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Speaker 1: I'm off my game today. No, you're not. People are

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Speaker 1: going to have to start making better content. I think

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about this for a long time.

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Speaker 1: When you program for everyone, you program for no one.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a word purpose driven platform. Like we're

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Speaker 1: trying to get to substance? How was that? Are you

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Speaker 1: happy with that? This is marketing therapy right now? And

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Speaker 1: it really is? What's up? I'm Laura Coarnti and I'm

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Speaker 1: Alexa Christen. Welcome back to Atlantia. We are in March,

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Speaker 1: or in March. It's March madness. March is coming in

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Speaker 1: like a lion, so march. On to the topic of

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Speaker 1: this episode, the content studio. The content studio. So we

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Speaker 1: have Auto Bell, who's the chief creative officer of Courageous,

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Speaker 1: a Turner Media content studio, and they've been around for

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Speaker 1: a couple of years and kind of burning things up.

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Speaker 1: So in the spirit of it being our first creative

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Speaker 1: lead episode, we are going to make this a podcast

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Speaker 1: short and welcome Auto Bell to the show. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the show. Auto, Hello, Otto and you ladies. Nice to

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Speaker 1: see you both. Yes, thank you are so happy you're here.

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Speaker 1: We are very happy you're here, So I haven't seen

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Speaker 1: you since we were both at Ogilvie. You were leading

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Speaker 1: Ogilvy Entertainment. So tell us now you're at Creatius. What

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Speaker 1: was the path from agency into media company? UM? I

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Speaker 1: arrived at CNN because I had UM just like sounds

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Speaker 1: like you just went to the doors and you're like,

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Speaker 1: I'm it wasn't it was? It was. It was a fun,

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Speaker 1: fun origin. So I don't know if you know this one, Laura,

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Speaker 1: but it's um. We haven't talked about it. So I

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Speaker 1: got really friendly with um cat's head of sales at CNN, Kakugach,

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Speaker 1: that's right, and we became good friends over the years.

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Speaker 1: Because I was at Ogilvy, we were carving out all

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Speaker 1: of these interesting deals with like BBC World News and

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Speaker 1: CNBC in Times Now of India, all of these these

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Speaker 1: sort of multi platform TV lead deals for content, and

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Speaker 1: I was always trying to work with CNN with my

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Speaker 1: then boss Dog Scott. We were trying to we was

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Speaker 1: trying to get something away at CNN, but they were

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Speaker 1: so strict about their church and state they just wouldn't

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Speaker 1: do anything exotic in terms of hybrid deals or anything

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Speaker 1: like that. So it could but then a couple of

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Speaker 1: years later, UM cat gave me cool and she said, oh,

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Speaker 1: I want you to come in and let's chat about

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Speaker 1: a marketing job. And she introduced me to some of

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Speaker 1: her colleagues, McAll and we got to talking and it

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Speaker 1: became clear pretty quickly that they needed helping in brand

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Speaker 1: with branded content. And by that time Jeff Zuccerd arrived

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Speaker 1: and and he had really um he'd become a lot

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Speaker 1: more thoughtful about about the network, about adding entertainment properties

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Speaker 1: to the network. That kind of broadened the definition of journalism,

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Speaker 1: you know, stuff like Bourdaine and Lisa Laying and w

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Speaker 1: Kamal Bell and so the company was ready to do

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Speaker 1: to do more and to um but in but obviously

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Speaker 1: in a very careful way. So we struck on the

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Speaker 1: idea of setting up a brand of content studio. How

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Speaker 1: many years ago was that two and a half two

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Speaker 1: and a half years ago, So right in the prime

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Speaker 1: of everybody started Russia, there was like t brand existed. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there was one or two. Um but that's the thing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you swing a cat now on this town,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna hit somebody who's opening a content studio right Well,

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Speaker 1: about that, let's go right there. Well, they're everywhere. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we very when we set up Courageous Um we named

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Speaker 1: after Ted Turners, America's cup winning yacht actually, but it

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Speaker 1: also speaks to the mindset um that we want our

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Speaker 1: clients to be in, right, We want them to be

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Speaker 1: brave and bold and and and and open minded and

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Speaker 1: generally courageous. But the but yeah, with everybody opening a

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Speaker 1: brand studio, I mean, the trick is you've got to

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Speaker 1: really look very carefully at what sits behind that. It's

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Speaker 1: very easy to hang a shingle. But to my experience,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you guys probably know no better, but everything

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Speaker 1: that I see that seems to be a lot of

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Speaker 1: hollow studios out there. So a lot of um account

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Speaker 1: handlers or folks who will kind of take your order

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Speaker 1: and then they'll turn around and they'll produce something. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they'll hire a bunch of freelancers to actually execute

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Speaker 1: the work. Or it's maybe a rebadged marketing department right

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Speaker 1: going by another name in a cool new corner of

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Speaker 1: the office. We we built this, We built Courageous from

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Speaker 1: the ground up. We took a very different and that

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Speaker 1: was part of the part of the deal. When I

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Speaker 1: joined is that we're going to need to do things

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Speaker 1: a certain way. Had a lot of a lot of

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Speaker 1: scars and a lot of lessons from from Ogilvie and

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Speaker 1: wanted to build something quite, quite deliberate and quite self sufficient.

