Speaker 1: This is Let's Be Clear with Shannon Doherty. Hi everyone,
Speaker 1: welcome to a new episode of Let's Be Clear with
Speaker 1: Shita and Doherty. I am over the moon right now
Speaker 1: because I have somebody that I have admired for a
Speaker 1: long time. Catherine Heigel, Like you guys know her twenty
Speaker 1: seven dresses, knocked up like Grey's Anatomy, Barflying Lane. Just
Speaker 1: her resume is insane, Hi, Kathy, but also she's insane.
Speaker 1: She's definitely well, I should just say it to your face.
Speaker 1: You're someone that I have definitely looked up to, and
Speaker 1: I admire your strength. I admire you know, your perseverance
Speaker 1: as a woman as an actor. You just the amount
Speaker 1: of self respect you have and the caring you have
Speaker 1: for you know, your other actors, like now as a
Speaker 1: producer and really watching out for women is astonishing to me.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. Well, I didn't know I was coming
Speaker 2: in for this kind of intro. I'm very uh, I'm
Speaker 2: feeling very very good about myself at this good. That
Speaker 2: was so nice and means means what it means a lot.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I mean listen, I had gone I sort
Speaker 1: of there's a lot of similarities between us that aren't
Speaker 1: instantly recognizable to a lot of people. But like when
Speaker 1: I really looked at you and broke everything down, and
Speaker 1: you know, I was like the biggest Grays fan and
Speaker 1: Izzy and I was like, oh my god, we're really
Speaker 1: getting Catherine on the show. I just sort of looked
Speaker 1: at it and went, wow, there were there were only
Speaker 1: a few women back then that stood up for themselves.
Speaker 2: Well you were the original, right, Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean I got fired for it multiple times. You know,
Speaker 1: you just you kept going and it was really impressive.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know any person except for you
Speaker 1: that turns down an Immy nomination.
Speaker 2: Well I didn't, and everybody keeps saying that I didn't
Speaker 2: turn it down. You know, you have to submit yourself.
Speaker 2: You have to submit your work and then they deliberate
Speaker 2: and then they decide if they want to give you
Speaker 2: a nomination. I just didn't submit my work that year.
Speaker 2: And I should you know, I don't know. My mother
Speaker 2: and I were talking about this recently. I should have
Speaker 2: said nothing. I should have said nothing. I should have
Speaker 2: just said oh I forgot, because it created such a
Speaker 2: maelstrom that was so unnecessary, and it really was. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I was kind of trying to make a bit of
Speaker 2: a snarky point about my material that year, but I
Speaker 2: was also just not feeling my material. I didn't think
Speaker 2: I had anything that warranted even the consideration for a nomination.
Speaker 2: I just wasn't proud of my work. So it was really,
Speaker 2: you know, I would never be so bold or so
Speaker 2: arrogant to turn down a nomination. I would take that nomination.
Speaker 2: I became my way. I'd be down, but I just knew,
Speaker 2: you know, there wasn't anything that would really warrant one
Speaker 2: that year, and I was trying to be honorable. I
Speaker 2: guess I was trying to have some integrity. I wasn't
Speaker 2: trying to be a dick.
Speaker 1: But you know what's funny is that had it been
Speaker 1: obviously a guy, they would have said like, oh, look
Speaker 1: at how honorable he is, like and instead because you're
Speaker 1: a woman, and you know, certainly back then it was
Speaker 1: a lot different than it is now. Although I'm the
Speaker 1: naysayer who's like, we haven't really changed that much in
Speaker 1: the business, you guys, not a ton.
Speaker 2: It's just a little more subversive now.
Speaker 1: It's a little more Yes, yes, they like to be
Speaker 1: a little bit more quiet about it. Of how you know,
Speaker 1: the men still really lead the charge and women have
Speaker 1: a role to play. And yes, there are brave women
Speaker 1: like you that have bucked against that and said, not
Speaker 1: even trying to be you know, arroant, which they want
Speaker 1: to call you, not trying to be difficult do they
Speaker 1: want to call you? I've been called all of these
Speaker 1: things as well. I get that, but it's it's none
Speaker 1: of that. It's the fact that you're just trying to
Speaker 1: be truthful to yourself right and hold yourself to a
Speaker 1: certain standards.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was always about that, and I'm very fortunate
Speaker 2: I have my mother who has always been, you know,
Speaker 2: my biggest support system and also my partner in all
Speaker 2: of this. We are, you know, business partners, and so
Speaker 2: I always had another strong woman who kind of had
Speaker 2: my back and like somebody to bounce it off of.
Speaker 2: And sometimes we would rile each other up, no doubt,
Speaker 2: but most of the time it was like I just
Speaker 2: felt like the right thing to do and the right
Speaker 2: thing to say, and she was like, yeah, I got you,
Speaker 2: You're right, you know. And so I don't know that
Speaker 2: I would have been quite so forthright without the support,
Speaker 2: you know, I would have been more afraid. I think,
Speaker 2: but I don't know. It's shamed me for a long time.
Speaker 2: I spent probably, I want to say, like all of
Speaker 2: my mid thirties, oh like from thirty five to forty,
Speaker 2: I spent just trying to be as quiet and as
Speaker 2: polite and as sweet and as just kind of disappearing
Speaker 2: as much as possible, and it still didn't work. So
Speaker 2: then I, I don't know, I hit forty and I
Speaker 2: went fuck this. But life is really too short, and
Speaker 2: you know, I, like you said, I just want to
Speaker 2: I just want to be true to myself. I'm not
Speaker 2: trying to make I never never go out there with
Speaker 2: the intention of ever making anybody else feel bad or
Speaker 2: to bully them, or to upset them or hurt feelings.
