1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Annie, and this is Bridgett, and you're 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: listening to stuff mom never told you. Today we are 3 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: talking about another important aspect of my nerd life, which 4 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: is gaming, and specifically female gaming and specifically online gaming 5 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,199 Speaker 1: and what it's like for women. What are your favorite games? Annie, Oh? 6 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: I am a big RPG role playing game person, so 7 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: I really loved The Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts BioShock, 8 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: which I guess is I'm also a first person shooter, 9 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: which makes me kind of an outlier because women aren't 10 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 1: traditionally big into those, But I really love BioShock as 11 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: an evil and The Last of Us is like my favorite. 12 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: And Kristen and Caroline did two part episode on kind 13 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: of the whole state of air is of the video 14 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: game industry a while back, and we're going to be 15 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: rerunning those soon, so keep it keep an ear out 16 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: for that. I wanted to include listener Emma. She suggested 17 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: this to us. She emailed us a message, and I 18 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 1: wanted to read a bit of it at the top here. 19 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: I wrote this email because the Action Fixture episode that 20 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: y'all did, as well as several of your discussions about 21 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: violence towards women, got me thinking about how I have 22 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: slowly distanced myself from the video game community over time 23 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: because of the harassment that I have faced as a 24 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: female gamer, as well as the industry's lack of caring 25 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: when it comes to harassment and violence towards women, as 26 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: well as the continuous glorification of multiple forms of violence 27 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: against women. Just check out the game Agony and the 28 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 1: rape scene that was removed. Many male gamers seem to 29 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: think that, because they also face harassment, yelling slurs at 30 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: each other, et cetera, that the harassment female gamers face 31 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: is on the same level. And I want to say 32 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: a wholeheartedly that being privately messaged to send nude photos 33 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: are hearing men try to basically have phone sex with 34 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: you when you're on MIC requires an unfair amount of 35 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: inner g on our parts to tolerate if we want 36 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: to continue playing the games we love. Agreed. Something I 37 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: really want to parse out from that message. First of all, Emma, 38 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: thank you for writing in. But it is different. It's 39 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: different when someone says, hey, face, you did a bad 40 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: job at this thing in the game. That's different. Then 41 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to send you a private message and ask 42 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: you to send me pictures of your breasts. That's very different. 43 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 1: And so people who would argue that it's a similar 44 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: kind of harassment that both men and women face in 45 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: these gaming communities, that's just willful ignorance because it's so different, right, 46 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: And like Emma sort of pointed out the trash talking 47 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: men get when gaming, that that's like very very different 48 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 1: than a solicitation of nudes or rape threats or death 49 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: threats of you and your children. And a lot of 50 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: female gamers have pointed out that, hey, we like trash 51 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: talking too if it's based on skill, but if you're 52 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: going to base it on gender, that's different and that's 53 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: not not fun at all. I gave up online gaming 54 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: after kind of my attempt at appearing gender neutral didn't 55 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: work out, and that is a common strategy for women online. 56 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: Did you have a mail or genderless avatar? Yeah? Yeah, 57 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: I didn't ever add a picture my name, gave no 58 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: hint one way or the other, but I don't know. 59 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: Somehow it always seemed to come out. And this is 60 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: a plot point and ready player one actually for anyone 61 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: who's seen or read that. Another strategy is to never 62 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: use the microphone, which sucks because the microphone is meant 63 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: to make things easier and kind of enhance your gaming experience. 64 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: But as a woman, well, if you're if you're trying 65 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: to avoid being known as a woman, you will not 66 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: use it. So I never used it. You could do 67 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: what's the voice modification thing they use in the movie Scream. 68 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: It's like I'm playing video, I'm playing you know, Last 69 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: of Us with the guy from Scream. Actually the killer 70 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: was a woman. Wait spoiler alert for Scream if you 71 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: haven't seen it, it's been out for tick twenty years. 72 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: So also there's like a lot of killers. Who knows 73 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: which one we're talking Okay. Also a point I did 74 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: want to say that I, uh, some places, some online 75 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: spaces and games do have from what I've read, very 76 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: lovely online community. So this is a big brusher painting 77 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: with and there are spaces that are not this way. 78 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: I have heard kind of in an interesting benevolent sexism 79 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: thing where some people are like, well, I like it 80 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: when people find out I'm a woman because the men 81 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 1: go out of their way to be super nice to 82 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: me in the game, and I'm like, okay, uh so yes, 83 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,679 Speaker 1: those things exist, and you can love something and critique 84 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: it as we've said before on here. Yes, I know 85 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: someone out there is going to be listening and thinking, like, 86 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: why are you trashing video games? I love video games 87 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,119 Speaker 1: from trash him. Just because you have a critique about 88 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: gaming or game culture doesn't mean you're not a gamer, 89 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: doesn't mean you're not a fan. It's okay to critique 90 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: art media, whatever, whatever we consume. It's okay to critique 91 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: it and still like it. Yeah, and I would. I 92 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: would argue that you're trying to make it better, You're 93 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: trying to make it more than it is right now. Yeah, 94 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: because if you really love gaming, you want it to 95 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: be as good as it can be. Yes. I want 96 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: to be able to use the microphone and not worry 97 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: about some guy of ex sex. I can't believe I 98 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: even have to worry about that, but apparently apparently we do. 99 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: And Emma and I aren't alone in our abandoning of 100 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: online games in the face of harassment. We found story 101 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: after story, message board after message board of women sharing 102 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: their experiences with sexual harassment when gaming online. A twenty 103 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 1: sixteen study published by Media and Society found that quote 104 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: both general and sexual harassment predict women's withdrawal from online games. 105 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: Sexual harassment, but not general harassment, leads to rumination and 106 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: subsequent withdraw Sexual harassment, perhaps unsurprisingly, seemed to have an 107 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: effect that ha ha, you suck and are dumb does not. Yes, 108 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: I would agree that is unsurprising. Well, that's exactly what 109 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 1: we were talking about before that. It's this is not 110 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: just your average, you know, trash talk, which of course 111 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 1: is going to happen in gaming. It's happens in sports whatever. 112 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 1: That's different than sexual harassment, rape threats, that kind of thing, exactly. 113 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: And I enjoy a good trash talk session. I'm sure 114 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: you do, knowing you. I know that you do do, 115 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: but it has to be kind of like good and 116 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: good spirit um as competitive as I am. I like that, 117 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: but not Yeah, sexual asthma is completely different. And this 118 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: study was a study of two ninety three women playing 119 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: games in average of twenty two hours a week, so 120 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: not the most representative study, but I do think it's 121 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: worth mentioning, especially because there aren't that many studies on 122 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: this out there yet, and the paper didn't address this, 123 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: but several others have. Rumination is linked to negative outcomes, 124 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 1: including depressive symptoms, so this is it's not good. It's 125 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: not good. And what pisces me off the most about this, 126 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: and there's so much to be piste off about, is 127 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: I know so many people for whom video games is 128 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: their stress relief. It's their way to build community. If 129 00:06:58,040 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: they're living someplace so they don't know a lot of people, 130 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: it's a way to feel like they have, you know, 131 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: a social outlet. Imagine all the women who are kind 132 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: of pushed out of this space that could mean so 133 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: much for them socially, personally, and they're pushed out because 134 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: of jerks out there who are treating women like this 135 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: because they happen to be gamers. Yeah, it's really it's 136 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: not fair. No, no, it's not fair at all. I 137 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: did find one interesting account um that's speculated that maybe 138 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: because so many of us women are pretending to be 139 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: male or I have like a gender neutral avatar, that 140 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: perhaps there are a lot more women playing than we think. 141 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: And I there was one story that really caught my 142 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: eye and kind of tickled me where this one woman 143 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: described her experience of like dominating the team fortress to leaderboard, 144 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: and everyone just assumed she was male because she was good, 145 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: so it must be male, right when she finally revealed 146 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: she wasn't. Several other players were like, yeah, I'm not either. 