WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 70 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:06.359 you know this is a completion episode. So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.560 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.440 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.960 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:17.880 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.119 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:28.320 can make your own decisions. Hi. Everyone, it's just me today, 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:31.840 James again, and I'm talking today with my friend Billy 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:34.199 Billy Ford. Billy is a program off SIR for the 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:36.960 Burma team at the United States Institute of Peace. And 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:40.560 do you want to say hello Billy James. Hi, thanks 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.720 for tuning it. Yeah, thanks for joining us without a 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:47.919 decent introduction. If I summed up right, what you do 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:50.160 get I want to get that wrong. So people will 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:53.479 have heard Billy before and heard from Billy when we 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:56.640 finished our last series on them, where we spoke about 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:59.680 the funding that the pdfc using and how they're using 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:03.560 a lot of unique and really innovative methods to continue 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:06.320 to support their revolution when they're not getting very much 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:08.559 at all in the way of international support, and certainly 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:12.920 nothing compared to countries like Ukraine. But what we wanted 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:15.440 to talk a little bit about today was the s 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:18.720 A C or the Hunter's attempts at kind of staging 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:21.959 a sham election, which they've sort of backed off on. 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:24.720 Can you explain a little bit about what they had 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:30.520 proposed and then what they maybe what they're doing now, right, yeah, UM. 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:35.720 So the expectation was upon UM instigating the coupe February 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:42.280 f that UM the state of emergency would end on 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:47.319 UM February first, which was two days ago, UM, giving 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:52.040 them six months after that, uh, that period to kind 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:56.600 of undertake an election. And so the expectation was that 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.880 before August one, there would be this sort of shame 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:06.080 UM electoral process UM, and the the Hunter would essentially 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:09.400 structure of the process in such way that they they're there, 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:14.119 their political party, the U s DP, would prevail UM, 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:19.280 and that the Commander in Chief men online who runs 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:23.400 the HUNTA would ascend as he had dreamed to become 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:25.320 the president of the country and kind of rule in 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:29.280 a military dictatorship model, but under kind of these auspices 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:33.840 of civilian governance. So that was the expectation. But things 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:37.280 have changed, as you kind of alluded to. Yeah, so 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:39.919 they've they've said they got to extend for another six months. 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:42.560 Who's that right, that's right. UM, So they said they 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:45.960 would extend for another six months until August first. UM. 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:50.160 But then this morning they also announced a new political, Economic, 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:56.040 and Social objectives which includes a five point road map UM, which, 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:57.720 for those of you who have been following m R 0:02:57.800 --> 0:02:59.840 for some time, is often the way that they frame 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:06.440 there UM kind of sham and circuitous approaches to civilian governance. UM. 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:11.760 But UM that articulates a series of reforms, restoring law 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:16.720 and order, you know, social development, implementing a peace process, 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:22.160 and then holding elections UM. And this is I think 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:26.440 indicates to most people that elections are very unlikely to 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:30.359 occur any time in the near future. UM. They did 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.840 something almost identical in two thousand and four articulating a 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:39.600 roadmap to democracy, and that didn't really start until two 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:43.640 thousand and ten, UM, where when there were elections and 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:46.920 there weren't really meaningful ones until UM. This is kind 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:49.480 of an indication to I think a lot of folks 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:55.000 that UM, elections are unlikely this year and that there's 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:58.480 kind of a long road ahead. UH. The interesting element 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:01.800 of this will be to see how the the hunter's 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:07.080 kind of enablers in the international community, including Thailand, China, 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.400 and India in particular, how they will respond, in part 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:15.200 because they were pushing the SAC very hard to undertake 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:18.880 these elections as a potential off ramp to the horrifying 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:23.280 violence that is UM that resulted from the coup and um, 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:25.880 you know, all the atrocities that the SEC has committed. 