Speaker 1: Bushkin. Okay, I'm just honestly opening my fridge. I've got
Speaker 1: a little thing of half and half. It's half full
Speaker 1: or half empty. There's another few days left in that
Speaker 1: very good. There's a bottle of wine in here. Oh,
Speaker 1: that's red wine. That's embarrassing. I've got vanilla mascapone cheese.
Speaker 1: I'll see if that's oh, oh, it's gone off. The stinks. Okay.
Speaker 1: Then I've got some beef short ribs that I have
Speaker 1: covered in aluminum foil that I mean to cook today.
Speaker 1: But I can kind of already feel myself like sliding
Speaker 1: out the door to go for dinner that was earlier
Speaker 1: in my kitchen, And now I'm here in the Solvable studios,
Speaker 1: and I'm wondering, is there anybody who can help me
Speaker 1: with this? I need a hero. If only one of
Speaker 1: the world's most innovative thinkers was dealing with what to
Speaker 1: do with rich people's food waste, I may have Higgins
Speaker 1: and you're listening to Solvable, Well, I think food waste
Speaker 1: is one of the lowest hanging fruit, and the great
Speaker 1: thing is that we can solve it by eating and
Speaker 1: enjoying food together instead of throwing it away and that's
Speaker 1: something that everyone can engage in in a way that
Speaker 1: saves money, reduces environmental impact, and can build companionship between humans.
Speaker 1: That is a vision that is not unattainable, and I
Speaker 1: find it very, very attractive. That's Tristram Stewart. He's an
Speaker 1: author and campaigner with a laser focus on the environmental
Speaker 1: and social impacts of food. You know, I actually heard
Speaker 1: of Tristram because a few years ago he put together
Speaker 1: this dinner for five thousand Londoners and meal was made
Speaker 1: entirely of food scrap that would have otherwise gone to waste.
Speaker 1: That's his solvable It's eliminating food waste. That's it. It
Speaker 1: may sound simple, but the problem is just gigantic. It's
Speaker 1: not just me. You know. Globally, we throw out about
Speaker 1: one point three billion tons of food a year. That's
Speaker 1: a third of all the food that we grow. Inequality
Speaker 1: plays a huge role in this. Of course. Very little
Speaker 1: food in poor countries is thrown out by consumers it's
Speaker 1: too precious. But in wealthy countries, especially here in the
Speaker 1: United States and in Canada, around forty percent of wasted
Speaker 1: food is thrown out by consumers. So what to do.
Speaker 1: The conversation you're about to hear, offers us guidance. Now
Speaker 1: you've already heard from three of our Solvable interviews so far,
Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, and Ann Applebaum. Now we meet
Speaker 1: the fourth. It's Ahmed Ali Akbar. You might know him
Speaker 1: from his own podcast, See Something, Say Something about what
Speaker 1: America Muslims are talking about right now, and we are
Speaker 1: thrilled to have him Unsolvable. To begin, Ahmed asks Tristram
Speaker 1: Stewart about smart ways to avoid waste, from saying yes
Speaker 1: to ugly bananas to making beer from our kids breadcrusts.
Speaker 1: And listen out too for big changes he's helping to
Speaker 1: make in the entrepreneurial world, as well as transforming food
Speaker 1: waste legislation in the UK. Okay, here we go. It's
Speaker 1: Tristram Stewart and Ahmed ali Akbar. Welcome to the program.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Solvable, Tristram, thanks very much for having me.
Speaker 1: So let's start really big. Global food waste is a
Speaker 1: massive problem. Do you think that it's a solvable problem. Yes.
Speaker 1: So the problem, of course is a food production itself,
Speaker 1: and a large amount of the food waste that is
Speaker 1: being generated can be designed out can be eliminated through
Speaker 1: behavior change, through improved business practice, through better government policy.