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Speaker 1: So we set out and we we we hired a

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Speaker 1: full time team. I think we're up to about thirty

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Speaker 1: five full time staff. Now. UM, well, everybody makes and

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Speaker 1: does so with it is a lot when you consider

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Speaker 1: that everybody is either a cinematographer or a craft editor,

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Speaker 1: or a filmmaker director, or a graphic designer or a

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Speaker 1: web developer. You don't have account people running around. No,

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Speaker 1: that's handled by other parts of business UM, which is great.

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Speaker 1: So we just focus on actually making the stuff. What

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Speaker 1: differentiates Courageous from everything else that that is in the market.

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Speaker 1: What sort of the elevator pitch um when you walk

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Speaker 1: in and are going up against UM bids for commercial

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Speaker 1: spots to full live production, uh, cinematography, What does that

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Speaker 1: look like UM to you? Because there are skills I

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Speaker 1: think that you have within the walls of Courageous UM

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Speaker 1: that many folks don't. Yeah, thank you. I mean in

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Speaker 1: terms of differentiation, it is it's self sufficiency with that ability,

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Speaker 1: I mean we're doing things that at one five the

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Speaker 1: cost of a of a creative agency or a glossy

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Speaker 1: production company because we've taken the two biggest costs out

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Speaker 1: of production. So we don't have day rates for freelancers

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Speaker 1: and we don't when we own our own gears, So

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Speaker 1: that is one big differentiator. But then we're also pretty particular.

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Speaker 1: Snobby is another word about the folks who we've brought

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Speaker 1: on board, because in a world where everybody wants good,

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Speaker 1: fast and affordable, the good part, the quality part can

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Speaker 1: often suffer. And deliberately tried to hire the same caliber

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Speaker 1: of people that you'd find kicking around and see an

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Speaker 1: n newsroom. We have them courageous working in the dedicated

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Speaker 1: way for brands. So I'm talking about Emmy and Morrow

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Speaker 1: winning filmmakers. Um. I mean, we've only been going just

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Speaker 1: over a couple of years and I would hasten say

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Speaker 1: we're probably the most awarded brand studio of in America

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Speaker 1: this year already, you know, everything from the can lines

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Speaker 1: to to Digit Day naming as the best publisher for video.

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Speaker 1: So we are We're very focused on the people that

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Speaker 1: we bring in to make sure that they can um

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Speaker 1: deliver at at a at a high quality, you know,

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Speaker 1: the kind of commercial production standards which brands expect. You know,

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Speaker 1: just because they're moving, they're moving maybe from an AD

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Speaker 1: from an agency of record model to an AD more

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Speaker 1: project by project basis, they're not given up that that

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Speaker 1: polish that they have spent years and billions of dollars honing,

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Speaker 1: you know, like they still very they still care a

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Speaker 1: great deal about that. So you know, we're very conscious

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Speaker 1: of that, and I try to make sure that the

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Speaker 1: work is um certainly looks looks good enough. But then

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Speaker 1: also the big the big difference, and we can talk

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Speaker 1: more about agency versus publisher, but we're going to go there.

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Speaker 1: But I mean that that idea of having a value exchange. Now,

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Speaker 1: now there's so you ask, you know, making commercials and

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Speaker 1: that sort of stuff. Our commercial will be a secondary

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Speaker 1: output of what it is that we do. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not really in the business of making thirty second

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Speaker 1: spots of trying to replace a traditional creative agency. You

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Speaker 1: even want to make them do CNN or just sorry,

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Speaker 1: just Turner want you to do it? Well, No, I

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Speaker 1: mean what we're seeing is a lot of clients asking

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Speaker 1: for it. You know, they'll startup. Yeah, they'll they'll well,

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Speaker 1: what what happens is we'll start off making something too three,

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Speaker 1: maybe an event something like that. They'll see it online

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Speaker 1: or they'll see it on TV. You know. We have

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Speaker 1: these pod takeovers where were Native plus, where we just

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Speaker 1: run a piece of content instead upon a bunch of thirties.

