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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff to blow your mind. From house thy

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Speaker 1: character must have the names of the five angels written

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Speaker 1: in the midst of sigellum, a myth graven upon the

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Speaker 1: other side in a circle in the midst whereof must

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Speaker 1: the stone be which was also brought wherein thou shalt

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Speaker 1: at time to behold privately to thyself the state of

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Speaker 1: God's people through the whole earth. Go and thou shalt

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Speaker 1: receive terry, and you shall receive sleep, and you shall see.

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Speaker 1: But watch, and your eyes shall be fully opened. One thing,

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Speaker 1: which is the ground and element of thy desire, is

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Speaker 1: already profited. And out of seven thou hast been instructed

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Speaker 1: of the lesser pot most perfectly. Hey, welcome to stuff

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Speaker 1: to blow your mind. My name is Robert Lamb and

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Speaker 1: I'm Christian Seger. And from the beginning there you may

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Speaker 1: think that we were, I don't know, performing a ritual

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Speaker 1: of some kind and trying to summon an angel, And

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Speaker 1: you would be half right. That's right. That is uh.

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Speaker 1: That is a quote from the writings of the legendary,

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Speaker 1: the mysterious, the influential Dr John d the topic of

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Speaker 1: both episodes this week. Uh, and he is a fascinating

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Speaker 1: character and elizabethan mathematician, uh conjurer, possibly a spy cryptographer.

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Speaker 1: The list goes on first and foremost a mathematician, but

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Speaker 1: it gets it gets a lot more complicated than that,

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Speaker 1: is you try and piece together this man, the world

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Speaker 1: he lived in, and what he really believed in. D

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Speaker 1: Is is one of those characters that we've We've been

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Speaker 1: talking about doing an episode on him for a while now,

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Speaker 1: and when we dove into the research, we we really realized, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this needs to be two episodes. And the way that

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Speaker 1: we've decided to split these episodes categorically is this first

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Speaker 1: episode is going to be more grounded in the sexy,

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Speaker 1: occult magical stuff, and the second episode is going to

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Speaker 1: be grounded in his scientific endeavors and his state craft. Um.

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Speaker 1: There's so much about him that I learned doing this,

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Speaker 1: and there's so many different interpretations too. He's just this

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Speaker 1: fascinating individual. Um. If you're unfamiliar with him, I guess

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Speaker 1: the best way to describe him is that he was

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Speaker 1: one of the leading intellectuals of his time. It may

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Speaker 1: not sound like it given some of the things we're

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Speaker 1: gonna say in these episodes, but he had magical interests.

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Speaker 1: But despite that, he brought developments to England and cartography, navigation, mathematics,

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Speaker 1: astronomy and cryptography, and his reputation in alchemy and astrology

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Speaker 1: totally influenced the court of Queen Elizabeth the first. He

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Speaker 1: was no doubt influential in that respect. Yeah, he He

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Speaker 1: had a rapport with with Queen Elizabeth. Uh. Some historians

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Speaker 1: go as far as to say that they were friends,

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Speaker 1: and you do get the idea that there may have

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Speaker 1: been as much of a friendship as was possible between

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Speaker 1: the Queen of England and uh, you know, essentially a

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Speaker 1: common born intellectual who dabbled in magic. Right yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: we'll say this later, but he did think of himself

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Speaker 1: as her Merlin, which is really fascinating and comes into play.

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Speaker 1: So the I said that we're going to split these

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Speaker 1: episodes up. But one thing that you have to keep

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Speaker 1: in mind is that the magic and the science overlap

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Speaker 1: a lot too. Um, and so even in things like

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Speaker 1: when he's advising them on national matters, on expanding the

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Speaker 1: English Empire, he's still thinking in magical terms, like he's

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Speaker 1: Merlin and she's King Arthur. Right, He's he's a guy who,

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Speaker 1: like I said, it's it's essential to keep the mathematics

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Speaker 1: and he in mind. But it's not like he's a

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Speaker 1: guy who, all right, I'm gonna do my job here,

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Speaker 1: which is science or mathematics, and then in my free

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Speaker 1: time I'm going to do a little sorcery and in

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Speaker 1: and then also I have this advising gig with the Queen.

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Speaker 1: He saw it all connected. He saw it as part

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Speaker 1: of a single tapestry of cosmos. And so there's a

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Speaker 1: note I just want to provide here before we really

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Speaker 1: dive in deep, which is I was reading an article

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Speaker 1: in History Today that came out earlier this year by

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Speaker 1: a woman named Katie Burkewood, and she says, keep in

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Speaker 1: mind that the main sources for the story of Dee's

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Speaker 1: life are all his own. Um so mainly what we're

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Speaker 1: looking at. What we didn't look at this, We looked

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Speaker 1: at people's interpretation of those primary sources, but we da

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Speaker 1: that's true. But mainly his diaries, which cover the period

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Speaker 1: from fifteen seventy seven to sixteen o seven, so about

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Speaker 1: from his age of fifty until he died, those were

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Speaker 1: a big source of his uh I guess life history.

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Speaker 1: And this also coincides with the period of time where

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Speaker 1: he was up to his most fantastic endeavors, so keep

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Speaker 1: that in mind. His early years were documented in his

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Speaker 1: own autobiographical account, which was written in fifteen ninety four,

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Speaker 1: and what he was trying to do is explain his

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Speaker 1: past to the crown, basically to Queen Elizabeth, because he

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Speaker 1: was trying to secure a royal position or an appointment

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Speaker 1: that would secure him a regular income. Uh And another

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Speaker 1: source is the books that were recovered from his stolen collection.

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna talk probably a lot throughout the course

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Speaker 1: of these episodes about he had this infamously huge library

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Speaker 1: and it was ransacked at one point, and some of

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Speaker 1: those books have been recovered, uh and he wrote extensive

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Speaker 1: annotations in their margins, so some uh D scholars, I guess,

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Speaker 1: go and find these copies and read those annotations to

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Speaker 1: try to learn more about him. Apparently much of that

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Speaker 1: library now resides with the Royal College of Physicians, I

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Speaker 1: think in England. Yeah, so it's it's kind of difficult

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Speaker 1: to tell truth from fiction in some of these cases.

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Speaker 1: And Robert and I did our best when we read

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Speaker 1: something that sounded really strange to corroborate it with multiple sources,

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Speaker 1: and we we did find that. But then again, like

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Speaker 1: those sources were all mainly coming from D's own writings,

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Speaker 1: that's right there. There of course a number of wonderful

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Speaker 1: books out there on D and his work, some books

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Speaker 1: with with with different focuses than others. Uh. One book

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Speaker 1: that I kept looking at was the one by Benjamin Wooley.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, The Queen's Conjure. Uh. Excellent book, very readable.

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Speaker 1: I recommend that to anybody. But yeah, this is a

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Speaker 1: guy that is really, in many ways a near unbelievable character,

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Speaker 1: truly stranger than fiction. Like if if Alan Moore wrote

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Speaker 1: him into a story, you chalk it up to, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: that's just Alan Moore's wondrous imagination and use of fictional

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Speaker 1: and historic and pop culture hybridization. The same if he

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Speaker 1: had appeared in an umberto Echo book, you might be

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Speaker 1: tempted to think, oh, this is a fantastic creation, this

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Speaker 1: Dr D. But but no, he this was a real,

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Speaker 1: real man. He lived, he wrote, and I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: there has been anyone quite like him since we we

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Speaker 1: see parallels and some of the figures that we've covered

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Speaker 1: on the show and we'll and and are planning to

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Speaker 1: cover such as John C. Lily or Jack Parsons, but

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Speaker 1: D kind of stands alone. Yeah, And it's funny that

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Speaker 1: you mentioned Alan Moore because one of the sources that

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Speaker 1: I went to was a History Channel special that aired

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and two and it was narrated by

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Speaker 1: Brian Cox all about John D's life, and Alan Moore

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Speaker 1: is one of the go to experts that they summon.