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:28.200 Maybe we could talk a little bit about the the 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:32.040 international support they have, because it's still quite significant and 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:36.440 like especially in terms of propping up their military force 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:39.760 through the use of air power they can and they 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:44.160 don't have domestic like fighter yet manufacturing, right, So can 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:45.680 you talk a little bit about that, Like I think 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:49.239 they received a couple more planes very recently, right, Yeah, 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:54.120 from um the Chinese. UM. Yeah. There. It's kind of 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:58.280 an interesting dynamic whereby you have a an entire country 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.840 of fifty three ish million p bowl UM fighting against 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:05.480 a tiny military institution of about five thousand or fewer 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:08.479 UM if you include their families and all the medics, UM, 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:12.080 and that tiny institution is being supported by just a 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:17.039 handful of countries UM. As I said, kind of China Russia, UH, 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:19.159 to a certain agree, Indian and Thailand UM and a 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:22.280 few others UM. And the vast majority of the world 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:26.080 is kind of opposes this military takeover and the subsequent 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:30.240 dictatorship and all the her indoc atrocities that they've committed. UM. 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:33.320 And so there's quite a lot of international actors who 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:39.039 are providing kind of UM rhetorical support to the resistance 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:42.880 and some you know, support to civil society and humanitarian 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:47.520 assistance and others. But you know, on balance, the support 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:51.920 that the Chinese, Indians, Russians in particular UM have provided 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:56.040 in terms of material assistance to the s A c UM, 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:59.520 as well as the diplomatic assistance that the Chinese provide 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.159 at the secure the Council in particular, but also the 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:07.080 Ties provide UM with an ascion, is you know for 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:11.000 outweighs the rhetorical and small material assistance at the West 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:14.640 and UM. You know other supporters of the resistance movement 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:18.479 have provided UM. So Yes, to answer your question, the 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:22.120 you know, the Chinese and Indians continue to provide material 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:27.080 military assistance to the s A c UM. And you know, 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:31.240 my question is kind of what is there theory of 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:35.919 change here and how will UM supporting the sac militarily 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:40.920 lead to anything like stabilization. It's just kind of perplexing 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:44.799 to me when both countries are very UM interested in 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:48.719 in in supporting UH a level of functional stability so 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:53.160 they can undertake their economic and geopolitical objectives UM, many 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:55.839 of which go through my Mr UM. I just don't 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:59.280 really understand how they see kind of a military victory Bray, 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.039 the s A c is a pathway to stabilization when 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:05.080 you have an entire nation that has risen up against 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:11.440 UH the dictatorship and has wholly rejected it and demonstrated 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:15.240 that they're willing to make the these incredible sacrifices to 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:20.119 UM to ensure that this coup does not succeed. Yeah, 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:23.160 it is. It's very perplexing because like it's not in 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:27.040 in any sort of conventional sense like a consolidated regime 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:30.080 and no show any chance of being one. Right, Like, 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:33.520 it doesn't even have territorial control of a large sways 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:36.600 of the country that they claims. Yeah, exactly, and you're 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.600 you're even hearing this. I mean, there's been quite a 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:43.400 bit of research, contested research that that shows the HUNTA 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:47.240 has less than fifty control, but even today you are differ. 