WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Gareth Williams 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.960 This episode of Thinking Sideways is not brought you by 0:00:03.360 --> 0:00:09.119 Dancing Slots. Instead, it's brought you by Bellevue. Beginning Tuesday, January, 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.920 w G in America premieres You're Nick's addicting mystery thriller 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:17.880 the new original series Bellevue starring Oscar winner Anna Paquin, 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:21.120 and it plays Annie Writer, a detective in the small 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:24.280 town of Bellevue where a transgender team has gone missing, 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:27.360 and he starts receiving creepy riddles and clues that could 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:31.400 be connected to the case. Critics Rave of Bellevue is original, ambitious, 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:35.840 and stands apart. Don't miss the series premiere of Bellevue Tuesday, 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:40.320 January three at ten nine Central on w G in America. 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.000 Go to w G in America dot com to find 0:00:43.000 --> 0:01:06.240 the channel in your area. Hey guys, welcome to another 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:10.160 episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast I Am Devin, joined 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:14.959 this week by Jill and Steve. Welcome Happy New Year. 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:18.120 I know a couple of weeks ago, but I know 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:19.560 it's a couple of weeks ago for you guys, but 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:21.920 for us, is the first episode of the year that 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:28.920 we're that we're recording. Yeah, you're giving away valuable information stopping. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Uh. 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:32.559 This week we're going to talk about a man who 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:35.319 was in a hurry to pack and accidentally locked himself 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:41.720 in a suitcase. Yeah, it is probably cheaper than you know, 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:44.319 I don't know buying an airplane ticket. You just check 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:50.360 yourself in a bag. No more jokes here, no, okay, alright? 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:53.360 Uh And this episode, before we get too far, was 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:58.240 suggested by like everyone. I'm sorry if you've emailed us seriously, 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:02.080 Like I would say, at least to fifty people have 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:05.000 emailed us this story. So I'm not going to name names. 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:06.920 Just if you emailed us, know that you're one of 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:09.560 the special people that suggested it, and thank you so much. 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:13.239 But yeah, how you're working for love? There, just a 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.480 quick small ears warning. It's not really that bad, but 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:18.440 we are going to talk a little bit about bondage later. 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:21.920 So it's just unusual sexual practices. So if that's the 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:24.040 thing for you, turn it off. Actually, I think if 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:26.520 that's the thing for them, they wouldn't turn it off. Okay, Well, 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:28.280 if it's a thing you don't want your children to 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:31.200 hear about, please turn this episode off there and just 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:37.880 burn your iPhone smash smashing it to us. Yeah, if 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:42.840 it's new enough, here's the deal. On August m I 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:47.359 six intelligence agent Gareth Williams was found dead inside a 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:50.600 locked Duffel bag, inside a bathtub, inside a locked secret 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:54.080 service safe house. And now I know some of the 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:56.399 reporting says it's his apartment and some of it says 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:59.920 it's a safe house. I think, what's going on. We'll 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:02.240 address this a little bit in a second. I also 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:04.959 read it was just a government owned department. I think 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:09.080 that's probably the most accurate what it was. It can't 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:10.919 be a safe house, because, oh my god, if that's 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:12.880 actually a safe house, and m I six needs to 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:15.720 just pack its bags and go home, go home. There 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:20.640 have been like five different investigations and in quests into 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:23.919 this death, and the findings range from probably an accident 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:26.760 to definitely killed by the KGB. By the way, for 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:28.280 those of you who don't know, m I six stents 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:32.959 for Military Intelligence Department six, So it's a British intelligence agency. 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:35.800 I guess you didn't know this mix and I six 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:38.720 Is that what double O seven was a part of? Yeah, 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:44.000 so something higher or something more secretive. Yeah, so let's 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:47.400 back up a little bit. Gareth was a Welsh born 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:52.520 scientist with a PhD. He graduated university first class at seventeen, 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:54.560 which is actually impressive. I had to talk to one 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:56.720 of our moths who lives in Britain to be like, 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:59.480 is this impressive or is that first class or first 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:01.640 in class? That's the same thing in Britain. I think 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:04.520 it's the same thing. It's basically like graduating magna cum 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:08.200 laude from university like an undergrad at seventeen, so it's 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:11.920 you know, it's doing your entire four years of your 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:15.360 first university experience at seventeen. So he's kind of a 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:18.919 head smart. It's too bad you met it on timely 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:22.679 and really. Yeah. He started working at the Government Communications 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:27.279 Headquarters h Q. Yeah, which I understand is under m 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:29.960 I six jurnsdiction or the other way around. I can't 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.360 remember what the what they're essentially kind of like equals. 