1 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious Exim Triumph in 2 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: Langley was arrested for the murder of six year old 3 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: Jeremy Guillory of Ioway. A three day search for the 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: missing boy ended when the child's body was found in 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: Langley's closet. The little boy had been strangled and molested, 6 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: but I stopped an old, dirty sock in his mouth 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: and I held his nose. I'm ready to do that 8 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: to make sure he couldn't get no air to Indy. 9 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: We will go till the ends of the earth to 10 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: make sure that the person who committed that event she's justice. 11 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 1: I think the ultimate judgment would be given to him 12 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: another time, another class. A six year old little boy 13 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: is dead. Jeremy juxtaposed that against an incredible book called 14 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: The Fact of a Body, a murder and a memoir 15 00:00:54,920 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: by Alexandria Marzano Lestovich. How do the two intersect? How 16 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: do the two collide? I mean, see Grace, this is 17 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here on 18 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: Sirius X. With me the author of the Fact of 19 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: a Body, Alexandria Marzano Lesnovich. Also with me high profile 20 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: psychologist Dr Chloe Carmichael, Hi, Dr Chloe, and Joseph Scott Morgan, 21 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: forensics expert Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville State University, and 22 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: of course Alan the Dup Dup joining me out of 23 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: l A. I want to start things by explaining a 24 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: little bit, just a tiny bit about the fact of 25 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: a body, a murder, and a memoir. Now remember the 26 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: backdrop is the murder of a six year old little boy, Jeremy. 27 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: Now before, Alexandria begins a summer job at a law 28 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: firm in Louisiana working for the defense defending for the 29 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: retrial of a death row inmate, convicted murderer and child 30 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: old molester, Ricky Langley. She thinks her position is very, 31 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: very plain. She is the daughter of two lawyers, and 32 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: she is very firm about the death penalty anti death penalty. 33 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: But the moment Ricky's face appears on a screen as 34 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 1: she is reviewing old tapes, the moment she hears him 35 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: actually talking about his crimes, She's overcome with a feeling 36 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: of wanting Ricky Langley to die, which is against everything 37 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,959 Speaker 1: she has ever believed. I want you to first hear 38 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: a confession tape by the convicted child molester and killer, 39 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: Ricky Langley. I wrapped that string, knowledge string around his neck, 40 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: and proved as hard as I could on it. You know, 41 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: you know that's it wasn't stopping him trying to breed. 42 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: He was still trying to breathe, but a stuffed, an 43 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: old dirty stuck in his mouth, and I held his nose. 44 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: Why did you do that to make sure he couldn't 45 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: get in no air? Okay? To end it to Alexandria 46 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: Marzono Wesnevich, the author of the Fact of a Body, 47 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: a Murder and a Memoir. Alexandria, thank you for being 48 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: with us. Tell me how you came to write the book. 49 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. Um. I really wrote the 50 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: book because I was so haunted by the case. And 51 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: it's the act of writing the book was really an 52 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: act of trying to figure out why it was haunting me, 53 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: so why it seemed to be getting so tangled up 54 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,119 Speaker 1: with my memories of my own past. So I had 55 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: watched the video tape, as you said, while I was 56 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: an intern at this law firm. I didn't work directly 57 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: on his case, Um, but they showed us this confession tape, 58 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: and up to that moment, My feelings were so clear. 59 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: Right after I watched the tape, I learned that Jeremy 60 00:03:55,760 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: Gillory's mother, Laura, like Gillary, had taken the stand at 61 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: the trial. There were three trials, and so she had 62 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: taken the stand at the second trial, and she had 63 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: actually pleaded to keep Ricky Langley alive. She testified for him, 64 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: and UM, and that moment, I was so struck that 65 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: she had been able to do this, and I couldn't 66 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: that even though despite what I believe, despite what I 67 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: wanted to fight for. You know, I had gone to 68 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: law school wanting to fight the death penalty. Um, how 69 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: had she been able to do that? And why couldn't I? 70 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: And I think for years I was also haunted by 71 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: it because it raised this question, you know, is who 72 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: we are determined by what we believe and what we 73 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: want to fight for? Or is who we are determined 74 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: by what happened in our past? Because what happened for 75 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: me is that the Langley case really hit hard against 76 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: all these things in my own past I couldn't think 77 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: about or talk about. And so for years, you know, 78 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: the case, the details of the case, UM, there was 79 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: this be begun that Jeremy had there was a blue 80 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: blanket that Ricky Langley wrapped his body in. These details 81 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: would just come back to me really like I was 82 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: haunted by them. And years later I started to get 83 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: some of the court records from the case in an 84 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: attempt to lay the past arrest, in an attempt to 85 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: kind of put it in the ground stop thinking about it. 86 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,239 Speaker 1: Um and had started really led into this book. Wow, 87 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: Alexandria Marzano Lesnevich, author of the Fact of a Body, 88 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 1: a Murderer and a Memoir. I didn't want you to 89 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: stop talking to hear you recall those moments and how 90 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: your past factors in to this particular case haunting you. 91 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: Jo's got Morgan, I know that you are familiar with 92 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: the murder of six year old Jeremy Gilroy. What happened. 93 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: It's it's an absolutely uh brutal case that that took 94 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:45,919 Speaker 1: place in Uh in the home of It's actually a 95 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: rented room that was down the street from where this 96 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: little child lived with his mother en mother. Um. They 97 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: kind of migrated around in this little tiny area of 98 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: of Iowa, lose Annam and UH didn't have much to 99 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: UH to speak of in material possessions and um, uh, 100 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: this child, who was at least peripherally familiar with uh 101 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 1: with Langley, was essentially lured in uh to to the 102 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 1: home and at that point in time, UM, there's it's 103 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 1: it's alluded to at least that potentially, uh Langley had 104 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 1: had an attraction him because he had actually been in 105 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: his child's presence when a child was being bathed or bathing. 