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Speaker 1: Hello, Hey, do you have a copy of TV Guide?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: No, why I can't find my copy? And I was

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Speaker 1: wondering what was on TV? Don't don't you remember?

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Speaker 3: Don't you remember? Don't you don't?

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Speaker 4: Wait?

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Speaker 1: Wait, don't you remember calling people up on the phone.

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Speaker 4: I do remember that, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Just just to see what was on. I remember calling

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Speaker 1: on my aunt Tilly because I was too I was

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Speaker 1: too lazy to get up off the couch to look

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Speaker 1: for the TV Guide, so I just called her up.

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Speaker 1: Who woman could hardly walk and she had to search

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Speaker 1: around for a TV guide to go. I'm GIMILTT Media.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight today's episode, Christina.

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Speaker 1: This is the best of all possible worlds. My father

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Speaker 1: was fond of saying. The words were spoken contentedly, often

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Speaker 1: while reclining in a barca lounger belt buckle undone after

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Speaker 1: a large meal of baked beans and lamb chops. But

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Speaker 1: what did my father know of other worlds? He'd held

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Speaker 1: down the same job and was married to the same

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Speaker 1: woman for decades plus. He hardly left the house. But

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Speaker 1: what he did know was that this world had one

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Speaker 1: thing over all of those other worlds. It existed for

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Speaker 1: my father. That was enough to make it best. I,

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, am not one over so easily.

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Speaker 3: Sure.

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Speaker 1: Existence is a nice quality, a fine quality, but going

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Speaker 1: so far as to call a world that contains both

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Speaker 1: soul patches and puddles the best possible anything seems a

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Speaker 1: little extreme, and so imagining other worlds the same, only

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Speaker 1: better is just too irresistible. In spite of the pain

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Speaker 1: such thinking inevitably invites. Why don't we start from the beginning. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is Christina, and like me, she knows this world

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Speaker 1: can use a few tweaks. Overall, she says her life

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Speaker 1: hasn't been a bad one, It's just not the one

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Speaker 1: she was meant to live. She's worked as a waitress,

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Speaker 1: a receptionist, as a home care worker, the kinds of

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Speaker 1: jobs you do, but not necessarily the kind you dream about. Lately,

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Speaker 1: she's been helping run her husband's company.

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Speaker 4: It's a disc golfing backpack company.

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Speaker 1: Say sorry, say that again. It's a what disc golf

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Speaker 1: backpack is? What is disc golf?

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Speaker 4: It's like ball golf, but instead of balls and clubs,

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Speaker 4: you have frisbees.

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Speaker 1: Oh, when you say ball golf, you're talking about golf.

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Speaker 4: Golf like a regular golf.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I've never heard it referred to distinguished as

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Speaker 1: ball golf, but I.

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Speaker 4: Well, only disc golfers call it ball golf.

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Speaker 1: So, but how do you how do you get a

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Speaker 1: frisbee in a golf hole?

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Speaker 4: No, it's actually not a hole, it's a basket.

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Before she started pining after better worlds,

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Speaker 1: Christina was focused on just one, the world of small

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Speaker 1: town western Canada.

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Speaker 4: I lived with my mom. She was a single mom.

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Speaker 4: My dad left when I was around one, and my

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Speaker 4: mom was diagnosed with schizophrenia.

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Speaker 1: Christina was just a kid, so a lot of it's

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Speaker 1: now fuzzy, but she remembers bits of things, her mom

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Speaker 1: going off her meds and beginning to hear voices, her

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Speaker 1: mom waking her in the middle of the night and

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Speaker 1: saying they had to leave right away. She remembers running

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Speaker 1: with her mom down dark streets.

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Speaker 4: She started becoming violent and she would just you know,

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Speaker 4: hit me with the phone handle, or this one time

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Speaker 4: she came after me with a high heeled shoe. There's

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Speaker 4: no food in the house. She wouldn't do laundry, like

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Speaker 4: the dirty clothes would pile up in the living room, like,

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Speaker 4: I remember this massive mound of dirty clothes, and I

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Speaker 4: remember this kid made fun of me for having dirty pants,

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Speaker 4: and so I started stealing clothes just so I could

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Speaker 4: have clean clothes to go to school.

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Speaker 1: When you were a kid trying to survive on your own,

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Speaker 1: the unthinkable can start to seem normal. To escape her house,

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Speaker 1: Christina took a job caring for two boys not much

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Speaker 1: younger than herself. She became a twelve year old live

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Speaker 1: in nanny.

