1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,960
Speaker 1: This episode of Thinking Sideways is not brought you by

2
00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:09,119
Speaker 1: Dancing Slots. Instead, it's brought you by Bellevue. Beginning Tuesday, January,

3
00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,920
Speaker 1: w G in America premieres You're Nick's addicting mystery thriller

4
00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:17,880
Speaker 1: the new original series Bellevue starring Oscar winner Anna Paquin,

5
00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,120
Speaker 1: and it plays Annie Writer, a detective in the small

6
00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,280
Speaker 1: town of Bellevue where a transgender team has gone missing,

7
00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:27,360
Speaker 1: and he starts receiving creepy riddles and clues that could

8
00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,400
Speaker 1: be connected to the case. Critics Rave of Bellevue is original, ambitious,

9
00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,840
Speaker 1: and stands apart. Don't miss the series premiere of Bellevue Tuesday,

10
00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,320
Speaker 1: January three at ten nine Central on w G in America.

11
00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,000
Speaker 1: Go to w G in America dot com to find

12
00:00:43,000 --> 00:01:06,240
Speaker 1: the channel in your area. Hey guys, welcome to another

13
00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,160
Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast I Am Devin, joined

14
00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:14,959
Speaker 1: this week by Jill and Steve. Welcome Happy New Year.

15
00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:18,120
Speaker 1: I know a couple of weeks ago, but I know

16
00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:19,560
Speaker 1: it's a couple of weeks ago for you guys, but

17
00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:21,920
Speaker 1: for us, is the first episode of the year that

18
00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:28,920
Speaker 1: we're that we're recording. Yeah, you're giving away valuable information stopping. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Uh.

19
00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,559
Speaker 1: This week we're going to talk about a man who

20
00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,319
Speaker 1: was in a hurry to pack and accidentally locked himself

21
00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:41,720
Speaker 1: in a suitcase. Yeah, it is probably cheaper than you know,

22
00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,319
Speaker 1: I don't know buying an airplane ticket. You just check

23
00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:50,360
Speaker 1: yourself in a bag. No more jokes here, no, okay, alright?

24
00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:53,360
Speaker 1: Uh And this episode, before we get too far, was

25
00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:58,240
Speaker 1: suggested by like everyone. I'm sorry if you've emailed us seriously,

26
00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,080
Speaker 1: Like I would say, at least to fifty people have

27
00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,000
Speaker 1: emailed us this story. So I'm not going to name names.

28
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:06,920
Speaker 1: Just if you emailed us, know that you're one of

29
00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,560
Speaker 1: the special people that suggested it, and thank you so much.

30
00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,239
Speaker 1: But yeah, how you're working for love? There, just a

31
00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,480
Speaker 1: quick small ears warning. It's not really that bad, but

32
00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:18,440
Speaker 1: we are going to talk a little bit about bondage later.

33
00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,920
Speaker 1: So it's just unusual sexual practices. So if that's the

34
00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,040
Speaker 1: thing for you, turn it off. Actually, I think if

35
00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,520
Speaker 1: that's the thing for them, they wouldn't turn it off. Okay, Well,

36
00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:28,280
Speaker 1: if it's a thing you don't want your children to

37
00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,200
Speaker 1: hear about, please turn this episode off there and just

38
00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:37,880
Speaker 1: burn your iPhone smash smashing it to us. Yeah, if

39
00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:42,840
Speaker 1: it's new enough, here's the deal. On August m I

40
00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:47,359
Speaker 1: six intelligence agent Gareth Williams was found dead inside a

41
00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,600
Speaker 1: locked Duffel bag, inside a bathtub, inside a locked secret

42
00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,080
Speaker 1: service safe house. And now I know some of the

43
00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,399
Speaker 1: reporting says it's his apartment and some of it says

44
00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,920
Speaker 1: it's a safe house. I think, what's going on. We'll

45
00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,240
Speaker 1: address this a little bit in a second. I also

46
00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:04,959
Speaker 1: read it was just a government owned department. I think

47
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:09,080
Speaker 1: that's probably the most accurate what it was. It can't

48
00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:10,919
Speaker 1: be a safe house, because, oh my god, if that's

49
00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:12,880
Speaker 1: actually a safe house, and m I six needs to

50
00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,720
Speaker 1: just pack its bags and go home, go home. There

51
00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,640
Speaker 1: have been like five different investigations and in quests into

52
00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,919
Speaker 1: this death, and the findings range from probably an accident

53
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,760
Speaker 1: to definitely killed by the KGB. By the way, for

54
00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:28,280
Speaker 1: those of you who don't know, m I six stents

55
00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,959
Speaker 1: for Military Intelligence Department six, So it's a British intelligence agency.

56
00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,800
Speaker 1: I guess you didn't know this mix and I six

57
00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,720
Speaker 1: Is that what double O seven was a part of? Yeah,

58
00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:44,000
Speaker 1: so something higher or something more secretive. Yeah, so let's

59
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,400
Speaker 1: back up a little bit. Gareth was a Welsh born

60
00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:52,520
Speaker 1: scientist with a PhD. He graduated university first class at seventeen,

61
00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:54,560
Speaker 1: which is actually impressive. I had to talk to one

62
00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:56,720
Speaker 1: of our moths who lives in Britain to be like,

63
00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,480
Speaker 1: is this impressive or is that first class or first

64
00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:01,640
Speaker 1: in class? That's the same thing in Britain. I think

65
00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,520
Speaker 1: it's the same thing. It's basically like graduating magna cum

66
00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,200
Speaker 1: laude from university like an undergrad at seventeen, so it's

67
00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,920
Speaker 1: you know, it's doing your entire four years of your

68
00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,360
Speaker 1: first university experience at seventeen. So he's kind of a

69
00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,919
Speaker 1: head smart. It's too bad you met it on timely

70
00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,679
Speaker 1: and really. Yeah. He started working at the Government Communications

71
00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:27,279
Speaker 1: Headquarters h Q. Yeah, which I understand is under m

72
00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,960
Speaker 1: I six jurnsdiction or the other way around. I can't

73
00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,360
Speaker 1: remember what the what they're essentially kind of like equals.

74
00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:34,839
Speaker 1: I mean g C h Q was kind of the

75
00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,800
Speaker 1: British equivalent to our n s A, and then M

76
00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,640
Speaker 1: I six is there equivalent to our ci A and

77
00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,360
Speaker 1: M I five is their equivalent to our FBI. See

78
00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,279
Speaker 1: they were just almost it would be so much easier,

79
00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,359
Speaker 1: right come, Yeah, they all share the same MOLES six.

80
00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,840
Speaker 1: Geez No, it's it's one of those kind of confusing

81
00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,080
Speaker 1: things that you know, even the people that I know

82
00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,800
Speaker 1: who live in in the United Kingdom kind of are like,

83
00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:00,840
Speaker 1: we don't really know how we're but they're all kind

84
00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:06,719
Speaker 1: of secret e. So yeah, um, yeah, that is the point.

85
00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:13,840
Speaker 1: Gareth was a quote unquote intensely private man. Yeah, he

86
00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,599
Speaker 1: was into cycling and seems like that's about it. Also

87
00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,400
Speaker 1: like long walks in the countryside, kind of you know,

88
00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:27,680
Speaker 1: private e things, kind of introverted, solitary, solitary things. Yeah,

89
00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,280
Speaker 1: he was staying again at a safe house. There's two

90
00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,200
Speaker 1: different ways that I've seen this reported. A one is

91
00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,040
Speaker 1: that he was on his annual one month leave for

92
00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,200
Speaker 1: that year. The other is that, uh, he was on

93
00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,359
Speaker 1: like a secondary assignment with m I six and was

94
00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,960
Speaker 1: hating it. So he was due to return back to

95
00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:50,479
Speaker 1: his job at the g h Q in the midst

96
00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,679
Speaker 1: of a transfer. Yeah, so I'm not I'm not totally

97
00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,840
Speaker 1: sure which is is correct, but that's why I think

98
00:05:57,880 --> 00:05:59,560
Speaker 1: it was. To my understanding, he was going to go

99
00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,480
Speaker 1: back to g c h Q. Yeah, I mean, he

100
00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,240
Speaker 1: was due to return to g h Q in in September,

101
00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,080
Speaker 1: but whether that return was from his like annual month

102
00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:13,159
Speaker 1: long vacation or from this other assignment that he had taken.

103
00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:15,880
Speaker 1: It's I'm not totally clear, but I think he was

104
00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:17,880
Speaker 1: on this other assignment and during that time he was

105
00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:22,280
Speaker 1: living in a government apartment slash safe house. It's called

106
00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:27,480
Speaker 1: safe house, a lot that had a security door. Yeah,

107
00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:30,560
Speaker 1: I have no idea. It's hard. I mean again, it's

108
00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,680
Speaker 1: hard because this is all lots of it's classified. Wait,

109
00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,760
Speaker 1: hold on, I think I missed something here because I

110
00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,359
Speaker 1: thought he lived in that flat for like five or

111
00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,120
Speaker 1: ten years. He lived in a different flat for five

112
00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,320
Speaker 1: or ten years, not the one he was found dead in.

113
00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,719
Speaker 1: Well that's That's the thing I don't get though, is

114
00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,280
Speaker 1: that maybe I'm getting ahead again. But they found tens

115
00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,239
Speaker 1: of thousands of pounds worth of women's clothing in the flat.

116
00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:54,240
Speaker 1: Well maybe they did, maybe they didn't. That we will

117
00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:56,520
Speaker 1: talk about, okay, but yeah, which it makes it hard

118
00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,320
Speaker 1: for me to believe it. He just moved in for

119
00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,760
Speaker 1: a few weeks and moved all that crapy. So I

120
00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,599
Speaker 1: don't know what it's. It's very confusing. I haven't found

121
00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,599
Speaker 1: I'm glad also because sometimes when I say I haven't

122
00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,800
Speaker 1: found this. You guys are like, yeah, you just missed it,

123
00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,000
Speaker 1: your dummy. But I think it's kind of this nebulous thing,

124
00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,320
Speaker 1: which is I think okay, because again, he did work

125
00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,920
Speaker 1: for secret services, and it's okay for me to kind

126
00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,080
Speaker 1: of not totally understand what was going on. It is

127
00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,800
Speaker 1: my understanding that he was in a house that was

128
00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,840
Speaker 1: not his normal flat. And whether or not they found

129
00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,920
Speaker 1: whatever they found in the place where he his body

130
00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,480
Speaker 1: was found or his normal residence, that also is kind

131
00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:37,280
Speaker 1: of unclear to me. But this is a great way

132
00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:41,520
Speaker 1: to start this episode. We don't actually know what is

133
00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:43,560
Speaker 1: and I think you know, I mean, there's there's statements

134
00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,000
Speaker 1: that are made in succession that makes you think that

135
00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,000
Speaker 1: one is the other, but I I'm guessing that it's

136
00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,480
Speaker 1: just the way it's written sometimes and it's not exceptionally clear.

