WEBVTT - Content or Commercial: Inside Content Studios 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.760 I'm off my game today. No, you're not. People are 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:05.600 going to have to start making better content. I think 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:07.200 we're gonna be talking about this for a long time. 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:10.200 When you program for everyone, you program for no one. 0:00:10.200 --> 0:00:12.280 I think it's a word purpose driven platform. Like we're 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:15.640 trying to get to substance? How was that? Are you 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:19.200 happy with that? This is marketing therapy right now? And 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:23.760 it really is? What's up? I'm Laura Coarnti and I'm 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:26.760 Alexa Christen. Welcome back to Atlantia. We are in March, 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:30.080 or in March. It's March madness. March is coming in 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:34.919 like a lion, so march. On to the topic of 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:38.400 this episode, the content studio. The content studio. So we 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:42.280 have Auto Bell, who's the chief creative officer of Courageous, 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:45.720 a Turner Media content studio, and they've been around for 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:47.800 a couple of years and kind of burning things up. 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:50.519 So in the spirit of it being our first creative 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:53.360 lead episode, we are going to make this a podcast 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:59.080 short and welcome Auto Bell to the show. Welcome to 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:01.880 the show. Auto, Hello, Otto and you ladies. Nice to 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:04.200 see you both. Yes, thank you are so happy you're here. 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:06.440 We are very happy you're here, So I haven't seen 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:09.800 you since we were both at Ogilvie. You were leading 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:13.600 Ogilvy Entertainment. So tell us now you're at Creatius. What 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:21.840 was the path from agency into media company? UM? I 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:26.680 arrived at CNN because I had UM just like sounds 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:28.000 like you just went to the doors and you're like, 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:32.440 I'm it wasn't it was? It was. It was a fun, 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:34.560 fun origin. So I don't know if you know this one, Laura, 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:39.120 but it's um. We haven't talked about it. So I 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:47.319 got really friendly with um cat's head of sales at CNN, Kakugach, 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:50.040 that's right, and we became good friends over the years. 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:54.240 Because I was at Ogilvy, we were carving out all 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:58.080 of these interesting deals with like BBC World News and 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:02.880 CNBC in Times Now of India, all of these these 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:10.560 sort of multi platform TV lead deals for content, and 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:14.960 I was always trying to work with CNN with my 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:16.799 then boss Dog Scott. We were trying to we was 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:19.600 trying to get something away at CNN, but they were 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:22.560 so strict about their church and state they just wouldn't 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:27.040 do anything exotic in terms of hybrid deals or anything 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:31.440 like that. So it could but then a couple of 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:34.919 years later, UM cat gave me cool and she said, oh, 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:36.680 I want you to come in and let's chat about 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:40.320 a marketing job. And she introduced me to some of 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:42.720 her colleagues, McAll and we got to talking and it 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:47.520 became clear pretty quickly that they needed helping in brand 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:51.120 with branded content. And by that time Jeff Zuccerd arrived 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:54.840 and and he had really um he'd become a lot 0:02:54.919 --> 0:03:00.520 more thoughtful about about the network, about adding entertainment properties 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:03.320 to the network. That kind of broadened the definition of journalism, 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:07.240 you know, stuff like Bourdaine and Lisa Laying and w 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:10.600 Kamal Bell and so the company was ready to do 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:14.360 to do more and to um but in but obviously 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:16.560 in a very careful way. So we struck on the 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:19.400 idea of setting up a brand of content studio. How 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.160 many years ago was that two and a half two 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:24.360 and a half years ago, So right in the prime 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:29.440 of everybody started Russia, there was like t brand existed. Yeah, yeah, 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:32.120 there was one or two. Um but that's the thing. 