106 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: And UM, wait a minute, wait a minute, how did 107 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: that happen that a child molester is in the presence 108 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: of a six year old boy when he's being bathed. 109 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: I think that the dynamics of this family UH probably 110 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: you know that are dictated by a lot of the 111 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: the uh, the circumstances that the mother were in was 112 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: in uh you know, left him in in a position 113 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: where Lane Lee had actually watch cared over over this 114 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: child at least for a small period of time just 115 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: previous to the to the homicide. And Alexander speaks to 116 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: this uh in compelling terms about that this is kind 117 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: of where the seed seed was planted. Um. And eventually 118 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: what happened was that Langley um um strangled this little boy. 119 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: But but it's it's so much more than that. To 120 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: Alexandria Morozono Lesnovich, author of the Fact of a Body 121 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: Murder and memoir. Isn't it true that at one juncture 122 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: we learned that Ricky Langley claims he likes to sleep 123 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: in graveyards and that he wanted to sleep with the 124 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: body of the six year old boy. Yeah, there is 125 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: a long history of making making these kinds of statements. Um. 126 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: He has a fascination with the occult that seems to 127 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: go back to when he was a fild and to 128 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: the circumstances of his birth and to the circumstances of 129 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: his early childhood. And so he tells many stories later 130 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: about strangling Jeremy Um, in which he gives many different 131 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: reasons that he did so and many different feelings that 132 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: he hit afterwards. I think one of the things that 133 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: drew me to this case was that the record is 134 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: full of him kind of telling himself the story of 135 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: the murder, trying to figure out why he did it. 136 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: And Yeah, that's one of one of the stories he gives. 137 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: Did he most Jeremy before he was murdered? That is 138 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: the question, That is the question. And it's really striking 139 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: to me that in three trials they never really solidly 140 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: answered that question. Were forensics stand on the child's body, Alexandria, Yes, 141 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: they were, They were, and Um Ricky langley sperm was 142 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 1: found on the child's T shirt, on Jeremy's T shirt. 143 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: He was wearing a little white fruit of the Loom 144 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: T shirt and they cut the seman scenes out of it. 145 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: And the location of that semen and how it might 146 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: have transferred, whether it transferred or whether it got there 147 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: through Ricky Langley doing something UM was a source of 148 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: a lot of debate at the trial. UM. But confusingly, 149 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: there was also a piece of evidence found on him, 150 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: a pubic care found on his lip that did not 151 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: match for he Langley two. Just got Morgan, Um, I 152 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: cannot explain the hair on the child's lip, but I 153 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: can't explain Ricky Langley's sperm on the child's T shirt. 154 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: I can't explain that. And I don't need just got Morgan. 155 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: I used to argue to juries. You know, I learned 156 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: early on as a child, as a little girl, it's 157 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: easier to understand something if you're hearing a story like 158 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: a parable. Get it a parable, a story that makes 159 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: a point part of every son morning stories that teach 160 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: you a point. And this is what I would tell 161 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: a jury. The judge will instruct you that circumstantial evidence 162 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 1: is as powerful, in my opinion, even more powerful sometimes 163 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: than direct evidence. Direct evidence is like an eyewitness or 164 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: d n A or a fingerprint. Circumstantial evidence is this. 165 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: When you come into your office in the morning, it's 166 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: eight am and the sky is bright and shiny, not 167 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 1: a cloud to be seen. You come out at lunchtime, 168 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: it's dark, dark, it's cloudy. There's water on the ground, 169 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: pools of water. Men are going by hugging their raincoats. 170 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: Women have umbrellas. You don't have to see the storm 171 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: to know it. Rained that circumstantial evidence. What you can 172 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: deduce figure out from what you see, what you smell, 173 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: what you hear, what you touch. That circumstantial evidence, and 174 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: it is powerful. Nobody needs to tell me that the 175 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: child was molested when the killer sperm is on the 176 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: child's T shirt and either crazy one of this scenario 177 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, no, no. And the beauty of direct evidence, 178 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: when when coupled with with the narrative that's that's left behind, 179 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: is that it does fill in the blanks for us. 180 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: The trick is I think, based on my experience in 181 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: court and the labs, is if the the prosecutor has 182 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: the ability to put these pieces together and present it 183 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: in a manner in which you know, can sway sway 184 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: the jury to their point of view. And it's three trials. Wow. 185 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: Uh And you know there's there are a lot of 186 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: conclusions that can be drawn here. But I agree with you. 187 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 1: Uh something you know you you don't find ejaculant on 188 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 1: on a T shirt? Uh that belongs to a small 189 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: child like this without something having happened. Well, I mean 190 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: it's the defendant sperm. It's not the child sperm. Hold on, 191 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: before I go back into the facts, I want to 192 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: bring in a renowned psychologist joining us out of Manhattan. 193 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: It's Dr Chloe Carmichael. Dr Chloe, thank you for being 194 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: with us. The real issue here, I mean, you heard 195 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: the confession about sticking a sock in the little boy's 196 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: mouth and pinching his nose so we couldn't breathe. His 197 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: T shirt covered in the defendant sperm. The question is 198 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: going to be was he insane at the time of 199 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: the act. Now, under our law, our Anglo Saxon jurisprudence, 200 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: and I say that because we brought our common law 201 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 1: from Great Britain. That's where we got it, okay, And 202 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: at the time it was brought it was created, it 203 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: was under the Saxon and Anglo rule. That's where that 204 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: comes from. And under our law, the McNaughton law of 205 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: insanity is if you knew right or wrong at the 206 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: time you committed the act, not when you go to trial, 207 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: not when you're in jail and you're throwing your food 208 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: and humming to yourself at the time of the incident, 209 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: and the argument at trial Dr Chloe Carmichael was that 210 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: he knew to cover up his crime at the time 211 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: he tried to cover it up, which says too many 212 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: that he knew right from wrong. Dr Chloe Carmichael wag 213 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: in Um, I would agree that this definitely sounds like 214 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: somebody who is able to tell right from wrong. Certainly, 215 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: it sounds like a very damaged and warped person from 216 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,959 Speaker 1: a tragic background who absolutely was struggling with mental illness. 