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Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,

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Speaker 1: and speaker.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician,

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Speaker 2: writer and course creator. We are two working parents who

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Speaker 2: love our careers and our families.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about

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Speaker 1: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.

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Speaker 1: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.

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Speaker 1: We want you to get the most out of life.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This

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Speaker 1: episode is airing at the end of July of twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty four. We're going to be discussing how to design

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Speaker 1: your ideal work week. So lots of people have more

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Speaker 1: flexibility these days in terms of when and how and

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Speaker 1: where they work. So if you are in a position

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Speaker 1: where you can choose these things, it might be worth

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Speaker 1: spending a little bit of time thinking about it and

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Speaker 1: considering different things that might matter to you and that

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Speaker 1: might make your schedule feel more doable. This episode is

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Speaker 1: about creating an ideal work week schedule if you are

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Speaker 1: thinking of working part time, what those hours should be

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Speaker 1: if you work full time, but can set your own

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Speaker 1: hours what those might look like, or if you have

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Speaker 1: a hybrid schedule where you're in the office some days

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Speaker 1: and working from home some days, you might be wanting

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Speaker 1: to figure out when it is best to work from

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Speaker 1: home or work from work. And so we're going to

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Speaker 1: give a couple ideas of things to think about, frameworks

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Speaker 1: to consider, and all that. So Sarah, maybe you can

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about what your work life looks

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Speaker 1: like right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and also kind of what inspired this episode a

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Speaker 2: little bit. I work part time. You guys know that,

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Speaker 2: you listeners know. I have three patient days per week.

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Speaker 2: Two of those are full days, like basically a full

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Speaker 2: business day, and then one of them is kind of

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Speaker 2: like two thirds full. As my colleagues get half day

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Speaker 2: of an admin kind of time to call patients back

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Speaker 2: per week, and mine is a little bit less in proportion

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Speaker 2: to my kind of patient care role. And every year

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Speaker 2: around July we have to figure out the schedule going

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Speaker 2: forward basically until December of the next year.

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Speaker 1: So, Sarah, July for the following year seems awfully early.

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Speaker 1: What's going on with that?

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Speaker 2: Well, the truth is that it's easier for to book

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Speaker 2: an entire year at once because the clinic schedules all

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Speaker 2: kind of are built around the call schedule, and the

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Speaker 2: call schedule has to be equal and kind of waited

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Speaker 2: with various people. Plus there's the fact that a lot

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Speaker 2: of what we do is very kind of long term,

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Speaker 2: Like we see a lot of patients every six months,

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Speaker 2: for example, or some patients even a year later, and

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Speaker 2: so it's best if they can book their next appointment

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Speaker 2: while they're at the office. I know, I definitely prefer

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Speaker 2: it when I'm getting anything done for my teeths, my hair,

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Speaker 2: to be booking my next appointment right then and there.

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Speaker 2: And in order to do that, you have to have schedules,

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Speaker 2: which means you have to have call schedules, which means

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Speaker 2: the doctors have to actually figure all this stuff out

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Speaker 2: way in advance. And there is certainly the ability to

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Speaker 2: swap like if I have an event into November of

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five right now, I could certainly figure something out,

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Speaker 2: but for the most part, we have to kind of

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Speaker 2: I don't know, decide on vacation requests, kind of do

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Speaker 2: all that stuff. And then one of the things that

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Speaker 2: I had to do was that basically since some part time,

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Speaker 2: I asked like, is there do I have flexibility? Like,

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Speaker 2: do I have to stay Monday, Wednesday Friday? And I

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Speaker 2: was told, no, actually you do. You like, we have

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Speaker 2: like enough office space that you can tell me what

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Speaker 2: three days you want to work and we will build

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Speaker 2: that in for twenty twenty five. So I was like, Wow,

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Speaker 2: that's really fun. I get a clean slate to design

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Speaker 2: my work week for next year based on what I've

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Speaker 2: learned doing this three d a week thing so far,

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Speaker 2: which I've been doing since October of twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 2: So I guess I have been Monday, Wednesday Friday for

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Speaker 2: two years now and really really enjoying it. But there

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Speaker 2: was some things that I did not love. So my

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Speaker 2: laundry list of complaints. So I'm just kidding.

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Speaker 1: Yes, no, well what I mean, because I feel like

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Speaker 1: it's been good, but there were a couple of things

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Speaker 1: that you thought maybe could be tweaked.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And the reasons that I chose Monday, Wednesday Friday

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Speaker 2: in the first place is that I was nervous about

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Speaker 2: having any significant length of time go on between business days,

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Speaker 2: if that makes sense. Like some people are like, why

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Speaker 2: don't you do Wednesday, Thursday, Friday? And then you have

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Speaker 2: like a built in five day weekend. But I don't

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Speaker 2: want someone to get a result, a result to come

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Speaker 2: back at six pm on Friday and then may not

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Speaker 2: be able to like respond to that result until the

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Speaker 2: next Wednesday. Like that's way too long. So I wanted

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Speaker 2: to minimize that and that worked out okay. But the

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Speaker 2: things that I didn't love were that Monday holidays are

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Speaker 2: really really frequent, and a lot of times they would

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Speaker 2: just eat up a vacation day because for us, I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is getting into the weeds, but our vacations are

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Speaker 2: like holidays are included in our pl days, which actually,

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Speaker 2: in my mind makes it more fair in a way,

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Speaker 2: because every day is kind of created equal and you

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Speaker 2: can decide whether to take December twenty fifth off and

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Speaker 2: it's Christmas or February fourth, and either way it counts

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Speaker 2: the same. And so for me, that would just ate

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Speaker 2: up a lot of Mondays. And the other thing is

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Speaker 2: that there was no easy way for me to take

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Speaker 2: any three day weekend without taking a paid leave day,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, I did that to myself.

