Speaker 1: Look man, oh I see you? Why why? And look
Speaker 1: over there? How is that culture? Yes? Goodness dust cultures
Speaker 1: is calling and really good moods because you know what,
Speaker 1: it's the weather. It's the weather on both coasts at
Speaker 1: the moment. We're recording this on Sunday, the twenty sixth
Speaker 1: of March. Yeah, and it's nice in New York, it's
Speaker 1: nice in La. I don't know what it's like in
Speaker 1: our guests city. Right now, we'll have him China. How
Speaker 1: are things in Glouckama? Glauckama? Do you understand what that
Speaker 1: is a reference to? Oh no, I don't. I hate
Speaker 1: it when this happens. It's from the Broadway musical Finnian's Rainbow,
Speaker 1: and there's a song called how are things in Glaucama? Now?
Speaker 1: Why would you say that? Well, just because it's sort
Speaker 1: of now, why would you say that? Uh not? Now,
Speaker 1: why would you say that? I don't know. I was
Speaker 1: having fun. I'm sorry, I said were. I said we
Speaker 1: were in good moods and sort of pattering the ball
Speaker 1: back and forth, you know, like you do with balls.
Speaker 1: And I sort of just sent to goat something and
Speaker 1: you sort of shamed me. Queen. No, Queen, I didn't
Speaker 1: mean to you know. I was thinking of you this morning.
Speaker 1: I woke up. I want were I miss my friend
Speaker 1: Matt Roger. You said that to yourself. I said that
Speaker 1: out loud to no one. Oh. You sort of sent
Speaker 1: me a photo last nighte of you and the girls
Speaker 1: at iconic New York party event course Meat Disco, and
Speaker 1: I was a little bit jealous, but not super jealous
Speaker 1: because I am avoiding those spaces because I have a
Speaker 1: new rule right now, which is no new gay men.
Speaker 1: I don't trust them. I don't want to talk to them.
Speaker 1: If you have to introduce yourself to me, keep it moving.
Speaker 1: But I'm happy that you wanted to go to that event.
Speaker 1: I needed to because I was so hermetic in London
Speaker 1: for two weeks. I was like losing my mind. I
Speaker 1: was like, I gotta go out totally. I have to
Speaker 1: like release this and guess what it worked? Did you twirl?
Speaker 1: We twirled and guess what we did. We went to
Speaker 1: like the side room where it was like the energy
Speaker 1: was not quite dark room, but it was like much hornier,
Speaker 1: but it was it was the Hens. It was me, Josh,
Speaker 1: Aaron Patrick Rogers, Matt Whittaker. We all went to this
Speaker 1: back room and we just screamed at and it clucked
Speaker 1: in a full conversation, and then the bit was dark
Speaker 1: room more like red table talk that we were chatting,
Speaker 1: we were healing, and that doesn't happen. And who says
Speaker 1: that the dark room can't become the red table? And
Speaker 1: that's a royal culture number forty eight? Who says the
Speaker 1: dark room can't become the red table? Sometimes all the
Speaker 1: girls in the dark room, they need the red table
Speaker 1: the most, Like we need to really come to the
Speaker 1: red table sometimes when we're in the dark room. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: and horse me disco more like chicken feed dance off
Speaker 1: period period. Oh my god, Wow, I'm so happy. The
Speaker 1: energy is so good. Maybe it's the weather. Maybe you
Speaker 1: know what we just said before we got on here,
Speaker 1: Chatty Nicholas was right, let's go to the beach. Did
Speaker 1: Jenny Nicolas say let's go to the beach? No, but
Speaker 1: she did say that things were turning around and we
Speaker 1: need to get channing on the pod. I feel one
Speaker 1: thousand percent. Oh, I was just meditating to her like
Speaker 1: ten minutes ago, okay, that this is going to be
Speaker 1: a huge moment for the pod going for when we
Speaker 1: do have Channing as a guest. But I will say
Speaker 1: so there was that iconic week a couple weeks ago
Speaker 1: where she said, guys, this is not the week. Everyone
Speaker 1: stop what you're doing. Stop. And it really was a
Speaker 1: truly awful week. And then the next week I was
Speaker 1: still feeling in the duldrums, really really bad. Yet Channing
Speaker 1: came on and she was like, I know, but you
Speaker 1: have to use today because I believe it was the equinox.
Speaker 1: And she was like, you have to use today to
Speaker 1: put projects in motion and set your intention and put
Speaker 1: energy into things that you want to like see through.
Speaker 1: And I did that, and things are happening. Things are happening.
Speaker 1: And our guests in his book The Best Strangers in
Speaker 1: the World says he doesn't believe in any of this bullshit,
Speaker 1: which I was him once. So was I on the
Speaker 1: record on this podcast. I was like, I don't understand
Speaker 1: this stuff. I've read too many Carl Seagan books to
Speaker 1: buy into this same listen. Channy is someone if any
Speaker 1: readers Katie's publicists out there are on that level, Channy
Speaker 1: is someone who like puts it in very understandable, approachable terms.
Speaker 1: It's not even two I would say, like misstick. It's
Speaker 1: just very like straightforward and it's usually just about like
Speaker 1: reflecting and writing down your intentions, like pretty like full
Speaker 1: stop healthy things. Yes, you described it to me as
Speaker 1: she's a scientist. And when you said to me she's
Speaker 1: a scientist, I said, well, I'm on board. There you go.
Speaker 1: I would challenge anyone, including our guests, to sort of
Speaker 1: grapple with this statement. Okay, I'm just gonna say this
Speaker 1: right now, and just know this changed everything for me.
Speaker 1: Our bodies are over seventy five percent water. How can
Speaker 1: you expect that we would not be affected by the
Speaker 1: moons the tides? Oh my god, did she say that? No,
Speaker 1: she didn't say that, but someone did who I don't remember,
Speaker 1: but whoever they were change my life because I went
Speaker 1: from being'm like I don't believe in that too someone
Speaker 1: saying that to me, and then I was like, not
Speaker 1: only do I believe in it, but I'm making it
Speaker 1: a large part of my personality going forward. And you
Speaker 1: as a water sign that's on period, as a waterside
Speaker 1: that's actually on aquatic period, aquatic period. We mentioned our
Speaker 1: guests in passing, Yes we did, And I'm gonna do
Speaker 1: RuPaul right now and my new thing is I'm saying
Speaker 1: how I meet people like RuPaul would say it. I
Speaker 1: met our guest in Mexico City in two twenty one.
Speaker 1: It was New Year's I was with my sister Bowen Yang,
Speaker 1: and we connected and shopped together the next day after
Speaker 1: a night o'le on the talent at the store, boyfriend's
Speaker 1: shirt and I had active COVID nineteen. And I'm telling
Speaker 1: you I had active COVID nineteen. I did not know
Speaker 1: about it. And we shopped in a small store together
Speaker 1: and I immediately texted our guests. I said, do you
Speaker 1: have the coronavirus nineteen? And he said no. So not
Speaker 1: only is this person an author, a host of all
Speaker 1: things considered the legendary MPR host, I mean just like
Speaker 1: man myth legend performer. I mean, have you heard of
Speaker 1: Pink Martini. I mean like it's just like there's there's
Speaker 1: so much underneath the gorgeous visage of this man. And
Speaker 1: also no, he is very much Bella Ramsey and the
Speaker 1: last of us, and that he needs his brain removed
Speaker 1: and needs to be studied because he is COVID immune. Yes,
Speaker 1: it will cure humanity if they study his brain. This
Speaker 1: man is the vaccine. This man is the vaccine. Can
Speaker 1: I just say, you know who listens to all things considered?
Speaker 1: Every day in the car? My mother many. I was
Speaker 1: gonna say, your mother. I was gonna say this because
Speaker 1: I'm sure our guest gets like, oh, my parents love you,
Speaker 1: and like, certainly I put on NPR doing the dishes
Speaker 1: in the bathroom, doing the routine. This man is in
Speaker 1: my ear. But for my mother to like choose to
Speaker 1: listen to an English language program, wow, huge deal, huge deal.
Speaker 1: You cannot get her to watch anything or listen to
Speaker 1: anything that is not in Mandarin Chinese like, except when
Speaker 1: it is undeniably essential. And that is a big deal.
Speaker 1: Two words, undeniably dundant. It's a front runner for title
Speaker 1: of app undeniably essential. The new book is the best
Speaker 1: Strangers in the World. It is quite a read. Quite
Speaker 1: read a bowl. I read this. I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna eat like five days three that I'm a celeb reader.
Speaker 1: I read this in three Yeah. Absolutely, we loved it.
Speaker 1: Beautiful stories from a beautiful life well lived. I've also
Speaker 1: been sent an iconic three copies of it from PR,
Speaker 1: and I want to say thank you because I absolutely
Speaker 1: love having a gift to give because I can't think
Speaker 1: of a better gift to give then the book by
Speaker 1: our guest. And this is a moment in time. I
Speaker 1: know readers publishist katies who identify as hashtag actually smart
Speaker 1: are absolutely over the moon today to welcome into our
Speaker 1: ears our guests. All right, oh my god, you guys,
Speaker 1: you have given me so much over the year's entertainment, fashion, advice, fashion.
Speaker 1: Last the only thing you have not given me is
Speaker 1: COVID nineteen truly, and let me tell you, I was
Speaker 1: a just way of COVID, Like it was like pee
Speaker 1: peak contagion. If only you had spit in my drink.
Speaker 1: I know, I thought about it. That was a fun
Speaker 1: night and that was my last night there. We all
Speaker 1: went out. That was very fun. That was the night
Speaker 1: that I'm in R two. Yeah, on that rooftop bar.
Speaker 1: And you know what was so meaningful to me was
Speaker 1: seeing over the course of the year that followed all
Speaker 1: of the flowers that bloomed for both of you from
Speaker 1: Fire Island too. I love that for you to wick it.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's been so glorious. This in a way
Speaker 1: feels like a full circle moment where we're able to
Speaker 1: reconvene and appreciate the amazing harvest you have both read
Speaker 1: that is too nice, that it's so nice. I don't
Speaker 1: know what to say. But this, this man is here's
Speaker 1: the thing. He's a host in all ways. Like here,
Speaker 1: he is making us, fluffing us on our own podcast, obviously,
Speaker 1: and iconic coast in his own right. And I'll say,
Speaker 1: I've had dinner at the man's home in Washington, d C.
Speaker 1: The district of Columbia. As many people say, this man
Speaker 1: can cook. He can cook. It's unbelievable. Secret ingredient is love.
Speaker 1: I just pour a lot of love into it. There
Speaker 1: is a culture out there of from my garden. There
Speaker 1: is a from my garden culture there people who get
Speaker 1: to say the words from my garden, my garden, blessed bunch.
Speaker 1: I know that I'm a cliche, but yeah, no, I garden.
Speaker 1: I grow vegetables, and I'm gonna just come clean about this.
Speaker 1: I have a garden coach. I have this amazing urban
Speaker 1: farmer who every two weeks comes over and tells me
Speaker 1: how not to kill all the organic vegetables I'm growing.
Speaker 1: And I'm not ashamed to admit that they are from
Speaker 1: this incredible, small, local queer women owned company called Love
Speaker 1: and Carrots. And it's the best decision that I made.
Speaker 1: And them you have a trainer, that's I have. I
Speaker 1: have an organic vegetable trainer. I'm not ashamed to admit it.
Speaker 1: I have professional help. Now that's perfect. At this point,
Speaker 1: I need a task rabbit for everything. Not that I
Speaker 1: actually hire them, but it's someone to tell me. But
Speaker 1: it's like, at a certain point, I'm just like helpless, literally,
Speaker 1: and like all I can do is get help. You
Speaker 1: cannot be expected to be good at literally everything. You
Speaker 1: cannot be expected to be an expert at everything. And
Speaker 1: if you have an opportunity to bring in somebody to
Speaker 1: share their gifts and talents with you and economically support
Speaker 1: them at the same time, it's a win win win.