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Speaker 1: You know, they cut to him every once in a while,

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Speaker 1: and you hear that out in more voice, he's he

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Speaker 1: really knows his stuff about d um I imagine because

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Speaker 1: Alan Moore is really into sort of like the history

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Speaker 1: of English magic and stuff like that outside of his

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Speaker 1: own fiction. But um, yeah, he the first first of all,

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Speaker 1: I recommend, like, if you're really into John D, go

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Speaker 1: check out this this video. I watched it on YouTube,

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Speaker 1: and uh, some of it's hilarious and some of it's

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Speaker 1: really illuminating. But there's um they like do that thing

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Speaker 1: that the History Channel used to do where they like

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Speaker 1: re enact scenes of a person's life with actors and

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Speaker 1: they have like kind of makeshift, low budget like sets

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Speaker 1: and stuff, so like shadowy scenes of somebody dressed as

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Speaker 1: John D shuffling papers around sort of yeah, that thing,

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Speaker 1: or like him looking into a crystal ball, or him

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Speaker 1: just walking across the field. Yeah. So I think probably

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Speaker 1: the best way for us to to really first introduce

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Speaker 1: you to John D is let's just do a broad

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Speaker 1: stroke overview of his life. You know, we've given you

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Speaker 1: sort of the two sentence summary of who John D was,

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Speaker 1: but we'll start with his life and then we'll really

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Speaker 1: dive in deep into the magic stuff. Yeah, for with

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Speaker 1: a guy like this, I feel like this is the

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Speaker 1: best approach. We'll give you the broad strokes and then

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Speaker 1: we'll go back in and discuss the areas that we

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Speaker 1: we we have time to discuss in these episodes. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I just want to say to like, keep in

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Speaker 1: mind that there are people whose like entire career is

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Speaker 1: writing about this guy. So what we cover in like

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Speaker 1: two too and a half hours and podcasts, maybe you

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Speaker 1: may be out there, you may know some stuff about

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Speaker 1: D and be like, well, why didn't you you cover that.

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Speaker 1: There's only so much we could do here, so we

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Speaker 1: really tried to condense it down to fit the show.

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Speaker 1: All Right, Well, here we go, let's kick it off

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Speaker 1: with the July. John d is born in London, England. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and my first question is who ray this is a

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Speaker 1: guy like John D. Like, how does he how does

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Speaker 1: he end up like this? So his father, Roland, was

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Speaker 1: a merchant of fabrics and textiles and he worked for

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Speaker 1: King Henry the Eighth. Uh. In fifteen fifty three, his

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Speaker 1: father was actually indicted and imprisoned in the Tower of London,

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Speaker 1: presumably because he had ties to Protestant reformists and sympathizers

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Speaker 1: of the late King Edward. So there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: This is a theme that goes on throughout D's life,

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Speaker 1: is the political struggles back and forth between the Catholic

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Speaker 1: and Protestant Church. Yeah, that's definitely going on in the

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Speaker 1: background the whole time. Now fifty two, John D enters St.

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Speaker 1: John's College at Cambridge. Yeah, and so from what I

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Speaker 1: read at the time, the curriculum for such a college

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Speaker 1: included something called the trivium, which is grammar, rhetoric and logic.

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Speaker 1: And once you master those things you get your what

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Speaker 1: would be your your bachelor's basically, uh. And then the

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Speaker 1: quadrivium is what you study for your masters, and that's

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Speaker 1: astronomy geography, music, and mathematics. Now, okay, again this is

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Speaker 1: self reported from his own thing that he wrote to

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Speaker 1: the Queen later in life. But D says that while

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Speaker 1: he was there he only slept four hours a night,

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Speaker 1: so all he could do is study. So on one

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Speaker 1: hand he was essentially applying for a position in this

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Speaker 1: but also, as as as we discussed more about John D,

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Speaker 1: I don't really doubt this for a second. He seems

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Speaker 1: like the kind of guy who who may have only

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Speaker 1: slept four hours a night, could constantly consume information. So

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Speaker 1: in fifty five he really he receives that bachelor's degree

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Speaker 1: in Arts and readership. Fifty seven he takes his first

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Speaker 1: scientific learning excursion to the Low Countries of continental Europe,

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Speaker 1: and this becomes important later on because he spends an

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Speaker 1: increasingly increasing amount of times there on various excursions. Eight

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Speaker 1: he gets his master's degree from Cambridge studying mathematics and navigation,

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Speaker 1: and then fifteen forty eight to fifteen fifty one his

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Speaker 1: second learning excursion to the Low Countries and Uh in particular.

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Speaker 1: On this trip he studied under mathematician cartographers Pezro Nonez

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Speaker 1: Gema for Silius Abraham Ortelius and gerardis Mercator, as well

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Speaker 1: as through his own studies in Paris and elsewhere. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and these the second set of travels, these benefited England.

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Speaker 1: What he would do is he'd share his findings from

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Speaker 1: these travels with Queen Elizabeth's associate. So for here's an example,

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Speaker 1: in fifteen sixty two he discovered the works of Trithemius,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about this later. He introduced

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Speaker 1: the Court and subsequently Elizabeth to the study of modern

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Speaker 1: cryptography through this, ultimately changing I guess war games, right

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Speaker 1: with the way that they used cryptography. Yeah, yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: we'll definitely get into that in this into the second episode.

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Speaker 1: But this was a time when when coded messages were

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Speaker 1: where really important. There was a mayor a matter of

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Speaker 1: life and life and death. Now, as you mentioned, at

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Speaker 1: this time, he is he's he seems to have his

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Speaker 1: sight set on official, on an official position with the Crown,

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Speaker 1: and in doing so, he turned down a mathematical professorship

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Speaker 1: at the University of Paris, and he turned down a

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Speaker 1: similar position at the University of Oxford that was in

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Speaker 1: fifty one and fifty four, and then he returned to England.

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Speaker 1: He went to Court and there he offered mathematical science

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Speaker 1: instruction to courtiers, to navigators, just generally trying to make

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Speaker 1: himself useful to the court. He served as a consultant

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Speaker 1: and an astrologer to, among others, Queen Mary the first. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So before he worked for Mary's court, he had a

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Speaker 1: patron who was the Duke of Northumberland, and this guy

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Speaker 1: tried to place his own daughter in law on the

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Speaker 1: throne before Mary was placed there. He was charged with

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Speaker 1: treason and executed. And this is one of the first

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Speaker 1: of many times indeed's life where he had less influence

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Speaker 1: because he had sort of like followed the wrong person,

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Speaker 1: and he has these periods of like waxing and waning

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Speaker 1: influence over the English monarchy. Yeah, getting involved in the

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Speaker 1: machinations of of the court. Here, um, who's in and

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Speaker 1: who's out, Which which stars rising, which one's falling. So

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Speaker 1: then in fifteen fifty five, this is when he's jailed

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Speaker 1: on the charge of being a conjuror. He was soon

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Speaker 1: released thereafter. But let's let's pause for a second and

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Speaker 1: try to figure this out. So the thinking here is

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Speaker 1: that Queen Mary's examiners were the ones who jailed him,

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Speaker 1: possibly with charges of conspiring with her sister Elizabeth, who

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Speaker 1: was arrival at the time, and he was allegedly casting

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Speaker 1: horoscopes for Queen Mary and her family without their permission,

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Speaker 1: and because the predictions were bad for Mary, it was

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Speaker 1: considered to be practicing witchcraft against the crown. The story

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Speaker 1: goes like this that while Elizabeth was under house arrest,

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Speaker 1: she asked d to perform her and Mary's horror scope,

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Speaker 1: and so he did, and it predicted that Elizabeth would

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Speaker 1: have a long reign and that Mary would die, which

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Speaker 1: you know kind of happened, uh, And this is what

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Speaker 1: landed him in jail. Now after this, after he gets

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Speaker 1: out of jail, he's placed under the charge of Edmund Bonner,

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Speaker 1: who is the Bishop of London. And in one of

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Speaker 1: these writings he actually refers to Bonner as his quote

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Speaker 1: singular friend, and there's some dispute about like are they

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Speaker 1: actually friends or is this like his sarcastic term for

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Speaker 1: this guy who's like kind of his jailer um. But

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Speaker 1: after this point, all of these written works included sections

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Speaker 1: defending his reputation from slander. So he was well aware

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Speaker 1: that his mixture of astrology and magic and conjuring with

