WEBVTT - CZM Rewind: Myanmar: Printing the Revolution. Part 4

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<v Speaker 1>Hello everyone, It's me James, and if you're hearing this,

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<v Speaker 1>it's because I am on holiday along with all my colleagues.

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<v Speaker 1>But in order to help you as you wander lonely

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<v Speaker 1>as a cloud through the contentless abyss of our one

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<v Speaker 1>week of holiday, we are re releasing some episodes of

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<v Speaker 1>the show that we like and that you may also like.

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<v Speaker 1>Avid listeners would have probably listened to them before, but

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<v Speaker 1>I picked one from a little while ago, March of

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty two, so it's when you can revisit and

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<v Speaker 1>hopefully enjoy. It's the culmination of our first series on Myanmar,

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<v Speaker 1>called Printing the Revolution, and I like this one because

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<v Speaker 1>it was the first thing I did for it could

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<v Speaker 1>happen here. And I was really happy to have a

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<v Speaker 1>home for this story because I've been pitching it for

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<v Speaker 1>months and just getting a fuck all response from editors

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<v Speaker 1>because they have no reason to care about me andmar

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<v Speaker 1>because there's no money in it for global capital, and

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<v Speaker 1>therefore it seems like people in the US don't care

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<v Speaker 1>to include or your non left its publications, and so

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<v Speaker 1>I was really happy to have a home for this story.

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<v Speaker 1>And obviously it's not one with a particularly happy ending.

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<v Speaker 1>I won't spoil it, I guess, but yes, it's rough

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<v Speaker 1>one and that is something that like I still think

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<v Speaker 1>about and it still upsets me. And it's also I think,

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<v Speaker 1>a perspective on the reality of conflict coverage. It doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>get shard enough. I think for twenty years this country

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<v Speaker 1>has been at war, and the media has for a

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<v Speaker 1>large part participated in the sort of propaganda that makes

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<v Speaker 1>conflict seem other than what is, which is the worst

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<v Speaker 1>thing that humans do to each other, and it did.

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<v Speaker 1>Good guys don't always win, and sometimes the good guys die,

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<v Speaker 1>and whilst that's something that I wish didn't happen, it does.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm happy that we were able to in that moment,

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<v Speaker 1>which was a very sad moment, difficult moment for both

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<v Speaker 1>Robert myself, especially myself. I think I just think quite

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<v Speaker 1>a long time before I met Robert talking to Zora

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<v Speaker 1>and working on this story, and we were able to

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<v Speaker 1>share that with you and share the realities of like

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<v Speaker 1>we're not kind of unfeeling automaton side that like this

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<v Speaker 1>this shit is difficult for us and it affects us,

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<v Speaker 1>and I know a lot of people felt that affected

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<v Speaker 1>them as well. And this episode stuck a cold with

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of people. So yeah, I hope that you

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<v Speaker 1>enjoy it. I'm Robert Evans and this is part four

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<v Speaker 1>of me and mar printing the revolution.

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<v Speaker 2>And then once we got there we could in rest,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, rain, sun whatever. Women as well, we were

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<v Speaker 2>all like try it when they came when we were leaving,

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<v Speaker 2>they were all like, very fair skin and beautiful. And

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<v Speaker 2>then we went in and then everyone got tanned. In

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<v Speaker 2>the jungle, we're training all the time, you know, people

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<v Speaker 2>in training camp.

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<v Speaker 3>We were driven apart.

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<v Speaker 2>And the reason that we were all doing this is

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<v Speaker 2>because from an online coup as students and how much

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<v Speaker 2>he has terrorized the public and the people.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's why were we.

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<v Speaker 2>Have this morale and the ability to get through the

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<v Speaker 2>trading and be able to wield weapons.

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<v Speaker 1>Zora and his friends went into the junglist students, programmers

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<v Speaker 1>and kids. Now they're fighters. They were tech savvy young people,

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<v Speaker 1>he says, they grew up online and that generational divide

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<v Speaker 1>which the Internet brought here came much later in Miamar.