137
00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,760
Speaker 1: It makes you make a bunch of presumptions about the story. Yeah,

138
00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,280
Speaker 1: we're laying out we don't know what those presumptions really are.

139
00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,120
Speaker 1: That's okay. We know the important stuff. That's the important thing.

140
00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,600
Speaker 1: So really the important stuff is he was due to

141
00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:11,080
Speaker 1: return to his job at g h Q in September,

142
00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,200
Speaker 1: apparently did stay in contact with his colleagues, which is

143
00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,160
Speaker 1: another reason that I think he wasn't actually on his

144
00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,400
Speaker 1: time off. I think he was actually on a different assignment.

145
00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:24,360
Speaker 1: Because what happened was on August twenty three, he had

146
00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,360
Speaker 1: failed to check in or otherwise just his colleagues had said,

147
00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,120
Speaker 1: we haven't heard from him in a long time, so

148
00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,280
Speaker 1: they sent the local police to do a really simple

149
00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,040
Speaker 1: welfare check. And this is where things start to get.

150
00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,920
Speaker 1: To steal a word from Steve Hinky hanky, Yeah, the

151
00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,000
Speaker 1: police get no response from him, and somehow otherwise gain

152
00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,840
Speaker 1: access to his apartment, probably through the manager's key, I

153
00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,520
Speaker 1: would assume through the manager's key, but again it's oftentimes

154
00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:57,559
Speaker 1: reported as a safe house, so like, isn't a safe house?

155
00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,240
Speaker 1: And then if it is, how did they get in

156
00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,520
Speaker 1: there and handing safe house keys outside? Yeah, yeah, so

157
00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:04,880
Speaker 1: it's a little weird. But somehow or another they get

158
00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,640
Speaker 1: access to the to the apartment, again, hopefully not breaking

159
00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:10,760
Speaker 1: down the door or anything like that, because that was

160
00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,079
Speaker 1: a welfare check. Let's know what they do. Typically I

161
00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:14,720
Speaker 1: would assume that as well. But if it is a

162
00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:16,760
Speaker 1: welfare check and they're like, we think he might be dead,

163
00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,679
Speaker 1: you would probably want to break into the house, and

164
00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:21,880
Speaker 1: some you'd want to get into. I don't believe they

165
00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:26,040
Speaker 1: have the jurisdiction to just randomly break doors down fair enough. Actually,

166
00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,320
Speaker 1: there's one case I know of. Did you hear the

167
00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,920
Speaker 1: one about the baby that was crying in the apartment. Yeah,

168
00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,240
Speaker 1: this happened I don't know, five or so, five or

169
00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,200
Speaker 1: eight years ago whatever here in America. But yeah, I mean,

170
00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,959
Speaker 1: a neighbor heard baby crying this apartment and knocked in

171
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,280
Speaker 1: the door and there was no answer, no adult there,

172
00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,520
Speaker 1: and and calls the police, and the police are pounding

173
00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:47,960
Speaker 1: on the door, and and you know, mom or dad

174
00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,800
Speaker 1: don't come to the door, and so finally, you know,

175
00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:52,840
Speaker 1: the baby is still crying. So finally they kicked the

176
00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,280
Speaker 1: door and to go in, and you know, the ultimate

177
00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,240
Speaker 1: welfare check. It turns out it they had a like

178
00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:06,319
Speaker 1: they had like a minor bird or a parakeet or something.

179
00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:10,440
Speaker 1: So yeah, so they left a note for the owners

180
00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,800
Speaker 1: when they're next to the shattered door. Yeah we broke in,

181
00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:19,480
Speaker 1: but if it's missing, we didn't do anything, signed the police. Yep,

182
00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,760
Speaker 1: we were not here. Uh So, Okay, So what happens

183
00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,240
Speaker 1: is the local police gain access to the flat that

184
00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:34,760
Speaker 1: Gareth is in, we're reportedly in and find his body naked,

185
00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:39,959
Speaker 1: decomposing in a locked red north Face bag like a

186
00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:44,160
Speaker 1: Duffel bag, in his bath in the bathtub. The reason

187
00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,839
Speaker 1: this is a little hinky is because Gareth's family feels

188
00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,080
Speaker 1: strongly that the police, either intentionally, according to the family,

189
00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,480
Speaker 1: or otherwise which you know, allowing for mistakes, wiped any

190
00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:59,959
Speaker 1: and all DNA and fingerprint evidence from what was probably

191
00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,240
Speaker 1: a crime scene. Maybe not a crime scene, but that

192
00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:09,480
Speaker 1: DNA fingerprint evidence could have definitely proven you should treat

193
00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,720
Speaker 1: it like a crime scene usually, yeah, yeah, But it

194
00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,360
Speaker 1: does seem as though they didn't. The texts weren't able

195
00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,400
Speaker 1: to find any fingerprints or DNA anywhere around the bathroom

196
00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:21,560
Speaker 1: or on the outside of the Duffel bag or on

197
00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:25,199
Speaker 1: the lock or anything. And it should be noted Gareth's

198
00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,400
Speaker 1: wasn't wearing gloves. There were no gloves in the bag

199
00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,360
Speaker 1: with him, there were no gloves adjacent to him, so

200
00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,800
Speaker 1: it wasn't as though he was hiding his fingerprints. Whether

201
00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,200
Speaker 1: or not that's actually important is up to us to

202
00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,160
Speaker 1: discuss in theories. But maybe he's one of those people

203
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,680
Speaker 1: that just doesn't have any DNA, Yeah, maybe one of those.

204
00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,000
Speaker 1: DNA doesn't come off of you every time you come

205
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,800
Speaker 1: into contact with things. So no, but it does seem

206
00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:53,160
Speaker 1: like at some point in this whole procedure DNA should

207
00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,440
Speaker 1: have come off of him. At some point you would anyway,

208
00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,520
Speaker 1: They did find a little DNA on Gareth's hand that

209
00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:01,840
Speaker 1: wasn't that was not his and what we'll talk about

210
00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,880
Speaker 1: that in a second. To a key, I'm not confirmed

211
00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:06,600
Speaker 1: to be the only key, because I feel like locks

212
00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:08,560
Speaker 1: usually come with a couple of keys, but at least

213
00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,480
Speaker 1: one key, well, one key was found under Gareth's body,

214
00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,760
Speaker 1: in the snuffle bag, inside the bag under his body. Yeah,

215
00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:23,520
Speaker 1: not really true. Investigators believed that Gareth had died one

216
00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,800
Speaker 1: week prior, on August. The corner said that there were

217
00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,920
Speaker 1: no injuries to Gareth's body or really any kind of

218
00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,440
Speaker 1: sign of what caused his death. His body had no

219
00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,320
Speaker 1: drugs or alcohol and there in its system, So wasn't

220
00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:44,200
Speaker 1: that His official cause of death was ruled suspicious and unexplained.

221
00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,880
Speaker 1: He's pretty decomposed when they got him, yeah, which was

222
00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:52,800
Speaker 1: weird for having only been a week August August, and

223
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,800
Speaker 1: it's a locked room, it's very hot. The heat was

224
00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:59,760
Speaker 1: turned on in his apartment. So again little little things

225
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,960
Speaker 1: that make this case a little weird and suspicious in

226
00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,079
Speaker 1: what may seem like a cover up of their own

227
00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:12,079
Speaker 1: um hyinees. The Metropolitan Police um that were at that

228
00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,840
Speaker 1: time investigators said, oh, and by the way, Mr Williams

229
00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,199
Speaker 1: looked at a whole lot of bondage stuff, weird websites

230
00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,880
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. My words not there, it's just

231
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,319
Speaker 1: to be clear. So that investigation did conclude that Gareth

232
00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,319
Speaker 1: had locked himself in the bag, even though they concluded

233
00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,880
Speaker 1: that it was impossible for him to have locked himself

234
00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:38,960
Speaker 1: in the bag. They had they had an investigator who tried,

235
00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,360
Speaker 1: I think they had two different investigators who tried over

236
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:45,000
Speaker 1: four hundred times to lock themselves in a bag just

237
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,560
Speaker 1: exactly the same kind of north Face bag, and they

238
00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:49,640
Speaker 1: couldn't do it. So they were like, listen, it's impossible

239
00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,440
Speaker 1: he could not have done it. But also we'll talk

240
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,439
Speaker 1: about that, but this is what they found. This is

241
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,720
Speaker 1: what they found in two thousand and ten. They were like, listen,

242
00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,800
Speaker 1: it's impossible, but he did it. Impossible, dream that makes sense.

243
00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:05,040
Speaker 1: A few years later, the corner decided to open up

244
00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,800
Speaker 1: an inquest of her own their own. It was really hurt.