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Speaker 1: science and mathematics and statesmanship was under scrutiny, and not

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Speaker 1: for the last time. So in eight he published an

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Speaker 1: afrotistic Introduction which presented his his own views on natural philosophy,

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Speaker 1: forspy and astrology and h then fifteen fifty eight the

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Speaker 1: same year, this is also when the rule of Queen

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth the First begins. Yeah, and so the rumor here

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Speaker 1: again this is from d Zone writings, is that when

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth took power, she asked d to choose her coronation

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Speaker 1: date based on astrology. Now who knows. I mean, yes,

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Speaker 1: there's evidence that he was jailed performing horoscopes for her previously,

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Speaker 1: so why wouldn't she. But then you know he's the

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Speaker 1: one claiming this stuff, and we know that later on

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Speaker 1: in life he's just constantly trying to gain favor with

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Speaker 1: the court by it sort of, but he's he's bolstering

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Speaker 1: his resume. So yeah, he becomes the scientific and medical

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Speaker 1: advisor to the Queen and uh were in the mid

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Speaker 1: fifteen sixties, he establishes himself at more Lake, near London,

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Speaker 1: where he builds a laboratory, the largest private library in England,

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Speaker 1: more than four thousand books and manuscripts, and he ut,

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Speaker 1: you know, well, we'll describe some more of the settings here,

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Speaker 1: but it sounds like a fabulous place. And he would

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Speaker 1: he would invite other scholars to come in and and

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Speaker 1: use his books if they needed to look something up.

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Speaker 1: And of course he was constantly in communication with other people,

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Speaker 1: Like it was I was reading just yesterday about how

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Speaker 1: he had these correspondence, uh, series of correspondence with with

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Speaker 1: Chico Brahi, the real Yeah, the famed astronomer. Yeah, famously

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Speaker 1: lost his nose in a sword fight. Fabulous character of

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Speaker 1: the time. Yeah, we should totally do it, Tycho Brahe episode. Um. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the other thing about this to note, just for context,

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Speaker 1: about the library, we say four thousand books, and some

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Speaker 1: of you are like, yeah, I got four thousand books

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Speaker 1: in my house, right. Well, here's context. He had two thousand,

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Speaker 1: six hundred and seventy manuscripts in that collection. Cambridge University

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Speaker 1: at the time only had four hundred and fifty one

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Speaker 1: manuscripts and Oxford University only had three hundred and seventy nine.

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Speaker 1: So this was considered a massive library at the time. Like,

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Speaker 1: if you're thinking about this, like, uh, going back to

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Speaker 1: the Grimoire episode that you and I did a couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago, right, Like, like, these are not just

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Speaker 1: like pulp books. They're not like soft covers, right, Like

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Speaker 1: some of these are written on parchment or their palap sests. Right,

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Speaker 1: So I mean he's got like a serious collection here

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Speaker 1: in The books are unique too. Yeah. In many cases,

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Speaker 1: these would be books where you're wanting to read them,

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Speaker 1: you might ask arounding and you would find out, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: Dr D has a copy of that. You should go

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Speaker 1: ask him. Maybe you'll get to look at it. Here's

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Speaker 1: another interesting thing I wanted to point out as well.

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Speaker 1: There's no evidence that he ever earned a doctoral degree,

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Speaker 1: but he was always referred to as Dr D. Kind

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Speaker 1: of interesting. Now. In a fifteen sixty four he published

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Speaker 1: the Hieroglyphic Monad, in which he offered a single mathematical

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Speaker 1: magical symbol as the key to unlocking, uh, the the

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Speaker 1: unity of nature. Yeah, and this, I mean, I guess

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Speaker 1: we'll maybe like post this on the landing page or

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Speaker 1: something thing we we actually shared or you shared it

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Speaker 1: on Facebook yesterday, kind of teasing the audience. Hey, this

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Speaker 1: is what we're working on. One person got it and

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Speaker 1: they referred to him as the d um but it

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Speaker 1: kind of looks like, how do you pronounce that that

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Speaker 1: German industrial band ein Stretton's nine streas into a new Boton. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it does. In fact, I had to to look up

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Speaker 1: a New Boton's logo just to make sure that they

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Speaker 1: weren't too similar to them. Like, I never thought about

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Speaker 1: this before, but you know, they're two distinct symbols, but

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Speaker 1: they are reminiscent of one another. Yeah, very much so.

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Speaker 1: For some reason, I also find it looks like it

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Speaker 1: kind of looks like it could be a character from

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Speaker 1: a SpongeBob cartoon. I don't know. It does have like

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Speaker 1: an anthropologic quality to it, of like a head with

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Speaker 1: arms and legs and then like devil's horns. Yeah, or

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Speaker 1: it makes me think of the the aliens from Slaughterhouse

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Speaker 1: Five for some reason, the ones. It was like an

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Speaker 1: eye on a hand. I can't remember the name of him,

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Speaker 1: but at any rate, this was his there's his lands

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Speaker 1: and Slaughterhouse five. Yeah, there's a there's an alien zoo

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Speaker 1: for humans. I forgot all about that, but okay, I

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Speaker 1: just think about the horrors of world Mongola do so

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Speaker 1: in fifteen seventy he created the first English translation of

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Speaker 1: Euclid's Elements and added an influential preface that offered a

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Speaker 1: powerful manifesto en quote the dignity and usefulness of the

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Speaker 1: mathematical sciences, and he seems to certainly have highly regarded

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Speaker 1: mathematics is the key to understanding the natural world, but

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Speaker 1: also believed in the value of the occult to unlock

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Speaker 1: the deeper mysteries of the universe. And again, his ideas

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Speaker 1: of the occult and mathematics are kind of intertwined. This

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Speaker 1: is definitely going to be a theme that we returned

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Speaker 1: to over and over again in these episodes. Mathematics is

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Speaker 1: like the through line for him, whether or not he's

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Speaker 1: trying to talk to angels or if he's just trying

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Speaker 1: to plot out maps for people to discover the Northwest Passage. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I feel like his mind was inherently mathematic if he

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Speaker 1: if he had lived in our age, I feel like

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Speaker 1: he would under probably be a hacker, right or a

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Speaker 1: high level program in addition to to whatever else he

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Speaker 1: was into. The History special compared him to Stephen Hawking,

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Speaker 1: and I thought that was an interesting comparison. Although I'm

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Speaker 1: still I'm still trying to. I don't know if there's

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Speaker 1: anybody alive that that really has these two things together.

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Speaker 1: You're right, Lily and Jack Parsons are similar. But I'm

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Speaker 1: really trying to rack my brain for somebody who's like

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Speaker 1: a really influential intellectual but also dabbles in the occult right,

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Speaker 1: that's still very much an outsider in his interest and

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Speaker 1: speaking of being an outsider in his interest three three

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Speaker 1: through fifteen eighty nine, in order to unlock the deeper

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Speaker 1: mysteries of the universe, de sought communication with angelic entities

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Speaker 1: with the aid of convicted counterfeitter towards turned occult sensation

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Speaker 1: Edward Kelly, who's a very complex character and of himself

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Speaker 1: into Kelly. Uh So, so these two end up running

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Speaker 1: around conducting seances in England, Poland and Bohemia and have

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Speaker 1: this rather volatile partnership. So it's like something out of

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Speaker 1: a reality TV show, like oh, you know how like

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Speaker 1: every time on the show, on this show, when when

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Speaker 1: we do some of these historical characters are like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this would make a great amc H show. The Dr

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Speaker 1: D Edward Kelly's show would be amazing because it would

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Speaker 1: be like them constantly like conniving behind one another's backs,

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Speaker 1: and then sitting in a room looking into a crystal ball,

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Speaker 1: talking to angels, and then like trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: how to sleep with one another's wives. Yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: another situation where d described Kelly as a friend and

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Speaker 1: it makes me wonder, like what it makes me question his, uh,

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Speaker 1: his criteria for friendship because he talks about Kelly who

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Speaker 1: was arguably a scoundrel and may have been conning him

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Speaker 1: half the time at least. And then there's Queen Elizabeth,

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Speaker 1: who you know, there's no way they were really friends.