217 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 1: But you know, you're absolutely right, Nancy, there's no evidence 218 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: to say that this person did not know right from wrong. 219 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: For example, he never attempted anything like this um in 220 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: front of other people. Right, he waited an till he 221 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: was alone, He waited until he was in secret. Uh. 222 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: He originally lied to the police, from what I understand, 223 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: and said, you know that that the little boy had 224 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 1: not been there, And as you said, he then hid 225 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: the body. Um. So he later recalled and discussed it 226 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: with such clarity and such willingness. Um. But I think 227 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: that might have more to do with a desire on 228 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: his part to try to seek some kind of absolution. Um. 229 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: But I certainly don't think that he was unable to 230 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: tell the difference between right and wrong at the time. 231 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: You know, one thing that I really appreciated to Alexandria Marzano, Lesnovitch, 232 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: our special guests joining us author of the fact of 233 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: a body, is that the judge struggled. The judge struggled 234 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: with what to do, and he went on and on 235 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: about how could two renowned experts come to such startlingly 236 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: different conclusions, about was this guy insane at the time 237 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: he murdered six year old Jeremy. Did you notice that, Alexandra, 238 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: he really discussed it a lot. Oh, absolutely, I mean 239 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: he even discussed throughout the trial. He even discussed how 240 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: much the case was driving him to drink um and 241 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: how much when he went home at night, he was 242 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: haunted by what he had seen in the corner room, 243 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: the images of Jeremy's body. He was also just giving 244 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: me chills on my arms right now, because you just 245 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: in that one moment brought back all the times I 246 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: would have to actually pull off the road in my 247 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: car when I would leave the courthouse. And I have 248 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: a very strict rule against a drinking And I'll tell 249 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: you why. It's not a moral or ethical rule. It's 250 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: that I've seen it destroy so many people destroy and 251 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: when you see cases like this as I have, sometimes 252 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: it is overwhelming. In you know what, I'm not proud 253 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: of anybody that that drinks too much or drive drives 254 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: drinking or but the fact that he struggled so much 255 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: shows me that this judge cared. He cared, he cared 256 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: about what happened, He cared about doing the right thing. 257 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: I really think he did. And then, and those comments 258 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: started even during Vaudier year tour in jury selection, when 259 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: he was also clearly haunted by seeing Ricky in front 260 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: of him, and the fact that that you know, in 261 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: his courtroom it would be determined whether Rickie Langley lived 262 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: or died. He spoke quite movingly on the record about 263 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: not know fearing that decision, fearing being haunted by it 264 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: years later, fearing either way the case came out, you know, 265 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: whether Langley was found it was convicted and sentenced to death, 266 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: which he ultimately wasn't in that trial, um, but fearing 267 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: that that too would haunt him, but also fearing what 268 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: would happen if, you know, he had to look at 269 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: these pictures of this little boy, look at this little 270 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: boy's mother, and say that there would be no justice 271 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: for him. So one of the things that the judge 272 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: really showed me was the cost on the different people 273 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: involved in the criminal justice system. Well hold on just 274 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: a moment, and the cost on you, Yes, Alexandria Amrazano Lessnovitch, 275 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: who became intimately familiar with this death penalty case and 276 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: the molestation and murder of a six year old little boy, Jeremy. 277 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: The toll it took on you during that internship. The 278 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: toll it takes on Dr Chloe Carmichael as she struggles 279 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: with issues like this. Psychologists joining me out of Manhattan. 280 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, he's a death investigator, myself had Delane 281 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 1: have handled literally thousands of felonies. The toll it takes 282 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 1: on you, it changes your life forever. You don't believe me, 283 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: listen to this. I wrapped that string, knowledge string around 284 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,640 Speaker 1: his neck and prove it as hard as I could 285 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: on it. You know, you know that still wasn't stopping 286 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: him trying to breathe. He was still trying to breathe. 287 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: But I stuffed an old, dirty sock in his mouth 288 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: and I held his nose that to make sure he 289 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: couldn't get in the air to end. Hold on just 290 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 1: a moment, I want to address something. You know, there's 291 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: a lot of cold cases out there, like the Golden 292 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: State Killer, and they've been in the news a lot recently. 293 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 1: But guess what, there's so many cold case murders across 294 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: the country you never hear about. Well. Kelly Sigler and 295 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: her team are changing that. On Oxygen's Cold Justice, Kelly 296 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: and her team of detectives dig into real cold murder 297 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 1: cases in search of answers for victims and their families, 298 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: and the show's executive producer is Dick Wolfe, the creator 299 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: of Law and Order. Each case really draws you in. 300 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: You feel like you're part of Kelly's team and you 301 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: will love how they work so hard to get justice 302 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: because each case as personal to Kelly and the whole team. Well, 303 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 1: buckle up watch the new season of Cold Justice Saturday, 304 00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: six pm Eastern, five pm Central, and you can find 305 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: it on Oxygen. With Me. The author of the Fact 306 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 1: of a Body a Murder in memoir, Alexandria Marzano Lesenovich, 307 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 1: who was profoundly affected by the time she spent working 308 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,959 Speaker 1: on a death penalty case, going into the case staunchly 309 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: against the death penalty. In fact, her aim was to 310 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 1: save Rickey Langley from the death penalty. Langley convicted of 311 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: murdering a six year old little boy, Jeremy Gilroy. With Me, 312 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 1: Dr Chloe Carmichael's psychologists out of Manhattan and renowned for 313 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: instance expert Joe Scott Morgan, Professor of forensics at Jacksonville 314 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: State University and death investigator. You know, when I was 315 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: growing up, I never thought that I would put behind 316 00:19:54,720 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: my name specialty serial, murder, serial rape, serial I'm lastation. 