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Speaker 4: So I ended up moving in with this family and

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Speaker 4: looking after the boys. They paid me a little bit,

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Speaker 4: and I quit school to be a nanny.

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Speaker 1: When she stopped showing up at school, social services removed

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Speaker 1: Christina from the nannying house, but instead of bringing her

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Speaker 1: back to her mom, they took her to a fi

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Speaker 1: her home. She was sent to live with an older

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Speaker 1: couple and their grandson. They lived on the fancier side

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Speaker 1: of town in a house decorated with candleholders and decorative pistols.

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Speaker 1: The foster mother was a woman named Isabelle. Her grandson, David,

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Speaker 1: was the golden boy who could do no wrong. From

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Speaker 1: day one, Christina struggled for Isabelle's approval.

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Speaker 4: My foster mother and I kind of butted heads a

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Speaker 4: little bit or a lot.

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Speaker 1: Although Isabelle was only an inch taller, Christina was scared

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Speaker 1: of her. Her foster mother communicated through rules and punishments.

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Speaker 4: She was very strict. I was five minutes late for curfew.

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Speaker 4: I would be grounded for a month. It felt like

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Speaker 4: I was always grounded and afraid all the time, and

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Speaker 4: kind of walking on eggshells, and yeah, just feeling always

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Speaker 4: really intimidated and scared. I was always scared.

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Speaker 1: And when she got scared, Christina would go silent. As

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Speaker 1: a result, she never once stood up to Isabelle. It

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Speaker 1: was while living in Isabelle's world that another better world

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Speaker 1: presented itself to Christina, a world with rules that were

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Speaker 1: easy to understand, a world where someone was always keeping

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Speaker 1: score and keeping things fair. This was the eighty four

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Speaker 1: x fifty foot world of a basketball court.

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Speaker 4: I can't explain how much I was obsessed with basketball.

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Speaker 4: I would practice at like six in the morning at

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Speaker 4: the school. I would practice on weekends. I'd watch the

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Speaker 4: NBA games with Clyde the Glide and Charles Barkley, and

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Speaker 4: then my name was in the paper a few times.

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Speaker 4: I think I have some paper clippings of like high scoring.

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Speaker 4: I loved, loved, loved basketball.

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Speaker 1: On the basketball court and it was never scared. It

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Speaker 1: was a place where, for the first time in her life,

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Speaker 1: she felt in control and confident. Her foster brother, David,

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Speaker 1: a popular jock, spent hours helping her get better. She

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Speaker 1: joined a team and quickly became a high scorer. Eventually

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Speaker 1: she was made team captain.

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Speaker 4: They would always put me inside, like I would always

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Speaker 4: have to guard the post.

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Speaker 1: When Christina talks about basketball, she lights up, and I

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Speaker 1: want to encourage her to keep talking by asking questions.

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Speaker 1: But my only real knowledge of basketball comes from watching

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Speaker 1: the Harlem Globetrotters. I was in my thirties before I

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Speaker 1: learned it was illegal to bring stilts onto the court,

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Speaker 1: so my questions are limited.

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Speaker 4: We tall no only five to six. But I guess

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Speaker 4: I kind of had this unrealistic view of myself where

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Speaker 4: I thought I was taller than I was because off court,

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Speaker 4: I was like kind of meek, and I'd just follow

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Speaker 4: the crowd and I wouldn't create any waves. I didn't

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Speaker 4: really have an opinion, but on the court, I was

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Speaker 4: a force to be reckoned with. It was like the

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Speaker 4: only time where I felt powerful.

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Speaker 1: It was around this time that a plan began to

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Speaker 1: take shape. If she kept practicing and kept winning, she'd

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Speaker 1: get a basketball scholarship. Christina knew that was her only

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Speaker 1: hope of getting into college.

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Speaker 4: I wanted to get out of that circle of welfare

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Speaker 4: and illness and living from paycheck to paycheck and just

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Speaker 4: feeling just being poor.

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Speaker 1: It sucked, which brings us to the moment that thirty

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Speaker 1: years later, Christina still can't stop thinking about. She'd just

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Speaker 1: come home from school when Isabelle called her into the kitchen,

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Speaker 1: sat her down at the table, and presented her with

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Speaker 1: an ultimatum.

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Speaker 4: She said, you have to get your grades up. You

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Speaker 4: have to work harder at school, and so in order

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Speaker 4: for me to be able to play basketball following year,

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Speaker 4: which would have been eleventh grade, I had to have

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Speaker 4: an average of a bee in every class. But I

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Speaker 4: was really bad at math and chemistry, and I didn't

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Speaker 4: make it. I wasn't allowed to play basketball.