Speaker 1: There you go. That's my feeling about the thing. This
Speaker 1: is pro test rabbit culture. And I've always been very
Speaker 1: pro test rabbit because this is pro gig economy. This
Speaker 1: is pro gig economy. It's called just pro gig economy. Yes,
Speaker 1: we support it, we sup. I just say, if Bowen,
Speaker 1: if you want to figure out how to do all
Speaker 1: these things yourself, just have the task rabbit come over
Speaker 1: and then watch intently. Right, Yeah, it's the whole Give
Speaker 1: a person a fish, Teach a person a persing. Thank
Speaker 1: you Jesus, teach a person a fish. Watch that motherfucker fish. Yeah,
Speaker 1: film the person fishing. Kill the person fishing. You said kill.
Speaker 1: Where I'm at? Took a turn? How is this book tour?
Speaker 1: How are you doing? Yeah? It is so incredible. I
Speaker 1: keep waiting for the experience of signing books to become
Speaker 1: just a repetitive hand cramp activity, but every time I'm
Speaker 1: doing it, I feel just in sort of shock that
Speaker 1: these words that I wrote in private on my laptop,
Speaker 1: wondering if anybody would ever want to read them or
Speaker 1: have the opportunity to read them, are now going out
Speaker 1: into the world and being consumed by people. And as
Speaker 1: I meet people, like, it's just, you know, radio is
Speaker 1: this very strange medium where you might reach an enormous audience,
Speaker 1: as you know with your podcast, but you don't often
Speaker 1: have the opportunity to engage with them because they're listening
Speaker 1: in their car or their kitchen or wherever, and you
Speaker 1: may never meet them. And now I'm like actually going
Speaker 1: from city to city and meeting people who are telling
Speaker 1: me that they listen to what I have to say
Speaker 1: and they're reading the words that I wrote, and it's
Speaker 1: this really meaningful experience. So it's a like ambitious eleven
Speaker 1: city tour with a crazy itinerary. But I'm so thrilled
Speaker 1: to be doing it. Like originally I was supposed to
Speaker 1: be New York, Philly, Boston, DC, which makes sense, and
Speaker 1: then Dallas was like, oh, we want you to come visit,
Speaker 1: and I had one extra day, so I went Philly, Dallas,
Speaker 1: Boston and met some amazing people in Dallas and went
Speaker 1: two stepping at his country western gay bar called the
Speaker 1: Roundup Saloon. Like I'm having a great time. I'm really
Speaker 1: just loving this experience. Oh that's the best travel show.
Speaker 1: Travel show for Art Shapiro. I'm down. I mean, sign
Speaker 1: me up. You know what it's like to be on
Speaker 1: the road. You go out with Alan all the time. Yes,
Speaker 1: so Alan coming, And I made this show with your
Speaker 1: friend and mine and words. And as soon as I
Speaker 1: finished this book tour, we are all convening at the
Speaker 1: Cafe Carlisle in New York for a two week run.
Speaker 1: There we go, Oh amazing, It's the most fun thing
Speaker 1: I've ever done to just like bounce around the country
Speaker 1: with Alan and Henry and you know, like we do
Speaker 1: this show where we just make ourselves laugh and hopefully
Speaker 1: make the audience laugh too, and we sing songs together
Speaker 1: and we it's never quite the same at any two nights.
Speaker 1: And Alan, I mean you've both met him, you know,
Speaker 1: magic man like mentor friend, older brother figure, just the kindest,
Speaker 1: most generous, selfless, joyful person I've ever met. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: love the chapter that I said, what would you call gosh?
Speaker 1: I never know what to call them chapter and story
Speaker 1: essay either, Yeah, whatever, lovely chunk chunk the chunk where
Speaker 1: Because this is the dream, right when you're performing with
Speaker 1: someone else on stage, is that they put you at
Speaker 1: ease totally. You described like people asking you like, oh,
Speaker 1: it must be really intimidating to the performance someone of
Speaker 1: Alan's stature or whatever, and for you to say no,
Speaker 1: it's the opposite is huge. Well, because it's like if
Speaker 1: I jump, I know he'll catch me if our show
Speaker 1: is going off the tracks. He is so talented and
Speaker 1: experienced and gifted, he knows how to get it back
Speaker 1: on the tracks. So I just have to like get
Speaker 1: up there and have a good time with him. And
Speaker 1: in the moments when we do forget what we're supposed
Speaker 1: to do, it's brilliant, it's fun. It's a moment that
Speaker 1: the audience experiences that will never be quite that way again.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've both had this experience where you're doing
Speaker 1: a scene or a show or something with somebody who
Speaker 1: has so much more experienced, talent and expertise than you
Speaker 1: that you just feel like, oh, they've got this. I
Speaker 1: can relax and I know that they can steer me
Speaker 1: where I need to go. But then you still get
Speaker 1: better in the process of just like totally yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you level up. Yep. It's that thing of when you
Speaker 1: feel comfortable enough and I'm ad nauseam about this on
Speaker 1: this podcast, I feel, but I do feel it's the
Speaker 1: best advice ever for a performer, which is when you
Speaker 1: feel comfortable enough to start really having fun, that's when
Speaker 1: the audience feels like they're having fun, like truly. I mean,
Speaker 1: I always credit it. It's an Amy Pohler's book, Yes please.
Speaker 1: She said. The hack is if you're having fun, they're
Speaker 1: having fun. And so even in a very intimidating atmosphere
Speaker 1: where you know you're performing at say the Hollywood Bowl
Speaker 1: as you have, or alongside Alan Cumming, where there is
Speaker 1: probably not for nothing but a ticket buyer who expects
Speaker 1: a certain degree of excellence. And I would imagine also
Speaker 1: someone that's coming that's like an NPR ticket buyer is
Speaker 1: not necessarily not going to be thinking about the value
Speaker 1: of their dollar. Oh but you know the great thing
Speaker 1: about that scenario is they come in with such low
Speaker 1: expectations for me that it's very easy for you. Like
Speaker 1: if I can carry a tune, they're like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: you can carry a tune. Like allen coming one a Tony.
Speaker 1: People come in being like I expect a Tony Award
Speaker 1: went actually two Tony's to Tony Award winning performance. And
Speaker 1: then there's that other guy who's a journalist. And so
Speaker 1: then when I can like harmonize with Alan, people are
Speaker 1: like yeah, they're freaking yeah, it's amazing. And of course
Speaker 1: Henry Koperski, the third we call him the vegan meat
Speaker 1: in our sandwich. Um, we couldn't do it without him.
Speaker 1: He's just such a perfect foil. He's such a perfect
Speaker 1: sort of like you know, straight man in the corner,
Speaker 1: and we sort of toy with him throughout the show.
Speaker 1: I mean, listen, you're talking to someone who knows quite
Speaker 1: a bit about toying with toy with Henry's meat. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he alright, vegan meat. He really is. He's just he
Speaker 1: is a perfect foil. I mean, like it's just me
Speaker 1: up there talking and I'll reference him and he is
Speaker 1: like the other half of my act on stage, but
Speaker 1: he is in musically he's so able to get on
Speaker 1: the page right right there. I mean, he's truly a
Speaker 1: super So. The other day, as you know, Matt I
Speaker 1: said to Henry, look, I want to do a version
Speaker 1: of Celo Green's song fuck You, but I want to
Speaker 1: do it like in an earnest Josh Groban style with
Speaker 1: an a tomniment that's sort of like early Passaic and
Speaker 1: Paul and He's like got you and he did it,
Speaker 1: and it's like okay, here we go, and can we
Speaker 1: just say it is like an actual skill and talent
Speaker 1: to be like played off of in that sense right
Speaker 1: where it's like you're an accompanist or you're you're at
Speaker 1: the keys, you're on display, like you're on stage just
Speaker 1: as much as someone like as like either of you
Speaker 1: and you kind of have to like do something technical,
Speaker 1: which is to play the music, but also like roll
Speaker 1: with like the vibe of the of the show and
Speaker 1: like smile and like play along with like everything that's happening.
Speaker 1: It is a true talent that I think is undersung. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: And when you look at the people who Henry has
Speaker 1: worked with, from those of us present here to like
Speaker 1: credit titleman, Yeah yeah, Larry Owens, Allen Cumming, like the
Speaker 1: list of people who he has made better than we
Speaker 1: actually are is long. I will say my favorite person
Speaker 1: he's ever played for when I released my special with
Speaker 1: Henry and I made together and I posted a separate
Speaker 1: like grid post like that was just all for him.
Speaker 1: The last picture I posted in like the Carousel was
Speaker 1: him and Vanessa Williams, because I'll just never forget when
Speaker 1: he got to play for Vanessa Williams and I thought
Speaker 1: that was so amazing And that was like early on
Speaker 1: what like before he was like, you know, literally pals
Speaker 1: with you and Alan Cumming and like it wasn't a
Speaker 1: surprise to see him in like whatever country, Like I
Speaker 1: never know where in the world he is anymore. It's
Speaker 1: one of the proudest times I ever. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: it's the proudest I've ever been when I hear what
Speaker 1: he's doing, and just because I knew him, truly when
Speaker 1: like my image of Henry is like him covered in sweat,
Speaker 1: like carrying a keyboard upstairs, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: like going from thing to thing, like truly being like,
Speaker 1: you know, obviously deeply appreciated by the comedy community, but
Speaker 1: we were not able to appreciate him financial that we
Speaker 1: should have been. And now I take great pleasure in
Speaker 1: being able to give him these opportunities and like treat
Speaker 1: him the way that he deserves to be treated because
Speaker 1: we finally can. But I just remember, like back in
Speaker 1: the day, the Vanessa Williams thing. I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: she's like a legit superstar. You got to play with
Speaker 1: her and the readers publicist Katie's No, Henry as like
Speaker 1: a character on this podcast, like recurring guest star, even
Speaker 1: though he's never actually made it appear. No, yes, he has.
Speaker 1: Oh my went early early days, ye early days. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he got his own episode. I came to it late.
Speaker 1: I have to go back into the archives, you do.
Speaker 1: That would be a really interesting listen because I think
Speaker 1: we were dating at the time, and I also think, oh,
Speaker 1: that was like right after Trump was elected though, and
Speaker 1: I remember he had gotten to meet Michelle Obama. Do
Speaker 1: you know this has hey? Oh wait, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: My publicist Joseph Papa showed me this. I did not,
Speaker 1: and I had to just like last week, remember that, Henry,
Speaker 1: How did I not know that this was you? Of
Speaker 1: course I've seen this viral video with Jimmy Fallon, is
Speaker 1: what you're talking about, right, yeah, oh yes, yes, oh
Speaker 1: of course, Oh my god. That was that was huge.
Speaker 1: That was so special. It was such a horrible time
Speaker 1: because he had Trump had just been elected, and everyone
Speaker 1: was truly it was horrible. Henry and I were living together,
Speaker 1: I believe, still in South Slope, and he was gonna
Speaker 1: go do this bit on the Tonight Show where you
Speaker 1: had to tell a picture of Michelle Obama like what
Speaker 1: she meant to you. I feel like now, knowing what
Speaker 1: we know, like you know Michelle Obama. For some reason,
Speaker 1: he didn't, and she came out and gave him a
Speaker 1: hug and thanked him, and it was just you know,
Speaker 1: there's not a more beautiful from the inside out person
Speaker 1: than him, And to see him get that moment and
Speaker 1: receive that moment and like you know, he really felt
Speaker 1: like all of us in a way, like and I
Speaker 1: was just overflowing. And then we talked about that on
Speaker 1: the episode. That was a very emotional time. But yeah,
Speaker 1: talk about just like a superstar inside and out. That's Henry,
Speaker 1: I mean. And you can't if you're if you're someone
Speaker 1: that wants to book him for December, you can't have him.