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:33.799 I mean, you swing a cat now on this town, 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:36.960 you're gonna hit somebody who's opening a content studio right Well, 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:40.480 about that, let's go right there. Well, they're everywhere. I mean, 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:44.000 we very when we set up Courageous Um we named 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:47.360 after Ted Turners, America's cup winning yacht actually, but it 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:50.440 also speaks to the mindset um that we want our 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:52.120 clients to be in, right, We want them to be 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:56.160 brave and bold and and and and open minded and 0:03:56.200 --> 0:04:00.680 generally courageous. But the but yeah, with everybody opening a 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:04.240 brand studio, I mean, the trick is you've got to 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:07.200 really look very carefully at what sits behind that. It's 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:11.680 very easy to hang a shingle. But to my experience, 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:14.760 I mean, you guys probably know no better, but everything 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:16.640 that I see that seems to be a lot of 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:21.680 hollow studios out there. So a lot of um account 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:24.480 handlers or folks who will kind of take your order 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.240 and then they'll turn around and they'll produce something. Yeah, 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:31.880 and they'll hire a bunch of freelancers to actually execute 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:36.520 the work. Or it's maybe a rebadged marketing department right 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:39.839 going by another name in a cool new corner of 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:43.440 the office. We we built this, We built Courageous from 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:45.279 the ground up. We took a very different and that 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:47.000 was part of the part of the deal. When I 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:49.440 joined is that we're going to need to do things 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:51.520 a certain way. Had a lot of a lot of 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:54.760 scars and a lot of lessons from from Ogilvie and 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:58.839 wanted to build something quite, quite deliberate and quite self sufficient. 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:02.520 So we set out and we we we hired a 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:04.400 full time team. I think we're up to about thirty 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:08.240 five full time staff. Now. UM, well, everybody makes and 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:11.240 does so with it is a lot when you consider 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:14.719 that everybody is either a cinematographer or a craft editor, 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:18.280 or a filmmaker director, or a graphic designer or a 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:20.880 web developer. You don't have account people running around. No, 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:24.600 that's handled by other parts of business UM, which is great. 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:28.159 So we just focus on actually making the stuff. What 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:32.560 differentiates Courageous from everything else that that is in the market. 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.320 What sort of the elevator pitch um when you walk 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:39.240 in and are going up against UM bids for commercial 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:44.159 spots to full live production, uh, cinematography, What does that 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:47.320 look like UM to you? Because there are skills I 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:50.760 think that you have within the walls of Courageous UM 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:56.039 that many folks don't. Yeah, thank you. I mean in 0:05:56.160 --> 0:06:00.800 terms of differentiation, it is it's self sufficiency with that ability, 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:04.160 I mean we're doing things that at one five the 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:07.560 cost of a of a creative agency or a glossy 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:11.280 production company because we've taken the two biggest costs out 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:15.520 of production. So we don't have day rates for freelancers 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:18.240 and we don't when we own our own gears, So 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:25.320 that is one big differentiator. But then we're also pretty particular. 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.640 Snobby is another word about the folks who we've brought 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:33.320 on board, because in a world where everybody wants good, 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:37.599 fast and affordable, the good part, the quality part can 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:42.799 often suffer. And deliberately tried to hire the same caliber 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:46.479 of people that you'd find kicking around and see an 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:50.320 n newsroom. We have them courageous working in the dedicated 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:52.760 way for brands. So I'm talking about Emmy and Morrow 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:56.640 winning filmmakers. Um. I mean, we've only been going just 0:06:56.720 --> 0:07:00.200 over a couple of years and I would hasten say 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:03.680 we're probably the most awarded brand studio of in America 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:06.960 this year already, you know, everything from the can lines 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:11.120 to to Digit Day naming as the best publisher for video. 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:15.760 So we are We're very focused on the people that 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:18.600 we bring in to make sure that they can um 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:21.560 deliver at at a at a high quality, you know, 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:25.320 the kind of commercial production standards which brands expect. You know, 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:28.120 just because they're moving, they're moving maybe from an AD 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:30.720 from an agency of record model to an AD more 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:34.559 project by project basis, they're not given up that that 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:40.040 polish that they have spent years and billions of dollars honing, 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:43.680 you know, like they still very they still care a 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:46.960 great deal about that. So you know, we're very conscious 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:48.600 of that, and I try to make sure that the 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:53.040 work is um certainly looks looks good enough. But then 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:57.160 also the big the big difference, and we can talk 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:00.520 more about agency versus publisher, but we're going to go there. 