Speaker 1: Those things are eminently solvable. So myself, as a consumer
Speaker 1: who is concerned with reducing my impact, what can I
Speaker 1: do you know in that process from going to the
Speaker 1: supermarket to bring it harm? And I will stop you
Speaker 1: in your tracks and say, the first thing that you
Speaker 1: could probably do to help yourself avoid food wastes not
Speaker 1: go to the supermarket at all if you possibly can
Speaker 1: help it. Okay. The reason for that, and I'm not
Speaker 1: being entirely flippant here, is that the supermarket grocery supply
Speaker 1: system has waste and surplus as a cornerstone of its
Speaker 1: business model. It's almost impossible for a supermarket to avoid
Speaker 1: waste entirely. The entire marketing model of a supermarket is
Speaker 1: to create a cornucopian display of plenty. And the reason
Speaker 1: why they do that is because, having invested billions of
Speaker 1: dollars in working out what we Homo sapiens, this very
Speaker 1: sophisticated great ape will respond to. We have evolved over
Speaker 1: two million years in an environment of scarcity, and we
Speaker 1: are hardwired therefore, when we see abundance to take to hoard,
Speaker 1: to glut to feast, and that hardwiring comes very powerfully
Speaker 1: into action when we walk down those supermarket aisles, and
Speaker 1: the result is that we buy more than we need
Speaker 1: and we throw a third of it away. I think
Speaker 1: for most of us, what we see as food waste,
Speaker 1: we can't envision that like massive picture you've given us.
Speaker 1: We just see that, you know, those things being wasted
Speaker 1: at the supermarket, and then we bring home vegetables and
Speaker 1: they rite the milk rats. That's what happens with me,
Speaker 1: and then we throw it out. Can you talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about how you effectively made that behavioral change
Speaker 1: and sort of business change as well that made led
Speaker 1: to that reduction. Well to address some of the business changes.
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the issues that we highlight is
Speaker 1: the issue of ugly fruit and vegetables, and we immediately
Speaker 1: affected a change on the part of the supermarkets who
Speaker 1: started stocking cosmetically imperfect vegetables, partly because they had been
Speaker 1: hurt so badly by the press around the campaigning on
Speaker 1: this issue. And once they'd seen that there was public demand,
Speaker 1: of course they responded and started supplying to that demand.
Speaker 1: Instead of saying, oh, well, you know the reason why
Speaker 1: we have these cosmetic standards is because people expect perfection.
Speaker 1: By changing public attitudes, we changed corporate policy and that
Speaker 1: massively reduced food waste in those supermarket supply chains. And
Speaker 1: as I say, that started here in the United Kingdom,
Speaker 1: but it has become a global phenomenon now pretty much
Speaker 1: every Western supermarket chain has in some way dabbled in
Speaker 1: the issue of fruit and vegetables that are cosmetically imperfect
Speaker 1: and try to kind of sell those to customers. And
Speaker 1: they're basically being stoked alongside, you know, the sort of
Speaker 1: supermodel fruit that makes it out there most of the time,
Speaker 1: Like they're just are are they being labeled separately? Because
Speaker 1: I think part of the issue here is like how
Speaker 1: does the consumer know to invest in things that are
Speaker 1: less wasteful. Well, that's a very good question. Of course,
Speaker 1: every supermarket chain has a different brand and a different
Speaker 1: approach to this issue. So if you go to Well
Speaker 1: in the UK, we have a supermarket chain here called Waitros,
Speaker 1: some more upmarket chain for people who kind of care
Speaker 1: about where their food is from, and they're absolutely the
Speaker 1: weather blemished apples will have a story about how it
Speaker 1: hailed in the orchards in the autumn, and that's why
Speaker 1: this russeting on. You know, they'll have all of that narrative.
Speaker 1: You go to Tesco, which is a completely different more
Speaker 1: like the warm Heart of the UK. They don't tell
Speaker 1: that story to their customers. They just sell those wonky
Speaker 1: carrots cheaper than the cosmetically premium carrots, and that's what
Speaker 1: their demographic is most interested in. So you can be
Speaker 1: helping to reduce that food waste without even necessarily knowing
Speaker 1: it in that store. So I think everyone, and quite rightly,
Speaker 1: has got a different approach to solving the problem. What
Speaker 1: are some policies that you want to see the world's
Speaker 1: governments and corporations implement in order to reduce food waste
Speaker 1: at a noticeable level over the next sixty years or so.
