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Speaker 1: Originals.

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Speaker 2: This is an iHeart original.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Our Little Job.

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Speaker 2: It's two thousand and nine and Ben Moehler, a ten

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Speaker 2: year old fifth grader from Arizona, should.

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Speaker 3: Be in school instead.

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Speaker 2: He's standing on a stage in Los Angeles. He's enclosed

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Speaker 2: in a prop the shape of a doughnut that's being

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Speaker 2: pulled to the rafters for a dramatic reveal. Behind him

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Speaker 2: is a giant seventy five foot screen. In front of

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Speaker 2: him are roughly three hundred audience members. His father is nearby,

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Speaker 2: and so are television cameras. Ben's vision isn't great and

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Speaker 2: things are a little blurry, but he can hear the host,

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Speaker 2: Kevin Pollack.

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Speaker 3: He's selling the shell right.

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Speaker 4: He's talking about how these are the hardest questions that

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Speaker 4: I've ever been put to television quiz, but these are

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Speaker 4: the smartest kids that we've ever brought, you know before.

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Speaker 2: Ben is taping a new game show on the Fox

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Speaker 2: Broadcasting network. It's called Our Little Genius. He's one of

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Speaker 2: several child prodigies who have been invited to test their

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Speaker 2: knowledge for a chance to win up to five hundred

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars. Ben's specialty is dinosaurs. He's prepared for this

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Speaker 2: for months. He knows as much as any ten year

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Speaker 2: old possibly could about palaeontology. If he does well, there's

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Speaker 2: the possibility he could earn enough money to pay for college.

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Speaker 2: He nails the first question, which consists of a multi

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Speaker 2: part answer, but when the next question comes, Ben is confused.

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Speaker 4: I can't really see it on the big screen, but

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Speaker 4: I can see it on my small screen. That's where

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Speaker 4: my emotion start to. Really I'm getting really confused, and

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Speaker 4: I'm getting really in my own head about like is

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Speaker 4: there another game being played on me that I didn't understand.

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Speaker 3: Until right now. Because something is not right here.

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Speaker 2: Something isn't right, And it's not because the question is

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Speaker 2: too difficult. It's the opposite. Moments before he walked onstage,

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Speaker 2: a member of the production team approached his father with

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Speaker 2: information about the game, information that Ben now realizes is

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Speaker 2: the answer to the question. Even at age ten, Ben

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Speaker 2: realizes that isn't supposed to happen on game shows. In fact,

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Speaker 2: it's a violation of federal law.

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Speaker 4: You would be able to see on my face just

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Speaker 4: confusion and concern, and on the tip of my tongue

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Speaker 4: in that moment was me wanting to say they told

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Speaker 4: me the answer to this off stage.

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Speaker 3: Something's not right here, but can they start over?

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Speaker 2: In a split second, Ben has to decide whether to

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Speaker 2: answer the question in a way that feels like cheating,

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Speaker 2: or tell a studio full of people that the quiz

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Speaker 2: show they're taping isn't on the level, that maybe these

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Speaker 2: child geniuses are getting a little extra help. While he's

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Speaker 2: still processing all that, the stage lights suddenly and mysteriously

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Speaker 2: go out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, something is afoot.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to very special episodes and I heart original podcast.

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Speaker 2: I'm your host Dana Schwartz, and this is Hemi Demi

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Speaker 2: semiquaver a modern quiz show scandal.

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Speaker 5: Welcome back to very special episodes. I'm Jason English, She's

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Speaker 5: Danas Swartz, He's Sarah Burnette. What any of you have

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Speaker 5: a stressful game show experience you want to share here?

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Speaker 2: I mean, Jason, I was on Jeopardy.

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Speaker 5: I don't want to drag gan ya. Are you kidding me?

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Speaker 2: I was on Jeopardy. It was not a great I

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Speaker 2: didn't do the best. It was not like a gold

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Speaker 2: medal situation for me. I'm not one to make excuses

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Speaker 2: in my defense. I was twelve weeks pregnant at the

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Speaker 2: time until I was just like housing saltine crackers backstage,

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Speaker 2: and so I was like nauseous and in a cold

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Speaker 2: sweat the whole time, But no one knew I was

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Speaker 2: pregnant because it was like, you know, it's like very early.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: But still it was not the best performance of my life.

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Speaker 2: But it was a dream come true just to be

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Speaker 2: on Jeopardy, but very scary, and at that moment I

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Speaker 2: realized I never wanted to be on television a or

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Speaker 2: maybe be perceived.

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Speaker 5: Ever again, you've done Jeopardy, Celebrity Jeopardy next, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Could kill Celebrity Jeopardy. Those questions are way easier.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 6: How was the button pushing? I've always wondered this is

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Speaker 6: it really hard?

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Speaker 2: Impossible? I mean, that's the real problem of Jeopardy. It's like,

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Speaker 2: even if you know the answers, it's just a game

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Speaker 2: of being able to push it faster than the other people.

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Speaker 2: It's very hard and very stressful.

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Speaker 6: Do they give you pointers. They're like, hey, you gotta

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Speaker 6: have real quick thumb strength and maybe like spend the

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Speaker 6: two weeks before the show practicing.

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Speaker 2: You do a practice round before, but I don't know

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Speaker 2: if you can prepare for it. It's just kind of like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, Maybe you can and I just didn't.

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Speaker 2: But I was just like, you know what, getting on

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Speaker 2: Jeopardy was the bucket list item. Now it's in the

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Speaker 2: universe's hands.

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Speaker 6: Oh yeah, you went up so high in my esteem.

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Speaker 5: I'm so jealous.

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Speaker 6: I've always wanted to be on Jeopardy.

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Speaker 5: Saron, have you ever been on any kind of game show?

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Speaker 6: No, I've never done a see I've never even been

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Speaker 6: on a game show set. And I've been on a

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Speaker 6: lot of TV sets and shows and stuff, but never

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Speaker 6: a game show. I don't know why. It's just like

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Speaker 6: the side show, like the midway of the County Fairgrounds

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Speaker 6: I never go to. So, yeah, what about you, Jason.

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Speaker 5: I've never been on a game show. But in I

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Speaker 5: think it was twenty eleven, I did go on the

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Speaker 5: Rachel Ray Show with my two year old daughter.

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Speaker 2: What how did I not know this?

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Speaker 5: And let Rachel Ray quiz her our presidential history? Oh

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Speaker 5: my god. After hearing Ben tell his story, I feel

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Speaker 5: like a terrible Paris and we can put a pin

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Speaker 5: in that. Just let Ben tell his story and get

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Speaker 5: into this. In the outro.

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Speaker 2: In the early two thousands. Unscripted television was popping up everywhere.

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Speaker 2: The contestants came cheap but earned huge ratings. Nearly twenty

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Speaker 2: nine million people watched the American Idol Finale in two

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Speaker 2: thousand and nine, featuring Adam Lambert and Chris Allen.

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Speaker 3: Of the four major.

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Speaker 2: Networks, Fox was always pushing the envelope for the next

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Speaker 2: unscripted sensation. There was Man Versus Beast, which pitted a

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Speaker 2: professional sprinter against a giraffe, and a professional eater against

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Speaker 2: a Kodiak bear and a hot dog eating contest. The

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Speaker 2: Moment of Truth, which strapped participants to a lie detector

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Speaker 2: and asked them in reacingly personal questions, and The Swan,

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Speaker 2: which crowned a winner based on who got the most

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Speaker 2: impressive plastic surgery. In this tsunami of tastelessness was a

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Speaker 2: relatively harmless entry, Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader?

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Speaker 2: Debuted in two thousand and seven and tasked adults with

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Speaker 2: questions called from grade school textbooks with assistance from kids.

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Speaker 2: It was successful enough that the network contemplated how they

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Speaker 2: could pursue the child prodigy genre. The answer was Our

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Speaker 2: Little Genius, which came from Super producer Mark Burnett of

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Speaker 2: Survivor fame, as well as Mike Darnell, Fox's in house

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Speaker 2: reality show Mastermind. Mike was responsible for the Giraffe Races, sure,

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Speaker 2: but also a lot of hits in reality TV terms,

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Speaker 2: this was like Scorsese teaming up with Tarantino. The premise

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Speaker 2: was simple. Take a kid between the ages of six

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Speaker 2: and twelve who had a knowledge specialty, their field of genius,

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Speaker 2: and ask them a series of multi part questions that

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Speaker 2: required between three and ten answers to complete. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: multiple choice, but if they got it right, they'd win cash.

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Speaker 2: The parents then decided whether their child should keep going

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Speaker 2: to win more cash or risk losing what they've already won.

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Speaker 2: A panel of experts in a given category could weigh

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Speaker 2: in on the kid's chances of success. If they navigated

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Speaker 2: all ten levels, they'd walk away with five hundred thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: The show's producers recruited from MENSA, from schools for gifted children,

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Speaker 2: and from the media, which loved to cover kids doing

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Speaker 2: extraordinary things. That's how they found Ben. Tw thousand and nine.

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Speaker 2: Ben was living in Gilbert, Arizona, happily immersed in paleontology,

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Speaker 2: passionate about it in a way that children often are.

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Speaker 2: His mother, Eke, was a teacher. His father, Sherman, had

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Speaker 2: a few different careers, including one as an electrical engineer.

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Speaker 2: They were all too happy to encourage and nourish his fascination.

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Speaker 4: So when his younger son came along and he's like,

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Speaker 4: I want to do paleontology. As a parent, you want

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Speaker 4: to encourage your kids. But he just didn't know, like,

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Speaker 4: how do I actually do that? So he sought out

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Speaker 4: experts to ask, and in this case, down here in

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Speaker 4: Tucson is the world's largest Gemen mineral show.

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Speaker 2: Arizona is a good place for dinosaur lovers. The Southwest

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Speaker 2: is home to lots of fossils. Ben's father made the

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Speaker 2: right contacts to facilitate Ben's education.

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Speaker 3: He even got permission.

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Speaker 2: For Ben to go on a fossil excavation where he

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Speaker 2: looked on in amazement at an actual stegosaurus tooth.

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Speaker 4: Teeth of Stegosaurus are quite rare, so that was one

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Speaker 4: of those times when everyone puts their tools down and

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Speaker 4: we all gather around to look at it.

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Speaker 2: Ben's knowledge of dinosaurs earned him other opportunities like volunteering

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Speaker 2: at a museum in Mesa to answer questions about everything

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Speaker 2: from fossils to the theory of evolution.

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Speaker 4: And it was basically my responsibility to stand there and

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Speaker 4: answered people's questions as they came. By the way that

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Speaker 4: the exhibit was laid out, people would kind of turn

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Speaker 4: a corner and sometimes they would see the Therizinosaurus looming

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Speaker 4: over them, and they just scream and run away. But

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Speaker 4: those who are brave enough to actually go into the

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Speaker 4: side gallery would see an eight year old standing there.

