WEBVTT - Ep 75 Mercury: The cost of progress

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<v Speaker 1>My love for my husband has become stronger since I

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<v Speaker 1>fell ill with this disease. My mouth quivers so badly

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<v Speaker 1>that I can't touch the food people bring me, so

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<v Speaker 1>I give all my presents to Mohe he's been so helpful,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, so kind. Did I tell you before that

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<v Speaker 1>I am his second wife. We met through a matchmaker.

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<v Speaker 1>I came here from Amakusa. Less than three years after

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<v Speaker 1>we got married, I fell ill with this strange disease,

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<v Speaker 1>such bad luck. I can't even address my kimono. Look

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<v Speaker 1>how I shake. No matter how often I tell my

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<v Speaker 1>body to stop shaking, it won't obey me. I can't

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<v Speaker 1>control my own hands and legs. Whenever he comes here,

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<v Speaker 1>my husband helps me address my kimono, muttering that I've

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<v Speaker 1>become a helpless woman. Once he said I should wear

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<v Speaker 1>underpants because my kimono kept falling in front. So he

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<v Speaker 1>brought me long drawers and helped me into them. As

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<v Speaker 1>he helped me into the pants, I said to him,

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<v Speaker 1>I have really become a helpless creature, My dear, I

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<v Speaker 1>want to get my own body back the way it

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<v Speaker 1>was before. I want to go back to the strong,

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<v Speaker 1>healthy body with which I came into the world. I've

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<v Speaker 1>never been sick, I've never had to stay in bed.

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<v Speaker 1>I was brimming with energy. I could work harder than

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<v Speaker 1>any man. It used to be so lovely out on

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<v Speaker 1>the sea. I want nothing else, just to be like

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<v Speaker 1>I was before I got the strange disease, to be

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<v Speaker 1>able to row a boat and to land a net again.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel so miserable now, a helpless wretch with a

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<v Speaker 1>body like a freak. I can't even wash my underwear

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<v Speaker 1>when I have my period. If I don't work, my

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<v Speaker 1>family won't be able to make ends meet. Minamata disease

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<v Speaker 1>is hell. I feel like I was drifting away from

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<v Speaker 1>this world. I have no grip. I cannot hold my

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<v Speaker 1>husband's hand in mine. My arms shake so hard that

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<v Speaker 1>I can't even draw my own dear son close to me.

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<v Speaker 1>I might even bear this if I could go on

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<v Speaker 1>living somehow. But I can't eat. I can't even bring

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<v Speaker 1>the rice bowl to my mouth. I can't hold my

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<v Speaker 1>chopsticks when I walk. It's not like putting one leg

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<v Speaker 1>in front of the other on the ground, but like

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<v Speaker 1>floating on air. I am afraid. I always get the

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<v Speaker 1>feeling that someone is trying hard to pull me out

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<v Speaker 1>of this world roots and all. I feel so lonely.

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<v Speaker 1>You healthy people have no idea what it's like to

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<v Speaker 1>lie in bed, sick and forgotten by all. My husband

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<v Speaker 1>is the only person I can still rely on. He

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<v Speaker 1>is my only hope. I love him so much that

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<v Speaker 1>I'd give my life for him. God, I wish I

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<v Speaker 1>could use my hands and legs again. I wish I

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<v Speaker 1>could work again like I used to.

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<v Speaker 2>This is going to be a tough episode for so

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<v Speaker 2>many reasons.

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<v Speaker 1>M hm.

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<v Speaker 2>So that was excerpted from a book titled Paradise in

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<v Speaker 2>the Sea of Sorrow by Issimode Michiko.

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<v Speaker 1>And that was a description, of course, of someone suffering

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<v Speaker 1>from minamata.

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<v Speaker 2>Disease right, also known as methyl mercury poisoning. Hi, I'm erin.

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<v Speaker 1>Welsh and I'm erin Alman Updike And.

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<v Speaker 2>This is this podcast will kill you.

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<v Speaker 1>So today we're talking about mercury.

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<v Speaker 2>Mercury. Yeah, it's a very big and very challenging topic

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<v Speaker 2>for a number of reasons.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this listeners, we have been just talking amongst ourselves

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<v Speaker 1>about how much of a challenge this episode has been

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<v Speaker 1>for us. Yeah, the biology has been a real struggle

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<v Speaker 1>trying to not only piece all of the complicated parts together,

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<v Speaker 1>but be able to tell the story in a way

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<v Speaker 1>that makes sense and is like easy for me to explain.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think in both respects, both biology and history,

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<v Speaker 2>the scope is enormous, enormous, and so I think figuring

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<v Speaker 2>out what to concentrate on has been difficult. But also

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<v Speaker 2>like as I did research for this, it was really

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<v Speaker 2>emotionally difficult as well, like its is a very heart

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<v Speaker 2>wrenching and horrifying like disease, while minamata disease specifically, but

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<v Speaker 2>just like the kinds of things that mercury can can cause,

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<v Speaker 2>not all the time, as we will find out, I'm sure, Aaron,

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I do think though it'll be a very

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<v Speaker 2>interesting one. This is our second heavy metal yeah yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, this will be a very different episode I

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<v Speaker 1>think though than Lead. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure. Well yeah, but one thing will be

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<v Speaker 2>the same, and that is.

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<v Speaker 1>That it's quarantiny time.

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<v Speaker 2>It is what are we drinking this week?

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<v Speaker 1>We're drinking quicksilver.

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<v Speaker 2>Quicksilver it's the other name common name for mercury.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you know that I did not know that until

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<v Speaker 1>we researched this episode. Really, I had no idea that

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<v Speaker 1>that's what Quicksilver was escape brand to me and a

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<v Speaker 1>surf brand.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a banned from the seventies for me, I

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<v Speaker 2>had I have had my parents old albums.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah I did not.

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<v Speaker 2>That is hilarious.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Anyways, what's in a Quicksilver It is.

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<v Speaker 2>Vodka, cucumber, lime and a little bit of basil simple

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<v Speaker 2>syrup and a little splash of soda water at the end.

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<v Speaker 1>So refreshing.

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<v Speaker 2>And we will post the full recipe for this quarantini

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<v Speaker 2>as well as the non alcoholic place Brita on our website.

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<v Speaker 2>This podcast will kill You dot com other business.

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<v Speaker 1>We have a website. It's this podcast will Kill You

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<v Speaker 1>dot com yepy. We have so many things there, from

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<v Speaker 1>merch to bookshop dot org to transcripts to all of

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<v Speaker 1>the lists of our sources. We now have a Patreon.

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<v Speaker 1>We have so much available there. Check it out.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, do it? Okay, should we get started on this episode.

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<v Speaker 1>We should right after this break. Mercury is an element

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<v Speaker 1>HG also called hydrogorum something like that.

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<v Speaker 2>There are too many like rs in that word. It's

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<v Speaker 2>no wonder that it was changed to mercury to be.

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<v Speaker 1>Honest, and like Aaron's had already also called quicksilver, so

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<v Speaker 1>this is a heavy metal that is naturally found in

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<v Speaker 1>the Earth's crust. However, the majority of this sort of

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<v Speaker 1>bioavailable mercury that we are exposed to as humans has

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<v Speaker 1>been put into the mercury cycle, which we'll talk a

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<v Speaker 1>lot more about very much later in this episode, from

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<v Speaker 1>anthropogenic sources, mostly the burning of coal, which releases mercury vapor,

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<v Speaker 1>as well as gold mining, some various forms of gold mining,

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<v Speaker 1>and a lot of other industrial products. Yep, so mercury.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sure that everyone is at least vaguely familiar with

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<v Speaker 1>mercury because it is so fascinating to see because it's

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<v Speaker 1>the only metallic element that is liquid at room temperature

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<v Speaker 1>and looks like it's something out of a sci fi film.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely totally doesn't look real. But this liquid form of mercury,

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<v Speaker 1>as we'll find out, is certainly not the type of

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<v Speaker 1>mercury that causes the most potential harm to humans or

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<v Speaker 1>even other animals in wildlife.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I.

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<v Speaker 1>Want to just disclaimer, even though we kind of did already,

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<v Speaker 1>there's a lot to cover when it comes to this

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<v Speaker 1>like nitty gritty of mercury. I hope that I do

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<v Speaker 1>an adequate job. Let us try. So. Mercury comes in

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<v Speaker 1>a number of different forms, and each of these different

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<v Speaker 1>forms has a different level of potential toxicity to humans.

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<v Speaker 1>The three overarching categories of mercury that you can be

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<v Speaker 1>exposed to are elemental or metallic mercury that's quicksilver. Inorganic mercury,

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<v Speaker 1>which is mercury that is bound to like a chloride

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<v Speaker 1>or a nitrite. This is what used to be used

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<v Speaker 1>not to step on your history toes erin, but as

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<v Speaker 1>vermilion many many moons ago. It's like a rock that

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<v Speaker 1>is a color that was used for pigment. That's inorganic mercury.

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<v Speaker 2>Don't worry, I'm not going to talk about it.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh good. And then there is organic mercury. Organic mercury

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<v Speaker 1>is mercury bound to carbon and hydrogen. So these all

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<v Speaker 1>differ in terms of both exposure like how we could

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<v Speaker 1>expose to them, and also bioavailability how much they can

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<v Speaker 1>sort of disperse throughout our body and then cause damage.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's go over the like broad strokes differences between

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<v Speaker 1>these and then we'll talk about how similar they actually

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<v Speaker 1>are once they make it into your body. And then

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<v Speaker 1>we'll go over the symptoms. Kind of organ by organ

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<v Speaker 1>cool sounds good, all right. So elemental mercury aka just

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<v Speaker 1>plane HG. That is the liquid metal, but the way

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<v Speaker 1>that you're more likely to be exposed to it is

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<v Speaker 1>not by that metal itself, but is by mercury vapor.

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<v Speaker 1>So elemental mercury if you ingest it like you swallow it,

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<v Speaker 1>it's really not absorbed very well through the GI tract.

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<v Speaker 1>Something like point zero one percent is one estimate. I

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<v Speaker 1>saw it. Definitely less than one percent is absorbed. Do

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<v Speaker 1>not drink murcury though, But yeah, so elemental mercury vapors.

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<v Speaker 1>It's vaporized very quickly and easily, even at room temperatures,

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<v Speaker 1>but definitely when it's heated, and when it's inhaled, it's

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<v Speaker 1>absorbed very rapidly across your respiratory membranes. Like eighty to

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<v Speaker 1>one hundred percent of it is absorbed across your respiratory membranes,

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<v Speaker 1>and from there it can very rapidly diffuse across other

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<v Speaker 1>membranes in our body, including the blood, brain barrier, and

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<v Speaker 1>the placenta. Additionally, mercury vapor has a relatively long half

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<v Speaker 1>life in our body, about sixty days and so it

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<v Speaker 1>hangs around for quite some time and can kind of

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<v Speaker 1>build up, especially in organs like your brain. M hm. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>So that's elemental mercury and how we get exposed. Then

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<v Speaker 1>there's inorganic mercury, which I'm not going to talk a

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<v Speaker 1>ton about because it's probably the one that you're least

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<v Speaker 1>likely to be exposed to. But these can be absorbed

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<v Speaker 1>through the skin or the GI track if ingested, but

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<v Speaker 1>only about ten percent of ingested inorganic mercury is actually absorbed,

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<v Speaker 1>so again, it doesn't actually absorb very easily.

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<v Speaker 2>And the fact that it doesn't absorb very easily just

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<v Speaker 2>has to do with like binding, Like what exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>Listen, I asked for you to not ask me these

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<v Speaker 1>difficult questions.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry I couldn't resist.

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<v Speaker 1>But yes, it's essentially that our intestinal membrane doesn't allow

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<v Speaker 1>it to easily pass. And when we get into the

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<v Speaker 1>next one, maybe that will make a little bit more sense.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's get into it, okay, because then there is organic mercury.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to spend a little bit more time on this.

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<v Speaker 1>Organic mercury is formed when bacteria in the ocean or

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<v Speaker 1>the soil or our waterways take inorganic mercury, like metallic

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<v Speaker 1>mercury or inorganic mercury ions, And what they do is

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<v Speaker 1>they methylated, which means they add a car carbon and

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<v Speaker 1>some hydrogens. And when mercury is just floating around as

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<v Speaker 1>an ion or as a metal, it's not very bioavailable.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not like attractive for plants or animals, like they

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<v Speaker 1>can't use it when it's just in that form. But

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<v Speaker 1>now all of a sudden, it's connected to a carbon atom.

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<v Speaker 1>Now it's very bioavailable. So this methyl mercury can be

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<v Speaker 1>used by plants, can be taken up by plants, and

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<v Speaker 1>then those plants can be eaten by little fish that

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<v Speaker 1>will hold onto that mercury, and then larger fish will

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<v Speaker 1>eat those fish, and on and on up the food chain.

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<v Speaker 1>And this process is called bioaccumulation, where that mercury stays

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<v Speaker 1>within the system and by the time it makes its

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<v Speaker 1>way up to predatory fish like tuna, sharks, swordfish, or

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<v Speaker 1>other large bodied ocean predators especially, you can have very

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<v Speaker 1>very high levels of this methyl mercury in their mustle.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, which is why there are all those warnings about

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<v Speaker 2>how much can tuna you're supposed to eat and so

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<v Speaker 2>on the whole biomagnification exactly. Question.

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<v Speaker 1>It's going to be a hard one.

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<v Speaker 2>I maybe, okay, why slash? How do bacteria do this?

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<v Speaker 1>Great question? Bacteria are phenomenal in general at making inorganic

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<v Speaker 1>nutrients into organic nutrients and therefore available. That's what they

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<v Speaker 1>do with nitrogen, that's what they do with phosphorus, that's

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<v Speaker 1>what they do with all kinds of different ions. And

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<v Speaker 1>that's the best answer I'm going to be able to

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<v Speaker 1>give you. Oh, okay, okay, but yeah, it's like what

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<v Speaker 1>they do. That's like their point, not their point, but

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<v Speaker 1>that's like a huge part of the contribution of bacteria

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<v Speaker 1>and fungi who do this in the soil as well

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<v Speaker 1>to the sort of nutrient cycling in the environment. So

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<v Speaker 1>that's how methyl mercury exists. And then of course we

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<v Speaker 1>eat a fish and now we're exposed to it. So

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<v Speaker 1>methyl mercury, this organic mercury is by far the largest

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<v Speaker 1>contributor to our general exposure to mercury as humans, not

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<v Speaker 1>only because we're exposed to it through the consumption of

0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:17.880
<v Speaker 1>things like fish, shellfish, et cetera, but also because it

0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:22.280
<v Speaker 1>is almost one hundred percent absorbed through the gi tract

0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:25.240
<v Speaker 1>in addition to potentially being absorbed through the skin or

0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:29.480
<v Speaker 1>inhalation if you were to be exposed that way. So

0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.800
<v Speaker 1>it's of the forms of mercury, it's probably the most

0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:37.920
<v Speaker 1>easily absorbed, especially through the GI tract, and once it's absorbed,

0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.680
<v Speaker 1>it can very easily and readily distribute it itself throughout

0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:45.520
<v Speaker 1>the body. It can cross the blood, brain barrier and placenta.