147 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: Oh I love it. It's like they all take off 148 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: their math and it's like, oh, we're all women. What 149 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: this whole time? That's like something out of a Oh 150 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: my god, have you ever seen this is so dumb? 151 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: Have you ever seen The Little Rascals that the remake. 152 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: We're at the end, they're doing the big race and 153 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: it's and she takes off her helmet. It's it's Darla, 154 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: like you think it's a male driver because he's wearing 155 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: like a This is so stupid. But it's like that 156 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: scene where she pulls off her mask and it's a 157 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: girl the whole time. You're right rigid. It's just like 158 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: the Little Rascles. Most things in life can be related 159 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: back to The Little Rascals. Another note before we dive 160 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: in here, the un released a sixty page report called 161 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: cyber Violence against Women and Girls a Worldwide wake up Call, 162 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: but it contained several errors in poor citations and was 163 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: generally quite flawed, so hopefully they will readdress that. Come 164 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: back to that later. A lot of people we mentioned 165 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: they did call on to speak at the event. It 166 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: was the paper itself was kind of had a lot 167 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: of issues. Okay, so gaming is a big As someone 168 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: who doesn't do a lot of gaming myself, these numbers 169 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: I found were really kind of shocking to me. In 170 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: SI in the US, consumers spent thirty point four billion 171 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,199 Speaker 1: on video games. Globally, that number is an annual one 172 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: and one billion, and it's estimated at the growth rate 173 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: until will be around six percent. That means that forty 174 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: million people worldwide play video games. Yeah, and online games, 175 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: specifically online games. Yeah. And I would guess when you 176 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: think of a stereotypical gamer, I mean, what do you 177 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: think of bridget Definitely a dude, probably someone who sits 178 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: on the couch and you know, dudes it out with 179 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: its other dude friends. It's very masculine. You know that 180 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: the common narrative of a gamer doesn't look like you, 181 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: doesn't look like Emma, I'm sure. Yeah. And sixty of 182 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: the public, when asked, would say something similar. It's a dude, 183 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 1: probably a white dude, probably a younger white dude. But 184 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: statistics from the Pew Research Center found that about fifty 185 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: percent of both men and women's that gaming on a PC, 186 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: console or handheld device is a pastime they participate in. 187 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: Men are much likelier to claim the game or label though, 188 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: as compared to women to six per so. Something that 189 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: we were talking about off Mike that again kind of 190 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: made me scratch my head was when you look at 191 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: those numbers people who pushed back on this idea that 192 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: gaming is a pretty you know, it's split pretty evenly 193 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: between men and women. I was like, well, that surprises me. 194 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: And then you said, well, some people will push back 195 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: on that because they say a lot of women are 196 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: gaming on their cell phones and some folks out there 197 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: might say, oh, that means they're not real gamers. To me, 198 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: I thought, well, they're fake gamers or imagining. What does 199 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: that mean? And I had no idea that there was 200 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: this connotation that if you play games on your phone 201 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: you are a fake gamer and should not be included 202 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: in the quote gamer label. Yes, and I think the 203 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: more I kind of thought about this, it kind of 204 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: comes up a lot where men have like they do 205 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: the real thing and women do kind of like the 206 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: fake note. I was just thinking about this in terms 207 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: of politics and that studies show that women are a 208 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: lot more likely to get involved in politics running for 209 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: office because they want to make change, and they don't 210 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: care about the glitz, the glory, whatever, Whereas the research 211 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: shows that men are much more likely to do that 212 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 1: same kind of thing because they want the label of activists, 213 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: of politician. They want the thing, the like stamp on 214 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 1: their forehead that this person is making X y Z 215 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: kind of change, isn't aren't they great? Whereas the data 216 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: shows that women just want to do the thing, they 217 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 1: don't care about the label. And I'm sure there are 218 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: so many instances where if men do it, they are 219 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: assumed to be the representative thing, you know, whether it's gaming, 220 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: whether it's an activist, whether it's you know, well, we 221 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: talked about a little in our fan fiction episode with 222 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 1: writing science fiction. Yeah, that was the real thing exactly. 223 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: And Emily and I had an episode on journaling where 224 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: when women wrote journals, it was just assumed to be 225 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: these like little diaries, not important. Who can it's I'm 226 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: writing about their feelings and their crushes whatever. But when 227 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 1: men write, it's it's their papers and it goes in 228 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: a museum or something. But for women it's just start 229 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: a little you know, Yeah, we're not real writers. It's 230 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 1: just their little doodles. Yeah, the doodles. When it comes 231 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: to video games, there is like core gaming, which is 232 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: seen as like not phone playing games on your phone, 233 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: But most people do play games on their phone, like, 234 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: not just women, most people, because we have them all 235 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: the time. And if you're just like kind of waiting around, 236 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: might as well play a game. I did wanna mention 237 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: that female video game developer interviewed about this whole thing 238 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: said one of her coworkers assumed that only five percent 239 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: of women were core gamers and the rest are casual gamers. 240 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: So developers are making the games for men. The core 241 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:51,719 Speaker 1: gamers like with that in the back of their head 242 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: that women don't play video games, so I make I 243 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 1: make video games for them. That's so well to me 244 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: because what other industry is like that. If you're someone 245 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: who sees a movie in a movie theater once a 246 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: month and you're a casual movie you know, movie person, 247 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: that people don't neglect you as an audience. And just 248 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: it's interesting to me that they're thinking, like, oh, we 249 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: can only market games towards people who are very involved 250 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 1: in this. I mean, it's interesting because this is a 251 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,079 Speaker 1: whole other side conversation. But It's interesting to me that 252 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: the identity label that is wrapped up in the work gamer. 253 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 1: I think there are so many other things like pastimes 254 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: that people do not make it part of their core identity. 255 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: I think gaming lends itself to people taking it on 256 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: as a kind of label about who they are, their 257 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: identity in the way that other kinds of pastimes maybe 258 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: do not. Yes, I completely agree with you, and I 259 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:46,079 Speaker 1: do have an interesting quote about that later in the episode. 260 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 1: And to go back to what you were saying about 261 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,719 Speaker 1: like marketing. Marketing research has been pushing the video game 262 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 1: industry to change. It's been showing like you could be 263 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: making a lot more money. We found so many, so 264 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: many market reports that conclude did that if the video 265 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 1: game industry and markets behind it, if they did make 266 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: games for women, they could majorly increase profits. So well, 267 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: that's like our episode on action figures, where there's money 268 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: to be made. These people is holding onto these not true, 269 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: outdated ideas about who plays video games and gender. Is 270 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: holding onto those rigid gender attitudes more important than money. 271 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: It seems like it is that they could be making money. 272 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: Do they not like money? It was a deal? Yeah, 273 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: they're they're entrenched in their ways, and we're not going 274 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: to touch on this too much in this episode, but 275 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: and one of the classics that we're gonna be replaying 276 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: that Kristen Caroline did. They talk about how the industry 277 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: is like ten to twelve the designers making video games 278 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: are women. So if it's that small of a percentage, 279 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: I can see how that would kind of have ripple 280 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: effects into what games are made. And speaking of big business, 281 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: let's talk about the sports. E sports is like really 282 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: growing very quickly. Is organized and competitive play, usually of 283 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: an online game that has an aspect of performance that 284 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: might be rewarded. Competitive video gaming. Essentially, the sports have 285 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: really really taken off. They've doubled in size in the 286 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: past three years, especially in Asia, the US and Europe. 