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Speaker 1: They were you know, like I say, as much of

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Speaker 1: a friendship. So you could have with the Queen of England, Uh,

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Speaker 1: that bishop I mentioned earlier. Yeah, and then his his

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Speaker 1: his the warden of his prison essentially at the time.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know, I don't know if he ever

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Speaker 1: really got friendship exactly, but it's difficult in life. So

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Speaker 1: Kelly and him, they they end up going to essentially

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Speaker 1: Poland and then Bohemia, conducting their seances all along the way,

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Speaker 1: and then they come back. Yeah, that kind of falls

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Speaker 1: comes back, their their relationship falls apart. He returns to

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Speaker 1: England nine to try and try and put things back together.

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Speaker 1: He finds his home vandalized, his library has been ransacked. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and he's also come back to in England that is

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Speaker 1: less tolerant of his ideas, increasingly less tolerant. And then

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Speaker 1: the Bubonic plague strikes and kills pretty much everybody in

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Speaker 1: his family, including his wife and five of his eight children.

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Speaker 1: So he's utterly devastated. He's lost his library, he's lost

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Speaker 1: his family. He doesn't have as much influence and says

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Speaker 1: he used to. So in fift his friends raised money

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Speaker 1: for him and interceded on his behalf with Queen Elizabeth,

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Speaker 1: you know, just trying to land him in the right place, right.

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Speaker 1: So she appoints him warden of Manchester College. And and

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Speaker 1: this is from what I was reading, this is not

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Speaker 1: an ideal place for him to wind up. He's not,

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Speaker 1: you know, he's constantly being undermined minded by other individuals there.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't have a lot of clout, but a good

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Speaker 1: way to shuffle him off and get him. So he

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Speaker 1: doesn't really have any influence over her court, but he

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Speaker 1: still feels, you know, he's cashing a paycheck. And in

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Speaker 1: sixteen o three, Queen Elizabeth dies and James the First

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Speaker 1: takes to the throne and provides no support for D. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So so for some context, James the First was fervently

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Speaker 1: against witchcraft and he personally oversaw the torture of women

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Speaker 1: who were accused of it. So he's not going to

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Speaker 1: be particularly fond of John D and his angels crying

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Speaker 1: and astrology and alca me. And then in December of

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Speaker 1: eight D dies following what is described as years of

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Speaker 1: poverty and isolation. However, it so even for someone like D,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like poverty and isolation for him is

428
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 1: you know, quite the bottom of the barrel poverty and

429
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 1: isolation like this. A lot of this is him being

430
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 1: forced to sell off a lot of his prize possessions,

431
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Maybe not the the proudest period

432
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 1: of his of his life. But I didn't read anything

433
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 1: to indicate that he was on the streets. Yeah, so,

434
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: I mean, like to get an indication. I was looking

435
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 1: at pictures of um, what Mortlake looked like his estate

436
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: and where it is now today. I think there's like

437
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: apartments right along the River Thames, and uh it's you know,

438
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: by all accounts like it was a huge house. Uh.

439
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 1: He still had a lot of things. I don't think

440
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 1: he was going hungry. I just don't think he was

441
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 1: wealthy or had influence over the aristocracy the way he

442
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 1: might ride in the past. Um, now here's this is

443
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 1: really interesting. There's also evident that he didn't actually die

444
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 1: in December, uh, and that he three months later was

445
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 1: when he died in the following March in the London

446
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 1: home of an acquaintance. So get ready out there conspiracy things,

447
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: because I'm sure there's a lot of people out there

448
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: who are like, oh, John D found the Philosopher's Stone

449
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 1: and his immortal and uh is still with us today

450
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: or something, or these are fake accounts of his death,

451
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: you know, stuff like that. But the amazing thing about

452
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: D is it's all everything is already unbelievable enough with

453
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: how to even going into the conjecture of conspiracy theory. Uh,

454
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: though there's a lot of fun to be had there

455
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 1: as well. Um. Hey, on that note, we're gonna take

456
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 1: a quick break, and when we come back, we are

457
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: going to break into the spirituality of John D and

458
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: ultimately into his occult practices. Hi. I'm Holly Fry, and

459
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson and We're the co host of

460
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: stuff you missed in history class. We are a history

461
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 1: podcast that tries to look at the things that maybe

462
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: we're overlooked in your street classes, maybe not covered in

463
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: as much detail, or frankly, maybe covered in a way

464
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 1: that was not accurate. New episodes come out every Monday

465
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: and Wednesday on iTunes, Google Play, Spotify, or anywhere else

466
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: that podcasts can be listened to. So it's important to

467
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 1: remember that that D was born into an age and

468
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: a place of Christendom. So yes, everyone still murdered each

469
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 1: other every year over their beliefs, and much of this

470
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: entailed conflicts of Protestants versus Catholics, the Church versus heretics,

471
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: and so forth. Uh, you really had to go quite

472
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 1: rustic or quite esoteric in order to find alternative modes

473
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: of belief that you could, you know, actually embrace all

474
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 1: of the stranger ideas that D entangled himself with astrology,

475
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: angelic communication, magic, etcetera. These were all still connected to

476
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: the culture of Christianity into the essentially like the mythos

477
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: of Christianity, I guess you'd say. And there's a lot

478
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: of evidence to suggest that D was a devoted Christian

479
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: his entire life, though certainly in a challenging time for

480
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: the faithful, which I guess it always is, uh, and

481
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 1: he was he was not afraid to explore ideas and

482
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 1: writings that others deemed dangerous to the faithful. And it's

483
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: also worth noting here that like a guy like d

484
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: who you know, you can say was a weird guy,

485
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: he had a he had a unique brain. He had

486
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: a unique view of everything, this ability to see magic

487
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 1: and mathematics and everything else wrapped up into one. So

488
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: he could, you know, cling to a Christian faith. But

489
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: his view of the Christian faith was was and it

490
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: was inherently different I think from from most people's at

491
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: the time. Yeah, I think it was different. But at

492
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: the same the way I like to think of it

493
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: is that he was into Christian mysticism right, and that

494
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 1: like he he he was a believer. He was trying

495
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: to do the right thing. I think he was trying

496
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: to ride the line between Protestantism in Catholicism so that

497
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: he basically could stay alive. Um, but that the stuff

498
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 1: that he believed was the mystical parts that were sort

499
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: of like some people were like, oh yeah, that that

500
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: that exists. I don't know if I subscribed to that

501
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: or not. And others were like, oh, yeah, that's part

502
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, talking to angels sure, uh, looking into

503
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: crystal balls, Yeah, definitely astrology. Okay, you know, Um in

504
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: the same way, I don't know, I'm like trying to

505
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: think of a modern day example, Like, I guess Cabala

506
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: keeps coming to mind, and that's not even modern day.

507
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: I mean Cabrala was around at the time of D

508
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: was alive. Um, so maybe that's an example. And he

509
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: mentioned astrology. D kept a private diary where he mentioned

510
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: a lot of when he now comes from his own writings,

511
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: but this was a time before diaries and calendars of

512
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: the modern sort. So D would would plot out the

513
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: positions of the planets in reference to the recorded details

514
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: of his daily life, likely in order to identify links

515
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: between his personal life and celestial events. So it's an

516
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: uncharacteristically intimate account of it, Liz BeFAN life, much of

517
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: it lost, however, but still there's a there's a lot there.

518
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: It's kind of been written in shorthand, and it will

519
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: include things like you know, his personal finances, jobs he

520
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: picked up. Um, I actually have an example here from

521
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: his diary October seven, My anger with Edward my coke

522
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: because of his disorder. October eight Mr Richard Western lent

523
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: me ten pounds for a year. October nine, I dined

524
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: with Sir Walter Rawleigh at Durham House. October eleven to

525
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: Edwards part of wagons. Mr Banks lent me upon loan

526
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: till after Christmas five pounds. Mr Emery sent me three

527
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: pounds by my servant Richard walka dine. So it's that

528
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: sort of thing. So it's just like kind of acquiring

529
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: like a couple of pounds here, a couple of pounds

530
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: there for his services presumably. I mean, I doubt that

531
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: they're just giving it to him as donations. Maybe he

532
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: read their horoscope or maybe he I don't know, I

533
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: wrote a map for them or something. Yeah, it's kind

534
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: of like an it's kind of like he kept an

535
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: astrologically aligned chart of his finances to a certain extent

536
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: in these and he was doing a lot of freelance

537
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: activities like to to Sup because he's a guy who's

538
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: spent a lot of money on books and UH and

539
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: his uh, his his interests, and to support that he

540
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: would do freelance horoscopes, you have freelance dream interpretations. And

541
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: I was even reading that he occasionally did some freelance

542
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: forensics work. Account of him apparently of him weighing in

543
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: on a robbery, uh and deciding who was who was guilty.

