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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Stephan Mix, the podcast that brings

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Speaker 1: the global economy to you, and there's no way around it.

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Speaker 1: We have an exercise in contrast on the program this

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Speaker 1: week in a few minutes, a hopeful report from Indonesia

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Speaker 1: on the new breed of work anywhere digital nomads and

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Speaker 1: how governments are redesigning their visa policies to attract them.

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Speaker 1: But before that, we have to talk about the dramatic

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Speaker 1: reduction and female reproductive rights that occurred in the US

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Speaker 1: last week when the Supreme Court overturned Row versus Wade.

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Speaker 1: The respected Oxford political economist Nyrie Woods has a troubling

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Speaker 1: global take on that decision. I have a fascinating conversation

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Speaker 1: with her in a few minutes. But first, here's Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: u S economy reporter Katia Dmitrieva. Do you have the

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Speaker 1: money to be a single mom? Like? What would you

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Speaker 1: what would you do? You have? Three thousands? Say exactly,

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Speaker 1: But I don't have the time to find at work,

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Speaker 1: Like where's the money going to come from? I'm just

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Speaker 1: gonna take care of the baby. Don't I have to

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Speaker 1: go to work there right now? Like every month, I

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Speaker 1: just say, let's say three hundred to five. I have

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Speaker 1: to pay a babysitter, now, food, diapersonal that I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna have money. I'm just gonna be working to pay

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Speaker 1: rent and to have a baby. So it's like, no,

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Speaker 1: what's the life out of that? That was Jane, a

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Speaker 1: student from Honduras who now lives in Texas. She's describing

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Speaker 1: what went through her head earlier this year after discovering

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Speaker 1: she was unexpectedly pregnant, but without the financial resources or

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Speaker 1: support to afford a child, and unwilling to take the

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Speaker 1: health risk. Jane, who's not using her real name for

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Speaker 1: fear of legal action or deportation, I knew that she

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Speaker 1: wanted an abortion, but getting one in a state that

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Speaker 1: passed tough restrictions just last fall was a different story.

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Speaker 1: She would end up breaking the law to get care.

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Speaker 1: Her only other option was to carry an unwanted pregnancy

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Speaker 1: to term. Jane's experience could now become a reality for

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Speaker 1: millions of people across the US. After the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: struck down Roe v. Wade, thirty three million people won't

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Speaker 1: have access or affordable access to care. Women who have

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Speaker 1: found greater equality in society and a greater foothold in

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Speaker 1: the economy may lose that. David Slusky, Associate professor of

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Speaker 1: economics at the University of Kansas, says the consequences are profound.

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Speaker 1: Loss of access to abortion, um and reproductive healthcare substantially

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Speaker 1: worsens the household financial outcomes and preventive care rates, and

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Speaker 1: educational attainment and income and professional advancement. Results in more

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Speaker 1: children to single mothers and to poor families and families

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Speaker 1: with the least resources to take care of these children.

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Speaker 1: It's tough to highlight immediate economic cause and effect, partly

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Speaker 1: because they take place across years, decades, and generations. Professor

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Speaker 1: Sluski was one of the one fifty four economists who

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Speaker 1: sent a brief to the Supreme Court in support of

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Speaker 1: upholding abortion access. They argued that three decades of research

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Speaker 1: has shown that it positively impacts a woman's lifelong finances,

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Speaker 1: wage potential, education, family wealth, and even things like credit scores.

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Speaker 1: Those who benefit most are young women and women of color,

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Speaker 1: like Jane. I spoke with her in her apartment near

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Speaker 1: Dallas in May. She's been in the US for about

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Speaker 1: seven years but is not legally able to work to

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Speaker 1: afford groceries rent and tuition. She works under the table

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Speaker 1: at a residential construction company, answering the phones up until April.

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Speaker 1: She also had a second job cleaning office buildings at night,

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Speaker 1: but lost it after severe morning sickness. Neither job provides

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Speaker 1: paid time off or health benefits. Well, I that week

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Speaker 1: that I was feeling really sick, they asked me like, no,

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Speaker 1: we don't have someone to substitute you. And I had

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Speaker 1: to go work like that, having nauseous and just feeling

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Speaker 1: like headaches, and they were like, no, you don't have

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Speaker 1: a substitute, so you have to go to work. I

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Speaker 1: just felt really bad, like I'm telling you, I'm sick.

