Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
Speaker 1: and speaker.
Speaker 2: And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician,
Speaker 2: writer and course creator. We are two working parents who
Speaker 2: love our careers and our families.
Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
Speaker 1: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
Speaker 1: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.
Speaker 1: We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This
Speaker 1: episode is airing at the end of July of twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four. We're going to be discussing how to design
Speaker 1: your ideal work week. So lots of people have more
Speaker 1: flexibility these days in terms of when and how and
Speaker 1: where they work. So if you are in a position
Speaker 1: where you can choose these things, it might be worth
Speaker 1: spending a little bit of time thinking about it and
Speaker 1: considering different things that might matter to you and that
Speaker 1: might make your schedule feel more doable. This episode is
Speaker 1: about creating an ideal work week schedule if you are
Speaker 1: thinking of working part time, what those hours should be
Speaker 1: if you work full time, but can set your own
Speaker 1: hours what those might look like, or if you have
Speaker 1: a hybrid schedule where you're in the office some days
Speaker 1: and working from home some days, you might be wanting
Speaker 1: to figure out when it is best to work from
Speaker 1: home or work from work. And so we're going to
Speaker 1: give a couple ideas of things to think about, frameworks
Speaker 1: to consider, and all that. So Sarah, maybe you can
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about what your work life looks
Speaker 1: like right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also kind of what inspired this episode a
Speaker 2: little bit. I work part time. You guys know that,
Speaker 2: you listeners know. I have three patient days per week.
Speaker 2: Two of those are full days, like basically a full
Speaker 2: business day, and then one of them is kind of
Speaker 2: like two thirds full. As my colleagues get half day
Speaker 2: of an admin kind of time to call patients back
Speaker 2: per week, and mine is a little bit less in proportion
Speaker 2: to my kind of patient care role. And every year
Speaker 2: around July we have to figure out the schedule going
Speaker 2: forward basically until December of the next year.
Speaker 1: So, Sarah, July for the following year seems awfully early.
Speaker 1: What's going on with that?
Speaker 2: Well, the truth is that it's easier for to book
Speaker 2: an entire year at once because the clinic schedules all
Speaker 2: kind of are built around the call schedule, and the
Speaker 2: call schedule has to be equal and kind of waited
Speaker 2: with various people. Plus there's the fact that a lot
Speaker 2: of what we do is very kind of long term,
Speaker 2: Like we see a lot of patients every six months,
Speaker 2: for example, or some patients even a year later, and
Speaker 2: so it's best if they can book their next appointment
Speaker 2: while they're at the office. I know, I definitely prefer
Speaker 2: it when I'm getting anything done for my teeths, my hair,
Speaker 2: to be booking my next appointment right then and there.
Speaker 2: And in order to do that, you have to have schedules,
Speaker 2: which means you have to have call schedules, which means
Speaker 2: the doctors have to actually figure all this stuff out
Speaker 2: way in advance. And there is certainly the ability to
Speaker 2: swap like if I have an event into November of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five right now, I could certainly figure something out,
Speaker 2: but for the most part, we have to kind of
Speaker 2: I don't know, decide on vacation requests, kind of do
Speaker 2: all that stuff. And then one of the things that
Speaker 2: I had to do was that basically since some part time,
Speaker 2: I asked like, is there do I have flexibility? Like,
Speaker 2: do I have to stay Monday, Wednesday Friday? And I
Speaker 2: was told, no, actually you do. You like, we have
Speaker 2: like enough office space that you can tell me what
Speaker 2: three days you want to work and we will build
Speaker 2: that in for twenty twenty five. So I was like, Wow,
Speaker 2: that's really fun. I get a clean slate to design
Speaker 2: my work week for next year based on what I've
Speaker 2: learned doing this three d a week thing so far,
Speaker 2: which I've been doing since October of twenty twenty two.
Speaker 2: So I guess I have been Monday, Wednesday Friday for
Speaker 2: two years now and really really enjoying it. But there
Speaker 2: was some things that I did not love. So my
Speaker 2: laundry list of complaints. So I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1: Yes, no, well what I mean, because I feel like
Speaker 1: it's been good, but there were a couple of things
Speaker 1: that you thought maybe could be tweaked.
Speaker 2: Yes, And the reasons that I chose Monday, Wednesday Friday
Speaker 2: in the first place is that I was nervous about
Speaker 2: having any significant length of time go on between business days,
Speaker 2: if that makes sense. Like some people are like, why
Speaker 2: don't you do Wednesday, Thursday, Friday? And then you have
Speaker 2: like a built in five day weekend. But I don't
Speaker 2: want someone to get a result, a result to come
Speaker 2: back at six pm on Friday and then may not
Speaker 2: be able to like respond to that result until the
Speaker 2: next Wednesday. Like that's way too long. So I wanted
Speaker 2: to minimize that and that worked out okay. But the
Speaker 2: things that I didn't love were that Monday holidays are
Speaker 2: really really frequent, and a lot of times they would
Speaker 2: just eat up a vacation day because for us, I mean,
Speaker 2: this is getting into the weeds, but our vacations are
Speaker 2: like holidays are included in our pl days, which actually,
Speaker 2: in my mind makes it more fair in a way,
Speaker 2: because every day is kind of created equal and you
Speaker 2: can decide whether to take December twenty fifth off and
Speaker 2: it's Christmas or February fourth, and either way it counts
Speaker 2: the same. And so for me, that would just ate
Speaker 2: up a lot of Mondays. And the other thing is
Speaker 2: that there was no easy way for me to take
Speaker 2: any three day weekend without taking a paid leave day,
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, I did that to myself.
Speaker 2: But it would be nice to be able to either
Speaker 2: do Saturday, Sunday, Monday or Friday or Saturday Sunday without
Speaker 2: using up paid leave. In addition, the Monday after call
Speaker 2: is I talked about it in the last episode. It's
Speaker 2: like torture, Like I've worked a solid week and then
Speaker 2: I have to work a solid day, and I guess
Speaker 2: it's not torture. I could do it, but I would
Speaker 2: prefer not too if it's not necessary, And this would
Speaker 2: allow me to actually have a day off, not off,
Speaker 2: but like on my own as I finished call and
Speaker 2: then finally, Mondays are just a little bit hectic, and
Speaker 2: I definitely suffer from some degree of Sunday stress of
Speaker 2: feeling like I have all the ducks, have to have
Speaker 2: all the ducks in the row because the kids go
Speaker 2: to school, and kind of once I get to work,
Speaker 2: I'm just hitting the ground running. And I have a
Speaker 2: very constrained Monday morning schedule, and so I just thought
Speaker 2: it might be allow me to enjoy my weekend a
Speaker 2: little bit more if Monday was a bit more flexible.