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:34.839 I mean g C h Q was kind of the 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:37.800 British equivalent to our n s A, and then M 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:40.640 I six is there equivalent to our ci A and 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:43.360 M I five is their equivalent to our FBI. See 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:46.279 they were just almost it would be so much easier, 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:50.359 right come, Yeah, they all share the same MOLES six. 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:53.840 Geez No, it's it's one of those kind of confusing 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:56.080 things that you know, even the people that I know 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:58.800 who live in in the United Kingdom kind of are like, 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:00.840 we don't really know how we're but they're all kind 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:06.719 of secret e. So yeah, um, yeah, that is the point. 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:13.840 Gareth was a quote unquote intensely private man. Yeah, he 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:16.599 was into cycling and seems like that's about it. Also 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:19.400 like long walks in the countryside, kind of you know, 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:27.680 private e things, kind of introverted, solitary, solitary things. Yeah, 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.280 he was staying again at a safe house. There's two 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:34.200 different ways that I've seen this reported. A one is 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:37.040 that he was on his annual one month leave for 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:40.200 that year. The other is that, uh, he was on 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:43.359 like a secondary assignment with m I six and was 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:45.960 hating it. So he was due to return back to 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:50.479 his job at the g h Q in the midst 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:53.679 of a transfer. Yeah, so I'm not I'm not totally 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:57.840 sure which is is correct, but that's why I think 0:05:57.880 --> 0:05:59.560 it was. To my understanding, he was going to go 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:01.480 back to g c h Q. Yeah, I mean, he 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:05.240 was due to return to g h Q in in September, 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:09.080 but whether that return was from his like annual month 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:13.159 long vacation or from this other assignment that he had taken. 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:15.880 It's I'm not totally clear, but I think he was 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:17.880 on this other assignment and during that time he was 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:22.280 living in a government apartment slash safe house. It's called 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:27.480 safe house, a lot that had a security door. Yeah, 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:30.560 I have no idea. It's hard. I mean again, it's 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:33.680 hard because this is all lots of it's classified. Wait, 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.760 hold on, I think I missed something here because I 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.359 thought he lived in that flat for like five or 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.120 ten years. He lived in a different flat for five 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:44.320 or ten years, not the one he was found dead in. 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:46.719 Well that's That's the thing I don't get though, is 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:49.280 that maybe I'm getting ahead again. But they found tens 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:52.239 of thousands of pounds worth of women's clothing in the flat. 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:54.240 Well maybe they did, maybe they didn't. That we will 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:56.520 talk about, okay, but yeah, which it makes it hard 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:58.320 for me to believe it. He just moved in for 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:00.760 a few weeks and moved all that crapy. So I 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:04.599 don't know what it's. It's very confusing. I haven't found 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:06.599 I'm glad also because sometimes when I say I haven't 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:08.800 found this. You guys are like, yeah, you just missed it, 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:12.000 your dummy. But I think it's kind of this nebulous thing, 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.320 which is I think okay, because again, he did work 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:17.920 for secret services, and it's okay for me to kind 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:21.080 of not totally understand what was going on. It is 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:23.800 my understanding that he was in a house that was 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.840 not his normal flat. And whether or not they found 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:29.920 whatever they found in the place where he his body 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:33.480 was found or his normal residence, that also is kind 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:37.280 of unclear to me. But this is a great way 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:41.520 to start this episode. We don't actually know what is 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:43.560 and I think you know, I mean, there's there's statements 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:47.000 that are made in succession that makes you think that 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:50.000 one is the other, but I I'm guessing that it's 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:53.480 just the way it's written sometimes and it's not exceptionally clear. 