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Speaker 1: What she remembers most about that time was watching a

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Speaker 1: lot of TV and overeating and the chores. After forcing

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Speaker 1: Christina to quit the basketball team, Isabelle handed her chores

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Speaker 1: that felt like ironic punishments from the Judy Bloom version

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Speaker 1: of Dante's Inferno. She had to bake cookies for the family,

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Speaker 1: but because of her weight gain, she wasn't allowed to

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Speaker 1: eat any, and when she dusted the house, Isabelle instructed

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Speaker 1: her to pick up David's basketball trophies, dust each one,

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Speaker 1: and dust the shelf underneath. All the while, Christina felt

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Speaker 1: her loss acutely of basketball and the better world had promised.

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Speaker 4: She took something from me that I that I've not

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Speaker 4: been able to get back.

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Speaker 1: What is that thing?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I don't even know. I don't. I don't.

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Speaker 4: When I say that out loud, it sounds ridiculous, but

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Speaker 4: it feels like that passion for something it dashed this

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Speaker 4: huge dream that I had.

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Speaker 1: For my life. Christina still wonders why why did Isabelle

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Speaker 1: take away basketball, the only thing that really mattered to her,

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Speaker 1: that would have given her a better life, But all

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Speaker 1: these years she's been too afraid to ask.

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Speaker 4: She's going to be ninety five in July. The thought

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Speaker 4: of talking to her about it petrifies me a little bit,

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Speaker 4: like there's still a part of me that is scared

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Speaker 4: of her, which is ridiculous. And what do you want,

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Speaker 4: I think, yeah, I think I want to know, like

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Speaker 4: why she made my life so difficult, if it was

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Speaker 4: just to break me down, if she had some kind

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Speaker 4: of thing against.

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Speaker 1: Me, And what do you want to hear her say?

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Speaker 4: I guess I want to just hear her say that

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Speaker 4: she just genuinely wanted me to have better grades. But

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Speaker 4: I know that that's just such bs. For whatever reason,

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Speaker 4: I've let go of a lot of things that have happened,

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Speaker 4: but for whatever reason, this one thing, the basketball thing,

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Speaker 4: not letting me play basketball. I'm having such a hard

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Speaker 4: time letting go of that and forgiving her. I want

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Speaker 4: to let it go.

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Speaker 1: So you want to go talk to her?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: You, and you want me to come? Yes, I get

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Speaker 1: really mealy mouthed when I'm in the same room as

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Speaker 1: like strong willed, scary older women. I'll tell you that

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Speaker 1: right now, I'm not going to be much help.

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Speaker 4: So we're doing it.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like we're doing it all right. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: go talk to that scary lady after the break. How

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Speaker 1: much mincing can a Meilie mouth mince? When a Melie

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Speaker 1: mouth meets a menacing miss who writes this stuff? I

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Speaker 1: guess I do once I gave Christina my word that

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Speaker 1: i'd help, I approached CEO and Gimblet founder Alex Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: to ask if he could fly me to the British

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Speaker 1: Columbian interior to confront a ninety five year old woman

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Speaker 1: about something she may or may not have said some

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Speaker 1: thirty years ago, to which Alex asked, why are you

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Speaker 1: always standing just outside the door whenever I get out

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Speaker 1: of the bathroom? And I said it was a coincidence,

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Speaker 1: although I might have pronounced it Quinki dink to be playful.

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Speaker 1: And he asked how long this trip would take me

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Speaker 1: out of the office, and I said a week, and

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Speaker 1: he said to take longer if I needed it. So

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Speaker 1: I was off to Canada.

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Speaker 2: Tail de nos ai, are you to?

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Speaker 1: I meet Christina and her husband Levi at the Colonna

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Speaker 1: Airport in British Columbia. They'd just flown in from Portland,

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Speaker 1: and the look of trust on their faces is daunting.

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Speaker 1: When meeting new people, especially people I'm about to help.

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Speaker 1: I'm more comfortable with looks of skepticism or anticipatory disappointment.

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Speaker 1: Trust was disconcerting, Yes I have. It was an hour

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Speaker 1: and a half drive to Isabelle's. So we made our

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Speaker 1: way to the airport rental desk to get a car

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Speaker 1: Goldstein G.

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Speaker 4: O L D.

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Speaker 3: And I just asked what that is there?

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's just a we're doing a radio story.

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Speaker 3: So I've just do you mind turning that off and

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Speaker 3: put away?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? If I couldn't even stand up to the car

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Speaker 1: rental clerk, what hope did I have of helping Christina

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Speaker 1: stand up to Isabelle.

