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Speaker 1: The Michael Barry Shoe. Captain Lovell, I would first like

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Speaker 1: to talk about Apollo thirteen and everything related to that,

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Speaker 1: and then from there, I'd like to get into your background,

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Speaker 1: your childhood, your life leading up to that, and your

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Speaker 1: professional and personal life since then. So if we could

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Speaker 1: start with Apollo thirteen, here we are fifty years later,

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Speaker 1: and how would you have expected before that mission took off?

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Speaker 1: How would you have expected that it would be remembered

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Speaker 1: by history.

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Speaker 2: Only the way all the other flights that were successful

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Speaker 2: would have been displayed by this time. Of course, Polo

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Speaker 2: one that I mean that landed on the moon, Paul Leven,

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Speaker 2: I should say, was very instrumental. But you know how

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Speaker 2: many people remember Pablo fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, and seventeen as

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Speaker 2: other than successful landings on the moon.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting, and I guess we can go straight

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Speaker 1: to that. You know, it's it's been referred to as

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Speaker 1: the successful failure man over Machine, and many people have

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Speaker 1: suggested that the fact that there were so many problems

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Speaker 1: and that it was put at risk really showed America, Hey,

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Speaker 1: this isn't this isn't a routine thing. This is really dangerous.

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Speaker 1: So it's almost as if in some ways, whether it

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Speaker 1: was God's destiny or his choice or or luck, it

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Speaker 1: was it is as if it was good that this happened. Well,

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Speaker 1: it was.

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Speaker 2: Good in some respects because by the time of thirteen

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Speaker 2: the flew this was the fifth Apollo flight to the Moon,

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Speaker 2: and naturally people started to get complacent about our pollow program.

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Speaker 2: We had a successfully landed on Apollo eleven. We repeated

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Speaker 2: that on Apollo twelve, follow thirteen was going to make

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Speaker 2: a landing to different in place. But to the average

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Speaker 2: person that that wasn't not significant. They didn't realize how

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Speaker 2: we planned to do our exploration. So when the explosion occurred,

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Speaker 2: suddenly the people of the US and and of course

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Speaker 2: of the Earth had a new interest in our space program. Hey,

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Speaker 2: something is wrong, and can NASA get these guys back?

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Speaker 2: Is or what's happening? And so drove their attention the

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Speaker 2: fact that if there's good leadership and teamwork and an initiative,

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Speaker 2: see if that can happen to recover thirteen.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to play the audio of your transmission telling

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Speaker 1: Houston that we've had a problem, and then have you

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Speaker 1: respond go ahead.

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Speaker 2: Of them, Okay, we had a problem here fine, man,

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Speaker 2: go ahead. We've had a hardware race. I don't know

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Speaker 2: what it was. You've got to be both footable. You

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Speaker 2: see an ac bus under vault there guiding or eCOM Negatively,

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Speaker 2: I believe the crew reported it, we gotta be undervolt

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Speaker 2: We may have had an inspiantation.

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Speaker 1: Pron fin er. What's going through your mind at that point?

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Speaker 2: Well, essentially what went through my mind at that particular

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Speaker 2: time was what happened? What is really going wrong? And

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Speaker 2: how does that affect the flight?

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Speaker 1: What was your worst fear at that moment.

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Speaker 2: I didn't have a worse fear that this was a

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Speaker 2: disastrous I had a fear that how can we recover

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Speaker 2: from this particular problem? Is it serious or not? And

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Speaker 2: it takes a little time for the you know, the

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Speaker 2: brain to function and to figure out what we're going

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Speaker 2: And of course it's has that occurred. Then I saw

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Speaker 2: that we lost two out of two out of the

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Speaker 2: three fuel cells, which meant that most of electricity was

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Speaker 2: going to be gone. And then, of course, as time

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Speaker 2: went on, as we looked around to find out what

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Speaker 2: the situation was, and I examined the instrument panel and

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Speaker 2: I finally ambered my way over to the window, and

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Speaker 2: when I looked out the window and saw gas is

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Speaker 2: gas escaping at a highrate of speed from the room

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Speaker 2: of my spacecraft. And then going back and look at

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Speaker 2: the instrument panel and seeing that the gages on my

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Speaker 2: two oxygen tanks one was empty and one I could

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Speaker 2: see the needles had to go down. Then the thoughts

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Speaker 2: on my brain said, hey, this is really really serious.

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Speaker 2: The landing is off and can we get home because

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Speaker 2: the command module is now dying.

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Speaker 1: So in the movie, there's sort of two competing emotions

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Speaker 1: as Tom Hanks portrays you, and one of them is

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Speaker 1: are we going to get home alive to see our

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Speaker 1: families again? And the other is we're not going to

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Speaker 1: get to walk on the moon? Which of those was

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Speaker 1: of those two was more powerful at that moment to you?

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Speaker 2: Actually, the first one was more powerful. Walking on the moon,

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Speaker 2: of course, was my ambition and everything like that, But

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Speaker 2: then what is the seriousness of trying to get back

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Speaker 2: home again? And can we And so the recovery was

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Speaker 2: much more important to me than not walking on the moon.

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Speaker 1: I watched the movie with my boys who are thirteen

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Speaker 1: and fourteen, and my wife this weekend, and my younger

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Speaker 1: son said, what's the big deal? You know, they're not

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Speaker 1: going to go to the moon. They need to be

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Speaker 1: worried about coming back. And I tried to explain the

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Speaker 1: drive for an astronaut to get out, walk on the moon,

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Speaker 1: you know, conquer this frontier, learn, share knowledge, explore is

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Speaker 1: something the average person doesn't have. Is that fair to say?

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Speaker 2: Well? Actually, yeah, that was my drive ever since I

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Speaker 2: got in the program, because even long before that I

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Speaker 2: was interested in space flights and things of this nature.

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Speaker 2: And so you know, this was my fourth flight, my

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Speaker 2: second time to the moon, and of course it was

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Speaker 2: a big, big disappointment when the explosion occurred, and not

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Speaker 2: knowing really what our future was going to be.

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Speaker 1: What was the moment Captain Lovell, upon your return that

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Speaker 1: you realized, you know what, we may just make it

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Speaker 1: out of here.

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Speaker 2: Well, as we kept on doing various things and in

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Speaker 2: sacrifice or getting over one crisis after another, slowly our

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Speaker 2: chances of getting home appeared to be greater and greater.

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Speaker 2: And this was our major concern right now, can we

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Speaker 2: salvage what we have? Can't we get back home? And

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Speaker 2: they not landing on the moon had left my memory.

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Speaker 1: So when you splash down and you know, you see

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Speaker 1: that they're there to recover you. What's going through your

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Speaker 1: mind at that point, well.

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Speaker 2: A great sense of relief. I mean I looked at

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Speaker 2: my two companions and I said, I think we've made it.

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Speaker 2: And of course we didn't think that way until actually

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Speaker 2: the spacecraft hit the water, and didn't continue to think

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Speaker 2: and because we were worried about the heat shield all

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Speaker 2: the time on the final flight through the atmosphere.

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Speaker 1: Can you explain that heat shield because I've tried to

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Speaker 1: understand it, and there's lots of reference to that for

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Speaker 1: the average non scientist like me. What is that?