287 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: The NBA is getting involved in it and in the 288 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: next couple of years it's expected to be valued at 289 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: thirty five billion. From what little data we have on this, 290 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: about thirty percent to professional gamers are female and people 291 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: get paid for this. If that's not clear, like some 292 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: people millions. A report in the BBC looked into China's 293 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: female E sports team and found that compared to men 294 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: who can and have earned up to two million, you know, 295 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: pretty much celebrities. Women earn far, far less. In general, 296 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: big companies don't want to back female teams because they 297 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: think that the male teams people are more likely to 298 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: watch them. We hear that argument all the time. People 299 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: want to watch the male teams play, but not the 300 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: female teams. China has seventy million esport players and made 301 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: over half a billion dollars for the country in this 302 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: industry did, which is very impressive considering that from console 303 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: games were banned and labeled by the Chinese government as 304 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: digital heroine. Yeah. I think that for anyone listening was thinking, oh, 305 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: why are they talking about video games? It's just some 306 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: stupid pastime. This is a very real part of economies, 307 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: you know, it's not just people's lives. It seems like 308 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: a really big part of what can make a country 309 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: like China function is video games. So it's not just 310 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: some small thing. Yeah, no, not at all. What I 311 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: also found really interesting is ex professional gamer Lillian Chen, 312 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: also known as a milk Tea, wrote this viral blog 313 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: post about what it's like being a female gamer. So, 314 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: if you're curious, what is it like being a professional 315 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: female gamer? Who this is not just a pastime. This 316 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: is how you make your money. She played Super Smash Brothers. Yeah, 317 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: and so if you want to know what it's like, 318 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: it's actually fascinating. Yeah. And one of the reasons video 319 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,360 Speaker 1: games have for so long been masculalized does their late 320 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: back to our Action Figure episode um. In the nineteen eighties, 321 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: the video game industry in the US had like way 322 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: too many video and arcade games, and American video game 323 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: producers were on the verge of bankruptcy. So their solution 324 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: was to create more novel content that was reflective of 325 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,199 Speaker 1: the audience, which meant they needed to narrow down the 326 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 1: audience and also increase visibility to that audience. So they 327 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: decided to move video games into the toy department, and 328 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 1: since toy departments were gendered, they picked boy over a girl. 329 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: At the time, boys played more games than girls. Video 330 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: games were then made with boys in mind, and therefore 331 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: most of the playable characters were male, and therefore women 332 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: who might have been into video games were turned away 333 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: because they weren't made for them. And not only that, 334 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: female characters and video games were seen as totally optional, 335 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: and when they were included, they were probably a hindrance 336 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,719 Speaker 1: probably in an owing one our sex object, a prize 337 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: to be one all of the above, and if that's 338 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 1: what you're seeing as a female player, yeah, you're probably 339 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: gonna check out. Video games are one of the most 340 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: popular forms of entertainment for children too, so we're teaching 341 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 1: these messages at very young ages. And it might go 342 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: without saying, but women are more attracted to games with 343 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: female protagonists, which are not supplentiful. For every five male characters, 344 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: there is one female one and that number gets even 345 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: worse if you look at door or action characters, and 346 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: then over games with only one protagonist, that protagonist is male. 347 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: So this actually reminds me so much of my childhood 348 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: because when we were growing up, we were obsessed with 349 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 1: the Ninja Turtles and I always had to be April 350 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: a real meal because she was the girl. And the 351 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: mall Chesterfield Towns and Tremol in my town when I 352 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: was growing up used to have this big arcade and 353 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: the best game they had was that stand up Ninja 354 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: Turtles game that you know, where it was like four 355 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 1: players could play at one and you were all sort 356 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,479 Speaker 1: of standing in a semicircle and it would be like 357 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: my brother and my cousin's all playing, but since I 358 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: was the girl, there was no there was no kind 359 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: of role for me. If you know that game, in 360 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 1: the beginning, Splinter and April are kidnapped, and so that's 361 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: when that's why the turtles are fighting in the first place. 362 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 1: And so because in my sort of family, when we 363 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: would do Ninja Turtles games and playing Ninja Turtles in 364 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: the yard, which he did all the time I was April, 365 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 1: I had no role in that. In that game, you know, 366 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: there wasn't even a role for me. And I'll remember 367 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 1: this in the Mario franchise. You know how Super Mario 368 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: Brothers one you're saving Princess Peach, but then the Super 369 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: Mario Brothers too, is like really strange and all this 370 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: strange stuff has happening. It doesn't look anything like the 371 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: other Super Mario games. Not to trash my brother, but 372 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: when we were kids, we were playing in that game 373 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: for the first time, and in that game you can 374 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: actually play as Princess Peach. He was like, what is 375 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: Princess Peach doing in game play? Like she's supposed to 376 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: be being saved. And I'll never forget that I was 377 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: a kid, but I was like, why can't she play right? 378 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: I couldn't even be saved all the time. Maybe she 379 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: wants to play. Do you remember that game? It's a 380 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: very strange game that involves you floating on a cloud 381 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: and there's a scene where like a chicken eggs being 382 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: shot at. Now that it goes bowl, it's like a 383 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: very weird game. I feel like it's an acid trip. 384 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense in the franchise at all. But 385 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 1: you can play its Princess Peach, and that was very 386 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: important to me. Yeah. I had similar conversations with my brothers, 387 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: and yeah, not to trash talk them either, but they 388 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: were very It's funny because like, compared to the rest 389 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: of the population, I am like a gamer, but they 390 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: thought I was a fake gamer, so they would erase 391 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 1: my video games because you could only have three SAPs, right, 392 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: Remember how if you like unplugged it loves. My friend 393 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 1: of mine kept a plugged in small TV in his 394 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 1: room where it was like a sign that said do 395 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: not touch. Just trying to say the high score for 396 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: so long and I feel like, and this is going 397 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 1: to be buried with This was like ten years ago. 398 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: This was well into when you could have been playing 399 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: a console that allowed for turning off the system and 400 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: not not having not saving a game, so many of 401 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: us were traumatized by losing games. Yeah, tune into our 402 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: spinoff podcast, Annie and Bridget talk about their brothers. It 403 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: just just talking. Yeah, if you didn't get that idea 404 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: from the title, if we if we go look at 405 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: video game covers, male characters are four times is likely 406 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 1: to be featured on the front and um. First person shooters, 407 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: which I mentioned earlier, is a traditionally male dominated video 408 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: game genre, they have a much greater female playership. Studies 409 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: have shown if a female protagonist is involved, so games 410 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 1: where you can customize your character generally pretty popular. Cost 411 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: gen or divides too. It is worth noting that a 412 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: lot of people do like to play as the opposite sex. 413 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: It's not like if you see a male avatar, very 414 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 1: well could be well if you see a female avatar, 415 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 1: very well could be a man. But it's good to 416 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: have those options. I know that in general, I always 417 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: play as a woman if it's an option. Um, oh 418 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 1: you like this. Bridget In, the creative director of Ubisoft, 419 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: made headlines when he said Assassin's Creed didn't have a 420 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: playable female character because quote, it was really a lot 421 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 1: of extra production work, which led to the viral hashtag 422 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: women are too hard to animate. Oh my god, that's 423 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: that's all I'm started. It's hilarious. Yeah, I have. One 424 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: of my favorite video games, Fantasy seven, has this scene 425 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: that even as a kid, I was like, this is weird. 