Speaker 1: Pushkin hay Slight Changers. I can't believe I get to
Speaker 1: say this, but Brenee Brown is launching my new book,
Speaker 1: The Other Side of Change into the World. Join me
Speaker 1: for an exclusive virtual conversation with Brene on the eve
Speaker 1: of my book launch, January twelfth, at eight pm Eastern.
Speaker 1: Brene's work has shaped my understanding of resilience, and I'm
Speaker 1: delighted that she believes in this book as much as
Speaker 1: I do. You can register for the event at the
Speaker 1: link in the show notes or at changewithmaya dot com
Speaker 1: slash launch. The event is open to anyone who has
Speaker 1: pre ordered the book from any retailer in the US.
Speaker 1: Are limited and registration closes on December fourteenth, so sign
Speaker 1: up soon, and if you can't make the event live,
Speaker 1: don't worry, a recording will be sent to everyone who
Speaker 1: signs up. I can't wait to see you there. Okay,
Speaker 1: Now onto Zarna Garg.
Speaker 2: People have always said that I'm funny. That is one
Speaker 2: thing I've had my whole life, and my whole life,
Speaker 2: I was a great. Of all the gifts that I
Speaker 2: could have gotten, I got this funny. What are you doing? Funny? Nothing?
Speaker 1: When Zarna garg was growing up in Mumbai, her ability
Speaker 1: to make people laugh didn't register as a valuable skill,
Speaker 1: but today she is one of the most in demand
Speaker 1: comedians in America. She's open for people like Amy Poehler
Speaker 1: and Tina Fey, and has starred in two solo comedy specials.
Speaker 1: Zarna first step foot on a comedy stage when she
Speaker 1: was forty four years old, and she's quickly become known
Speaker 1: for her irreverence style.
Speaker 2: A little about me. I'm an immigrant. I'm here to
Speaker 2: take your jobs. Wat job, Jerry Seinfeld.
Speaker 1: But she doesn't just take risks on stage. What's defined
Speaker 1: her success in life is a high tolerance for discomfort
Speaker 1: and a steadfast trust in her own instincts.
Speaker 2: Courage is a learned behavior. Nobody gave it to me.
Speaker 2: I have to give it to me. A lot of
Speaker 2: people say I just don't have it in me, as
Speaker 2: if other people just got it and they didn't. It's
Speaker 2: not like that. You can learn courage the way you
Speaker 2: learned to walk.
Speaker 1: On Today's show, why It's never too late to bet
Speaker 1: on yourself. I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies human behavior,
Speaker 1: and this is a slight change of plans a show
Speaker 1: about who we are and who we become in the
Speaker 1: face of a big change. I first encountered Zarna while
Speaker 1: scrolling YouTube one day and instantly found her both relatable
Speaker 1: and hilarious.
Speaker 2: Everywhere you know. My eleven year old son came home
Speaker 2: from school the other day and he goes, mom, my, teth.
Speaker 2: School has asked me to declare my pronouns. What should
Speaker 2: I say? I said, you tell them you are Indian.
Speaker 2: Your pronoun is doctor.
Speaker 1: But I didn't know much about her personal story and
Speaker 1: how exactly she scaled comedy heights until I read her
Speaker 1: best selling memoir, This American Woman. As I would come
Speaker 1: to learn, Zarna's courage to determine her own path was
Speaker 1: a reaction to a life she knew she didn't want.
Speaker 1: Zarna grew up in India in the nineteen eighties in
Speaker 1: a well to do family. Things were comfortable, but she
Speaker 1: always felt that her rebellious, outspoken personality type ran against
Speaker 1: the cultural norms in her family. Things came to a
Speaker 1: head when she was fourteen and her dad told her
Speaker 1: it was time for an arranged marriage.
Speaker 2: I just didn't want it. Look I thought I had
Speaker 2: the choice. I assumed that I'm being asked do I
Speaker 2: want to do it? So that was the first big
Speaker 2: wake up call that no one was asking me. I
Speaker 2: was being told that this is what we're doing, and
Speaker 2: that if I didn't want it, then that means I
Speaker 2: got to figure out my own life somewhere else. My
Speaker 2: dad couldn't understand what my problem was, and in his mind,
Speaker 2: he was asking for a very reasonable thing. He's like,
Speaker 2: you would have gotten married at sixteen seventeen anyway, All
Speaker 2: my siblings were married before they turned twenty, and often
Speaker 2: in the arranged setting. To be very crass about it,
Speaker 2: if you're younger, you get a better deal. In fact,
Speaker 2: many people back then didn't understand what my problem was,
Speaker 2: including women, including a lot of my aunts who were
Speaker 2: arranged themselves. They were like, you know, he's going to
Speaker 2: find a nice guy for you, Like why are you
Speaker 2: fighting this so much?
