1 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: You're listening to Law and Order Criminal Justice System, a 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: production of Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts. 3 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 2: In the criminal justice System, landmark trials transcend the courtroom 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 2: to reshape the law. The brave many women who investigate 5 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 2: and prosecute these cases are part of a select group 6 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 2: that has defined American history. These are their stories. October sixth, 7 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty six, Manhattan Federal Court. 8 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 3: Testimony continue today in the trial of that mafia so 9 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 3: called Ruling Commission Government and informer Fredda Christopher testifying today 10 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 3: against Carmine Persico, the repeated boss of the Colombo crime family, 11 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 3: and on one of the defendants. 12 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: Fred de Christopher was testifying for the prosecution in the 13 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: Commission trial. He was Columbo family boss Carmine Persico's cousin 14 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: by marriage. De Christopher had hidden Persico in his home 15 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,479 Speaker 1: for months and had witnessed nearly everything the boss did, 16 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: and was now ready to give him up. Persico was 17 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: acting as his own attorney, and to Christopher's betrayal, struck 18 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: a deep nerve. 19 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 4: This sent Persco into orbit. I mean, if you've ever 20 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 4: heard the expression of looking daggers at somebody, this is 21 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 4: like looking surface missiles at somebody. What Persca wanted to 22 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 4: do was to cross examined for a to Christopher and 23 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:32,559 Speaker 4: intimidate him, to make him squirm. 24 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 5: You could just feel the venom and the hatred that 25 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:42,559 Speaker 5: Persico felt for De Christopher during his attempt to cross 26 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 5: examine him, that this former relative, former confidant had turned 27 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 5: against him and become a government witness. 28 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: As Persico cross examined, the sparks started to fly. 29 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 6: At times, they bickered with the familiarity comment only to 30 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 6: people who have lived again. Presco charged that someone bought 31 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 6: the Christopher's Long Island home for him. To Christopher, you 32 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 6: know I bought that house, Persico, You couldn't buy sucks. 33 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: Persico took every opportunity to impune, intimidate, and even threaten 34 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 1: the witness, behavior that in most trials would warrant an objection, 35 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: But in this instance, Persico's remarks only served to paint 36 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: him as the vindictive criminal that the government charged. 37 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 4: And finally, at one point Fred kind of lost his 38 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 4: temper and said, I know what you're trying to do 39 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 4: with me, Carmie, I know what you're trying to do. 40 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 4: And Perscoe very quietly in a low menacing voice said 41 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 4: the judge, you won't let me tell you what I 42 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,399 Speaker 4: want to do with you. And I remember leaning over 43 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 4: to John Savage and he just convicted himself because he 44 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 4: sounds like the mobster he is. 45 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 6: At one point, defense attorney Cardinal called for a mistrial. 46 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 6: He tried to Judge Richard Owen for allowing the Christopher 47 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 6: to call Persico Junior his nickname. The judge told both 48 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 6: men to try to be more formal. That didn't work 49 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 6: for long. 50 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 5: The Christopher wouldn't last long. Christico would have literally eaten 51 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 5: him alive. 52 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 7: You're not with the mob because you want to be. 53 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 8: It's the gangster that decides whether you're his associated on. 54 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 7: If you like your life, you will vote to acquit. 55 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 9: I'm aniseg and NICOLASI my father should have been a dead. 56 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: Man from Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts. This is lawn 57 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: Order criminal justice system. The Mafia Commission trial was well underway. 58 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: It was New York versus the Mob, a showdown decades 59 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: in the making. Four mob bosses and their underbosses had 60 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: been summoned to face multiple charges of bribery, extortion, and murder, 61 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: and to everyone's surprise, Carmine Persico had chosen to forego 62 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: an attorney and represent himself, and while he was no 63 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: trial lawyer, even prosecutors had to admit that his inexperience 64 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: was disarming and at times surprisingly effective. Here's Gil Childers. 65 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 8: He never got my name right. He never never said Childers. 66 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 8: He called me mister Child's, mister Children's. 67 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: Whatever the move left the Feds to wonder was Persico's 68 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: bravado and unpredictability all part of some master plan. 69 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 8: He did witness examinations, cross exams on his own and 70 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 8: stuff like that. People are saying, you know, why the 71 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 8: hell would he do that? Well, he had nothing to lose, right, 72 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 8: he got to stay in New York, and he got 73 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 8: to thumb his nose at the government little bit. Do 74 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 8: you think I'm a chief hood? You know, I'll show 75 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 8: you I can play in your ballpark. 