317 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: I just didn't see that coming, you know, in my world, Alexandra, 318 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: when I was growing up, I thought that I would 319 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: get a car or truck and on the back I 320 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 1: would have one of those traveling like RV trailers and 321 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 1: it would be full of books, books, just nothing but 322 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: books in there. And that I would also behind that 323 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: have attached another trailer with a horse in it. That 324 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: was what I would thought I would do, and I 325 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 1: would write books and play with my horse. That's what 326 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: I That was my plan, Okay. I did not know 327 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,919 Speaker 1: that one day it would be Nancy Grace trial specialty 328 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: serial murder, serial rape, and serial child lostation and any 329 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: type of arson. That was basically on my calling card. 330 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: I'm sure Joe Scott, you didn't think that you would 331 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 1: be death investigator, and Dr Chloe probably did not imagine 332 00:20:55,200 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: she would be helping people sort through life changing issues. Alexandria, 333 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: your childhood really played into the way the six year 334 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: old Jeremy's murder affected you. It did, and in fact, 335 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: it was everything that I didn't think about in my 336 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 1: childhood that was sort of forced to the forefront by 337 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: encountering this case. So when I watched he Langley's confession, 338 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 1: which you now heard a clip of, I was sitting 339 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: in that room. I remember it so clearly. I was 340 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 1: in this big Cavernous Loss Law firm library, dark wood lined, 341 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,360 Speaker 1: the shelves lined with the leather bound books that hold 342 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 1: all the old case registers. And I was sitting on 343 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: a folding chair. Um, I was pretty nervous. I was 344 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 1: twenty five years old. It was only my third day 345 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: in this internship, and so you can imagine, you know, 346 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: I was wearing a new suit, kind of scratching on 347 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: my skin, and I'm sitting there and I've been waiting 348 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 1: for this moment since I was a child, really, since 349 00:21:57,960 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 1: I learned about the death penalt day at eight years 350 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: old old. I had wanted to fight it. And they 351 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: queue up this tape and they play this tape and 352 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 1: Ricky Langley on the tape describes the pleasure he took 353 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 1: in molesting small children, and he described very vividly, very 354 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 1: specific actions that he did, and all of a sudden, listening, 355 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: I wasn't twenty five years old anymore. All of a sudden, 356 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: I was a child again, and I could feel all 357 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: my grandfather's hands on me. And that was the moment 358 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: that I wanted him to die. I had never forgotten 359 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 1: being molested, you know, it wasn't like that, but it 360 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: was something that I tried really, really hard not to 361 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 1: think about UM, precisely because the memories lived so vividly 362 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: in my body. So I think why this case haunted 363 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 1: me so much for for so many years is just 364 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 1: everything that it made me confront that lived inside me, 365 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: that I had tried so desperately not to confront, not 366 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: to think about, not to deal with. Yah, Alexandria Marzana Lesnevich. 367 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 1: Hearing you talk is actually bringing me to tears, because 368 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: we all have, or I guess many of us, not 369 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: all of us, those moments, those horrible moments in our 370 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: lives that try their best to define us, that we 371 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 1: carry around every single day. I've dealt with so many 372 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: rape victims, child leustation victims, and their lives are forever changed. 373 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: Dr Chloe Carmichael. When this happens to you as a child, 374 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: you don't even have a chance to fully develop as 375 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:59,160 Speaker 1: a person. You know, it's your entire life. It's affected. 376 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: I want to say, to find but as we see 377 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: in Alexander's case, she did not let it define her. 378 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: Help me, Dr Chloe. Sure, well, Nancy, I think you're 379 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 1: exactly right, which is that UM, we would actually be 380 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: pathologizing anybody you know who has suffered this kind of abuse. 381 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: If we were to say, you know, well, because the 382 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: Keller experience to this abuse, this was therefore became his 383 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: destiny to act out that way upon other people, and 384 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,120 Speaker 1: that would actually be the most damaging and stigmatizing thing 385 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: that we could do. So UM, as a psychologist, I 386 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: have to say that this is a situation where we 387 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: have to be able to hold both truths at the 388 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: same time. Um, that that Ricky Langley was a was 389 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: a victim himself, and then he chose not to control himself, 390 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 1: not to you know, get the help that he needed. Um. 391 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 1: There's it's one thing. It's one level in psychology to 392 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 1: have urges to molest children. It's another thing to act 393 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: on it. Um. So from what I understand, he had 394 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 1: experienced those urges and had even been convicted in the 395 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 1: past of child molestation. So this is somebody who actually 396 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: had experience and had you know, had attempts from society 397 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 1: at trying to correct him before, and he chose to 398 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 1: go another way, and we need to understand that that 399 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: was his choice and therefore he needs to be held accountable. 400 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: You know, just got Morgan back to the issue of 401 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: whether he knew right from wrong. I noticed that during 402 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: the trial, Langley appeared to be paying attention, and he 403 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,439 Speaker 1: actually broke out smiling at many many points during the trial, 404 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: even though he had a bandage under one of his 405 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: eyes from a cut that he had gotten from a 406 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: fight with another inmate. But when the state played the 407 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: tape of Langley confessing to killing Jeremy and testimony when 408 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: the police uncovered the body, he hung his head down 409 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 1: and would not watch. And you know what that reminds 410 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 1: me of Joe Scott. I remember when I was called 411 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 1: to the stand and my fiancee's murder, and I took 412 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,360 Speaker 1: the stand. I remember that distinctly. Everything else melts away. 413 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: I can't remember hardly a thing, but I remember coming 414 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: down off the witness stand, and it was high up, 415 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: even with the judges, almost even with the judge, and 416 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: you would walk up one set of stairs and there 417 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: was a little landing, and then you go up to 418 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,120 Speaker 1: an another set of stairs and to the witness stand. 