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:56.760 It makes you make a bunch of presumptions about the story. Yeah, 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:59.280 we're laying out we don't know what those presumptions really are. 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.120 That's okay. We know the important stuff. That's the important thing. 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:06.600 So really the important stuff is he was due to 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:11.080 return to his job at g h Q in September, 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:14.200 apparently did stay in contact with his colleagues, which is 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:16.160 another reason that I think he wasn't actually on his 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:19.400 time off. I think he was actually on a different assignment. 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:24.360 Because what happened was on August twenty three, he had 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:28.360 failed to check in or otherwise just his colleagues had said, 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:31.120 we haven't heard from him in a long time, so 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:34.280 they sent the local police to do a really simple 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:37.040 welfare check. And this is where things start to get. 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:40.920 To steal a word from Steve Hinky hanky, Yeah, the 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:45.000 police get no response from him, and somehow otherwise gain 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:49.840 access to his apartment, probably through the manager's key, I 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:53.520 would assume through the manager's key, but again it's oftentimes 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:57.559 reported as a safe house, so like, isn't a safe house? 0:08:57.640 --> 0:08:59.240 And then if it is, how did they get in 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:02.520 there and handing safe house keys outside? Yeah, yeah, so 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:04.880 it's a little weird. But somehow or another they get 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:08.640 access to the to the apartment, again, hopefully not breaking 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:10.760 down the door or anything like that, because that was 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:13.079 a welfare check. Let's know what they do. Typically I 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:14.720 would assume that as well. But if it is a 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:16.760 welfare check and they're like, we think he might be dead, 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:19.679 you would probably want to break into the house, and 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:21.880 some you'd want to get into. I don't believe they 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:26.040 have the jurisdiction to just randomly break doors down fair enough. Actually, 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:28.320 there's one case I know of. Did you hear the 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:31.920 one about the baby that was crying in the apartment. Yeah, 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:35.240 this happened I don't know, five or so, five or 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:38.200 eight years ago whatever here in America. But yeah, I mean, 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:40.959 a neighbor heard baby crying this apartment and knocked in 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:43.280 the door and there was no answer, no adult there, 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:45.520 and and calls the police, and the police are pounding 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:47.960 on the door, and and you know, mom or dad 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:50.800 don't come to the door, and so finally, you know, 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:52.840 the baby is still crying. So finally they kicked the 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:55.280 door and to go in, and you know, the ultimate 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:57.240 welfare check. It turns out it they had a like 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:06.319 they had like a minor bird or a parakeet or something. 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:10.440 So yeah, so they left a note for the owners 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:13.800 when they're next to the shattered door. Yeah we broke in, 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:19.480 but if it's missing, we didn't do anything, signed the police. Yep, 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:22.760 we were not here. Uh So, Okay, So what happens 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:26.240 is the local police gain access to the flat that 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:34.760 Gareth is in, we're reportedly in and find his body naked, 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:39.959 decomposing in a locked red north Face bag like a 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:44.160 Duffel bag, in his bath in the bathtub. The reason 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:46.839 this is a little hinky is because Gareth's family feels 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:50.080 strongly that the police, either intentionally, according to the family, 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:54.480 or otherwise which you know, allowing for mistakes, wiped any 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:59.959 and all DNA and fingerprint evidence from what was probably 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.240 a crime scene. Maybe not a crime scene, but that 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:09.480 DNA fingerprint evidence could have definitely proven you should treat 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:12.720 it like a crime scene usually, yeah, yeah, But it 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:16.360 does seem as though they didn't. The texts weren't able 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:19.400 to find any fingerprints or DNA anywhere around the bathroom 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:21.560 or on the outside of the Duffel bag or on 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:25.199 the lock or anything. And it should be noted Gareth's 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:27.400 wasn't wearing gloves. There were no gloves in the bag 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:29.360 with him, there were no gloves adjacent to him, so 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:32.800 it wasn't as though he was hiding his fingerprints. Whether 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:36.200 or not that's actually important is up to us to 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:39.160 discuss in theories. But maybe he's one of those people 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:42.680 that just doesn't have any DNA, Yeah, maybe one of those. 