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Speaker 1: They'll see it, they like it, and then they'll want

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Speaker 1: to graduate it to a full campaign. So they want

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Speaker 1: to take it off of our network and play it everywhere,

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Speaker 1: you know, on the side of a building in Austin,

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Speaker 1: or in cinemas or around the Super Bowl. I mean,

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Speaker 1: these are all real examples. That's a good question. Is

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Speaker 1: you said campaign, but then you were talking about a

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Speaker 1: specific execution. I mean, are you seeing the work that

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Speaker 1: you're doing informing larger kind of campaign or campaign strategy.

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Speaker 1: I'm seeing them being picked up and used as a campaign. Okay,

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Speaker 1: what's the best brief you've gotten? Um? The one that

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Speaker 1: can change, you know, the one where I can do

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Speaker 1: what I want? Can you still pay me? I got

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Speaker 1: far better people than than I'll give you an example, um,

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Speaker 1: video game company Square Nicks. They they do Hitman and

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Speaker 1: Lara Croft and stuff. They have another franchise, d s

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Speaker 1: x UM. It's set like fifteen years in the future

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Speaker 1: and mankind is divided between people who have changed their

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Speaker 1: bodies with technology and people who haven't. It's like this

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Speaker 1: war going on sounds like my kind of game. It's

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Speaker 1: mine kind of divided day sex mine kind of. So

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Speaker 1: they came to us and they're looking to go beyond

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Speaker 1: average gamers. Um. The initial brief that came in was

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Speaker 1: for like some homepage takeovers the day the game released,

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Speaker 1: Like why you know why because people don't even think

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Speaker 1: about media, right, so how can they go on brief

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Speaker 1: you on something that they came and they said, we

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Speaker 1: want some because impact. Well, yeah, I mean company who's

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Speaker 1: creating cinematic content that people interact with. What was it

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Speaker 1: good about the brief was they listened. So they started

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Speaker 1: to look at the brief and because they're journalists, they

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Speaker 1: can't help themselves. These are a lot of my my filmmakers.

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Speaker 1: They these are the people on your journalism. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: they start looking they're like whatever, They start scratching away

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Speaker 1: at it and they're like, well, you realize that this

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Speaker 1: isn't science fiction. Like a lot of what your game

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Speaker 1: deals with that's actually happening now, and they found, you know,

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Speaker 1: the first cyber hate crime in France like six months earlier,

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Speaker 1: and and then the and then what they pointed out

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Speaker 1: though in the case that we made back to the

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Speaker 1: client is yet there is no bill on the floor

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Speaker 1: of Congress. There's no one body who's thinking about this

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Speaker 1: subject matter. This is all you know. The science is

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Speaker 1: galloping ahead, but nobody's nobody's tackling it in a thoughtful way.

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Speaker 1: So what we ended up doing was we ended up

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Speaker 1: having the first UM summit on human augmentation, like the

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Speaker 1: first conference for cyborgs in the history of the world.

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Speaker 1: So we'll be back after this quick break. So we're

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Speaker 1: back in the studio with maybe first creative on the show,

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Speaker 1: officially our first creative on the show, Atto Bell, chief

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Speaker 1: creative officer of Courageous. Can you explain to our listeners

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Speaker 1: how do you push back or redirect the conversation. So

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Speaker 1: you said you came to the table with insights, you

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Speaker 1: were looking at weight, deeper contacts, differ context. What what

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Speaker 1: it was that process like for your team to sort

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Speaker 1: of pivot the client to get to from hoping to

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Speaker 1: take over to a cyborg conference. If you didn't even blink,

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Speaker 1: it's um. It's the first word. Well, there's a couple

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Speaker 1: of things. There's UM, a lot of communication and then yeah,

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Speaker 1: backing it up with insights and research. You're not going

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Speaker 1: to get past go without a counter argument, you know,

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Speaker 1: a big media insight backed up with statistics, UM and

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Speaker 1: some kind of concrete research. Before you go on any

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Speaker 1: kind of flight of fancy or creative meandering there there

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Speaker 1: has to be the counterpoint, like we heard you on this,

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Speaker 1: but did you know that x um so they wanted

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Speaker 1: to go beyond a hardcore gaming office audience and we

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Speaker 1: did that. You know, it's it's public knowledge. We we

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Speaker 1: boost the sales by on Amazon during the during the campaign,

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Speaker 1: like we have real results on how we affected the numbers.

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Speaker 1: You've got to have the client who's open to it.

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Speaker 1: I mean the amount of time that we'll spend and

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Speaker 1: we've worked together, you know, the amount of time will

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Speaker 1: spend talking about things in pre production. It saves you

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Speaker 1: so much time later write. One of my pet pees

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Speaker 1: with publishers is like trust us. You know, hey, we've

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Speaker 1: got this from here on out time. What I haven't

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Speaker 1: done right is dumped something on your desk after two

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Speaker 1: months of radio silence and said like, hey, review this

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Speaker 1: rough cut, and it's a million miles away from anybody

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Speaker 1: who works with Alex, and I know that we don't

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Speaker 1: live in silence. So um, it's interesting. Alex and I

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Speaker 1: go back and forth a lot. And you were getting

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Speaker 1: to this earlier on the conversation around talent and the

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Speaker 1: types of backgrounds or skill sets that you're pulling from.