76 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: Gil says that throughout the trial, Persico took every opportunity 77 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: to shake things up, knowing his defiance and street charm 78 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: had the potential to win over the jury of his 79 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: fellow New Yorkers. 80 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 8: Give him credit for this. He tried to act like 81 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,679 Speaker 8: a lawyer as best he could. In most instances. During 82 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 8: one of his cross examinations of a FBI surveillance witness. 83 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 8: He's up there and he says, Agent Jones, when you 84 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 8: were there doing that surveillance, Were you trying to record 85 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 8: this too? Did you have one of those diabolic microphones 86 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 8: meaning parabolic microphone is one of those diabolic microphones that 87 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 8: could pick up people down the street. A good scriptwriter 88 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 8: might come to a line like that, but it would 89 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 8: take some thought. 90 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: But his affable act was also partly a disguise. 91 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 8: During the part of the trial we were presenting the 92 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 8: evidence in the Galante homicide, Michael Bowden, who at the 93 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:56,919 Speaker 8: time of the murder was the medical examiner for the 94 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 8: City of New York, was testifying, and he had testified 95 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 8: that Galante had summer in the neighborhood of eighty plus 96 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 8: entry and exit wounds, tremendous carnage done to the bodies 97 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 8: of the three victims, And while Boden was still in 98 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 8: the stand, one of the defense counsel asked for a sidebar. 99 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: Acting as his own lawyer, Persigo was entitled to join 100 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: the meeting at the judge's bench, and it gave a 101 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: brief window into the mobster's true nature. 102 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 8: So just before the sidebar actually started. Persigo tugged on 103 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 8: my coat sleeve and said, mister childs them guys, you 104 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 8: think them guys died of gunshot wounds, and he dropped 105 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 8: his head onto my shoulder. I'm looking down at the 106 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 8: top of this guy's head as he's laughing after that 107 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 8: coming and going, holy, this is one six bitch. And 108 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 8: it was both a chilling and a sort of remarkable moment, 109 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 8: the musings of a psycho mob boss. 110 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: The fact was that Persigo had an meanstreak a mile wide, 111 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: and lead prosecutor Michael Cherdoff knew that if it was 112 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: put on full display, it could lead to the mobster's downfall. 113 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 4: Persco would occasionally demonstrate his anger or his disdain Carmim 114 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 4: Persco was the one who took it the most personally, 115 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 4: and it was the most personally antagonistic. 116 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: One of the most striking examples of his short fuse 117 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: was when Persico faced off against a government witness named 118 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: fred de Christopher. It was a showdown that had a 119 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: long time coming. 120 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 4: Most of the other defendants had been on tape, some 121 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 4: of them quite extensively. The one major defendant who was 122 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 4: not on tape was Carmim Persico, and that's because during 123 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 4: many of the events in question, he was a fugitive 124 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 4: in another case involving the Colombo family and had been 125 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 4: hiding out in the house of his cousin and her husband. 126 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 4: Her husband's name was fred D. Christopher, so he didn't 127 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 4: have him on tape. 128 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: Bob family's are notoriously loyal enclosed lipped when it comes 129 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: to cooperating with police, but apparently even the boss of 130 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: the family can eventually wear it his welcome. 131 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 4: At some point after we indicted the case, Fred De 132 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 4: Christopher called the FBI up and basically told them that 133 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 4: Persico was being harbored in his wife's house with him 134 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 4: and if they wanted him for this outstanding warrant, they 135 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 4: could come get him. So they did, they arrested him. 136 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 4: Fred's wife, who was Persco's cousin, stayed loyal to Persico 137 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 4: and not Fred and of course, at that point, having 138 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 4: betrayed Persico to Christopher, went into the witness protection program. 139 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: In exchange for his insider knowledge against the Columbo boss. 140 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: He received a new life far away from New York, 141 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: as well as a fifty thousand dollars reward for his trouble. 142 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 4: During that time Perscoe was in the house. He was 143 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 4: getting evidence about this other organized crime case involving the 144 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 4: College family, and he was reviewing it and commenting on 145 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 4: it to fred D Christopher and making admissions about various things. 146 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 4: So fred Christopher repeated things that Carmen Perscoe had said 147 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 4: that were very incriminating, including his involvement with the other 148 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 4: bosses and the commission. 149 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: Persico later called to Christopher's wife to the witness stand 150 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: in an attempt to both embarrass him and discredit his testimony. 