Speaker 1: Hello, Hey, do you have a copy of TV Guide?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: No, why I can't find my copy? And I was
Speaker 1: wondering what was on TV? Don't don't you remember?
Speaker 3: Don't you remember? Don't you don't?
Speaker 4: Wait?
Speaker 1: Wait, don't you remember calling people up on the phone.
Speaker 4: I do remember that, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Just just to see what was on. I remember calling
Speaker 1: on my aunt Tilly because I was too I was
Speaker 1: too lazy to get up off the couch to look
Speaker 1: for the TV Guide, so I just called her up.
Speaker 1: Who woman could hardly walk and she had to search
Speaker 1: around for a TV guide to go. I'm GIMILTT Media.
Speaker 1: I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight today's episode, Christina.
Speaker 1: This is the best of all possible worlds. My father
Speaker 1: was fond of saying. The words were spoken contentedly, often
Speaker 1: while reclining in a barca lounger belt buckle undone after
Speaker 1: a large meal of baked beans and lamb chops. But
Speaker 1: what did my father know of other worlds? He'd held
Speaker 1: down the same job and was married to the same
Speaker 1: woman for decades plus. He hardly left the house. But
Speaker 1: what he did know was that this world had one
Speaker 1: thing over all of those other worlds. It existed for
Speaker 1: my father. That was enough to make it best. I,
Speaker 1: on the other hand, am not one over so easily.
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker 1: Existence is a nice quality, a fine quality, but going
Speaker 1: so far as to call a world that contains both
Speaker 1: soul patches and puddles the best possible anything seems a
Speaker 1: little extreme, and so imagining other worlds the same, only
Speaker 1: better is just too irresistible. In spite of the pain
Speaker 1: such thinking inevitably invites. Why don't we start from the beginning. Okay,
Speaker 1: this is Christina, and like me, she knows this world
Speaker 1: can use a few tweaks. Overall, she says her life
Speaker 1: hasn't been a bad one, It's just not the one
Speaker 1: she was meant to live. She's worked as a waitress,
Speaker 1: a receptionist, as a home care worker, the kinds of
Speaker 1: jobs you do, but not necessarily the kind you dream about. Lately,
Speaker 1: she's been helping run her husband's company.
Speaker 4: It's a disc golfing backpack company.
Speaker 1: Say sorry, say that again. It's a what disc golf
Speaker 1: backpack is? What is disc golf?
Speaker 4: It's like ball golf, but instead of balls and clubs,
Speaker 4: you have frisbees.
Speaker 1: Oh, when you say ball golf, you're talking about golf.
Speaker 4: Golf like a regular golf.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I've never heard it referred to distinguished as
Speaker 1: ball golf, but I.
Speaker 4: Well, only disc golfers call it ball golf.
Speaker 1: So, but how do you how do you get a
Speaker 1: frisbee in a golf hole?
Speaker 4: No, it's actually not a hole, it's a basket.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Before she started pining after better worlds,
Speaker 1: Christina was focused on just one, the world of small
Speaker 1: town western Canada.
Speaker 4: I lived with my mom. She was a single mom.
Speaker 4: My dad left when I was around one, and my
Speaker 4: mom was diagnosed with schizophrenia.
Speaker 1: Christina was just a kid, so a lot of it's
Speaker 1: now fuzzy, but she remembers bits of things, her mom
Speaker 1: going off her meds and beginning to hear voices, her
Speaker 1: mom waking her in the middle of the night and
Speaker 1: saying they had to leave right away. She remembers running
Speaker 1: with her mom down dark streets.
Speaker 4: She started becoming violent and she would just you know,
Speaker 4: hit me with the phone handle, or this one time
Speaker 4: she came after me with a high heeled shoe. There's
Speaker 4: no food in the house. She wouldn't do laundry, like
Speaker 4: the dirty clothes would pile up in the living room, like,
Speaker 4: I remember this massive mound of dirty clothes, and I
Speaker 4: remember this kid made fun of me for having dirty pants,
Speaker 4: and so I started stealing clothes just so I could
Speaker 4: have clean clothes to go to school.
Speaker 1: When you were a kid trying to survive on your own,
Speaker 1: the unthinkable can start to seem normal. To escape her house,
Speaker 1: Christina took a job caring for two boys not much
Speaker 1: younger than herself. She became a twelve year old live
Speaker 1: in nanny.
Speaker 4: So I ended up moving in with this family and
Speaker 4: looking after the boys. They paid me a little bit,
Speaker 4: and I quit school to be a nanny.