426 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: And one of the main characters she has really big boobs, 427 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: really big, and there's a cut scene where she gets 428 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 1: knocked over and just the like motion, I wish you 429 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: could see what and he's doing with her hands right now, 430 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: It's like, do her boots have a ripple of that 431 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: you're basically doing? It was? It was a site of 432 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,479 Speaker 1: a hold and it's stuck with me years later. So 433 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: you know, maybe maybe there are challenges animating boobs. Who knows, 434 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: I mean not if you live in the world old 435 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: ms are of how books? Yeah, are really you could 436 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: just kind of leave them alone. I don't know. They 437 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 1: really don't need to do anything special in the video game. 438 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: I don't think, no, unless you're using them to shoot 439 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: a gun or something. Sure, using them for gameplay, yeah, 440 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: I'm sure those games exist. And this is changing more 441 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: female and l g B t Q characters are becoming 442 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: more common in video games. In fact, Listener Rose which 443 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: was recently about this, sighting Horizon Zo, don Overwatch, Dragon 444 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: Age Inquisition and Ellie from the Last of As which 445 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: I mentioned at the top, and that gameplay just came 446 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: out recently for the second one. It looks amazing, so 447 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: some improvement, but we still have a long way to go, 448 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: and we're gonna get into that after a quick break 449 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: forward from our sponsor and we're back, Thank you sponsor. 450 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: We in When real life women started venturing into this 451 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: male world, a lot of intense gamer dudes were not happy. 452 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: They tried to keep women out with insults, harassment, and 453 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 1: even threats like gamer Gate. I'm sure we're all familiar 454 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: with gamer Gate. Anita Sarkesian was threatened with rape and 455 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: death to sent pictures of game characters raping her and 456 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: a game called beat Up. Anita Sarkesian was made um 457 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 1: because she kind of intruded in their world and started 458 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: talking about feminism and sexist trokes. Again. She likes video games. 459 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: You can critique things and still like them. She wasn't like, 460 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: I watched the videos and they're great, but yeah, she 461 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: was just like, hey, let's look at Sammy's for a minute. Yeah, 462 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 1: I once had a really scary and eye opening situation. 463 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: This was many, many years ago when I had first 464 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 1: got into into the mixed writing and blogging, and I 465 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: was doing a review of one of Sarkasian's pieces and 466 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 1: it was completely by the book. I certainly did not 467 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: editorialize it, because that was not my job. I was 468 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: just like, Oh, this is a piece that she has, 469 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 1: here's what she says, blah blah blah, very by the book. 470 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: Publish the amount of vitriolic hate that I personally got 471 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 1: just because she happened to tweet this piece out because 472 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 1: it was about her. I have never seen anything like it, 473 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 1: and I don't think I'll ever see anything like it again. 474 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: And bear in mind, in no way did she say 475 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: people who game are sexist and awful like, she didn't 476 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: think anything like that. It was just a pretty mild 477 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: breakdown of gaming. You know, the tropes in this game. 478 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: It was. In no way was it anything that anyone 479 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: she could upset about. It wasn't. It was basically a 480 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: movie review. If you wouldn't think that a movie review 481 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: would be something to lose your cool over. It certainly 482 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 1: wasn't anything different from that, and I just could not 483 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: I could not believe the shocking level of response that 484 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: she got. And then I got this from a mild 485 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: association with her work. I was like, what the hell 486 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: is going on? Yep, but well, angry gamers trying to 487 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 1: paint gamer gate as a response to like a lack 488 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: of journalistic integrity. It's about integrity and gaming. It's about 489 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 1: ethics and gaming journalism. And that's why I'm saying we 490 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 1: should rape this woman. I don't know, it's about ethics. Yeah, 491 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: I can't believe you missed that. So if we look 492 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 1: at that, there's the story of Zoe Quinn, who was 493 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: an indie gamer developer who had a positively reviewed game 494 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 1: called Depression Quest, and an ex lover of hers put 495 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,959 Speaker 1: transcripts of her life online. And here comes the gamer 496 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,959 Speaker 1: gators alleging that Quinn's relationship with the journalist was behind 497 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: her games good reviews, and that was all the excuse 498 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: angry dude gamers needed to ask her to the point 499 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: that she went into hiding and hiding. I just wanted 500 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: to point out that gamers didn't go after the journalist. 501 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: If you if you're wondering about that ethics and video 502 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 1: game journalism. Why do you what what could be the difference? 503 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know what a good view 504 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: it did find a really interesting article written by Devon 505 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: Ferarchi called why I Feel bad for and understand the 506 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: angry gamer Gators. I have a really long quote that 507 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: I probably shouldn't read the thing, but it was. It 508 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: was interesting to read. It kind of goes back to 509 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: what you were saying Bridget about how gamer is such 510 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: an identity for some people. I guess when you feel 511 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 1: like people are intruding into this thing that you've producted 512 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: and cultivated, when you are someone who is an outsider, 513 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: who is downtrodden, you will fight back. I guess we 514 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 1: could post it it is. It was really interesting to read, 515 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: especially because I know, I don't know if I know 516 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,959 Speaker 1: someone who is is like a gamer gater, but I 517 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 1: know guys that are very very protective of like they're 518 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: gaming worlds, so full disclosure, Like I casually sometimes play 519 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: video games, but I would never call myself a gamer, 520 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: but so so I'm a little out of the loop. Admittedly, 521 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: are gamers like a downtrodden group, Well not anymore. Well, 522 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. I will say we kind of touched 523 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 1: on this before, where like nerds haven't inherited the earth, right, 524 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: So I feel like in the eighties nerds certainly was 525 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: depicted as very down on in and being getting picked 526 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 1: on and bullied. I honestly can't speak to right now. 527 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: I will know, the most gamers I know that are 528 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: men are not perhaps they were nerdier. Yeah, I again, 529 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 1: and this is not this is Bridget's opinion, anecdotal. I've 530 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,199 Speaker 1: always pushed back against that idea that gamers on a 531 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,719 Speaker 1: whole are this marginalized group. As you pointed out at 532 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: the top of the show, a lot of people game, 533 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 1: and so it's the majority of people are playing video games. 534 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 1: They might not have this label of gamer, but it's 535 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 1: not a niche hobby. In fact, quite a mainstream hobby, 536 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: I would argue. And so I hear that people feel 537 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: that they have lived a life full of hardship because 538 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: they were nerdier, because they were skinnier, because they were 539 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: not popular or whatever. I understand that uns how I 540 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: felt growing up sometimes, But whether or not they are 541 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: actually like a marginalized group or who actually is downtrotch 542 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: I'm always sort of got to cole about that. Yeah maybe, yeah, yeah, no, totally. Um, 543 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: I don't know the word for it. Most most gamer 544 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:13,959 Speaker 1: geters are young. They're pretty young, so I don't know 545 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: the movie should post the article. It's interesting to read. 546 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: There's one. There's one bit I really liked where it 547 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: says these guys get told lies that I think are 548 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: really insidious, like it doesn't matter what's on your outside, 549 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: it matters what's on your inside, which leads to an 550 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: entire affinity of groups address and smell like and don't 551 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: take care of themselves. And this leads to a horrible 552 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: cycle where socially awkward weirdos who dressed like garbage get 553 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: rejected by attractive women, which causes socially awkward weirdos to 554 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: start blaming women in general for their problems and reinforce 555 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: their social awkwardness. They do it because they have been 556 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: raised in a world where women are not humans but prizes, 557 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: and so they can't see them as individuals. They can 558 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: understand that they are women out there who also are 559 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: socially awkward weirdos who might truly be into comic books, 560 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: video games, thunder and dragons. Yes, oh, my god, I 561 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: have a lot to say. This reminds me so much 562 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: of the episode that we did a while back Emily 563 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: and I on men going their own way, And if 564 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: you don't know what that is, basically, it's this attitude 565 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: that some men have today where they are basically retreating 566 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: from society. They don't want to have a romantic partner, 567 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: they don't want to be included in everyday society. The 568 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: reason why that topic was something that was on my 569 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: radar at all was this study that had come out 570 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: that had just come out then about young men and 571 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: video gaming and how the role it can function in 572 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: a young man's life in this day and age. And 573 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: it's a lot of what you talked about, where young 574 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: men especially have been sold this kind of lie. I 575 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: guess there's no other word for it, that they will 576 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: grow up, be successful, get a job, to find a wife, 577 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: blah blah blah, like do this sort of white picket 578 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: fence American dream thing. But look around you, that's no 579 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: longer happening. And you know, gone on the days when 580 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: just by virtue of being born white and male, you 581 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: can be promised things like a spouse, things like a job, success, 582 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: life and video games, it seems, are kind of functioning 583 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: as a a way to be like, Oh, the life 584 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: that I was sort of promised is not a reality 585 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: for me. I'll just retreat into video games and new society. 