Speaker 1: If you could articulate exactly what you were rejecting when
Speaker 1: you were rejecting your father's decision to give you an
Speaker 1: arranged marriage, what were you rejecting? What were you resisting?
Speaker 2: What my father was offering me was security, Like we
Speaker 2: will place you in a situation where you will be secure,
Speaker 2: and your baseline will be determined, like the floor is set.
Speaker 2: But what I saw was that along with the floor,
Speaker 2: the ceiling is set, because this family is now going
Speaker 2: to decide what I can and cannot do. And I
Speaker 2: remember thinking, I'm going to bet that I can do
Speaker 2: better than whatever this is, Like, why do I need
Speaker 2: somebody to set the ceiling for me? Why can't I
Speaker 2: determine my own ceiling? I mean, I remember reading about
Speaker 2: women who were lawyers and doctors and things, king like
Speaker 2: why can't I be one of those people. I remember
Speaker 2: reading in a lot of different places that life is
Speaker 2: a gamble. You don't know how it's gonna work. I
Speaker 2: remember thinking to myself that if life is a gamble,
Speaker 2: I will gamble on myself.
Speaker 1: That's so beautifully said. I'm going to better myself, But.
Speaker 2: I had no basis for it. Just so people know,
Speaker 2: had no I had no business believing in myself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that that's a bad.
Speaker 2: As to lead anybody to believe that they should believe
Speaker 2: in me, or me should believe in myself.
Speaker 1: You said that you knew if you rejected your dad's
Speaker 1: I was going to say advice, but it's not advice.
Speaker 1: His proclamation of how things ought to happen, how things
Speaker 1: were going to happen, you would need to find your
Speaker 1: own way in your life. Tell me about what the
Speaker 1: conversation looked like in which you said no, I don't
Speaker 1: want this, and what followed.
Speaker 2: I so clearly remember him saying I am done parenting.
Speaker 2: I am done. So when he said, well, if you
Speaker 2: don't want to do this, you can't live here anymore,
Speaker 2: I think he thought, oh, well, she's going to go
Speaker 2: to a friend's house for one night, and then she's
Speaker 2: going to come back and reality will hit and then
Speaker 2: we'll be back on track for his agenda. I think
Speaker 2: what neither of us expected is how big headed both
Speaker 2: of us were going to be about it. And I
Speaker 2: certainly did not think that he would dig in his
Speaker 2: heels as hard as he did. Like my extremely Western
Speaker 2: oriented influenced mind, I was like, is he crazy? Like
Speaker 2: why is this an issue? I'm just I'm home, I'm
Speaker 2: doing my school work. Like I wasn't, Like even though
Speaker 2: I was a rebellious kid, I wasn't creating problems for anybody. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like people need to know, Like it's not because in America,
Speaker 2: when a teen is rebellious, you're like assuming all these
Speaker 2: like is she getting pregnant? I was reading the newspaper
Speaker 2: exact like to me, it was like he has to
Speaker 2: come around, like this cannot be my only option. But
Speaker 2: it pretty much was in his eyes.
Speaker 1: What was that period like? And how long did it last?
Speaker 1: How did you survive outside of your home?
Speaker 2: You know, when you're a teenager and you have a
Speaker 2: life full of friends, You're like, fine, I'll go stay
Speaker 2: with my friend. We've been trying to do sleepovers for
Speaker 2: the last year. And when I left, I left with
Speaker 2: the mindset that this is gonna blow over and in
Speaker 2: the meantime, I will stay with my friends and figure
Speaker 2: it out. I think reality hit me when after two
Speaker 2: days my best friend's mom said, I think you need
Speaker 2: to go home. And that's when I was like, oh no,
Speaker 2: Like where am I gonna go? Like what home? You know,
Speaker 2: because I when I left, my dad was very clear
Speaker 2: that you're not coming back here unless you're ready to
Speaker 2: fall into line with the plan. And then it became
Speaker 2: a story of like, let me try this friend, and
Speaker 2: let me try this auntie, and who lives nearby and
Speaker 2: who is a commutable distance and how am I going
Speaker 2: to get there? Things that I had never worried about
Speaker 2: until then.
Speaker 1: Yeah, were you ever fearful during this extended period because
Speaker 1: at the time you thought it was a transient state, Right,
Speaker 1: I'm going to be back in a couple of days.
Speaker 1: But as the months and the years passed, what did
Speaker 1: you feel being away from your family?
Speaker 2: I was lonely. I was very consumed by like what
Speaker 2: is happening? Like how did my life go so off
Speaker 2: track in one day? I felt like no one is
Speaker 2: ever going to understand what I want in life, like
Speaker 2: nobody in India certainly. Yeah, I was trying. My sister,
Speaker 2: who lived in Ohio, was trying to get me a visa.