Speaker 1: When she stopped showing up at school, social services removed
Speaker 1: Christina from the nannying house, but instead of bringing her
Speaker 1: back to her mom, they took her to a fi
Speaker 1: her home. She was sent to live with an older
Speaker 1: couple and their grandson. They lived on the fancier side
Speaker 1: of town in a house decorated with candleholders and decorative pistols.
Speaker 1: The foster mother was a woman named Isabelle. Her grandson, David,
Speaker 1: was the golden boy who could do no wrong. From
Speaker 1: day one, Christina struggled for Isabelle's approval.
Speaker 4: My foster mother and I kind of butted heads a
Speaker 4: little bit or a lot.
Speaker 1: Although Isabelle was only an inch taller, Christina was scared
Speaker 1: of her. Her foster mother communicated through rules and punishments.
Speaker 4: She was very strict. I was five minutes late for curfew.
Speaker 4: I would be grounded for a month. It felt like
Speaker 4: I was always grounded and afraid all the time, and
Speaker 4: kind of walking on eggshells, and yeah, just feeling always
Speaker 4: really intimidated and scared. I was always scared.
Speaker 1: And when she got scared, Christina would go silent. As
Speaker 1: a result, she never once stood up to Isabelle. It
Speaker 1: was while living in Isabelle's world that another better world
Speaker 1: presented itself to Christina, a world with rules that were
Speaker 1: easy to understand, a world where someone was always keeping
Speaker 1: score and keeping things fair. This was the eighty four
Speaker 1: x fifty foot world of a basketball court.
Speaker 4: I can't explain how much I was obsessed with basketball.
Speaker 4: I would practice at like six in the morning at
Speaker 4: the school. I would practice on weekends. I'd watch the
Speaker 4: NBA games with Clyde the Glide and Charles Barkley, and
Speaker 4: then my name was in the paper a few times.
Speaker 4: I think I have some paper clippings of like high scoring.
Speaker 4: I loved, loved, loved basketball.
Speaker 1: On the basketball court and it was never scared. It
Speaker 1: was a place where, for the first time in her life,
Speaker 1: she felt in control and confident. Her foster brother, David,
Speaker 1: a popular jock, spent hours helping her get better. She
Speaker 1: joined a team and quickly became a high scorer. Eventually
Speaker 1: she was made team captain.
Speaker 4: They would always put me inside, like I would always
Speaker 4: have to guard the post.
Speaker 1: When Christina talks about basketball, she lights up, and I
Speaker 1: want to encourage her to keep talking by asking questions.
Speaker 1: But my only real knowledge of basketball comes from watching
Speaker 1: the Harlem Globetrotters. I was in my thirties before I
Speaker 1: learned it was illegal to bring stilts onto the court,
Speaker 1: so my questions are limited.
Speaker 4: We tall no only five to six. But I guess
Speaker 4: I kind of had this unrealistic view of myself where
Speaker 4: I thought I was taller than I was because off court,
Speaker 4: I was like kind of meek, and I'd just follow
Speaker 4: the crowd and I wouldn't create any waves. I didn't
Speaker 4: really have an opinion, but on the court, I was
Speaker 4: a force to be reckoned with. It was like the
Speaker 4: only time where I felt powerful.
Speaker 1: It was around this time that a plan began to
Speaker 1: take shape. If she kept practicing and kept winning, she'd
Speaker 1: get a basketball scholarship. Christina knew that was her only
Speaker 1: hope of getting into college.
Speaker 4: I wanted to get out of that circle of welfare
Speaker 4: and illness and living from paycheck to paycheck and just
Speaker 4: feeling just being poor.
Speaker 1: It sucked, which brings us to the moment that thirty
Speaker 1: years later, Christina still can't stop thinking about. She'd just
Speaker 1: come home from school when Isabelle called her into the kitchen,
Speaker 1: sat her down at the table, and presented her with
Speaker 1: an ultimatum.
Speaker 4: She said, you have to get your grades up. You
Speaker 4: have to work harder at school, and so in order
Speaker 4: for me to be able to play basketball following year,
Speaker 4: which would have been eleventh grade, I had to have
Speaker 4: an average of a bee in every class. But I
Speaker 4: was really bad at math and chemistry, and I didn't
Speaker 4: make it. I wasn't allowed to play basketball.