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Speaker 2: But it would be nice to be able to either

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Speaker 2: do Saturday, Sunday, Monday or Friday or Saturday Sunday without

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Speaker 2: using up paid leave. In addition, the Monday after call

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Speaker 2: is I talked about it in the last episode. It's

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Speaker 2: like torture, Like I've worked a solid week and then

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Speaker 2: I have to work a solid day, and I guess

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Speaker 2: it's not torture. I could do it, but I would

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Speaker 2: prefer not too if it's not necessary, And this would

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Speaker 2: allow me to actually have a day off, not off,

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Speaker 2: but like on my own as I finished call and

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Speaker 2: then finally, Mondays are just a little bit hectic, and

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Speaker 2: I definitely suffer from some degree of Sunday stress of

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Speaker 2: feeling like I have all the ducks, have to have

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Speaker 2: all the ducks in the row because the kids go

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Speaker 2: to school, and kind of once I get to work,

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Speaker 2: I'm just hitting the ground running. And I have a

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Speaker 2: very constrained Monday morning schedule, and so I just thought

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Speaker 2: it might be allow me to enjoy my weekend a

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Speaker 2: little bit more if Monday was a bit more flexible.

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Speaker 2: So for all those reasons, I went through a fairly

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Speaker 2: detailed analysis of all the options. I listened to what

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Speaker 2: people had to say. I've read a blog post about it,

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Speaker 2: and I actually heard from several people who work part

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Speaker 2: time including positions and the schedules that they liked, and

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Speaker 2: ultimately I went with Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday, with Thursday

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Speaker 2: being the shorter day. Oh, by the way, for some reason,

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Speaker 2: I'm not supposed to take the shorter day on Friday,

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Speaker 2: so that was not a choice. But Tuesday Thursday as

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Speaker 2: a shorter day and then Friday as a full day,

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Speaker 2: and then I think this is going to be a

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Speaker 2: pretty good happy medium. The only thing I noticed already

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Speaker 2: is that there were a few Thursday Friday things that

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Speaker 2: like instantly appeared on the calendar as soon as I

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Speaker 2: made this change, and I'm like, oh my god, well

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Speaker 2: now I'm meeting up too days every time I do

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Speaker 2: something like that. However, I do have a little bit

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Speaker 2: of leeway to sometimes like work a Wednesday, and so

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Speaker 2: I think I'll be able to put that to good

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Speaker 2: use and make up for some of this. So I'm

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Speaker 2: super excited and grateful that I had the opportunity to

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Speaker 2: kind of design things, and I assume that in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty six, as long as office space is not an issue,

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Speaker 2: I could redesign them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Well, now it'll be interesting to see how

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Speaker 1: it goes. I feel like there's gonna be pluses and

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Speaker 1: minuses in any version of this, and there's some constraints

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Speaker 1: either way, right Like if you didn't want to take

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Speaker 1: that many work days business days off in a row,

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Speaker 1: given the situation of needing to respond to people, then

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Speaker 1: it meant some obvious suggestions of how you would do

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Speaker 1: it wouldn't work. We also have to move around various

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Speaker 1: things in terms of when we record, but there's nothing

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Speaker 1: set with this, so we can do it whenever. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it'll be interesting to to see how it

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Speaker 1: works out.

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Speaker 2: Laura, do you think we will record on Mondays or Wednesdays?

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Speaker 2: Because those are going to be our new options.

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Speaker 1: I would say wednesdays, that would be my choice, agree,

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Speaker 1: because I tend to like to do my writing for

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Speaker 1: the week that has to get done on Monday. But

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Speaker 1: I'm open to different ideas so we can figure it out.

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Speaker 2: I think Wednesday will be excellent.

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Speaker 1: Wednesday we'll be recording. All right, there we go, all right, Well,

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Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick ad break and we'll

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Speaker 1: be back talking more about ways you might think about

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Speaker 1: going part time, working from home, designing your ideal work week,

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Speaker 1: and so forth. Well, we are back talking how to

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Speaker 1: design your ideal work week. We open with Sarah discussing

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Speaker 1: why she is going to be trying a Tuesday, Thursday,

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Speaker 1: Friday schedule for her clinical work next year, with her

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Speaker 1: Monday and Wednesday work from home days and her own

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Speaker 1: entrepreneurial stuff. If you are thinking of going part time,

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Speaker 1: there's obviously various things to consider. I mean, one thing

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Speaker 1: we always warn people have out here at best of

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Speaker 1: both worlds is don't automatically assume that that's going to

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Speaker 1: be the best of both worlds. We can. Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: talked last week about my manifestos, but this is another one.

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Speaker 1: In many jobs, there isn't a whole lot of accountability.

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Speaker 1: So when Sarah is working clinically, she is seeing patients,

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Speaker 1: there's not a whole lot of gray area about this,

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Speaker 1: like she's in an office seeing patients or she is

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Speaker 1: not doing that. So there's not like a patient randomly

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Speaker 1: when she's not on call. There's not a patient showing

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Speaker 1: up at her house at eight pm to be seen.

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Speaker 1: Whereas if you are working part time in many sort

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Speaker 1: of information related jobs, it is totally possible that something

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Speaker 1: will come up at like five pm on your non

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Speaker 1: work day and you are like, well, do I deal

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Speaker 1: with it or do I not? So if there's no accountability.

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Speaker 1: We often see women on part time schedules working more

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Speaker 1: hours than women on full time schedules. It's just that

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Speaker 1: it happens with different managers or in different settings, or

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Speaker 1: how strict your boundaries are. When I've collected time logs,

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Speaker 1: I've seen women on part time schedules working more hours

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Speaker 1: than women on full time schedules in the same company,

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Speaker 1: in the same company. So going part time definitely means

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Speaker 1: you will be paid less. It doesn't always mean you

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Speaker 1: will work less, so be very careful about what you

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Speaker 1: are doing. Also, if you are going to go part time,

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Speaker 1: be clear about what you are doing with the hours

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Speaker 1: that you are not working. In Sarah's case, she is

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Speaker 1: doing her podcasting, doing her course creation, working on her

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Speaker 1: book proposal, those various things.

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Speaker 2: Which I all if you are away, by the way,

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Speaker 2: which you all enjoy fun. Because you're going to give

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Speaker 2: another example, I would push back at like the financial

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Speaker 2: piece being that important, but the fun piece is very important. Okay,

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Speaker 2: give your example.

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Speaker 1: Well, just you know, I've had people say I need

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Speaker 1: to work part time because the laundry isn't getting done,

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Speaker 1: And I think that those are separate problems, right, And

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Speaker 1: somebody else could likely do the laundry for less than

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Speaker 1: what many people are earning in a professional capacity. So

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Speaker 1: make sure that if you are substituting lower paid labor

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Speaker 1: for higher paid labor, you understand what you are doing.