245
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,240
Speaker 1: It was a woman who's the corner, but it was

246
00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,640
Speaker 1: her office. Mostly foreigners in Britain have a little more

247
00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:16,800
Speaker 1: power than corners share in the US. I think that's true,

248
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,320
Speaker 1: partially because the corner kind of felt like she wasn't

249
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,200
Speaker 1: totally satisfied, but also because there was a request from

250
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,480
Speaker 1: the Williams family via their lawyer, meaning they were screaming

251
00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:32,000
Speaker 1: a lot for attention. They attention, they were not attention

252
00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:34,800
Speaker 1: to the case, to not have it just swept out

253
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,560
Speaker 1: of the run. They were not satisfied with the findings

254
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:43,840
Speaker 1: of that initial investigation. There were some discrepancies. Um the

255
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,080
Speaker 1: family claimed that someone had broken in and stolen things

256
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,880
Speaker 1: and that that is how Gareth was killed, that he

257
00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:54,920
Speaker 1: was killed in the process of this kind of picture

258
00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,400
Speaker 1: of burglar killing me. If he breaks into my house

259
00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:00,320
Speaker 1: me neither. You know. Maybe he said, hey and get

260
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,080
Speaker 1: in the bag. Here's here's a key. In twenty minutes,

261
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,640
Speaker 1: you can unlock yourself. I don't know. I mean, I agree,

262
00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,120
Speaker 1: it's it's silly, but you know, there you go. There

263
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,840
Speaker 1: were no signs of fourth century quote there's this is

264
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,360
Speaker 1: a quote, right quote. No signs of fourth century unquote,

265
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:21,800
Speaker 1: but the Metro police did take all of the locked

266
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,760
Speaker 1: stores and hinges from his apartment, every door in the apartment,

267
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,760
Speaker 1: in the front door, it was definitely the front door

268
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:30,520
Speaker 1: at the very least, and I believe it was the

269
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,400
Speaker 1: rest of the doors as well. I'm guessing it's at

270
00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,280
Speaker 1: least the front and the bathroom doors. Yeah, so it

271
00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,040
Speaker 1: would have been hard for anybody to prove really anything

272
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,040
Speaker 1: based on the fact that they had been removed, which

273
00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:49,040
Speaker 1: again is this weird thing away as they theoretically they

274
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,800
Speaker 1: were taking them somewhere to examine them and then they

275
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,920
Speaker 1: never returned them. Yeah, so you know, poor landlords who

276
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,840
Speaker 1: had to replace all the doors. Can you imagine, I mean,

277
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,760
Speaker 1: I imagine that the British police must do this as

278
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:06,000
Speaker 1: a semi regular practice. And how many doors they must

279
00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,680
Speaker 1: have in storage somewhere. They probably got like a sort

280
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,080
Speaker 1: of a rebuilding kind of second hand rebuilding materials store

281
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,760
Speaker 1: going on. Oh see, I figured it must actually be

282
00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,440
Speaker 1: where the basis of monsters inc. Is that because it's

283
00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:26,120
Speaker 1: nothing but doors, you mean the basement of yes hardware. Yeah,

284
00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,280
Speaker 1: it's just weird windows and doors, doors and doors and

285
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,400
Speaker 1: doors and none of them go anywhere. Yes, why it is.

286
00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,280
Speaker 1: I mean, it's good of the police show up and

287
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,480
Speaker 1: it's like Fred, wats take all the doors in the

288
00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,680
Speaker 1: windows and the life fixtures and all the switch plates.

289
00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:41,480
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the heating grates. Yeah, they they've all got

290
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,720
Speaker 1: to go, all of them. They're all They're really all

291
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:45,800
Speaker 1: important in the case. Yeah, if you want them back,

292
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:47,320
Speaker 1: you can come down to our store and buy them.

293
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,560
Speaker 1: We'll give them to you for not Yeah, visit us

294
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,000
Speaker 1: next door to the binman. Yeah. So, like I said,

295
00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,440
Speaker 1: it would be. I don't know how the police gained

296
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,880
Speaker 1: access to his apartment initially. Again, I would assume that

297
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,199
Speaker 1: it was a landlord key, but we don't know that

298
00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:10,199
Speaker 1: for sure. We don't know how secure the flat was

299
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,160
Speaker 1: to begin with, if it was actually like a safe

300
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,440
Speaker 1: house caliber flat, or if it was just a government

301
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,800
Speaker 1: owned place or what So. Do either of you remember

302
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,080
Speaker 1: what floor that was the top floor? But on that street,

303
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,439
Speaker 1: the buildings are three and four stories high for the

304
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,719
Speaker 1: most player. Okay, so if it's the top floor then okay,

305
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,520
Speaker 1: I mean it depends. I mean it's not ground level, right,

306
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,280
Speaker 1: That's that's really when I was getting at Yeah, I

307
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:36,280
Speaker 1: couldn't resist getting on street view and looking at and

308
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,600
Speaker 1: there's one modern artly building that's about five or six

309
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,360
Speaker 1: stories tall, and the rest of them are about three

310
00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:46,200
Speaker 1: stories tall. Yeah. As as mentioned before, there was also

311
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,520
Speaker 1: some foreign DNA found on one of Garth's hands Gareth

312
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:54,399
Speaker 1: excuse me, Gareth's hands. In America, we say Garth, Uh,

313
00:17:55,480 --> 00:18:00,640
Speaker 1: it's true. But it turned out that it was one

314
00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:05,840
Speaker 1: of the forensic investigators touched his hand without a glove on,

315
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,040
Speaker 1: which is kind of gross. And you think about it

316
00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,120
Speaker 1: was a week old, brotten corpse. I'm not going to

317
00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,879
Speaker 1: touch it with that close. I'm not either, But like, also,

318
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,879
Speaker 1: you're an investigator, dude, like you were forensic investigators. What

319
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,520
Speaker 1: are you doing? But what are you doing touching a

320
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,160
Speaker 1: crime scene body that you just found in a duffle bag?

321
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,160
Speaker 1: Something as simple as having moved the body, taken off

322
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:32,879
Speaker 1: the gloves and turned and just brushed the hand without

323
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,919
Speaker 1: realizing it could be as as casual contact as that.

324
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,520
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be. It could have been like,

325
00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:40,160
Speaker 1: you know, he ends up the bag and his hand

326
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,320
Speaker 1: comes popping out and he couldn't avoid it. He touched

327
00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:47,640
Speaker 1: you know it just yeah, yeah, really, just great investigative work.

328
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:49,680
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the thing. Right, is it's just little

329
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,000
Speaker 1: things like that kind of speak of this like that's

330
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:56,360
Speaker 1: why DNA evidence should not be considered, you know, so

331
00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,560
Speaker 1: as this positive as a lot of people. Well, so

332
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,960
Speaker 1: the trick was that, um, this this agency, because it

333
00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,000
Speaker 1: wasn't actually the police, it was this outside agency that

334
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,920
Speaker 1: processed all the forensic stuff, and they, you know, for

335
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:14,040
Speaker 1: exactly these reasons, have all of their employees and that

336
00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:19,199
Speaker 1: technicians DNA profiles on file and they run that's one

337
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 1: of the first things they do is when they find

338
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:22,919
Speaker 1: foreign DNA on a body, they run it against all

339
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,040
Speaker 1: their employees and then they run it against you know,

340
00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:27,919
Speaker 1: known offenders or anything like that. So they ran it

341
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:32,480
Speaker 1: against their employees. But somehow this employee their number had

342
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,720
Speaker 1: been entered wrong or something like that. So they've been

343
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,280
Speaker 1: going like it would think it was three or four

344
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,840
Speaker 1: years later that this was happening that the coroner's inquest was.

345
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:43,760
Speaker 1: I didn't realize it was. It was like three or

346
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:45,960
Speaker 1: four years later. They were like, Okay, but this foreign

347
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,600
Speaker 1: DNA is obviously the best chance. The family was like,

348
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,840
Speaker 1: this is the best hope we have to figure out

349
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,080
Speaker 1: what happened to our dear son. And then they realized

350
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,360
Speaker 1: somebody entered their I D number and inverted to digits. Yes,

351
00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,800
Speaker 1: that's how simple it was. On such a high profile.

352
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,840
Speaker 1: It was kind of like, how many times did this

353
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,679
Speaker 1: happen to other cases? Unless Yeah, I know, unless, unless,

354
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,920
Speaker 1: unless perhaps the killer after the fact, you got a

355
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,879
Speaker 1: job at this place. Yeah, yeah, that's probably not, probably not,

356
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,240
Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, I mean that's the whole problem with DNA.

357
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,360
Speaker 1: It's infallible as long as nobody screws up, as everybody

358
00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:24,400
Speaker 1: behaves in exactly. Yeah. So the inquest also found that

359
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:29,359
Speaker 1: this whole like bondage website nonsense, had been sporadic and

360
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,479
Speaker 1: isolated quote unquote. I mean, like, let's be honest, who

361
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:36,160
Speaker 1: hasn't found themselves in the depth of I am not

362
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,479
Speaker 1: searches on bondage and LS stuff myself. I mean, you

363
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,639
Speaker 1: find you stumble across it on the web, but see it,

364
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:44,320
Speaker 1: But I haven't actually gone out and looked forward. Well

365
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,800
Speaker 1: for all we know, that's exactly it is. You click

366
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:48,960
Speaker 1: on the wrong video or the wrong link, and there

367
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 1: you are get away fast. I don't I don't know

368
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,119
Speaker 1: if this does that mean he just accidentally visited a

369
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,120
Speaker 1: few sides or he was doing searches. No, I think

370
00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 1: it was. It was sporadic and isolated. Makes me think

371
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,640
Speaker 1: it was like every once in a while, will accidentally

372
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,239
Speaker 1: click the link sort of thing. Not I mean, you know,

373
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,600
Speaker 1: it's not like he was on there like googling things constantly.

374
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:13,199
Speaker 1: And just to clarify why this is important, Gareth was

375
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:20,520
Speaker 1: inside of a zipped and lock duffel bag, so naked naked,

376
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,360
Speaker 1: So this is this is they're they're saying that this

377
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:28,480
Speaker 1: is some sort of actor. Also, the police, the in

378
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:33,240
Speaker 1: the initial investigation, the police were kind of like trying

379
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:37,560
Speaker 1: to paint it as like a you know, auto erotica,

380
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:43,640
Speaker 1: asphyxiation sort of bondage play, costophilia, which is the which

381
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 1: for those of you who can't make that leap, is

382
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:51,200
Speaker 1: the sexual pleasure of claustrophobia, right, not clusphobia. Yeah, and

383
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 1: he to be clear, he had never searched any of

384
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,439
Speaker 1: that stuff that was that wasn't like where he was.

385
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,359
Speaker 1: But yeah, they were kind of trying to paint it

386
00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 1: as and I was actually just going to get into this.

387
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 1: They're kind of trying to paint him as like a yeah,

388
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 1: deviant or yeah, devian is probably the better word than

389
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:11,120
Speaker 1: than the other one I was going to use sounds like, well,

390
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,440
Speaker 1: I don't know that that's necessarily true. I mean, I

391
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,359
Speaker 1: think would make him that makes him a pervert. Yeah.