Speaker 1: So let me start by saying most of my work
Speaker 1: has been directed at the people directly. What is it
Speaker 1: that we humans need to do to reform our food
Speaker 1: system and our system as a whole to ensure that
Speaker 1: this environmental and social calamity that we find ourselves in
Speaker 1: the midstaff does not reach its logical conclusion, namely that
Speaker 1: the mass species extinction event that we are causing very
Speaker 1: largely through our food system. How do we galvanize human
Speaker 1: action directly through behavior change, through organization, through entrepreneurship. We
Speaker 1: can do almost all of it without the intervention of governments.
Speaker 1: I believe that said governments clearly have a role to play,
Speaker 1: and there are a number of things that governments should
Speaker 1: be looking at. The one I will start with is
Speaker 1: farm subsidies. At the moment, the USA and Europe gather
Speaker 1: massive budgets through levying taxes on their populations for farm subsidies.
Speaker 1: That money is currently being grotesquely misspent to support a
Speaker 1: commodity industrial agricultural system to produce exactly the kinds of
Speaker 1: food that are both nutritionally less than optimal and are
Speaker 1: environmentally harmful. That is not a good use of public money,
Speaker 1: and the government of the USA and the governments of
Speaker 1: Europe should delink their subsidies from such poor public service
Speaker 1: and instead should be paying farmers to farm the land
Speaker 1: in a way that regenerates the soil, that creates habitat
Speaker 1: that enhances the land's ability to take on and store
Speaker 1: water in the water table at the same time as
Speaker 1: producing healthy, accessible food for everyone. What is the best
Speaker 1: way to actually make an impact such that subsidies aren't
Speaker 1: having such a massive effect on our environment. Well, but
Speaker 1: the answer to that question is exactly why I tend
Speaker 1: to start with the using of blemish bananas to make
Speaker 1: smoothies and pancakes and other nice things. Is something that
Speaker 1: you can do without getting too depressed, and that tastes
Speaker 1: good and is fun. And so starting with a nice,
Speaker 1: hearty meal using all the food that you have. Moving on,
Speaker 1: if you feel so moved to changing your buying practices
Speaker 1: and maybe having good conversations with your friends about looking
Speaker 1: to planet Earth by making our choice, Yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: much nicer, easier way to start. How do we change
Speaker 1: a farm subsidy system that is deeply entrenched in which
Speaker 1: some of the biggest food corporations in the world, the
Speaker 1: biggest corporations in the world, have an enormous stake when
Speaker 1: our political system, to take the US political system as
Speaker 1: a quintessential example, is itself stitched up by that financial system.
Speaker 1: You know, the strong correlation between successful electoral candidates and
Speaker 1: the money they have at their disposal to spend on
Speaker 1: their campaigns, which is an absolutely inexorable correlation in the USA.
Speaker 1: You ask me, how do you change that? Well, You've
Speaker 1: got to start there and delink the amount of money
Speaker 1: a candidate has from whether or lot they get elected,
Speaker 1: and then you might start having free and fair elections,
Speaker 1: and you might start getting people in public office who
Speaker 1: are not completely indebted to the corporations who benefit the
Speaker 1: financial subsidies that are being dulled out by those people
Speaker 1: when they get into government. Difficult to achieve. I mean, ultimately,
Speaker 1: that's where we've got to go. But you ask the question,
Speaker 1: I'm afraid that's where the answer is, right. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's part of why we're having this conversation is because
Speaker 1: it can feel so daunting. And I think also one
Speaker 1: thing that really interested me in you was that you
Speaker 1: also have some sort of entrepreneurial endeavors that you've gone
Speaker 1: into around bread that would otherwise be wasted. Can you
Speaker 1: tell me a little bit more about your company that
Speaker 1: deals with leftover bread? I will, and I'll take a
Speaker 1: step back there, since we just touched on some of
Speaker 1: the really deeply pressing and occasionally depressing need to create
Speaker 1: dramatic and swift change on planet Earth if we're to
Speaker 1: avert catastrophe, and say that most of my work is
Speaker 1: focused on mobilizing and inspiring people to act in a
Speaker 1: way that both sustains planet Earth but also sustains us
Speaker 1: and sustains us through companionship. This is a word I
Speaker 1: absolutely love companion. Literally it breaks down Latin Colm is
Speaker 1: with and pan is bread. A companion is somebody who
Speaker 1: share food with and Wow, isn't that beautiful. It's also
Speaker 1: the nature of food to bring people together. I think.