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Speaker 2: He also got some media attention, including on the local

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Speaker 2: news and a write up in a magazine, though he

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Speaker 2: can't be certain that's likely where the producers of Our

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Speaker 2: Little Genius discovered him, least a phone call to his

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Speaker 2: parents and explain the premise of the show. Ben knew

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Speaker 2: something was up when his father picked him up from

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Speaker 2: school one day rather than let him take the bus.

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Speaker 2: Maybe Ben thought another family cat had died. Instead, his

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Speaker 2: father told him a quiz show was looking to have

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Speaker 2: him on.

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Speaker 4: Like, I was not pressured into doing this in any way.

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Speaker 4: He would have been perfectly happy, I think telling him no,

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Speaker 4: thank you, but again because all the other times I

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Speaker 4: had been on, you know, interacting with media had been

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Speaker 4: no big deal.

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Speaker 2: The opportunity to win five hundred thousand dollars was significant.

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Speaker 2: It could cover not only his education but his brothers.

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Speaker 2: And while his family wasn't in financial trouble, Ben had

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Speaker 2: a loose concept of the greater financial crisis hitting the

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Speaker 2: middle class. In Ben's mind, that might impact his ability

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Speaker 2: to attend college.

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Speaker 4: I mean, again, this is two thousand and nine. I'm

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Speaker 4: ten years old, but the recession is happening. And when

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Speaker 4: I came home from school, I would be watching on

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Speaker 4: the nightly news everything about the stock market crashing.

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Speaker 3: And I know that in order.

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Speaker 4: To succeed at the career that I wanted, I needed

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Speaker 4: to go to college. College costs a lot of money,

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Speaker 4: and here was an opportunity for me to potentially earn

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Speaker 4: my way using.

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Speaker 3: The knowledge that I already had.

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Speaker 4: So to me, it seemed like, I mean, why not,

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Speaker 4: you know, what's the worst that could happen?

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Speaker 2: But Ben's parents weren't stage parents. They didn't place any

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Speaker 2: pressure on him.

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Speaker 4: They basically encouraged me to like, look the third question,

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Speaker 4: the ten thousand dollars safety net question. Make that the

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Speaker 4: goal as long as you can answer the first three

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Speaker 4: questions in a row. You walk away with at least

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Speaker 4: ten thousand dollars and that'll still help with tuition. That'll

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Speaker 4: still put you ahead of where you would have been.

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Speaker 4: So just focus on that. Everything after that can be

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Speaker 4: a bonus. Yeah, just focus on getting those first three

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Speaker 4: questions correct.

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Speaker 2: The taping of Our Little Genius was set for December

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Speaker 2: two thousand and nine. That gave Ben a few months

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Speaker 2: to cram as much information into his brain as he

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Speaker 2: possibly could. He soaked up details of fossil discoveries of

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Speaker 2: genus and species, sizes and characteristics, and the producers also

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Speaker 2: said they wanted generic paleontology rather than limiting it to

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Speaker 2: just dinosaurs, which added whole new subjects to cran.

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Speaker 4: When my dad would take time off to go and

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Speaker 4: study with me, he would it was stuff like, you know,

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Speaker 4: printing off web pages with list of questions about fixtinct

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Speaker 4: animals just so that we understood like what the potential

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Speaker 4: questions could be.

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Speaker 2: But here's the issue with dinosaur trivia. It's not like

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Speaker 2: math or history where things can be cut and dry.

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Speaker 4: There was a lot of like, well, this source says,

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Speaker 4: this answer, this sources this answer, well, this answer, this

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Speaker 4: source is newer, so this may be based on more

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Speaker 4: up to date information. You know, this source looks more

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Speaker 4: trustworthy than the other one, so again it's not quite

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Speaker 4: as unambiguous about what the answers to some of these

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Speaker 4: questions could be.

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Speaker 2: Ben also did mock appearances for producers, answering questions over

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Speaker 2: the phone and sometimes in front of a camcorder at

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Speaker 2: his house.

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Speaker 3: A few of them were recorded.

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Speaker 4: They had us set up a camcorder and a tripod

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Speaker 4: because they wanted to ask me questions over the phone

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Speaker 4: and verify that, you know, I wasn't looking at a

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Speaker 4: sheet of paper to answer it, or that someone else

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Speaker 4: wasn't like, you know, whispering in my ear. There were

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Speaker 4: a few interviews we did where it's it's us in

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Speaker 4: the family, sitting down in front of the camera and

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Speaker 4: they're asking me questions and I'm answering them.

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Speaker 2: Ben thinks he got about seventy percent of the questions

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Speaker 2: during the practice rounds correct.

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Speaker 4: That was the one about in the test rounds, I

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Speaker 4: had been asked named the three carnivorous dinosaurs larger than

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Speaker 4: Torontosaurus rex.

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Speaker 2: Unbeknownst to Ben, this would be important later. For now,

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Speaker 2: Ben's parents signed a release, and Ben also signed a

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Speaker 2: contract at ten in this the state of California. It's

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Speaker 2: a binding contract if it's been reviewed and approved by

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Speaker 2: a court.

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Speaker 4: So it says I understand that as a contestant on

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Speaker 4: the series, I may be subjected to severe mental stress, embarrassment, shock, surprise,

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Speaker 4: or other unfortunate emotions in response to the events, stunts,

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Speaker 4: and or challenges on the series.

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Speaker 3: In addition, I understand that as a contestant on.

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Speaker 4: The series, I may reveal and or relate, and other

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Speaker 4: parties may reveal and or relate information about me that

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Speaker 4: is of a personal, private, or embarrassing or unfavorable nature,

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Speaker 4: which information may be factual and or fictional, So you

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Speaker 4: may be embarrassed, and it may or may not even

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Speaker 4: be factual.

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Speaker 2: The contract also made a point of the seriousness of

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Speaker 2: trying to cheat.

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Speaker 7: I am aware that it is a federal offense punishable

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Speaker 7: by fine and or imprisonment for anyone to do anything

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Speaker 7: which would rig or in any way influence the outcome

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Speaker 7: of the series with the intent to deceive the viewing public,

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Speaker 7: and that it is a federal offense to offer or

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Speaker 7: to accept any information or secret assistance in connection with

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Speaker 7: the series. I agreed that I will not participate in

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Speaker 7: any such act or any other deceptive or dishonest act

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Speaker 7: with respect to the series. If anyone tries to induce

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Speaker 7: me to do any such act, I must immediately notify

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Speaker 7: the producer.

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Speaker 2: Ben scribbled his initials next to the passage, and soon

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Speaker 2: it was time to head to California, where Our Little

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Speaker 2: Genius was taped at Los Angeles Center Studios and one

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Speaker 2: of their massive eighteen thousand square foot sound stages. Ben

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Speaker 2: and his father arrived there in December two thousand and nine.

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Speaker 4: I remember waking up that morning when it was still

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Speaker 4: dark out, and it's just one of those days where

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Speaker 4: you're like wide awake the sucond. You wake up and

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Speaker 4: it's like, well, today's day. Start going through the facts

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Speaker 4: in your mind because today's the day. You know this

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Speaker 4: could who knows this could change everything?

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Speaker 2: It would change everything. And it all started with a

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Speaker 2: curious conversation backs age. When Ben and his family arrived

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Speaker 2: for the taping of Our Little Genius, the studio was

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Speaker 2: slowly filling up with audience members and a bustling crew,

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Speaker 2: including host Kevin Pollock. Ben doesn't remember interacting much with

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Speaker 2: Kevin or with any of the other kid contestants. He

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Speaker 2: does remember someone on the show, an adult, asking a

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Speaker 2: weird question.

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Speaker 4: He was trying to strike up a conversation to me about, like,

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Speaker 4: well do you like do you like coffee? And I'm like, no,

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Speaker 4: I'm ten, I don't like coffee.

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Speaker 2: But he did notice something peculiar. While the kids were

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Speaker 2: on stage, they were asked to pretend to have gotten

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Speaker 2: an answer wrong and to look slightly dejected.

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Speaker 4: So that you know, in the case that there's an

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Speaker 4: emotional meltdown, they've got footage that like doesn't involve a

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Speaker 4: small child like complete breaking down, Right, They've got a

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Speaker 4: more controlled, faked rehearsed ending that they can go to.

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Speaker 2: As Ben later found out, they wanted the option of

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Speaker 2: using a reaction that would be less disturbing for viewers.

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Speaker 2: As this is going on, Ben is getting a microphone

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Speaker 2: threaded through his clothing, a red button up shirt and slacks. Then,

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Speaker 2: shortly before Ben went on, someone involved in the production

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Speaker 2: told his father something. It was information about dinosauria, the

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Speaker 2: umbrella term for two distinct groups of dinotes, the lizard

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Speaker 2: hipped and the bird hipped.

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Speaker 4: They had already asked me questions about that I already

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Speaker 4: knew all that, and what this producer wanted to make

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Speaker 4: sure my dad made sure that I knew was that

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Speaker 4: this had happened in eighteen eighty eight, This official division

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Speaker 4: of dinosaur had happened in the year eighteen eighty eight,

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Speaker 4: and that it was the researcher Harry Seely that had

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Speaker 4: made that distinction.

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Speaker 2: To put this into some context for the non paleontologists listening,

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Speaker 2: this is not what would be considered common information to

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Speaker 2: have in all of Ben's preparation. He hadn't been expecting

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Speaker 2: to feel these types of questions.

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Speaker 4: But in all these questions they had been asking me

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Speaker 4: about dinosaurs, it was about dinosaurs and not about like

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Speaker 4: the history and development of paleontology as a field all

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Speaker 4: that much.

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Speaker 3: There's a few key names and dates that would come up.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, knowing Harry Seely eighteen eighty eight off the

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Speaker 4: top of your head, I mean even today as a paleontologist,

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Speaker 4: is like, not something that's useful to know, right.

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Speaker 2: Sherman later told Ben he wasn't sure what to do

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Speaker 2: with the information he'd been given, that maybe it would

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Speaker 2: simply be a matter of knowing Harry Seely in case

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Speaker 2: he was mentioned during the show. It didn't seem wrong,

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Speaker 2: not right away.

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Speaker 4: Then, and he's like, I'm it was implied to me that,

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Speaker 4: like this is important contextual information for someone who might

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Speaker 4: be on your expert panel, Like this person might be

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Speaker 4: a descendant of Harry Seely or might be a scholar

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Speaker 4: in Harry Seely's work.

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Speaker 3: And like you might look stupid if you don't know

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Speaker 3: who that is.

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Speaker 2: Each kid competed one at a time. Finally, it was

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Speaker 2: Ben's turn on stage. He stood inside of a giant

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Speaker 2: illuminated ring that slowly rose to the ceiling. A panel

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Speaker 2: of expert stood at the ready to advise a Ben's

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Speaker 2: father if he needed guidance on whether Ben could answer

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Speaker 2: the question.

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Speaker 3: We're going to consult the experts on.