392
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 1: So apparently there was evidence that there was like twenty

393
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:26,360
Speaker 1: tho pounds worth pounds is in the current Yeah, yeah,

394
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,960
Speaker 1: so twenty pounds worth of women's clothing found in either

395
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: his flat or the flat that he was in. It's unclear.

396
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 1: And I just have already struggle with this a little

397
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 1: bit because the assumption is it's his clothes that he

398
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 1: that he was into wearing women's clothes, and you know,

399
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 1: first of all, like there's nothing really wrong with that,

400
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,439
Speaker 1: like anyway, like you do you well, I don't know.

401
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 1: So that was the thing, is you know he they well,

402
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 1: I don't know that important. I know, I agree, I

403
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 1: don't know. He was kind of a small all our guys,

404
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 1: so yeah, so it could have been for like a larger,

405
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 1: slightly larger woman. He apparently some shop people kind of

406
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 1: in the area said, yeah, I remember that guy. He

407
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 1: said he was buying it for his girlfriend. It seemed

408
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 1: like it was it was like normal the normal range

409
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,919
Speaker 1: of a woman's clothing, so right, or like you know,

410
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 1: super tall or like it didn't. Yeah, I mean, you know,

411
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 1: it seems like that was just it was fine, it

412
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 1: was normal. I wasn't thinking it was for him or

413
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 1: anything like that. Yeah. So I mean, which, like, let's

414
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 1: be honest, please do um um. But I mean, it's

415
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: it's just so tricky to me because they are I mean,

416
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: it really feels like they're trying to like smear him almost,

417
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 1: like look at this weird sexual deviant who like had

418
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 1: all these women's clothes, which we don't know if they

419
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,919
Speaker 1: were for him or not. But like also he all

420
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,360
Speaker 1: sometimes every once in a while like searched a bondage

421
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,239
Speaker 1: thing and oh my god, he must have been so

422
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,920
Speaker 1: depraved that he would lock himself in this duffle bag,

423
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 1: did a company apartment. Maybe we know that he bought

424
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 1: all of those clothes. As far as I know, there's

425
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,239
Speaker 1: nothing that says that there was receipt after receipt on

426
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 1: his bank account from ladies lingerie and dress stores and

427
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 1: whatever kind of apparel stores. Well, first of all, he

428
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 1: could have paid cash. But second of all, yeah, it

429
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: could have been first girlfriend, it could have been for

430
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: his girlfriend, or it could have I mean, we don't

431
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 1: know if he had a girlfriend or not. It could

432
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 1: have been for not, I mean, it could have who

433
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: knows what it could have been. He was thinking about

434
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,439
Speaker 1: opening up a fashion business or something like, maybe he

435
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: was reselling it for more money on the internet. He

436
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: had them, I mean, but he actually apparently had taken

437
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 1: some classes in fashion design. Yeah, and so maybe he

438
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: actually had an interest in starting some sort of clothing

439
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: on Maybe he did. I mean, I I just think

440
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: I don't think it's outrageous so that they talked about

441
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 1: his predilection for women's clothes and for bondage and stuff

442
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: like that, because again, otherwise, how do you explain the

443
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 1: fact that he's in a freaking bag locked in because

444
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 1: it had been it had to have been foul play, right,

445
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: I mean, that's exactly it. Right? Is that either he

446
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: somehow well we're kind of delving into theories, but that's okay,

447
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 1: give the Yeah. I mean, either he he was a

448
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 1: like quote unquote deviant, which again, like I really just

449
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: don't think this behavior is like that weird anyway. But

450
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: either he was like quote unquote deviant, I don't think

451
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 1: it's that weird, Like, okay, So, like you, I think

452
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: it's pretty damn weird. But again, you had a giant

453
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 1: bag in your in your house once and I watched

454
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: you get into it, saw me put my cat into

455
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 1: it or something. But no, no, no, no, it was

456
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,679
Speaker 1: a dry bag that was like six ft tall, and

457
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 1: you got into it. You did it, you followed suit. Okay,

458
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: either way, I mean, I think you're just free. I

459
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 1: agree that zipping locking yourself into a bag is weird.

460
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 1: I disagree that like the idea that you might be

461
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 1: into women's clothes or whatever, that's not that weird in

462
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: the grand scheme of things. But it doesn't it certainly

463
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: doesn't make you like prone to yourself on accident. But so,

464
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: either he does this quote unquote deviant behavior or he

465
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 1: was murdered, Like, those are the two options, right, And

466
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: so if that's a really weird way to kill somebody, right,

467
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,160
Speaker 1: But if he was murdered, then the police really did

468
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: a bad job of their job in the initial investigation,

469
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 1: in the preservation of a crime scene. So right. So,

470
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: but so I think that that was kind of one

471
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: of the reasons behind them making a big deal of

472
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: all this stuff, because it made it so much easier

473
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 1: for them to say he was super weird and locked

474
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: himself into a bag, and that's why he died, instead

475
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,479
Speaker 1: of saying right, instead of saying, we accidentally got like

476
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,719
Speaker 1: trampled all over this thing and lost all of the

477
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: evidence that might have been around. So okay, okay, So

478
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: that's like a big old okay anyway, And like I said,

479
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: m I six even agrees that this whole idea of

480
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: you're you're free to live your private life how you

481
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: want to live your private life, as long as you're

482
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: not breaking the law, as long as you're not hurting anyone,

483
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: as long as you can't be blackmailed for it. I

484
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 1: mean right, well, but I mean even then, you know,

485
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 1: what they were saying was listen, even if he was

486
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 1: into bondage, even if he was into wearing women's clothes,

487
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: that's fine, we don't really care. It didn't mean he

488
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: couldn't do his job. He was good at his job,

489
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 1: and that's all that matter. Yeah, I mean, a field agent,

490
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: as far as I knew, you know, in the secret services,

491
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 1: ours as well as theirs. If you have any really

492
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: dirty little secrets like that, it's okay, but you have

493
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: to tell your family and friends. If you're gay, you

494
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 1: have to come out right because otherwise you could be blackmailed.

495
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: So probably the same thing here. You probably had to

496
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 1: tell his parents, Hey, I'm into women's clothing sometimes I

497
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: like to get handcuffed in my bed. His parents didn't

498
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: seem to have. They were like, okay, but stop making

499
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 1: a big deal of it, like you were diverting from

500
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 1: what's going on here, you know. And so it just

501
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 1: makes me think that either it was his clothes and

502
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: everybody was like, okay, calm down, or they weren't and

503
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: everyone was like okay, calmed down. Like I don't know,

504
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: I think the the clothing thing is this big weird

505
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: thing that I just think it's relevant, but only only

506
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: mildly mild, like the minimal Yeah, anyway, I mean to me,

507
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 1: it's it's not so much that they had women's clothes

508
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 1: as the fact that he added fifteen pounds worth of clothes.

509
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: Yeah that's a lot. Thats fair enough of any kind

510
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: of clothes. Yeah, I mean seriously, I mean I will

511
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: never own that man, even if I win the lottery.

512
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: I'm not going to have that much clothing, even because

513
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: our podcast listeners are just filling up your banks. Uh.

514
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: So this the corners in quest to look back to

515
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: what we were talking about. Originally did conclude and they

516
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: said they did not think it was a suicide. They

517
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: thought it was mysterious and probably had foul play involved,

518
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: but they didn't really know what kind. So in response

519
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: to this in quest, the Metro Police reopened their case

520
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: because they were like, wait, no, what and I guess

521
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: they're kind of awful or something, and they really just decided, yeah,

522
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: Gareth killed himself in the bag and that was it.

523
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: That he had locked himself in the bag and then

524
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: accidentally died because of all of the carbon dioxide that

525
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 1: had built up in the two minutes or so it

526
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: would take. They basically concluded that it would only take

527
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: two or three minutes for the amount of carbon dioxide

528
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: in the bag to reach lethal levels. I don't know

529
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 1: how they determine that though. It was like maybe, I

530
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: mean in a space that's maybe they said, Okay, this

531
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: this bag is like three cubic feet or five cubick

532
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: fee something like that. Okay, so it's like two ft

533
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: by two ft by three and a half ft longer. Yeah,

534
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: and so something else to really consider here is that

535
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: north Face bags are usually like leather resistant, so itsically

536
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: like that rubbery kind of yeah, so it's not as

537
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: though there'd be a lot of air flow in between.

538
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: But still they're not totally airtight, so that their conclusion

539
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: about But yeah, the conclusion about that would have been like, okay,

540
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: based on this about of space, this is how long

541
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: it would take them to x this much CEO two

542
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,959
Speaker 1: and burn up that much oxygen. But that doesn't take

543
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: into account that there's air flow going through you know,

544
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: little holes and the zippers and stuff like that. I

545
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: don't think it's enough to negate. That's why I think

546
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 1: it was the two to three minutes, not just well,

547
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: and that doesn't mean that you didn't accidentally die or

548
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: kill himself. It just means that it took longer than

549
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: they said. They said it kind of taken as little

550
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: as two minutes, but really if it took twenty minutes

551
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: or thirty minutes, so what you know, I mean, well,

552
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: then you got inside and fell asleep. So let's yeah,

553
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: we'll just pause on that for two seconds because that

554
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: really feeds into the first theory. So we'll just pause

555
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: on that really quickly. Are we going to talk about

556
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 1: the other victim in this the reputation of north Face

557
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: because you know, they freaking hate this story. I'm sure

558
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: they did. The fact that it comes up every time, Yeah,

559
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: why did we put our logos so big on that

560
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: every show, every every article you see they've got a

561
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: big old north Face bag there, I know. Yeah, placement

562
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: is what it is. Yeah, you know they found him.

563
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: Actually it's some generic bag and then there there there

564
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: there people went in there and then told the police, Hey,

565
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: it was in this bag. Yeah, because it's so raw

566
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: to resistant, an air tight that you could die in

567
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: it is that good? It's great. It's great advertising too,

568
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: because you know sometimes people want to buy a large

569
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: bag to stuff a body end it's leak resistant. Yeah.