151 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 4: Persico got her to say that Freda Christopher was totally 152 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 4: deaf and therefore Carmen Persico could not have talked to 153 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 4: him about these criminal acts because Freda Christopher could never 154 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 4: have heard them because he was deaf. He couldn't hear 155 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 4: a thing. 156 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: Michael had the pleasure of dispelling that theory in his cross, 157 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 1: complete with some theatrics. 158 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 4: I said, so, let me understand your testimony, missus D. Christopher. 159 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 4: You're saying that your husband fred is so deaf that 160 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 4: he couldn't hear Carmen Persiccoe. She goes, yes, absolutely, And 161 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 4: I said, so, like if your husband were sitting where 162 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 4: you are in the witness box, and I'm over here 163 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 4: at the podium. You're telling me that Fredia Christopher could 164 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 4: not hear anything I said. She goes, yes, he wouldn't 165 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 4: hear a word you said. And I'm looking at the 166 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:20,559 Speaker 4: jurors and they're rolling their eyes. They realized that the 167 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 4: defense story that Persco had Fred's wife tell is obviously 168 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 4: a lie. And I think that did Perso. 169 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: In the fact was that no matter how hard Persico 170 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: tried to undermine the Christopher's credibility, the details and the 171 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: witnesses sworn testimony were very hard to ignore. During direct exam, 172 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: Michael asked him if Persico ever said anything regarding the 173 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 1: assassination of Carmen Galante. The Christopher answered in the affirmative 174 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: and said that Persico had also admitted the Commission's involvement. 175 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: He also testified to being with Persico and a Colombo 176 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: underboss when they received the news that Galanti was dead. 177 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: Here's part of what he said in court. 178 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 10: Anthony got on the phone and all of a sudden, 179 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 10: a big smile came on his face and he said, 180 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 10: well it's over. He hung up, clapped his hands and said, 181 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 10: come on, let's go eat something. He asked Russell's sun, 182 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 10: what did he get so happy about? And was told 183 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 10: you'll read about it tomorrow in the papers. 184 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: De Christopher gave some of the most powerful testimony of 185 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: the trial. His account read like lines from a gangster movie. 186 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: But the prosecution also knew that hanging a case on 187 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 1: the testimony of an informant, especially one that had been 188 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: so richly rewarded for his cooperation, carried serious risks. Still, 189 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: when asked why he had turned on Persico, to Christopher's 190 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: words seemed to rick true. 191 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,719 Speaker 10: I think what they do is despicable. They are the 192 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 10: most despicable people on the face of the earth. 193 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: It remained to be seen if the jury would believe him. 194 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: During the commission trial, Bruno and Delocado sat in a 195 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: defendant seat for his role in the murder of Carma Galante. 196 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: He was the same man who held a gun to 197 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 1: FBI agent Joe Cantamasa's face in the wake of his 198 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: father Sonny Red's murder, one of the three capos gunned 199 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: down in nineteen eighty one. Once the prosecution had finished 200 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: presenting their evidence, the defense began putting on their own case, 201 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: and they came armed with something up their sleeve. A 202 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: surprise witness. 203 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 7: So we're sitting there and in walks this woman. Her 204 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 7: name was Babe Schroeder. She was in Delocado's. 205 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 1: Aunt, Charlotte Lang and her partner Pat Marshall were caught 206 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,119 Speaker 1: off guard, to say the least, who's. 207 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 7: I looked at him and be like, I don't know. 208 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 7: I looked a pack on. We're all like I don't know. 209 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 1: Somehow it seemed that Aunt Babe had eluded the FBI's investigation, 210 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 1: which could prove to be a costly mistake because Bruno's 211 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: aunt was ready to offer her nephew exactly the gift 212 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: he had been waiting for. 213 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:23,599 Speaker 7: She said it was impossible for Bruno to be involved 214 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 7: because he was with me all that day, so she 215 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 7: was the alibi that they were able to dig. 216 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: Up without evidence to disprove her testimony. The prosecution's case 217 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: against in Dellacado might collapse. 218 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 7: And for some reason, I turned and I looked at 219 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 7: the back of a courtroom which was like standing room 220 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,079 Speaker 7: only to say the least, and there was an agent 221 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 7: from the Columbus squad who I knew really well, and 222 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 7: he was kind of like jumping up and down and 223 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 7: waving at me to come back. So I did. I 224 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 7: got up and I walked to the back and he said, 225 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 7: we have her on tapes trying to start in the airlines. 