going to

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Speaker 8: supply the weapons and the artillery shells used that have been.

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Speaker 9: Used artillery shells as well, Yeah, artillery shells.

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Speaker 7: So just to understand what they're doing right now in Rafa,

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Speaker 7: is that not going into Rafa as you don't.

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Speaker 8: They haven't gone in the population centers. What they did,

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Speaker 8: it's right on the border and it's causing problems with

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Speaker 8: right now. In terms of with Egypt, which I've worked

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Speaker 8: very hard to make sure we have a relationship and help.

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Speaker 8: But I've made it clear to BB in the work Cabinet,

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Speaker 8: They're not going to get our support if in fact

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Speaker 8: they're going these population centers.

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Speaker 1: So he says here they haven't gone into Rafa, which

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Speaker 1: is a little confusing because they have. But now we're

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Speaker 1: kind of adjusting where the redline was. Previous it was

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Speaker 1: no invasion of Rafa. Then it was no invasion that

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Speaker 1: didn't account for humanitarianism. Now it's no incursion into major

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Speaker 1: population centers. So a lot of questions about exactly what

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Speaker 1: this means Sager, but you know, obviously very noteworthy. We'll

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Speaker 1: show you in a minute after I get Sager's reactions

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Speaker 1: some of the already you know, freak out from the right,

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Speaker 1: certainly total freak out from the Israeli side. Also very

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Speaker 1: noteworthy that he says these two thousand pound bombs have

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Speaker 1: been used to kill civilians, which raises the question also

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Speaker 1: of okay, so if you knew that, why did we

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Speaker 1: move Haaven and Earth to pass billions of dollars just

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Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago more in aid to ship

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Speaker 1: more of these weapons that you are acknowledging have been

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Speaker 1: used to massacre civilians?

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Speaker 4: So what do you make of these comments?

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Speaker 3: It's just sheer incoherence because it is.

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Speaker 2: The State Department just yesterday put on permanent pause any

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Speaker 2: report that would prove exactly what the President of the

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Speaker 2: United States just said. There's no substantive difference between Israeli

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Speaker 2: action in Rafa than there would be in communist or

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Speaker 2: in Gaza City. So what you know, change has happened here.

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Speaker 2: If anything, you've empowered the Israeli right, the Israeli military actions,

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Speaker 2: We've reaped the worst rewards, not only of civilian casualties,

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Speaker 2: but of international standing to Israel itself, to the United

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Speaker 2: States and its international community, obviously domestic turmoil here at home,

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Speaker 2: and now all of a sudden we seem to be

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Speaker 2: changing things up as if they've been going. It just

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Speaker 2: it makes very little sense and it actually sticks with

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Speaker 2: Biden to me, which is its incoherent. It has no

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Speaker 2: basis in actual like and stratage in terms of where

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Speaker 2: things are going. There's a question too as to whether

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Speaker 2: this is just being fed up over a hostage deal,

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Speaker 2: whether this is posturing in terms of negotiation out look,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I want to be clear and I want

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Speaker 2: to say this. I do support withholding or conditioning aid

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Speaker 2: based upon what the US does.

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Speaker 3: That seems like a basic thing.

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Speaker 2: But as we'll show you with some of our Republican

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Speaker 2: neocons here in Washington, that is anathema. Whenever you're an ally,

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Speaker 2: apparently you're owed anything that you could ever want from

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Speaker 2: the US Treasury. Really only oh well, we'll get to that. Well,

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Speaker 2: you know, no, that's a Ukraine Erasier crystal, of course,

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Speaker 2: and that's important, you know, to try and to underscore this.

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Speaker 2: So I would put this in the same way that

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Speaker 2: Biden was on Afghanistan, where you know, he eventually decides

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Speaker 2: to pull out. He does frankly and like one of

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Speaker 2: the worst most domestically politically disastrous ways possible. Prior to

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Speaker 2: that extends US troop levels in Afghanistan, but then it

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Speaker 2: backs Ukraine to the hill. He just has no coherence

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Speaker 2: or strategy in what he's being built upon. So I

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Speaker 2: will at least endorse the idea of conditioning AID. Well,

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Speaker 2: I support that, not just Asrael, by the way, all

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Speaker 2: nations that the United States were to give to. So

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Speaker 2: I don't know of a mixed bag. I wonder what

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Speaker 2: you think about it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there's a lot to say about this.

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Speaker 1: First of all, we don't even really know what I

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Speaker 1: mean right, because he's out here saying like, well, they

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Speaker 1: haven't gone into run.

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Speaker 4: Well they have gone into profas.

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Speaker 1: So is this red line any more meaningful than previous ones.

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Speaker 4: We don't know. We don't know.

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Speaker 1: Apparently, you know, the behind the receipt scenes reporting I

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Speaker 1: was reading Peter Baker this morning the New York Times,

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Speaker 1: is that the US wanted to quietly pause these shipments

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Speaker 1: as a use of private leverage against Israel. The Israelis

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Speaker 1: leaked the news in advance of Holocaust Remembrance Day. Apparently,

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Speaker 1: this interview with Biden was it was intentional that this

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Speaker 1: came after he gives the big Holocaust remembrance speech, once

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Speaker 1: again painting all the college protesters, who he apparently agrees

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Speaker 1: with in some respects as anti Semites. And so he

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Speaker 1: does that, then he comes out and makes this announcement,

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Speaker 1: and I think it just it's to be determined if

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Speaker 1: it means anything.

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Speaker 4: At all, I guess is what I would say.

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Speaker 1: And there's also a lot of reporting, you know, people

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes saying, listen, this doesn't mean that Israel's

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Speaker 1: not going to get every penny of the whatever fourteen

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Speaker 1: billion dollars that was just passed for it. He makes

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Speaker 1: sure to say offensive weapons. So there's a limit to

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Speaker 1: you know, in terms of how far he's willing to

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Speaker 1: go in terms of conditioning AID, if that AID even

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Speaker 1: is conditioned. So what is a major invasion? What are

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Speaker 1: we counting as a population center? We don't have a

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Speaker 1: lot of clarity with regards to any of that, so

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Speaker 1: TBD whether this means anything at all, I think another

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Speaker 1: you know, you just have to ask, like if you

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Speaker 1: know that our two thousand pound bombs are being used

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Speaker 1: to mass or civilians, which anyone who's looking at this

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Speaker 1: conflict knows and has known for literally months. I mean,

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Speaker 1: when was it that it got dropped on that refugee camp,

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Speaker 1: killing hundreds of people to possibly maybe you get one

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Speaker 1: Hamas fighters.

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Speaker 3: I'm that in November that I want to say that.

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Speaker 1: So we've known this for a long time. So the

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Speaker 1: most obvious question is what the hell took so long?

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Speaker 1: Most of the Gaza Strip is completely destroyed. Gaza City

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Speaker 1: con unis just rubble.

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Speaker 4: There's more rubble.

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Speaker 1: Gaza is tiny, right, It's like the size of Manhattan basically,

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Speaker 1: and there is more rubble in the Gaza Strip than

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Speaker 1: there is in all of Ukraine. Okay, in a much

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Speaker 1: shorter period time and a much, much, much much smaller

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Speaker 1: land mass forty thousand Palestinians. We really don't know the toll,

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Speaker 1: to be honest with you, dead all six hundred thousand

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Speaker 1: kids in Rafa are injured, sick, malnourished. You've got babies

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Speaker 1: starving to death, and so you just look at it.

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Speaker 1: You're like, I'm with you, said, of course, yes, this

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Speaker 1: is the correct position.

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Speaker 4: What the hell took you so long?

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Speaker 1: I think one thing we have to say is the

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Speaker 1: protests seem to be putting pressure on them, like they

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Speaker 1: seem to be feeling certainly the political heat from the

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Speaker 1: protest movement across the country, from the fact that, you know,

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Speaker 1: public opinion and especially Democratic opinion, is very much against

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden on this. There's a new poll yesterday from ZTEO.

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Speaker 1: Fifty seven percent of Democrats say yes, it's a genocide,

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Speaker 1: only some twenty percent say it's not. Firmatively say it's not.

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Speaker 1: So he's dramatically at odds with the Democratic Party. He

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Speaker 1: knows this is a political problem for him. I think

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Speaker 1: that's why this is happening right now. He is very

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Speaker 1: reluctant to make any change in the unconditional support of

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Speaker 1: Israel policy. And so I think you have to say

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Speaker 1: that that political pressure is part of why you're getting

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Speaker 1: at least this rhetorical shift, and what appears to have

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Speaker 1: been more than a rhetorical shift at least in terms

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Speaker 1: of pausing one shipment for now.

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Speaker 3: I think it's possible it could be.

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Speaker 2: I'm actually not sure how much it has to do

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Speaker 2: with the domestic political pressure. I'm starting to think a

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Speaker 2: lot of it could also be in terms of international pressure,

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Speaker 2: because what we should remember is that Arafa c invasion

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Speaker 2: cross and all that is a genuine demarcation point, both

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Speaker 2: for Turkey and for Egypt, and so there is and

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Speaker 2: has been a lot of leaking behind the scenes. I

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Speaker 2: don't I think you might have seen this as well.

