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Speaker 1: the channel in your area. Hey guys, welcome to another
Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast I Am Devin, joined
Speaker 1: this week by Jill and Steve. Welcome Happy New Year.
Speaker 1: I know a couple of weeks ago, but I know
Speaker 1: it's a couple of weeks ago for you guys, but
Speaker 1: for us, is the first episode of the year that
Speaker 1: we're that we're recording. Yeah, you're giving away valuable information stopping. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Uh.
Speaker 1: This week we're going to talk about a man who
Speaker 1: was in a hurry to pack and accidentally locked himself
Speaker 1: in a suitcase. Yeah, it is probably cheaper than you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know buying an airplane ticket. You just check
Speaker 1: yourself in a bag. No more jokes here, no, okay, alright?
Speaker 1: Uh And this episode, before we get too far, was
Speaker 1: suggested by like everyone. I'm sorry if you've emailed us seriously,
Speaker 1: Like I would say, at least to fifty people have
Speaker 1: emailed us this story. So I'm not going to name names.
Speaker 1: Just if you emailed us, know that you're one of
Speaker 1: the special people that suggested it, and thank you so much.
Speaker 1: But yeah, how you're working for love? There, just a
Speaker 1: quick small ears warning. It's not really that bad, but
Speaker 1: we are going to talk a little bit about bondage later.
Speaker 1: So it's just unusual sexual practices. So if that's the
Speaker 1: thing for you, turn it off. Actually, I think if
Speaker 1: that's the thing for them, they wouldn't turn it off. Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: if it's a thing you don't want your children to
Speaker 1: hear about, please turn this episode off there and just
Speaker 1: burn your iPhone smash smashing it to us. Yeah, if
Speaker 1: it's new enough, here's the deal. On August m I
Speaker 1: six intelligence agent Gareth Williams was found dead inside a
Speaker 1: locked Duffel bag, inside a bathtub, inside a locked secret
Speaker 1: service safe house. And now I know some of the
Speaker 1: reporting says it's his apartment and some of it says
Speaker 1: it's a safe house. I think, what's going on. We'll
Speaker 1: address this a little bit in a second. I also
Speaker 1: read it was just a government owned department. I think
Speaker 1: that's probably the most accurate what it was. It can't
Speaker 1: be a safe house, because, oh my god, if that's
Speaker 1: actually a safe house, and m I six needs to
Speaker 1: just pack its bags and go home, go home. There
Speaker 1: have been like five different investigations and in quests into
Speaker 1: this death, and the findings range from probably an accident
Speaker 1: to definitely killed by the KGB. By the way, for
Speaker 1: those of you who don't know, m I six stents
Speaker 1: for Military Intelligence Department six, So it's a British intelligence agency.
Speaker 1: I guess you didn't know this mix and I six
Speaker 1: Is that what double O seven was a part of? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so something higher or something more secretive. Yeah, so let's
Speaker 1: back up a little bit. Gareth was a Welsh born
Speaker 1: scientist with a PhD. He graduated university first class at seventeen,
Speaker 1: which is actually impressive. I had to talk to one
Speaker 1: of our moths who lives in Britain to be like,
Speaker 1: is this impressive or is that first class or first
Speaker 1: in class? That's the same thing in Britain. I think
Speaker 1: it's the same thing. It's basically like graduating magna cum
Speaker 1: laude from university like an undergrad at seventeen, so it's
Speaker 1: you know, it's doing your entire four years of your
Speaker 1: first university experience at seventeen. So he's kind of a
Speaker 1: head smart. It's too bad you met it on timely
Speaker 1: and really. Yeah. He started working at the Government Communications
Speaker 1: Headquarters h Q. Yeah, which I understand is under m
Speaker 1: I six jurnsdiction or the other way around. I can't
Speaker 1: remember what the what they're essentially kind of like equals.
Speaker 1: I mean g C h Q was kind of the
Speaker 1: British equivalent to our n s A, and then M
Speaker 1: I six is there equivalent to our ci A and
Speaker 1: M I five is their equivalent to our FBI. See
Speaker 1: they were just almost it would be so much easier,
Speaker 1: right come, Yeah, they all share the same MOLES six.
Speaker 1: Geez No, it's it's one of those kind of confusing
Speaker 1: things that you know, even the people that I know
Speaker 1: who live in in the United Kingdom kind of are like,
Speaker 1: we don't really know how we're but they're all kind
Speaker 1: of secret e. So yeah, um, yeah, that is the point.
Speaker 1: Gareth was a quote unquote intensely private man. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: was into cycling and seems like that's about it. Also
Speaker 1: like long walks in the countryside, kind of you know,
Speaker 1: private e things, kind of introverted, solitary, solitary things. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was staying again at a safe house. There's two
Speaker 1: different ways that I've seen this reported. A one is
Speaker 1: that he was on his annual one month leave for
Speaker 1: that year. The other is that, uh, he was on
Speaker 1: like a secondary assignment with m I six and was
Speaker 1: hating it. So he was due to return back to
Speaker 1: his job at the g h Q in the midst
Speaker 1: of a transfer. Yeah, so I'm not I'm not totally
Speaker 1: sure which is is correct, but that's why I think
Speaker 1: it was. To my understanding, he was going to go
Speaker 1: back to g c h Q. Yeah, I mean, he
Speaker 1: was due to return to g h Q in in September,
Speaker 1: but whether that return was from his like annual month
Speaker 1: long vacation or from this other assignment that he had taken.
Speaker 1: It's I'm not totally clear, but I think he was
Speaker 1: on this other assignment and during that time he was
Speaker 1: living in a government apartment slash safe house. It's called
Speaker 1: safe house, a lot that had a security door. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have no idea. It's hard. I mean again, it's
Speaker 1: hard because this is all lots of it's classified. Wait,
Speaker 1: hold on, I think I missed something here because I
Speaker 1: thought he lived in that flat for like five or
Speaker 1: ten years. He lived in a different flat for five
Speaker 1: or ten years, not the one he was found dead in.
Speaker 1: Well that's That's the thing I don't get though, is
Speaker 1: that maybe I'm getting ahead again. But they found tens
Speaker 1: of thousands of pounds worth of women's clothing in the flat.
Speaker 1: Well maybe they did, maybe they didn't. That we will
Speaker 1: talk about, okay, but yeah, which it makes it hard
Speaker 1: for me to believe it. He just moved in for
Speaker 1: a few weeks and moved all that crapy. So I
Speaker 1: don't know what it's. It's very confusing. I haven't found
Speaker 1: I'm glad also because sometimes when I say I haven't
Speaker 1: found this. You guys are like, yeah, you just missed it,
Speaker 1: your dummy. But I think it's kind of this nebulous thing,
Speaker 1: which is I think okay, because again, he did work
Speaker 1: for secret services, and it's okay for me to kind
Speaker 1: of not totally understand what was going on. It is
Speaker 1: my understanding that he was in a house that was
Speaker 1: not his normal flat. And whether or not they found
Speaker 1: whatever they found in the place where he his body
Speaker 1: was found or his normal residence, that also is kind
Speaker 1: of unclear to me. But this is a great way
Speaker 1: to start this episode. We don't actually know what is
Speaker 1: and I think you know, I mean, there's there's statements
Speaker 1: that are made in succession that makes you think that
Speaker 1: one is the other, but I I'm guessing that it's
Speaker 1: just the way it's written sometimes and it's not exceptionally clear.
Speaker 1: It makes you make a bunch of presumptions about the story. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're laying out we don't know what those presumptions really are.
Speaker 1: That's okay. We know the important stuff. That's the important thing.
Speaker 1: So really the important stuff is he was due to
Speaker 1: return to his job at g h Q in September,
Speaker 1: apparently did stay in contact with his colleagues, which is
Speaker 1: another reason that I think he wasn't actually on his
Speaker 1: time off. I think he was actually on a different assignment.
Speaker 1: Because what happened was on August twenty three, he had
Speaker 1: failed to check in or otherwise just his colleagues had said,
Speaker 1: we haven't heard from him in a long time, so
Speaker 1: they sent the local police to do a really simple
Speaker 1: welfare check. And this is where things start to get.
Speaker 1: To steal a word from Steve Hinky hanky, Yeah, the
Speaker 1: police get no response from him, and somehow otherwise gain
Speaker 1: access to his apartment, probably through the manager's key, I
Speaker 1: would assume through the manager's key, but again it's oftentimes
Speaker 1: reported as a safe house, so like, isn't a safe house?