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Speaker 1: What you were just described riving would be research and

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Speaker 1: strategy in a way in which you're pulling from different departments.

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Speaker 1: I know that you have Launchpad, for example, which is

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Speaker 1: a tremendous social insights tool that your team uses to

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Speaker 1: field editorial. Can you talk about some of the inputs

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Speaker 1: and what the skill sets look like in this sort

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Speaker 1: of modern version of content creation. Well, in my case

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Speaker 1: where I've sort of netted out is it's weighted in

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Speaker 1: favor of folks with editorial backgrounds, with a healthy mix

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Speaker 1: of advertising professionals, and then just the dash a data

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Speaker 1: science that would be that that would be the recipe

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Speaker 1: that I'm cooking with. So those editorial guys, Um, those

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Speaker 1: people are worth their weight in gold. It's a hell

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Speaker 1: of a lot easier to teach marketing to a journalist

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Speaker 1: than it is to teach a marketer how to be

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Speaker 1: a journalist, like their instincts to kind of source report,

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Speaker 1: to get on the phone and track down a right

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Speaker 1: story and not stop until they've got to an under

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Speaker 1: explored angle or an interesting narrative hook like that. That tenacity,

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Speaker 1: it has been a revelation for me coming from advertising. Um.

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Speaker 1: On top of that, UM, it is good to have.

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Speaker 1: I don't think you talked about that enough, by the way, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that when you kind of go into these meetings.

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Speaker 1: You know, for anybody who has a studio, everybody talks

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Speaker 1: about we have the pipes, we have the scale, we're

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Speaker 1: built into X, Y and Z network. But actually coming

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Speaker 1: at it, that's a point of differentiation in comparison to

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Speaker 1: a creative agency. Right, you're selling this is a commercial

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Speaker 1: but this is a commercial company you've got And and

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Speaker 1: to that point though, that's one of the promises that

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Speaker 1: I make to the journalists who do come over and

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Speaker 1: and work with me and concentrate on brands, is you know,

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Speaker 1: you give me a few years of your time and

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Speaker 1: I will in turn make you kind of fluent, commercially

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Speaker 1: fluent right, like tell you how to market and how

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Speaker 1: to market yourself, and which in today's business isn't essential,

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Speaker 1: it's absolutely crucial. I mean, if you've got a passion

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Speaker 1: project you want to extract money from somebody in order

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Speaker 1: to realize you'll create a vision, chances are you're gonna

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Speaker 1: have to walk into a room and present and and

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Speaker 1: know how to lay out an argument and and explain

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Speaker 1: to a financier or somebody who's commissioning a project, why,

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Speaker 1: why you deserve it. I always thought it was fascinating

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Speaker 1: that j school and business school were separate tracks. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, there's really a

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Speaker 1: need for at least the business school angle to live

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Speaker 1: within journalism. It was interesting in yeah, the Oscars this weekend,

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Speaker 1: you know, Francis McDorman is saying, finance our films. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you've got to go out, you know, you need to

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Speaker 1: go out and know how to sell your work. What

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Speaker 1: is the difference between advertising and branded content anymore? Or

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Speaker 1: how are you actually are you putting a line in

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Speaker 1: the sand? Do we need to anymore? Is that funny?

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Speaker 1: There's that good two thousand one wasn't at Seth Godin

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Speaker 1: said Content Marketing is all the marketing that's left. I

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't think we're there yet. I think

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Speaker 1: TV is still pretty powerful. I would say that, though,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't I work at and then look, I think the

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Speaker 1: idea of of a value exchange, but to me, that's

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Speaker 1: always informed good marketing as well. So you know how

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Speaker 1: much of this is new? I don't know. Theoretically not much,

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Speaker 1: but in practice, in the articulation, in the expression of it,

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Speaker 1: we are definitely living in a different time than we

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Speaker 1: were even five years ago. The output, when you think

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Speaker 1: about the traditional thirty and sixty, is focused on the brand. Correct,

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Speaker 1: When you think about the output of branded content in

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Speaker 1: the sense in which the three of us are talking

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Speaker 1: about it, the value and the focus is on the

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Speaker 1: consumer and protecting that experience and making it hopefully a

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Speaker 1: symbiotic relationship in the context of what they are watching.

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Speaker 1: And that's the fundamental difference. It's not a break in

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Speaker 1: the content. It's additive to the content, but it's also

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Speaker 1: about the context of the brand. The context of how

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Speaker 1: a brand shows up is so important and probably more

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Speaker 1: important now to brands than it ever has been before. Right,

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Speaker 1: And at the end, I go back to trumping your values.