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Speaker 1: And maybe you want to make sure that if you

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Speaker 1: are giving up like the opportunity cost of a high income,

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Speaker 1: that you are doing something with the time that you

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Speaker 1: truly value, yes, as opposed to just that like the

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Speaker 1: house isn't getting clean, no one's cleaning the bathroom, so

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Speaker 1: I need to work part time. It's like, okay, hire

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Speaker 1: a cleaning service and keep working. I mean, maybe you

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Speaker 1: want the time to hang out with your kids, you

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Speaker 1: want the time to relax, you want to pursue a

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Speaker 1: creative hobby, you want to start your own business as

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Speaker 1: a different matter, but totally very careful with lower paid

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Speaker 1: labor substitution.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think the key really does have to

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Speaker 2: do with what you want to be doing. Yeah, which

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Speaker 2: maybe somebody loves laundry that much, but yeah, not mean.

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Speaker 1: But Sarah, so you did not want to do like

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Speaker 1: five shorter days and then do you know, like so

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Speaker 1: maybe you can talk a little bit about that consideration.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's different configurations you could choose should you

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Speaker 2: decide to take the leap and go part time. I

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Speaker 2: actually have a friend who works five shorter days. But

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Speaker 2: I think for most people that is a very dangerous

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Speaker 2: thing to do, because shorter days it's just going to

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Speaker 2: be very hard to kind of leave your work with

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Speaker 2: stuff hanging, and shorter days could become longer so so

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Speaker 2: quickly and so so habitually that all of a sudden

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Speaker 2: you are just working normal days. I will give my

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Speaker 2: one example of my friend who was so valuable to

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Speaker 2: the place where she's working that they essentially pay her

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Speaker 2: full time and she's like, I'm only going to be

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Speaker 2: there from this to this, and that works out very

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Speaker 2: very well for her. But I think as a general rule,

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Speaker 2: unless you're able to work out that kind of an arrangement,

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Speaker 2: this can be dangerous. I will also say, like, you know,

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Speaker 2: you could say, oh, I'm going to be there and

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Speaker 2: then available for emergencies later, and that would maybe be

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Speaker 2: okay if you know exactly how often the emergencies are

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Speaker 2: or what they are, or maybe if there's some sort

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Speaker 2: of contract arrangement where if there is said emergency. Every

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Speaker 2: time there is one, you get paid time and a

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Speaker 2: half or some financial incentive. But I don't know, seems

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Speaker 2: very dangerous to me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I understand why people do it, because

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Speaker 1: they're like, well that I can be home in the

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Speaker 1: afternoon for my kids. But you might be able to

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Speaker 1: work out something where you can often be home in

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Speaker 1: the afternoon for I mean school aged kids for instance,

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Speaker 1: because you're working from home, right and you're there, but

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Speaker 1: your eight year old, who can't be home alone, doesn't

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Speaker 1: actually need you to be on them, And so you

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Speaker 1: could work from eight to four full time, but you're

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Speaker 1: just home working most days, and so you're there physically

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Speaker 1: even though you're still doing work. I don't know, I

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Speaker 1: think it's that would be a rough one to assume

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Speaker 1: you should do. But if you are going to choose

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Speaker 1: certain days to work, you know, it's popular to take

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Speaker 1: Friday off, but that doesn't actually have to be the choice.

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Speaker 1: And many people find that Fridays might be a sort

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Speaker 1: of slower day in your workplace, so you might be

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Speaker 1: able to get more sort of done without as many distractions,

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Speaker 1: and so maybe that would be a good day to

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Speaker 1: take as a work day. If you have a long

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Speaker 1: commute or a very stressful job, maybe taking one of

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Speaker 1: the days off in the middle of the week would

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Speaker 1: be better because if you take Wednesday off, you only

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Speaker 1: are working two days in a row. And so if

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Speaker 1: it is a stressful job, or if it's a very

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Speaker 1: long commute, then and you only have to do it

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Speaker 1: twice before you get a day to not do it,

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Speaker 1: and I think that can be mentally helpful.

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Speaker 2: People also say that traffic is a little bit better

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Speaker 2: on Fridays, So if you have to drive in a

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Speaker 2: certain number of days, making one of them Friday could

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Speaker 2: actually be of benefit. People also can be in like

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Speaker 2: a better mood, so we'll talk about that when we

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Speaker 2: go into our hybrid work section. But that might be

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Speaker 2: a time that you might more want to kind of

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Speaker 2: nurture relationships and hang out with others versus being home

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Speaker 2: with your head down.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I would say another thing though, even if you

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Speaker 1: have complete flexibility of choosing when you are working part time,

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is something you know I've heard people do,

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Speaker 1: like I'm going to work from five to nine every morning.

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Speaker 1: I think you gotta be a little careful with this.

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Speaker 1: There's still this mindset. I think a lot of people

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Speaker 1: have that you shouldn't be doing work ever if your

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Speaker 1: kids are awake and available, And so people are like

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Speaker 1: trying to work part time by working from five to

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Speaker 1: eight in the morning and then one to three during

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Speaker 1: nap time. And I think that's a way to get

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Speaker 1: yourself exhausted. And given that there is nothing wrong with childcare,

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Speaker 1: it would be worth considering a different schedule. If you

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Speaker 1: are trying to work part time, it's okay to have

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Speaker 1: coverage for that. So hybrid though this has become more

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Speaker 1: and more of a thing. I mean not so much

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Speaker 1: in medicine, but certainly I mean with your friends. I

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Speaker 1: mean you're seeing like the number of people who can

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Speaker 1: work from home these days. It's just crazy.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And it seems like a lot of jobs that

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Speaker 2: went entirely remote now have some sort of fluctuating, sometimes

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Speaker 2: nebulous in office requirement like once a week, twice a week.