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.720 But I mean that that idea of having a value exchange. Now, 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:08.320 now there's so you ask, you know, making commercials and 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:11.720 that sort of stuff. Our commercial will be a secondary 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:14.480 output of what it is that we do. You know, 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:17.760 I'm not really in the business of making thirty second 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:20.760 spots of trying to replace a traditional creative agency. You 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:23.000 even want to make them do CNN or just sorry, 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:25.080 just Turner want you to do it? Well, No, I 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:27.360 mean what we're seeing is a lot of clients asking 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:30.640 for it. You know, they'll startup. Yeah, they'll they'll well, 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.679 what what happens is we'll start off making something too three, 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:37.719 maybe an event something like that. They'll see it online 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:39.880 or they'll see it on TV. You know. We have 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:43.960 these pod takeovers where were Native plus, where we just 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:47.200 run a piece of content instead upon a bunch of thirties. 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:49.920 They'll see it, they like it, and then they'll want 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:52.640 to graduate it to a full campaign. So they want 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:55.840 to take it off of our network and play it everywhere, 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:57.560 you know, on the side of a building in Austin, 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:02.040 or in cinemas or around the Super Bowl. I mean, 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:04.680 these are all real examples. That's a good question. Is 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:07.200 you said campaign, but then you were talking about a 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:09.360 specific execution. I mean, are you seeing the work that 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:12.880 you're doing informing larger kind of campaign or campaign strategy. 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:16.160 I'm seeing them being picked up and used as a campaign. Okay, 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:21.240 what's the best brief you've gotten? Um? The one that 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:29.000 can change, you know, the one where I can do 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:33.600 what I want? Can you still pay me? I got 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:38.080 far better people than than I'll give you an example, um, 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:45.800 video game company Square Nicks. They they do Hitman and 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:49.199 Lara Croft and stuff. They have another franchise, d s 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:52.679 x UM. It's set like fifteen years in the future 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:56.720 and mankind is divided between people who have changed their 0:09:56.760 --> 0:09:59.600 bodies with technology and people who haven't. It's like this 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.800 war going on sounds like my kind of game. It's 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:08.240 mine kind of divided day sex mine kind of. So 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:10.080 they came to us and they're looking to go beyond 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:15.080 average gamers. Um. The initial brief that came in was 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.600 for like some homepage takeovers the day the game released, 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:22.080 Like why you know why because people don't even think 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:24.840 about media, right, so how can they go on brief 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:26.840 you on something that they came and they said, we 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:32.480 want some because impact. Well, yeah, I mean company who's 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:37.640 creating cinematic content that people interact with. What was it 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:43.480 good about the brief was they listened. So they started 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:46.560 to look at the brief and because they're journalists, they 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:49.319 can't help themselves. These are a lot of my my filmmakers. 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:52.000 They these are the people on your journalism. Yeah, and 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:57.080 they start looking they're like whatever, They start scratching away 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:00.680 at it and they're like, well, you realize that this 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:02.800 isn't science fiction. Like a lot of what your game 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:06.160 deals with that's actually happening now, and they found, you know, 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:10.079 the first cyber hate crime in France like six months earlier, 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:12.439 and and then the and then what they pointed out 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:14.199 though in the case that we made back to the 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:17.280 client is yet there is no bill on the floor 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:20.760 of Congress. There's no one body who's thinking about this 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.280 subject matter. This is all you know. The science is 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:28.000 galloping ahead, but nobody's nobody's tackling it in a thoughtful way. 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:30.560 So what we ended up doing was we ended up 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:35.400 having the first UM summit on human augmentation, like the 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:39.000 first conference for cyborgs in the history of the world. 