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Speaker 1: Our first episode just so you know, auto, you should

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Speaker 1: listen to it if you haven't already. Um, we talk

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Speaker 1: about brands and and expressing their core values. I think

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Speaker 1: that content gives the ability. Good content gives the ability

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Speaker 1: for brands to both express their core values in context

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Speaker 1: of the consumer, and the consumer actually to interact with

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Speaker 1: the brand in their own context. Right, So it's this

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Speaker 1: two way. And and I think it was really interesting

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Speaker 1: as well, is that in what you say, oh, brands

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Speaker 1: expressing that cool values, that there a lot that scares

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Speaker 1: a lot of people and like, oh, you're you're expecting

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Speaker 1: me as a brand to take a stand and to

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Speaker 1: wait into these That is not. No, you don't have

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Speaker 1: to be divid iceive in order to take a stand,

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Speaker 1: and that's one of the great misconceptions, like what we

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Speaker 1: did on New Politics and purpose. And there's also a

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Speaker 1: difference between taking a stand and having a perspective. It's

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Speaker 1: like having a pulse and being a corpse there. I mean, right,

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Speaker 1: I didn't hear either one or the other. But there

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Speaker 1: are plenty of moments out there, like like New Year's

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Speaker 1: Like what I did that our first live ad was

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Speaker 1: around the eclipse. Yeah, that's great. But what was nice

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Speaker 1: about that is, alright, the country's and uproar, a lot

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Speaker 1: of people taking sides, but on that day, everybody looking

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Speaker 1: at the same moon, everybody united in this fabulous moment.

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Speaker 1: Same thing with New Year's. Show me somebody who's not

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Speaker 1: hopeful for the New year on December one, you know,

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Speaker 1: So there's plenty of it's talk to them January. Different purposes,

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Speaker 1: a very different thing of politics. Yeah. At a upfront

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Speaker 1: a couple of years back, I remember Donna Special up

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Speaker 1: on stage talking about Turner moving away from frequency in

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Speaker 1: the number of spots that they were putting in their

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Speaker 1: prime time programming and focusing on building longer pods to

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Speaker 1: allow for this narrative, this longer narrative which you call

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Speaker 1: natas plus within prout programs on T and G, TBS, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, NBC came out just a few days ago

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Speaker 1: and he said, we are going to be moving to

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Speaker 1: fewer of them to protect our programming as well. Is

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Speaker 1: there a trend to sort of protect the consumer experience

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Speaker 1: and does that change the difference between content versus commercial. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of experimentation happening, and for

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Speaker 1: good reason, right. You know, the problem or one of

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Speaker 1: the side effects of the rise in subscription models is

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Speaker 1: that it accentuates the adverts that remain, the commercials that

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Speaker 1: remain in your life. When you have a a newspaper subscription,

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Speaker 1: when you have a Spotify subscription, when you have Netflix subscription,

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Speaker 1: all of these things they exacerbate the commercials that are left.

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Speaker 1: They feel even more painful, they feel even more interruptive.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, so you're right. The traditional broadcasters and cable nets,

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Speaker 1: they are you are seeing them cut their their adload.

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Speaker 1: NBC is is ten, you know, that's that's two cable

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Speaker 1: promos a sorry, two network promos per commercial break. We'll

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Speaker 1: get them to that target. So I think, honestly, I

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Speaker 1: think they I don't know if that's enough. You know,

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Speaker 1: we did fourteen hours of commercial replacement last year, which

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Speaker 1: is where we put content like mine made by Courageous

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Speaker 1: into commercial pods and kicked out all those thirties and

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Speaker 1: we did fourteen hours of that. So it's it's what

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Speaker 1: was the reaction for that. Some of them are holding

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Speaker 1: the rating, which, as you know is is very depressive incredible,

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Speaker 1: so um, which, yeah, so more of that please, But

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Speaker 1: that takes to take you know, we turned around an

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Speaker 1: oil tank. It it takes time. Is there a future

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Speaker 1: where brands start taking over and producing content themselves and

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Speaker 1: maybe even more with editorial lens like what to you

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Speaker 1: is going to want sustain your business and grow it?