544
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: It's kind of it's kind of faint going from his notes,

545
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: but that seems to be the case. So d believed

546
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: in a natural magic. When we start talking about his

547
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: use of magic and his belief in magic and his magic,

548
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: that's tied up with mathematics. He saw magic as the

549
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 1: human ability to tap into the forces that God unleashed

550
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 1: when he created the cosmos, and that set things in motion.

551
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: So that's important, not not the power of God, but

552
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: the powers that God unleashed. Yeah, he saw natural magic

553
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: as actually a legitimate study of science, and in his

554
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: own books he listed the magical arts as being a

555
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: derivative subject of mathematics. Keep in mind that his thought

556
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: process wasn't unusual at the time. Many thought science and

557
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: magic were different facets to just understand understand what was

558
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: going on in the mind of God. Yeah, and it's

559
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: interesting too to look at his thoughts on magic that

560
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: he's essentially talking about technology here, granted with a lot

561
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: of occult bells and whistles, but he's talking about figuring

562
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: out how these forces in the universe work and figuring

563
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: out how to manipulate those forces. You know, it's a

564
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: really interesting connection to to the magic as technology thing

565
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: for him. When he was in college, he created special

566
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: effects for a production of Aristophanes packs and he was

567
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: branded Sorcerer because of it. He apparently built a giant

568
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: mechanical flying scare of I don't know if it actually flew,

569
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: but it was. It was like an automaton, and it

570
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: was apparently so realistic to the people who were watching

571
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: it that they they were like, oh, he must have

572
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 1: used magic to do this, but it was just engineering. Yeah,

573
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: this was a crazy moment in his life, and his

574
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: life was just full of these where yeah, he just

575
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: did FX for a play and the FX were so

576
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: good that people said, well, that was pretty amazing. This

577
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: guy is probably somehow involved with demonic forces, was the

578
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 1: only excuse. And I was reading like people weren't really

579
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: sure exactly how he pulled it off, too, because he

580
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: would have had limited resources with the stage at that time,

581
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: so it's not we're not even exactly sure what he did,

582
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: how he achieved the effect, but but he certainly what

583
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: was I think it was pretty clear that he was

584
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: using practical effects and not not actual sourcery here. Um.

585
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 1: Another thing that we should note here too, especially before

586
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: we really get into his angelic communicate Shan, is that

587
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 1: the idea of an angelic language, which is referred to

588
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: as a Nochian, is said to be the mathematics behind

589
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 1: how creation was was made. So you know, keep in mind,

590
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: like as we're going through all of this, he's thinking

591
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: of his interrogations of angels as being scientific in nature

592
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: and that he's trying to understand how the world works. Yes. Yeah,

593
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: so in a sense, the Anochian language and mathematics are

594
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 1: like one is the secular and one is the spiritual

595
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: version of the same idea that there's this underlying word,

596
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 1: there's this underlying system that we can understand, tap into

597
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: and therefore gain insight into how the universe works. Yeah. Alright,

598
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: so here's the juicy stuff, the angelic communication. So he

599
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 1: really wanted to communicate with angels to help him understand

600
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 1: natural knowledge, and the way he did this was by

601
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: attempting to conjure spirits using a crystal and this was

602
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: and at the time. Yeah, and it's I want to

603
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: add real quick for anyone out there is not familiar

604
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: with with Christianity and angels and all that, because I

605
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: found myself trying to explain angels to my son the

606
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: other that's gonna about it, about what angels were, uh,

607
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: And I didn't tell him all of this. But in

608
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: the in the Christian tradition, the angels, of course, the

609
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: the servants of God. They are powerful and at times

610
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: very terrifying beings that do everything from deliver messages to

611
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 1: you know, destroy whole cities and turn people into pillars

612
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: of salt, that sort of thing. I I wrote a

613
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 1: video that we shot here about different types of angels

614
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: throughout Christian mysticism, and there's like, you know, there's the

615
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: thrones and the dominions and they're all there's like nine

616
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 1: different categories. I think cherubs yeah, uh and yeah, I

617
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 1: mean they're utterly alien and terrifying when you think about

618
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 1: them from the context of these time. Yeah. Um, So

619
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: we're not the fluffy cherubs of the modern version of

620
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: the the cherubs or Renaissance chairub that you see on

621
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: a coffee mug or something. Yeah. No, not at all,

622
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 1: not at all. Some of them were like wheels of

623
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 1: burning fire with eyeballs in the middle and stuff. I mean,

624
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: like truly horrifying kind of imagery. Yeah. Fantasy illustrator Michael Caluda, great, Yeah,

625
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: he did a number of angel illustrations for a short

626
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 1: lived card game called Harresy Kingdom Come Back in the nineties,

627
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 1: and he did a fabulous dut job invoking this. I

628
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: feel like that this this potent, intimidating alien but also

629
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 1: kind of but also holly feeling vision of of an

630
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 1: angelic entity. So I always connected those when I try

631
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: and think about these these angelic beings as we encounter

632
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: in uh in Christian tradition, and I imagine as D

633
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 1: was performing these seances that we're about to talk about,

634
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: although he didn't really see anything himself, that's what he

635
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: was imagining was in the room with him. So why

636
00:36:55,560 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: didn't he see anything himself? Well, D himself couldn't see spirits,

637
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: so he relied on psychics enter Edward Kelly. So, Edward Kelly,

638
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: uh is this twenty six year old cunning man. You

639
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 1: may have heard us talk about cunning men before on

640
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 1: the show. I was referring to them in an episode

641
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: of UM when we were talking about Warren Ellis's book

642
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: Cunning Plans, because cunning men are sort of I guess

643
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 1: the best way to explain it real quickly is just

644
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: like an English shamanic tradition maybe. Um. And but he

645
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: was also, you know, a criminal and a counterfeitter. He

646
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: had his ears cropped from his head before he met D.

647
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 1: So think about that when you're thinking about this guy,

648
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 1: at least one of them. And he apparently always wore

649
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: a cowl to cover up the garage, and that was

650
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: for counterfeiting coins. Um. Okay, So D and Kelly they

651
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 1: meet for the first time in fIF two. Yeah, and this,

652
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: this whole episode had there There's a lot more detail,

653
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: but I just try to go through the basics here.

654
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: So Kelly was calling himself Talbot at the time, which

655
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 1: was one of his his aliases. And uh, and it's

656
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: I think it's certainly fitting that even his introduction to

657
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: D was was clothed in deception. So he was apparently

658
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: he was apparently a pretty charismatic character. As we've talked about.

659
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: He had difficulty kneeling, he walked with the staff and

660
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 1: he's a young dude, but but he also had had

661
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: at least one ear cropped uh for for for engaging

662
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 1: in counterfeiting. He also may have served as a crooked

663
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: notary in London at one port. At one point reputed

664
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: to have dabbled in necromancy. He arrived at D's to

665
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: lie low after allegedly cheating a lady out of some jewels.

666
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,399
Speaker 1: But he seems to have to have talked his way

667
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: out of trouble with with the individuals who were pursuing

668
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: him over this, and in his private diary, D noted

669
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: that quote I have confirmed that Talbot was was a fraud.

670
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 1: And Kelly himself came along later at some point and

671
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,720
Speaker 1: scribbled indeed's diary a horrible and sat under his life,

672
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: which which I think says a lot about this friendship. UM.