Speaker 2: I was trying to get myself a visa to come
Speaker 2: to the US to study, because if I made it
Speaker 2: to my sister's house, she was willing to take me
Speaker 2: in and I would be safe and secure for a while.
Speaker 2: But coming to America is not so easy as an Indian,
Speaker 2: you know, as an Indian person, especially somebody with no
Speaker 2: parents lobbying for them, no paperwork really, So even though
Speaker 2: I had sent out all kinds of things into the
Speaker 2: universe and my sister was trying, I didn't think it
Speaker 2: was gonna happen. Nothing was materializing. I was so exhausted.
Speaker 2: I feel like there's a part of that exhaustion that
Speaker 2: will never leave my body. At that point, I had
Speaker 2: exhausted every relative, every friend, every human being I knew
Speaker 2: in Mumbai to take me in to host me. You know.
Speaker 2: I was like, there's no endgame, Like he's won. So
Speaker 2: when I went back, I was like, Okay, maybe I
Speaker 2: should channelize my efforts into go with his plan. But
Speaker 2: how to make it the best plan for me?
Speaker 1: Okay, so optimize the suboptimal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, maybe the guy is not as bad as
Speaker 2: my brain is imagining him to. Maybe the circumstances can
Speaker 2: be bettered than what they throw up. And the initial
Speaker 2: negotiation of the arrangement, because there was just nothing left,
Speaker 2: I had given up. I was like, this is it,
Speaker 2: Like I can't fight this anymore.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, at some point you just stopped the resistance because
Speaker 1: it's too tiring.
Speaker 2: You just don't have an end game, Like there was nothing,
Speaker 2: There was no door opening.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Sasarn, I mean your story could have just sort
Speaker 1: of ended there. But you secretly got a visa without
Speaker 1: anyone knowing. You packed a bag, you picked up the visa,
Speaker 1: you got on a plane, you're not staying with your sister.
Speaker 1: And what's so interesting to me is that this counterfactual
Speaker 1: life of which you knew so little. I'm going to
Speaker 1: literally pack my bags move across the world with no
Speaker 1: plan whatsoever, still felt like the better bet than the
Speaker 1: one that your dad had paid for you. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: tell me more about how you thought about that trade
Speaker 1: off and where you found that fearlessness.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm telling you it was not fearlessness, it
Speaker 2: was but desperation. I was surrounded by women who did
Speaker 2: not understand be or my curiosity my whole life. They
Speaker 2: didn't understand why I wanted to read a newspaper every day.
Speaker 2: They didn't understand why I wanted to work, Like, why
Speaker 2: would anybody want to be a lawyer when you can
Speaker 2: be home and running a home. I realized that if
Speaker 2: I get married in that setting, that's who I'm going
Speaker 2: to become, because that's what that system creates. You could
Speaker 2: see it, it could see it in all the women
Speaker 2: around me. They were not unhappy women. Just to be clear,
Speaker 2: they were affluent women. They had all the money in
Speaker 2: the world to shop and eat out and all the
Speaker 2: things that we would consider markers of a good life, right,
Speaker 2: But I was a kid that hated shopping, like I
Speaker 2: don't belong in that world. Even here, I remember always
Speaker 2: being the one thinking, this feels like this whole thing
Speaker 2: is not serving the women. It's serving somebody, It is
Speaker 2: not serving them. Yeah. It was that that feeling of
Speaker 2: keep me away from this that gave me courage to
Speaker 2: pursue that other thing, like whatever that other thing was. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So then over the next three decades, you build this
Speaker 1: really beautiful life in the US. Right, You go to college,
Speaker 1: you marry your now husband, you work as an attorney,
Speaker 1: and you become a stay at home mom to your
Speaker 1: three kids. How in the world, Sarna did stand up comedy,
Speaker 1: of all things, become a realistic career option.
Speaker 2: But it was not. I'm still not sure it is.
Speaker 2: I tried and failed at so many things, like so
Speaker 2: many things, like I was a matchmaker for a minute.
Speaker 2: Was so bad, Oh my god, it was terrible. Matchmaking
Speaker 2: is a whole job of just basically telling women it's
Speaker 2: not too late. That's it. That's the whole job. Ninety
Speaker 2: percent of it is that, I'm telling you, being honest.
Speaker 2: I tried a cooking, a vegan chili business because I'm
Speaker 2: vegetarian and trying to be always. I used to take
Speaker 2: my kids for a lot of the things that I
Speaker 2: was trying. One so they gave me courage, and two
Speaker 2: because I wanted them to learn. I wanted them to
Speaker 2: see that your mom is trying new things and it's okay,
Speaker 2: and she might fail, and that's also okay.
