1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Bookmarked by Terese's Book Club is presented by Apple Books. 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:09,399 Speaker 1: Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. I'm your host, 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: Stanielle Robe, and this week we're talking about something fundamental, 4 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: something at the core of who we are, mattering. What 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: it means to mean something, to matter to someone, to 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: have value, and to serve a purpose. Today we're talking 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: with journalist and author Jennifer Wallace about her new nonfiction book, Mattering. 8 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: Jennifer spent six years interviewing people across different generations and 9 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: backgrounds to understand why feeling replaceable or overlooked or invisible 10 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,200 Speaker 1: has become so common and what that tells us about 11 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: the growing loneliness of modern life and throughout it all. 12 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: Jennifer asked two questions that have been sitting with me 13 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: since we talked. What does it mean to feel like 14 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: you matter? And what happens to us when we don't? 15 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: So I want to ask you two questions as well. 16 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: Do you feel like you matter? And do the people 17 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: in your life know they matter to you? And yes, 18 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: it's February and it is almost Valentine's Day, so of 19 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: course thoughts about connection are in the air. And I 20 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: think this conversation invites us to think about connection in 21 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: a deeper, more lasting way, beyond romance and into the 22 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: everyday moments where belonging is built. So if you've ever 23 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: wondered whether you fit into the world or how to 24 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: help others feel like they belong, you are exactly in 25 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: the right place. Let's turn the page with Jennifer Wallace. Hi, Jennifer, 26 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: welcome to the club. 27 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on. 28 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: So you are a two time author and your latest 29 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: book is called Mattering, and it's an exploration into how 30 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: we can feel like we matter and why it is 31 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: so important. And my first question for you is maybe 32 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: a deceptively simple one, what does it mean to matter? 33 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 2: Oh, that's a great question. So mattering is a fundamental 34 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 2: human need that all of us have to feel valued 35 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 2: and to have a chance to add value to the world. 36 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 2: And this need is going on met and there are 37 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 2: lots of reasons why it's going on met today. But 38 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 2: what researchers will tell you is that when you don't 39 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 2: meet this need, you suffer. You feel lonely, anxious, depressed, 40 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 2: a sense of meaningless in your life, your relationships feel hollow. 41 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 2: When the need is met, you thrive, you engage, you contribute, 42 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 2: your relationships feel deep and nurturing. So it is a 43 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 2: critical human need that is going on met I would argue, 44 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 2: to some extent in every single person. 45 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: I'm curious how we feel we matter in our own life? 46 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 1: Is it the stories that we tell ourselves? 47 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 2: Is it? 48 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: If you're saying it's not our accomplishments to so much 49 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: of it's done from childhood. 50 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: It does. But it doesn't mean if you didn't have 51 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 2: that feeling that you can't find that feeling. Again, Mattering 52 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 2: starts from the earliest of days, so when you are born, 53 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 2: your instincts are there to matter. So just to give you, 54 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 2: like a little nerd out for a minute, I'm mattering please. So. 55 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 2: Researchers who study it say, after the human drive for 56 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:29,959 Speaker 2: food and shelter, it's the need to matter that drives 57 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 2: human behavior, for better or for worse. So when we 58 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 2: feel like we matter, we show up to the world 59 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 2: in positive ways. We want to connect with people and contribute. 60 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 2: When we are made to feel like we don't matter, 61 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 2: we can withdraw, become anxious, depressed. We might turn to 62 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 2: substances to try to alleviate that pain, or we might 63 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 2: lash out and anger, school shooters. I think about online attacks, 64 00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 2: political extremes, you know, road rage. These are desperate attempts 65 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 2: by people to say, you know, I'll show you why matter. 66 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 2: So people will go to great lengths to meet this need, 67 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 2: even if it is in self destructive ways. 68 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: This is really interesting because it mattering seems like such 69 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: a simple concept. Like you, it almost feels silly for 70 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: me to ask you to define it, And yet I'm 71 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: hearing you say that we are a culture that is 72 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: totally lacking this basic need. What are some of the 73 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: symptoms of a person or a culture, aside from the 74 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: actions that you just named, where mattering is undervalued or lost. 75 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 2: I think it's at the root of our loneliness epidemic. 76 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 2: Our loneliness epidemic is not a mental health issue necessarily, 77 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 2: it's a social health issue. So the idea that we 78 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 2: don't feel like we matter to other people, that's what 79 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 2: makes us feel lonely. So you could be in a 80 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 2: relationship with someone, you could be in a family, you 81 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 2: could work in a workplace and feel terribly lonely, and 82 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: that is because you do not feel like you matter 83 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 2: there workplaces. It's going on met there's some the statistics 84 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 2: are really alarming. Seventy percent of people report being disengaged 85 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: at work. 86 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: Disengagement seventy percent is a really high number. 87 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 2: Really high number, and it's not only bad for companies, 88 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 2: right loss in productivity. Employees then leave and they go 89 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 2: find other jobs, so they have to replace them. But engagement, 90 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 2: in mattering terms is a protective coping strategy. So if 91 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 2: you are feeling like you don't matter at work, that's 92 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 2: very painful. So the way you cope with it is 93 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 2: you disengage. You say, well, I don't matter to you, 94 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 2: You're not going to matter to me. 95 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: I'm sort of having a light bulb moment because for 96 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: the last few years on social media or like in 97 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 1: digital media like the Cut, we hear all these sort 98 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 1: of colloquialisms or jokes about quiet, quitting or disengaging, and 99 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 1: you're saying, this is at the root of it. That's fascinating. 100 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 2: Mattering researchers describe it as a meta need or an 101 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 2: umbrella term, so a need that is above all other needs, 102 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 2: so it encompasses things like belonging, connection, purpose, but mattering 103 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 2: goes deeper, so you can belong to a classroom, a family, 104 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 2: a workplace, the accounting department, and not feel like you 105 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 2: actually matter to the people there. So we talk so 106 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 2: much as a culture about belonging. Belonging is important, but 107 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 2: it doesn't go far enough. You can belong at the 108 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 2: table and not feel like you matter to the people 109 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 2: at that table. Mattering is really the missing need that 110 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 2: is going on. 111 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 1: Met I see this so often in religious institutions nowadays. 112 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 2: Well, that's part of the reason why we don't feel 113 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 2: like we matter. I mean, religion was not perfect, wasn't 114 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 2: a p to see it for everything, but it did 115 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 2: give us this sense of unconditional worth. All the major 116 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 2: religions have some element of you are worthy because you 117 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 2: are a child of God, when religion does not play 118 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 2: a role in your life. As a culture, especially here 119 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: in the US, we've replaced religion with capitalism. So instead 120 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 2: of saying you are unconditionally worthy, capitalism says you are 121 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 2: worthy when you contribute to the system. And so I 122 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 2: think it's why here as a culture, we do not 123 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 2: prize children, We do not prize the elderly, We do 124 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 2: not prize parents who stay at home, because these are 125 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 2: people who are not contributing to the capitalistic system. Or 126 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: we're sending messages. You can buy your mattering when I 127 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 2: go and I speak with young people on college campuses 128 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 2: and at their schools to talk about mattering, and I 129 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: say to them, the next time you are on your 130 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 2: phone and you're scrolling through Instagram, I want you to 131 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: notice the next time you're feeling like you're not enough, 132 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 2: You're not pretty enough, you're not fit enough, you're not 133 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 2: social enough. I want you to think who is profiting 134 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 2: off of making you feel like you're not enough? Because 135 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 2: there's someone there and it's this big revelation for them, 136 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 2: this idea. People are manipulating me into thinking I'm not enough, 137 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 2: that I don't matter for who I am inside, so 138 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 2: they could sell me a product, so I'll go and 139 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 2: buy their makeup, so I'll go and wear their clothes. 140 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 2: So what I'm trying to do with matter to me, 141 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 2: mattering is a way of reinforcing this idea that all 142 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 2: of us have unconditional worth. 143 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: I think that's so beautiful, and I really agree. I 144 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: always feel like everybody has something really special about them 145 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: and something that is their purpose. So I love how 146 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: you're wording it. Do you remember the first time you 147 00:08:57,800 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 1: felt like you mattered. 148 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 2: So I will say I was lucky to grow up 149 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 2: in a family and an extended family that made me 150 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 2: feel like I mattered. I think the first time I 151 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 2: felt like I mattered, though, really like in an adult sense, 152 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 2: was when I was in college and I was home 153 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 2: for a January break. It was like a long month 154 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 2: long break, and my grandmother was going through chemo. She 155 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 2: had stage four cancer, and my mother was working, and 156 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 2: so my mother said, would you drive your grandmother to 157 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:33,079 Speaker 2: and from the chemo appointments? And at the time, I thought, Oh, 158 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 2: this is just you know, logistics that I'm just here 159 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 2: to get her there she couldn't drive, But I really 160 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: was like, wow, she's really dependent on me, Like I 161 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 2: am really contributing to her life. And so that was 162 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:51,079 Speaker 2: the first time where I felt this sort of adult 163 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 2: sense of mattering that people were relying on me. That's 164 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 2: one of the important ingredients to mattering is feeling relied 165 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 2: and depended on. 166 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: Do you feel like the rise of technology and potentially 167 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: AI in our future really hurts humans mattering because what 168 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: I'm hearing from you is that a lot of it 169 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: is like feeling useful. 170 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 2: Yes, So that's exactly right, And to be in community 171 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 2: with people. So I do think social media can play 172 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 2: a role if you are living in a rural area 173 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 2: and you don't have people around you who you feel 174 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 2: like can identify with you and build community with you. 175 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 2: I think so many people find solace in online communities 176 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 2: and where they feel a sense of being known and 177 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 2: seen for who they are. So I don't think tech 178 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 2: and social media are all bad. What I think tech 179 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 2: has done, though, is you know, in Silicon Valley they 180 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 2: talk a lot about creating a frictionless experience. So a 181 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 2: frictionless experience is with the click of a button, you 182 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 2: can order your Amazon package and have it delivered to 183 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 2: your door. The click of a button, you can order 184 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 2: your Uber Eats and have it delivered to your door, 185 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 2: and you don't have to interact with people ever. And 186 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 2: what it has done is I think it has recalibrated 187 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 2: our expectations in life. That we expect life to be frictionless, 188 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 2: that we expect our relationships to be frictionless, but life 189 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 2: doesn't work like that, and deep nourishing relationships are not frictionless. 190 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 2: Humans are friction creators. And what happens is when you 191 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 2: when you have this unrealistic expectation that relationships should always 192 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 2: be easy. I think you isolate yourself. We all as humans, 193 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 2: we create this social proof that we matter, and we 194 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 2: can only get that social proof from other people. So 195 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 2: I do think to the extent that that tech makes 196 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 2: us think life should be frictionless and isolates us. That 197 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 2: is how our mattering erodes. 198 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: One of the things I love about your book, Jennifer, 199 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: the stories from the individual people. And I know you're 200 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: a journalist, so you are quite literally a master and 201 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,079 Speaker 1: a pro at collecting stories. But I am really curious 202 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: what your research process was like. How did you find 203 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: all these people? 204 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 2: It is a long and exhaustive research process. So for 205 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 2: this book, I conducted an international survey of thousands of 206 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 2: people and collected stories, collected moments when they felt like 207 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 2: they didn't matter, moments when they felt like they did. 208 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 2: And then what I started doing was calling researchers who 209 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 2: have been studying mattering since the eighties and getting ingredients 210 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 2: and then trying to find so for example, the start 211 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 2: of one chapter are firefighters, because I was thinking to myself, 212 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 2: who are the people who have the most purposeful jobs? Right, 213 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 2: It's got to be first responders, firefighters, they literally risk 214 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 2: their lives to save other people. And then I started 215 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 2: researching about firefighters and saw that they were burning out, 216 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 2: that they were leaving. Retention was becoming an issue. They 217 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 2: were dying by suicide more than they were on the job. 218 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 2: And so then I started, as I did with my 219 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 2: first book, going in search of who are the people 220 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 2: who are trying to solve for this? And I found 221 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 2: I through maybe twenty phone calls, I found a fire 222 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 2: department in North Charleston, South Carolina, with a firefighter who 223 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 2: was doing something about the disengagement that's being seen nationally. 224 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 2: So I don't know if you know this, but firefighters 225 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 2: are often the first to arrive at the scene of 226 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 2: a medical emergency or a car accident, so that they 227 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 2: don't just fight fires. And then after they they stabilize 228 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 2: the person or pull them out of a burning car, 229 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 2: ems takes over and brings the person to the hospital. 230 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 2: The firefighters never find out what happened next. Did their 231 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 2: actions make a difference. So time after time, doing these 232 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 2: heroic efforts and never knowing if it made an impact 233 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 2: was causing them to feel disengaged. They didn't know if 234 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 2: they mattered, And so this fire chief created a system 235 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 2: to change that. He tracked the outcomes of rescues so 236 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 2: firefighters could know when their actions had saved a life 237 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 2: or ease someone's suffering because he knew that doing meaningful 238 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 2: and purposeful work wasn't enough. You need to know your 239 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: work makes a difference. You need to know you matter. 240 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 2: And that example, while most of us, most of my 241 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 2: readers are not going to be first responders or firefighters, 242 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 2: we can learn from that story. We can learn that 243 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 2: if you are a caregiver doing deeply purposeful work raising 244 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 2: your children or caring for an elderly f member, but 245 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 2: you feel disconnected from your impact, if you don't know 246 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 2: that you are making a difference, you can burn out. 247 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 2: And so there are ways we can The way I 248 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 2: put it in the book is connect to our own impact. 249 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 2: So we don't even need to rely on a boss 250 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 2: to create a system. We can create these systems for ourselves. 251 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 2: One woman I interviewed who works as a consultant, has 252 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 2: an impact file on her Google Docs where she saves 253 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 2: thank you notes, thank you texts. When her work goes 254 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 2: in the newspaper, she will cut it out and frame 255 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 2: it like a kind of trophy wall. So she is 256 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 2: mindful about her impact, and so whenever she is feeling 257 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 2: burnt out or feeling like my efforts aren't making a difference, 258 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 2: she goes back to that impact file. We can all 259 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 2: do that in our lives. We can all create these 260 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 2: simple impact files. And I've started doing it. Someone sent 261 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: me flowers and wrote the most beautiful note. That's part 262 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 2: of my impact file. My children on Mother's Day write 263 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 2: me these beautiful cards. Those are in my impact files. 264 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 2: So whenever I am feeling like what I am doing 265 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 2: is not enough, I connect with my impact. And we 266 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 2: can do that. And we can do that for each other. 267 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 2: I mean that's the other thing, right, We can do 268 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 2: it for ourselves, but we can also do it for 269 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 2: each other. A simple text saying if it wasn't for you, 270 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have had the courage to go out for 271 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 2: that big job. Thank you for believing in me when 272 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 2: I couldn't even believe in myself. Right, we can close 273 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 2: the loops. Somebody gives you a great piece of advice, 274 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 2: we can circle back and say I took that advice 275 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 2: and guess what, it worked. Thank you so much. We 276 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 2: just we are going through life because we have so 277 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 2: many demands on our time. We are enduring so much 278 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 2: input and so much output demanded of us that many 279 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 2: of us are going through life on a kind of autopilot, 280 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 2: and that can really disconnect us from the impact that 281 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 2: we have on the world around us. So what mattering 282 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 2: does when you really start to understand mattering is it 283 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 2: forces you to be more awake in how you go 284 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 2: through life, to be more mindful. It's really a wonderful 285 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 2: way to go through life to look for mattering and 286 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 2: to unlock the mattering and the people around you. We 287 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 2: all have this human need that must be met and 288 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 2: it is going under met. Yes, So if you can 289 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 2: be the person do that to you know, I've started 290 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 2: this challenge for myself and this is sort of I 291 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 2: wouldn't even call it my New Year's resolution, it's kind 292 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 2: of my life resolution. Is to imagine everyone I meet, 293 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 2: my family, strangers I meet on the street, my colleagues 294 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 2: wearing a sign around their necks saying tell me do 295 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 2: I matter? We can answer that with eye contact, smiling, 296 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 2: providing warmth, telling people why they make a difference. 297 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: The question you just shared is very similar to a 298 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: big question you ask these people that you interview in 299 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: the book, which is do you feel like you matter? 300 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: What was one of the most surprising answers you received. 301 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 2: I mean, what was surprised me was overwhelmingly how many 302 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 2: people felt like they didn't matter anymore. It's so sad. 303 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 2: And what I realized is many of those people were 304 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:23,360 Speaker 2: going through painful life transitions. So if they were parents 305 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 2: now facing an empty nest, or people relocating or changing jobs, 306 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 2: or getting fired or breaking up with somebody that they loved, 307 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 2: or grieving the death of a loved one, these are 308 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 2: all moments. These transitions can shake our sense of mattering 309 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 2: to its core. What I wish I had known when 310 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 2: I was in my twenties and thirties was how life 311 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 2: transitions can rattle you. We tend to really personalize the 312 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 2: experiences that we have in our life. So I'm thinking 313 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 2: about when I was in my twenties in college and 314 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 2: moving to New York and leaving behind my very close friendships, 315 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 2: leaving behind a campus where I really felt like I 316 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,199 Speaker 2: mattered to come to New York, which I loved, but 317 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 2: at the time, really my sense of mattering. I was 318 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 2: new to my job. I certainly wasn't adding value because 319 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 2: I was barely figuring out how to do my work. 320 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 2: I didn't know my neighbors, they didn't really want to 321 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 2: know me, and I felt really lonely. And I used 322 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 2: to personalize it. I used to think something must be 323 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 2: wrong with me. And what I wish I had known 324 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 2: was that it's not personal that transitions. This is what 325 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 2: they do. They disrupt your sense of mattering and they 326 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 2: forced you to find a new way to matter again. 327 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 2: I'll tell you one of the things that I did 328 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 2: which was really helpful to me, and what the research 329 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 2: bears out, is that when you are going through a 330 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:56,360 Speaker 2: painful life transition, the first step is to realize that 331 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 2: you are not alone. That others have gone through the 332 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 2: these painful life transitions and come out the other side. 333 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 2: So if you are going through one of these, you 334 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 2: can what I did in my twenties, and I didn't 335 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 2: know I was doing this. I would go every Saturday 336 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 2: morning to the Barnes and Noble near my house and 337 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 2: I would spend three hours reading nonfiction books, reading magazines. 338 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 2: I almost treated it like a library, which is not 339 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 2: very nice. 340 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: But I actually did the very same thing when I 341 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: moved to La Right. 342 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 2: Like, it's not great, but I would sit there and 343 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 2: I would just read other people's stories. Read how so 344 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 2: I would look for role models. And research finds that 345 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 2: role models when you are going through a hard transition, 346 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 2: that is a great way of figuring out one that 347 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 2: you're not alone, and two other how other people strategically 348 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 2: have come out the other side. The other thing you 349 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 2: can do is to harness the power of invitation. So 350 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:56,640 Speaker 2: there was a woman that I interviewed in my book 351 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: who was going through a painful divorce, and she was 352 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 2: talking about how her couple friends stop inviting her to 353 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 2: dinner because she was like a fifth wheel. And so 354 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 2: she was saying this to her therapist, and her therapist said, well, 355 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 2: then you start hosting dinner parties and inviting them. So, 356 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 2: if you are going through a transition, if your sense 357 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 2: of mattering has taken a hit, harness the power of invitation, 358 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 2: either issuing an invitation or making a point to accept 359 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 2: invitations even when your life does not feel like it's 360 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 2: in order. There's research that I love called the Beautiful 361 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 2: mess Effect. It shows that we tend to have this 362 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 2: false belief that we need to get our lives in 363 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 2: order and kind of look perfect from the outside. To 364 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 2: be worthy of support, to be worthy of inviting people 365 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,400 Speaker 2: into our lives. But it's actually the messiness of our 366 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 2: lives that signal warmth and authenticity, and it's what brings 367 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 2: people closer to us. In my mind, when I think 368 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 2: about the beautiful mess effect, I think about if you've 369 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 2: ever tried to put a sticky, like a little light 370 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 2: sticker on a lacquered surface. It will stick, but it 371 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 2: will slide off because there's nothing to grip. So if 372 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 2: you think about your life and if you are presenting 373 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 2: yourself as perfect, there's nothing for people to hold on too. 374 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 2: There's nothing sticky there. So it's actually in the grinniness 375 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 2: of our lives. It's the messiness of our lives. Not saying, 376 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 2: reveal all your mess but pockets of your messiness. Invite 377 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 2: people in, invite them in to be a support for you, 378 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 2: to help you through it. 379 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,360 Speaker 1: Before we go to break, I want to ask what 380 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: you've bookmarked this week? It can be a fun quote, 381 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,679 Speaker 1: something you've sent a girlfriend, a book that is on 382 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: your TVR list. What have you bookmarked this week? 383 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 2: Jennifer So, I have a few books on my to 384 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 2: be read list, but one of them is Andrew Ross 385 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 2: Sorkins nineteen twenty nine, which is a on fiction book 386 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 2: talking about the crash of nineteen twenty nine. And I 387 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 2: will tell you it is a great read. 388 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: I'm excited about that. I actually put that on my 389 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: TVR list too for the holiday season. It's good, Okay. 390 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 1: I want to get into how we can matter not 391 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 1: just to ourselves, but how we feel like we matter 392 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: in the world and matter to other people. Can we 393 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,400 Speaker 1: kind of go section BI section how do we create 394 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: a house and a family where we feel like we matter? 395 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 2: Yeah? So I would say as a parent, or even 396 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 2: if you don't have children, it's having people in your life, 397 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 2: in your immediate circle that prioritize you and you prioritize them. 398 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 2: Mattering is the sense, particularly in close relationships, that you 399 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 2: matter more than that You matter more than my phone, 400 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,719 Speaker 2: you matter more than my work email. You matter. So 401 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 2: you don't have to prioritize them every minute of every day. 402 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 2: But it is noticing and tuning into them and noticing 403 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 2: when they need that mattering feeling, tuning in and delivering 404 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 2: it wonderful. 405 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: And that goes. That's across the board, whether that's at 406 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 1: home or you're saying that is for home and then 407 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: work is something separate, I. 408 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 2: Would say one of the things as a parent, what 409 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 2: I've come to realize in researching on mattering is that 410 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 2: parents play a very important role in sending our children 411 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 2: the message that they matter no matter what. So, sending 412 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 2: the signal to our kids that they are not their successes, 413 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 2: they are not their failures, that they're mattering is fully 414 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 2: there no matter what. So a mother that I interviewed 415 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 2: for the book, when her children would maybe get rejected 416 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 2: by a friend, or wouldn't make the a team, or 417 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 2: would bomb a test, and would feel like they didn't matter, 418 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 2: that their worth was somehow less because they didn't perform, 419 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 2: she would reach into her wallet and she would grab 420 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 2: a bill. She would say to our kids, do you 421 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 2: want this money? How much is it worth? And they 422 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 2: would say it's worth twenty dollars. Yes, I'd love it, 423 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 2: and she'd say, okay, hang on a minute. She would 424 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 2: wrinkle it up, she would dunk it in a glass 425 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 2: of water, dirty it with her shoe, and then she 426 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 2: would hold up a soggy, dirty, wrinkled bill and she 427 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 2: would say, how much is it worth? Now? Do you 428 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 2: still want this money? Like this bill? Your worth doesn't 429 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 2: change whether you've been knocked down, rejected, whether you feel 430 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 2: crumpled up or soggy inside. Your worth is your worth, 431 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 2: no matter what. I love that anecdote, right, that is 432 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 2: a message that we could give to our friends, to 433 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 2: our spouses, to our children. You are worthy no matter what. 434 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 1: Jennifer, I'm taking that one with me. That's so good. 435 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 1: One of my favorite chapters in your book was about cornermen, 436 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 1: and actually I was going to explain them, but why 437 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: don't Can you explain what a cornerman is? 438 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 2: Sure, so, a cornerman, I'm not a big boxing fan, 439 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 2: but a cornerman is the person in the corner that 440 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 2: supports a boxer through their training, through the tournament, through 441 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 2: the match. They are able to see blind spots, they 442 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 2: are able to deliver tough love. They are there in 443 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,640 Speaker 2: the corner experiencing that fight right along with the boxer. 444 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 2: And so what I write about is how important it 445 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,679 Speaker 2: is not just to invite cornermen into our life, to 446 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 2: invest in us, but to be a corner man for 447 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 2: other people. That's something that you know we are wired 448 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 2: to want to invest, to want to create these really 449 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 2: strong relationships with other people. But sometimes things like envy 450 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 2: or competition can get in the way of being a 451 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 2: corner If you are someone who may be experiencing a 452 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 2: lot of envy, you don't have to judge yourself for 453 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 2: being envious. You don't have to judge yourself. We all 454 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 2: evolve to feel envy for healthy, adaptive reasons. You don't 455 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,639 Speaker 2: have to judge yourself, but you have to hold yourself 456 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 2: accountable for how you act on that envy. So when 457 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 2: those feelings happen, you can either take the malicious envy route, 458 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 2: which is cutting somebody down or gossiping about someone being 459 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 2: a mean girl so you feel better by comparison, or 460 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 2: you can take the benign, healthy route, which is looking 461 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 2: at them as a source of inspiration. You could go 462 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 2: even a step further and be a cornerman. Look at them, 463 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 2: say to them, I am so impressed with what you 464 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,199 Speaker 2: have done. I would love to help you take it 465 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 2: even further. That is an idea that is often beaten 466 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 2: out of us in our zero sum culture, but that's 467 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 2: not how we are wired. We are wired to support 468 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 2: one another. We are wired to want to be there 469 00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 2: to hold each other up. So I am here to 470 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 2: say say to you be countercultural. Don't listen to a 471 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 2: society that tells you it's a zero sum game that 472 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 2: somebody else's win is your loss. It is not true. 473 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 2: There is enough joy, there is enough accomplishment and success 474 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 2: to go around. 475 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 1: So I've found, and this is a personal thing, but 476 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: my only issue ever in friendship since I was young 477 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: was envy. And I've felt that you really can't be 478 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: friends with someone that has any sort of envy for you, 479 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: or your life or anything. I always hear Oprah talk 480 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: about this you too, you know, like, what is the 481 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: difference between that sort of envy and not wanting a 482 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: corner man who has that versus somebody who's more benign. 483 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 2: So what I will say is that if there are 484 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 2: people in your life who are really struggling with the 485 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 2: malicious kind of envy, who maybe don't want the best 486 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 2: for you, I think the way to think about them 487 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 2: is with compassion. All humans want to do well, All 488 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 2: humans want to be good people. We are wired to 489 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 2: want to be good people. So if you have someone 490 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 2: in your life who is really struggling with envy, have 491 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 2: compassion for them, Realize that they don't have the tools 492 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 2: to cope with their envy. And healthy ways. You don't 493 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 2: need to let them close into your life. You can 494 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 2: have them at a distance. I think it would be 495 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 2: very hard to be friends with someone who you thought 496 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 2: didn't want the best for you, So I don't think 497 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,719 Speaker 2: you need to necessarily cut them out of your life, 498 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 2: but they cannot be a corner man. A cornerman is 499 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 2: somebody who believes in you and wants everything for you. 500 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 2: We know what investment does to us. We know how 501 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 2: it fills us up and helps us reach for higher goals. 502 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 2: It makes us feel good. But actually investing in other 503 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: people allows for what researchers call ego extension, meaning that 504 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 2: your ego as a person. If you're cornerman, your ego 505 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 2: extends to include the successes of the people you support. 506 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. 507 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 2: I tell my kids this all the time. Literally, ninety 508 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 2: percent of the joy in my life is the joy 509 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 2: I get from my friends and their successes and their joys. 510 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 2: This is an untapped joy fountain that is just waiting 511 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 2: for you. What a thrill to be able to enjoy 512 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 2: the joy and the success of your friends. It just 513 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 2: makes your life better. 514 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: I totally agree, And if you're comfortable, I do want 515 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: to name one of your corner men, because I think 516 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: it's so fun your besties with Aa Garten, who you've 517 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: called her one of the fairy godmothers of your newest book, 518 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: and a quote from her is actually on the front cover. 519 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: I need to ask you what the best meal is 520 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: that you've ever shared with her? 521 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 2: She's amazing. I will tell you that I am not 522 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 2: as lucky as Jeffrey, but she will often call me 523 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 2: over because she's testing recipes, and I know, isn't that amazing? 524 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 2: So it's amazing, and I will try her. I mean 525 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 2: even her. She's such a really a scientist. I mean 526 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 2: she can taste things that I can't. I mean everything 527 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 2: she makes is delicious. Wo for her skillet chicken is amazing. 528 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 2: It is so good. So that is sort of a 529 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 2: comfort food for me. But she everything she makes is delicious. 530 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 2: There's nothing I've ever had that Aina has made that 531 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 2: hasn't been amazing. 532 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: Has she given you advice? Have you given her advice? 533 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 2: Oh? My gosh, she gives me so much great advice. 534 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,239 Speaker 2: It's funny because one of the pieces of advice she 535 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 2: gave me was a piece of advice she got from 536 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 2: Liza Minelli, which is the title of her memoir, which 537 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 2: is to be ready when the luck happens. That success 538 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 2: is about hard work, it's also about luck. A lot 539 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 2: of it is out of your control. But to say 540 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 2: yourself up so that you are ready when your idea, 541 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 2: when your business, whatever it is, hits, be ready for 542 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 2: the luck to happen. 543 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: Love that. There's another chapter of your book that specifically 544 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: focuses on mattering at work, which we've touched on a 545 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: little bit. I'm really curious what the research says. How 546 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: can bosses and managers and team leaders bring a sense 547 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: of mattering to the workplace. 548 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 2: Yes, and it's so important that they do. I mean, 549 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 2: when you think about we spend a third of our 550 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 2: lives in the workplace. If we don't feel like we 551 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 2: matter at work, it makes it so much harder to 552 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 2: feel like we matter overall. So I have this framework 553 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 2: that I've developed called Said. It's the Said framework Said, 554 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 2: which stands for the four major ingredients of mattering, significance, appreciation, invested, in, 555 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 2: depended on. So all of those elements are how you 556 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 2: make your colleagues feel like they matter significant. It's not 557 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 2: about throwing them a party. It's in the moments. It 558 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 2: is remembering small details about them, if their mother is 559 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 2: having surgery, marking it in your calendar and going back 560 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 2: to it a week later and saying, how did your 561 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 2: mom do with the surgery. So significance is the idea 562 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 2: that I play a significant role in your mind, that 563 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 2: I am prioritized in your mind, just these little moments appreciated. 564 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 2: Is the difference between saying to a colleague, who is 565 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 2: who is you know, always great at organizing happy hours? 566 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 2: You might say one way of appreciating your colleague would 567 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 2: be to say thank you for always, you know, hosting 568 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 2: these these cocktail hours. They're so fun. But that's not 569 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 2: a way to feed the sense of mattering. A better 570 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 2: way to feed that is to say to your colleague, 571 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 2: thank you for being the kind of colleague who knows 572 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 2: what it takes to build community. It's because of you 573 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 2: that we are so close as a department. Something so specific, 574 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 2: specific about the doer. So don't just thank someone for 575 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 2: the deed for organizing, thank them for being the doer, 576 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 2: the person who gets people together, who builds community. So 577 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 2: nice invested and we talked about it's letting people know 578 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 2: that their goals matter to you. It is providing feedback 579 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 2: in a way that makes people believe you are invested 580 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 2: in them, even your negative feedback, positioning it as I 581 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 2: believe in you. I know you can do this, trusting 582 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,760 Speaker 2: them to deliver. And then the last thing is depending 583 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 2: on them, relying on them, the idea that the office 584 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:41,320 Speaker 2: wouldn't be the same without them. So many people feel invisible, interchangeable. 585 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 2: Now AI is coming on the scene. Is that going 586 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 2: to make us replaceable? Let people know that you depend 587 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 2: on them, you rely on them, and that you appreciate 588 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 2: that you can depend on them, that they always come 589 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 2: through for you. 590 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: One of the phrases that I'm really going to take 591 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: with me from your book is mattering our and it 592 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: combines a few things. One is showing up physically to 593 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: a third space. I think about showing up all the time. 594 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: I think we're in a lack in our culture and 595 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 1: I'm not sure why. Maybe it is mattering and you 596 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: could probably shed some light on that. But the way 597 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: you define a mattering architect also touches on how we 598 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: show up, and it's about building out and protecting emotional space. 599 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: How can we signal to other people that we're wanting 600 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 1: to have these deep connections and deeper conversations. 601 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 2: So that is such a great question. And what I 602 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 2: have found is it takes real intentionality that you don't 603 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 2: necessarily come out to someone and say I want to 604 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 2: go deeper with you, right, Instead, you create the conditions 605 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 2: where that deepness can take hold. So a book group, right, 606 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,240 Speaker 2: that is a place where people gather regularly. You prioritize 607 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 2: each other to show up. So it's requiring showing up, 608 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:04,720 Speaker 2: being and then creating the conditions for those conversations to unwind. 609 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 2: I belong to a group where once a month we 610 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 2: read an article like some in depth article, and we 611 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 2: sit in each other's kitchens over lunch and we talk 612 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 2: about the article. But then it inevitably spills out into life, 613 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 2: what it is to be in the messy middle, what 614 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 2: it's like to juggle workplace demands with raising children. And 615 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:29,240 Speaker 2: so it's creating the scaffolding for those relationships to unfold. 616 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 2: So it takes intention, deliberate time carving it out in 617 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 2: your calendar to let someone know they matter to you. 618 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 2: You are carving out the time that says you are 619 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 2: a priority to me. 620 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: So beautiful, I love that you do that. What a 621 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 1: fun idea. Who picks the article? 622 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 2: It wasn't. My idea was. And what was so interesting 623 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 2: about this is that it's friends of friends, so it's 624 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 2: not even like a group of close friends. And whoever's 625 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 2: hosting picks the article. And then we sit and I 626 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 2: don't cook, so I order in, but some people cook 627 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,240 Speaker 2: a delicious meal. And there's something so intimate about sitting 628 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,720 Speaker 2: in each other's kitchens. Yeah, there's something really old fashioned 629 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:10,720 Speaker 2: and fabulous about it. And the food and the article 630 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 2: create that kind of scaffolding. 631 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: I love the ritual of it. It's very cool. We're 632 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: coming to the end of the interview, and I want 633 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 1: to actually start with the opening of your book because 634 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: there's a quote that hit me so hard. It's so beautiful. 635 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: It's a Mary Oliver quote and she writes, I don't 636 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: want to end up having simply visited this world. How 637 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: does that quote connect to mattering? 638 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,760 Speaker 2: So what I've come to believe is as a human 639 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 2: being on this earth, we have a responsibility to matter, 640 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 2: to matter to the people around us, to add positive value. 641 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,879 Speaker 2: And so that quote, to me is a reminder that 642 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 2: we are not bystanders, We are not people just going 643 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 2: through the motions we have a social response cibility to 644 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:05,359 Speaker 2: matter here and so that to me, I mean some 645 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 2: people say they just want to be happy. I want 646 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 2: more than just to be happy. I want to know 647 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 2: that what I do is making a difference. I want 648 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 2: to know that the people around me feel valued. I 649 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 2: want to surround myself with people who make me feel 650 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,399 Speaker 2: like I matter. And so to me, that mattering has 651 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 2: become the north star. And I think people are often 652 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:30,400 Speaker 2: searching for happiness, searching for happiness in their New Year's resolutions. 653 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,959 Speaker 2: If only I lost the ten pounds, or if only 654 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 2: I did this, And I want you to if you 655 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 2: are in that moment, I want you to think that 656 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 2: is you already matter. You already matter, And even if 657 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 2: you feel like you don't matter, you are one action 658 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 2: and one decision away from mattering again. And that is 659 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,439 Speaker 2: sending a text to someone telling them if it wasn't 660 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 2: for them. It's walking out your front door and thanking 661 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 2: the person at the pharmacy who always greet you with 662 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 2: a smile and provides such warmth and telling them my 663 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 2: days have been hard, but I will tell you you 664 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 2: are such a positive light in this world. We have 665 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 2: a responsibility to matter, to the world, to our legacy, 666 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 2: to future generations, to this earth. We have a responsibility 667 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 2: to matter, and we have agency we can matter in 668 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:24,760 Speaker 2: this world. 669 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to do something called speed read, which 670 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 1: is I'm going to put sixty seconds on the clock 671 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 1: and see how many rapid fire literary questions we can 672 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: get through. Are you ready? 673 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 2: Let's do it? 674 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: Okay? 675 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 2: Three? 676 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 1: Two one? What is a self help book trope that 677 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 1: you would ban forever? 678 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 2: Self optimization, self optimizing your time? Who you are? I'm 679 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:50,920 Speaker 2: so tired of the self help books. We need to 680 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 2: be in relationship with each other. That's how we matter. 681 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: So agree, Which one would you defend with your life? 682 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:02,359 Speaker 2: Any book that encourages relatelationships and deeper connection to help 683 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,760 Speaker 2: protect our social health, which we don't talk enough about. 684 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: What's a book that you wish you had written? 685 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,800 Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh, so many books. Actually. Choosing Civility is 686 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 2: a book I wish i'd written. It's a tiny, tiny 687 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,800 Speaker 2: book by a professor PM I don't know how to 688 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 2: say his last name, Fiorni, and just little rules of 689 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 2: civility in everyday life. 690 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,959 Speaker 1: What's a book that you wish you could read again 691 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 1: for the first time? 692 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,799 Speaker 2: Crime and Punishment. That was the book that made me 693 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 2: understand what psychology was and made me want to write 694 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:36,360 Speaker 2: about what I write about today. 695 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:38,799 Speaker 1: I'm putting that on my TBR list. 696 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 2: Thank you. 697 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: Who is your Desert Island author? Who are you reading 698 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: for the rest of your life? 699 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 2: Maybe my very good friend Chris Pavoni, who writes really engaging, 700 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 2: really smart thrillers. 701 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,800 Speaker 1: You walk into a bookstore and you have ten minutes. 702 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: Where are you headed? First? 703 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 2: General nonfiction new release? 704 00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:59,800 Speaker 1: What's a book that you gift most often? 705 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 2: Oh? I give so many different books, recently The Good Life, 706 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,280 Speaker 2: which is about a study done at Harvard the longest 707 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 2: study ever conducted of human beings, The Good Life. 708 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:11,959 Speaker 1: And lastly, what would your memoir be called? 709 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:18,080 Speaker 2: Too Much? The part two from never Enough to too Much? 710 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,399 Speaker 1: I know, no, Jennifer, you matter, You're not too much? 711 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 2: Okay? Clattering? It would be about mattering. 712 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:31,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much. I'm going to be thinking 713 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 1: about what you shared today for a really long time. 714 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:35,880 Speaker 1: I so appreciate it. 715 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 2: Thank you for this great conversation. 716 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,839 Speaker 1: If you want a little bit more from us, come 717 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 1: hang with us on socials. We're at Reese's Book Club 718 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,520 Speaker 1: on Instagram, serving up books, Vibes and behind the scenes 719 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 1: magic and I'm Danielle Robe, ro b a y come 720 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:56,680 Speaker 1: say hi and DM me and if you want to 721 00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,319 Speaker 1: go nineties on us, you can call us. Okay, so 722 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,839 Speaker 1: our phone line is open, So call us now at 723 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 1: five zero one two nine one three three seven nine. 724 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:09,400 Speaker 1: That's five zero one two nine one three three seven nine. 725 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 1: Share your literary hot takes, your book recommendations, ooh, please 726 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,400 Speaker 1: share those and questions about the monthly pick, or just 727 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,400 Speaker 1: let us know what you think about the episode you 728 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,360 Speaker 1: just heard. And who knows, you might just hear yourself 729 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,960 Speaker 1: in our next episode, So don't be shy. Give us 730 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,239 Speaker 1: a ring, and of course, make sure to follow Bookmarked 731 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 1: by Reese's book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 732 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your shows. Until then, see you 733 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: in the next chapter. Bookmarked is a production of Hello, 734 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 1: Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts. It's executive produced by Reese Witherspoon 735 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: and me Danielle Robe. Production is by Acast Creative Studios. 736 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,800 Speaker 1: Our producers are Matty Foley, Brittany Martinez, and Sarah Schleid. 737 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 1: Our production assistant is Avery Loftis, Jenny Kaplan and Emily 738 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: Rudder are the executive producers for a Cast Creative Studios. 739 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,719 Speaker 1: Maureene Polo and Reese Witherspoon are the executive producers for 740 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine. Olga Kaminwa, Sarah Kernerman, Kristin Parla, and Ashley 741 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,400 Speaker 1: Rappaport are associate producers for Reese's Book Club. Ali Perry 742 00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 1: and Lauren Hanson are the executive producers for iHeart Podcasts.