226 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,839 Speaker 1: The FBI team in charge of the Colombo family knew 227 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: all about ant Babe. In fact, they even had the 228 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 1: proof that she had lied in other criminal cases. 229 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 7: So I came back and it was close to lunchtime 230 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 7: and I went over to Churchtov and it whispered in 231 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 7: his ear. I said, the Columbo family has tapes of 232 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 7: ant Babe committing crimes. And so Turtoff jumped up and said, 233 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 7: you're Onnrina. We'd like to break for lunch. And so 234 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 7: I went over to the office got the tapes from 235 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 7: this particular agent. This was like a masterpiece. That afternoon, 236 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 7: I said to Churtoff, if you go on to sit 237 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 7: on the Supreme Court, your best moment will be the 238 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 7: cross examination of ant Babe. 239 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: Turns out that the defensive surprise witness was no match 240 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: for Michael or the truth. 241 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 7: He just took her apart. We thought she was going 242 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 7: to faint because she kept taking a piece of paper 243 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 7: and using it as a fan. She was sweating, she 244 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 7: was nervous, and the judge she kept on saying do 245 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 7: you want to take a break? Church Off would say, now, ma'am, 246 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 7: just wait a second, take a deep breath. But he 247 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 7: caught her in every lie. 248 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 8: And she ended up utterly flummixed on the stand. I 249 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 8: think she ended up taking the fifth. It was a 250 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 8: devastating cross and it was just something that sort of 251 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 8: fell into our lap. 252 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: The defense was pulling out every trick in the book 253 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: to try and discredit even the smallest points in the 254 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: government's case. But time after time, Michael, John and Gil 255 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: were prepared, and it turns out they were capable of 256 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: dropping bombshells. 257 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 9: Up their own. 258 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 3: Prosecutors tonight are pushing ahead in their bid to break 259 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 3: the back of organized crime in New York. Charles Feldman 260 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 3: takes a look at today's proceedings in court. 261 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 11: His name is joe Cantaloupo, a self confessed former hood 262 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 11: in the Colombo crime family. 263 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: Again, here's John Savay's. 264 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 5: Old guy named Joey Cantalupo, who was another mob figure 265 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 5: who we had convinced to testify. 266 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 11: Now a government witness. Catalupo testified that after pulling off 267 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 11: various crimes, he had to pay a big percentage of 268 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 11: the take to Carmine Persico and his brother Alphons. 269 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 5: He helped to fill out sort of the understanding of 270 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 5: what the mob was, what role the Commission played in 271 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 5: the mob. 272 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: Joe Cantalupo had been a trusted associate of the Columbos 273 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: four years, and he had been privy to countless crimes, 274 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: schemes and even murder plots. Carmine Persico was said to 275 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: have trusted Cantalupo with his life, but unfortunately for the 276 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: Colombo boss, Cantalupo was also an informant for the FBI, 277 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: and his testimony in court proved devastating. Cantalupo had later 278 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: agreed to wear a wire to other mob meetings, the 279 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: audio of which was played during the trial. But the 280 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: most dramatic part of Cantalupo's testimony came when Carmine Persico 281 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: approached the stand to begin his cross examination. Persico could 282 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: barely contain his contempt for the man who had betrayed 283 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: him and his organization. In his effort to undercut Cantalupo. 284 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: Persico even went so far as to say that his 285 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: testimony was all just payback for getting beaten up by 286 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: Persico's brother a fight that had occurred decades before, and 287 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: once again the prosecutor sat quietly with that objection and 288 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 1: gave Persico the rope he needed to help convict himself. Eventually, 289 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: the defense rested their case. It was time for each 290 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: side to deliver their summations. 291 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 8: Two summations, right, there's initial summation by the government, then 292 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 8: there are defense summations, then there's a rebuttal summation. John 293 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 8: Savae did the initial summation by the government, which, as 294 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 8: I recall, was about four hours long. There were the 295 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 8: eight defense summations, and then Mike turned off to the 296 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 8: rebuttal summation. 297 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: John Savaye would be first up, followed by the defense. 298 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 5: It was a huge effort, major undertaking. You've got to 299 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 5: embrace the entirety of the record. You've got to weave 300 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 5: the evidence together with the law so that the jury 301 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 5: will understand. 302 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: And in a case this complicated, it required not just 303 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 1: a mastery of the material, but confidence, clarity, and poise. 