586 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: In that episode, we took a lot of heat for 587 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: almost humanizing young man who feel that way too much. 588 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: But I do think it's like an interesting position to 589 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: be in because from that experpt that you just read, 590 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: it just sounds like we are not setting these young 591 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: men up for successful, healthy lives, and that's what it 592 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: really comes down to. And so part of me does 593 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: feel sympathetic, not so sympathetic that they're out there standing 594 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: rape threats and like making zo Quinn's life horrible. But 595 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: part of me can understand if you grew up hearing 596 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: that it's what's inside that counts, and that just by 597 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: virtue of being born white and male, you will have X, 598 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: y Z good things, and then come to find out 599 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: that actually you do need to have a decent personality, 600 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: You actually do need to take care of yourself, You 601 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: actually do need to have basic hygiene and like a 602 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,719 Speaker 1: basic understanding of how to present in the world. If 603 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: you want to have good things in your life, you 604 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: actually do have to work for them. You know, it's 605 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: not gonna get hand to you. You don't. You don't 606 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: earn it is by virtual being you. It's not a 607 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: prize that you can just get by showing up. Because 608 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: we are filling these young men's heads with those lives, 609 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: and because video games function, a lot of them function 610 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: in a way where that's the case, you know, like 611 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: we'll post it in the show notes. This article talks 612 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: about how so many games the reward system rewards tasks 613 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 1: in such a way that it can almost mimic work. 614 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: And so if you are someone who is underemployed or unemployed, 615 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: gaming is designed to stimulate something in your brain that 616 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: maybe makes you feel like you are working when you're not, 617 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And so you're not gonna 618 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: feel like you need to go out and join society, 619 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: join the workforce to get those brain warm fuzzies if 620 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: gaming provides it in a kind of way. I know, 621 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: I sound like someone who I mean this. People who 622 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 1: are gaming are like get no, bridget. But when I 623 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: found this out, I thought, oh, of course. And the 624 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: reason why I found this out is because I had 625 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: someone in my life who was underemployed and was like, yeah, 626 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: video games are really getting me through. And at first 627 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: I thought, Jesus, that's at But then I when I 628 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: really unpacked it, I thought, oh my god, it makes sense, 629 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: and this is what's happening to a generation of young men, 630 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: and it explains so much about how young men see 631 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: themselves in the world. You know, if they're heterosexual, how 632 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: they're functioning with women, why they might want to check 633 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: out a society if they feel like they've been sold 634 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: a lie. Yeah. And I mean it's not just video 635 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: games either, those eighties movies. This has been the story 636 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: we've been telling for a long time that eventually it's 637 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: just gonna work out in the end and you're going 638 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: to get the girl. And I'm glad we're moving away 639 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: from that and telling different stories. So many women, so 640 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: many women have spoken up about harassment in gaming. There's 641 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: Jenny Honover. She runs Not in the Kitchen Anymore, a 642 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: website dedicated to her experience as a female gamer, particularly online. 643 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,479 Speaker 1: She records and transcribes audio files of her interactions and 644 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 1: post them and let me tell you, it gets really 645 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: grim best. I think she's stepped away from it so 646 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: it's more of an archive now, but if you're looking 647 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: for reasons to get angry, it's there. Julia Hardy, who 648 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 1: was a gaming journalist, has a similar website called Misogyny Monday, 649 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 1: where she posts abusive comments she's received and her pretty 650 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 1: hilarious comebacks. After someone tweeted it her to go back 651 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: to the kitchen and make me a sandwich, she responded with, 652 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: what is it that you most fear about? Women? Are keen? Agility? 653 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: Are the fact our periods attract bears? Well, anyone knows 654 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: that's true, now, I know that's just science. Another website 655 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: documenting abuse female gamers receive online is fat, Ugly or Slutty. 656 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: It hasn't been updated in a while, but this is 657 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: another good one if you want to be mad um. 658 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: I really like the categories on the side because it 659 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: kind of sorts the comments and the categories are like 660 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 1: sand which making one on one are crudely creative. I mean, 661 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: if you've got to put a silver lining on it, 662 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: it's pretty good. Yeah. Honestly, what this displays is that 663 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: a lot of these digs are just not very creative. Yeah. 664 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: I wonder if I still have any I should go 665 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: look a lot of them don't make much sense. Yeah, 666 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: so it's annoying to get abuse online. I try to 667 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: stay all social media in these days, but when I 668 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: do blog back in, I'm like, oh, yeah, this is 669 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: why I left. What I hate the most is when 670 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, that's not even a good joke. It's not 671 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: even a good comeback. If you're gonna insult somebody, that 672 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 1: doesn't even make sense. At least make it good. The 673 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: gender based insult that I would hear a lot of 674 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 1: is take your tampon out, And I was like, having 675 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: a tampon it doesn't have an effect on your mood, Like, 676 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: what are you trying to say? If you've got an 677 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: argument to make about me being on my period? Make 678 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 1: it succinctly. Just wearing a tampon does not have any 679 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: impact on how I'm behaving. That doesn't even make sense. 680 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 1: At least put some thought into it. It's just insulting 681 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 1: to both. It's insulting too. It should be insulting to 682 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 1: the person who is tweeting that you're better than that. 683 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: You're gonna insult somebody, put a little full thought into it. 684 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: That should be your response. Better than you're better than this, 685 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: You can do better. I used to collect my um 686 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: any kind of insults I received online, and I want 687 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: to make a modern art poster of them. But my 688 00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: favorite one I ever got was I know the produce, 689 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,320 Speaker 1: sure of this, and she's a slut because it's interesting 690 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: to call out the producer. The other one was her 691 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 1: mouth looks like it's made of crabs. What wasting? The 692 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:16,840 Speaker 1: venarial disease or the animal I don't know. I didn't 693 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 1: If you're going to insult somebody, those are important questions 694 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: to ask. Yes, the Tories and Culture editor at I 695 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 1: G and Entertainment a lot of tears. She has an 696 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,240 Speaker 1: interesting way of dealing with. Perhaps some of these insults. 697 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 1: Quote fairly randomly, I get sent rape threats. Someone sent 698 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: me a Facebook message saying they would rate me if 699 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: I ever saw me in person. I checked his Facebook 700 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: account and it was a young boy. So I managed 701 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: to find his mom incredibly easily, and she made him 702 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: hand write me a letter of apology. So I doubt 703 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,280 Speaker 1: he will ever do it again. Good on that mom. 704 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: I love that. I mean part of me wants to say, oh, 705 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 1: it shouldn't be up to this person's mom to to 706 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: do this. But if you're an adult, if you're young, 707 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: good on this mom for taking some initiative and saying no, 708 00:36:58,239 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 1: you're not going to treat somebody like that. You're gonna 709 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: write an apology letter. Also making someone right a handwritten 710 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: apology letter is is she's mom in real heartor she's 711 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 1: a mom in heart. Has a duma who has a 712 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,240 Speaker 1: pretty sizeable YouTube gaming channel advises blocking your muting root comments, 713 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: So that's one way. Yeah, Something that I have found 714 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: is that if you're on Twitter, especially mute over block 715 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: if you can, because blocking is can sometimes be like 716 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: a badge of honor. Honestly, we should do an episode 717 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: on how to deal with online harassment in general. But 718 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: I have found that if I block someone, someone else 719 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: will tell me, oh, they then tweeted a picture of 720 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,240 Speaker 1: the screen of you blocking them, and it sort of reverberates. 