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<v Speaker 1>It wasn't until twenty eleven that people really gained access

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<v Speaker 1>to the internet and with it the new ideas and

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<v Speaker 1>identities that it brought. Soul's generation are among the first

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<v Speaker 1>to embrace global connectivity, and now after having it taken away,

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<v Speaker 1>they're refusing to give it up.

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<v Speaker 2>The start of the coup in February, the military, well,

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<v Speaker 2>gen Z was organizing online, social media and all that,

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<v Speaker 2>and they were kind of I think this is from

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<v Speaker 2>my experience kind of organizing around like gen Z is

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<v Speaker 2>going to be different than the Ada generation because we

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<v Speaker 2>have the Internet, and also we know more about the

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<v Speaker 2>world and can come communicate.

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<v Speaker 3>To the rest of the world.

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<v Speaker 2>I think one thing that was being was that in

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand and eight, it just took one video leaking

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<v Speaker 2>out of the country for there to be big international repercussions.

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<v Speaker 1>It's worth noting that when people in Burma talk about

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<v Speaker 1>the Internet, they mean Facebook. Phones come with the Facebook

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<v Speaker 1>app installed and it's sometimes exempt from data charges. For

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<v Speaker 1>many people in Burma, using the internet means using Facebook.

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<v Speaker 1>Zora and his friends are different from their parents in

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<v Speaker 1>many ways, not at least in their perceptions of authority.

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<v Speaker 1>This has led to a situation where the PDF People's

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<v Speaker 1>defense force units are much less hierarchical than units of

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<v Speaker 1>the Tamador.

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<v Speaker 2>So when we make decisions in our group. There's no

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<v Speaker 2>master in student, there's no teacher student. But you know

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<v Speaker 2>the way that it works, there are people who are good,

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<v Speaker 2>they're older, people who are more trained, and then there

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<v Speaker 2>are new recruits, new people who just came in. So

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<v Speaker 2>of course the people who are there for longer and

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<v Speaker 2>know more about the situation have more voice and when

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<v Speaker 2>we discuss so especially people who were there.

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<v Speaker 3>When we founded this group.

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<v Speaker 2>There were only really eight people from when we grouped,

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<v Speaker 2>so those eight people kind of discussed on the bigger strategy.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, we don't really vote there. He says he

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<v Speaker 3>wants to do it, he thinks is good.

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<v Speaker 2>We are there's the seven of us we think is good,

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<v Speaker 2>or we support him, or someone says we don't really

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<v Speaker 2>like that idea, then we don't do it.

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<v Speaker 1>They try to achieve more gender quality as well. Those

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<v Speaker 1>are explained that in his unit, the women are not

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<v Speaker 1>always the frontline fighters.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the place there's no discrimination. You know, women can

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<v Speaker 2>women and men were training whoever could come. But like

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<v Speaker 2>on the battlefield, people, we don't use women that much

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<v Speaker 2>on the battlefield. That's one thing that we do know

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<v Speaker 2>is that it's not it's not really discrimination. But if

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<v Speaker 2>women are with us together, we have confusion about whether

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<v Speaker 2>we need to protect them or we're just fighting with

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<v Speaker 2>with them, or they're fighting in front of us. And

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<v Speaker 2>that there's one thing that is very different is that

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<v Speaker 2>in terms of mentality, we can't. We never take the

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<v Speaker 2>women out really far into very dangerous fights. So often

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<v Speaker 2>they're in the back as backup or supplies or things

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<v Speaker 2>like that. But as you know, the military government, the

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<v Speaker 2>military terrorists are very very they're very unethical. They don't

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<v Speaker 2>follow the rules, so you know they're going to shoot

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<v Speaker 2>whoever they see. So even if they're hanging back and

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<v Speaker 2>they're sending medical supplies, they can still get hit.

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<v Speaker 1>For Zora in particular, there's a lot at stake. After

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<v Speaker 1>almost an hour and a half of talking, I asked

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<v Speaker 1>about his parents. I'd heard of retribution attacks against families

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<v Speaker 1>of fighters and wondered if he was worried about that.

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<v Speaker 2>So mom and dad are both they support me fighting

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<v Speaker 2>them against the military.

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<v Speaker 3>They're very happy. His dad really wants to.