304 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 5: I would be lying if I told you I was 305 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 5: just completely cool, calm and collected. That's what I was 306 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 5: on the outside, obviously, but inside I was very nervous 307 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 5: and had you know that kind of jittery feeling anyone feels, 308 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 5: an all trial lawyers feel when they're getting up to 309 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 5: do something important, and this was especially so. You know, 310 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 5: the courtroom was entirely packed with press, audience was full. 311 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 5: There were a lot of folks who were from the 312 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 5: US Attorney's office there to watch the summation. My wife 313 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 5: was there, so I very much felt the world is 314 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 5: watching what I'm about to do. 315 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: And so John began the summation that would hopefully sense 316 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 1: the fate of the American Mafia. 317 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 5: The most important thing that you're trying to do is 318 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 5: really connect with each of the jurors. They infiltrated and 319 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 5: controlled an entire industry in New York City, the concrete 320 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 5: construction industry. You want to make eye contact with them. 321 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 5: Part of the power of the Commission is how they 322 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:47,719 Speaker 5: control the family through enormous and unique accumulated power. You 323 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 5: want to feel that you are coming through to them 324 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 5: from your heart and your mind and explaining this complicated 325 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 5: case to them, all non lawyers in a way that 326 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 5: they can understand and digest and take in. The time 327 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 5: has come to place the responsibility for these crimes exactly 328 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 5: where it belongs. The government asks you to lay that 329 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 5: responsibility at the feet of these men. 330 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: John addressed the jury with the evidence, also acknowledging their courage, sacrifice, 331 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: and willingness to absorb the complicated details of the government's case. 332 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: In the end, it was a story of greed, violence, 333 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: and hopefully justice. When he came to the end of 334 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: his remarks, the most consequential summation in his young career, 335 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: there was no rapturous applause or flurry of congratulatory backslaps, 336 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: just as shuffling of notes as he returned to his seat. 337 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 1: People just don't even realize. I always just say, like, 338 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: does the jury see my hand shaking as I drink 339 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: that water? Because I had to have it a drinking 340 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 1: water before I'd give a summation. I was like, do 341 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: they see the shake in my hand? 342 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 7: Right now? 343 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 5: Exactly? We knew there was more to come, you know, 344 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,479 Speaker 5: then the defense gets its chance to sum up, and 345 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 5: then we have our rebuttals, and then you have the 346 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 5: jury instructions and jury deliberations. I knew even after we 347 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 5: finished the main summation that we still had much more 348 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 5: time to go. 349 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: It was a monumental trial, and the nation was watching. 350 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: Never before had the seemingly untouchable bosses been assembled to 351 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: answer such a litany of serious charges, and now it 352 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 1: was time to face the music. Each defense team would 353 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: make their final plea for acquittal. Suspence hung over the 354 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: courtroom like a storm cloud as defense lawyers approached the 355 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: jury to begin their summations, which, as Michael points out, 356 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: were wildly and consistent from their thin explanations for shady 357 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 1: business practices to outrite denials of individual crimes. 358 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 4: Interestingly, the defendants chose to admit it there is a 359 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 4: mafia because the evidence on tape was so clear you 360 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 4: would have looked silly not to and they tried to 361 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 4: defend based on well, there wasn't really an extortion the 362 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 4: so called victims really wanted to pay because it was 363 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 4: bid rigging. 364 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: With this one crucial admission that the mafia was real, 365 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: and they called the shots. Salerno, Corrallo and many of 366 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: their assembled underbosses looked resigned to their fates. 367 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 4: The exception to that Persigo who claimed that fred De 368 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,679 Speaker 4: Christopher Lyde and you know again that he was deaf, 369 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,120 Speaker 4: and Percuco said he wasn't on any tapes and there 370 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 4: was no photographic evidence, so he could not have been 371 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 4: involved in any of this because there was no direct 372 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 4: physical or tangible reverences involvement. 373 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 1: Right up to the end, Persico aimed to place spoiler 374 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: to the government's case, and by singling himself out, he 375 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 1: made it clear that he was willing to throw his 376 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: criminal colleagues under the bus if it meant his own acquittal. 377 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: But the prosecution was not ready to let him off easy. 378 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 5: We obviously at the time, were taking careful note. And 379 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 5: then Michael got up and did a masterful rebuttal, marching 380 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 5: through each of the counter theories that the defense had advanced. 