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Speaker 1: The law in Texas prohibits abortions after roughly six weeks,

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Speaker 1: and for Jane, the few remaining clinics in the state

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Speaker 1: were so booked up that she probably would not have

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Speaker 1: been able to secure an appointment in time. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, because I cannot take time off from

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Speaker 1: my job. I already missed a week. I don't have

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Speaker 1: seek weaker, so I was just like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: I cannot. I cannot waste one work one more week.

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Speaker 1: So it's already seven and a half. Yeah, so it's

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Speaker 1: like I can't go to another place, like I need

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Speaker 1: to have them up home. If I go to Plan

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Speaker 1: Parer or whatever, they're gonna say like you're ready more

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Speaker 1: than six weeks. So Jane ended up taking pills her

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Speaker 1: friend sent her in the mail illegal in Texas to

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Speaker 1: induce an abortion after seven weeks. One side effect of

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Speaker 1: overturning row is that abortions are getting more expensive. That's

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Speaker 1: something Reverend Daniel Kantner of the First Unitarian Church of

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Speaker 1: Dallas hopes to help with. He's been working with other

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Speaker 1: groups to fly women from Texas to Albuquerque, New Mexico,

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Speaker 1: to get abortions after the six week mark, free of charge.

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Speaker 1: Some of the women already have children and can afford

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Speaker 1: or don't want more. Many have jobs, all of them

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Speaker 1: are below the poverty line. I spoke with him last

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Speaker 1: month at a rally in Dallas when the Supreme Court's

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Speaker 1: road decision was leaked and protests erupted across the country.

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Speaker 1: And these are the poorest people in in our communities.

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Speaker 1: This why when I say about this issue is it's

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Speaker 1: a war on the poor. It's black and brown women

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Speaker 1: and they're all poor, and they're all you know they

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Speaker 1: have no way to get themselves to the support, So

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Speaker 1: that's why we're in this now. Understandably, the Supreme Court's

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Speaker 1: ruling has triggered a lot of debate and soul searching

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Speaker 1: in the US and around the world, and as Katie

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Speaker 1: has suggested there, the implications for American women and for

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Speaker 1: the US economy are likely to be profound and quickly felt.

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Speaker 1: But we take a global view on Stephanomics, and when

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Speaker 1: you do that, you can see that the US is

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Speaker 1: not the only place where female freedoms are under attack.

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Speaker 1: Narie Woods is the Dean of the Blavatnic School of

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Speaker 1: Government and Professor of Global Economic Governance at the University

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Speaker 1: of Oxford, and she has made this point very forcefully

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Speaker 1: in a piece for the Project Syndicate website. I'm delighted

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Speaker 1: to say that Nara is here with me now. Thank

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Speaker 1: you very much for doing this for for Stephanomics. Snarry,

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Speaker 1: It's always lovely to talk to you. In your piece,

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Speaker 1: you talk about an increasingly wide ranging attack on women's liberty.

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Speaker 1: What kind of attacks are you thinking of? So? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, which is important because the Supreme Court are

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Speaker 1: balancing on the one side what they describe as the

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Speaker 1: autonomy of women, and on the other the rights of

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Speaker 1: the unborn child, and and I think people aren't looking

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Speaker 1: at what's happening to the autonomy of women. So I

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Speaker 1: in my article looked at two things, and one is

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Speaker 1: what's happening to the upholding of the right of women

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Speaker 1: not to be attacked and raped. That's a pretty basic

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Speaker 1: formal autonomy. And yet what we're seeing, even in the

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Speaker 1: United States and in the United Kingdom, which are two

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Speaker 1: countries which consider themselves to have a robust rule of law,

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Speaker 1: what we're seeing is ever increasing numbers of rapes being

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Speaker 1: recorded and reported to the police and declining numbers of

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Speaker 1: rapes being prosecuted. And and in Britain it's quite a

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Speaker 1: lot to do with with the cuts and funding to

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Speaker 1: the Crown Prosecution Service, cuts and funding to the court system.

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Speaker 1: So you know, there's a number of cases where the

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Speaker 1: police work really hard to put the file together, but

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Speaker 1: the case just doesn't get prosecuted, and when it does, it's,

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Speaker 1: you know, two or three years after the rape occurs,

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Speaker 1: the alleged rape occurs. So so my point was, you know,

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Speaker 1: it really struck me when I saw a young protester

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Speaker 1: saying you know, if I don't know, if I don't

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Speaker 1: want a baby, I shouldn't have sex. Um. And I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: do all women in the world actually have that choice?