Speaker 1: What she remembers most about that time was watching a
Speaker 1: lot of TV and overeating and the chores. After forcing
Speaker 1: Christina to quit the basketball team, Isabelle handed her chores
Speaker 1: that felt like ironic punishments from the Judy Bloom version
Speaker 1: of Dante's Inferno. She had to bake cookies for the family,
Speaker 1: but because of her weight gain, she wasn't allowed to
Speaker 1: eat any, and when she dusted the house, Isabelle instructed
Speaker 1: her to pick up David's basketball trophies, dust each one,
Speaker 1: and dust the shelf underneath. All the while, Christina felt
Speaker 1: her loss acutely of basketball and the better world had promised.
Speaker 4: She took something from me that I that I've not
Speaker 4: been able to get back.
Speaker 1: What is that thing?
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I don't even know. I don't. I don't.
Speaker 4: When I say that out loud, it sounds ridiculous, but
Speaker 4: it feels like that passion for something it dashed this
Speaker 4: huge dream that I had.
Speaker 1: For my life. Christina still wonders why why did Isabelle
Speaker 1: take away basketball, the only thing that really mattered to her,
Speaker 1: that would have given her a better life, But all
Speaker 1: these years she's been too afraid to ask.
Speaker 4: She's going to be ninety five in July. The thought
Speaker 4: of talking to her about it petrifies me a little bit,
Speaker 4: like there's still a part of me that is scared
Speaker 4: of her, which is ridiculous. And what do you want,
Speaker 4: I think, yeah, I think I want to know, like
Speaker 4: why she made my life so difficult, if it was
Speaker 4: just to break me down, if she had some kind
Speaker 4: of thing against.
Speaker 1: Me, And what do you want to hear her say?
Speaker 4: I guess I want to just hear her say that
Speaker 4: she just genuinely wanted me to have better grades. But
Speaker 4: I know that that's just such bs. For whatever reason,
Speaker 4: I've let go of a lot of things that have happened,
Speaker 4: but for whatever reason, this one thing, the basketball thing,
Speaker 4: not letting me play basketball. I'm having such a hard
Speaker 4: time letting go of that and forgiving her. I want
Speaker 4: to let it go.
Speaker 1: So you want to go talk to her?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: You, and you want me to come? Yes, I get
Speaker 1: really mealy mouthed when I'm in the same room as
Speaker 1: like strong willed, scary older women. I'll tell you that
Speaker 1: right now, I'm not going to be much help.
Speaker 4: So we're doing it.
Speaker 1: It sounds like we're doing it all right. We're gonna
Speaker 1: go talk to that scary lady after the break. How
Speaker 1: much mincing can a Meilie mouth mince? When a Melie
Speaker 1: mouth meets a menacing miss who writes this stuff? I
Speaker 1: guess I do once I gave Christina my word that
Speaker 1: i'd help, I approached CEO and Gimblet founder Alex Bloomberg
Speaker 1: to ask if he could fly me to the British
Speaker 1: Columbian interior to confront a ninety five year old woman
Speaker 1: about something she may or may not have said some
Speaker 1: thirty years ago, to which Alex asked, why are you
Speaker 1: always standing just outside the door whenever I get out
Speaker 1: of the bathroom? And I said it was a coincidence,
Speaker 1: although I might have pronounced it Quinki dink to be playful.
Speaker 1: And he asked how long this trip would take me
Speaker 1: out of the office, and I said a week, and
Speaker 1: he said to take longer if I needed it. So
Speaker 1: I was off to Canada.
Speaker 2: Tail de nos ai, are you to?
Speaker 1: I meet Christina and her husband Levi at the Colonna
Speaker 1: Airport in British Columbia. They'd just flown in from Portland,
Speaker 1: and the look of trust on their faces is daunting.
Speaker 1: When meeting new people, especially people I'm about to help.
Speaker 1: I'm more comfortable with looks of skepticism or anticipatory disappointment.
Speaker 1: Trust was disconcerting, Yes I have. It was an hour
Speaker 1: and a half drive to Isabelle's. So we made our
Speaker 1: way to the airport rental desk to get a car
Speaker 1: Goldstein G.
Speaker 4: O L D.
Speaker 3: And I just asked what that is there?
Speaker 1: Oh, it's just a we're doing a radio story.
Speaker 3: So I've just do you mind turning that off and
Speaker 3: put away?
Speaker 1: Yeah? If I couldn't even stand up to the car
Speaker 1: rental clerk, what hope did I have of helping Christina
Speaker 1: stand up to Isabelle.