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<v Speaker 2>Do CDM, but he can't run away because the military

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<v Speaker 2>has taken his mother and his sisters. He still has

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<v Speaker 2>five sisters, they're all still in that military command the work.

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<v Speaker 2>They're in the military school schools, so it's very hard

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<v Speaker 2>for them to run away rightact.

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<v Speaker 3>So he really wants to leave the military, but he can't.

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<v Speaker 2>Though, while so that the fact that I am there

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<v Speaker 2>trying to fight against the military, see is very happy,

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<v Speaker 2>but he tells me to be careful about my own life.

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<v Speaker 2>They're supportive and they really want to come fight themselves,

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<v Speaker 2>but they can't because of my sisters and my mother.

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<v Speaker 2>So him seeing that I can do it, it's really

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<v Speaker 2>wonderful for them. So his father, his other brother and

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<v Speaker 2>other people, three of them below him. They've all usually

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<v Speaker 2>just lived together with his grandfather and stuff in the

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<v Speaker 2>military Trump Pounds or near the military. So he really

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<v Speaker 2>wants to call all the people that are still there,

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<v Speaker 2>but they can't leave.

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<v Speaker 1>This is what civil wood does. Traps us in a

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<v Speaker 1>situation where we can't make the right choice even when

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<v Speaker 1>we know what it is, and in many situations it's

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<v Speaker 1>pretty hard to discern right from wrong. In the midst

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<v Speaker 1>of so much violence, Seel has been able to fight,

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<v Speaker 1>but his dad is stuck fighting against people like his

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<v Speaker 1>son in order to protect his daughters. Thousands of families

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<v Speaker 1>across the country divided in the same way by circumstance

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<v Speaker 1>or ideology. The military is something of a separate society.

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<v Speaker 1>It has its own schools and its own culture. But

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<v Speaker 1>ethnic armed organizations have not been close to urban populations either,

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<v Speaker 1>and so whole new identities have been forged by Generation

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<v Speaker 1>z while their families often struggle to abandon all certainties.

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<v Speaker 4>As we record this, Zaw is still fighting, his girlfriend

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<v Speaker 4>is still healing. Every few weeks a video of him

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<v Speaker 4>and his friends pops up on Reddit or Facebook. They

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<v Speaker 4>have optics on their rifles now and are taking long

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<v Speaker 4>range shots at the top Madar, who rely on iron sights.

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<v Speaker 4>They shoot and reload like soldiers, and they laugh like kids.

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<v Speaker 4>The top Madara still controls the cities, but to move

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<v Speaker 4>between them they have to travel in convoys at breakneck speeds,

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<v Speaker 4>using ambushes, mines and knowledge of the terrain. EAOs and

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<v Speaker 4>the PDF are able to deny the military access to

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<v Speaker 4>large portions of the countryside. Without a serious change in

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<v Speaker 4>the conflict, it might stay like this for years. A

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<v Speaker 4>report published this month detailed the attacks in the Karini

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<v Speaker 4>State by the tout Madaw on churches, residential homes, camps

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<v Speaker 4>for displaced people, which killed sixty one in the months

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<v Speaker 4>since Zau left the city On Christmas Eve. In Upruso's township,

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<v Speaker 4>they killed at least forty civilians. Autopsies show some were

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<v Speaker 4>gagged and burned alive. In recent months, the tot MADA

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<v Speaker 4>has increased its use of air strikes against targets that

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<v Speaker 4>it deems legitimate. Ming An Hlang, the junta's leader, flew

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<v Speaker 4>to Russia twice. In twenty twenty one, he was proclaimed

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<v Speaker 4>an honorary professor of the Military University of the Russian

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<v Speaker 4>Armed Forces. Quote. We are determined to continue our efforts

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<v Speaker 4>to strengthen bilateral ties based on the mutual understanding, respect

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<v Speaker 4>and trust that have been established between US two countries,

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<v Speaker 4>Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said at a meeting with

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<v Speaker 4>the coup leader on June twenty second. We pay special

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<v Speaker 4>attention to this meeting as we see Myanmar as a

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<v Speaker 4>time tested strategic partner and a reliable ally in Southeast

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<v Speaker 4>Asia and the Asia Pacific region.

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<v Speaker 3>He went on.