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Speaker 2: I actually some close friends of mine like all kind

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Speaker 2: of struggle with this and then they never know like

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Speaker 2: how often do they really have to go versus what

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Speaker 2: the rules are? So I think it can be probably

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Speaker 2: worth really intentionally thinking through when it makes sense to

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Speaker 2: be in the office and when it makes sense to

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Speaker 2: be home.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean a lot of companies have happened on

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Speaker 1: this sort of like, I of will be three days

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Speaker 1: in the office and two days at home. But then

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Speaker 1: what if people travel for work, Like how does that count?

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Speaker 1: Is that counting against the home days or the office days?

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Speaker 1: I think most people would counted against the office days.

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Speaker 1: But then you can't go on badge swipes or anything

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Speaker 1: like that. I mean some companies have tried to do

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Speaker 1: something ridiculous like you have to swipe one hundred and

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Speaker 1: forty times a year, But then that's going to lead

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Speaker 1: to people doing stuff like coming in for an hour

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Speaker 1: swiping and going home and working at home for various reasons.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're probably still doing their jobs, it's just

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Speaker 1: that their life works better, or maybe they can concentrate

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Speaker 1: more in their home office versus some open cubicle plan.

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Speaker 1: And given in a lot of offices you don't have

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Speaker 1: to swipe on the way out, it's almost impossible to police,

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Speaker 1: like how long the person is going to be there?

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Speaker 1: And I mean, how would you even do it? Like, oh,

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Speaker 1: they were they leaving for lunch or were they leaving

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Speaker 1: to go home? I don't know. So I think it

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Speaker 1: is better for organizations, if you are in a management capacity,

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Speaker 1: to be very clear on what people's jobs require, like

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Speaker 1: what are their objectives that they need to meet in

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Speaker 1: any given week, for instance. If you can do that,

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Speaker 1: try to figure out how do I know that this

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Speaker 1: person is doing a good job? And if these things happen,

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Speaker 1: then we know they are doing a good job. And

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Speaker 1: if they happen, then we don't need to be quite

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Speaker 1: so worried about where the work is happening. That said,

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Speaker 1: if you do have a hybrid office and you are

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Speaker 1: working for one of these places, it's probably worth coming

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Speaker 1: in from time to time. I mean, I know Sarah

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Speaker 1: and I have found that when we are in person together,

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Speaker 1: we have an easier time brainstorming, We have an easier

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Speaker 1: time sort of planning things that involve a lot of

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Speaker 1: back and forth. I mean, there are things that are

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Speaker 1: best done in person.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean I think I'm a fairly fairly extreme

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Speaker 2: outlier with this. Even with clinical work, I have some

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Speaker 2: colleagues who are like, oh, I'll do telehealth here and there,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, nope, nope, nope, want to go to

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Speaker 2: the office away from my house. Away from my kids

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Speaker 2: and talk to people in person as much as possible.

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Speaker 2: So there are things that are just more conducive to

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Speaker 2: face and face. I guess the problem is some people

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Speaker 2: who have this kind of voluntary hybrid arrangement. Unfortunately the

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Speaker 2: meetings aren't really like in person or they involve multiple

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Speaker 2: people who are out in California, so they're actually commuting

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Speaker 2: to an office so that they can then zoom with

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Speaker 2: people at like other remote offices, and like that's hard.

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Speaker 2: I hope that if anybody in the manager capacity or

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Speaker 2: has any power to change that is listening to, like, really,

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Speaker 2: if you're going to require people to come in to

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Speaker 2: make sure there's some in person natural components of their

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Speaker 2: day and that there are like meetings that involve contact

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Speaker 2: with others in that same building.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so some places are starting to do certain things

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Speaker 1: like a Wednesday catered lunch, right, that is understood that

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Speaker 1: this if you are working from home a lot, this

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Speaker 1: would be a good time to come in because all

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Speaker 1: the company higher ups will be there, so if you

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Speaker 1: want to talk with them, if you have things you

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Speaker 1: want to even just get FaceTime, that would be a

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Speaker 1: really good time to come in because you will see everybody,

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Speaker 1: and even just sort of consciously when you're planning your week,

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Speaker 1: thinking of those in office days as your social days,

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Speaker 1: and that the days that you're working from home are

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Speaker 1: more about putting your head down getting through those individual deliverables.

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Speaker 1: If you're going to be in the office, like make

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Speaker 1: sure you have some like in person meeting, some lunch

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Speaker 1: plans with a colleague, some coffee plans with a colleague,

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Speaker 1: or you're going out to happy hour with your team

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Speaker 1: afterwards or something too, you know, or going to an

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Speaker 1: in office learning event. Something to make it worthwhile mentally,

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Speaker 1: make it worth your commute, Yes, exactly, make their commute worthwhile.

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Speaker 1: So if you are doing the three to two, would

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Speaker 1: you do Monday Friday? I mean, that's a lot of

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Speaker 1: places are doing that, but would you? I mean, you

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Speaker 1: didn't choose that for your part time schedule, So maybe

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Speaker 1: you can talk about that.

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Speaker 2: You're saying, if I had to do two days in

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Speaker 2: office and three days.

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Speaker 1: Well, you are doing three days in an office, and

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Speaker 1: so thinking about from the commute perspective, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean you yeah, I mean maybe I would do it.

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Speaker 2: I would depend on what's happening in the office. If

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Speaker 2: there was like an all hands meeting. I would try

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Speaker 2: to I would work around that. I find one of

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Speaker 2: the other reasons that I chose Friday as a clinical

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Speaker 2: day because I could have even though I can't have

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Speaker 2: the short day Friday, I could have just said, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm just a Monday, Wednesday, Thursday. But I was worried

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Speaker 2: about my own ability to be productive on a Friday

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Speaker 2: at the end of a hard week. I think I'd

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Speaker 2: have more desire to just put my feet up and

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Speaker 2: not get a lot done. So to some extent, I

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Speaker 2: sort of based it on my I feel like I'll

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Speaker 2: be more productive because I know I'll be staying patient,

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Speaker 2: like I'll be forced. You don't really have a choice

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Speaker 2: when you go in for a clinical day, like you're working.

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Speaker 2: So I felt like this would serve would actually help

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Speaker 2: me from a productivity standpoint. So I don't know, maybe

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Speaker 2: I would do it the same.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll take a quick ad break and we'll talk

437
00:21:46,960 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 1: a little bit more about the Friday question. Well, we

438
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:06,680
Speaker 1: are back talking how to design a hybrid schedule. We've

439
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:08,880
Speaker 1: been talking about how to design a part time schedule.