0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:47.960
<v Speaker 1>And we'll talk a bit more about how it does

0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:51.960
<v Speaker 1>that in just a minute. And even more concerningly than

0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.920
<v Speaker 1>elemental mercury, the half life of methyl mercury in the

0:15:55.960 --> 0:16:01.640
<v Speaker 1>body is longer, it's seventy days or sometimes longer, and

0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.680
<v Speaker 1>the way that it's excreted is different. So it's excreted

0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:08.480
<v Speaker 1>in our feces, it has to be conjugated in our

0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:11.760
<v Speaker 1>liver and then we have to poop it out, whereas

0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:15.440
<v Speaker 1>other forms of mercury, like inorganic and elemental mercury, we

0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:19.520
<v Speaker 1>actually excrete in our urine. Huh, Yeah, isn't that interesting?

0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:21.200
<v Speaker 2>That's very interesting.

0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.880
<v Speaker 1>So that's all the different sort of forms of mercury

0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:28.640
<v Speaker 1>and how we get exposed to them, and the difference

0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:32.080
<v Speaker 1>is in how much of the mercury you're exposed to

0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:36.120
<v Speaker 1>is going to actually make it into your body. I

0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:38.840
<v Speaker 1>will also note there's a lot of other forms of

0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:43.000
<v Speaker 1>organic mercury besides methyl mercury, some of which are even

0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:48.200
<v Speaker 1>more toxic, like die ethyl or dye methyl mercury. Yeah,

0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:53.240
<v Speaker 1>but in general, in fish, for example, by far, the

0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:55.360
<v Speaker 1>most common one that you're going to be exposed to

0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:58.640
<v Speaker 1>is methyl mercury. That's what is most common in the environment.

0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:01.800
<v Speaker 1>The other forms, and to be produced in industrial settings

0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:04.160
<v Speaker 1>rather than by bacteria in the environment.

0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:05.320
<v Speaker 2>Okay, gotcha?

0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:10.480
<v Speaker 1>All right, So now that we know all that, what

0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:13.760
<v Speaker 1>does that actually look like when this mercury does get

0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.800
<v Speaker 1>into our bodies? What happens and why does it make

0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:20.120
<v Speaker 1>us so sick? So again, here there's a lot of complication,

0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:27.560
<v Speaker 1>And what I'll say upfront is that if anyone remembers

0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:31.200
<v Speaker 1>our lead episode, a lot of the mechanisms of how

0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:36.520
<v Speaker 1>mercury causes toxicity are not very dissimilar to lead. But

0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:39.840
<v Speaker 1>the difference was that in lead, there's like kind of

0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:44.800
<v Speaker 1>one very compact story, like lead binds to a specific

0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:50.680
<v Speaker 1>enzyme that then blocks heme synthesis and causes anemia. With mercury,

0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:55.200
<v Speaker 1>because of what it does, it has a much broader effect,

0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:59.720
<v Speaker 1>and therefore it's more difficult to pinpoint the precise mechanism.

0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:03.320
<v Speaker 1>If that makes sense of toxicity, Yes, so I'm just

0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:05.199
<v Speaker 1>gonna kind of look at the broad strokes and I

0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:09.760
<v Speaker 1>think that we'll understand a lot of it. So in

0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:12.360
<v Speaker 1>all of the various forms, once you're exposed to mercury,

0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:16.320
<v Speaker 1>once it gets into our bodies, it generally exists as

0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:21.439
<v Speaker 1>a positively charged ion, a cat ion. So either HG

0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:26.080
<v Speaker 1>plus or HG two plus or even methyl mercury itself

0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:31.640
<v Speaker 1>is a positively charged molecule. And because it's positively charged,

0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:35.600
<v Speaker 1>like all positively charged ions, they have an affinity for

0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:41.119
<v Speaker 1>negatively charged things in our body. That means proteins and

0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:46.639
<v Speaker 1>some amino acids. Uh so yeah, oh is right, and

0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.240
<v Speaker 1>so that's lead does the same thing. Lead exists as

0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:52.760
<v Speaker 1>a positive ion and binds to certain proteins. In the

0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:58.000
<v Speaker 1>case of mercury, though, mercury has a strong affinity for

0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:04.040
<v Speaker 1>proteins and amino appaids that contain two different types of residues,

0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:09.440
<v Speaker 1>sulfur groups which are called thiols and selenium groups, which

0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:14.080
<v Speaker 1>are called selenols. So there's two big problems with this number.

0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:18.920
<v Speaker 1>One there are some amino acids, like, for example, cystine,

0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:23.800
<v Speaker 1>which is an amino acid with two sulfurs that when

0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:30.640
<v Speaker 1>methylmercury binds to cystine, it looks like another amino acid,

0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:36.919
<v Speaker 1>methionine that's a neutral amino acid and is not just

0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:41.560
<v Speaker 1>able to cross barriers, but can be actively transported across

0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:45.359
<v Speaker 1>barriers like the placenta and the blood brain barrier, okay,

0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:50.080
<v Speaker 1>by amino acid transporters. So not only can this ion

0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:55.359
<v Speaker 1>itself potentially cross these barriers once it connects with cysteine,

0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:59.000
<v Speaker 1>it can be transported like oh hey, you look like methionine.

0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:01.960
<v Speaker 1>Come on over, we're going to use you to build

0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:04.119
<v Speaker 1>this fetus, or we're going to use you and like

0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:05.920
<v Speaker 1>deposit you in the brain right now.

0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:07.200
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god.

0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:12.879
<v Speaker 1>So that's yeah, that's bad. The other thing, so, because

0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:15.240
<v Speaker 1>that kind of tells us that's how it gets into

0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:18.000
<v Speaker 1>these structures, what does it do once it's there? Like,

0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:21.679
<v Speaker 1>why is that so bad to have mercury instead of

0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:27.080
<v Speaker 1>actually methionine By binding two not just cysteine, but a

0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:31.280
<v Speaker 1>number a whole suite of proteins, amino acids, and enzymes.

0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:37.080
<v Speaker 1>What mercury does is it causes a cascade of downstream effects.

0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:41.920
<v Speaker 1>It basically blocks interrupts the actions of these various enzymes

0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.360
<v Speaker 1>or proteins. And like I said, it's not just one,

0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:48.480
<v Speaker 1>it's not just cysteine. There's a whole bunch of enzymes

0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:53.720
<v Speaker 1>that have either sulfur or selenium groups on them. So

0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:58.000
<v Speaker 1>one of the principal effects seems to be that an

0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:03.959
<v Speaker 1>increase in mercury leads to a decrease in the antioxidant

0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:07.240
<v Speaker 1>ability of our body. So a lot of the damage

0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:12.080
<v Speaker 1>that occurs in mercury toxicity is due to reactive oxygen species.

0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:19.359
<v Speaker 1>So basically, mercury is blocking enzymes that normally help fix

0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:22.960
<v Speaker 1>oxidative damage, and it blocks their ability to do so

0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:25.800
<v Speaker 1>it's like boop, you can't fix this. And so now

0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:30.400
<v Speaker 1>there's just this free floating reactive oxygen that can cause

0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:32.760
<v Speaker 1>a lot of damage. And when you combine that with

0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:35.879
<v Speaker 1>its ability to cross these important membranes like the blood

0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:40.280
<v Speaker 1>brain barrier and the placenta, you get oxidative damage in

0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:42.840
<v Speaker 1>structures that can't easily be repaired.

0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:45.639
<v Speaker 2>That makes a lot of sense.

0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:49.680
<v Speaker 1>I'm glad because it took me a long time to understand.

0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:52.439
<v Speaker 2>The I mean, it's really complicated and like, these are

0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:55.639
<v Speaker 2>things I haven't thought about, like oxidative stress, and I

0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:59.000
<v Speaker 2>on is like that's nitty gritty, but that's very and

0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:02.880
<v Speaker 2>so this is just this is just because the mercury ion,

0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:08.240
<v Speaker 2>once it's in you, is attracted too. It's binding to

0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:11.919
<v Speaker 2>these negatively charged things and sort of replacing their function

0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:15.000
<v Speaker 2>or preventing them from from functioning the way they should.

0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:19.679
<v Speaker 1>Okay, precisely exactly, yeah, exactly, and it can do that

0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:24.560
<v Speaker 1>on so many different sort of proteins and enzymes. Yeah,

0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:25.600
<v Speaker 1>so it's very bad.

0:22:25.800 --> 0:22:28.920
<v Speaker 2>And so this is why systemic.

0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:32.360
<v Speaker 1>Systemic and why so many of the symptoms like we'll

0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:35.800
<v Speaker 1>see are neurologic, right, because once it gets into the brain,

0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:38.560
<v Speaker 1>it can kind of just stay there for quite some time,

0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:45.399
<v Speaker 1>bound to these proteins and enzymes. So the symptoms in

0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:48.720
<v Speaker 1>some ways do depend on the form of mercury that

0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:53.320
<v Speaker 1>somebody is exposed to, but what they really depend on

0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:57.080
<v Speaker 1>is where that mercury goes and potentially accumulates. And so

0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:00.560
<v Speaker 1>that also depends on whether the exposure is a whole

0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:05.000
<v Speaker 1>bunch of mercury all at once, like acute toxicity, or

0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:07.840
<v Speaker 1>a smaller amount of mercury over a longer period of

0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:12.160
<v Speaker 1>time or chronic toxicity. So I'll kind of go through

0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:17.000
<v Speaker 1>very briefly system like, organ system by organ system, because

0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:20.760
<v Speaker 1>since we're exposed to these different forms of mercury in

0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:25.760
<v Speaker 1>different ways, they tend to have most effects on certain organs,

0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:30.120
<v Speaker 1>if that makes sense. But the truth is that any

0:23:30.160 --> 0:23:33.359
<v Speaker 1>of these forms of mercury can potentially cause any of

0:23:33.400 --> 0:23:36.280
<v Speaker 1>these types of symptoms, right, because once it's in your body,

0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:38.920
<v Speaker 1>it all acts relatively similarly.

0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:40.080
<v Speaker 2>Right, that makes sense.

0:23:40.080 --> 0:23:44.080
<v Speaker 1>There are still some subtle differences, but all right, so

0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:48.560
<v Speaker 1>let's talk about our lungs first. You're most likely to

0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:51.440
<v Speaker 1>be exposed to mercury in your lungs through mercury vapor,

0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:56.320
<v Speaker 1>which is mostly elemental mercury. This happens most often in

0:23:56.320 --> 0:24:02.480
<v Speaker 1>industrial or occupational settings, and inhalation of mercury vapor, especially

0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:07.080
<v Speaker 1>a large amount, like more than a thousand micrograms per

0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:14.240
<v Speaker 1>cubic meter of air, can cause massive interstitial numinitis. So

0:24:14.320 --> 0:24:19.720
<v Speaker 1>this means inflammation in the lining surrounding, like the spaces

0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:23.280
<v Speaker 1>in between your cells of your lungs. Because this mercury,

0:24:23.400 --> 0:24:25.520
<v Speaker 1>you can kind of think of it as just ripping

0:24:25.600 --> 0:24:30.200
<v Speaker 1>through the lining of your lungs. So you'll have all

0:24:30.240 --> 0:24:33.439
<v Speaker 1>this inflammation, which will lead to a pretty severe cough

0:24:33.720 --> 0:24:36.680
<v Speaker 1>because of all this fluid, a lot of chest pain

0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:39.480
<v Speaker 1>because that fluid is going to irritate the whole lining

0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:44.480
<v Speaker 1>of your chest, difficulty breathing. This mercury does distribute throughout

0:24:44.480 --> 0:24:46.800
<v Speaker 1>your body, so it's common to have a rash that

0:24:46.880 --> 0:24:50.760
<v Speaker 1>appears on the skin. People often have a metallic taste

0:24:50.760 --> 0:24:53.600
<v Speaker 1>in their mouth and might feel nauseous or might vomit.

0:24:54.720 --> 0:24:57.000
<v Speaker 1>They might start bleeding from the gums, which is a

0:24:57.000 --> 0:24:59.560
<v Speaker 1>pretty common symptom of a lot of different forms of

0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:05.760
<v Speaker 1>mercury poisoning is sort of ginge ofvitis, and then elemental

0:25:05.760 --> 0:25:09.120
<v Speaker 1>mercury is removed from the body mostly through the kidneys,

0:25:09.160 --> 0:25:10.479
<v Speaker 1>so we can see kidney failure.

0:25:10.720 --> 0:25:13.720
<v Speaker 2>Okay, yeah, but often if.

0:25:13.720 --> 0:25:16.919
<v Speaker 1>With large enough exposures, this is fatal. This is a

0:25:17.000 --> 0:25:20.560
<v Speaker 1>very fatal form of exposure, and the death tends to

0:25:20.560 --> 0:25:23.359
<v Speaker 1>be due to respiratory failure, especially in the case of

0:25:23.480 --> 0:25:27.159
<v Speaker 1>children who are exposed to large quantities of elemental mercury vapor.

0:25:28.520 --> 0:25:31.760
<v Speaker 2>What is a large quantity.

0:25:32.080 --> 0:25:37.440
<v Speaker 1>So in general, these like acute symptoms would happen at

0:25:37.480 --> 0:25:42.160
<v Speaker 1>pretty high concentrations, like above a thousand micrograms per cubic meter.

0:25:42.480 --> 0:25:44.640
<v Speaker 1>I tried to get a sense of like how many

0:25:45.080 --> 0:25:48.080
<v Speaker 1>grams of like liquid mercury would cause to get that,

0:25:48.320 --> 0:25:50.480
<v Speaker 1>but I couldn't get that number. I think in part

0:25:50.520 --> 0:25:52.720
<v Speaker 1>because it depends on like are you heating it or

0:25:52.800 --> 0:25:54.640
<v Speaker 1>is it just at room temperature and all of that.

0:25:55.880 --> 0:25:59.879
<v Speaker 1>But even at chronic, like lower levels of exposure between

0:26:00.240 --> 0:26:04.040
<v Speaker 1>twenty five to one hundred micrograms per cubic meter of air,

0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:07.760
<v Speaker 1>even those levels have been shown to be enough to

0:26:07.800 --> 0:26:13.159
<v Speaker 1>cause chronic symptoms, which tend to be more neurologic. And

0:26:13.200 --> 0:26:15.400
<v Speaker 1>we'll talk about the neurologic symptoms in just a bit.

0:26:16.359 --> 0:26:18.920
<v Speaker 2>It's hard to picture those amounts, but I know.

0:26:18.840 --> 0:26:21.960
<v Speaker 1>It's so that for a lot of this, even in fish,

0:26:22.000 --> 0:26:24.640
<v Speaker 1>it's like I have no idea how much mercury that is.