Speaker 2: So for all those reasons, I went through a fairly
Speaker 2: detailed analysis of all the options. I listened to what
Speaker 2: people had to say. I've read a blog post about it,
Speaker 2: and I actually heard from several people who work part
Speaker 2: time including positions and the schedules that they liked, and
Speaker 2: ultimately I went with Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday, with Thursday
Speaker 2: being the shorter day. Oh, by the way, for some reason,
Speaker 2: I'm not supposed to take the shorter day on Friday,
Speaker 2: so that was not a choice. But Tuesday Thursday as
Speaker 2: a shorter day and then Friday as a full day,
Speaker 2: and then I think this is going to be a
Speaker 2: pretty good happy medium. The only thing I noticed already
Speaker 2: is that there were a few Thursday Friday things that
Speaker 2: like instantly appeared on the calendar as soon as I
Speaker 2: made this change, and I'm like, oh my god, well
Speaker 2: now I'm meeting up too days every time I do
Speaker 2: something like that. However, I do have a little bit
Speaker 2: of leeway to sometimes like work a Wednesday, and so
Speaker 2: I think I'll be able to put that to good
Speaker 2: use and make up for some of this. So I'm
Speaker 2: super excited and grateful that I had the opportunity to
Speaker 2: kind of design things, and I assume that in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty six, as long as office space is not an issue,
Speaker 2: I could redesign them.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Well, now it'll be interesting to see how
Speaker 1: it goes. I feel like there's gonna be pluses and
Speaker 1: minuses in any version of this, and there's some constraints
Speaker 1: either way, right Like if you didn't want to take
Speaker 1: that many work days business days off in a row,
Speaker 1: given the situation of needing to respond to people, then
Speaker 1: it meant some obvious suggestions of how you would do
Speaker 1: it wouldn't work. We also have to move around various
Speaker 1: things in terms of when we record, but there's nothing
Speaker 1: set with this, so we can do it whenever. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it'll be interesting to to see how it
Speaker 1: works out.
Speaker 2: Laura, do you think we will record on Mondays or Wednesdays?
Speaker 2: Because those are going to be our new options.
Speaker 1: I would say wednesdays, that would be my choice, agree,
Speaker 1: because I tend to like to do my writing for
Speaker 1: the week that has to get done on Monday. But
Speaker 1: I'm open to different ideas so we can figure it out.
Speaker 2: I think Wednesday will be excellent.
Speaker 1: Wednesday we'll be recording. All right, there we go, all right, Well,
Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick ad break and we'll
Speaker 1: be back talking more about ways you might think about
Speaker 1: going part time, working from home, designing your ideal work week,
Speaker 1: and so forth. Well, we are back talking how to
Speaker 1: design your ideal work week. We open with Sarah discussing
Speaker 1: why she is going to be trying a Tuesday, Thursday,
Speaker 1: Friday schedule for her clinical work next year, with her
Speaker 1: Monday and Wednesday work from home days and her own
Speaker 1: entrepreneurial stuff. If you are thinking of going part time,
Speaker 1: there's obviously various things to consider. I mean, one thing
Speaker 1: we always warn people have out here at best of
Speaker 1: both worlds is don't automatically assume that that's going to
Speaker 1: be the best of both worlds. We can. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: talked last week about my manifestos, but this is another one.
Speaker 1: In many jobs, there isn't a whole lot of accountability.
Speaker 1: So when Sarah is working clinically, she is seeing patients,
Speaker 1: there's not a whole lot of gray area about this,
Speaker 1: like she's in an office seeing patients or she is
Speaker 1: not doing that. So there's not like a patient randomly
Speaker 1: when she's not on call. There's not a patient showing
Speaker 1: up at her house at eight pm to be seen.
Speaker 1: Whereas if you are working part time in many sort
Speaker 1: of information related jobs, it is totally possible that something
Speaker 1: will come up at like five pm on your non
Speaker 1: work day and you are like, well, do I deal
Speaker 1: with it or do I not? So if there's no accountability.
Speaker 1: We often see women on part time schedules working more
Speaker 1: hours than women on full time schedules. It's just that
Speaker 1: it happens with different managers or in different settings, or
Speaker 1: how strict your boundaries are. When I've collected time logs,
Speaker 1: I've seen women on part time schedules working more hours
Speaker 1: than women on full time schedules in the same company,
Speaker 1: in the same company. So going part time definitely means
Speaker 1: you will be paid less. It doesn't always mean you
Speaker 1: will work less, so be very careful about what you
Speaker 1: are doing. Also, if you are going to go part time,
Speaker 1: be clear about what you are doing with the hours
Speaker 1: that you are not working. In Sarah's case, she is
Speaker 1: doing her podcasting, doing her course creation, working on her
Speaker 1: book proposal, those various things.
Speaker 2: Which I all if you are away, by the way,
Speaker 2: which you all enjoy fun. Because you're going to give
Speaker 2: another example, I would push back at like the financial
Speaker 2: piece being that important, but the fun piece is very important. Okay,
Speaker 2: give your example.
Speaker 1: Well, just you know, I've had people say I need
Speaker 1: to work part time because the laundry isn't getting done,
Speaker 1: And I think that those are separate problems, right, And
Speaker 1: somebody else could likely do the laundry for less than
Speaker 1: what many people are earning in a professional capacity. So
Speaker 1: make sure that if you are substituting lower paid labor
Speaker 1: for higher paid labor, you understand what you are doing.