673
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: And so that, yeah, their friendship seems to have been

674
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: rather complicated. Uh D seems to have considered him a friend,

675
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: and certainly it would go on to spend a great

676
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: deal of time with him in the years they had,

677
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 1: but it's also a quarrelsome intense relationship. And to what

678
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 1: extent was Kelly using d To what extent did D

679
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: c himself is using Kelly if he saw he saw

680
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: perhaps Kelly as a as an in the way of

681
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: of of better communicating with this spiritual realm um. So

682
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,240
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a complex relationship again. So D's diary

683
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: recounts a series of conversations with angels that Kelly facilitated,

684
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: and the hope was that D would get these angels

685
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,240
Speaker 1: to help him recover the original language spoken by Adam

686
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: before the confusion at Babel, which you know we referred

687
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: to earlier as a nokian um. And the way that

688
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 1: we know about this was the spirit diaries were actually

689
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 1: dug up in a field ten years after his death,

690
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: and in them is a completely new language with its

691
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 1: own grammar and syntax. Uh. The angels supposedly provided him

692
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: with the Anochian language, which they said was the er

693
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,799
Speaker 1: language of humanity. And I want to I want to

694
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: add one thing in here, which is that you know,

695
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 1: as I was reading through all this stuff, I was

696
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: utterly convinced that Edward Kelly was scamming D the whole time,

697
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: and that he was just making up the names of

698
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: these angel characters and performing there whatever their traits were,

699
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: and just making the whole thing up. But Alan Moore

700
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 1: in that History Channel thing points out, sure, that's probably true,

701
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 1: but how on earth did somebody like Edward Kelly invent

702
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 1: an entire language on the fly. He wasn't a linguistics expert.

703
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 1: He would have had to have been a genius to

704
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: just create a fake language out of nowhere. And people

705
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: have since studied and Ochi and have looked over these

706
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 1: notes and it's you know, it functions as a language,

707
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: so uh that you know, the big question is like, well, Okay,

708
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 1: if he wasn't talking to angels, how did Edward Kelly

709
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: come up with this stuff? Yeah? Because you're left with

710
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: a few possibilities here. As I understand, it's either, ay,

711
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 1: he actually did come up with this this material, and

712
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: there's some questions about about whether or not he had

713
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: the background to do it. Um the other possibility and

714
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 1: this seems this seems to to square with what we

715
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: know about his his character. Perhaps he stole it from

716
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: somewhere he he copied it from someone else, and we're

717
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: just there's a there's a certain amount of ambiguity about

718
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 1: where that might have been, where where it might have

719
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: been stolen from. Yeah, and that we don't know now. Kelly,

720
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: as he was looking through his crystal ball or his

721
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 1: scrying mirror, said that the angels were angry with humanity

722
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 1: for being captivated by anything but God, and they described

723
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: to d the order of the Cosmos, instructions for rituals

724
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 1: and predictions of the future, as well as the Anochian language.

725
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: Their major pronouncement was that that they wanted the world

726
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: to be united under a single religion that united all

727
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:18,280
Speaker 1: the denominations of Christianity along with Judaism and Islam. So essentially,

728
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: you know, four hundred years ago, these angels quote unquote,

729
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: we're advocating for globalism. So it's kind of fascinating when

730
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: you think about it, especially like if we consider like

731
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 1: Kelly was probably making the whole thing up. He was

732
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:37,839
Speaker 1: like advocating for this very like futuristic idea of socioeconomics.

733
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's fascinating. Yeah, I can easily imagine

734
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:46,399
Speaker 1: a scenario where where one of these angels is saying, look, Christianity,

735
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 1: juda Judaism, Islam, these uh, these factions are not gonna

736
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 1: work everything out in the foreseeable future. Better that we

737
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 1: just combine it all into one and then everybody can

738
00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 1: be unified. Now. For Kelly's part, as you know, as

739
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: he's relaying these messages from the angels, he's also saying

740
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: to D, these angels are actually demons, and I'm terrified

741
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,399
Speaker 1: to them because they know that I previously had participated

742
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,720
Speaker 1: in some demonic grim wire magic um, and D was like, nope,

743
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: we've got to continue. I absolutely insisted that we continue.

744
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: I mean, Kelly was basically like a prisoner INDs home

745
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: um and the two of them even asked the angels

746
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 1: for money at one point, and Kelly reportedly asked them

747
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,439
Speaker 1: for a loan, like like they were gonna make money

748
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 1: appear out of nowhere and then he would give it

749
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 1: back to them or something. I don't know. So and

750
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 1: and keep in mind too, it's very likely that this

751
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 1: is all just a fiction in his own head that

752
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: he's enacting in front of D for D's purposes, right,

753
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: But then also, I mean, when when you're when you're

754
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: dealing with this kind of magic and and if you're

755
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 1: considering this some sort of demonic entity that you're you're

756
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 1: communicating with, uh, I mean that that has some very

757
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 1: real life ramifications, not an age where you can just

758
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 1: walk around on the street and talk about your conversations

759
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 1: with demons. So while they're in the middle of all this,

760
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: and they're they're working at a more like they uh

761
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,919
Speaker 1: come into contact with the third party. And this guy's name,

762
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: he's a Polish prince in his name is Lord Albert Laski. Uh.

763
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 1: And he had visited England and claimed that he was

764
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 1: there simply to meet the queen and enjoy the sceneries. Uh.

765
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: He had previously been suspected of trying to steal the

766
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:31,399
Speaker 1: Polish throne. Everybody's trying to steal a throne in this story. Yeah,

767
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: I think that's an important thing to keep in mind

768
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 1: about the about the European setting at the time is

769
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 1: this was not an age of stability. This was an

770
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: age of tense politics, an age of war, an age

771
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 1: of of rather robust espionage, um coded messages going back

772
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: and forth, and and people people dying when these codes

773
00:44:55,280 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: are unraveled. So Laski's involvement with these guys is weird

774
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 1: and debated, and Robert and I had to look to

775
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 1: a couple of different books to try to figure out

776
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 1: how much we could, you know, resolve as to what

777
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,760
Speaker 1: was his involvement in the situation. Apparently he started showing

778
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 1: up at the seances, and this was considered problematic, I

779
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: think by Kelly because there was a third party involved there,

780
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 1: probably because Kelly was afraid that he would get caught um.

781
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 1: But also the idea was basically like, why would you

782
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: why would you sit on these seances? Some demon could

783
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 1: come out and destroy you. You know, it's like this

784
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,879
Speaker 1: horribly scary thing. There's also, you know, some question about

785
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 1: whether or not he was an informer, either for Poland

786
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: or possibly the Holy Roman Empire UM. Either way, it

787
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: seems that he was the one who eventually leads them

788
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: to Poland. UM and the story goes that he was

789
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 1: duped by Edward Kelly and the whole scrying thing, and

790
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 1: he believed that great things were meant for Kelly uh

791
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: And so he convinces them to return to Poland with

792
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 1: him in fifteen eighty three, and they pack up their

793
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: whole family, uh and all their stuff with them, except

794
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: for the library, this huge library. Uh. Now, there's a

795
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: lot of stuff that goes on in Poland. We'll get

796
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 1: into that. But when they get there, their experiments, whatever

797
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: they were doing, I think it was alchemical in nature

798
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 1: were so costly that Laski lost his fortune and lands

799
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 1: trying to fund the two of their work. And when

800
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 1: it became apparent that he couldn't afford this any longer, uh,

801
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 1: the spirits began to express their doubts through Kelly that

802
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 1: Laski may not have been the right man to bring

803
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: about the changes in Europe that they desired. Yeah. Now,

804
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 1: this is a period of time where where Kelly just

805
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 1: increasingly seems like he's just a con artist, you know,

806
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: making promises of gold, like generating gold through alchemy for

807
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 1: his benefactors, and then here when things don't go as planned,

808
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 1: when he can't deliver, he cast doubt on has been factors. Yeah,

809
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 1: and and in the way that Laski basically gets rid

810
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: of them, as he says, you know, I'm gonna pay

811
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 1: for you guys to go to Prague and I'll provide

812
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: you with a letter of introduction to Emperor Rudolph the

813
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: second his problem. Now, now we I think we mentioned

814
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: this in the you know, the short bio at the beginning,

815
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: but apparently, you know, Rudolph threw d out of the

816
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 1: Holy Roman Empire. Now, some say it was because he

817
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 1: suspected that D was an English spy. Now, considering you

818
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 1: know what we know about D and cryptography and statecraft,

819
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: maybe he was. We're gonna talk about that more in

820
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: the next episode. But there's also evidence that the angels

821
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 1: told D that he needed to go to Rudolph and

822
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: tell Rudolph that he was possessed by demons. Now, the

823
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: Catholic Church were aware of this, and they considered D

824
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 1: and Kelly a threat. Think about this though, Like, in

825
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 1: context of the time, D is so much of a

826
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: believer in what Kelly is telling him that he's willing

827
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,959
Speaker 1: to go to the Emperor and be like, sorry, you're

828
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 1: possessed by demons and you you know you need to

829
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: really turn your life around. Why don't you listen to us?