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Speaker 4: The experts are going to get to see the question,

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Speaker 4: and then they talk amongst themselves and decide, like, okay,

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Speaker 4: does it could a ten year old realistically get this

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Speaker 4: question right? And so they can advise the parents like

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Speaker 4: either go for it, try for that five hundred thousand dollars,

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Speaker 4: or like don't risk it.

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Speaker 3: If you cash out now, you'll keep you know whatever.

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Speaker 4: The previous tier was above one hundred thousand, so they

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Speaker 4: were there kind of as the lifeline, but like realistically,

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Speaker 4: in the function of entertainment property, they're there to make

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Speaker 4: faces at the camera, and that in a situation I'm

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Speaker 4: sure they were hoping for would be the experts say, like, no,

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Speaker 4: I don't think a ten year old can answer this.

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Speaker 2: The first round of questions began. Ben was asked to

380
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Speaker 2: name the major geological periods of Earth's history in order.

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Speaker 4: You start with the Cambrian Ordavision, Silurian, Devonian, Carboniferous, Permian, Triassic, Jurassic, Cretaceous, Paleogene, Neogene, Quaternary.

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Speaker 4: The Carboniferous is a period of time in other parts

383
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Speaker 4: of the world that they or actually they do it

384
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Speaker 4: here in the US too. It's subdivided into different sub periods.

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Speaker 4: Some consider them full period some consider them sub periods,

386
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Speaker 4: and they're named after places where these major exposures are.

387
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Speaker 2: Technically there was more than one correct.

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Speaker 4: Answer, So the lower one is called the Mississippian period,

389
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Speaker 4: and the upper one is called the Pennsylvanian period. So

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Speaker 4: the twelve part answer that I gave, which is the

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Speaker 4: one that they accepted, has just carboniferous.

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Speaker 2: There was a beat, and then Kevin Pollock announced Ben

393
00:22:10,882 --> 00:22:14,402
Speaker 2: had gotten all the answers right for the first prize

394
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Speaker 2: of one thousand dollars. The ice had been broken. Ben

395
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Speaker 2: could do this stand in front of a bunch of strangers,

396
00:22:22,522 --> 00:22:28,762
Speaker 2: under hot studio lights and under pressure recall arcane information. Hey,

397
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Speaker 2: it was about dinosaurs.

398
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Speaker 3: Like I know, I had a different interest set.

399
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Speaker 4: You know a lot of kids my age were in

400
00:22:36,042 --> 00:22:39,682
Speaker 4: a Pokemon and they made them memorize hundreds of those suckers, right,

401
00:22:39,762 --> 00:22:41,882
Speaker 4: so me knowing twelve things in a row is like

402
00:22:42,002 --> 00:22:43,002
Speaker 4: not a big deal.

403
00:22:43,962 --> 00:22:47,802
Speaker 2: The second round of questions came. This time they were

404
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Speaker 2: worth five thousand dollars.

405
00:22:50,522 --> 00:22:53,282
Speaker 4: Right, So the question they ask is, you know what

406
00:22:54,042 --> 00:22:56,962
Speaker 4: two major groups are the clay DINOSAURA broken down into

407
00:22:57,002 --> 00:22:59,002
Speaker 4: and again this is all paraphrasing. I don't remember the

408
00:22:59,042 --> 00:23:02,682
Speaker 4: exact like language here, but what they're asking is what

409
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Speaker 4: are the two major groups of dinosaurs?

410
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Speaker 3: Who named them? And what year did he name them?

411
00:23:07,522 --> 00:23:12,762
Speaker 2: Something wasn't right. The answer was Harry Seely and eighteen

412
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Speaker 2: eighty eight, the same name and year his father had

413
00:23:17,002 --> 00:23:23,722
Speaker 2: been fed. Just before Ben walked onstage, Ben deliberated answering

414
00:23:23,922 --> 00:23:28,042
Speaker 2: was worth a lot of money, college money. But wasn't

415
00:23:28,082 --> 00:23:29,562
Speaker 2: this cheating and.

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Speaker 4: Of course I already knew the names of the groups,

417
00:23:31,882 --> 00:23:34,762
Speaker 4: but I would not have known, Harry Seely eighteen eighty eight.

418
00:23:35,242 --> 00:23:37,602
Speaker 4: Had they not used my father to give that information,

419
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Speaker 4: had they not tricked him into thinking that this was

420
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Speaker 4: about one of the experts, I would not have known that.

421
00:23:44,362 --> 00:23:47,882
Speaker 2: Ben was also thinking of that contract. Was it too

422
00:23:48,002 --> 00:23:52,042
Speaker 2: late to disclose? Someone had fed him answers? Had he

423
00:23:52,122 --> 00:23:53,122
Speaker 2: done something wrong?

424
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Speaker 4: My impression was like, all right, I promised not to

425
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Speaker 4: embarrass the production team, and that like, whatever I say,

426
00:24:00,482 --> 00:24:02,842
Speaker 4: they can do whatever they want with it, and it

427
00:24:02,962 --> 00:24:06,082
Speaker 4: might be a huge mistake right to say the truth.

428
00:24:06,682 --> 00:24:10,602
Speaker 2: The other problem was that our little genius didn't appear

429
00:24:10,682 --> 00:24:14,962
Speaker 2: to have a contestant advocate on set, someone a child

430
00:24:15,002 --> 00:24:18,482
Speaker 2: could turn to who wasn't directly part of the production.

431
00:24:19,242 --> 00:24:23,962
Speaker 2: Child actors have those protections, child geniuses do not.

432
00:24:24,722 --> 00:24:29,522
Speaker 4: Again, there was no representative on stage of a neutral

433
00:24:29,642 --> 00:24:33,162
Speaker 4: third party. For a production that is done ethically and

434
00:24:33,202 --> 00:24:35,642
Speaker 4: with safety in mind, you know, you should have a

435
00:24:35,682 --> 00:24:38,522
Speaker 4: third party who does not have a stake in the game,

436
00:24:38,682 --> 00:24:41,842
Speaker 4: who is present as a resource for the child. You know,

437
00:24:41,882 --> 00:24:43,802
Speaker 4: who is not from the production team and is not

438
00:24:43,842 --> 00:24:45,402
Speaker 4: one of the parents.

439
00:24:45,682 --> 00:24:50,762
Speaker 2: Ben answered Harry seey and eighteen eighty eight, and again

440
00:24:50,962 --> 00:24:54,602
Speaker 2: Kevin Pollack told him he was correct, but the relief

441
00:24:54,682 --> 00:24:58,122
Speaker 2: he had felt after the first set of questions was

442
00:24:58,202 --> 00:25:02,962
Speaker 2: replaced by confusion. This wasn't how game shows were supposed

443
00:25:03,002 --> 00:25:05,522
Speaker 2: to work. You had to come up with an answer

444
00:25:05,562 --> 00:25:08,682
Speaker 2: on your own, not parrot what had been told to you.

445
00:25:09,362 --> 00:25:12,962
Speaker 2: Kevin Pollack delivered the third round of questions, which were

446
00:25:13,002 --> 00:25:17,562
Speaker 2: worth ten thousand dollars. This time the problem was something

447
00:25:17,842 --> 00:25:20,682
Speaker 2: very much like the one he had answered during his

448
00:25:20,842 --> 00:25:23,882
Speaker 2: test runs at home, when he had been asked to

449
00:25:23,962 --> 00:25:27,642
Speaker 2: name three carnivorous dinosaurs larger than.

450
00:25:27,522 --> 00:25:30,602
Speaker 4: The t rex, and then in the actual taping, they

451
00:25:30,642 --> 00:25:34,362
Speaker 4: asked me first name the largest dinosaur ever known, and

452
00:25:34,402 --> 00:25:37,202
Speaker 4: then named the four carnivors dinosaurs larger than t rex.

453
00:25:37,602 --> 00:25:43,722
Speaker 2: One question, five answers. To Ben, it was convoluted and confusing.

454
00:25:44,362 --> 00:25:48,282
Speaker 2: He had demonstrated knowledge of three during the sample game.

455
00:25:48,882 --> 00:25:52,922
Speaker 2: Now there were four, plus a bonus answer, the largest

456
00:25:53,122 --> 00:25:59,402
Speaker 2: dinosaur ever discovered. Ben knew the answer they were looking for, Argentinosaurus,

457
00:26:00,082 --> 00:26:03,562
Speaker 2: But this time the issue wasn't being fed the complete answer.

458
00:26:04,082 --> 00:26:06,882
Speaker 2: It was that Ben felt there was more than one

459
00:26:07,082 --> 00:26:11,442
Speaker 2: correct answer, or no way of knowing the right answer.

460
00:26:11,482 --> 00:26:13,562
Speaker 4: And so what they were looking for Here again we're

461
00:26:13,562 --> 00:26:16,842
Speaker 4: talking about biggest. That can mean a lot of different things.

462
00:26:16,882 --> 00:26:19,162
Speaker 4: It can mean the longest, it can mean the tallest

463
00:26:19,242 --> 00:26:23,322
Speaker 4: at the hip. Because dinosaurs in their natural posture the

464
00:26:23,362 --> 00:26:27,482
Speaker 4: two legged bipedal dinosaurs, so all the carnivores are going

465
00:26:27,522 --> 00:26:30,282
Speaker 4: to be basically their body is parallel to the ground,

466
00:26:30,322 --> 00:26:33,122
Speaker 4: so their highest point is not like the head the

467
00:26:33,162 --> 00:26:35,482
Speaker 4: way that humans stand. It's the hip is usually the

468
00:26:35,562 --> 00:26:38,482
Speaker 4: highest point. So if you're looking for tallest, it's usually

469
00:26:38,522 --> 00:26:42,402
Speaker 4: measured like at the hip. There's weight, and I think

470
00:26:42,402 --> 00:26:45,922
Speaker 4: it's pretty intuitive to understand that it's difficult to estimate

471
00:26:46,002 --> 00:26:48,602
Speaker 4: how much an animal would have weighed when we only

472
00:26:48,602 --> 00:26:49,402
Speaker 4: have a skeleton.

473
00:26:49,882 --> 00:26:53,362
Speaker 2: The problem was also that some species didn't necessarily have

474
00:26:53,482 --> 00:26:58,242
Speaker 2: complete skeletons at the time, making an objective measurement difficult.

475
00:26:58,802 --> 00:27:00,762
Speaker 2: Ben gave the best answer he could.

476
00:27:01,122 --> 00:27:02,362
Speaker 3: What if it's forty three feet.

477
00:27:02,602 --> 00:27:06,082
Speaker 4: You know you're hinging, literally wagering ten thousand dollars on

478
00:27:06,162 --> 00:27:08,802
Speaker 4: this question. You know, even the answer that I gave,

479
00:27:08,962 --> 00:27:13,882
Speaker 4: which is Spinosaurus, carcard Antosaurus, and Giganotosaurus. Even at that

480
00:27:13,962 --> 00:27:16,962
Speaker 4: time you could have argued we don't actually know that

481
00:27:17,162 --> 00:27:19,722
Speaker 4: the one or two specimens of these animals we have

482
00:27:19,962 --> 00:27:22,522
Speaker 4: are larger than the largest t Rex.