Speaker 2: That's so outside my intention. I'm sure I have on
Speaker 2: occasion by mistake or accident, but I will. I don't
Speaker 2: like being bullied either, and I don't have a very
Speaker 2: sort of calm, political rational reaction to that. I tend
Speaker 2: to I tend to get out my boxing gloves.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, I completely understand that. And again
Speaker 1: I applaud you for it, because you know, like I was,
Speaker 1: I think I was freshly fired off of charmed when
Speaker 1: like Grays started and I watched it, and obviously I
Speaker 1: was a big fan of the show. But then with
Speaker 1: you and your character, there is such a vulnerability to
Speaker 1: Izzy that you brought to that character, but also like
Speaker 1: a strength to her that was very that I think women,
Speaker 1: particularly young younger women needed that role to like see
Speaker 1: and to really understand what you could do. And then
Speaker 1: it wasn't about like sleeping your way somewhere, you know,
Speaker 1: it was about her determination in her life, all done
Speaker 1: in this you know, very funny way. There was just
Speaker 1: such a humor about you on that show along with
Speaker 1: the vulnerability that was like wow, you know, that's great,
Speaker 1: Like what a character to have during that time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was great. And I think that, you know,
Speaker 2: so much of that is attributed to to Shonda and
Speaker 2: her creation of these characters. So much of it is
Speaker 2: attributed to the sort of lightning in a bottle of
Speaker 2: that cast together at that time, which again was kind
Speaker 2: of Shonda, you know, figuring out this. Some of it
Speaker 2: is you can't know, you don't know how it's going
Speaker 2: to quite kind of come together and how it's going
Speaker 2: to work, but it just did. And then as I
Speaker 2: think the writers got to know us more individually, like
Speaker 2: Izzy sort of that's who I was at that age.
Speaker 2: I mean I was twenty four, I think when the
Speaker 2: show started, and I was thirty two maybe or thirty
Speaker 2: one when I left. I was Izzy. You know, I
Speaker 2: was really insecure. I was, but also I still had
Speaker 2: that fight in me. I still didn't like it when
Speaker 2: people kind of pushed me around or told me I
Speaker 2: couldn't or told me I shouldn't or told me, you
Speaker 2: know that I wouldn't be able to kind of think
Speaker 2: I so a lot of who she was. And it
Speaker 2: was funny because I wouldn't have said that at the time,
Speaker 2: but now looking back at her, I think, you know,
Speaker 2: that was that was kind of who I was. Then.
Speaker 2: There was a lot of just young woman in security,
Speaker 2: you know, just not really knowing if I had a
Speaker 2: right to like take up space.
Speaker 1: But also conviction, Like there just seemed to me with
Speaker 1: you and your character that there was a lot of
Speaker 1: conviction in being truthful and in doing what you know,
Speaker 1: you really felt was right, whether it be cutting that
Speaker 1: bad there you.
Speaker 2: Go, Juriel bad. I will never not know that word.
Speaker 1: But like that was, you know, for your character, that
Speaker 1: was a huge thing and it really showed like your
Speaker 1: love for this man and your conviction for what you
Speaker 1: believed to be the right thing, which I always sort
Speaker 1: of paralleled to you as a human of like, wow,
Speaker 1: you know, Catherine's gonna stand up for what she really
Speaker 1: believes is right, which, again, particularly for back then, that
Speaker 1: was like a very big thing. And on an ensemble
Speaker 1: cast for a show that sort of came out huge
Speaker 1: right away, it was incredibly popular. I just you know
Speaker 1: that that could not have been easy for you.
Speaker 2: I think it was. It was easy until it wasn't,
Speaker 2: you know, because there was a moment when it sort
Speaker 2: of depended on what I was standing up for, right
Speaker 2: So when I was sort of standing up for my
Speaker 2: co star and you know, coming out against bigotry and
Speaker 2: that sort of thing, it was, you know, applauded and appreciated.
Speaker 2: When I stood for myself, it wasn't quite taken quite
Speaker 2: the same way. And so then it stopped being easy
Speaker 2: to be to do that, to speak my truth. Then
Speaker 2: I then I just ship hell up as much as
Speaker 2: I could for a long time, and I pretty much
Speaker 2: just ran away. And so I love you so much
Speaker 2: for speaking to my strength, But I wasn't. I think
Speaker 2: sometimes I was, but I was also sometimes just deeply,
Speaker 2: I just was deeply insecure and afraid that all those
Speaker 2: opinions that had so quickly shifted were true, you know,
Speaker 2: that those opinions meant more than my own opinion of myself.
Speaker 2: And it took me till about forty to really to stop,
Speaker 2: you know, to stop apologizing, to stop beating myself up
Speaker 2: about it, to stop regretting the choices and decisions i'd
Speaker 2: made in the things I'd said, and kind of just
Speaker 2: learn and move forward. And it gave me a clarity
Speaker 2: about like, Okay, there are some things I don't need
Speaker 2: to get real mouthy about. You know, some things can
Speaker 2: remain behind closed doors, but there are things I will
Speaker 2: be very loud about and screw the consequences quite frankly.
Speaker 2: Like it taught me that I just, yeah, I want
Speaker 2: to be able to sleep at night like anybody else.
Speaker 2: I want to not feel like I just played a
Speaker 2: game the whole time. It's not a game to me.
Speaker 2: You know, Hollywood is complicated. I'm sure many industries are,
Speaker 2: but it's it's not a game. And I'm not a politician,
Speaker 2: so I'm not good at that. I decided I don't
Speaker 2: care if I am or not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think if you think about back
Speaker 1: then as well, those voices that were telling you that
Speaker 1: you were wrong or you know, making you into a
Speaker 1: villain or spoiled or whatever. If they, you know, the
Speaker 1: majority of them, Let's face it, our networks will run
Speaker 1: by men. And I think that from personally. I look
Speaker 1: back and I'm like, well, they never really liked a
Speaker 1: very strong woman. They really liked women to know their place.