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Speaker 1: When we look at global statistics on how many women

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Speaker 1: suffer rate and sexual abuse, whether in the home or

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Speaker 1: in the streets. Um, it's frightening. Um. And then you say, well,

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Speaker 1: women are not actually having that choice. And when you say, well,

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Speaker 1: whose job is it to uphold that autonomy? It's the

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Speaker 1: job of all of society. But in societies where there's

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Speaker 1: rule of law, you would expect it to be the

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Speaker 1: government's job to ensure that the police, the court system,

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Speaker 1: a criminal justice system, and the prosecution system are all

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Speaker 1: working effectively to protect the autonomy of women. And as

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Speaker 1: you suggest, it's not just about what laws are there,

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Speaker 1: because it's even we're not seeing laws enforced with the

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Speaker 1: kind of resources needed to try those rape cases, as

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Speaker 1: you suggested, But there are also changes in legislation that

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Speaker 1: are going against women. And I noticed, you know, we're

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Speaker 1: not just talking We're not talking about developing countries here.

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Speaker 1: I mean there's European as members of the European Union

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Speaker 1: that have been banning abortion. I think, particularly in Central

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Speaker 1: and Eastern Europe is that that is also a bit

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Speaker 1: of a trend. Yeah in Poland. You know, go further

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Speaker 1: north to Russia, and you know the world was aghast

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Speaker 1: that Russia decriminalized domestic violence or categories of domestic violence

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Speaker 1: a few years ago. But the people who were aghast

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Speaker 1: at Russia decriminalizing it, I think, failed to look at

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Speaker 1: their own countries and the fact that although it might

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Speaker 1: be on the statute books that it's illegal, it's not

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Speaker 1: being prosecuted, and other efforts aren't being made. And what

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Speaker 1: we do know and that the positive side of the

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Speaker 1: story is that actually violence against women, both rape and

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Speaker 1: domestic violence, they really are preventable things that the World

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Speaker 1: Health Organization and the United Nations have very very clear

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Speaker 1: lessons and guidelines about how any government and country and

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Speaker 1: society that wants to can really set about preventing violence

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Speaker 1: against women. And you know that the sadness for me

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Speaker 1: is that the Supreme Court, instead of looking in that direction,

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Speaker 1: looking forwards and saying, let's up hold the rights of

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Speaker 1: the unborn child and the rights of women and the

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Speaker 1: liberty of women, instead look backwards and say, well, what

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Speaker 1: is liberty? Until you know, the late twentieth century, Um,

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Speaker 1: there was no right to abortion, so why should there

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Speaker 1: be one now? And if they seem to overlook the

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Speaker 1: fact quite deliberately that in that version of liberty until

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Speaker 1: there was no right for women to vote, there was

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Speaker 1: no right for women to divorce, there was no right

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Speaker 1: in some countries for women to have property. There was

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Speaker 1: no right not to be raped if they were married

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Speaker 1: to the rapist. So so looking backwards to define liberty

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Speaker 1: takes us back to defining liberty as a concept, which

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Speaker 1: you know, in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries was liberty

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Speaker 1: for white men. And I think that's very worrying in

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court judgment decision. And I want to say

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Speaker 1: we'll have a little bit on the economic implications in

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Speaker 1: a minute, but just thinking about what's driving this, I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's obviously been particular governments that have come to power

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Speaker 1: in Central and Eastern Europe and elsewhere. There's certainly political

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Speaker 1: moves in Russia have taken taken us in that direction.

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Speaker 1: But did COVID also make somehow there's a more better

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Speaker 1: environment for for for infringing on women's rights or not

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Speaker 1: not protecting women's freedoms enough, I think COVID. You know,

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Speaker 1: the UN and the World Health Organization both tell us

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Speaker 1: that COVID hugely increased the problem. That in all countries

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Speaker 1: in which you had lockdowns, you saw more women being

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Speaker 1: attacked in their homes, more domestic violence, are more abuse,

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Speaker 1: and at the same time less access to help, less

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Speaker 1: access to justice, less access to support organizations. So the

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Speaker 1: effect of COVID is to have increased the problem. The

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Speaker 1: the the deeper question you're asking is did COVID reduce

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Speaker 1: the city to solve this? Did COVID unleash a greater

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Speaker 1: instinct towards authoritarianism and populism in populations? Um? You know,

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Speaker 1: we've we've here at the Blevanney School, we've done an

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Speaker 1: Oxford Government Response tracker. And one of the correlations that's

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Speaker 1: clear is that countries that had stringent lockdowns for a

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Speaker 1: long time have had the strongest political backlash against governments. UM.