381 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: Not only did the jury need the courage to do 382 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,239 Speaker 1: what the law required, but the courage to do what 383 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: no jury had ever done before convict the commission. 384 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 5: Part of what both Michael did in his rebuttal and 385 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 5: I did in the main summation was to ask the 386 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 5: jurors to sort of imagine being in their shoes and 387 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 5: being threatened in the way that they were, and what 388 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 5: that would have felt like had it been happening to you. 389 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: After the judge's charge, the jury of twelve New York 390 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,439 Speaker 1: citizens adjourned to delivery, and for both sides there was 391 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: nothing left to do. Except wait for a verdict. Here's 392 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: Gil Childers. 393 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 8: Once that jury charge happens from the judge, you are 394 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 8: absolutely out of control. You have no more levers of 395 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 8: control to exercise. I've always experienced a little bit of 396 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 8: relief that my job is done. I've done everything I can. 397 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 8: Now it's just wait and see. But also the most 398 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 8: anxious moments, because now you're on tinderhooks waiting for twelve 399 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 8: people whose names you don't even know, are going to 400 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 8: issue a verdict which is either going to validate several 401 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 8: years of your life or render it meaningless and render 402 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 8: you and your efforts of failure. And there's nothing more 403 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 8: you can say about it. 404 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: As reporters assembled outside the courtroom waiting for a word 405 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:05,439 Speaker 1: of a verdict, jury deliberations stretched from four days to 406 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: five and then six, and anxiety in the prosecutor's office 407 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 1: grew by the hour. 408 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 8: You want them to take their time, but you don't 409 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 8: want them to take too long. Goes into day three. 410 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 8: You know, well, okay, I'm still confident in the case. 411 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 8: But goes into the day four. Jeez, did we screw 412 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 8: up somehow? What's going on? 413 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 5: Periodically they would send out notes asking for some aspect 414 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 5: of the instructions to be reread or to see some evidence, 415 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 5: and it was hard to discern from those moments where 416 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 5: they were heading, what they were thinking. And obviously all 417 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 5: of that is happening in secret. Through those five days, 418 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,959 Speaker 5: we didn't really know what was going to happen. And 419 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 5: then finally we were in the office and got a 420 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 5: message that there was a verdict and that we bet 421 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 5: our head to the courtroom right away, and we trooped 422 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 5: in and the press was alerted to that fact, so 423 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 5: the entire courtroom quickly filled up. 424 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: Presiding Federal Judge Richard Owen solemnly stepped onto the bench 425 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: and invited the jurors into the courtroom. According to John 426 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: Savay's his face betrayed nothing. 427 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 5: Four lady of the jury stood up, and she was 428 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 5: sort of shaking with emotion. She knew that what she 429 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 5: was about to render was a very momentous verdict. Guilty, guilty, guilty. 430 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 11: Seven women and five men returned guilty verdicts against eight defendants, 431 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 11: including three godfathers of mafia families. 432 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 4: Once everyone was convicted on cent one, which is a 433 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 4: racketurning conspiracy, we knew we were home free. And then 434 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 4: everybody was convicted on everything. There was a lot of guilty, guilty, guilty. 435 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 8: It was over one hundred guilties uttered by the four. 436 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 11: For the first time, the government proved in court that 437 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 11: since nineteen thirty one, the rules and regulations of the 438 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 11: mafia have been set by a ruling elite comprised of 439 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 11: the heads of New York's mob families. 440 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 5: We were obviously ecstatic, but also doing our best to 441 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 5: kind of keep a poker face and just listen. The 442 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 5: jury was polled, they were all unanimous. They were excused 443 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 5: with the thanks of the court, and when they were 444 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 5: finally out of earshot, Michael Gill and I all had 445 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 5: a gigantic hug. 446 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 7: We did it. 447 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 5: We had done it exactly well. 448 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 12: Here in New York today, after five days of the liberation, 449 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 12: on anonymous federal court jury convicted three crime bosses of 450 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 12: serving on the so called Mafia Commission. Five lower ranking 451 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 12: mob figures were also convicted on all counts while carrying 452 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 12: out the commission's porters. Authorities had contended since nineteen thirties 453 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 12: that organized crime had a national board of directors carving 454 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 12: our territory and settling disputes. Now an FBI man says 455 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 12: that all the members are either in the grave or 456 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 12: had it to prison. 