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:46.000 DNA doesn't come off of you every time you come 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:48.800 into contact with things. So no, but it does seem 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:53.160 like at some point in this whole procedure DNA should 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.440 have come off of him. At some point you would anyway, 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:59.520 They did find a little DNA on Gareth's hand that 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:01.840 wasn't that was not his and what we'll talk about 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.880 that in a second. To a key, I'm not confirmed 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:06.600 to be the only key, because I feel like locks 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:08.560 usually come with a couple of keys, but at least 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:12.480 one key, well, one key was found under Gareth's body, 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:15.760 in the snuffle bag, inside the bag under his body. Yeah, 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:23.520 not really true. Investigators believed that Gareth had died one 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:27.800 week prior, on August. The corner said that there were 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:31.920 no injuries to Gareth's body or really any kind of 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:35.440 sign of what caused his death. His body had no 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:39.320 drugs or alcohol and there in its system, So wasn't 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:44.200 that His official cause of death was ruled suspicious and unexplained. 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:47.880 He's pretty decomposed when they got him, yeah, which was 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:52.800 weird for having only been a week August August, and 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:55.800 it's a locked room, it's very hot. The heat was 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:59.760 turned on in his apartment. So again little little things 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:02.960 that make this case a little weird and suspicious in 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:06.079 what may seem like a cover up of their own 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:12.079 um hyinees. The Metropolitan Police um that were at that 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:15.840 time investigators said, oh, and by the way, Mr Williams 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:19.199 looked at a whole lot of bondage stuff, weird websites 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:21.880 and stuff like that. My words not there, it's just 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:26.319 to be clear. So that investigation did conclude that Gareth 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:30.319 had locked himself in the bag, even though they concluded 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:32.880 that it was impossible for him to have locked himself 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:38.960 in the bag. They had they had an investigator who tried, 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:41.360 I think they had two different investigators who tried over 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:45.000 four hundred times to lock themselves in a bag just 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.560 exactly the same kind of north Face bag, and they 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:49.640 couldn't do it. So they were like, listen, it's impossible 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:52.440 he could not have done it. But also we'll talk 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:54.439 about that, but this is what they found. This is 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:56.720 what they found in two thousand and ten. They were like, listen, 0:13:56.720 --> 0:14:00.800 it's impossible, but he did it. Impossible, dream that makes sense. 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:05.040 A few years later, the corner decided to open up 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:08.800 an inquest of her own their own. It was really hurt. 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:11.240 It was a woman who's the corner, but it was 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.640 her office. Mostly foreigners in Britain have a little more 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:16.800 power than corners share in the US. I think that's true, 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:20.320 partially because the corner kind of felt like she wasn't 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:24.200 totally satisfied, but also because there was a request from 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:27.480 the Williams family via their lawyer, meaning they were screaming 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:32.000 a lot for attention. They attention, they were not attention 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:34.800 to the case, to not have it just swept out 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:37.560 of the run. They were not satisfied with the findings 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:43.840 of that initial investigation. There were some discrepancies. Um the 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:47.080 family claimed that someone had broken in and stolen things 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:49.880 and that that is how Gareth was killed, that he 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:54.920 was killed in the process of this kind of picture 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:57.400 of burglar killing me. If he breaks into my house 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:00.320 me neither. You know. Maybe he said, hey and get 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:03.080 in the bag. Here's here's a key. In twenty minutes, 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:06.640 you can unlock yourself. I don't know. I mean, I agree, 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:10.120 it's it's silly, but you know, there you go. There 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:12.840 were no signs of fourth century quote there's this is 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:16.360 a quote, right quote. No signs of fourth century unquote, 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:21.800 but the Metro police did take all of the locked 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:25.760 stores and hinges from his apartment, every door in the apartment, 