Speaker 1: And maybe you want to make sure that if you
Speaker 1: are giving up like the opportunity cost of a high income,
Speaker 1: that you are doing something with the time that you
Speaker 1: truly value, yes, as opposed to just that like the
Speaker 1: house isn't getting clean, no one's cleaning the bathroom, so
Speaker 1: I need to work part time. It's like, okay, hire
Speaker 1: a cleaning service and keep working. I mean, maybe you
Speaker 1: want the time to hang out with your kids, you
Speaker 1: want the time to relax, you want to pursue a
Speaker 1: creative hobby, you want to start your own business as
Speaker 1: a different matter, but totally very careful with lower paid
Speaker 1: labor substitution.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think the key really does have to
Speaker 2: do with what you want to be doing. Yeah, which
Speaker 2: maybe somebody loves laundry that much, but yeah, not mean.
Speaker 1: But Sarah, so you did not want to do like
Speaker 1: five shorter days and then do you know, like so
Speaker 1: maybe you can talk a little bit about that consideration.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's different configurations you could choose should you
Speaker 2: decide to take the leap and go part time. I
Speaker 2: actually have a friend who works five shorter days. But
Speaker 2: I think for most people that is a very dangerous
Speaker 2: thing to do, because shorter days it's just going to
Speaker 2: be very hard to kind of leave your work with
Speaker 2: stuff hanging, and shorter days could become longer so so
Speaker 2: quickly and so so habitually that all of a sudden
Speaker 2: you are just working normal days. I will give my
Speaker 2: one example of my friend who was so valuable to
Speaker 2: the place where she's working that they essentially pay her
Speaker 2: full time and she's like, I'm only going to be
Speaker 2: there from this to this, and that works out very
Speaker 2: very well for her. But I think as a general rule,
Speaker 2: unless you're able to work out that kind of an arrangement,
Speaker 2: this can be dangerous. I will also say, like, you know,
Speaker 2: you could say, oh, I'm going to be there and
Speaker 2: then available for emergencies later, and that would maybe be
Speaker 2: okay if you know exactly how often the emergencies are
Speaker 2: or what they are, or maybe if there's some sort
Speaker 2: of contract arrangement where if there is said emergency. Every
Speaker 2: time there is one, you get paid time and a
Speaker 2: half or some financial incentive. But I don't know, seems
Speaker 2: very dangerous to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I understand why people do it, because
Speaker 1: they're like, well that I can be home in the
Speaker 1: afternoon for my kids. But you might be able to
Speaker 1: work out something where you can often be home in
Speaker 1: the afternoon for I mean school aged kids for instance,
Speaker 1: because you're working from home, right and you're there, but
Speaker 1: your eight year old, who can't be home alone, doesn't
Speaker 1: actually need you to be on them, And so you
Speaker 1: could work from eight to four full time, but you're
Speaker 1: just home working most days, and so you're there physically
Speaker 1: even though you're still doing work. I don't know, I
Speaker 1: think it's that would be a rough one to assume
Speaker 1: you should do. But if you are going to choose
Speaker 1: certain days to work, you know, it's popular to take
Speaker 1: Friday off, but that doesn't actually have to be the choice.
Speaker 1: And many people find that Fridays might be a sort
Speaker 1: of slower day in your workplace, so you might be
Speaker 1: able to get more sort of done without as many distractions,
Speaker 1: and so maybe that would be a good day to
Speaker 1: take as a work day. If you have a long
Speaker 1: commute or a very stressful job, maybe taking one of
Speaker 1: the days off in the middle of the week would
Speaker 1: be better because if you take Wednesday off, you only
Speaker 1: are working two days in a row. And so if
Speaker 1: it is a stressful job, or if it's a very
Speaker 1: long commute, then and you only have to do it
Speaker 1: twice before you get a day to not do it,
Speaker 1: and I think that can be mentally helpful.
Speaker 2: People also say that traffic is a little bit better
Speaker 2: on Fridays, So if you have to drive in a
Speaker 2: certain number of days, making one of them Friday could
Speaker 2: actually be of benefit. People also can be in like
Speaker 2: a better mood, so we'll talk about that when we
Speaker 2: go into our hybrid work section. But that might be
Speaker 2: a time that you might more want to kind of
Speaker 2: nurture relationships and hang out with others versus being home
Speaker 2: with your head down.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I would say another thing though, even if you
Speaker 1: have complete flexibility of choosing when you are working part time,
Speaker 1: I mean, this is something you know I've heard people do,
Speaker 1: like I'm going to work from five to nine every morning.
Speaker 1: I think you gotta be a little careful with this.
Speaker 1: There's still this mindset. I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: have that you shouldn't be doing work ever if your
Speaker 1: kids are awake and available, And so people are like
Speaker 1: trying to work part time by working from five to
Speaker 1: eight in the morning and then one to three during
Speaker 1: nap time. And I think that's a way to get
Speaker 1: yourself exhausted. And given that there is nothing wrong with childcare,
Speaker 1: it would be worth considering a different schedule. If you
Speaker 1: are trying to work part time, it's okay to have
Speaker 1: coverage for that. So hybrid though this has become more
Speaker 1: and more of a thing. I mean not so much
Speaker 1: in medicine, but certainly I mean with your friends. I
Speaker 1: mean you're seeing like the number of people who can
Speaker 1: work from home these days. It's just crazy.
Speaker 2: Yes, And it seems like a lot of jobs that
Speaker 2: went entirely remote now have some sort of fluctuating, sometimes
Speaker 2: nebulous in office requirement like once a week, twice a week.
Speaker 2: I actually some close friends of mine like all kind
Speaker 2: of struggle with this and then they never know like
Speaker 2: how often do they really have to go versus what
Speaker 2: the rules are? So I think it can be probably
Speaker 2: worth really intentionally thinking through when it makes sense to
Speaker 2: be in the office and when it makes sense to
Speaker 2: be home.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean a lot of companies have happened on
Speaker 1: this sort of like, I of will be three days
Speaker 1: in the office and two days at home. But then
Speaker 1: what if people travel for work, Like how does that count?
Speaker 1: Is that counting against the home days or the office days?
Speaker 1: I think most people would counted against the office days.
Speaker 1: But then you can't go on badge swipes or anything
Speaker 1: like that. I mean some companies have tried to do
Speaker 1: something ridiculous like you have to swipe one hundred and
Speaker 1: forty times a year, But then that's going to lead
Speaker 1: to people doing stuff like coming in for an hour
Speaker 1: swiping and going home and working at home for various reasons.