570
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: So okay, after all of this, we're um, we're gonna

571
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: talk about theories. But first let's take a break. You

572
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: run like there's a wild animal chasing you. You jump

573
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: up and down like the ground is hot lava. You

574
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: pedal as if you're capable of generating all of the

575
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: world's electricity. You lift heavy things like well, like they're

576
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: heavy things. And why do you do all of this?

577
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: To keep yourself healthy and fit? And what you really

578
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: want is to get the most out of your workout,

579
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: and that's where I Fit Nourish comes in. It can

580
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: be harder than ever to ensure that you're getting all

581
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: of the nutrients that you need, and that's why there's

582
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: I Fit Nourish, a customized proteins INNK that's jam packed

583
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: with all the essential nutrients you need. I Fit nourishes

584
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: unlike any other nutritional shake. It allows you to personalize

585
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: your mix while delivering the highest quality of fruits, veggies

586
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: and proteins plus cential vitamins and minerals. And since I

587
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: Fit Nourish is passionate and picky about their ingredients, there's

588
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: no artificial flavors, no added colors, no preservatives, and no fillers. Ever.

589
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: I Fit Nourished focuses on the basics of human nutrition,

590
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: so every single ingredient in your formula is included for

591
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: a reason and backed with extensive research. And don't worry,

592
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: their flavors have been approved by a panel of taste

593
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: judges and are completely delicious. Ready to simplify your life,

594
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: go to I fit Nourished dot com slash sideways for

595
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: a free fourteen serving bag of I Fit Nourish mix

596
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: and a shaker bottle. It's hassle free and a convenient.

597
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: That's I Fit nourished dot com forward slash sideways to

598
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: create your unique mix today, because getting fit is a

599
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: lot like playing games when you were five years old. Okay,

600
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: but for all, let's talk about theories. Theory number one is,

601
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: as Joe and I were just kind of talking about

602
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: totally leaving Steve out of this episode, Sorry Steve, uh,

603
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: that he could have done it? Yeah? Could? I mean,

604
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: I don't think like twenty minutes. I think if he

605
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: did accidentally suffocate in the bag, it would have had

606
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: to have been more quickly than twenty minutes. I mean,

607
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: because he could have fallen asleep and didn't look particularly

608
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: like it would have been comfortable, but it might have

609
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: been for him. It was like, you know, I got

610
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,479
Speaker 1: myself all zip locked in this bag and and this

611
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: is so nice. I feel like I'm back in my

612
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: mother's womb and I'm just gonna just go to sleep.

613
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: And he never woke up. You know, maybe that's you know,

614
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,239
Speaker 1: but obviously he didn't. He didn't smother to death like

615
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: right away. Yeah. Most typically people that are in so

616
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: kind of tight quarters that eventually run out of oxygen.

617
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: It doesn't happen quickly. No, Thankfully they tend to pass

618
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 1: out part way through so that they don't experience any

619
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: sheer terror of being locked in a teeny box. But yeah,

620
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: it didn't seem to be all that opposed to it, really,

621
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: because frankly, if he had been opposed to it, I

622
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 1: don't see any way you could shove a guy into

623
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:25,359
Speaker 1: a bag like that. Agreed, So this is kind of

624
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: that unless it was unconscious, then it would be tough.

625
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 1: It would be tough. We'll talk about that a little

626
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 1: bit more in a minute. Okay, I don't know how

627
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: you got these ordered this. This he did it to

628
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 1: himself theory is kind of the like, well, we don't

629
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: really know. So there's no evidence to suggest that it

630
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: was a murder. So because why the hell would murder

631
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 1: stuff them in a bag? Yeah, thinking on that as

632
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: a murder of crandom in a bag to take a

633
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 1: take the body elsewhere at some later point, Well, I

634
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: just forgot to go back and get the bag. I

635
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: don't want you to trample all over my awesome theory,

636
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 1: so we'll just pause that for a minute. I mean,

637
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: he could he physically could have locked himself in the bag.

638
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 1: Despite that initial in quest of like saying we tried

639
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: four hundred times and we couldn't do it. I'm like

640
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: pretty sure that what happened there is that the people

641
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: who are supposed to be trying to lock themselves in

642
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: the bag went out for like five beers and came

643
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: back and they were like, we tried, I don't know

644
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: how long does it take to try? Um, we were

645
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: gone for five hours, four hundred times. We tried four

646
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 1: hundred times. I couldn't do it. We just couldn't do it. No,

647
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: I think I think the problem is is that they

648
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 1: tried to do it the same way over and over

649
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: and over with very minor variations in there, which is

650
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 1: crazy technique. So we all in this room have watched

651
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: I think maybe too at least hopefully you guys have

652
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: watched both of the videos that um. And one of

653
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 1: them is with a woman who looks like she's about

654
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: my son. She's a little she's like three inches smaller

655
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: than Gareth. And then there's a one with a guy

656
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: who's almost the exact same size as Gareth was, And

657
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 1: I do believe that that three inches is really important

658
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: in this sort of situation. The guy. The guy also

659
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: had no trouble getting into that. Well, it took him

660
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: a little longer than it took her. Yes, she, yes,

661
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,439
Speaker 1: she did go ahead. I was surprised. I actually, well, again,

662
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: that's that three inches. I think it helps a lot.

663
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: It'd probably be even easier for me because I'm a

664
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: you know, a couple three inches shorter than her, but

665
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: very convenient because I have a bag right now here,

666
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: you know. But it's high classes. The whole reason that

667
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 1: I bring this whole thing up is because the way

668
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 1: they did it is absolutely the way I would try it.

669
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,959
Speaker 1: I can't even like fathom a different way of trying

670
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,399
Speaker 1: to lock yourself in a bag. I don't I don't

671
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 1: understand how these other guys were trying it. So are

672
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 1: you talking about their method of folding themselves in or

673
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: the method of sealing the bag? Both? I mean, like

674
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: well described real real quick. Explain to people how that

675
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 1: went down, because you we've all seen it, but people

676
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,839
Speaker 1: who are listening haven't. And one of the links we're

677
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 1: going to post is going to be to one of

678
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,439
Speaker 1: these So if you want to check that out, well,

679
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: it's going to be to the man, because I think

680
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: it's a more accurate representation of probably what it would

681
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: have looked like but fair enough. Um, what happens is

682
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: is they've got this big north face. It's kind of

683
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: like a Duffel bag, but it's not really like a

684
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: Duffel bag. I usually think of as being like this

685
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 1: long tube with two like round and caps, you know,

686
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: like an army bag. This is kind of like a backpack.

687
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: They call it a hold all it's I mean, it's

688
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 1: a little relevant. Um. And then it's got a zipper

689
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: that is goes on three sides instead of like one

690
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: down the very middle of it, right, so it like

691
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: makes a kind of like a big yeah. So what

692
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: happens is you can lay it down and kind of

693
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: pop it up because it's that rubbery material so it

694
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 1: will hold its shape, and you open the top part

695
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: and you kind of just like fold yourself in. You

696
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: you kind of just stick yourself in the fetal position

697
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 1: with your back towards the part where there's no zipper's part.

698
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,919
Speaker 1: That's the easy part. And then you've got the lock

699
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 1: hooked on one of the zippers and you can just

700
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: reach out and pull that, you know, half away out

701
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: and clarify to people because people may not get this.

702
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: I didn't get this at first, the lock. If you

703
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 1: look at some zippers, they have a ring built into

704
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: the nose of the zipper buckle, not the pull tab.

705
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: He didn't lock the pull tabs. There's he put those

706
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: two rings together and was able to thread the half

707
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: of the lock through that. And theory they all they

708
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: said is the bag was locked. I don't did he

709
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: actually get him through those those little rings. I have

710
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: no idea. The thing that I read, yes, because they

711
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 1: talked about how they figured out how he must have

712
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: done it, because there's a method that thieves used to

713
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:47,879
Speaker 1: foil baggage security. Yeah, so either way you you can

714
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: you can just like you know, sit up in your

715
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 1: little field position and pull from the bottom and pull

716
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 1: about halfway up, and then you just lay back down

717
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: and you can the tab. The pull tabs are pretty

718
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 1: hefty and long, and you just kind of like reach

719
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 1: and you pull around and then you have to leave

720
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: a little hole. But that's where that kind of the

721
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: either the long pole tabs or the additional ring comes

722
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 1: in handy, because you can leave a good two inches

723
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 1: maybe three inches between where the zippers would close and

724
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: as long as you've got your lock open already hooked

725
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: on one you just kind of like finagle it. And

726
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 1: this is again why I think the woman it was

727
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: easier for her because she had smaller fingers, So it's

728
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: a little easier, but just kind of and to use

729
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: your little little pincer fingers and just it's not easy. No,

730
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: it's not, certainly, And you have to be dedicated to

731
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: actually locking yourself in, right, So that's kind of might

732
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: have some practice too, right, But that is kind of

733
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: that weird part right where it's like, even if you

734
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: are into being in these enclosed spaces, why are you locking?

735
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: Like why the part is weird, But that he was

736
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: able to get the two ends of the zippers together

737
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 1: and still have enough slack in the zipper line to

738
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 1: almost create a you know, two rings of figure eight

739
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: to get his hand through those two. That is the

740
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 1: amazing part because he if he's in that fetal position

741
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,240
Speaker 1: as you describe, it means that he must have really

742
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: you know, pulled his head towards his knees to compress

743
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 1: that bag as much as possible in that direction to

744
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: gain enough slack, right like that, that is an amazing

745
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 1: amount of work and commitment to lock this itty bitty

746
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 1: little lock it particularly have those baggage locks, and they're

747
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: kind of a bear to lock, yeah, even when you're

748
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: on the outside. Yeah, So that's kind of and that's

749
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,240
Speaker 1: where I think that three inches comes in really handy.

750
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,439
Speaker 1: When you know, she was threnches, she had the little

751
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 1: up fingers and and she had just that extra couple

752
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: inches of slack is so helpful when you're getting the

753
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 1: lock done. I mean, that guy, he didn't mean he

754
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 1: gave up pretty quickly. He the woman actually had it

755
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: took her longer. It took her quite a long time

756
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: to get that locked up, but she finally succeeded. She did,

757
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: whereas the guy gave up kind of quickly, I thought,

758
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: which is okay, I feel okay about what you say.