721 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 1: And so if you mute someone, they don't know that 722 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,359 Speaker 1: you muted, but you don't get a notification that they're 723 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: mentioning you, So it's just them farting in the wind. Basically, 724 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 1: they can keep on talking, you won't see it, and 725 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 1: they don't get that badge of honor that oh I 726 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: ruffled her feather. So much that she blocked me. Can 727 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: you believe this? You know? Um? So, just a little 728 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 1: tip that I've learned Bridget's words of wisdom. Brianna Wu, 729 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: a game developer, hired an employee to deal with the 730 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,959 Speaker 1: constant Internet trolling she gets. That's much she gives. After 731 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: we posted a meme about gamer gators on Twitter, they 732 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 1: went after her company's financial aspects, impersonated her on Twitter, 733 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: and launched a campaign to destroy her career by sending 734 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: emails to journalists from burner accounts. One of the scariest 735 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 1: messages she received was from someone claiming to know where 736 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: she and her husband lived, and the message described in 737 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: horrific graphic detail how he was going to kill them 738 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,479 Speaker 1: that night. Woo wrote in an article, They've taken down 739 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: women I care about, one by one. Now the vicious 740 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 1: mob of gamer Gate movement is coming after me. They 741 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:32,799 Speaker 1: threatened to rape me. They threatened to make me choke 742 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 1: to death on my husband's severed genitals. They've threatened to 743 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 1: murder any children I might have. In interview with NPR, 744 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: she said that as far as she can tell, the 745 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 1: video game industry has not had its me to moment, 746 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: and that it really needs to quote, look at the hiring, 747 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 1: look at the culture, look at who makes up the 748 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,360 Speaker 1: food chain, because we've really created a culture of silence 749 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 1: in my field. That is very similar to why Harvey 750 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: Weinstein was able to go for so long unchecked. I 751 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: can completely believe that is the case, and I think 752 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,279 Speaker 1: it probably is one of those things. I mean, it 753 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,719 Speaker 1: took so long for me too to trickle down to 754 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 1: industries like animation, and I think it's because they are 755 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 1: heavily male dominated, and because it's like a nerd culture 756 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,240 Speaker 1: kind of thing. It is seen as if you speak 757 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: up about abuse, about terrible treatment, about that kind of thing, 758 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 1: you're not a cool You're not a cool nerd anymore. 759 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: You know. We had this free wheel in thing if 760 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: anything goes and a lot of really toxic stuff confess 761 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: and cultures like that. Yeah. Absolutely. In Washington Post article, 762 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: we did give some specific recommendations targeting Gamergate mostly, but 763 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,880 Speaker 1: so major gaming institutions need to come out against Gamergate 764 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,440 Speaker 1: and harassment in general. Hiring in the industry needs to 765 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,760 Speaker 1: be looked at and examined at all levels, and game 766 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: journalism needs more women too. As I know, she's running 767 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,800 Speaker 1: for Congress in Boston are she was as of recording 768 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 1: this episode. Another woman who has spoken up about this 769 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: is Lena Van de Venter, who, along with Dan Golding, 770 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 1: co authored a book called Game Changers. From Minecraft to Misogyny, 771 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:06,800 Speaker 1: The Fight for the Future of Video Games. And here's 772 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,800 Speaker 1: just one of her encounters with sexual harassment and online gaming. 773 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,720 Speaker 1: I could hear him masturbating on the voice chat while playing. 774 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,600 Speaker 1: He would ask breathy, labored questions. Other teammates found it hilarious. 775 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:18,879 Speaker 1: I wish I could focus on my objective in the game, 776 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: but I knew I had to leave this server. My 777 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 1: mouse was hovering over the exit button when I heard 778 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: him climax moaning my user name into his microphone. Oh God, 779 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 1: I mean, who thinks you can play a game in 780 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,280 Speaker 1: those like conditions? But that's what you were saying before. 781 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,839 Speaker 1: It's what pisces me off about this. There's so much 782 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 1: wrong with it, but it's this idea that women who 783 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: game have this unfair extra burden, Like male gamers are 784 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: not dealing with someone moaning their their user name into 785 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 1: the god microphone that's are trying to play. And so 786 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,399 Speaker 1: as bad as that is, these male gamers still think 787 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,279 Speaker 1: that women somehow are not real gamers. Basically, it's like 788 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,319 Speaker 1: that old quote, you know, that Ginger Rogers quote that 789 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,600 Speaker 1: I do everything that Fred Astair does, I do it 790 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 1: backward at and heels. I guess what pisses me off 791 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: the most is that men then still say acts like 792 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 1: women aren't real gamers, aren't good enough, blah blah blah, 793 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 1: when in fact they are having to do the same 794 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,479 Speaker 1: challenges in these games that men are doing, but doing 795 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: it while somebody is breathing their god name into a 796 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,800 Speaker 1: microphone while they masturbate. Could they do that? No, they couldn't. 797 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,360 Speaker 1: That's distracting and awful. We shouldn't have to put up 798 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: with it, but we are. And I guess it pisses 799 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: me off that, despite the fact that women are gaming, 800 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: playing the same games as men and doing so with 801 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,400 Speaker 1: such an unfair burden, that they're still seeing as not 802 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,719 Speaker 1: real gamers when in fact they're putting up with more 803 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,880 Speaker 1: than the men are. Yeah, and just like I remember 804 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:43,920 Speaker 1: back when I still online games, and I would just 805 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 1: be filled with trepidation every time I ventured in. It 806 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:49,920 Speaker 1: was supposed to be a fun thing, but instead I 807 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,240 Speaker 1: had like this nervousness about doing it because you didn't 808 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 1: know who you're going to encounter in there, and that 809 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 1: really sucks. It shouldn't be that way. There is a 810 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,160 Speaker 1: whole movie about sexual harassment in gaming two called t 811 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,799 Speaker 1: f O, which creator Shannon's son Higginson, was inspired to 812 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,319 Speaker 1: make after she saw a Capcom sponsored game stream where 813 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:11,120 Speaker 1: the female gamer was harassed for thirteen minutes and she 814 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 1: did not return for the final round and the guy 815 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:16,800 Speaker 1: doing their harassing, and that video is quoted saying the 816 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 1: sexual harassment is part of the culture, and if you 817 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,799 Speaker 1: remove that from the fighting game community, it's not the 818 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 1: fighting game community. What the Oh it's awful. I watched 819 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 1: it and it's gross. It was weird and gross and 820 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: it just kept going on and on. And they were 821 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: on the same team too. But this is her teammate. 822 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 1: That that's absurd. Okay, So when people say, how dare 823 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,239 Speaker 1: you critique video games? I would posit that guys like 824 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,319 Speaker 1: this who say, oh, if you don't like this, and 825 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,240 Speaker 1: this is what the community is and a big hallmark 826 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 1: of the community, I would argue that that guy doesn't 827 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 1: like gaming is an a real gamer. I would argue 828 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 1: the people who are saying, hey, that's not Okay, don't 829 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 1: do this be better than this kind of sleazy poll 830 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 1: who does it to their own teammate. I would say 831 00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 1: that the people who are calling that out, they are 832 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,359 Speaker 1: the ones who are true gamers who actually care about 833 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 1: the industry. People who are saying this is just how 834 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,040 Speaker 1: it is. It's sleazy and it's bad, and that's how 835 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 1: it is, I would argue that that guy doesn't give 836 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: it that gaming It is not a real gamer. Yeah. 837 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 1: I mean, if you were in any other industry and 838 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 1: you tolerated and accepted that kind of bad behavior, you 839 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't be like, oh, that's a titan of the industry, 840 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 1: who really cares about the craft. If you were a 841 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,960 Speaker 1: surgeon and you just said, I smoke cigars while I 842 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 1: do surgery, that's just the way it is. If you 843 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: don't like it, yeah, if you don't like it, that 844 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,520 Speaker 1: means you don't you don't really love surgery. You would 845 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 1: say that guy doesn't care about surgery, didn't care about 846 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 1: the craft. How did we elevate the people who vocally 847 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:40,920 Speaker 1: don't give a about whether or not gaming is a 848 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:42,960 Speaker 1: good community. How did we elevate them to be the 849 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 1: spokespeople of the community that they're the real gamers. How 850 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,080 Speaker 1: did we allow that? That is a great question. I 851 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,480 Speaker 1: also wanted to mention he this guy, he pointed to 852 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,280 Speaker 1: his First Amendment rights when give me a brig of horse? 