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Speaker 2: Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. Saudi Arabia used

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Speaker 2: the term genocide for the very first time actually after

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Speaker 2: the Rafa invasion.

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Speaker 3: So there was the threatening of total.

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Speaker 2: International isolation of the US from Saudi Arabia, from Egypt

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Speaker 2: and from others. And the Egyptians in particular have been

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Speaker 2: putting huge and tremendous pressure behind the scenes because it

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Speaker 2: is a breach of the nineteen seventy two agreements. I'm

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Speaker 2: not saying that domestic political pressure didn't have anything. It's

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Speaker 2: a confluence events like anything else. I do think though,

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Speaker 2: we shouldn't, you know, we should remember that the US

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Speaker 2: position in the Middle East has been so degraded now

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Speaker 2: at this point that this really could have been a

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Speaker 2: genuine break, you know, to actually see a full on

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Speaker 2: invasion of Rafa. For we already saw with the Saudis,

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Speaker 2: which is a key strategic ally for the US, and

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Speaker 2: obviously they've got their finger on the Opec oil and

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Speaker 2: Biden doesn't want to screw with that. The Egyptians and

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Speaker 2: the NATO, I mean, one of the things that we

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Speaker 2: can't forget either is Turkey after the invasion of Rafa

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Speaker 2: was announced, pulled all trade with Israel. It was a major,

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Speaker 2: major point in terms of international politics. So I think

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Speaker 2: that that was a significant driver of the fact as well.

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Speaker 1: Maybe, but in my experience, the US response doesn't really

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Speaker 1: care that much about international opinion or like, you know,

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Speaker 1: what's out of like what the Egyptians saying, we fund

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Speaker 1: them significantly to we give them a huge amount of aid,

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Speaker 1: and certainly politicians do have a track record of caring

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Speaker 1: about their own re election prospects. So don't know, like

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Speaker 1: you said, could have been a confluence of factors. But

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Speaker 1: I think the fact that the protests have become so heated,

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Speaker 1: such a divisive issue within the Democratic Party, and that

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Speaker 1: Democratic public sentiment has gone so aggressively against Joe Biden,

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Speaker 1: public sentiment in general has gone so aggressively against Joe Biden,

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Speaker 1: I would say, has to be considered as a factor here,

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Speaker 1: you know, in terms of the response.

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Speaker 4: Ryan made this point on Twitter yesterday, which is so true.

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Speaker 1: Like Joe Biden has been the most pro Israel president

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Speaker 1: I think in American history. I think it's hard to

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Speaker 1: argue otherwise. At every turn he has given them everything

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Speaker 1: they wanted, from diplomatic cover obviously, the weapons and the aid.

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Speaker 1: He's gone out and gone with bb Netanya who's lines

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Speaker 1: neraring college kids as Nazis. Like every step of the way,

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Speaker 1: it has been the bear huck. And yet the minute

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Speaker 1: that he even threatens to pause weapons shipments, even you know,

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Speaker 1: to condition aid at all, everyone who's pro is Or,

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Speaker 1: including John Fetterman, all of the Mike Johnson, Mitch McConnell,

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Speaker 1: et cetera.

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Speaker 4: They turn like that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he doesn't get any credit from them about

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Speaker 1: the fact that he did unconditionally support them. It was

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Speaker 1: the most pro Israel president that we've literally ever had

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Speaker 1: in history. The Minity changes man that the knives are

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Speaker 1: out for him. Let's put this up on the screen.

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Speaker 1: You've got Bill Ackman, billionaire's been just you know, causing

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Speaker 1: all kinds of trouble and really involved in the whole

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Speaker 1: campus situation, funded those violent counter protesters in UCLA.

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Speaker 4: Says crazy. This is one of.

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Speaker 1: The worst acts against an ally of a sitting president ever.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully this means he won't be sitting for much longer.

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Speaker 1: You've gotten Mitt Romney says, we stand by allies, we

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Speaker 1: don't second guess them. Biden's dithering on Israel weapons is

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Speaker 1: bad policy and a terrible message to Israel, our allies,

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Speaker 1: and the world. So obviously that the you know, vehemently

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Speaker 1: pro Israel crowd immediately turns on him, and as Ryan

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Speaker 1: pointed out on Twitter, like the left progressives are never

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Speaker 1: going to forgive him at this point, Like there are

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Speaker 1: so many dead and so much destruction, it really doesn't

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Speaker 1: matter what he does. You can't you can't undo the

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Speaker 1: death and the damage and the trauma that has already

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Speaker 1: been caused. So politically, you know, he's made his own bed.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing that I point out too is,

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Speaker 1: you know, day before he was basically painting Israel criticism

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Speaker 1: as anti Semitic. So if that's your framework, and then

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Speaker 1: the very next day you are yourself sizing Israel and

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Speaker 1: you know, voicing some of the concerns that this protest

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Speaker 1: movement is all about. Yeah, again, you've made your own bed.

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Speaker 1: You've set the political framework that being critical of Israel

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Speaker 1: in any way is effectively equivalent to being a Nazi.

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Speaker 1: And then you you know, guess what happens when you

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Speaker 1: then have to go and criticize Israel. The pro Israel

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Speaker 1: crowd paints you exactly the way that they do these

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Speaker 1: you know, student protesters who are on college campuses.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let me reiterate what Mitt Romney said. We stand

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Speaker 2: by allies, we don't second guess them. Biden's dithering is

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Speaker 2: bad policy and a terrible message is crazy. Get yeah,

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Speaker 2: exactly how many Israeli troops served in Afghanistan?

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Speaker 3: Anyone want to know? Zero?

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Speaker 2: How many Israelly troops served in Iraq? Even though they're

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Speaker 2: the ones who asked us to go in there. Zero

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Speaker 2: how many is how much Israeli dollars supported the US

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Speaker 2: Global War on Terror in both of those zero I

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Speaker 2: can go on forever. I mean, where there israelly troops

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Speaker 2: on the ground in Vietnam. No, it's like, what ally

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Speaker 2: are we talking about here?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this is so crazy.

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Speaker 1: This is the John Fatterman line, is like, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: matter what they do, We're gonna support them no matter what.

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Speaker 4: And it's like, that is insane. Even if you're just.

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Speaker 1: Looking at narrow American interests, it's insane. Obviously if you're

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Speaker 1: looking at morality, you're literally saying like, no, I don't

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Speaker 1: think they're doing a gemside, but even if they were,

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Speaker 1: I would still support them. Like what, how can It

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter what they do, You're gonna send them whatever

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Speaker 1: they want, no matter what. That is crazy, It makes

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Speaker 1: no sense. And yet this is I mean, really, Israel

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Speaker 1: is very unique. You might put Ukraine in the same category.

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Speaker 1: I think Israel's very unique in people's willingness to just

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Speaker 1: say nope, don't care, don't care how many civilians are

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Speaker 1: just lotter, don't care that it's against her and just

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Speaker 1: don't care that we've turned all of the Middle East

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Speaker 1: against us, don't care that our troops are being fired

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Speaker 1: on because of Israel's policy, our support of Israel's policy,

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Speaker 1: don't care.

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Speaker 4: It's Israel no matter what.

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Speaker 1: Like you didn't you didn't swear an oath to Israel

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Speaker 1: when you were born in as a United States senator.

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Speaker 1: And but that's the way they act, like we're going

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Speaker 1: to put their interest over American interests, setting it explicitly.

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Speaker 1: I just it blows my mind, honestly blows my mind.

437
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,560
Speaker 2: I would be remissed if I didn't shout out of

438
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,120
Speaker 2: Jonah Goldberg. This is a gentleman, one of those never

439
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,560
Speaker 2: trumpers out there. He actually I have a personal beef

440
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,160
Speaker 2: because he implied I was anti Semitic whenever I said

441
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 2: that the US military should only be used to defend America.

442
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:26,520
Speaker 4: That never happens.

443
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,040
Speaker 2: They never throw that flame around for what were I

444
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 2: have heard from a lot of reliably anti Trump people,

445
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 2: I mean really really anti Trump people have had it

446
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,359
Speaker 2: with Biden tonight. Anecdotal but very telling in my circle.

447
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,159
Speaker 2: So this is I mean, it was just digging about it.

448
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,280
Speaker 2: It's like Afghanistan, you know, which they also had dual

449
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 2: loyalty to It's like one of those Oh that was fine,

450
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 2: you know all these other things they supposedly stand for conservatives.

451
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 2: I was, oh, that's just not a tumbbout Israel. That's

452
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 2: the one where we got to turn. Let's go and

453
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:55,879
Speaker 2: put the next one up on the screen. It has

454
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,880
Speaker 2: some of the details that Crystal was talking about. Militarily,

455
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 2: Actually there's some nificance here, but because we're specifically talking

456
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 2: about the two thousand and the five hundred pound bombs,

457
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 2: so it was eighteen hundred two thousand pound bombs and

458
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 2: seventeen hundred five hundred pound bombs quote long seen as

459
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 2: experts most likely to be targeted for any potential restrictions

460
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,360
Speaker 2: because not only how destructive they are in urban settings,

461
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,359
Speaker 2: but because of Israel's inability to actually manufacture or buy

462
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 2: them for themselves. That's another thing that is not talked

463
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 2: about enough here. Israel is a wealthy nation. Anybody who's

464
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 2: ever been there, it's like being in California. I mean literally,

465
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:35,359
Speaker 2: they have universal health care, they have a crazy social

466
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,640
Speaker 2: welfare state. They have the ability to support a massive

467
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 2: chunk of their population which does not work and is

468
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 2: paid by the state to have children and pray all day,

469
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 2: and you know, that's their society.