457 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 11: The jury also convicted Anthony and Delocado of helping to 458 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 11: kill mafia godfather Carmine Galante in nineteen seventy nine. It 459 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 11: is believed to be the first time anyone has been 460 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 11: brought to justice in this country for the slaying of 461 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 11: a mafia boss. 462 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: The sentences that the defendants now faced were daunting. 463 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 13: Seven of the mob biggies convicted here today face more 464 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 13: than three hundred years of jail time each. Anthony and 465 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 13: Delocado could get a forty year sentence for his role 466 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 13: as one of three trigger men who rubbed out Carmine 467 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 13: Galente and two others back in nineteen seventy nine. 468 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 8: Once the verdict came in, and for some period of 469 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 8: time afterwards, while the glow of success was still around. 470 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 8: One of the things I wasn't expecting was the thank 471 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 8: yous that I got from various people in law enforcement, 472 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 8: from people I knew well to agents I didn't know. 473 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 8: Was incredibly touching every time it happened. 474 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: Long the common collected face of the prosecution team, Michael 475 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: admits that he too felt an enormous sense of relief. 476 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 4: Because the stakes were very high. We'd been entrusted as 477 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 4: young lawyers with this major case. We didn't want to 478 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 4: let anybody down. And I think we had an enormous 479 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 4: sense of just Wow, we're relieved, and we're just over 480 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 4: joy that we've survived this. 481 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: As John explains, the success of the Commission case rested 482 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: on the enormous body of investigative work that had been 483 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: assembled over the course of not just years, but decades. 484 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 5: Long before Michael Gill and I got up in court, 485 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 5: this huge amount of work had been done. And you know, 486 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 5: if you think about it, the bravery of the agents 487 00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 5: who stole into a social club or who figured out 488 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 5: a way to get into the home of a mob 489 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 5: boss and get a bug up and running is incredible. 490 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 5: They were the ones on the front line doing those 491 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 5: very dangerous things. They're the ones who are doing the 492 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 5: laborious task of surveillance and tracking people down and taking 493 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 5: photographs at just the right moment that we then are 494 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 5: later able to use and weave together into the narrative 495 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,959 Speaker 5: that we told in the courtroom. 496 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,719 Speaker 1: As for Carmine Persico, his gamble to act as his 497 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: own attorney and go it alone, it came up snake eyes. 498 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 13: Colombo family boss Carmine Persico Junior may have been the 499 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 13: one to suffer most today. Earlier this week, he was 500 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 13: sentenced to thirty nine years in prison on a previous 501 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 13: racket's conviction. Persico couldn't even blame today's conviction on his lawyer, 502 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 13: since the mobster chose to act as his own attorney. 503 00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: Throughout the trial, each of the secutors reflected on what 504 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: this case meant to them and how it was a 505 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: game changer for their professional lives. 506 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 8: Obviously, it takes a certain amount of self confidence to 507 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 8: stand in front of a jury and present a case, 508 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 8: and it was fulfilling from a professional standpoint, But to 509 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 8: do a case of historic importance that thirty five years 510 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 8: later plus we're still talking about. 511 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 5: It, It was absolutely thrilling as a young lawyer to 512 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 5: work on a case that was as momentous as this case. 513 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 4: It really was a revolutionary moment in my career development, 514 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 4: and probably John and Gills as well. 515 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: The effect this verdict had on countless people in New 516 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: York City as a whole was clear. 517 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 4: I think it showed the American justice system functioning well 518 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 4: and justice getting done their. 519 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: Work on this case also bonded the men. Friendships reformed 520 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: that have lasted to this day. 521 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 5: We've all remained friends ever since. You couldn't possibly have 522 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 5: asked for better colleagues. Incredibly talented lawyers, crazy smart and 523 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 5: lovely people into the bargain. So I was a very, 524 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,479 Speaker 5: very very lucky guy that I got to work with 525 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 5: both of them. 526 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: The impact on organized crime was swift. First and foremost, 527 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: the mob lost its longtime leaders. 528 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 14: I think it's going to take a long time to 529 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 14: replace the kind of the network that these men put together. 