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Speaker 5: It's hot in here, I want to.

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Speaker 1: Say, it's been well over two years since Christina's seen Isabelle.

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Speaker 1: She's feeling anxious, so I try to keep the mood positive.

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Speaker 1: I bet the thrift stores are really good around here.

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Speaker 1: I point out foreign license plates, and because we're in

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Speaker 1: a foreign country, there are many pretty Have you guys

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Speaker 1: been watching this show called Little Big Lies or big

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Speaker 1: little Lies or little big Lies? Well set, I think so.

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Speaker 1: Isabelle lives on the ground floor of a squat apartment

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Speaker 1: block mostly inhabited by seniors. We wait. When no one answers,

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Speaker 1: we ring the bell. The door opens. I heard you

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Speaker 1: the first time, Isabelle says. Christina smiles in spite of herself.

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Speaker 1: She can't help but get a kick out of Isabelle.

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Speaker 1: Isabelle peers up at us from behind her walker, Christina's husband,

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Speaker 1: Levi makes introductions, isabel Hi, how are you doing?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 4: That?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Is me reacting to Isabelle's handshake, a surprisingly powerful

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Speaker 1: thing that yanks me through the doorframe. Although a diminutive

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Speaker 1: woman with white, puffy hair and wirerim glasses, Isabelle's just

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Speaker 1: established herself as the alpha. Nice to meet you, Nice.

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Speaker 3: To meet you.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you seem to be doing great.

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Speaker 3: I'm doing not bad for my age, I guess.

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Speaker 1: Isabelle's apartment is tidy and dim, decorated with candles that

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Speaker 1: haven't been lit in years. We slowly follow her down

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Speaker 1: a narrow hallway to her living room, where she seats

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Speaker 1: herself in a faded blue mechanized armchair. On the drive over,

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Speaker 1: Christina mentioned that Isabelle is legally blind, but I misremember

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Speaker 1: this as Isabelle being legally deaf, so I compliment her

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Speaker 1: on how well she's following along. Well, I'm not talking

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Speaker 1: very loud, and you you've been able to hear everything.

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Speaker 3: So I did say there's nothing wrong with my ears right.

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Speaker 1: And you did.

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Speaker 4: Not.

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Speaker 1: To recover from this faux pas, I offer Isabelle a

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Speaker 1: chance to feel my face run her hands through my beard,

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Speaker 1: which is something I think I saw done in the mirror.

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Speaker 1: If ever, you want to feel my stubble, or I.

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Speaker 3: Don't go running around feeling beards.

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Speaker 1: I decide that now's as good a time as any

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Speaker 1: to offer around the airport treats I bought during my layover.

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Speaker 1: I brought some refreshments. Since I don't want to put

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Speaker 1: Isabelle out by asking for a party tray, I scooted

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Speaker 1: my travel socks and underwear to the side of my

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Speaker 1: backpack and proffer them straight from the bag, some chocolate

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Speaker 1: covered nuts and such.

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Speaker 3: Not right now, thank you?

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Speaker 1: No, okay, I'll leave them in the bag. If I've

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Speaker 1: learned anything from my work in the business of forcing

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Speaker 1: people to ask terrifying questions, it was that it's always

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Speaker 1: best to just get it over with. Ask the question

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Speaker 1: why did you ruin my life? Get the answer, and

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Speaker 1: head back to the hotel bar to eat the juiciest,

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Speaker 1: fattiest tea bone steak that Gimlet Media's fourteen dollars per

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Speaker 1: dim allows. But staging is everything I need to be

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Speaker 1: off hand subtle. Do you Christina, do you have anything

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Speaker 1: that you you want to ask about, or Christina looks

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Speaker 1: down at her hands and tightens her lips. Of course

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Speaker 1: I understand her hesitation. Isabelle is even more intimidating in

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Speaker 1: person than Christina made her out, and nothing about being

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Speaker 1: here can possibly feel much like coming home. The walls

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Speaker 1: and shelves are loaded with photos of Isabelle's children, grandchildren,

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Speaker 1: and great grandchildren, but there isn't a single photo anywhere

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Speaker 1: of her only foster child, Christina. To break the silence,

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Speaker 1: I ask Isabelle why she originally took Christina into her

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Speaker 1: home in the first place.