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:50.400 Yesterday you heard from an online the the Hunter Leader 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:54.680 UM that he's now admitting that they um only have 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:58.360 sixty percent control, which is a pretty sangular analysis of 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:01.080 what they control. Um, it's probably much smaller than that. 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:04.480 But you know, them demonstrating that they do not have 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:09.720 UM control over of the country as a pretty staggering 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:15.200 proposition and kind of indication to their allies that, UM, 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:18.920 you know, they just don't have the capacity to administer 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:23.400 a country that's unwilling to be pacified and um so 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:26.640 and and you know, on top of that, there's very 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:29.360 little I just don't see a pathway in which they 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:34.000 will capture more territory. UM. I mean they have, you know, 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:38.520 constrained resources. Um they have. I think they had twenty 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:41.120 two entrants into the Defense Service Academy last year. I 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:44.320 mean there's when they when there's casualties on the front lines, 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:48.559 you just there's not a lot of replacement happening. UM, 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.319 they're not able to get spare parts for their Russian 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:55.320 made helicopters. You know, there's just major material constraints that 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:57.720 the s a c. S. Military is facing, and it's 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:01.160 just hard to imagine that they will ever regained much 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:07.080 more than you know, what they say is territorial control. Yeah, 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:08.720 it's it's very if Then if we look at the 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:11.680 PDF by comparison, and I got banned from Twitter last 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:16.720 week for posting a picture of them, but it's there. 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:21.480 Their equipment compared to even a year ago, is vastly improved. 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:24.040 Like I don't know if you saw the one group 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:26.960 of guys with it actually international rifle, but I have 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.440 no idea where that came from, but it it's very 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:34.160 impressive that they have one. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of um. Honestly, 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:38.280 the resilience of this movement is partly a testament to 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:42.360 the ingenuity and innovation UM. I mean we saw it 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:45.760 in the beginning in the non violent action, demonstrating or 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:48.320 kind of deploying tactics that we've never seen before that 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:51.760 have you know, been lessons to other international non violent 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:54.800 movements around the world, just really creative fundraising tactics, as 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:57.080 you and I have discussed in the past. But yeah, 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:03.280 now it's the military ingenuity. I mean essentially creating UM 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:10.200 facilities for retrofitting drones for aerial attacks. Um. One of 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:14.160 the military's helicopters was taken down this morning. I haven't 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:17.640 I don't know exactly what weapons were used in that, 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:19.920 but you know, it's just kind of a level of 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:25.240 innovation given that these you know, the PDFs and most 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:29.120 of the eras have have very little access to very 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:33.679 few um kind of international um, you know, arms markets. 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:37.320 So the fact that they're able to sustain themselves at 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.600 all and maintain this, you know, which is probably much 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:43.200 more um of the territory is is kind of an 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:47.560 incredible testament to their innovation ingenuity. Yeah, it's this a 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:50.840 couple obviously of several PDF fighters who I keep in 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:54.240 touch with, and like they they've spoken to me about 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:56.400 like first or three D printed guns, which we've spoken 0:10:56.440 --> 0:11:00.520 about extentively, but also torna CA's night vision goal goals, 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:05.920 even process is like like limbs people who have lost legs, 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:09.120 right to land, minds and things. So like, it's amazing 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:11.280 that they've set up all these things which normally require 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:14.520 like a massive interaction with the state and with an 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.360 international system, and they've done it using in this