Speaker 1: And then if it is, how did they get in
Speaker 1: there and handing safe house keys outside? Yeah, yeah, so
Speaker 1: it's a little weird. But somehow or another they get
Speaker 1: access to the to the apartment, again, hopefully not breaking
Speaker 1: down the door or anything like that, because that was
Speaker 1: a welfare check. Let's know what they do. Typically I
Speaker 1: would assume that as well. But if it is a
Speaker 1: welfare check and they're like, we think he might be dead,
Speaker 1: you would probably want to break into the house, and
Speaker 1: some you'd want to get into. I don't believe they
Speaker 1: have the jurisdiction to just randomly break doors down fair enough. Actually,
Speaker 1: there's one case I know of. Did you hear the
Speaker 1: one about the baby that was crying in the apartment. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this happened I don't know, five or so, five or
Speaker 1: eight years ago whatever here in America. But yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: a neighbor heard baby crying this apartment and knocked in
Speaker 1: the door and there was no answer, no adult there,
Speaker 1: and and calls the police, and the police are pounding
Speaker 1: on the door, and and you know, mom or dad
Speaker 1: don't come to the door, and so finally, you know,
Speaker 1: the baby is still crying. So finally they kicked the
Speaker 1: door and to go in, and you know, the ultimate
Speaker 1: welfare check. It turns out it they had a like
Speaker 1: they had like a minor bird or a parakeet or something.
Speaker 1: So yeah, so they left a note for the owners
Speaker 1: when they're next to the shattered door. Yeah we broke in,
Speaker 1: but if it's missing, we didn't do anything, signed the police. Yep,
Speaker 1: we were not here. Uh So, Okay, So what happens
Speaker 1: is the local police gain access to the flat that
Speaker 1: Gareth is in, we're reportedly in and find his body naked,
Speaker 1: decomposing in a locked red north Face bag like a
Speaker 1: Duffel bag, in his bath in the bathtub. The reason
Speaker 1: this is a little hinky is because Gareth's family feels
Speaker 1: strongly that the police, either intentionally, according to the family,
Speaker 1: or otherwise which you know, allowing for mistakes, wiped any
Speaker 1: and all DNA and fingerprint evidence from what was probably
Speaker 1: a crime scene. Maybe not a crime scene, but that
Speaker 1: DNA fingerprint evidence could have definitely proven you should treat
Speaker 1: it like a crime scene usually, yeah, yeah, But it
Speaker 1: does seem as though they didn't. The texts weren't able
Speaker 1: to find any fingerprints or DNA anywhere around the bathroom
Speaker 1: or on the outside of the Duffel bag or on
Speaker 1: the lock or anything. And it should be noted Gareth's
Speaker 1: wasn't wearing gloves. There were no gloves in the bag
Speaker 1: with him, there were no gloves adjacent to him, so
Speaker 1: it wasn't as though he was hiding his fingerprints. Whether
Speaker 1: or not that's actually important is up to us to
Speaker 1: discuss in theories. But maybe he's one of those people
Speaker 1: that just doesn't have any DNA, Yeah, maybe one of those.
Speaker 1: DNA doesn't come off of you every time you come
Speaker 1: into contact with things. So no, but it does seem
Speaker 1: like at some point in this whole procedure DNA should
Speaker 1: have come off of him. At some point you would anyway,
Speaker 1: They did find a little DNA on Gareth's hand that
Speaker 1: wasn't that was not his and what we'll talk about
Speaker 1: that in a second. To a key, I'm not confirmed
Speaker 1: to be the only key, because I feel like locks
Speaker 1: usually come with a couple of keys, but at least
Speaker 1: one key, well, one key was found under Gareth's body,
Speaker 1: in the snuffle bag, inside the bag under his body. Yeah,
Speaker 1: not really true. Investigators believed that Gareth had died one
Speaker 1: week prior, on August. The corner said that there were
Speaker 1: no injuries to Gareth's body or really any kind of
Speaker 1: sign of what caused his death. His body had no
Speaker 1: drugs or alcohol and there in its system, So wasn't
Speaker 1: that His official cause of death was ruled suspicious and unexplained.
Speaker 1: He's pretty decomposed when they got him, yeah, which was
Speaker 1: weird for having only been a week August August, and
Speaker 1: it's a locked room, it's very hot. The heat was
Speaker 1: turned on in his apartment. So again little little things
Speaker 1: that make this case a little weird and suspicious in
Speaker 1: what may seem like a cover up of their own
Speaker 1: um hyinees. The Metropolitan Police um that were at that
Speaker 1: time investigators said, oh, and by the way, Mr Williams
Speaker 1: looked at a whole lot of bondage stuff, weird websites
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. My words not there, it's just
Speaker 1: to be clear. So that investigation did conclude that Gareth
Speaker 1: had locked himself in the bag, even though they concluded
Speaker 1: that it was impossible for him to have locked himself
Speaker 1: in the bag. They had they had an investigator who tried,
Speaker 1: I think they had two different investigators who tried over
Speaker 1: four hundred times to lock themselves in a bag just
Speaker 1: exactly the same kind of north Face bag, and they
Speaker 1: couldn't do it. So they were like, listen, it's impossible
Speaker 1: he could not have done it. But also we'll talk
Speaker 1: about that, but this is what they found. This is
Speaker 1: what they found in two thousand and ten. They were like, listen,
Speaker 1: it's impossible, but he did it. Impossible, dream that makes sense.
Speaker 1: A few years later, the corner decided to open up
Speaker 1: an inquest of her own their own. It was really hurt.
Speaker 1: It was a woman who's the corner, but it was
Speaker 1: her office. Mostly foreigners in Britain have a little more
Speaker 1: power than corners share in the US. I think that's true,
Speaker 1: partially because the corner kind of felt like she wasn't
Speaker 1: totally satisfied, but also because there was a request from
Speaker 1: the Williams family via their lawyer, meaning they were screaming
Speaker 1: a lot for attention. They attention, they were not attention
Speaker 1: to the case, to not have it just swept out
Speaker 1: of the run. They were not satisfied with the findings
Speaker 1: of that initial investigation. There were some discrepancies. Um the
Speaker 1: family claimed that someone had broken in and stolen things
Speaker 1: and that that is how Gareth was killed, that he
Speaker 1: was killed in the process of this kind of picture
Speaker 1: of burglar killing me. If he breaks into my house
Speaker 1: me neither. You know. Maybe he said, hey and get
Speaker 1: in the bag. Here's here's a key. In twenty minutes,
Speaker 1: you can unlock yourself. I don't know. I mean, I agree,
Speaker 1: it's it's silly, but you know, there you go. There
Speaker 1: were no signs of fourth century quote there's this is
Speaker 1: a quote, right quote. No signs of fourth century unquote,
Speaker 1: but the Metro police did take all of the locked
Speaker 1: stores and hinges from his apartment, every door in the apartment,
Speaker 1: in the front door, it was definitely the front door
Speaker 1: at the very least, and I believe it was the
Speaker 1: rest of the doors as well. I'm guessing it's at
Speaker 1: least the front and the bathroom doors. Yeah, so it
Speaker 1: would have been hard for anybody to prove really anything
Speaker 1: based on the fact that they had been removed, which
Speaker 1: again is this weird thing away as they theoretically they
Speaker 1: were taking them somewhere to examine them and then they
Speaker 1: never returned them. Yeah, so you know, poor landlords who
Speaker 1: had to replace all the doors. Can you imagine, I mean,
Speaker 1: I imagine that the British police must do this as
Speaker 1: a semi regular practice. And how many doors they must
Speaker 1: have in storage somewhere. They probably got like a sort
Speaker 1: of a rebuilding kind of second hand rebuilding materials store
Speaker 1: going on. Oh see, I figured it must actually be
Speaker 1: where the basis of monsters inc. Is that because it's
Speaker 1: nothing but doors, you mean the basement of yes hardware. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just weird windows and doors, doors and doors and
Speaker 1: doors and none of them go anywhere. Yes, why it is.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's good of the police show up and
Speaker 1: it's like Fred, wats take all the doors in the
Speaker 1: windows and the life fixtures and all the switch plates.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the heating grates. Yeah, they they've all got
Speaker 1: to go, all of them. They're all They're really all
Speaker 1: important in the case. Yeah, if you want them back,
Speaker 1: you can come down to our store and buy them.
Speaker 1: We'll give them to you for not Yeah, visit us
Speaker 1: next door to the binman. Yeah. So, like I said,
Speaker 1: it would be. I don't know how the police gained
Speaker 1: access to his apartment initially. Again, I would assume that
Speaker 1: it was a landlord key, but we don't know that
Speaker 1: for sure. We don't know how secure the flat was
Speaker 1: to begin with, if it was actually like a safe
Speaker 1: house caliber flat, or if it was just a government
Speaker 1: owned place or what So. Do either of you remember
Speaker 1: what floor that was the top floor? But on that street,
Speaker 1: the buildings are three and four stories high for the
Speaker 1: most player. Okay, so if it's the top floor then okay,
Speaker 1: I mean it depends. I mean it's not ground level, right,
Speaker 1: That's that's really when I was getting at Yeah, I
Speaker 1: couldn't resist getting on street view and looking at and
Speaker 1: there's one modern artly building that's about five or six
Speaker 1: stories tall, and the rest of them are about three
Speaker 1: stories tall. Yeah. As as mentioned before, there was also
Speaker 1: some foreign DNA found on one of Garth's hands Gareth
Speaker 1: excuse me, Gareth's hands. In America, we say Garth, Uh,
Speaker 1: it's true. But it turned out that it was one
Speaker 1: of the forensic investigators touched his hand without a glove on,
Speaker 1: which is kind of gross. And you think about it
Speaker 1: was a week old, brotten corpse. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: touch it with that close. I'm not either, But like, also,
Speaker 1: you're an investigator, dude, like you were forensic investigators. What
Speaker 1: are you doing? But what are you doing touching a
Speaker 1: crime scene body that you just found in a duffle bag?
Speaker 1: Something as simple as having moved the body, taken off
Speaker 1: the gloves and turned and just brushed the hand without
Speaker 1: realizing it could be as as casual contact as that.
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be. It could have been like,
Speaker 1: you know, he ends up the bag and his hand
Speaker 1: comes popping out and he couldn't avoid it. He touched
Speaker 1: you know it just yeah, yeah, really, just great investigative work.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the thing. Right, is it's just little
Speaker 1: things like that kind of speak of this like that's
Speaker 1: why DNA evidence should not be considered, you know, so
Speaker 1: as this positive as a lot of people. Well, so
Speaker 1: the trick was that, um, this this agency, because it
Speaker 1: wasn't actually the police, it was this outside agency that
Speaker 1: processed all the forensic stuff, and they, you know, for
Speaker 1: exactly these reasons, have all of their employees and that
Speaker 1: technicians DNA profiles on file and they run that's one
Speaker 1: of the first things they do is when they find
Speaker 1: foreign DNA on a body, they run it against all
Speaker 1: their employees and then they run it against you know,
Speaker 1: known offenders or anything like that. So they ran it
Speaker 1: against their employees. But somehow this employee their number had
Speaker 1: been entered wrong or something like that. So they've been
Speaker 1: going like it would think it was three or four
Speaker 1: years later that this was happening that the coroner's inquest was.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize it was. It was like three or
Speaker 1: four years later. They were like, Okay, but this foreign
Speaker 1: DNA is obviously the best chance. The family was like,
Speaker 1: this is the best hope we have to figure out
Speaker 1: what happened to our dear son. And then they realized
Speaker 1: somebody entered their I D number and inverted to digits. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's how simple it was. On such a high profile.
Speaker 1: It was kind of like, how many times did this
Speaker 1: happen to other cases? Unless Yeah, I know, unless, unless,
Speaker 1: unless perhaps the killer after the fact, you got a
Speaker 1: job at this place. Yeah, yeah, that's probably not, probably not,
Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, I mean that's the whole problem with DNA.
Speaker 1: It's infallible as long as nobody screws up, as everybody
Speaker 1: behaves in exactly. Yeah. So the inquest also found that
Speaker 1: this whole like bondage website nonsense, had been sporadic and
Speaker 1: isolated quote unquote. I mean, like, let's be honest, who
Speaker 1: hasn't found themselves in the depth of I am not
Speaker 1: searches on bondage and LS stuff myself. I mean, you
Speaker 1: find you stumble across it on the web, but see it,
Speaker 1: But I haven't actually gone out and looked forward. Well
Speaker 1: for all we know, that's exactly it is. You click
Speaker 1: on the wrong video or the wrong link, and there
Speaker 1: you are get away fast. I don't I don't know
Speaker 1: if this does that mean he just accidentally visited a
Speaker 1: few sides or he was doing searches. No, I think
Speaker 1: it was. It was sporadic and isolated. Makes me think
Speaker 1: it was like every once in a while, will accidentally
Speaker 1: click the link sort of thing. Not I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: it's not like he was on there like googling things constantly.
Speaker 1: And just to clarify why this is important, Gareth was
Speaker 1: inside of a zipped and lock duffel bag, so naked naked,
Speaker 1: So this is this is they're they're saying that this
Speaker 1: is some sort of actor. Also, the police, the in
Speaker 1: the initial investigation, the police were kind of like trying
Speaker 1: to paint it as like a you know, auto erotica,
Speaker 1: asphyxiation sort of bondage play, costophilia, which is the which
Speaker 1: for those of you who can't make that leap, is
Speaker 1: the sexual pleasure of claustrophobia, right, not clusphobia. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: he to be clear, he had never searched any of
Speaker 1: that stuff that was that wasn't like where he was.
Speaker 1: But yeah, they were kind of trying to paint it
Speaker 1: as and I was actually just going to get into this.
Speaker 1: They're kind of trying to paint him as like a yeah,
Speaker 1: deviant or yeah, devian is probably the better word than
Speaker 1: than the other one I was going to use sounds like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't know that that's necessarily true. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think would make him that makes him a pervert. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So apparently there was evidence that there was like twenty
Speaker 1: tho pounds worth pounds is in the current Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so twenty pounds worth of women's clothing found in either
Speaker 1: his flat or the flat that he was in. It's unclear.
Speaker 1: And I just have already struggle with this a little
Speaker 1: bit because the assumption is it's his clothes that he
Speaker 1: that he was into wearing women's clothes, and you know,
Speaker 1: first of all, like there's nothing really wrong with that,
Speaker 1: like anyway, like you do you well, I don't know.
Speaker 1: So that was the thing, is you know he they well,
Speaker 1: I don't know that important. I know, I agree, I
Speaker 1: don't know. He was kind of a small all our guys,
Speaker 1: so yeah, so it could have been for like a larger,
Speaker 1: slightly larger woman. He apparently some shop people kind of
Speaker 1: in the area said, yeah, I remember that guy. He
Speaker 1: said he was buying it for his girlfriend. It seemed
Speaker 1: like it was it was like normal the normal range
Speaker 1: of a woman's clothing, so right, or like you know,
Speaker 1: super tall or like it didn't. Yeah, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: it seems like that was just it was fine, it
Speaker 1: was normal. I wasn't thinking it was for him or
Speaker 1: anything like that. Yeah. So I mean, which, like, let's
Speaker 1: be honest, please do um um. But I mean, it's
Speaker 1: it's just so tricky to me because they are I mean,
Speaker 1: it really feels like they're trying to like smear him almost,
Speaker 1: like look at this weird sexual deviant who like had
Speaker 1: all these women's clothes, which we don't know if they
Speaker 1: were for him or not. But like also he all
Speaker 1: sometimes every once in a while like searched a bondage
Speaker 1: thing and oh my god, he must have been so
Speaker 1: depraved that he would lock himself in this duffle bag,
Speaker 1: did a company apartment. Maybe we know that he bought
Speaker 1: all of those clothes. As far as I know, there's
Speaker 1: nothing that says that there was receipt after receipt on
Speaker 1: his bank account from ladies lingerie and dress stores and
Speaker 1: whatever kind of apparel stores. Well, first of all, he
Speaker 1: could have paid cash. But second of all, yeah, it
Speaker 1: could have been first girlfriend, it could have been for
Speaker 1: his girlfriend, or it could have I mean, we don't
Speaker 1: know if he had a girlfriend or not. It could
Speaker 1: have been for not, I mean, it could have who
Speaker 1: knows what it could have been. He was thinking about
Speaker 1: opening up a fashion business or something like, maybe he
Speaker 1: was reselling it for more money on the internet. He
Speaker 1: had them, I mean, but he actually apparently had taken
Speaker 1: some classes in fashion design. Yeah, and so maybe he
Speaker 1: actually had an interest in starting some sort of clothing
Speaker 1: on Maybe he did. I mean, I I just think
Speaker 1: I don't think it's outrageous so that they talked about
Speaker 1: his predilection for women's clothes and for bondage and stuff
Speaker 1: like that, because again, otherwise, how do you explain the
Speaker 1: fact that he's in a freaking bag locked in because
Speaker 1: it had been it had to have been foul play, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's exactly it. Right? Is that either he
Speaker 1: somehow well we're kind of delving into theories, but that's okay,
Speaker 1: give the Yeah. I mean, either he he was a
Speaker 1: like quote unquote deviant, which again, like I really just
Speaker 1: don't think this behavior is like that weird anyway. But
Speaker 1: either he was like quote unquote deviant, I don't think
Speaker 1: it's that weird, Like, okay, So, like you, I think
Speaker 1: it's pretty damn weird. But again, you had a giant
Speaker 1: bag in your in your house once and I watched
Speaker 1: you get into it, saw me put my cat into
Speaker 1: it or something. But no, no, no, no, it was
Speaker 1: a dry bag that was like six ft tall, and
Speaker 1: you got into it. You did it, you followed suit. Okay,
Speaker 1: either way, I mean, I think you're just free. I
Speaker 1: agree that zipping locking yourself into a bag is weird.
Speaker 1: I disagree that like the idea that you might be
Speaker 1: into women's clothes or whatever, that's not that weird in
Speaker 1: the grand scheme of things. But it doesn't it certainly
Speaker 1: doesn't make you like prone to yourself on accident. But so,
Speaker 1: either he does this quote unquote deviant behavior or he
Speaker 1: was murdered, Like, those are the two options, right, And
Speaker 1: so if that's a really weird way to kill somebody, right,
Speaker 1: But if he was murdered, then the police really did
Speaker 1: a bad job of their job in the initial investigation,
Speaker 1: in the preservation of a crime scene. So right. So,
Speaker 1: but so I think that that was kind of one
Speaker 1: of the reasons behind them making a big deal of
Speaker 1: all this stuff, because it made it so much easier
Speaker 1: for them to say he was super weird and locked
Speaker 1: himself into a bag, and that's why he died, instead
Speaker 1: of saying right, instead of saying, we accidentally got like
Speaker 1: trampled all over this thing and lost all of the
Speaker 1: evidence that might have been around. So okay, okay, So
Speaker 1: that's like a big old okay anyway, And like I said,
Speaker 1: m I six even agrees that this whole idea of
Speaker 1: you're you're free to live your private life how you
Speaker 1: want to live your private life, as long as you're
Speaker 1: not breaking the law, as long as you're not hurting anyone,
Speaker 1: as long as you can't be blackmailed for it. I
Speaker 1: mean right, well, but I mean even then, you know,
Speaker 1: what they were saying was listen, even if he was
Speaker 1: into bondage, even if he was into wearing women's clothes,
Speaker 1: that's fine, we don't really care. It didn't mean he
Speaker 1: couldn't do his job. He was good at his job,
Speaker 1: and that's all that matter. Yeah, I mean, a field agent,
Speaker 1: as far as I knew, you know, in the secret services,
Speaker 1: ours as well as theirs. If you have any really
Speaker 1: dirty little secrets like that, it's okay, but you have
Speaker 1: to tell your family and friends. If you're gay, you
Speaker 1: have to come out right because otherwise you could be blackmailed.
Speaker 1: So probably the same thing here. You probably had to
Speaker 1: tell his parents, Hey, I'm into women's clothing sometimes I
Speaker 1: like to get handcuffed in my bed. His parents didn't
Speaker 1: seem to have. They were like, okay, but stop making
Speaker 1: a big deal of it, like you were diverting from
Speaker 1: what's going on here, you know. And so it just
Speaker 1: makes me think that either it was his clothes and
Speaker 1: everybody was like, okay, calm down, or they weren't and
Speaker 1: everyone was like okay, calmed down. Like I don't know,
Speaker 1: I think the the clothing thing is this big weird
Speaker 1: thing that I just think it's relevant, but only only
Speaker 1: mildly mild, like the minimal Yeah, anyway, I mean to me,
Speaker 1: it's it's not so much that they had women's clothes
Speaker 1: as the fact that he added fifteen pounds worth of clothes.
Speaker 1: Yeah that's a lot. Thats fair enough of any kind
Speaker 1: of clothes. Yeah, I mean seriously, I mean I will
Speaker 1: never own that man, even if I win the lottery.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to have that much clothing, even because
Speaker 1: our podcast listeners are just filling up your banks. Uh.
Speaker 1: So this the corners in quest to look back to
Speaker 1: what we were talking about. Originally did conclude and they
Speaker 1: said they did not think it was a suicide. They
Speaker 1: thought it was mysterious and probably had foul play involved,
Speaker 1: but they didn't really know what kind. So in response
Speaker 1: to this in quest, the Metro Police reopened their case
Speaker 1: because they were like, wait, no, what and I guess
Speaker 1: they're kind of awful or something, and they really just decided, yeah,
Speaker 1: Gareth killed himself in the bag and that was it.
Speaker 1: That he had locked himself in the bag and then
Speaker 1: accidentally died because of all of the carbon dioxide that
Speaker 1: had built up in the two minutes or so it
Speaker 1: would take. They basically concluded that it would only take
Speaker 1: two or three minutes for the amount of carbon dioxide
Speaker 1: in the bag to reach lethal levels. I don't know
Speaker 1: how they determine that though. It was like maybe, I
Speaker 1: mean in a space that's maybe they said, Okay, this
Speaker 1: this bag is like three cubic feet or five cubick
Speaker 1: fee something like that. Okay, so it's like two ft
Speaker 1: by two ft by three and a half ft longer. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so something else to really consider here is that
Speaker 1: north Face bags are usually like leather resistant, so itsically
Speaker 1: like that rubbery kind of yeah, so it's not as
Speaker 1: though there'd be a lot of air flow in between.
Speaker 1: But still they're not totally airtight, so that their conclusion
Speaker 1: about But yeah, the conclusion about that would have been like, okay,
Speaker 1: based on this about of space, this is how long
Speaker 1: it would take them to x this much CEO two
Speaker 1: and burn up that much oxygen. But that doesn't take
Speaker 1: into account that there's air flow going through you know,
Speaker 1: little holes and the zippers and stuff like that. I
Speaker 1: don't think it's enough to negate. That's why I think
Speaker 1: it was the two to three minutes, not just well,
Speaker 1: and that doesn't mean that you didn't accidentally die or
Speaker 1: kill himself. It just means that it took longer than
Speaker 1: they said. They said it kind of taken as little
Speaker 1: as two minutes, but really if it took twenty minutes
Speaker 1: or thirty minutes, so what you know, I mean, well,
Speaker 1: then you got inside and fell asleep. So let's yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll just pause on that for two seconds because that
Speaker 1: really feeds into the first theory. So we'll just pause
Speaker 1: on that really quickly. Are we going to talk about
Speaker 1: the other victim in this the reputation of north Face
Speaker 1: because you know, they freaking hate this story. I'm sure
Speaker 1: they did. The fact that it comes up every time, Yeah,
Speaker 1: why did we put our logos so big on that
Speaker 1: every show, every every article you see they've got a
Speaker 1: big old north Face bag there, I know. Yeah, placement
Speaker 1: is what it is. Yeah, you know they found him.
Speaker 1: Actually it's some generic bag and then there there there
Speaker 1: there people went in there and then told the police, Hey,
Speaker 1: it was in this bag. Yeah, because it's so raw
Speaker 1: to resistant, an air tight that you could die in
Speaker 1: it is that good? It's great. It's great advertising too,
Speaker 1: because you know sometimes people want to buy a large
Speaker 1: bag to stuff a body end it's leak resistant. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So okay, after all of this, we're um, we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk about theories. But first let's take a break. You
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Speaker 1: lot like playing games when you were five years old. Okay,
Speaker 1: but for all, let's talk about theories. Theory number one is,
Speaker 1: as Joe and I were just kind of talking about
Speaker 1: totally leaving Steve out of this episode, Sorry Steve, uh,
Speaker 1: that he could have done it? Yeah? Could? I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't think like twenty minutes. I think if he
Speaker 1: did accidentally suffocate in the bag, it would have had
Speaker 1: to have been more quickly than twenty minutes. I mean,
Speaker 1: because he could have fallen asleep and didn't look particularly
Speaker 1: like it would have been comfortable, but it might have
Speaker 1: been for him. It was like, you know, I got
Speaker 1: myself all zip locked in this bag and and this
Speaker 1: is so nice. I feel like I'm back in my
Speaker 1: mother's womb and I'm just gonna just go to sleep.
Speaker 1: And he never woke up. You know, maybe that's you know,
Speaker 1: but obviously he didn't. He didn't smother to death like
Speaker 1: right away. Yeah. Most typically people that are in so
Speaker 1: kind of tight quarters that eventually run out of oxygen.
Speaker 1: It doesn't happen quickly. No, Thankfully they tend to pass
Speaker 1: out part way through so that they don't experience any
Speaker 1: sheer terror of being locked in a teeny box. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it didn't seem to be all that opposed to it, really,
Speaker 1: because frankly, if he had been opposed to it, I
Speaker 1: don't see any way you could shove a guy into
Speaker 1: a bag like that. Agreed, So this is kind of
Speaker 1: that unless it was unconscious, then it would be tough.
Speaker 1: It would be tough. We'll talk about that a little
Speaker 1: bit more in a minute. Okay, I don't know how
Speaker 1: you got these ordered this. This he did it to
Speaker 1: himself theory is kind of the like, well, we don't
Speaker 1: really know. So there's no evidence to suggest that it
Speaker 1: was a murder. So because why the hell would murder
Speaker 1: stuff them in a bag? Yeah, thinking on that as
Speaker 1: a murder of crandom in a bag to take a
Speaker 1: take the body elsewhere at some later point, Well, I
Speaker 1: just forgot to go back and get the bag. I
Speaker 1: don't want you to trample all over my awesome theory,
Speaker 1: so we'll just pause that for a minute. I mean,
Speaker 1: he could he physically could have locked himself in the bag.
Speaker 1: Despite that initial in quest of like saying we tried
Speaker 1: four hundred times and we couldn't do it. I'm like
Speaker 1: pretty sure that what happened there is that the people
Speaker 1: who are supposed to be trying to lock themselves in
Speaker 1: the bag went out for like five beers and came
Speaker 1: back and they were like, we tried, I don't know
Speaker 1: how long does it take to try? Um, we were
Speaker 1: gone for five hours, four hundred times. We tried four
Speaker 1: hundred times. I couldn't do it. We just couldn't do it. No,
Speaker 1: I think I think the problem is is that they
Speaker 1: tried to do it the same way over and over
Speaker 1: and over with very minor variations in there, which is
Speaker 1: crazy technique. So we all in this room have watched
Speaker 1: I think maybe too at least hopefully you guys have
Speaker 1: watched both of the videos that um. And one of
Speaker 1: them is with a woman who looks like she's about
Speaker 1: my son. She's a little she's like three inches smaller
Speaker 1: than Gareth. And then there's a one with a guy
Speaker 1: who's almost the exact same size as Gareth was, And
Speaker 1: I do believe that that three inches is really important
Speaker 1: in this sort of situation. The guy. The guy also
Speaker 1: had no trouble getting into that. Well, it took him
Speaker 1: a little longer than it took her. Yes, she, yes,
Speaker 1: she did go ahead. I was surprised. I actually, well, again,
Speaker 1: that's that three inches. I think it helps a lot.
Speaker 1: It'd probably be even easier for me because I'm a
Speaker 1: you know, a couple three inches shorter than her, but
Speaker 1: very convenient because I have a bag right now here,
Speaker 1: you know. But it's high classes. The whole reason that
Speaker 1: I bring this whole thing up is because the way
Speaker 1: they did it is absolutely the way I would try it.
Speaker 1: I can't even like fathom a different way of trying
Speaker 1: to lock yourself in a bag. I don't I don't
Speaker 1: understand how these other guys were trying it. So are
Speaker 1: you talking about their method of folding themselves in or
Speaker 1: the method of sealing the bag? Both? I mean, like
Speaker 1: well described real real quick. Explain to people how that
Speaker 1: went down, because you we've all seen it, but people
Speaker 1: who are listening haven't. And one of the links we're
Speaker 1: going to post is going to be to one of
Speaker 1: these So if you want to check that out, well,
Speaker 1: it's going to be to the man, because I think
Speaker 1: it's a more accurate representation of probably what it would
Speaker 1: have looked like but fair enough. Um, what happens is
Speaker 1: is they've got this big north face. It's kind of
Speaker 1: like a Duffel bag, but it's not really like a
Speaker 1: Duffel bag. I usually think of as being like this
Speaker 1: long tube with two like round and caps, you know,
Speaker 1: like an army bag. This is kind of like a backpack.
Speaker 1: They call it a hold all it's I mean, it's
Speaker 1: a little relevant. Um. And then it's got a zipper
Speaker 1: that is goes on three sides instead of like one
Speaker 1: down the very middle of it, right, so it like
Speaker 1: makes a kind of like a big yeah. So what
Speaker 1: happens is you can lay it down and kind of
Speaker 1: pop it up because it's that rubbery material so it
Speaker 1: will hold its shape, and you open the top part
Speaker 1: and you kind of just like fold yourself in. You
Speaker 1: you kind of just stick yourself in the fetal position
Speaker 1: with your back towards the part where there's no zipper's part.
Speaker 1: That's the easy part. And then you've got the lock
Speaker 1: hooked on one of the zippers and you can just
Speaker 1: reach out and pull that, you know, half away out
Speaker 1: and clarify to people because people may not get this.
Speaker 1: I didn't get this at first, the lock. If you
Speaker 1: look at some zippers, they have a ring built into
Speaker 1: the nose of the zipper buckle, not the pull tab.
Speaker 1: He didn't lock the pull tabs. There's he put those
Speaker 1: two rings together and was able to thread the half
Speaker 1: of the lock through that. And theory they all they
Speaker 1: said is the bag was locked. I don't did he
Speaker 1: actually get him through those those little rings. I have
Speaker 1: no idea. The thing that I read, yes, because they
Speaker 1: talked about how they figured out how he must have
Speaker 1: done it, because there's a method that thieves used to
Speaker 1: foil baggage security. Yeah, so either way you you can
Speaker 1: you can just like you know, sit up in your
Speaker 1: little field position and pull from the bottom and pull
Speaker 1: about halfway up, and then you just lay back down
Speaker 1: and you can the tab. The pull tabs are pretty
Speaker 1: hefty and long, and you just kind of like reach
Speaker 1: and you pull around and then you have to leave
Speaker 1: a little hole. But that's where that kind of the
Speaker 1: either the long pole tabs or the additional ring comes
Speaker 1: in handy, because you can leave a good two inches
Speaker 1: maybe three inches between where the zippers would close and
Speaker 1: as long as you've got your lock open already hooked
Speaker 1: on one you just kind of like finagle it. And
Speaker 1: this is again why I think the woman it was
Speaker 1: easier for her because she had smaller fingers, So it's
Speaker 1: a little easier, but just kind of and to use
Speaker 1: your little little pincer fingers and just it's not easy. No,
Speaker 1: it's not, certainly, And you have to be dedicated to
Speaker 1: actually locking yourself in, right, So that's kind of might
Speaker 1: have some practice too, right, But that is kind of
Speaker 1: that weird part right where it's like, even if you
Speaker 1: are into being in these enclosed spaces, why are you locking?
Speaker 1: Like why the part is weird, But that he was
Speaker 1: able to get the two ends of the zippers together
Speaker 1: and still have enough slack in the zipper line to
Speaker 1: almost create a you know, two rings of figure eight
Speaker 1: to get his hand through those two. That is the
Speaker 1: amazing part because he if he's in that fetal position
Speaker 1: as you describe, it means that he must have really
Speaker 1: you know, pulled his head towards his knees to compress
Speaker 1: that bag as much as possible in that direction to
Speaker 1: gain enough slack, right like that, that is an amazing
Speaker 1: amount of work and commitment to lock this itty bitty
Speaker 1: little lock it particularly have those baggage locks, and they're
Speaker 1: kind of a bear to lock, yeah, even when you're
Speaker 1: on the outside. Yeah, So that's kind of and that's
Speaker 1: where I think that three inches comes in really handy.
Speaker 1: When you know, she was threnches, she had the little
Speaker 1: up fingers and and she had just that extra couple
Speaker 1: inches of slack is so helpful when you're getting the
Speaker 1: lock done. I mean, that guy, he didn't mean he
Speaker 1: gave up pretty quickly. He the woman actually had it
Speaker 1: took her longer. It took her quite a long time
Speaker 1: to get that locked up, but she finally succeeded. She did,
Speaker 1: whereas the guy gave up kind of quickly, I thought,
Speaker 1: which is okay, I feel okay about what you say.
Speaker 1: I would have gotten frustrated and stopped too. One piece
Speaker 1: of evidence that was brought up in that he did
Speaker 1: this kind of thing was that Um, the landlords of
Speaker 1: Garret had been his landlords for like ten fifteen years,
Speaker 1: you know, in his normal flat. Um said that years ago,
Speaker 1: an unspecified amount of years ago, they were awoken by
Speaker 1: Gareth yelling, and finally, you know, we're so tired of
Speaker 1: him yelling that they went upstairs to his apartment and
Speaker 1: over I thought it was the apartment that he was renting.
Speaker 1: I thought it was an apartment too, but I could
Speaker 1: be wrong. Okay, the way it was described, I got
Speaker 1: the impression he was renting a room, but not in apartment.
Speaker 1: I thought it was. Anyway, they went in and they
Speaker 1: found him tied to the bed, and they told him
Speaker 1: to shut up and go back to sleep, and they
Speaker 1: went back to sleep. Yeah. No, they helped him, and
Speaker 1: he said, I was just practicing. I was just practicing.
Speaker 1: I promised to never do it again, And as far
Speaker 1: as we know, he never did it again. I mean,
Speaker 1: it sounds like he never got stuck tied to the
Speaker 1: bed again, so he was able to undo it if
Speaker 1: he did. Maybe he was. He was able to escape
Speaker 1: the next time, I guess, you know. For me, I
Speaker 1: could kind of see the argument of Okay. So one
Speaker 1: of the things we kind of glossed over was Gareth
Speaker 1: was going to work for m I six. He was
Speaker 1: working for m I six but actually teach you how
Speaker 1: to get out of it. Well, but he hated so
Speaker 1: he hated working for m I six. He said it
Speaker 1: was like this, like total like showman ship, my horse
Speaker 1: is bigger than yours, kind of like broy game. He
Speaker 1: hated it is bigger than yours. I know what you mean,
Speaker 1: but that's a funny way to see. Um. But you know,
Speaker 1: my rs faster than yours. I don't know, my watch
Speaker 1: is more expensive. Like it was just one upsmanship and
Speaker 1: he really just hated it. Um but Mike cue is
Speaker 1: an upper case and yours is a lower. Yeah, maybe
Speaker 1: I don't really so really what the whole thing that
Speaker 1: was going on there was really what I was kind
Speaker 1: of thinking about was that like maybe he because he
Speaker 1: seems to want he'd just been cleared to go on
Speaker 1: active duty, even though that's what m I six was,
Speaker 1: And it turned out like kind of field work okay,
Speaker 1: so not analyzing stuff in the office, but he seemed
Speaker 1: to not really like it. But regardless, I did kind
Speaker 1: of get this idea that maybe he was trying to
Speaker 1: be a real spy and like had seen you know,
Speaker 1: in like a Bond movie or some like weird m
Speaker 1: I six training something that like, hey, maybe you'll be
Speaker 1: locked in a bag and you need to figure out
Speaker 1: how to escape. So he was just practicing an accidentally
Speaker 1: killed himself. But it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't
Speaker 1: locking yourself into bag under your own will power. Yeah,
Speaker 1: makes no sense. I agree. I cannot come with any
Speaker 1: idea of all that. Logically, that's why. Logically, that's why
Speaker 1: the sexual sort of deviancy angle is the most realistic
Speaker 1: to me, because as a spy in training, there's no
Speaker 1: reason to do that. If you get caught by the
Speaker 1: Soviets safe for example, you know, they're not going to
Speaker 1: put you in a bag or tie you up in
Speaker 1: some weird thing. They just put you in a bag.
Speaker 1: You're alive, yeah, probably, yeah, good point. Yeah, They're just
Speaker 1: going to toss you a cell and then trade you
Speaker 1: back at first opportunity for another one of theirs, or
Speaker 1: torture you until you reveal all of the secrets that
Speaker 1: you know, because he might have known some secrets for
Speaker 1: so they're not going to put you in a bag.
Speaker 1: But you know, so I can only really see the
Speaker 1: sexual angle of this whole thing, right. But on the
Speaker 1: other hand, I feel like that's such a like cop out,
Speaker 1: you know that it's so easy for the Metro police
Speaker 1: too have been like, well, he dressed in woman's clothes
Speaker 1: and he was a total deviant and he was like
Speaker 1: this weird sex guy, and don't and so it made
Speaker 1: it easier leads to weird truth. No, well, I think
Speaker 1: that the sense I kind of get is that it
Speaker 1: was almost this like smear campaign because they think as
Speaker 1: a general, well in general, I think the it's easier
Speaker 1: for the public. You know, if you're throwing all this
Speaker 1: stuff like this guy was super weird and it's like
Speaker 1: not weird that he accidentally killed himself doing the super
Speaker 1: weird stuff, they're more liable to just go, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: he killed himself. He was a weird like outlied TV
Speaker 1: and dude, right, Versus if if you just kind of say, well,
Speaker 1: none of that's that weird, and none of it really
Speaker 1: leads you to believe that he would lock himself in
Speaker 1: you know, owning women's clothes doesn't mean that he would
Speaker 1: lock himself in a bag? What are you even doing it?
Speaker 1: Just you know, maybe he was a bag man. But
Speaker 1: but but yeah, I mean I don't know, he must
Speaker 1: have because who the hell else would do it. Well,
Speaker 1: so that's what we'll talk about in a minute. All right,
Speaker 1: let's do it actually right now. Okay, so let's talk
Speaker 1: about the theory that he did not do this to himself.
Speaker 1: I'm not disputing that he that he couldn't have done it.
Speaker 1: I mean that he could have locked himself in the bag.
Speaker 1: He physically could have locked himself probably, yeah, but like
Speaker 1: why would you? And that's the thing we've been struggling
Speaker 1: within this episode. Really really don't understand. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: for one, I don't understand why people or whatever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think it was hard enough. Watching those
Speaker 1: videos was really interesting because it was it was really
Speaker 1: hard for them to willingly get themselves into the bag
Speaker 1: now unconscious. Like with some work, you could probably get
Speaker 1: somebody in a bag unconscious or dead, but an unwilling
Speaker 1: participant who was like live and conscious, it would be
Speaker 1: impossible to get them in the bag. I just like
Speaker 1: impossible because you could, I mean even at gunpoint, not
Speaker 1: flailing resistance, but you could just not be flex. I
Speaker 1: don't fit. I'm sorry. I don't know what to tell you.
Speaker 1: It's weird. I don't fit, and I'm sorry, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of like you know, yeah, that doesn't so weird.
Speaker 1: The glove just doesn't fit me. It's so weird. It's
Speaker 1: like I don't know how to put a glove on
Speaker 1: or something. It's crazy. Oh yeah, he didn't even know
Speaker 1: what glove was, yeah, they've never seen this before. Uh
Speaker 1: one idea I did have Again that kind of went
Speaker 1: back to that like spy obsession. Was that like maybe
Speaker 1: for some reason, somebody else was on accident even killed him,
Speaker 1: you know that they were like, all right, we're going
Speaker 1: to do this training of let's get you in the
Speaker 1: bag and you'll train on how to get out of it.
Speaker 1: I'll let you out, don't worry. Was chev buddy told, yeah,
Speaker 1: what you should do? Well, that's actually that's kind of
Speaker 1: what I was thinking. Is my most likely scenario is
Speaker 1: that he was he was playing some sort of a
Speaker 1: game with one or two friends, you know, and his
Speaker 1: friends were you know, probably you know, d bags, but
Speaker 1: we need people like this teenagers, just the British version
Speaker 1: of deep chad. Yeah okay, they were as okay, they
Speaker 1: were chavs and and and he's like, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I kind of kind of like, you know, want to
Speaker 1: do the Udini thing in the bag and you guys
Speaker 1: lock me in, okay, sure? And and and then if I
Speaker 1: if I can't get out in like a minute, would
Speaker 1: you let me back? Of course? Yeah. And because they're chads,
Speaker 1: they look at each other and snicker. Andy said we're
Speaker 1: going to go to the pub for a part too soon,
Speaker 1: you know, and they live and then they come back
Speaker 1: and he's dead. Yeah, and they go, oh, you know, crap,
Speaker 1: and then they wiped the place down and leave. Well,
Speaker 1: even if totally that happen, well, I mean, even if
Speaker 1: we could go with the actual theory, if it really
Speaker 1: only took him like two to three minutes to suffocate
Speaker 1: in there, you know, I don't Suffocation is often times
Speaker 1: a really quiet thing, right, So it could have been
Speaker 1: that they were like, okay, yeah, Gareth will lock you
Speaker 1: in the bag for your big spy training thing, no problem, sure,
Speaker 1: just you know, give a holler when you need us
Speaker 1: to let you out or whatever. Yeah, And then you know,
Speaker 1: twenty minutes later they're like, boy, he's been there a
Speaker 1: long time, Gareth, Gareth, dude, dude, Okay, betterly. I mean,
Speaker 1: I could really be something as simple as that. It's
Speaker 1: not a super satisfying answer, but it could not. But know,
Speaker 1: it seems most likely to me, Yeah, that's probably what happened. Um.
Speaker 1: And there was the other thing that I'll bring up
Speaker 1: real quick before we go into the really fun stuff
Speaker 1: that Steve hates, is that there was reportedly an incident
Speaker 1: at an unspecified amount of time prior to Gareth's at
Speaker 1: some point in his career in his career, and it
Speaker 1: seems like it was a like a more recent thing,
Speaker 1: probably within a year. Maybe. I don't know if I
Speaker 1: had guessed that Gareth accessed confidential information regarding president or
Speaker 1: former President Bill Clinton. I think it's my understanding that
Speaker 1: what he accessed was a private guest list for an
Speaker 1: event that one of Gareth's friends was invited to attend,
Speaker 1: and like Gareth's friend wanted to see the guest list,
Speaker 1: and so Gareth like hacked into the Clinton server and
Speaker 1: got the guests else. Yeah, so I don't, um, I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't it didn't make people happy, well, so like
Speaker 1: it didn't obviously like that didn't make his supervisors happy, right,
Speaker 1: But also I don't totally understand the thought process behind that,
Speaker 1: but find whatever about them being unhappy about No, don't
Speaker 1: know about him doing that. Somebody wanted to have the
Speaker 1: guest list, well, but or you know, saying oh, yeah
Speaker 1: you want the guest list, shirt, let me just hack
Speaker 1: into this thing real quick and pull that for you,
Speaker 1: like your service, dude, Like, what are you doing well? No,
Speaker 1: it might have been somebody who was not actually in right. No,
Speaker 1: But that's what I mean is that like, I don't
Speaker 1: if I'm an m I six agent and my friend
Speaker 1: is like, hey, I got invited to this party. Can
Speaker 1: you hack into a server and find the guest list
Speaker 1: for me? Your supervisors probably won't be very happy with you,
Speaker 1: but you can do it anyway. I would be like, um, well,
Speaker 1: you don't know that he hacked. There's there's nothing about
Speaker 1: hacking or anything. I mean probably and I literally could
Speaker 1: have had access to it but was not supposed to
Speaker 1: be accessing it. That what I mean think about it
Speaker 1: is is m I six is the big thing is
Speaker 1: is they probably read Clinton's emails all the time. They
Speaker 1: probably read everything, well he and so and so. That
Speaker 1: that was the big dirty secret is you know there's
Speaker 1: they're reading the president's emails. It's described as um like
Speaker 1: an unauthorized access to a confidential information. So you're right,
Speaker 1: it couldn't. It could have been that he didn't hack it,
Speaker 1: but he gained he gained access to something he was
Speaker 1: not supposed to have accent and worst of all, shared
Speaker 1: it with the outside world. Right, So maybe his supervisors
Speaker 1: ordered the hit to shut him up or could punish
Speaker 1: him for something, and they decided it in a really
Speaker 1: low profile, stealthy kind of way. Yeah it worked. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's why all the clothes were there. They were like
Speaker 1: also the blue dress over left her clothes and the bag.
Speaker 1: Yeah that sounds very Clinton. Yeah yeah, it makes sense. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Or it's because he'd been working with them an essay
Speaker 1: and FBI to surveill Russia. Yeah, and Rusks did him
Speaker 1: in yeah. Yeah. So here's what we might know on this.
Speaker 1: It's Steve's favorite stuff. You've heard so much Russia hacking crable,
Speaker 1: I know, I know, um, but most of this information
Speaker 1: it so, most of this information comes from The Daily
Speaker 1: Mail and a defected KGB agent named Boris Courses Carpe.
Speaker 1: We're gonna call Boris bodies um And. In August of
Speaker 1: the Daily Mail reported that Gareth had been working with
Speaker 1: FBI and n s A agents to track cash flow
Speaker 1: out of Russia. Um And, according to Boris, the SVR,
Speaker 1: which is like the Secret Success, was responsible for Gareth's
Speaker 1: death because they had failed to blackmail him into becoming
Speaker 1: a double agent again recording. According to Boris, Gareth basically
Speaker 1: told Russia he already knew who the Russian spy inside
Speaker 1: of yeah g h Q was and basically that they
Speaker 1: would have to kill him to keep him quiet. Smart
Speaker 1: thing to the Russians, and Forest said um that they
Speaker 1: apparently did via an untraceable poison introduced via his ear.
Speaker 1: Remind me of this old Jack Handy saying. Remember Jack
Speaker 1: Handy says, you know it says like I think if
Speaker 1: you were an Indian way back in the old days
Speaker 1: and the Spanish kinds as it came out to you
Speaker 1: and demanded to know where the gold was, I don't
Speaker 1: think it would be a good idea to say I
Speaker 1: swallowed it. So su me kind of a similar thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I find it hard to believe that to say, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know who the rat is going to do about it? Huh, Well,
Speaker 1: I mean I think it's it's possible. Probably the phrasing
Speaker 1: was more like you, I know, you already have somebody
Speaker 1: in there, so no, right, I mean, still not smart,
Speaker 1: but probably not so much like no, I already you
Speaker 1: know well have been something more on the order of
Speaker 1: and this this actually does sometimes happen in the real world.
Speaker 1: When Gareth, like you know it looks at a bunch
Speaker 1: of stuff and and puts two and two together and says,
Speaker 1: and it goes to his boss and says, you know what,
Speaker 1: I have proof here that we have a mole in
Speaker 1: the organization. But unfortunately for Gareth, well the boss is
Speaker 1: the mole and so and such things have actually happened
Speaker 1: actually in the intelligence world, and so maybe that's what
Speaker 1: did it, man, But still I don't think it was them,
Speaker 1: because that's kind of a that's just not a low
Speaker 1: profile way to do it. But but the thing is
Speaker 1: is that the Russians at times can be weirdly petty
Speaker 1: about stuff. You know, they can they can take what
Speaker 1: they consider what seems like the smallest of slights and
Speaker 1: go to some weird lengths. He was listening to something
Speaker 1: the other day. You guys, have you heard of the
Speaker 1: mcginsky act? Yeah, yeah, okay, So mcginsky was. He was accountant.
Speaker 1: I believe he was Russian, even thought he was a
Speaker 1: Russian lawyer. Yeah, you're right, he wasn't lawyer. And so
Speaker 1: he's working for a guy who is he is Kenneth Duberstein.
Speaker 1: I believe it's how you pronounce his name. Yeah, Duberstein,
Speaker 1: that sounds better. But anyway, so he does something the
Speaker 1: Duberstein does, he's the Russians off. They tell him you
Speaker 1: can't come back in the country as lawyers, like that's
Speaker 1: really weird, looks into it. The Russians then arrest him
Speaker 1: and he dies mysteriously in custody. That's the lawyer, that's
Speaker 1: the lawyer. Yeah. So now Duberstein is like going around saying, Hey,
Speaker 1: all these countries, you got to stop the Russians from
Speaker 1: doing this. And every time that he gets some country
Speaker 1: to pass the act that he is pushing, they the
Speaker 1: Russians do something in retaliation to him, over and over
Speaker 1: and over, like apparently they just recently they put him
Speaker 1: on the top ten list for Scotland yard like, oh yeah, no,
Speaker 1: he's a he's a serial killer. He's crazy, like weird.
Speaker 1: But the US for just a little bit, they did,
Speaker 1: but but they do weird. But like I call it,
Speaker 1: I consider it petty acts because but they just think
Speaker 1: it's such a knee jerk reaction. Like I really do
Speaker 1: not believe that the Russians killed this guy, But my
Speaker 1: point is it's entirely possible because they kind of just
Speaker 1: their hair brained it time not but not if it
Speaker 1: was over a mole. Uh, and that's what's in M
Speaker 1: I six or g h Q. I mean not then,
Speaker 1: because you've got to do a really low profile hit.
Speaker 1: Then well, I do call a lot of attention to
Speaker 1: the fact that you just whacked the guy that knows
Speaker 1: them all told me the whole mole angle didn't come
Speaker 1: out for a long time. Yeah, and that probably was
Speaker 1: not It probably wasn't a thing. But I mean, if that,
Speaker 1: if that, if the Russians whacked him, they had to
Speaker 1: have a reason for it. Okay, either he knew about
Speaker 1: them all on G C s Q, or they tried
Speaker 1: to recruit him and he said no, or maybe both,
Speaker 1: or maybe both. But I almost wonder if it's that
Speaker 1: combination of they killed him and locked him in the
Speaker 1: bag and they're like, okay, but Orris, you will come back.
Speaker 1: It could be to pick up your bag. No, they
Speaker 1: were like, boys, you will pick up the bag and
Speaker 1: drop it in the river and it will be like
Speaker 1: he never existed and that's fine, right, And then or
Speaker 1: you know, or just forgets about it or can't gain
Speaker 1: access to the apartment again for whatever reason. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, and then suddenly you know, or he's like okay,
Speaker 1: I'll be back in like twelve hours it's fine, or
Speaker 1: like twelve days it's fine. And then the police come
Speaker 1: and discover it before he goes to pick up the body.
Speaker 1: And I mean, you know there is a possibility of
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think, you know, I don't think
Speaker 1: it would be anything is dumb is just forgetting about
Speaker 1: it or losing the key. No, I don't think. So
Speaker 1: we totally see where something was something I totally have
Speaker 1: foreseen what happened. I said. He gets run over by
Speaker 1: a bus, you know, and he's already you know, and
Speaker 1: maybe he's he's got the body in the bag and
Speaker 1: the batub and he hasn't moved it yet, and his
Speaker 1: controller or whatever says, hey, did you take care of
Speaker 1: that situation? And Boris says, boris real, I think he
Speaker 1: hasn't quite taken care of that last little detail. Says, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's all taken care of. Not to worry. Then he
Speaker 1: gets run over by a boss, but his control doesn't
Speaker 1: worry because that last little detail has all been taken
Speaker 1: care of as far as he knows. See, it wasn't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I mean, if the Russians did do it, they
Speaker 1: must have meant to come back and get the body. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would agree. I mean the other thing that is
Speaker 1: like a little we kind of glossed over this, but
Speaker 1: it's a little weird that you know it was August,
Speaker 1: but also the heat was like cranked up pretty high
Speaker 1: in the apartment, which aided in the accelerated decomposition of
Speaker 1: the body. Do we know what the heat was turned
Speaker 1: up to? Okay, the heat was on is all we know.
Speaker 1: But but why was the heat on in August? But
Speaker 1: in the middle of the night. I have woken up
Speaker 1: in August when it's been warm and then it cooled
Speaker 1: off at night, and I shut the windows and had
Speaker 1: contemplated turning on the heat. I mean, this, this does happen.
Speaker 1: So it's possible that he had a heat pump or
Speaker 1: some kind of automated system that was set to seventy
Speaker 1: five or whatever the equivalent is in in c But yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree. Except for that, the police did bring it
Speaker 1: up as like being weird and suspicious. Well, they also
Speaker 1: brought up his Internet searches and the women's clothes and
Speaker 1: anything else that they could sling at this story to say,
Speaker 1: not our fault, somebody else is weird. That's true, but
Speaker 1: it did his body was more decomposed than you might
Speaker 1: otherwise expect from that timeline. I think it's my understanding
Speaker 1: they came up with the timeline based on other activities
Speaker 1: that they could corroborate, not just like yeah, or like
Speaker 1: talking to people or being at work or whatever. Well,
Speaker 1: you know what, I what I find really funny is
Speaker 1: that you don't see a whole lot of information about
Speaker 1: is the fact that this was not the first welfare
Speaker 1: visit that had been done to his apartment, Like on
Speaker 1: the first day that he didn't make contact, they sent
Speaker 1: the cops over, and then they waited a full another
Speaker 1: week for doing it again. Like that's hinky. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a lot it's I think, you know, it's just like
Speaker 1: there's a lot of weird stuff that's going on with
Speaker 1: this case, which is why it's such a good Unsolf mystery.
Speaker 1: I don't I always favor the Russian angle just because
Speaker 1: it's like the most fun for me is an American
Speaker 1: as a true American citizen, or not necessarily even the Russians.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's other intelligence services, there's other bad actors
Speaker 1: out there of all kinds, I mean, and and a
Speaker 1: lot of the cash could have been in North Rurians,
Speaker 1: but you know, I could have been some private parties,
Speaker 1: because I mean, the whole Russia thing, cash flows out
Speaker 1: of Russia is not all just KGB. It was the
Speaker 1: Lake City quiet Pels. I'm pretty sure that. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but there's no reason to kill him and stuff him
Speaker 1: in a bag unless you plan on moving him. I agree,
Speaker 1: but I don't. I also don't think there's any reason
Speaker 1: to put yourself lock yourself in a bag unless it
Speaker 1: was the Vikings did well. The only another reason I
Speaker 1: could take this non kinking would be if he was
Speaker 1: on a Houdini kink excuse me, kick, was on a
Speaker 1: kick and because who do he did do stuff like that.
Speaker 1: So maybe he thought he'd go all Hoodini in the world.
Speaker 1: Maybe that was his hobby. Maybe he had this new
Speaker 1: hobby of doing. He seems like he would have been
Speaker 1: doing a lot of Internet searches for that though. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just how to escape a locked bag? Yeah, that would
Speaker 1: be the first thing I would google. Maybe, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe maybe he carefully hit all that stuff, yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought, seems about right, Yeah, but not his bondage stuff. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: all the weeks I don't know, what do you? I mean,
Speaker 1: I think most likely is that there was another party
Speaker 1: involved and they locked the bag for him in his
Speaker 1: behest and just left him there, let's see, and then
Speaker 1: just panicked and wiped the place down a bit and left.
Speaker 1: It's just kind of stupid and sad and tragic because
Speaker 1: who knows, maybe they could have called and gotten an
Speaker 1: ambulance there and maybe saved him him out of the bag.
Speaker 1: I think something similar to that. I mean, I had
Speaker 1: seen allusions to the fact that he had a lady
Speaker 1: over and they were playing some kind of kinky game,
Speaker 1: which is fine, but she may have, just as Joe said,
Speaker 1: locked the bag for him, and when he stopped responding,
Speaker 1: he was like, oh crap, I can't get it open,
Speaker 1: which would explain why everything either way, whether it's Joe
Speaker 1: or eyes, would explain why things were white down. Oh God,
Speaker 1: I have to get out of here. I gotta get
Speaker 1: my so wipe the bag down, white the lockdown, the
Speaker 1: tom you know, every surface that I think I came there,
Speaker 1: an attack with vacuum on the way out the door. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The fact that he's got no left, no fingerprints or DNA,
Speaker 1: and the lock kind of indicates to me that somebody
Speaker 1: else put the lock on entirely because he, while not easy,
Speaker 1: could have pinched the lock through the bag. The body
Speaker 1: of the lock, you know, the big, the square of it.
Speaker 1: He could have held onto that while he was threading
Speaker 1: it around. Now, that's a not a lot of room
Speaker 1: to move. And I understand that it's possible. Why I
Speaker 1: don't have the idea why unless he couldn't get his
Speaker 1: hand out of the bag enough and that was the
Speaker 1: only way he could get purchased was too I see
Speaker 1: what you're saying now, But I mean still why, because
Speaker 1: I mean, at some point the lock had to be
Speaker 1: transported over to the bag and put on the bag.
Speaker 1: Is he gonna wear glass for that? And if so,
Speaker 1: why why? I don't know? He was clean, freaking he
Speaker 1: was wiped it off because it was greasy and gay.
Speaker 1: I have no idea. I don't know why you get
Speaker 1: into a bag? Yeah, and I know it's it's this
Speaker 1: whole thing. I understand this. This is uh, this is
Speaker 1: a mystery that's actually been suggested to us. I don't
Speaker 1: know how many times, by how many people are but
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's obviously a really popular mystery because
Speaker 1: it is very inexplicable. It's it's there's not none of
Speaker 1: it makes any sense. I mean, murder makes no sense,
Speaker 1: kinky sex makes no sense, none of it does, none
Speaker 1: of it. Not a single thing about this case makes sense.
Speaker 1: Not really. Yeah okay, so, um, I guess we just
Speaker 1: agree that none of this makes sense and it's crazy
Speaker 1: and stupid and we'll never know anything. Yeah. I would
Speaker 1: say that if you're still investigating it out there over
Speaker 1: in written if you want to go my my cocky,
Speaker 1: my cock eyed theory of of the Russian agents or
Speaker 1: whatever agents bag the body and then got run over
Speaker 1: by a bus, well, you might want to check on
Speaker 1: like accidents around that time period which Soviet diplomats, for example,
Speaker 1: got run over by a busy. Let's do that to
Speaker 1: pursue That's the only angle I can think of really,
Speaker 1: Other than that, I'm kind of at a dead end here. Yeah. Okay, well, um,
Speaker 1: I guess that does it for this mystery. Lay Yeah.
Speaker 1: If you want to see that video that we were
Speaker 1: talking about earlier, some of our other research, you can
Speaker 1: go ahead and find that on our website, which is
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. On that website, you can
Speaker 1: also find links to merch episode lists, you can listen
Speaker 1: to the episodes. You can I don't know, do lots
Speaker 1: of other really fun things on it too. Moving on. Uh.
Speaker 1: You can also connect with us via social media. You
Speaker 1: can do that on Facebook where we've got a group
Speaker 1: and a page. Um. If you want to join the group,
Speaker 1: you just have to answer the questions. They're really easy.
Speaker 1: It'll take two seconds. What's your favorite color? Yeah, those
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Speaker 1: connect with us on Twitter, which where we are thinking sideways,
Speaker 1: and you can connect with us on Reddit, where our
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Speaker 1: people find us. Um Our iTunes reviews are going awesome,
Speaker 1: so let's keep that up. Oh yeah, by the way,
Speaker 1: I put the five star reviews and down with the reviews. Yeah,
Speaker 1: do it, um and then. Uh. The other way that
Speaker 1: you can reach out to us is by email where
Speaker 1: you can, um just talk to us or whatever you
Speaker 1: want to do. Really, um, that email address is thinking
Speaker 1: Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. All of that having
Speaker 1: been said, I think we're going to go ahead and
Speaker 1: bag this one. Yeah, mom jokes, Yeah, zip it up?
Speaker 1: What the come up with one? You can do it.
Speaker 1: Let's see, I'm going to north face it. Are you
Speaker 1: locked it in? Dang? Okay, we'll see you guys next week. Bye, guys.
Speaker 1: We gotta work on Joe's Putton say. I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: pack my bags