0:26:26.119 --> 0:26:29.399
<v Speaker 1>One number that I saw really commonly was that. So

0:26:29.760 --> 0:26:33.800
<v Speaker 1>in a mercury thermometer, there's anywhere from zero point five

0:26:34.000 --> 0:26:39.240
<v Speaker 1>to three grams of mercury. So often average is used

0:26:39.280 --> 0:26:43.200
<v Speaker 1>as one gram of mercury in a thermometer, and you'll

0:26:43.200 --> 0:26:45.879
<v Speaker 1>see the stat that one gram of mercury can cause

0:26:45.920 --> 0:26:50.560
<v Speaker 1>contamination of a twenty acre lake. That's a big lake,

0:26:50.720 --> 0:26:53.040
<v Speaker 1>that's a big lake. It's not a huge lake, but

0:26:53.240 --> 0:26:58.320
<v Speaker 1>it's a lake, and that stat is true, but with

0:26:58.400 --> 0:27:03.840
<v Speaker 1>the caveat that that number comes from the annual deposition

0:27:04.080 --> 0:27:08.439
<v Speaker 1>of mercury in a lake in Minnesota. I believe it

0:27:08.440 --> 0:27:12.720
<v Speaker 1>was Minnesota, where about a gram of mercury was deposited

0:27:12.760 --> 0:27:14.920
<v Speaker 1>over the course of a year, and those fish then

0:27:15.080 --> 0:27:19.320
<v Speaker 1>had high levels of mercury, like unacceptably high levels. So

0:27:19.359 --> 0:27:22.400
<v Speaker 1>it's true, but it's not like if you just took

0:27:22.400 --> 0:27:24.480
<v Speaker 1>a thermometer and broke it and dumped it in a lake,

0:27:24.560 --> 0:27:26.840
<v Speaker 1>then you would contaminate all those fish because it's a

0:27:26.840 --> 0:27:29.480
<v Speaker 1>process that takes time, and if you just dumped a

0:27:29.520 --> 0:27:32.040
<v Speaker 1>bunch of mercury, most of it wouldn't actually find its

0:27:32.080 --> 0:27:36.159
<v Speaker 1>way into the fish, right, but over time, that amount

0:27:36.160 --> 0:27:38.040
<v Speaker 1>of mercury would in fact work its way up the

0:27:38.080 --> 0:27:41.240
<v Speaker 1>food chain. Does that make sense? Okay, that makes sense. Yeah,

0:27:41.560 --> 0:27:44.520
<v Speaker 1>So then let's move on to the GI tract. Inorganic

0:27:44.560 --> 0:27:47.560
<v Speaker 1>mercury is probably one of the most maybe not the

0:27:47.560 --> 0:27:51.480
<v Speaker 1>most common, but it's associated with pretty strong GI symptoms

0:27:51.520 --> 0:27:54.920
<v Speaker 1>if you are exposed. But again, any form of mercury

0:27:54.960 --> 0:27:59.080
<v Speaker 1>can cause symptoms like this, So GI symptoms are things

0:27:59.119 --> 0:28:05.199
<v Speaker 1>like very severe abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, bloody diarrhea. I

0:28:05.320 --> 0:28:09.280
<v Speaker 1>did find that in the case of inorganic mercury, ingestion

0:28:09.400 --> 0:28:14.120
<v Speaker 1>of one gram or more can be lethal, either due

0:28:14.200 --> 0:28:19.680
<v Speaker 1>to kidney failure or cardiovascular collapse, because again, even though

0:28:19.920 --> 0:28:22.880
<v Speaker 1>only about ten percent of it is absorbed, if that

0:28:22.960 --> 0:28:26.199
<v Speaker 1>then makes it into your heart, it can cause damage

0:28:26.200 --> 0:28:29.280
<v Speaker 1>there as well. Okay, the other thing too is that

0:28:29.320 --> 0:28:33.280
<v Speaker 1>inorganic mercury is something that can be present in most

0:28:33.359 --> 0:28:36.080
<v Speaker 1>places this is not legal, but it can be present

0:28:36.280 --> 0:28:40.080
<v Speaker 1>in skin care or makeup products, especially skin lightening products,

0:28:40.880 --> 0:28:45.600
<v Speaker 1>So that is very dangerous because inorganic mercury can be

0:28:45.680 --> 0:28:49.080
<v Speaker 1>readily absorbed through the skin, much better than the GI tract.

0:28:49.840 --> 0:28:52.720
<v Speaker 1>And then, of course there is the nervous system symptoms

0:28:52.760 --> 0:28:57.800
<v Speaker 1>which we most strongly associate with methyl mercury poisoning or

0:28:57.840 --> 0:29:00.920
<v Speaker 1>what we heard about in our first hand account minamata disease.

0:29:02.240 --> 0:29:06.160
<v Speaker 1>But again, especially in terms of like long term chronic

0:29:06.240 --> 0:29:09.440
<v Speaker 1>exposure to low levels of mercury, vapor or other forms

0:29:09.440 --> 0:29:13.600
<v Speaker 1>of mercury can certainly cause these same neurologic effects, and

0:29:13.800 --> 0:29:16.840
<v Speaker 1>just like with the other forms, exposure to a very

0:29:17.000 --> 0:29:22.200
<v Speaker 1>large dose and acute poisoning is often fatal, but what's

0:29:22.240 --> 0:29:25.160
<v Speaker 1>much more common is that people are exposed to low

0:29:25.240 --> 0:29:28.400
<v Speaker 1>level or moderate level doses over longer periods of time,

0:29:28.880 --> 0:29:31.160
<v Speaker 1>and then this methyl mercury is able to build up

0:29:31.200 --> 0:29:35.880
<v Speaker 1>in the nervous system and cause these effects. So in

0:29:35.960 --> 0:29:39.800
<v Speaker 1>adults or children who are exposed to methyl mercury, these

0:29:39.840 --> 0:29:46.239
<v Speaker 1>symptoms can take months to manifest, and what tends to

0:29:46.280 --> 0:29:50.360
<v Speaker 1>happen is that the peripheral nervous system is largely involved,

0:29:50.840 --> 0:29:53.800
<v Speaker 1>but then the central nervous system, so like the brain,

0:29:54.080 --> 0:29:57.479
<v Speaker 1>also then can become involved. So early it might be

0:29:57.520 --> 0:30:01.000
<v Speaker 1>things like sensory impairments, not being able to feel things

0:30:01.760 --> 0:30:05.120
<v Speaker 1>the way that you could before, or peristigias, which are

0:30:05.160 --> 0:30:08.760
<v Speaker 1>those feelings of like a burning sensation or a tingling,

0:30:09.120 --> 0:30:12.840
<v Speaker 1>maybe a numbness or like a pin prick sensation. Any

0:30:12.880 --> 0:30:16.200
<v Speaker 1>of those tremors like we heard in our first hand

0:30:16.200 --> 0:30:22.560
<v Speaker 1>account are very common, and those are all mostly peripheral

0:30:22.640 --> 0:30:26.160
<v Speaker 1>nervous system effects. But then as it affects your central

0:30:26.160 --> 0:30:29.760
<v Speaker 1>nervous system, you can have a taxia, which is difficulty

0:30:29.840 --> 0:30:36.360
<v Speaker 1>walking because you can't coordinate your limbs. This numbness and weakness,

0:30:36.640 --> 0:30:41.680
<v Speaker 1>you can have also rigidity in your muscles because the

0:30:41.760 --> 0:30:45.960
<v Speaker 1>nerves are not firing correctly. You can have dysarthria, which

0:30:45.960 --> 0:30:49.040
<v Speaker 1>is difficulty speaking because you can't coordinate the muscles of

0:30:49.080 --> 0:30:53.600
<v Speaker 1>your mouth. You can also have things like memory loss, dementia,

0:30:54.720 --> 0:30:58.560
<v Speaker 1>blurry vision or loss of vision, loss of hearing. So

0:30:58.640 --> 0:31:02.560
<v Speaker 1>this can affect any part of the nervous system, and

0:31:02.640 --> 0:31:06.640
<v Speaker 1>so especially in the case of large exposure or continued

0:31:06.680 --> 0:31:09.560
<v Speaker 1>chronic exposure, this can lead to death in kind of

0:31:09.600 --> 0:31:13.080
<v Speaker 1>any number of ways, from respiratory collapse because you've impaired

0:31:13.080 --> 0:31:15.800
<v Speaker 1>the nerves that are involved in breathing, or in the

0:31:15.840 --> 0:31:20.480
<v Speaker 1>brain like your respiratory drive. It can lead to cardiovascular collapse.

0:31:21.720 --> 0:31:26.640
<v Speaker 1>Even though methylmercury is primarily not excreted by the kidneys,

0:31:26.720 --> 0:31:29.160
<v Speaker 1>it still does have major effects on the kidneys, so

0:31:29.200 --> 0:31:33.440
<v Speaker 1>it can lead to renal failure. It's a pretty devastating disease.

0:31:33.760 --> 0:31:38.440
<v Speaker 2>It is, yeah, absolutely devastating, is yeah.

0:31:39.120 --> 0:31:42.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And then of course, methyl mercury also affects the

0:31:42.880 --> 0:31:46.600
<v Speaker 1>developing nervous system of a fetus, and so it can

0:31:46.640 --> 0:31:50.800
<v Speaker 1>cause abnormal development in a number of different ways. It

0:31:50.840 --> 0:31:54.320
<v Speaker 1>can lead to congenital blindness or deafness. It can lead

0:31:54.360 --> 0:31:58.400
<v Speaker 1>to an inadequately developed brain or an incompletely developed brain,

0:31:58.520 --> 0:32:04.200
<v Speaker 1>so microcephaly. It can lead to difficulties with walking or speaking.

0:32:04.800 --> 0:32:07.000
<v Speaker 1>It can lead to a syndrome that looks a lot

0:32:07.040 --> 0:32:13.000
<v Speaker 1>like cerebral palsy, which is like exaggerated reflexes involuntary movements

0:32:13.000 --> 0:32:15.880
<v Speaker 1>of the limbs. Limbs are often rigid things that look

0:32:16.240 --> 0:32:20.120
<v Speaker 1>kind of very similar to what exposure to methyl mercury

0:32:20.160 --> 0:32:24.320
<v Speaker 1>would look like in an adult. But that happen congenitally essentially,

0:32:25.800 --> 0:32:29.960
<v Speaker 1>And that's, of course, if the baby survives, because large

0:32:30.000 --> 0:32:33.880
<v Speaker 1>quantities of methyl mercury exposure can also cause fetal demise

0:32:34.240 --> 0:32:40.640
<v Speaker 1>as well and pregnancy loss. So it's pretty horrific. Yes,

0:32:42.760 --> 0:32:45.120
<v Speaker 1>that's all I have for the biology here, and it's

0:32:45.480 --> 0:32:46.680
<v Speaker 1>the downer of an ending.

0:32:47.480 --> 0:32:49.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's a reality though, it is.

0:32:50.280 --> 0:32:55.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and the thing that's I think just so so

0:32:55.640 --> 0:32:58.320
<v Speaker 1>much worse. I don't know if that's even the right word.

0:32:58.400 --> 0:33:01.800
<v Speaker 1>But there's not really anything we can do, especially in

0:33:01.840 --> 0:33:05.760
<v Speaker 1>the case of methyl mercury poisoning. If exposure is from

0:33:05.920 --> 0:33:10.360
<v Speaker 1>metallic mercury vapor, you can use key lators, which are

0:33:10.560 --> 0:33:13.560
<v Speaker 1>essentially a way to help bind that mercury and help

0:33:13.640 --> 0:33:17.400
<v Speaker 1>us excrete it faster, but key lators don't really work

0:33:17.520 --> 0:33:23.360
<v Speaker 1>to treat inorganic or especially organic mercury poisoning, so there's

0:33:23.360 --> 0:33:25.520
<v Speaker 1>not much that you can do. And especially in the

0:33:25.560 --> 0:33:31.120
<v Speaker 1>case of this neurologic damage, it's permanent. You've destroyed those neurons.

0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:41.240
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, yeah, yeah, So Aerin, how in the heck

0:33:42.240 --> 0:33:44.840
<v Speaker 1>did we get here to this point?

0:33:45.720 --> 0:33:49.160
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I probably won't be able to answer that question,

0:33:49.360 --> 0:33:55.360
<v Speaker 2>but I will at least touch on some I think

0:33:55.400 --> 0:33:59.680
<v Speaker 2>pretty important things in the history of mercury. Okay, let's

0:33:59.720 --> 0:34:28.520
<v Speaker 2>take a quick break first. So, like you, Aaron, I

0:34:29.040 --> 0:34:33.800
<v Speaker 2>also got overwhelmed when I first started researching this because

0:34:33.880 --> 0:34:36.800
<v Speaker 2>this is a huge topic, not just in the biology,

0:34:36.840 --> 0:34:39.279
<v Speaker 2>but also in the history. And I say this for

0:34:39.480 --> 0:34:40.680
<v Speaker 2>like so many episodes.

0:34:40.840 --> 0:34:43.840
<v Speaker 1>I know, I would know we're so broken records.

0:34:43.600 --> 0:34:46.239
<v Speaker 2>I know, I know, but I mean I will say that,

0:34:46.280 --> 0:34:49.160
<v Speaker 2>like for mercury, there are many different ways that you

0:34:49.200 --> 0:34:51.640
<v Speaker 2>can tell the story. There's so many different things you

0:34:51.640 --> 0:34:54.439
<v Speaker 2>could focus on, Like you could focus on the role

0:34:54.560 --> 0:34:58.359
<v Speaker 2>of mercury in mining, the impact that mercury has had

0:34:58.400 --> 0:35:03.759
<v Speaker 2>on trade, mercury in chemistry, in alchemy, and religion, occult practices,

0:35:04.400 --> 0:35:07.040
<v Speaker 2>and then there's, of course the role that mercury has

0:35:07.080 --> 0:35:10.400
<v Speaker 2>played in the history of medicine, so like the development

0:35:10.440 --> 0:35:14.800
<v Speaker 2>of the mercury thermometer and how crucial that was. Mercury

0:35:14.960 --> 0:35:18.160
<v Speaker 2>used to treat syphilis and gonorrhea and other conditions.

0:35:18.400 --> 0:35:19.239
<v Speaker 1>We've talked about that.

0:35:19.239 --> 0:35:23.200
<v Speaker 2>We've talked about that, and mercury used in dentistry. I mean,

0:35:23.239 --> 0:35:26.440
<v Speaker 2>it just like goes on and on. And then there's

0:35:26.560 --> 0:35:30.880
<v Speaker 2>the darker side of mercury and its toxicity, especially in

0:35:31.360 --> 0:35:36.880
<v Speaker 2>occupational exposure or industrial exposure. So miners experiencing symptoms due

0:35:36.920 --> 0:35:41.360
<v Speaker 2>to chronic exposure, hatters exposed to mercury vapors, giving rise

0:35:41.600 --> 0:35:46.080
<v Speaker 2>maybe to the Alice in Wonderland mad Hatter character. And

0:35:46.120 --> 0:35:51.719
<v Speaker 2>then of course there's these many accidental and intentional cases

0:35:51.800 --> 0:35:56.920
<v Speaker 2>of mercury poisoning through ingestion. And the story of mercury

0:35:57.160 --> 0:36:01.879
<v Speaker 2>is not just super broad, it's all so quite deep, right,

0:36:01.960 --> 0:36:05.320
<v Speaker 2>because humans have been working with mercury since the early

0:36:05.440 --> 0:36:09.279
<v Speaker 2>days of civilization, using it for all of these things

0:36:09.320 --> 0:36:12.879
<v Speaker 2>I've already mentioned. It got its name, after all, from

0:36:12.920 --> 0:36:16.520
<v Speaker 2>the Roman god Mercury, who was the Greek god Hermes

0:36:17.200 --> 0:36:19.880
<v Speaker 2>couldn't resist throwing a little bit of ancient Greek or

0:36:19.880 --> 0:36:22.040
<v Speaker 2>ancient Roman trivia, and we've.