case, 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:19.480 the Internet and a three hundred dollar printer. They've got 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:23.600 an early Express or something. Yeah, it's incredible, Yeah, it's 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:27.319 it's extremely sort of inspiration on that sense, but also 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:29.760 very sad like I want to talk a little bit 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:33.240 about the s a C seems to have It's not 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:35.440 fair to say they've pivoted to war crimes, because it's 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:37.600 been kind of integral to what they've done from the outset, 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:40.640 but they seem to have given up on trying to 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:45.480 make like targeted strikes against the military formations and just 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:49.280 pivoted to dropping bombs on civilians. Could you talk about 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:51.280 a couple of those, like maybe we could talk about 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:55.880 the Kitchin music cultural festival that they bombed, or well 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:59.000 one of the other examples of that. Yeah, there's definitely 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:03.679 been a ship if from UM a strategy of essentially 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:10.000 augmenting UM or providing air support to UH kind of 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:16.120 exposed frontline light infantry to a tactic of targeted air 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:23.359 strikes against civilian targets and against UM armed organization headquarters 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:29.720 which had UM under previous UM negotiations been deemed like 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.920 off limits, but UM it seems as if there's nothing 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:38.600 off limits now. They bombed UM the Chin National Front's headquarters, 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:42.200 which is right on the India Chin border, UM on 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:46.640 the western part of the mr UM and there's pretty 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:50.040 reliable accounts that there were UM, there were bombs that 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:54.240 landed in Indian territory. UM. I mean, as you reference, 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.640 they there was a bombing in um a Chin state 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:02.600 on a on a festival, killing least sixty civilians. They've 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:09.760 done something similar on um Uh ethnic armed organization headquarters 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:13.079 in the southeastern current territories, including the our acount of 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:16.840 armies facilities in those areas. So there has been a 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:22.760 shift in tactic to UM targeting headquarters facilities in that sense, 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:26.520 and as you said, kind of civilian targets to I 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:30.079 don't know, you know, this is just the modus operandi 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:35.040 of an institution that is devoid of humanity and UM 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:39.680 so alienated from society that they you know, they're they're 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.480 willing to go to any ends to kind of protect 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:45.760 themselves and their control of power. I think, particularly now 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:49.679 that they've seen that the public is against them, and 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:54.400 UM probably quite concerned that if they are unsuccessful in 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:57.800 this military endeavor that they will be kind of strung up, 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:00.599 you know. So it's UM, I think it's kind of 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.640 a sign of desperation and as you mentioned, kind of 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:07.840 a tactical shift. Maybe we should explain the sort of 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:10.800 four cut strategy which has been a long term strategy 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:13.839 even before the coup of the military, and what that 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.599 means and how that sort of provide I guess, I 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:19.040 don't know, like a moral framework, maybe a certain way 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:21.520 that you know that it's it's not like they started 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:24.920 doing this ship in February one, right like that, this 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.200 is what this is how they do stuff. I mean, 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:29.560 this is an institution that's been at war with its 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:34.880 own people for seventy years. Um. Yeah, I mean the 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:39.840 there is an underlying philosophy of the more military that 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:45.000 that they essentially are the protectors of national sovereignty and 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:48.120 to a certain degree of protectors of the Bomar ethnic 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:52.640 group and Bomar Buddhism in particular. And um, this is 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:58.400 a deeply in trance philosophy within the UM military establishment. 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:02.920 And UM it's been to a certain degree of fairly 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:08.920 compelling narrative for retention and institutional solidarity, which is why 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:10.760 in some part I mean, it's one of the reasons 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:12.840 there are a number why this the s A C. 