Speaker 5: It's hot in here, I want to.
Speaker 1: Say, it's been well over two years since Christina's seen Isabelle.
Speaker 1: She's feeling anxious, so I try to keep the mood positive.
Speaker 1: I bet the thrift stores are really good around here.
Speaker 1: I point out foreign license plates, and because we're in
Speaker 1: a foreign country, there are many pretty Have you guys
Speaker 1: been watching this show called Little Big Lies or big
Speaker 1: little Lies or little big Lies? Well set, I think so.
Speaker 1: Isabelle lives on the ground floor of a squat apartment
Speaker 1: block mostly inhabited by seniors. We wait. When no one answers,
Speaker 1: we ring the bell. The door opens. I heard you
Speaker 1: the first time, Isabelle says. Christina smiles in spite of herself.
Speaker 1: She can't help but get a kick out of Isabelle.
Speaker 1: Isabelle peers up at us from behind her walker, Christina's husband,
Speaker 1: Levi makes introductions, isabel Hi, how are you doing?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 4: That?
Speaker 1: Oh? Is me reacting to Isabelle's handshake, a surprisingly powerful
Speaker 1: thing that yanks me through the doorframe. Although a diminutive
Speaker 1: woman with white, puffy hair and wirerim glasses, Isabelle's just
Speaker 1: established herself as the alpha. Nice to meet you, Nice.
Speaker 3: To meet you.
Speaker 1: Okay, you seem to be doing great.
Speaker 3: I'm doing not bad for my age, I guess.
Speaker 1: Isabelle's apartment is tidy and dim, decorated with candles that
Speaker 1: haven't been lit in years. We slowly follow her down
Speaker 1: a narrow hallway to her living room, where she seats
Speaker 1: herself in a faded blue mechanized armchair. On the drive over,
Speaker 1: Christina mentioned that Isabelle is legally blind, but I misremember
Speaker 1: this as Isabelle being legally deaf, so I compliment her
Speaker 1: on how well she's following along. Well, I'm not talking
Speaker 1: very loud, and you you've been able to hear everything.
Speaker 3: So I did say there's nothing wrong with my ears right.
Speaker 1: And you did.
Speaker 4: Not.
Speaker 1: To recover from this faux pas, I offer Isabelle a
Speaker 1: chance to feel my face run her hands through my beard,
Speaker 1: which is something I think I saw done in the mirror.
Speaker 1: If ever, you want to feel my stubble, or I.
Speaker 3: Don't go running around feeling beards.
Speaker 1: I decide that now's as good a time as any
Speaker 1: to offer around the airport treats I bought during my layover.
Speaker 1: I brought some refreshments. Since I don't want to put
Speaker 1: Isabelle out by asking for a party tray, I scooted
Speaker 1: my travel socks and underwear to the side of my
Speaker 1: backpack and proffer them straight from the bag, some chocolate
Speaker 1: covered nuts and such.
Speaker 3: Not right now, thank you?
Speaker 1: No, okay, I'll leave them in the bag. If I've
Speaker 1: learned anything from my work in the business of forcing
Speaker 1: people to ask terrifying questions, it was that it's always
Speaker 1: best to just get it over with. Ask the question
Speaker 1: why did you ruin my life? Get the answer, and
Speaker 1: head back to the hotel bar to eat the juiciest,
Speaker 1: fattiest tea bone steak that Gimlet Media's fourteen dollars per
Speaker 1: dim allows. But staging is everything I need to be
Speaker 1: off hand subtle. Do you Christina, do you have anything
Speaker 1: that you you want to ask about, or Christina looks
Speaker 1: down at her hands and tightens her lips. Of course
Speaker 1: I understand her hesitation. Isabelle is even more intimidating in
Speaker 1: person than Christina made her out, and nothing about being
Speaker 1: here can possibly feel much like coming home. The walls
Speaker 1: and shelves are loaded with photos of Isabelle's children, grandchildren,
Speaker 1: and great grandchildren, but there isn't a single photo anywhere
Speaker 1: of her only foster child, Christina. To break the silence,
Speaker 1: I ask Isabelle why she originally took Christina into her
Speaker 1: home in the first place.