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Speaker 2: Well, the heat heil is merely a material that is

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Speaker 2: in the rare end of the spacecraft, the blunt end

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Speaker 2: of the end that goes that is the hits the atmosphere,

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Speaker 2: and it is so designed that it flakes off the atmosphere,

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Speaker 2: of course, is at a high rate of speed, is

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Speaker 2: a tremendous heat build up, and the heat shield slowly

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Speaker 2: burns off and and of course it's such thickness that

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Speaker 2: as it goes through the atmosphere, we just burned the

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Speaker 2: top off. He gets thinner and thinner. It's a better

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Speaker 2: way than metal because metal would just heat up, and

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Speaker 2: then the heat would transfer into the TiAl of the spacecraft,

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Speaker 2: which you couldn't want. But heat shield prevents the heat

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Speaker 2: from going into the spacecraft because it merely flakes off

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Speaker 2: piece by piece as it goes through the atmosphere.

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Speaker 1: President Nixon said in his remarks, I guess upon your

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Speaker 1: return when they came to Hawaii, he said that when

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Speaker 1: he spoke to you, you said I'm sorry, and he said,

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Speaker 1: don't you say that, because what you've done is heroic

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Speaker 1: and admirable. Did you feel did you feel in some

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Speaker 1: sense that you had failed and you needed to say that,

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Speaker 1: or was that just what's going through your mind when

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Speaker 1: you speak to the president?

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Speaker 2: Well, our job was to land on the moon, and

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Speaker 2: we didn't do it. Consequently, as a military guy, I

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Speaker 2: had a report to the commander in chief and said,

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Speaker 2: we tried, we failed, and I was very happy when

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Speaker 2: the President said, don't worry. You have succeeded in other ways.

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Speaker 1: Well, and he says, yes exactly. And I think, looking back,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't you agree that renewed a passion and an interest

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Speaker 1: among Americans and humanity for space that has carried us

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Speaker 1: to today.

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Speaker 2: That's true. I think that flight at thirteen at that

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Speaker 2: particular time, was in some respects very important. Landing on

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Speaker 2: the moon, of course, was important, at least for me.

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Speaker 2: But what it didn't do was the fact that it

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Speaker 2: regenerated the interest of now people all over the world.

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Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, on exploration, I get letters

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Speaker 2: even today from people who followed those programs through and

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Speaker 2: thirteen generated their interest to do other things that like

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Speaker 2: in engineering or science and things of this nature.

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Speaker 1: The president said. President Nixon said in his speech that

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Speaker 1: day that this was the most exciting day of his

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Speaker 1: life meeting you guys, you know, receiving you that you

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Speaker 1: were alive, that you had survived, and that it was

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Speaker 1: even more important to him than the day he was

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Speaker 1: elected president. It's pretty powerful.

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Speaker 2: Well, it was very very powerful. I think he mentioned

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Speaker 2: that really just at the time that we all met, so,

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Speaker 2: I mean, and I appreciated his comments.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about being a father and having to split

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Speaker 1: your loyalties and having to make the sacrifice of leaving

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Speaker 1: the family, as you know you had to do many

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Speaker 1: times to train and things like that, and leaving the

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Speaker 1: family knowing of the dangers. How hard was that?

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Speaker 2: Well, that game, naturally you know, I was a military

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Speaker 2: officer and during the war PIDs, you know, people left

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Speaker 2: their families for some period of time. So what I

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Speaker 2: did was to talk to the family that here was

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Speaker 2: my job. But when you really look at it, I

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Speaker 2: was in my four flights. I had only been gone

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Speaker 2: a little while. I think Gemany seven. I was going

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Speaker 2: for what two weeks a week something like that. But

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Speaker 2: so it was something that the being a military family

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Speaker 2: understood what their father was going to do.

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Speaker 1: Your son, Jeff, told me a story Captain Lovell that

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Speaker 1: you were at the press conference and afterward and you

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Speaker 1: were asked if you would ever go back to space,

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Speaker 1: and you look like you were about to say yes,

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Speaker 1: and Marilyn, your bride, gave the thumbs down from the crowd.

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Speaker 2: Is that true truth? I We were a press conference

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Speaker 2: after about thirteen and one of the reporters asked, you know,

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Speaker 2: because you didn't make it, and I understand that they

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Speaker 2: would give you another chance. I said, are you going

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Speaker 2: to ask for another chance to go to the road?

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Speaker 2: And before I could take and the massive management, of course,

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Speaker 2: was just behind me, this would be a good idea

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Speaker 2: to try to get another flight, And then I looked

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Speaker 2: out in the audience, and there was a hand that

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Speaker 2: went up with a thumb down and it was my wife,

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Speaker 2: and I said, no, I think this is my last flight.

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Speaker 1: I asked your son Jeff to describe Marilyn, your bride,

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Speaker 1: and he said, she's the rock of the family. You know,

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Speaker 1: while he's doing all these difficult things, she has to

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Speaker 1: make sure the bills are getting paid, that we're leaving,

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Speaker 1: that we're going to school. And he said, the thing

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Speaker 1: I'm most proud of is that we had a normal

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Speaker 1: life despite the fact that our dad did not have

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Speaker 1: a normal job.

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Speaker 2: And I'm happy for that too, because you know, you

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Speaker 2: need a family that will put we'll support you whatever

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Speaker 2: type of job you're doing, and if the job requires

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Speaker 2: long periods of being away. And yet the people understood why,

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Speaker 2: and the kids all apply themselves, helping their mother get

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Speaker 2: things through and going to school and things like that

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Speaker 2: while I was, you know, spent a lot of time training.

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Speaker 2: Then that's the kind of family to have.

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Speaker 1: So you become nationally famous as Commander Jim Lovell after this,

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Speaker 1: and you stay on and don't retire until now eighteen

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Speaker 1: seventy three. How did you spend your time from when

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Speaker 1: you returned until you left NASA and the Navy in

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Speaker 1: seventy three.

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Speaker 2: Well, NASA by that time, of course, I was now

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Speaker 2: working to the future of NASA, which was the program

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Speaker 2: of the warring well you know the Well you're talking

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Speaker 2: to somebody who's eighty years old. But it was the

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Speaker 2: Shuttle program, that's right, the Shuttle program. And I was

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Speaker 2: involved in designing the instraram panels and all that for

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Speaker 2: the Shuttle. During that period of time.

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Speaker 1: I have heard that the Navy wanted you to stay

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Speaker 1: on and become an admiral.

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Speaker 2: Well, I worked at it very closely, and the Navy

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Speaker 2: was more than willing to take me back. Yeah, of

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Speaker 2: course I never left the ate with the in the

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Speaker 2: space program. It is only essentially short duty for me,

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Speaker 2: and they wanted me to come back in. They'd be

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Speaker 2: more than happy to do, you know, give me a

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Speaker 2: good assignment. But I had made a mistake. Also after

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Speaker 2: that last night, I went to Harvard the management program,

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Speaker 2: and I spent a year training in management for a year,

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Speaker 2: and suddenly dawned on me that you know, if I

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Speaker 2: stayed in the Navy and I came up for promotion

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Speaker 2: along with other people that were in the Navy, and

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Speaker 2: they would look at the guys that were short see

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Speaker 2: duty and short duty and involved in wars and things

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Speaker 2: like that, or would they look at me that had

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Speaker 2: spent his time in the space program? Who would I select?

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Speaker 2: And I said, no, they wouldn't slick me, because you know,

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Speaker 2: those other people have a lot more training on what

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Speaker 2: the Navy's supposed to be doing. And consequently, and suddenly

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Speaker 2: I decided that perhaps, you know, retiring at the time

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Speaker 2: I did, and kind of going into the private site,

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Speaker 2: there was the way to go.