440
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 1: So I mean I think that there would be something

441
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 1: we say for coming into the office on Friday gain,

442
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,199
Speaker 1: we talked about the traffic being lower, people might be

443
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 1: in a more social, festive mood, like if you know,

444
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:26,920
Speaker 1: you'd just be taking an so backing up. Like before COVID,

445
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 1: it was often this thing like you could maybe work

446
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 1: from home on Fridays, like that was the ultimate perk

447
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 1: if you had been in a company five years and

448
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,680
Speaker 1: you had high ratings, like you could negotiate to work

449
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 1: from home on Fridays, and like everyone sort of understood

450
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 1: that it was it meant you weren't really working, right,

451
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 1: Like that's the idea, is that people assume working from

452
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 1: home that you weren't working, and so Friday is the

453
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 1: low opportunity cost day. That was the day they were

454
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 1: willing to give up. So I think some of that

455
00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,360
Speaker 1: mindset is still there that people are like, well, we'll

456
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 1: have to have people in the office Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,

457
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 1: because people are just taking long weekends. But if you

458
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 1: actually view working from home about as productivity based, which

459
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 1: I do, then it doesn't actually make sense to take

460
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 1: Monday or Friday as your work from home days. With Tuesday, Wednesday,

461
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 1: Thursday in the office, I think it makes a lot

462
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: more sense to do something different I mean, certainly, maybe

463
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 1: it's that Monday, you come into the office and set

464
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:26,959
Speaker 1: your goals with your team for the week, and then

465
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 1: people can go execute on them on Tuesday and Wednesday,

466
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 1: and then you're back in the office as a team

467
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 1: on Thursday and Friday, and Thursday is when you're push push,

468
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: pushing through to get to all your deliverables, and then

469
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 1: Friday is more celebratory and social. I mean, I can

470
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 1: see that as making total sense as a rhythm where

471
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 1: you're still getting the work done and you're not writing

472
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 1: these days off as like oh, when people are working

473
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,160
Speaker 1: from home, they're not working. It's just that it makes

474
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,159
Speaker 1: sense for the rhythm of the work itself.

475
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:58,919
Speaker 2: Agree And I mean, there is just leting to be

476
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 2: said about Friday putting everybody in a more talkative and

477
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 2: happy mood. That's why we do our little office lunches

478
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,479
Speaker 2: on Friday. Actually, our division meetings tend to be Friday.

479
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 2: Like Friday is kind of when you like, I don't know,

480
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 2: want to hang out with each other and maybe just

481
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 2: wrap things up. There is a natural something there. I

482
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 2: think that if I had a company and I was

483
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 2: running it, I would encourage people to come in specifically

484
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 2: on Friday, maybe only for yeah, and I.

485
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:25,679
Speaker 1: Know there is a tendency for people to try to

486
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 1: leave as soon as possible on Friday, and so people

487
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 1: are always worried about, like, well, if we do this

488
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 1: celebratory Friday lunch, people are just going to walk out afterwards,

489
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 1: which may be the case. You can sort of work

490
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 1: with that by having lunch start at like the last

491
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 1: possible work lunch time at like one thirty, so you know,

492
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: kind of in that celebratory lunch from one thirty to

493
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 1: three or so, and then people are leaving around three,

494
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 1: which is you know, close to the end of the

495
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 1: day anyway, So that might be something to think about.

496
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 1: Or maybe it's that you have some sort of reception

497
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: at three o'clock, and you know, maybe there's complic things

498
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 1: with having alcohol involved in work and all that, but

499
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 1: you could do it some other sort of celebratory way

500
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 1: that you're clearly breaking for the week at like three

501
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: o'clock or something, and people would probably stick around to that.

502
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: Having something at like five point thirty on Friday is

503
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,120
Speaker 1: just ridiculous, Like, you know, people want to go home,

504
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: But I think you can manipulate that a little bit

505
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 1: to push it another hour to forward when people are

506
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: having that kind of end of the week celebration.

507
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 2: I don't think we're going to have any Madman style

508
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 2: drink krk coming around my office.

509
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 1: On the drink Kirk. Yes, I'm not sure. At a hospital,

510
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 1: that's a great idea.

511
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 2: No, I'm definitely not not advised, not advised at all.

512
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: But days that we work for ourselves, which for me

513
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 1: is every day, but Sarah for two days a week.

514
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,679
Speaker 1: I mean, have you gotten to sort of a rhythm

515
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 1: of if you think about designing those? I mean, do

516
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: you mostly work nine to five, Sarah? Or do what

517
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: do you view as your work hours on your work

518
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,199
Speaker 1: from home for yourself days?

519
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 2: Oh, that's a good question. I feel like I usually

520
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 2: work from kid drop off to around five most of

521
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 2: the time. Sometimes I have to finish earlier, but then

522
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 2: other times I can like sit in gymnastics and like

523
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 2: finish stuff on the later side. So I feel like

524
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,199
Speaker 2: on average it's like that. And it took me a

525
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 2: while to like decide to come up with certain rhythms,

526
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 2: but I definitely feel like I have where Tuesday is

527
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 2: like almost always recording day. It helps that, like my

528
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 2: best laid plans. Episodes are due by Tuesday, so I'm

529
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 2: almost always recording one, and then Laura and I often

530
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 2: do Tuesday as well. Thursday tend to be more like

531
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,719
Speaker 2: my own like creative work in the morning, working on

532
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 2: course stuff or writing, and then often at noon I

533
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 2: have some kind of like presentation, and then afternoons I

534
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:47,360
Speaker 2: just know, I'm like it's like more cleanup and less creation. Unfortunately,

535
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 2: so it does mean I'm fairly limited, and then I

536
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 2: tend to sometimes do it. I hate working at night,

537
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 2: like I do not do it. My brain is done.

538
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 2: But I feel like I've been like throwing in a

539
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 2: couple Saturday a little bit more frequently, just because it's

540
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 2: like kids are occupied and it's fun work anyway, and

541
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 2: it's like limited. So I think that's how I sometimes

542
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 2: make up for the fact that like maybe by Thursday

543
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 2: afternoon not all that productive. Yeah.