Speaker 1: I mean, they're probably still doing their jobs, it's just
Speaker 1: that their life works better, or maybe they can concentrate
Speaker 1: more in their home office versus some open cubicle plan.
Speaker 1: And given in a lot of offices you don't have
Speaker 1: to swipe on the way out, it's almost impossible to police,
Speaker 1: like how long the person is going to be there?
Speaker 1: And I mean, how would you even do it? Like, oh,
Speaker 1: they were they leaving for lunch or were they leaving
Speaker 1: to go home? I don't know. So I think it
Speaker 1: is better for organizations, if you are in a management capacity,
Speaker 1: to be very clear on what people's jobs require, like
Speaker 1: what are their objectives that they need to meet in
Speaker 1: any given week, for instance. If you can do that,
Speaker 1: try to figure out how do I know that this
Speaker 1: person is doing a good job? And if these things happen,
Speaker 1: then we know they are doing a good job. And
Speaker 1: if they happen, then we don't need to be quite
Speaker 1: so worried about where the work is happening. That said,
Speaker 1: if you do have a hybrid office and you are
Speaker 1: working for one of these places, it's probably worth coming
Speaker 1: in from time to time. I mean, I know Sarah
Speaker 1: and I have found that when we are in person together,
Speaker 1: we have an easier time brainstorming, We have an easier
Speaker 1: time sort of planning things that involve a lot of
Speaker 1: back and forth. I mean, there are things that are
Speaker 1: best done in person.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean I think I'm a fairly fairly extreme
Speaker 2: outlier with this. Even with clinical work, I have some
Speaker 2: colleagues who are like, oh, I'll do telehealth here and there,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, nope, nope, nope, want to go to
Speaker 2: the office away from my house. Away from my kids
Speaker 2: and talk to people in person as much as possible.
Speaker 2: So there are things that are just more conducive to
Speaker 2: face and face. I guess the problem is some people
Speaker 2: who have this kind of voluntary hybrid arrangement. Unfortunately the
Speaker 2: meetings aren't really like in person or they involve multiple
Speaker 2: people who are out in California, so they're actually commuting
Speaker 2: to an office so that they can then zoom with
Speaker 2: people at like other remote offices, and like that's hard.
Speaker 2: I hope that if anybody in the manager capacity or
Speaker 2: has any power to change that is listening to, like, really,
Speaker 2: if you're going to require people to come in to
Speaker 2: make sure there's some in person natural components of their
Speaker 2: day and that there are like meetings that involve contact
Speaker 2: with others in that same building.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so some places are starting to do certain things
Speaker 1: like a Wednesday catered lunch, right, that is understood that
Speaker 1: this if you are working from home a lot, this
Speaker 1: would be a good time to come in because all
Speaker 1: the company higher ups will be there, so if you
Speaker 1: want to talk with them, if you have things you
Speaker 1: want to even just get FaceTime, that would be a
Speaker 1: really good time to come in because you will see everybody,
Speaker 1: and even just sort of consciously when you're planning your week,
Speaker 1: thinking of those in office days as your social days,
Speaker 1: and that the days that you're working from home are
Speaker 1: more about putting your head down getting through those individual deliverables.
Speaker 1: If you're going to be in the office, like make
Speaker 1: sure you have some like in person meeting, some lunch
Speaker 1: plans with a colleague, some coffee plans with a colleague,
Speaker 1: or you're going out to happy hour with your team
Speaker 1: afterwards or something too, you know, or going to an
Speaker 1: in office learning event. Something to make it worthwhile mentally,
Speaker 1: make it worth your commute, Yes, exactly, make their commute worthwhile.
Speaker 1: So if you are doing the three to two, would
Speaker 1: you do Monday Friday? I mean, that's a lot of
Speaker 1: places are doing that, but would you? I mean, you
Speaker 1: didn't choose that for your part time schedule, So maybe
Speaker 1: you can talk about that.
Speaker 2: You're saying, if I had to do two days in
Speaker 2: office and three days.
Speaker 1: Well, you are doing three days in an office, and
Speaker 1: so thinking about from the commute perspective, I.
Speaker 2: Mean you yeah, I mean maybe I would do it.
Speaker 2: I would depend on what's happening in the office. If
Speaker 2: there was like an all hands meeting. I would try
Speaker 2: to I would work around that. I find one of
Speaker 2: the other reasons that I chose Friday as a clinical
Speaker 2: day because I could have even though I can't have
Speaker 2: the short day Friday, I could have just said, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm just a Monday, Wednesday, Thursday. But I was worried
Speaker 2: about my own ability to be productive on a Friday
Speaker 2: at the end of a hard week. I think I'd
Speaker 2: have more desire to just put my feet up and
Speaker 2: not get a lot done. So to some extent, I
Speaker 2: sort of based it on my I feel like I'll
Speaker 2: be more productive because I know I'll be staying patient,
Speaker 2: like I'll be forced. You don't really have a choice
Speaker 2: when you go in for a clinical day, like you're working.
Speaker 2: So I felt like this would serve would actually help
Speaker 2: me from a productivity standpoint. So I don't know, maybe
Speaker 2: I would do it the same.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll take a quick ad break and we'll talk
Speaker 1: a little bit more about the Friday question. Well, we
Speaker 1: are back talking how to design a hybrid schedule. We've
Speaker 1: been talking about how to design a part time schedule.