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:45.360 So we'll be back after this quick break. So we're 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:48.480 back in the studio with maybe first creative on the show, 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:51.440 officially our first creative on the show, Atto Bell, chief 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:55.360 creative officer of Courageous. Can you explain to our listeners 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:59.360 how do you push back or redirect the conversation. So 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:01.680 you said you came to the table with insights, you 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:06.120 were looking at weight, deeper contacts, differ context. What what 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:08.200 it was that process like for your team to sort 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:10.760 of pivot the client to get to from hoping to 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:16.360 take over to a cyborg conference. If you didn't even blink, 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:21.320 it's um. It's the first word. Well, there's a couple 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:25.960 of things. There's UM, a lot of communication and then yeah, 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:28.400 backing it up with insights and research. You're not going 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:32.360 to get past go without a counter argument, you know, 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:37.760 a big media insight backed up with statistics, UM and 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:41.400 some kind of concrete research. Before you go on any 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:46.280 kind of flight of fancy or creative meandering there there 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:49.719 has to be the counterpoint, like we heard you on this, 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:54.120 but did you know that x um so they wanted 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:57.440 to go beyond a hardcore gaming office audience and we 0:12:57.480 --> 0:12:59.280 did that. You know, it's it's public knowledge. We we 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.920 boost the sales by on Amazon during the during the campaign, 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:07.400 like we have real results on how we affected the numbers. 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:10.280 You've got to have the client who's open to it. 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.600 I mean the amount of time that we'll spend and 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:14.959 we've worked together, you know, the amount of time will 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:18.520 spend talking about things in pre production. It saves you 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:22.480 so much time later write. One of my pet pees 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:27.200 with publishers is like trust us. You know, hey, we've 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:35.920 got this from here on out time. What I haven't 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:38.720 done right is dumped something on your desk after two 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:42.320 months of radio silence and said like, hey, review this 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:45.360 rough cut, and it's a million miles away from anybody 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:47.000 who works with Alex, and I know that we don't 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:50.360 live in silence. So um, it's interesting. Alex and I 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:52.480 go back and forth a lot. And you were getting 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:55.400 to this earlier on the conversation around talent and the 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:58.640 types of backgrounds or skill sets that you're pulling from. 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:01.840 What you were just described riving would be research and 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:05.959 strategy in a way in which you're pulling from different departments. 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:08.280 I know that you have Launchpad, for example, which is 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:12.200 a tremendous social insights tool that your team uses to 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.640 field editorial. Can you talk about some of the inputs 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:17.840 and what the skill sets look like in this sort 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:21.560 of modern version of content creation. Well, in my case 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:26.320 where I've sort of netted out is it's weighted in 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:31.040 favor of folks with editorial backgrounds, with a healthy mix 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:35.880 of advertising professionals, and then just the dash a data 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:38.320 science that would be that that would be the recipe 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:44.160 that I'm cooking with. So those editorial guys, Um, those 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:46.800 people are worth their weight in gold. It's a hell 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:49.560 of a lot easier to teach marketing to a journalist 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:52.080 than it is to teach a marketer how to be 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:56.160 a journalist, like their instincts to kind of source report, 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.200 to get on the phone and track down a right 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:05.440 story and not stop until they've got to an under 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:10.880 explored angle or an interesting narrative hook like that. That tenacity, 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:15.000 it has been a revelation for me coming from advertising. Um. 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:17.800 On top of that, UM, it is good to have. 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:21.520 I don't think you talked about that enough, by the way, Yeah, 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.200 I think that when you kind of go into these meetings. 