419 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: You're up, way up. And I remember walking down, and 420 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: I remember my boots on the wood, and I walked 421 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: past the state's table and I saw Keith's bloody denim 422 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 1: shirt that I had not seen, and I saw it 423 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: lying on the states table, and then I kept walking. 424 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: I got to the defense table. I looked at the defendant. 425 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: He met my eyes and immediately looked down. And then 426 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: I looked at the defense lawyer and he it tik 427 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: my eyes and then he looked down, like straight into 428 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 1: his lap. They couldn't look up. And I remember just 429 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 1: standing there staring at them, and then walking out and 430 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: my boots making the footsteps sounds on the marble floor 431 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: until the door shut behind me. That's what I remember. 432 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: And when I hear Langley just looked down when his 433 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 1: confession was being played, that means a lot to me. 434 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, Yeah, I know it does. Nancy Uh can't 435 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: just say I gotta tell you something that's really gripping 436 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: to me and kind of devetails what you're saying here. 437 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: And I don't know if Alexander can really, you know, 438 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: um comment on this or not. But in his in 439 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,360 Speaker 1: his confession, he may have looked down in court at 440 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: that moment time, But in his confession there was something 441 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: that just really stood out to me. And that's when 442 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: he didn't say that as he was using a ligature 443 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: on his child's that that that he wanted to hurry 444 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 1: or speed his death. He said, I took an old, 445 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: dirty sock, not just to sock, I stuffed it in 446 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: his mouth and then I held his nose. And to me, 447 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: that one statement really sums this up with this fellow. 448 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: This seems as though that maybe he is fighting some 449 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 1: kind of internal battle. I don't know, in the whole 450 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: grand scheme of things, in the light of this child 451 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: who cannot speak for himself any longer, I don't really care. 452 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: But it does talk about the the person, the essence 453 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: of what this perpetrator was relative to this this innocence life, 454 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: and that just it just it's haunting. I mean, it's 455 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: absolutely harnted. And it just gripped me. And that's the 456 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: first time I've heard that confession. Uh, it just really 457 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: gripped me. And I don't know if that impacted Alexy 458 00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: and it's the same way, but it just it just 459 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: really kind of reached out through the microphone and and 460 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, grabbed me by by the scruff 461 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: of the neck. Alexandria Marizano Lesanovich, the author of the 462 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: Fact of a Body, a Murder, and a Memoir, when 463 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: you heard this confession, you stated that it immediately brought 464 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: back the horrible memories of your childhood and your grandfather's 465 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: assault on you. How did you ever reconcile that was 466 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 1: your grandfather ever brought to justice? Not only was he 467 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: not brought to justice, but he wasn't thought of as 468 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: a criminal. What what? I'm sorry? Not only was he 469 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: not brought to justice, but he wasn't thought of as 470 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: a criminal. What do you mean by that? Oh? I 471 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: mean that you know, in my family, we just didn't 472 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: talk about the abuse. Um. It was basically forbidden to 473 00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: do so. Not basically it was forbidden to do so. Um. 474 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: And even as I was in law school, it never 475 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: occurred to me that what he had done was criminal. 476 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: It wasn't until I was writing the book and thinking 477 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: constantly of this murder as the crime in the book, 478 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: which of course it is. It's a horrible crime in 479 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: the book, that I slowly realized that actually I was 480 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: writing about two crimes. I was actually writing about two criminals. 481 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: And part of why I wanted to tell the story 482 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: was to get at maybe the different ways that we 483 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: sometimes think of abuse when it happens within a family. 484 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: We sometimes don't recognize that what has happened is a crime. 485 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: And so when I was, you know, writing this, I did. 486 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: I did confront my grandfather when I was a teenager, 487 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: and I don't I you know, I looked back now 488 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: at that eighteen year old who went off to confront him, 489 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: and I am in awe of her bravery. You know, 490 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: I think often actually of that. I went to the 491 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: apartment building where he was living, and I remember so 492 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: vividly the walk down the hallway to his apartment where 493 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: I was going to finally speak the words allowed to 494 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: him that no one had ever confronted him on I'm 495 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: all that girls pratfray. And when I confronted him, you know, 496 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: he didn't deny it, and he certainly didn't apologize for it. 497 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 1: He was almos suppostful about it. But then he called 498 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: me the next day and asked me if I forgave him. 499 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: No apology, just asked me if I forgave him, which 500 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: in its way was an acknowledgement of all the harm 501 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: he had done. I don't know, I just that makes 502 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: me so angry to hear that he asked you to 503 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: forgive him, because now the onus is on you that 504 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: you have to forgive and oh, that is so wrong, 505 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: that the honest is on you to forgive him and 506 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: another thing. And please don't be angry with me, Alexandria. Please, 507 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: what were your parents doing during all of this when 508 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: you had to go confront him? You told your parents, right, 509 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: I did tell my parents, And I think in some ways, 510 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: you know, there are many reasons I wrote this book, 511 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: but I think in some ways I partially wrote this 512 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: book to understand my parents choices, because it's very different 513 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: when you're sort of living the memories, you see them 514 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: only from your own perspective, but when you're actually writing 515 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: about people, you have to try to imagine or try 516 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: to understand, um, what they might have been thinking. And 517 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: my grandparents, my parents rather chose not to confront him. Um. 518 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: They chose actually to keep the whole thing a secret. 