Speaker 1: He's mine. That's Christmas for the rest of my life.
Speaker 1: What is it? First option? No, first position? Sorry, first
Speaker 1: He's in first position with me for all of Christmas.
Speaker 1: That's right. Speaking of the Obamas, Yes, it's a weird
Speaker 1: thing that I've clung onto from the book Ari is
Speaker 1: that you describe being an Air Force one And I
Speaker 1: don't know why this is sticking with me, but you're
Speaker 1: like describing eating I think spaghetti and meat balls, and
Speaker 1: I think you wrote the line the food on Air
Speaker 1: Force one tends to lean heavy. Yes, talk about that?
Speaker 1: What is that about? Well, even after Michelle Obama did
Speaker 1: her whole Let's Move Eat Healthy, Improving school lunches things, Oh,
Speaker 1: I loved Let's move well in the press corps in
Speaker 1: the back of Air Force One, which still for lunch
Speaker 1: should be sort of like a slab of meat loaf
Speaker 1: and mashed potatoes. Why is this happening when the first
Speaker 1: lady is encouraging consumption of fresh, healthy meals. And we
Speaker 1: speculated that it was because they wanted to keep us
Speaker 1: sedated and leak. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You're not going to
Speaker 1: ask the president tough questions if you're in a food coma,
Speaker 1: and so our theory never proven was that they were
Speaker 1: trying to keep us down by overfeeding us heavy meals
Speaker 1: on Air Force. Interesting. I think that that makes a
Speaker 1: lot of sense. It's just a theory. We need an
Speaker 1: investigate reporter to get on that. I mean, you were
Speaker 1: too tired to investigate it. I mean, look, this was
Speaker 1: the Obama administration, so things may have changed. For all
Speaker 1: I know, there's now an Air Force one salad bar,
Speaker 1: but at the time there was a real dearth of vege.
Speaker 1: That's so funny. Can I ask about Obama in person?
Speaker 1: So you describe him sort of coming up and like,
Speaker 1: you know, asking how's lunch, and like being very present
Speaker 1: and you being in his a minute media vicinity many times?
Speaker 1: Is it giving star quality? Yeah, in the sense, so
Speaker 1: like there's sort of paparazzi star quality and then there's
Speaker 1: I'm so comfortable in my own skin that I don't
Speaker 1: need to tell you that I'm a star star body.
Speaker 1: And he always he really gives off kind of bro vibes,
Speaker 1: basketball player vibes, like he always just seemed super chill,
Speaker 1: super laid back, very relaxidentt And actually, so my husband
Speaker 1: worked in the Obama White House. We overlapped for like
Speaker 1: one year, which was an interesting momentum. He was a
Speaker 1: White House lawyer, and so he kind of had a
Speaker 1: different perspective on the President from me, but he describes
Speaker 1: him the same way as just sort of like kind
Speaker 1: of broy chill. Yeah, that first time I met him,
Speaker 1: I remember, so I'm like sitting in my chair in
Speaker 1: Air Force one and he's standing literally right next to
Speaker 1: the arm rest taking questions, and I remember looking up
Speaker 1: at him and I saw razor bumps on his neck. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you talk about this in the book. It was like
Speaker 1: it was my first time on Air Force one and
Speaker 1: I had never been quite that close to the president,
Speaker 1: and I just remember thinking like, oh, this is just
Speaker 1: a normal dude, Like he's a guy who shaves in
Speaker 1: the morning and gets razor bumps like anyone else. And
Speaker 1: he had been such a larger than life figure any president,
Speaker 1: you know, like the symbol, the hail to the chief,
Speaker 1: the like trappings of the office, especially him totally, and
Speaker 1: in that moment I was just like, Oh, he's just
Speaker 1: a guy like any of us. It humanized him for me.
Speaker 1: The razor bumps were the thing I latched onto. I
Speaker 1: affected too, did Isn't that a great word? That word
Speaker 1: cafexis yeah, which is even cooler because once you throw
Speaker 1: the X in there, it's like any word is better
Speaker 1: with an X in it. It's that's that's a rule
Speaker 1: of culture. That's a real culture. Blood number is that boone,
Speaker 1: that's a real culture number? Twenty six? Any word I
Speaker 1: was just trying to reference a word that had X
Speaker 1: zenax a great word. It's the umammy of letters. It
Speaker 1: just makes every word. Is that another lilla culture? X
Speaker 1: is the um of letters? Yes it is. It's culture
Speaker 1: number fifteen letters. It hits you in the back of
Speaker 1: the tongue. Yes. I never understood umammy until someone was like, well,
Speaker 1: what's umami? Is ketchup? And I was like, Okay, I understand.
Speaker 1: The ketchup has all everything. Ketchup is umami. Se sour,
Speaker 1: a little bitter. You need a little bitter just to
Speaker 1: round out yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: you really need all tastes. And that's culture number eighteen.
Speaker 1: You really need. And I would say that about culture too,
Speaker 1: And you know, that's a great segue, because I think
Speaker 1: you need all different kinds of people in this world
Speaker 1: to blend together to make the culture. And you are
Speaker 1: a person in culture. You're a culture former, You're a
Speaker 1: culture reactor. You are the perfect person to ask this question,
Speaker 1: which is the center question of last porturies does or
Speaker 1: a Shapiro What was the culture that made you say
Speaker 1: culture was for you? Okay, I've thought a lot about
Speaker 1: this and I realized the true authentic answer is one
Speaker 1: that is not necessarily mainstream or cool, but it's real,
Speaker 1: and so I'm gonna give it to you. That's perfect.
Speaker 1: When I was a kid, my parents had a VHS
Speaker 1: tape dubbed from the television of the PBS performances of
Speaker 1: Into the Woods and Sunday in the Park with George
Speaker 1: original cast Wow Bernadette and both Yes Bernadette in both
Speaker 1: Manny Patinkin and sending the part of George chipsign In
Speaker 1: the Woods, Joanna Gleeson, Yeah, Joanna Gleeson, and like, I
Speaker 1: watched those VHS tapes to the point that now thirty
Speaker 1: years later, I can still recite literally every lyric from
Speaker 1: every one of those shows by heart. And my parents
Speaker 1: and said, oh, you know, we're actually related to Mandy Pattenkon,
Speaker 1: And I was like, wait what, and they were like, yes,
Speaker 1: our cousin Phyllis is married to his cousin Bert, not
Speaker 1: my first cousin, not his first cousin. This is like
Speaker 1: not actually related, but I as this, like young teenager,
Speaker 1: was so excited about it. I wrote a fan letter
Speaker 1: to Mandy Potenkon. Were related, My cousin is married to
Speaker 1: your cousin, and I loved your performance so much and
Speaker 1: I watched it. He sent back an autographed headshot, which
Speaker 1: I pinned to my wall and had in my childhood
Speaker 1: bedroom all through high school. Like other people had guns n'
Speaker 1: roses posters or Christie Brinkley photos, I had an autographed
Speaker 1: headshot of Mandy Pattenkin, who I'm sure it looked gorgeous.
Speaker 1: Of course, it was like the Princess Bride years. Okay,
Speaker 1: but a star. There is a coda to this story
Speaker 1: is such a star. Yeah. Fast forward to my adult
Speaker 1: life as a host of All Things considered. Yes, and
Speaker 1: I'm interviewing Man Tinkin about his album Wow. And before
Speaker 1: we start the interview, I say, Mandy, I have a
Speaker 1: funny story to tell you. And I tell him this
Speaker 1: whole thing and he says, wait, who's your cousin? And
Speaker 1: I say, well, my cousin Phyllis was married to your
Speaker 1: cousin Bert. And he says, oh my god, you were related.
Speaker 1: Bert is my favorite cousin. He was the greatest. I
Speaker 1: wait until I tell Catherine, Mandy's wife that we are
Speaker 1: related to Ari Shapiro of NPO. You have to come
Speaker 1: to my life show. I'm doing it in DC. When
Speaker 1: we came to his live show, my parents happened to
Speaker 1: be visiting DC. We went backstage, he greeted them like family.
Speaker 1: I'm getting emotional just telling you about this. It's yeah.
Speaker 1: So that's that's my story. That's like those VHS tapes
Speaker 1: of the original Broadway performance of Sunday in the Park
Speaker 1: with George and Into the Woods set me on a
Speaker 1: journey of culture that continues to this day. Incredible actually
Speaker 1: perfectly for you because it is because it's a thinking
Speaker 1: person's musical theater to and I would describe you as
Speaker 1: a thinking person, thank you. I would describe you as
Speaker 1: a thinking person too, Matt Rogers, Well, that's huge. Not
Speaker 1: everyone was. I'm a feeling person, but that's perfect for you,
Speaker 1: like the Sandheim of it all, And then you know
Speaker 1: musical theater inclinations like that's perfect. And when I think
Speaker 1: back to those shows as a kid, I saw Into
Speaker 1: the Woods as very much about fairy tales, which as
Speaker 1: a kid made sense. And when I saw the Broadway revival,
Speaker 1: you know, it was very loyal to the original text.
Speaker 1: It didn't revolutionize it. But now as an adult, I realize, oh,
Speaker 1: it's a show about parents and children that uses fairy
Speaker 1: tales as the vehicle. And I think that as kids,
Speaker 1: like we as absorbed what we're able to absorb. We
Speaker 1: take in what makes sense to us. And great works
Speaker 1: of art can evolve over time in our minds and
Speaker 1: our understanding and operate on so many different levels. You know.
Speaker 1: It's the genius of Sondheim, the genius of great art,
Speaker 1: the genius of great art. I thought the same thing
Speaker 1: when I saw Into the Woods on Broadway too, where
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, my reading of this show in
Speaker 1: high school was like completely different than like what it
Speaker 1: is now as an adult. I'm like, this is insane,
Speaker 1: Like what a gorgeous sort of kinetic work it is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's amazing. And I thought the revival was outstanding. And
Speaker 1: I will say I just saw the revival of Sweeney Todd. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: so I saw it in previews and so I'm actually
Speaker 1: seeing it. I'm actually seeing it two more times. I'm
Speaker 1: seeing it this Friday and next Friday. So many times
Speaker 1: you got copies of my book in the mail exactly, Well,
Speaker 1: I'm going to read on the subway. I'm going to
Speaker 1: read each time. Yeah, but that's my favorite musical. So
Speaker 1: it's it's Sweeney into the Woods or up There from Yes,
Speaker 1: I love Sweeney Todd. I feel like you could write
Speaker 1: a whole other musical with just the backstory that is
Speaker 1: delivered in a single song in the beginning of Act one.
Speaker 1: Oh you know what I mean, Like, there is so
Speaker 1: much information delivered in that first song. Yup, It's like
Speaker 1: you can make a whole other musical about anyway before
Speaker 1: he was talking about yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean there's so much there. Yeah, I mean it's it's
Speaker 1: before the action even like begins, you know, absolutely, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's so hard sometimes when you really marry a certain
Speaker 1: version of something in your head. Like I wonder if
Speaker 1: when you're seeing the revival of Into the Woods, it's
Speaker 1: like you find yourself like sort of trudging along a
Speaker 1: little bit mentally watching it because you're so in love
Speaker 1: with a certain version that you're able to quote and
Speaker 1: I would imagine like sing along too in ways like
Speaker 1: because once you get really marinated and like Bernadette's Witch,
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it might be hard to hear another witch.