483
00:27:23,842 --> 00:27:27,042
Speaker 2: But he couldn't think of a fourth. Under pressure, he

484
00:27:27,162 --> 00:27:31,242
Speaker 2: answered Suka Mimas. The show was looking for Tyranno Titan,

485
00:27:31,802 --> 00:27:36,362
Speaker 2: which was at the time not conclusively proven to be

486
00:27:36,522 --> 00:27:39,882
Speaker 2: larger than t Rex. While it did appear in some

487
00:27:40,002 --> 00:27:44,802
Speaker 2: reference material, there was no consensus about its average size.

488
00:27:45,602 --> 00:27:50,082
Speaker 2: This time, Kevin Pollock didn't have good news. The answer

489
00:27:50,242 --> 00:27:55,282
Speaker 2: had been judged to be incorrect, and then suddenly there

490
00:27:55,442 --> 00:27:57,282
Speaker 2: was a production issue.

491
00:27:57,602 --> 00:28:00,842
Speaker 4: When I gave the answer Suka Mimas spelled incorrectly pops

492
00:28:00,922 --> 00:28:04,042
Speaker 4: up on the screen, and then they cut the lights

493
00:28:04,402 --> 00:28:06,522
Speaker 4: and they pretend that there's a power outage.

494
00:28:07,002 --> 00:28:10,642
Speaker 2: Ben was led off stage and into a room. When

495
00:28:10,642 --> 00:28:14,802
Speaker 2: they came back on, Kevin Pollack had an announcement Ben

496
00:28:14,842 --> 00:28:17,402
Speaker 2: could try again in what amounted to.

497
00:28:17,602 --> 00:28:18,322
Speaker 5: A do over.

498
00:28:18,922 --> 00:28:22,082
Speaker 4: And here in that side room is where I learned

499
00:28:22,082 --> 00:28:24,922
Speaker 4: that we could have another go. I didn't know until

500
00:28:24,922 --> 00:28:27,722
Speaker 4: that point that they would let me try again again.

501
00:28:28,002 --> 00:28:31,762
Speaker 2: Ben made it to the third set of questions. Kevin

502
00:28:31,802 --> 00:28:35,962
Speaker 2: Pollack wanted to know what family smilod On belongs to.

503
00:28:36,482 --> 00:28:38,402
Speaker 4: Of course, I know what Smilodon is. I know that

504
00:28:38,442 --> 00:28:41,242
Speaker 4: it's a cat. So the guest that I make is like,

505
00:28:42,482 --> 00:28:46,082
Speaker 4: I don't know. Felis I think is verbatim what I said.

506
00:28:46,282 --> 00:28:49,562
Speaker 4: Felis is the genus name for the domestic cat, and

507
00:28:49,602 --> 00:28:53,202
Speaker 4: it's quite close to Philiday, right, Felis Pheladay. But that's

508
00:28:53,242 --> 00:28:56,362
Speaker 4: not the answer they were looking for. So I end up.

509
00:28:56,602 --> 00:28:58,202
Speaker 4: You know, at that point, they're just like, all right,

510
00:28:58,242 --> 00:28:58,802
Speaker 4: you're done.

511
00:28:59,242 --> 00:29:02,602
Speaker 2: As he walked off the stage, a confusing series of

512
00:29:02,642 --> 00:29:06,482
Speaker 2: emotions began to grip him. One of the worst feelings

513
00:29:06,562 --> 00:29:09,602
Speaker 2: was that he had let his older brother down, that

514
00:29:09,642 --> 00:29:13,122
Speaker 2: he could have potentially paid for his college if the

515
00:29:13,162 --> 00:29:17,882
Speaker 2: game hadn't been a mess of leaked information and ambiguous questions.

516
00:29:18,242 --> 00:29:20,682
Speaker 4: He didn't know that at the time, and I'm really

517
00:29:20,682 --> 00:29:22,482
Speaker 4: glad that he didn't know that He was there when

518
00:29:22,522 --> 00:29:24,482
Speaker 4: we filmed. You know, he was there in the audience

519
00:29:24,482 --> 00:29:26,162
Speaker 4: when we filmed the show, and so he saw me

520
00:29:26,362 --> 00:29:28,762
Speaker 4: like bomb on stage, and so I'm really glad that

521
00:29:28,842 --> 00:29:31,162
Speaker 4: he didn't know at the time, like I was trying

522
00:29:31,202 --> 00:29:33,362
Speaker 4: to get money for both of us, because that would

523
00:29:33,402 --> 00:29:35,402
Speaker 4: have made me feel a lot worse if, like I

524
00:29:35,442 --> 00:29:37,562
Speaker 4: had promised that to him.

525
00:29:37,882 --> 00:29:41,802
Speaker 2: At the taping, Ben was routed to a child psychologist

526
00:29:42,082 --> 00:29:44,602
Speaker 2: who asked some perfunctory questions.

527
00:29:45,122 --> 00:29:47,202
Speaker 4: At least that's what she identified herself as. And she

528
00:29:47,282 --> 00:29:49,122
Speaker 4: basically looks at me and she goes, yeah, he looks

529
00:29:49,122 --> 00:29:49,682
Speaker 4: pretty sad.

530
00:29:50,162 --> 00:29:52,802
Speaker 2: He and his family were then ushered into an suv

531
00:29:53,042 --> 00:29:54,762
Speaker 2: and driven back to their hotel.

532
00:29:55,122 --> 00:29:57,922
Speaker 4: We get back into the SUVs and we go back

533
00:29:57,962 --> 00:30:03,002
Speaker 4: to the hotel, and I am given a couple of

534
00:30:03,042 --> 00:30:06,242
Speaker 4: hours to myself in the hotel room to kind of

535
00:30:06,242 --> 00:30:07,682
Speaker 4: come to terms of the th that I blew it.

536
00:30:08,482 --> 00:30:12,642
Speaker 2: Heading home, the reality was sinking in. He had failed

537
00:30:12,802 --> 00:30:16,842
Speaker 2: to advance, a failure his ten year old self thought

538
00:30:17,002 --> 00:30:23,202
Speaker 2: might endanger his chances of pursuing his passion paleontology without

539
00:30:23,322 --> 00:30:27,562
Speaker 2: prize money, where would money from college come from. Later

540
00:30:27,762 --> 00:30:32,922
Speaker 2: Ben was affected by another realization. He had effectively cheated,

541
00:30:33,522 --> 00:30:37,642
Speaker 2: not with any premeditation, not because he wanted an advantage,

542
00:30:37,962 --> 00:30:41,162
Speaker 2: but because he had been put in an impossible position.

543
00:30:42,082 --> 00:30:45,562
Speaker 2: The question was what was anyone going to do about it?

544
00:30:46,122 --> 00:31:01,402
Speaker 2: And what happened with the other kids. The original quiz

545
00:31:01,402 --> 00:31:06,202
Speaker 2: show scandal was in November of nineteen fifty six, when

546
00:31:06,202 --> 00:31:09,962
Speaker 2: a handsome man named Charles Van Doren stepped down to

547
00:31:10,042 --> 00:31:14,802
Speaker 2: the set of twenty one. An English instructor at Columbia University,

548
00:31:15,282 --> 00:31:18,162
Speaker 2: Van Doren had been invited to the show at the

549
00:31:18,202 --> 00:31:23,362
Speaker 2: behest of producer Albert Friedman. For the next fourteen weeks,

550
00:31:23,762 --> 00:31:28,162
Speaker 2: van Doren listened intently to questions, his brow furrowed in

551
00:31:28,282 --> 00:31:33,202
Speaker 2: deep concentration. Then he'd emerge with the right answer, enough

552
00:31:33,242 --> 00:31:37,642
Speaker 2: of them to dethrone the show's reigning champion, a comparatively

553
00:31:37,842 --> 00:31:43,842
Speaker 2: nerdy player named Herbert Stemple. Van Dorn became a national celebrity.

554
00:31:44,362 --> 00:31:48,042
Speaker 2: He won one hundred and twenty nine thousand dollars or

555
00:31:48,082 --> 00:31:51,922
Speaker 2: the equivalent of one point five million today. He got

556
00:31:51,922 --> 00:31:56,642
Speaker 2: a job with NBC, but by summer of nineteen fifty eight,

557
00:31:57,042 --> 00:32:00,722
Speaker 2: he was on a different kind of hot seat. Twenty

558
00:32:00,802 --> 00:32:04,362
Speaker 2: one had been rigged for Van Doren to win. He

559
00:32:04,482 --> 00:32:09,322
Speaker 2: had been given the answers, so had Stemple. Both had

560
00:32:09,362 --> 00:32:13,122
Speaker 2: been coached to appear as sympathetic as possible to the

561
00:32:13,202 --> 00:32:18,402
Speaker 2: viewing audience. Along with other contestants, Van Doren lied to

562
00:32:18,442 --> 00:32:22,842
Speaker 2: a Manhattan grand jury about the allegations before finally coming

563
00:32:22,922 --> 00:32:26,882
Speaker 2: clean in nineteen fifty nine. He lost his jobs at

564
00:32:26,922 --> 00:32:31,122
Speaker 2: Columbia and NBC and rarely spoke about the scandal.

565
00:32:31,642 --> 00:32:35,762
Speaker 8: When that came to light, Congress actually held an investigation,

566
00:32:35,922 --> 00:32:40,002
Speaker 8: They held hearings, and is really the first time in

567
00:32:40,042 --> 00:32:44,682
Speaker 8: the nation's history that it became widespread public knowledge that

568
00:32:44,762 --> 00:32:47,322
Speaker 8: a lot of what was being presented on TV wasn't

569
00:32:47,322 --> 00:32:51,482
Speaker 8: actually real, And what came out of those Congressional investigations

570
00:32:51,642 --> 00:32:54,082
Speaker 8: was ultimately a criminal law.

571
00:32:55,522 --> 00:33:00,082
Speaker 2: That's George Bright again. George is the Deputy District Attorney

572
00:33:00,162 --> 00:33:04,562
Speaker 2: for Ventura County in California. In twenty nineteen, while he

573
00:33:04,682 --> 00:33:08,282
Speaker 2: was still a law student at Chapman Universe City, George

574
00:33:08,322 --> 00:33:11,402
Speaker 2: authored a paper where he took a deep dive into

575
00:33:11,442 --> 00:33:17,482
Speaker 2: the legal consequences of manipulating televised contests. After the quiz

576
00:33:17,482 --> 00:33:22,602
Speaker 2: show scandals, the Federal Communications Commission, or FCC was given

577
00:33:22,682 --> 00:33:26,242
Speaker 2: new powers to enforce fairness in game shows, and.