0:36:21.840 --> 0:36:24.479
<v Speaker 1>Got to have at least a touch, at least a touch.

0:36:25.080 --> 0:36:29.280
<v Speaker 2>But instead of trying to tackle the entirety of mercury

0:36:29.400 --> 0:36:33.560
<v Speaker 2>and its role in human culture and society, I decided

0:36:33.600 --> 0:36:39.160
<v Speaker 2>to focus specifically on one particular area, and that is

0:36:39.440 --> 0:36:45.759
<v Speaker 2>minimata disease and the horrible circumstances surrounding it. And if

0:36:45.760 --> 0:36:48.440
<v Speaker 2>you want to know more about these other areas of

0:36:48.480 --> 0:36:50.879
<v Speaker 2>mercury that I mentioned, there is a book that I'll

0:36:50.880 --> 0:36:54.240
<v Speaker 2>mention again in the sources section called Mercury, A History

0:36:54.239 --> 0:36:57.640
<v Speaker 2>of Quicksilver by Leonard Goldwater, and it's full of anecdotes

0:36:57.640 --> 0:37:04.719
<v Speaker 2>about its chemical and industrial and cultural history. Okay, but minimata.

0:37:04.840 --> 0:37:09.719
<v Speaker 2>So I decided to focus on this incident in particular

0:37:10.000 --> 0:37:14.040
<v Speaker 2>because it's a hugely important topic not only in the

0:37:14.080 --> 0:37:17.560
<v Speaker 2>history of Japan, but also in the general history the

0:37:17.600 --> 0:37:22.200
<v Speaker 2>global history of industrial contamination and putting the interest of

0:37:22.280 --> 0:37:26.239
<v Speaker 2>corporations above the health and well being of individuals. And

0:37:26.280 --> 0:37:30.719
<v Speaker 2>it's also still extremely relevant for today in its lessons

0:37:30.760 --> 0:37:35.000
<v Speaker 2>on the human costs of industrialization and pollution, but also

0:37:35.080 --> 0:37:38.600
<v Speaker 2>on the power of grassroots movements in raising awareness and

0:37:39.320 --> 0:37:44.760
<v Speaker 2>achieving maybe not justice, but accountability at least in some measure.

0:37:46.000 --> 0:37:49.120
<v Speaker 2>And I'm really worried that I'm not going to do

0:37:49.160 --> 0:37:52.959
<v Speaker 2>this story the justice it deserves. But at the very least,

0:37:52.960 --> 0:37:55.840
<v Speaker 2>what I hope will happen is that you will become

0:37:55.880 --> 0:37:58.600
<v Speaker 2>interested enough that you'll want to check out more of

0:37:58.640 --> 0:38:01.399
<v Speaker 2>these wonderful sources that I will list at the end

0:38:01.440 --> 0:38:05.480
<v Speaker 2>of the episode, because they are really like, there's so

0:38:05.600 --> 0:38:07.719
<v Speaker 2>much more to the story, and I really want people

0:38:07.719 --> 0:38:12.840
<v Speaker 2>to read more about it, okay. Minamata is a small

0:38:12.920 --> 0:38:18.240
<v Speaker 2>coastal city in the very southwestern tip of Japan, and today,

0:38:18.360 --> 0:38:21.360
<v Speaker 2>if you do a Google image search of Minamata, you

0:38:21.440 --> 0:38:25.719
<v Speaker 2>won't find many pictures of the beautiful Minamata Bay and

0:38:25.760 --> 0:38:30.120
<v Speaker 2>the shimmering Sharon Nui Si and the lush green mountains

0:38:30.160 --> 0:38:34.920
<v Speaker 2>surrounding the city. Instead, you'll find images from one of

0:38:34.960 --> 0:38:40.480
<v Speaker 2>the worst environmental disasters the world has ever seen. And

0:38:40.560 --> 0:38:44.239
<v Speaker 2>this is the legacy left behind by the Chiso Corporation,

0:38:44.640 --> 0:38:49.759
<v Speaker 2>still in operation today. The company first setup shop in

0:38:49.800 --> 0:38:54.080
<v Speaker 2>Minamata in nineteen oh eight, producing fertilizer, but then in

0:38:54.160 --> 0:38:57.600
<v Speaker 2>nineteen thirty two it expanded its operations when it began

0:38:57.719 --> 0:39:02.960
<v Speaker 2>to produce acid aldehyde, which importantly uses mercury sulfate as

0:39:02.960 --> 0:39:08.320
<v Speaker 2>a catalyst. Over the next few Decadeschiso ramped up production

0:39:08.480 --> 0:39:13.080
<v Speaker 2>of acidaldehyde, producing thousands or tens of thousands of tons

0:39:13.160 --> 0:39:17.240
<v Speaker 2>each year, and all of these tons of acidaldehyde meant

0:39:17.280 --> 0:39:21.440
<v Speaker 2>also the production of thousands of tons of waste, and

0:39:21.520 --> 0:39:25.120
<v Speaker 2>that waste, which was not great to begin with, became

0:39:25.360 --> 0:39:30.480
<v Speaker 2>incredibly deadlier when in nineteen fifty one, the Chiso Corporation

0:39:30.719 --> 0:39:34.319
<v Speaker 2>changed the co catalyst in this reaction to ferric sulfide,

0:39:34.719 --> 0:39:37.400
<v Speaker 2>which led to the production of mercury waste, which was

0:39:37.520 --> 0:39:42.799
<v Speaker 2>much more readily transformed into methyl mercury when it was

0:39:42.880 --> 0:39:45.960
<v Speaker 2>dumped into the sea next to Minamata, where there were

0:39:46.080 --> 0:39:49.000
<v Speaker 2>lots of bacteria to take up that mercury and turn

0:39:49.080 --> 0:39:54.800
<v Speaker 2>it into methyl mercury. And so, like you talked about aaron,

0:39:55.120 --> 0:39:58.560
<v Speaker 2>methylmercury is an organic compound, so it can be readily

0:39:58.560 --> 0:40:01.839
<v Speaker 2>absorbed by plants and animal and so all of this

0:40:01.960 --> 0:40:06.000
<v Speaker 2>mercury waste that was being unloaded into the water wasn't

0:40:06.040 --> 0:40:09.560
<v Speaker 2>sitting harmlessly on the seafloor. It was being immediately turned

0:40:09.560 --> 0:40:12.359
<v Speaker 2>into methyl mercury and then taken up by plants, and

0:40:12.400 --> 0:40:14.960
<v Speaker 2>then the plants were eaten by fish and then bigger fish,

0:40:15.120 --> 0:40:19.279
<v Speaker 2>and it's the classic story of bioaccumulation. Right If you

0:40:19.320 --> 0:40:21.600
<v Speaker 2>were living in Minamata in the nineteen forties, in the

0:40:21.640 --> 0:40:25.759
<v Speaker 2>nineteen fifties, if you weren't working at Chiso, there was

0:40:25.800 --> 0:40:29.480
<v Speaker 2>a pretty good chance that you either fished or farmed

0:40:29.560 --> 0:40:33.160
<v Speaker 2>for a living. And no matter where you worked, there

0:40:33.200 --> 0:40:36.080
<v Speaker 2>was an even better chance that locally caught fish and

0:40:36.120 --> 0:40:41.400
<v Speaker 2>shellfish and seaweed constituted a pretty substantial portion of your diet.

0:40:42.320 --> 0:40:46.080
<v Speaker 2>And so as this toxic mercury continued to be dumped

0:40:46.120 --> 0:40:50.399
<v Speaker 2>into the sea outside Minamata and then be transformed into

0:40:50.440 --> 0:40:53.640
<v Speaker 2>methyl mercury and accumulate in the plants and fish living

0:40:53.680 --> 0:40:56.239
<v Speaker 2>in it, it of course found its way into the

0:40:56.280 --> 0:41:01.400
<v Speaker 2>diet of the residence of Minamata. There Signs that anything

0:41:01.520 --> 0:41:06.839
<v Speaker 2>was wrong came pretty early on, right around nineteen fifty one.

0:41:06.960 --> 0:41:10.080
<v Speaker 2>Some fish seemed to be just floating in the bay

0:41:10.400 --> 0:41:14.840
<v Speaker 2>and could be easily caught by hand. Barnacles stopped appearing

0:41:14.880 --> 0:41:18.560
<v Speaker 2>on boats near the factory dumping grounds, and seaweed began

0:41:18.600 --> 0:41:22.160
<v Speaker 2>to float to the surface. Its color appeared to be fading,

0:41:22.239 --> 0:41:27.880
<v Speaker 2>and its roots became more brittle birds, especially crows, began

0:41:27.960 --> 0:41:31.480
<v Speaker 2>to fall from the sky, crashing into the sea or

0:41:31.520 --> 0:41:35.480
<v Speaker 2>the ground dead, and you could snatch a seabird easily,

0:41:35.680 --> 0:41:40.000
<v Speaker 2>just like with your bare hands. That's not good, no,

0:41:40.560 --> 0:41:44.879
<v Speaker 2>And by nineteen fifty three things had gotten worse. More

0:41:44.960 --> 0:41:48.560
<v Speaker 2>fish began acting strange, swimming in a bizarre way in

0:41:48.600 --> 0:41:53.480
<v Speaker 2>the thick, greasy, stinking patches of water outside the factory

0:41:53.840 --> 0:41:57.240
<v Speaker 2>that people compared to like turning the sea into a swamp.

0:41:57.280 --> 0:42:02.120
<v Speaker 2>It was so thick. People were finding their nets emptier

0:42:02.160 --> 0:42:06.520
<v Speaker 2>and emptier. Seaweed began to disappear, and you couldn't find

0:42:06.520 --> 0:42:11.400
<v Speaker 2>shellfish anywhere close to the shore. But the most noticeable change,

0:42:11.560 --> 0:42:14.680
<v Speaker 2>the thing that would really kind of sound the warning bells,

0:42:15.080 --> 0:42:19.480
<v Speaker 2>was the cats of Minamata. People had started noticing that

0:42:19.520 --> 0:42:23.920
<v Speaker 2>their cats had trouble moving. They seemed super uncoordinated. They

0:42:23.920 --> 0:42:28.560
<v Speaker 2>would suffer convulsions, they salivated profusely, and they would bring

0:42:28.600 --> 0:42:31.799
<v Speaker 2>their noses close to the ground, almost looking like they

0:42:31.800 --> 0:42:34.359
<v Speaker 2>were trying to do a headstand by kicking their back

0:42:34.440 --> 0:42:39.160
<v Speaker 2>legs up. They ran round and round, running into rocks

0:42:39.280 --> 0:42:43.120
<v Speaker 2>or trees, with many just jumping into the sea and drowning.

0:42:44.120 --> 0:42:48.920
<v Speaker 2>Soon there were nearly no more cats left in the area, like,

0:42:49.320 --> 0:42:53.160
<v Speaker 2>for example, in nineteen fifty four, in one hamlet, one

0:42:53.239 --> 0:42:56.240
<v Speaker 2>hundred of the one hundred and twenty cats died within

0:42:56.400 --> 0:43:03.480
<v Speaker 2>two months. What Yeah, The loss of cats was devastating, obviously,

0:43:03.560 --> 0:43:06.520
<v Speaker 2>not just because they were pets, but because cats also

0:43:06.640 --> 0:43:10.680
<v Speaker 2>performed an invaluable service by killing mice and rats who

0:43:10.760 --> 0:43:14.600
<v Speaker 2>would damage fishing nets by chewing through them. And so

0:43:14.680 --> 0:43:17.040
<v Speaker 2>when all the cats started to die, the mice and

0:43:17.160 --> 0:43:21.400
<v Speaker 2>rat populations exploded, making it impossible to keep a fishing

0:43:21.440 --> 0:43:25.480
<v Speaker 2>net intact. But it didn't even matter because there were

0:43:25.800 --> 0:43:29.880
<v Speaker 2>almost no fish to even fill these nets with. Between

0:43:29.960 --> 0:43:33.239
<v Speaker 2>nineteen fifty three and nineteen fifty five, fish catches went

0:43:33.320 --> 0:43:37.600
<v Speaker 2>from four hundred and ninety thousand kilograms a year to

0:43:37.800 --> 0:43:40.239
<v Speaker 2>about a third of that one hundred and eighty three

0:43:40.520 --> 0:43:41.439
<v Speaker 2>kilograms a year.

0:43:42.000 --> 0:43:42.320
<v Speaker 1>Whoa.

0:43:42.880 --> 0:43:45.400
<v Speaker 2>But it wasn't just the fish and the birds and

0:43:45.440 --> 0:43:48.960
<v Speaker 2>the seaweed and the cats that had started showing worrying changes.

0:43:49.680 --> 0:43:54.439
<v Speaker 2>It was also the residence of minamata. Several people began

0:43:54.520 --> 0:43:59.239
<v Speaker 2>developing problems walking or talking, or getting numbnus or in

0:43:59.280 --> 0:44:03.759
<v Speaker 2>their fingertips or shaking in their limbs, Tunnel vision and

0:44:03.840 --> 0:44:06.759
<v Speaker 2>they went to the hospital to receive a diagnosis of

0:44:06.800 --> 0:44:12.520
<v Speaker 2>anything ranging from Japanese encephalitis to alcoholism, anything other than

0:44:12.560 --> 0:44:16.799
<v Speaker 2>mercury poisoning before many of them died. But it took

0:44:16.880 --> 0:44:20.239
<v Speaker 2>a few years of this before anyone recognized that what

0:44:20.320 --> 0:44:24.920
<v Speaker 2>they had on their hands was not some Japanese encephalitis

0:44:25.400 --> 0:44:29.920
<v Speaker 2>or whatever, it was an outbreak of an unknown, debilitating

0:44:30.040 --> 0:44:36.800
<v Speaker 2>and often deadly disease. In nineteen fifty six, two young girls,

0:44:36.880 --> 0:44:40.240
<v Speaker 2>sisters were brought to the hospital by their mother after

0:44:40.280 --> 0:44:43.919
<v Speaker 2>they began showing trouble walking and talking, and the mother

0:44:43.960 --> 0:44:46.520
<v Speaker 2>of the girls told the doctors that their neighbor, who

0:44:46.600 --> 0:44:50.960
<v Speaker 2>was another young girl, had also been showing the same symptoms,

0:44:51.400 --> 0:44:53.960
<v Speaker 2>and so the doctors went to investigate, and they found

0:44:54.040 --> 0:44:57.040
<v Speaker 2>that they actually had at least eight people with these

0:44:57.120 --> 0:45:00.279
<v Speaker 2>same symptoms with the same disease, which was an enough

0:45:00.280 --> 0:45:03.760
<v Speaker 2>for them to declare to the Public Health office that quote,

0:45:03.840 --> 0:45:06.440
<v Speaker 2>this is an epidemic of an unknown disease of the

0:45:06.520 --> 0:45:11.680
<v Speaker 2>central nervous system. And not long after this declaration, more

0:45:11.760 --> 0:45:18.080
<v Speaker 2>cases started appearing, with some families entirely affected. But there

0:45:18.200 --> 0:45:21.880
<v Speaker 2>was such a stigma surrounding it that people stayed behind

0:45:21.920 --> 0:45:26.080
<v Speaker 2>doors as their neighbors shunned them. For some people, the

0:45:26.120 --> 0:45:30.799
<v Speaker 2>disease came on rapidly. A strong, healthy fisherman yesterday woke

0:45:30.880 --> 0:45:33.399
<v Speaker 2>up today unable to stand on the boat and cast

0:45:33.480 --> 0:45:36.560
<v Speaker 2>his net. Soon he would be in the hospital, suffering

0:45:36.560 --> 0:45:40.040
<v Speaker 2>from convulsions and bloody fingertips as he rips off his

0:45:40.160 --> 0:45:45.480
<v Speaker 2>nails by scratching at the walls. Horrifying and terrifying don't

0:45:45.520 --> 0:45:49.640
<v Speaker 2>even begin to cover it, and you can imagine how

0:45:49.719 --> 0:45:54.120
<v Speaker 2>neighbors and friends and family nervously watched for signs of

0:45:54.160 --> 0:45:59.120
<v Speaker 2>the disease in themselves. Probably May first, nineteen fifty six

0:45:59.400 --> 0:46:02.760
<v Speaker 2>marks the day when the mysterious disease affecting the residence

0:46:02.800 --> 0:46:07.600
<v Speaker 2>of Minamata was officially discovered, But the doctors didn't yet

0:46:07.640 --> 0:46:10.520
<v Speaker 2>know what the disease was or what was causing it,

0:46:10.560 --> 0:46:13.120
<v Speaker 2>which meant that they could do nothing to prevent it.