Speaker 1: That's great.
Speaker 2: But my daughter, I think when she was with me
Speaker 2: on many of these trips, started noticing. She's like, Mom,
Speaker 2: you know. I think what turned it for her was
Speaker 2: she saw a guy who bought my chili once because
Speaker 2: we were talking for a long time, and then as
Speaker 2: soon as I turned it around, he threw the chili away.
Speaker 2: And I think it was an aha moment in my
Speaker 2: daughter's mind that, like, he paid all that money because
Speaker 2: he wanted to hear what she was saying. He had
Speaker 2: no interest in the chili. It's her stories that are
Speaker 2: the product. Then she started making notes like all their
Speaker 2: kids have been hanging out at our house for years.
Speaker 2: They're like, all these kids who have broken relationships or
Speaker 2: bad grades or whatever, they love hanging out with my
Speaker 2: mom because she's going to make them laugh about it,
Speaker 2: and she's gonna make them feel better about it. My son,
Speaker 2: who at the time was fourteen or fifteen, said to me, Mom,
Speaker 2: when I tell my friends your stories, they stop dead
Speaker 2: in their tracks. They want to hear more. Now these
Speaker 2: are fifteen year old boys. They don't want to hear
Speaker 2: about anything. Of all the people that you can try
Speaker 2: to get attention from, try to get a fifteen year
Speaker 2: old boy who's although I obsessed with sports, that happening.
Speaker 1: That's the true marker of success. That is the pressure test.
Speaker 2: And then my daughter did this whole birthday gift experiment.
Speaker 2: You know, she reached out to people I've known my
Speaker 2: whole life and said, can you write a line or
Speaker 2: two about my mom? It's for her birthday. I'm making
Speaker 2: a gift. And she stuffed this whole water dispenser that
Speaker 2: I had been wanting for my kitchen, and instead of
Speaker 2: stuffing it with water and lemons and all that, she
Speaker 2: stuffed it with notes from people about what they had
Speaker 2: to say about me. And overwhelmingly the notes were like,
Speaker 2: she's funny, She's hilarious. She made us laugh. That is
Speaker 2: one thing I've had my whole life. People have always
Speaker 2: said that I'm funny, and my whole life I was like, great,
Speaker 2: of all the gifts that I could have gotten, I
Speaker 2: got this funny. What are you doing with funny? Nothing? Useless?
Speaker 1: Do you remember what your first jokes were about?
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. My first joke was about how I
Speaker 2: came to America with nine dollars in my pocket. Ten
Speaker 2: thousand in the bank, but nine in the pocket, because
Speaker 2: there is truth to that. In my life. I came
Speaker 2: to America as a broke teenager, It's true, but my
Speaker 2: sister took me in in a big way and she
Speaker 2: was living a good life. So in some way, I
Speaker 2: relate to both sides of being an immigrant. I relate
Speaker 2: to being that broke person who has nothing, but I've
Speaker 2: also intimately seen the life where you come in and
Speaker 2: work and get that American dream very quickly. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: my life experience is actually the range.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: In New York, you know, we all go to charitable
Speaker 2: events and people talk about where they give money and
Speaker 2: the effects of that charity. Often in those rooms, I'm
Speaker 2: the only one who received charity for many, many years
Speaker 2: and then found a seat on the table. So when
Speaker 2: I wrote that joke, I actually meant both sides of it,
Speaker 2: And then I wrote a lot of jokes of my
Speaker 2: mother in law. Oh my god, I remember. One of
Speaker 2: the earliest jokes I remember was like, my mother in
Speaker 2: law asked my husband because he brought me to meet her,
Speaker 2: right we were not arranged. She was like, I got
Speaker 2: you a jacket at Brooks Brothers for her. And it
Speaker 2: feels so rude and grasp but it's like and then
Speaker 2: I built it into how crazy she is, but we
Speaker 2: all are. I probably will be about my son.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm not in denial about that. I want
Speaker 1: to know. Did you feel at all constrained by having
Speaker 1: an Indian heritage and being concerned about offending people, feeling
Speaker 1: like certain categories were off limits.
Speaker 2: No? And I tell you why, because I have thought
Speaker 2: about it. I've been penalized for being brutally honest my
Speaker 2: whole life. In some way, I just don't know how
Speaker 2: else to be like I don't the only other setting
Speaker 2: is off Like me, I don't say anything. I just
Speaker 2: don't have it in me to not observe what my
Speaker 2: eyes are seeing and then talk about it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love that part of you, and I so resonate
Speaker 1: with it. My Mom's always like, you know, there's things
Speaker 1: you can choose not to share right, man to share? Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: But I'm like, say it, but my factory settings are
Speaker 1: to fully disclose every little thought I'm thinking all the time.