759
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: I would have gotten frustrated and stopped too. One piece

760
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: of evidence that was brought up in that he did

761
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: this kind of thing was that Um, the landlords of

762
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 1: Garret had been his landlords for like ten fifteen years,

763
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: you know, in his normal flat. Um said that years ago,

764
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,919
Speaker 1: an unspecified amount of years ago, they were awoken by

765
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 1: Gareth yelling, and finally, you know, we're so tired of

766
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: him yelling that they went upstairs to his apartment and

767
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:51,240
Speaker 1: over I thought it was the apartment that he was renting.

768
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: I thought it was an apartment too, but I could

769
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 1: be wrong. Okay, the way it was described, I got

770
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 1: the impression he was renting a room, but not in apartment.

771
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 1: I thought it was. Anyway, they went in and they

772
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: found him tied to the bed, and they told him

773
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: to shut up and go back to sleep, and they

774
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: went back to sleep. Yeah. No, they helped him, and

775
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: he said, I was just practicing. I was just practicing.

776
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: I promised to never do it again, And as far

777
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 1: as we know, he never did it again. I mean,

778
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: it sounds like he never got stuck tied to the

779
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 1: bed again, so he was able to undo it if

780
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,800
Speaker 1: he did. Maybe he was. He was able to escape

781
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: the next time, I guess, you know. For me, I

782
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: could kind of see the argument of Okay. So one

783
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 1: of the things we kind of glossed over was Gareth

784
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: was going to work for m I six. He was

785
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: working for m I six but actually teach you how

786
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 1: to get out of it. Well, but he hated so

787
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: he hated working for m I six. He said it

788
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 1: was like this, like total like showman ship, my horse

789
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 1: is bigger than yours, kind of like broy game. He

790
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: hated it is bigger than yours. I know what you mean,

791
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 1: but that's a funny way to see. Um. But you know,

792
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 1: my rs faster than yours. I don't know, my watch

793
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 1: is more expensive. Like it was just one upsmanship and

794
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 1: he really just hated it. Um but Mike cue is

795
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:09,919
Speaker 1: an upper case and yours is a lower. Yeah, maybe

796
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: I don't really so really what the whole thing that

797
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,399
Speaker 1: was going on there was really what I was kind

798
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 1: of thinking about was that like maybe he because he

799
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 1: seems to want he'd just been cleared to go on

800
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: active duty, even though that's what m I six was,

801
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: And it turned out like kind of field work okay,

802
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,760
Speaker 1: so not analyzing stuff in the office, but he seemed

803
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,839
Speaker 1: to not really like it. But regardless, I did kind

804
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 1: of get this idea that maybe he was trying to

805
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 1: be a real spy and like had seen you know,

806
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: in like a Bond movie or some like weird m

807
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 1: I six training something that like, hey, maybe you'll be

808
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 1: locked in a bag and you need to figure out

809
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: how to escape. So he was just practicing an accidentally

810
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 1: killed himself. But it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't

811
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 1: locking yourself into bag under your own will power. Yeah,

812
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 1: makes no sense. I agree. I cannot come with any

813
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 1: idea of all that. Logically, that's why. Logically, that's why

814
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 1: the sexual sort of deviancy angle is the most realistic

815
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: to me, because as a spy in training, there's no

816
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: reason to do that. If you get caught by the

817
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 1: Soviets safe for example, you know, they're not going to

818
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 1: put you in a bag or tie you up in

819
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: some weird thing. They just put you in a bag.

820
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: You're alive, yeah, probably, yeah, good point. Yeah, They're just

821
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: going to toss you a cell and then trade you

822
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: back at first opportunity for another one of theirs, or

823
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: torture you until you reveal all of the secrets that

824
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 1: you know, because he might have known some secrets for

825
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: so they're not going to put you in a bag.

826
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 1: But you know, so I can only really see the

827
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 1: sexual angle of this whole thing, right. But on the

828
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 1: other hand, I feel like that's such a like cop out,

829
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 1: you know that it's so easy for the Metro police

830
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: too have been like, well, he dressed in woman's clothes

831
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 1: and he was a total deviant and he was like

832
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: this weird sex guy, and don't and so it made

833
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 1: it easier leads to weird truth. No, well, I think

834
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 1: that the sense I kind of get is that it

835
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 1: was almost this like smear campaign because they think as

836
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:18,280
Speaker 1: a general, well in general, I think the it's easier

837
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 1: for the public. You know, if you're throwing all this

838
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 1: stuff like this guy was super weird and it's like

839
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: not weird that he accidentally killed himself doing the super

840
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 1: weird stuff, they're more liable to just go, oh, yeah,

841
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 1: he killed himself. He was a weird like outlied TV

842
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 1: and dude, right, Versus if if you just kind of say, well,

843
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 1: none of that's that weird, and none of it really

844
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: leads you to believe that he would lock himself in

845
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 1: you know, owning women's clothes doesn't mean that he would

846
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: lock himself in a bag? What are you even doing it?

847
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 1: Just you know, maybe he was a bag man. But

848
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 1: but but yeah, I mean I don't know, he must

849
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: have because who the hell else would do it. Well,

850
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 1: so that's what we'll talk about in a minute. All right,

851
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 1: let's do it actually right now. Okay, so let's talk

852
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 1: about the theory that he did not do this to himself.

853
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: I'm not disputing that he that he couldn't have done it.

854
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: I mean that he could have locked himself in the bag.

855
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 1: He physically could have locked himself probably, yeah, but like

856
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,760
Speaker 1: why would you? And that's the thing we've been struggling

857
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 1: within this episode. Really really don't understand. Yeah, I mean,

858
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,959
Speaker 1: for one, I don't understand why people or whatever. Yeah,

859
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 1: I mean I think it was hard enough. Watching those

860
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 1: videos was really interesting because it was it was really

861
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,760
Speaker 1: hard for them to willingly get themselves into the bag

862
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 1: now unconscious. Like with some work, you could probably get

863
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:46,760
Speaker 1: somebody in a bag unconscious or dead, but an unwilling

864
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 1: participant who was like live and conscious, it would be

865
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 1: impossible to get them in the bag. I just like

866
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: impossible because you could, I mean even at gunpoint, not

867
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: flailing resistance, but you could just not be flex. I

868
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 1: don't fit. I'm sorry. I don't know what to tell you.

869
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: It's weird. I don't fit, and I'm sorry, you know,

870
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,839
Speaker 1: kind of like you know, yeah, that doesn't so weird.

871
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: The glove just doesn't fit me. It's so weird. It's

872
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: like I don't know how to put a glove on

873
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: or something. It's crazy. Oh yeah, he didn't even know

874
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,879
Speaker 1: what glove was, yeah, they've never seen this before. Uh

875
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 1: one idea I did have Again that kind of went

876
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 1: back to that like spy obsession. Was that like maybe

877
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: for some reason, somebody else was on accident even killed him,

878
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 1: you know that they were like, all right, we're going

879
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: to do this training of let's get you in the

880
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,359
Speaker 1: bag and you'll train on how to get out of it.

881
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: I'll let you out, don't worry. Was chev buddy told, yeah,

882
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 1: what you should do? Well, that's actually that's kind of

883
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: what I was thinking. Is my most likely scenario is

884
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 1: that he was he was playing some sort of a

885
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,759
Speaker 1: game with one or two friends, you know, and his

886
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 1: friends were you know, probably you know, d bags, but

887
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,359
Speaker 1: we need people like this teenagers, just the British version

888
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: of deep chad. Yeah okay, they were as okay, they

889
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 1: were chavs and and and he's like, yeah, you know,

890
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 1: I kind of kind of like, you know, want to

891
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 1: do the Udini thing in the bag and you guys

892
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 1: lock me in, okay, sure? And and and then if I

893
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 1: if I can't get out in like a minute, would

894
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: you let me back? Of course? Yeah. And because they're chads,

895
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,879
Speaker 1: they look at each other and snicker. Andy said we're

896
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: going to go to the pub for a part too soon,

897
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: you know, and they live and then they come back

898
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 1: and he's dead. Yeah, and they go, oh, you know, crap,

899
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 1: and then they wiped the place down and leave. Well,

900
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 1: even if totally that happen, well, I mean, even if

901
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: we could go with the actual theory, if it really

902
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 1: only took him like two to three minutes to suffocate

903
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 1: in there, you know, I don't Suffocation is often times

904
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: a really quiet thing, right, So it could have been

905
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 1: that they were like, okay, yeah, Gareth will lock you

906
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 1: in the bag for your big spy training thing, no problem, sure,

907
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 1: just you know, give a holler when you need us

908
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: to let you out or whatever. Yeah, And then you know,

909
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 1: twenty minutes later they're like, boy, he's been there a

910
00:48:53,320 --> 00:49:00,439
Speaker 1: long time, Gareth, Gareth, dude, dude, Okay, betterly. I mean,

911
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 1: I could really be something as simple as that. It's

912
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: not a super satisfying answer, but it could not. But know,

913
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 1: it seems most likely to me, Yeah, that's probably what happened. Um.