Speaker 1: So I mean I think that there would be something
Speaker 1: we say for coming into the office on Friday gain,
Speaker 1: we talked about the traffic being lower, people might be
Speaker 1: in a more social, festive mood, like if you know,
Speaker 1: you'd just be taking an so backing up. Like before COVID,
Speaker 1: it was often this thing like you could maybe work
Speaker 1: from home on Fridays, like that was the ultimate perk
Speaker 1: if you had been in a company five years and
Speaker 1: you had high ratings, like you could negotiate to work
Speaker 1: from home on Fridays, and like everyone sort of understood
Speaker 1: that it was it meant you weren't really working, right,
Speaker 1: Like that's the idea, is that people assume working from
Speaker 1: home that you weren't working, and so Friday is the
Speaker 1: low opportunity cost day. That was the day they were
Speaker 1: willing to give up. So I think some of that
Speaker 1: mindset is still there that people are like, well, we'll
Speaker 1: have to have people in the office Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,
Speaker 1: because people are just taking long weekends. But if you
Speaker 1: actually view working from home about as productivity based, which
Speaker 1: I do, then it doesn't actually make sense to take
Speaker 1: Monday or Friday as your work from home days. With Tuesday, Wednesday,
Speaker 1: Thursday in the office, I think it makes a lot
Speaker 1: more sense to do something different I mean, certainly, maybe
Speaker 1: it's that Monday, you come into the office and set
Speaker 1: your goals with your team for the week, and then
Speaker 1: people can go execute on them on Tuesday and Wednesday,
Speaker 1: and then you're back in the office as a team
Speaker 1: on Thursday and Friday, and Thursday is when you're push push,
Speaker 1: pushing through to get to all your deliverables, and then
Speaker 1: Friday is more celebratory and social. I mean, I can
Speaker 1: see that as making total sense as a rhythm where
Speaker 1: you're still getting the work done and you're not writing
Speaker 1: these days off as like oh, when people are working
Speaker 1: from home, they're not working. It's just that it makes
Speaker 1: sense for the rhythm of the work itself.
Speaker 2: Agree And I mean, there is just leting to be
Speaker 2: said about Friday putting everybody in a more talkative and
Speaker 2: happy mood. That's why we do our little office lunches
Speaker 2: on Friday. Actually, our division meetings tend to be Friday.
Speaker 2: Like Friday is kind of when you like, I don't know,
Speaker 2: want to hang out with each other and maybe just
Speaker 2: wrap things up. There is a natural something there. I
Speaker 2: think that if I had a company and I was
Speaker 2: running it, I would encourage people to come in specifically
Speaker 2: on Friday, maybe only for yeah, and I.
Speaker 1: Know there is a tendency for people to try to
Speaker 1: leave as soon as possible on Friday, and so people
Speaker 1: are always worried about, like, well, if we do this
Speaker 1: celebratory Friday lunch, people are just going to walk out afterwards,
Speaker 1: which may be the case. You can sort of work
Speaker 1: with that by having lunch start at like the last
Speaker 1: possible work lunch time at like one thirty, so you know,
Speaker 1: kind of in that celebratory lunch from one thirty to
Speaker 1: three or so, and then people are leaving around three,
Speaker 1: which is you know, close to the end of the
Speaker 1: day anyway, So that might be something to think about.
Speaker 1: Or maybe it's that you have some sort of reception
Speaker 1: at three o'clock, and you know, maybe there's complic things
Speaker 1: with having alcohol involved in work and all that, but
Speaker 1: you could do it some other sort of celebratory way
Speaker 1: that you're clearly breaking for the week at like three
Speaker 1: o'clock or something, and people would probably stick around to that.
Speaker 1: Having something at like five point thirty on Friday is
Speaker 1: just ridiculous, Like, you know, people want to go home,
Speaker 1: But I think you can manipulate that a little bit
Speaker 1: to push it another hour to forward when people are
Speaker 1: having that kind of end of the week celebration.
Speaker 2: I don't think we're going to have any Madman style
Speaker 2: drink krk coming around my office.
Speaker 1: On the drink Kirk. Yes, I'm not sure. At a hospital,
Speaker 1: that's a great idea.
Speaker 2: No, I'm definitely not not advised, not advised at all.
Speaker 1: But days that we work for ourselves, which for me
Speaker 1: is every day, but Sarah for two days a week.
Speaker 1: I mean, have you gotten to sort of a rhythm
Speaker 1: of if you think about designing those? I mean, do
Speaker 1: you mostly work nine to five, Sarah? Or do what
Speaker 1: do you view as your work hours on your work
Speaker 1: from home for yourself days?
Speaker 2: Oh, that's a good question. I feel like I usually
Speaker 2: work from kid drop off to around five most of
Speaker 2: the time. Sometimes I have to finish earlier, but then
Speaker 2: other times I can like sit in gymnastics and like
Speaker 2: finish stuff on the later side. So I feel like
Speaker 2: on average it's like that. And it took me a
Speaker 2: while to like decide to come up with certain rhythms,
Speaker 2: but I definitely feel like I have where Tuesday is
Speaker 2: like almost always recording day. It helps that, like my
Speaker 2: best laid plans. Episodes are due by Tuesday, so I'm
Speaker 2: almost always recording one, and then Laura and I often
Speaker 2: do Tuesday as well. Thursday tend to be more like
Speaker 2: my own like creative work in the morning, working on
Speaker 2: course stuff or writing, and then often at noon I
Speaker 2: have some kind of like presentation, and then afternoons I
Speaker 2: just know, I'm like it's like more cleanup and less creation. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: so it does mean I'm fairly limited, and then I
Speaker 2: tend to sometimes do it. I hate working at night,
Speaker 2: like I do not do it. My brain is done.