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Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by what I've learned Captain Lovell, about how

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Speaker 1: you got into the Naval Academy, if we could take

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Speaker 1: that step by step as I understand it, the Navy

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Speaker 1: came to your high school and gave a speech about

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Speaker 1: wanting naval aviators. So you started at school in Wisconsin.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk about that?

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Speaker 2: Well, my father died when I was young. My mother

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Speaker 2: was a secretary. We didn't have any money and close

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Speaker 2: to graduating from high school. Before that, I applied from

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Speaker 2: the Naval Academy because my uncle who was a Naval

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Speaker 2: Academy graduate, and I thought I could follow him, and

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Speaker 2: you get sort of a free education at least, and

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Speaker 2: what I applied for it I came out to be

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Speaker 2: third holder. That was meant that there was no way

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Speaker 2: I was going to go. Well, it was close to

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Speaker 2: graduation when the Navy had a program called the Holloway

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Speaker 2: Program because the Navy found itself short of naval aviators

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Speaker 2: after World War Two and suddenly they needed aviators. So

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Speaker 2: they thought this program would take high school graduates who

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Speaker 2: wanted to go into the Navy. They would give them

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Speaker 2: two years of college, set them down to flight training,

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Speaker 2: get their wings, and then spend about six months or

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Speaker 2: a year out with the Navy and a squadron, and

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Speaker 2: then send them back to their last two years of college.

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Speaker 2: So consequently the program would give a person of a

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Speaker 2: college education and also a job at permanent job in

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Speaker 2: the Navy as a naval aviator. It was a great program.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't believe when I found out about it. I

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Speaker 2: applied immediately, was accepted, and then I was also a

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Speaker 2: school of your choice. So I picked Wisconsin, the University

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Speaker 2: of Wisconsin, since I was in Milwaukee, and I applied

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Speaker 2: to a mechanical engineering course because you had to take

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Speaker 2: something in science or engineering. I went there for two years,

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Speaker 2: and the Navy didn't set me down Pensacola for my

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Speaker 2: begin flight training. But while I was at the University

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Speaker 2: of Wisconsin, my mother called up and said, look at

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Speaker 2: some we don't know how long these programs last. It

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Speaker 2: might turn out that the Navy suddenly gets enough naval

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Speaker 2: aviators and they just shut down the program. Why don't

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Speaker 2: you try one more time for the Naval Academy. Oh

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Speaker 2: I did. While I was at Wisconsin. I tried one

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Speaker 2: more time. This time the answer came back that I

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Speaker 2: was first all of it. And when I got that,

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Speaker 2: I realized that my chances were almost zero. So I

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Speaker 2: actually went down to the Pensacola to start of aviation,

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Speaker 2: and the first thing we did was ground school. Halfway

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Speaker 2: through ground school, I got a word from the Navy

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Speaker 2: department that if I was still interested in going to

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Speaker 2: the Naval Academy, if we go up to Annapolis as

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Speaker 2: soon as possible. While I was in a quandary because

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Speaker 2: I've already had two years of college, I already was

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Speaker 2: in that program that I always wanted to be. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: I'd have a job, I'd be a naval lavier. Why

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Speaker 2: would I want to go back to the Naval Academy

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Speaker 2: and start all over again. And so I was about

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Speaker 2: ready to say no when the commander of the Ground

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Speaker 2: School pulled me aside and he says, son, you want

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Speaker 2: to make Navy your career. And I said, yes, sir,

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Speaker 2: he said, and you want to get a full education, yes, sir,

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Speaker 2: and get yourself back to the Naval Academy and start

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Speaker 2: and right from scratch. And so that's what I did,

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Speaker 2: which was very very fortunate. I got my education, I

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Speaker 2: got back into aviation. I went through aviation, then went

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Speaker 2: into test pilot training and became a test pilot. About

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Speaker 2: that time, NASA needed test pilots for the Mercury program,

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Speaker 2: and that whole thing started there.

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Speaker 1: Now, as I understand it, because you were already a midshipman.

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Speaker 1: You showed up at the Naval Academy in a midshipman's

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Speaker 1: uniform and they didn't know what to make of this.

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Speaker 2: That's right. We were called Aviation midship and the Holloway Program,

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Speaker 2: and of course that's the un clothes I had. I

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Speaker 2: went right from Petsacola right to Annapolis. I walked in

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Speaker 2: and said reporting and I said, what are you? I said,

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Speaker 2: I'm an aviation midshipman. I said, no, all the midshipmen

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Speaker 2: are here at Annapolis, and they were quite worried. So

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Speaker 2: they called up few purs and went on these and

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Speaker 2: so briefers had to tell them about the aviation program,

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Speaker 2: the bit UH, and they called the Holloway program, And

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Speaker 2: so I had to.

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Speaker 1: Start all over. They decommissioned you. Did they decommission you

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Speaker 1: and start you all over?

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Speaker 2: That's right? Yes, I was an aviation midshipmen, and so

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Speaker 2: they swore me out as a big shimen as a

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Speaker 2: civilian again, and then the next day they swore me

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Speaker 2: back in as a bit shiven.

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Speaker 1: So, as I understand it, you go to flight training

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Speaker 1: that sends you the Naval Air Station in Corpus Christi

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Speaker 1: where you get your wings, THENTO Sunny Vale, and then

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Speaker 1: I guess you go to the US Shangri La in

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Speaker 1: the Sea of Japan. Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Last? Right? When I got my wings, I reported to

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Speaker 2: a squadron called VC or. Actually this squadron was designed

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Speaker 2: to train UH night fighter pilots because during the Wars

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Speaker 2: they fought out that the aircraft carriers now needed nightfly

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Speaker 2: which in the during World War Two they were basically

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Speaker 2: weapons for day work. And so they developed the knife

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Speaker 2: fighter teams about five officers, four airplanes and about thirty

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Speaker 2: enlisted and would send them out on ships. And I

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Speaker 2: got into a team Jig. I got trained flamed airplanes,

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Speaker 2: the Panchees, and the reported on on the Shangla and

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Speaker 2: made a cruise out to the far west and in

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Speaker 2: the shang Shangalan.

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Speaker 1: And you were first in your class of test pilots.

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Speaker 2: Yes, after I had did that c duty and then

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Speaker 2: I applied for test pilot work and went to Peticol

359
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Speaker 2: or went to pack Protection River and went through school,

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Speaker 2: got to be number one, and then spent about three

361
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Speaker 2: was there basically doing the work of the F four Phantom,

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Speaker 2: which was the new airplane coming up at that time.

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Speaker 1: And as I understand that you were known, your reputation

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Speaker 1: was as an all night, all weather fighter pilot, so

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Speaker 1: you could fly under any conditions and that's what made

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Speaker 1: you special.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's how I was training back and when I

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Speaker 2: was at the squadron out of the west, and which

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Speaker 2: that was quite commitised. The night flan at night was

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Speaker 2: just starting and so we were the first people to

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Speaker 2: work it out and work out the problems that were

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Speaker 2: required for a night.

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Speaker 1: Flan and then you were invited to the Pentagon to

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Speaker 1: talk about this new space program.