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:16.560 And the the sit that memory military is has been 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:23.360 resilient to UM collapse, despite you know, being extremely incompetent 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:27.320 and UM very isolated UM and virtually never having one 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:29.960 a war despite being at war for seventy years and 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:34.160 having structural and military a vantages UM. And so this 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:38.160 is kind of underlying the justification and the moral philosophy 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:43.120 of this institution that is morally UM corrupted. But as 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:47.680 you said, their UM tactical strategy is essentially one of 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:54.600 social isolation, division UM and ensuring as much human suffering 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:59.520 as possible so as to UM pacify a population into 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.920 submissi sh in. And so essentially the strategy is to 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:07.840 kind of cut communications and food supply and um uh 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:11.680 connections between communities and these sorts of things, which is UM. 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:14.640 For for a very long time, the military strategy has 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:17.680 been one of divide and conquer, in which they've UM 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:23.320 attempted to exacerbate divisions between ethnic and religious minority communities 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:26.440 to ensure that they would not face a united front. 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:31.240 And so the incredible challenge and opportunity of the current 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:35.840 resistance movement is one in which the MIAM or military 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:39.400 is no longer at the table in conversations with one 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:43.320 another UM, and they are trying to build cohesion with 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:48.520 one another and Frankly, this is where there's unbelievable progress 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:52.560 that I don't think it's enough attention and appreciation that 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:57.440 there's meaningful changes in behavior in terms of the bomar 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:01.600 majority of the communities, posture towards ethnic and religious minorities, 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:08.600 and you know, communication and coordination across um institutions that 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:11.639 had historically been at odds and happy to go more 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.439 into that, but yeah, the strategy of divide and conqueror 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:18.640 is really front and center. Yeah, and ironically, by pushing 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:21.119 that so high that they've they've done the complete opposite, 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:23.760 which is forced people to form like a popular front 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:26.200 against them. Yeah, let's talk about that, because I find 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:29.399 it really fascinating how like even how like e A 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:32.800 O s and PDFs are kind of vaguely underneath a 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:36.520 unified command at this point. And again, let's talk about 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:39.520 how those barriers which existed for so long a sort 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:43.399 of gradually breaking down now yeah, rapidly. I guess one 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:45.919 of the ways in which there's been a meaningful shift 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:51.280 has been just kind of the individual experiences of the 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:54.760 military's atrocities. I mean, um, I think in your previous 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:59.840 episode with Gantomo, he had indicated that ps uh. You know, 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.600 public perception of Rohenja has shifted somewhat, although it's kind 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:05.960 of questionable whether it's a durable shift and whether it's 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.960 meaningful and all that. But um. He had attributed that 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:11.720 shift in part to the fact that the Bomar majority 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:16.160 Buddhist population is now experiencing frankly, some of the forms 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:20.080 of atrocity that the Rohenja had experienced, you know, in 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:23.760 the seventies and the nineties and then in seventeen UM 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:27.199 when things escalated to genocide. So I think this is 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.720 one of the shifts, is that the in the Burmese heartland, 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:34.920 in the area where the military recruits most of its soldiers, um, 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:40.600 they are undertaking the most arguably the most um extreme atrocities, 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:44.200 burning villages to the ground, um, you know, just horrendous 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:46.480 stuff that like I don't even want to say on 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:49.440 the air, but just um, you know, just an incredible 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:53.919 campaign of terror. Um. In part because the people's defense 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:58.359 forces and the