544
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, So for me, I tend to do my basic

545
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: weekly content creation on Mondays. I'm trying to get through

546
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 1: all my I have this new newsletter called vander Hacks

547
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,880
Speaker 1: over at Substack. I try to mostly have those written,

548
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: and mostly have my before breakfast podcast scripts written on

549
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: Mondays and whatever else is kind of like urgently needing

550
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: to get done during the week. Sometimes there are a

551
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 1: few small things, or I do a blog post Tuesday,

552
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: often recording if we're doing something, or if I'm doing

553
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: podcast notes for this but starting to do other things

554
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: in the afternoon. You know, I'll often set interviews for

555
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: longer term projects in the afternoon on Tuesday. Wednesday morning

556
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: is often a good before breakfast recording time. I try

557
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: to get through at pretty quickly, like do the whole

558
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: weeks in thirty to forty minutes max if I can,

559
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 1: and then use the rest of that day for longer

560
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: term projects. Same on Thursday, and then Friday is kind

561
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: of a mop up day whatever I didn't get to

562
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 1: or things on my punch list. I make a list

563
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,679
Speaker 1: of kind of small tasks that I don't want to

564
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: interrupt to the rest of my life. But I can

565
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 1: try to get done on Fridays. But I don't know,

566
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: I'm probably not quite as good about this as I

567
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 1: should be. I sort of often like to do what

568
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: I feel like doing. I've been getting better about making

569
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: a full on to do list for the next day

570
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: the day before, and there's been different parts in my

571
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 1: life where I've done that more readily. I don't know,

572
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: for whatever reason I haven't been. I'm getting back to

573
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: it because it allows me to feel a little bit

574
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: more like I'm on top of things, and then I

575
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: do have space for thinking up future stuff and working

576
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: on my book project and all that without worrying that

577
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: I'm forgetting something.

578
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 2: That makes sense. Yeah, I feel like when I get

579
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 2: into an unstructured day, I've already usually assigned myself a

580
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 2: few things that are kind of due, and then I

581
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 2: think about my rhythms for filling in the rest of it, like, Okay,

582
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 2: this is a writing morning, or this is a podcasting day,

583
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: et cetera. Cool.

584
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I do generally try to work it's

585
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: eight thirty to sometime in the late afternoon. I like

586
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: it when I can stretch it a little longer, like

587
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: I've been trying to sort of say hello to the

588
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 1: kids when they get home from camp or school and

589
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: then get back in for another hour hour and a half.

590
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: Sometimes I will drive a kid to an activity so

591
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: I can sit there and work there. I find that

592
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: I can get a lot written during sitting at the

593
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: sidelines of gymnastics or somewhere else like that, So stretching

594
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: it a little bit further into the evening as I

595
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: can makes sense.

596
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 2: Well, I will say there are some jobs where you're like, Okay,

597
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,239
Speaker 2: that's great, you have days that's real cute. But I'm

598
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 2: an er doctor and so this is like totally not

599
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 2: applicable to me, or some other job where most days

600
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 2: are going to feel kind of like the same, or

601
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 2: you know, maybe you're I don't know, I don't know

602
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 2: other careers like that, but you get what I'm saying.

603
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 2: I will say that sometimes you could still kind of

604
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 2: do a light version of this, where you make little

605
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 2: shifts in your day to maybe make days stand out

606
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 2: in different ways. So, for example, mentoring Mondays, you could

607
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 2: be like, Monday is the day I see if there's

608
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 2: any students around or someone below me, and just make

609
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: sure they're getting what they need, et cetera. You could

610
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 2: do like in the medical world, we have to do

611
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 2: cme in the law world at cle and you know,

612
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. So maybe Wednesdays you're like, Okay,

613
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 2: if I have a pocket of free time, that's when

614
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 2: I tackle these annoying modules that I have to do.

615
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: And then as we talked about Friday can often be

616
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 2: kind of a social day. So even if this episode

617
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 2: did not apply to you, because your job is in

618
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 2: general not flexible at all and maybe not remote, there

619
00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 2: might be ways that you can kind of build a

620
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: little bit of rhythm to your week.

621
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: Even so, and you've done the exercise of designing your

622
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: ideal week, like actually sitting down with some sort of

623
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: calendar or spreadsheet or whatever and making like, this is

624
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: what I want my week to look like, and it

625
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: can be very useful. It is super useful. So it's funny.

626
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 2: I think I was like, where did I get this from?

627
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 2: Because I think you mentioned something similar to this in

628
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 2: one hundred and sixty eight hours perhaps, But the actual

629
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 2: physical template that I use was kind of came from

630
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 2: the Full Focus Planner, which is the Michael Hyatt's company,

631
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 2: and every single quarterly planner had a spread where from

632
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 2: like six am to ten pm or whatever the hours

633
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 2: he chose, you were basically supposed to fill out like

634
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 2: what would I want my ideal week to look like?

635
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 2: So you can see if all these things you want

636
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: to do are actually realistic to put on the calendar,

637
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 2: because truthfully, if they don't fit on the calendar, they

638
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 2: are also not going to fit in your life, so

639
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 2: super valuable. And I was like, well, do you really

640
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 2: need this in every single planner? This is a quarterly planner,

641
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 2: And it turns out it was like, yes, I do,

642
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 2: I actually do, because there are just things that change

643
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 2: and make life's time constraints very very different. We are

644
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 2: in summer right now. Summer is completely different. I have

645
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 2: so much more time right now than I know I'm

646
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 2: going to have in just a couple of months, and

647
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 2: so thinking through how I want to use that ideally

648
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 2: is really really valuable. And my head is already spinning

649
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 2: thinking about what my ideal week will need to look

650
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 2: like come fall, because I have just already found out

651
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 2: that we basically have things until almost nine o'clock every

652
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: single weeknight next year, so certain things are going to

653
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 2: have to change. I personally really like to do it

654
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 2: in a vertical layout where you have the days of

655
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 2: the week on top and then kind of the hours

656
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 2: going down from the top to the bottom. Kind of

657
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 2: looks like if you're a planner nerd like a hopuni

658
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 2: chee cousin the weekly pages or a hemlock an oak.