Speaker 1: Like I was told to, you know, shut up and
Speaker 1: get on my mark multiple times by somebody at Aaron
Speaker 1: Spellings Company, and I be like, wait, what you don't
Speaker 1: pay me enough to do that. Yeah, you know, like
Speaker 1: if you want me to be completely quiet and not
Speaker 1: have an opinion, you have to pay me a lot
Speaker 1: more money. So I sound better about going to work, right,
Speaker 1: Otherwise I need to have an opinion. I need to
Speaker 1: have a say. I need to, you know, stand up
Speaker 1: for the fact that the crew is working way too
Speaker 1: long of hours that you know, the actors were working
Speaker 1: long hours. You know, sixteen hour days is insane because
Speaker 1: what people don't realize is that it's you know, I
Speaker 1: always lived an hour away from where I was filming,
Speaker 1: so for me, it was really an eighteen hour day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: at least at least and when you get home, you're
Speaker 1: all like, you know, sped up and jack and you're
Speaker 1: thinking about your day and what work you did, so
Speaker 1: you can't go to bed right away. It's exhausting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you just keep doing that five days a week,
Speaker 1: and you know, your weekends, you end up having no life.
Speaker 1: I know for us it was, you know, lots of
Speaker 1: publicity on the weekends and photo shoots and when you
Speaker 1: are that woman who finally looks at people and says,
Speaker 1: this is enough. You cannot abuse the crew, you can't
Speaker 1: abuse us as cast members, it doesn't go over so well.
Speaker 2: No, it's bizarre. It's actually a bizarre reaction. To me,
Speaker 2: I don't really totally understand it because I think, well,
Speaker 2: whuldn't it save you money to do this more expediently,
Speaker 2: Like what, I don't understand the reaction. You know, it's
Speaker 2: such a strange industry and that it's business, but it's
Speaker 2: creative and it's a creative collaboration. It's not a one woman,
Speaker 2: one man show, not when it's television or film or
Speaker 2: most Broadway. I mean, I'm sure there are a few
Speaker 2: one woman shows that work, but this was this takes
Speaker 2: everybody's collective effort and it's a million moving parts. I
Speaker 2: understand that that that can take a minute to find
Speaker 2: a rhythm, but it should take no more than a minute. Months,
Speaker 2: you know, this is and it just costs them more
Speaker 2: money in the long run. I never quite understood what
Speaker 2: this sort of shut up and don't bite the hand
Speaker 2: that feeds you mentality was. It was like, well, you're
Speaker 2: just you're just wasting money, like as a sort of
Speaker 2: producer inside, because I love producing and I like have
Speaker 2: like I really love organization, and I'm like, I got
Speaker 2: a plan, I got a plan. I know exactly how
Speaker 2: we can do this. And it's like, no, let's make
Speaker 2: it as chaotic and you know, crazy and exhausting and
Speaker 2: dangerous and and cost as much as possible. That sounds
Speaker 2: like a bad plan.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's move the camera thirty times for you know,
Speaker 1: one scene. It's a very bizarre thing that I would
Speaker 1: notice with some of our guest directors. They would come
Speaker 1: in and it was it was as if they had
Speaker 1: not worked before, even though they were successful and they
Speaker 1: had worked, but they were all about like, this is
Speaker 1: my time and I'm going to stretch it as much
Speaker 1: as I want. And on like our fourteen, I would
Speaker 1: be like, are you kidding? Yeah, Like we don't need
Speaker 1: to do ten takes. We're all professionals here. We nailed
Speaker 1: it on the first take. And why do you have
Speaker 1: you know, four different close ups of me? Like my
Speaker 1: face is not that interesting. We don't need this.
Speaker 2: It only makes so many expressions.
Speaker 1: Right, like it was. Really it would get very frustrating,
Speaker 1: and I was pretty vocal about it. I also was,
Speaker 1: you know, second season, I started directing, and I was
Speaker 1: a really fast director. I was one of those that
Speaker 1: you know, one time I wrapped before lunch. We started
Speaker 1: at seven, I got done at twelve and they were like,
Speaker 1: you can't wrap this early, and I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I've already shot scenes from tomorrow, so like we're
Speaker 1: not going to have anything to shoot tomorrow.
Speaker 2: But they should love that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they should have loved that because.
Speaker 2: It saves them so much money and production is crazy expensive,
Speaker 2: I mean.
Speaker 1: And it gives a crew a break, you know, all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, they work safer and more efficiently, and
Speaker 1: you know, the actors, when we're refreshed, we have time
Speaker 1: to like go home and have a life and learn
Speaker 1: our lines and our scene and our character more. We
Speaker 1: have just more time to put into the show to
Speaker 1: make it better. Yet it was like no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you can't. You know, wrap before twelve hours and I
Speaker 1: had no clue how to make it last until twelve hours.
Speaker 1: It was like I just I can't. I can't do this,
Speaker 1: Like it's going to be I'm going to be quick
Speaker 1: and you guys are going to have to deal with it.
Speaker 2: Well, you sound like my dream. So I want to
Speaker 2: direct me.
Speaker 1: I'm in Well, I'll direct you anytime. It would be
Speaker 1: a huge honor. I got to ask you something because
Speaker 1: another thing I admire about you. You have a animal
Speaker 1: sanctuary and foundation. Correct we're supposed to have.
Speaker 2: I keep trying to get my mother to kind of
Speaker 2: slow down on the whole rescuing them ourselves thing. We
Speaker 2: don't have a staff for that. We don't have you know,
Speaker 2: we have a beautiful ranch here in Utah. I live
Speaker 2: in Utah, and we have a kennel on the ranch
Speaker 2: for like those cases that my mom just can't say
Speaker 2: no to and cannot see them be put to death,
Speaker 2: and we bring them up and we kind of give
Speaker 2: them a safe place to stay until we can somebody
Speaker 2: some other rescue or get them an adopted. But we
Speaker 2: don't even have like really the structure for getting them
Speaker 2: posted up for adoption or any of it. So we
Speaker 2: end up with like my mother herself personally has fourteen
Speaker 2: dogs she's almost eighty one, and I have six now,
Speaker 2: and it's like, Okay, we need to recruit some people
Speaker 2: to step in and help because we can't take them all.