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<v Speaker 4>Min On Hlang was equally lavish with his praise, saying

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<v Speaker 4>that he saw Russia as a friend forever. Myanmar relies

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<v Speaker 4>heavily on Russian hind Mi I thirty five helicopter gunships,

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<v Speaker 4>transport helicopters Mid twenty nine and SU thirty fighter jets

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<v Speaker 4>and Yak one thirty ground attack aircraft to carry out

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<v Speaker 4>bombing raids and straight civilians. All of these weapons systems

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<v Speaker 4>have been seen more recently in the fighting in Ukraine.

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<v Speaker 4>One prominent Burmese Irish family, the kiah Toongs, has helped

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<v Speaker 4>the junta avoid an international arms embargo using their global

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<v Speaker 4>connections and a network of shady shadow companies. They have

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<v Speaker 4>purchased helicopters under the pretense of using them for tourism

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<v Speaker 4>and the oil and gas industry, and handed them over

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<v Speaker 4>to the Tautmadau. They've also helped shuttle coastal race to Meanmar,

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<v Speaker 4>which the Top Medal used to track Rohinga refugees and

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<v Speaker 4>provide cover for several aircraft purchases. To fund these armed purchases,

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<v Speaker 4>the top Meda has found willing markets for luxury goods abroad.

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<v Speaker 4>According to Justice for Meanmar, since the coup in February

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<v Speaker 4>twenty twenty one, the United States has imported fifteen hundred

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<v Speaker 4>and sixty five metric tons of teak from Myanmar using

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<v Speaker 4>intermediaries to avoid sanctions. In the twenty seventeen twenty eighteen

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<v Speaker 4>financial year, the last year for which data is available,

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<v Speaker 4>the government received one hundred million US dollars in revenue

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<v Speaker 4>from taxes and royalties applied to the timber trade. In

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<v Speaker 4>twenty twenty one, there were more shipments than twenty eighteen,

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<v Speaker 4>offering the top Madal the chance to make enough money

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<v Speaker 4>to continue purchasing weapons to use against their population. The

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<v Speaker 4>conflict in Myanmar remains complicated. It's easy to reduce the

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<v Speaker 4>alphabet soup of revel groups to EAOs and the PDF,

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<v Speaker 4>but these groups and their motivations are diverse. Pierre explained

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<v Speaker 4>to us that even within the Koran there are deep divisions.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, trust, you have to know that historically the Karen

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<v Speaker 5>Rebellion that started in nineteen forty eight, nineteen forty nine,

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<v Speaker 5>so quite a long time ago, was led by Christian

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<v Speaker 5>by the Christian minority, okay of the current people, because

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<v Speaker 5>obviously that was the most Western educated people at the time.

0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:31.439
<v Speaker 5>And so this Elits kind of reproduced itself in the

0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:37.160
<v Speaker 5>New without being the can new is the current National

0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:44.800
<v Speaker 5>Union is a democratic movement, but you know elits tend

0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:50.319
<v Speaker 5>to reproduce themselves. And so most of the leadership, let's say,

0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:54.920
<v Speaker 5>of the current National Union and the current National Liberation

0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:59.280
<v Speaker 5>Army was Christian.

0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:00.559
<v Speaker 3>Like.

0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:11.439
<v Speaker 5>And so the Burmese Junta, the Burmese military government, decided

0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:17.439
<v Speaker 5>to use this to create a wedge between between the

0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:23.360
<v Speaker 5>Karen Christians and the Karen Buddhists uh, and sent monks

0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:29.680
<v Speaker 5>to say, agitate and try to cause this split on

0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:34.840
<v Speaker 5>religious grounds no uh. And they succeeded in parts, and

0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:40.440
<v Speaker 5>succeeded to to separate part of of Karent Buddhists. That

0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:48.520
<v Speaker 5>created the Democratic Karen Buddhist Army d k B, which

0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:53.240
<v Speaker 5>then allied themselves of course, to the to the junta

0:14:54.000 --> 0:15:00.720
<v Speaker 5>and to to attack the to attack the kind the

0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:04.640
<v Speaker 5>Manor Plow which of course they knew all the roads

0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:08.920
<v Speaker 5>there and the defenses and where was the defense is situated,

0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:13.760
<v Speaker 5>et cetera, and succeeded in destroying the capital of the

0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:18.400
<v Speaker 5>Karen National Union in Manorplo in ninety five. So that

0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:23.320
<v Speaker 5>was the situation pretty much when I arrived, it was

0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:32.240
<v Speaker 5>pretty hard like there was not so much territory anymore

0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:36.160
<v Speaker 5>held by the Karen and more importantly, they lost a

0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:39.880
<v Speaker 5>lot of income because a lot of their income come

0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:44.200
<v Speaker 5>from tax at the border that they can control, you know.