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:27.080 You know, for anybody who has a studio, everybody talks 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:29.120 about we have the pipes, we have the scale, we're 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:32.720 built into X, Y and Z network. But actually coming 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:36.040 at it, that's a point of differentiation in comparison to 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:38.920 a creative agency. Right, you're selling this is a commercial 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:41.760 but this is a commercial company you've got And and 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:43.880 to that point though, that's one of the promises that 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:47.400 I make to the journalists who do come over and 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:51.040 and work with me and concentrate on brands, is you know, 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:54.000 you give me a few years of your time and 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:59.320 I will in turn make you kind of fluent, commercially 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:02.120 fluent right, like tell you how to market and how 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.360 to market yourself, and which in today's business isn't essential, 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:07.520 it's absolutely crucial. I mean, if you've got a passion 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:11.720 project you want to extract money from somebody in order 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:15.200 to realize you'll create a vision, chances are you're gonna 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:18.320 have to walk into a room and present and and 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:20.840 know how to lay out an argument and and explain 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:24.280 to a financier or somebody who's commissioning a project, why, 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:26.440 why you deserve it. I always thought it was fascinating 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:29.960 that j school and business school were separate tracks. Yeah, 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:31.600 because at the end of the day, there's really a 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:33.960 need for at least the business school angle to live 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:38.600 within journalism. It was interesting in yeah, the Oscars this weekend, 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:42.400 you know, Francis McDorman is saying, finance our films. Yeah, 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:44.120 you've got to go out, you know, you need to 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:46.120 go out and know how to sell your work. What 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:51.680 is the difference between advertising and branded content anymore? Or 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:54.480 how are you actually are you putting a line in 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:57.840 the sand? Do we need to anymore? Is that funny? 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.200 There's that good two thousand one wasn't at Seth Godin 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:05.320 said Content Marketing is all the marketing that's left. I 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:08.880 you know, I don't think we're there yet. I think 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:12.919 TV is still pretty powerful. I would say that, though, 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:15.320 wouldn't I work at and then look, I think the 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:19.840 idea of of a value exchange, but to me, that's 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:23.640 always informed good marketing as well. So you know how 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:28.000 much of this is new? I don't know. Theoretically not much, 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.640 but in practice, in the articulation, in the expression of it, 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:34.199 we are definitely living in a different time than we 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:36.679 were even five years ago. The output, when you think 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.800 about the traditional thirty and sixty, is focused on the brand. Correct, 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:42.919 When you think about the output of branded content in 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:44.760 the sense in which the three of us are talking 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:46.879 about it, the value and the focus is on the 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:50.720 consumer and protecting that experience and making it hopefully a 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:54.560 symbiotic relationship in the context of what they are watching. 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:57.760 And that's the fundamental difference. It's not a break in 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:00.280 the content. It's additive to the content, but it's also 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.720 about the context of the brand. The context of how 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:07.280 a brand shows up is so important and probably more 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.680 important now to brands than it ever has been before. Right, 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:13.600 And at the end, I go back to trumping your values. 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:17.120 Our first episode just so you know, auto, you should 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:20.040 listen to it if you haven't already. Um, we talk 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:25.000 about brands and and expressing their core values. I think 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:29.560 that content gives the ability. Good content gives the ability 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:32.960 for brands to both express their core values in context 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.800 of the consumer, and the consumer actually to interact with 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:39.560 the brand in their own context. Right, So it's this 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:44.160 two way. And and I think it was really interesting 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:47.480 as well, is that in what you say, oh, brands 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:51.359 expressing that cool values, that there a lot that scares 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:53.480 a lot of people and like, oh, you're you're expecting 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:55.119 me as a brand to take a stand and to 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:58.520 wait into these That is not. No, you don't have 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:01.440 to be divid iceive in order to take a stand, 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:04.080 and that's one of the great misconceptions, like what we 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:07.399 did on New Politics and purpose. And there's also a 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:10.360 difference between taking a stand and having a perspective. It's 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:13.520 like having a pulse and being a corpse there. I mean, right, 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:16.840 I didn't hear either one or the other. But there 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:20.399 are plenty of moments out there, like like New Year's 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.679 Like what I did that our first live ad was 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:26.600 around the eclipse. Yeah, that's great. But what was nice 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.960 about that is, alright, the country's and uproar, a lot 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:33.919 of people taking sides, but on that day, everybody looking 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:38.240 at the same moon, everybody united in this fabulous moment. 