578
00:33:26,242 --> 00:33:29,442
Speaker 8: It actually makes it a federal crime, punishable by up

579
00:33:29,442 --> 00:33:34,122
Speaker 8: to a year in prison, to predetermine the outcome of

580
00:33:34,202 --> 00:33:38,242
Speaker 8: an intellectual game, game of chance or a game of

581
00:33:38,282 --> 00:33:41,522
Speaker 8: intellectual skill with the intent to deceive the viewing public.

582
00:33:42,122 --> 00:33:46,642
Speaker 8: So it's actually a crime for producers to rig broadcast

583
00:33:47,282 --> 00:33:48,322
Speaker 8: game shows.

584
00:33:48,402 --> 00:33:52,322
Speaker 2: Following the quiz show scandals of the nineteen fifties, game

585
00:33:52,362 --> 00:33:55,602
Speaker 2: shows cleaned up their act. No one wanted to be

586
00:33:55,642 --> 00:34:00,562
Speaker 2: caught feeding answers to contestants and risk their reputations or

587
00:34:00,602 --> 00:34:05,642
Speaker 2: their freedom, but there were still controversies. In the nineteen seventies,

588
00:34:05,682 --> 00:34:10,482
Speaker 2: a game show producer criticized Hollywood Squares for writing funny

589
00:34:10,522 --> 00:34:14,282
Speaker 2: answers for their celebrity panel, even though they still had

590
00:34:14,322 --> 00:34:18,522
Speaker 2: to give a proper and unrehearsed response. Later in two

591
00:34:18,602 --> 00:34:22,562
Speaker 2: thousand and one, a game show on UPN titled Manhunt

592
00:34:23,042 --> 00:34:27,122
Speaker 2: received negative press when a producer revealed certain scenes had

593
00:34:27,202 --> 00:34:32,122
Speaker 2: been scripted. The show, about people being hunted by paintballers

594
00:34:32,202 --> 00:34:36,322
Speaker 2: on a remote island in Hawaii, actually shot some scenes

595
00:34:36,442 --> 00:34:41,002
Speaker 2: at a Los Angeles park. Those were gray areas in

596
00:34:41,042 --> 00:34:46,082
Speaker 2: which the lines between entertainment and competition seemed to blur.

597
00:34:47,122 --> 00:34:52,122
Speaker 2: Is a competition with physical skill or talent and intellectual contest?

598
00:34:52,682 --> 00:34:55,722
Speaker 2: Could you get in trouble for rigging a singing competition

599
00:34:56,002 --> 00:34:57,722
Speaker 2: or a stand up comedy game?

600
00:34:58,322 --> 00:34:59,842
Speaker 3: No one is really sure.

601
00:35:00,762 --> 00:35:02,642
Speaker 8: So I mean, I think it's debatable whether or not

602
00:35:02,762 --> 00:35:06,682
Speaker 8: comedy is an intellectual exercise, or whether or not something

603
00:35:06,722 --> 00:35:10,402
Speaker 8: like singing would be an intellectual exercise. But yeah, I

604
00:35:10,482 --> 00:35:12,882
Speaker 8: mean it's fairly broad what intellectual even means.

605
00:35:13,322 --> 00:35:17,042
Speaker 2: What's more, the FCC rule only applies to over the

606
00:35:17,122 --> 00:35:21,962
Speaker 2: air broadcast networks. Something on Netflix wouldn't be of concern,

607
00:35:22,482 --> 00:35:27,362
Speaker 2: but Fox was and is a broadcaster on public airwaves.

608
00:35:28,002 --> 00:35:32,562
Speaker 2: If Our Little Genius was indeed tainted by improper disclosure

609
00:35:32,602 --> 00:35:37,002
Speaker 2: of information, then USC five oh nine would certainly apply.

610
00:35:37,722 --> 00:35:40,842
Speaker 8: Uh, show like Our Little Genius, I don't think there'd

611
00:35:40,882 --> 00:35:43,322
Speaker 8: be any doubt that it would come within the purview

612
00:35:43,562 --> 00:35:47,522
Speaker 8: of the statute. I mean, that's the very quis essential

613
00:35:47,562 --> 00:35:50,162
Speaker 8: type of quiz show that the statute was designed for.

614
00:35:50,562 --> 00:35:53,042
Speaker 2: In order for that to happen, the FCC would have

615
00:35:53,082 --> 00:35:56,122
Speaker 2: to learn about it in the first place. But back

616
00:35:56,162 --> 00:36:00,082
Speaker 2: home in Arizona, Ben was having trouble coming to terms

617
00:36:00,122 --> 00:36:02,322
Speaker 2: with the Our Little Genius debacle.

618
00:36:02,722 --> 00:36:07,202
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, in the immediate aftermath and in the the

619
00:36:07,242 --> 00:36:10,562
Speaker 4: time to follow, I honestly did not talk about it

620
00:36:10,642 --> 00:36:11,082
Speaker 4: very much.

621
00:36:11,122 --> 00:36:12,122
Speaker 3: I didn't really want to.

622
00:36:12,602 --> 00:36:15,202
Speaker 4: I felt embarrassed about the fact that I had wasted

623
00:36:15,362 --> 00:36:17,962
Speaker 4: I felt like I had wasted so much of their time,

624
00:36:18,202 --> 00:36:21,282
Speaker 4: my father's time, and my mom and my brother and

625
00:36:21,282 --> 00:36:24,002
Speaker 4: my grandfather's time, because they all got flown out with me,

626
00:36:24,682 --> 00:36:26,442
Speaker 4: you know, to la to do this.

627
00:36:27,202 --> 00:36:29,882
Speaker 2: Worse, Ben felt like he had been cheated out of

628
00:36:29,922 --> 00:36:30,562
Speaker 2: a fair.

629
00:36:30,402 --> 00:36:36,442
Speaker 4: Shot, and so yeah, in the immediate aftermath, I'm feeling frustrated.

630
00:36:36,642 --> 00:36:41,522
Speaker 4: I'm feeling cheated of an opportunity to have actually earned

631
00:36:41,522 --> 00:36:44,962
Speaker 4: my way. I'm feeling ashamed of myself for cheating, for

632
00:36:45,162 --> 00:36:47,322
Speaker 4: knowing that they had given me an answer, and for

633
00:36:47,402 --> 00:36:49,242
Speaker 4: bowing to the pressure to go forward with it.

634
00:36:50,602 --> 00:36:54,202
Speaker 2: Finally, his father, Sherman, decided to sit down and pen

635
00:36:54,362 --> 00:36:58,122
Speaker 2: a letter to Mark Burnett Productions. In it, he detailed

636
00:36:58,162 --> 00:37:00,722
Speaker 2: what he felt was in propriety on the part of

637
00:37:00,762 --> 00:37:04,962
Speaker 2: the production of Our Little Genius. He wasn't the only one.

638
00:37:05,522 --> 00:37:08,282
Speaker 2: In a separate letter said in December two thousand and

639
00:37:08,322 --> 00:37:12,882
Speaker 2: nine to the FCC, the parent of another contestant detailed

640
00:37:12,922 --> 00:37:17,962
Speaker 2: a surprisingly similar story. The parent alleged that a producer

641
00:37:18,322 --> 00:37:22,162
Speaker 2: had phoned with a list of categories that might be

642
00:37:22,242 --> 00:37:25,562
Speaker 2: in the show to assess whether their child was well

643
00:37:25,682 --> 00:37:29,082
Speaker 2: versed in them. Here's George bridegim again.

644
00:37:29,562 --> 00:37:32,802
Speaker 8: And your son needs to know the Italian names of

645
00:37:32,842 --> 00:37:36,602
Speaker 8: the piano pedals, and were getting so hyper specific that

646
00:37:36,722 --> 00:37:40,722
Speaker 8: this parent was convinced that the producer was essentially feeding

647
00:37:40,802 --> 00:37:43,562
Speaker 8: him what the questions were going to be in advance

648
00:37:43,602 --> 00:37:44,202
Speaker 8: of the taping.

649
00:37:44,562 --> 00:37:48,402
Speaker 2: The parent stated they suspected the producer had given them

650
00:37:48,602 --> 00:37:53,042
Speaker 2: four specific answers to questions because the child was coming

651
00:37:53,082 --> 00:37:56,562
Speaker 2: on as a music prodigy. The parents were told they

652
00:37:56,562 --> 00:37:59,762
Speaker 2: should brush up on the names of musical notes, and

653
00:37:59,802 --> 00:38:03,082
Speaker 2: that it was very important the child knew the sixty

654
00:38:03,202 --> 00:38:11,322
Speaker 2: fourth note pemi demi semiquaver. When the parent broached their

655
00:38:11,362 --> 00:38:14,722
Speaker 2: concerns over how the show questions were selected in a

656
00:38:14,802 --> 00:38:19,242
Speaker 2: meeting with a production lawyer before taping, their child's appearance

657
00:38:19,482 --> 00:38:24,562
Speaker 2: was abruptly canceled. Whether they actually got the relevant answers

658
00:38:24,722 --> 00:38:28,842
Speaker 2: remained unclear, since the child never appeared on the show,

659
00:38:29,402 --> 00:38:32,402
Speaker 2: but it was enough for the FCC to take action

660
00:38:32,682 --> 00:38:37,322
Speaker 2: and launch an investigation, and that may have made some

661
00:38:37,442 --> 00:38:38,322
Speaker 2: kind of history.

662
00:38:39,042 --> 00:38:43,202
Speaker 8: So interestingly enough, from the time the statute was created

663
00:38:43,242 --> 00:38:46,442
Speaker 8: in the nineteen fifties all the way to the present time,

664
00:38:46,522 --> 00:38:50,202
Speaker 8: I believe Our Little Genius is the only show that

665
00:38:50,242 --> 00:38:55,322
Speaker 8: the FCC actually seriously investigated for violating the statute.

666
00:38:55,482 --> 00:39:00,122
Speaker 2: Soon Our Little Genius was becoming Our Little Scandal. In

667
00:39:00,242 --> 00:39:03,882
Speaker 2: January twenty ten, just a week before the series was

668
00:39:03,922 --> 00:39:08,242
Speaker 2: scheduled to premiere, The New York Times reported that Fox

669
00:39:08,682 --> 00:39:12,402
Speaker 2: was pulling the show, which was supposed to air directly

670
00:39:12,442 --> 00:39:16,842
Speaker 2: after American Idol. Instead, a rerun of the four hundred

671
00:39:16,882 --> 00:39:20,762
Speaker 2: and fiftieth episode of The Simpsons would air in its place.

672
00:39:21,442 --> 00:39:25,362
Speaker 2: Eight episodes had been taped, none would ever see the

673
00:39:25,442 --> 00:39:30,482
Speaker 2: light of day. According to co creator Mike Darnell, Burnett

674
00:39:30,562 --> 00:39:34,362
Speaker 2: had found quote certain information that was relayed in a

675
00:39:34,402 --> 00:39:38,402
Speaker 2: way Mark found worrisome and offered to reshoot the show

676
00:39:38,802 --> 00:39:42,082
Speaker 2: by paying for production costs out of his own pocket.