853 00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,840 Speaker 1: He did. Journalist Ali Fogg had this counter point, What 854 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:02,919 Speaker 1: you fail to understand is that the use of hate 855 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,400 Speaker 1: speech threats ambling to terrify and intimidate people into silence, 856 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,719 Speaker 1: are away from certain topics is a far bigger threat 857 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 1: to free speech than any lingal sanction. Imagine this is 858 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,560 Speaker 1: not the Internet but a public square. One woman stands 859 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,280 Speaker 1: on a soapbox and expresses an idea. She is instantly 860 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,000 Speaker 1: surrounded by an army of five thousand angry people yelling 861 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 1: the worst kind of abuse at her in the attempt 862 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,319 Speaker 1: to shut her up. Yes, there's a free speech issue here, 863 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,399 Speaker 1: but it's not the one you think. I love that. Yeah, 864 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: I also think that people misunderstand free speech. If there 865 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,239 Speaker 1: was one argument, I wish that people would be a 866 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:37,959 Speaker 1: bit more thoughtful about when they hurl. Yeah, it would 867 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,520 Speaker 1: be free speech. Yeah. A study reported on by Wire 868 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:46,320 Speaker 1: called Insights into Sexism Male Status and Performance moderates female directed, 869 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,160 Speaker 1: hostile and amicable behavior. That's quite a title. Found that 870 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:54,000 Speaker 1: harassment towards women from men goes up when men are losing. 871 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,680 Speaker 1: And I can addest to that. I'm sure I won 872 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 1: this tournament once and the experience was so terrible. I 873 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,839 Speaker 1: have not competed since I felt like I lost. Man, 874 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,400 Speaker 1: I felt like I have lost in so many ways. 875 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:11,120 Speaker 1: That's that's my point. I mean, this is this is 876 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 1: gonna sound dumb, but there's probably a woman out there, 877 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,320 Speaker 1: a woman or a girl out there who was gaming 878 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,040 Speaker 1: who had an experience like the one that you just 879 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,680 Speaker 1: described where it was so bad you thought never again. 880 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 1: That person could have been a professional gamer. You don't 881 00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,760 Speaker 1: know all of the think of all of the talent, 882 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,200 Speaker 1: the promising talent that we could be losing out on 883 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,480 Speaker 1: because we are allowing them to be bullied and harassed 884 00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,120 Speaker 1: out of gaming. Yeah. And I mean, even this, like 885 00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,080 Speaker 1: as dumb as it it was, there was prize money involved. 886 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,600 Speaker 1: There was like five prize, So we need a women 887 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,560 Speaker 1: should be able to get feed for that money too. 888 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 1: Oh man, here's another quote from this study. Female initiated 889 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 1: disruption of a male hierarchy in sights hustile behavior from 890 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,840 Speaker 1: poor performing males who stand to lose the most status 891 00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:58,520 Speaker 1: These results suggest that it is lower skilled, poor performing 892 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,840 Speaker 1: males that are significantly more hostile towards females, and higher 893 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,560 Speaker 1: skilled focal players are more supportive. So women threatened to 894 00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,759 Speaker 1: the hierarchy and dudes don't like it, And if they 895 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:11,680 Speaker 1: don't threaten it, then the men are like, okay, you're 896 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:15,200 Speaker 1: allowed to stay in here. Wow, I also love poor 897 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:22,719 Speaker 1: performing males just as it. Yeah. Um, The researchers did 898 00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,720 Speaker 1: not that this dynamic changes based on games, so again, please, 899 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,840 Speaker 1: we're painting with broad rushes, but there are differences. There're 900 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,960 Speaker 1: certainly pockets that are not like this, and a lot 901 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,360 Speaker 1: of accounts from female gamers lamented that as a woman 902 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:37,960 Speaker 1: you're expected to be twice as good and if you want. 903 00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:41,080 Speaker 1: It was seen as due to someone else's failure or success. 904 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,920 Speaker 1: But if you lost, that was because you're a silly 905 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,560 Speaker 1: woman and didn't know what you're doing. Of course you are. 906 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,279 Speaker 1: What other reason could it be? Yeah, when I won 907 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:53,360 Speaker 1: that tournament, it was definitely like, oh my controller, she cheated. 908 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,400 Speaker 1: She I don't know something's wrong here. This couldn't happen 909 00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:01,400 Speaker 1: and not be something have Yeah, like some wild explanation. 910 00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 1: It couldn't have be that you were better than them. 911 00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,120 Speaker 1: You were that good. It has to have been. Oh 912 00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:08,880 Speaker 1: my house got struck by lightning and the server blinked 913 00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,680 Speaker 1: and blah blah blah. You know. Yeah, Well this was 914 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:13,319 Speaker 1: an interesting case because we were all playing in the 915 00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,560 Speaker 1: same room, but somebody said he could hear a fire 916 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,239 Speaker 1: alarm and it was distracted to him, and I'm like, 917 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,839 Speaker 1: we're all here, with anyone else here, We're all here. 918 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,479 Speaker 1: It sounds like another piece of reasoning from a poor 919 00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:28,640 Speaker 1: performing mal bird. Pass burn wherever you are not listening 920 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:33,360 Speaker 1: to this. I hope he's listening. Oh God, maybe maybe 921 00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,200 Speaker 1: he's changed. He was kind of a decent fellow outside 922 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,440 Speaker 1: of that. So moderately performing mail, moderately performing mail, we 923 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,560 Speaker 1: can only hope vigin. So we have a little bit 924 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:44,520 Speaker 1: more to talk about. But we're going to pause for 925 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:56,960 Speaker 1: one more quick break for word from our sponsor, and 926 00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:01,440 Speaker 1: we're back, Thank you, sponsor. So life Wire has an 927 00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:06,520 Speaker 1: article called Xbox Live Survival Guide for Female Gamers, and 928 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,680 Speaker 1: it starts out with this tip. First off, guys, when 929 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:11,800 Speaker 1: there is a gal in the room, just leave her alone. 930 00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:13,640 Speaker 1: You don't need to her ask her and ask her 931 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:15,800 Speaker 1: what she looks like and to send her weird pictures 932 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:18,640 Speaker 1: you can, and we'll be banned from Xbox Live if 933 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,040 Speaker 1: you harass people too much, So just knock it off. 934 00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,359 Speaker 1: Just because you can hide behind the veil of anonymity 935 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:25,839 Speaker 1: doesn't mean you have the right to ruin the game 936 00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,439 Speaker 1: for other people. But then it continues. Since most guys 937 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,840 Speaker 1: probably won't bother you to pay attention to that paragraph, 938 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:33,840 Speaker 1: you ladies are going to have to take charge of 939 00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,520 Speaker 1: how you are treated online, and the article continues with 940 00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,120 Speaker 1: tips like play with friends, use the player review feature, 941 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,960 Speaker 1: and not calling attention to yourself things we shouldn't have 942 00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:45,799 Speaker 1: to do. This reminds me of the running thing again, like, yeah, 943 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:50,480 Speaker 1: it's just something. Ah, it's ridiculous that there's even a 944 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:54,760 Speaker 1: playbook for this, like how to play as a woman 945 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:56,960 Speaker 1: versus how to play as a man, but there is. 946 00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:01,360 Speaker 1: Xbox Lives actual code of Conduct does not mentioned sexism, 947 00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:05,560 Speaker 1: but players are told not to harass any players as 948 00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:09,400 Speaker 1: always more accurate gender portrayals, I eat not sex objects 949 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:11,920 Speaker 1: made for the male gaze, which it is totally cool 950 00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:13,279 Speaker 1: to have a sexy lady, but she needs to be 951 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,799 Speaker 1: a character and not an object. And more women in 952 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:18,440 Speaker 1: the industry is a good place to start if we 953 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:22,200 Speaker 1: want to change this culture, and I think we do. 954 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,799 Speaker 1: I think we do, think we do. Um Calling out 955 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,279 Speaker 1: harassers in the game and community, both by creators and 956 00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,360 Speaker 1: players is another step. So basically having a bit of 957 00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,160 Speaker 1: a me to effect in gaming. Yes, I have a 958 00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:37,480 Speaker 1: theory that there are certain industries that so far me 959 00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,480 Speaker 1: too has been slow or not happen, but once they do, 960 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:42,719 Speaker 1: it's going to be a domino where it turns out 961 00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:44,840 Speaker 1: it's just creeps and turtles the whole way down, Like 962 00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,960 Speaker 1: who knew. I feel like video games, once there's a 963 00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:52,200 Speaker 1: you know, a real high profile professional in the industry, 964 00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,319 Speaker 1: I think it's going to be a real yeah situation. 965 00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,160 Speaker 1: I do too. I do think the sex objects saying 966 00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:02,000 Speaker 1: sex objects do not warrant respect, and if this is 967 00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,960 Speaker 1: a media is shaping the perception of players is particularly 968 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:09,200 Speaker 1: young players, and all they see representations of women as 969 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:14,120 Speaker 1: sex objects. In their eyes, women don't deserve respects. Absolutely, 970 00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:17,160 Speaker 1: think about the messages that you're passing down a younger 971 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,080 Speaker 1: generation with when that's the case. Something I found real 972 00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,640 Speaker 1: interesting was this idea that you could propose a tech 973 00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:26,400 Speaker 1: solution to this issue, and that really revolves around creating 974 00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:29,560 Speaker 1: a social stigma in these games around harassment. So one 975 00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,240 Speaker 1: solution revolves auto muting. And so if someone is muted 976 00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:34,600 Speaker 1: ten percent more than average in a game, that person 977 00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:37,040 Speaker 1: is automatically muted, and so you wanted to you could 978 00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:39,759 Speaker 1: un mute them, but hopefully that would really drive home 979 00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,360 Speaker 1: the point that hey, nobody wants to hear your harassment, 980 00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,000 Speaker 1: nobody wants your sexism, and really sort of doing what 981 00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:49,000 Speaker 1: I think is the more kind of difficult, challenging cultural 982 00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:52,080 Speaker 1: work of creating an environment where there is stigma and 983 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:55,160 Speaker 1: shame attached to being a harasser. I think that steps 984 00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:58,360 Speaker 1: like those are difficult because it's difficult to shape culture. 