Speaker 1: It dries my mom crazy because she's much more of
Speaker 1: that discretion and privacy, and I've never known that setting.
Speaker 1: In any case.
Speaker 2: The idea that this is our culture is entirely a
Speaker 2: male construct, like men that I now have a thing
Speaker 2: in my head, and I've taught my kids to do this.
Speaker 2: If somebody says this is our culture, replace the word culture,
Speaker 2: but this is how our men like it, because culture
Speaker 2: was created by the men. The women didn't have any
Speaker 2: say anyway. And then once you replace the words with
Speaker 2: how men like it, it starts to look absurd, like
Speaker 2: why do I care how they like it?
Speaker 1: One hundred percent? So your first experience with stand up
Speaker 1: was an open mic night at a Mexican restaurant called
Speaker 1: Plia Dettes. Okay, if you can travel back to the
Speaker 1: moment when you are prepping for this set and you're
Speaker 1: about to come out backstage, what was that experience?
Speaker 2: Like? It was great. I no one expected it to
Speaker 2: be anything.
Speaker 1: Well expectations that's great, Yes, my kids.
Speaker 2: I was so irritated that my kids were making me
Speaker 2: do this, So I was like, all right, fine, my
Speaker 2: five friends will come and will whatever clap about the
Speaker 2: mother in law being blah blah and whatever. Like. There
Speaker 2: was no there was no anxiety because there was nothing
Speaker 2: to lose.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you weren't worried that your jokes would fall
Speaker 1: flat or that you know, you wouldn't get people to laugh.
Speaker 1: That just wasn't a concern.
Speaker 2: I've never heard it about that. Okay, I have a
Speaker 2: reputation in the business. Some of the toughest jobs come
Speaker 2: to me and I take them. My shows are filled
Speaker 2: with kids who don't drink. Kids are very tough, but
Speaker 2: I take them all in. I can handle it. I've
Speaker 2: made kids laugh for twenty years as a mom. I
Speaker 2: can do this. Yeah. I never like, I know what
Speaker 2: it takes. I know, I just I've never questioned it.
Speaker 2: I don't question it now.
Speaker 1: To your point, like the version of comedy you want
Speaker 1: to do is actually the version that everybody loves, and
Speaker 1: there is nothing more satisfying in the world than when
Speaker 1: the authentic version is the thing that resonates most of people.
Speaker 2: I think that what you're saying is so true and
Speaker 2: people need to hear it because we spend so much
Speaker 2: time becoming something that we think we need to be
Speaker 2: that we don't spend enough time just acknowledging who we are.
Speaker 2: And maybe there's a big space for that.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
Speaker 1: of plans. I want to know what you feel. Comedy
Speaker 1: offered you as a person that other things didn't.
Speaker 2: Comedy saved me without a question. Comedy put food on
Speaker 2: my table thirty years ago, when I didn't even know
Speaker 2: it was a business.
Speaker 1: When you're trying to catch surf, you're saying, like to
Speaker 1: invite yourself to these friends homes and stay other catches.
Speaker 2: People invited me in because they knew I will make
Speaker 2: the dinner table fun. Who do we want? When you
Speaker 2: plan a party? Who do you want? You want somebody
Speaker 2: who's going to make the room light, make the room fun.
Speaker 2: Who's gonna who's gonna make your other guests feel welcome?
Speaker 2: Who's gonna make you feel relaxed. Comedy is a weapon.
Speaker 2: It's an art, it's a it's a therapy, it's a medicine,
Speaker 2: it's everything. Comedy gave me things before I even knew
Speaker 2: it was giving it to me. Honestly, these are all
Speaker 2: things I've realized upon reflection. I had no awareness of
Speaker 2: it even five years ago, that that's what my life was.
Speaker 2: A lot of comics say to me, They're like, where
Speaker 2: did you come from? It's like you fell out of
Speaker 2: the sky six years ago, And I'm like, I, it's true.
Speaker 2: I stepped foot on a comedy stage six years ago.
Speaker 2: Since then, I have two specials out into the world
Speaker 2: on major streaming platforms. I have a book, I have
Speaker 2: a how is this happening so fast? It's happening so
Speaker 2: fast because I've had comedy in me my whole life. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we just didn't do it on a stage.
Speaker 1: Comedy was a way of life, and I've used it.
Speaker 2: Like when I write, I write more material than any comic.
Speaker 2: I know why, because it comes so naturally to me.
Speaker 2: I can no CrowdWork for an hour and a half,
Speaker 2: not a single written joke, and no problem.