Speaker 2: But I feel like I've been like throwing in a
Speaker 2: couple Saturday a little bit more frequently, just because it's
Speaker 2: like kids are occupied and it's fun work anyway, and
Speaker 2: it's like limited. So I think that's how I sometimes
Speaker 2: make up for the fact that like maybe by Thursday
Speaker 2: afternoon not all that productive. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So for me, I tend to do my basic
Speaker 1: weekly content creation on Mondays. I'm trying to get through
Speaker 1: all my I have this new newsletter called vander Hacks
Speaker 1: over at Substack. I try to mostly have those written,
Speaker 1: and mostly have my before breakfast podcast scripts written on
Speaker 1: Mondays and whatever else is kind of like urgently needing
Speaker 1: to get done during the week. Sometimes there are a
Speaker 1: few small things, or I do a blog post Tuesday,
Speaker 1: often recording if we're doing something, or if I'm doing
Speaker 1: podcast notes for this but starting to do other things
Speaker 1: in the afternoon. You know, I'll often set interviews for
Speaker 1: longer term projects in the afternoon on Tuesday. Wednesday morning
Speaker 1: is often a good before breakfast recording time. I try
Speaker 1: to get through at pretty quickly, like do the whole
Speaker 1: weeks in thirty to forty minutes max if I can,
Speaker 1: and then use the rest of that day for longer
Speaker 1: term projects. Same on Thursday, and then Friday is kind
Speaker 1: of a mop up day whatever I didn't get to
Speaker 1: or things on my punch list. I make a list
Speaker 1: of kind of small tasks that I don't want to
Speaker 1: interrupt to the rest of my life. But I can
Speaker 1: try to get done on Fridays. But I don't know,
Speaker 1: I'm probably not quite as good about this as I
Speaker 1: should be. I sort of often like to do what
Speaker 1: I feel like doing. I've been getting better about making
Speaker 1: a full on to do list for the next day
Speaker 1: the day before, and there's been different parts in my
Speaker 1: life where I've done that more readily. I don't know,
Speaker 1: for whatever reason I haven't been. I'm getting back to
Speaker 1: it because it allows me to feel a little bit
Speaker 1: more like I'm on top of things, and then I
Speaker 1: do have space for thinking up future stuff and working
Speaker 1: on my book project and all that without worrying that
Speaker 1: I'm forgetting something.
Speaker 2: That makes sense. Yeah, I feel like when I get
Speaker 2: into an unstructured day, I've already usually assigned myself a
Speaker 2: few things that are kind of due, and then I
Speaker 2: think about my rhythms for filling in the rest of it, like, Okay,
Speaker 2: this is a writing morning, or this is a podcasting day,
Speaker 2: et cetera. Cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I do generally try to work it's
Speaker 1: eight thirty to sometime in the late afternoon. I like
Speaker 1: it when I can stretch it a little longer, like
Speaker 1: I've been trying to sort of say hello to the
Speaker 1: kids when they get home from camp or school and
Speaker 1: then get back in for another hour hour and a half.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I will drive a kid to an activity so
Speaker 1: I can sit there and work there. I find that
Speaker 1: I can get a lot written during sitting at the
Speaker 1: sidelines of gymnastics or somewhere else like that, So stretching
Speaker 1: it a little bit further into the evening as I
Speaker 1: can makes sense.
Speaker 2: Well, I will say there are some jobs where you're like, Okay,
Speaker 2: that's great, you have days that's real cute. But I'm
Speaker 2: an er doctor and so this is like totally not
Speaker 2: applicable to me, or some other job where most days
Speaker 2: are going to feel kind of like the same, or
Speaker 2: you know, maybe you're I don't know, I don't know
Speaker 2: other careers like that, but you get what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: I will say that sometimes you could still kind of
Speaker 2: do a light version of this, where you make little
Speaker 2: shifts in your day to maybe make days stand out
Speaker 2: in different ways. So, for example, mentoring Mondays, you could
Speaker 2: be like, Monday is the day I see if there's
Speaker 2: any students around or someone below me, and just make
Speaker 2: sure they're getting what they need, et cetera. You could
Speaker 2: do like in the medical world, we have to do
Speaker 2: cme in the law world at cle and you know,
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. So maybe Wednesdays you're like, Okay,
Speaker 2: if I have a pocket of free time, that's when
Speaker 2: I tackle these annoying modules that I have to do.
Speaker 2: And then as we talked about Friday can often be
Speaker 2: kind of a social day. So even if this episode
Speaker 2: did not apply to you, because your job is in
Speaker 2: general not flexible at all and maybe not remote, there
Speaker 2: might be ways that you can kind of build a
Speaker 2: little bit of rhythm to your week.
Speaker 1: Even so, and you've done the exercise of designing your
Speaker 1: ideal week, like actually sitting down with some sort of
Speaker 1: calendar or spreadsheet or whatever and making like, this is
Speaker 1: what I want my week to look like, and it
Speaker 1: can be very useful. It is super useful. So it's funny.
Speaker 2: I think I was like, where did I get this from?
Speaker 2: Because I think you mentioned something similar to this in
Speaker 2: one hundred and sixty eight hours perhaps, But the actual
Speaker 2: physical template that I use was kind of came from
Speaker 2: the Full Focus Planner, which is the Michael Hyatt's company,
Speaker 2: and every single quarterly planner had a spread where from
Speaker 2: like six am to ten pm or whatever the hours
Speaker 2: he chose, you were basically supposed to fill out like
Speaker 2: what would I want my ideal week to look like?
Speaker 2: So you can see if all these things you want
Speaker 2: to do are actually realistic to put on the calendar,
Speaker 2: because truthfully, if they don't fit on the calendar, they
Speaker 2: are also not going to fit in your life, so
Speaker 2: super valuable. And I was like, well, do you really
Speaker 2: need this in every single planner? This is a quarterly planner,
Speaker 2: And it turns out it was like, yes, I do,
Speaker 2: I actually do, because there are just things that change
Speaker 2: and make life's time constraints very very different. We are
Speaker 2: in summer right now. Summer is completely different. I have
Speaker 2: so much more time right now than I know I'm
Speaker 2: going to have in just a couple of months, and
Speaker 2: so thinking through how I want to use that ideally
Speaker 2: is really really valuable. And my head is already spinning
Speaker 2: thinking about what my ideal week will need to look
Speaker 2: like come fall, because I have just already found out
Speaker 2: that we basically have things until almost nine o'clock every
Speaker 2: single weeknight next year, so certain things are going to
Speaker 2: have to change. I personally really like to do it
Speaker 2: in a vertical layout where you have the days of
Speaker 2: the week on top and then kind of the hours
Speaker 2: going down from the top to the bottom. Kind of
Speaker 2: looks like if you're a planner nerd like a hopuni
Speaker 2: chee cousin the weekly pages or a hemlock an oak.
Speaker 2: But obviously you could also create your own with this
Speaker 2: configuration with a blank sheet of paper. It also kind
Speaker 2: of looks like a Google calendar, so you could do
Speaker 2: this digitally and actually create I have seen others create
Speaker 2: an ideal week the it's digital that they can then
Speaker 2: kind of superimpose on top of their real life and
Speaker 2: see how close it's actually coming, which is kind of fun.
Speaker 2: So whatever you do, it's just you fill it out.