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:41.280 Same thing with New Year's. Show me somebody who's not 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:46.000 hopeful for the New year on December one, you know, 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:49.840 So there's plenty of it's talk to them January. Different purposes, 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:53.480 a very different thing of politics. Yeah. At a upfront 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:57.280 a couple of years back, I remember Donna Special up 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:01.639 on stage talking about Turner moving away from frequency in 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:03.400 the number of spots that they were putting in their 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:06.680 prime time programming and focusing on building longer pods to 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:09.120 allow for this narrative, this longer narrative which you call 0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:13.040 natas plus within prout programs on T and G, TBS, etcetera. 0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:17.160 Interestingly enough, NBC came out just a few days ago 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:20.199 and he said, we are going to be moving to 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:26.240 fewer of them to protect our programming as well. Is 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:29.920 there a trend to sort of protect the consumer experience 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:34.840 and does that change the difference between content versus commercial. Yeah, 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:38.000 I think there's a lot of experimentation happening, and for 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:42.879 good reason, right. You know, the problem or one of 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:47.639 the side effects of the rise in subscription models is 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:52.760 that it accentuates the adverts that remain, the commercials that 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:56.560 remain in your life. When you have a a newspaper subscription, 0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:59.959 when you have a Spotify subscription, when you have Netflix subscription, 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:04.800 all of these things they exacerbate the commercials that are left. 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:08.119 They feel even more painful, they feel even more interruptive. 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:12.639 So yeah, so you're right. The traditional broadcasters and cable nets, 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:15.880 they are you are seeing them cut their their adload. 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:21.560 NBC is is ten, you know, that's that's two cable 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:26.840 promos a sorry, two network promos per commercial break. We'll 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:29.800 get them to that target. So I think, honestly, I 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:32.000 think they I don't know if that's enough. You know, 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:36.720 we did fourteen hours of commercial replacement last year, which 0:21:36.760 --> 0:21:39.480 is where we put content like mine made by Courageous 0:21:40.040 --> 0:21:45.040 into commercial pods and kicked out all those thirties and 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:47.320 we did fourteen hours of that. So it's it's what 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:49.600 was the reaction for that. Some of them are holding 0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:54.600 the rating, which, as you know is is very depressive incredible, 0:21:55.200 --> 0:22:00.159 so um, which, yeah, so more of that please, But 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:01.960 that takes to take you know, we turned around an 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:04.240 oil tank. It it takes time. Is there a future 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:08.040 where brands start taking over and producing content themselves and 0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:11.960 maybe even more with editorial lens like what to you 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:15.000 is going to want sustain your business and grow it? 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:18.360 And then what do you think we're like some interesting 0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:20.639 pops or turns or swerves that you think may be 0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:24.320 coming in the industry, Well, it's already happening. I mean, 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:29.640 you know, did you guys see the Lego movie brought 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:31.480 I mean, we brought it. We've brought this up. We 0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:34.720 brought them in in the documentary space, you know you 0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:36.800 had that. But not every brand is going to make 0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:39.359 a Lego movie like a full feature film, right, Yeah, 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:41.720 I agreed, But I think in the short term there's 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:46.040 going to be a reckoning. Quite I agree, quite honestly. Well, 0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:49.479 I think you know a lot of these magazines with 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:55.000 websites are in trouble because because that the brand studio is, 0:22:55.040 --> 0:23:00.440 the cost of production is not commensurate with the ad 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:04.080 revenue that it generates. Right, they can't chuck. So you've 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:06.240 got to there is a certain point where you've got 0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:11.560 to have either an incredibly valuable audience or critical mass 0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:15.119 in terms of distribution to sustain these kind of custom 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:20.800 content deals, right like if you know, so for some 0:23:21.359 --> 0:23:23.280 what you're seeing is it's kind of like a death 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:26.960 rattle of of print. And you know Facebook's algorithm change, 0:23:26.960 --> 0:23:30.639 They're only going to accelerate that as well. So I 0:23:30.640 --> 0:23:32.320 think in the short term there'll be a reckoning. But 0:23:32.400 --> 0:23:35.159 long term, I think the future looks very bright for 0:23:35.200 --> 0:23:38.480