Speaker 1: I think that's so. It is universal what you say
Speaker 1: is right, the universal human practice of building community through
Speaker 1: sharing food in families, in localities, and indeed internationally. We
Speaker 1: build companionship and friendship through the sharing of food and
Speaker 1: this powerful way in which we can bond with each
Speaker 1: other and also bond with the earth from which all
Speaker 1: this food comes. That is why I have used food
Speaker 1: as the principal tool to communicate how we humans can
Speaker 1: and must change our system as a whole. One of
Speaker 1: the most recent ones, which you just alluded to, was
Speaker 1: the beer that became known and is known as toast Ale,
Speaker 1: which we are now producing in several different countries in
Speaker 1: the US and the UK and elsewhere. And that is
Speaker 1: made in a very in fact an ancient way of
Speaker 1: making beer, which is to use leftover bread and other
Speaker 1: grains to make your beer. That is what beer originally was,
Speaker 1: for preserving the calories in grains that might otherwise be wasted.
Speaker 1: And we essentially have brought the beer industry back to it.
Speaker 1: It's ancient Babylonian roots. And I discovered that you could
Speaker 1: make beer with waste bread in twenty fifteen when I
Speaker 1: was in Brussels with the Brussels Beer Project. The brewer
Speaker 1: there Sebastia showed me and I said, my goodness, I've
Speaker 1: been around the world and I've seen industrial quantities of
Speaker 1: bread being wasted in every country. It's one of the
Speaker 1: most wasted products of all and it's being wasted one
Speaker 1: it is still perfectly good. It's kind of sandwich crusts,
Speaker 1: you know, the end slices of the loaves being wasted
Speaker 1: by the hundreds of thousands everyday day fresh bread. So
Speaker 1: that's going on all the world. Meanwhile, craft brewing has
Speaker 1: become a global phenomenon, and I've spent the last twenty
Speaker 1: years building a global food waste movement. So let's bring
Speaker 1: these three things together into a global brand called toast Ale. Obviously,
Speaker 1: we're toasting the end of food waste. We think that
Speaker 1: bread shouldn't be wasted and neither should use. So we
Speaker 1: encourage people to drink responsibly. And so we've created this company. Sorry,
Speaker 1: now you got that's a pretty good, pretty good tagline.
Speaker 1: Oh crumbs, the puns are going to come flying now
Speaker 1: now we'll we'll move on. It is the best thing
Speaker 1: since slice bread. But the the idea is that we've
Speaker 1: made this company. We're producing beer. It's on sale. People
Speaker 1: absolutely love it. It's one Craft Beer Awards on blind
Speaker 1: taste testing. So this is a really high quality product,
Speaker 1: quite independently of the nice story that we have at
Speaker 1: our backs. But then rather uniquely, as a company, a
Speaker 1: for profit company, we give all of our profits. One
Speaker 1: hundred percent of our distributor profits go to the charity
Speaker 1: that I founded and have spent most of my last
Speaker 1: ten years working four and that is a charity that
Speaker 1: campaigns on reforming the food system in all the ways
Speaker 1: that we're now talking about. And in addition to that,
Speaker 1: we also share revenues with other aligned not in profits
Speaker 1: in any country that we go and work in. That's
Speaker 1: six or seven countries so far. Well, I'd say I
Speaker 1: can't wait to try it, But I don't drink alcohol,
Speaker 1: so sorry, but I think it's really interesting that I
Speaker 1: have some good news for you. I have just been
Speaker 1: handed our first bottle of a collaboration brew of low
Speaker 1: alcohol beer, which so you may yet get to try,
Speaker 1: and you definitely deserve to. With a pun like that.