Speaker 2: But yes, we have an animal advocacy foundation my mother
Speaker 2: really started and named after my brother, who was killed
Speaker 2: in a car accident in eighty six, so a long
Speaker 2: time ago, but it was my mother's way of feeling
Speaker 2: like she could give him a legacy that he couldn't
Speaker 2: give himself and do something that was really inspiring and
Speaker 2: passionate for her and for me. We're just big animal
Speaker 2: people and we have a huge crisis in our country.
Speaker 2: And so for the last I wanst say, fifteen years
Speaker 2: we've been you get, like my mother keeps saying, sort
Speaker 2: of like the mafia, like once you're in, you're in,
Speaker 2: you can't get out because once you know and you're
Speaker 2: made aware and you see it, you can't you can't
Speaker 2: turn away. So we just keep plugging along trying to
Speaker 2: make a difference. It's tough. It's one of those problems
Speaker 2: that there is a solution. It's just to get everybody
Speaker 2: on board to move in that direction. It's difficult. There's
Speaker 2: so many opinions and people involved, laws and lawmakers. But
Speaker 2: we're trying. So Yeah, it's really passion.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I know it's really bad here in
Speaker 1: Los Angeles that like Downy, and there's a couple of rescues,
Speaker 1: not rescues, but shelters that are really bad. That the
Speaker 1: rate that they uthanize the dogs is insane, Like the
Speaker 1: dogs are there for a couple of days. I's held
Speaker 1: in the back, not even seen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's almost impossible. And I can't even blame
Speaker 2: the shelter workers or the shelters. They are sewing over
Speaker 2: the heads. They are so overwhelmed and these are not
Speaker 2: My mom works with a lot of those shelters and
Speaker 2: with Downey and with easily all.
Speaker 1: Of it, Lancaster, all of those.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and these people are trying so hard, but there
Speaker 2: is there aren't enough people at this point to rescue
Speaker 2: and adopt these dogs. There's more dogs than there are people,
Speaker 2: and We recently talked to Matt who runs the ASPCA,
Speaker 2: and he said, a big part of the problem is
Speaker 2: the the housing in Los Angeles has now a lot
Speaker 2: of it. A lot of the renters are not allowed
Speaker 2: to have animals, so people are relinquishing their animals so
Speaker 2: that they can get an apartment. And you know, here
Speaker 2: we are, and the breeding is a problem, and the.
Speaker 1: The Spade neuter laws not being upheld and forced.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean at this point they're putting down thousands,
Speaker 2: thousands probably you know, every month. It's bad. And these
Speaker 2: are adoptable, healthy animals. These are not you know, the complicated,
Speaker 2: difficult animals, the vicious or sick or elderly. These are
Speaker 2: like mothers with.
Speaker 1: Puppies, mothers with puppies, that's correct. Like I think I
Speaker 1: just reposted this woman Rita, who is a volunteer at
Speaker 1: a couple of different shelters, and she really goes in
Speaker 1: and plays with them and assesses them and you know,
Speaker 1: if they are like a bite risk, that's a different story.
Speaker 1: If they're this, they're that. But she really likes to
Speaker 1: do videos of showing that these dogs are, you know, wonderful,
Speaker 1: They're a wonderful addition, to a family. They may not
Speaker 1: be a pure breed. Maybe they are, but because they
Speaker 1: come from a shelter, if people aren't necessarily interested, which
Speaker 1: I don't really understand. I'm like, you can go get
Speaker 1: a German Shepherd from a shelter.
Speaker 2: I know. It was really weird the other day up
Speaker 2: here at my daughter's softball game there was a really
Speaker 2: cute German Shepherd puppy and I went to pet them,
Speaker 2: and you know, I said, did you did you rescue
Speaker 2: because there are so many There are so many German
Speaker 2: shepherds and so many beautiful German Shepherd puppies and so I,
Speaker 2: you know, and he went, no, we got this one
Speaker 2: from a breeder in Costa Rica. I went coast, like,
Speaker 2: you went to Costa Rica to get a dog? We
Speaker 2: have thousands in the shelters here that are like basically free, bro.
Speaker 2: I mean, you might have to pay like a small
Speaker 2: fee to the shelter, but like, it's just it's a
Speaker 2: little insane to me, the idea that people are actually
Speaker 2: like spending their money that like buying a dog that
Speaker 2: might be a couple grand, when they could be rescuing
Speaker 2: one that's equally as wonderful, equally as beautiful, equally as
Speaker 2: perfect a family dog for like two hundred bucks. You know,
Speaker 2: it's just kind of a here I go again with
Speaker 2: my whole like budgeting. But I just I don't get it.
Speaker 2: I think there's a real misconception about rescuing, which is
Speaker 2: really unford fortunate. I thought by now that more people
Speaker 2: would get it that, you know, the idea of like
Speaker 2: a pure bread purchased dog is kind of a fallacy.
Speaker 2: You can't purchase perfection, Like there's no guarantee that the
Speaker 2: dog will I had Like before, I knew there was
Speaker 2: a problem. Back when I was like nineteen, I bought
Speaker 2: a miniature Schnauzer Romeo from a breeder in San Diego.
Speaker 2: Purchased this dog from an upstanding breeder. He was the
Speaker 2: weirdest looking Schauzer like with his like crazy long back legs,
Speaker 2: and he was real curmudgeony. You know, you're not guaranteeing
Speaker 2: some kind of perfect animal if you buy it, Like,
Speaker 2: I don't know if people just don't realize that. I
Speaker 2: don't know if it's a status thing. I don't know
Speaker 2: what it is. I wish I could just get megaphone
Speaker 2: and explain.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's it is from you know, a totally
Speaker 1: different like decade that just keeps on rolling over because
Speaker 1: I know, you know, I did the same thing. I
Speaker 1: got a German shepherd from Germany. You know, paid an
Speaker 1: astronomical amount. Was she amazing? Yes, she was? She was.
Speaker 1: She came trained. You know, you could not get near
Speaker 1: me without that dog, you know, growling at you or
Speaker 1: warning you to back off. I felt very safe around her.