470
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:48,879
Speaker 3: They could do what they want.

471
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 2: But I personally think that in the wealthy startup nation

472
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 2: that they love to brag about, for anybody who's ever

473
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,679
Speaker 2: been there, you know what I'm saying, Well, they can

474
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 2: pay for their own shit. Is that really such a

475
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 2: controversial position. But as you said, Crystal, in the United

476
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 2: States of America, that is a very controversial position to take.

477
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: There was also a discourse really a while back. It's

478
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 1: kind of a dead discourse now at this point because

479
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 1: it's so like patently obviously false. But of this whole like,

480
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 1: you know, well, Israel's their own country, and we really

481
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 1: don't have any say over what they do, you know,

482
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 1: like we don't really have any leverage. All these people

483
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 1: who claim that we could just you know, on a dime,

484
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 1: we could do something and they change their behavior.

485
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 4: This is crazy. Clearly we do have leverage. Clearly it

486
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:32,640
Speaker 4: does matter.

487
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,199
Speaker 1: There's already reports and is there's really press about how

488
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,919
Speaker 1: dire it would get for them very quickly if we

489
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,400
Speaker 1: actually cut off all of these weapons shipments.

490
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 4: They would be in a real bind.

491
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 1: They have to make some real decisions about what they

492
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,719
Speaker 1: can and can't do, because remember they're not just in

493
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 1: the Gaza strip. They're also taking actions in the West Bank.

494
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 1: They're also you know, fighting on the Northern Front versus Hezbola.

495
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 1: You know, they had the back and forth with Iran

496
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: very recently that was started, let's never forget by their

497
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 1: provocation of bombing an Iranian embassy building in Damascus. It

498
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 1: really is important for people to understand all of this

499
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 1: is allowed and enabled by us. It can't happen with

500
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 1: on us, It really can't, it really can't, not just

501
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 1: from the weapons, from the diplomatic cover. How integral were

502
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 1: we shot down most of the Iranian drones and missiles

503
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 1: that were headed to is Or. We shot down a

504
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: majority of them. And that's why you know, this kind

505
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 1: even though there aren't US troops involved, although US troops

506
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 1: are coming under fire because of our support for Israeli actions,

507
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 1: but even though it's not directly our boots on the

508
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 1: ground in Gaza, we are so integral to this we

509
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 1: allow this to happen. And so yeah, there's a you know,

510
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: there's a full freak out about what it could mean.

511
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: Even just the pause of these shipments, some of that

512
00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 1: freak out was was evidenced even after before or Biden

513
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 1: made these latest comments, after it came became public that

514
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 1: a weapon shipment had been paused. We have an Israeli

515
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 1: member the Kanessa and Lakud official, Tollie Gottlieb, who had

516
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 1: this to say. We can put this up on the

517
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 1: screen and I'll read it. She says, the US is

518
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: threatening not to give us precise missiles. Oh yeah, well

519
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,360
Speaker 1: I got news for the US. We have imprecise missiles

520
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 1: and we have the right to defend ourselves. So maybe

521
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: instead of using a precise missile and taking down a

522
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: specific room or a specific building, I'll use my imprecise

523
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 1: missiles and I'll just collapse ten buildings, ten buildings, That's

524
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: what I'll do.

525
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 9: She So.

526
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 1: Just think about this, like, because you are withholding two

527
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: thousand pounds bombs, precise weapons because out of accountability for

528
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 1: our war crimes and the fact they've been used to

529
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: bomb civilians, guess what our response is to bomb even

530
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 1: more civilians.

531
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 4: And you know, once again.

532
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: A lot of discourse about what college students have to

533
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: say about this conflict. This is a member of the Kanesse,

534
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: a senior party official of Baby at Nyahu's party. This

535
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 1: is a powerful individual, and she talks in a just

536
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: brazenly atrocious manner and yes, genocidal manner about how she'll

537
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: take down ten buildings.

538
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 4: She doesn't care.

539
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 1: And the gall of these people after all that Joe

540
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: Biden has stood by you while you did, and the

541
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: minute there's even a little bit of a critique, they flip.

542
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 4: On a dime and they're completely indignant.

543
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: Ryan Grim, our own Ryan Grim at the State Department

544
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: briefing yesterday, asked Matthew Miller about these comments and pretty

545
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: surprisingly actually got a response.

546
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 4: Let's take a listen to that.

547
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 10: Leave Lacuda official. Remember the Kanessa. She said this, She said,

548
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 10: the US is threatening not to give us precise missiles.

549
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 10: Oh yeah, well, I've got news for the US. We

550
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 10: have imprecise missiles. We'll use it. We'll just collapse ten buildings,

551
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 10: ten buildings.

552
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 3: That's what we'll do.

553
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 10: So she's threatening that if Israel is held accountable for

554
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 10: war crimes, they will respond by committing greater war crimes.

555
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 10: What kind of effect does that have?

556
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 9: I'd say those decision making.

557
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 11: Those comments are absolutely deplorable, and senior members of the

558
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 11: Israeli government should refrain from making them. We will continue

559
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 11: to make our policy assessments based on what's in the

560
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 11: best interests of the American people, what is in the

561
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:26,640
Speaker 11: best interests.

562
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 9: Of the region.

563
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 1: Absolutely deplorable. I'm surprised you got a response, because usually

564
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 1: all just be like, oh, I didn't see it, or

565
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 1: we'll look into it, or you know, they shouldn't say

566
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 1: bad things, but we support them, et cetera, et cetera.

567
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 4: But he got a direct response.

568
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 3: Yes, he certainly did.

569
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 2: There's also this, This is my personal favorite, Crystal, I'll

570
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 2: put this up please on the screen, is that the

571
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 2: Israeli government is now warning that they they're warning the

572
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: US that if you pause weapons, that will jeopardize hostage negotiations.

573
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 2: So they're basically saying, if you take weapons away from us,

574
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 2: then we will pull out of hostage negotiations, and we

575
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 2: need those weapons to continue the war so we can

576
00:27:59,160 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 2: free the hostages.

577
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 3: Do you understand what I'm saying.

578
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 2: Yes, it's a very interesting circular logic that we all

579
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 2: have here in terms of the end result.

580
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 3: I genuinely don't know.

581
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 2: I saw It's von ben Gevier a tweet out this

582
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 2: morning coromote quote Hamas Heart Biden, which.

583
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:14,719
Speaker 3: Is not pretty instinct.

584
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 2: That's correct for a I mean a member of the

585
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 2: Israeli government. I would not tolerate that from any foreign

586
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 2: government who is a recipient of foreign aid if I

587
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 2: were Biden. Apparently he's been tolerating things like that now

588
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 2: for quite some time.

589
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 3: But yeah, it gets me to the point of just like,

590
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 3: who do you think you are?

591
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 12: Man?

592
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 3: Who again, who do you think you are?

593
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have armed weapons manufacturers in your country? No,

594
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 2: you know you need us, So how about you shut

595
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 2: your mouth and actually show us a little bit of respect.

596
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 2: But that's their arrogance, that's who they are.

597
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: Well, and we know where that arrogance comes from, because

598
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: they've gotten away with everything up to this point. I

599
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 1: mean every like everything that the Biden has expressed was

600
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: a problem for him that he's asked to do and

601
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: had these tough conversations and very tough conversations about they

602
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: just did it anyway. I mean the strike on the

603
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: Ranian diplomatic building that was apparently that wasn't cleared with

604
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: the U.

605
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 4: They just did it.

606
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: And then you know, our have to drag our asses

607
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: into this thing and shoot down the missiles, make sure

608
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: that we're protecting Israel, etcetera, etcetera.

609
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 4: So Biden has created.

610
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: This climate of you know, just total brazen arrogance and

611
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,719
Speaker 1: indifference to what the you know, American president might think

612
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: about things. He created that climate, and in terms of

613
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: the discourse, he fueled that discourse as well. You know,

614
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: how many times have we heard that, Oh, anyone who

615
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: anyone who's out protesting against this war, against Israeli actions

616
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: in the Gaza strip, they love Hamas, They're terrors, they

617
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 1: are Hamas, they say, I am Hamas, et cetera. So

618
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: when you co sign that branding of the entire movement

619
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: as being pro Hamas, then don't be surprised when that

620
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: rhetoric's used against you.

621
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 3: Yep. I couldn't agree with you more.

622
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 2: And the end results of this will all be very interesting.

623
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 2: Will Biden stay the course, We'll see. He has been

624
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 2: very stubborn sometimes in the past. He is also very

625
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 2: willing to cave. Personally, I think he's going to cave.