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Speaker 2: Well, while I was at the Pass River as a

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Speaker 2: test pilot, that was the time when NASA suddenly started

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Speaker 2: to think about putting somebody in space. And this was

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Speaker 2: called the Mercury Program. And consequently they asked the Air

379
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 2: Force and the Navy to give them candidates. They had

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00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 2: acquirements that basically were test pilots, and there were other

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00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 2: requirements too. You had to have an insuring degree in

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Speaker 2: things of this nature. And the military, the Air Force

383
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Speaker 2: and the Navy came up with thirty two applicants and

384
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Speaker 2: I was one of them. And so in nineteen fifty

385
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Speaker 2: eight I went out to Albuquerque, the hospital out there

386
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Speaker 2: that trained or that was good with aviation and things

387
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Speaker 2: of this nature, and I reported in with people like

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Speaker 2: Walli Charra and Al Shepherd and to do these physicals

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Speaker 2: and other the thirty two people that had their physical

390
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Speaker 2: events time, I was the hootie guy to float and

391
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Speaker 2: then of course they picked the seven guys that original

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Speaker 2: seven out of the other thirty one.

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Speaker 1: So your life seems to be marked by adversity that

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Speaker 1: you just keep overcoming. You didn't get in the Naval Academy.

395
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Speaker 1: You stuck to it. You didn't get in that first

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Speaker 1: group of the original seven astronauts. You stick to it

397
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Speaker 1: that you have problems on Apollo thirteen. You stick. I mean,

398
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Speaker 1: I know you gave a lot of speeches over the years,

399
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Speaker 1: but I'm assuming perseverance had to be top of the

400
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Speaker 1: list of things you can tell people about.

401
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Speaker 2: Well, that's right, don't they see? Try and try again.

402
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Speaker 2: And I've told that to a lot of young kids

403
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Speaker 2: over the years.

404
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Speaker 1: So in about nineteen sixty two, after that first crop

405
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Speaker 1: of seven, you do try again, and you join the

406
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Speaker 1: second group along with Neil Armstrong, and that's when you

407
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Speaker 1: moved to Clear Lake.

408
00:25:54,160 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 2: Well, that's right. What happened was I was I didn't

409
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 2: tell the military that I had flogged the physical, which

410
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 2: was not really that bad. I just had what was

411
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 2: known as a high biller Reuben in my bloodstream, so

412
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 2: it didn't affect my aviation or anything like that. So

413
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 2: I didn't bother to tell the Navy. You know, the

414
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 2: Navy just thought that I wasn't selected with the original seven,

415
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 2: and consequently, some years later NASA needed more people. They

416
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: were looking now not just at the Mercury, but other

417
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 2: programs coming up, and they were thinking about, you know,

418
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 2: actually going to the Moon. And so they called me

419
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 2: up again and said, listen, we didn't make it the

420
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Speaker 2: first time, when she liked to try again, and I

421
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 2: said sure, And so this time I went to actually

422
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Speaker 2: San Antonio. I was examined by the Air Force people

423
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 2: and they thought I was just fine, and so I

424
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Speaker 2: actually got into the second program.

425
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Speaker 1: The program when you moved to Clear Lake. You know,

426
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Speaker 1: I've heard a lot about from these astronaut families, and

427
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 1: I guess y'all lived in Timber Cove in Taylor Lake

428
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: Village until nineteen eighty. And all I hear about is

429
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 1: these NASA families and how close knit they were, and

430
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 1: how they partied together, and they just loved each other

431
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 1: in close friendships. And even to this day there's plaques

432
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 1: on the houses where they lived talk about that if

433
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: you will.

434
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 2: Well, well, I mean we moved into I got down

435
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 2: to the Houston, and when I first arrived, I stayed

436
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 2: at the Bachelor Offices quarters at Ellington Field. And then

437
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 2: when my wife came down, we started to look for

438
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 2: someplace to live and we runted a house for a while,

439
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 2: and then I started to look at timber Cove and

440
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 2: we liked what we saw there, and we started to

441
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 2: build a house there in timber Cove, which we were

442
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 2: there for many years, I guess all ever since, not

443
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 2: quite all the time until I moved into into Houston directly.

444
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it strikes me that there is a culture kind

445
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: of like the fraternity of professional football players or you know,

446
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,160
Speaker 1: the military when when they're in the field in war,

447
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: that there is this this culture of astronauts, especially at

448
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 1: that time, and I think the movie captured that, which

449
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 1: of course is based on your book. How important was

450
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: that I was told the neighborhood swimming pool there was

451
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: in the shape of the Mercury capsule. That's pretty cool.

452
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: Yes, Well, it turned out the timber Cove and that's

453
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 2: around an area was quite a homestead for a lot

454
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 2: of the astronauts, and we have you know, Pete Conrad

455
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 2: just around the corner. Al Shepherd I lived on the canal,

456
00:28:52,920 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 2: and al and John Glenn and and and lived up

457
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: the way. Al Shepherds lived over the side, and so

458
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 2: it was Gus Grisson was there too, and so it

459
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 2: was sort of a gathering place and just a small community.

460
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 2: And actually you have to remember that this was just

461
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 2: all beginning. I mean it was just bare ground before that.

462
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 2: And when I got to Houston, the Spacecraft Center wasn't

463
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 2: built yet. It was just all farmland, and so things

464
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 2: actually grew up as I grew up in that area.

465
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: I want to ask you, Captain Lovell, about some of

466
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: the titans of the space industry, the names that are

467
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: mentioned along with yours American heroes, and just ask you

468
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: to share for a moment your thoughts when you hear

469
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: that name. You were Neil Armstrong's back up on Apollo eleven.

470
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: When I say the name Neil Armstrong, what comes to mine?

471
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 2: Well, he was in the second group of vashon Us

472
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,479
Speaker 2: along with me, and he was the only civilian as

473
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 2: a matter of fact, that that particular time he worked

474
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 2: for NASA, and the hearst of us thought, oh, we're

475
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 2: in trouble here. But no, he is a great guy,

476
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 2: well rounded, well educated. Actually he was. Even though we

477
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 2: all wanted to go to be first on the Moon,

478
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 2: it turned out that having him being the first on

479
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 2: the moon was was really the right time as a

480
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 2: way to go.

481
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: I read that you were suggested for that original crew,

482
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: and that while you were considered one of the three strongest,

483
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: he said, it wouldn't be fair to you because you're

484
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: a commander and you should get to command your own crew.

485
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: That seemed like a pretty big compliment.

486
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 2: It was, and I forever want to thank Neil for that.

487
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 2: He was looking out the fact that that as a

488
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 2: captain of then and Wipe, I had my own, you know, ship,

489
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 2: and so he saw that and that's what he mentioned anestha.

490
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,959
Speaker 1: So there's a picture of four of you all that

491
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: were that was taken in tuxedos for the fiftieth anniversary

492
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: of Apollo. I guess it was. And Buzz Aldrin is

493
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: wearing this wacky tuxedo, which strikes me that of all

494
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 1: the astronauts, he's kind of the eccentric, quirky one.

495
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 2: Well, as you know throughout the years, Buzz is an

496
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 2: individual on his own his background, and I think that

497
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 2: you know, of course, there was some question that the

498
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: time Apollow eleven was going to go up, who would

499
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 2: be the first to sip down from the ladder on

500
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 2: the moon, And naturally the commander was going to be

501
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 2: the first, but he always had some misgivings about that.

502
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: I read that it was you and Buzz Aldrin who

503
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: suggested swimming pools to learn weightlessness, and that that was

504
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: a big part of the advancement in the program.

505
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:17,959
Speaker 2: Well, that's my second flight, Powell or no. Gemity twelve.