Speaker 2: This is where my workout goes, this is when I'm
Speaker 2: going to clean up from dinner, this is where my
Speaker 2: work hours are. This is my sleep, and you see
Speaker 2: does everything actually fit? And I really believe that doing
Speaker 2: this every single season is very helpful and has has
Speaker 2: helped me figure out what I need to say no
Speaker 2: to and has also helped me realize when I have
Speaker 2: a little bit more open time to do more.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think this can help you sort of
Speaker 1: think creatively. I mean, we mentioned briefly the idea of
Speaker 1: like if you can set your hours more like you
Speaker 1: work in someplace that's more flexible, like what you might
Speaker 1: decide to do. And so if you're generally aiming for
Speaker 1: forty hours a week, you might decide to do two
Speaker 1: longer days for instance, that you might decide, well, it's
Speaker 1: worth it to me to work till seven or eight
Speaker 1: o'clock on these two days, and then I'm going to
Speaker 1: purposefully work shorter on other days for whatever reason that is.
Speaker 1: And you know, you have a company culture that will
Speaker 1: respect that or whatever it is. But or if you
Speaker 1: work for yourself, I mean, maybe that's what you could
Speaker 1: decide that you know, there are some things that it
Speaker 1: helps me to be able to do in the evenings,
Speaker 1: or I like to get to the flow of things,
Speaker 1: and so I'm going to purposely choose these two long
Speaker 1: days and then I'm gonna take shorter days and I'm
Speaker 1: gonna feel totally fine about it on these days. But
Speaker 1: when you see the whole week, you can do that
Speaker 1: in a way that it's harder to when you're just
Speaker 1: kind of focused on individual days. You're like, oh, gosh,
Speaker 1: I'm working so late. This is maybe not what I
Speaker 1: should be doing. It's like, well, but if there's a
Speaker 1: reason for it, because you are fitting forty hours in
Speaker 1: the week in this way, then it helps to be
Speaker 1: able to see that.
Speaker 2: I will get back to everyone when I figure out
Speaker 2: how I'm going to work out, get enough sleep and
Speaker 2: deal with my kids. Activities until nine pm. But that
Speaker 2: is going to be a fun puzzle to have to
Speaker 2: try to.
Speaker 1: Take some of the nights off, right, Like, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think that some nights you will not be responsible
Speaker 1: for any activities and then you can do some stuff.
Speaker 1: Then I guess, let's hope. Yeah, that sounds good. Well,
Speaker 1: So pivoting to our q es for the week. Sarah,
Speaker 1: this one more or less the person rights should I
Speaker 1: buy a beach house? And the question is that she
Speaker 1: notes that a lot of people in their community buy
Speaker 1: a vacation home at some point where that becomes financially feasible.
Speaker 1: Neither of you have ever talked about doing that, So
Speaker 1: maybe talk why you haven't made this a financial priority
Speaker 1: for either now or in the future.
Speaker 2: So Sarah, Yeah, I mean I also know people who
Speaker 2: have done this as investments, and honestly, sometimes it works
Speaker 2: out very well. Sometimes it doesn't. But you could purchase
Speaker 2: a beach house with the idea that you're going to
Speaker 2: use it for some part of the year, but you're
Speaker 2: also going to rent it out for the lot of
Speaker 2: the year, so it's not always even you know, it
Speaker 2: sounds very like extravagant, but it may actually be sort
Speaker 2: of a business decision for some people. All that said,
Speaker 2: I have no desire to manage even my own current house,
Speaker 2: so adding another house to our list of things to
Speaker 2: think about is just like a hard no. We also
Speaker 2: prefer the idea of flexibility and being able to go
Speaker 2: to different places. I mean, it is true we tend
Speaker 2: to kind of choose the same locations sometimes to repeat,
Speaker 2: but I don't think I want to be locked into them.
Speaker 2: I mean, if I have a bad ski year at
Speaker 2: Big Sky, then I want to go to Colorado the
Speaker 2: year after and not be like, well, we have a
Speaker 2: house here, like I guess, I just I want to
Speaker 2: be open to more possibilities than one would have if
Speaker 2: you had a house in one specific places. So I
Speaker 2: don't see this in our future now. If we are
Speaker 2: like very very lucky to have the means to someday
Speaker 2: maybe not spend summer in Florida on, that could change
Speaker 2: the calculus, especially if they were like kids to live near.
Speaker 2: I don't know that happened to be in a beautiful,
Speaker 2: picturesque Vermont village where there were affordable summer homes. Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: my calculus might change, But for now I've noticed.
Speaker 1: I mean, so I would say, like landlording in general.
Speaker 1: I mean this is obviously we have people who listen
Speaker 1: to this who landlord professionally and I'm sure do an
Speaker 1: awesome job and it can be a great career. And
Speaker 1: then there are people who also do it as a
Speaker 1: side hustle. I think you need to sort of be
Speaker 1: clear that it's not passive income in any way, shape
Speaker 1: or form. You can pay a management company, but you're
Speaker 1: still dealing with some of it. So the question is,
Speaker 1: would you prefer that work to doing more, for instance,
Speaker 1: of the work you do in your main job. And
Speaker 1: I think for my husband and me, we definitely prefer
Speaker 1: the job that we do as our main job to
Speaker 1: adding any sort of side hustle job. You know, I
Speaker 1: think landlording is often somebody people like, well, I don't
Speaker 1: want to work in an office, so I'm going to
Speaker 1: come up with something else I can do that can
Speaker 1: make money while I don't work for myself, And that
Speaker 1: can be a great option. But if you prefer your
Speaker 1: existing job, don't think that's what you need to do
Speaker 1: in order to necessarily bring in extra money for that.
Speaker 1: But even with that, like home number one, is challenging. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think having home number two to also deal with with,
Speaker 1: just like earlier as the sound of the dog. I
Speaker 1: don't know if anyone heard that. It's probably because the
Speaker 1: plumber was leaving now because we have the plumber here
Speaker 1: dealing with something today. I mean, just one house has issues.