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Speaker 1: And then what do you think we're like some interesting

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Speaker 1: pops or turns or swerves that you think may be

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Speaker 1: coming in the industry, Well, it's already happening. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, did you guys see the Lego movie brought

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Speaker 1: I mean, we brought it. We've brought this up. We

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Speaker 1: brought them in in the documentary space, you know you

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Speaker 1: had that. But not every brand is going to make

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Speaker 1: a Lego movie like a full feature film, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I agreed, But I think in the short term there's

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Speaker 1: going to be a reckoning. Quite I agree, quite honestly. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think you know a lot of these magazines with

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Speaker 1: websites are in trouble because because that the brand studio is,

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Speaker 1: the cost of production is not commensurate with the ad

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Speaker 1: revenue that it generates. Right, they can't chuck. So you've

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Speaker 1: got to there is a certain point where you've got

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Speaker 1: to have either an incredibly valuable audience or critical mass

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Speaker 1: in terms of distribution to sustain these kind of custom

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Speaker 1: content deals, right like if you know, so for some

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Speaker 1: what you're seeing is it's kind of like a death

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Speaker 1: rattle of of print. And you know Facebook's algorithm change,

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Speaker 1: They're only going to accelerate that as well. So I

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Speaker 1: think in the short term there'll be a reckoning. But

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Speaker 1: long term, I think the future looks very bright for

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Speaker 1: what we do. I think all the trade winds are,

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Speaker 1: you know, pushing in our favor, and I think you

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Speaker 1: will see more and more commercial replacement. I think you'll

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Speaker 1: see more and more addressable UM custom content UM. And

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Speaker 1: I think it will be at the vanguard of a

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Speaker 1: lot of these changes that we've been promised for so

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Speaker 1: long UM, in terms of attribution models and and addressable

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Speaker 1: I think custom content will increasingly be bound up in

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Speaker 1: those discussions as the primary vehicle to get us to

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Speaker 1: that nirvana that you know, that future we've been promised

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Speaker 1: for so long. Do you see Courageous becoming the agency

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Speaker 1: of record for blue chip brands? UM? Yeah, yeah, I do,

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Speaker 1: certainly entertainment agency of record UM. But then I also

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Speaker 1: think the ao R model is somewhat outdated you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm quite happy. Like, look, I mean, I really pride

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Speaker 1: ourselves on our annuities. I think it's it's the way

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Speaker 1: that you build a sustainable business. I want Courageous to

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Speaker 1: be around twenty years from now, and I want people

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Speaker 1: to look at it in the same way that they

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Speaker 1: look at Ogilviana resume and like that place is a

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Speaker 1: great quality. Yeah, that's a great university for for what

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Speaker 1: you know, that's a badge of come on in the

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Speaker 1: water's warm kind of thing. But right now, would you

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Speaker 1: say that most brands are discovering you because they're coming

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Speaker 1: in through the front door of CNN from a media

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Speaker 1: perspect to have our people coming in from the side

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00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 1: door looking for creative solutions. Now, the majority is it's

428
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 1: coming through the UH, through the through the traditional media

429
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 1: sells absolutely, I would say that, yeah, a slim majority.

430
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: What's it going to take for that to become a

431
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: standalone service? I'm not looking. I'm fine servicing media deals

432
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: at the moment. I don't have a um a big

433
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 1: interest in a white label production operation. There are plenty

434
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 1: of people. In fact, that's kind of a tough business

435
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 1: and increasingly is and I think it is going to

436
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 1: see its own degree of contraction as well. I mean,

437
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 1: I feel very good about the production model today. That said,

438
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,199
Speaker 1: this whole thing is changing. Like if you don't if

439
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: you don't like standing on a burning platform, you probably

440
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,919
Speaker 1: shouldn't be in marketing and advertising right now because it

441
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,719
Speaker 1: is changing day by day. But as of today, do

442
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: you see courageous in And Tom, you kind of said

443
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: no to this, but I'm going to ask anyway, do

444
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: you see courageous inventing any new forms of media that

445
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: are um, you know, based on specific content or I

446
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: P uniqueness. Yeah, I think one of the great revenue

447
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: areas for us in the future is in some way

448
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 1: or another. And we've had lots of conversations about it.

449
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: We haven't we haven't landed on exactly how best to

450
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: do this, but it is unignorable the fact that we

451
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: are generating so much I P on a daily basis.

452
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: You know, I was in conversations like full stats, CNN,

453
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: Great Big Story. These guys are churning out stories, headlines,

454
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 1: investigative stories, feature reports. I mean, I was in a

455
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: conversation recently with a competitor from a development team on

456
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: a cable company and he goes Oh yeah, My my

457
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 1: staff might runs a development apart because they love Great

458
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 1: Big Story. Because they wake up every morning and the

459
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 1: first thing they do they check out Great Big Story

460
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: for ideas well, for ideas for them exactly. And I

461
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: think that we should be doing a better job of

462
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 1: harnessing that. And we've got a lot of people who've

463
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: got great commercial instincts. You know, that's what we do

464
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 1: all day for our advertisers. So UM, I think we

465
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: should um, you know that that that's that's one potential

466
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: area I think in which we can grow. Do you

467
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 1: see a brand ever buying courageous? Oh, I don't know,

468
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. Again, let's see what

469
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: happens to the landscape in the marketplace. But right now

470
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: I think it's it's um, it's settled nicely, um where

471
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: it should be incided to turn a servicing, you know,

472
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: working outwards. So it's time. It's time. We're going to

473
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: play our favorite games. You know this game she never

474
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 1: told you No, I didn't tell him. I was creative.