914
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 1: And there was the other thing that I'll bring up

915
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 1: real quick before we go into the really fun stuff

916
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,760
Speaker 1: that Steve hates, is that there was reportedly an incident

917
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,359
Speaker 1: at an unspecified amount of time prior to Gareth's at

918
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: some point in his career in his career, and it

919
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,399
Speaker 1: seems like it was a like a more recent thing,

920
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: probably within a year. Maybe. I don't know if I

921
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 1: had guessed that Gareth accessed confidential information regarding president or

922
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 1: former President Bill Clinton. I think it's my understanding that

923
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 1: what he accessed was a private guest list for an

924
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 1: event that one of Gareth's friends was invited to attend,

925
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: and like Gareth's friend wanted to see the guest list,

926
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 1: and so Gareth like hacked into the Clinton server and

927
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: got the guests else. Yeah, so I don't, um, I mean,

928
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 1: I don't it didn't make people happy, well, so like

929
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 1: it didn't obviously like that didn't make his supervisors happy, right,

930
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 1: But also I don't totally understand the thought process behind that,

931
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 1: but find whatever about them being unhappy about No, don't

932
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 1: know about him doing that. Somebody wanted to have the

933
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: guest list, well, but or you know, saying oh, yeah

934
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 1: you want the guest list, shirt, let me just hack

935
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 1: into this thing real quick and pull that for you,

936
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 1: like your service, dude, Like, what are you doing well? No,

937
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 1: it might have been somebody who was not actually in right. No,

938
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 1: But that's what I mean is that like, I don't

939
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 1: if I'm an m I six agent and my friend

940
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 1: is like, hey, I got invited to this party. Can

941
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 1: you hack into a server and find the guest list

942
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: for me? Your supervisors probably won't be very happy with you,

943
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 1: but you can do it anyway. I would be like, um, well,

944
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,359
Speaker 1: you don't know that he hacked. There's there's nothing about

945
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 1: hacking or anything. I mean probably and I literally could

946
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 1: have had access to it but was not supposed to

947
00:50:56,040 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 1: be accessing it. That what I mean think about it

948
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 1: is is m I six is the big thing is

949
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: is they probably read Clinton's emails all the time. They

950
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: probably read everything, well he and so and so. That

951
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: that was the big dirty secret is you know there's

952
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 1: they're reading the president's emails. It's described as um like

953
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 1: an unauthorized access to a confidential information. So you're right,

954
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 1: it couldn't. It could have been that he didn't hack it,

955
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 1: but he gained he gained access to something he was

956
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 1: not supposed to have accent and worst of all, shared

957
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 1: it with the outside world. Right, So maybe his supervisors

958
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 1: ordered the hit to shut him up or could punish

959
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 1: him for something, and they decided it in a really

960
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 1: low profile, stealthy kind of way. Yeah it worked. Yeah,

961
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 1: that's why all the clothes were there. They were like

962
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 1: also the blue dress over left her clothes and the bag.

963
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 1: Yeah that sounds very Clinton. Yeah yeah, it makes sense. Yeah.

964
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 1: Or it's because he'd been working with them an essay

965
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 1: and FBI to surveill Russia. Yeah, and Rusks did him

966
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 1: in yeah. Yeah. So here's what we might know on this.

967
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 1: It's Steve's favorite stuff. You've heard so much Russia hacking crable,

968
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 1: I know, I know, um, but most of this information

969
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: it so, most of this information comes from The Daily

970
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:22,840
Speaker 1: Mail and a defected KGB agent named Boris Courses Carpe.

971
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: We're gonna call Boris bodies um And. In August of

972
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: the Daily Mail reported that Gareth had been working with

973
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 1: FBI and n s A agents to track cash flow

974
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 1: out of Russia. Um And, according to Boris, the SVR,

975
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 1: which is like the Secret Success, was responsible for Gareth's

976
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 1: death because they had failed to blackmail him into becoming

977
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:59,320
Speaker 1: a double agent again recording. According to Boris, Gareth basically

978
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 1: told Russia he already knew who the Russian spy inside

979
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 1: of yeah g h Q was and basically that they

980
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: would have to kill him to keep him quiet. Smart

981
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 1: thing to the Russians, and Forest said um that they

982
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 1: apparently did via an untraceable poison introduced via his ear.

983
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: Remind me of this old Jack Handy saying. Remember Jack

984
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 1: Handy says, you know it says like I think if

985
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:26,959
Speaker 1: you were an Indian way back in the old days

986
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 1: and the Spanish kinds as it came out to you

987
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 1: and demanded to know where the gold was, I don't

988
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 1: think it would be a good idea to say I

989
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: swallowed it. So su me kind of a similar thing. Yeah,

990
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:39,799
Speaker 1: I find it hard to believe that to say, yeah,

991
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:42,799
Speaker 1: I know who the rat is going to do about it? Huh, Well,

992
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,280
Speaker 1: I mean I think it's it's possible. Probably the phrasing

993
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:47,720
Speaker 1: was more like you, I know, you already have somebody

994
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: in there, so no, right, I mean, still not smart,

995
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 1: but probably not so much like no, I already you

996
00:53:56,000 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 1: know well have been something more on the order of

997
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 1: and this this actually does sometimes happen in the real world.

998
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 1: When Gareth, like you know it looks at a bunch

999
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 1: of stuff and and puts two and two together and says,

1000
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 1: and it goes to his boss and says, you know what,

1001
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 1: I have proof here that we have a mole in

1002
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 1: the organization. But unfortunately for Gareth, well the boss is

1003
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,760
Speaker 1: the mole and so and such things have actually happened

1004
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 1: actually in the intelligence world, and so maybe that's what

1005
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:26,359
Speaker 1: did it, man, But still I don't think it was them,

1006
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 1: because that's kind of a that's just not a low

1007
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: profile way to do it. But but the thing is

1008
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 1: is that the Russians at times can be weirdly petty

1009
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 1: about stuff. You know, they can they can take what

1010
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 1: they consider what seems like the smallest of slights and

1011
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:46,359
Speaker 1: go to some weird lengths. He was listening to something

1012
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 1: the other day. You guys, have you heard of the

1013
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: mcginsky act? Yeah, yeah, okay, So mcginsky was. He was accountant.

1014
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,279
Speaker 1: I believe he was Russian, even thought he was a

1015
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 1: Russian lawyer. Yeah, you're right, he wasn't lawyer. And so

1016
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 1: he's working for a guy who is he is Kenneth Duberstein.

1017
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 1: I believe it's how you pronounce his name. Yeah, Duberstein,

1018
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 1: that sounds better. But anyway, so he does something the

1019
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:17,680
Speaker 1: Duberstein does, he's the Russians off. They tell him you

1020
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:19,879
Speaker 1: can't come back in the country as lawyers, like that's

1021
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 1: really weird, looks into it. The Russians then arrest him

1022
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: and he dies mysteriously in custody. That's the lawyer, that's

1023
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 1: the lawyer. Yeah. So now Duberstein is like going around saying, Hey,

1024
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 1: all these countries, you got to stop the Russians from

1025
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 1: doing this. And every time that he gets some country

1026
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 1: to pass the act that he is pushing, they the

1027
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 1: Russians do something in retaliation to him, over and over

1028
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 1: and over, like apparently they just recently they put him

1029
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 1: on the top ten list for Scotland yard like, oh yeah, no,

1030
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:58,280
Speaker 1: he's a he's a serial killer. He's crazy, like weird.

1031
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:02,279
Speaker 1: But the US for just a little bit, they did,

1032
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:05,759
Speaker 1: but but they do weird. But like I call it,

1033
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 1: I consider it petty acts because but they just think

1034
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 1: it's such a knee jerk reaction. Like I really do

1035
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 1: not believe that the Russians killed this guy, But my

1036
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 1: point is it's entirely possible because they kind of just

1037
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 1: their hair brained it time not but not if it

1038
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:26,279
Speaker 1: was over a mole. Uh, and that's what's in M

1039
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 1: I six or g h Q. I mean not then,

1040
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 1: because you've got to do a really low profile hit.

1041
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:34,320
Speaker 1: Then well, I do call a lot of attention to

1042
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 1: the fact that you just whacked the guy that knows

1043
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:39,239
Speaker 1: them all told me the whole mole angle didn't come

1044
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:41,920
Speaker 1: out for a long time. Yeah, and that probably was

1045
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:43,719
Speaker 1: not It probably wasn't a thing. But I mean, if that,

1046
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 1: if that, if the Russians whacked him, they had to

1047
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:47,879
Speaker 1: have a reason for it. Okay, either he knew about

1048
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,319
Speaker 1: them all on G C s Q, or they tried

1049
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,720
Speaker 1: to recruit him and he said no, or maybe both,

1050
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 1: or maybe both. But I almost wonder if it's that

1051
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:58,680
Speaker 1: combination of they killed him and locked him in the

1052
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:00,959
Speaker 1: bag and they're like, okay, but Orris, you will come back.

1053
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:03,839
Speaker 1: It could be to pick up your bag. No, they

1054
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 1: were like, boys, you will pick up the bag and

1055
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: drop it in the river and it will be like

1056
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 1: he never existed and that's fine, right, And then or

1057
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 1: you know, or just forgets about it or can't gain

1058
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 1: access to the apartment again for whatever reason. Yeah, I mean,

1059
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 1: you know, and then suddenly you know, or he's like okay,

1060
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 1: I'll be back in like twelve hours it's fine, or

1061
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 1: like twelve days it's fine. And then the police come

1062
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 1: and discover it before he goes to pick up the body.

1063
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 1: And I mean, you know there is a possibility of

1064
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think, you know, I don't think

1065
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 1: it would be anything is dumb is just forgetting about

1066
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: it or losing the key. No, I don't think. So

1067
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:43,880
Speaker 1: we totally see where something was something I totally have

1068
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 1: foreseen what happened. I said. He gets run over by

1069
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 1: a bus, you know, and he's already you know, and

1070
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 1: maybe he's he's got the body in the bag and

1071
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 1: the batub and he hasn't moved it yet, and his

1072
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 1: controller or whatever says, hey, did you take care of

1073
00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 1: that situation? And Boris says, boris real, I think he

1074
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 1: hasn't quite taken care of that last little detail. Says, oh, yeah,

1075
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: it's all taken care of. Not to worry. Then he

1076
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 1: gets run over by a boss, but his control doesn't

1077
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 1: worry because that last little detail has all been taken

1078
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 1: care of as far as he knows. See, it wasn't. Yeah,

1079
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 1: So I mean, if the Russians did do it, they

1080
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 1: must have meant to come back and get the body. Yeah,

1081
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 1: I would agree. I mean the other thing that is

1082
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 1: like a little we kind of glossed over this, but

1083
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 1: it's a little weird that you know it was August,

1084
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: but also the heat was like cranked up pretty high

1085
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 1: in the apartment, which aided in the accelerated decomposition of

1086
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:35,080
Speaker 1: the body. Do we know what the heat was turned

1087
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 1: up to? Okay, the heat was on is all we know.

1088
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 1: But but why was the heat on in August? But

1089
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 1: in the middle of the night. I have woken up

1090
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 1: in August when it's been warm and then it cooled

1091
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:54,200
Speaker 1: off at night, and I shut the windows and had

1092
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:57,480
Speaker 1: contemplated turning on the heat. I mean, this, this does happen.