Speaker 1: Are there any other items, you know waste by products,
Speaker 1: or you know things that like the end of a
Speaker 1: sandwich bread that you wish somebody else would toastify that
Speaker 1: you don't have time to address something that's like a
Speaker 1: slammed sort of potential product that you don't have the
Speaker 1: time to do. Oh my goodness. A very large part
Speaker 1: of the last twenty years of campaigning has having created
Speaker 1: a massive noise around food waste. Yes, I changed the
Speaker 1: policies of some big corporations, got laws passed by governments.
Speaker 1: But one of the most exciting parts of my work
Speaker 1: has been helping many entrepreneurs, dozens of entrepreneurs create businesses
Speaker 1: that mine that got gantuan mountain of food waste, the
Speaker 1: one point three billion tons of food that are wasted,
Speaker 1: and turn that food into good products that run good businesses.
Speaker 1: So in California, there's a brilliant company that called Imperfect Produce,
Speaker 1: and that is a vegetable box scheme that delivers discounted
Speaker 1: fresh fruit and vegetables two people's doors, and exactly the
Speaker 1: way I was describing, but all using wonky product products
Speaker 1: that would otherwise have been wasted. A fantastic company. Here
Speaker 1: in the United Kingdom, we have a company called Rubies
Speaker 1: in the Rubble that makes chutneys and jams entirely at
Speaker 1: fruit and vegetables that would otherwise be wasted. The company
Speaker 1: that makes juice called Rejuice in the UK Misfit Juicery
Speaker 1: over in the USA. I mean, I could go on
Speaker 1: all evening, but just suffice to say that the entrepreneurial
Speaker 1: spirit tackling food waste is one of the most exciting
Speaker 1: parts of this work. So, as somebody who thinks about
Speaker 1: this all the time, how do you keep positive that
Speaker 1: this enormous global problem of food waste is actually solvable
Speaker 1: in our generation? Well, I think food waste is one
Speaker 1: of the lowest hanging fruit and the great thing is
Speaker 1: that we can solve it by eating and enjoying food
Speaker 1: together instead of throwing it away. And that's something that
Speaker 1: everyone can engage in in a way that saves money,
Speaker 1: reduces environmental impact and as I said, can build companionship
Speaker 1: between humans, and it starts in our own refrigerators, and
Speaker 1: it moves on to the shopping aisles. And it's a
Speaker 1: very kind of reassuring thing that we can make the
Speaker 1: lives of our fellow humans better and that of the
Speaker 1: natural system that we depend on simply by ensuring that
Speaker 1: all the food we have is eaten. I think where
Speaker 1: it's rather more challenging when one looks at the global
Speaker 1: trend and sees that environmental damage, deforestation, and global warming
Speaker 1: and species extinction and not just still going in the
Speaker 1: wrong direction. In some cases, they're still accelerating in the
Speaker 1: wrong direction. And I think we have to face the reality,
Speaker 1: which is that the probability of us putting a stop
Speaker 1: to this mass species extinction event is really quite low.
Speaker 1: For me, that doesn't mean we sit down and get depressed.
Speaker 1: For me, that means that the less likely it is
Speaker 1: that we'll win, the more energy and the more people
Speaker 1: who have to get engaged and dedicate themselves to solving
Speaker 1: this problem. And I believe that alongside all the negative
Speaker 1: tipping points that we are facing in this world, we
Speaker 1: may also be on a tipping point socially towards the
Speaker 1: ultimate realizing that we are one species, we have one planet,
Speaker 1: and we must act as one instead of vying with
Speaker 1: each other, between different countries to have the biggest slice
Speaker 1: of the cake, and between different corporations to have a
Speaker 1: bigger slice of the cake. At some point, I believe
Speaker 1: we will tip into a kind of global consciousness and
Speaker 1: a global governance of sort where we say, actually, this
Speaker 1: is not in anyone's interest to undermine the viability of
Speaker 1: our living planet through this wasteful and destructive way in
Speaker 1: which we're producing food. I believe that is possible, and
Speaker 1: I believe that the benefit that will bring in terms
Speaker 1: of bringing great, accessible, nutritious food that helps to regenerate
Speaker 1: our land. That is a vision that is not unattainable,
Speaker 1: and I find it very very attractive. So trust him.