830
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 1: I mean, that's an executable offense. Luckily he just was exiled. Now,

831
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 1: it seems that D was very sincere about this, while

832
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 1: it also seems that Kelly was probably duping him and

833
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 1: their relationship lasted for ten years. Here's where it all

834
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 1: falls apart. So the angels told them to swap wives.

835
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: Sounds again, It sounds like reality TV show to me. Uh,

836
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 1: there's this angel that they keep communicating with named Medemi,

837
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 1: and she's described as being kind of this um, I

838
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: don't know, like coquettish little girl that uh Kelly would

839
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 1: describers like running around the room and stuff. And she

840
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 1: told them, you guys have to share all things in common,

841
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: and they interpreted that as meaning their wives. Now, Jane

842
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: d was D's wife at the time. She was his

843
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 1: third wife. He'd had two previous wives who died I

844
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 1: believe of illness. She was much younger than him. I

845
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 1: think she was in like her mid twenties and he

846
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 1: was in his fifties. And she was reportedly very upset

847
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 1: about this because, by all accounts, Edward Kelly was not

848
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: uh an attractive man or you know, a trustworthy man.

849
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: So the last thing she wanted to do was have

850
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 1: to sleep with this guy. But D thought it was

851
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 1: a valid command from the angels, especially because then even

852
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 1: D was like, hey, I need some uh some confirmation

853
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 1: on this. So Kelly's like, okay, let me look into

854
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: the screwing ball over here, and he summons the angel Uriel,

855
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 1: who's like a pretty high up in the hierarchy of angels,

856
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 1: and Uriel confirms that He's like, yep, you guys have

857
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 1: to share everything. So two days after they drew up

858
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 1: their wife swapping contract, then the Scarlet Woman Babylon appeared

859
00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: to Kelly. Now some of you may recognize this from

860
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 1: like a Crowley in magic. Uh. She's also known as

861
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 1: the Horror of Babylon and revelations. This was so scary

862
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,800
Speaker 1: to them, or at least two d that they parted

863
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 1: ways and their sessions ceased forever they they they their

864
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 1: relationship ended. Kelly ended up wandering around Bohemia, and he

865
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 1: then convinces Rudolph the Second, Hey, I know alchemy. I

866
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,399
Speaker 1: might be able to use the Philosopher's Stone to make

867
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 1: you gold. Yeah, and this would uh, this would seem

868
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,879
Speaker 1: to be the just to spell the final chapter of

869
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,759
Speaker 1: of Edward Kelly's life. You know, at this point the

870
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 1: story I really D and Kelly certainly kind of created,

871
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: seemed to have created like codependently, their their own little

872
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 1: crazy trip here and uh and I feel feel bad

873
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 1: for the women that were sucked along the way. But

874
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: things finally come apart. They come to pe says, I

875
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: feel like D is the character who certainly comes out

876
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 1: off as more honest, more devout, whereas, as you know,

877
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:10,720
Speaker 1: Kelly is is probably just a con artist who's also

878
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: buying into certain amounts of his own con So I

879
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 1: don't think one should take solace from such things. But

880
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 1: it seems that Kelly died in fifteen seven or fifty

881
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: in a check castle where he was imprisoned for failing

882
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 1: to produce that alchemist gold, and he apparently died from

883
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:34,320
Speaker 1: injuries sustained while trying to escape. According to Benjamin Woolly's book, Um,

884
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,839
Speaker 1: Kelly tried to climb from the window on a rope

885
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 1: of knotted sheets, you know, just like in the movies,

886
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 1: and then fell, breaking both legs. And this was after

887
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 1: drugging the guards with opium smuggled in by his wife Joanna.

888
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:52,719
Speaker 1: This guy, yeah d later writes that he'd heard that

889
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 1: Kelly quote had been Swain, and there were rumors that

890
00:51:57,560 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 1: that Kelly, even at the time, had faked his own

891
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 1: death and was continuing to practice alchemy in southern Germany

892
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 1: or possibly Russia. But then and then the conspiracy theorists

893
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 1: would say like he went on to live for hundreds

894
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 1: of years, and he was resputing. But I have a feeling,

895
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 1: and it seems like the more historians tend to agree

896
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,799
Speaker 1: that yeah, he probably fell out of that fell from

897
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 1: that that that rope of sheets and broke both his

898
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 1: legs and then subsequently died of the injuries. Yeah, that

899
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: sounds right to me. So why don't we take one

900
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 1: more break, and then let's talk about the sort of

901
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:41,240
Speaker 1: spiritual artifacts that come up after D's death. I'm Kristin

902
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: Conger and I'm Caroline Irvan, and together we host a

903
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 1: podcast stuff Mom never told you that gets down to

904
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 1: the business of being women from every imaginable angle. New

905
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: episodes come out Mondays and Wednesdays on iTunes, Google Play, Spotify,

906
00:52:56,320 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 1: or wherever else you get your podcasts. All right, we're back.

907
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 1: So D was for for whatever else D was, And

908
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 1: certainly he was a lot of things again, all kind

909
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,760
Speaker 1: of woven together. He was certainly a collector of occult

910
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:18,759
Speaker 1: paraphernalia and occult books. Uh. And we still have some

911
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 1: of these spiritual artifacts. The British Museum retains ownership of

912
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 1: several items that he and and Kelly utilized in seances

913
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 1: and other rights. So we've already talked about these extensive

914
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:34,319
Speaker 1: library and you can think of it in these terms.

915
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 1: This is the way that D divided it. You had

916
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 1: the external bibliotheca, which is the external library. You had

917
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 1: several rooms or appendices which led off from the library,

918
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:50,400
Speaker 1: and in these dependencies of visitors to his home, described

919
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 1: celestial and terrestrial globes, a five foot quadrant, a ten

920
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 1: foot to cross staff, a sa compass, an accurate quote

921
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:04,800
Speaker 1: watch clock, uh portable time piece, various marvels from his travels.

922
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 1: And these rooms also housed his libraries laboratories, so where

923
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 1: multiple skills bubbled. You know, it sounds like a complete

924
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 1: uh you know, set from a hammer horror film. Yeah,

925
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,800
Speaker 1: there's no uh, it's not a coincidence that our modern

926
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 1: day idea of what a wizard or a sorcerer looks

927
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 1: like is d We had that idea of him in

928
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 1: the robe with a big, long white beard. Yeah, we

929
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 1: have some various we have various illustrations of of what

930
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 1: he looked like, and I think there's probably one is

931
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,280
Speaker 1: the cover image for this episode. So you have already

932
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:39,240
Speaker 1: have an idea in your head. But yeah, he looked

933
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 1: like our modern conception of a wizard. So he had

934
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 1: he had all these these rooms filling off from the library,

935
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 1: from the external library, but then there was also the

936
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 1: internal bibliotheca, the private study an adjoining chapel, and there

937
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 1: was also an adjoining chapel where, to quote Wullie, he

938
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 1: presumably shelved the Bibles and devotion text so conspicuously lacking

939
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:08,240
Speaker 1: from the catalogs of the external bibliotheca, but the internal bibliotheca,

940
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 1: the internal library, this is where he stored his magical equipment,

941
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 1: his confidential writings, and certain books of frequent use. And uh,

942
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 1: by the way, this, if this sounds like a rather

943
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 1: costly man cave, you're right. Uh it steadily became unsustainable

944
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 1: on his mirror eighty pound annual stipend from his rectory

945
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:32,319
Speaker 1: at Long Leadenham, And so he provided. This is why

946
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:36,720
Speaker 1: he provided a number of freelance services, including tutoring, astrological readings,

947
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 1: dream interpretation, medical consultations and forensic advice, which already mentioned.