626
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 2: This is the strongest lobby in the history of Washington,

627
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 2: in terms of his own the people who are around him,

628
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 2: in terms of what the I mean think too about

629
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 2: what the Israelies can mobilize for our own domestic politics.

630
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 2: Like you may think, these campus protests and all that

631
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 2: can make your life miserable. What's even more miserable is

632
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: when all your donors and all these other people who

633
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: are so into the cost start pulling money away and

634
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 2: start exerting their influence.

635
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 3: I could start and.

636
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 2: Plus the media whipping this up, you know, into a frenzy.

637
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: I wouldn't bet so bet. I would not bet a

638
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 2: lot that he stays the course on this.

639
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, so tbd.

640
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: What if anything these comments actually meant. Meanwhile, there's been

641
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: an insane legislative response to, in particular the campus protests.

642
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: The latest entry into this book as Marshall Blackburn, who

643
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: previously said that student protesters should be put on a

644
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: terrorism no fly list, she is now actually working to

645
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: codify that, drafting legislation along with Centator Roger Marshall that

646
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 1: would do exactly that. She talked about her plans on

647
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: her Instagram. Let's take a listen.

648
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 9: Here's what I believe.

649
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 12: If they are foreign students and they're here on a visa,

650
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 12: we will pull the visa and deport them. They will

651
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 12: never come back in this country. If they're American students

652
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 12: in their own student loans that are text Bay or

653
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 12: funded by the way, let's pull those student loans. Anyone

654
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 12: who stands in shouts I am humus. Then what they

655
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 12: should do is to be placed on the terrorist watch list.

656
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 12: If they're going to tell us they are a terrorist,

657
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 12: we should believe them.

658
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: And obviously the no fly list there actually pretty well.

659
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 2: Because the thing is is that in that video Crystal

660
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 2: she advocates just for foreign students, but actually, if you

661
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 2: take a look at the legislation, we can put this

662
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 2: up there on the screen, it would actually designate student

663
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 2: protesters as terrorists and add them to the no filists.

664
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 2: So this actually includes US citizens, a genuine breach in.

665
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 3: My opinion of constitutional rights.

666
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 4: Unfortunately.

667
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, but unfortunately, during the War on Terror, as we

668
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 2: all discovered, being on the no filist actually doesn't technically

669
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 2: violate your constitutional rights according to the Bush administration, the

670
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: Department of Justice, and some Supreme Court litigation that unfortunately

671
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 2: did not go the way that it should have. So

672
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 2: this again actually demonstrates the danger of the post nine

673
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 2: to eleven security state as it is then applied to

674
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: US citizens and specifically actually in this case, because we

675
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 2: are talking about people who are protesting in that case.

676
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not going to defend the no filists

677
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 2: of that time, but the justification was is that they're

678
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 2: actively members of a.

679
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 3: Foreign terrorist organization, right.

680
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 2: In this case, like aiding and abetting the enemy, right,

681
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 2: Like genuinely treasonous behavior. Again, it was the way it

682
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 2: was applied diculous, and hence I don't support it. In

683
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 2: this case though, we're talking about people who are protesting

684
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 2: the actions of a foreign government then being labeled as

685
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 2: terrorists and being included on the no filist Another thing

686
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 2: I would point out to many of our right wing

687
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 2: listeners is don't forget how there were no flylist was

688
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: trotted out after the January sixth prosecutions and members of

689
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 2: the you know Trump you know or whatever pro Trump

690
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 2: MAGA people were also placed on the no fly list

691
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 2: as well, debanked, and basically had the power of both

692
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 2: the state and the non institutional parties or institutional non

693
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 2: governmental organizations thrown at you.

694
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 3: We're watching the exact same thing that's happened in play

695
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 3: out right here.

696
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: I mean, it is so clear that whyatt was so

697
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: important to oppose things like this at the time during

698
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: the War on Terror, because you could see the way

699
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: even though the public was all behind it and it

700
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: felt good at yeah, we're going to make sure these

701
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: terrorists can't fly and we got to keep ourselves safe.

702
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: Like it was very it was very understandable that the

703
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,719
Speaker 1: public had that sentiment, but you had to look at

704
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: the details and say, well, how else could this be used?

705
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: How is it being there's literally no judicial oversight of this.

706
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: It's kept secret. Who's being even put on this list.

707
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 1: Those were all massive problems and red flags at the time.

708
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,800
Speaker 1: And now the way that we see it's being used

709
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,359
Speaker 1: against American citizens who it would apply to, Like you know,

710
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: these kids who are camping out on their campuses, they

711
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: get charged with trust passing boom, you're a terrorist and

712
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 1: you're on a no fly list. Like that's crazy. It's

713
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: absolutely crazy if you look at if you look at that, Texas.

714
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: That's not the only legislative initiative either. We didn't pull

715
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: an element for this one. But I was just telling

716
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: Soccer this morning. There's another bill that was introduced by

717
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: Andy Ogles of Tennessee and Jeff Duncan of South Carolina

718
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: and Randy Weber of Texas that would send college protesters

719
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: to Gaza for six months if they, I believe a

720
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: similar thing, if they, like you know, were charged with

721
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: trespassing or some sort of like broken window or whatever,

722
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 1: then they would be sent to Gaza for six months.

723
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 1: And the thing that Andy Ogle said about this is

724
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,359
Speaker 1: like they wouldn't last a minute there, and it's like, yeah,

725
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: that's their point, is that Gaza is under a massive

726
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: assault and.

727
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 4: People are being starved. Like if you.

728
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: Support that, maybe you're the one that should be sent

729
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 1: to Gaza. If you think there's rarely military is so

730
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: humane and everything's all well and good and Gaza, perhaps

731
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: you're the one who should go and tell us how

732
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: great it is, tell us how much aid is going in,

733
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,399
Speaker 1: let us know how it's going there. So, I mean,

734
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 1: just the climate is I've never seen anything. I even

735
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: going back to the height of the War on Terror,

736
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: I genuinely have not seen anything quite like what we're experiencing.

737
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 2: I think the War on Terror was worse, you know,

738
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 2: freedom fries and all that. Let's not erase some of

739
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 2: the other insanity that happened at that time. The other

740
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 2: thing we can point out to let's put this up

741
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 2: there on the screen. And I guess what makes it

742
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 2: crazier is that we're we are displaying significant similar levels

743
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 2: of his area on behalf of a country and of

744
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 2: a conflict of which we are not even technically the

745
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 2: primary actor in.

746
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 3: And I think that is what is so calling.

747
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 2: Here we have from Jewish Insider House bills will ask

748
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: the US Holocaust Museum to develop curriculum on the October

749
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 2: seventh attack, creating resources for secondary schools and elementary schools

750
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 2: to teach about October seven and subsequent anti Semitic and

751
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: anti Israel sentiment. Now, the reason you should all be

752
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 2: very afraid of this is because, unlike the Andy Oogles bill,

753
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 2: this thing actually has a chance of going somewhere, and

754
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 2: going somewhere, I think, well, don't forget the International Holocaust

755
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 2: Remembrance definition of anti Semitism is the exact definition of

756
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 2: anti Semitism, which was then passed through the US Congress.

757
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 2: So this demonstrates very clearly that we would be using

758
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 2: definitions outsourcing them to foreign organizations or non governmental organs.

759
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 2: They should have a direct interest in protecting the State

760
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 2: of Israel and pushing an agenda and then importing and

761
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 2: putting that into US classrooms.

762
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 3: Now, if we're talking about science, okay, that's.

763
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 2: One thing, right, Well, we're talking about learning about a

764
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 2: foreign government. First of all, why should like little kids

765
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 2: even be learning about October seventh at all?

766
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:11,720
Speaker 3: Like, for what purpose?

767
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 2: You know, whenever you're like sub eight years old, to

768
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 2: the extent they should learn about October seventh. Yeah, think

769
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 2: they should learn about autrocities, I guess all over the world,

770
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 2: and maybe about what happened subsequently in US support and

771
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 2: all of that. But we we don't even spend enough

772
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,439
Speaker 2: time on our own history of like Vietnam or World

773
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 2: War One. I think we can spend a little bit

774
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 2: less time on the histories of other places.

775
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:33,879
Speaker 4: I mean, listen, you probably hear this and you're like, okay,

776
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 4: what's wrong with learning?

777
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 3: No, you should have a problem with that.