0:46:14.000 --> 0:46:16.480
<v Speaker 2>City authorities went to the homes of people who had

0:46:16.520 --> 0:46:19.160
<v Speaker 2>come down with this disease, and they ordered them out,

0:46:19.400 --> 0:46:23.279
<v Speaker 2>forcing some into isolation so that they could disinfect like

0:46:23.400 --> 0:46:27.480
<v Speaker 2>spray the entire house, which only furthered the fear and

0:46:27.560 --> 0:46:32.239
<v Speaker 2>stigma associated with it. After interviewing the patients, many of

0:46:32.280 --> 0:46:35.480
<v Speaker 2>which were from fishing families. The people in charge of

0:46:35.520 --> 0:46:38.440
<v Speaker 2>the investigation came to the conclusion that it was likely

0:46:38.520 --> 0:46:43.000
<v Speaker 2>something from the seawater, but they weren't sure exactly what

0:46:43.080 --> 0:46:48.840
<v Speaker 2>it was, although immediately several heavy metals were proposed, but

0:46:48.920 --> 0:46:52.520
<v Speaker 2>these surveys tended to be super focused, which kind of

0:46:53.120 --> 0:46:57.799
<v Speaker 2>led to this picture of Minimata disease as just one thing,

0:46:58.320 --> 0:47:02.760
<v Speaker 2>like the most extreme case, and it overlooked the people

0:47:02.760 --> 0:47:06.880
<v Speaker 2>who had less severe symptoms, which ultimately meant that they

0:47:06.920 --> 0:47:10.560
<v Speaker 2>weren't recognizing the extent of the exposure, both in terms

0:47:10.560 --> 0:47:14.440
<v Speaker 2>of like the number of people impacted and like the

0:47:14.480 --> 0:47:18.399
<v Speaker 2>scope of disease symptoms, but also how widespread it could

0:47:18.400 --> 0:47:24.320
<v Speaker 2>be geographically. But it's also not as though narrowing down

0:47:24.360 --> 0:47:28.960
<v Speaker 2>the cause was like super duper easy. The Chiesau Corporation

0:47:29.160 --> 0:47:32.520
<v Speaker 2>was dumping a lot of chemical waste into Minimata Bay,

0:47:32.920 --> 0:47:35.280
<v Speaker 2>and so trying to figure out which of the possible

0:47:35.360 --> 0:47:37.359
<v Speaker 2>I think at the beginning of the investigation there were

0:47:37.360 --> 0:47:41.960
<v Speaker 2>like sixty four possible poisons proposed, and so figuring out

0:47:41.960 --> 0:47:45.680
<v Speaker 2>which one of those was causing the symptoms wasn't necessarily

0:47:45.719 --> 0:47:50.320
<v Speaker 2>this easy thing to do, and the factory certainly didn't

0:47:50.320 --> 0:47:53.840
<v Speaker 2>help narrow down things. In one of the books I

0:47:53.920 --> 0:47:56.880
<v Speaker 2>read for this, the author describes a four stage model

0:47:57.000 --> 0:48:01.440
<v Speaker 2>for all pollution events. First, people become aware of the

0:48:01.480 --> 0:48:06.560
<v Speaker 2>problem in Minamata. This happened in May nineteen fifty six. Second,

0:48:06.920 --> 0:48:09.680
<v Speaker 2>they begin to search for the cause, which does take

0:48:09.760 --> 0:48:15.520
<v Speaker 2>some time usually. Third, the polluter proposes or supports alternative

0:48:15.560 --> 0:48:19.920
<v Speaker 2>theories to draw attention and responsibility away from themselves. Okay,

0:48:20.600 --> 0:48:23.399
<v Speaker 2>and so then the public becomes confused as to who

0:48:23.440 --> 0:48:28.719
<v Speaker 2>to believe. Fourth, all of these theories or hypotheses compete

0:48:28.760 --> 0:48:33.040
<v Speaker 2>with and then neutralize each other, so that still no

0:48:33.080 --> 0:48:33.680
<v Speaker 2>one knows what.

0:48:33.719 --> 0:48:35.840
<v Speaker 1>To believe, oh gosh.

0:48:36.040 --> 0:48:40.160
<v Speaker 2>And so whenever mercury was proposed, the Chiso Corporation was

0:48:40.200 --> 0:48:43.720
<v Speaker 2>there to say, no, we actually think it's red tide,

0:48:44.000 --> 0:48:48.520
<v Speaker 2>or no, we don't dump any mercury at all, it's impossible,

0:48:49.360 --> 0:48:55.759
<v Speaker 2>or no, it's actually mercury from the agriculture whatever. And

0:48:55.800 --> 0:49:00.000
<v Speaker 2>they also directly tried to prevent research linking the disease

0:49:00.120 --> 0:49:02.239
<v Speaker 2>is to the waste that they dumped into the sea,

0:49:02.680 --> 0:49:05.240
<v Speaker 2>like in one instance, they bought up all the fish

0:49:05.280 --> 0:49:08.840
<v Speaker 2>in the markets so that a researcher from the NIH

0:49:08.960 --> 0:49:14.160
<v Speaker 2>in the US couldn't take any back to conduct research.

0:49:14.200 --> 0:49:15.840
<v Speaker 1>On Oh jeez.

0:49:16.160 --> 0:49:20.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And in nineteen fifty eight they changed the dump

0:49:20.280 --> 0:49:24.360
<v Speaker 2>site from Minamata Bay from the sea to the river

0:49:24.760 --> 0:49:27.520
<v Speaker 2>to try to mislead the investigations that were going on

0:49:27.560 --> 0:49:30.880
<v Speaker 2>at the sea dump site, which actually led to only

0:49:30.960 --> 0:49:34.640
<v Speaker 2>more widespread exposure because people started showing up with Minamata

0:49:34.719 --> 0:49:36.360
<v Speaker 2>disease like farther away.

0:49:36.680 --> 0:49:40.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, if anything, that's just going to like show more support.

0:49:40.680 --> 0:49:42.680
<v Speaker 1>Like if you move your dump site, then you're gonna

0:49:42.719 --> 0:49:44.719
<v Speaker 1>move where people get sick. Yeah, people are going to

0:49:44.760 --> 0:49:46.919
<v Speaker 1>get sick in your new dump site. I mean, good

0:49:47.000 --> 0:49:48.600
<v Speaker 1>forethought on that, right.

0:49:48.320 --> 0:49:50.680
<v Speaker 2>But like if there were forethought, then maybe there would

0:49:50.680 --> 0:49:52.840
<v Speaker 2>have been no methyl mercury poisoning in the first place.

0:49:53.239 --> 0:49:56.680
<v Speaker 2>What a concept, Darin, What a concept. But one of

0:49:56.760 --> 0:50:00.719
<v Speaker 2>the most egregious things they did was they hid the

0:50:00.760 --> 0:50:05.640
<v Speaker 2>results of experiments that the Chiso Hospital doctor had done

0:50:05.960 --> 0:50:09.440
<v Speaker 2>which conclusively showed that they were responsible for the waste.

0:50:10.040 --> 0:50:15.200
<v Speaker 2>So he was feeding cats like different waste. And then

0:50:15.239 --> 0:50:19.439
<v Speaker 2>there was this like infamous cat number four hundred who

0:50:19.560 --> 0:50:23.760
<v Speaker 2>developed symptoms of minimaunta disease after being fed waste from

0:50:24.000 --> 0:50:29.320
<v Speaker 2>the acid aldehyde process. But when he brought these results

0:50:29.360 --> 0:50:32.279
<v Speaker 2>to the company, the company ordered the results to be

0:50:32.440 --> 0:50:35.840
<v Speaker 2>destroyed or hidden and they stopped and they said, no

0:50:35.960 --> 0:50:38.839
<v Speaker 2>more experiments. You will not have access to any more

0:50:38.920 --> 0:50:40.960
<v Speaker 2>of this acid aldehyde waste.

0:50:42.560 --> 0:50:42.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:50:43.480 --> 0:50:49.160
<v Speaker 2>But despite Chiso Corporation's best efforts, starting in nineteen fifty nine,

0:50:49.400 --> 0:50:53.680
<v Speaker 2>methyl mercury produced as a result of this acid aldehyde

0:50:54.320 --> 0:50:59.959
<v Speaker 2>production was finally pinpointed as the cause. Mercury was found

0:51:00.200 --> 0:51:03.000
<v Speaker 2>in the waste that they produced. It was found in

0:51:03.040 --> 0:51:06.359
<v Speaker 2>the seafood in Minamata. That seafood was found to cause

0:51:06.400 --> 0:51:09.640
<v Speaker 2>symptoms and cats and experiments, and it was found in

0:51:09.680 --> 0:51:14.200
<v Speaker 2>the people suffering from the disease. The researchers who tested

0:51:14.560 --> 0:51:19.080
<v Speaker 2>water or hair for mercury made measurement after measurement. They

0:51:19.080 --> 0:51:21.160
<v Speaker 2>were like, there's no way that these numbers can be

0:51:21.239 --> 0:51:23.480
<v Speaker 2>right because they're off the charts.

0:51:23.880 --> 0:51:24.040
<v Speaker 1>Yea.

0:51:24.520 --> 0:51:27.040
<v Speaker 2>The amount of mercury near the factory waste outlet was

0:51:27.080 --> 0:51:31.240
<v Speaker 2>found to be two thousand over two thousand parts per million.

0:51:32.080 --> 0:51:37.840
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, that's two kilograms per ton, which is twice

0:51:37.880 --> 0:51:41.640
<v Speaker 2>the amount needed for a mercury mine. That were you

0:51:41.800 --> 0:51:43.480
<v Speaker 2>specifically mine for mercury.

0:51:43.800 --> 0:51:49.319
<v Speaker 1>And so the thing is because of bioaccumulation. Even very

0:51:49.400 --> 0:51:53.480
<v Speaker 1>low levels of mercury in the environment can lead to

0:51:53.640 --> 0:51:56.879
<v Speaker 1>very high levels in fish. So having that high of

0:51:56.960 --> 0:52:00.520
<v Speaker 1>levels in the environment is tearrifying.

0:52:00.800 --> 0:52:05.080
<v Speaker 2>It is yep. Yeah, And there was so much mercury

0:52:05.080 --> 0:52:08.520
<v Speaker 2>that they actually ended up establishing like a subsidiary to

0:52:08.680 --> 0:52:11.480
<v Speaker 2>reclaim the mercury in the waist because it was valuable.

0:52:12.600 --> 0:52:16.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh uh huh. Hundreds of people are found to have

0:52:16.480 --> 0:52:19.640
<v Speaker 2>greater than fifty parts per million in their hair, which

0:52:19.680 --> 0:52:23.000
<v Speaker 2>is the level at which like neurological symptoms can develop,

0:52:23.960 --> 0:52:27.040
<v Speaker 2>and one woman was found to have nine hundred and

0:52:27.120 --> 0:52:34.479
<v Speaker 2>twenty parts per million. Oh dear, yep. And you might think,

0:52:34.719 --> 0:52:37.800
<v Speaker 2>or at least hope that given these solid links between

0:52:37.840 --> 0:52:41.359
<v Speaker 2>acid aldehyde waste and minimata disease, there would be some

0:52:41.400 --> 0:52:44.399
<v Speaker 2>sort of acknowledgment or attempt to write the wrongs by

0:52:44.440 --> 0:52:48.680
<v Speaker 2>the Chisou Corporation. But also, if you're a listener of

0:52:48.680 --> 0:52:52.120
<v Speaker 2>this podcast, you know that history is full of disappointing,

0:52:53.440 --> 0:52:58.000
<v Speaker 2>to say the least, people and corporations, and this is

0:52:58.080 --> 0:53:02.160
<v Speaker 2>one of them. It really just feels like these it's

0:53:02.200 --> 0:53:06.239
<v Speaker 2>really hard to wrap your brain around because when I

0:53:06.280 --> 0:53:08.759
<v Speaker 2>was doing this, I was reminded of well, many of

0:53:08.800 --> 0:53:12.239
<v Speaker 2>the things that we've talked about, but I think in

0:53:12.280 --> 0:53:19.160
<v Speaker 2>particular the litamide and the knowing, like the solid links

0:53:19.280 --> 0:53:24.120
<v Speaker 2>the knowing, and then the refusal, denial, denial, like to

0:53:24.200 --> 0:53:24.799
<v Speaker 2>what end?

0:53:25.160 --> 0:53:29.480
<v Speaker 1>To what end? I just I do not comprehend.

0:53:29.760 --> 0:53:33.239
<v Speaker 2>I know, I don't know how you can have a conscience,

0:53:33.400 --> 0:53:35.799
<v Speaker 2>a soul and make these decisions.

0:53:36.120 --> 0:53:38.239
<v Speaker 1>Ever again, yeah I don't.

0:53:38.600 --> 0:53:44.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah. But the Chiesa Corporation took great issue with

0:53:44.880 --> 0:53:47.839
<v Speaker 2>these findings and they continued to try to undermine them.