Speaker 3: And one of my children left a child for me
Speaker 3: to raise my grandson. Yeah, so I thought life was
Speaker 3: just my husband and I. We were both older. It
Speaker 3: would be kind of very dull for him. So I
Speaker 3: thought that having someone else around the house would make
Speaker 3: make it a little more homey for him. But I
Speaker 3: hadn't chosen Christina. Christina was brought to me and it
Speaker 3: was just she was just there. This wild looking thing
Speaker 3: seemed a little bit of training to live in a home,
Speaker 3: so obviously she hadn't been brought up with anything. I
Speaker 3: just thought any child living under my roof had to
Speaker 3: be taught.
Speaker 1: Something meaning like what kind of things like you mean
Speaker 1: normal like rules and.
Speaker 3: Well rules, yeah, the rules. I don't think that our
Speaker 3: rules were terribly.
Speaker 4: Strict, really, I mean I felt like they were strict.
Speaker 3: Well maybe you thought so, that most kids do, but
Speaker 3: there were the the same rule as my kid's head.
Speaker 1: Christina hesitates. You can see it's hard for her to
Speaker 1: talk back to Isabelle even now.
Speaker 4: But then she says, but David didn't have rules, No,
Speaker 4: he didn't need any.
Speaker 3: He is the most perfect person I've ever.
Speaker 1: Raised, Christina. Another person she happened to have raised, is
Speaker 1: seated a couple feet away from her. Christina stares ahead blankly,
Speaker 1: not saying anything. So I press Isabelle, Well, you must
Speaker 1: have done something wrong. I mean it's only.
Speaker 3: Very little. You'd be surprised how perfect he was.
Speaker 1: Was that hard though, being like side by side with
Speaker 1: someone who.
Speaker 3: Is just so No, I think it was good for.
Speaker 1: Her, Christina, Is that is that how you feel?
Speaker 3: It was hard?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 5: It was really hard.
Speaker 1: Something else that's been hard is finding the courage to
Speaker 1: ask the question that brought her here. Christina gives it
Speaker 1: a shot, but after some throat clearing again, she goes silent,
Speaker 1: go ahead and ask.
Speaker 4: I think the one thing that I have kind of
Speaker 4: always wondered is do you remember I think it was
Speaker 4: in tenth grade and I had been playing basketball and
Speaker 4: you told me that I had to get my grades
Speaker 4: up where I couldn't play basketball anymore.
Speaker 5: Do you remember that?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 4: Okay, so I didn't get my grades up and I
Speaker 4: had to quit the team.
Speaker 3: I don't remember that, Agittall, I don't know. I still.
Speaker 4: Was. It was devastating for me.
Speaker 3: Why did you get your grade out there?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I asked Christina if she could explain to Isabelle why
Speaker 1: losing basketball hurt so much.
Speaker 5: Not without crying.
Speaker 3: I felt like.
Speaker 4: It was like the one thing that I.
Speaker 3: Was really good at.
Speaker 1: Are you surprised to hear Christina talk about how much
Speaker 1: she loved basketball?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 1: Was that something that you knew back then?
Speaker 3: I didn't know what.
Speaker 1: No, did Christina? Did you ever express it?
Speaker 3: I don't think she did. I don't think so. No,
Speaker 3: I don't think you did.
Speaker 4: I think the reason why, like it still affects me now,
Speaker 4: it is because I didn't fight.
Speaker 1: For it, and how could she have. She never felt
Speaker 1: like she had the right to stop her feet to
Speaker 1: slam the bedroom door in so many words, to act
Speaker 1: like someone's kid. I thought that maybe if I could
Speaker 1: get Isabelle to put herself in Christina's shoes, it might
Speaker 1: help her understand. Was there anything that you can think
Speaker 1: of that's comparable from your own life, Isabelle, Like something
Speaker 1: that you really felt very passionate about, like the thing
Speaker 1: that you really that was your great love.
Speaker 3: Not really. I always wanted to go to school more
Speaker 3: than I did. I really wanted a good education, which
Speaker 3: of the country you weren't able to get.
Speaker 1: Her father was a rancher, Isabelle says, and her mom
Speaker 1: died when she was little, so her dad raised the
Speaker 1: kids by himself, and Isabelle, being the eldest, had a
Speaker 1: lot of responsibility.
Speaker 3: I used to miss school every year when I go
Speaker 3: to be a certain age and had to herd cattle.
Speaker 3: So I'd missed about two months or a month of
Speaker 3: school every year when I was old enough to do this.
Speaker 3: But I was first in my class from the day
Speaker 3: I started till the day I finished. I was never
Speaker 3: anything but first in my class.
Speaker 1: Was that typical that a lot of kids in the
Speaker 1: class have to miss?