303
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Speaker 3: And one of my children left a child for me

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Speaker 3: to raise my grandson. Yeah, so I thought life was

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00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,240
Speaker 3: just my husband and I. We were both older. It

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00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,760
Speaker 3: would be kind of very dull for him. So I

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00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,679
Speaker 3: thought that having someone else around the house would make

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Speaker 3: make it a little more homey for him. But I

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00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,399
Speaker 3: hadn't chosen Christina. Christina was brought to me and it

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Speaker 3: was just she was just there. This wild looking thing

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Speaker 3: seemed a little bit of training to live in a home,

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Speaker 3: so obviously she hadn't been brought up with anything. I

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Speaker 3: just thought any child living under my roof had to

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Speaker 3: be taught.

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Speaker 1: Something meaning like what kind of things like you mean

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Speaker 1: normal like rules and.

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Speaker 3: Well rules, yeah, the rules. I don't think that our

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Speaker 3: rules were terribly.

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Speaker 4: Strict, really, I mean I felt like they were strict.

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Speaker 3: Well maybe you thought so, that most kids do, but

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Speaker 3: there were the the same rule as my kid's head.

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Speaker 1: Christina hesitates. You can see it's hard for her to

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Speaker 1: talk back to Isabelle even now.

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Speaker 4: But then she says, but David didn't have rules, No,

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Speaker 4: he didn't need any.

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Speaker 3: He is the most perfect person I've ever.

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Speaker 1: Raised, Christina. Another person she happened to have raised, is

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Speaker 1: seated a couple feet away from her. Christina stares ahead blankly,

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Speaker 1: not saying anything. So I press Isabelle, Well, you must

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Speaker 1: have done something wrong. I mean it's only.

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Speaker 3: Very little. You'd be surprised how perfect he was.

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Speaker 1: Was that hard though, being like side by side with

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Speaker 1: someone who.

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Speaker 3: Is just so No, I think it was good for.

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Speaker 1: Her, Christina, Is that is that how you feel?

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Speaker 3: It was hard?

337
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:52,440
Speaker 1: Yeah?

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00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,040
Speaker 5: It was really hard.

339
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Speaker 1: Something else that's been hard is finding the courage to

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Speaker 1: ask the question that brought her here. Christina gives it

341
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 1: a shot, but after some throat clearing again, she goes silent,

342
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:13,920
Speaker 1: go ahead and ask.

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Speaker 4: I think the one thing that I have kind of

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Speaker 4: always wondered is do you remember I think it was

345
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Speaker 4: in tenth grade and I had been playing basketball and

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Speaker 4: you told me that I had to get my grades

347
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Speaker 4: up where I couldn't play basketball anymore.

348
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Speaker 5: Do you remember that?

349
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:42,120
Speaker 3: No?

350
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Speaker 4: Okay, so I didn't get my grades up and I

351
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:49,879
Speaker 4: had to quit the team.

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Speaker 3: I don't remember that, Agittall, I don't know. I still.

353
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Speaker 4: Was. It was devastating for me.

354
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Speaker 3: Why did you get your grade out there?

355
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Speaker 4: Yeah?

356
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Speaker 1: I asked Christina if she could explain to Isabelle why

357
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Speaker 1: losing basketball hurt so much.

358
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Speaker 5: Not without crying.

359
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 3: I felt like.

360
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 4: It was like the one thing that I.

361
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 3: Was really good at.

362
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:32,840
Speaker 1: Are you surprised to hear Christina talk about how much

363
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:34,679
Speaker 1: she loved basketball?

364
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Speaker 4: Like?

365
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 1: Was that something that you knew back then?

366
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:37,800
Speaker 3: I didn't know what.

367
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 1: No, did Christina? Did you ever express it?

368
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 3: I don't think she did. I don't think so. No,

369
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Speaker 3: I don't think you did.

370
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 4: I think the reason why, like it still affects me now,

371
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 4: it is because I didn't fight.

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Speaker 1: For it, and how could she have. She never felt

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Speaker 1: like she had the right to stop her feet to

374
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 1: slam the bedroom door in so many words, to act

375
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Speaker 1: like someone's kid. I thought that maybe if I could

376
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,880
Speaker 1: get Isabelle to put herself in Christina's shoes, it might

377
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: help her understand. Was there anything that you can think

378
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: of that's comparable from your own life, Isabelle, Like something

379
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 1: that you really felt very passionate about, like the thing

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00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 1: that you really that was your great love.

381
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 3: Not really. I always wanted to go to school more

382
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 3: than I did. I really wanted a good education, which

383
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 3: of the country you weren't able to get.

384
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Speaker 1: Her father was a rancher, Isabelle says, and her mom

385
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 1: died when she was little, so her dad raised the

386
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: kids by himself, and Isabelle, being the eldest, had a

387
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 1: lot of responsibility.