resistance forces are are extremely strong there 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:01.439 and only strengthening and respond to these atrocities. So I 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:04.240 think that's one of the dynamics is that there's um, 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:07.639 there's been a shift in perception because of UM, because 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:11.280 of the Hunter's behavior. Another is that, frankly, there's just 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:14.560 a massive political shift at play. I mean, you have, 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:18.520 you know, February one, the National League, like Nationally for 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.960 Democracy Led Government is deposed and they don't necessarily have 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:25.439 arms or an experience of military combat, whereas the ethnic 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:28.840 armed organizations have been fighting for seventy years against the 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:33.040 central government, including the National League for Democracy Led Government. 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:35.919 And so there is a shift in power at that 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:39.520 moment um that you know, shift power from the BAMAR 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:43.040 Center to ethnic minority communities in a in a particular way. 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:47.840 So UM, that kind of open space for greater humility 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:51.560 and greater dialogue and UM, you know, willingness to make 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:54.959 concessions to ethnic and religious mi arty communities. UM. And 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.560 that isn't there's actually been tremendous progress there. So there's 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:02.919 the National Unity Consultative Council, which is you know, probably 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:05.760 the most important dialogue platform, but one one that is 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:11.320 very focused on big picture governance challenges UM and long 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:15.560 term kind of national dialogue processes. But UM, there's been 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:18.600 some good progress there. But frankly, the most progress has 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:23.879 been made in UM military and governance coordination platforms. So 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:27.919 this includes the C three C, which is essentially a 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:31.840 command of control platform that's between the National Unity government 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:36.960 and ethnic armed organization leadership where they're coordinating military strategy 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:41.159 and tactics. So that and there's been considerable trust building 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:45.560 through those sorts of operations. And similarly, there's been trust 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:50.840 building in you know, basic things like coordinating humanitarian assistance 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:55.520 or UM local administration or policing these sorts of things. 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:59.400 UM where there's UM, you know, there's a problem that's 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:01.480 needs to be solved in the near term, and we 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:04.560 can come together to solve it collaboratively and in that 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:07.840 process sort of build understanding and trust with one another. 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:12.159 So UM, there's been really meaningful differences I've seen in 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:17.480 terms of cohesion across traditional lines of intercommunal division. UM. 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:19.800 Obviously a long way to go, but this is a 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:22.520 lot of what what we're working on at the U 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:24.920 S and stitutent piece and UM that the U S 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:28.720 Government is supporting is trying to support the resistance capacity 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:32.320 to chart a viable pathway to stabilization, and a lot 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:38.320 of that relies upon building cohesion and trust among resistance groups. Yeah, 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:42.080 everyone I spoke to maybe not everyone I spoke to 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:45.960 is Mama, some people Karen UM, and some of them 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:48.040 were some of the people we've spoken to that remotely 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:52.880 or ranger. UM. All of them said that what has 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:55.960 to come out of this is like a federalized democracy. 0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:58.920 Do you think that that's that's likely? And what does 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:01.400 that look like in the country it's been a war 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:05.160 with itself for most of the century. Yeah, I mean, 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:08.399 clearly this is a question that needs to be answered 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:12.760 by them people. UM. And I think the National Unity 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:15.399 Consultative Council is a good platform for having this discussion. 