Speaker 1: But you know what I mean. I expected to feel
Speaker 1: that way about the revival of Once on This Island,
Speaker 1: which was another show that that revival reinvented the show
Speaker 1: in a way that was so exciting. Show you will
Speaker 1: always be famous, incredible, incredible moment by moment, just surprising, delightful. Yeah, loved, loved, loved. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's something about Sunday in the Park, that original production
Speaker 1: where the dress is still like insane that they made
Speaker 1: that happen like people who haven't seen it, Like Burnette
Speaker 1: like steps out of a dress that like mechanically animatronically
Speaker 1: like opens up and I'm still like, how did they
Speaker 1: do that? That would be hard to do today. I
Speaker 1: feel even that and the Witch's transformation, both of them.
Speaker 1: I'm like, Bernadette has these two moments that are stage magic. Yes, no,
Speaker 1: Bernadette is such a superstar. I mean like a duh,
Speaker 1: But like, Bernadette is one of the best of all time.
Speaker 1: And I wonder how she got like a Kennedy Center honors. Oh,
Speaker 1: she's overdue, she needs that. I was once at a
Speaker 1: gym in South Beach, Miami and she was there working
Speaker 1: out with a trainer, and I actually like suddenly followed
Speaker 1: her around. Yeah, you have to have to you have
Speaker 1: How could you not? How could you verify it? Was
Speaker 1: she doing there? I can't remember it was it was
Speaker 1: literally two thousand and four. She was doing back Yeah,
Speaker 1: what she doing there? It was it was upper body.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Those are those are formative time. Those
Speaker 1: are really good, well done. Thank you laid the question.
Speaker 1: Wow I was dressed about that. Really. Yeah, those are wonderful,
Speaker 1: wonderful answers. Thank you, thank you. No, I'm so honored
Speaker 1: that you think so you know what you absolutely have
Speaker 1: to go see. And I talked about this, the less
Speaker 1: them because I sort of went on a Broadway tear
Speaker 1: and I saw everything. You have to see the new
Speaker 1: Parade Revival. I know, Ari, you will be really moved.
Speaker 1: You'll have a great time. He is. I was just
Speaker 1: listening the cast album Kids for the new revival. It's
Speaker 1: just so so good. I think Jason Robert Brown is
Speaker 1: Sondheim ascending, you know what I like. I think he
Speaker 1: is so good. I feel like he has like really
Speaker 1: revolutionized like and like mastered this new like contemporary musical
Speaker 1: theater sound. And this is like his first thing. This
Speaker 1: really holds up. It's beautiful. It's one of his best
Speaker 1: I love pretty much everything he does. But you gotta
Speaker 1: make this end bow in YouTube, Like, if there's any
Speaker 1: free time, this is the one I'm dying to see
Speaker 1: that I'm dying to see Merrily We Roll Along, And
Speaker 1: I'm new Sean Hayes play that ran in Chicago, where
Speaker 1: a friend of mine said it was astounding, and it's
Speaker 1: about to open on Broadway. It's called Goodnight Oscar. I
Speaker 1: think Goodnight Oscar. Yeah, I hear, it's amazing. I also
Speaker 1: want to see that one. And also Jessica Chestein in
Speaker 1: a Dolls House my college friend Amy Herstock wrote the
Speaker 1: new translation adaptation, did well, I hear great things about it.
Speaker 1: Something happens at the end that is such a gag
Speaker 1: Like it's like, I can't even spoil it. But if
Speaker 1: anyone out there has seen Jessica Chestin in Nadalla's house,
Speaker 1: what happens at the end of the play, like the
Speaker 1: way that Nora like spoiler alert for a doll's house.
Speaker 1: But even though this is the hashtag actually smarted up episode,
Speaker 1: if you've made it this far in this episode of
Speaker 1: Last Culture, you know a doll's house, I'm gonna assume. Oh,
Speaker 1: but the way that Nora leaves Mama, it might as
Speaker 1: well have been a death drop. There is there a trapdoor,
Speaker 1: all of the witch throwing the beans and into the woods,
Speaker 1: just you know, a screech and a puff of smoke. Wait, really,
Speaker 1: did I just call it? Is that what happened? I
Speaker 1: can't confirm her denid trap, but your eyes went wide
Speaker 1: wide at the recommenition. Now, Matt, I have a question,
Speaker 1: do we think Annalie is like because this is her
Speaker 1: what's at least her second time doing sondheime, because she
Speaker 1: did Sunning the party. Yeah, she's like the new girlie
Speaker 1: or a new girl today. Yep. I think that is
Speaker 1: very exciting that there is. I don't even know if
Speaker 1: we can call her new anymore. She's like she is,
Speaker 1: of course, no, she's But what I think what Bowen
Speaker 1: is saying is like, there comes a time when like
Speaker 1: you become like, yes, musical theater beloved, and but you
Speaker 1: have done to Sonteime's faby, Yeah you saw him multiple times.
Speaker 1: It's basically like, what what's the status? Yes? And I
Speaker 1: think that's important. She're saying that in the same way
Speaker 1: that we refer to like Bernadette Patty ethel Bet, where
Speaker 1: we should start just saying Annalie maybe, which is crazy,
Speaker 1: and also Donna Murphy too, don't forget that conversation. Like, honestly,
Speaker 1: I will say this, if ever you see an interview
Speaker 1: with the musical theater actress and they say, well, the
Speaker 1: first time I met Steve and they referred to him
Speaker 1: as Steve, that's a tell. That is a huge talent.
Speaker 1: I think it is so funny when these women say
Speaker 1: Steve because it's just so familiar and it makes me laugh.
Speaker 1: But um, what I will say is that he definitely
Speaker 1: signed off on her casting and liked her casting. I
Speaker 1: believe I read something in the New York Times that
Speaker 1: said he was to see a reading of it and
Speaker 1: then of Sweeney Sweet. Oh yeah, yeah, Like this has
Speaker 1: been in development now for long enough that he was
Speaker 1: aware of it, knew of it, and signed off on it.
Speaker 1: But the interesting thing I found in that article was
Speaker 1: that this actually was his most personal piece. Yes, I
Speaker 1: was so surprised to read that. Yes, we're saying that,
Speaker 1: you know, Steve, this is the story of your life,
Speaker 1: and he maybe wasn't even conscious of that or didn't
Speaker 1: want to necessarily admit that. But I mean minus the
Speaker 1: eating people right exactly, besides the murder and the you know, annibalism. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and they having rumpled bed with a woman rumpled beddingized.
Speaker 1: But yeah, this idea that he had been done wrong
Speaker 1: by the world. M I'm not sure how I feel
Speaker 1: about his unfinished musical being staged. I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's hard. We'll see, we'll see. I don't know much
Speaker 1: about that. Actually, it's based on a like Bunuel short story.
Speaker 1: I might be wrong, it's like a Lorca Baby. It's
Speaker 1: based on a work of fiction, and he'd been working
Speaker 1: on it for a really long time. But I don't
Speaker 1: know much clearly more than we do. But I saw
Speaker 1: that headline too, and I was like, Okay, okay, let's
Speaker 1: reserve judgment. I guess we have the goal, and I'm
Speaker 1: actually gonna have some goal right now. I have to
Speaker 1: ask you a question, and I think it's going to
Speaker 1: be a pointed question. All right, here's the thing I
Speaker 1: have to say to you. So I was at the
Speaker 1: Kennedy Center and I watched your set, just no big deal,
Speaker 1: you were hosting your show. I came because I was
Speaker 1: headlining with Henry the next night, and I watched your
Speaker 1: set and you were performing a song and you said
Speaker 1: there was a lyric in your song that was like,
Speaker 1: and some people watch Housewives sort of roll with your
Speaker 1: eyes at me. And I thought, this, motherfucker, yes, is
Speaker 1: being elitist towards me. So here, I was performing the
Speaker 1: Noel Coward classic Why Do the Wrong People Travel? But
Speaker 1: having been written in the middle of the twentieth century,
Speaker 1: there are some lyrics that are quite dated, of course,
Speaker 1: and so I replaced some with more updated lyrics. However,
Speaker 1: I think you're playing that quote out of context because
Speaker 1: the full line was while the right people stay back
Speaker 1: home and watch Real Housewives. So in the dichotomy of
Speaker 1: the wrong people traveling and the right people staying back home, you,
Speaker 1: my friend, are the right people so resting, you should
Speaker 1: be out there travel. Okay, good. Here's my question to you.
Speaker 1: What's the quote unquote trashiest or lowest culture that you enjoy?
Speaker 1: I want to know in your opinion. I mean, I
Speaker 1: was an early Housewives watcher, but I kind of gave
Speaker 1: up on that. Love is blind. I mean, okay, you know, okay, wait,
Speaker 1: it's not trashy. But my friend Alan, I have to
Speaker 1: shout out The Traders the best reality competition television show
Speaker 1: I've seen in at least ten years. I binged it.
Speaker 1: I savored every second of that show. The Traders. Wait.
Speaker 1: Not to like connect too many dots, but the fact
Speaker 1: that you're good friends with Alan and that you officiated
Speaker 1: Alex Wagner's wedding between the most I'm the Traders. Oh
Speaker 1: my god. As a child, I wanted so badly to
Speaker 1: be on The Mole back when Anderson Cooper hosted it.
Speaker 1: There's such a journey with the Mole for people our age.
Speaker 1: I think like The Mole hit at a very specific
Speaker 1: important time. I hope I'm not divulging any secrets here,
Speaker 1: but I actually had a conversation with Alex Wagner when
Speaker 1: she was considering whether or not to take the Mole
Speaker 1: and it would have meant going to Australia and quarantining
Speaker 1: and being away from her kids. And I was like,
Speaker 1: do you have to do this? I do not delude
Speaker 1: myself into thinking that is why. She said yes, I'm sure,
Speaker 1: But I was like, this is the dream, this is dream.
Speaker 1: She and I were on the same episode of Seth Myers,
Speaker 1: and I was like, I have to go say hello
Speaker 1: to her. I'm such a huge fan. And so we
Speaker 1: talked and yes, she I think she even volunteered that.
Speaker 1: She was like, I was really debating going, but I
Speaker 1: think she was saying, like I was so much happy
Speaker 1: that I was in Australia instead of America during any races.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, I think the insurrection. I think January six,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, she was in Australia shooting the Mole.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm getting weird when you're a news person. So
Speaker 1: NPR was going through budget cuts then, is going through
Speaker 1: budget cuts now? I was on furlough on January sixth,
Speaker 1: and so I was literally not allowed to check my
Speaker 1: work email or do any work. And it was so
Speaker 1: strange as a news person to be watching what was
Speaker 1: unfolding and just thinking like, should I be doom scrolling
Speaker 1: right now? Should I turn off the TV and go
Speaker 1: for a walk? Should I like, I can't do what
Speaker 1: I would instinctually go do, which is like help tell
Speaker 1: the story of what's happening. And I just found myself
Speaker 1: so kind of like a drift and at a loss
Speaker 1: for like, how can I be helpful? How can I
Speaker 1: be useful, Which, frankly is one of the things that
Speaker 1: I love about being a journalist is that whenever there's
Speaker 1: a moment when it's like everybody wants to do something
Speaker 1: and doesn't know what to do, as a journalist, I
Speaker 1: know what my job is, what I'm supposed to do.
Speaker 1: And so that was a strange experience for me on
Speaker 1: January sixth, especially as it was unfolding like a thirty
Speaker 1: minute walk from my house not that far from Capitol Hill.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, it was a tragic moment. It was
Speaker 1: horrible for democracy, for society, people physically and emotionally and
Speaker 1: psychologically suffered. For me, as a journalist who wasn't able
Speaker 1: to practice journalism. It was just it was very odd. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I can't imagine because something had to kick in, but
Speaker 1: then you have to like completely stifle it. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: at some point when I've been listening to NPR with
Speaker 1: CNN on mute for the last two hours, it's like, well,
Speaker 1: do I turn away now, Like do I go take
Speaker 1: the dogs for a walk and listen to Less culturestas
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, there were no help. Yes, the answer
Speaker 1: to that question is always yes. What if literally like
Speaker 1: all the journalists had been locked out of their accounts
Speaker 1: and only Lost Culture could report On January sixth, it
Speaker 1: was just like, we are here on the ground and
Speaker 1: what we're seeing is just disgusting. I would love to
Speaker 1: hear that commentary. People would pay money for that commentary
Speaker 1: that honestly though, like in a real way, like to
Speaker 1: be have to be a spect theater. There is really
Speaker 1: tough when you have the talent and you have the
Speaker 1: experience that you have to be able to like, you know,
Speaker 1: especially I remember watching it and there was an element
Speaker 1: of knowing exactly what was happening, but being so confused.