388
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Speaker 3: I used to miss school every year when I go

389
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,199
Speaker 3: to be a certain age and had to herd cattle.

390
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 3: So I'd missed about two months or a month of

391
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,360
Speaker 3: school every year when I was old enough to do this.

392
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:14,639
Speaker 3: But I was first in my class from the day

393
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 3: I started till the day I finished. I was never

394
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 3: anything but first in my class.

395
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: Was that typical that a lot of kids in the

396
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 1: class have to miss?

397
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 3: No, just me and well we were brought up by

398
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 3: our dad. Men bring up children differently than women.

399
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what ways? How do you mean?

400
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 3: I mean my dad didn't teach me to ride horseback.

401
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 3: He just threw me on a horse and told me

402
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 3: to go. You know a woman wouldn't do that, And

403
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:48,199
Speaker 3: don't think not likely. My father was quite fond of me.

404
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, how far did you go in school?

405
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:58,120
Speaker 3: Just? Grade nine? I took grade nine by correspondence, so.

406
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 1: You didn't You never ended up getting there the high

407
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 1: school degree.

408
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 3: No. Yeah, school was an important thing to me because

409
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 3: I felt that's how you'd make your living.

410
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I.

411
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 3: Remember when I was through school, my stepmother looking in

412
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 3: the paper and she found a dishwashing job for me.

413
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 3: She thought that I always capable of was washing dishes

414
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 3: in some restaurant. I felt very insulted. It always surprised

415
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 3: me when kids didn't want to get all the education

416
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 3: they possibly could.

417
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: Isabelle motions towards Christina.

418
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 3: There's only so far you can go on basketball. I

419
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 3: always felt your education was more important. But as a kid,

420
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 3: sometimes you know, you don't see that. I knew. I

421
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 3: tried to teach her to be self sufficient because I

422
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 3: knew that she'd only have herself to depend upon.

423
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 1: Isabelle wanted to give Christina something she never got herself,

424
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: a good education. But by depriving Christina basketball, Isabelle took

425
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 1: away just that. At the time, though she didn't know it.

426
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,959
Speaker 1: What Isabelle did know was that when Christina showed up

427
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: at her door thirty years ago, she was already in

428
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: her sixties. Isabelle was old, and if she were to die,

429
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 1: Christina would be left all alone. She'd only become a

430
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: foster child because no one in her extended family had

431
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: stepped up to take her in. She had no one else.

432
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: What did you know about Christina's childhood before she met you?

433
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 3: Not much of anything that I can remember. Like her

434
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 3: mother was ment lel. I guess she knows that. And

435
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 3: I lost my mother when I was five, and my

436
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 3: father eventually had a nervous breakdown, so I knew what

437
00:26:59,000 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 3: it was like to live with them.

438
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: Challenged Bertha, Oh, what was it like?

439
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 3: Terrible? It was horrible. You didn't know if someone was

440
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 3: going to kill you today or tomorrow, or what the

441
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 3: heck was going to happen.

442
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: That's not an exaggeration. You're really were.

443
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 3: It's not an exaggeration. I remember taking my little brother

444
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 3: and sister outside and trying to hide them. He was

445
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 3: left with five little children. Yeah, and he was terrified

446
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 3: that they were going to take the kids away from him.

447
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 3: And I used to sit by his bed and hold

448
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 3: his hand, and one day he said to me, Isabelle,

449
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 3: why do you keep holding my hand? And in my

450
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 3: own way, I was trying to let him know that

451
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 3: we all loved him.

452
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: Isabelle eventually placed her father in a mental hospital.

453
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 3: I admitted him.

454
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 1: Oh, and you were how old.

455
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 3: At that time? I was appo fourteen.

456
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: Wow, that's a big burden.

457
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was. And I thought, here, I'm fourteen, What

458
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 3: the hell am I doing here?

459
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 1: All the while, as Isabelle talks, Christina, seated in an

460
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 1: armchair beside her, listens quietly, her hands gripping the armrest.

461
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: Without looking at Isabelle, she makes her presence known.

462
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 4: I have many memories of visiting my mom in the

463
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 4: mental hospital when I was young, like seven, eight nine,

464
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 4: kind of age ten.

465
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: It's weird.

466
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 4: It's a really weird experience to go knowing that the

467
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 4: other people are mentally unstable and.

468
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 3: You can't predict what they're going to do.