0:22:15.840 --> 0:22:17.800 But there is a number of free requisits for for 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:20.000 having that discussion is and one of them is kind 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:25.600 of new norms of dialogue based on trust and mutual 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:31.840 um respect. But yeah, I think that, um, the only 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:37.479 viable pathway to stability is you know, is one that 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:42.280 results in a federal democratic system in which subnational federal 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:46.000 units have a degree of autonomy UM, and in which 0:22:46.040 --> 0:22:50.960 there is a baseline of equality. UM. There's rule of law, 0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:55.640 independent judiciary, UM. You know, just the basic fundamentals that 0:22:55.960 --> 0:23:00.879 ensure protections of minority populations. Uh. UM. You know. Another 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:05.399 challenge being that even you know, within states like Kachin State, 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:07.920 where you know, the Kachin at the community is an 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:10.840 ethnic minority at the national level, but there are also 0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:15.040 subminorities that you know, like the Shawnee population, and and 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:18.000 there's concerns that you know, there may um there needs 0:23:18.000 --> 0:23:20.280 to be productions for the minorities within the minority state. 0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:22.040 So you know, all of these things need to be 0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:24.520 sort of worked out. And this is of course like 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:28.480 a maybe a decade long national dialogue process that will 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:32.439 ultimately culminate in a new federal governance structure, a new 0:23:33.000 --> 0:23:37.080 security structure that you know, maybe doesn't have a federal 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:40.480 you know, a union level military with the level of 0:23:40.520 --> 0:23:44.119 autonomy or political involvement that you know has played this 0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:47.199 country for so long. But this is really like the 0:23:47.280 --> 0:23:50.360 key to long term peace and stability in the country. 0:23:50.359 --> 0:23:54.320 And frankly, like it felt a long way off under 0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:57.639 the NLD administration. I mean, they were making a lot 0:23:57.720 --> 0:24:00.239 of progress in a lot of ways, but you know, 0:24:00.520 --> 0:24:04.840 building a just and inequitable governance structure in which ethnic 0:24:04.840 --> 0:24:08.399 and religious minorities had a voice and didn't feel oppressed 0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:12.560 by the dominant but mor Budhist population. Um. Frankfully, it 0:24:12.640 --> 0:24:15.560 was it was quite a ways off, and this, you know, 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:19.240 as horrible as the coup has been, it is definitely 0:24:19.240 --> 0:24:21.760 a shock to the system that may open up new 0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:26.280 pathways for dialogue, um, new opportunities for trust building, and 0:24:26.640 --> 0:24:29.720 you know, the opportunity to you know, think about a 0:24:29.760 --> 0:24:32.600 new model of governance that is you know, more just 0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:35.720 more equitable and more inclusive. Yeah, it's definitely bought in 0:24:35.760 --> 0:24:38.960 a whole generation of younger people who like aren't sort 0:24:38.960 --> 0:24:41.439 of why didn't come through the institutions that created the 0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:43.480 old regime and just came at this. It's like I'm 0:24:43.520 --> 0:24:47.040 seventeen and I'm bucking angry and like, I'm going to 0:24:47.119 --> 0:24:50.520 make this better sort of however I can. And yeah, 0:24:50.640 --> 0:24:56.040 they're they're really, i mean obviously very inspirational and then 0:24:56.320 --> 0:24:59.479 fascinated to talk to I wonder, like, how do you 0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:04.080 see the end to this conflict? Because we're still a 0:25:04.080 --> 0:25:08.480 long way from either side having a definitive military victory. Right, Certainly, 0:25:08.920 --> 0:25:11.400 all these big cities are still more or less controlled 0:25:11.400 --> 0:25:14.160 by the Hunter, and that's there's not an immediate way 0:25:14.200 --> 0:25:16.600 that I can foresee them not being that way. So 0:25:17.200 --> 0:25:18.960 if I could ask you to like speculate a little 0:25:18.960 --> 0:25:21.560 bit or look at the way things are going. How 0:25:21.600 --> 0:25:23.320 do we get out of the situation where the hunters 0:25:23.359 --> 0:25:29.520 bombing schools and music concerts and right, um m hmm, 0:25:29.960 --> 0:25:32.840 it's yeah. This is honestly like I think everyone is 0:25:32.920 --> 0:25:37.360 kind of lost, um in our attempts to make predictions 0:25:37.400 --> 0:25:43.320 of where this is going. Um. Honestly, I don't know 0:25:43.520 --> 0:25:46.560 that there is a path to a military victory for 0:25:47.520 --> 0:25:51.920 either side here. UM. I mean it seems pretty unlikely 0:25:51.960 --> 0:25:55.800 that you'll SEEPDS marching on nepied on capturing the Ministry 0:25:55.800 --> 0:26:00.680 of Defense anytime soon. Um. But equally unlikely that the 0:26:00.800 --> 0:26:05.120 s a C will consolidate, you know, control of the country. 0:26:05.240 --> 0:26:09.320 I mean, that's just that's just not going to happen. UM. 0:26:09.359 --> 0:26:13.400 So I mean the the a lot of our work 0:26:13.800 --> 0:26:16.840 is thinking through the best postile outcomes and increasing the 0:26:16.880 --> 0:26:18.760 probably trying doing the work to try to increase the 0:26:18.760 --> 0:26:23.480 probability of those outcomes. And I think the um, this 0:26:23.560 --> 0:26:25.359 is where it's just like I have questions for a 0:26:25.400 --> 0:26:27.480 lot of the international actors that are supporting the s 0:26:27.600 --> 0:26:30.080 a C because I I just don't know of any 0:26:30.119 --> 0:26:35.280 possible pathway to peace and stabilization that goes through a 0:26:35.440 --> 0:26:40.440 stronger s a C. It just seems unfathomable. Um, But 0:26:40.800 --> 0:26:44.800 you know, there are pathways to stabilization that go through 0:26:44.920 --> 0:26:50.600 a stronger resistance movement that either yields some radical transformation 0:26:50.640 --> 0:26:53.560 of the SACS composition and then some sort of dialogue 0:26:53.600 --> 0:26:58.920 process UM or you know, just a very very extended 0:26:59.800 --> 0:27:03.560 uh um conflict in which you know, the resistance holds 0:27:03.720 --> 0:27:07.480 territory UM in