677
00:39:43,042 --> 00:39:47,002
Speaker 2: According to the Los Angeles Times, it was Burnett who

678
00:39:47,042 --> 00:39:50,922
Speaker 2: informed Fox there was an issue. In his own statement,

679
00:39:51,122 --> 00:39:55,802
Speaker 2: Mark Burnett said that some concerns had surfaced about contestants

680
00:39:56,162 --> 00:40:00,082
Speaker 2: being given more information than needed, and that the company

681
00:40:00,242 --> 00:40:04,522
Speaker 2: was no longer comfortable moving forward with the show. Burnett

682
00:40:04,682 --> 00:40:08,322
Speaker 2: said the following, I recently discovered that there was an

683
00:40:08,362 --> 00:40:12,642
Speaker 2: issue with how some information was relayed to contestants during

684
00:40:12,682 --> 00:40:16,282
Speaker 2: the pre production of Our Little Genius. As a result,

685
00:40:16,482 --> 00:40:20,362
Speaker 2: I am not comfortable delivering the episodes without reshooting them.

686
00:40:20,722 --> 00:40:24,442
Speaker 2: I believe my series must always be beyond reproach, so

687
00:40:24,522 --> 00:40:27,922
Speaker 2: I have requested that Fox not air these episodes.

688
00:40:28,922 --> 00:40:31,362
Speaker 1: Mark Burnett is one of the pre eminent producers of

689
00:40:31,442 --> 00:40:35,322
Speaker 1: unscripted programming on television. Even though we were incredibly pleased

690
00:40:35,362 --> 00:40:38,002
Speaker 1: with the quality of Our Little Genius, we respect and

691
00:40:38,042 --> 00:40:41,122
Speaker 1: appreciate its due diligence and the decision to pull these episodes.

692
00:40:41,642 --> 00:40:44,482
Speaker 1: We agree there can be no question about the integrity

693
00:40:44,602 --> 00:40:47,242
Speaker 1: of our shows. While these episodes will not air, the

694
00:40:47,242 --> 00:40:50,202
Speaker 1: families who participated in the show will receive their winnings,

695
00:40:50,482 --> 00:40:52,322
Speaker 1: and we are grateful for their participation.

696
00:40:53,402 --> 00:40:58,882
Speaker 2: This decision triggered an intriguing dilemma. The FCC rule prohibiting

697
00:40:58,922 --> 00:41:03,082
Speaker 2: the orchestration of game shows applies to shows that, per

698
00:41:03,122 --> 00:41:07,362
Speaker 2: the rule, are intended to mislead the public. But how

699
00:41:07,402 --> 00:41:10,162
Speaker 2: can you mislead the public if your show is never

700
00:41:10,282 --> 00:41:15,002
Speaker 2: seen by the public. What jurisdiction does the FCC have

701
00:41:15,242 --> 00:41:19,602
Speaker 2: over a show alleged to be improper when it never airs.

702
00:41:20,442 --> 00:41:23,962
Speaker 2: That question was never really put to the test. While

703
00:41:24,002 --> 00:41:29,002
Speaker 2: the FCC reportedly opened an investigation into Our Little Genius,

704
00:41:29,482 --> 00:41:33,882
Speaker 2: they never arrived at any conclusion. Since it was never broadcast.

705
00:41:34,082 --> 00:41:37,802
Speaker 2: It would be hard for anyone the FCC included to

706
00:41:38,002 --> 00:41:43,602
Speaker 2: argue viewers had been misled. It just disappeared, and even

707
00:41:43,602 --> 00:41:47,602
Speaker 2: if it had aired, the FCC's purview would probably have

708
00:41:47,682 --> 00:41:51,842
Speaker 2: been limited to the broadcaster, Fox, not the production company.

709
00:41:52,602 --> 00:41:56,282
Speaker 2: According to George Bridegan, once the decision was made not

710
00:41:56,442 --> 00:42:00,602
Speaker 2: to air the show, the FCC abandoned its investigation.

711
00:42:01,842 --> 00:42:04,562
Speaker 8: There's a legitimate question about whether or not a crime

712
00:42:04,642 --> 00:42:08,682
Speaker 8: even occurred. A good analogy would be if a cop

713
00:42:08,722 --> 00:42:11,562
Speaker 8: were to sit in a bar and see a guy

714
00:42:11,602 --> 00:42:15,762
Speaker 8: get absolutely drunk, go and grab his car keys and

715
00:42:15,802 --> 00:42:18,682
Speaker 8: start to walk out towards his car, stop him before

716
00:42:18,682 --> 00:42:20,442
Speaker 8: he even gets into the car, and says, hey, we're

717
00:42:20,442 --> 00:42:23,242
Speaker 8: going to conduct a dui investigation. And it's clear that

718
00:42:23,282 --> 00:42:25,722
Speaker 8: this guy is completely drunk, but he never actually drives

719
00:42:25,762 --> 00:42:29,002
Speaker 8: the car. Did he commit a UI have no, of

720
00:42:29,042 --> 00:42:31,442
Speaker 8: course not. It's sort of the same thing that Fox

721
00:42:31,482 --> 00:42:34,562
Speaker 8: did here. The show is never actually broadcast across the air,

722
00:42:34,962 --> 00:42:38,282
Speaker 8: and the statute is designed to protect the viewing public.

723
00:42:38,402 --> 00:42:41,442
Speaker 8: So if the viewing public isn't ever being deceived with anything,

724
00:42:42,242 --> 00:42:45,602
Speaker 8: there's really no reason for the FCC to continue pursuing

725
00:42:45,642 --> 00:42:46,482
Speaker 8: the investigation.

726
00:42:47,522 --> 00:42:50,322
Speaker 2: Naturally, we wanted to get the other party side of

727
00:42:50,362 --> 00:42:53,962
Speaker 2: the story. We requested a comment from Fox, but didn't

728
00:42:54,002 --> 00:42:57,242
Speaker 2: receive a reply. Mark Burnette was not able to be

729
00:42:57,282 --> 00:43:01,682
Speaker 2: reached for comment, and Mike Darnell's representatives did not respond

730
00:43:01,802 --> 00:43:05,402
Speaker 2: to a request for comment. To be clear, the FCC

731
00:43:05,682 --> 00:43:09,962
Speaker 2: never disclosed or alleged any evidence of wrongdoing to the

732
00:43:09,962 --> 00:43:14,162
Speaker 2: credit of Mark Burnett, Mike Darnell, Fox, and everyone else involved.

733
00:43:14,642 --> 00:43:19,122
Speaker 2: Once suggestions of impropriety were discovered, they yanked the show.

734
00:43:19,842 --> 00:43:24,082
Speaker 2: But was it improper? Asked about the controversy later in

735
00:43:24,122 --> 00:43:28,802
Speaker 2: twenty ten, Kevin Pollack said, quote, there were some questions

736
00:43:28,882 --> 00:43:31,642
Speaker 2: along the way as to how do you find out

737
00:43:32,002 --> 00:43:35,122
Speaker 2: what a little genius actually does or does not know

738
00:43:35,402 --> 00:43:40,082
Speaker 2: prior to the quiz end quote where's the line between

739
00:43:40,122 --> 00:43:45,402
Speaker 2: assessing a kid's knowledge and giving them knowledge, between seeing

740
00:43:45,482 --> 00:43:48,602
Speaker 2: if a kid knows about dinosauria and if he knows

741
00:43:48,682 --> 00:43:54,642
Speaker 2: the name Harry Seeley, between knowing musical notes and specifically

742
00:43:54,722 --> 00:43:56,882
Speaker 2: knowing about the Hemi demi semiquaver.

743
00:43:58,002 --> 00:44:01,402
Speaker 8: Well, ultimately, it'd be up to a jury about where

744
00:44:02,162 --> 00:44:03,002
Speaker 8: the line.

745
00:44:02,802 --> 00:44:03,642
Speaker 1: Is for all of this.

746
00:44:04,402 --> 00:44:06,722
Speaker 8: Could you meet with a contestant ahead of time and say, hey,

747
00:44:06,762 --> 00:44:08,762
Speaker 8: we want to make sure your child is at least

748
00:44:08,802 --> 00:44:12,962
Speaker 8: somewhat familiar with these topics. I think you probably could,

749
00:44:13,562 --> 00:44:17,042
Speaker 8: But where the clear line is is you definitely can't

750
00:44:17,162 --> 00:44:20,762
Speaker 8: be telling them what the questions are in advance and

751
00:44:20,802 --> 00:44:23,282
Speaker 8: then presenting it to the viewing public as if the

752
00:44:23,322 --> 00:44:25,962
Speaker 8: contestants hearing this information for the first time or they're

753
00:44:25,962 --> 00:44:27,722
Speaker 8: getting these questions for the first time.

754
00:44:28,202 --> 00:44:32,882
Speaker 2: But it does leave a pretty big unanswered question, what

755
00:44:33,042 --> 00:44:37,042
Speaker 2: would be the reason for slipping crucial trivia to the kids?

756
00:44:37,762 --> 00:44:40,802
Speaker 2: Why not just let them answer and let the chips

757
00:44:40,882 --> 00:44:45,122
Speaker 2: fall where they may. George Bridigham has a theory.

758
00:44:45,802 --> 00:44:50,082
Speaker 8: And then it's from the parents FCC complaint. They gave

759
00:44:50,602 --> 00:44:54,642
Speaker 8: answers to probably about three or four questions, and it

760
00:44:54,802 --> 00:44:58,082
Speaker 8: seemed kind of apparent that the production wanted the children

761
00:44:58,122 --> 00:45:00,402
Speaker 8: to be able to get at least through three or

762
00:45:00,402 --> 00:45:02,682
Speaker 8: four questions. They didn't want them all to be getting

763
00:45:02,722 --> 00:45:05,082
Speaker 8: knocked out of the very first question, because that just

764
00:45:05,082 --> 00:45:06,562
Speaker 8: doesn't make very interesting TV.

765
00:45:07,242 --> 00:45:11,882
Speaker 2: Perhaps producers had realized they had concocted a show that

766
00:45:12,082 --> 00:45:16,162
Speaker 2: was too difficult for kids to excel in that watching

767
00:45:16,402 --> 00:45:19,802
Speaker 2: children fail over and over again wasn't going to be

768
00:45:19,922 --> 00:45:24,362
Speaker 2: palatable to audiences, and so some steps needed to be

769
00:45:24,482 --> 00:45:28,602
Speaker 2: taken to better their chances. That could be the reason

770
00:45:28,642 --> 00:45:32,482
Speaker 2: the show also elected to institute the do over, where

771
00:45:32,562 --> 00:45:35,962
Speaker 2: kids who missed out on the first four questions got

772
00:45:36,002 --> 00:45:39,802
Speaker 2: a second chance, a change made later on and just

773
00:45:39,922 --> 00:45:43,602
Speaker 2: before episodes were being taped. But if this was about

774
00:45:43,642 --> 00:45:46,922
Speaker 2: making the audience feel good and the kids feel good,

775
00:45:47,442 --> 00:45:50,962
Speaker 2: it did a lousy job of it. Ben Mueller didn't

776
00:45:50,962 --> 00:45:54,922
Speaker 2: feel anything but resentment. He had come to play an

777
00:45:54,962 --> 00:45:59,242
Speaker 2: honest game, and in his view, that opportunity never came,

778
00:45:59,962 --> 00:46:01,842
Speaker 2: and it affected him deeply.