1093
00:58:57,640 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 1: So it's possible that he had a heat pump or

1094
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 1: some kind of automated system that was set to seventy

1095
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 1: five or whatever the equivalent is in in c But yeah,

1096
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 1: I agree. Except for that, the police did bring it

1097
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 1: up as like being weird and suspicious. Well, they also

1098
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 1: brought up his Internet searches and the women's clothes and

1099
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:22,479
Speaker 1: anything else that they could sling at this story to say,

1100
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 1: not our fault, somebody else is weird. That's true, but

1101
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:28,960
Speaker 1: it did his body was more decomposed than you might

1102
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 1: otherwise expect from that timeline. I think it's my understanding

1103
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 1: they came up with the timeline based on other activities

1104
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 1: that they could corroborate, not just like yeah, or like

1105
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 1: talking to people or being at work or whatever. Well,

1106
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 1: you know what, I what I find really funny is

1107
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:47,160
Speaker 1: that you don't see a whole lot of information about

1108
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 1: is the fact that this was not the first welfare

1109
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 1: visit that had been done to his apartment, Like on

1110
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:56,439
Speaker 1: the first day that he didn't make contact, they sent

1111
00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:59,440
Speaker 1: the cops over, and then they waited a full another

1112
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:04,479
Speaker 1: week for doing it again. Like that's hinky. Yeah, there's

1113
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 1: a lot it's I think, you know, it's just like

1114
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 1: there's a lot of weird stuff that's going on with

1115
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 1: this case, which is why it's such a good Unsolf mystery.

1116
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 1: I don't I always favor the Russian angle just because

1117
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 1: it's like the most fun for me is an American

1118
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 1: as a true American citizen, or not necessarily even the Russians.

1119
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 1: I mean, there's other intelligence services, there's other bad actors

1120
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:26,200
Speaker 1: out there of all kinds, I mean, and and a

1121
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 1: lot of the cash could have been in North Rurians,

1122
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 1: but you know, I could have been some private parties,

1123
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:33,920
Speaker 1: because I mean, the whole Russia thing, cash flows out

1124
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 1: of Russia is not all just KGB. It was the

1125
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 1: Lake City quiet Pels. I'm pretty sure that. Yeah. Yeah,

1126
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 1: but there's no reason to kill him and stuff him

1127
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:45,040
Speaker 1: in a bag unless you plan on moving him. I agree,

1128
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 1: but I don't. I also don't think there's any reason

1129
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 1: to put yourself lock yourself in a bag unless it

1130
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:53,800
Speaker 1: was the Vikings did well. The only another reason I

1131
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:56,320
Speaker 1: could take this non kinking would be if he was

1132
01:00:56,320 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 1: on a Houdini kink excuse me, kick, was on a

1133
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 1: kick and because who do he did do stuff like that.

1134
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:06,960
Speaker 1: So maybe he thought he'd go all Hoodini in the world.

1135
01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 1: Maybe that was his hobby. Maybe he had this new

1136
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:11,120
Speaker 1: hobby of doing. He seems like he would have been

1137
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 1: doing a lot of Internet searches for that though. Yeah,

1138
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:17,600
Speaker 1: just how to escape a locked bag? Yeah, that would

1139
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 1: be the first thing I would google. Maybe, Yeah, I

1140
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe maybe he carefully hit all that stuff, yeah,

1141
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 1: I thought, seems about right, Yeah, but not his bondage stuff. Yeah. Yeah,

1142
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 1: all the weeks I don't know, what do you? I mean,

1143
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:34,360
Speaker 1: I think most likely is that there was another party

1144
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 1: involved and they locked the bag for him in his

1145
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 1: behest and just left him there, let's see, and then

1146
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:42,680
Speaker 1: just panicked and wiped the place down a bit and left.

1147
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 1: It's just kind of stupid and sad and tragic because

1148
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 1: who knows, maybe they could have called and gotten an

1149
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 1: ambulance there and maybe saved him him out of the bag.

1150
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:56,280
Speaker 1: I think something similar to that. I mean, I had

1151
01:01:56,280 --> 01:02:00,160
Speaker 1: seen allusions to the fact that he had a lady

1152
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:02,600
Speaker 1: over and they were playing some kind of kinky game,

1153
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 1: which is fine, but she may have, just as Joe said,

1154
01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:10,920
Speaker 1: locked the bag for him, and when he stopped responding,

1155
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:13,360
Speaker 1: he was like, oh crap, I can't get it open,

1156
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 1: which would explain why everything either way, whether it's Joe

1157
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 1: or eyes, would explain why things were white down. Oh God,

1158
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:22,480
Speaker 1: I have to get out of here. I gotta get

1159
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:25,240
Speaker 1: my so wipe the bag down, white the lockdown, the

1160
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:27,640
Speaker 1: tom you know, every surface that I think I came there,

1161
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 1: an attack with vacuum on the way out the door. Yeah.

1162
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 1: The fact that he's got no left, no fingerprints or DNA,

1163
01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 1: and the lock kind of indicates to me that somebody

1164
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:39,600
Speaker 1: else put the lock on entirely because he, while not easy,

1165
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 1: could have pinched the lock through the bag. The body

1166
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:46,200
Speaker 1: of the lock, you know, the big, the square of it.

1167
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:49,760
Speaker 1: He could have held onto that while he was threading

1168
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:51,720
Speaker 1: it around. Now, that's a not a lot of room

1169
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 1: to move. And I understand that it's possible. Why I

1170
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:59,320
Speaker 1: don't have the idea why unless he couldn't get his

1171
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:02,360
Speaker 1: hand out of the bag enough and that was the

1172
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:06,040
Speaker 1: only way he could get purchased was too I see

1173
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 1: what you're saying now, But I mean still why, because

1174
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:10,760
Speaker 1: I mean, at some point the lock had to be

1175
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 1: transported over to the bag and put on the bag.

1176
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 1: Is he gonna wear glass for that? And if so,

1177
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:18,080
Speaker 1: why why? I don't know? He was clean, freaking he

1178
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:20,080
Speaker 1: was wiped it off because it was greasy and gay.

1179
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:22,640
Speaker 1: I have no idea. I don't know why you get

1180
01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 1: into a bag? Yeah, and I know it's it's this

1181
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 1: whole thing. I understand this. This is uh, this is

1182
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:31,160
Speaker 1: a mystery that's actually been suggested to us. I don't

1183
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:33,160
Speaker 1: know how many times, by how many people are but

1184
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's obviously a really popular mystery because

1185
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 1: it is very inexplicable. It's it's there's not none of

1186
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:43,120
Speaker 1: it makes any sense. I mean, murder makes no sense,

1187
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 1: kinky sex makes no sense, none of it does, none

1188
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 1: of it. Not a single thing about this case makes sense.

1189
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:53,600
Speaker 1: Not really. Yeah okay, so, um, I guess we just

1190
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:55,920
Speaker 1: agree that none of this makes sense and it's crazy

1191
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:58,240
Speaker 1: and stupid and we'll never know anything. Yeah. I would

1192
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 1: say that if you're still investigating it out there over

1193
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:04,240
Speaker 1: in written if you want to go my my cocky,

1194
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 1: my cock eyed theory of of the Russian agents or

1195
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 1: whatever agents bag the body and then got run over

1196
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:13,040
Speaker 1: by a bus, well, you might want to check on

1197
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:16,480
Speaker 1: like accidents around that time period which Soviet diplomats, for example,

1198
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:19,760
Speaker 1: got run over by a busy. Let's do that to

1199
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 1: pursue That's the only angle I can think of really,

1200
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 1: Other than that, I'm kind of at a dead end here. Yeah. Okay, well, um,

1201
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:32,240
Speaker 1: I guess that does it for this mystery. Lay Yeah.

1202
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 1: If you want to see that video that we were

1203
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 1: talking about earlier, some of our other research, you can

1204
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:39,000
Speaker 1: go ahead and find that on our website, which is

1205
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:41,960
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. On that website, you can

1206
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:45,840
Speaker 1: also find links to merch episode lists, you can listen

1207
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 1: to the episodes. You can I don't know, do lots

1208
01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:52,920
Speaker 1: of other really fun things on it too. Moving on. Uh.

1209
01:04:53,240 --> 01:04:57,760
Speaker 1: You can also connect with us via social media. You

1210
01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 1: can do that on Facebook where we've got a group

1211
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:03,040
Speaker 1: and a page. Um. If you want to join the group,

1212
01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:05,240
Speaker 1: you just have to answer the questions. They're really easy.

1213
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 1: It'll take two seconds. What's your favorite color? Yeah, those

1214
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 1: are the questions. Yep. Um, you can connect. You can

1215
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 1: connect with us on Twitter, which where we are thinking sideways,

1216
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:20,520
Speaker 1: and you can connect with us on Reddit, where our

1217
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:24,600
Speaker 1: subreddit is thinking sideways. Uh. You can you know where

1218
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:27,120
Speaker 1: you're finding us, where you're listening to us. Uh. It

1219
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:29,640
Speaker 1: might be iTunes, it might be Stitcher, it might be

1220
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 1: Google Play, it might be who the heck knows what else.

1221
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:36,520
Speaker 1: If you haven't already, please do subscribe and leave a

1222
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:39,400
Speaker 1: rating on a review on our show. It helps other

1223
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:43,480
Speaker 1: people find us. Um Our iTunes reviews are going awesome,

1224
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:46,480
Speaker 1: so let's keep that up. Oh yeah, by the way,

1225
01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:50,280
Speaker 1: I put the five star reviews and down with the reviews. Yeah,

1226
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:54,280
Speaker 1: do it, um and then. Uh. The other way that

1227
01:05:54,320 --> 01:05:57,479
Speaker 1: you can reach out to us is by email where

1228
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:00,680
Speaker 1: you can, um just talk to us or whatever you

1229
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:03,520
Speaker 1: want to do. Really, um, that email address is thinking

1230
01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:07,040
Speaker 1: Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. All of that having

1231
01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:09,240
Speaker 1: been said, I think we're going to go ahead and

1232
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:17,920
Speaker 1: bag this one. Yeah, mom jokes, Yeah, zip it up?

1233
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 1: What the come up with one? You can do it.

1234
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:25,400
Speaker 1: Let's see, I'm going to north face it. Are you

1235
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:32,000
Speaker 1: locked it in? Dang? Okay, we'll see you guys next week. Bye, guys.

1236
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:34,520
Speaker 1: We gotta work on Joe's Putton say. I'm gonna go

1237
01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:35,360
Speaker 1: pack my bags