Speaker 1: It's I love that you say that, because I really
Speaker 1: resonate in my own space. People say, oh, cognitive science
Speaker 1: has fueled your love of humans. I say, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I am a cognitive scientist because I've been inherently fascinated
Speaker 1: by other people's minds from the time I was a
Speaker 1: little kid trying to crack open the nut, trying to
Speaker 1: understand what lights people up, what gets them to feel fearful.
Speaker 1: You know, I've been asking these questions since I was little.
Speaker 1: That is what has led me to be a cognitive
Speaker 1: scientist formally. But little Maya was a budding cognitive scientist
Speaker 1: and the time she was so.
Speaker 2: Taking it in and analyzing it your whole life. You know.
Speaker 2: In Hindi, there's a very popular Hindi movie Silsilla. It
Speaker 2: was a very popular and controversial love triangle back in
Speaker 2: the day. In that movie, the wife asks the husband,
Speaker 2: who has now discovered that the woman is in love
Speaker 2: with another man. She asks him, how did you know?
Speaker 2: And he he says in Hindi kayama kinzer, which means
Speaker 2: the person who loves something, they look from a different
Speaker 2: They look with an intensity that you cannot match when
Speaker 2: there's no love there. Yeah, that's what you're describing. You're
Speaker 2: trying to decode this from such a raw cerebral space
Speaker 2: since your childhood that it's not it's not explainable to
Speaker 2: normal people. It's not explainable in a way that academics
Speaker 2: would be like oh you got an A plus in
Speaker 2: this class. It's not about all those things. And I'm
Speaker 2: like that in comedy we are definitely kindred spirits because
Speaker 2: I didn't even know what a joke was when I
Speaker 2: started writing like ten jokes a day.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I heard that you or maybe read you literally
Speaker 1: googled what is a joke? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I didn't know what a cognitive scientist was when
Speaker 1: I was growing up. I was like, what is this.
Speaker 1: I don't know what this is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you just did it. There wasn't design. I mean
Speaker 2: I certainly not in my case. I mean I fell
Speaker 2: into it. I resisted it for the longest time.
Speaker 1: Is there a moment that you can remember in the
Speaker 1: last several years where you really felt vulnerable or there
Speaker 1: was some pain associated with this whole trajectory.
Speaker 2: Every day? Look, I today, I am the breadwinner in
Speaker 2: my family. My husband lost his job during COVID, and
Speaker 2: we live a very big life. We have three kids.
Speaker 2: One just finished college, one is in college, and one
Speaker 2: is going to high school. When the college tuition is due,
Speaker 2: I have a panic attack that I'm going to pay
Speaker 2: this by selling short tickets. Like what you know, it's
Speaker 2: a tremendous responsibility to take, and aside from the financial responsible,
Speaker 2: it's emotional responsibility because my husband is looking to me
Speaker 2: for courage. We're both immigrants, we don't have anybody here
Speaker 2: when he feels down and out, it's my trajectory is
Speaker 2: giving him hope that he's going to find his way back.
Speaker 2: My daughter now works with me, so I can't I
Speaker 2: can't lose my cool around her because I need to
Speaker 2: be strong for her. But privately, do I get anxiety
Speaker 2: attacks all the time. One thing that I've done is
Speaker 2: I've started scheduling my panic attacks, Like I'm so busy
Speaker 2: that I've now said, okay, January second and lunchtime, I'm
Speaker 2: going to panic about this thing because until then I
Speaker 2: just need to get through this holiday slate of shows.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I cannot afford just today's interview fall
Speaker 1: on a skettle panic attack day? Are we good?
Speaker 2: Today? We're on a really good day because I'm.
Speaker 1: Not wonderful, wonderful, like do you know.
Speaker 2: What I mean? Like? Of course, I at that dark
Speaker 2: places every day every day. I'm fifty years old. I
Speaker 2: didn't know that I started comedy later in life until
Speaker 2: I was on a news segment and somebody looked at
Speaker 2: me and said, you started comedy late at life, and
Speaker 2: I was like, I did, Like it didn't occur to
Speaker 2: me until that point because I was so busy just going.
Speaker 2: But I'm very laser focused in that way. When I
Speaker 2: have a goal, that's all I'm chasing, Like I'm not
Speaker 2: thinking about the noise around it. Single minded fact that
Speaker 2: I remember coming home and thinking, Wow, I did start late,
Speaker 2: and now what if I never make it? And what if?
Speaker 2: You know, I'm in the entertainment business as a fifty
Speaker 2: year old woman trying to sell a TV show and
Speaker 2: a movie, and every day I get reminded that this
Speaker 2: is it's gonna be a fight, all right.
Speaker 1: I want more of these Zarna anti tips. Other than
Speaker 1: scheduling your panic attacks, what else do you do to
Speaker 1: manage that kind of existential worry.
Speaker 2: One is I learned to take a break and not quit.