Speaker 3: No, just me and well we were brought up by
Speaker 3: our dad. Men bring up children differently than women.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what ways? How do you mean?
Speaker 3: I mean my dad didn't teach me to ride horseback.
Speaker 3: He just threw me on a horse and told me
Speaker 3: to go. You know a woman wouldn't do that, And
Speaker 3: don't think not likely. My father was quite fond of me.
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, how far did you go in school?
Speaker 3: Just? Grade nine? I took grade nine by correspondence, so.
Speaker 1: You didn't You never ended up getting there the high
Speaker 1: school degree.
Speaker 3: No. Yeah, school was an important thing to me because
Speaker 3: I felt that's how you'd make your living.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I.
Speaker 3: Remember when I was through school, my stepmother looking in
Speaker 3: the paper and she found a dishwashing job for me.
Speaker 3: She thought that I always capable of was washing dishes
Speaker 3: in some restaurant. I felt very insulted. It always surprised
Speaker 3: me when kids didn't want to get all the education
Speaker 3: they possibly could.
Speaker 1: Isabelle motions towards Christina.
Speaker 3: There's only so far you can go on basketball. I
Speaker 3: always felt your education was more important. But as a kid,
Speaker 3: sometimes you know, you don't see that. I knew. I
Speaker 3: tried to teach her to be self sufficient because I
Speaker 3: knew that she'd only have herself to depend upon.
Speaker 1: Isabelle wanted to give Christina something she never got herself,
Speaker 1: a good education. But by depriving Christina basketball, Isabelle took
Speaker 1: away just that. At the time, though she didn't know it.
Speaker 1: What Isabelle did know was that when Christina showed up
Speaker 1: at her door thirty years ago, she was already in
Speaker 1: her sixties. Isabelle was old, and if she were to die,
Speaker 1: Christina would be left all alone. She'd only become a
Speaker 1: foster child because no one in her extended family had
Speaker 1: stepped up to take her in. She had no one else.
Speaker 1: What did you know about Christina's childhood before she met you?
Speaker 3: Not much of anything that I can remember. Like her
Speaker 3: mother was ment lel. I guess she knows that. And
Speaker 3: I lost my mother when I was five, and my
Speaker 3: father eventually had a nervous breakdown, so I knew what
Speaker 3: it was like to live with them.
Speaker 1: Challenged Bertha, Oh, what was it like?
Speaker 3: Terrible? It was horrible. You didn't know if someone was
Speaker 3: going to kill you today or tomorrow, or what the
Speaker 3: heck was going to happen.
Speaker 1: That's not an exaggeration. You're really were.
Speaker 3: It's not an exaggeration. I remember taking my little brother
Speaker 3: and sister outside and trying to hide them. He was
Speaker 3: left with five little children. Yeah, and he was terrified
Speaker 3: that they were going to take the kids away from him.
Speaker 3: And I used to sit by his bed and hold
Speaker 3: his hand, and one day he said to me, Isabelle,
Speaker 3: why do you keep holding my hand? And in my
Speaker 3: own way, I was trying to let him know that
Speaker 3: we all loved him.
Speaker 1: Isabelle eventually placed her father in a mental hospital.
Speaker 3: I admitted him.
Speaker 1: Oh, and you were how old.
Speaker 3: At that time? I was appo fourteen.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's a big burden.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was. And I thought, here, I'm fourteen, What
Speaker 3: the hell am I doing here?
Speaker 1: All the while, as Isabelle talks, Christina, seated in an
Speaker 1: armchair beside her, listens quietly, her hands gripping the armrest.
Speaker 1: Without looking at Isabelle, she makes her presence known.
Speaker 4: I have many memories of visiting my mom in the
Speaker 4: mental hospital when I was young, like seven, eight nine,
Speaker 4: kind of age ten.
Speaker 1: It's weird.
Speaker 4: It's a really weird experience to go knowing that the
Speaker 4: other people are mentally unstable and.
Speaker 3: You can't predict what they're going to do.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and my mom was, you know, kind of a
Speaker 4: zombie because of all the medication, and obviously it was
Speaker 4: like sad and upset that she had to be there
Speaker 4: and wasn't with me.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: It was an awful place.
Speaker 4: It makes you grow up way too fast.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. I mean I was never a kid
Speaker 3: until I got married and had my own kids, and
Speaker 3: then I had a lot of fund raising my own children. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think that's why I was a nanny, because I
Speaker 4: could be around kids and have a childhood with all
Speaker 4: these other children.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I what I did. I grew up
Speaker 3: with my own children. That's what was my childhood. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, I'd play with my children just like I
Speaker 3: was one of them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I did the same thing.