Speaker 1: You know. When I got married, my husband at the
Speaker 1: time gave me a new German Shepherd because my other
Speaker 1: German shepherd had passed. And yes, she comes from a
Speaker 1: breeder in Germany. But I'm like, I love my dog
Speaker 1: more than anything else in the world. I just wish
Speaker 1: that she was not so high strung, which is what
Speaker 1: you get from a lot of these breeders. You get
Speaker 1: the dog that's like a little off mentally, a little
Speaker 1: too aggressive to this to that, Because then I would have,
Speaker 1: you know, twenty dogs running around my property versus you know,
Speaker 1: one who if she sees another dog, she's in a
Speaker 1: lunge and try to kill it. Yeah, but that mentality
Speaker 1: does come from a different decade. I think it comes
Speaker 1: from like the nineties, where it was a little bit
Speaker 1: more about decadence and status and all of that. But
Speaker 1: we're in the two thousands. Why we don't understand that
Speaker 1: every single time that we get from a breeder a dog,
Speaker 1: that we're taking away the life of probably ten dogs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's a like a odd discrepancy between
Speaker 2: you know, this little beautiful dog that you're looking at
Speaker 2: that you got from your breeder and being able to
Speaker 2: see that there are hundreds of them just like your
Speaker 2: dog that you love so much that you would do
Speaker 2: anything for suffering. It's like it's like you can't kind
Speaker 2: of put the two together or something. A lot of
Speaker 2: people and I didn't you know until I It was
Speaker 2: like a random thing. My mom went to go get
Speaker 2: her nails done and saw sign on the salon door
Speaker 2: about like a rescue meeting, uh, you know, help meeting donations,
Speaker 2: and she was like, oh, I can help, And she
Speaker 2: wrote a check, but she forgot to sign it. So
Speaker 2: the woman who ran the rescue was at her door
Speaker 2: like the next day, you know, because they need that
Speaker 2: money so badly. And so they struck up kind of
Speaker 2: a friendship and a relationship, and my mother became more
Speaker 2: and more aware than made me more and more aware
Speaker 2: she's really good at lecturing me, and yeah, I guess.
Speaker 2: And then I was like, oh, well, no, I can't
Speaker 2: turn back, you know, because I had purchased three of
Speaker 2: the dogs I've had, yeah, and all Schnauzer's always like
Speaker 2: a Schnauzer person, and thinking that was the only way.
Speaker 2: And then now it's like I can. I say to
Speaker 2: my friends all the time, if you're, you know, ready
Speaker 2: for a dog, or if you want a family dog,
Speaker 2: or if you want another family dog when one has passed,
Speaker 2: just call. We can get you pretty much anything for rescue.
Speaker 2: Like it's crazy. There's so many purebreads and purebread rescues
Speaker 2: out there. There's no at this point, there's really no
Speaker 2: reason to purchase unless you're purchasing like a fully trained
Speaker 2: because you're gonna pay for that regardless of what we trained. Thought.
Speaker 2: Mine are like a one back there on my bed,
Speaker 2: but he's wearing his diaper because he's not trained. He's old.
Speaker 2: And it's not because he's old that he peeces all
Speaker 2: over my house. It's because he's not tracked. But I'm
Speaker 2: okay with that. Some people are not, so, you know,
Speaker 2: but I think that, yeah, I think at this point
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to be as loud about it as
Speaker 2: I can be without being like, without turning everybody off.
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, that's that is a big thing. People are,
Speaker 1: you know, they don't want to be hit over the
Speaker 1: head with the information. You have to feed it to
Speaker 1: them in just the right way. Yet I know that
Speaker 1: my personality is I get so upset and emotional about it.
Speaker 1: Like I do a lot of stuff with wild horses
Speaker 1: and just horses in general, and I'm astonished at the
Speaker 1: amount of horses that end up in slaughter pins because
Speaker 1: the people can't care for the horse anymore, or because
Speaker 1: they never took care of it properly, so now it's
Speaker 1: got a bad leg. Yet they don't really understand that
Speaker 1: that horse they're dropping it off at a slaughter pin,
Speaker 1: it's not going anywhere good. Is going to Mexico where
Speaker 1: they dismember it alive. So like, that's what you're doing
Speaker 1: to your horse that has maybe you know, helped you
Speaker 1: plow the fields for years and years and years. And
Speaker 1: then our wild horses. It's insane to me that we
Speaker 1: have a government that rounds up the wild horses, like
Speaker 1: the very fabric of what this country is about right,
Speaker 1: cowboys and Indians and horses and all of that. There's books,
Speaker 1: there's poems, there's songs written about it. So what's interesting
Speaker 1: to me is that we have somehow become a little
Speaker 1: desensitized to what we do to our animals. It's almost like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: you know, there's a clock on their life and it's time,
Speaker 1: so let me just drop them off with the shelter.
Speaker 1: Let me just drop them off it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's shocking. You would love my mother. And anytime
Speaker 2: you want to come up to Utah and ride any
Speaker 2: of our horses, just come or thank you. We have
Speaker 2: three wild horses on our ranch now from the on achy.
Speaker 2: We tried, we tried really hard to stop that roundup
Speaker 2: and we couldn't. And so all the people involved, there
Speaker 2: was lots of us, and every one of us rescued
Speaker 2: or took at least one or two so that they
Speaker 2: would not go to the slaughter pens. It's horrifying. It
Speaker 2: gives me chills. The lack of empathy and compassion to me,
Speaker 2: it's it's barbaric, and it makes me so angry, and
Speaker 2: I don't know sometimes how to even That's why I
Speaker 2: hide in Utah. I just I don't know how to
Speaker 2: deal with the world that can behave like this. So
Speaker 2: many people drop old sick dogs at the shelter after
Speaker 2: spending that dog's whole life with them, and then you
Speaker 2: just abandon them when they're old and sick and not
Speaker 2: you know, like play fetch anymore. Like it makes me
Speaker 2: I have no patience for that. I have no compassion.