469
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, and my mom was, you know, kind of a

470
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 4: zombie because of all the medication, and obviously it was

471
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 4: like sad and upset that she had to be there

472
00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 4: and wasn't with me.

473
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

474
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 5: It was an awful place.

475
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 4: It makes you grow up way too fast.

476
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. I mean I was never a kid

477
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 3: until I got married and had my own kids, and

478
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 3: then I had a lot of fund raising my own children. Yeah.

479
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 4: I think that's why I was a nanny, because I

480
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 4: could be around kids and have a childhood with all

481
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 4: these other children.

482
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I what I did. I grew up

483
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 3: with my own children. That's what was my childhood. Yeah,

484
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 3: you know, I'd play with my children just like I

485
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 3: was one of them.

486
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I did the same thing.

487
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 3: One day, one of the neighbors looked at me, one

488
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 3: of the little girls, and she's just how old are you?

489
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: These were stories that neither Christina nor Isabelle had ever

490
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: told each other. Watching them connect like this, it feels

491
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: like a good time to bring the subject back to basketball.

492
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: How much over the past thirty years, Christina's fretted over

493
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: Isabel's decision. Knowing this now, I ask Isabelle, would you

494
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: have done things differently.

495
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 3: Oh, I wished I had a known more about it

496
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 3: at the time, But I mean, I still have no

497
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 3: regrets about it.

498
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: It's as though Isabelle just doesn't understand what the word

499
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: regret means. So I offer a working definition. If we

500
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 1: were to set off in a time machine where we

501
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: could return to that time, and Christina were to.

502
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 3: Say, I know what you're saying, but frankly, I don't

503
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 3: know what i'd do. You know, I really don't. It

504
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 3: would depend on what kind of a mood I'm in.

505
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: If you were in the mood that you're in right now,

506
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: I really have no idea.

507
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 3: I could give you a lot of BS and tell

508
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 3: you how good it would have been, but it wouldn't

509
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 3: be in the truth.

510
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: I think like a lot of people would just give

511
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: Christina the BS.

512
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't do that. I usually tell it truth.

513
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: Like most I can lie upwards of ten thousand times

514
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: a day. It helps ease the friction of getting through life.

515
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: People ask how I am, and I say fine, does

516
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: this jumpsuit make my ass look fat? And I say no?

517
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: And so on, lying all the day long until bedtime,

518
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,959
Speaker 1: at which point I'm not sure the lying stops. I

519
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: can probably lie in my dreams. In other words, I

520
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: hold lying to be the greatest gift God gave to man.

521
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: But even with all of our lies and best intentions,

522
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: we still can't escape hurting one another. I don't think

523
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: Isabelle is a cruel woman, but I do think she

524
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: knows that hurting people and being hurt is the price

525
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: one pays for being human.

526
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 3: There is nothing out of the ordinary in our lives,

527
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 3: but just you know, even ordinary lives are could upsetting.

528
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's a decision that was made when she was younger.

529
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 3: It wasn't the right one, but how many wrong decisions

530
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 3: are made as we go along. Regretting something is a

531
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 3: waste of time. You move on find something else to

532
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 3: be passionate about.

533
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: In spite of their similar childhoods, Isabelle and Christina see

534
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: the world so differently. Christina is a dreamer, and for her,

535
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: the best possible world is the one that's always just

536
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: out of reach. But for Isabelle, it's not about pursuing

537
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: the best possible world at all. It's about making the

538
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: best of this world, the one you're stuck in, and

539
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: evidently with the people you're stuck with.

540
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 3: I wouldn't look after her. If you know, if I

541
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 3: didn't care about it, it would have been different, I think,

542
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 3: you know. But I was interested in what she did

543
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 3: and how she progressed, and wanted her to do well

544
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 3: at school, do well and everything. And I was very

545
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 3: proud of her when she did. She was with us

546
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 3: a long time. Couldn't get rid of her. Just kidding.

547
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: Isabelle pauses, and then she says, appraisingly, she.

548
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 3: Deserves a good life. I do have one good and

549
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 3: I think it's better because she had some stability in it,

550
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 3: which I feel she got to my house.

551
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: I'll get on that side. We say our goodbyes and

552
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: head to the car. Outside Isabelle's, the parking lot has

553
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: grown dark. Thank you.

554
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

555
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: As we get into the rental car, Christina lets out a.

556
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 6: Sigh, Well, so did how did you feel then about that?

557
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 4: It was just really intense and there's a lot of

558
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 4: things that she said that were like that were very

559
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 4: hurtful to me. It's like she affected me tonight, but

560
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,720
Speaker 4: not in the way that she used to. I didn't

561
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 4: get I didn't get the fuzzy teddy bear cuddly.