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Speaker 1: And that can make it difficult. It also makes it

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Speaker 1: more tempting when there's a backlash against government for um,

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Speaker 1: what some people would call populists, but for people with exclusive,

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Speaker 1: narrow extremist messages to kind of dog whistle to certain

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Speaker 1: to use, you know, the crack cocaine of a kind

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Speaker 1: of that narrow exclusive nationalism or or culture wars to

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Speaker 1: very clearly affecting also women's involvement in politics itself absolutely,

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Speaker 1: and the frightening thing there is how international and universal

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Speaker 1: that is. You know, in my article, I sight the

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Speaker 1: evidence from Japan, from Sweden, from Canada, from the United Kingdom,

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Speaker 1: in all countries, the social media attacks that women are

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Speaker 1: suffering are quite specific. It's not that women get more

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Speaker 1: online harassment than men. It's that they get a very

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Speaker 1: different kind of online harassment if they're politicians that politics.

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Speaker 1: Male politicians get harassment for their for their policy platforms.

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Speaker 1: Women politicians get a kind of sexualized, threatening, physical, very

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Speaker 1: very personal abuse which makes their jobs terrifying in the instances.

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Speaker 1: And just to take things back, I mean, we tend

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Speaker 1: to focus more on the economics in this program, but

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Speaker 1: I think it's been it's it's valuable to tease out

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Speaker 1: all of these other elements. But you know, we have

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Speaker 1: heard a lot this week in the US about the

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Speaker 1: likely rise in maternal death there and the number of

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Speaker 1: children living in poverty as a result of making abortion

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Speaker 1: illegal or so much harder to get. And you know,

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Speaker 1: clearly there's a lot of economic fallout for an economy

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Speaker 1: if women have more children than they're ready for. Do

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Speaker 1: we have any evidence of the economic impact. I guess

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Speaker 1: it's much just much less tangible. But if women are

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Speaker 1: less vocal in public debates, if they're discouraged from politics,

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Speaker 1: if there's a sort of chilling effect on that, on there,

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Speaker 1: on those kind of discussions. On your first point, we

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Speaker 1: have very clear evidence that abortions in the United States

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Speaker 1: are more and more the resort of very poor women.

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Speaker 1: And we have very clear evidence from decades of development

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Speaker 1: economics that the more children a woman has are, the

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Speaker 1: less likely the prospects of those children. The less educated

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Speaker 1: a woman is, the less value she has as a

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Speaker 1: person in her own right other than as a mother,

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Speaker 1: the more likely she is to have a very large

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Speaker 1: number of children, not just as a choice, but also

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Speaker 1: as a as a as a circumstance. And if we

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Speaker 1: put all that together we see that if we want

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Speaker 1: a flourishing society with well educated, well nourished children UM,

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Speaker 1: and a society of people that can and will take

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Speaker 1: up jobs for which they need to be educated, we've

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Speaker 1: got to be looking at the rights of the born child,

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Speaker 1: not just the rights of the unborn child. And this

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Speaker 1: exclusive focus on the rights of the unborn child UM

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Speaker 1: does a terrible thing to society. It says, where interest

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Speaker 1: than you until you're born. But the day you're born,

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Speaker 1: you can live in complete poverty and have very little

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Speaker 1: chance of being educated or having opportunities in life because

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Speaker 1: our duties only extended to your moment of birth. Marry words,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much. So here's the handbrake turn, because

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Speaker 1: we're heading to Bali, where the government's changing its visa

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Speaker 1: policies to attract not just spiritual types looking to find themselves,

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Speaker 1: but digital nomads looking for son and good WiFi. Further

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Speaker 1: evidence of the way that the COVID pandemic has changed

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Speaker 1: the world of work, at least for the lucky few

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Speaker 1: who can work from any home they want. Here's Indonesia

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Speaker 1: Economy reporter Claire Yow. For the last two years, COVID

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Speaker 1: has redefined or working life. We got used to the

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Speaker 1: convenience of rolling out of bed and into a meeting

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Speaker 1: and the ease of spending the entire day in pajamas.

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Speaker 1: As we emerge from the pandemic, that's opened a debate

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Speaker 1: on what exactly the new world of work should look like.