Speaker 1: And I think that that is because we've never seen
Speaker 1: anything like this before in the United States, right, and
Speaker 1: so it does need to be explained, like what we
Speaker 1: are seeing is an insurrection. This is the definition of
Speaker 1: what that means. This is how this could end, This
Speaker 1: is how much danger these people are in. So it
Speaker 1: does fall to people like you to be able to
Speaker 1: get that information across. And I will also say one
Speaker 1: of the most moving and stirring parts of your book,
Speaker 1: Best Strangers in the World, is you talking about your
Speaker 1: experience with nine to eleven and literally speaking on the
Speaker 1: phone to people in a journalistic capacity who then would
Speaker 1: perish you know, I guess minutes or hours later. Just
Speaker 1: that had to be that has to I don't stay
Speaker 1: with you forever is not even the words. It has
Speaker 1: to be formative as a person, well, it was formative.
Speaker 1: I mean at that point I was sort of the
Speaker 1: most junior person on the staff of Morning Edition. I
Speaker 1: was working attempt contract. I was working overnights from one
Speaker 1: to nine am, and I was actually going to go
Speaker 1: home early because I couldn't stay awake. And then we
Speaker 1: started seeing smoke coming out of the World Trade Center,
Speaker 1: and so my job was just to call people in
Speaker 1: the towers and put them on the air and say
Speaker 1: what are you seeing? And what I realized that day
Speaker 1: was so at that point, Bob Edwards was the host
Speaker 1: of Morning Edition, and he was not a person who
Speaker 1: spoke more than he needed to. He was a very
Speaker 1: kind of taciturn person. He's still alive. He is a
Speaker 1: very taciturn person. And I remember when we went off
Speaker 1: the air at Knew that day and handed off to
Speaker 1: the next show, he said, in these moments when everyone
Speaker 1: is wondering what they can do, we know what our
Speaker 1: role is. We know what our job is. And I
Speaker 1: remember everybody was lining up to donate blood, and as
Speaker 1: a gay man, I was not allowed to donate blood,
Speaker 1: and I was like, well, here something I can do.
Speaker 1: And so I would come in for the next several nights.
Speaker 1: I would like work from nine pm to twelve noon,
Speaker 1: and one of my jobs was to write short obituaries
Speaker 1: that would be slotted in when segments came in like
Speaker 1: a little bit short, and so they were like thirty
Speaker 1: seconds to a minute. And I remember I found the
Speaker 1: story of these two men and their son who their
Speaker 1: son was a toddler. He was one of the youngest
Speaker 1: people to die that day, and they were flying back
Speaker 1: from a vacation, and I remember writing an obituary for
Speaker 1: the three of them and referring to them as a family,
Speaker 1: and just thinking, you know, that is something that somebody
Speaker 1: else in this position might not have done. And I
Speaker 1: felt like, even though it was this tiny, little thirty
Speaker 1: second thing that just slotted into like a hole in
Speaker 1: the show, I felt like I had left a small
Speaker 1: fingerprint on the record of that day, and I thought like,
Speaker 1: this is a way I can be useful. This is
Speaker 1: a way I can actually help shape the stories we tell,
Speaker 1: not as an activist, as a journalist, but as a
Speaker 1: journalist who brings my own experience and history and identity
Speaker 1: to the world. So yeah, I was a really profound
Speaker 1: turning point from unbelievable. You write in the book about
Speaker 1: how like starting out you would work on obituary packages.
Speaker 1: That is like a fun peculiarity about like journalism that
Speaker 1: I find interesting is that like when like our friend
Speaker 1: Henry Melcher started working at MSNBC and when we're in college,
Speaker 1: mat that was like one of the things I learned.
Speaker 1: He was like, no, like it's so funny in these
Speaker 1: and like my sister would like come home from like
Speaker 1: Bloomberg or whatever. She was working for Bloomberger at the time,
Speaker 1: and she was like, yeah, like all these news networks
Speaker 1: have these opit packages. Do you think that probably like
Speaker 1: honed some. Absolutely. The great thing about an obituary is
Speaker 1: it's basically a profile. Yeah, and journalists write profiles all
Speaker 1: the time, but this is a profile that you don't
Speaker 1: have to do on deadline because the person is still alive.
Speaker 1: And for me, as a beginning journalist, it gave me
Speaker 1: an opportunity to work with NPR editors on important stories
Speaker 1: that didn't step on any beat. Reporters toes and so
Speaker 1: I could like gain those skills and build that expertise
Speaker 1: and do as many edits as I needed to do
Speaker 1: for stories that you know, might air a month or
Speaker 1: a year or five years down the road. And it
Speaker 1: also helped the editors get to know my skills and
Speaker 1: my interests so that later on they would start pitching
Speaker 1: freelance stories to me that were not obituaries that were
Speaker 1: on deadline. And so it was a really important stepping
Speaker 1: stone for me along the way. And as I write
Speaker 1: in the book, Hume Cronan was like one of the
Speaker 1: first big ones who you know, he was married to
Speaker 1: Jessica Tandy. They both won like a lifetime achievement, Tony.
Speaker 1: I think they were on Broadway and a million things.
Speaker 1: They were in films like Cocoons. Yeah, and so yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll always think fondly of Hume Cronin, who had the
Speaker 1: courtesy of dying shortly after I did that obituary, so
Speaker 1: it actually got on the air. So nice of him
Speaker 1: to sit on the shelf. You got published. Yeah exactly. Wait,
Speaker 1: I'm not done with the Mole and Traders. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: yes about it. First of all, Alex Wagner energetically is
Speaker 1: so perfect for that job. But then another person I
Speaker 1: could see being good at something like that is you.
Speaker 1: I would, in a heartbeat, in a heartbeat, anyone who
Speaker 1: is making a glam reality show set in some castle. Look,
Speaker 1: I don't want to be eating worms. I'm not interested
Speaker 1: in having Cockroe to spill on my head. But put
Speaker 1: me in some like fancy James Bondish get up and
Speaker 1: telling twenty desperate people what to do. Yes, signed the up. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Like what I had heard was Alan had the best
Speaker 1: time doing it, Like Henry was saying that. He came
Speaker 1: back and was like, you know, I'm not going to
Speaker 1: do my Alan coming. But it was, you know, like
Speaker 1: he was he was so great that he had the
Speaker 1: best time, and that he was thrilled that they were
Speaker 1: getting a second season and the absolutely Yeah. And you
Speaker 1: know most of those clothes were his really yeah. I
Speaker 1: mean like would add a sash or a beret, roach
Speaker 1: or something, but like they were mostly his clothes. But
Speaker 1: something tells me for season two they're likely to have
Speaker 1: a bigger costume budget, given that there was an entire
Speaker 1: New York Times feature just about the clothes that Alan
Speaker 1: wears in that show. Yeah, but that is like an
Speaker 1: important like it's not even like an ornamental thing. It's
Speaker 1: like it's an important thing about the visual language of
Speaker 1: that show, which makes it to stink a little everything else.
Speaker 1: The thing that kind of burst the bubble a little
Speaker 1: bit for me was learning that none of them actually
Speaker 1: slept at the castle. They slept at a like crappy
Speaker 1: airport hotel offsite. I was gonna say, that makes total sense,
Speaker 1: That makes total sense, but also it makes it seem
Speaker 1: so much less fun. And Alan had a little cottage
Speaker 1: that was not far from the castle. Nobody slept in
Speaker 1: the castle. Rummer, Yeah, there is a level of like
Speaker 1: you want to believe they're all in there, but then
Speaker 1: I guess that's easier to produce what everyone would tell
Speaker 1: the movie magic. Oh but also I heard that one
Speaker 1: of them who made it to the finals. I'm not
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is public. I don't think
Speaker 1: it's a secret, but I'm just not going to name
Speaker 1: them tested positive for COVID on literally the day everybody
Speaker 1: was supposed to fly home, and then had to quarantine
Speaker 1: in that shitty hotel for another like ten days or
Speaker 1: two weeks. Yeah, after they had wrapped on this on
Speaker 1: the show, after they had rapped on the show, I
Speaker 1: thought you were going to say that they should say
Speaker 1: tested positive and showed up that I want to find
Speaker 1: out if I win. Although one contestant tested positive in
Speaker 1: the middle of the run and just closed on their Instagram.
Speaker 1: That that's why they like dropped out and disappeared. That's why. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's crazy that it tests positive way through the run
Speaker 1: and like no one else that's and that sucks. It's
Speaker 1: giving Matt Rodgers in Mexico City. I actually did get
Speaker 1: COVID one month ago thanks to Alan's husband. We all
Speaker 1: had like an upstate cat Skills weekend, and I was
Speaker 1: so grateful that it happened one month before my book
Speaker 1: tour because I was able to host All Things Considered
Speaker 1: from home. I sounded like I had a cold, but
Speaker 1: I felt fine. And now I'm like maximum antibodies, kingponging
Speaker 1: from city to city, shaking hands with strangers and not
Speaker 1: worrying about getting COVID. That's are you still enjoying? And
Speaker 1: this is like obviously like don't You're never going to
Speaker 1: say no, but like, are you still invigorated and excited
Speaker 1: about All Things Considered? It's been gears And I wonder,
Speaker 1: like because whenever you do something for a very long time,
Speaker 1: and like it has an identity and it has a
Speaker 1: way that it's done. I know us with this podcast,
Speaker 1: we're always trying to find ways to make it exciting
Speaker 1: for us and we've succeeded. Like are you still succeeding
Speaker 1: in doing that? Here's what I love about hosting All
Speaker 1: Things Considered? Is it even after six years? I know
Speaker 1: when I wake up each morning that I'm going to
Speaker 1: go to bed knowing about something that I didn't know
Speaker 1: when I started the day. Like I can be curious,
Speaker 1: I can ask questions I can follow my curiosity wherever
Speaker 1: it may lead, and the show is formatted so that
Speaker 1: I can do some big, ambitious project where I travel
Speaker 1: from Senegal to Morocco to Spain, connecting the dots between
Speaker 1: climate change, migration and extremism. And then I can interview
Speaker 1: the incredible South African pop star Nakane about their new album, which,
Speaker 1: by the way, is my soundtrack of the Summer. It
Speaker 1: comes out later. Nakane. They released an album a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago that included an amazing track called New
Speaker 1: Brighton that was a collab with Annie and it was
Speaker 1: just a new album. It's called Bastard Jargon. I'm obsessed.
Speaker 1: There are a couple tracks out already. One of the
Speaker 1: tracks is a collab with Perfume Genius. Put it on.
Speaker 1: It will make your life. Were summer anthem, queer summer,
Speaker 1: non binary, South African influenced London based pop dance extravaganza.
Speaker 1: You're gonna love it? Wowkay damn. Anyway, So the point
Speaker 1: is hosting All Things Considered allows me to do both.