Speaker 2: I suppose I should. Everybody has complicated lives, but I
Speaker 2: hate the idea of treating the innocent and the voiceless
Speaker 2: as if we aren't responsible for them, as if tecting
Speaker 2: them then our responsibility.
Speaker 1: So as if that person would want to be you know,
Speaker 1: dropped off. Like I look at myself and I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: I have cancer. You know, my cancer keeps on getting worse.
Speaker 1: I can't imagine if my mom, who essentially like lives
Speaker 1: with me basically three days week she's not here, but
Speaker 1: the rest of the time she's here, so she lives
Speaker 1: with me. I can't imagine her being like, oh god,
Speaker 1: it's just too exhausting to deal with Shannon in her cancer.
Speaker 1: I'm done, you know, like, who oh my god.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great analogy actually, because maybe that will
Speaker 2: make people really understand it because we're talking about I mean,
Speaker 2: I can get real like philosophical and go off into
Speaker 2: like weird spirit realms and stuff, but I truly believe
Speaker 2: that these creatures are of the same sort of divine
Speaker 2: or universal or positive energetic energy that we all are
Speaker 2: that runs through this whole world we have the great
Speaker 2: blessing of getting to live in and especially you know,
Speaker 2: here in Utah. But I just can't. I can't wrap
Speaker 2: my brain around people who just don't seem to understand
Speaker 2: that significance or oh, it's just an animal, it's like,
Speaker 2: but it's still feelings, and it feels pain and fear
Speaker 2: and loneliness, and you can't relate human like, what's the
Speaker 2: problem here. I don't know. I'm that's one of those
Speaker 2: things I'll get real mouthing about.
Speaker 1: Well, no, because it's true. It's like, all right, well,
Speaker 1: you know you go to Yulin and be burned alive
Speaker 1: and do all of this stuff. It's again, you're right,
Speaker 1: we have no empathy or some people, the majority of people,
Speaker 1: it seems, are devoid of empathy anymore for animals, for
Speaker 1: living things. And you know, I'm certainly not preachy where
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, you should all be vegans. You should
Speaker 1: be vegetarians, like I'm not. I go back and forth
Speaker 1: from trying to be a vegetarian too then feeling like, Okay,
Speaker 1: my body needs a little bit more protein. So it's
Speaker 1: not about being preachy. It's about putting yourself in a
Speaker 1: a animal shoes who that you know feels all of
Speaker 1: these things. I mean they all feel these things, but
Speaker 1: that you bring into your home, that you nurture, you love,
Speaker 1: They spend time with your children, They are part of
Speaker 1: your life for so long. And then you're like, well
Speaker 1: I just don't have time for this dog, or oh
Speaker 1: I have to move and the place I found doesn't
Speaker 1: accept animals. It's like, well, we'll look somewhere else.
Speaker 2: You'll find somewhere else.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, maybe you don't get to be in
Speaker 1: that neighborhood, maybe you go to a different neighborhood, but
Speaker 1: you'll find something. They don't just abandon a family member.
Speaker 2: And I wonder if people really understand too. And it's
Speaker 2: misleading when we say shelter. We think safe shelter, a
Speaker 2: place they can be and be safe. That's not what
Speaker 2: our shelters are anymore. I don't know if they ever were,
Speaker 2: but they certainly aren't now. They are where they house
Speaker 2: them uncomfortably in pens and cages with massive amounts of
Speaker 2: them barking and freaking out and scared for just a
Speaker 2: few days until they killed them in the back room.
Speaker 2: So that's what that's We need to change the name.
Speaker 2: It needs to be called prison for animals with you know,
Speaker 2: an an inherent death sentence. So I don't know, maybe
Speaker 2: people don't realize that. I know. I mean I've been
Speaker 2: in situations where I took an older dog from a
Speaker 2: really lovely older woman in Rhode Island when I was
Speaker 2: working there, and I had hoped the sign was part
Speaker 2: of the props, like set design and looking for a
Speaker 2: home for my old one hundred and Mojo was like
Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty pounds or something shepherd mix. I
Speaker 2: can no longer keep him, and I was like, who
Speaker 2: would do that? He's old and he's huge, Like who's
Speaker 2: going to take this dog? When I met her, you know,
Speaker 2: she had lost her job, she needed to move in
Speaker 2: with her daughters. They lived in a place where they
Speaker 2: could not have an animal, certainly not that size, and
Speaker 2: she had a young son who with a disability and
Speaker 2: he was in a wheelchair and he was so attached
Speaker 2: to this dog, but because of his living situation, he
Speaker 2: couldn't take him either, because he was in an assisted
Speaker 2: living situation. It was the most awful. I said, I
Speaker 2: will take your dog, and they brought him. I was
Speaker 2: so sad. And they brought him to set and they
Speaker 2: took ad bite to him, and it was so awful.
Speaker 2: And this poor kid was just devastated. And his mother
Speaker 2: was devastated because she didn't want to do this to
Speaker 2: him either, but she didn't have a choice. And that
Speaker 2: dog sat in my trailer and just toweled for hours.
Speaker 2: It was I don't know that he ever really recovered.
Speaker 2: It was so sad. But that's like, that's what I
Speaker 2: think people are missing when they do it cavalierly. You know,
Speaker 2: this dog only knows you, only loves you, feels its
Speaker 2: life purpose is to be your companion. And so when
Speaker 2: you abandon it, it doesn't un understand, It doesn't know why,
Speaker 2: you know, it doesn't have the ability to. It must
Speaker 2: have been just too much for him. They don't they
Speaker 2: just wait, they wait for you to return.
Speaker 1: No, they're getting dumped at a shelter that I can't
Speaker 1: remember the name of the shelter, But it wasn't that
Speaker 1: long ago. It was like maybe a month ago or
Speaker 1: something where it came out that they weren't even using
Speaker 1: the uh you know, the shot that they give before
Speaker 1: they euthanize the dog in order to like calm it
Speaker 1: down where it doesn't feel the pain of the the
Speaker 1: nation of like going through his body, because that basically
Speaker 1: like stops their heart and it's not pleasant. So this
Speaker 1: place wasn't even using that. So these dogs were being
Speaker 1: put down in a in an even more cruel way,
Speaker 1: being walked to the back and then just shot up
Speaker 1: with something that like sees their heart and.