562
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 3: Thing.

563
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 4: And that's okay that I didn't get that, but what

564
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 4: I got was her, and and it wasn't everything I needed.

565
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 4: But I feel like that's how she shows love. And

566
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 4: it's not with hugs, and it's not with I love yous,

567
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 4: and it's not with praise necessarily either. It's in a

568
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 4: way that I understand now, Whereas before I just felt

569
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 4: like she just didn't even like me, But now I

570
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 4: can see that she loves me in her way and

571
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 4: in the best way that.

572
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 3: She knows how.

573
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,280
Speaker 1: In the end, it seems like this is why Christina

574
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: came here, not to find out why Isabelle made her

575
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: stop playing basketball, but to find out whether Isabelle loved her,

576
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: And in her tough, straight shooting, slightly scary way, it's

577
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:44,439
Speaker 1: pretty clear she does. Do you know why I want

578
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: to go to scott Haa Park. No, it's a surprise.

579
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 5: Oh oh, it's.

580
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,879
Speaker 1: Not a big surprise. The next morning, before heading home,

581
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: I take Christina and her husband Levi out to a

582
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: nearby park. Oh have pits, I know. I have a

583
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: paper bag I've been carrying with me since Brooklyn. It's

584
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: a good thing you're wearing running shoes. When the anticipation

585
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 1: reaches at Zenith, I revealed to Christina and Levi what's

586
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: in the bag out of basketball, which I think they'd

587
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,800
Speaker 1: sort of guessed since we were now standing by a

588
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: basketball court and I was dribbling a spherical paper bag.

589
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 1: I turned to LEVI, have you ever seen Christina play

590
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: basketball before?

591
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 4: Maybe? Not? Yeah, I don't think we've ever played.

592
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: Christina says she hasn't played in over ten years. She

593
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: doesn't even watch basketball on TV anymore. I hold out

594
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: the ball and Christina looks at it. Then she looks

595
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 1: at Levi, and then she takes it from my hands.

596
00:36:54,400 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 4: Check check, Oh rusty.

597
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: But when she gets going, it seems to come back

598
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 1: to her.

599
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 4: Oh, behind the back, behind the back again.

600
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 6: It goes.

601
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 1: Trash talking, calling her own shots, driving hard to the basket.

602
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: There was a different sign to Christina that was coming

603
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: out on the court. It happened suddenly and easily.

604
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 4: You're going to get that. I think it's too nothing

605
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 4: at this point. I don't think i've scored it, have I.

606
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,240
Speaker 1: The best basketball players are said to have an almost

607
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 1: supernatural ability to see a little head, to anticipate what

608
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 1: will happen next. But Christina and Levi aren't that good,

609
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: and so they play like a couple of kids for

610
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: whom the future doesn't matter or the past, and in

611
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 1: that space between, it seems like a pretty good life.

612
00:37:51,840 --> 00:38:01,760
Speaker 4: Okay, I love you.

613
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:34,240
Speaker 3: Now that the Fernentures return into its goodwill.

614
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: Home, Now that the last month's rent is scheming with.

615
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 3: The damaged possible, take this moment to dissolve. If we

616
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 3: meant it, if we.

617
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 1: Tried, we remember felt around for far too.

618
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 3: Take from Things That Accidentally Zero.

619
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: Heavyweight is hosted and produced by me Jonathan Goldstein along

620
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: with Khalila Holt. The senior producer is Caitlin Roberts. Editing

621
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: by Jorge just, Alex Bloomberg and Wendy Door. Special thanks

622
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,760
Speaker 1: to Emily Condent, Misha Gluberman, Stevie Lane, and Jackie Cohen.

623
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: The show was mixed by Kate Bolinski, music by Christine Fellows,

624
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 1: John K. Sampson, and Edwin. Additional music credits for this

625
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 1: episode can be found on our website Gimbletmedia dot com

626
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,720
Speaker 1: slash Heavyweight. Our theme song is by The Weaker Bands

627
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by

628
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 1: Hailey Shaw. Follow us on Twitter at Heavyweight or email

629
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: us at Heavyweight at gimletmedia dot com. We'll have a

630
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: new hot puppy of an episode next week.

631
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 5: Way, so, Jonathan, you have a wife.

632
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 3: I hear you say yes. Ye can't keep looking new over, can't.

633
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 1: I think I think I probably looked best from your perspective.

634
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: I think it's a good look for me. It's kind

635
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:13,720
Speaker 1: of blurry,