Speaker 1: I feel like a second house would have more issues,
Speaker 1: especially if that house is in some sort of ruggedly
Speaker 1: beautiful location. Like if you are on the beach, guess what,
Speaker 1: there are storms on the beach. It's often pretty in summer,
Speaker 1: but if you're somewhere on the East Coast, you gotta
Speaker 1: have horrible winter storms that could do damage to your house.
Speaker 1: You know, if you're off in the mountains, like if
Speaker 1: you're in somewhere gorgeous Colorado, I don't know, there might
Speaker 1: be for uss. Yeah, like the places that are beautiful
Speaker 1: maybe more close to nature, and nature is wonderful. Nature
Speaker 1: can also do things to your house, so just keep
Speaker 1: that in mind. We also like going to different places
Speaker 1: and not just each year. Like my husband loves skiing
Speaker 1: and I love the beach. So I'm not sure where
Speaker 1: we'd buy the house because I would want the beach
Speaker 1: house and he would want the ski condo, and I
Speaker 1: don't think we're buying three houses total, so it's not
Speaker 1: clear which one we would do. I just don't know
Speaker 1: what percent of our vacation weeks we would use to
Speaker 1: go to the vacation house. Like a lot of families
Speaker 1: around here that buy a house on the Jersey Shore,
Speaker 1: the model is that mom and the kids go out
Speaker 1: for the summer and then dad comes on the weekends.
Speaker 1: And that's just like not our model, Like it's not
Speaker 1: what I would want. I would have to make sure
Speaker 1: that I had childcare out there because I'd be trying
Speaker 1: to work, and so if that's part of your life,
Speaker 1: it's a lot harder to pull that off. So what
Speaker 1: we do is we've been renting the same beach house
Speaker 1: multiple years in a row for two weeks in the summer,
Speaker 1: and that kind of scratches that which for the most part. No,
Speaker 1: obviously they could sell it and then that would end
Speaker 1: it for us that we've been building traditions and memories
Speaker 1: around this place that isn't ours. There's always that danger,
Speaker 1: but for now that's been okay. And I'm not saying
Speaker 1: never because especially I think, as you said, as kids
Speaker 1: get older, it's kind of nice to have a place
Speaker 1: that they would want to come. I'm not sure that
Speaker 1: my kids would be that excited about visiting suburban Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1: Whereas if you have the beach house, like, oh well,
Speaker 1: we'll bring our kids for a week of vacation at
Speaker 1: the beach house, or if the ski condo, like, we'll
Speaker 1: bring our family to stay for a week in ski
Speaker 1: at your ski condo. But obviously that's not the case
Speaker 1: for us yet, so we'll see at some point in
Speaker 1: the future.
Speaker 2: I will say my aunt and uncle bought a house
Speaker 2: in Avalon, New Jersey, on the Jersey Shore for I
Speaker 2: think exactly that purpose, and it did work, and now
Speaker 2: they've moved into it as their primary home. So that's
Speaker 2: always an option as well, where you're actually kind of
Speaker 2: moving toward and eventual transition rather than hoping to own
Speaker 2: two homes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, my husband's sister and her husband they built a
Speaker 1: house on a lake in North Carolina and they actually
Speaker 1: retired there. That they were going back and forth between them,
Speaker 1: but the idea is that once they left their full
Speaker 1: time jobs, they would wind up there, and so that's
Speaker 1: what they've done. Seemed to like it a lot, So yeah,
Speaker 1: that can be a transition that you're thinking of making
Speaker 1: at some point too. All right, well, love of the week, Sarah,
Speaker 1: what is your love of the week this week?
Speaker 2: What is my love of the week. That's a great question.
Speaker 2: I know, I wrote it down the book. Yeah, well,
Speaker 2: speaking of beach houses, this is perfectly on theme. Just
Speaker 2: finished Sandwich by Catherine Newman, which is a novel set
Speaker 2: at a beach house. A week at a beach house
Speaker 2: with a kind of mid fifties woman, her husband, her parents,
Speaker 2: and her twenty something kids, and honestly, not like that
Speaker 2: much happens, but it was just so delightful and it
Speaker 2: put me in the phase of mind of like, well
Speaker 2: will that phase of my life perhaps look like? And
Speaker 2: I don't know, it was so good. I loved it.
Speaker 1: Recommend Yeah, maybe I'll have to read it. I know
Speaker 1: that sounds like a good one. So my love of
Speaker 1: the week is pickles. I did not grow up eating pickles.
Speaker 1: I don't know if my parents just don't like them.
Speaker 1: It was just never a food that was in the house.
Speaker 1: You know how you have these things that there's like
Speaker 1: foods that never enter your life because your parents either
Speaker 1: don't like them or they didn't grow up eating them
Speaker 1: or something, and you know even when I'd watched them,
Speaker 1: like at restaurants, they would always like, pick the pickles
Speaker 1: off a burger. I don't know. So in my mind
Speaker 1: pickles are something you like pick off your burger, like
Speaker 1: the toothpick you pull it out. I don't know it
Speaker 1: just and then at some point I'm like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll try them, and I like them, and especially I
Speaker 1: like the big kosher dill ones. This are not necessarily
Speaker 1: the little buttany ones that put on a fast food
Speaker 1: hammer or that's that's kind of not that great, but
Speaker 1: the big fat kosher dill ones, especially if you buy
Speaker 1: good ones, excellent eating and having that as a side
Speaker 1: with sandwiches, burgers, everything else for summer meals and making
Speaker 1: up for lost time in terms of pickle consumption in
Speaker 1: my life.
Speaker 2: Pickles are so good. I'm glad you discovered them.
Speaker 1: Yes, as I'm pondering, like, what are the foods my
Speaker 1: children will never know about, because like I don't buy
Speaker 1: them or something you just don't even think about it.
Speaker 1: I don't know, you never know, Cilantro c Laandro, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that'll be for you. All right, Well, this has been
Speaker 1: best in both worlds. We've been talking about designing your
Speaker 1: ideal workweek, whether you have a part time schedule, hybrid schedule,
Speaker 1: whatever it is, what are the things you should be
Speaker 1: thinking about. We will be back next week with more
Speaker 1: on making work and life fit together.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the
Speaker 2: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram,
Speaker 2: and you can.
Speaker 1: Find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has
Speaker 1: been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us
Speaker 1: next time for more. I'm making work and life work together.