Speaker 3: One day, one of the neighbors looked at me, one
Speaker 3: of the little girls, and she's just how old are you?
Speaker 1: These were stories that neither Christina nor Isabelle had ever
Speaker 1: told each other. Watching them connect like this, it feels
Speaker 1: like a good time to bring the subject back to basketball.
Speaker 1: How much over the past thirty years, Christina's fretted over
Speaker 1: Isabel's decision. Knowing this now, I ask Isabelle, would you
Speaker 1: have done things differently.
Speaker 3: Oh, I wished I had a known more about it
Speaker 3: at the time, But I mean, I still have no
Speaker 3: regrets about it.
Speaker 1: It's as though Isabelle just doesn't understand what the word
Speaker 1: regret means. So I offer a working definition. If we
Speaker 1: were to set off in a time machine where we
Speaker 1: could return to that time, and Christina were to.
Speaker 3: Say, I know what you're saying, but frankly, I don't
Speaker 3: know what i'd do. You know, I really don't. It
Speaker 3: would depend on what kind of a mood I'm in.
Speaker 1: If you were in the mood that you're in right now,
Speaker 1: I really have no idea.
Speaker 3: I could give you a lot of BS and tell
Speaker 3: you how good it would have been, but it wouldn't
Speaker 3: be in the truth.
Speaker 1: I think like a lot of people would just give
Speaker 1: Christina the BS.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't do that. I usually tell it truth.
Speaker 1: Like most I can lie upwards of ten thousand times
Speaker 1: a day. It helps ease the friction of getting through life.
Speaker 1: People ask how I am, and I say fine, does
Speaker 1: this jumpsuit make my ass look fat? And I say no?
Speaker 1: And so on, lying all the day long until bedtime,
Speaker 1: at which point I'm not sure the lying stops. I
Speaker 1: can probably lie in my dreams. In other words, I
Speaker 1: hold lying to be the greatest gift God gave to man.
Speaker 1: But even with all of our lies and best intentions,
Speaker 1: we still can't escape hurting one another. I don't think
Speaker 1: Isabelle is a cruel woman, but I do think she
Speaker 1: knows that hurting people and being hurt is the price
Speaker 1: one pays for being human.
Speaker 3: There is nothing out of the ordinary in our lives,
Speaker 3: but just you know, even ordinary lives are could upsetting.
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's a decision that was made when she was younger.
Speaker 3: It wasn't the right one, but how many wrong decisions
Speaker 3: are made as we go along. Regretting something is a
Speaker 3: waste of time. You move on find something else to
Speaker 3: be passionate about.
Speaker 1: In spite of their similar childhoods, Isabelle and Christina see
Speaker 1: the world so differently. Christina is a dreamer, and for her,
Speaker 1: the best possible world is the one that's always just
Speaker 1: out of reach. But for Isabelle, it's not about pursuing
Speaker 1: the best possible world at all. It's about making the
Speaker 1: best of this world, the one you're stuck in, and
Speaker 1: evidently with the people you're stuck with.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't look after her. If you know, if I
Speaker 3: didn't care about it, it would have been different, I think,
Speaker 3: you know. But I was interested in what she did
Speaker 3: and how she progressed, and wanted her to do well
Speaker 3: at school, do well and everything. And I was very
Speaker 3: proud of her when she did. She was with us
Speaker 3: a long time. Couldn't get rid of her. Just kidding.
Speaker 1: Isabelle pauses, and then she says, appraisingly, she.
Speaker 3: Deserves a good life. I do have one good and
Speaker 3: I think it's better because she had some stability in it,
Speaker 3: which I feel she got to my house.
Speaker 1: I'll get on that side. We say our goodbyes and
Speaker 1: head to the car. Outside Isabelle's, the parking lot has
Speaker 1: grown dark. Thank you.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: As we get into the rental car, Christina lets out a.
Speaker 6: Sigh, Well, so did how did you feel then about that?
Speaker 4: It was just really intense and there's a lot of
Speaker 4: things that she said that were like that were very
Speaker 4: hurtful to me. It's like she affected me tonight, but
Speaker 4: not in the way that she used to. I didn't
Speaker 4: get I didn't get the fuzzy teddy bear cuddly.
Speaker 3: Thing.