519 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: They did make sure that he wasn't alone with us 520 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: again in a situation where he could molest us. Um. 521 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: But you know, they kept him coming to the house, 522 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: which was very very hard for me when I was 523 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: growing up, and very hard for me when I was 524 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: a teenager, very hard for me afterwards too. Um. And 525 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: so part of writing this was to try to understand 526 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: the way that the choices that they made on the 527 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,719 Speaker 1: one hand, I really think kept our family together, you know, 528 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: but on the other hand, caused these deep fissures and 529 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: these deep, deep hurts. And you know, I've heard from 530 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: so many people since this book came out. I'll tell you, 531 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: for the first four months after this book came out, 532 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: I got between one and three emails a day from 533 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: people who had been abused and whose families kept it 534 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: a secret, and who were talking about the things that 535 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: the book had opened up inside of them. And one 536 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: of them is sort of trying to understand this stigma 537 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: and this secrecy and this silence that often attaches to abuse, 538 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: and specifically the stigma attaches to the abuse victims, and 539 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: people don't want to talk about it um and I 540 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: think that's part of what allows it to continue. Can 541 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: I ask you something, Alexandria Morizana Lesnevitch, who's channeled all 542 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: of that that you're hearing right now into this incredible work, 543 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: the fact of a body a murder in a memoir 544 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: in later life, as you're writing this book, did you 545 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: ask your parents why they did not confront anymore? Did they? 546 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: And you didn't know about it. What do they say. 547 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: They said, actually that they couldn't and I knew this 548 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: that they couldn't, and it's in the book. They consulted 549 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: a psychologist at the time who told him that the 550 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: best thing to do would be to model not being 551 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: affected by it. And I think that that was the 552 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: advice that was given in a certain time period, you know. Um, 553 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: And part of my well, wait, the advice was to 554 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: do what to model it not having an impact, so 555 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: not to make a big deal out of it, not 556 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: to you know, not to sort of confront him, not 557 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: to you know, to just model that maybe it didn't matter. 558 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,280 Speaker 1: And I think that that was maybe the advice given 559 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: in a certain time period. Um, okay, that make actually 560 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: makes me feel a tiny modicum better that they tried 561 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 1: to do something. Absolutely, they tried to do it just discounted. 562 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: They went, They sought out a professionally, said what do 563 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 1: we do? What's the best thing for Alexandria, And that's 564 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: what they were told. So that's what they did. Absolutely, 565 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: And part of what I wanted to capture was the 566 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: cost of that, right, like everybody was doing. But I 567 00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: think one of the hard things about this story is 568 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,280 Speaker 1: that the families were doing what they thought was best. 569 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: You know, you see this too. And Ricky Langley's family, um, 570 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: which really struggled. His family really struggled, and when he 571 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: as a young man started to struggle, they took him 572 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: to a psychologist. You know, they tried to do what 573 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 1: they thought was best. Well, this is something that I know, 574 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: Alexandri and I'm coming right back to you. And unlike 575 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: for Dr Chloe Carmichael and Joe Scott Morgan and the 576 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 1: Duke to take this in as well. Um, Laura lay 577 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 1: Gilroy comes home, calls for her son, who had been 578 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 1: outside playing. She didn't get a response. She went to 579 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: the Lawrence house, where her baby often played. Langley answered 580 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: the door. Gilroy asked him if he had seen her son. 581 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: He said, no, Okay, you know that just reminded me 582 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: of something. Okay, do you remember the very first murder? Okay, 583 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: Kaine and Enable and they come and say, where's your brother? 584 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,280 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know the very first murder. 585 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 1: She comes and says, where is Jeremy. I don't know, 586 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 1: I haven't seen him. She goes to go search for 587 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: him and then comes back to call nine one one. 588 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:18,879 Speaker 1: Right after that, he Ricky Langley makes his own nine 589 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: one one call to report the boy missing and then 590 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: pretends to help the mother look for the boy. They 591 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 1: start to search the wooded area. A command center is 592 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: set up, a search was conducted throughout the weekend. Finally, 593 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 1: on that Monday, police get information that there was a 594 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: convicted child molester named Ricky Langley whose last address was 595 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: in the area. What happened then, Joe Scott Morgan, How 596 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: was Jeremy's body found? And this is after all the subterfuge, 597 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: his own nine one one call, him ending to help 598 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: find the boy after he'd just stuffed a dirty sock 599 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,720 Speaker 1: in his mouth. How was the body found? Joe Scott 600 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: Morgan found in the home of Ricky Langley in a 601 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:16,760 Speaker 1: closet um placed in there by this person who had, 602 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: you know, initially attempted to aid in search. And it's 603 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: quite striking as well. One of one of the things 604 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 1: that's brought forward in this is that when Laurela, the 605 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: mother had initially come searching for her little boy. Uh 606 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 1: Alexander points out in her work that that um that 607 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,799 Speaker 1: he was, that initially he had laid him out on 608 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: the bed covered with a Dick Tracy blanket, if you will, 609 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 1: a cartoon character, and the mother had come to the 610 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: house initially looking for her little boy. The b begun 611 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: that he had carried leaned against the wall there. Uh 612 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 1: and this you know, the cycle continues until finally the 613 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,840 Speaker 1: young young boy's body is actually found uh, in the 614 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 1: home of Ricky Langland. I want to go to Dr 615 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 1: Chloe Carmichael joining us psychologists out of Manhattan. We're talking 616 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,879 Speaker 1: about the horrific molestation and murder of a six year 617 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:22,919 Speaker 1: old little boy, Jeremy Gilroy, against the backdrop of this 618 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: incredible book, The Fact of a Body, a Murder and 619 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: a Memoir by Alexandria Marzano Lesanovitch joining us, Dr Chloe. 