0:53:47.960 --> 0:53:51.880
<v Speaker 2>They produced pamphlets to discredit the findings and the university

0:53:51.960 --> 0:53:55.200
<v Speaker 2>researchers who had compiled them saying they were like, oh, well,

0:53:55.280 --> 0:53:58.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, they're not qualified for their jobs. And the

0:53:58.560 --> 0:54:01.920
<v Speaker 2>sad thing is Chiso had a lot of the residents

0:54:02.000 --> 0:54:05.400
<v Speaker 2>of Minamata on their side, along with the local and

0:54:05.440 --> 0:54:09.520
<v Speaker 2>regional government. The factory had been seen by many as

0:54:09.560 --> 0:54:14.160
<v Speaker 2>the town's economic savior, especially in like the years following

0:54:14.200 --> 0:54:18.960
<v Speaker 2>World War Two during the economic recovery period, and about

0:54:19.040 --> 0:54:22.439
<v Speaker 2>twenty five percent of the jobs in the town were

0:54:22.520 --> 0:54:25.680
<v Speaker 2>somehow linked to Chiso or to Chiso in like their

0:54:25.719 --> 0:54:30.840
<v Speaker 2>different subsidiaries. And in the face of these like links,

0:54:30.920 --> 0:54:36.520
<v Speaker 2>between Minamata disease and the factory waste. The corporation kept

0:54:36.560 --> 0:54:39.239
<v Speaker 2>making these subtle threats to like, oh, we're going to

0:54:39.320 --> 0:54:42.239
<v Speaker 2>shut down and move somewhere else if people don't drop

0:54:42.280 --> 0:54:45.080
<v Speaker 2>their complaints, Like this is proving to be very problematic

0:54:45.120 --> 0:54:49.120
<v Speaker 2>for us. But it wasn't just the people affected by

0:54:49.120 --> 0:54:52.799
<v Speaker 2>methyl mercury poisoning that had issues with Chiso. It was

0:54:52.840 --> 0:54:55.880
<v Speaker 2>also the fishing co ops who had all but lost

0:54:55.880 --> 0:54:59.840
<v Speaker 2>their source of income as fish populations declined something like

0:55:00.120 --> 0:55:05.040
<v Speaker 2>ninety percent over the nineteen fifties. Yeah, and also the

0:55:05.080 --> 0:55:09.160
<v Speaker 2>sale but not the catching of fish from Minamata was banned,

0:55:09.680 --> 0:55:11.640
<v Speaker 2>so like you could still catch fish, but like to

0:55:11.760 --> 0:55:15.600
<v Speaker 2>what end, because if they well, because what would happen

0:55:15.680 --> 0:55:18.480
<v Speaker 2>is that if they banned the actual fishing itself, then

0:55:18.600 --> 0:55:21.520
<v Speaker 2>Chiso would have to pay more because it would be

0:55:21.560 --> 0:55:26.560
<v Speaker 2>have to show that they took the livelihoods anyway. And

0:55:26.640 --> 0:55:30.640
<v Speaker 2>so these fishing co ops also demanded recognition and compensation

0:55:30.800 --> 0:55:34.440
<v Speaker 2>from Chiso, but the public kind of turned against them

0:55:34.960 --> 0:55:37.919
<v Speaker 2>after there were some riots or some like sit ins

0:55:37.920 --> 0:55:42.680
<v Speaker 2>that turned violent, and this had the effect of also

0:55:42.760 --> 0:55:47.000
<v Speaker 2>stigmatizing the people with this metal mercury poisoning who were

0:55:47.040 --> 0:55:53.640
<v Speaker 2>either ignored or harassed for fighting chiso. Finally, though, at

0:55:53.640 --> 0:55:56.919
<v Speaker 2>the end of nineteen fifty nine, the fishing cooperatives and

0:55:57.080 --> 0:56:01.200
<v Speaker 2>the people with minamata disease one small vicaries as she so,

0:56:01.440 --> 0:56:06.480
<v Speaker 2>finally made some payments. They did not, however, take responsibility

0:56:06.520 --> 0:56:09.440
<v Speaker 2>for the poisoning. They just said, oh no, these payments

0:56:09.480 --> 0:56:13.959
<v Speaker 2>are like a charitable gift from a caring neighbor. Yeah,

0:56:14.440 --> 0:56:19.160
<v Speaker 2>oh gosh, and these gifts showed how much the company

0:56:19.200 --> 0:56:20.879
<v Speaker 2>believed a life was worth.

0:56:21.560 --> 0:56:21.960
<v Speaker 1>Oh no.

0:56:22.280 --> 0:56:25.919
<v Speaker 2>They agreed to pay adults one hundred thousand yen, which

0:56:26.080 --> 0:56:29.640
<v Speaker 2>was two hundred and seventy eight dollars per year, and

0:56:29.880 --> 0:56:34.840
<v Speaker 2>children thirty thousand yen per year eighty three dollars and

0:56:35.360 --> 0:56:39.719
<v Speaker 2>twenty thousand yen or fifty six dollars in funeral expenses,

0:56:41.040 --> 0:56:45.000
<v Speaker 2>but they required a certification committee to decide who would

0:56:45.040 --> 0:56:49.759
<v Speaker 2>be eligible for the money, and the company asked to

0:56:49.800 --> 0:56:53.560
<v Speaker 2>include a clause where quote even if in the future

0:56:53.600 --> 0:56:56.640
<v Speaker 2>it is determined that the cause of minimata disease is

0:56:56.680 --> 0:57:00.719
<v Speaker 2>the factory's waste water, the patients will make absolutely no

0:57:01.080 --> 0:57:03.320
<v Speaker 2>further demands for compensation money.

0:57:03.960 --> 0:57:05.560
<v Speaker 1>What m hmm.

0:57:07.280 --> 0:57:13.319
<v Speaker 2>Beyond the pale I mean, I don't. Yeah, And they

0:57:13.360 --> 0:57:16.680
<v Speaker 2>also made small payments to these fishing co ops and

0:57:17.040 --> 0:57:22.520
<v Speaker 2>they importantly they're like big you know, public image thing

0:57:22.680 --> 0:57:26.240
<v Speaker 2>was they built this pollution control center which was supposed

0:57:26.280 --> 0:57:29.240
<v Speaker 2>to remove the mercury from the waste that they produced.

0:57:30.280 --> 0:57:33.760
<v Speaker 2>It did not like not at all. It was just

0:57:33.920 --> 0:57:34.400
<v Speaker 2>for show.

0:57:35.120 --> 0:57:38.880
<v Speaker 1>What Yeah, what's the point, Aaron.

0:57:40.200 --> 0:57:43.080
<v Speaker 2>This was the cost of progress in their eyes. I think,

0:57:43.560 --> 0:57:48.040
<v Speaker 2>I don't know at this point in time. So nineteen

0:57:48.080 --> 0:57:51.520
<v Speaker 2>fifty nine, the number of people with confirmed minimata disease

0:57:51.720 --> 0:57:55.479
<v Speaker 2>was in the dozens, but the next ten years would

0:57:55.520 --> 0:57:58.520
<v Speaker 2>show just how tiny the tip of the iceberg that was.

0:58:00.080 --> 0:58:03.160
<v Speaker 2>After the so called sympathy payments in nineteen fifty nine,

0:58:04.000 --> 0:58:07.440
<v Speaker 2>I think that the Chiesa corporation thought, or at least hoped,

0:58:07.480 --> 0:58:10.040
<v Speaker 2>that the people affected by the mercury poisoning would just

0:58:10.280 --> 0:58:13.200
<v Speaker 2>shut up, take that tiny bit of money, and just go.

0:58:13.920 --> 0:58:17.040
<v Speaker 2>But they didn't. This decade from nineteen fifty nine to

0:58:17.160 --> 0:58:21.040
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty eight is sometimes called the decade of silence

0:58:21.280 --> 0:58:24.520
<v Speaker 2>or the decade of isolation in the history of Minamata disease,

0:58:25.080 --> 0:58:29.880
<v Speaker 2>but that's kind of a mischaracterization. If there was silence

0:58:29.920 --> 0:58:33.040
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't from the people who were suffering from the disease.

0:58:33.680 --> 0:58:37.760
<v Speaker 2>It was from the government or the Chiesa corporation, and

0:58:38.040 --> 0:58:43.200
<v Speaker 2>also from many of the non affected citizens willfully ignoring

0:58:43.280 --> 0:58:48.840
<v Speaker 2>this massive environmental disaster. But no matter how much they

0:58:48.880 --> 0:58:52.360
<v Speaker 2>closed their eyes or plug their ears, the problem wouldn't

0:58:52.600 --> 0:58:56.520
<v Speaker 2>just go away. Even though the payments had been made

0:58:56.600 --> 0:59:00.520
<v Speaker 2>and the ridiculous waste cleanup program had been constructed and

0:59:01.040 --> 0:59:04.280
<v Speaker 2>no one was eating fish anymore, the disease itself didn't

0:59:04.280 --> 0:59:08.360
<v Speaker 2>go away. It appeared to be spreading, and part of

0:59:08.400 --> 0:59:12.000
<v Speaker 2>this was when doctors began to recognize congenital cases of

0:59:12.040 --> 0:59:16.880
<v Speaker 2>minimata disease in the early nineteen sixties. Since the early

0:59:16.960 --> 0:59:21.120
<v Speaker 2>nineteen fifties and into the nineteen sixties, rates of miscarriages,

0:59:21.200 --> 0:59:26.840
<v Speaker 2>of stillbirths, diagnoses of cerebral palsy, and other congenital defects

0:59:26.920 --> 0:59:31.280
<v Speaker 2>had soared through the roof. For example, the normal background

0:59:31.400 --> 0:59:34.680
<v Speaker 2>rate of cerebral palsy was estimated to be about zero

0:59:34.680 --> 0:59:39.200
<v Speaker 2>point two two point six percent, but in affected areas

0:59:39.840 --> 0:59:42.960
<v Speaker 2>that had gone up to seven point four to six percent.

0:59:44.280 --> 0:59:51.120
<v Speaker 2>What uh huh uh huh. Yeah. Doctors began to suspect

0:59:51.200 --> 0:59:54.320
<v Speaker 2>that these children had been poisoned by mercury in utero

0:59:54.800 --> 0:59:59.160
<v Speaker 2>and hair samples, breast milk samples, and umbilical cord samples

0:59:59.280 --> 1:00:04.320
<v Speaker 2>all supported. Another fight then happened to get these congenital

1:00:04.360 --> 1:00:08.760
<v Speaker 2>cases of Minamata disease to be recognized, and eventually they were,

1:00:08.960 --> 1:00:13.800
<v Speaker 2>but again only for those tiny payments. But throughout the

1:00:13.880 --> 1:00:17.240
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixties, other things were happening on a national scale

1:00:17.240 --> 1:00:19.320
<v Speaker 2>that would help turn the tide for the people with

1:00:19.400 --> 1:00:23.920
<v Speaker 2>Minamata disease. So, like I said in the nineteen fifties,

1:00:24.040 --> 1:00:27.080
<v Speaker 2>especially once she'sa the corporation's role in the poisoning was

1:00:27.080 --> 1:00:31.200
<v Speaker 2>made clear. The victims of the mercury poisoning didn't receive

1:00:31.240 --> 1:00:36.200
<v Speaker 2>a whole lot of public sympathy. But in the nineteen sixties,

1:00:36.560 --> 1:00:41.160
<v Speaker 2>three other major pollution cases had come to light. Air

1:00:41.200 --> 1:00:45.720
<v Speaker 2>pollution in Yokaichi City leading to a lot of asthma

1:00:46.240 --> 1:00:52.160
<v Speaker 2>cadmium poisoning in Toyama Prefecture, and the second Minimata disease

1:00:52.440 --> 1:00:56.080
<v Speaker 2>in Nigata Prefecture north of Tokyo. So it was like

1:00:56.240 --> 1:01:00.120
<v Speaker 2>basically Minamata take two from another factory, also leading to

1:01:00.160 --> 1:01:05.480
<v Speaker 2>metal mercury poisoning. These three, along with the brickery poisoning

1:01:05.520 --> 1:01:10.640
<v Speaker 2>in Minamata are called the Big four pollution cases, and

1:01:10.760 --> 1:01:14.040
<v Speaker 2>several lawsuits had already begun for the other three through

1:01:14.080 --> 1:01:16.720
<v Speaker 2>in the nineteen sixties, which then gave hope to the

1:01:16.760 --> 1:01:20.160
<v Speaker 2>people affected by Minimata disease that maybe they could finally

1:01:20.200 --> 1:01:24.560
<v Speaker 2>get some small piece of justice. And in nineteen sixty eight,

1:01:24.680 --> 1:01:28.520
<v Speaker 2>the government announced their official findings that the Chiso Corporation

1:01:29.360 --> 1:01:33.640
<v Speaker 2>was responsible for producing the waste that led to widespread

1:01:33.760 --> 1:01:38.840
<v Speaker 2>metal mercury poisoning in and around Minamata. And it was

1:01:39.000 --> 1:01:43.640
<v Speaker 2>only in this same year, in nineteen sixty eight, twelve

1:01:43.720 --> 1:01:48.800
<v Speaker 2>years after the disease was first recognized, that the Chiso

1:01:48.920 --> 1:01:56.520
<v Speaker 2>Corporation finally stopped dumping mercury into the sea outside Minamata.

1:01:56.800 --> 1:01:59.600
<v Speaker 2>They did it for twelve years.

1:02:00.280 --> 1:02:04.680
<v Speaker 3>They continued to pay people right, but said, oh, we

1:02:04.720 --> 1:02:09.240
<v Speaker 3>put this pollution cleaner upper and so, if and so,

1:02:09.600 --> 1:02:13.480
<v Speaker 3>there could not possibly be a case after nineteen sixty

1:02:13.600 --> 1:02:15.440
<v Speaker 3>once we built this thing.

1:02:18.800 --> 1:02:25.080
<v Speaker 2>Aaron. Uh huh. As twelve years of knowingly poisoning human

1:02:25.160 --> 1:02:32.880
<v Speaker 2>beings like that was the price of progress. I it's

1:02:33.160 --> 1:02:35.400
<v Speaker 2>very hard.

1:02:36.280 --> 1:02:37.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

1:02:38.000 --> 1:02:43.880
<v Speaker 2>These sympathy payments were not seen as like accountability or responsibility.

1:02:44.080 --> 1:02:47.160
<v Speaker 2>They were just damage control, like how much money do

1:02:47.200 --> 1:02:49.080
<v Speaker 2>we need to throw at this? What's the least amount

1:02:49.080 --> 1:02:50.760
<v Speaker 2>of money we can throw at this to make the

1:02:50.800 --> 1:02:51.680
<v Speaker 2>problem go away?

1:02:51.880 --> 1:02:53.800
<v Speaker 1>Right? That's I feel like what it always is.

1:02:55.280 --> 1:02:58.640
<v Speaker 2>And the people impacted by the disease were not going

1:02:58.680 --> 1:03:02.120
<v Speaker 2>to accept that anymore. With these other pollution events and

1:03:02.160 --> 1:03:07.120
<v Speaker 2>the incredible grassroots work done by people such as Ishimurdre Michiko,

1:03:07.240 --> 1:03:10.520
<v Speaker 2>who's the person who wrote the book Paradise in the

1:03:10.560 --> 1:03:15.240
<v Speaker 2>Say of Sorrow, which is, by the way, one of

1:03:15.280 --> 1:03:19.040
<v Speaker 2>the best books I've ever read. I think like it

1:03:19.160 --> 1:03:24.160
<v Speaker 2>was absolutely her writings are so beautiful and so impactful,

1:03:24.400 --> 1:03:27.640
<v Speaker 2>and it is I just want everyone to read it.

1:03:27.640 --> 1:03:33.520
<v Speaker 2>It is unbelievable. And also the work of several photographers

1:03:33.640 --> 1:03:41.400
<v Speaker 2>like Kuwabara, Sheisei, Shiota Takeshi, Miyamoto Shigemi, and also Eugene

1:03:41.440 --> 1:03:45.240
<v Speaker 2>and Eileen Smith who helped to bring Minamata disease to

1:03:45.280 --> 1:03:48.640
<v Speaker 2>wider attention and the struggle for recognition by the company

1:03:49.160 --> 1:03:52.640
<v Speaker 2>as to what they did. And I also want to

1:03:52.760 --> 1:03:55.480
<v Speaker 2>especially shout out to learn this in the research for

1:03:55.520 --> 1:03:59.919
<v Speaker 2>this episode, that Eugene and Eileen Smith so who brought

1:04:00.160 --> 1:04:04.320
<v Speaker 2>this international recognition to Minimata disease. There's actually a new

1:04:04.400 --> 1:04:08.280
<v Speaker 2>movie called Minamata that came out in twenty twenty, but

1:04:08.440 --> 1:04:12.680
<v Speaker 2>I couldn't find it streaming anywhere yet. About Eugene Smith,

1:04:12.720 --> 1:04:17.160
<v Speaker 2>who was a photographer for Life who basically invented the

1:04:17.280 --> 1:04:22.000
<v Speaker 2>editorial photo essay, and his an alien's book is titled

1:04:22.000 --> 1:04:26.080
<v Speaker 2>Minamata is beautiful and incredible and it's like groundbreaking.

1:04:26.960 --> 1:04:27.400
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

1:04:28.000 --> 1:04:31.400
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, all this is to say is that by the

1:04:31.480 --> 1:04:35.680
<v Speaker 2>time that one hundred and twelve patients and family members

1:04:35.800 --> 1:04:38.680
<v Speaker 2>had filed a suit against the company in nineteen sixty nine,

1:04:39.280 --> 1:04:42.959
<v Speaker 2>they had a lot more public support than they previously had.

1:04:44.360 --> 1:04:47.560
<v Speaker 2>And it took a few years, but eventually they did

1:04:47.680 --> 1:04:51.880
<v Speaker 2>see success in court. It wasn't perfect, but it did

1:04:52.000 --> 1:04:55.520
<v Speaker 2>force the Chiso Corporation to pay more, and it also

1:04:55.600 --> 1:05:00.880
<v Speaker 2>held them responsible legally for the poisoning. It legally said

1:05:00.920 --> 1:05:05.400
<v Speaker 2>that they had shown negligence in dumping between two hundred

1:05:05.440 --> 1:05:09.440
<v Speaker 2>and twenty four to six hundred tons of mercury estimated.

1:05:09.840 --> 1:05:14.400
<v Speaker 1>That is not only massive amounts, but a massive range

1:05:14.560 --> 1:05:15.800
<v Speaker 1>that is terrifying.

1:05:16.240 --> 1:05:18.960
<v Speaker 2>Right, So two hundred and twenty four is definitely like

1:05:19.040 --> 1:05:21.919
<v Speaker 2>those are not the Chiesa Corporation's estimations, by the way,

1:05:23.040 --> 1:05:25.520
<v Speaker 2>but it is thought to be at at least two

1:05:25.600 --> 1:05:29.560
<v Speaker 2>hundred and twenty four. That's And so when you said

1:05:29.560 --> 1:05:32.520
<v Speaker 2>that thing about the one drop of mercury from or

1:05:32.600 --> 1:05:40.200
<v Speaker 2>like that little bit of mercury from a thermometer matter, Yeah, yeah,

1:05:40.760 --> 1:05:46.000
<v Speaker 2>but there would still be a certification committee. And this

1:05:46.040 --> 1:05:49.480
<v Speaker 2>committee excluded a lot of people who had less severe symptoms,

1:05:49.840 --> 1:05:53.360
<v Speaker 2>like who didn't display the classic methal mercury poisoning symptoms.

1:05:53.720 --> 1:05:57.640
<v Speaker 2>But still it was a big step forward. It gave

1:05:58.040 --> 1:06:02.120
<v Speaker 2>the people who had minimata disease and their families some

1:06:02.320 --> 1:06:06.440
<v Speaker 2>relief and a sense of dignity. It allowed them to

1:06:06.720 --> 1:06:11.040
<v Speaker 2>not fight constantly to get the Chisee Corporation to acknowledge

1:06:11.080 --> 1:06:14.320
<v Speaker 2>that what they did was wrong, but to actually then

1:06:14.520 --> 1:06:17.520
<v Speaker 2>have the power to say, Okay, yes, what you did

1:06:17.600 --> 1:06:20.440
<v Speaker 2>was wrong. Now what can we do? What can you

1:06:20.560 --> 1:06:23.439
<v Speaker 2>do to make it at least a little bit better?

1:06:23.480 --> 1:06:25.640
<v Speaker 2>You'll never make it right, but to make it a

1:06:25.680 --> 1:06:30.880
<v Speaker 2>little bit better. And I'm going to wind down the

1:06:31.040 --> 1:06:35.400
<v Speaker 2>history here, maybe rather abruptly, but I do want to

1:06:35.440 --> 1:06:39.680
<v Speaker 2>be clear that the story of minimata disease is not over.

1:06:40.640 --> 1:06:44.240
<v Speaker 2>The Minimata Bay was declared cleaned of mercury by I

1:06:44.280 --> 1:06:48.680
<v Speaker 2>think nineteen ninety four, But today many of those with

1:06:48.880 --> 1:06:52.439
<v Speaker 2>congenital Minimata disease are at an age where they need

1:06:52.480 --> 1:06:56.760
<v Speaker 2>increasing amounts of support and care, and their parents, who

1:06:56.840 --> 1:07:00.840
<v Speaker 2>have typically provided that care, are also aging and less

1:07:00.880 --> 1:07:07.160
<v Speaker 2>physically able to do that. Many people are still unregistered.

1:07:07.480 --> 1:07:10.160
<v Speaker 2>They haven't been able to get certified by these committees

1:07:10.200 --> 1:07:12.720
<v Speaker 2>and so they don't have any payments from the Chiso

1:07:12.800 --> 1:07:18.080
<v Speaker 2>Corporation to help them with their medical issues. And also

1:07:18.200 --> 1:07:22.280
<v Speaker 2>many people are still unsatisfied with the inaction and lack

1:07:22.320 --> 1:07:26.080
<v Speaker 2>of accountability from the government and have continued to fight

1:07:26.160 --> 1:07:31.560
<v Speaker 2>for recognition. In total, two two hundred and sixty five

1:07:31.720 --> 1:07:37.040
<v Speaker 2>people have been officially certified, of whom one thousand, seven

1:07:37.120 --> 1:07:41.560
<v Speaker 2>hundred and eighty four have died and ten thousand have

1:07:41.680 --> 1:07:47.640
<v Speaker 2>received financial compensation from CHISO. More recently, it has been

1:07:47.680 --> 1:07:51.880
<v Speaker 2>suggested that calling Minimata disease a disease rather than a

1:07:51.960 --> 1:07:57.200
<v Speaker 2>criminal poisoning hides the truth. It doesn't place the responsibility

1:07:57.240 --> 1:08:02.440
<v Speaker 2>at the feet necessarily at the Chiso Corporation. The history

1:08:02.480 --> 1:08:06.360
<v Speaker 2>of this criminal mercury poisoning by the chase of corporation

1:08:06.720 --> 1:08:10.000
<v Speaker 2>in and around Minamata has led to the creation of

1:08:10.040 --> 1:08:14.120
<v Speaker 2>an entire field of study. It has inspired plays, poems,

1:08:14.400 --> 1:08:19.360
<v Speaker 2>and songs. It was impactful in the democratization of Japan.

1:08:20.000 --> 1:08:23.840
<v Speaker 2>It helped turn the tide for corporate accountability, and it

1:08:23.880 --> 1:08:28.759
<v Speaker 2>revealed this power of grassroots movements. And we cannot afford

1:08:28.880 --> 1:08:33.720
<v Speaker 2>to ignore or forget what happened in Minamata because it's

1:08:33.840 --> 1:08:38.800
<v Speaker 2>going to keep happening. Maybe it won't be methyl mercury poisoning,

1:08:39.000 --> 1:08:43.360
<v Speaker 2>although it probably will also be that, and there definitely

1:08:43.400 --> 1:08:48.439
<v Speaker 2>have been instances of mercury pollution since Minamata, but there's

1:08:48.479 --> 1:08:51.720
<v Speaker 2>also a good chance it could be something similar, Like

1:08:51.960 --> 1:08:55.280
<v Speaker 2>what about climate change and the large scale destruction of

1:08:55.280 --> 1:09:00.400
<v Speaker 2>our planet? What is the true cost of progress? There's

1:09:00.560 --> 1:09:04.200
<v Speaker 2>a great quote from the book Minamata by Eugene and

1:09:04.240 --> 1:09:10.000
<v Speaker 2>Eileen Smith. The morality that pollution is criminal only after

1:09:10.120 --> 1:09:16.439
<v Speaker 2>legal conviction is the morality that causes pollution. This is

1:09:16.800 --> 1:09:20.160
<v Speaker 2>as relevant today as when it was first published back

1:09:20.200 --> 1:09:24.559
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen seventy five. Like it's I can't emphasize enough

1:09:25.080 --> 1:09:30.280
<v Speaker 2>how so many corporations just are not being held accountable

1:09:30.800 --> 1:09:35.679
<v Speaker 2>for what they're doing. To the planet, and so I

1:09:35.760 --> 1:09:40.960
<v Speaker 2>really really encourage everyone to learn more about this, about Minamata.

1:09:41.800 --> 1:09:45.840
<v Speaker 2>Read Paradise in the Sea of Sorrow by Isshi Murde Michiko,

1:09:46.200 --> 1:09:49.679
<v Speaker 2>or Minamata by Timothy George, or the photo essay book

1:09:49.720 --> 1:09:53.640
<v Speaker 2>by Eugene and Eileen Smith, or watch the documentary Minimata

1:09:53.680 --> 1:09:57.240
<v Speaker 2>the Victims in Their World, because there is so so

1:09:57.400 --> 1:09:59.840
<v Speaker 2>much more to the story than what I've gone through here.

1:10:00.680 --> 1:10:05.240
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, I think Aaron that I'm ready for you

1:10:05.280 --> 1:10:08.479
<v Speaker 2>to tell me what's going on with mercury and mercury

1:10:08.520 --> 1:10:09.599
<v Speaker 2>poisoning today.

1:10:10.439 --> 1:10:40.080
<v Speaker 1>I would love to after the break. So I try

1:10:40.120 --> 1:10:44.960
<v Speaker 1>always in these sections to talk about numbers, right, like

1:10:45.400 --> 1:10:48.120
<v Speaker 1>in this case, it would be do people still get

1:10:48.280 --> 1:10:52.600
<v Speaker 1>mercury poisoning? How many? I couldn't find numbers on this

1:10:52.760 --> 1:10:57.000
<v Speaker 1>errand I mean the only number I could find I

1:10:57.080 --> 1:11:00.880
<v Speaker 1>found a couple. We'll still talk numbers. Don't worry. The

1:11:00.920 --> 1:11:06.719
<v Speaker 1>World Health Organization estimates that in subsistence fishing communities between

1:11:07.160 --> 1:11:10.960
<v Speaker 1>one and a half to seventeen, which is a huge

1:11:11.080 --> 1:11:15.640
<v Speaker 1>range of every one thousand children have some kind of

1:11:15.680 --> 1:11:21.559
<v Speaker 1>cognitive impact because of the consumption of mercury contaminated fish.

1:11:22.120 --> 1:11:22.599
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

1:11:22.960 --> 1:11:26.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I don't know that number is from the World

1:11:26.040 --> 1:11:30.120
<v Speaker 1>Health Organization like Mercury fact Sheet website. I don't know

1:11:30.200 --> 1:11:35.240
<v Speaker 1>exactly where that number came from, but that's the number

1:11:35.240 --> 1:11:39.840
<v Speaker 1>that they cite. If we look at the potential for

1:11:39.920 --> 1:11:44.320
<v Speaker 1>occupational exposure, which we know is great in certain industries,

1:11:44.600 --> 1:11:50.799
<v Speaker 1>especially in artisanal and small scale gold mining. I found

1:11:50.920 --> 1:11:55.479
<v Speaker 1>a paper from Environmental Health Perspectives from twenty fourteen that

1:11:55.720 --> 1:12:00.080
<v Speaker 1>was a review on the health effects of mercury in

1:12:00.080 --> 1:12:04.000
<v Speaker 1>in these artisanal and small scale gold mining communities. They

1:12:04.080 --> 1:12:10.920
<v Speaker 1>cited that globally, fifteen million people participate in this type

1:12:10.920 --> 1:12:14.000
<v Speaker 1>of gold mining across seventy different countries, which is a

1:12:14.120 --> 1:12:19.360
<v Speaker 1>way bigger industry than I realized. And they didn't have

1:12:19.479 --> 1:12:24.240
<v Speaker 1>numbers like what percentage of people have signs of mercury

1:12:24.320 --> 1:12:27.400
<v Speaker 1>poisoning or anything like that, but they did say that

1:12:27.520 --> 1:12:31.240
<v Speaker 1>in this paper was kind of a review of papers

1:12:31.240 --> 1:12:35.200
<v Speaker 1>that have looked into it, and mercury exposure at very

1:12:35.240 --> 1:12:41.000
<v Speaker 1>high levels is found and causing potential health problems. So

1:12:41.200 --> 1:12:43.160
<v Speaker 1>it's still not numbers, but at least you get a

1:12:43.200 --> 1:12:49.080
<v Speaker 1>sense of the potential scale. But the thing is that

1:12:49.120 --> 1:12:52.600
<v Speaker 1>it's not just occupational exposure right, And it's not just

1:12:52.640 --> 1:12:57.760
<v Speaker 1>subsistence farming communities. Everyone is exposed to mercury. If you've

1:12:57.760 --> 1:13:00.880
<v Speaker 1>ever eaten a fish or a shellfish, if you've ever

1:13:00.880 --> 1:13:05.160
<v Speaker 1>eaten grain, you've probably been exposed. It's everywhere. So what

1:13:05.200 --> 1:13:08.160
<v Speaker 1>I want to focus on instead is how much mercury

1:13:08.160 --> 1:13:11.160
<v Speaker 1>are we talking about in the environment and where is

1:13:11.200 --> 1:13:16.599
<v Speaker 1>this mercury coming from. So I mentioned at the very

1:13:16.720 --> 1:13:21.280
<v Speaker 1>very top, like three hours ago in this episode that

1:13:21.479 --> 1:13:24.920
<v Speaker 1>mercury is found naturally in the Earth's crust, and there

1:13:25.000 --> 1:13:29.160
<v Speaker 1>is a natural mercury cycle where mercury is released from

1:13:29.200 --> 1:13:34.400
<v Speaker 1>things like geothermal vents, from volcanic activity, from biomass that's

1:13:34.439 --> 1:13:39.200
<v Speaker 1>burned during fires. This happens normally, and then this mercury

1:13:39.360 --> 1:13:43.160
<v Speaker 1>is released into the atmosphere. It's deposited in the soils

1:13:43.280 --> 1:13:46.400
<v Speaker 1>or the oceans or the waterways, where it of course

1:13:46.479 --> 1:13:48.760
<v Speaker 1>can become methylated and it can become part of the

1:13:48.760 --> 1:13:52.639
<v Speaker 1>biomass or become part of the soil deposits and eventual

1:13:52.680 --> 1:13:56.479
<v Speaker 1>fossil fuels, et cetera. Right, that's a natural cycle, like

1:13:56.720 --> 1:14:02.640
<v Speaker 1>the water cycle, the carbon dioxide cycle cycles. But just

1:14:02.880 --> 1:14:09.040
<v Speaker 1>like the carbon dioxide cycle, the amounts of mercury currently

1:14:09.080 --> 1:14:13.600
<v Speaker 1>in our atmosphere and being released into our atmosphere to

1:14:13.800 --> 1:14:17.240
<v Speaker 1>become a part of this active cycle rather than trapped

1:14:17.280 --> 1:14:21.680
<v Speaker 1>beneath the Earth's crust, are vastly higher than they have

1:14:21.880 --> 1:14:30.160
<v Speaker 1>been ever because of humans. Unsurprisingly, the sources of increased

1:14:30.160 --> 1:14:34.160
<v Speaker 1>mercury concentrations in the atmosphere are anthropogenic. So let's put

1:14:34.200 --> 1:14:38.160
<v Speaker 1>some numbers on it. If you check out the EPA website,

1:14:38.520 --> 1:14:41.320
<v Speaker 1>which reports data from the US and all of the

1:14:41.320 --> 1:14:45.400
<v Speaker 1>industries that report mercury emissions and all other emissions to

1:14:45.439 --> 1:14:49.320
<v Speaker 1>the US, the EPA has reported a seventy three percent

1:14:49.360 --> 1:14:52.680
<v Speaker 1>decrease in airborne emissions of mercury from two thousand and

1:14:52.680 --> 1:14:55.640
<v Speaker 1>seven to twenty nineteen, which, if you look at that

1:14:55.760 --> 1:14:58.519
<v Speaker 1>on a national level, you're like, that's awesome, that's a

1:14:58.600 --> 1:15:02.840
<v Speaker 1>huge decrease. But the thing about something like mercury or

1:15:02.880 --> 1:15:06.760
<v Speaker 1>carbon dioxide is that we can't look at things like

1:15:06.920 --> 1:15:11.599
<v Speaker 1>environmental pollution on a country or a national level. This

1:15:11.640 --> 1:15:16.280
<v Speaker 1>is a global phenomenon with global consequences because mercury released

1:15:16.320 --> 1:15:20.360
<v Speaker 1>into the atmosphere can travel thousands of miles before being

1:15:20.400 --> 1:15:24.760
<v Speaker 1>deposited via rainfall into our soils and waters, where it

1:15:24.800 --> 1:15:28.719
<v Speaker 1>can continue to travel throughout the water cycle across the globe,

1:15:29.120 --> 1:15:33.280
<v Speaker 1>be methylated by bacteria uptaken by plants enter our food chain.

1:15:33.600 --> 1:15:36.240
<v Speaker 1>Those fish can then travel across the globe, and then

1:15:36.280 --> 1:15:38.800
<v Speaker 1>once a fish is caught for consumption, it can be

1:15:38.840 --> 1:15:40.479
<v Speaker 1>shipped anywhere around the world.

1:15:41.040 --> 1:15:41.240
<v Speaker 2>Yep.

1:15:42.240 --> 1:15:45.880
<v Speaker 1>So this is a global issue. So how are we

1:15:45.920 --> 1:15:52.799
<v Speaker 1>doing globally? A UN report from twenty eighteen estimated about

1:15:52.880 --> 1:15:58.720
<v Speaker 1>twenty two hundred tons that's two two hundred tons of

1:15:58.760 --> 1:16:03.360
<v Speaker 1>global emissions of mercury in twenty fifteen. This is an

1:16:03.439 --> 1:16:07.080
<v Speaker 1>increase of twenty percent from twenty ten.

1:16:08.280 --> 1:16:08.400
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

1:16:09.040 --> 1:16:14.719
<v Speaker 1>Okay, when we look at what the contributors are, coal

1:16:14.760 --> 1:16:18.280
<v Speaker 1>burning and other fossil fuel burning accounts for about twenty

1:16:18.320 --> 1:16:24.320
<v Speaker 1>four percent of all of the total global emissions. The

1:16:24.479 --> 1:16:29.200
<v Speaker 1>largest overall percentage, thirty seven point seven percent, is contributed

1:16:29.200 --> 1:16:32.799
<v Speaker 1>by artisanal and small scale gold mining. So this presents

1:16:32.840 --> 1:16:35.560
<v Speaker 1>issues not only for the people who are being exposed

1:16:35.560 --> 1:16:38.679
<v Speaker 1>to this mercury vapor during that small scale gold mining,

1:16:38.840 --> 1:16:43.160
<v Speaker 1>but also on a large scale as well. And overall,

1:16:44.200 --> 1:16:50.679
<v Speaker 1>human activities have increased the total atmospheric mercury concentrations by

1:16:50.720 --> 1:16:55.720
<v Speaker 1>four hundred and fifty percent from pre industrial levels.

1:16:57.040 --> 1:16:59.640
<v Speaker 2>It's very difficult to wrap your brain around.

1:17:00.000 --> 1:17:04.040
<v Speaker 1>Really is because just like with climate change and carbon dioxide,

1:17:04.160 --> 1:17:07.120
<v Speaker 1>the amount of mercury that we've already put into the environment,

1:17:07.320 --> 1:17:10.680
<v Speaker 1>the atmosphere, the soils, the waters, it hasn't made it

1:17:10.760 --> 1:17:13.920
<v Speaker 1>all into the food chain yet, so decreasing our emissions

1:17:13.960 --> 1:17:17.439
<v Speaker 1>now will still take years to actually show like a

1:17:17.479 --> 1:17:22.360
<v Speaker 1>beneficial effect or a decrease in total mercury. Yeah, so

1:17:22.800 --> 1:17:26.400
<v Speaker 1>it's it's a lot. It's such a bigger issue than

1:17:26.439 --> 1:17:29.439
<v Speaker 1>I realized. Erin, I had no idea that there was

1:17:29.479 --> 1:17:32.720
<v Speaker 1>so much mercury being released by things. I didn't I

1:17:32.760 --> 1:17:33.280
<v Speaker 1>didn't know that.

1:17:33.760 --> 1:17:37.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean I didn't either, And I like, you could

1:17:37.880 --> 1:17:42.840
<v Speaker 2>do an entire podcast, multiple seasons on mercury, ye for sure.

1:17:43.080 --> 1:17:45.760
<v Speaker 1>Speaking of too much to cover a whole topic I

1:17:45.760 --> 1:17:50.000
<v Speaker 1>didn't even get into, which I'll just very briefly mention

1:17:51.280 --> 1:17:53.680
<v Speaker 1>is something we actually touched on what feels like a

1:17:53.720 --> 1:17:56.479
<v Speaker 1>million years ago in our Vaccines episode in season two,

1:17:56.600 --> 1:18:03.000
<v Speaker 1>and that's thymerisol. So thy ma is a mercury compound

1:18:03.640 --> 1:18:07.560
<v Speaker 1>that is an additive that's been used in various multidose

1:18:07.640 --> 1:18:13.280
<v Speaker 1>vaccine viols as a preservative. Mercury has been used as

1:18:13.360 --> 1:18:17.920
<v Speaker 1>so many things antiseptic, antimicrobial, and so thimerisol is used

1:18:18.000 --> 1:18:22.040
<v Speaker 1>as a preservative to prevent contamination when somebody has to

1:18:22.080 --> 1:18:25.599
<v Speaker 1>introduce multiple needles into viols multiple times to draw up

1:18:25.680 --> 1:18:32.720
<v Speaker 1>vaccine doses. So thymerisol is ethyl mercury, or at least

1:18:32.760 --> 1:18:36.360
<v Speaker 1>it's broken down into ethyl mercury in our bodies, so

1:18:36.479 --> 1:18:41.599
<v Speaker 1>it's an organic mercury compound, but it is not methyl mercury,

1:18:41.840 --> 1:18:45.799
<v Speaker 1>which is what we find in fish. For example, methyl

1:18:45.800 --> 1:18:51.080
<v Speaker 1>mercury is one carbon atom and three hydrogens bound to mercury.

1:18:51.720 --> 1:18:57.160
<v Speaker 1>Ethyl mercury is two carbon atoms five hydrogens. So back

1:18:57.200 --> 1:19:01.120
<v Speaker 1>in like nineteen ninety nine, the American Account of Pediatrics

1:19:01.240 --> 1:19:04.960
<v Speaker 1>recommended in the US reducing or eliminating the use of

1:19:05.000 --> 1:19:09.920
<v Speaker 1>thymerisol in vaccines in kids because of data about the

1:19:09.960 --> 1:19:15.280
<v Speaker 1>accumulation of methyl mercury in tissues and they thought that

1:19:15.400 --> 1:19:21.560
<v Speaker 1>for some kids of certain sizes, the dosages would exceed

1:19:21.800 --> 1:19:27.759
<v Speaker 1>methyl mercury like recommended safe dosages. So in the US,

1:19:28.040 --> 1:19:31.760
<v Speaker 1>the UK, the EU, in a lot of places, thymerisol

1:19:31.880 --> 1:19:34.320
<v Speaker 1>isn't really used in childhood vaccines at all. It's been

1:19:34.360 --> 1:19:37.360
<v Speaker 1>eliminated since about two thousand and four, but it is

1:19:37.400 --> 1:19:40.400
<v Speaker 1>still an important preservative in vaccines and other parts of

1:19:40.400 --> 1:19:43.160
<v Speaker 1>the world. It's still used in some vaccines in the US.

1:19:44.200 --> 1:19:48.320
<v Speaker 1>But this data, importantly was not from ethyl mercury. It

1:19:48.360 --> 1:19:52.280
<v Speaker 1>was from methyl mercury. And it turns out that ethyl mercury,

1:19:52.439 --> 1:19:56.360
<v Speaker 1>once we studied it, is eliminated from the body a

1:19:56.400 --> 1:19:59.240
<v Speaker 1>lot more readily than methyl mercury is, so it doesn't

1:19:59.240 --> 1:20:03.120
<v Speaker 1>actually accumulate late the same way. And so since then,

1:20:03.840 --> 1:20:08.000
<v Speaker 1>because of all this controversy surrounding thymerisol, there have been

1:20:08.000 --> 1:20:11.200
<v Speaker 1>a lot of large scale epidymiological studies, none of which

1:20:11.240 --> 1:20:16.400
<v Speaker 1>have shown major or long term neurodevelopmental effects of thymraisol

1:20:16.520 --> 1:20:20.680
<v Speaker 1>in vaccines. There's a lot more to that story, but

1:20:20.760 --> 1:20:24.080
<v Speaker 1>that's all. I wanted to just mention that it exists,

1:20:24.160 --> 1:20:26.960
<v Speaker 1>and it's a different form of mercury than what we

1:20:27.040 --> 1:20:31.040
<v Speaker 1>find in fish, and that than what causes minimata disease,

1:20:31.080 --> 1:20:31.679
<v Speaker 1>for example.

1:20:32.280 --> 1:20:32.679
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm.

1:20:33.560 --> 1:20:39.360
<v Speaker 1>So that's mercury, or at least some small slices of it.

1:20:39.520 --> 1:20:41.439
<v Speaker 2>I was gonna say, we covered I mean, I feel

1:20:41.479 --> 1:20:43.599
<v Speaker 2>like we covered a lot of ground, but there's still

1:20:43.840 --> 1:20:44.559
<v Speaker 2>a lot out there.

1:20:44.640 --> 1:20:47.880
<v Speaker 1>There's a we we broke the thermometer and just spilled

1:20:47.880 --> 1:20:50.240
<v Speaker 1>a few drops out and there's a lot left in there.

1:20:50.560 --> 1:20:54.000
<v Speaker 2>There we go, Okay, anyways, clean that, Clean that up though,

1:20:54.080 --> 1:20:54.840
<v Speaker 2>clean it up and.

1:20:54.800 --> 1:20:55.559
<v Speaker 1>Don't vacuum it.

1:20:55.760 --> 1:21:03.640
<v Speaker 2>Sources sources I pretty much have already mentioned mine, but

1:21:03.720 --> 1:21:07.720
<v Speaker 2>I will briefly just go through again the titles, so

1:21:07.840 --> 1:21:11.360
<v Speaker 2>Paradise in the Sea of Sorrow, Minamata, Pollution and the

1:21:11.400 --> 1:21:15.760
<v Speaker 2>Struggle for Democracy and post war Japan, Toxic Archipelago, A

1:21:15.800 --> 1:21:19.960
<v Speaker 2>History of Industrial Disease in Japan, and then Minimata and

1:21:20.000 --> 1:21:22.839
<v Speaker 2>then again that Mercury History of Quicksilver book.

1:21:23.760 --> 1:21:27.840
<v Speaker 1>I had a number of different sources, a lot of

1:21:27.880 --> 1:21:30.800
<v Speaker 1>which go into way more detail than I did on

1:21:30.880 --> 1:21:35.920
<v Speaker 1>the specific mechanisms of the toxicity of mercury. So if

1:21:35.920 --> 1:21:38.400
<v Speaker 1>you'd like to read a lot more, we'll list all

1:21:38.439 --> 1:21:40.920
<v Speaker 1>of our sources on our website, this podcast with kill

1:21:40.960 --> 1:21:44.280
<v Speaker 1>you dot Com under the episodes tap we Sure Will.

1:21:45.439 --> 1:21:48.559
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to give a huge thank you and shout

1:21:48.600 --> 1:21:52.360
<v Speaker 2>out to Emily who helped me with these sources for

1:21:52.600 --> 1:21:58.080
<v Speaker 2>Minamata Disease. They were like so helpful, so I appreciate

1:21:58.120 --> 1:21:59.800
<v Speaker 2>it so much. It was so great to email back

1:21:59.840 --> 1:22:00.479
<v Speaker 2>in Worth with you.

1:22:01.000 --> 1:22:03.760
<v Speaker 1>Thank you also to Bloodmobile for providing the music for

1:22:03.840 --> 1:22:06.000
<v Speaker 1>this episode and all of our episodes.

1:22:06.439 --> 1:22:09.040
<v Speaker 2>And thank you to the Exactly Right Network, of whom

1:22:09.040 --> 1:22:10.160
<v Speaker 2>we are a proud member.

1:22:10.720 --> 1:22:13.560
<v Speaker 1>And thank you to you listeners. We hope that you

1:22:13.640 --> 1:22:16.800
<v Speaker 1>found this very long episode enjoyable.

1:22:17.400 --> 1:22:21.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and also a shout out to our patrons. Yeah,

1:22:22.040 --> 1:22:23.640
<v Speaker 2>really really appreciate you.

1:22:23.920 --> 1:22:25.080
<v Speaker 1>We love amazing so much.

1:22:25.560 --> 1:22:31.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Okay, Well, until next time, wash your hands you

1:22:31.080 --> 1:22:45.679
<v Speaker 2>feel the animals