Speaker 4: And that's okay that I didn't get that, but what
Speaker 4: I got was her, and and it wasn't everything I needed.
Speaker 4: But I feel like that's how she shows love. And
Speaker 4: it's not with hugs, and it's not with I love yous,
Speaker 4: and it's not with praise necessarily either. It's in a
Speaker 4: way that I understand now, Whereas before I just felt
Speaker 4: like she just didn't even like me, But now I
Speaker 4: can see that she loves me in her way and
Speaker 4: in the best way that.
Speaker 3: She knows how.
Speaker 1: In the end, it seems like this is why Christina
Speaker 1: came here, not to find out why Isabelle made her
Speaker 1: stop playing basketball, but to find out whether Isabelle loved her,
Speaker 1: And in her tough, straight shooting, slightly scary way, it's
Speaker 1: pretty clear she does. Do you know why I want
Speaker 1: to go to scott Haa Park. No, it's a surprise.
Speaker 5: Oh oh, it's.
Speaker 1: Not a big surprise. The next morning, before heading home,
Speaker 1: I take Christina and her husband Levi out to a
Speaker 1: nearby park. Oh have pits, I know. I have a
Speaker 1: paper bag I've been carrying with me since Brooklyn. It's
Speaker 1: a good thing you're wearing running shoes. When the anticipation
Speaker 1: reaches at Zenith, I revealed to Christina and Levi what's
Speaker 1: in the bag out of basketball, which I think they'd
Speaker 1: sort of guessed since we were now standing by a
Speaker 1: basketball court and I was dribbling a spherical paper bag.
Speaker 1: I turned to LEVI, have you ever seen Christina play
Speaker 1: basketball before?
Speaker 4: Maybe? Not? Yeah, I don't think we've ever played.
Speaker 1: Christina says she hasn't played in over ten years. She
Speaker 1: doesn't even watch basketball on TV anymore. I hold out
Speaker 1: the ball and Christina looks at it. Then she looks
Speaker 1: at Levi, and then she takes it from my hands.
Speaker 4: Check check, Oh rusty.
Speaker 1: But when she gets going, it seems to come back
Speaker 1: to her.
Speaker 4: Oh, behind the back, behind the back again.
Speaker 6: It goes.
Speaker 1: Trash talking, calling her own shots, driving hard to the basket.
Speaker 1: There was a different sign to Christina that was coming
Speaker 1: out on the court. It happened suddenly and easily.
Speaker 4: You're going to get that. I think it's too nothing
Speaker 4: at this point. I don't think i've scored it, have I.
Speaker 1: The best basketball players are said to have an almost
Speaker 1: supernatural ability to see a little head, to anticipate what
Speaker 1: will happen next. But Christina and Levi aren't that good,
Speaker 1: and so they play like a couple of kids for
Speaker 1: whom the future doesn't matter or the past, and in
Speaker 1: that space between, it seems like a pretty good life.
Speaker 4: Okay, I love you.
Speaker 3: Now that the Fernentures return into its goodwill.
Speaker 1: Home, Now that the last month's rent is scheming with.
Speaker 3: The damaged possible, take this moment to dissolve. If we
Speaker 3: meant it, if we.
Speaker 1: Tried, we remember felt around for far too.
Speaker 3: Take from Things That Accidentally Zero.
Speaker 1: Heavyweight is hosted and produced by me Jonathan Goldstein along
Speaker 1: with Khalila Holt. The senior producer is Caitlin Roberts. Editing
Speaker 1: by Jorge just, Alex Bloomberg and Wendy Door. Special thanks
Speaker 1: to Emily Condent, Misha Gluberman, Stevie Lane, and Jackie Cohen.
Speaker 1: The show was mixed by Kate Bolinski, music by Christine Fellows,
Speaker 1: John K. Sampson, and Edwin. Additional music credits for this
Speaker 1: episode can be found on our website Gimbletmedia dot com
Speaker 1: slash Heavyweight. Our theme song is by The Weaker Bands
Speaker 1: courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by
Speaker 1: Hailey Shaw. Follow us on Twitter at Heavyweight or email
Speaker 1: us at Heavyweight at gimletmedia dot com. We'll have a
Speaker 1: new hot puppy of an episode next week.
Speaker 5: Way, so, Jonathan, you have a wife.
Speaker 3: I hear you say yes. Ye can't keep looking new over, can't.
Speaker 1: I think I think I probably looked best from your perspective.
Speaker 1: I think it's a good look for me. It's kind
Speaker 1: of blurry,