475
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 1: He can come up with something on the spot. So

476
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: we play our version of kill Fuck Mary, which is

477
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: called killed by d I, Y killed by d I y,

478
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 1: and it's what would you kill in the market? What

479
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: would you buy? And what would you do yourself? So

480
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 1: I don't know what would you kill? What would you kill?

481
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 1: I would kill um lazy p s A s All right,

482
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,679
Speaker 1: don't you give us an example? Well, you know, you

483
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: see a lot of them. Taxi TV is like a

484
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 1: nest of bad p s A. You know, it's always

485
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: like or a brilliant revenue stream strategy. Oh yeah, no,

486
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong. The business model is fantastic. I

487
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 1: just mean the content. You know, whenever you see it's

488
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: always a celeb holding a sign in front of like

489
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: a white psych and then it's like written signs exactly

490
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: and then they prayed twenty of them out and that's

491
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: supposed to have a real impact on you. I think

492
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: there's just that whole industry can be so much more powerful,

493
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: and they, I don't know, they just let themselves down sometimes.

494
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: I would really want to improve the state of p

495
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: s as generally Like that, What was the next one?

496
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: What would you buy? What I buy? It would have

497
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: to be some kind of proprietary technology, because you know,

498
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: buying like a VR company or an influencer network. I

499
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: mean those are all things. You can hire somebody to

500
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: do that and you don't have to pay a premium.

501
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: So what tech like would change your life? Embedded branchips.

502
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: I think it's got to be something like that. It's

503
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: got to be something. It's gotta be, you know, maybe

504
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: something voice driven right now, but something is something really like,

505
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: something that is proprietary where you're not just buying It

506
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: would be three small people who I don't know, something

507
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: like that, something like some kind of next um, some

508
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: kind of frightening delivery system. Right like, so you're still

509
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: black mirror, like you really want to be black mire

510
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: And what would you do yourself? Something you've seen in

511
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: the market that you're like, I could have done this better,

512
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: the auto bell way um experiential I we've we've dipped

513
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: our toe into a few, you know, tad like events.

514
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: Everything a tadlike event because it's the easiest shorthand like

515
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: the monika for it. It's just it's just a way

516
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: for people to But even that, I think that format

517
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: is right for overhaul as well. I just think blending.

518
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: I think well, I think events are a really efficient

519
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: way to harvest a great deal of reusable content. Generally,

520
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: I think they're fantastic for that. And you know, in

521
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: a day you can get eight hours of content which

522
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: you can dice up and and and put out into

523
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: the world. But the actual occasion itself, properly scheduling that,

524
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: properly um curating it so that you've got everything from

525
00:30:54,400 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: music to food to insightful human stories. You know, no, please, really,

526
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: I think we've all been to those conferences held by banks,

527
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: held by management consultancies, held by our agencies, and they

528
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: they they're not that interactive, they're not that varied. You know,

529
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: it's a lot to you guys do that at the

530
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: upfront this year. Maybe that's uh, yeah, yeah, have an idea, Yeah,

531
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: a little a little bit close maybe maybe nineteen Yeah, okay, wait,

532
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: one more question. Sorry, what thing? Whether it's some kind

533
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: of physical art piece, um, audio things some band er into,

534
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: Like what are you jamming on right now? I got

535
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: I got my new new film project coming out. We

536
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 1: just got financing for that. I can't talk about the

537
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 1: subject matter, but it's um, it's it's gonna be uh,

538
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: it's gonna be a doozy. It's going to be a

539
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:55,959
Speaker 1: hell of a film. So I'm very excited about that.

540
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: And and you know the full feature film. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

541
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: that's what going for a cinematic feature documentary. All right,

542
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: Otto Bell, always a pleasure. People want to get ahold

543
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: of you? How do they do it? Also Dot Bell

544
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: at Turner dot com. Thank you Auto again. I don't

545
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: think I've seen Auto for a few years now, so

546
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: it's nice for me to see Auto. You've been working

547
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: with him, Yeah, he's He's tremendous, and it's really fun

548
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: to watch them sort of differentiate themselves in the market,

549
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: and which is a very competitive space right now, super competitive.

550
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: And I liked, Actually, I liked the honest answer. Everyone

551
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: says this part of it. Everyone says, like, Okay, we

552
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: all know there's a little bit of a doomsday coming

553
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: for like content studios and branded content in media companies.