506
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,959
Speaker 2: This was the last of the Gemini series. I was

507
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 2: this is my second flight, and I was the commander

508
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 2: and Buzz was with me on Gemity twelve. Now, the

509
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 2: purpose of Gemity twelve was to see if we could

510
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 2: prove some of the problems that we had with working

511
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 2: outside the spacecraft Jemany's nine, ten eleven. As a matter

512
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 2: of fact, all tried to as somebody work out the

513
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 2: spacecraft outside of the spacecraft and do some work. But

514
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 2: every time someone would leave the interior of the spacecraft

515
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 2: and start working around and they would get near the

516
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 2: space trip after I touch it, the spacecraft would kind

517
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 2: of push them away. This was the third law of motion.

518
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 2: For every action, there's an opposite and equal reaction, and

519
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 2: we didn't understand that at first. So it was very

520
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 2: difficult because you know, as soon as you got near

521
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 2: to the spacecraft it touched it, it would you know, said,

522
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 2: actually give you a reversal. And so what we did

523
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 2: for twelve to train was to with a NASA rented

524
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 2: a swimming pool in Baltimore. We sell a part of

525
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 2: the spacecraft, a monk up of the spacecraft in the water,

526
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 2: and then we had Buzz in a space suit and

527
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 2: I would sit on the edge of the swimming pool.

528
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 2: He would go down in the water, and then we

529
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 2: had various footholes and the hand holes, and he would

530
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 2: try them out to see how well he could work

531
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 2: in the water, which would be sort of neutral buoyancy,

532
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 2: the best thing we could get to zero gravity, and

533
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 2: to see if he could work out the techniques to

534
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: work outside the spacecraft. This was very successful and we

535
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 2: applied that that on Jemary twelve. I think they spent

536
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: some a couple of hours outside the spacecraft doing that work.

537
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 2: If you go down now to JSC, do you look

538
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 2: at some of the big water tanks they have down

539
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 2: there that has been proved very successful all the way

540
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 2: through shovel programs and everything else.

541
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: Talk about John Glenn if you would Captain lovell.

542
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 2: Well. John of course was the epidone of astronauts and spaceflights.

543
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 2: He of course was the first one to go up

544
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 2: and actually you remade I think what orbit came back

545
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 2: it down again. But he applied himself and then you know, uh,

546
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 2: he still was involved in the program, and he was

547
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 2: getting older, but by that time we had the Shuttle,

548
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 2: and he made another flight in the Shuttle as an

549
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 2: older astronaut to see that this, you know, wasn't the

550
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: program wasn't just to apply to young guys, that only

551
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 2: guys could do it too.

552
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 1: How about Alan Shepherd.

553
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 2: Shepherd was an old baby and he was very much

554
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 2: interested I he had he had an ear problem for

555
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 2: some time after his very first flight, uh, which was

556
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 2: you know just what Orden, I think, at the very

557
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 2: first flight of all of us. He always wanted to

558
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 2: go back, but he was grounded. Uh. Finally he was.

559
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 2: He had an operation that got him to be okay

560
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 2: again for flight. And then I was a schedule for

561
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 2: Apollo fourteen, and suddenly they gave him Apollo or he

562
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 2: was scheduled for Apollo thirteen, I should say, and then

563
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 2: they gave him and I had fourteen, and then they

564
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 2: gave him fourteen and said, Jim, why don't you take thirteen?

565
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 2: I give Allan some more time to who train?

566
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: How about Kim Manningly, there's a scene in the movie.

567
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 1: And obviously that's based on your book on how difficult

568
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: it was not to bring him up for fear that

569
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: he had rebella or measles, and then of course he

570
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: never never got it. It's clear that that was a

571
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 1: tough decision for you.

572
00:36:54,920 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 2: It was a very tough decision. Manly was the astut astronauts.

573
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 2: He was bachelor at that time, had all the time

574
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 2: in the world to train. You know, he would use

575
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: the simulators in nighttime when the rest of us married

576
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 2: would go home, and so he would and he was

577
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 2: very conscientious about getting trained for that job. And I

578
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 2: couldn't believe it when the NASA said that, you know,

579
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 2: you've been exposed to the measles. Charlie Duke had the

580
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 2: measles and he was the backup, and so we were

581
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 2: all were near Charlie at that time. And then they

582
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 2: looked at our records and we both Fred Hayes and

583
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 2: I had the measles as kids, and so we were

584
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 2: sort of immune to them, and they had never had

585
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 2: the measles, and so they wanted to replace them. And

586
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 2: I argued with NASA to take him a better time

587
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 2: to have the beaseles than just orbiting the moon. He

588
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 2: wasn't going to land at all, and I felt that

589
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 2: I was perfectly happy to have him, and they didn't

590
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 2: take my advice and replaced Mattley with Jack. But he

591
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 2: was also all up ready to go, so we didn't

592
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 2: really worry too much.

593
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: So in the movie, Kevin Bacon, of course plays Jack Swagger,

594
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 1: and he's this guy that you know is kind of

595
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: a rookie and he's making a lot of mistakes and

596
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: he's not ready. But my understanding is that's not accurate.

597
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: He was a consummate professional and he was ready.

598
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Jack Swagger and I was actually the best

599
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 2: guy I could have for a substitute, because he was

600
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 2: involved in the development of the command module malfunction procedures,

601
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 2: and of course you couldn't ask for a better guy

602
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 2: to be next to you. All we had to do

603
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 2: was to train him with some of the things that

604
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 2: the command modules pilots did. Command Bolus was to dock

605
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 2: with the lunar module just after we started on our

606
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 2: way to the Moon, and he was going to be

607
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 2: the guy that was going to be by himself. Well,

608
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 2: Fred Hayes and I were on the lunar surface, so

609
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 2: I really didn't worry about Jack, even though you know

610
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 2: he only came aboard a week or so before the flight.

611
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 1: You mentioned the name Fred Hayes, and as I understand,

612
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: you have what you call Boom Day on April thirteenth.

613
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,399
Speaker 1: You and Fred Hayes check in on each other every

614
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: year to commemorate that day. Oh yeah, how does that

615
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 1: conversation go?

616
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 2: And I'm really sorry. You know, we're all involved with this.

617
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 2: The colnoriais you know problem. And here the fiftieth anniversary

618
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 2: had plans. I was going to go up to Huston,

619
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 2: Kansas to see my old spacecraft to say goodbye to him,

620
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 2: and then go down to to the Kennedy Space Center

621
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 2: and take my family down and Hayes would be down

622
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 2: there and the other people would be there, and we

623
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 2: celebrate the city's anniversary of Apollell thirteen. And all that

624
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 2: went by the boards with the virus.

625
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: Gene Krans, I'm told, keeps that white vest with the

626
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: Apollo thirteen patch, and considering everything he was involved with,

627
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,240
Speaker 1: this seems to have been kind of what he considers

628
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 1: his shining moment. What is your thought on gene Kranz.

629
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 2: Well, Kranz was very capable of all the flights, and

630
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 2: he participated. He was the chief and the control of

631
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 2: their Michigan control and did quite a job. And he

632
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,359
Speaker 2: had that he had where his wife started to make

633
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,399
Speaker 2: those light vest worms and for every flight he put

634
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 2: the pats of the flight on it, and it was

635
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 2: quite significant, I guess, I guess they became quite quite

636
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 2: valuable after a period of time. I think ones that

637
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 2: the Smithsonian, if I'm not mistaken.