778
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: If it was going to be all right, we're going

779
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 1: to we're going to take a look at this comp

780
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: We're going to dig into the origins. We're going to

781
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 1: tell you what happened so you can understand why this,

782
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: you know, continues to persist in the nature of the occupation. No, no, no,

783
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 1: this is not what you're going to get from this

784
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: Josh Gottheimer bill. The bill requests the new curriculum include

785
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: information about October seventh attack, how the history of anti

786
00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: Semitism contributed to the attack, not about the land dispute

787
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: in the occupation and the blockade, but the history of

788
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: anti Semitism, as President Biden said, the ancient hatreds and desires. Right,

789
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: that's the only thing that led to October seventh. Okay,

790
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: even though there were many non Jews who were killed

791
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: on that day. By the way, it's also going to

792
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: talk about the quote unquote spread of anti Semitism and

793
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 1: anti Israel rhetoric on campuses, conflating of course, anti Semitism

794
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,240
Speaker 1: and anti Israel rhetoric and the spread of anti Israel

795
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: rhetoric on social media. So we've got to also learn

796
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 1: how TikTok was. You know, the real villain of October

797
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 1: seventh was actually TikTok. So it's not like you're getting

798
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: an actually factual understanding for our children of what led

799
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: to October seventh, what happened on October seventh, what happened

800
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 1: after October seventh. No, you're getting a it's like the

801
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,760
Speaker 1: Israeli government wrote the propaganda piece for our own kids,

802
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: which in effect they basically are. Because I guarantee, if

803
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 1: you look at these two individuals who are sponsoring this

804
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 1: bill's contribution history, I would bet very strongly that they've

805
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: received some I know, for a fat Gotttheimer. I don't

806
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: really know the other dude that much, but that they've

807
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 1: received some campaign finance that may have, you know, helped

808
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: to fortify them in their pro Israel no matter what sentiment.

809
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 4: Just a guess here, that's right.

810
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 1: We are extraordinarily fortunate to be joined this morning by

811
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: Francesca Albaniz. She is an international lawyer and also the

812
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: UN's Special Rapperteur for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories.

813
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 4: Welcome, it's great to have you.

814
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 9: Thank you do so.

815
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: To start with, I wanted to get your reaction to

816
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: some breaking news from yesterday President Biden saying that he

817
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 1: would halt some weaponshipments to Israel if they launched what

818
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 1: he described as a major invasion into Rafa. Given what

819
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: you know about the humanitarian situation on the ground in

820
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: Gaza and in Rafa specifically, I wonder if you could

821
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 1: speak to the significance of his comments.

822
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 9: I welcome this decision.

823
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 13: I wish it had come earlier because the situation in

824
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 13: the Gaza strip is catastrophic, and of course all the

825
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 13: more in Rapha, where one point five million people are amasked,

826
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 13: including six hundred thousand children. The fact that there is

827
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 13: no new shipment of weapons central Israel again is positive,

828
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 13: although I understand that Israel's reaction has been that they

829
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 13: will use.

830
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 9: What I have.

831
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 2: So one of the things that we wanted to get

832
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 2: from you is just a broader discussion of some of

833
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,280
Speaker 2: the case that you had brought forward or had argued

834
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,399
Speaker 2: before before the ICC. So I'm wondering if you could

835
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 2: give our audience, a US based audience, a view into

836
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 2: some of the case that facts in the matter that

837
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 2: you were able to discuss. Why you think it is

838
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 2: important now in this context, even with the war continuing.

839
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 13: Well, the ICC has jurisdiction over crimes of war, crimes,

840
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 13: genocide and crimes against humanity, as well as the crime

841
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 13: and aggression.

842
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,320
Speaker 9: I do not have the detail.

843
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 13: Of how the ic C and the Officer of the

844
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 13: Prosecutor are qualifying the crimes they might have found in

845
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 13: the context of their investigation in the situation of Palestine.

846
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 9: But I, as you might know from my.

847
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 13: Latest report presented to the Human Rights Counsel of the

848
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 13: United Nations. I think that the grounds to believe that

849
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:41,959
Speaker 13: Israel has committed genocide in Gada are there, so I'm

850
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 13: anxious to tique the ICC proceeding with hopefully arrest warrants,

851
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 13: of course, both against Israeli leaders and Hamas leaders for

852
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 13: what has happened.

853
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 4: On seventh over so Frantasica.

854
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,760
Speaker 1: In the context of your report, which found reasonable grounds

855
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 1: to believe that Israel is committing genocide in the Gaza Strip,

856
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: what Israel's defenders will say is they are working hard

857
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:11,280
Speaker 1: to avoid civilian.

858
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 4: Casualties in Rafa.

859
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: They leafleitted asking people to evacuate. They say, listen, what

860
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: other country uses these sort of techniques to get civilians

861
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 1: out of harm's way. That it is Hamas's fault that

862
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 1: there has been such a high civilian death toll because

863
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: they operate out of population centers and places allegedly like hospitals.

864
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: What is your response to that critique of your analysis, Well.

865
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 13: This is not what has happened on the ground in

866
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 13: Gaza for the past seven months, and again we are

867
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:48,399
Speaker 13: talking of Uger half a year. All the casualties and

868
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 13: the destruction seventy percent of Gaza has been destroyed. In

869
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 13: terms of civilian infrastructure, including a livelihood, the essential livelihood.

870
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 13: There is a total located that has been ongoing which

871
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:08,240
Speaker 13: prevents unfactored aid including water, of.

872
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,760
Speaker 9: Food, meditation, and fuel entering Gaza.

873
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 13: This has been hampered over and over, and I reject

874
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 13: the argument that they have tried to avoid civilian casualties

875
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 13: because seventy percent of the victims of the reported victims

876
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 13: of this conflict have steadily been women and children, and

877
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 13: so this has been the situation that should have been

878
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,319
Speaker 13: addressed from the first weeks of the conflict. That there

879
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 13: is another element to beta collected by many victims and

880
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 13: survivors that have investigated over the past months, they said

881
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 13: that since the very beginning they realized that Israel.

882
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 9: Was after something else with this war because.

883
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 13: They have seen Israel hitting indiscriminately symbols of Palestinian civilian

884
00:43:54,360 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 13: life like universities, churches, again, essential livelihoods and hospitals. I

885
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 13: also argue in the report that Israel has not rejected

886
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 13: the allegations of the conduct that test taken place. They

887
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 13: have differently qualified it, just defined it as in compliance

888
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 13: with international Human Italian law, which I called you, which

889
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 13: I call human Italian camouflash. Israel has justified by using

890
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 13: international human Italian law jargon its military operations, for example, saying, yeah,

891
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 13: but we ordered evacuations. The first evacuation was an evaluation

892
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 13: order that the target at one point one million people,

893
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,359
Speaker 13: and it was said in an area that, by the way,

894
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 13: comprised the twenty two hospitals, and they said, never remains

895
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 13: behind will be considered a terrorist accomplice. And this is

896
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 13: not the way to protect civilians. All the more Over,

897
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,800
Speaker 13: forty two percent of the casualties during the first weeks

898
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 13: and months of the conflict where in area that had

899
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:58,760
Speaker 13: been identified as safe.

900
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 9: This is very is very dangerous.

901
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 13: It's an indication of how little precutions were taken. So

902
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,840
Speaker 13: the principle of distinctions between civilians and military and the

903
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 13: principle of precutions were completed.

904
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 2: One question I had for you was given that the

905
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 2: US and Israel, the two primary I guess the participants

906
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 2: on this side of the war, are not party to

907
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 2: the ICC. Why do you believe that it was important

908
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 2: to bring this case forward for your own participation if

909
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,720
Speaker 2: there isn't going to be any immediate enforcement on behalf

910
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: of those two governments.

911
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 9: Well, there is.

912
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 13: A jurisdiction of the ICC over war happened in the

913
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 13: Occupied Palestine and territory.

914
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,320
Speaker 9: This is under the jurisdiction of the board.

915
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 13: And these suppolls squarely in also the interest of Israel,

916
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 13: because Israel is the occupying power in the in Jaza Strip,

917
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 13: the West Bank and the Jerusalem.

918
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:02,720
Speaker 9: So despite the fact that Israel's.

919
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 13: Not a member, is not a party to the Roman Statude,

920
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 13: it's directly affected by it.

921
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 1: Francesca, I wonder if you could talk a little bit

922
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: about the current humanitarian situation on the ground. There have

923
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: been reports israel Is claiming that they've increased the amount

924
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,839
Speaker 1: of aid that is going into the Gaza Strip. On

925
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 1: the other hand, you have Cindy McCain, the head of

926
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 1: the UN World Food program saying that northern Gaza is

927
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 1: in full blown famine and that is rapidly creeping south.

928
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 1: What can you say about the current situation whether there

929
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: has in fact been an increase in the amount of

930
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 1: aid getting into Gaza, that.

931
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 13: Any increase is in the margins. Again, that the situation

932
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 13: in the Gaza Strip is beyond despair. This is the

933
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 13: reality and I keep them saying it Israel disputes the

934
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 13: figures that are provided by the United Nations. Well, why

935
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 13: doesn't Israel allow independent.

936
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 9: Monitors to enter the Gazza strips?

937
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 13: Why Israel doesn't allow journalists to enter because of strips?

938
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 9: This is the only conflict, if you want to pull

939
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 9: it like.

940
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 13: That, that has no foreign correspondence, And it's astonishing.

941
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 9: The reality is dramatic.

942
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 13: What I hear not only from the United Nations to

943
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 13: human dire operators on the ground, but also from many survivors.

944
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 13: It's catastrophic and I've seen it with my own eyes.

945
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,280
Speaker 13: VI's in hospitals in the region where there are especially

946
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:32,879
Speaker 13: those who have been evacuated from Gaza in the last

947
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 13: two weeks and months.

948
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 9: They are severely malnourished, especially the children.

949
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 13: So there is no question that famine has hit parts

950
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 13: of Gaza heavily.

951
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 9: And the north, whatever is above.