Speaker 1: If somebody is listening into this and feels like very
Speaker 1: motivated to reduce the impact, what are five things that
Speaker 1: they can do today? Buy less? That is the first
Speaker 1: thing that everyone can do. Buy less stuff. Number two,
Speaker 1: when you've bought food, just make sure every morsel is eaten.
Speaker 1: Think of the value in that food, and is sure
Speaker 1: that you squeeze every last bit out of that. Number
Speaker 1: Three make it fun. My motto is, if you want
Speaker 1: to change the world for a better party than the
Speaker 1: people destroying it, that's such a good motto. I want
Speaker 1: to steal that. Number four, change where you buy your food.
Speaker 1: There are businesses and farms producing food in a way
Speaker 1: that looks after the health of the planet and looks
Speaker 1: after your health. Those are where we need to gravitate
Speaker 1: and give our money to, and not the massive corporations
Speaker 1: that are stripping the earth. Bear. Yeah. Number five, eat
Speaker 1: more plants and less meat and dairy products. That is
Speaker 1: a very simple shift that we can all do to
Speaker 1: our own degree, and that will massively increase the efficiency
Speaker 1: and reduce the harm that we do through our food
Speaker 1: production system. Is there anything else that I didn't ask
Speaker 1: that you'd like to say? You can wash that food
Speaker 1: down with a can of toastale and thereby help to
Speaker 1: fund the great work of all the NGOs that are
Speaker 1: trying to solve this massive problem on behalf of us.
Speaker 1: All the realization that we are in an extinction event
Speaker 1: and humans may be on the way out, well, that's
Speaker 1: obviously dark and frightening, But as Tristram says, the smaller
Speaker 1: our odds of making it through, the more people who
Speaker 1: will join in the fight, so we better make it fun.
Speaker 1: When I think about how best to help instead of
Speaker 1: hurt the environment, it's often something I need to stop doing.
Speaker 1: Don't fly, don't eat meat, don't buy fast fashion, and
Speaker 1: that's all good. But what I love about Tristram's philosophy
Speaker 1: is that it's so positive. Use everything, enjoy it, Support
Speaker 1: farmers where you can. And obviously he's speaking to those
Speaker 1: of us who are lucky enough to even have a
Speaker 1: personal choice, people who have an abundance of snacks everywhere
Speaker 1: we look. In future episodes of Solvable, we're going to
Speaker 1: look at food waste in less fortunate parts of the world,
Speaker 1: where food is lost not because people don't like brown bananas,
Speaker 1: but because of poor infrastructure. The food spoils before it
Speaker 1: even reaches them. But there's a solvable for that too,
Speaker 1: so keep listening. Solvable is a collaboration between Pushkin Industries
Speaker 1: and the Rockefella Foundation, with production by Chalk and Blade.
Speaker 1: Pushkin's executive producer is Mia LaBelle. Engineering by Jason Gambrell
Speaker 1: and the fine folks at GSI Studios. Original music composed
Speaker 1: by Pascal Wise. Special thanks to Maggie Taylor, Heather Faine,
Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Carlie Migliori, Sheriff Vincent, Jacob Weisberg, and Malcolm Gladwell.
Speaker 1: You can learn more about solving Today's biggest problems at
Speaker 1: Rockefeller Foundation dot org slash solvable. I'm Mave Higgins, Now
Speaker 1: go solve it. Oh are you still here? I wanted
Speaker 1: to leave you with this little gem that we found
Speaker 1: from a French campaign called Inglorious Fruits and Vegetables. This
Speaker 1: is the ugly carrot. I want you to ask yourself
Speaker 1: what defines you? Is it your taste? Is it your texture?
Speaker 1: Is it what you're made of? Potassium, iron, calcium, Vitamin ABC?
Speaker 1: Even kay you have them all. You have everything that
Speaker 1: other fruits and vegetables have. You can be whatever you
Speaker 1: want to be, juice, soup, stew, you name it. Who
Speaker 1: says you're not eligible for supermarkets? Who? You got to
Speaker 1: stop believing in yourself otherwise nobody else will when you'll
Speaker 1: be lined up in boxes that supermarkets. I want you
Speaker 1: to stand upright and feel proud but what you are,
Speaker 1: because there's nothing wrong in being ugly.