985 00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:02,240 Speaker 1: It's difficult to shift culture. But I think that where 986 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:07,040 Speaker 1: we can normalize the attitude that this isn't cool and 987 00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:08,440 Speaker 1: that you're not going to be seen as this like 988 00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:10,919 Speaker 1: bad boy, edgy rebel, if you do this, you're gonna 989 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:12,400 Speaker 1: be seen as a loser and nobody's gonna want to 990 00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:14,120 Speaker 1: hang out with you on the game. I think that 991 00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:17,320 Speaker 1: that's really really important. Yeah, and I think a video 992 00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:21,280 Speaker 1: game researcher at University of Melbourne, Robbie Fordyce would agree 993 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,480 Speaker 1: with you. Is when he was talking about online harassment 994 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:26,840 Speaker 1: in an interview I was reading, he said that it 995 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,360 Speaker 1: is indicative of something much bigger. Quote in terms of 996 00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:32,719 Speaker 1: solving the problem, I don't know that games can do it. 997 00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,360 Speaker 1: I wish it was possible, But gaming is simply a 998 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,759 Speaker 1: hyper and intensified expression of a more general problem with 999 00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:42,880 Speaker 1: toxic masculinity. So it is a big culture shift in 1000 00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,440 Speaker 1: conversation that we're going to have to continue to have, 1001 00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:49,319 Speaker 1: and we're going to have to keep pushing for a better, 1002 00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:52,400 Speaker 1: better world in gaming, but in general as well, because 1003 00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:55,239 Speaker 1: it is sort of all tied together. And I wanted 1004 00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:59,160 Speaker 1: to leave on this uplifting call to action written over 1005 00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:03,000 Speaker 1: at Bustle by s Zan Salmon. Video games are for everyone, 1006 00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,320 Speaker 1: There for me, there for you, There for our little 1007 00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,120 Speaker 1: sisters and our daughters to create, to play, and to critique. 1008 00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:11,080 Speaker 1: We cannot allow cruel, statistic people to take our joy 1009 00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,080 Speaker 1: away from us. We need to stand up to game 1010 00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,480 Speaker 1: or gate and keeping ourselves. But it starts with you 1011 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,200 Speaker 1: and me. It starts with us refusing to shut up. 1012 00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:21,080 Speaker 1: There we go, and I want to end on an 1013 00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:24,880 Speaker 1: angry note, which is, hey, poor performing males, stop it 1014 00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,040 Speaker 1: just stop. Nobody wants to hear it. Nobody wants to 1015 00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:32,200 Speaker 1: see your dick. Stop it just stop. I love everyone, 1016 00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:35,600 Speaker 1: love everyone. I love that. I feel like we've given 1017 00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,799 Speaker 1: you a new phrase, the catchphrase. I'm already planning how 1018 00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:42,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to use poor performing males in my daily life. 1019 00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,880 Speaker 1: Like looks like another poor performing mail. Actually, that should 1020 00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,120 Speaker 1: be a thing for the show, like hashtag poor performing mail. 1021 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,200 Speaker 1: The author of the study is gonna think, what did 1022 00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:55,880 Speaker 1: I create with this? What if you see someone harassing 1023 00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,000 Speaker 1: someone on Twitter, you can just say it looks like 1024 00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:03,560 Speaker 1: another hashtag poor before mail. I really want to start this. Yeah, 1025 00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:05,279 Speaker 1: and I love it. It's so of course, it's like 1026 00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,320 Speaker 1: very on brand for us that it's inspired by a 1027 00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:14,560 Speaker 1: gut bacademic study perfect perfectly lines up with with everything 1028 00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:16,759 Speaker 1: we believe in over here. I'm going to try to 1029 00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:20,160 Speaker 1: find that guy O the poor performing mail. You should 1030 00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,719 Speaker 1: send him this episode. That'd be a good diss. Send 1031 00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,200 Speaker 1: him an email that just says I thought you'd like this, 1032 00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,840 Speaker 1: and then the link to the episode. But no other contacts. 1033 00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:33,719 Speaker 1: Oh man, that's good. That's a that's a nice like 1034 00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:37,879 Speaker 1: I am I hold grudges. That's a nice, like long come. 1035 00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:39,640 Speaker 1: It's like all you thought I forgot about this. Well 1036 00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:41,840 Speaker 1: I didn't. I did it, but I thought on national 1037 00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:45,839 Speaker 1: podcast mother not to self. Do not just purch it off. 1038 00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:51,440 Speaker 1: Stay on our good side everyone. You know you're not wrong. Okay. 1039 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:53,719 Speaker 1: So that brings us to the end of our our 1040 00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,240 Speaker 1: video game episode. Something tells me we will be returning 1041 00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,879 Speaker 1: to address other aspects of this because there's a lot 1042 00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:01,640 Speaker 1: to talk about. But in the meantime, we're gonna read 1043 00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:06,680 Speaker 1: some listener mail. Sarah wrote, I wanted to recommend some 1044 00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,319 Speaker 1: books that may or may not count as published fan pick. 1045 00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,440 Speaker 1: The first is The Bloody Chamber by Angela Carter. It 1046 00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,280 Speaker 1: is a feminist reimagining of classic fairy tales that brings 1047 00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,520 Speaker 1: the latent sexual and violent undertones out, but it never 1048 00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,600 Speaker 1: feels gratuitous. The other is my absolute favorite book, The 1049 00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,120 Speaker 1: Penelope ad by Margaret Atwood. This is centered around Penelope, 1050 00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:28,400 Speaker 1: Odysseus's wife from the Odyssey, and it's her side of 1051 00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:31,880 Speaker 1: the story. Another really great one is Grendel by John Gardner. 1052 00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:34,840 Speaker 1: And finally last one is Helen of Troy by Margaret George. 1053 00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:37,439 Speaker 1: This is the Trojan War from the point of view 1054 00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:40,759 Speaker 1: from the woman who quote started it, you know, because 1055 00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,240 Speaker 1: it had nothing to do with Agamemnon being an aggro 1056 00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:47,120 Speaker 1: asshole or the idea that Minnelis was entitled to hell 1057 00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:49,480 Speaker 1: and like, dude, I get it, your wife left you. 1058 00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:52,080 Speaker 1: That sucks. Get the hell over it anyway, apologize for 1059 00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,680 Speaker 1: their aunt. I have so many feelings about toxic masculinity 1060 00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:57,439 Speaker 1: and misogyny and greekness. I hope you'll check out these 1061 00:54:57,440 --> 00:54:59,399 Speaker 1: books and thinks so much for the great show. Well, 1062 00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:03,320 Speaker 1: thank you. I love book recommendations too, so very excited 1063 00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:07,880 Speaker 1: to check those out. Next letter, Sophia wrote, firstly, I 1064 00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:10,240 Speaker 1: want to say thank you for creating my favorite podcast, 1065 00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:12,120 Speaker 1: and I especially want to thank you for defining a 1066 00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:15,040 Speaker 1: concept that has really helped me see myself and other people. 1067 00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:17,680 Speaker 1: And I'm more forgiving light the problematic faive. I tend 1068 00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:19,879 Speaker 1: to hold myself in very high regard, and I let 1069 00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:23,160 Speaker 1: my insecurities project onto people being overly critical of them 1070 00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:25,279 Speaker 1: as a way to make me feel better about myself. 1071 00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,239 Speaker 1: That sounds very familiar to me, because I do the 1072 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,399 Speaker 1: same thing. The notion of a problematic faith has helped 1073 00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,080 Speaker 1: me realize that nobody's perfect, least of all myself. In 1074 00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,080 Speaker 1: a way on my own problematic faith I've caught myself 1075 00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:39,600 Speaker 1: saying incredibly classiest and ablest things with no malicious intent. 1076 00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:41,960 Speaker 1: But I'm glad to have exceptionally woke friends that have 1077 00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:44,040 Speaker 1: called me in on it, and I am constantly trying 1078 00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:46,120 Speaker 1: to be more aware. Thanks to the problematic faith, I 1079 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:48,920 Speaker 1: also see how the people around me are problematic and imperfect, 1080 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,359 Speaker 1: but knowing this is okay and that they are still 1081 00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:53,360 Speaker 1: a good person has been a great eye opener to 1082 00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:55,680 Speaker 1: a person like me who likes to see the world 1083 00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:58,239 Speaker 1: in black and white. Having a term for the problematic 1084 00:55:58,239 --> 00:55:59,920 Speaker 1: fave really hits the nail on the head and my 1085 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:02,040 Speaker 1: opinion and as a daily reminder of all of our 1086 00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:06,400 Speaker 1: imperfection and humanity. Sophia, I love this. I can completely 1087 00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:08,719 Speaker 1: relate to it. I have to say we did not 1088 00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:11,960 Speaker 1: coin the phrase problematic fave. I wish I did, but 1089 00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,799 Speaker 1: it's something that I really found eye opening, and so 1090 00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:16,840 Speaker 1: I'm glad that you found that eye opening as well. 1091 00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:19,560 Speaker 1: And I always say I'm my own problematic fave. I 1092 00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,120 Speaker 1: am your girl is problematic. You know, we all say 1093 00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:24,040 Speaker 1: things and do things that we wish we hadn't, and 1094 00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:27,520 Speaker 1: it's so much easier to look at the problematic behavior 1095 00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,920 Speaker 1: of others, and at least for myself, I find myself 1096 00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:33,440 Speaker 1: doing that as a way to not think about or 1097 00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:37,520 Speaker 1: deal with our parts, my own problematic and so it 1098 00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:39,680 Speaker 1: is a youthful concept. I'm glad that you found it 1099 00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:42,920 Speaker 1: useful as well. Yeah, I mean pretty much everything we 1100 00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:46,399 Speaker 1: talked about, like this episode video game, it was problematic, fave. 1101 00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:49,800 Speaker 1: You know, it's again you can still like something. You 1102 00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,120 Speaker 1: can still like something and try to work to improve it. 1103 00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:55,719 Speaker 1: I would say that means you'll like it even more so. 1104 00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:58,880 Speaker 1: Thanks to both of them for emailing us that you 1105 00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:02,880 Speaker 1: two can email us mom Stuff and how staffers dot com. 1106 00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:05,960 Speaker 1: Where else can they find us? On social media? They 1107 00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:07,880 Speaker 1: can find us on the social media. We are on 1108 00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,840 Speaker 1: Instagram at stuff I've Ever told You and on Twitter 1109 00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:14,000 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff Podcast. But if it's harassment to say it, 1110 00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:15,759 Speaker 1: because we're gonna mute you and you'll never even know, 1111 00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:18,600 Speaker 1: it'll be up fart into the wind. Yes and things. 1112 00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:22,720 Speaker 1: As always to our producer, to Kathleen Killian, we're waiting 1113 00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:23,919 Speaker 1: to her in the studio. Yeah,