952
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 13: The White Gaza has been almost off limits to the

953
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 13: entry obeyed. Whatever that has entered from the south has

954
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 13: been in heavily contingent and so very very limited. But

955
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 13: also it's impossible to deliver aid. This is something that

956
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 13: ANA has announced over and over. I mentioned Ana because

957
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 13: this is the agency which has the largest capacity to

958
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 13: deliver aid in the in the Gaza Strip, and that's

959
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 13: been humpered by the bombing, the continuous bombing which has

960
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 13: never stopped, the huge destruction to infrastructure, including roads, and

961
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 13: the danger that is sense. So especially now with the

962
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,840
Speaker 13: control that in Israel maintains over the Rapha crossing.

963
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,359
Speaker 9: The United Nations are already saying.

964
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 13: That there is absolutely not enough aid that enters the

965
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 13: You know, there have been at tents to deliver food

966
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 13: from from the sea and from air. But I find

967
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 13: it even a bit cynical, if you allow me to

968
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 13: say so, because it does not say that's not been

969
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 13: delivered according to humanitarian standards, to the no armed principle,

970
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 13: and so it has been off as are the d

971
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 13: and even even dangerous, even lethal in a number of

972
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 13: cases because the air drop US peoples Francesca.

973
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: As you know, the International Court of Justice is currently

974
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 1: considering a courtesy of a case brought by South Africa,

975
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: whether Israel is committing genocide violating those conventions in the

976
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 1: Gaza Strip. They issued a preliminary finding that was widely

977
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 1: reported and understood to be that they found it the

978
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,919
Speaker 1: case to be at least applausible. However, Joan Donahue, who

979
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 1: just retired as president of the ICJ, recently spoke with

980
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 1: the BBC and indicated this was not the correct way

981
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,479
Speaker 1: to think about this initial finding. Let's take a listen

982
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 1: to what she had to say, and then I want

983
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: to get your reaction and break down on the other side.

984
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 14: I'm glad I have a chance to address that because

985
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 14: the court test for deciding whether to impose measures uses

986
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 14: the idea of plausibility. But the test is the plausibility

987
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 14: of the rights that are asserted by the applicant, in

988
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:58,360
Speaker 14: this case South Africa. So the court decided that the

989
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 14: Palestinians had a place pausible right to be protected from

990
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 14: genocide and that South Africa had the right to present

991
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 14: that claim in the court. It then looked at the

992
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 14: facts as well, but it did not decide and this

993
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 14: is something where I'm correcting what's often said in the media.

994
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 14: It didn't decide that the claim of genocide was plausible.

995
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 14: It did emphasize in the order that there was a

996
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 14: risk of irreparable harm to the Palestinian right to be

997
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 14: protected from genocide. But the shorthand that often appears, which

998
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 14: is that there's a plausible case of genocide, isn't what

999
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 14: the court decided.

1000
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 1: Francesca, if you could help us understand what the Court

1001
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,959
Speaker 1: did and did not decide in terms of this ICJ

1002
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 1: potential genocide case.

1003
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 13: Yes, I think the first all we need to understand

1004
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:51,359
Speaker 13: that if there was no case to be heard over

1005
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 13: alleged to genocide and Gaza, the case would have been

1006
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 13: stopped in its trucks, just as Israel requested.

1007
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 9: Instead, the ICJ issued a preliminary of.

1008
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 13: Preliminary measures on the twenty sixth of January and another

1009
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 13: on the twenty eighth of March, and does not bring

1010
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 13: either the South Africa versus Israel, not the Nicaraguabus Germany.

1011
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 9: Cases that are still pending now.

1012
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 13: The twenty sixth of January orders said there is a

1013
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 13: risk of irreparable harm to the Palestinian right to be

1014
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 13: protected from genocide. There risk can only exist if someone

1015
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 13: exclusively threatening that right.

1016
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 9: So it seems to me that there.

1017
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:35,879
Speaker 13: Is a confusion over semantics. So the possible right at

1018
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 13: risk is the right and not to be genocided.

1019
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:43,240
Speaker 2: So a bigger and more philosophical question. In your report,

1020
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 2: you wrote about the anatomy of a genocide. Could you

1021
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 2: define for us what genocide means I guess under international

1022
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,840
Speaker 2: law and by the United Nations, and then give us

1023
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 2: some historical examples other than the Holocaust of what we

1024
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,919
Speaker 2: should look to so that people can wrap their heads around.

1025
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 13: I'm glad you asked me this question, Slagara, because especially

1026
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 13: in the Western world, I find that there is a

1027
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 13: huge confusion over what genocide means, and there is of

1028
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 13: court and it should be so. I mean, the Holocaust

1029
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:17,759
Speaker 13: should remain great in our memory, especially I speak as

1030
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 13: a European, and the Holocaust should never be forgotten, and

1031
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 13: what led.

1032
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 9: To the Holocausts should not be forgotten.

1033
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 13: At the same time, what constitute genocides is not established

1034
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:36,839
Speaker 13: by necessarily by by presidents or personal opinion or personal experiences,

1035
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:40,359
Speaker 13: painful as they are. What constitutes GENOCIDEY is established by

1036
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 13: Article two of the nineteen forty eight Convention on the

1037
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 13: Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, and genocide

1038
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 13: is defined as a set of acts committed with intent

1039
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:52,840
Speaker 13: to destroy.

1040
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 9: National, racial, ethnic, or.

1041
00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 13: Religious group in a whole or in power art as such,

1042
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 13: and it includes a series of acts like killing members

1043
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 13: of the group, infliction of severe bodily or mental harm

1044
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 13: to members of the group, or the creation of conditions

1045
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 13: of life that would lead to the destruction of the group.

1046
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 9: To mention the three cases that I found relevant.

1047
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:19,319
Speaker 13: In the case of side, of course, the treasury is

1048
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 13: very high because one is to prove not only the

1049
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 13: intent to commit to those crimes, but also the intent

1050
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 13: to come to destroy the people in all or in part,

1051
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 13: the protected group in all or in part through these acts,

1052
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:38,399
Speaker 13: So the specific intent to commit genocide.

1053
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 9: The other example of history, we say history is replenished

1054
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:44,439
Speaker 9: of store.

1055
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 13: Incidents and the cases of genocide. The very history of

1056
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 13: colonialism is replenished of genocide or ideology and practices. And

1057
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 13: this is something that we understand very well if we

1058
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 13: read the important literature that hasn't been left, including by

1059
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 13: Raphi Lenkin, the scholar who coined who gave the world

1060
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 13: genocide Francisca.

1061
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 1: Why would a finding of genocide matter from the ICJ, Because,

1062
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 1: as has been reported and has always discussed when this

1063
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:25,640
Speaker 1: case is discussed, the ICJ doesn't really have enforcement powers,

1064
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 1: So what does it even matter what they do? What

1065
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 1: does it even matter if this term actually comes to

1066
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 1: be applied to Israel's actions with regard to the Pacadian people,

1067
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: specifically in the Gaza strip. What's your response to that

1068
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 1: on the potential impact of this case.

1069
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 13: Crystal, Your question is very important because while the ICJ

1070
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 13: determination in conclusions is critical to establish state responsibility over

1071
00:54:55,280 --> 00:55:00,840
Speaker 13: the crime of genocide, the Genocide Convention refers to the

1072
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 13: need to end the obligation to prevent genocide. I would

1073
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:09,760
Speaker 13: like to say that the ICJ conclusions and measures, including

1074
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 13: provisional measures, are binding. So while the direct enforcement relies

1075
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 13: upon states, it's very important that the compass is established

1076
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 13: to buy the ICJ. Similarly important is the finding the

1077
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 13: investigation and the conclusions of national courts and the ICIC

1078
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:34,760
Speaker 13: who then have the responsibility to identify individual criminal liability.

1079
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:37,799
Speaker 9: But again, the obligation to.

1080
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 13: Prevent genocide is triggered by the risk that genocide is

1081
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 13: being committed, and for me, that moment was reached on

1082
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 13: the twenty six of January, when the Court is concluded

1083
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,760
Speaker 13: that there is a plausibility of risk for the rights

1084
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:55,319
Speaker 13: protected under the Genocide Convention for the.

1085
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:58,279
Speaker 9: Palestinians in Gaza. Why is it important.

1086
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 13: It's important because in these instruments are and these mechanisms

1087
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 13: are the one leading to justice. But for me, the

1088
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 13: very existence of a convention which has in itself the

1089
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,240
Speaker 13: obligation which is ERGA governments, applies to all member states,

1090
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 13: including those who are not party to the Genocide Convention,

1091
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:23,279
Speaker 13: to prevent genocide. Giving the gravity of this crime is necessary.

1092
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 13: I mean, we cannot wait for the for the determination

1093
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 13: of the Court to prevent genocide, otherwise the genocide mind

1094
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 13: be committed.

1095
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 2: My question is, so the defense here in the United

1096
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 2: States by the Israelis is that mass civilian death is

1097
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 2: frankly just. I guess part and parcel as they would

1098
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 2: put it, of an urban military campaign. The Israeli defenders

1099
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 2: have been pointing to US and Iraqi military actions.