Speaker 1: And yes, I can be like hashtag actually smart, and
Speaker 1: then I can queen out with Nakane and a combination
Speaker 1: that's hard to find. Wow, this is very I'm gonna
Speaker 1: like really try to again connect dots. But this is
Speaker 1: on a meta level, Like I think this is like
Speaker 1: the thing about the book, the thing about you, is
Speaker 1: that there's so much like connective stuff here between, Like
Speaker 1: the way you're able to like bridge something from like
Speaker 1: the way you currently are now is like a journalist
Speaker 1: quote unquote like buttoned up gay guy in DC, but
Speaker 1: like you like trace it actually like your days in
Speaker 1: high school, like being like queer, even though like that
Speaker 1: wasn't the word you used back then. Yeah, to bridge
Speaker 1: that thing, and to bridge like the things between like
Speaker 1: all of your stories, and to bridge the thing between
Speaker 1: like you having these like journalistic boundaries and reconciling that
Speaker 1: with the fact that you have to be vulnerable on
Speaker 1: stage sometimes. That was my big takeaway of the book,
Speaker 1: is that like you can like really shift between these modes.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad to hear that that was what you
Speaker 1: took away from it, because I realized kind of in
Speaker 1: writing it that the through line of my whole life
Speaker 1: has been trying to make connections and trying to help
Speaker 1: people appreciate similarities and build bridges across chasms of difference,
Speaker 1: and the quality that I admire most in people is
Speaker 1: the ability to make those unexpected connections, bring people together,
Speaker 1: introduce them, you know, build opportunities for synthesis, and and
Speaker 1: so you know, like when I was in Mexico City
Speaker 1: and Henry said, you have to meet up with my
Speaker 1: friends Matt and Bowen, it was that kind of a
Speaker 1: thing where I was like, these different worlds coming together
Speaker 1: and interesting people connecting in a foreign place Like that
Speaker 1: is the thing that recharges my batteries. And so whether
Speaker 1: it's performing with Pink Martini or doing a show with
Speaker 1: Alan Coming, or reporting the news on the radio from
Speaker 1: a war zone, I'm just really glad that's what you
Speaker 1: took away from the book, because I feel like that
Speaker 1: is kind of the underlying like bass note of the
Speaker 1: whole thing. Code switching, international icon, international codes. Wait a minute,
Speaker 1: the Queer Molest show should be called like code switch
Speaker 1: or something, you know what I mean? Bo our host
Speaker 1: Matt and I can ep or be in it. Can
Speaker 1: we please make this happen? Code Switch? That is the
Speaker 1: name of an NPR podcast. Damn shit fuck. That's all right.
Speaker 1: It can be a reality show too, It can totally
Speaker 1: be We just got to put an X in it somewhere,
Speaker 1: so it's different. Like here's what I'll say, because I'll
Speaker 1: like make a joke and be like, yeah, I want
Speaker 1: to go on Survivor. I actually want to go on Traders.
Speaker 1: I really want to be on Traders. Boh, And you'd
Speaker 1: be an amazing trader. I would not be an amazing trader.
Speaker 1: I would be an amazing faithful. You'd be incredible faithful.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing. I've played Mafia with friends over the
Speaker 1: course of an evening and I get so fucking stressed
Speaker 1: out and like my blood pressure rises and that's over,
Speaker 1: you know, two four hours. I try to imagine doing
Speaker 1: it over weeks, and I think I might literally have
Speaker 1: an aneurysm. That's why whenever the traders like that's why
Speaker 1: they all like fucking break down into sobs when they leave,
Speaker 1: especially the traders when they get like the ones who
Speaker 1: got found out spoiler alert, they're like sobbing by the
Speaker 1: time they go. I'm like, yes, because you've been holding
Speaker 1: you've been like holding it together. It's literally and you
Speaker 1: don't have any interaction with anyone else. Right when you
Speaker 1: were a trader, you were experiencing what it means to
Speaker 1: be posted. And I hope that the straight traders are
Speaker 1: really considering that what they're experiencing for two weeks many
Speaker 1: of us experienced for many years. And you need to
Speaker 1: write I write this. We need to see this published
Speaker 1: in the Atlantic, New York Magazine and the New York first.
Speaker 1: It's that good. First I'm going to publish it as
Speaker 1: a rule of culture. This is rule of culture number ninety.
Speaker 1: When you are a trader, you are and I know
Speaker 1: it eats them up because it's very hard. It's it's
Speaker 1: very hard, meaningful that the only non straight white male
Speaker 1: trader was three period. Like someone who like like is like,
Speaker 1: you know, visibly a very specific like identity. Let's say yep,
Speaker 1: and so she knows how to like huh in a
Speaker 1: way code switch? Maybe. Wow. Look, if you're going to
Speaker 1: write a think piece, you need more than one idea.
Speaker 1: So this is I like where this is going. First
Speaker 1: of all, co authored by line, he writes the foreword
Speaker 1: to the published piece. But no, but like I have
Speaker 1: to say, if these people on Traders did not know
Speaker 1: who Surree Fields was and what she was capable of,
Speaker 1: then that's your problem. She is an iconic four time
Speaker 1: survivor contestant who has been robbed of the win at
Speaker 1: least once in a real way. And I will say this,
Speaker 1: the most cathartic moment for someone who loves reality television
Speaker 1: was watching Surree Fields do that to Aria Leindike Junior.
Speaker 1: Because there is not a more unsung hero of reality
Speaker 1: television than Surree Fields, and there is not a more
Speaker 1: despicable act than the one that Ari lyoned, like Junior
Speaker 1: committed on his season of The Bachelor. So to watch
Speaker 1: that happen in realel so Ari basically proposed to one
Speaker 1: woman and then Becca, and then three weeks later, with
Speaker 1: the cameras in tow, came to our house and said,
Speaker 1: I I'm actually picking the other girl. And if you remember,
Speaker 1: Cecily did this on SNL, Cecily played this girl and
Speaker 1: they did a whole bit of like the cameras following around,
Speaker 1: like they were like outside the bathroom draw while she's
Speaker 1: sobbing and like Ari's there, like Becca, you have to
Speaker 1: come out and She's like fuck you. And basically that
Speaker 1: was as low as it possibly gets a show like
Speaker 1: The Bachelor. And so to watch the Refields look him
Speaker 1: in the eyes and said, you don't deserve this. And
Speaker 1: then do we think she knew that? Do we think
Speaker 1: she had seen that season of the Bachelor. I think
Speaker 1: she's seen everything. I don't think that's why she made
Speaker 1: the decision. I think she made the decision to be like,
Speaker 1: you're a trader because she was like, fuck you, you
Speaker 1: were not coming into the last second and splitting this
Speaker 1: money with me. This is my money. There was an
Speaker 1: interview where she was like, if it had been two
Speaker 1: million dollars, maybe I would have shared it, but two
Speaker 1: fifty k No, No, absolutely, they need to raise that
Speaker 1: prize pot too. I'll say, I agree. I want to
Speaker 1: start a go fund me to like but that's you
Speaker 1: want to be Cia. How much just how much does
Speaker 1: Sea give depends year to year? Do you know about this, Ari,
Speaker 1: I have no idea what you're talking about. I know
Speaker 1: who Sia is. I do not know about you know,
Speaker 1: the iconic Sia. She watches Survivor every season and just
Speaker 1: picks her favorite contestants and just sends them money Like
Speaker 1: that is a thing that is I And it started
Speaker 1: years ago when she came to like a like a
Speaker 1: Survivor finale reunion, and Jeff Probes was like, my friend
Speaker 1: Sia is in the audience and she loves the show
Speaker 1: and she wants to come on stage, and so she
Speaker 1: was and she just comes on stage with her wig
Speaker 1: and was like I love this shine. That was my um.
Speaker 1: But she was to do a better Cia than An Allen.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I can do Allan, but only in private and
Speaker 1: no one will ever know. Well, but basically, like, yes,
Speaker 1: CIA is like another prize pot that you can win.
Speaker 1: It's like if you impressa you get a good edit up.
Speaker 1: I love It's the wild card. It's the prize, the
Speaker 1: wild card to see a moment. And so Bond wants
Speaker 1: to be that for Traders. Yeah, I want to be
Speaker 1: the Traders. That is a whole waiting to be filled.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, period, honey. I hope Alex get to do
Speaker 1: another season of them. Do we know is the Mull renewed?
Speaker 1: I have no information on that. I feel like it
Speaker 1: was no information. I thought it was too I mean,
Speaker 1: here's the thing. It's weird because like Netflix is the
Speaker 1: Mole and Peacock is Traders. I do feel I felt
Speaker 1: more conversation around Traders. Oh absolutely. And also Traders was
Speaker 1: big fish, small pond. The Mole was a small fish,
Speaker 1: big pond, Like nobody was talking about Peacock before, say,
Speaker 1: and and this is such terrible synergy, but they did
Speaker 1: send me like a huge care package full of peacocks swag.
Speaker 1: And it's like and then literally Susan Rovener, head of NBC,
Speaker 1: emails me pictures of the wheelhouses of Miami. In the
Speaker 1: photos like they were like, it was the day I
Speaker 1: want to talking about how much I love Peacock. She like, Who's, like,
Speaker 1: thank you so much your photos from the like the
Speaker 1: Miami arena that we just shot today. Anyway, Oh what
Speaker 1: I want that? I want a care package from Peacock.
Speaker 1: I want a care package with those little packets you
Speaker 1: can throw into the fire to make it burn green
Speaker 1: or red. The drama of that so good. I love that.
Speaker 1: You guys need to watch UK Traders, I've heard. Yeah.
Speaker 1: UK Traders doesn't have Alan, but it has this other
Speaker 1: iconic woman hosting it. I'm forgetting her name. I'm losing
Speaker 1: her name, but she's like a thing in British culture.
Speaker 1: She's amazing. Wait are there reality stars in that one?
Speaker 1: Or no? It's all regular people, which I actually is
Speaker 1: My big note for US Traders is I think it
Speaker 1: should just be all reality people because I think that
Speaker 1: they get what's necessary of them. Oh, Claudio Winkleman is
Speaker 1: the host of UK Traders and she is a story
Speaker 1: that's never been told. I love her her bangs, I
Speaker 1: love it all. I love her energy. She's like Alan
Speaker 1: is very like dramatic, and Claudia is very British and god,
Speaker 1: I love that. So okay, we're gonna make code switch
Speaker 1: with an X. We can first option to peacock and
Speaker 1: after that we'll see where it cost. Yep. I love this, really,
Speaker 1: I actually love this. I think it's time for Bowen
Speaker 1: and I to co host a reality show. It's pastime.
Speaker 1: It is long past all three of us. I'm gonna say,
Speaker 1: I'm not entitled too much in this life and in work,
Speaker 1: but I think all three of us deserve to host
Speaker 1: that kind of show. Can I tell you I actually
Speaker 1: have a concept for this, Bowen and I'm gonna sideboat
Speaker 1: with you because I think I've come up with an
Speaker 1: idea for us to co host show. Yes, but it's
Speaker 1: really good and I actually do want to pitch it,
Speaker 1: and I think it's really good. This is I remember
Speaker 1: was it Otko who her? I don't think so hard.
Speaker 1: It was about friendship reality shows. Yeah, this is the
Speaker 1: show that she's been long. It's not necessarily that it's more,
Speaker 1: but there's it's a twist show. So it's like you
Speaker 1: think it's one thing and then it's another, like a
Speaker 1: Milf Manner exciting. I don't really it's like Milf Manner,
Speaker 1: I got it. Have you watched Milf Manner? You know,
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. I'm too afraid. I'm I'm like, it's
Speaker 1: it's gonna be too too disturbing, you know, it gets
Speaker 1: really it's the darkest version of what you think. It's
Speaker 1: gonna be very fast. It's hard to come back from
Speaker 1: abistle stuff like, yeah, truly abistle. Abyssle is a Yiddish
Speaker 1: word that means a little bit abistle, just a bistle.
Speaker 1: That's funny, just abistle, just a bistle. Also a front
Speaker 1: runner for the title of up. This episode's full of them.