659
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 2: But obviously you could also create your own with this

660
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 2: configuration with a blank sheet of paper. It also kind

661
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 2: of looks like a Google calendar, so you could do

662
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 2: this digitally and actually create I have seen others create

663
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: an ideal week the it's digital that they can then

664
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 2: kind of superimpose on top of their real life and

665
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 2: see how close it's actually coming, which is kind of fun.

666
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 2: So whatever you do, it's just you fill it out.

667
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 2: This is where my workout goes, this is when I'm

668
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 2: going to clean up from dinner, this is where my

669
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 2: work hours are. This is my sleep, and you see

670
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 2: does everything actually fit? And I really believe that doing

671
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 2: this every single season is very helpful and has has

672
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 2: helped me figure out what I need to say no

673
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 2: to and has also helped me realize when I have

674
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 2: a little bit more open time to do more.

675
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think this can help you sort of

676
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: think creatively. I mean, we mentioned briefly the idea of

677
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: like if you can set your hours more like you

678
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: work in someplace that's more flexible, like what you might

679
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: decide to do. And so if you're generally aiming for

680
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: forty hours a week, you might decide to do two

681
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: longer days for instance, that you might decide, well, it's

682
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: worth it to me to work till seven or eight

683
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: o'clock on these two days, and then I'm going to

684
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: purposefully work shorter on other days for whatever reason that is.

685
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: And you know, you have a company culture that will

686
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: respect that or whatever it is. But or if you

687
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: work for yourself, I mean, maybe that's what you could

688
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: decide that you know, there are some things that it

689
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:09,240
Speaker 1: helps me to be able to do in the evenings,

690
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: or I like to get to the flow of things,

691
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: and so I'm going to purposely choose these two long

692
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: days and then I'm gonna take shorter days and I'm

693
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: gonna feel totally fine about it on these days. But

694
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: when you see the whole week, you can do that

695
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 1: in a way that it's harder to when you're just

696
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: kind of focused on individual days. You're like, oh, gosh,

697
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: I'm working so late. This is maybe not what I

698
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: should be doing. It's like, well, but if there's a

699
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: reason for it, because you are fitting forty hours in

700
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: the week in this way, then it helps to be

701
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 1: able to see that.

702
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 2: I will get back to everyone when I figure out

703
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 2: how I'm going to work out, get enough sleep and

704
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 2: deal with my kids. Activities until nine pm. But that

705
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 2: is going to be a fun puzzle to have to

706
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 2: try to.

707
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: Take some of the nights off, right, Like, I mean,

708
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 1: I think that some nights you will not be responsible

709
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,280
Speaker 1: for any activities and then you can do some stuff.

710
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: Then I guess, let's hope. Yeah, that sounds good. Well,

711
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: So pivoting to our q es for the week. Sarah,

712
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: this one more or less the person rights should I

713
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 1: buy a beach house? And the question is that she

714
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: notes that a lot of people in their community buy

715
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: a vacation home at some point where that becomes financially feasible.

716
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 1: Neither of you have ever talked about doing that, So

717
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,760
Speaker 1: maybe talk why you haven't made this a financial priority

718
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: for either now or in the future.

719
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 2: So Sarah, Yeah, I mean I also know people who

720
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 2: have done this as investments, and honestly, sometimes it works

721
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:38,240
Speaker 2: out very well. Sometimes it doesn't. But you could purchase

722
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 2: a beach house with the idea that you're going to

723
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 2: use it for some part of the year, but you're

724
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 2: also going to rent it out for the lot of

725
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 2: the year, so it's not always even you know, it

726
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,399
Speaker 2: sounds very like extravagant, but it may actually be sort

727
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 2: of a business decision for some people. All that said,

728
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 2: I have no desire to manage even my own current house,

729
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 2: so adding another house to our list of things to

730
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 2: think about is just like a hard no. We also

731
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 2: prefer the idea of flexibility and being able to go

732
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 2: to different places. I mean, it is true we tend

733
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 2: to kind of choose the same locations sometimes to repeat,

734
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 2: but I don't think I want to be locked into them.

735
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 2: I mean, if I have a bad ski year at

736
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 2: Big Sky, then I want to go to Colorado the

737
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 2: year after and not be like, well, we have a

738
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 2: house here, like I guess, I just I want to

739
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 2: be open to more possibilities than one would have if

740
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 2: you had a house in one specific places. So I

741
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 2: don't see this in our future now. If we are

742
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 2: like very very lucky to have the means to someday

743
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: maybe not spend summer in Florida on, that could change

744
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,359
Speaker 2: the calculus, especially if they were like kids to live near.

745
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 2: I don't know that happened to be in a beautiful,

746
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 2: picturesque Vermont village where there were affordable summer homes. Like, yeah,

747
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 2: my calculus might change, But for now I've noticed.

748
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: I mean, so I would say, like landlording in general.

749
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: I mean this is obviously we have people who listen

750
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: to this who landlord professionally and I'm sure do an

751
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: awesome job and it can be a great career. And

752
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: then there are people who also do it as a

753
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: side hustle. I think you need to sort of be

754
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: clear that it's not passive income in any way, shape

755
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 1: or form. You can pay a management company, but you're

756
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: still dealing with some of it. So the question is,

757
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 1: would you prefer that work to doing more, for instance,

758
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: of the work you do in your main job. And

759
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: I think for my husband and me, we definitely prefer

760
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: the job that we do as our main job to

761
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 1: adding any sort of side hustle job. You know, I

762
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 1: think landlording is often somebody people like, well, I don't

763
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 1: want to work in an office, so I'm going to

764
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 1: come up with something else I can do that can

765
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: make money while I don't work for myself, And that

766
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,879
Speaker 1: can be a great option. But if you prefer your

767
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: existing job, don't think that's what you need to do

768
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 1: in order to necessarily bring in extra money for that.

769
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 1: But even with that, like home number one, is challenging. Yeah,

770
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 1: I think having home number two to also deal with with,

771
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: just like earlier as the sound of the dog. I

772
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: don't know if anyone heard that. It's probably because the

773
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:17,919
Speaker 1: plumber was leaving now because we have the plumber here

774
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: dealing with something today. I mean, just one house has issues.