Speaker 2: It's like become now just like a like a factory work,
Speaker 2: you know, just get them out, get them out, get
Speaker 2: them out. We don't have around, we don't have room,
Speaker 2: we don't have a room. It's like, I don't even know.
Speaker 2: I feel so horrible and bad for the shelter workers
Speaker 2: in a way, because I don't even know how you
Speaker 2: what happens to your heart in a situation like that,
Speaker 2: Like how much do you have to just desensitize yourself
Speaker 2: just to get through your job and do this horrible thing?
Speaker 2: But here in Utah we had until last year, we
Speaker 2: had gas chambers and I was like, I'm sorry, what
Speaker 2: it's twenty twenty three, what are you doing? You know what?
Speaker 2: And it was like, you know, it was kind of
Speaker 2: a fight because of the old cowboy mentality around here,
Speaker 2: and you know, well we got them to ban them.
Speaker 2: So that was a huge win. I'm incredibly grateful for,
Speaker 2: you know, my Grebner and the people who really stepped
Speaker 2: up to help me fight that.
Speaker 1: That is a huge win.
Speaker 2: It was crazy. We were one of three states that
Speaker 2: still did this, and I was like, how can you
Speaker 2: do this in this place, this sacred place, Like this
Speaker 2: place is so extraordinary and beautiful and you feel so
Speaker 2: connected to nature here. How can you do this? Like
Speaker 2: what a horrible mark you're leaving on this great place.
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you a question about about your cancer.
Speaker 2: How long have you had cancer, Shannon?
Speaker 1: I got cancer in twenty fifteen. Okay, it went to
Speaker 1: remission I think right at the end of twenty seventeen
Speaker 1: or at the beginning of twenty eighteen, and then it
Speaker 1: came back in twenty nineteen. Is stage four, yeah, breast cancer,
Speaker 1: breast cancer, but then it spread to my bones, and
Speaker 1: from there it's to my brain. Like last year, I
Speaker 1: had brain surgery, so they had to you know open
Speaker 1: up and remove one of the larger tumors so that
Speaker 1: they could you know, test its pathology and all of that,
Speaker 1: and then I had brain radiation. Thank god, it was
Speaker 1: like vocal radiation. But you know, it's something that it
Speaker 1: I did it on the podcast. I talked about it.
Speaker 1: That just was out because it's it's you know, there's
Speaker 1: so many protocols. Eventually it's it's stage four cancer, Like
Speaker 1: eventually those protocols are going to start working and you
Speaker 1: just hope that you are on one long enough for
Speaker 1: them to actually come up with another protocol and another
Speaker 1: protocol or so it's it's it's really hard. I uh,
Speaker 1: this is probably the hardest time for me that I've
Speaker 1: ever had with the cancer. I've always kind of felt
Speaker 1: very positive and like I can deal with that, and
Speaker 1: this is definitely like I'm overly emotional, Like I want
Speaker 1: to cry every single second at good or bad. Like
Speaker 1: just introducing you, I was like about to start crying,
Speaker 1: like it just but what's really beautiful about it is
Speaker 1: I think you become so incredibly sensitive that your eyes
Speaker 1: are like wide open everything around you, to people to
Speaker 1: how they react, to what you can possibly do that's
Speaker 1: better for the world, like what your purpose here is? Yeah,
Speaker 1: because I think I struggled with that kind of my
Speaker 1: entire life, like being a child actor and then growing
Speaker 1: up acting, and I just never felt like I was accepted.
Speaker 1: I always, you know, looked at the Friends crew and
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, I want to hang out
Speaker 1: with jan Anison and Courtney Cox and you know, why
Speaker 1: doesn't anybody accept me? And why am I always called
Speaker 1: the bad girl? And then eventually it's like when you
Speaker 1: turn forty, when you stopped caring about what people are
Speaker 1: saying about you. That's for me. Cancer was that moment
Speaker 1: where I was like, oh, hell no, I don't need
Speaker 1: to hang out with any of these people. I need
Speaker 1: to make sure I'm happy and living the best life
Speaker 1: that I can while I'm still alive.
Speaker 2: So in ninety six, I think my mother was diagnosed
Speaker 2: with stage four breast cancer, and like I said, almost
Speaker 2: eighty one now, and I mean, your experience is clearly different,
Speaker 2: and I think everybody's is when it comes to this
Speaker 2: sort of you know, to cancer, to health, our finger,
Speaker 2: I think our bodies and our reactions to things are
Speaker 2: as individual as our fingerprints. I don't think there's any
Speaker 2: sort of one shoe fits all thing that just you know,
Speaker 2: but I would you're probably really sick of talking about it,
Speaker 2: but if you do ever want to talk to somebody
Speaker 2: who's gone through it and has some I think very interesting.
Speaker 2: You know how she got through it. She's really she's
Speaker 2: pretty incredible. I'm very proud of my mother. I find
Speaker 2: her incredibly well. She's she's brave, and she's strong, she's
Speaker 2: incredibly compassionate. She's unbelievably annoying sometimes. But I really think
Speaker 2: that if you ever wanted to talk to somebody that
Speaker 2: she would. I would love you to talk to her,
Speaker 2: because there were some things she did that were unique
Speaker 2: at the time, and one of those was to work.
Speaker 2: She worked with a nature path and but she chose
Speaker 2: she was in a cancer group and all the other
Speaker 2: women had chosen like wumpectomies and radiation, and she chose
Speaker 2: to just kind of go full throttle and do the
Speaker 2: mes ectomy, do the nine months of chemotherapy. And she
Speaker 2: will say that it wasn't the best year of her life,
Speaker 2: but it wasn't the worst. And she had some tools,
Speaker 2: like she our family is definitely I'm not really well.