1100
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:51,800
Speaker 3: In the city of Mosul.

1101
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:55,800
Speaker 2: There have been previous comparisons to the number of civilian

1102
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 2: casualties who are incurred in the Second World War. How

1103
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 2: do you think about the difference between those two or

1104
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 2: three examples. What level of civilian casualty is accepted? How

1105
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 2: do you parse intent? Whenever you are writing your report

1106
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 2: and you're thinking, as you said, through the genocide conventions.

1107
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 13: I think that is the arguments that have been offered

1108
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 13: and that you voted for me are a way to

1109
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 13: divert the attention from what is happening on the ground

1110
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 13: and the need to have scrutiny.

1111
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 9: Over Israel's practices.

1112
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:32,560
Speaker 13: This is not a case like any other, because Israel

1113
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 13: is the occupying power in the Gaza Strip and so

1114
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 13: should take the utmost precautions in ensuring that the occupied

1115
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 13: population is protected and is spared from the previous impact

1116
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 13: of any conflict. Now, and this is not the first

1117
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 13: conflict that has occurred in Gaza. This is the sixth,

1118
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 13: of course, the most the most valid. Again, I go

1119
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 13: back to the point that I said in the beginning

1120
00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 13: the action that Israelist can have been indiscriminated and have

1121
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 13: targeted civilians, there is.

1122
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 9: No question about that.

1123
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 13: But this is something that I reflect from the very

1124
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 13: first days of the revengeful military operation against the Gaza Strip,

1125
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 13: because the very idea of targeting Hamas, going after Hamas

1126
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 13: considering anyone as a terrorist was very dangerous, was very blurred.

1127
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 13: Where is the distinction between the civilians and the combatants.

1128
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 13: We know that who can be targeted under international uanitary

1129
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 13: law are active combatants.

1130
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 9: So even a soldier, including Israeli soldiers.

1131
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 13: Cannot be targeted unless they are inactive combat and if

1132
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 13: they have surrendered, they need to be respected. They can

1133
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 13: be taken prisoners, but they cannot be executed.

1134
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 9: So there is a.

1135
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,919
Speaker 13: Respect for the right to life in international humanitary laws

1136
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:49,720
Speaker 13: in situational conflict, which is minimum, it's not absolute. And

1137
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 13: at the same time, this is the minimum threshold not

1138
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 13: to fall into complete brutality, cruelty and lack of humanity.

1139
00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:00,760
Speaker 13: So what has happened in Gaza is again Israel has

1140
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 13: justified inductions like okay, we have killed these many people

1141
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 13: because there were human shields. Where where is the evidence

1142
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 13: we know from the investigations that israelis in themselves. Israeli

1143
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 13: jornan Is carried out that artificial intelligence has been deployed

1144
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:19,320
Speaker 13: up to the point that in order to target one

1145
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 13: hamas fighter or combatant and a risk up to one

1146
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 13: hundred people has been calculated. So there are being instances

1147
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 13: and documented distances like in Jovali, a camp where one

1148
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:35,840
Speaker 13: of one hundred people were killed and one hundred people

1149
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 13: were injured just because there was one military.

1150
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 9: Combatant allegedly there. We don't know if in active combat

1151
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:45,080
Speaker 9: or not was was present.

1152
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 13: Again, in the these are not precautions and it is

1153
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 13: not respectable princible distinction. So even if even if there

1154
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 13: was a legitimate reason to start the war against the

1155
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 13: Kaza strip, the weight it has been sorry, the way

1156
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 13: it has been conducted is absolutely against any basic principle

1157
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 13: of international law.

1158
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 1: We also have a lot of statements from senior Israeli officials,

1159
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 1: some of which you document in your report, some of

1160
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 1: which are documented in the South African case at the ICJ,

1161
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 1: that seem to indicate genocidal intent, talking about no one

1162
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 1: involves civilians, describing all everyone in Gaza as animals reference

1163
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:32,560
Speaker 1: to Biblical anlek et cetera. How important are those statements

1164
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 1: from Israeli officials. Now what they would say is, oh,

1165
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 1: this is just heat of the moment, this is populous rhetoric.

1166
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 1: It's not actually being translated into policy. So how significant

1167
01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 1: and consequential do you find those statements to be?

1168
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 12: No?

1169
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 13: Indeed, if we look at the international Jewish prudence, for example,

1170
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:56,720
Speaker 13: stemming from the International Criminal Tribunal for Former Yugoslavia or Ruanda,

1171
01:00:56,840 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 13: we can definitely see that statements of victuals per see

1172
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 13: do not constitute to the hardcore evidence to prove that

1173
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:06,280
Speaker 13: there is general side. In fact, what I claim is

1174
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:10,760
Speaker 13: that on the one hand, there has been a look

1175
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 13: at the legal legal documents that have animated this or

1176
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 13: have led to this military campaign, but also what has

1177
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:21,160
Speaker 13: happened on the ground, because those words that you have,

1178
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 13: those horrible words that you have mentioned in the beginning,

1179
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 13: have resonated, have reverberated, have been internalized and acted upon

1180
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:30,960
Speaker 13: by soldiers on the ground.

1181
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 9: I mean, it's been really, really.

1182
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 13: Soul consuming heartbreaking to see the self incriminatory videos that

1183
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:44,640
Speaker 13: Israeli soldiers themselves have posted on social media and see

1184
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:48,640
Speaker 13: significant number of whom I verified, including the technical experts,

1185
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:53,120
Speaker 13: where they claim to have his entire neighborhoods as a

1186
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 13: revenge against the ded animals who carried out the seventh

1187
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:00,720
Speaker 13: of October attack, and they have often and quoted this

1188
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:04,480
Speaker 13: language the camelekt. They have talked of the full destruction

1189
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 13: of Gaza, and soldiers have repeated we came here to destroy,

1190
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:13,360
Speaker 13: to occupy, and to.

1191
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 9: And to settle.

1192
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:17,360
Speaker 13: And this is something that again as they could, so

1193
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:21,200
Speaker 13: powerful across the infantry that has been deployed on the

1194
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 13: ground that it is really scary m hm.

1195
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:26,520
Speaker 3: One of the reasons that I.

1196
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:29,560
Speaker 13: Think, let me say, let me just I think it's

1197
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 13: important to implement what I said in the beginning. So

1198
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:35,680
Speaker 13: in order to determine whether there is genocide, we need

1199
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:37,160
Speaker 13: to find the intent.

1200
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:40,360
Speaker 9: And intent cannot be determined only.

1201
01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 13: On the words and the ordal statements of policy makers,

1202
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 13: but can be can be inferred. And again, when there

1203
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:51,600
Speaker 13: is such a nature, scale and patterns of conducts that

1204
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:54,920
Speaker 13: speak to the same intent, and there is a reality

1205
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 13: and the capacity to carry out genocide, well this is

1206
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:02,880
Speaker 13: where the intent to become puspicious and facious.

1207
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:05,760
Speaker 2: One of the reasons that we reached out to you

1208
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 2: originally was a response from the US State Department where

1209
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 2: they appeared to imply that you were anti Semitic. So

1210
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 2: we have some of the comments here from the State

1211
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:16,960
Speaker 2: Department spoke for sin Matt Miller, and we'll get your reaction.

1212
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:17,800
Speaker 3: Let's take a listen.

1213
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 11: We have long, for long standing, for a long standing

1214
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:26,080
Speaker 11: period of time, opposed the mandate of this special Rapporteur,

1215
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 11: which we believe is not productive. And when it comes

1216
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:33,760
Speaker 11: to the individual who holds that position, I can't help

1217
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 11: but note history of anti Submitic comments that she has

1218
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:38,400
Speaker 11: made that have.

1219
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 8: Been and made anti Semitic comments she has.

1220
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 11: And comments she made in December that appeared to adju

1221
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:47,920
Speaker 11: justify the attacks of October seventh, So I think it's

1222
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:51,480
Speaker 11: important to take that into account. But with respect to

1223
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 11: the report itself, we have made clear that we believe

1224
01:03:56,040 --> 01:03:58,080
Speaker 11: that allegations of genocide are unfounded.

1225
01:03:58,200 --> 01:03:59,800
Speaker 3: So we wanted to give you a chance to respond

1226
01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:00,080
Speaker 3: to that.

1227
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 13: Okay, First of all, the US has never considered this

1228
01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 13: as always contested, like Israel, the value of this mandate,

1229
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:14,560
Speaker 13: and this is something that precedes me and as little

1230
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:17,440
Speaker 13: to do with my persona, while the comments of the

1231
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:20,640
Speaker 13: spoken person had to do very much with my persona.

1232
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:24,120
Speaker 13: And I was appolled when I heard that a senior

1233
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:28,919
Speaker 13: US suficial could spread these lies, because there are lies.

1234
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:32,880
Speaker 9: First of all, I've never ever justified. It's appalling.

1235
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 13: I've never justified the seventh of October attacks.

1236
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:36,320
Speaker 9: I've said that.

1237
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:39,880
Speaker 13: These acts were brutal, were criminal, and I have said

1238
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:42,400
Speaker 13: that there should be an a There is an absolute

1239
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:46,160
Speaker 13: need to have investigation and prosecution of those crimes. I've

1240
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 13: said also, we need to understand where this hatred comes from.