638
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: Wow, So I guess you're only the second oldest American

639
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: astronaut alive, because you're two weeks younger than Frank Borman.

640
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: Talk about Frank Borman.

641
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:30,280
Speaker 2: Well, Frank and I of course were in Germany seven.

642
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 2: Now that was going to be a two week mission

643
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 2: to find out if man could live in zero gravity

644
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,320
Speaker 2: for two weeks or what would be the effects, because

645
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 2: about two weeks was the time for an Apollo flight

646
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 2: overall flight, and so we were, of course I'm wired

647
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 2: up to over their bodies so they could read blood

648
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 2: pressure and heart rate and things like that, and we

649
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: took off their two weeks and it was like two

650
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 2: weeks the bedroom and we both lasted that whole time. Uh,

651
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 2: an amazing thing. We had a good joke about it.

652
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 2: And later on after we came back, we were on

653
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 2: the the aircraft carrier. The first thing we said to

654
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 2: the all but news people was that they were engaged.

655
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 1: Talk about Jean Cern and I'm told that's the guy

656
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 1: that he's from Chicago, shares check blood with you, that

657
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: that you're most compatible with.

658
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jane and I were very compatible. He was from

659
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,280
Speaker 2: Chicago and Uh and of course my family had started

660
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 2: in Chicago and the jerk, the Geminy or the Check

661
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 2: I should say that, the chech group and he's I

662
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 2: think his name was actually servant check on one time. UH.

663
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 2: And so we got to know each other quiet well

664
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 2: during the program and he was back up to UH.

665
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 2: I think it was a pollo our Gemity twelve and everything.

666
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 2: And even after the flights, we Jean and Neil and

667
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 2: I went to Afghanistan and Iraq to to talk about

668
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,720
Speaker 2: the talk to the olders and the troops up there,

669
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 2: and we tell them how, you know, grateful we all

670
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,280
Speaker 2: were with what they were doing, and we were proud

671
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 2: of them, and they in turn, we in turn talked

672
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 2: about space stories. So we got to know each other

673
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 2: quite well and over the years and really sorry to

674
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 2: see him go.

675
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: You were an only child, and I've read that for

676
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: some reason many astronauts grow up as only as an

677
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 1: only child. Why do you think that is?

678
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 2: Well, you got to remember the time I was born

679
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty eight. What happened in twenty nine, you know,

680
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 2: and the depression was going on in nine. In the

681
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 2: early thirties, the family didn't have that many kids that

682
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 2: they have nowadays, and consequently it was these are some

683
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,919
Speaker 2: tough times that I can remember that my father when

684
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 2: he died earlyer. My mother didn't make much money as

685
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 2: a secretary, and we would have tough times living, but

686
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 2: we survived.

687
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 1: You mentioned you were born in nineteen twenty eight. In

688
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 1: March twenty fifth, you just turned ninety two. That's a

689
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: year after Charles Lindbergh's famous flight, and I'm told that

690
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: he was your hero.

691
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 2: That's right, you know, during growing up here is children

692
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 2: beatty boys growing up usually have heroes that are doing that.

693
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 2: And with Lindbergh a flight manuslated twenty seven and then

694
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 2: of course the well when I was born and then

695
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 2: in the thirties, we were interested in flying. I built

696
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 2: all the airplanes and I read about everything about aviation,

697
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:12,359
Speaker 2: and so Lindberg naturally came to mind, and he was

698
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 2: my hero as a youngster, and it's amazing that we

699
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 2: got to meet him during my Space days, especially at

700
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,320
Speaker 2: Apollo eight. He and his wife came down and Barman

701
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 2: and Andrews and I had lunch with him, and it

702
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:31,280
Speaker 2: was really, you know, really something that I dreamed about.

703
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 2: What was a smaller kid. That was a real thing.

704
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 2: And then finally after Apollo thirteen, I got a letter

705
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 2: from Lindbergh just a week or so after I arrived home,

706
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:51,280
Speaker 2: and he was out of the Philippines doing some work

707
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 2: with the tribes there, I think at Minton now, but

708
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 2: he actually when he went up in a helicopter to

709
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 2: as I was coming back during that period where it

710
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 2: was touch and go, he went up in a helicopter

711
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 2: and listened to the radio from Manila to see how

712
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 2: well I was doing on the return on thirteen.

713
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: Wow, what a neat thing to get to meet the

714
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 1: guy that was your childhood hero. And then and then

715
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: Apollo eight he comes in, and then I guess for

716
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,439
Speaker 1: the Apollo eleven launch, I'm told you were assigned to him,

717
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 1: so you got to take care of him and then

718
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 1: to get this personal letter from him afterwards. What I mean,

719
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: you have lived daydream?

720
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I was asked to escort him just for

721
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 2: the launch of Apollo eleven, and he and I were

722
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 2: out of the beach and I was looking at everything

723
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 2: and the countdown was going down, and I finally I said,

724
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 2: you know, colonel, remember, take a good look at that rocket,

725
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 2: at that spacecraft. It down, Tom, they're going to actually

726
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:06,439
Speaker 2: land on the bone. And he had his I think,

727
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 2: his mind someplace else, and then I think he was

728
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 2: thinking about his own flight from New York to Paris

729
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 2: way back in twenty.

730
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: Seven Spirit of Saint Louis.

731
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 2: Yes, this would be really quite an achievement to land

732
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 2: on the own. But your flight, your flight, that's the

733
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 2: flight I remember at very first flight from the Earth

734
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 2: to the Bone.

735
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 1: There is a wonderful book by Bill Bryson that came

736
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 1: out a couple of years ago, and it's called nineteen

737
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:37,439
Speaker 1: twenty seven, and it's about Babe Ruth's miraculous year when

738
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 1: it was thought he was at the end of his

739
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 1: career and Charles Lindberg's Spirit of Saint Louis and how

740
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: it all came to be and how amazing it was

741
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: and how it changed his life, and he says that

742
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 1: Charles Lindberg was the biggest celebrity the world had ever known.

743
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 1: He was the first worldwide celebrity.

744
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 2: I guess he was honored throughout his career. Of course.

745
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,399
Speaker 2: I think right now he's buried in Hawaii. I think

746
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 2: that's where his a little risky places.

747
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 1: So Nixon comes to the Mann Space Center honors Kraan's

748
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 1: and the others with the Congressional Medal of Freedom. Your

749
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 1: wives get to hop on Air Force one and come

750
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 1: to Hawaii and they meet you there to receive you.

751
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 1: Talk about that moment, Well.

752
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 2: It was quite a quite quite an event. I really

753
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 2: appreciate it. We, of course were picked up then's flown

754
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 2: from the carrier into one of the islands, I forget

755
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 2: which one it was, and then an Air Force plane

756
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 2: picked us up from there and flew us to Hawaii.

757
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 2: At the same time that our wives were invited to

758
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 2: go on Air Force one with the President, and so

759
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:01,399
Speaker 2: he flew from the US to Hawaii, and we got

760
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 2: to Hawaii a little bit before the president, so instead

761
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 2: of landing, we circled Hawaii for a while, and then

762
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 2: the President landed, and then we landed so the President

763
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 2: could be there to welcome us home. And of course

764
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,720
Speaker 2: as we started to get off the airplane, the President

765
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 2: told the girls the wives. They said, hey, you go ahead,

766
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 2: you're welcome, and I'll follow up. And that was very

767
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 2: very nice of I. We really enjoyed that.