530 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 14: I mean, these men had personal relationships and experience going 531 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 14: back over decades, which was a kind of they were 532 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 14: kind of gray eminences of the mob, and they're just 533 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 14: hopefully won't be people like that out on the street 534 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 14: now that can pull this mafia together. 535 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 4: It removed much of the more sophisticated leadership of the 536 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,719 Speaker 4: American mafia, and so then the mantle began to fall 537 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 4: to people who were less sophisticated, less strategy. 538 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: But like with the fall of any empire, defeat can 539 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: breed chaos, and in the aftermath of the Commission case, 540 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: law enforcement nationwide braced itself for the inevitable wave of violence. 541 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: The surviving members of the mafia were about to fight 542 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: for control within the weakened organization. 543 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 13: Law enforcement officials say there is now a power vacuum 544 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 13: at the top of Lacos and Astra, with all of 545 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 13: its old leaders either in jail or engraves. A great 546 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 13: deal of turmoil is expected as other mafia dons struggled 547 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 13: to take control of the mob. 548 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: In other words, the mob was severely wounded, but it 549 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: wasn't yet dead, and it wasn't long before what was 550 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: left of the Five families found its footing once more, 551 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: and a new crop of leaders made their play for 552 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: the top spots. 553 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 11: The mafia is run as if it were a law 554 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 11: large business, which it is. That means new people will 555 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 11: take over the posts vacated by senior members who are they. 556 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 1: The battle for New York Streets was far from over. 557 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 7: Like Rudy said, to kill a snake, you got to 558 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 7: take the head off. That's what basically the commission case did. 559 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 7: But then, of course Gotti filled in for Castellano. 560 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: John Gotti was an ambitious underboss poised to take control 561 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,359 Speaker 1: of the Gambino crime family after the murder of Paul 562 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: Castellano with his designer suits and million watt smile. The 563 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 1: teflon Don was a boss for a new era in 564 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 1: the American mafia, as comfortable on the front pages of 565 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: the newspaper as he was in the back rooms of 566 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: Little Italy. His rival Vincent Gigante, who would take a 567 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: much different approach to being a crime boss than his 568 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 1: high profile competitor. 569 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 4: He was famous for not saying anything orally because he 570 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 4: didn't want to be recorded. You know, he would walk 571 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 4: around pretending to be mentally deranged, would not say anything 572 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 4: in a place where it could be recorded, like in 573 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 4: a building. But there's a view that emerged even after 574 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 4: our trial that he was actually the power in the 575 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 4: General's filming, that Salerno was kind of the front man. 576 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: They called him Vincent the Chin. But despite his eccentric behavior, 577 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 1: there was a growing suspicion that Giganty was actually the 578 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,320 Speaker 1: brains behind the whole operation. 579 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 2: Next time on Law and Order, Criminal justice system. 580 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:46,240 Speaker 5: Who are these guys that fooled the United States government? 581 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 2: The Genevie's family, They were secret of these people would 582 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,280 Speaker 2: tell you if your hair was on fire. 583 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 7: I made recordings where they wouldn't say his name, where 584 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 7: they would refer to chin gigante by just putting their 585 00:35:58,680 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 7: finger to their chin. 586 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 9: The fact that he missed my father should have been 587 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,919 Speaker 9: a dead man, because if someone screws something like that up, 588 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 9: there's no room for them to stay. 589 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 2: Law and Order Criminal Justice System is a production of 590 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 2: Wolf Entertainment and iHeart podcasts. Our host is Anna Sega Nicolazi. 591 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 2: This episode was written by Trevor Young and Anna Sega Nicolazzi. 592 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,800 Speaker 2: Executive produced by Dick Wolf, Elliott Wolf, and Stephen Michael 593 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 2: at Wolf Entertainment on behalf of iHeartRadio. Executive produced by 594 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 2: Alex Williams and Matt Frederick, with supervising producers Trevor Young 595 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 2: and Chandler Mays, and producers Jesse Funk, Nooms Griffin, and 596 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:53,360 Speaker 2: Rima el Kali. This season is executive produced by Anna 597 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:59,760 Speaker 2: Seagan Nicolazzi, Story producer Walker Lamond. Our researchers are Carolyn 598 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 2: Townlage and Lukes. Dance. Editing and sound designed by Jesse Funk. 599 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 2: Original music by John O'Hara, original theme by Mike Post, 600 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 2: Additional music by Steve Moore and additional voice over by 601 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,319 Speaker 2: me Steve Zernklton. Special thanks to Fox five in New 602 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 2: York ABC and CBS for providing archival material for the show. 603 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio and Wolf Entertainment, visit the 604 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:35,359 Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 605 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 2: favorite shows. Thanks for listening.