Speaker 2: You there will be a time where you're like, I
Speaker 2: just cannot do this today, and everybody is gonna have
Speaker 2: to understand whatever that this is. Yeah, because you're gonna
Speaker 2: have an endless slate of there's always an episode to record,
Speaker 2: there's always a person to meet. At some point, you're
Speaker 2: gonna say to yourself today it is I'm just gonna
Speaker 2: take a break and shut out the noise. And two,
Speaker 2: I have really learned to find the joy in the
Speaker 2: things that give me happiness. I used to think this
Speaker 2: was like all white lady mumbo jumbo. Honestly right like
Speaker 2: it feels a white lady mumbo jumbo. But I will
Speaker 2: take my makeup off, I will go get my nails done.
Speaker 2: I will pay for somebody to massage my back while
Speaker 2: I'm getting my nails done. I will do whatever I
Speaker 2: need to do with no I mean, and I know
Speaker 2: they all look at me. I know they're judging me.
Speaker 2: Especially our women judge each other the most.
Speaker 1: Look. My family is tumble. There's no phrase in tumble
Speaker 1: for self care. They eradicated that phrase from the dictionary.
Speaker 2: Exactly. I have the same thing like, can I not
Speaker 2: have my time now without apologizing to anybody? Yeah?
Speaker 1: What has surprised you about the person that you've become
Speaker 1: after being a professional comedian for all these years? Are
Speaker 1: there new parts of your personality that have surfaced that
Speaker 1: you weren't aware were there? Or new insecurities, vulnerabilities, really anything.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you, and it's gonna sound very arrogant, but
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say it's okay. Be honest. I'm a pretty
Speaker 2: freaking phenomenal business woman, and I can see that coming.
Speaker 2: I've been obsessed with entrepreneurship my whole life. I've been
Speaker 2: reading entrepreneurship books. My whole childhood was Fortune magazine, Forbes magazine.
Speaker 2: What color is your parachute? You name it. I've done
Speaker 2: the self help, the business this, how he started this company,
Speaker 2: how that company went bankrupt. I've read it all. Yeah,
Speaker 2: But until I became my own entrepreneurial owner, I didn't
Speaker 2: realize how good I would be at it. My instincts
Speaker 2: are so good. I can tell you, like with one
Speaker 2: eye close, which decision makes sense and which will not
Speaker 2: lead to money.
Speaker 1: I love that you share that reflection, because the whole
Speaker 1: thesis of my book, The Other Side of Change, is
Speaker 1: that going through the change process is involves some element
Speaker 1: of revelation about these hidden superpowers that were just not
Speaker 1: on display before that we didn't know we have. And
Speaker 1: you just perfectly articulated that you discovered a new superpower
Speaker 1: in yourself as a result of going through this change.
Speaker 2: I mean, I am very surprised, but I'll be honest
Speaker 2: with you, because I'm when the words sometimes in business
Speaker 2: meetings come out of my mouth, I'm surprised I'm saying
Speaker 2: these things. There are times when somebody will make a
Speaker 2: crazy ask and I'll be like, look, I would do it,
Speaker 2: but it's not right for my business, and I'm shocked,
Speaker 2: like I'm an auntie. How did I undo forty years
Speaker 2: of saying yes to everything? But I did for my business,
Speaker 2: which is now my new baby. Yep, yep.
Speaker 1: So you've established over the course of your life that
Speaker 1: you are a risk taker, right. You defied your domineering father,
Speaker 1: you disrupted an arranged marriage, you fled your home country.
Speaker 1: You literally became a stand up comedian during a pandemic,
Speaker 1: which is most people's biggest fear. I think what I'm
Speaker 1: hearing from you is that you have a high tolerance
Speaker 1: for failure. You're comfortable with discomfort on a daily basis.
Speaker 1: Just hearing you talk about the daily anxieties that you
Speaker 1: go through. What advice would you have for people who
Speaker 1: want to start some new enterprise of some kind. They're
Speaker 1: not going to become Zarna, fine, but maybe they.
Speaker 2: Want to take up something better than Sara. Why maybe better?
Speaker 1: Fine? The star your What advice would you have for
Speaker 1: people who might not have the genetic gift of fearlessness
Speaker 1: that you have, who want to take that leap.
Speaker 2: Okay, do not lean on your genetics because they have
Speaker 2: not served many of us well, like all our medical
Speaker 2: doctors will tell you these South Asian genetics especially, Yeah, exactly, Yeah,
Speaker 2: So forget the genetics. I will give you the framework.