779
00:46:02,362 --> 00:46:05,682
Speaker 4: Now here's another kind of darkly humorous aspect to the

780
00:46:05,722 --> 00:46:09,522
Speaker 4: story is that after a couple of hours alone in

781
00:46:09,522 --> 00:46:12,642
Speaker 4: the hotel room, that little boy perished in that hotel room.

782
00:46:12,682 --> 00:46:16,762
Speaker 4: The adolescent who emerged afterwards was a little bit older,

783
00:46:16,922 --> 00:46:19,962
Speaker 4: a little bit smarter, and wiser about how the world

784
00:46:20,002 --> 00:46:22,842
Speaker 4: really works, you know, but not the same person at

785
00:46:22,842 --> 00:46:24,082
Speaker 4: the beginning and end of that day.

786
00:46:24,722 --> 00:46:29,082
Speaker 2: There were consequences that went well beyond preparing contestants for

787
00:46:29,202 --> 00:46:32,602
Speaker 2: a game. Kids as young as six were being put

788
00:46:32,682 --> 00:46:35,802
Speaker 2: in positions of feeling inadequate in front of an audience,

789
00:46:36,282 --> 00:46:39,922
Speaker 2: of letting their parents down, or if a parent should

790
00:46:39,962 --> 00:46:44,442
Speaker 2: decide their child couldn't answer a question, feeling their parents.

791
00:46:44,082 --> 00:46:45,522
Speaker 3: Didn't believe in them.

792
00:46:45,802 --> 00:46:50,922
Speaker 2: It was bumpy psychological territory. The cardinal sin of Our

793
00:46:51,002 --> 00:46:54,562
Speaker 2: Little Genius may not have been that it divulged some

794
00:46:54,802 --> 00:46:58,522
Speaker 2: information to the kids. It was that kids should never

795
00:46:58,562 --> 00:47:02,762
Speaker 2: be signing contracts warning them that a TV show could

796
00:47:02,802 --> 00:47:04,962
Speaker 2: cause severe emotional distress.

797
00:47:06,642 --> 00:47:08,162
Speaker 4: No, I didn't think that this was going to be

798
00:47:08,162 --> 00:47:11,362
Speaker 4: anything controversial, right. I really took at face value that

799
00:47:11,402 --> 00:47:15,002
Speaker 4: this was I was being given a chance to answer

800
00:47:15,082 --> 00:47:18,202
Speaker 4: questions using the knowledge that I had to potentially win

801
00:47:18,282 --> 00:47:21,322
Speaker 4: my way to be able to not worry about college tuition,

802
00:47:21,562 --> 00:47:24,962
Speaker 4: And like, what a huge relief that would have been,

803
00:47:25,122 --> 00:47:28,242
Speaker 4: Like what it is hard not to think about how

804
00:47:28,282 --> 00:47:31,202
Speaker 4: different my trajectory would have been if I had legitimately

805
00:47:31,282 --> 00:47:34,482
Speaker 4: been given that chance. My understanding was that this would

806
00:47:34,482 --> 00:47:37,242
Speaker 4: be a legit chance, and so I studied, you know,

807
00:47:37,522 --> 00:47:39,722
Speaker 4: I put my back into it with the understanding that,

808
00:47:39,802 --> 00:47:42,042
Speaker 4: like this is the opportunity, You're never going to get

809
00:47:42,042 --> 00:47:43,002
Speaker 4: an opportunity like this.

810
00:47:43,122 --> 00:47:45,762
Speaker 3: Again, what about the other Little Geniuses?

811
00:47:46,322 --> 00:47:50,362
Speaker 2: The show's publicity material didn't use last names, which makes

812
00:47:50,442 --> 00:47:55,442
Speaker 2: locating them difficult. We approached one other player we could identify,

813
00:47:55,802 --> 00:47:58,682
Speaker 2: but because he was just six at the time, it

814
00:47:58,722 --> 00:48:02,562
Speaker 2: couldn't recall a whole lot. The person's parent, while not

815
00:48:02,642 --> 00:48:06,002
Speaker 2: consenting to an interview, told us they were never given

816
00:48:06,082 --> 00:48:09,962
Speaker 2: information by the show's producers, meaning that not all Little

817
00:48:10,002 --> 00:48:14,842
Speaker 2: Geniuses had the same experience. As of this recording, Ben

818
00:48:14,962 --> 00:48:18,002
Speaker 2: is the only contestant from Our Little Genius to come

819
00:48:18,082 --> 00:48:22,482
Speaker 2: forward publicly. In twenty twenty one, he decided to speak

820
00:48:22,482 --> 00:48:26,522
Speaker 2: to reporter John Deanna of the Arizona Public and detail

821
00:48:26,642 --> 00:48:31,682
Speaker 2: his experiences. It was difficult then and it's difficult now.

822
00:48:32,282 --> 00:48:35,282
Speaker 2: He wasn't sure he wanted to revisit the story for

823
00:48:35,362 --> 00:48:39,402
Speaker 2: this podcast, but ultimately he decided to move forward.

824
00:48:40,002 --> 00:48:42,162
Speaker 4: So I didn't talk about it much with my parents.

825
00:48:42,202 --> 00:48:44,602
Speaker 4: I didn't want to. I didn't talk about it at

826
00:48:44,642 --> 00:48:48,522
Speaker 4: all really to my friends for many years afterwards, because

827
00:48:48,562 --> 00:48:50,562
Speaker 4: I just didn't know how to tell the story.

828
00:48:53,362 --> 00:48:56,522
Speaker 2: This story has mostly been about Ben Mohler as a

829
00:48:56,602 --> 00:48:59,282
Speaker 2: ten year old, as though he were frozen in time.

830
00:48:59,922 --> 00:49:03,762
Speaker 2: But Our Little Genius was fifteen years ago. There's another

831
00:49:03,962 --> 00:49:07,842
Speaker 2: Ben Mohler story to tell, the one where bendes there's

832
00:49:08,002 --> 00:49:10,162
Speaker 2: a lot of learning left to do, But.

833
00:49:10,202 --> 00:49:12,922
Speaker 4: At the time my response was, you just have to

834
00:49:13,002 --> 00:49:15,802
Speaker 4: learn more. Knows to the grindstone, take the opportunities as

835
00:49:15,842 --> 00:49:16,282
Speaker 4: they come.

836
00:49:16,722 --> 00:49:20,642
Speaker 2: He had worried about missing out on college. Instead, it

837
00:49:20,762 --> 00:49:24,202
Speaker 2: was the lass that drove him to work harder than ever.

838
00:49:24,882 --> 00:49:28,322
Speaker 4: I made the choice the same day to double down

839
00:49:28,362 --> 00:49:32,042
Speaker 4: on paleontology. I blamed myself for not knowing enough. Even

840
00:49:32,082 --> 00:49:35,042
Speaker 4: if I disagreed with the questions that I had been given,

841
00:49:35,642 --> 00:49:38,442
Speaker 4: I still felt that I felt that I had been right,

842
00:49:38,562 --> 00:49:41,202
Speaker 4: but that if I had still known more, I would

843
00:49:41,202 --> 00:49:41,842
Speaker 4: have done better.

844
00:49:42,562 --> 00:49:46,802
Speaker 2: Ben attended the University of Arizona and earned two degrees,

845
00:49:47,282 --> 00:49:52,522
Speaker 2: one in ecology and evolutionary biology and one in the geosciences.

846
00:49:53,082 --> 00:49:56,882
Speaker 2: He digs up dinosaur bones with an adult knowledge and

847
00:49:57,002 --> 00:50:01,162
Speaker 2: a ten year old's curiosity. He pursues his passion as

848
00:50:01,202 --> 00:50:05,762
Speaker 2: a researcher and educator even after the quiz show experience

849
00:50:05,922 --> 00:50:10,202
Speaker 2: threatened to contin emanated, and he's found some measure of

850
00:50:10,322 --> 00:50:14,722
Speaker 2: peace in realizing his younger self isn't to blame. His

851
00:50:14,842 --> 00:50:16,602
Speaker 2: love of science is intact.

852
00:50:17,202 --> 00:50:20,442
Speaker 4: I would say, what from the beginning really hooked me

853
00:50:20,482 --> 00:50:24,082
Speaker 4: about paleentology and has continued to keep me in this

854
00:50:24,202 --> 00:50:27,362
Speaker 4: space even now at age twenty five, is just the

855
00:50:27,402 --> 00:50:30,402
Speaker 4: fact that there's really no limit to the number of

856
00:50:30,482 --> 00:50:35,042
Speaker 4: questions you can ask paleontology. The purview of this of

857
00:50:35,242 --> 00:50:38,362
Speaker 4: this field of study is all of earth history and

858
00:50:38,442 --> 00:50:40,082
Speaker 4: every aspect of the Earth.

859
00:50:40,762 --> 00:50:43,762
Speaker 2: Now Ben Mahler can be the one asking all the

860
00:50:43,842 --> 00:50:48,882
Speaker 2: questions he wants, and he relishes not always knowing the answer.

861
00:50:55,562 --> 00:50:59,402
Speaker 2: This whole episode made me just stressed out in general.

862
00:50:59,722 --> 00:51:02,282
Speaker 2: It made me nervous for Quisho producers, It made me

863
00:51:02,362 --> 00:51:04,962
Speaker 2: nervous for parents, and it made me anxious for children.

864
00:51:05,562 --> 00:51:07,402
Speaker 2: This is just a very anxious episod for me.

865
00:51:08,042 --> 00:51:11,042
Speaker 6: Oh my god. It was so surprisingly moving, like when

866
00:51:11,042 --> 00:51:12,962
Speaker 6: he says the line about the hotel room, like he

867
00:51:13,122 --> 00:51:15,562
Speaker 6: relish is not always knowing the answer at the very end.

868
00:51:15,602 --> 00:51:18,362
Speaker 6: But before that, when he's talking about the little boy

869
00:51:18,362 --> 00:51:21,562
Speaker 6: who perished symbolically in that hotel room, broke my heart.