554
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: And he said that. But what I liked was a

555
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: very honest response of like, this is a tough game,

556
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: right and so I'm going to get the best people,

557
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: and I'm very comfortable being a part of the media

558
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: company that I have, and right now they're good with that. Right.

559
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: He wasn't looking to white label his Lucian. He wasn't

560
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: looking to spin off and become a standalone creative shop.

561
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: He was very comfortable playing in the space knowing what

562
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: a network like Turner brings the space, and that's quality content,

563
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: that's global pipes, that's differentiated. You know, I p in

564
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: the market UM, and it's interesting. I think that they're

565
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 1: just getting started and I'm really excited to see where

566
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: they had next. One thing that I think that Turner

567
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: has that a lot of people don't have. A lot

568
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: of media companies don't have is the ability to be

569
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: live anywhere, kind of in a minute, in a second.

570
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: And you guys prove that out with some of the

571
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 1: you know, it took work, but and and pre planning,

572
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: but you proved that out with a live ad you

573
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: guys did with Mass Mutual. I would love to see

574
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: programming where brands come in and actually do programming with

575
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: them like that, but it's it's commercial, and I think

576
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: people would watch it if it was great programming. Totally.

577
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,719
Speaker 1: The biggest takeaway I took was um the idea of

578
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: interspersing journalists and people with strict editorial background owns in

579
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: the branded content space, and that's something I'll take away

580
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: and start thinking about how we incorporate that in the

581
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: agency model because it's not a skill set I think

582
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 1: many people are looking for. And until he said it,

583
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: I didn't really kind of connect the dots around the

584
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: rigor and fact checking and um looking for what he

585
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 1: said a different way in and an angle that And

586
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: I think it's one of those things that has been

587
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: um un merchandised as when it comes to branded studios.

588
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: I think that like to that point, and one of

589
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 1: the big things on the marketer side that's like boggles

590
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 1: my mind is like, do we actually expect our creatives,

591
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: whether it's at a branded studio or content studio, an agency,

592
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 1: a media company, to actually give us really rich and

593
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: phenomenal stories, right, and content and ideas when we're doing

594
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: it in a fucking one page briefright. So with that,

595
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: thank you, Cameron Drews. Are all our friends and family

596
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: at Panoply, met turk Andy Bowers, Jacob Weisberg. We will

597
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,919
Speaker 1: be back in two weeks after south By coming back

598
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: at your atland. Yeah see out there y'all. Mm full disclosure.

599
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: Our opinions are our own. Who do you think outside

600
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 1: of courageous because you of course they're going to say courageous, Like,

601
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 1: who do you think is actually producing the best content

602
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: the Bronze studios or just in general. I mean you're

603
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: going to say, like the BBC because you're British. What

604
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: am I enjoying right now? I think the New Times

605
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: do a great job, you know, I think, UM, I

606
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: think Anonymous is the kind of company that Anonymous and

607
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 1: what Patrick milling Smith is doing with Smuggler, those are

608
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: a couple of companies that I you know, that I

609
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: would aspire to to. I mean, with Courageous, those are

610
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 1: like but those are like production companies. Well they well

611
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,720
Speaker 1: they're diversified, you know, like like they have a bedrock

612
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: of a commercial business. Radicals another great example of this.

613
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,439
Speaker 1: Um they've got a bedrock of commercial business which does

614
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: very well, world class work. But then you look at

615
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: them and they're diversified, and they have been from diversified

616
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 1: into like editorial Broadway. Yeah, yeah, I mean Anonymous, You've

617
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: got an Oscar winning studio, UM, Patrick's got VR and

618
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 1: and Broadway going very nicely. Radical or obviously you know

619
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: it must be one of the top five producers for

620
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: Netflix at this point, Like UM, there are great opportunities,

621
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 1: and I think my point is this, like I would

622
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: like to grow a business where it is totally format agnostic,

623
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 1: right like where the medium or the story dictates the

624
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: medium and the channel. We're getting there. One of the

625
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: nice things of out being at CNN is I can

626
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: play this game a little bit. I've got two TV stations,

627
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 1: we've got an international network, we've got the airport network,

628
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: we've got a Snapchat channel, weve got V O D,

629
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 1: we've got O T T, we've got biggest social handle

630
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:16,359
Speaker 1: and us. What that equates to is a channel agnostic

631
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: sort of approach whereby you tell me your problem as

632
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: a brand channel challenge exactly, and I'll build you an event,

633
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 1: or I'll build you a TV show, or I'll build

634
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 1: you a short form film series, or I'll put all

635
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: of those things together working in concert. So I'd love

636
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 1: to get to that, um, you know, even outside the

637
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: commercial realm marketing. Yeah, and STELLF financing marketing and financing

638
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: and that that's that's the that's the utopia. You know.

639
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: I've done it a couple of times in my career.

640
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: Literally