768
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 1: But that wasn't the first time you'd met a president.

769
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 2: No, that it wasn't. As a matter of fact, I

770
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 2: was a president consultant on physical fitness and sports, and

771
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 2: consequently it was you met several presidents.

772
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 1: So I want to talk about your business career in

773
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: between seventy three and when the movie comes out in

774
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,320
Speaker 1: ninety five, in just a moment, but when you retire,

775
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 1: you write this book along with Klueger Lost Moon, and

776
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 1: you get the call that Ron Howard is looking at

777
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:11,799
Speaker 1: making a movie. Talk about that moment.

778
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 2: Well, Jeff Cougan and I decided to get together. As

779
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 2: a matter of fact, this kind occurred to us on

780
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 2: the carrier when I looked at at Jack Schwiker and

781
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 2: Fred Hayes said, hey, you know, we don't like something

782
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 2: about this. This is really unusual. But we didn't do

783
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 2: it until later on, and then I got a call

784
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 2: at home, and it was from Jeff Couger. Jeff was

785
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 2: a writer for the Discovery magazine, and he said, I'd

786
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:54,799
Speaker 2: like to write a story about Apollo thirteen. And I said, well,

787
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 2: that's what I want to do too. I said, well,

788
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 2: let's get together and do it jointly, and he said,

789
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 2: that's let's do that. And so that's how it all

790
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 2: got started. We wrote some of the transcripts to start

791
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 2: out with, and so we could take them over to

792
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,879
Speaker 2: a potential company that would, you know, do the book

793
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 2: for us. And our agent also sent them out the

794
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 2: various Bowie companies, including the one of let Me see Imagine,

795
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 2: You Imagine Entertainment, and well, unbeknows to us. And I

796
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 2: wasn't until some time later that I knew that the

797
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 2: son of one of the flight directors who was involved

798
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:49,280
Speaker 2: with NASA, Donald Houston, and was involved with Apollo thirteen.

799
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 2: The son was working for I'm trying to think now

800
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,319
Speaker 2: of the director of my.

801
00:51:59,040 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 1: Ron Howard.

802
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Ron Howard, and and he had gone and saw

803
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 2: the script that we sent to the to our agent

804
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 2: sent to Ron Howard's company to see if they were interested,

805
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:14,439
Speaker 2: and he read it and he went to Ron Howard

806
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 2: and said, look it, this looks like i'd be an

807
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 2: interesting story. Are you interested? And Ron was, And so

808
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 2: to make a long story short, he invited Jeff and

809
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 2: I out there and we spent several hours in the

810
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 2: conversation with him to see if to see if he

811
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 2: liked to make the book, and that's where he decided

812
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 2: to make the book.

813
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 1: As I understand it, Tom, Tom Hanks was very excited

814
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 1: about this movie and he wants to get into character.

815
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 1: So he and Rita, his wife, come to spend the

816
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 1: weekend with you at Horseshoe Bay. And I heard quite

817
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:53,839
Speaker 1: a story about that, if you could tell it.

818
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 2: Yes, well, of course that occurs later on. Hanks was

819
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:03,320
Speaker 2: always interested in his in his career, one of the

820
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 2: things to portray would be an astronaut. And so when

821
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 2: this thing came up with uh Ron Howard, he asked

822
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 2: him if he could play the part, and and and

823
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:19,359
Speaker 2: he was selected. One of the things that Hanks wanted

824
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 2: to do was to get acquainted with the NASA people

825
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 2: and go down to the to the Johnson Spacecraft Center

826
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 2: and meet the people. And I invited him to our

827
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 2: house and Horseshoe May start out with and we could

828
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 2: talk over some of the aspects that that that he'd

829
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 2: be interested in and portraying me UH. And so I

830
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 2: had invited him down to our house and he flew

831
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 2: into Austin. I had all a small airplane, and so

832
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 2: I flew the airplane over to Austin to pick him up.

833
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 2: And he didn't know that he was I was going

834
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 2: to fly him to our house. And so I got

835
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:04,280
Speaker 2: him there airplane and about a half an hour flight

836
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 2: from UH from Austin to to the our house. And

837
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 2: while I was there, I decided you tell him about

838
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 2: you know, zero gravity and things like that. So I

839
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:24,720
Speaker 2: had an interesting a half hour flight with him going

840
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:26,800
Speaker 2: in some of the aspects of zero gravity.

841
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 1: And I understand you took him for a night flight

842
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 1: to give him a better sense of what he's what

843
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:32,799
Speaker 1: he's working with.

844
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 2: That's right after the official flight. I said, now, look

845
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 2: at UH, let me take you out at night and

846
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:42,319
Speaker 2: show you some of the places that we needed. And

847
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 2: so I cut a little triangle a piece out of

848
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:49,959
Speaker 2: some cardboard and had to fly to the right side

849
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:53,359
Speaker 2: of the airplane off the window, I should say. And

850
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 2: then we got in and we took off at night

851
00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 2: and as we climbed up by four. Say, it was

852
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:02,919
Speaker 2: a very clear night and all the stars were out.

853
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,439
Speaker 2: And as I got a little bit out of Horseshoe Bay,

854
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 2: more towards the west fled up and I showed up

855
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 2: the stars that we used, and then I I let

856
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 2: him fly the airplane for a while to see how

857
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 2: it was. And I showed him a looking through that

858
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 2: triangle opening there of the cardboard. That's all we had

859
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:30,440
Speaker 2: to look at to find out what stars were we needed.

860
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:34,160
Speaker 2: And I showed up the stars that we used to

861
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:37,160
Speaker 2: give him a good feel of what it would be

862
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 2: like in the spacecraft. And night on the way back

863
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 2: for the Moon.

864
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,320
Speaker 1: As you sat in the Kodak Theater for the screening

865
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:50,360
Speaker 1: of that movie, and incomes Tom Hanks and his wife Rita,

866
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 1: and Kevin Costner comes in and all these stars are

867
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:57,800
Speaker 1: coming in to see your story portrayed on the big screen.

868
00:55:57,840 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 1: What was going through your mind?

869
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 2: Well, it's you know, it's quite you know, boy, you

870
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:13,319
Speaker 2: can't believe, you know, you have your self portrayed on

871
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 2: the screen doing the things that we had done, you know,

872
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 2: on the actual flight. Is really something that's that you'll

873
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 2: always be proud of and think about and something that

874
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 2: I never really expected to see that I was.

875
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:37,400
Speaker 1: I was told a really neat story about Tom Hanks

876
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:43,319
Speaker 1: buying the speeds of Apollo mural and presenting it to

877
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: you as a present, which I thought was was really powerful.

878
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:47,760
Speaker 1: Could you tell that story.

879
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:49,760
Speaker 2: We'll say that again.

880
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 1: I was told this beautiful story about Tom Hanks buying

881
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 1: the speeds of Apollo mural and presenting it to you

882
00:56:59,280 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 1: as a present.

883
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 2: This story is kind of interesting. I was asked to

884
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 2: be a consultant when they were making the movie, and

885
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 2: so I was at in California, and when I was there,

886
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 2: I got a magazine from a local house that was

887
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 2: watching off a large mural called Steeds of Apollo. Well,

888
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 2: that mural was in a hotel in Washington, d C.