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Speaker 1: On one side, there are business leaders like Testlas Elon

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Speaker 1: Musk urging everyone to spend at least forty hours a

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Speaker 1: week in the office or else. In leaked emails sat

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Speaker 1: to Teslas executive staff, Elon Musk told them, for the

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Speaker 1: most parts quotes, if you don't show up, we will

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Speaker 1: assume you have resigned. On the other there's Brian Chesky,

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Speaker 1: CEO of Airbnb, who announced that all their employees can

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Speaker 1: live and work anywhere in the world indefinitely. Flexibility is

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Speaker 1: the future. After compensation, Flexibly will be the most important

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Speaker 1: benefit employers can offer. The best people aren't just in

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Speaker 1: Silk and Valley either, not just in New York. The

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Speaker 1: best people are now everywhere in Any company that limits

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Speaker 1: their talent pole to a commut eating radius around the

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Speaker 1: office will be at a disadvantage. And then there's the

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Speaker 1: middle ground, living and working somewhere on an extended working vacation.

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Speaker 1: It's longer than your usual holiday, but shorter than permanent residents.

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Speaker 1: It's called business leisure travel. One of the joys of

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Speaker 1: Bangkok for me is the amazing cooking just about everywhere here.

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Speaker 1: I am along a street side getting some tad tie

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Speaker 1: before I bring it on home. Meet David Abraham. He's

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Speaker 1: the co founder of Outpost, a co living and coworking

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Speaker 1: community in Southeast Asia. Think of it as we work

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Speaker 1: for travelers. He runs this business on the goal this

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Speaker 1: week out of Bangkok, next week in Bali. Like many

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Speaker 1: of us, though, he used to be tied to an

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Speaker 1: office desk, working in the likes of Lehman Brothers and

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Speaker 1: the White House. It wasn't until a trip to Asia

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Speaker 1: in twenty twelve that he changed his mind. Thursday afternoon,

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Speaker 1: and I was in a Starbucks in Tokyo, and I

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Speaker 1: was doing work as I usually did, and I raised

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Speaker 1: my head and looked around and saw a number of

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Speaker 1: other people working and wondered, well, if they had to

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Speaker 1: be working in Tokyo and they were away from the office,

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Speaker 1: why did they even have to be in Tokyo at all?

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Speaker 1: Why couldn't they be in an amazing place like Polli,

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Speaker 1: and that's where I ended up, and the idea of

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Speaker 1: of coming in and creating a productive space for people

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Speaker 1: like myself was born. It all sounds great, but there's

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Speaker 1: just one little snag. The question our potential gates are

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Speaker 1: asking is also this, like how leiggal is it for

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Speaker 1: me to come and stay and work from there? This

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Speaker 1: is Thomas Despin. He runs a resort called Reconnect on

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Speaker 1: a remote island in Indonesia. Like David, he was also

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Speaker 1: lured by the idea of business leisure travel, the beauty

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Speaker 1: of having the best of both worlds. So when you

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Speaker 1: live in here, you have access of course to like

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Speaker 1: the whole island um to a pristine cold reef right

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Speaker 1: in front of the beach whites and beach. You have

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Speaker 1: access to all the water activities, so standard battle kayak,

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Speaker 1: you can go fishing with the local badge of people.

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Speaker 1: You can do all kind of beach activities, and of

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Speaker 1: course you have your own private space to focus and

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Speaker 1: work from without any destruction. M But when it comes

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Speaker 1: to immigration and tax issues, remote work tends to be

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Speaker 1: a gray area. Take Indonesia for example, Tourists can keep

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Speaker 1: entering on a thirty day visa, but staying in the

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Speaker 1: country for six months out of a twelve month period

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Speaker 1: would make you a tax resident in the eyes of

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Speaker 1: the law. This freak Thomas out since he was operating

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Speaker 1: US based business while staying in Bali. So when he

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Speaker 1: saw the law, he tried to file his income tax

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Speaker 1: at the local office, but he was met with confusion

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Speaker 1: from the authorities, and so actually went to the tax

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Speaker 1: office in in January in Bali and they loved him.

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Speaker 1: I gets really loved there, Like why would you pay

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Speaker 1: taxes here? They say, you know, so just you know,

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Speaker 1: like go back to La Engine to stay here, you

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Speaker 1: don't have to pay any tax. So that was actually fun.