0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:48.160
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, that was the situation.

0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:52.480
<v Speaker 4>Not every EEO has embraced the National Unity Government directly,

0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:55.800
<v Speaker 4>after all, many of its members were enthusiastically running cover

0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:58.840
<v Speaker 4>for the Rohinga genocide a few years ago. Many of

0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:02.320
<v Speaker 4>the EAOs remained technically under a ceasefire with the Top MADA,

0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:04.560
<v Speaker 4>and the Top MADA knows that if it pushes too

0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:08.760
<v Speaker 4>far into EAO territory, it risks provoking a full blown response.

0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.360
<v Speaker 4>The EAOs, meanwhile, have been aiding and training the PDF

0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:15.680
<v Speaker 4>and still maintaining enough deniability that the Top MADA has

0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:20.120
<v Speaker 4>not been forced into a confrontation. EAO PDF alliances look

0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:23.280
<v Speaker 4>different in different regions, and often realities on the ground

0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:26.440
<v Speaker 4>bear little relationship to the back door diplomacy and official

0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:28.520
<v Speaker 4>stances embraced by leadership and public.

0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:31.520
<v Speaker 1>The war continues to have a huge toll on civilians.

0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:35.160
<v Speaker 1>According to United Nations, in total, some four hundred and

0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:38.280
<v Speaker 1>forty thousand people have been newly displaced since the coup

0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:41.760
<v Speaker 1>happened in February twenty twenty one, adding to an existing

0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:44.560
<v Speaker 1>three hundred and seventy thousand who had fled their homes

0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:47.800
<v Speaker 1>from earlier waves of violence, and over a million people

0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:51.200
<v Speaker 1>who had fled the Hingia genocide. More than half the

0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:56.720
<v Speaker 1>population of Kreni State has fled. Humanitarian access is hard.

0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:00.440
<v Speaker 1>Much of the relief effort for displaced people occur within

0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:05.240
<v Speaker 1>local communities. Thousands of refugees a camp along the border

0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:10.040
<v Speaker 1>with Thailand, which is defined by rivers. Initially, many people

0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:13.640
<v Speaker 1>fled into Thailand, but terrible conditions in refugee camps led

0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:16.320
<v Speaker 1>some of them to return to Me and Ma. Now

0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:19.960
<v Speaker 1>they weighed across the river for international aid donations of

0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:22.760
<v Speaker 1>food and water, but they can't bring themselves to stay

0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:25.639
<v Speaker 1>in the crowded camps overnight, so they wighed back to

0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:29.520
<v Speaker 1>sleep on the Burmese side of the bank. The UNHCR,

0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:32.520
<v Speaker 1>the High Commission on Refugees, has been unable to access

0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:35.240
<v Speaker 1>camps in Thailand or Me and Mah to check on

0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.880
<v Speaker 1>the conditions, but it has urged a Thai government, which

0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:41.680
<v Speaker 1>has been credibly accused of forcing people back across the border,

0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:45.200
<v Speaker 1>to move people to better conditions further into Thailand instead

0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:47.639
<v Speaker 1>of keeping them in camps near the border. And here

0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.840
<v Speaker 1>we find the unfortunate, unavoidable reality of the civil war

0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:53.760
<v Speaker 1>in Me and Mah. For all the uniqueness of aspects

0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:56.840
<v Speaker 1>of the conflict, the innovative ways gen Z militias have

0:17:57.000 --> 0:18:00.760
<v Speaker 1>interfaced with older ethnic military forces, the three D intoed arms, etc.