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:28.760 in the front door, it was definitely the front door 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:30.520 at the very least, and I believe it was the 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:32.400 rest of the doors as well. I'm guessing it's at 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:36.280 least the front and the bathroom doors. Yeah, so it 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:40.040 would have been hard for anybody to prove really anything 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:44.040 based on the fact that they had been removed, which 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:49.040 again is this weird thing away as they theoretically they 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:51.800 were taking them somewhere to examine them and then they 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:55.920 never returned them. Yeah, so you know, poor landlords who 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:58.840 had to replace all the doors. Can you imagine, I mean, 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:01.760 I imagine that the British police must do this as 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:06.000 a semi regular practice. And how many doors they must 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:09.680 have in storage somewhere. They probably got like a sort 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:13.080 of a rebuilding kind of second hand rebuilding materials store 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:15.760 going on. Oh see, I figured it must actually be 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:19.440 where the basis of monsters inc. Is that because it's 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:26.120 nothing but doors, you mean the basement of yes hardware. Yeah, 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:30.280 it's just weird windows and doors, doors and doors and 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:32.400 doors and none of them go anywhere. Yes, why it is. 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:34.280 I mean, it's good of the police show up and 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:36.480 it's like Fred, wats take all the doors in the 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:39.680 windows and the life fixtures and all the switch plates. 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:41.480 Oh yeah, the heating grates. Yeah, they they've all got 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:43.720 to go, all of them. They're all They're really all 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:45.800 important in the case. Yeah, if you want them back, 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:47.320 you can come down to our store and buy them. 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:53.560 We'll give them to you for not Yeah, visit us 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:57.000 next door to the binman. Yeah. So, like I said, 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:00.440 it would be. I don't know how the police gained 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:03.880 access to his apartment initially. Again, I would assume that 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:06.199 it was a landlord key, but we don't know that 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:10.199 for sure. We don't know how secure the flat was 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:12.160 to begin with, if it was actually like a safe 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:15.440 house caliber flat, or if it was just a government 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:18.800 owned place or what So. Do either of you remember 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:22.080 what floor that was the top floor? But on that street, 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:24.439 the buildings are three and four stories high for the 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.719 most player. Okay, so if it's the top floor then okay, 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.520 I mean it depends. I mean it's not ground level, right, 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:32.280 That's that's really when I was getting at Yeah, I 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:36.280 couldn't resist getting on street view and looking at and 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:39.600 there's one modern artly building that's about five or six 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:41.360 stories tall, and the rest of them are about three 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:46.200 stories tall. Yeah. As as mentioned before, there was also 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:49.520 some foreign DNA found on one of Garth's hands Gareth 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:54.399 excuse me, Gareth's hands. In America, we say Garth, Uh, 0:17:55.480 --> 0:18:00.640 it's true. But it turned out that it was one 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:05.840 of the forensic investigators touched his hand without a glove on, 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:08.040 which is kind of gross. And you think about it 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:10.120 was a week old, brotten corpse. I'm not going to 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:13.879 touch it with that close. I'm not either, But like, also, 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:17.879 you're an investigator, dude, like you were forensic investigators. What 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:20.520 are you doing? But what are you doing touching a 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:23.160 crime scene body that you just found in a duffle bag? 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:28.160 Something as simple as having moved the body, taken off 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:32.879 the gloves and turned and just brushed the hand without 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:35.919 realizing it could be as as casual contact as that. 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:38.520 It doesn't have to be. It could have been like, 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:40.160 you know, he ends up the bag and his hand 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:42.320 comes popping out and he couldn't avoid it. He touched 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:47.640 you know it just yeah, yeah, really, just great investigative work. 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:49.680 I mean, that's the thing. Right, is it's just little 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:52.000 things like that kind of speak of this like that's 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:56.360 why DNA evidence should not be considered, you know, so 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:58.560 as this positive as a lot of people. Well, so 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:02.960 the trick was that, um, this this agency, because it 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:06.000 wasn't actually the police, it was this outside agency that 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:09.920 processed all the forensic stuff, and they, you know, for 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:14.040 exactly these reasons, have all of their employees and that 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:19.199 technicians DNA profiles on file and they run that's one 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:20.840 of the first things they do is when they find 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:22.919 foreign DNA on a body, they run it against all 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:26.040 their employees and then they run it against you know, 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:27.919 known offenders or anything like that. So they ran it 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:32.480 against their employees. But somehow this employee their number had 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:35.720 been entered wrong or something like that. So they've been 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:37.280 going like it would think it was three or four 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:39.840 years later that this was happening that the coroner's inquest was. 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:43.760 I didn't realize it was. It was like three or 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:45.960 four years later. They were like, Okay, but this foreign 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:48.600 DNA is obviously the best chance. The family was like, 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:50.840 this is the best hope we have to figure out 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.080 what happened to our dear son. And then they realized 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:56.360 somebody entered their I D number and inverted to digits. Yes, 0:19:57.160 --> 0:19:59.800 that's how simple it was. On such a high profile. 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.840 It was kind of like, how many times did this 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:06.679 happen to other cases? Unless Yeah, I know, unless, unless, 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:09.920 unless perhaps the killer after the fact, you got a 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:13.879 job at this place. Yeah, yeah, that's probably not, probably not, 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:16.240 but yeah, yeah, I mean that's the whole problem with DNA. 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:19.360 It's infallible as long as nobody screws up, as everybody 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:24.400 behaves in exactly. Yeah. So the inquest also found that 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:29.359 this whole like bondage website nonsense, had been sporadic and 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:32.479 isolated quote unquote. I mean, like, let's be honest, who 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:36.160 hasn't found themselves in the depth of I am not 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:40.479 searches on bondage and LS stuff myself. I mean, you 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:42.639 find you stumble across it on the web, but see it, 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:44.320 But I haven't actually gone out and looked forward. Well 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:46.800 for all we know, that's exactly it is. You click 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:48.960 on the wrong video or the wrong link, and there 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:52.080 you are get away fast. I don't I don't know 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:54.119 if this does that mean he just accidentally visited a 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:56.120 few sides or he was doing searches. No, I think 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:58.560 it was. It was sporadic and isolated. Makes me think 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:00.640 it was like every once in a while, will accidentally 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:04.239 click the link sort of thing. Not I mean, you know, 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:07.600 it's not like he was on there like googling things constantly. 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:13.199 And just to clarify why this is important, Gareth was 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:20.520 inside of a zipped and lock duffel bag, so naked naked, 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:23.360 So this is this is they're they're saying that this 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:28.480 is some sort of actor. Also, the police, the in 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:33.240 the initial investigation, the police were kind of like trying 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:37.560 to paint it as like a you know, auto erotica, 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:43.640 asphyxiation sort of bondage play, costophilia, which is the which 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:46.080 for those of you who can't make that leap, is 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:51.200 the sexual pleasure of claustrophobia, right, not clusphobia. Yeah, and 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:53.320 he to be clear, he had never searched any of 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:55.439 that stuff that was that wasn't like where he was. 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:57.359 But yeah, they were kind of trying to paint it 0:21:57.440 --> 0:21:59.840 as and I was actually just going to get into this. 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:04.600 They're kind of trying to paint him as like a yeah, 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:07.320 deviant or yeah, devian is probably the better word than 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:11.120 than the other one I was going to use sounds like, well, 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:13.440 I don't know that that's necessarily true. I mean, I 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:17.359 think would make him that makes him a pervert. Yeah. 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:19.800 So apparently there was evidence that there was like twenty 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:26.360 tho pounds worth pounds is in the current Yeah, yeah, 0:22:27.880 --> 0:22:31.960 so twenty pounds worth of women's clothing found in either 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:34.760 his flat or the flat that he was in. It's unclear. 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:38.000 And I just have already struggle with this a little 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:42.840 bit because the assumption is it's his clothes that he 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:46.600 that he was into wearing women's clothes, and you know, 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:49.240 first of all, like there's nothing really wrong with that, 0:22:49.480 --> 0:22:52.439 like anyway, like you do you well, I don't know. 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:55.280