1241
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:53,360
Speaker 13: What I have rejected is the qualification of those acts

1242
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:56,479
Speaker 13: as motivated by antisemitism, because, first of all, there.

1243
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:57,240
Speaker 9: Is no evidence of it.

1244
01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:00,320
Speaker 13: The second second thing is that there are is really

1245
01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:04,240
Speaker 13: scholars themselves who say that it's very responsible to put

1246
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 13: the burden of what has happened on alleged antisemitism of

1247
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:15,000
Speaker 13: Palestinians because the responsal realizis Israel, and they put textualizes

1248
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 13: the horror that as the second place in occupied Palestinian terrory,

1249
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 13: territory for fifty six years, which might might have fed

1250
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:24,480
Speaker 13: the hatred.

1251
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:29,000
Speaker 9: So again I pushed back on this allegation. The allegation

1252
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:30,840
Speaker 9: of antisemitism is.

1253
01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 13: Repulsive, as disgusting for me is antisemitis. As a human

1254
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:42,840
Speaker 13: rights lawyer, I'm engaged against antisemitism, against anti ISLAMO sorry,

1255
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:48,360
Speaker 13: against Islamophobia, Arabophobia, any form of discriminations, including anti Palestinian racism.

1256
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 13: And what I really very much reject is that the

1257
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 13: allegation of antisemitism is used more and more to distract

1258
01:05:56,440 --> 01:06:00,600
Speaker 13: from Israel's responsibility, which is something that also not only

1259
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 13: betrays what antisemitism is, but creates new dangers for the

1260
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:08,400
Speaker 13: Jewish people wherever they are. We need to distinguish what

1261
01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:12,919
Speaker 13: is Judaism and what is Israel's conducts. And I've always said,

1262
01:06:13,040 --> 01:06:16,200
Speaker 13: and I'm on record, I've always said any Jewish person

1263
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:20,480
Speaker 13: is allowed to have all the feelings and love for

1264
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:25,320
Speaker 13: Israel they want. What I stand against is the unconsctionable

1265
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:33,240
Speaker 13: stance of governments in sheltering Israel accountability and which protracts

1266
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:34,240
Speaker 13: its impunity.

1267
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:37,080
Speaker 1: Well, Frantasca, I guess you can take comfort in the

1268
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:40,040
Speaker 1: fact that you're far from alone and being labeled as

1269
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:42,720
Speaker 1: anti Semitic for her views with regard to what Israel's

1270
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:44,600
Speaker 1: during the Gaza strip. I'm sure you're familiar with the

1271
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:47,040
Speaker 1: discourse here, including from the President of the United States,

1272
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:51,640
Speaker 1: about the campus protesters that have You know, these protests

1273
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:54,160
Speaker 1: have really taken off across the country, students who are

1274
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:57,640
Speaker 1: calling for a ceasefire, calling for the US and their

1275
01:06:57,680 --> 01:07:01,200
Speaker 1: support for what they see, as you do, as a genocide.

1276
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:03,560
Speaker 1: I wanted to get your reaction to Speaker of the

1277
01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:08,240
Speaker 1: House Mike Johnson made some very noteworthy comments on Holocaust

1278
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:12,720
Speaker 1: Remembrance Day about these protests and the character of these protests.

1279
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:15,200
Speaker 15: Let's take a listen to that the very campuses which

1280
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:19,480
Speaker 15: were once the envy of the International Academy have succumbed

1281
01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 15: to an anti Semitic virus. Students who were known for

1282
01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:27,040
Speaker 15: producing academic papers are now known for stabbing their Jewish

1283
01:07:27,080 --> 01:07:30,600
Speaker 15: peers in the eyes with Palestinian flags and with our

1284
01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:36,520
Speaker 15: survivors before us. If you close your eyes and the

1285
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:40,440
Speaker 15: quietness of your own heart, you can almost hear the

1286
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 15: glass of Jewish storefronts shattered by stormtroopers. You could see

1287
01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:49,720
Speaker 15: fathers being executed at point blank in the ghettos. You

1288
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:52,120
Speaker 15: can feel a brother's hand slipping out of his sisters

1289
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 15: as men in uniforms separate them into lines and they

1290
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:58,720
Speaker 15: can only mouth to one another. Everything will be okay,

1291
01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:00,360
Speaker 15: hoping that would be.

1292
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:03,880
Speaker 4: So, Francesca. At first, just to correct the record, there.

1293
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:07,160
Speaker 1: Are no documented incidents of anyone being stabbed with the

1294
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:10,080
Speaker 1: eye by a flag or any other thing. Just wanted

1295
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:12,400
Speaker 1: to put that out there. But here you see the

1296
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:17,559
Speaker 1: speaker of the house labeling American students, equating them to Nazis,

1297
01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:21,880
Speaker 1: very much echoing the rhetoric of Israeli President Benjamin Niaho.

1298
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:25,840
Speaker 1: This has been used to justify quite an extensive crackdown

1299
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:29,599
Speaker 1: and criminalization of these protests. I wonder what your reaction

1300
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:32,320
Speaker 1: as an international human rights lawyer is both to this

1301
01:08:32,479 --> 01:08:36,000
Speaker 1: language but also to the response to these campus protests.

1302
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:38,479
Speaker 10: Well, let me.

1303
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:39,599
Speaker 9: React on the remarks.

1304
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 13: First, I find Speaker Johnson's remarks both in felicitous and

1305
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:47,920
Speaker 13: in natury the comparative evolutions of college campus protests against

1306
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:50,519
Speaker 13: c CRU's conducting Gaza because the people we are talking

1307
01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:57,400
Speaker 13: about to antisemitism, to the heinous of revolting antisemitism that

1308
01:08:57,640 --> 01:09:02,160
Speaker 13: led to the Hall of Us is not only historically inappropriate,

1309
01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:05,920
Speaker 13: but also functions to divert the attention from the subsubti

1310
01:09:05,960 --> 01:09:09,439
Speaker 13: issues at hand, namely the growing body of evidence regarding

1311
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:12,920
Speaker 13: the atrospity grinds committed in Gaza that clearly this young

1312
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:16,759
Speaker 13: generation globally across the world cannot stomach anymore.

1313
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:18,320
Speaker 9: I also found that this is.

1314
01:09:18,360 --> 01:09:23,120
Speaker 13: A rhetorical tactic exploiting the memory of the Holocos, instrumentalizing

1315
01:09:23,200 --> 01:09:28,240
Speaker 13: one of the history greatest atrocities for contemporary purposes is

1316
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:32,040
Speaker 13: unacceptable because it undermines the gravity and uniqueness of the

1317
01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 13: Holocaust while simultanently obscuring the pressing concerns in the occupied

1318
01:09:37,400 --> 01:09:39,920
Speaker 13: palacy and territory. And I believe that as we aim

1319
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:45,080
Speaker 13: to foster a constructive and respective, respectful discourse, it is

1320
01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:48,760
Speaker 13: crucial that historical comparisons are made with careful considerations of

1321
01:09:48,840 --> 01:09:52,200
Speaker 13: their accuracy and their implications, and going to the protests

1322
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:57,560
Speaker 13: in US campuses, I can tell as a European this

1323
01:09:57,760 --> 01:10:00,880
Speaker 13: is spreading across the world anyone including I mean, I

1324
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:04,640
Speaker 13: live in an Arab country, and everyone is looking at

1325
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:08,439
Speaker 13: these young people as the most courageous and I do

1326
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:10,479
Speaker 13: share the team, so I keep.

1327
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:13,680
Speaker 9: On saying I hope that they stay peaceful and.

1328
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:20,320
Speaker 13: Respectful and ixtalate any element that my represent a threat

1329
01:10:20,840 --> 01:10:23,640
Speaker 13: to anyone in the university. But I also want to

1330
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:26,679
Speaker 13: say that there are many Jewish students among them. And again,

1331
01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:28,519
Speaker 13: and this is what gives me hope that the new

1332
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:31,960
Speaker 13: generation doesn't buy anymore what has been.

1333
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:38,640
Speaker 9: The narratives are sold by leadership and nowadays.

1334
01:10:40,400 --> 01:10:43,120
Speaker 1: Francesca Albany, is you on special rappator. Thank you so

1335
01:10:43,200 --> 01:10:44,880
Speaker 1: much for taking some time with us this morning. We're

1336
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:46,400
Speaker 1: extremely grateful and now you're very busy.

1337
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:50,920
Speaker 2: Thanks for your time. Thank you, Thank you guys so

1338
01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:53,400
Speaker 2: much for watching. We really appreciate it for supporting us.

1339
01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:55,280
Speaker 2: Make sure you go and sign up breakingpoints dot com.

1340
01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:59,000
Speaker 2: You can get early access to the Counterpoints debates and

1341
01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:01,280
Speaker 2: support some of the work there and help US interview

1342
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:03,360
Speaker 2: you an officials. That's the first one for me, so

1343
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:05,400
Speaker 2: thank you all very much. Otherwise, we'll see you all

1344
01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:05,880
Speaker 2: next week.