0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:03.280
<v Speaker 1>At the end of the day, this is another brutal,

0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:06.399
<v Speaker 1>horrific conflict between large numbers of people who want to

0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:09.200
<v Speaker 1>be free and a small number of people who want

0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:13.720
<v Speaker 1>to control them. From mir Mar to Armenia, Ukraine to Syria,

0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:18.560
<v Speaker 1>Ethiopia to Iraq and beyond. The novelties of twenty first

0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:21.000
<v Speaker 1>century conflict don't change the fact that, at the end

0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:23.679
<v Speaker 1>of the day, each war brings with it what might

0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:26.560
<v Speaker 1>be the truest symbol of our current age, parents saying

0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:30.439
<v Speaker 1>goodbye to their kids, camps filled with desperate people fleeing violence,

0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:33.560
<v Speaker 1>and governments all over the world willing to send nothing

0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:38.520
<v Speaker 1>more than kind words and stern warnings. This is a

0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:43.119
<v Speaker 1>PostScript to episode four. It's not one that we'd been

0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:46.000
<v Speaker 1>intending to record, because it's not news that we'd ever

0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:47.600
<v Speaker 1>hoped to have to share, but.

0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:49.639
<v Speaker 3>Here we are.

0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:54.000
<v Speaker 1>Unfortunately, we found out that about ten days after we

0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:57.840
<v Speaker 1>last spoken, a couple of weeks before we released our podcast,

0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:03.560
<v Speaker 1>Zor died and he died in battle fighting with the topmador.

0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:12.440
<v Speaker 1>He's really was, I suppose, an amazingly brave and courageous

0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:18.600
<v Speaker 1>young man, and I think that his loss is one

0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:22.920
<v Speaker 1>that reflects the realities of what war is, which is

0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:30.399
<v Speaker 1>not great and glorious and exciting. It's young men and

0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:35.080
<v Speaker 1>sometimes young women, young non binary folks. I imagine too,

0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:40.119
<v Speaker 1>dying when they had no quarrel with anyone, when they

0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:44.240
<v Speaker 1>just wanted to live their lives. Two years ago, a

0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.600
<v Speaker 1>year and a half ago, even he was just loving

0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:52.080
<v Speaker 1>the people he loved, having fun, being a kid, riding

0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:56.639
<v Speaker 1>his motorcycle, speaking to his girlfriend on his phone, living

0:19:56.680 --> 0:20:00.600
<v Speaker 1>a happy life. And then someone who had Howard, decided

0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:02.440
<v Speaker 1>that they wanted to have more power, and they decided

0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:06.680
<v Speaker 1>that it didn't matter how many kids had to die

0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:10.760
<v Speaker 1>so they could have what they want. And he decided

0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:12.760
<v Speaker 1>to say no to that, And that's brave, and I

0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:16.120
<v Speaker 1>think all of us would agree that what he did

0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:21.640
<v Speaker 1>was right and morally courageous, and that we would hope

0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:23.280
<v Speaker 1>to be brave enough to do the same if the

0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:28.800
<v Speaker 1>same thing happened to us. This one's hit me quite hard. Honestly.

0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:31.320
<v Speaker 1>I know this is my job and this happens, that

0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.520
<v Speaker 1>it's happened before and it will happen again. But he

0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:38.200
<v Speaker 1>was such a happy, polite, kind young man. He never

0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:42.280
<v Speaker 1>didn't pick up the phone, He never got tired of

0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:49.200
<v Speaker 1>explaining stuff that we didn't understand, and he always answered

0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:51.960
<v Speaker 1>our questions. It was nothing that was off the table.

0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:54.520
<v Speaker 1>There was nothing that he wouldn't talk about with us.

0:20:54.600 --> 0:21:00.359
<v Speaker 1>He was completely open, And Yeah, we will miss him greatly.

0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:05.000
<v Speaker 1>He died fighting the thing that we all have to

0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:15.720
<v Speaker 1>fight right, fascism, dictatorship, totalitarianism, militarization, and yeah, will grieve

0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:18.560
<v Speaker 1>his loss. Both Robert and I. We've just spoken on

0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:21.440
<v Speaker 1>the phone, and we found out because the contact of

0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.440
<v Speaker 1>mine on the ground sent me a Reddit message with

0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:27.200
<v Speaker 1>a link to a Facebook post and it's very clearly

0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:32.040
<v Speaker 1>zorin no doubt about that it names him, and unfortunately

0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:37.800
<v Speaker 1>it also shows him dead. So we're not in any

0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:41.119
<v Speaker 1>doubt that it was him who died, and we're not

0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:44.480
<v Speaker 1>in any doubt that we will gravely miss him either.

