1
00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:02,559
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

2
00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:10,280
Speaker 2: Is it a framed job? Is there a big conspiracy?

3
00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,320
Speaker 2: Was he set up? Or is it a deadly romance?

4
00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:20,280
Speaker 2: Did Karen read mow down her lover John O'Keefe after

5
00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:24,840
Speaker 2: a boozy argument. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is

6
00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,440
Speaker 2: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

7
00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:31,000
Speaker 3: Taking several pieces of plastic found on John O'Keefe's clothing,

8
00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,480
Speaker 3: Massachusetts State Police crime Lab forensic scientist Ashley Valuer shows

9
00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,199
Speaker 3: how she was able to fit the pieces together and

10
00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,760
Speaker 3: using tape to hold the pieces together, create a larger

11
00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,160
Speaker 3: piece that fits into the tail at housing from Karen

12
00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:45,960
Speaker 3: Reid's SUV.

13
00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,400
Speaker 2: Wow, there's a big conspiracy, so I guess that means

14
00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:54,000
Speaker 2: the police are in on it. That includes the crime

15
00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:59,760
Speaker 2: lab scientists. I have a very hard time believing that

16
00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,440
Speaker 2: she Valier from the crime lab it's part of a

17
00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:09,640
Speaker 2: big conspiracy to frame Karen Reid. But there are a

18
00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,000
Speaker 2: lot of problems with the state's case. I've never gotten

19
00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,600
Speaker 2: so much hate mail online since I said out Jay

20
00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:22,640
Speaker 2: Simpson did it. I'm trying to understand what's happening in

21
00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,920
Speaker 2: the courtroom. A vast police conspiracy. Who who's part of

22
00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:34,360
Speaker 2: this conspiracy or did Karen Reid mow down her lover?

23
00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:42,839
Speaker 2: Their relationship fraught with volatile arguments. What happened? Now? Remember

24
00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:47,320
Speaker 2: if we're not sure, if we can't determine what happened,

25
00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:50,800
Speaker 2: if the evidence is tainted in some way, then the

26
00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:56,240
Speaker 2: jury's duty will be to acquit. It's the state's duty

27
00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:01,240
Speaker 2: to prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt, not to

28
00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,240
Speaker 2: a mathematical certainty such as two and two equals four,

29
00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:15,080
Speaker 2: but beyond a reasonable doubt. Now, this science lab professional,

30
00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:23,560
Speaker 2: Ashley Valier, puts tail light pieces back together again, pieces

31
00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:29,400
Speaker 2: of a tail light. She tapes it back together, and

32
00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:36,960
Speaker 2: guess what it fits into Karen Read's missing section of

33
00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:42,640
Speaker 2: her SUV tail light. Okay, it's going to take a

34
00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:47,080
Speaker 2: lot of convincing to make me believe that a crime

35
00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:53,280
Speaker 2: lab scientist is part of a plot. But first of all,

36
00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,840
Speaker 2: who is the victim in this case? Regardless of how

37
00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:04,400
Speaker 2: he was killed, he was killed at not by natural causes,

38
00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:07,959
Speaker 2: So who is he? Listen?

39
00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,840
Speaker 4: John JJ O'Keefe grows up in Braintree, Massachusetts, with dreams

40
00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,600
Speaker 4: of one day becoming a police officer. O'Keefe graduates from

41
00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,080
Speaker 4: Northeastern university and pursues a master's degree in criminal justice

42
00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,320
Speaker 4: from the University of Massachusetts. O'Keefe moves to Canon and

43
00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:23,720
Speaker 4: becomes an officer with the Boston PD, serving on the

44
00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,400
Speaker 4: force for sixteen years. When O'Keefe's sister, Kristen and her husband,

45
00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,239
Speaker 4: Steven Furbush, pass away within two months of each other,

46
00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,280
Speaker 4: o'keef takes in their two young children.

47
00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,880
Speaker 2: Wow, okay, hold on just a moment. Let me understand something. Guys.

48
00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,240
Speaker 2: We have an all star panel to make sense of

49
00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,640
Speaker 2: what we know right now. I've got a criminal defense

50
00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,160
Speaker 2: attorney who's a former federal prosecutor. I've got a renowned

51
00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,240
Speaker 2: psychoanalyst to help me wade through this. I've got a

52
00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,960
Speaker 2: forensic expert, the director of the Cole Case Research Institute.

53
00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,560
Speaker 2: I have one of the most renowned medical examiners in

54
00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,520
Speaker 2: our country, doctor Kendall Crowns. But first, let me understand something.

55
00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,640
Speaker 2: Going out to Lauren Colin, who's joining us at the courthouse,

56
00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,880
Speaker 2: who's been in the middle of all of this, host

57
00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:10,520
Speaker 2: of the Outlier podcast, Lauren, did I hear that correctly?

58
00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:18,599
Speaker 2: John O'Keefe took in his niece's nephews when his siblings died.

59
00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:23,200
Speaker 5: Yes, Nancy, You're correct. Officer John O'Keefe is such a

60
00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,560
Speaker 5: stand up man. His sister passed away and then a

61
00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,560
Speaker 5: few months later her husband passed away, so he legally

62
00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:35,280
Speaker 5: adopted their children and essentially acted as their father ever since.

63
00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,040
Speaker 2: Oh my stars, this is a stand up guy. And

64
00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:43,239
Speaker 2: that's putting it mildly. Lauren Colin, I appreciate you joining

65
00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,360
Speaker 2: us from the courthouse, because I'm telling you this case

66
00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:53,279
Speaker 2: is explosive. When I said, hey, didn't Karen Reid say

67
00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,840
Speaker 2: I did it? Did I hit him? And didn't the

68
00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,960
Speaker 2: broken tail light pieces fit into her car? And did

69
00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,680
Speaker 2: she have an incredibly over the limit blood alcohol that night?

70
00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,680
Speaker 2: And weren't they arguing that night? And didn't she know

71
00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,840
Speaker 2: exactly where to go look for his body? Didn't all

72
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,320
Speaker 2: that happen? That sounds like she's guilty. I've never gotten

73
00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,960
Speaker 2: so much hate since the time I said, yeah, Simpson

74
00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:19,280
Speaker 2: did it.

75
00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:20,640
Speaker 1: Obvious.

76
00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,960
Speaker 2: So I'm missing a lot, obviously, And I've been looking

77
00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:30,040
Speaker 2: at the evidence, and there are problems with some of

78
00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:35,160
Speaker 2: the evidents, specifically Ellie. Law Enforcement got on the stand

79
00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,760
Speaker 2: and it came out that he had said very disparaging

80
00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:43,599
Speaker 2: things about the defendant Karen Reid. Now that's bad, but

81
00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,719
Speaker 2: does that make her innocent? Ah, We've got so much

82
00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:49,880
Speaker 2: to weigh through. Guys, everybody listen to this.

83
00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,880
Speaker 3: Boston Police officer John o'keef finds love with financial advisor

84
00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:59,000
Speaker 3: Karen Reid, read forty four lectures at Bentley University while

85
00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:03,360
Speaker 3: also working for Fidelity Investments. Reid moves into O'Keeffe's home

86
00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,799
Speaker 3: during their two year relationship. But it's not always smooth

87
00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,239
Speaker 3: sailing for the couple. O'Keefe's niece and nephew hear loud

88
00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:15,080
Speaker 3: arguments between Reed and their uncle with increasing frequency. Friends

89
00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,600
Speaker 3: who joined the couple on a trip to Aruba report

90
00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,760
Speaker 3: a blowout fight between Reed and O'Keefe during the vacation.

91
00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,920
Speaker 2: Wow, if you can't be happy in tropical paradise, can

92
00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,039
Speaker 2: you be happy anywhere? Okay, that's a whole another can

93
00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,479
Speaker 2: of worms. I want to get to the evidence. Joining

94
00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,200
Speaker 2: me at the courthouse, Lauren Conlin, Lauren, tell me what's

95
00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:37,520
Speaker 2: happening right now.

96
00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,440
Speaker 5: So right now during this crazy trial, Nancy, and I'll

97
00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,599
Speaker 5: tell you it's crazy. We just left off with the

98
00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:49,159
Speaker 5: lead investigator, Trooper Michael Proctor yesterday, who was cross examined

99
00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,719
Speaker 5: and a lot of bad text messages came out, and look,

100
00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,920
Speaker 5: I agree with you, that doesn't mean that Karen Reid

101
00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,919
Speaker 5: is guilty per se. But again this is going to

102
00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:04,000
Speaker 5: credibility now. Also on the stand yesterday where we left

103
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,080
Speaker 5: off with Lieutenant Brian Tully, so he will be finishing

104
00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,240
Speaker 5: today with Ady A. Lally and then we'll see the

105
00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:14,240
Speaker 5: cross examination. But evidence so far it's a little bit nuanced.

106
00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,120
Speaker 5: I don't know if you want to get into it yet, Nancy,

107
00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:18,560
Speaker 5: but I can point out a lot of things that

108
00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:19,280
Speaker 5: you said.

109
00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:21,720
Speaker 6: I can point out the other side, the other argument.

110
00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,280
Speaker 2: Tim Jansen joining me Hi put the aged criminal defense

111
00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,000
Speaker 2: attorney and for my purposes is very important form of

112
00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:32,400
Speaker 2: federal prosecutor legal analysts for the Tallahassee Democrats newspaper at

113
00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,640
Speaker 2: Jansenlawoffice dot com. Tim, thank you for being with us.

114
00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,560
Speaker 2: I want you to jump in because I can't think

115
00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,440
Speaker 2: of a reason that all of these police would get

116
00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:49,720
Speaker 2: together and agree to frame somebody and not one cop

117
00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,000
Speaker 2: would break ranks and say, listen, that's not what happened

118
00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,640
Speaker 2: this other cop did. I find that really hard to believe.

119
00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,280
Speaker 2: But it may not take a ton of cop It

120
00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,680
Speaker 2: might take two cops three cops that are very good

121
00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,320
Speaker 2: friends that join together to cover something up. But why

122
00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,800
Speaker 2: would a cop kill their friend? Nancy. I agree with

123
00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:12,760
Speaker 2: you wholeheartedly.

124
00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,040
Speaker 7: I don't think it was a conspiracy if everybody involved.

125
00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,720
Speaker 7: I think you had an investigator who didn't go to

126
00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,960
Speaker 7: the crime scene, who is biased, had a relationship with

127
00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:27,000
Speaker 7: these people. He said in his text message, something stinks.

128
00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:29,920
Speaker 7: I think when he got this case, there were things

129
00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,960
Speaker 7: that didn't add up. Okay, One, the injuries do not

130
00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:38,160
Speaker 7: add up with someone getting backed up by the injuries.

131
00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,720
Speaker 7: The injuries looked more like somebody punched him. He might

132
00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,040
Speaker 7: have fallen and got it and suffered these injuries, and

133
00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,840
Speaker 7: the body might have been moved. He also had what

134
00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,520
Speaker 7: appeared to be dog bites. The dog of the owner

135
00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,920
Speaker 7: got rid of the dog. They cleared the floor and

136
00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,880
Speaker 7: sold the house fifty thousand dollars less than what its

137
00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:02,959
Speaker 7: value was. Jennifer McCabe, the sister in law, at two

138
00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:08,880
Speaker 7: twenty two am, googles when how long does hyperthermia take place?

139
00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,240
Speaker 7: She then deleted that now this is before the body

140
00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:17,400
Speaker 7: was found, So when Proctor comes onto the case, he's

141
00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,199
Speaker 7: only getting what he's told and he never went to

142
00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:21,080
Speaker 7: the crime scene.

143
00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,320
Speaker 2: I want you, if you don't mind, one more time,

144
00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,560
Speaker 2: Tim Jansen, to go through what you're saying, because does

145
00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,400
Speaker 2: this mean she's innocent. No, it does not, But does

146
00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,800
Speaker 2: it cast doubt on the state's case to the extent

147
00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,160
Speaker 2: there will be a hung jury or an acquittal. And

148
00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,760
Speaker 2: I want to tell everybody that's beating me up online,

149
00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:46,520
Speaker 2: number one, don't care, but number two, I don't have

150
00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,960
Speaker 2: a dog in this fight. I care about one thing,

151
00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,079
Speaker 2: a tree verdict. The case laid out by the state,

152
00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,280
Speaker 2: in my mind, is overwhelming, but I also believe the

153
00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:03,200
Speaker 2: defense is making man ajor headway. And what they're doing

154
00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,360
Speaker 2: with all the cross examination and all of the points

155
00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,679
Speaker 2: they are making, I think it's very, very compelling. I

156
00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:12,480
Speaker 2: want to know the truth just like everybody else. I

157
00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,560
Speaker 2: want the right person to go to jail for life.

158
00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:22,480
Speaker 2: That said, Tim Janssen, you're right about these problems in

159
00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,400
Speaker 2: some of the state's evidence. I want you to go

160
00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,160
Speaker 2: through it one more time, and I'm going to clear

161
00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,280
Speaker 2: up one thing. It's my understanding, and everybody on the panel,

162
00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,040
Speaker 2: for Pete's sake, jump in. Okay, we're not giving a

163
00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:40,400
Speaker 2: speech at Harvard Law graduation you can break in, especially

164
00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,720
Speaker 2: about that Google search that was conducted. Now you do

165
00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,640
Speaker 2: know that witness says the Google search was at the

166
00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:51,240
Speaker 2: best of read. But continue take it from the top,

167
00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:52,520
Speaker 2: Tim Jansen.

168
00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,920
Speaker 7: All right, So the injuries in order for a shoe

169
00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,600
Speaker 7: to come off a person when they're hit by a car,

170
00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,280
Speaker 7: you see, has to be a high level speed, usually

171
00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:02,959
Speaker 7: fifty miles per hour or more.

172
00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:05,600
Speaker 2: The car was only going twenty.

173
00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,440
Speaker 7: Four miles per hour when she backed up, according to

174
00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:13,240
Speaker 7: the black box of the car. Now, those injuries are inconsistent.

175
00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,880
Speaker 7: Where did that dog bite come from? And I suggest

176
00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:21,760
Speaker 7: to you that the rear tail light that was not

177
00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,160
Speaker 7: found until after it was in the custody of the police,

178
00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:28,840
Speaker 7: and then it was found later, not that night. Later,

179
00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,439
Speaker 7: so it opens up an argument that that might have

180
00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,920
Speaker 7: been planted, like the Mark Furman globe was planted.

181
00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,080
Speaker 2: Okay, let's just follow what you're saying. And I love

182
00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,800
Speaker 2: how defense attorneys will just throw something out. Let's follow

183
00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,760
Speaker 2: it through to its natural and logical conclusion. You're saying

184
00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,360
Speaker 2: the tail light wasn't found that night in the dark,

185
00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:53,400
Speaker 2: in the snow. Okay, understandable. It was found later and

186
00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,000
Speaker 2: it was in police custody. So the conclusion, the logical

187
00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:01,760
Speaker 2: conclusion to what you're saying, is that the police used

188
00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:06,800
Speaker 2: that till like this till white pieces to frame Karen Reid.

189
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,240
Speaker 2: That they all got together and they framed Karen Reid.

190
00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:12,720
Speaker 2: Is that believable? Is that what you're saying.

191
00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,440
Speaker 7: What I'm saying is there's a possibility that the people

192
00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,440
Speaker 7: in the house who are law enforcement people may have

193
00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:24,240
Speaker 7: moved evidence, changed evidence. We know the McKay bled about

194
00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,760
Speaker 7: the Google search, right, we know about the dog. They

195
00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:29,840
Speaker 7: got rid of the dog after this incident, and it

196
00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,360
Speaker 7: looked like a bitite mark on the victim's block.

197
00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,400
Speaker 2: I guess they did. And you mentioning the sale of

198
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:35,720
Speaker 2: the home.

199
00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,680
Speaker 7: They sold a house to fifty thousand, and they cleaned

200
00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,679
Speaker 7: the floor up downstairs. They removed the whole flooring.

201
00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,440
Speaker 2: Question to you, Lauren Colin, what's happening at the courthouse

202
00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:45,000
Speaker 2: right now?

203
00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:49,120
Speaker 5: So while you guys were talking Karen Reid, Alan Jackson

204
00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,680
Speaker 5: and David Yanninet Yanetti just walked by. Everybody was cheering

205
00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,600
Speaker 5: and shouting three Karen Reid, Nancy, if you don't mind,

206
00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,840
Speaker 5: I just want to clarify about the tail light and

207
00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,200
Speaker 5: why that sem to be so contentious. So the crime

208
00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,440
Speaker 5: scene at thirty four A Fairview, it was never ever

209
00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,480
Speaker 5: closed off. Civilians were walking around, pulling up on the

210
00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,520
Speaker 5: driveway by eight am. And the whole thing is the

211
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:17,200
Speaker 5: tail light pieces were not found until after Trooper Proctor

212
00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,720
Speaker 5: and Buchanic showed up at Karen Reid's parents' house in Dighton,

213
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,439
Speaker 5: toled the car to the sally Port. While it was

214
00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,679
Speaker 5: at the sally Port about I want to say it

215
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,400
Speaker 5: took about maybe forty five minutes to get back the

216
00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:35,520
Speaker 5: certain team back to thirty four A Fairview and.

217
00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,880
Speaker 6: That's when they pulled the pieces of the.

218
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,920
Speaker 5: Tail light out and the shoe and there's tons of

219
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,720
Speaker 5: snow on the ground, and I think that is where

220
00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:45,360
Speaker 5: people were like, well, wait a minute.

221
00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,280
Speaker 6: They didn't pull the tailight out until after Trooper Proctor

222
00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:49,400
Speaker 6: got a hold of the vehicle.

223
00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,000
Speaker 5: And then the other thing is that Officer Nick Barrows

224
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:57,720
Speaker 5: of the Dyton Police, who has no connection whatsoever, testified

225
00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,120
Speaker 5: a few days ago that when he saw the tail

226
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:04,559
Speaker 5: at Karen Reid's parents' house, it was only cracked, not shattered.

227
00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,000
Speaker 5: Cracked at a small piece was missing.

228
00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,080
Speaker 4: Jennifer McCabe calls John O'Keeffe shortly after leaving the bar

229
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,360
Speaker 4: with directions to her brother in law, Brian Albert's home.

230
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,720
Speaker 4: At twelve fifteen am, McCabe and several other party goers

231
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,320
Speaker 4: see Reid's black suv parked outside. When the couple has

232
00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,640
Speaker 4: not come in fifteen minutes later, McCabe text then calls

233
00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,760
Speaker 4: John o'keeff to confirm they arrived. McCabe texts four more

234
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,120
Speaker 4: times after the call, but O'Keefe doesn't respond. McCabe assumes

235
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,440
Speaker 4: the couple decided to skip the party. Between one thirty

236
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,280
Speaker 4: am and two am, after party attendees clear out of

237
00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:35,240
Speaker 4: the Albert's home.

238
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:36,240
Speaker 2: Wow okay more.

239
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,280
Speaker 8: On the way to Brian Albert's after party, Karen Reid

240
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,720
Speaker 8: and John O'Keeffe are locked in an intense argument. The

241
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,080
Speaker 8: couple sits in reads car outside the alberts home fighting

242
00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,040
Speaker 8: and they decide to part ways for the evening. Karen

243
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,480
Speaker 8: Reid lets John o'keeff out of the car and heads

244
00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,320
Speaker 8: back to their house, expecting her boyfriend to find.

245
00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:55,000
Speaker 2: His own way home.

246
00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,680
Speaker 8: At one am, Reid leaves O'Keeffe a voicemail before she

247
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,760
Speaker 8: goes to bed. In the message, read tells O'Keefe, he's

248
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,800
Speaker 8: a fucking loser and quote, I hate you John Wow.

249
00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:10,560
Speaker 2: Okay. Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us, a high profile SOCO

250
00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,400
Speaker 2: analyst joining us from LA, author of deal Breaker, went

251
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,560
Speaker 2: to work on a relationship and went to walk away,

252
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,200
Speaker 2: very important for today's analysis. You can find her at

253
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:26,720
Speaker 2: doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Doctor Bethany with their volatile history,

254
00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:31,480
Speaker 2: their argument just before he's killed. Of course they're looking

255
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,280
Speaker 2: at her, of course, Nancy.

256
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,080
Speaker 9: And as you know, and I know, over fifty percent

257
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,160
Speaker 9: of all domestic violence occurs after one or more members

258
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,520
Speaker 9: of the couple have been drinking, and in this case,

259
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:48,200
Speaker 9: both of them were drinking, and alcohol makes people extremely disregulated.

260
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,360
Speaker 9: They lose perpet perspective, they get paranoid, they begin to

261
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:57,560
Speaker 9: develop very intense hatred towards their partners. And Karen Reid

262
00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,960
Speaker 9: may be suffering from something called borderline person disorder. And

263
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:05,360
Speaker 9: what we see with borderline is that there are fractured relationships,

264
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:12,240
Speaker 9: explosive outbursts, impulsivity. And if she was really angry at

265
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:16,120
Speaker 9: him and she was drunk, I can see her stepping

266
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,280
Speaker 9: on the gas pedal, I can see her throwing it

267
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,200
Speaker 9: in reverse and this idea about the sister in law

268
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,800
Speaker 9: looking up hypothermia. Nancy, you know, because you're a prosecutor,

269
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,600
Speaker 9: how calmon it is for people who commit a crime

270
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,840
Speaker 9: to start frantically calling all their family members and then

271
00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,680
Speaker 9: the family members start to concoct this big lie to

272
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,000
Speaker 9: cover up for the crime. They panic instead of thinking. So,

273
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,600
Speaker 9: I think the right wing the big conspiracy is actually

274
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:48,080
Speaker 9: amongst Karen Read's friends, not amongst the police. And in

275
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,360
Speaker 9: terms of the jury, Nancy, you know that when people

276
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,400
Speaker 9: become paranoid and believe in conspiracies, any evidence to the

277
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,320
Speaker 9: contrary of what they've already made up their mind about

278
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,880
Speaker 9: just solidifies their own bas So I think it's a

279
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:05,320
Speaker 9: losing case from that perspective. If the jury thinks, you know,

280
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,879
Speaker 9: that there's this conspiracy, they're not going to listen to

281
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,800
Speaker 9: the evidence. It's all going to just you know, calcify

282
00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,320
Speaker 9: and reinforce what they already think about the case.

283
00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:20,479
Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum joining me, Cold Case Foundation founder and forensic expert, Cheryl,

284
00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:22,760
Speaker 2: I want you to take a listen to this.

285
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,240
Speaker 4: Just before five am, Karen Reid wakes up and quickly

286
00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,119
Speaker 4: realizes his boyfriend John O'Keeffe isn't in their home or

287
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,360
Speaker 4: answering his phone. Read wakes O'Keefe's niece and ask her

288
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,720
Speaker 4: to call him while she contacts people they were with

289
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,800
Speaker 4: last night. Reid paces down a hallway while she speaks

290
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,480
Speaker 4: with Jennifer McCabe and O'Keefe's friend Harry Roberts. O'Keefe's niece

291
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,399
Speaker 4: over hears Reid ask what if I did something? What

292
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,200
Speaker 4: if a snowplow hit him? Read tells Roberts, I don't

293
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,000
Speaker 4: remember anything from last night. We drank so much. I

294
00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:51,600
Speaker 4: don't remember anything, you know.

295
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,280
Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum guys, founder of the Cold Case Research Institute

296
00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:01,399
Speaker 2: and stars seven podcasts. Cheryl think I've detailed several times

297
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,639
Speaker 2: for you. An evening when my husband David had to

298
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,040
Speaker 2: go out of town for work, and he always texts

299
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,080
Speaker 2: me when he lands, when he goes to supper, when

300
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,439
Speaker 2: he leaves supper, and before he goes to bed. He

301
00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:17,679
Speaker 2: didn't text. He didn't text after he landed, and that's uncharacteristic.

302
00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:23,040
Speaker 2: I was up till three am, calling hospitals. I'm ade

303
00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,600
Speaker 2: d who you know? My colleague helped me. We were

304
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:28,959
Speaker 2: both up till three in the morning, trying to make

305
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,639
Speaker 2: sure David Lynch and I had a heart attack or

306
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:35,280
Speaker 2: got wopped on the head. I never said the words

307
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:36,640
Speaker 2: what if I did something?

308
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:41,160
Speaker 10: Correct, Nancy, there is so much with this case. If

309
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:46,720
Speaker 10: you follow her actions, her wording when she decided to

310
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,000
Speaker 10: go back to look for him where she pointed out,

311
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,120
Speaker 10: you know exactly where she dropped him all the last

312
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:55,680
Speaker 10: time she saw him.

313
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,520
Speaker 6: That's bad. But here's the other thing.

314
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,760
Speaker 10: Every single time this case tells you to go right,

315
00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:04,320
Speaker 10: it forces you to look left as well.

316
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:13,680
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

317
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,240
Speaker 11: Friends gather at a Massachusetts bar on a Friday night

318
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,520
Speaker 11: as a heavy winter storm rips through the town of Canton.

319
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,240
Speaker 11: John O'Keeffe and his girlfriend Karen Reid agree to meet

320
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,760
Speaker 11: friends back at their house on thirty four Fairview Road,

321
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,760
Speaker 11: but they never arrive. Friends inside claim to see a

322
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,400
Speaker 11: black SUV pull up to the driveway, but neither O'Keeffe

323
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:41,679
Speaker 11: or red join the party inside.

324
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,400
Speaker 2: Okay, by to Cheryl McCollum joining us, Cheryl, I want

325
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:51,399
Speaker 2: you to also hear what else has been testified to that,

326
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:52,760
Speaker 2: Karen Reid said. Listen.

327
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,600
Speaker 8: At five o seven am, Karen Reid backs out of

328
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,680
Speaker 8: John O'Keeffe's driveway in her SUV and hits his car

329
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,600
Speaker 8: in her haste to look for her missing boyfriend. Reid

330
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,760
Speaker 8: doesn't stop and meets Carrie Roberts and Jennifer McKay at

331
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,320
Speaker 8: mckabe's home. Roberts gets behind the wheel of Reed's SUV

332
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,000
Speaker 8: and drives to Brian Albert's home, where they partied the

333
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,119
Speaker 8: night before. On the way, Reid mentions her tail light

334
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,200
Speaker 8: as busted and voices concerned she may have hit O'Keefe.

335
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,080
Speaker 8: As the women drive down Fairview Road, read spots Jona

336
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,840
Speaker 8: O'Keeffe's body lying crumpled in the snow outside Albert's home.

337
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:30,320
Speaker 2: Listen, I want to believe everybody's innocent, as does the Constitution.

338
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,040
Speaker 2: But how why would you say? What if I did

339
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,360
Speaker 2: something I can't remember? Like I was telling you earlier,

340
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,480
Speaker 2: I didn't say that the night I couldn't find David.

341
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,119
Speaker 2: What if I did something? I assumed he had a

342
00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:47,399
Speaker 2: car accent or some other horrible event had occurred. And

343
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:51,439
Speaker 2: now she says or tail light is busted and she

344
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,160
Speaker 2: knows where to find his body.

345
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,920
Speaker 6: That's bad, Nancy, the whole thing is bad.

346
00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,040
Speaker 10: Hit the car in the driveway, as of right now, No,

347
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 10: we don't know how the man died. And again I've

348
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,960
Speaker 10: said it's like Casey Anthony. Everybody had a theory that

349
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,760
Speaker 10: the baby drowned, the baby got the mama's drugs, whatever.

350
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:12,680
Speaker 6: Right now, we do not.

351
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,040
Speaker 10: Know how John o'keeith was killed.

352
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:15,960
Speaker 2: We don't know.

353
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 10: You've got an officer that is the lead detective that

354
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 10: did not go to the crumb. He's got an avoid

355
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:25,439
Speaker 10: of time on the phone when he told her car

356
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,400
Speaker 10: he is seen at the back tail light. You've got

357
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 10: injuries to his arm that it doesn't line up to

358
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 10: me with one tail light. Also, the other injuries you

359
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,040
Speaker 10: know of the car. Are his ribs busted? Is his

360
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:43,400
Speaker 10: abdomen bruised? Are his legs you know, filled with road rash? No,

361
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,359
Speaker 10: a lot of this is not making sense to him.

362
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, Cheryl, None of that is that does

363
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:53,639
Speaker 2: not necessarily apply, because why would he have road rash

364
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,680
Speaker 2: when you're dragged along asphalt. Because he wasn't dragged along asphalt.

365
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 2: According to the State, he was hit when Karen Reid

366
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:06,400
Speaker 2: was backing up and he fell and he died of hypothermia.

367
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 2: So road rash has no place in this analysis. However,

368
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 2: the other injuries to his body. Joining me, Doctor Kendall

369
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 2: Crown's chief medical Examiner, Terran County. That's Fort Worth, lecturer

370
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 2: at Burnett's School of Medicine at TCU, DTR Crowns, thank

371
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,399
Speaker 2: you for being with us. I've got a question to

372
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,919
Speaker 2: you about those apparently bite marks. I don't know what

373
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 2: they are, but they are purported to be bite marks,

374
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 2: doctor Crowns. When you are bitten, Let's just pretend he

375
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 2: was bitten. Let's go with that. Can you, a doctor

376
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 2: look at the injury on the arm and determine how

377
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:50,640
Speaker 2: long it has been healing. In other words, did those

378
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,400
Speaker 2: bite marks occur that night or were they from an

379
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 2: earlier incident? And if they did occur that night, in

380
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 2: what scenario? We know nothing about him being exposed to

381
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 2: the dog that not. But that aside. Can you look

382
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 2: at injuries such as these determine the time they occurred.

383
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 12: So you can look at injuries and you can note

384
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 12: whether there's healing occurring, like scab formation. Also, you want

385
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,639
Speaker 12: to look for hemorrhage because they could be post mortem.

386
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 12: So if you have no blood associated with the wounds

387
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 12: or no vital tissue reaction, then you're kind of dealing

388
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 12: with wounds that occurred after death. But if you look

389
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 12: at them and they're fresh, there's no scab formation. They

390
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,680
Speaker 12: probably occurred at or around the time the individual died.

391
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 12: And looking at those wounds on the forearms with the

392
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 12: paired kind of abrasion marks that you're seeing, especially on

393
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 12: the one forearm picture, those are very interesting to me

394
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 12: because they do look like those paired wounds from canines,

395
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 12: but they are talking about a German shepherd, so usually

396
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 12: German shepherds have a really good bite grip and they'll

397
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 12: they'll dig in and they'll tear chunks out. So those wounds,

398
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,679
Speaker 12: if they are from a dog, they're very superficial. And

399
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 12: they also some of the wounds are the way that

400
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 12: the canines would be paired. Some are closer than others,

401
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 12: so it doesn't doesn't quite fit with it being the

402
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 12: same dog. If they are indep bite marks.

403
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 2: Wow, Doctor Kendel Crowns, it's amazing the way you analyze that.

404
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 2: Would you agree that they look like dog bites or

405
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 2: do you disagree?

406
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 12: So in the pictures that I've been able to see,

407
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 12: the canines are the ones that usually cause those paired

408
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 12: scratch marks, and then usually the incisors are between those

409
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 12: two canines, so you'll get the paired bite marks, but

410
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 12: with the centralized incisors in between them scratching along. So

411
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 12: when you have those kind of superficial scratches from the canines,

412
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,360
Speaker 12: you also get the in between the canines, you'll get

413
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 12: the incisors scratching as well. So look at those. They

414
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 12: do look like paired, parallel in sized or abrasions, but

415
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 12: then there is no incis or wounds between the canine wounds,

416
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 12: so they they're interesting. They have the appearance of dog bites,

417
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 12: but I don't think they are because they're plus, you've

418
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 12: got differences in the pairings as well. You have some

419
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 12: that are wide, some that are close. So it's it's odd.

420
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 12: It doesn't look like a dog per se to me.

421
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,080
Speaker 2: Now that you're saying all that, I understand by looking

422
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 2: at these photos, I didn't know what to make of it.

423
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,239
Speaker 2: I didn't have a trained eye looking at it. I

424
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:42,199
Speaker 2: hear you. We keep hearing Cheryl McCollum stating that we

425
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 2: don't know cause of death. We don't know cause of death.

426
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 2: We do no cause of death. Blunt force trauma and

427
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 2: hypothermia we do no cause of death. So I don't

428
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 2: know why you're saying that, But I do want to

429
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 2: address the dog bites, the alleged dog bites. From what

430
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,400
Speaker 2: I'm here from our expert, doctor Keil Crowns, they may

431
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 2: or may not be dog bites. Some evidence suggests they are,

432
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 2: some evidence suggests they're not. However, I don't have a time,

433
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 2: and those are not the cause of death. Did the

434
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 2: dog bites, the alleged but dog bites, Did they happen

435
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 2: the day before? Did they happen two days before? Did

436
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 2: they happen day of? What about that, Cheryl?

437
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 6: Well, here's what I noticed.

438
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 10: There are patterns, and they're going in somewhat different directions.

439
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 10: They are spaced out very odd. They're different sizes, they're

440
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 10: different wits, they're different links. That's like a magical tail light.

441
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,239
Speaker 10: If they're trying to tell me that's what happened here,

442
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 10: that doesn't make any sense. And what I mean by

443
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 10: we don't know how he died, I mean the injury

444
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 10: to the back of his head. Where did that come from?

445
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 10: They have it told us hit? Where did you know

446
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 10: he get from outside the vehicle into the snow. We

447
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 10: don't know how that happened. Did it happen because he

448
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 10: was it by a car, Did it happen because he

449
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 10: was it with the you know machine that moves the snow,

450
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 10: or did somebody toss him there?

451
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 6: We don't know.

452
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 10: We know that most of the time is somebody's hit

453
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,239
Speaker 10: going twenty four miles an hour, they don't come out

454
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 10: of their shoes. We know that when first sawing, they said, well,

455
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 10: it looks like you got beat up. I mean, we

456
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 10: have not heard any evidence of this is the injuries

457
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 10: that line up with the vehicle. This is how the

458
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 10: injury to the back of his head occurred. We don't

459
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 10: know that yet. We hadn't heard it.

460
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 11: An urgent search ensues, but Officer O'Keefe is shortly found

461
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 11: dead in the freezing snow. Girlfriend Karen Reid has heard

462
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 11: saying I hit him, I hit him, I hit him.

463
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 2: Is that true? Did she say I hit him? I

464
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 2: hit him, I hit him? Okay, joining me in all

465
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 2: star panel, but straight back out to Tim Jansen, criminal

466
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 2: defense attorney, former federal prosecutor. There are multiple reports of

467
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 2: her so I hit him. There are reports from O'Keefe's niece.

468
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 2: Must consider the source. Did I do something what if

469
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 2: I did something I can't remember. We keep getting from

470
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 2: different sources that Karen Reid intimated she hit O'Keefe. Now,

471
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 2: if it was just one source, I could discredit it.

472
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 2: But if it's from multiple sources that are separate in

473
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 2: time and space and I connected to each other, then

474
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: it's hard to discount Karen Reids saying I hit him.

475
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 2: What if I hit him and taking the going directly

476
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 2: to where his body is, knowing where his body is,

477
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 2: that's bad, Nancy.

478
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 7: I have a theory that fits all the evidence in

479
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 7: this case. Brian Higgins was flirtatious with Karen Reid, sending

480
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 7: text messages her boyfriend, and Karen Reid found.

481
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 2: Out about it.

482
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 7: They had a bad argument about it. They were arguing

483
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 7: about the text messages to Brian Higgins. Brian Higgins is

484
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 7: a huge man, bigger than Proctor Brian Reid. O'keef gets

485
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 7: dropped off. He decides he's going to confront Brian Higgins

486
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 7: in the house. While he's in the house, there's a

487
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 7: fight ensues. He punches and knocks out o'keef. He goes

488
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 7: down and the dog attacks him, and while he's attacked

489
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 7: down there Reed is already gone. The body is carried

490
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 7: out to this location. Is how one shoe probably came off.

491
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 7: That's how that fits the whole scenario of the fight,

492
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 7: the injuries.

493
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 2: Okay, Cheryl, that's a great story that he just told.

494
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 2: But where is it coming from. I mean, I could argue, Hey,

495
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: I think I know what happened. A little green man

496
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 2: from Mars zoomed in. He clunked o'keef in the head

497
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 2: and threw him in the snow, and then he bit

498
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 2: him in the arm and then went back to Mars. Yeah,

499
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 2: is it possible, I guess Is it probable?

500
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 13: No?

501
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,719
Speaker 2: Do I have any shred until of evidence to support that?

502
00:29:59,120 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 9: No?

503
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 2: But it's it's a theory. So all of these theories

504
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 2: I'm ount to nothing. I can't go to trial with

505
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 2: a theory. I've got to have evidence. Remember that evidence.

506
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 10: Well, let's talk about the evidence, how it was collected,

507
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 10: when it was collected, and by who. You're talking about

508
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 10: somebody that found the head light or the telllight that

509
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 10: we know light on the sand light under oath about

510
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 10: knowing the abots. You've got somebody that did not go

511
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 10: to the crime scene but then suddenly finds the biggest

512
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 10: piece of evidence that supposedly came from there. It is

513
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 10: the most poorly worked criminal investigation that I've seen of

514
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 10: a death of a police officer. You've got police in

515
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 10: the home that knew this man that never came outside. Well,

516
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 10: that don't look good. You've got a police officer that

517
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 10: knows these people that weren't this case and made a

518
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 10: decision in sixteen hours without going to the crime scene,

519
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 10: without interview any more than people.

520
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 2: Okay, I've got a problem with the lead investigator not

521
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 2: going to the crime scene, A big problem. Joining me

522
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: now outside the courthouse. I think we've got Lauren Collin up. Lauren.

523
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 2: I'm trying to figure out all the times that Karen

524
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 2: Reid intimated she hit John O'Keefe. And again, I don't

525
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 2: have a dog in the fight. I want the truth.

526
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 2: I don't care if she did it or didn't do it.

527
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 2: I want the right person to go to jail. I

528
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 2: don't know her. I wouldn't know her if she'd bit

529
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 2: me in the neck. But that said she, according to

530
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 2: multiple witnesses, stated I hit him. I hit him. What

531
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 2: if I did something? Can all of those statements be discounted?

532
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 6: Yes, Nancy.

533
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 5: While the defense is explaining as she simply asked a

534
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 5: question over and over. And I want to point out

535
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 5: that during Jennifer McCabe's grand jury testimony, she spoke of

536
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 5: Karen Reid asking the question, could I have hit him

537
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 5: over eleven times and not why? And did Jennifer McCabe

538
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 5: state in the grand jury testimony Karen Reid stated officially.

539
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 6: I hit him. I hit him. I hit him.

540
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 5: So I think that is where a lot of people

541
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 5: are confused.

542
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

543
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 2: Too, Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us renowned psychologists joining us

544
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 2: out of la Doctor Bethany again, when I couldn't find

545
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 2: David the night he was out of town, I never

546
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 2: said what if I killed him? What if? That thought

547
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 2: never occurred to me to say that, right, So, whether

548
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,959
Speaker 2: she said what if I did it? What if I

549
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 2: hit him? How did she even know he was hit?

550
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 2: How did she know? How did she know he didn't

551
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: wasn't in a car accident, or didn't die of alcohol poisoning.

552
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: How did she even know he was dead? How did

553
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 2: she know he was hurt? Why did she keeps saying

554
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 2: what if I hit him? To me, that means I

555
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: hit him.

556
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 9: It's like OJ Simpson writing the book If I Did

557
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 9: It Right, It has similar overtone. Nancy, we have to

558
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 9: recognize that the brawl, the fight that went on between

559
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 9: the two of them, probably went on for hours, maybe

560
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 9: even days. There was a lot of alcohol involved, and

561
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 9: so there will be a lot of unexplained injuries because

562
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 9: that's probably not the only place that they had an altercation. Right,

563
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 9: they may have been fighting at the home before they

564
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 9: even got to the bar. Secondly, when she says what

565
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 9: if I hit him? What if I hit him, she

566
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 9: probably was extremely inebriated at that point, so she wasn't

567
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 9: safeguarding what she was saying to other people. But as

568
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 9: she starts to sober up, as her blood alcohol level drops,

569
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 9: now she says that she can't remember what happens. So

570
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 9: she's beginning to linger amnesia. That's very, very common for

571
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 9: criminals to say, well, I can't remember what happens, so

572
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 9: they're kind of trying to come up with a medical

573
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 9: diagnosis of amnesia in order to cover their tracks. So

574
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 9: let's think about the blood alcohol level dropping as her

575
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 9: exclamation exclamation starts to change.

576
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 2: Well, there is more hard evidence.

577
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 4: Listen data from Karen Reid's SUV shows the vehicle outside

578
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 4: Brian Albert's home until about twelve forty five am. While

579
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 4: outside the home, the vehicle data indicates that the Lexus

580
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 4: travels backward for sixty feet at twenty four miles per hour.

581
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 4: The SUV's tail light is broken and pieces of the

582
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 4: light are found outside Brian albert home. Testing shows O'Keefe's

583
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 4: hair is found on the bumper of Reed's Lexus and

584
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,399
Speaker 4: his DNA is found on the tail light. Investigators find

585
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 4: remnants of a cocktail in bits of a broken drinking

586
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 4: glass on the SUV's bumper.

587
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:51,240
Speaker 2: Hold everything, Lauren Conlin, DNA leads, you can't fight with DNA.

588
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 2: He didn't tell me his DNA is on the tail

589
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 2: light and his hair is on her car bumper. So

590
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 2: to further or the big police conspiracy, I would have

591
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 2: to believe police actually got one of John O'Keefe's hairs

592
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 2: and put it on her car bumper and somehow got

593
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 2: his DNA on her tail light.

594
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 6: Really, the hair test it has not come back.

595
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 5: Additionally, there was actually no blood found on the tail

596
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 5: light either.

597
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,359
Speaker 6: So I want to also point out this hair that

598
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 6: was found on the car.

599
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 5: That car traveled thirty miles from Canton to Dighton and

600
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 5: then and then back.

601
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 1: The Cantons theories are not evidence.

602
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 13: The idea of the multiple Police Department, EMT's fire personnel,

603
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 13: the medical examiner, and prosecuting agencies adjoining on taking it

604
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 13: by a vast conspiracy should be seen for what it is,

605
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 13: completely contrary to the evidence and a desperate attempt to

606
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 13: reassign guilt.

607
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 2: Doctor Kendall Crowns, I'm trying to determine the truth, just

608
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 2: like everybody else's. If his DNA is on her bumper,

609
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,839
Speaker 2: be it his hair, his blood ud To believe there

610
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 2: was a cover up, someone would have had to have

611
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 2: gotten O'Keefe's DNA and put it on her bumper. That

612
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: is a heck of a cover up. How could that

613
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 2: even be done, Doctor Kendall Crowns. The same thing was

614
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 2: argued in OJ Simpson. How could it have been done

615
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 2: to get.

616
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 12: His hair or his blood or DNA samples onto the

617
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 12: broken tail light onto the bumper of the car without

618
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 12: it having been from him being hit by the car.

619
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 12: It would have to have been taken. It'd be a

620
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 12: multi factorial cover up involving multiple individuals. They would have

621
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 12: to get samples from the medical examiner or a crime

622
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 12: scene personnel that they would then take and smear onto

623
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,919
Speaker 12: the bumper and onto the tail light. It would be

624
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 12: multiple individuals working together, coordinated to be able to pull

625
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 12: that off. When it appears to me like you got

626
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 12: hit by a car and then just got run over

627
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 12: it by.

628
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 2: Guys, what are the arguments on both sides? Listen?

629
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 8: The prosecution asserts that after an intense argument, a drunken

630
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 8: Karen Reid intentionally reversed into her boyfriend John O'Keeffe and

631
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 8: left him in the snow to die outside Brian Albert's home.

632
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 8: Reid's defense says Reid dropped O'Keefe off at a party

633
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 8: with three people in attendants who had motives, opportunity, and

634
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 8: means to attack John Keith. The defense attributes O'Keefe's injuries

635
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 8: to a beating and bites from the Alberts aggressive German shepherd.

636
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 2: They say that any.

637
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 8: Evidence suggesting otherwise is part of a cover up orchestrated

638
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 8: by the many law enforcement officials present that night.

639
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 2: Much has been made by crime sleuth regarding the so

640
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 2: called mirror image of Karen Reid's car. Many claims that

641
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 2: video has been edited. Listen.

642
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 4: Video of Karen Reads lex from inside the Cannon Police

643
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 4: station garage is shown in court, but it has an anomaly.

644
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 4: The video is inverted a mirror image, making the driver's

645
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 4: side appear to be the passenger side on the video. However,

646
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 4: the time stamp on the video is not a mirror image.

647
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 4: Defense attorney Alan Jackson claims this is proof police manipulated

648
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 4: the video to help their case. Police say the vehicle

649
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 4: is never touched after being brought into the garage, but

650
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 4: the defense claims the mirror video is proof the police

651
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 4: can't be believed.

652
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 2: Lauren Colin, what is the argument about it? So called

653
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 2: mirror image on the lexus Karen Read's lexus?

654
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 5: Because I wasn't super concerned with the fact that it

655
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 5: was inverted.

656
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 6: I was more concerned with.

657
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 5: The fact that it was not addressed by the prosecution.

658
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 5: And then Alan Jackson had to ask Officer Buchanik, Hey,

659
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 5: why is this video skipping? Why does it appear to

660
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 5: be inverted? And he said, oh, oh, it's just motion censored.

661
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 5: That's why times are missing, That's why it did that.

662
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 5: And to me that just looked a little odd. Why

663
00:38:59,080 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 5: not address that?

664
00:38:59,719 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 3: Right.

665
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm trying to determine if there actually is

666
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 2: any evidence that a mirror image had been edited. But

667
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 2: what I'm hearing is no. I imagine the defense will

668
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 2: argue that and bring on evidence regarding that in their case.

669
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 2: Right now, the trial rages on in a court of law,

670
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 2: and we wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off,

671
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:29,760
Speaker 2: goodbye friend,