Speaker 2: I was raised Mormon, and at the time we were
Speaker 2: practicing Mormons, but I'm not really and she isn't really either,
Speaker 2: like we're more. I mean, I pray and I lean
Speaker 2: into the idea that this is a benevolent universe, that
Speaker 2: there's an energy that feels kind. I don't think it's
Speaker 2: an indifferent universe. And I'm not agnostic or an atheist,
Speaker 2: but I don't know exactly how it all looks. I
Speaker 2: don't need to. I like the mystery, but I do
Speaker 2: think that she felt she was given some answers through
Speaker 2: prayer or meditation or whatever she did at that time
Speaker 2: that I thought were really interesting. It was like, stay
Speaker 2: away from toxic people, even if they're your family. Had
Speaker 2: a few and she I think the other one was
Speaker 2: rest when you need it. Don't try to push through it,
Speaker 2: don't try to get back on your feet and whatever.
Speaker 2: Just rest. And then I can't remember what the third
Speaker 2: ones I think it might have been, like, was it
Speaker 2: till like write down you know what what you were
Speaker 2: really feeling, like the real shit, not the like I'll
Speaker 2: be okay, but.
Speaker 1: We do tend to do that we tend to, as
Speaker 1: your mom would probably agree with me on, we tend
Speaker 1: to look at everybody and go, no, we're fine, we're fine,
Speaker 1: We're fine. It's I don't even think it's about reassuring ourselves.
Speaker 1: It's about reassuring everyone around us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they're uncomfortable and makes you uncomfortable, right, yeah.
Speaker 1: But I would assume that that would be incredibly healthy
Speaker 1: and getting some of that toxic energy out of where
Speaker 1: you are super scared, but you're not able to us
Speaker 1: it right to the people that love you and that
Speaker 1: are in your life all the time because you're trying
Speaker 1: to protect them. But to just get it out on paper,
Speaker 1: it's like it gets it out in the universe and gone, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think that you know, that goes for
Speaker 2: almost anything, but I think it's especially important when you're
Speaker 2: sort of warring with your body, you know, and warring
Speaker 2: with you. I think being able to just be like
Speaker 2: deeply honest about how that really makes you feel, without
Speaker 2: worrying about anybody else's feelings or anybody else's reaction or
Speaker 2: anybody else's need to make it right and make it
Speaker 2: right and make right and find a solution for you
Speaker 2: because that's you know, a very human reaction too, when
Speaker 2: you see somebody love and you know that is suffering,
Speaker 2: but like it is a lot of energy to then
Speaker 2: take on as the person who's dealing with it. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not Life's not for pussies.
Speaker 1: That's a really good saying. I like that one a lot,
Speaker 1: and I'll probably take you up on horseback riding's coming
Speaker 1: and getting that Utah energy.
Speaker 2: I would love to host you. I just think we
Speaker 2: would have such a good time together. And I just think,
Speaker 2: you know, it's so interesting because I get asked on
Speaker 2: occasion to do a podcast here there, but I typically,
Speaker 2: you know, like I said, I'm kind of here in Utah,
Speaker 2: like not even in the world anymore of Hollywood as much,
Speaker 2: But this one, I was like, yes, yes, I'll do that.
Speaker 2: I like, I'd really like to talk to Shannon already.
Speaker 2: That's very exciting.
Speaker 1: So that's a huge honor. I mean, I gotta tell you,
Speaker 1: I've got like pages and pages and pages of like
Speaker 1: from my producer. She does. She's so good, she does
Speaker 1: so much hard work, and I'm like, what I love
Speaker 1: when I get someone like you on that. You know,
Speaker 1: I do have a lot of admiration for is when
Speaker 1: you just click and you have an honest conversation and
Speaker 1: it goes where it goes, and nothing's prepared and it
Speaker 1: just is what it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Sorry, Actually I tend to I'm not very good
Speaker 2: at staying on track.
Speaker 1: Are you kidding? I'm not good at it either. It
Speaker 1: was unbelievable, like, honestly my favorite person I've interviewed so far,
Speaker 1: And I thank you, like, I'm not going to take
Speaker 1: up the rest of your day because I think we've
Speaker 1: covered a lot. Is there anything that you want to cover?
Speaker 2: No, I'm just very grateful to've been asked to be
Speaker 2: here today. I am like very I don't get a
Speaker 2: lot of these kinds of conversations. I have a fifteen
Speaker 2: year old, a twelve year old, and a seven year old.
Speaker 2: You know, they don't want to talk about this sort
Speaker 2: of stuff. And then there's my mom, and we talked
Speaker 2: twice a day every day, so it's like you kind
Speaker 2: of run out of interesting topics. So I'm just grateful
Speaker 2: to have gotten to have this really lovely interesting conversation
Speaker 2: with such a lovely interesting woman.
Speaker 1: Thank you. You're going to make me cry, seriously, You'll
Speaker 1: make me cry again an honor, and I'll see you
Speaker 1: in Utah, and please tell your mom. She'll get my number.
Speaker 1: She can give me all. I would love to talk
Speaker 1: to her because I think somebody who's been there, who's
Speaker 1: done it, I don't think you're ever over it. Whether
Speaker 1: you're cured not cured, you're still in the midst of it.
Speaker 1: It's always nice to connect with someone who you know
Speaker 1: has gone through it, is going through it, and that
Speaker 1: maybe is doing something different that could you know you
Speaker 1: would just open you up to a totally different experience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, perspective is tough, and so it's if
Speaker 2: you can maybe you know, maybe there will be something
Speaker 2: in the conversation that inspires or shifts or or even
Speaker 2: just comforts you know, or maybe not, but it's worth
Speaker 2: a shot.
Speaker 1: And if you need any help with dog stuff over
Speaker 1: there in Utah, let me know. I love you, thank you,
Speaker 1: I will help. It's like my passion. It's what I
Speaker 1: care a lot about, along with educating people in cancer.
Speaker 1: So whatever you need for me, I'm here for you,
Speaker 1: and vice versa.
Speaker 2: In Utah. All right, thank you,