620 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 1: I keep thinking about what Alexandria said about her own 621 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: horrific moments as a child when she was assaulted by 622 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 1: her grandfather and it all came rushing back to her 623 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 1: and she can actually feel his hands on her body 624 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 1: again as she heard testimony and evidence in this case. 625 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the advice the parents were given by 626 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: a psychologist to try to minimize what happened, not make 627 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 1: a big deal out of it at the time, to 628 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: help Alexandria heal. What do you make of that? Dr 629 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 1: Chloe Carmichael, Thanks Nancy, that's such a such an important question. UM. 630 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 1: So it is true that we don't want to suggest 631 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: to a child that's something like this has to define them. UM. 632 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 1: But but we do definitely want to model for the 633 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: child that the abuser does need to be held accountable, 634 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: and we want to praise the child for speaking up. 635 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: We want to make the child, UM know that the 636 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,839 Speaker 1: adults will stand around them and support them, and we 637 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: also want to model that we will insist that the 638 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: abuser get help and support and be held accountable. UM. 639 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,400 Speaker 1: You know, Alexandria, you're you know, such a brave person 640 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 1: to be able to share all of this, UM and 641 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: and to put this out for us to to understand together. 642 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,760 Speaker 1: And in that particular case, I also can't help. But wonder, UM, 643 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 1: you know about your grand father's relationship with you know, 644 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: either the mother or the father that ultimately you know, 645 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 1: decided to UM suggest that the healthiest thing here to 646 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: do would be to keep it quiet. UM. Sometimes these 647 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,319 Speaker 1: family patterns do get transmitted. You know. There's been a 648 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 1: lot of controversy for some reason as to whether Ricky Langley, 649 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 1: a known pedophile, assaulted six year old Jeremy before his murder, 650 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 1: and I'd like to direct everyone's attention to the Court 651 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 1: of Appeals of Louisiana, Third Circuit, Louisiana versus Ricky Joseph Langley, 652 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,720 Speaker 1: and this decision was April six, two thousand and eleven. 653 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 1: The facts has laid out and they go back to 654 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:49,280 Speaker 1: the trial transcript, which is undisputed as to what happened 655 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: at trial. Granted there were several trials, but it was 656 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:59,800 Speaker 1: not disputed what the defendants said. The defendants said that 657 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:04,399 Speaker 1: at from the moment he saw the six year old boy, 658 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: he quote wanted him, that he wanted to molest him. 659 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: On the friday that he murdered the six year old child, Jeremy, 660 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,680 Speaker 1: the child was at the house playing with Lawrence's son, 661 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,879 Speaker 1: but Jeremy left when Mrs Lawrence and her son left 662 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 1: to visit a relative. He later returned with a BB 663 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 1: gun while the defendant was there alone and asked if 664 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: his little friend was there. The defendant said, come in 665 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,919 Speaker 1: and visit, so Jeremy came in and put his BB 666 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 1: gun down in the front room, where it was later 667 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 1: spotted as Joseph Scott Morgan told you still sitting in 668 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:44,319 Speaker 1: the front room. Defendants said he knew then that he 669 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: would quote mess with the child unless someone came home 670 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,920 Speaker 1: where the child left immediately. Langley goes on to state 671 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 1: that while Jeremy was playing, he went up behind him, 672 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 1: put his arm around his neck, lifted him off the 673 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: floor and choked him, and that he knew then he 674 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 1: was going to kill the six year old child. He 675 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,920 Speaker 1: stated that Jeremy was kicking and that his little boots 676 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,320 Speaker 1: came off his feet. He was kicking so hard to live. 677 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:24,440 Speaker 1: He goes on to state he quote felt enjoyment while 678 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,319 Speaker 1: he was choking the six year old child, that when 679 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 1: Jeremy quit moving, he carried him to his Langley's bedroom 680 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,000 Speaker 1: and laid him on the bed. That he then put 681 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 1: his penis in the child's mouth and ejaculated. He states 682 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 1: to Jeremy left Jeremy there and went about the task 683 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: of doing laundry. At some point, Jeremy was making noises, 684 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:59,359 Speaker 1: and he then put a ligature around his neck, choked him, 685 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: pulling the guitar as hard as he could, tying the 686 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 1: ends of the court together, and stuffed a sock in 687 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:11,799 Speaker 1: Jeremy's mouth. Those are the facts as recited by the 688 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: Court of Appeals of Louisiana, Third Circuit. Those are the 689 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:24,080 Speaker 1: facts as we know them now. Alexandria Marzano Lessanovich ended 690 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 1: up working on this case as an intern at a 691 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: law firm tasked with getting Langley out of the death penalty. Alexandria, 692 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:41,759 Speaker 1: when you look back on your task of saving this 693 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 1: guy from the death penalty, and you contrast that with 694 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:50,840 Speaker 1: the facts that I have just recited from the trial transcript, 695 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: what are your thoughts? You know? I I You said 696 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 1: something earlier that had really stayed with me, Nancy, when 697 00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 1: you talked about how one thing about circumstance evidence means 698 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: that we can tell a story out of it, and 699 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:07,840 Speaker 1: this case was really a contest between stories. So, for example, 700 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,640 Speaker 1: one of the really riveting facts you just gave us 701 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 1: that Langley ejaculated into Jeremy's mouth. It's really important to 702 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:17,960 Speaker 1: note that at one trial that was given as a fact, 703 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,239 Speaker 1: but at other trials that was not only disputed, but 704 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,279 Speaker 1: in fact, there was no physical evidence of it. So 705 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,880 Speaker 1: that when they other than his statement and the sperm 706 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,680 Speaker 1: on the boys teacher, that when when they did uh, 707 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:34,280 Speaker 1: testing in Jeremy's mouth and would have expected to find ejaculate, 708 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,640 Speaker 1: and when they tested the contents of Jeremy's stomach that 709 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,960 Speaker 1: was not found. Interesting. So, Joe Scott Morgan, we have 710 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 1: him stating exactly what he did, and you've got the 711 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,720 Speaker 1: boy lying on the bed and all the other facts 712 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,920 Speaker 1: that he stated in his confession are corroborated by the 713 00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 1: physical evidence. There is the child's teach shirt covered in 714 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 1: his ejaculate. Um, I get the sense that we're now 715 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:11,600 Speaker 1: splitting hairs as to whether he ejaculated in his mouth 716 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 1: or not. Just Scott, can you help me out forensically? 