948
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 1: So uh. Among the various items in his possession, again,

949
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 1: a few of them survived this day, and one of

950
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 1: them is uh Dr D's Magical mirror, also known as

951
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 1: Dr D's Magical Speculum. That I don't know where we're going,

952
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:02,240
Speaker 1: but this already sounds bad. So there's some wonderful images

953
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 1: of this, and I'll try to include some on the

954
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:05,839
Speaker 1: landing page for this episode of Stuff to Blow Your

955
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 1: Mind dot com. The Black Mirror here this uh, this

956
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 1: magical mirror. It's probably not quite what you would imagine

957
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 1: if someone asks you to envision on elizabethan sorcerer's mirror.

958
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:21,360
Speaker 1: It looks rather like part of an Ikea coffee table. Actually,

959
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 1: it's an obsidian quote smoking mirror, so named because the

960
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,720
Speaker 1: squire gazing into the mirror would see clouds of smoke,

961
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,759
Speaker 1: which would part to reveal a vision. Uh. And and

962
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 1: this is definitely an item that Edward Kelly made use

963
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 1: of as well. Apparently it's of Aztec origin, brought to

964
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 1: Europe after the conquest of Mexico, acquired by Dr d

965
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 1: for use in his magical pursuits in the late sixteenth century.

966
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:51,200
Speaker 1: Perhaps created though up to two centuries earlier in Mexico.

967
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 1: And this is in the British Museum. Yeah, it's a obsidian.

968
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 1: There's a wood case covered in tooled leather with label

969
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 1: and handwriting of one Horace Walpole and a quotation from

970
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:06,319
Speaker 1: a Samuel Butler poem. So do you think this is

971
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 1: where the idea for the title of the show Black

972
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 1: Mirror came from? I have. I've never seen there, I've

973
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 1: never seen any connective tissue there, but I couldn't help

974
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 1: but think of it. You know, the scrying mirror. I

975
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 1: know that the black mirror that on the TV show

976
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 1: is you know, supposed to have to do with like

977
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 1: the the the the black screens of personal devices. But

978
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:30,760
Speaker 1: it does make me think too now about scrying mirrors,

979
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 1: and I wonder, yeah, I wondered to what extent a

980
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 1: smoking mirror is invoked in that. Now, this is not

981
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 1: to be confused with the strange mirror. Uh, just as

982
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 1: as it was sometimes called that was given to D

983
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 1: by one William Pickering the quote great perspective glass, and

984
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 1: this apparently stood in a corner of his study, and

985
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 1: according to Wully, anyone who lunged at the glass with

986
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 1: a dagger found their reflection lunging back at them quote

987
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 1: with like hand, sword or or dagger, creating an unsettling effect,

988
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 1: but one that D would use to explain how all

989
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 1: strange effects could be explained by the mathematics of perspective.

990
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 1: So this was not something that he apparently used in

991
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 1: occult practices. And I guess, based on what we know

992
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 1: about it, it would have been a nonreversing mirror, of

993
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 1: which there's a few different varieties, and the Queen herself

994
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 1: apparently once stood before this mirror. Now he also had

995
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 1: two crystal balls, one of which good Old Edward Kelly

996
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 1: or Talbot used to see uriel. Uh. There's the seal

997
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 1: of God or Sigillum. Day used to support other occult

998
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 1: objects such as the crystals. This is also in the

999
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 1: British Museum, so this would have been kind of you know,

1000
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 1: the table for their their other objects. Uh. There there

1001
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 1: are the crystals themselves, one of which is in the

1002
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 1: British Museum. John D's crystal used for a clairvoyance and

1003
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 1: for curing disease metal in courts uh from around fIF two.

1004
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 1: You can also see images of this. So it's it's

1005
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 1: fascinating we have some of the magical artifacts of his life,

1006
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 1: of his time still with us today. He Yeah, I

1007
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 1: can't help but think about again, like the research that

1008
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 1: we did about grimoires in that uh, that a lot

1009
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:22,680
Speaker 1: of those were created I think earlier than Day's time,

1010
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 1: but he's still relying on a lot of the I

1011
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: guess magical thinking would be the right way to put it.

1012
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:33,520
Speaker 1: Um that surrounded those texts and then applied them to

1013
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 1: objects in the way that we now understand as being

1014
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:40,920
Speaker 1: just like part of fantasy genre of like, well, this

1015
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 1: is how a wizard works. They have a staff and

1016
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 1: a crystal and a huge library. Right. Uh. Yeah, it's

1017
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 1: interesting that you know, certainly Merlin is the the the

1018
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:58,080
Speaker 1: the the perfect example of the the the English wizarding character.

1019
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:00,680
Speaker 1: And it's certainly a character that, uh, that had an

1020
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 1: influence on D. But then D himself becomes this this

1021
01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 1: influential icon of of English wizardry. Uh. And it's almost

1022
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 1: certain that William Shakespeare modeled the character of Prospero in

1023
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:17,160
Speaker 1: The Tempest on the character of D. Yeah. Uh and

1024
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 1: interesting again, tying it back to the whole Allen Moore thing.

1025
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:24,200
Speaker 1: In Ellen Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentleman, Prospero shows up

1026
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 1: as a character and it's heavily implied that he is

1027
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 1: John D. You know, speaking of sort of modern interpretations

1028
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 1: as of looking around. Uh. Interestingly enough, Rocky horror mastermind

1029
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 1: Richard O'Brien played Dr D in the nine film Jubilee,

1030
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:43,480
Speaker 1: which is kind of like a time traveling elizabe Ethan Thing.

1031
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 1: Actor David Threlfall played both the Prospero and Dr John

1032
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 1: d uh the later in the second Elizabeth movie. Okay, yeah,

1033
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 1: I was gonna adde because there's been these Elizabeth movies

1034
01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 1: and I thought they must have included D somehow. Yeah.

1035
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:00,240
Speaker 1: I have not seen the Golden Age, but he only

1036
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:02,880
Speaker 1: he shows up in that, as do some of these

1037
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 1: other characters, especially ones will discuss in the next episode

1038
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 1: that deals a little more closely with his you know,

1039
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:13,360
Speaker 1: his real world pursuits. And then wait a minute, there's

1040
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 1: a note here about Terrence McKenna. Yeah, so this largely

1041
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:21,560
Speaker 1: according to the Internet Movie Database, Terrence McKenna played D

1042
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 1: in The Alchemical Dream Rebirth of the Great Work and

1043
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:29,240
Speaker 1: the whole You can find the whole thing on YouTube.

1044
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:32,840
Speaker 1: Uh it seems like he just like McKenna, just narrates it.

1045
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 1: I didn't watch the whole thing, but I didn't. I

1046
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 1: didn't notice a scene in which he dresses up as D.

1047
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 1: But still that's like, um, I don't know, like modern

1048
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:48,520
Speaker 1: day quote magicians slash psychedelic psychonauts dream come true. That's

1049
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:51,200
Speaker 1: kind of a thing. Yeah, so it's interesting to see

1050
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 1: these influence in uh in in modern society. And entertainment.

1051
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:59,040
Speaker 1: There they're a whole list of of examples. And we're

1052
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:00,920
Speaker 1: not even gonna get into where d shows up in

1053
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:04,480
Speaker 1: various fictional works to varying degrees, either as a as

1054
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:08,080
Speaker 1: an amazing side character or occasionally as a central character.

1055
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:13,000
Speaker 1: Huh well, okay, so I feel like we've covered as

1056
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 1: well as we can in the time available to us

1057
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 1: the occult magical aspects of D. Now we're gonna cut

1058
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 1: this episode and our next episode this week is going

1059
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:29,720
Speaker 1: to be all about his contributions to science, to state

1060
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:34,120
Speaker 1: craft and cryptography. That's right, So pick up with us

1061
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 1: again in the next episode and we will dive into more,

1062
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:41,880
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