Speaker 1: I think it's b I S S e L b
Speaker 1: I S E L. That's not what I thought I
Speaker 1: would have thought. B I S T L E. Oh,
Speaker 1: like a bristle without the R. And that's what gets me.
Speaker 1: Cut out the spelling be like a motherfucker is the
Speaker 1: book out now. It is yes audio book as well.
Speaker 1: I narrate the audio book. If you like me telling
Speaker 1: stories in your ears. You can get the best strangers
Speaker 1: in the world on audio book. And why wouldn't they
Speaker 1: want that? I mean, maybe because they get two hours
Speaker 1: of it every day on all things considered, but I
Speaker 1: don't know because they love Can I ask you a question,
Speaker 1: did you find the writing of the book a difficult process?
Speaker 1: I feel embarrassed saying this, but no, for me, it
Speaker 1: didn't think really really unenjoyable process. Um, it was just
Speaker 1: like one step at a time, one bit at a time,
Speaker 1: and then you know, I just gave myself permission to
Speaker 1: not be great in first draft, and then I would
Speaker 1: set it aside for a few weeks or months and
Speaker 1: go back and make it, you know, hopefully better. And
Speaker 1: I just right now feel so god like fortunate and
Speaker 1: satisfied to hear the way these stories are connecting with
Speaker 1: people and the people are finding meaning on them. It's
Speaker 1: really a very unusual experience for me that I'm kind
Speaker 1: of just trying to save her. It's really excellent. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think one of the big reasons people connect with
Speaker 1: you is that you find the angle that like cuts
Speaker 1: through the noise, and like the way you talked about
Speaker 1: Pulse was like the perfect example. It's like you did
Speaker 1: a story about like people going out the next day
Speaker 1: in Orlando to Parliament House. It's like, oh, but like
Speaker 1: what other what other news outlet is doing that? You know,
Speaker 1: Like it was probably just like several days, if not
Speaker 1: like a couple of weeks of coverage about like the
Speaker 1: victims obviously and like necessary story storytelling in that way.
Speaker 1: But like I think the fact that like you would
Speaker 1: go to like these ours in Orlando immediately after and
Speaker 1: like talk to people going and why is really beautiful.
Speaker 1: And I mean that particular story, like I knew what
Speaker 1: that place meant. Like I'd been going to gay bars
Speaker 1: my whole life. I had gone to gay bars in Orlando,
Speaker 1: and like it wasn't until the very end of that
Speaker 1: reporting experience where I was talking to this guy who
Speaker 1: was editor of the free gay weekly paper in Orlando.
Speaker 1: He has since passed away. His name was Billy Mains,
Speaker 1: but I was telling him like, oh, yeah, years ago,
Speaker 1: I went bar hupping in Orlando and I met these
Speaker 1: bartenders who were so sweet, and they took me out
Speaker 1: the next night and that had been twelve years before
Speaker 1: the Pulse nightclub shooting, and so I didn't remember the
Speaker 1: name of the bar, and I was sure that it
Speaker 1: had closed. But Billy Mains said what bar was it?
Speaker 1: And I said, I don't remember. I'm sure it's long closed.
Speaker 1: And he said, well, what was the layout, like? What
Speaker 1: did it look like? Because he lived in Orlando forever,
Speaker 1: and so I described what it looked like where you
Speaker 1: sort of walk in and there's a dance floor on
Speaker 1: your left and a sort of bar on your right,
Speaker 1: and he said that was Pulse. And I just in
Speaker 1: that moment, realized that like this place I had been
Speaker 1: reporting on all week that I knew I had some
Speaker 1: connection to, just from it being a gay bar, which
Speaker 1: is a place that I had spent so much time
Speaker 1: in my life, like, it was not only a place
Speaker 1: that I had an abstract connection to, it was a
Speaker 1: place that I had a personal, immediate connection too. And
Speaker 1: I looked on my phone for the name of that
Speaker 1: bartender who I had met twelve years earlier, and his
Speaker 1: name was in there with an email address that set
Speaker 1: at Pulse Orlando dot com. There were two bartenders, one
Speaker 1: had moved to Chicago, and was no longer working there.
Speaker 1: The other was still working at Pulse, not on the
Speaker 1: night that the massacre happened. But it just made me
Speaker 1: realize that, like as a journalist, I can approach stories
Speaker 1: as an outsider, and there's value to that, but also
Speaker 1: the experiences that I have, my life, my history, my
Speaker 1: perspective on the world is not something that I have
Speaker 1: to set aside and put in a box when I
Speaker 1: go out and tell stories. It's something that I can
Speaker 1: bring to the stories I tell that can make them
Speaker 1: richer and deeper and more nuanced and more meaningful, incredible,
Speaker 1: It gives you like the take that really does again
Speaker 1: like cut through something that like cuts through the din
Speaker 1: of like what everyone is already hearing over and over again.
Speaker 1: I just always ask myself, how can I make listeners
Speaker 1: who are busy doing other things hear this? How can
Speaker 1: I make them try to, you know, stay parked in
Speaker 1: the driveway even though they're late to pick up their
Speaker 1: kids or whatever the case may be, because they need
Speaker 1: to hear the end of the story. What's the way
Speaker 1: I can tell this story that people are going to say, Oh,
Speaker 1: I see what those people are going through and relate
Speaker 1: to them. And don't just see them as somebody other,
Speaker 1: somebody far away, somebody different, but somebody who I have
Speaker 1: a lot more in common with than I might realize.
Speaker 1: Do you consume a lot of other NPRS stuff like
Speaker 1: are you an NPR person outside of working there? Well,
Speaker 1: I graze widely. I mean I try to know what's
Speaker 1: on Morning Edition each day, and I try to this
Speaker 1: and all things considered every evening when I'm not hosting,
Speaker 1: And that's a total of like four hours of content.
Speaker 1: So the rest of the stuff that I consume is
Speaker 1: sort of a little bit of a lot of things.
Speaker 1: Gotcha you listen away way, don't tell me, just sure do.
Speaker 1: In fact, my Chicago book event is with Peter Sagel legend.
Speaker 1: I just had a baby, and he's so sweet and
Speaker 1: wonderful to do my book event with me even though
Speaker 1: he has a little tiny child. And King, I'm doing
Speaker 1: that show this week. You are, yeah, Chicago, Matt Rogers,
Speaker 1: Mary the lead? Is this your first time? Second time? Oh,
Speaker 1: We're gonna have so much fun. I love it. I
Speaker 1: love doing the show. They don't do well on it,
Speaker 1: but I think I bring a good energy. Bowen would
Speaker 1: absolutely slay it. I did it over zoom. But like
Speaker 1: the thing is, Um, you don't have to be good
Speaker 1: at it to have fun. No, no, it's a blast.
Speaker 1: People don't listen for the knowledge. That's not why people
Speaker 1: are tuning in and scheidenfreude. People also not knowing what
Speaker 1: the fuck is, which is not necessarily true. Um okay,
Speaker 1: So I think we have to segue into I don't
Speaker 1: Think so Honey, which is the segment of our podcast
Speaker 1: where Bowen Yang, Matt Rodgers, and the guests. On this
Speaker 1: episode it is Ari Shapiro. They all take one minute
Speaker 1: to rant it on something in culture that absolutely deserves
Speaker 1: a pulling down from the perch and a slapping in
Speaker 1: the head. I have something. It is topical. We haven't
Speaker 1: yet discussed this major moment in culture that is in process,
Speaker 1: but I have I don't think so honey about it.
Speaker 1: I know what this says, I intrinsically notes who I am.
Speaker 1: Do you know what this is? I can't wait. I
Speaker 1: think so yeah. I have a feeling this is Matt Rodgers.
Speaker 1: I don't think so honey. As time starts new, I
Speaker 1: don't think so honey. Your notes on the Era's set list,
Speaker 1: The Errors Tour setlist we're giving notes on it. Okay,
Speaker 1: I understand there are some odd choices Miss Americana and
Speaker 1: the Heartbreak prints as the opener, listen, all she wanted
Speaker 1: to say was it's been a long time, and then
Speaker 1: she segues into what should And I predicted that she
Speaker 1: would open this concert with months and Months and months
Speaker 1: ago summer. That is essentially the first song that opens
Speaker 1: the show. I don't want to hear that you miss
Speaker 1: Sparks Fly. We are getting the speak Now era across
Speaker 1: with Enchanted. She comes out in the blackgown, gives you
Speaker 1: the moment we have felt, the speak Now era. She
Speaker 1: gives you full on reputation. She gives you everything you
Speaker 1: need from en eighty nine, I don't want to hear
Speaker 1: from nine. We get all the hits. I don't want
Speaker 1: to hear that you miss the self titled. The self
Speaker 1: titled as an era is encompassed with Fearless. We don't
Speaker 1: need the self title. If you're lucky, maybe she'll give
Speaker 1: you Tim McGraw on that one song she does, which
Speaker 1: is a different song every single time. Era's toward no notes.
Speaker 1: I am watching on YouTube and going three times this summer.
Speaker 1: I don't think so one of your notes. That's one
Speaker 1: man in Vegas. She's saying our song. And you know what,
Speaker 1: maybe what I hope for everyone out there is that
Speaker 1: if they are the types of people that want another
Speaker 1: speak now moment, that she gives you sparks fly that
Speaker 1: who knows, maybe you'll even be the lucky one period
Speaker 1: that didn't even mean to do that. And also get
Speaker 1: dear John, I think back to December. I would love
Speaker 1: but there's so much acoustic, ready made stuff. Maybe you'll
Speaker 1: get one. But listen, it isn't the discourse. The point.
Speaker 1: Isn't the hating the point? You know? Yeah, And here's
Speaker 1: the thing. I am anti sicko fans. Okay, I believe
Speaker 1: that fandom is dangerous because I believe that fandom is dictatorship.
Speaker 1: And I believe that intense fandom actually defeats the purpose
Speaker 1: of even enjoying things, because if you can't actually swarm,
Speaker 1: if you can't talk about and enjoy and like pick
Speaker 1: apart the things you like and also drag and be
Speaker 1: a little nasty sometimes like you're all you are is
Speaker 1: just an unhelpful clabber on in discussion, and then it
Speaker 1: all gets like labber on, you're a clabber on. Okay,
Speaker 1: I couldn't find the word but the word sycophant. And
Speaker 1: I only have so many words that I say yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: but you know what I'm saying, No, totally, totally, And
Speaker 1: but I'm the kind of person I always have something
Speaker 1: to say. I always have that. I don't think there's
Speaker 1: ever been a tailor album or tailor moment in culture
Speaker 1: that I've not been like, this is great, but this like,
Speaker 1: I always have something to say with the aerostour, She's
Speaker 1: out there giving you three hours and fifteen minutes of
Speaker 1: constant entertainment, giving you the whole thing. She said, I
Speaker 1: know it was difficult to get these seats. I know
Speaker 1: it was difficult to get these tickets. I'm gonna make
Speaker 1: it a moment you'll never forget. I don't want to
Speaker 1: hear notes on a three hour and fifteen minutes set list.
Speaker 1: I just don't. Matt. I have a question for you
Speaker 1: for your three viewings of this performance. Do you have
Speaker 1: a plan for the scale of sobriety to anybriation, how
Speaker 1: you plan to experience each of the three You know,
Speaker 1: I think that what Bone and I have found recently
Speaker 1: is that mushrooms are our girl for all three or
Speaker 1: for one of the three or like or take them
Speaker 1: an one hour into the three hour set, Like, what's
Speaker 1: the strategy? What was our cocktail when we saw Chromatica?
Speaker 1: Chromatica was RUMs and cokes. It was RUMs and cokes,
Speaker 1: and then it was I think we got beers there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but we also had and what I mean by cocktail
Speaker 1: was drug cocktail. So we were a little bit I know,
Speaker 1: I know, I know, I know, I know, but it
Speaker 1: was rum and coke at the bar like pre game.