Speaker 2: I will give you a statistical reason why you should
Speaker 2: take chances and not worry about failure. The more chances
Speaker 2: you take, the more you increase your surface area and
Speaker 2: probability of succeeding. The failures will not matter in the end. Yeah,
Speaker 2: in the end, all the failures are like the tasting
Speaker 2: spoons of life. You know, when you're making a soup,
Speaker 2: you taste it twenty times.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you just have to.
Speaker 2: Get it perfect by the end, and it will happen
Speaker 2: if you keep tasting enough, if you stand there with diligence,
Speaker 2: and if you focus on what you're doing and don't
Speaker 2: worry so much. Seek comfort in knowing that people are
Speaker 2: so self obsessed today that nobody has time to judge
Speaker 2: you and me. There was a time when what will
Speaker 2: your aunt say and what will your Today, everybody is
Speaker 2: obsessed with their own lives absolutely, which is liberating for
Speaker 2: those of us who want to take chances. I opened
Speaker 2: and closed fifteen businesses. None of my friends even realized.
Speaker 2: They were like, oh, you also tried this, and I
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, it didn't really work out, And that
Speaker 2: was the extent of the conversation. And anybody who doesn't
Speaker 2: understand your journey doesn't belong in your life anyway. You
Speaker 2: don't owe an explanation to people who only want to
Speaker 2: see you succeed. If they're not comfortable with comforting you
Speaker 2: when you're failing, they're not comfortable with watching you fail.
Speaker 2: They need to be out of your life anyway.
Speaker 1: You talked about betting on yourself, So for all of
Speaker 1: those who are listening, what advice do you have for
Speaker 1: people who are maybe lacking the courage or confidence to
Speaker 1: take that bet because there's so much unknown and so
Speaker 1: much uncertainty on the other side, and they crave control,
Speaker 1: they crave the security of the known path.
Speaker 2: Right. I get that, And as a parent and a
Speaker 2: spouse and with a lot of household responsibility, I for
Speaker 2: one hundred percent get it. But I would say to
Speaker 2: them that courage is a learned behavior. A lot of
Speaker 2: people say I just don't have it in me, as
Speaker 2: if other people just got it and they didn't. It's
Speaker 2: not like that. You can learn courage the way you
Speaker 2: learned to walk. Like baby steps will get you somewhere.
Speaker 2: It may not take you all the way. It may
Speaker 2: take you beyond where you want to go. But stop
Speaker 2: saying to yourself I'm too scared. Stop the negative self
Speaker 2: talk and reframe it and be like, what is the smallest,
Speaker 2: lightest lift I can make in the direction that I
Speaker 2: want to go? I tell my friends this all the time.
Speaker 2: What is the lightest lift you can imagine that that
Speaker 2: gets you half a foot into that direction? And let's
Speaker 2: start with that one day at a time. I say
Speaker 2: to myself every day when I wake up, nothing and
Speaker 2: nobody will stop me. It's how I give myself courage.
Speaker 2: Nobody gave it to me. I have to give it
Speaker 2: to me. But because say it to myself enough, I
Speaker 2: start believing it by the end of the day. So
Speaker 2: my advice to everybody is to stop thinking do I
Speaker 2: have it? Do I not have it? We all have it?
Speaker 2: Are you going to tap into it? Is the question?
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much? For listening. I love sharing our
Speaker 1: incredible Slight Change guests with you. This year, we're taking
Speaker 1: a break for the holidays, but we'll be back in
Speaker 1: the new year with a whole slate of new episodes
Speaker 1: for you as olays. We'll have stories of personal transformation
Speaker 1: and experts with insights to help us through the biggest
Speaker 1: changes life throws our way. The best thing you can
Speaker 1: do to support us in the meantime is to follow
Speaker 1: the show wherever you listen to podcasts. If you've already
Speaker 1: done that, try to leave a review, share an episode
Speaker 1: with a friend, or, better yet, make a playlist of
Speaker 1: your favorite Slight Change episodes as a gift for your
Speaker 1: friends during their upcoming holiday travel. It'll help more people
Speaker 1: find the show. For more from me, you can follow
Speaker 1: me on Instagram at doctor Mayah Shunker. I'll be sharing
Speaker 1: lots of updates about my new book, The Other Side
Speaker 1: of Change, where I profile people you've never heard from
Speaker 1: on the show and share new scientific insights for navigating change.
Speaker 1: Thank you for all of your support and all of
Speaker 1: the incredible messages you've shared with me and the team
Speaker 1: this year. I'll see you in twenty twenty six. A
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced
Speaker 1: by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes our
Speaker 1: showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our
Speaker 1: producers Brittany Cronin and Megan Luvin, and our sound engine
Speaker 1: near Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song,
Speaker 1: and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change
Speaker 1: of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big
Speaker 1: thanks to everyone there, and of course a very special
Speaker 1: thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a Slight Change
Speaker 1: of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker.