1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm joeld On Matt and 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: today we're talking solutions from money anxiety with financial therapist 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: Lindsay Brian Podvin. Yeah, so there's more to money than 4 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: just figuring out the financial nuts and bolts right. Money 5 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: has an emotional and psychological component to it as well, 6 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: which is at the core of what our guest today 7 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: focuses on. We're happy to be joined by Lindsay Brian Podvin, 8 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: who happens to be the first financial therapist in the 9 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: state of Michigan. She is a social worker turn financial 10 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: therapist and she's also the author of the book The 11 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: Financial Anxiety Solution, which is a workbook to help folks 12 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: to stop stressing about money by applying therapy techniques to 13 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: your relationship with money. So we're excited to talk about 14 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: the thoughts and the feelings behind money and how you 15 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: can improve your financial well being today, Lindsay, thank you 16 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: so much for joining us on the podcast. I am 17 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: so so happy to be here, Lindsay, We're glad to 18 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: have you And yeah, this is gonna be a really fun, 19 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: interesting conversation because Matt and I we touch on this 20 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 1: stuff sometimes on the show, but We're no expert. You are, 21 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: so we want to pick your brain. But the first 22 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: question we ask everyone who comes on the show is 23 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: what do you like to sport? John? Matt and I 24 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: we sport John craft beer, and so we want to 25 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: know while you're saving the investing for the future, what 26 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: what's your craft beer equivalent. My splurge is very so. 27 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: My partner and I do fun money at the beginning 28 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: of every month, so I usually save up a little 29 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: bit and then we'll go get a facial or a 30 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: massage every other month. But it isn't always a spa day. 31 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: This month, um, I spent my fun money and a 32 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: little bit of last month's fun money because I saved 33 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: up to buy a nice shiny new nose ring that 34 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: you had the opportunity to see before we hit record. 35 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: So I'm sorry I did not compliment. It's some nice 36 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: new bling, so I'm really excited about it. I like 37 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 1: that you you rotated to your like and that you 38 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: put it in your budget. But then you're like, yeah, 39 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: you know, whatever I want with it. The world is 40 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: kind of your exactly, yes, exactly, And that's how I 41 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: kind of scratched that It's to be a little bit 42 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: spontaneous without blowing the spending plan. Yeah, make room for 43 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: that item or experience or service, whatever that might be. 44 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, I really like the fact that you're keeping 45 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: things fresh. But lindsay, let's talk about financial therapy because it, honestly, 46 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: it feels like there's a massive need for money and 47 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: for therapy to intersect. It seems like so many folks 48 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: have just a horrendous history with money that affects them, 49 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: you know, to this day. But this is still an 50 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: incredibly tiny field. What is it that caused you to 51 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: get into the space. What caused me to get into 52 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: this space was my own lived experience, which I think 53 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: happens with a lot of people who go into therapy. 54 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: So I really generally went into therapy because I have 55 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: a personal and a strong family history of mental illness, 56 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: and so I knew I wanted to do something in 57 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: this space of depression and anxiety work. And as I 58 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 1: got into that work, I got my first paycheck post 59 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: grad school, and I was making less than I was 60 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: making as a waitress, and the amount of financial shame 61 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: and guilt and embarrassment that I experienced was really really impactful. Um, 62 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: I come from financial privilege, and I graduated without student loans, 63 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: and even without student loans, it wasn't like I was 64 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: sitting on, you know, just a pile of cash, and 65 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: so when you're living paycheck to paycheck, it became really tight. 66 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: You know. I don't have to explain to you or 67 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: your listeners how hard it can be. But what I 68 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: found really interesting interesting is probably not the right right 69 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: at the time, but interesting in retrospect, was how when 70 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: I was so stressed financially, how negatively it impacted my 71 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: mental health. I have a history of depression and anxiety 72 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: that was really really well managed up until that point, 73 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: and my symptoms really came roaring back when I was 74 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,119 Speaker 1: earning so little money, and I did what I could. 75 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: I read all the personal finance books and basically they 76 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: were all telling me, you know, it's your fault. You 77 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: just got a buck up and work harder and save more. 78 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 1: And I just felt like there had to be something 79 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: more to it. This was also pre uber endoored ash days, 80 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: so I couldn't just like go out at night inside hustle, 81 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: and because my mental health wasn't great, I couldn't actually 82 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: pick up waitressing on the weekends because a part of 83 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: my symptoms of depression and anxiety was that I developed insomnia. 84 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: So when you're not sleeping, your mental health isn't great. 85 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: And then also for me, it really showed up as physically, 86 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: like when you're not sleeping, your immune system takes a 87 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: huge nose dive. Right, So it was just this spiral 88 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 1: of one thing on top of another on top of another. 89 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: And I stayed at that job for a good amount 90 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: of time. And when I negotiated a raise, as I 91 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 1: was taught to do in all those books that I read, 92 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: I was told, you know, and we we can't give 93 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: you a raise, and in fact, you should be grateful 94 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: that you have a job. And and you know, I 95 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: don't say it to be like, oh poor me. I 96 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: think this is a lived experience for many people, particularly 97 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 1: for those who go into helping or healing professions nurses, 98 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: social workers, teachers. But I realized like I couldn't stay there, 99 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 1: even though I loved the work that I was doing. 100 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: I really had to practice financial self care and mental 101 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: health care. And so when I went to find a 102 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: better paying job, and within probably a month, my symptoms 103 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: started to quiet down. I started to be able to 104 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: sleep again. The treatment that I was under before started 105 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: to work again, and it was this lightbulb moment of 106 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: as a social worker. When I was sitting across from 107 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: a client who was struggling with depression or anxiety. If 108 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: they told me they were struggling with money, my job 109 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 1: was to tell them, Hey, here's an eight hundred number 110 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: you can call and they will make sure that your 111 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 1: heat doesn't turn off. Right. I live in Michigan, so 112 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: that's kind of important this time of year, right exactly. 113 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: But they were there were short term solutions, and it 114 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: also felt like I was just telling them what to do, 115 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: whereas in other mental health care treatment you're really making 116 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: sure that they're on board and that they are part 117 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: of the process and that the things that we're going 118 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: to do are going to work for them. So it 119 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: just felt like this this missed connection, if you will, 120 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: and that I was helping people with depression and anxiety 121 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: they had money stressors. I didn't want to become a 122 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 1: financial planner. I didn't want to go in the advising room. 123 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: I wanted to stay in my lane of mental health care. 124 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: But I wanted to be more well rounded and more 125 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: balanced when helping my clients with their money. Concerns and 126 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: having my lived experience of seeing how much more beneficial 127 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 1: my own mental health care regimen was when I actually 128 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: had enough funds coming into practice self care in the 129 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: way that I needed to. So I found the Financial 130 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: Therapy Association and the and the Center for Financial Social Work, 131 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: got certificates in both of those programs, and fast forward 132 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: here here we are today, and this is what I 133 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 1: do full time practice financial therapy. I love it. And 134 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: and you you mentioned before we started that there's what 135 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: like something only like forty financial therapists maybe across the nation, 136 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: So this is not some sort of vibrant, booming industry 137 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: like you are kind of a trailblazer really in this regard. 138 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: And I'm curious a lot of difficult topics and get 139 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: broached to the traditional therapy session there there are a 140 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: lot of things to get brought up. But why is 141 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: money such a neglected topic so much of the time 142 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: in traditional therapy even though we know that money causes 143 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: and poor money usage and not having enough money causes 144 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: so many problems really, um that we face. It seems 145 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: like we you know, the more we ignore it, the 146 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: worse our collective money issues become. Yeah, it's a really 147 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: good question. I think it's a tricky question to answer 148 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: because so many of us have so little access to 149 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: financial literacy but also the holistic view of financial well being. Um, 150 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: when I was in grad school, I didn't get any 151 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: training on money, and across the nation right now, there 152 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: are only a handful of grad schools who incorporate finances 153 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: into their training for mental health care providers. So I 154 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: think there's just a huge gap in the training. I 155 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: don't know why exactly we don't address it. I it 156 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: blows my mind because, as you said, there are really 157 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: difficult things that we talk about in therapy, and to me, 158 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: every single person we sit across from, either virtually or physically, 159 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: is going to have a relationship with money. So it 160 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: just feels like a huge, huge miss. And that said, 161 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 1: I'm not all Debbie Downer. I do think a lot 162 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: of schools are making some progress and incorporating financial wellness, 163 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: financial literacy training, and financial psychology into their programs. And 164 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: my hope is that, you know, in another few years, 165 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: I will no longer be just on the on the 166 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: front end of things. I hope that there will be 167 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: more colleagues around that I can refer to you know it, 168 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: there's a huge need for people to have this type 169 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: of care. Sure. Yeah, So, I mean you're talking about 170 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: your training. Let's talk about what exactly you do as 171 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: a financial therapist. Are you looking at budgets and spreadsheets? 172 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: You know, like, are you talking about retirement account contribution 173 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: limits or are you mostly you know, sticking to the 174 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: thoughts and the feeling side of things as you're you're 175 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: talking with your clients. Yeah, I'm mostly hang out in 176 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 1: the thoughts and feeling space. But in order to get 177 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: certified in financial therapy and financial social work, we did 178 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 1: have to do some of the basic building blocks of 179 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: financial education. UM, And what I usually think about is 180 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: if it kind of stays in the realm of education 181 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: versus advising, I'm comfy being there, But the second we 182 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: get into which is better this or that, that's really 183 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: outside my realm. I'm obviously never touching anything with m 184 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: stock advising, investment advice. I really stay in the place 185 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 1: of what's getting in the way of doing the things 186 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: that you want to do. What are some things that 187 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: we collectively can work together towards moving the needle towards 188 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: the things that matter to you. And I'm also really 189 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: comfortable saying, hey, that's that's outside of my scope. That's 190 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 1: definitely a CFP, or hit up your works hr rap 191 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 1: and see if somebody else can talk to you. They're 192 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: about different retirement elections. So I'm also pretty comfortable in 193 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: my wheelhouse and referring when things are outside of my wheelhouse. Gotcha, Yeah, 194 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: And so um, when you're kind of starting out with 195 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: a new client. My guess is a lot of issues 196 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: that people have today with money in adulthood stem from 197 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:28,959 Speaker 1: things that happen in childhood. I don't know, I mean 198 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: looking at my own career trajectory. So you talked about 199 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: your lived experience and how it kind of pushed you 200 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: in this direction. My lived experience of my parents not 201 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: handling money terribly well pushed me in a direction at 202 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: a really impressionable age. And look what I do now 203 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 1: for a living. So I don't know, how often are 204 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: you going back to kind of things that happened in 205 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: childhood to really kind of decipher how that's impacting what's 206 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: happening today. Such a good question, and I'm always going 207 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 1: back to childhood. We know that you both have kids, 208 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: so you know when your kiddos are young, their little 209 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: brains are sponges and they are soaking up everything around them, 210 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: And we were little at one point too, And what 211 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: research shows us is that by the time we're about 212 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: seven or eight years old, we more or less have 213 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: decided what we think about money. And so when you 214 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: go back to what was going on in those early 215 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 1: end elementary years or those early childhood years, it makes 216 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: perfect sense why so many of us, when we hit 217 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: eight or whatever our version of becoming financial adults is 218 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: why we make so many choices that might not make 219 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: perfect sense, Because if you think about your inner seven 220 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: or eight year old self driving those financial decisions, it 221 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: helps to provide some context and some meaning to why 222 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: we do what we do. And for those listening who 223 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 1: are like, well, my parents or caregivers never talked about money, 224 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: that is just as impactful as having grown up in 225 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 1: a household where you heard your parents or caregivers arguing 226 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 1: about money all the time. Right, we soak things up, 227 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,839 Speaker 1: even if they aren't explicitly said. We soaked things up 228 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: by the way that things feel when we're in the 229 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: checkoutline at a grocery store or when holiday cards arrive 230 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: in the mail, Right, we soak up the emotion in 231 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: the room, and so when I'm working with my clients, 232 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 1: we often go back to that. And then we're also 233 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: thinking about the first meaning the first time you got 234 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: a paycheck, the first time you got a job, the 235 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: first time you got a credit card, because those first 236 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,319 Speaker 1: also tend to leave a little bit of a bigger, 237 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: stickier impression, and so we also want to think through 238 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: what did it feel like the first time you gotta 239 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 1: paycheck and when you saw how much went up for taxes, 240 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: when you saw how much went to Social Security, and 241 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: then when you went to, you know, go pay your 242 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: first cell phone bill. Right, all of those different things 243 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: impact why we do what we do now. It makes 244 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: a ton of sense. And Lindsay I mentioned the book 245 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 1: that you wrote on financial anxiety. How can someone know 246 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 1: if they are experiencing financial anxiety? Because we all deal 247 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: with sort of like the day to day stresses of 248 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: oh I wish I had some more money to do 249 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 1: the things I want to do. But how does someone 250 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: know if they're dealing with actual financial stress as opposed 251 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,959 Speaker 1: to you know, maybe just a small lesson for them 252 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: to learn that, oh, maybe they need to go in 253 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: a different direction with a career. Oh maybe I need 254 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: to cut back a little bit on my expenses. I 255 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: feel like there's a it's kind of a fine line 256 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: between the two. Yeah, you're exactly right, and that we 257 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: all experience anxiety, and we all experience financial anxiety. It's 258 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: a it's a healthy response to any sort of stressor. 259 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,439 Speaker 1: And so when I'm talking about financial anxiety, I'm talking 260 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: about literally the physical sensations that mimic what traditional anxiety 261 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: feels like, because it's going to feel the exact same 262 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: in your body, so sweaty palms, tight throat, racing heart, 263 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: knots in your stomach, all of those things that can 264 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: kind of come along with anxiety. And then we when 265 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: we think about the thoughts that come up with financial anxiety, 266 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: it's being worried, nervous, or on edge, often ruminating on 267 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: thoughts for longer than the amount of time that the 268 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 1: stressor exists, or kind of questioning yourself or having money 269 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: on your mind all the time, and then those behaviors 270 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: sometimes being the impulsive like I just I'm gonna pay 271 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: all my bills right now without sitting down and looking 272 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: through everything, and then realizing that you've frontloaded and paid 273 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: a bunch of bills, but you didn't consider that your 274 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: rent was due, and now you're short on your rent. 275 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: So to back up, financial anxiety is a normal, short 276 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: term response to a financial stressor where it becomes problematic 277 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: is if that financial anxiety is impacting your ability to 278 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: manage your money or engage with others around finances. So, 279 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: for example, if I wanted to make sure that my 280 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: paycheck actually went through, I might refresh my banking app 281 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: on the day that I'm supposed to get that paycheck, 282 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: and I might be a little bit anxious while it's refreshing, 283 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: and then when I see that that money hit my 284 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: account and I go, oh, okay, cool, my boss paid, 285 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: my bills are paid, my paycheck, We're all set. But 286 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: if throughout the day, I'm continually checking in on that 287 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: bank account just to make sure that what I saw 288 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: was really there, then that might be a queue that 289 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: we're tipping into more financial anxiety territory. That could you 290 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: a little bit of help. Yeah, and you've identified a 291 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: number of like false or temporary solutions that we often 292 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: turn to when we're dealing with financial anxiety. Can you 293 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: walk through some of those and maybe explain how they 294 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: can be like short term fixes really and they're not 295 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: actually tackling the root of the problem. Yeah, So a 296 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: lot of us tend to fall into one of two 297 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: things when we're dealing with chronic financial anxiety. We either 298 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: tend towards perfectionism, and the way that that looks in 299 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: the financial space is consuming a lot of content, or 300 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: we tend towards procrastination, which we're all familiar with, which 301 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: is just putting off dealing with our money stuff. And 302 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: so when we think about perfectionism, you might go, oh, 303 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: I'd actually choose that one when it comes to money, 304 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: But I often see perfectionism and procrastination being tied together, 305 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: where people are scared to start something until they know 306 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: how to do it exactly right. So right, right, So 307 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: we all know those people who are it just sounds 308 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: better when you call it perfectionism. It's doing the thing 309 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: still procrastinating as you are perfecting your plans. We might 310 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: have the set of a session. Yeah, it's it's really 311 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: interesting because of the two. Your bowlth spot on that 312 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: we tend to reward perfectionism a lot more than we 313 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: reward procrastination. So for somebody who's like, I'm really excited 314 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: to start investing this year, but what they end up 315 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: doing is checking out books and listening to podcasts and 316 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: maybe hiring financial advisors, but not actually following through because 317 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: they want to do it just right. We know the 318 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: long term negative consequences of being out of the market 319 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: for an additional year, right, So the short term is 320 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: I'm going to learn everything, so I do this right, 321 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: which sounds like okayish, but the long term isn't that great. Um, 322 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: And then with the procrastination, none of us really like 323 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: feeling uncomfortable, So it's a great way to put off 324 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: feeling uncomfortable if dealing with money makes you feel awkward 325 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: or uncomfortable. So just going I'm not going to do it, 326 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: not a big deal. But then over time it can 327 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 1: become a bit problematic. You're just yeah, you're saying not 328 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: today and maybe never actually happening. Well, I mean, one 329 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: of the other things, I think a lot of folks 330 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: think that just by making more money, right, like having 331 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: more cash in hand, that a lot of times that 332 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: that can that might be able to solve their problems. 333 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: But I just got that inheritance financial anxiety. But that's 334 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: not the case, right, it's not the case. It is true. 335 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: I think we're all in agreement that having more money 336 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: generally does help to provide that additional sense of security, 337 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: and if we don't know how to manage it in 338 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: a way that feels good for us and is actually sustainable. 339 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 1: We we've all heard those horror stories of somebody who 340 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 1: gets an inheritance or wins the lotto or gets a 341 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: huge settlement who goes through it in a year. And 342 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: it's oftentimes not that they're like, yes, I want to 343 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 1: spend all this money and have nothing left to show 344 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: for it. But it can sometimes be the self sabotage 345 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: behavior of money makes me anxious, and so a great 346 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: thing to do is just to not have it. And 347 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: it's never that cut and dry. I have this money, 348 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: money makes me uncomfortable, so I'm going to spend it all. 349 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 1: It's much more subtle over time that can be really 350 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: harmful when we're dealing with if I have more money, 351 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: everything will be better, m alright, So, well, how can 352 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: we dial down money anxiety when it surfaces? Then? Maybe 353 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 1: for for someone who is consistently dealing with it, like 354 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: some people might need to see a professional that would 355 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: be helpful, But what are some skills that maybe we 356 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 1: can develop on our own two that can help us 357 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 1: handle anxiety a little bit differently and and just kind 358 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: of cope better as individuals. Yeah, for the perfectionist, I 359 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: often like to think about what is your good enough 360 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 1: in order for you to take action? So going back 361 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: to this example of investing for a retirement, how much 362 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: is good enough for you to know to start investing 363 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: sooner than later? And maybe you're like, I need to 364 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 1: feel like seventy percent good with the information that I 365 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 1: have in order to start investing. But if you wait 366 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: until you get to that hundred percent, it's going to 367 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 1: be really really challenging. Same thing if you're working towards 368 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 1: beefing up an emergency fund. Instead of saying, if you're 369 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: a perfectionist, okay, I know I need six to nine months. 370 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: Maybe you start with that four hundred and one dollars, right, 371 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: and then you're a dollar more than most Americans have saved. 372 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: And what we are doing there is we're breaking down 373 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: these goals into smaller, more tangible steps, and we know 374 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: that that helps with this positive feedback loop. If I 375 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: can say four hundred and one dollars, I can probably 376 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 1: save another four hundred and one dollars or I have 377 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: the capacity to save more money, and we can start 378 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: to kind of build on that. And then what that 379 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: also does is it tells that financial anxiety that kicks 380 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: up and says, hey, you don't know what what you're 381 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 1: doing with money, you better just quit. Actually I have 382 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:49,239 Speaker 1: an idea of what I'm doing with money, and I 383 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: know how to follow through on it. So it helps 384 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: to kind of build that muscle, if you will, of 385 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 1: financial self esteem. And then, on the other hand, with procrastination, oftentimes, 386 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: I'm a you huge fan of adding in deadlines to 387 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 1: help with procrastination. So a great example of this is, 388 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 1: you know, if you're going to just sit down and 389 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 1: watch one Netflix show and then you know, instead of 390 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: twenty minutes going by, all of a sudden, two and 391 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 1: a half hours have gone by. We want to give 392 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: ourselves a little timer, So actually setting that timer for 393 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: twenty minutes. So if you're super stressed looking at you, 394 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: we're recording this around tax season, if you're super stressed 395 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: gathering all your documents and uploading them for your accountant, 396 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 1: maybe you can say, I'm going to watch a show, 397 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: set a timer for twenty minutes, and then after that 398 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: twenty minutes, I'm going to organize my paperwork for forty 399 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: five minutes, and again set a timer. And there's something 400 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: about that time limited element, and we can dial that 401 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: amount of time down too. But just saying I'm just 402 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: going to work on this for twenty minutes, I'm just 403 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: going to work on this for forty minutes. It seems 404 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: so much more doable than I'm going to get everything 405 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: together that I need in order to do this task. 406 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,239 Speaker 1: So having some outside para letters or as we call 407 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: in the therapy where some scaffolding can be really helpful 408 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: helpful UM. And I'm also a huge fan of body 409 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 1: doubling bull for perfectionism and for procrastination, So that means 410 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 1: literally doing one of these tasks with a friend with 411 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: your partner. I'm a huge fan of Focus Mate that 412 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: pairs you with somebody else and you can work on 413 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: different tasks for fifty or seventy five minutes. And no 414 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: I'm not sponsored by them, um, but it partners you 415 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: up with them in the zoom room and you basically 416 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: say hey, for the next fifty minutes, I'm going to 417 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 1: work on organizing my tax paperwork, and the person on 418 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: the other side says, cool, I'm working on an outline 419 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: for my book, and you put your heads down and 420 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 1: get to work. So those are some tips. What was 421 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: the name of that side again, it's called focus mate, 422 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: m A focus mate. I love it. Body doubling, not 423 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: what it sounds like on the surface. I know, I know, 424 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: I know. Stunt doubling. Right, I'm quite as exciting. No 425 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 1: top gun action. Now, this is so good. Yeah. And 426 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 1: whether it's breaking these things into smaller steps or like 427 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier, it's sometimes we think that 428 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: making more money, that that's the solution. But we're gonna 429 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: talk with you some more, and we're gonna specifically talk 430 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: about just ways to improve our overall our general financial wellness. 431 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: But oftentimes it's not done in the way that you 432 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 1: might think. We will get to all of that right 433 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: after this. Alright, we're back. We're still talking about solutions 434 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 1: for money anxiety with experts and financial therapist Lindsay Brian 435 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: Potvin and and Lindsay Matt and I. We talked a 436 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: lot about the lack of financial knowledge that Americans have. 437 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: You know, you talked about that a little bit. Most 438 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: of us didn't learn much from our parents, or we 439 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: learned bad habits when it comes to how we handle 440 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,719 Speaker 1: money from our parents. We didn't learn anything in high school. 441 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: Uh that you know that's becoming sorry, to become more 442 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: of a thing. Fortunately is financial literary class. Literacy classes 443 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: in high school. But uh, and I agree with you, 444 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 1: But you say that financial literacy isn't enough and that 445 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: knowledge doesn't equal transformation. What do you mean by that? 446 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: And what else is necessary? We all know to talk 447 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: about something not money related, what we should be doing 448 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,479 Speaker 1: to get quote unquote good sleep right. Most of us 449 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: know we shouldn't be watching TV right before bed. We 450 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: shouldn't be drinking a bunch of coffee. We should put 451 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,959 Speaker 1: on some pgs and not be scrolling on our phones 452 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: and getting all activated. But the reality is most of 453 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: us still hop into our beds with our phone in 454 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 1: our hands and scroll away until our eyelids get heavy 455 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: and we fall asleep. We know that that's not great 456 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 1: for us. So having somebody else say, hey, don't forget, 457 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: you're not supposed to have blue light exposure, You're not 458 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 1: supposed to have coffee before bed, isn't going to make 459 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: a big difference because that's knowledge. So when we're talking 460 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: about something like sleep hygiene, like going to bed and 461 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: getting good, regular quality sleep, having more information doesn't necessarily 462 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: lead to transformation. Similarly, financial literacy is great, we do 463 00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 1: need that information, and information alone is not enough to 464 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: incite behavior change. Right, So plenty of people know, oh, 465 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: I should be spending less money than I earn every month, 466 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 1: I should be um starting a retirement fund, I should 467 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: potentially open up a five nine for my kiddo. A 468 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: lot of people are really good at regurgitating the things 469 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: that they think they're supposed to be doing, but not 470 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: a lot of us are very good at actually following through. 471 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 1: And so when we take that next step from information 472 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: into transformation, in my mind, this is where we get 473 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: into the world of financial wellness, which is the ability 474 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: to not just understand the financial concepts, financial knowledge, financial literacy, 475 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,479 Speaker 1: but to actually learn how to make them mean something 476 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: to you so that you can sustain them for the 477 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:48,360 Speaker 1: long term. So to me, financial wellness is understanding what's 478 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 1: going on financially, but also creating a financial plan that 479 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: is sustainable for you, aligned with your values, and making 480 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 1: sure that it's not spiking your anxiety through the roof 481 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: when you're engaging with your money. Okay, then let's talk 482 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: about practical things that we should do. What stuff should 483 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: we take if we're looking to improve our overall financial wellness. Yeah, 484 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 1: this is this is where it's going to be a 485 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: little tricky because I know, let me just preface that 486 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: most of us know like the handful of things we 487 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: should be doing with our money in terms of having 488 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: an emergency fund, paying down high interest debt, making sure 489 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: that we have a spending plan that works for us, 490 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: and thinking forward to some of those big picture goals, 491 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: be it buying a new car or saving for retirement. However, 492 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: what we know is that do this, then this, then 493 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 1: this does not actually work for all of us. So 494 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: even though let's take the debt snowball versus the debt avalanche, 495 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: even though we know the debt avalanche works better from 496 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: a financial perspective, we know that the debt snowball tends 497 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 1: to work better from a psychological perspective because it tends 498 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: to build momentum. So I like to keep that in 499 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 1: mind when I'm working with my clients. If they have 500 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: a ton of credit card debt and all so don't 501 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 1: have an emergency fund. A lot of us would be like, oh, 502 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 1: you need an emergency fund. But if my client is saying, 503 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: when I fall asleep thinking about that high credit card debt, 504 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: it stresses me out, I get poor sleep, I'm worried 505 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 1: about it all day, then we may focus on the 506 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: credit card debt first. So for me, this is about 507 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: tailoring things to work for the person rather than tailoring 508 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: things to work for the what's right on paper financially, 509 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,439 Speaker 1: And this can be really hard right to go, Oh, well, 510 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 1: everybody in the personal finance space says that this is 511 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: step one, but I really am just struggling with step 512 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: five here. I need to put my my energy towards 513 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: step five. Then me, as a financial therapist, I'm going 514 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: to say, I'd rather have you do step five than 515 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: no steps at all. Um. So that's kind of the 516 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: way that I look at it. So financial wellness gets 517 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: to be defined differently in terms of what people need 518 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: to do. Usually, I'm trying to figure out what their 519 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 1: emotional relationship with money is in case that's getting in 520 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: a way. So, for example, if financial anxiety is getting 521 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: in the way of them looking at money, or if 522 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: they have financial trauma. Do we have to process that 523 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: before they can engage with their money. And usually what 524 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,959 Speaker 1: I'm doing is literally asking them how different financial interactions 525 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 1: make them feel. So it could be how does it 526 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: feel when you log into your credit card account and 527 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 1: go to pay down a lot of debt versus? How 528 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: does it feel to send in your taxes versus? What 529 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,719 Speaker 1: does it feel like to make a student loan payment? 530 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: And what we're starting to do is figure out what 531 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 1: are the patterns related to each of these things, and 532 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: how are they helpful or harmful? And what can we 533 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 1: do if they are harmful to dial them down enough 534 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: so we can take meaningful action towards change. So the 535 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: way you're talking about that, it kind of makes me 536 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: think of personality types because maybe maybe like an engineer 537 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: really important, Yeah, the debt avalanche, You know, they might 538 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: be thinking so analytically that that's the best way for 539 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: them to go about tackling their debt. But for someone 540 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: who's a little more of a free spirit, they might 541 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: need that psychological boost right that the snowball method provides. So, 542 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: so do you think that like knowing your personality type 543 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,120 Speaker 1: is like a part of kind of figuring out your 544 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: money story and then a part of attacking and getting 545 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: better with personal finances, like you have like a financial 546 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,120 Speaker 1: archetype quiz on your site, which I thought was really interesting, 547 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: and so, yeah, talk to us about the importance of 548 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: knowing your money personality. Yeah, the your financial archetype definitely 549 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: helps to provide some insight as to why we do 550 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: what we do. And the financial archetype is a modification 551 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: of the money scripts that was developed by a group 552 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: of financial therapy researchers. Um but coming. I spent four 553 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: and a half years in psychiatric research, so I always 554 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: keep my eyes and my ears open when I find 555 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: data like this. And it's not that there's anything inherently 556 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: wrong with that particular data set. It's just that that 557 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: data set wasn't particularly diverse or representative of the US population. 558 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: So for me, I kind of took it with a 559 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: grain of salt. And as a social worker, we are 560 00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:00,239 Speaker 1: trained to see people from their strengths first rather than 561 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: to say what's wrong with this person? So I took 562 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: some of that information, plus the information that I was 563 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: seeing in my clients, to go, what are some of 564 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: the strengths that each of these people brings into their 565 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: relationship with money. And so for some people who maybe 566 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: more of your blissfully ignorant type, they don't want to 567 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: look at money, they don't want to think about money. 568 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: A lot of us would be like, oh, that's bad, 569 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: you have to look at your money, you have to 570 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: think about money. But what we often find is that 571 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: those are the people who tend to be more likely 572 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: to go into helping and healing fields. So we don't 573 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: necessarily want to diminish that part of why they do 574 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: what they do, but instead we want to think about 575 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: how can we potentially dial down the need to give 576 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: so much of their time and their energy without compensation. 577 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,239 Speaker 1: For example, teachers tend to be the ones who are 578 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: like also volunteering for PTA meetings and also setting up 579 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: the school dances. So maybe thinking you know what you're 580 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: you're compensated in the way that you are, and maybe 581 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: that's enough and you can say no or you can 582 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 1: give back in a different way. So just thinking a 583 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: little bit more holistically a about the whole person when 584 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: we're we're thinking about our relationship with money. That makes sense. Yeah, 585 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: your personality is incredibly important. Your emotions are also really 586 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: important because on one hand, I feel like they can. 587 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: They can lead us to unhealthy behaviors, right, like if 588 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: like erratic spending for instance, Like that's the negative side 589 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: of things. But you also talk about how like you 590 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: do not want us to take emotions completely out of 591 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: the equation. Going back to that personality archetype. I fill 592 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: that out and I am the money admirer, which I 593 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: got doom take prepper myself, so we're on that side 594 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: of the spectrum. But one of the strengths that was 595 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: listed out there was just the ability to be objective 596 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: and it comes to some of your money decisions. So yeah, 597 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: I guess how do you find that balance between being 598 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: objective and not letting your emotions run the show, but 599 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: at the same time you know them, you want to 600 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: attend to your emotions a little bit, and there there 601 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: are certain strengths and certain abilities that you can sort 602 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: of glean and harvest from your emotions as well. I'd 603 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: love to hear you talk about that, absolutely so, because 604 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: I specialized in anxiety, going to use that as an 605 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: example quite a bit. But when somebody saying, like, oh 606 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: my gosh, I'm just so anxious that I'll never be 607 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: able to retire, I often ask them, well, what is 608 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: it that's underneath that anxiety? What is that anxiety trying 609 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: to tell you? Because oftentimes that emotion is trying to 610 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: signal up to us that something's worth looking at. And 611 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: with that client, let's say they're so worried about retirement. 612 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: Once we dig under that, they might say, you know, 613 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: my my parent worked their entire life. They never took 614 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: a sick day. They kept saying like, oh, that's for 615 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 1: me in retirement, and once they retired, we hear these stories. 616 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: Sadly all the time, they became very ill and weren't 617 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: able to do the things that they wanted to do. 618 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: So then we go, okay, so some of this anxiety 619 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: about retiring is potentially related to this, this fact that 620 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 1: you had a parent who was not well enough to 621 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: really enjoy their retirement. So maybe then we go, okay, 622 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: how can we make sure that you're enjoying your life 623 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: now and saving up for your future so you don't 624 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: feel like you're in that anxious spiral. So usually, if 625 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: somebody's experiencing something, oh, I feel so guilty about the 626 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: shopping spree that I went on. Okay, well, what's that guilt? 627 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: Trying to tell you and what are some of the 628 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: things that you were purchasing and what was going on 629 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: in the moment you went on that shopping spreed that 630 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: you were potentially trying to soothe with shopping. So we 631 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: can use those emotions has little clues about why we 632 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: do what we do, and so when it comes to 633 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: taking action in alignment with emotions that are neutral or positive, 634 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: we also want to bring those into the fold. So 635 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: if you're working on paying down credit card debt, instead 636 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: of just telling yourself like, I'm so stupid for getting 637 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: into credit card debt in the first place, maybe we say, 638 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: you know what, I put an extra hundred dollars towards 639 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: that credit card payment. That feels really good and I'm 640 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,479 Speaker 1: really proud of that that movement. Um So, so just 641 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: some of those kind of loving reframes towards ourselves can 642 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 1: also be helpful. Okay, loving reframes is that how we 643 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: get rid of shame? Because I love Matt and I 644 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: feel the same way. We want to take shame out 645 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: of personal finance. There's a lot of everybody's made mistakes 646 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: in the past, and you're right there, there are a 647 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: lot of people in the personal finance space who their 648 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: initial go to if if you tell them about the 649 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: mistakes you've made, is to be like, yeah, you're an idiot, 650 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: how could you do that? And we we we all 651 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: know people like that who instead of empowering and helping 652 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: and pushing people in the right direction, they're just um, 653 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 1: you know, really kind of making them feel worse about 654 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: the decision or the mistake they made. So how can 655 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: we as individuals kind of tamped down the shame we 656 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: feel so that we can make more progress because often 657 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: that shame is kind of like hovering over us and 658 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: it it actually prevents us from making the progress we 659 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: want to make. Yeah, Juel, I appreciate you bringing this 660 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: piece up. So first I just want to do a 661 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: quick differentiation between guilt and shame because oftentimes we use 662 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: those words interchangeably, but they're they're different. And then when 663 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: it comes to money shame you'll see why it's important. 664 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 1: So guilt is an external link I did something bad, 665 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: I made a mistake, where a shame is where we 666 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 1: internalize that guilt. I am bad, I am the mistake. 667 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: And so when it comes to money, we hear that 668 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: financial shame show up as I'm bad with money, or 669 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: I'll just never get it, or money isn't for people 670 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: like me, and those types of statements start to then 671 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 1: make it seem like it's about a personal character flaw 672 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,720 Speaker 1: versus if we do guilt and we kind of push 673 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: it out away from us and we say, hey, I 674 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: never had the opportunity to learn about money. That's something 675 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: I have the capacity to do. What are the things 676 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: that I can do to start taking ownership of it 677 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,760 Speaker 1: that really can be super helpful in making that difference. 678 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: So when it comes to money shame, we know that 679 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: shame isn't a great motivator for change. Telling somebody either 680 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: bad or wrong or dumb isn't a great way to 681 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: help people change. But we know that having a few 682 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: things can help. So I'll lean on Prene Brown, who's 683 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:00,879 Speaker 1: a social work research sure that a lot of us 684 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: know out of Texas, and she has um kind of 685 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: these four things that she says help with shame. And 686 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: I think that we can take these things and apply 687 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 1: them to our finances. So one is just literally saying 688 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: out loud what it is, what's going on and what 689 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: you're feeling, so naming that sensation. I'm embarrassed that I 690 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: didn't pay my rent on time, or I'm frustrated that 691 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: the negotiation for my raised and go over well, so 692 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: naming it. The other thing that's super helpful in dialing 693 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: down shame is external social support or validation. So that's 694 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 1: where online communities can be really helpful. Support groups can 695 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: be helpful. Talking to friends, talking to family, and just 696 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: having somebody say yeah, I've been there are oh that 697 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 1: must be really hard can help dial down shame. Education 698 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,800 Speaker 1: is the other thing that can help dial down shame, 699 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,479 Speaker 1: which is super interesting when it comes to financial stuff 700 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: because as I mentioned earlier, we don't want to get 701 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: to that spiral where all we're doing is learning without 702 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,319 Speaker 1: imple menting, So I would add on an asterisk of 703 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 1: like education to the point of good enough. And then 704 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: the last thing that can help with shame is making 705 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 1: meaning of the mistake. And again we want to use 706 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: the word mistake instead of I am bad with money. 707 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: You want to say, oh, I made a mistake with money, 708 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: and making meaning of that mistake. You know what, I 709 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:23,280 Speaker 1: didn't pay my rent on time because groceries are bananas 710 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: expensive right now or eggs expensive right now exactly, and 711 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: you know it's a bummer, But things just happened too much. 712 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: And what did I learn? I learned that potentially I 713 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: need to check in on the foods I'm actually eating 714 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: and not over shop and contribute to food waste in 715 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,280 Speaker 1: my household, and that may help me move the needles 716 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 1: so that I can pay rent on time next time. 717 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 1: So those are the four things that can help with shame. Yeah, 718 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 1: it's not who you are, but it is about what 719 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: you did, whether whether it's something you did once or 720 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: whether this is a habit that you maybe keep going 721 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,120 Speaker 1: back to. And one of the things you mentioned, I 722 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: guess the second one you mentioned there those forms of 723 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: external support essentially as community, right, Like this is about 724 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,319 Speaker 1: finding your people, and you talk about this when it 725 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,839 Speaker 1: comes to just general overall financial wellness. How do money 726 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 1: Facebook group? That's a place that we're really fond of. 727 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: But why is a community of like minded folks so 728 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: helpful for individuals? And you know, how do you suggest 729 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: for folks to find their own tribe if they're not, 730 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 1: if they're looking for maybe something beyond an online group, 731 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 1: how would you recommend for folks to go about that? So, 732 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 1: to answer your first question, community is important because humans 733 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: are social beings. Even for the introvernce amongst us, we 734 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: know that having community support matters. One of the things 735 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: that we know as humans we need for survival is 736 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: to feel like we belong. So having community of people 737 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: who share either similar demographics or psycho graphics or goals 738 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 1: with us can help support us as we navigate through 739 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: the inevitable mistakes that we will make in relationship to 740 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: our money. And in terms of finding communities, I I 741 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: do love online communities, but I so agree that it 742 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 1: is helpful to take things off of the Internet. And 743 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: I've had a front row seat too to see a 744 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,839 Speaker 1: lot of different ways that people can do that given 745 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: my line of work. So some ways that some of 746 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,919 Speaker 1: my folks have taken the community thing and really put 747 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,240 Speaker 1: it into real life is a money book club. So 748 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 1: in my community, there's a local money book club meet 749 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,439 Speaker 1: up where each month they read a different money book 750 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: and they chat about it and they talk about what 751 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: they liked, what they didn't UM. I've had other folks 752 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 1: who have an investing club, and this is not over 753 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: going in and buying crypto and training crypto. They more 754 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 1: or less like kind of play with UM investing, so 755 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 1: they're invested in like your your standard no load index funds. 756 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 1: But what they'll do is kind of follow a stock 757 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: for a month and see what happens, just to kind 758 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: of scratch that curiosity and be a bit more engaged 759 00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 1: in the market. Um, and then other kind of money. 760 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: The adjacent ones to take offline are all of your 761 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 1: you know, no buy Facebook groups if you can take 762 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 1: them on the offline, take on swap meats offline. A 763 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 1: lot of my friends have kiddos, and as you guys know, 764 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: with kiddos, they tend to grow like crazy. So I've 765 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 1: seen friends of mine who will be like, Okay, I've 766 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 1: got a bunch of one year old clothes. Um, let's 767 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,320 Speaker 1: all go over to our friend who just had a newborn, 768 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 1: bring them those clothes over there, and kind of just 769 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: provide some space for that new family while talking about yes, clothes, 770 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 1: but also kind of providing some financial minded support in 771 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 1: that way. Yeah, that's great. I love it, and I 772 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: do think that the way that we can find community 773 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,919 Speaker 1: online is really incredible. And for for someone who wants 774 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,240 Speaker 1: to find their tribe to help them with money questions 775 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: they have or with encouragement, finding people online is one 776 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 1: part of the puzzle, but it can't be the whole thing, 777 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 1: and I think you have to find people locally where 778 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: you are who share some of those similar goals and 779 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: desires as well. But so we've got a few more 780 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: questions we want to get to with you. We want 781 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 1: to talk about self care, and we want to talk 782 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 1: about relationships like relationship dynamics and money and how we 783 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: can make those better. We'll get to those questions right 784 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: after this. All right, we are back from the break 785 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,800 Speaker 1: and again we're talking with financial therapist Lindsay Brian Podvin 786 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: talking about financial wellness. We're talking about money anxiety and Lindsay, 787 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,800 Speaker 1: let's talk about self care for a second here, because 788 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,799 Speaker 1: you know, we we think that self care it's important, right, 789 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,399 Speaker 1: but it's also gone off the rails a little bit. 790 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: You recently made a video about financial self care and 791 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 1: how it is that someone can go about doing some 792 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 1: of that on the cheap. Can you can you share 793 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,279 Speaker 1: a few of your favorites. Oh yeah, I again, I 794 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: get this front row seat to see different ways people 795 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,279 Speaker 1: practice financial self care. So for me, I really think 796 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: about financial self care is the ways that you can 797 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: take care of yourself physically till the emotionally and spiritually 798 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,640 Speaker 1: that may intersect with your finances, right, and we know 799 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,880 Speaker 1: that oftentimes to practice financial self care it might cost 800 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: a little bit of money or a little bit of time, 801 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,360 Speaker 1: so we want to make sure we carve out that time. 802 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,799 Speaker 1: So the video you're referring to, I did thirty seven 803 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 1: different ways that you can practice financial self care. And 804 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 1: the reason that I shared that was that it's not 805 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 1: always you know, journaling under the moon with candlelight all 806 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 1: of your money manifestations, though it can be, but it 807 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,799 Speaker 1: can also be. I automated a savings account goal to 808 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:35,840 Speaker 1: have a little bit of money moved from my checking 809 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,360 Speaker 1: into a high old savings account every single month, so 810 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,239 Speaker 1: when the holidays roll around, I have money available, and 811 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 1: that's practicing financial self care for me because I love 812 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,320 Speaker 1: gift giving and I also don't like to be stressed 813 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,359 Speaker 1: around to the holidays, right, So that could be an 814 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,520 Speaker 1: example of financial self care. So there are a bunch 815 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:53,479 Speaker 1: of different ways that you can practice that I shared 816 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,360 Speaker 1: at the top of this episode that for me, practicing 817 00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,719 Speaker 1: literal self care is a part of my financial self care. 818 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 1: So if I go get a massage or a facial 819 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,839 Speaker 1: or buy new jewelry as long as it's a part 820 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,359 Speaker 1: of that little fun money bucket. I feel like that 821 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,360 Speaker 1: helps me to kind of check that box off. And recently, 822 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:12,720 Speaker 1: you know, now that I'm in my mid to late thirties, 823 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 1: how old? How old am I? What is time after 824 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,960 Speaker 1: the pandemic? Like I don't know. Um, my partner and I, 825 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,759 Speaker 1: even though we're super comfy with our money, we have 826 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: instituted meeting with a financial planner once a year just 827 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 1: to kind of double check our our teas are crossed 828 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: and our eyes are dotted and we're on the right 829 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,880 Speaker 1: tracks of Sometimes having that little external eyes on advice 830 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 1: can be helpful, very cool. Yeah, I think it's important 831 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 1: to reframe it in that way, right, Like these are 832 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 1: just oftentimes you hear self care and you think of splurging, 833 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 1: and you think of the wasting money. Yeah, but but 834 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,359 Speaker 1: what we're talking about here our habits, and you talked 835 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 1: about this too, just how these are things that are repeatable, 836 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,799 Speaker 1: These are healthy behaviors that will ultimately lead to in 837 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,200 Speaker 1: this case, financial success. Yes, well, let's talk about relationships too, 838 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,399 Speaker 1: because I'm sure as a financial therapist you never get 839 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: people coming in and talking about how they aren't able 840 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,760 Speaker 1: to communicate with their partner about money. Right, that's nobody's 841 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: ever sent that to you. Right, I don't know what 842 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,040 Speaker 1: you're talking about exactly exactly, but of course we know 843 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,279 Speaker 1: from the stats that fighting about money is one of 844 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,200 Speaker 1: the leading causes of separation of the force of issues 845 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,920 Speaker 1: in a relationship. So yeah, what what are you telling people? 846 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,439 Speaker 1: What tips do you have for how couples can talk 847 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:26,320 Speaker 1: about money more effectively. So the flip side of couples 848 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,319 Speaker 1: who argue about money separate, which is true, is that 849 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:33,279 Speaker 1: couples who talk about money regularly report being happier than 850 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,920 Speaker 1: those that don't. So I usually invite my clients into 851 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,600 Speaker 1: that frame of reference because if they have associated talking 852 00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 1: about money with fighting about money, of course it's going 853 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,480 Speaker 1: to be difficult. So I have a few guidelines that 854 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:52,080 Speaker 1: I like to share with couples who are trying to 855 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 1: be more effective in communicating about money and aligning their 856 00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,359 Speaker 1: financial goals with one another. So one is making sure 857 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,160 Speaker 1: you have carved out time to have your money date, 858 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 1: which means no drive buys and what I mean drive by, 859 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,840 Speaker 1: I mean no walking out the door and being like, hey, honey, 860 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:08,440 Speaker 1: by the way, I maxed out the credit card talk 861 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 1: to you tonight like that is not a good way 862 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 1: to effectively communicate with your partner that you want to 863 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,399 Speaker 1: talk about the credit card. Instead, it would be like 864 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,960 Speaker 1: when you're sitting down to dinner saying, Hey, this Sunday, 865 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 1: after we go for our hike, I want to sit 866 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,840 Speaker 1: down and look at our finances. Specifically, I'm really curious 867 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,759 Speaker 1: with how high our credit card bill has gotten. So 868 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,799 Speaker 1: giving them it heads up to understand what you want 869 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,600 Speaker 1: to talk about, making it neutral. Instead of saying you 870 00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:36,399 Speaker 1: wracked up the credit card, I want to talk about 871 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,920 Speaker 1: what you did to overspend. You're saying, what can we do? 872 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,760 Speaker 1: I want us to look at this together. You're giving 873 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,960 Speaker 1: them some time to emotionally and mentally prepare for it. 874 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,280 Speaker 1: You're carving out that time in space, and then during 875 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,880 Speaker 1: that time where you're talking about that specific thing, acknowledge 876 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,399 Speaker 1: your part Hey, you know, I realized recently I've been 877 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 1: grabbing for the credit card more frequently than the debit 878 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 1: card to I own my stuff. But also being cognizant 879 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,720 Speaker 1: of when is it time to slow down that money 880 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 1: conversation versus when is it time to stop altogether? Meaning 881 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,560 Speaker 1: knowing your orange and your red flags for me, if 882 00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 1: I'm talking, if I'm having a money date with my partner, 883 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,520 Speaker 1: orange flags for me is that, um, I'm getting a 884 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,520 Speaker 1: little snappy, a little bit short with my answers. That's 885 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:23,439 Speaker 1: a cue that I'm like, you know what, I'm hitting 886 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:25,960 Speaker 1: that orange flag. I need five. And that could literally 887 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,640 Speaker 1: be I'm gonna go grab a glass of water, I'm 888 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,360 Speaker 1: gonna let the dog out, whatever it may be. But 889 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 1: a red flag is going to be when you're too 890 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:38,200 Speaker 1: heated to continue in that conversation without causing harm. So 891 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,040 Speaker 1: for me, that's when I completely shut down. That's when 892 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,640 Speaker 1: my short answers have gone to non existent. I know 893 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,759 Speaker 1: I've hit red flag territory and we have to hit 894 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,719 Speaker 1: pause and come back at a different time. Notice how 895 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 1: I say hit pause and don't ever come back. I'm 896 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:54,520 Speaker 1: saying hip pause. I'm not saying stop for ever, so 897 00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 1: saying you know what, I'm maxed out today. I'm really 898 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,560 Speaker 1: glad we're having this conversation, but I'm feeling myself really 899 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,080 Speaker 1: kind of heightened emotionally right now. Let's let's put a 900 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,040 Speaker 1: pen in it. We can come back to it tomorrow, 901 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:07,880 Speaker 1: or we can come back to it next week, whatever 902 00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 1: it may be. So those are a few things. Is 903 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:12,759 Speaker 1: making sure that you're carving out the time to talk 904 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,360 Speaker 1: about it, owning your part in it, acknowledging your orangine 905 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,640 Speaker 1: red flags. And one thing about having money dates is 906 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,439 Speaker 1: if you have them at a regular cadence, you don't 907 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 1: have to feel like you have to do everything all 908 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,879 Speaker 1: at once. So you can say, look, I just want 909 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,560 Speaker 1: to talk about taxes next time, or I just want 910 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,600 Speaker 1: to talk about our five twenty nine savings plan, or 911 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:33,360 Speaker 1: I want to talk about where we're going on vacation 912 00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:37,120 Speaker 1: next year. So making sure that you're thinking through those things. 913 00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: And I don't know if that was you joeler Matt 914 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:45,919 Speaker 1: who was like okay, okay, okay um. But the other 915 00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,600 Speaker 1: thing is thinking about talking about money as a way 916 00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:54,280 Speaker 1: to strengthen your relationship. So maybe talking about taxes isn't 917 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,120 Speaker 1: like super fun and exciting, but maybe you get them 918 00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,879 Speaker 1: when we're talking about vacations, and so when we think 919 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,160 Speaker 1: about what would it be like to be on that vacation, 920 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:04,680 Speaker 1: what are the things that we want to do, What 921 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:06,680 Speaker 1: are the values that are important to us that we 922 00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:09,480 Speaker 1: will have met when we take that trip. That also 923 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:13,200 Speaker 1: helps to add meaning to that specific financial goal. I 924 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,279 Speaker 1: feel like so much of what you're talking about here too, 925 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,240 Speaker 1: so many the way use you the ways you framed 926 00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 1: it are about being a team and and not pinning 927 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,200 Speaker 1: everything on one person. But also like you're talking about 928 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,680 Speaker 1: it as like you guys against something else fighting to 929 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,840 Speaker 1: achieve something, as opposed to like you and me against 930 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,080 Speaker 1: each other, and so much of that framing. Uh, I 931 00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:37,640 Speaker 1: think it's going to have a massive impact on Yeah, 932 00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:41,239 Speaker 1: the amount you're able to accomplish as a team. Yes, Yes, 933 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,120 Speaker 1: such a good point, because that's the thing. I think 934 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,279 Speaker 1: we come into these money conversations thinking I'm right and 935 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:51,440 Speaker 1: you're wrong or or whatever versus. The goal is to 936 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,319 Speaker 1: make sure that we have enough money to do the 937 00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,120 Speaker 1: things that we want to do, so we can practice 938 00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,880 Speaker 1: financial self care and have a healthy relationship with money, 939 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,600 Speaker 1: because money is a tool that affords us the ability 940 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:03,680 Speaker 1: to do the other things that we want to do. 941 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,480 Speaker 1: So if we're on the same team, if we're collaborating 942 00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,720 Speaker 1: towards that goal, then it is like encouraging one another 943 00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:13,640 Speaker 1: and cheering each other on and being um duo like 944 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,759 Speaker 1: a duo as you work towards this school. So it's 945 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:19,279 Speaker 1: so so important to make sure you're talking about it 946 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:21,719 Speaker 1: and you're you're on the same page. Yeah, And I 947 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,120 Speaker 1: think finding some balance in those conversations as well too. 948 00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 1: I mean, you know you mentioned vacation, you're mentioning taxes. 949 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,359 Speaker 1: If if all you do is talk about the tax 950 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,520 Speaker 1: side of things, right, if you're only talking about your 951 00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:33,879 Speaker 1: debt and how underwater y'all are. If if you're only 952 00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,480 Speaker 1: talking about your credit card statements and how they're just 953 00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:40,399 Speaker 1: like five six, seven, eight pages long, now, um, that's 954 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,880 Speaker 1: going to be difficult to get the get your partner excited. 955 00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:45,919 Speaker 1: On the contrary, if you're only talking about the things 956 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:47,880 Speaker 1: that you want to achieve, I guess all the fun things. 957 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,319 Speaker 1: I think there can be a lack of where the 958 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,719 Speaker 1: rubber meets the road when it comes to those conversations, 959 00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:54,279 Speaker 1: and it's like, well that's that sounds great and all, 960 00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:55,680 Speaker 1: but how do we actually get there? It takes It 961 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,239 Speaker 1: takes that combination of both, and that's what you're talking 962 00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:02,280 Speaker 1: about here. So last question again, the financial therapy industry. 963 00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,440 Speaker 1: It seems like it's still in its infancy, and we 964 00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:06,560 Speaker 1: talked through a lot of tips. You've given a lot 965 00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,160 Speaker 1: of great information here where folks can kind of take 966 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,520 Speaker 1: that information and just enacted within their own lives. But 967 00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:15,160 Speaker 1: how can folks find an actual financial therapist? Of that's 968 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,640 Speaker 1: what they're looking for. So a great way to find 969 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,560 Speaker 1: a financial therapist is obviously you can type in financial 970 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,759 Speaker 1: therapist plus my state. You know, Google will do It's 971 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,200 Speaker 1: it's magic there. Um, the Financial Therapy Association has a 972 00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,760 Speaker 1: directory of financial therapist. But the asterisk I will include 973 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:34,120 Speaker 1: here is that anybody can be a member of the 974 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:37,879 Speaker 1: Financial Therapy Association. So some people are financial planners who 975 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:41,279 Speaker 1: don't necessarily have a certificate in financial therapy. But at 976 00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,120 Speaker 1: least you're narrowing in on the types of people who 977 00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:48,560 Speaker 1: are interested in practicing holistic financial planning. So um, you know, 978 00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:50,480 Speaker 1: as I said, hopefully more and more people will be 979 00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,480 Speaker 1: on that directory as time goes on, but for now, 980 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:55,600 Speaker 1: you can you can turn to Google. You can turn 981 00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:59,880 Speaker 1: to the Financial Therapy Association directory to try and find somebody. 982 00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,319 Speaker 1: And a lot of financial planners do have that holistic view, 983 00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:06,240 Speaker 1: so you can can read through some of those bios 984 00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:07,759 Speaker 1: and see if there might be somebody who kind of 985 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,759 Speaker 1: fits the bill. Gotcha, Lindsay, this has been such an 986 00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,439 Speaker 1: awesome conversation. Thank you so much for joining us. Where 987 00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:15,440 Speaker 1: can our listeners find out more about you and what 988 00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:18,440 Speaker 1: you're up to. My business is called Mind Money Balance. 989 00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:22,560 Speaker 1: My website, podcast, YouTube, Instagram are all of the same names, 990 00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:24,960 Speaker 1: so you can come chat with me in any of 991 00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,600 Speaker 1: those places. And I was joeling Matt mentioned my quiz 992 00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:31,120 Speaker 1: is free. It's Mind Money Balance dot com slash quiz. 993 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:33,320 Speaker 1: If you want to learn more about your financial archetype, 994 00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:35,880 Speaker 1: that's right. Well, we will make sure to point folks 995 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,120 Speaker 1: to all of those different links. Lindsay, thank you for 996 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,520 Speaker 1: joining us today. Thank you all right, Matt, what a 997 00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,760 Speaker 1: great conversation. And you know, you and I we try 998 00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:45,799 Speaker 1: not to just talk about the nuts and bolton. I'll 999 00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,680 Speaker 1: just be over here and making the weird noises as 1000 00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:52,120 Speaker 1: you do. Yeah, it does get weird sometimes, but you 1001 00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:53,719 Speaker 1: know we we you and I were often talking about 1002 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,279 Speaker 1: nuts and bolts. We try to incorporate other elements. We 1003 00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:58,480 Speaker 1: try to talk about psychology and motivation, and we try 1004 00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:00,480 Speaker 1: to make sure that we're running the full game. But 1005 00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,320 Speaker 1: this is a place where we're really out of our depths, 1006 00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:04,520 Speaker 1: and so I'm glad we were able to bring Lindsey 1007 00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:06,839 Speaker 1: on to discuss from the finer points of dealing with 1008 00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:11,120 Speaker 1: financial anxiety and handling money better from an emotional standpoint. 1009 00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:14,080 Speaker 1: What what was your big takeaway from this conversation. Yeah, well, 1010 00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:18,280 Speaker 1: since tomorrow is Valentine's Day, Happy v Day to everyone 1011 00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,439 Speaker 1: out there, I'm gonna focus on I guess maybe the relationals. 1012 00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:23,399 Speaker 1: Like towards the end of the conversation, they were talking 1013 00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:27,160 Speaker 1: about relationships, and specifically she was talking about money dates 1014 00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,040 Speaker 1: and the way that you make those successful is that 1015 00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,279 Speaker 1: you carve out the time on your calendar to make 1016 00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:34,920 Speaker 1: sure that that is something that is going to happen. Um. 1017 00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:36,880 Speaker 1: I look back on my life and the most some 1018 00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:38,919 Speaker 1: of the most successful things that I've ever been able 1019 00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,240 Speaker 1: to accomplish is because I scheduled it, like literally because 1020 00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:44,640 Speaker 1: it was on the calendar, whether it was something that 1021 00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:48,440 Speaker 1: was somewhat passive and more automated a k A repeat 1022 00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:52,359 Speaker 1: every week, or whether it was just looking ahead and saying, hey, 1023 00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:55,440 Speaker 1: let's let's talk about this once this date rolls around. Uh. 1024 00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:58,000 Speaker 1: And so it just takes being intentional. Uh. And I 1025 00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:00,520 Speaker 1: like what she said, what Lindsay was saying about like 1026 00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,520 Speaker 1: money conversations can't buy this can't be this drive by thing. 1027 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:05,200 Speaker 1: It can't be this thing where you're just like, oh, hey, 1028 00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,960 Speaker 1: by the way, we're over our limit on our dollar card. 1029 00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,360 Speaker 1: Let's talk about that sometime. It takes being intentional, getting 1030 00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,160 Speaker 1: a date on the calendar, allowing the other partner to 1031 00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,680 Speaker 1: have some time to process, oh, hey, we are going 1032 00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:19,520 Speaker 1: to talk about money, not to get anxious about it, 1033 00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,279 Speaker 1: but for them to realize, oh, okay, cool, let's let's 1034 00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,520 Speaker 1: make sure we've got the right information, the right data, 1035 00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,200 Speaker 1: glass of wine, maybe crack open a nice beer, that 1036 00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:28,919 Speaker 1: kind of thing to make it fun as well. Yeah, 1037 00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:30,480 Speaker 1: And if you're a single person and if it's on 1038 00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:32,239 Speaker 1: your calendar, it's more likely to happen. And if you 1039 00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,000 Speaker 1: are a couple and it's on your shared calendar, is 1040 00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:38,239 Speaker 1: way more likely. But if you're hey, maybe this weekend sometime, 1041 00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,600 Speaker 1: let's let's get around to it, probably not gonna happen 1042 00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:42,279 Speaker 1: because there's other sets that's gonna take the place. So 1043 00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:44,399 Speaker 1: I like setting it in stone somewhere on your calendar. 1044 00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:46,400 Speaker 1: I think it's being intentional, man, all right. So I 1045 00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:49,520 Speaker 1: think my big takeaway was when she said what is 1046 00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,359 Speaker 1: your good enough? And I was like, dang, that's good. 1047 00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,480 Speaker 1: That's really because I think there's so many times in 1048 00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,880 Speaker 1: life where we say like, yeah, I want to do that, 1049 00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,400 Speaker 1: and this happens a lot, I would say, with people 1050 00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:03,279 Speaker 1: who want to invest in real estate, and they're saying, 1051 00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:06,000 Speaker 1: but I gotta know every single this and or butt 1052 00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:08,600 Speaker 1: and until I get to that point, like, there's no 1053 00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:10,360 Speaker 1: way I can jump into this. And at some point 1054 00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:12,840 Speaker 1: you have to say, all right, I've done my due diligence. 1055 00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:14,520 Speaker 1: You have to do your due diligence right. You have 1056 00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:15,840 Speaker 1: to read a book, you have to kind of know 1057 00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:18,560 Speaker 1: what you're doing, you have to crunch numbers. But at 1058 00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,440 Speaker 1: some point, like there's a certain point, you're just gonna 1059 00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:22,880 Speaker 1: you gotta put an offer in on the house and 1060 00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,600 Speaker 1: you just got to own that second property. At some 1061 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:26,960 Speaker 1: point you have to do it. And so I think 1062 00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:28,880 Speaker 1: you got to figure out what you're good enough is. Uh. 1063 00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:32,680 Speaker 1: You can learn all of the many hundreds of reasons 1064 00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:35,480 Speaker 1: why investing in index funds inside of your foll own 1065 00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:39,160 Speaker 1: k is a good thing for your financial future, But 1066 00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,480 Speaker 1: you could also learn just a few things and say 1067 00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:43,480 Speaker 1: that's good enough. That's good enough, I know enough to 1068 00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:45,600 Speaker 1: at least get started, and you can always go back 1069 00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:47,319 Speaker 1: and learn more on the back end, which I think 1070 00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,320 Speaker 1: is good. It's kind of fun too. Now that you're started, 1071 00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:53,279 Speaker 1: get even deeper, but you gotta get started. What you 1072 00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:55,360 Speaker 1: got some of that skin in the game, it becomes 1073 00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:57,239 Speaker 1: way more real, and there's just lessons that you learn 1074 00:53:57,360 --> 00:53:59,960 Speaker 1: from having skin in the game, right from having started 1075 00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,600 Speaker 1: and opened that roth Eyra, from having initiating that transaction, 1076 00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,080 Speaker 1: all of those things that you learn along the way. Yeah, 1077 00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:10,240 Speaker 1: that's when she was talking about how essentially like perfectionism, 1078 00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,560 Speaker 1: it's the flip side of procrastination, And that one stung 1079 00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:17,560 Speaker 1: a little bit because that's totally my totally my m O. 1080 00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:19,719 Speaker 1: You just like open your guts, impeared into your soul. 1081 00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:22,680 Speaker 1: Right then, uh, maybe she'll she'll camp me that first 1082 00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:27,879 Speaker 1: session she mentioned calling you out publicly. I'm totally fine 1083 00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:30,440 Speaker 1: with it. I would not have mentioned it if I wasn't. 1084 00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:32,759 Speaker 1: But let's go ahead and get to the beer that 1085 00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:35,600 Speaker 1: you and I enjoyed during this episode. This was a 1086 00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:39,440 Speaker 1: Mexican logger. This was by High Cotton Brewing. What were 1087 00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,160 Speaker 1: your thoughts on this one? But my first thought was 1088 00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:45,040 Speaker 1: you forgot to bring the line, dude. Okay, that's on you. 1089 00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:47,200 Speaker 1: If you need line with your beer to enjoy it. 1090 00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:49,920 Speaker 1: You you're drinking the wrong beer. But it's a Mexican logger. 1091 00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:51,920 Speaker 1: That's the only beer you're supposed to put it in, right, 1092 00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,600 Speaker 1: well supposedly, Yeah, if you're into that. Well, So this 1093 00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:57,799 Speaker 1: one was like really really crisp. I thought it was. Yeah, 1094 00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:00,000 Speaker 1: you just think that's the oldest. That's the best adgict 1095 00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,040 Speaker 1: if I have to describe this one, it definitely takes 1096 00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,520 Speaker 1: it like a Mexican logger, but maybe a slightly finer 1097 00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:08,399 Speaker 1: craft beer or version of a Mexican logger. And so yeah, 1098 00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,719 Speaker 1: I did not need a lime, but I would be 1099 00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:12,880 Speaker 1: interested to see what it tasted like. One. Yeah, I 1100 00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,040 Speaker 1: had that snap. It makes me think of like a 1101 00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:18,839 Speaker 1: it's just a fresh head of iceberg lettuce and you're 1102 00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:22,880 Speaker 1: just like yeah, yeah, exactly. Um for me, like, I 1103 00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:24,880 Speaker 1: feel like it almost had like some white wine qualities 1104 00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,480 Speaker 1: to it. Uh, And some Mexican loggers don't typically have 1105 00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:30,200 Speaker 1: all a ton of death, but this one, I don't know. 1106 00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:32,640 Speaker 1: It was crisp, but simultaneously it it kind of had 1107 00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,120 Speaker 1: what i'll oftentimes, So is it is it pino griggio? 1108 00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:37,879 Speaker 1: Is that that's a that's a type of white worms 1109 00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:39,439 Speaker 1: be the wrong guy. Yeah, no, it is a type 1110 00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:41,880 Speaker 1: of wine. I knew know that. That's so, that's the 1111 00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:45,279 Speaker 1: kind that sometimes is described as like smelling or even 1112 00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:47,719 Speaker 1: tasting like a new garden hose or like a fresh 1113 00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:50,600 Speaker 1: cane of tennis balls. This beer, I felt like this 1114 00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:53,320 Speaker 1: beer totally also have that, and it's not a negative 1115 00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:56,160 Speaker 1: things kind of just the flavor. It's not like when 1116 00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:57,840 Speaker 1: we say barn yard funk with a sayson. It's like 1117 00:55:57,840 --> 00:55:59,920 Speaker 1: some people would be like gross, no, no, no, it's 1118 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:02,200 Speaker 1: actually yeah, it's kind of a weird description, but it's 1119 00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:06,960 Speaker 1: also a way to kind of describe what you're tasting, like, yeah, personally, absolutely, 1120 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,040 Speaker 1: but this was a fantastic beer. I'm glad this was 1121 00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,440 Speaker 1: one that you were able to pick up for us. Man. Actually, 1122 00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:13,759 Speaker 1: this was my brother in law and sister in law 1123 00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,200 Speaker 1: they got to say. Yeah. So thanks to Ben and 1124 00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:18,320 Speaker 1: Rachel for grabbing this perple because they're up there in Memphis, 1125 00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:21,560 Speaker 1: which is where this beer is brewed. Yeah, thank you 1126 00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:25,320 Speaker 1: both Ben and Rachel for donating this one to the show. 1127 00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:27,759 Speaker 1: But Joel, that's gonna be it for this episode. We'll 1128 00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,120 Speaker 1: make sure to link to us some of the different 1129 00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:34,000 Speaker 1: resources that Lindsay shared there at the end of our conversation. 1130 00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:35,560 Speaker 1: You can find those up on our website how to 1131 00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:38,960 Speaker 1: money dot com. Maybe take that financial archetype quiz and 1132 00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:43,319 Speaker 1: let us know it was interesting and it was accurate. Yeah, yeah, 1133 00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,719 Speaker 1: it really was. It's funny. It's oftentimes you read those 1134 00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:49,200 Speaker 1: and you're like, how how did they know? But yeah, 1135 00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:50,840 Speaker 1: it's a lot of fun. But that's gonna be it 1136 00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:53,720 Speaker 1: for this episode until next time. Best Friends Out, Best 1137 00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:54,640 Speaker 1: Friends Out,