0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:48.280
<v Speaker 1>We both hoped to go over and record with him,

0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:51.399
<v Speaker 1>to speak with him, to meet him. I'd spoken to

0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:55.399
<v Speaker 1>him several times on video, sometimes just to chat, not

0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:58.600
<v Speaker 1>even to record anything, just just to chat, just to

0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:02.399
<v Speaker 1>catch up and and look at what each of us

0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:07.840
<v Speaker 1>was doing that day. So it's a hard loss for

0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:11.119
<v Speaker 1>me and for Robert two. As I said, we've just spoken,

0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:17.280
<v Speaker 1>so yeah, that's the news that we hadn't hoped to

0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:19.640
<v Speaker 1>end on. Obviously, though, this is the reality of war.

0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:22.440
<v Speaker 1>And as the world is looking at the conflict in

0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:26.719
<v Speaker 1>Ukraine now, i'd urge you to look at the conflict

0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:32.800
<v Speaker 1>in Myanmar to another Russian bomb killed another nice kid

0:22:33.680 --> 0:22:36.359
<v Speaker 1>who never had any quarrel with anyone, who just wanted

0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:39.399
<v Speaker 1>to live his life and didn't want to live the

0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:41.160
<v Speaker 1>rest of his life with a boot on his neck,

0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:45.080
<v Speaker 1>and so he decided to stand up against it. As

0:22:45.119 --> 0:22:48.040
<v Speaker 1>you can probably hear in my voice, I'm quite upset

0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:54.880
<v Speaker 1>by his loss and will be probably for a few days.

0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:57.920
<v Speaker 1>So I'm sorry to have to end this podcast on

0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:02.640
<v Speaker 1>such a sad note. I'm sorry for his family who

0:23:02.720 --> 0:23:06.240
<v Speaker 1>are now caught between the loss of their son and

0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:10.800
<v Speaker 1>trying to protect their daughters. I'm sorry for his girlfriend

0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:14.399
<v Speaker 1>who's dealing with shrapnel in her own leg and now

0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:17.640
<v Speaker 1>the loss of the person she loved. And I'm sorry

0:23:17.720 --> 0:23:20.119
<v Speaker 1>for his comrades. And they've said they'll go on fighting,

0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:22.680
<v Speaker 1>and I hope they do, and I don't think there's

0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:25.399
<v Speaker 1>any point really pretending to be objective at this stage

0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:29.359
<v Speaker 1>in the games, and I hope they win, but I

0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:35.879
<v Speaker 1>mostly just hope that one day, young men and women

0:23:36.160 --> 0:23:40.119
<v Speaker 1>and everyone else just gets to live their lives without

0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:45.879
<v Speaker 1>having to kill and die, because ultimately, no one should

0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:48.399
<v Speaker 1>have to and no parents should have to bury their kids.

0:23:49.920 --> 0:23:53.080
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, as much as we're all focusing on Ukraine

0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:56.680
<v Speaker 1>and what's happening there is terrible, Please don't forget Zora's comrades,

0:23:56.720 --> 0:24:01.520
<v Speaker 1>Please don't forget his legacy, and please don't forget him.

0:24:02.320 --> 0:24:04.760
<v Speaker 1>We won't and we obviously want to dedicate this podcast

0:24:04.840 --> 0:24:09.800
<v Speaker 1>to him and what he stood for. So yeah, thanks.

0:24:15.520 --> 0:24:17.879
<v Speaker 4>It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

0:24:18.119 --> 0:24:20.760
<v Speaker 5>For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:23.000
<v Speaker 5>cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:26.480
<v Speaker 5>iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:29.199
<v Speaker 4>You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

0:24:29.280 --> 0:24:32.280
<v Speaker 4>monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources.

0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:33.280
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for listening,