717 00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,200 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't necessarily know that that there would 718 00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:23,759 Speaker 1: be ejaculate uh readily visible or are detectable in the 719 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,880 Speaker 1: child's mouth. But what we do know is that, uh, 720 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,719 Speaker 1: I know it wouldn't be detectable in his stomach. Yeah, 721 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:36,080 Speaker 1: that would. But keep what was alluded to in the 722 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,200 Speaker 1: in the decision that you read, he went back. It 723 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,680 Speaker 1: says that he went back and actually facilitated the literature 724 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,960 Speaker 1: because he heard him moving. Now, he he might not 725 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:50,359 Speaker 1: have been able to necessarily ingest in what we would 726 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,879 Speaker 1: normally think. But yeah, I mean you would think that 727 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,799 Speaker 1: in a manner which we would normally think. But he 728 00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,239 Speaker 1: he was still alive for that period of tom and end. 729 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:02,360 Speaker 1: But what we do know is that there was ejaculate 730 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,400 Speaker 1: that was tied back to this person on the shirt. 731 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,200 Speaker 1: And this is this is an example of things that 732 00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 1: I've seen in the past, particularly with individuals that are 733 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:17,840 Speaker 1: basically necrophiles, after they've taken someone's life. In serial cases 734 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,840 Speaker 1: I've been involved in, they they long to have a 735 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,879 Speaker 1: control over an individual and then to stand over them 736 00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:28,720 Speaker 1: and uh and masturbate over bodies. And this is something 737 00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:30,640 Speaker 1: that you can see in the literature over and over 738 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,440 Speaker 1: and over again. It is kind of a splitting hair's 739 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:36,960 Speaker 1: issue here. What we do know is that there was 740 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,319 Speaker 1: some type of sexual contact. The interesting thing though, is 741 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 1: was it anti mortem or prior post mortem? I have 742 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:50,160 Speaker 1: a question, just curious, Alexandra, why does it matter if 743 00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:54,719 Speaker 1: he ejaculated in the boy's mouth or not. You know, 744 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,160 Speaker 1: it's important to note that Laura A. Gillary believes her 745 00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:02,040 Speaker 1: son was not molested. Why Why is that important? Because 746 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,480 Speaker 1: the facts really speak for themselves, don't they. You know, then, 747 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:07,320 Speaker 1: and then I think we wouldn't have had three trials. 748 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,400 Speaker 1: But the spot of ejaculate that we've talked about was 749 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,640 Speaker 1: actually on the back of his shirt, right, so if 750 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:15,640 Speaker 1: he were lying on his back. I mean, one of 751 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:17,799 Speaker 1: the things that was interesting about this case to me 752 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:20,960 Speaker 1: is just that the facts can appear to be so simple, 753 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:23,720 Speaker 1: and yet we have three trials and we never quite 754 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:25,640 Speaker 1: nailed down what happened. And I think one of the 755 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,720 Speaker 1: reasons that it is so important is because it goes 756 00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:32,160 Speaker 1: to sometimes this unknowability of the past. You know, I 757 00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 1: saw this in my own life, that there were facts 758 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:37,799 Speaker 1: and the abuse that were very very clear, and then 759 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,600 Speaker 1: there were things that my body would hold or that 760 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:44,279 Speaker 1: lived his memories inside me that I would never quite understand. 761 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,319 Speaker 1: And I think it goes to what we're doing in 762 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:49,640 Speaker 1: some ways when we decide whether someone is going to 763 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:51,719 Speaker 1: live or die in the death penalty case, but also 764 00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,359 Speaker 1: what we're doing when we tell ourselves a story out 765 00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,440 Speaker 1: of our own lives and try to make peace with 766 00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,800 Speaker 1: the to some extent, the irreconcilable, our annewable past, is 767 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:03,680 Speaker 1: that we try to figure out how to make sense. 768 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:08,960 Speaker 1: Dr Chloe Carmichael joining us along with Alexandria Marzano Lezanovitch. 769 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:14,040 Speaker 1: Dr Chloe Alexandra brought up guys with me is Dr 770 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:21,400 Speaker 1: Chloe carmichael website, Anxiety tools dot com, Anxiety tools dot com. 771 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:28,800 Speaker 1: Dr Chloe, Um, Alexandria is referring to the I guess 772 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:33,759 Speaker 1: dispute of facts, which I don't really see. That the 773 00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:38,960 Speaker 1: boy's dead, my strangulation with a defendant seman on his shirt, 774 00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,480 Speaker 1: and all the facts corroborate both the childless station and murder, 775 00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:49,319 Speaker 1: so I'm not quite sure I see the issue. But 776 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,480 Speaker 1: Dr Chloe, the fact that Alexandra has brought up the 777 00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:58,520 Speaker 1: child's mother, Laurelie refused to believe that her child was molested, 778 00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,959 Speaker 1: even with a known pedophile that say that he wanted 779 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,839 Speaker 1: to molest the boy since he first saw him, and 780 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:09,560 Speaker 1: that he molested him horribly as he died. Why would 781 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,719 Speaker 1: a mother not want to accept that fact about her 782 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,480 Speaker 1: child's murder, that he was also molested. Yes, Nancy, that's 783 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,960 Speaker 1: a that's a very it's a very painful question UM 784 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,040 Speaker 1: to confront, because of course Jeremy's mother has been through 785 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,960 Speaker 1: so much already and um having having lost her son, 786 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:29,799 Speaker 1: and on a primal level, Um, even though obviously it's 787 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,520 Speaker 1: not her fault, there's a part of her that may 788 00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:36,080 Speaker 1: feel as if she failed to protect her son, and 789 00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:38,920 Speaker 1: so the more gruesome and the more horrible that her 790 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:43,719 Speaker 1: son's death was, the more guilty and painful that she 791 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,279 Speaker 1: might feel inside. So it's possible that there's just a 792 00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,080 Speaker 1: limit to how much she can understand and grasp here, 793 00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:54,640 Speaker 1: and sometimes the mind just kind of shuts off at 794 00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:57,600 Speaker 1: a certain point, and that might actually be the breaking 795 00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:03,640 Speaker 1: point here. Everyone with me. Alexandria Marizano Lesnevich, author of 796 00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:08,320 Speaker 1: an incredible book, The Fact of a Body, a Murder 797 00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:12,399 Speaker 1: and a Memoir. Dr Chloe Carmichael joining me, psychologist out 798 00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:17,920 Speaker 1: of Manhattan, her website Anxiety tools dot Com, forensics expert, 799 00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:22,400 Speaker 1: Professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott Morgan 800 00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:27,520 Speaker 1: and Alan Duke joining us from l A. Alexandria, Where 801 00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,960 Speaker 1: does the case stand now? What was the resolution in 802 00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,920 Speaker 1: the murder case of Ricky Langley? He is serving a 803 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,400 Speaker 1: life sentence and he will always be serving a life sentence. 804 00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:40,160 Speaker 1: He will be in prison until he does so. At 805 00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:43,560 Speaker 1: the end of the day, Ricky Langley has escaped the 806 00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:48,560 Speaker 1: death penalty, and seemingly everyone goes about their business except 807 00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:53,880 Speaker 1: Alexandria Marzano Wesnovich and her incredible book The Fact of 808 00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,200 Speaker 1: a Body, A Murder and a Memoir. Thank you everyone. 809 00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:01,000 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off goodbye friend,