775
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 1: I feel like a second house would have more issues,

776
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: especially if that house is in some sort of ruggedly

777
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 1: beautiful location. Like if you are on the beach, guess what,

778
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,240
Speaker 1: there are storms on the beach. It's often pretty in summer,

779
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: but if you're somewhere on the East Coast, you gotta

780
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,280
Speaker 1: have horrible winter storms that could do damage to your house.

781
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: You know, if you're off in the mountains, like if

782
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 1: you're in somewhere gorgeous Colorado, I don't know, there might

783
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 1: be for uss. Yeah, like the places that are beautiful

784
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 1: maybe more close to nature, and nature is wonderful. Nature

785
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: can also do things to your house, so just keep

786
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 1: that in mind. We also like going to different places

787
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 1: and not just each year. Like my husband loves skiing

788
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:11,879
Speaker 1: and I love the beach. So I'm not sure where

789
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: we'd buy the house because I would want the beach

790
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: house and he would want the ski condo, and I

791
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: don't think we're buying three houses total, so it's not

792
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: clear which one we would do. I just don't know

793
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: what percent of our vacation weeks we would use to

794
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: go to the vacation house. Like a lot of families

795
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 1: around here that buy a house on the Jersey Shore,

796
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: the model is that mom and the kids go out

797
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 1: for the summer and then dad comes on the weekends.

798
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: And that's just like not our model, Like it's not

799
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 1: what I would want. I would have to make sure

800
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:46,919
Speaker 1: that I had childcare out there because I'd be trying

801
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: to work, and so if that's part of your life,

802
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 1: it's a lot harder to pull that off. So what

803
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: we do is we've been renting the same beach house

804
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: multiple years in a row for two weeks in the summer,

805
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: and that kind of scratches that which for the most part. No,

806
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 1: obviously they could sell it and then that would end

807
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: it for us that we've been building traditions and memories

808
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: around this place that isn't ours. There's always that danger,

809
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: but for now that's been okay. And I'm not saying

810
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 1: never because especially I think, as you said, as kids

811
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: get older, it's kind of nice to have a place

812
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 1: that they would want to come. I'm not sure that

813
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: my kids would be that excited about visiting suburban Pennsylvania.

814
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 1: Whereas if you have the beach house, like, oh well,

815
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: we'll bring our kids for a week of vacation at

816
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: the beach house, or if the ski condo, like, we'll

817
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 1: bring our family to stay for a week in ski

818
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: at your ski condo. But obviously that's not the case

819
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: for us yet, so we'll see at some point in

820
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: the future.

821
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,439
Speaker 2: I will say my aunt and uncle bought a house

822
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 2: in Avalon, New Jersey, on the Jersey Shore for I

823
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: think exactly that purpose, and it did work, and now

824
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 2: they've moved into it as their primary home. So that's

825
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 2: always an option as well, where you're actually kind of

826
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 2: moving toward and eventual transition rather than hoping to own

827
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 2: two homes.

828
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, my husband's sister and her husband they built a

829
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: house on a lake in North Carolina and they actually

830
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,919
Speaker 1: retired there. That they were going back and forth between them,

831
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: but the idea is that once they left their full

832
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: time jobs, they would wind up there, and so that's

833
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 1: what they've done. Seemed to like it a lot, So yeah,

834
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 1: that can be a transition that you're thinking of making

835
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 1: at some point too. All right, well, love of the week, Sarah,

836
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 1: what is your love of the week this week?

837
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,240
Speaker 2: What is my love of the week. That's a great question.

838
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 2: I know, I wrote it down the book. Yeah, well,

839
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 2: speaking of beach houses, this is perfectly on theme. Just

840
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 2: finished Sandwich by Catherine Newman, which is a novel set

841
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 2: at a beach house. A week at a beach house

842
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 2: with a kind of mid fifties woman, her husband, her parents,

843
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 2: and her twenty something kids, and honestly, not like that

844
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 2: much happens, but it was just so delightful and it

845
00:41:58,160 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 2: put me in the phase of mind of like, well

846
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 2: will that phase of my life perhaps look like? And

847
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 2: I don't know, it was so good. I loved it.

848
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: Recommend Yeah, maybe I'll have to read it. I know

849
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 1: that sounds like a good one. So my love of

850
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: the week is pickles. I did not grow up eating pickles.

851
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 1: I don't know if my parents just don't like them.

852
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: It was just never a food that was in the house.

853
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: You know how you have these things that there's like

854
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,919
Speaker 1: foods that never enter your life because your parents either

855
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 1: don't like them or they didn't grow up eating them

856
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 1: or something, and you know even when I'd watched them,

857
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: like at restaurants, they would always like, pick the pickles

858
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 1: off a burger. I don't know. So in my mind

859
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 1: pickles are something you like pick off your burger, like

860
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: the toothpick you pull it out. I don't know it

861
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 1: just and then at some point I'm like, well, yeah,

862
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 1: I'll try them, and I like them, and especially I

863
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 1: like the big kosher dill ones. This are not necessarily

864
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,399
Speaker 1: the little buttany ones that put on a fast food

865
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 1: hammer or that's that's kind of not that great, but

866
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 1: the big fat kosher dill ones, especially if you buy

867
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:01,280
Speaker 1: good ones, excellent eating and having that as a side

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00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 1: with sandwiches, burgers, everything else for summer meals and making

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Speaker 1: up for lost time in terms of pickle consumption in

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Speaker 1: my life.

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00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 2: Pickles are so good. I'm glad you discovered them.

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00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 1: Yes, as I'm pondering, like, what are the foods my

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00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,959
Speaker 1: children will never know about, because like I don't buy

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00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 1: them or something you just don't even think about it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, you never know, Cilantro c Laandro, Yeah,

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00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: that'll be for you. All right, Well, this has been

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00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 1: best in both worlds. We've been talking about designing your

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00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:35,320
Speaker 1: ideal workweek, whether you have a part time schedule, hybrid schedule,

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00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 1: whatever it is, what are the things you should be

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00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 1: thinking about. We will be back next week with more

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00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: on making work and life fit together.

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00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the

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00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 2: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram,

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00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 2: and you can.

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00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 1: Find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has

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00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,839
Speaker 1: been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us

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00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 1: next time for more. I'm making work and life work together.