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Speaker 1: It's not just workers who are grappling with this. Companies

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Speaker 1: are too. They worry that the presence of their employees

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Speaker 1: in another country could make them obligated to pay corporate

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Speaker 1: taxes there. That's not even counting the social security and

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Speaker 1: labor obligations they would have to comply with. According to

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Speaker 1: a survey by the h CFO Network, almost of companies

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Speaker 1: said corporate taxes are their biggest concern around allowing remote work.

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Speaker 1: Personal taxes are a closed second to that end. Tourist

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Speaker 1: hot spots like Thailand are moving fast to modify these

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Speaker 1: rules and lure these business leisure travelers onto their beaches.

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Speaker 1: Travelers will soon be able to apply for a long

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Speaker 1: term resident visa if they want to work remotely from Thailand.

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Speaker 1: The visa lasts for five years and comes with tax incentives.

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Speaker 1: Here's Thai Tourism and Sports Minister peep At Chakrakari, did

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Speaker 1: you don't know that we want tax digital nomads? Their

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Speaker 1: income is generated from overseas. So if you earn money

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Speaker 1: from other countries and come to work and travel in Thailand,

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Speaker 1: the Thai government won't collected text from you. There's no

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Speaker 1: such tax. You will only be taxed on your spending.

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Speaker 1: The value added tax rate is as seven percent. That

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Speaker 1: is an equal charge for both locals and foreigners. And

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Speaker 1: then across the ocean and Indonesia could also offer its

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Speaker 1: own five year viewsas soon, targeting remote workers and retirees.

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Speaker 1: Tourism ministers san Diego says that's potentially a billion dollar

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Speaker 1: opportunity for the island nation from millennials. Gen z all

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Speaker 1: the way to order entrepreneurs to reside in Vali or

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Speaker 1: any parts of Indonesia. With the support of digital infrastructures,

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Speaker 1: they can conduct their businesses. Uh. And this is something

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Speaker 1: that is so huge because one trillion dollars worth of

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Speaker 1: potentials that we can read, and if we could convert

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Speaker 1: that twenty you would see a three billion US dollars

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Speaker 1: worth of potentials that we could turn into business opportunity

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Speaker 1: and create jobs for the economic recovery. Despite the strong

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Speaker 1: will of policymakers, the legal wrangling could take years to

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Speaker 1: catch up. But David Abraham of Outposts is optimally stick

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Speaker 1: that we're on the fast track now more than ever.

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Speaker 1: If we're talking in two thousand seven right now, and

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Speaker 1: you were talking to the future me, and you would

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Speaker 1: tell me I could just go and to someone else's

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Speaker 1: house and spend a few nights there and I can

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Speaker 1: pay them and that's legal, I'd say, well, that's crazy.

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Speaker 1: But Airbnb came about. And then I can go into

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Speaker 1: someone else's car who's not regulated, that's not a taxi,

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Speaker 1: and I can pay them to drive me anywhere. And

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Speaker 1: so what I think, what we see over time is

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Speaker 1: that regulations do evolve and and and things do change. Um.

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Speaker 1: Business travel has always been in this nebulous situation. When

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Speaker 1: I go to a conference and and and speak do

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Speaker 1: I come in on? What regulation? Do I come in under?

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Speaker 1: Um There's always been a challenge that that companies have

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Speaker 1: had to had to navigate, and I think they've done

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Speaker 1: it quite effectively. Now there are new visa regimes coming in,

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Speaker 1: but I think that this is definitely a manageable situation.

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Speaker 1: As for governments, remote workers are a much needed lifeline

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Speaker 1: for a tourism sector that was so badly beaten during

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Speaker 1: the pandemic. From Manila Claiyo from Bloomberg News, that's it

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Speaker 1: for this episode of Stephanomics. Will be back next week,

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Speaker 1: but in the meantime, do please rate the show if

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Speaker 1: you like it, and check out the Bloomberg News website.

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Speaker 1: It's Bloomberg UK in the UK. For more economic news

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Speaker 1: and views on the global economy. You can also follow

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Speaker 1: at Economics on Twitter. This episode was produced by Magnus Hendrickson,

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Speaker 1: Samma Sadi and Young Young, with special thanks to Katya Dmitrieva,

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Speaker 1: Professor Nirie Woods, Claire Yeow, Certainly, you, Wet Watana, and

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Speaker 1: Michelle jim Risco. Mike Sasso is executive producer of Stephonomics

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Speaker 1: and the head of Bloomberg podcast is Francesco Levi m

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Speaker 1: h m m