889
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 2: Years before when the Apollow thirteen crew was down there

890
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 2: fire to the flight and we just happen to be

891
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 2: staying at that hotel and we had our picture taken

892
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 2: with that portrait that mureau behind us. Well, it turns

893
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 2: out that that mural was then the hotel was over

894
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 2: the years was doing renovation, and that bureau was up

895
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 2: for all in Santa Monica. Uh And in this magazine

896
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 2: it showed where it was auction. So I told Hanks,

897
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:11,520
Speaker 2: I said, look at here's this murau of stage of Apollo,

898
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 2: and that the artist who did that also did our

899
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 2: patch using that as a background, I said, and now

900
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 2: it's up for auction here and and uh Santa Monica

901
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 2: and they he knew at that time that this of course,

902
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 2: uh long later when we were looking at building a

903
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 2: restaurant here in Lake Forest, that that that mureau would

904
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 2: look pretty good at a restaurant. And uh so uh

905
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 2: I told him that I forgot completely about it. Well,

906
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 2: it turned out that was he and his wife, Rida Wilson,

907
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 2: when he and his wife and Rita's mother and not

908
00:58:56,840 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 2: not Tom went down to the auction and they bought

909
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 2: that Steeds of Apollo and and and had it shipped

910
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 2: down to Chicago into a a storage place. And unbeknownst

911
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 2: to me, and I was coming back from a trip

912
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 2: one time, and I got a call from my secretary

913
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 2: and said, listen, I want to pick you up at

914
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 2: the airport. It's very important, and so I said, look

915
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 2: for it. She said, I can't tell you that right now.

916
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 2: So when I got back to Chicago and I met

917
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 2: her at the airport. There my wife was also in

918
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 2: the car, and she started driving down to the center

919
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 2: of Chicago and kept going down. And now there are

920
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,200
Speaker 2: two parts of Chicago. If you stay to the left,

921
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 2: there's all the down to Chicago with all the lights

922
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 2: and the restaurants and all that. But then she feared off,

923
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:02,440
Speaker 2: you're going west, which is a little bit of you know,

924
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 2: the factory side and things like that. I said, where

925
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 2: are you going? That? I can't tell you. And finally

926
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:13,160
Speaker 2: she picked up or she parked at a at a

927
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 2: warehouse and there was a single light over the door,

928
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 2: and she said, just a minute. I said, can I

929
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:23,560
Speaker 2: go with you? She said no, And finally she calls

930
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 2: me over and Merlyn and I go over there and

931
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:30,800
Speaker 2: it's a warehouse, worthy store intings and things like that,

932
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:35,680
Speaker 2: and on the wall was the huge mural and at

933
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 2: the bottom is the bottle of champagne that was open,

934
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 2: and and her iPhone, and on the iPhone was Tom

935
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 2: Hanks Uh, and he said, I just want to give

936
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 2: you this as a and to help you with the restaurants.

937
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 2: You're by the building.

938
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 1: What a nice thing. So you developed the friendship, Oh.

939
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:01,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, we did developed a friendship. We had a friendship

940
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 2: before that you know, uh, you know, there's ever since

941
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:09,960
Speaker 2: he was with us out of Horseshoe Bay.

942
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 1: The motto for the mission was X Luna Sciencia from

943
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:18,640
Speaker 1: the Moon Knowledge. What what did you hope humanity would

944
01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 1: learn from that mission?

945
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 2: Well? I wasn't quite sure we were going to look

946
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 2: at the moon and pick up rocks where it's all

947
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:30,400
Speaker 2: was necessary. That was sort of an unusual part of

948
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:34,440
Speaker 2: the moon that we're going to frommorrow. And that model,

949
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:38,160
Speaker 2: by the way, I kind of sliped from the Naval Academy,

950
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 2: which was something like x x Oceanicho or something like that.

951
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:48,920
Speaker 1: But it was the it was the Greek word of

952
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:51,920
Speaker 1: its from knowledge.

953
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:56,560
Speaker 2: Ex actually right X trades and so I slipped that

954
01:01:56,720 --> 01:01:59,439
Speaker 2: I put in place of it.

955
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:03,960
Speaker 1: What was your reasoning for the odyssey? I have read

956
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:07,160
Speaker 1: that it was because you liked the fact that Odysseus

957
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 1: had been through all these challenges and had overcome them,

958
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:12,320
Speaker 1: and you wanted to apply that.

959
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it was a natural the odyssey. The story

960
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:19,240
Speaker 2: of the Odyssey was one of trial and lots of

961
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 2: lots of problems and things like that, and that's what

962
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 2: we thought the spacecraft would be doing. And we didn't

963
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:29,439
Speaker 2: know the accident of course, but we thought, honestly would

964
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 2: be perfect.

965
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 1: Captain Lovell, I could ask you questions all afternoon, but

966
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:38,800
Speaker 1: I know I can't keep you that long. Is there

967
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:40,720
Speaker 1: something I didn't ask you that you'd like to talk

968
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 1: about otherwise? I'm good.

969
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:47,040
Speaker 2: Well, No, I missed Texas. I missed the horse Hue Bay,

970
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 2: and miss Houston. There's a lot of friends down there

971
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:54,800
Speaker 2: that are still there. At one time we were going

972
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:58,560
Speaker 2: to have a galo down there for Apollo thirteen. Of

973
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 2: course that was all screw by this time, but my son,

974
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:05,280
Speaker 2: of course, lives down there, so we're very happy about

975
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:06,600
Speaker 2: Texas well.

976
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 1: If if in fact, you're back home anytime soon, it

977
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:15,560
Speaker 1: would be an absolute pleasure to meet you and to

978
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 1: introduce you to my boys. You are a true American

979
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:21,280
Speaker 1: hero and I have thoroughly enjoyed getting to talk to you.

980
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:22,520
Speaker 1: Thank you for your service, sir.

981
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 2: Well, it's been a lot of fun and I enjoyed

982
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 2: talking to YouTube.

983
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 1: Yes, sir, if you like the Michael Berry Show and podcast,

984
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 1: please tell one friend, and if you're so inclined, write

985
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 1: a nice review of our podcast. Comments, suggestions, questions, and

986
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:42,720
Speaker 1: interest in being a corporate sponsor and partner can be

987
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 1: communicated directly to the show at our email address, Michael

988
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:51,760
Speaker 1: at Michael Berryshow dot com, or simply by clicking on

989
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:56,560
Speaker 1: our website, Michael Berryshow dot com. The Michael Berry Show

990
01:03:56,680 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 1: and Podcast is produced by Ramon Roeblis, The King of Ding.

991
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:11,800
Speaker 1: Executive producer is Chad Nakanishi. Jim Mudd is the creative director.

992
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:18,200
Speaker 1: Voices Jingles, Tomfoolery and Shenanigans are provided by Chance McLean.

993
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:23,480
Speaker 1: Director of Research is Sandy Peterson. Emily Bull is our

994
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:30,959
Speaker 1: assistant listener and superfan. Contributions are appreciated and often incorporated

995
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:34,720
Speaker 1: into our production. Where possible, we give credit, where not,

996
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:38,440
Speaker 1: we take all the credit for ourselves. God bless the

997
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:44,160
Speaker 1: memory of Rush Limbaugh. Long live Elvis, be a simple

998
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:50,040
Speaker 1: man like Leonard Skinnard told you, and God bless America. Finally,

999
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:54,560
Speaker 1: if you know a veteran suffering from PTSD, call Camp

1000
01:04:54,600 --> 01:05:00,440
Speaker 1: Hope at eight seven seven seven one seven PTSD and

1001
01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:04,840
Speaker 1: a combat veteran will answer the phone to provide free counseling.