870
00:51:21,642 --> 00:51:23,602
Speaker 6: I was like, oh my god, I'm not a parent,

871
00:51:23,642 --> 00:51:25,962
Speaker 6: Thank God, because I think I would make terrible decisions

872
00:51:25,962 --> 00:51:27,762
Speaker 6: and put my children in these places where they would

873
00:51:27,762 --> 00:51:29,122
Speaker 6: have these stories and I'd have to hear them on

874
00:51:29,162 --> 00:51:31,322
Speaker 6: a podcast and go, oh man, I messed up. But

875
00:51:31,402 --> 00:51:33,442
Speaker 6: that little boy broke my heart. And then I was

876
00:51:33,482 --> 00:51:35,922
Speaker 6: so glad that he made it and became a palaeontologist.

877
00:51:35,922 --> 00:51:38,042
Speaker 6: This is the whole story was a roller coaster.

878
00:51:38,642 --> 00:51:42,482
Speaker 2: Kids should never, though, feel like financial responsibility for their family.

879
00:51:42,562 --> 00:51:44,482
Speaker 2: That's what stressed me out the most. But thought that

880
00:51:44,522 --> 00:51:47,362
Speaker 2: these kids knew that, like the money mattered, and like

881
00:51:47,362 --> 00:51:50,802
Speaker 2: what they did had like real world implications, like that

882
00:51:50,842 --> 00:51:51,522
Speaker 2: broke my heart.

883
00:51:51,762 --> 00:51:53,842
Speaker 6: His brother's future is hanging on how well he does

884
00:51:53,922 --> 00:51:55,602
Speaker 6: his a ten year old on a crazy set and

885
00:51:55,642 --> 00:51:57,522
Speaker 6: he's being told to have it was crazy for me,

886
00:51:58,002 --> 00:52:00,362
Speaker 6: just like also two thousand and nine, what a wild

887
00:52:00,402 --> 00:52:03,242
Speaker 6: time in reality TV. They were just throwing everything at

888
00:52:03,242 --> 00:52:05,202
Speaker 6: the wall. I'd forgotten how crazy it was.

889
00:52:05,442 --> 00:52:05,762
Speaker 3: Jason.

890
00:52:05,802 --> 00:52:08,242
Speaker 2: See, this is why what you did was okay because

891
00:52:08,282 --> 00:52:11,682
Speaker 2: your child wasn't under financial pressure. It was just entertainment.

892
00:52:12,082 --> 00:52:15,282
Speaker 5: Well, so I'll tell you the story here. When she

893
00:52:15,442 --> 00:52:17,602
Speaker 5: was two, we had a series of place mats. They

894
00:52:17,602 --> 00:52:20,242
Speaker 5: were like two dollars place mats I'd gotten from Kmart,

895
00:52:20,842 --> 00:52:23,202
Speaker 5: and one of them had all the pictures of the presidents.

896
00:52:23,442 --> 00:52:26,162
Speaker 5: And she's learning to talk. She'd like point and say

897
00:52:26,202 --> 00:52:29,642
Speaker 5: who's this, who's this? And so I would say that's

898
00:52:29,922 --> 00:52:30,682
Speaker 5: Richard Nixon.

899
00:52:32,562 --> 00:52:35,922
Speaker 2: Richard Nixon, who shows up in every one of these episodes.

900
00:52:36,362 --> 00:52:38,762
Speaker 5: And then she would ask, what does he say, and

901
00:52:38,802 --> 00:52:40,162
Speaker 5: I just thought it was a funny thing. So we

902
00:52:40,202 --> 00:52:43,202
Speaker 5: filmed a little video and so I'd ask her what

903
00:52:43,242 --> 00:52:47,042
Speaker 5: does Ronald Reagan say? And she'd say, mister Gorbachev, tear

904
00:52:47,122 --> 00:52:50,802
Speaker 5: down that wall. Oh. So we posted that on YouTube

905
00:52:51,362 --> 00:52:55,762
Speaker 5: and Gawker picked it up. At the time, very influential

906
00:52:56,482 --> 00:52:59,362
Speaker 5: Ryan Williams, producer called and asked if they could run

907
00:52:59,402 --> 00:53:02,242
Speaker 5: the video on the nightly news. I was like, sure,

908
00:53:02,882 --> 00:53:06,362
Speaker 5: Good Morning America played it the next day. Wow, you know,

909
00:53:06,442 --> 00:53:10,722
Speaker 5: millions views. And then Rachel Ray's team called and said,

910
00:53:10,962 --> 00:53:13,322
Speaker 5: would you guys want to come on and talk about

911
00:53:13,482 --> 00:53:16,642
Speaker 5: the making of this video? And we're like, okay, well

912
00:53:16,682 --> 00:53:20,482
Speaker 5: come on. And we get there and they've recreated like

913
00:53:20,522 --> 00:53:23,122
Speaker 5: a giant version of this place map and put it

914
00:53:23,162 --> 00:53:25,362
Speaker 5: in the middle of the set and they have us

915
00:53:25,442 --> 00:53:29,122
Speaker 5: come out and little Charlotte gets to ask questions and

916
00:53:29,162 --> 00:53:31,202
Speaker 5: has to go and point at the board and do

917
00:53:31,322 --> 00:53:35,562
Speaker 5: her little impressions. And it was incredibly stressful in the

918
00:53:35,602 --> 00:53:38,922
Speaker 5: moment of like, oh my god, what are we doing?

919
00:53:39,082 --> 00:53:41,602
Speaker 5: And that Rachel Ray's staff was great. They're like, look,

920
00:53:41,602 --> 00:53:43,842
Speaker 5: if it doesn't work, like, we just won't run it.

921
00:53:43,842 --> 00:53:46,282
Speaker 5: It's fine. Like they had the dogs from the dog

922
00:53:46,402 --> 00:53:48,562
Speaker 5: show there that day, and so that was like a

923
00:53:48,642 --> 00:53:52,482
Speaker 5: fun thing. Backstage, we have good photos with Rachel Ray.

924
00:53:52,682 --> 00:53:55,962
Speaker 5: Oh that's awesome. But there was no money or no scandal.

925
00:53:56,162 --> 00:53:59,562
Speaker 5: I had given her the answers, drilled the answers into

926
00:53:59,602 --> 00:54:01,802
Speaker 5: her over our place, map learnings.

927
00:54:02,242 --> 00:54:04,882
Speaker 6: No, wait, I have to know something. What does Charlotte

928
00:54:04,882 --> 00:54:06,882
Speaker 6: say about this? What does she recall of this moment?

929
00:54:07,082 --> 00:54:07,402
Speaker 3: Does she?

930
00:54:07,522 --> 00:54:10,842
Speaker 5: Yeah, doesn't recall it at all. But we have the

931
00:54:10,882 --> 00:54:14,402
Speaker 5: Brian Williams video and the Rachel Ray video, which we

932
00:54:14,482 --> 00:54:18,402
Speaker 5: will occasionally pop out when her friends come over and

933
00:54:18,682 --> 00:54:21,122
Speaker 5: she'll act embarrassed, but I think she thinks it's pretty cool.

934
00:54:21,402 --> 00:54:24,322
Speaker 5: Now we're in college essay season where she can take this.

935
00:54:24,602 --> 00:54:28,402
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, like any direction. It can be like my

936
00:54:28,642 --> 00:54:32,642
Speaker 5: stage dad, try and make me the bread winner after

937
00:54:32,682 --> 00:54:35,082
Speaker 5: the two thousand and eight financial crisis.

938
00:54:35,402 --> 00:54:37,402
Speaker 2: I'm going to insist that you send me this video.

939
00:54:37,682 --> 00:54:38,562
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is gold.

940
00:54:38,802 --> 00:54:40,122
Speaker 2: I can't believe I've never seen this.

941
00:54:40,522 --> 00:54:42,722
Speaker 5: Maybe we can play a little of it here in

942
00:54:42,762 --> 00:54:43,322
Speaker 5: the episode.

943
00:54:43,362 --> 00:54:44,042
Speaker 3: I would love to.

944
00:54:44,762 --> 00:54:47,202
Speaker 9: You may have heard of the term presidential scholar, but

945
00:54:47,322 --> 00:54:50,522
Speaker 9: the following piece of video, which got very big on

946
00:54:50,562 --> 00:54:52,162
Speaker 9: the web today, brings.

947
00:54:51,842 --> 00:54:53,162
Speaker 5: New meaning to that term.

948
00:54:53,442 --> 00:54:57,442
Speaker 9: Two year old Charlotte English of Wayne, New Jersey got

949
00:54:57,482 --> 00:55:00,802
Speaker 9: a place Matt showing the US presidents on it as

950
00:55:00,842 --> 00:55:03,682
Speaker 9: a gift from her trivia above dad, who bought it

951
00:55:03,762 --> 00:55:06,442
Speaker 9: for a kmart. Check out her knowledge.

952
00:55:07,162 --> 00:55:11,282
Speaker 5: Hey, what are you doing to your place? Matt? Can

953
00:55:11,282 --> 00:55:12,602
Speaker 5: you show me where Richard Nixon is?

954
00:55:14,682 --> 00:55:15,482
Speaker 3: And what does he say?

955
00:55:16,122 --> 00:55:16,202
Speaker 7: And?

956
00:55:18,602 --> 00:55:21,442
Speaker 5: Very good, where's Ronald Reagan?

957
00:55:25,122 --> 00:55:31,722
Speaker 3: That's right? And what does he say? Mister rocks right?

958
00:55:36,322 --> 00:55:39,082
Speaker 5: Very special episodes is made by some very special people.

959
00:55:39,722 --> 00:55:42,762
Speaker 5: Today's episode was written by Jake Rosson. He's one of

960
00:55:42,802 --> 00:55:47,122
Speaker 5: our most prolific contributors. His last episode was the one

961
00:55:47,162 --> 00:55:50,522
Speaker 5: about the time the Harlem Globetrotters actually lost. He's written

962
00:55:50,562 --> 00:55:54,202
Speaker 5: about stolen moon Rocks, the kid inside the et costume,

963
00:55:54,762 --> 00:55:57,322
Speaker 5: and many more and more to come. Our show is

964
00:55:57,362 --> 00:56:01,082
Speaker 5: hosted by Danis Schwartz, Zaron Burnett, and Jason English. Our

965
00:56:01,082 --> 00:56:05,602
Speaker 5: producer is Josh Fisher. Editing and sound design by Jonathan Washington,

966
00:56:05,962 --> 00:56:10,042
Speaker 5: Mixing and mastering by Beheid Fraser. Additional editing by Mary Doo,

967
00:56:10,562 --> 00:56:14,762
Speaker 5: Original music by Elise McCoy, Show logo by Lucy Quintania.

968
00:56:15,202 --> 00:56:18,762
Speaker 5: Our executive producer is Jason English. If you ever want

969
00:56:18,762 --> 00:56:21,362
Speaker 5: to email the show, hit us up at Very Special

970
00:56:21,402 --> 00:56:25,242
Speaker 5: Episodes at gmail dot com. Very Special Episodes is a

971
00:56:25,282 --> 00:56:27,162
Speaker 5: production of iHeart Podcasts.