Speaker 1: And then we took like mushroom chocolates like before we
Speaker 1: got in the car. Yeah, and then once we got
Speaker 1: there we ordered beers. That was they were holes. That
Speaker 1: was the full journey. And I would describe the way
Speaker 1: we felt that Chromatica or should I say on Chromatica
Speaker 1: as one of the happiest nights in my life. Well
Speaker 1: then you gotta reapply that serum. Yeah. Yeah, I'm beyond
Speaker 1: excited for this. Like, and we haven't talked about Aerostaur,
Speaker 1: but it I've been watching the YouTube videos. It looks
Speaker 1: so fun. Wait, Bowen, was that what you thought Matt
Speaker 1: was gonna do? Was that where you thought he was going?
Speaker 1: He was gonna talk about the Gwyneth's trial. I thought
Speaker 1: it was like, oh my god, new episode. Start from here.
Speaker 1: Trial trial is its own episode like that to the
Speaker 1: Gills with the Gwyneth trial was such it was like
Speaker 1: lost half a day skiing, well, I lost half a
Speaker 1: day sking what was your name? Christen? Christ I was
Speaker 1: gonna say. I was gonna say, Kristen, you skied into
Speaker 1: my fucking back. Is the new from Aaron Brockovich, That
Speaker 1: asshole faston my fucking nap. You ski directly into my
Speaker 1: fu bang back. What a legend. It was unbelievable to consume.
Speaker 1: And it never stopped, like the hits kept coming all
Speaker 1: day when she was on trial. And I don't think
Speaker 1: it's over right, like I think it's currently maybe maybe,
Speaker 1: but it's the apple. Martin hasn't yet been called to
Speaker 1: the stand. They will live forever in our hearts. It
Speaker 1: will live. I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that it's
Speaker 1: happening that they allowed cameras in the courtroom. I'm grateful
Speaker 1: they didn't inflict those courtroom sketch artists on us. No, no,
Speaker 1: we don't want to see Gwyneth dune and wax pass
Speaker 1: stelt chalk. She I don't think she did. I think
Speaker 1: she wanted the cameras in there. Yeah good. I think
Speaker 1: she said, everyone looking, how ridiculous this is. She knows
Speaker 1: her audience, she knows how to play to them. Unbelievable.
Speaker 1: But wow, I understand why you thought that. Bow And
Speaker 1: it really shouldn't have been that. But I have to say,
Speaker 1: like people discussing what they're missing from the aerostore of
Speaker 1: a three hour, fifteen minute performance, I'm like, you, guys,
Speaker 1: come on, she can't do the full discography. She cannot,
Speaker 1: All right, So, bow and Yang, are you ready for
Speaker 1: your I don't think so, honey. I am okay, this
Speaker 1: is Bowen yangs. I don't think so, honey. His time
Speaker 1: starts now. I don't think so, honey. A bookmark made
Speaker 1: of metal, Oh you mean a nice you mean a
Speaker 1: switch blade? I was reading I've been reading very recently,
Speaker 1: including with Ari's book, with a metallic bookmark that I'm
Speaker 1: not going to name the company that makes them, but
Speaker 1: they might as well have been Lockheed Martin, because these
Speaker 1: are weapons that can kill. These our weapons that can
Speaker 1: take lives. And I had many close calls with this
Speaker 1: blade of a bookmark, and I said enough, I posted
Speaker 1: in the hotel trash bin, which is we've discussed on
Speaker 1: this podcast. Those hotel trash kins are too small to realize.
Speaker 1: This is a sharp spin. This is for needles. This
Speaker 1: is for bookmarks that are knives. And if you're making
Speaker 1: bookmarks with that are metallic, there are going to be casualties.
Speaker 1: Someone's going to die and there will be consequences period.
Speaker 1: Trust trust you will be done with blocking Martin, stop
Speaker 1: it with these bookmarks. Any company that's making metallic bookmarks
Speaker 1: is locking. Did TSA let you through with that? Somehow?
Speaker 1: It was in my carry on? And know it's like,
Speaker 1: how is this? I can kill someone with this? I
Speaker 1: will kill someone with this. This is going to Cuba,
Speaker 1: Jesus in a war zone. You could like perform surgery
Speaker 1: with it. That's a scalpel owen Hunt probably performed surgery
Speaker 1: that I'm I guess you don't watch Gray's Anatomy Me. No, no,
Speaker 1: not even during the Golden Age when it actually was prestige.
Speaker 1: I actually did not. I am so starry to disappoint
Speaker 1: you as a Pacific Northwesterner. I know, I know, I know,
Speaker 1: I watched Portlandia. Does that count as a Pacific Northwest show, Yes, desolutely?
Speaker 1: Is that from an earlier era at Twin Peaks? Also?
Speaker 1: You know, yes, oh yeah, isn't X Files around that area?
Speaker 1: I mean, I watched it when I was a child,
Speaker 1: but I don't remember where it was set. I feel
Speaker 1: like X Files would make more sense to be in
Speaker 1: set in like DC, right because they're dealing with sensitive
Speaker 1: information those the later seasons. Okay, I will say I
Speaker 1: did try to watch X Files once from the beginning,
Speaker 1: and I was like, at a different time, it was different.
Speaker 1: But they still be making them all, right, do they really? Yeah?
Speaker 1: There's like every now and then they'll be like an
Speaker 1: X Files movie and everyone's like, oh great, and then
Speaker 1: like that. I guess I don't think there's been one
Speaker 1: for a while. They're not okay, Yeah, I don't know
Speaker 1: if that's true. Every once in a while, like in
Speaker 1: two thousand and one and two thousand and five, I
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, like constantly always in the news,
Speaker 1: it's like and the new X Files movie is right
Speaker 1: around the corner, and I'm always like, huh, you're thinking
Speaker 1: of scream. I think, yeah, that's what it is. Okay,
Speaker 1: So Ari, this is the most Are you ready for you?
Speaker 1: I don't think so, honey. I'm ready, I'm ready. Okay,
Speaker 1: this is Ari Shapiro's I don't think so, honey, A
Speaker 1: very exciting moment in time, and his time starts now.
Speaker 1: I don't think so, honey. Strangers going out of their
Speaker 1: way to tell me that I sound sick on the radio.
Speaker 1: If you show up to a party and you feel like,
Speaker 1: maybe I shouldn't go to this party. I'm a little
Speaker 1: worn out. It's been a rough week. And you get
Speaker 1: to that party and the host of that party greets
Speaker 1: you at the door and says, girl, you look tired.
Speaker 1: Do you really want to hear that from the host
Speaker 1: of your party. No, this is the same thing, but
Speaker 1: coming from strangers. If I'm congested on the radio, girl,
Speaker 1: I know that I am congested on the radio. And
Speaker 1: unless you were reaching out to actively, Uber Eats, Matsible
Speaker 1: soup to my house, and no, I am not giving
Speaker 1: you my home address. I don't need you to inform
Speaker 1: me of that which I'm already aware. And furthermore, if
Speaker 1: I am hosting with a cold, I am doing so
Speaker 1: from a home and you are getting a free product.
Speaker 1: It is public radio. Yes I know you can donate
Speaker 1: to your local public radio station, but you know ninety
Speaker 1: percent of listeners do not. I just made up that statistic,
Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure it's true. So appreciate what you're
Speaker 1: getting for free, even if you're getting it with a
Speaker 1: little bit of a raspy cough and a little bit
Speaker 1: of congestion. Because I know that I'm hosting with a cold,
Speaker 1: and I don't need you to tell me. I don't
Speaker 1: think so, honey, and that and that's one minute, very
Speaker 1: well done. Do you get that when you're hosting the
Speaker 1: podcast with a cold? Do you get readers? Katie's publicist,
Speaker 1: you sound sick? Thanks, I was unaware. Appreciate the info.
Speaker 1: What I got recently was it sounds like Matt Rogers
Speaker 1: has a cocaine problem. Actually, I do kind of appreciate that.
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of hilarious. I was like, I
Speaker 1: literally responded. I was like, I don't have a cocaine problem,
Speaker 1: thank you very much. I have a contained solution. Yeah. Period.
Speaker 1: And then they were like, oh, well it sounds so.
Speaker 1: I guess you just have a habit that you're on
Speaker 1: top of them. And I was like, wow, these dms again,
Speaker 1: I was like I can't believe this. I was like,
Speaker 1: if you must know, I've been sobbing for months, that's
Speaker 1: why I sound nasal cocaine. You don't need to say that.
Speaker 1: It's so wild. I feel like you two could probably
Speaker 1: relate to that. I felt like, absolutely, I'm aware. I
Speaker 1: am aware when I sound less than my best and
Speaker 1: your y'all's noting it for me is not appreciated as
Speaker 1: you literally had COVID nineteen. I literally had was hosting
Speaker 1: from home and when people were like, you sound like
Speaker 1: you shouldn't be on the Arrow's like, no shit, you know,
Speaker 1: I guess I'm kind of like, I'm really happy that
Speaker 1: you didn't get COVID that day. We were in boyfriendship,
Speaker 1: and I'm really happy you didn't get it. But that
Speaker 1: makes me feel like I have like limptic COVID. What
Speaker 1: does that mean My COVID wasn't powerful? Oh oh, I see,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, My COVID wasn't coming
Speaker 1: out of my body like that girl. You're sad that
Speaker 1: you didn't give someone else COVID. I'm not just someone else.
Speaker 1: It would have bonded our friendship. It would have cemented
Speaker 1: our meat cute story and then after we went shopping
Speaker 1: together we got COVID. I know. I was like, I
Speaker 1: swear I know you have COVID. Now, I was like,
Speaker 1: because I literally I think, oh yeah, I remember. I
Speaker 1: started to feel awful, like right after and then took
Speaker 1: a test and I was like, oh god, I have
Speaker 1: to Ari Shapiro that I gave him curled. Nobody was
Speaker 1: surprised to get a text from you saying I have COVID.
Speaker 1: We all know how that New Year's that New Year's
Speaker 1: trip went. It's like, yeah, well that's what comes of it.
Speaker 1: Tame though, honestly, were we not on a scale like
Speaker 1: oh that night we were pretty tame? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true. Same we had lovely cocktails, yeah, and sushi.
Speaker 1: This was coming off of Omicron. Now this is like
Speaker 1: still Omicron is still kind of in the air. It
Speaker 1: was the Winter Surge. Yeah, it was that time. That
Speaker 1: was when I guess, you know, one million people got
Speaker 1: it all at once. Yeah, you're one in a million,
Speaker 1: Matt Rogers. You are because you not only didn't get it,
Speaker 1: not only didn't contract COVID that day, but happened to
Speaker 1: be you. And you've written this incredible book and it's
Speaker 1: called The Best Strangers in the World and it's stories
Speaker 1: from a life spent listening, which I think is beautiful.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. We absolutely loved it and we've
Speaker 1: loved having you. I have loved this conversation the best
Speaker 1: ninety minutes of this entire book tour. That is really hyperbolic.
Speaker 1: Name one person that this was more fun to do
Speaker 1: than talk to that you sent me to call them?
Speaker 1: Absolutely not, this is absolutely we're messy here. I want
Speaker 1: you to name one person on the tour. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: just whisper it really quietly, so that with your full throat.
Speaker 1: But wow, thank you so much. Pick up the book
Speaker 1: by the audio book. It's a really special one. You're
Speaker 1: not going to regret. I really was just like, what
Speaker 1: what a Gordon in Merching Greeds? Thank you? Everybody check
Speaker 1: it up and we Bowen Yang and I we had
Speaker 1: every episode of with a song and it's true say
Speaker 1: it's a cruise. He gave the thumbs up on it.
Speaker 1: And if you want to hear more of that, you'll
Speaker 1: see the Era's tour. It's the first song, Bye Bye
Speaker 1: Bye