some parts of the country, the SAC 0:27:07.680 --> 0:27:11.399 controls some other areas UM. Over an extended period, the 0:27:11.560 --> 0:27:15.440 ethnic armed organizations contain kind of UM act more and 0:27:15.520 --> 0:27:18.640 more autonomously. And you have areas in you know, Kachin 0:27:19.040 --> 0:27:22.000 and Wa Ho Kong and the Chinese border re kind 0:27:22.080 --> 0:27:24.960 state that kind of gained a bit more autonomy and 0:27:25.080 --> 0:27:28.040 sort of act more independently of one another. So like 0:27:28.119 --> 0:27:31.360 this sort of fragmentation process. And honestly, if if there 0:27:31.520 --> 0:27:35.920 is an election, you know, a sham election by the 0:27:36.119 --> 0:27:38.960 s a C, it seems to increase the probability of 0:27:39.119 --> 0:27:44.800 this fragmentation scenario. Um. You know, it increases the probability 0:27:44.880 --> 0:27:47.000 that the s a C just maintains its presence in 0:27:47.080 --> 0:27:51.159 the in the urban areas and then rekind state Kachin 0:27:51.359 --> 0:27:55.360 State Waw State, these kind of become more autonomous regions, 0:27:55.480 --> 0:27:59.720 Chin State, UM, and they start to operate as some 0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:03.480 independent states. So honestly, that's that's part of why I 0:28:03.520 --> 0:28:07.440 feel like support to the SAC. Not only is it 0:28:07.960 --> 0:28:10.680 sec for the elections, I should say, not only does 0:28:10.760 --> 0:28:15.240 it almost definitely increase violence because you know the elections 0:28:15.240 --> 0:28:18.840 are a target, but also it increases the probability of 0:28:18.960 --> 0:28:24.080 national fragmentation UM. And it doesn't do anything to increase 0:28:24.119 --> 0:28:26.800 the probability of stability. So I just don't I don't 0:28:26.800 --> 0:28:32.040 really see that that being a pathway to any form 0:28:32.119 --> 0:28:37.480 of stability or ending the SACS bombings of schools. Yeah, 0:28:37.600 --> 0:28:39.440 I think it gives them this way talking point bit 0:28:39.480 --> 0:28:42.600 at the Russian shamow elections in the dom Bass, like 0:28:43.440 --> 0:28:45.520 like because we saw like I think it was a 0:28:45.600 --> 0:28:48.240 mobi a PDFU. I don't know if you saw this, 0:28:48.280 --> 0:28:50.080 but they did a drive by and shot some people 0:28:50.160 --> 0:28:52.600 who were polling for it out doing some kind of 0:28:52.680 --> 0:28:55.800 election stuff, and obviously that gives them this kind of oh, look, 0:28:55.800 --> 0:28:58.760 our election workers are being attacked with terrible people. The 0:28:58.800 --> 0:29:01.560 PDFs a kind of but you know, if you've spent 0:29:01.640 --> 0:29:04.719 more than ten minutes your entire life reading about Miama, 0:29:04.800 --> 0:29:09.680 then you're realized that that's the false claim. The international 0:29:09.720 --> 0:29:12.600 community just just doesn't seem to care to a large 0:29:12.680 --> 0:29:17.600 degree about the trustees in Miama, about the revolution in Miama, 0:29:17.760 --> 0:29:20.160 about the cou and miam A certainly doesn't care in 0:29:20.240 --> 0:29:22.800 the same way that it cares about what's happening in Ukraine. Right, 0:29:23.560 --> 0:29:27.760 it doesn't care with man pads and tanks and guns 0:29:27.880 --> 0:29:29.880 and training and all the things that could bring this 0:29:29.960 --> 0:29:33.360 water an end much more quickly. Do you think that 0:29:33.560 --> 0:29:37.280 that will change or it's just going to be Burmese 0:29:37.360 --> 0:29:40.000 people liberating Burmese people because the world doesn't care about 0:29:40.040 --> 0:29:44.000 them or it doesn't care in a material fashion. Yeah, 0:29:44.120 --> 0:29:47.680 I think there's like, yeah, I think there's um sort 0:29:47.680 --> 0:29:51.800 of like two dynamics that player. One is that, yeah, 0:29:51.880 --> 0:29:56.440 people care a lot less than Ukraine or Tiwan or 0:29:56.600 --> 0:30:00.680 other geopolitical interest. They see this to a certain level 0:30:00.760 --> 0:30:04.200 as a domestic issue that doesn't have regional implications, something 0:30:04.280 --> 0:30:07.840 that we're very focused on demonstrating is totally untrue. Um. 0:30:08.520 --> 0:30:11.880 And the other thing is that people don't know what 0:30:12.040 --> 0:30:16.480 to do. And like I mean, even um, the US 0:30:16.600 --> 0:30:19.160 Congress just past the Burma Act, which is a piece 0:30:19.200 --> 0:30:23.440 of legislation that essentially signals congressional interest in Burma and 0:30:23.720 --> 0:30:27.720 more to be done UM, alongside appropriations and resources to 0:30:27.760 --> 0:30:30.960 support it. UM. The challenge now is figuring out what 0:30:31.240 --> 0:30:33.280 is the best use of resources. And I think that 0:30:33.640 --> 0:30:39.800 UM countries like Japan and UM, honestly some U states, 0:30:40.240 --> 0:30:45.760 you know, Ascan states. It's more they are very uncomfortable 0:30:45.920 --> 0:30:49.400 with the engaging with revolutionary actors and there's just not 0:30:49.520 --> 0:30:53.880 a lot of certainty as to how to help because 0:30:54.120 --> 0:30:58.960 there's like, okay, military assistance UM to the end eu G. 0:30:59.360 --> 0:31:01.920 It's like there's a lot of concern that you know, 0:31:02.760 --> 0:31:07.760 you know, significant expansion of arms access in the countries. 0:31:07.920 --> 0:31:10.400 You know, you have this mass proliferation of weapons. You 0:31:10.520 --> 0:31:16.360 have you know, concerns about post conflict warlordism or weapons 0:31:16.880 --> 0:31:20.000 and resources getting into the hands of narco traffickers. UM. 0:31:20.120 --> 0:31:23.400 You know, there's just a lot of uncertainty, and so 0:31:23.520 --> 0:31:26.400 there's not an adequate given what the first point that 0:31:26.480 --> 0:31:29.400 this is really a kind of peripheral regional matter in 0:31:29.480 --> 0:31:33.360 the eyes of some UM. It yields a very low 0:31:33.480 --> 0:31:37.400 risk tolerance and uncertainty as to what to do. And 0:31:37.520 --> 0:31:41.200 so this kind of has resulted in a couple of things, 0:31:41.360 --> 0:31:46.400 one being that the buck is just passed to multilateral 0:31:46.480 --> 0:31:50.080 institutions like ACON. I mean, I think China has done 0:31:50.080 --> 0:31:53.200 a very effective job of ensuring nothing happens in the 0:31:53.320 --> 0:31:57.560 international realm UM by pushing it to ascon which it 0:31:57.640 --> 0:32:01.640 knows is incapable of doing anything meaning well. UM, and 0:32:02.360 --> 0:32:06.040 so it's just relegated to multilateral platforms where nothing will happen. 0:32:06.200 --> 0:32:09.840 You always have a veto from UM Highland Cambodia or 0:32:10.080 --> 0:32:12.320 Russia and China at the n S, at the Security 0:32:12.360 --> 0:32:17.080 Council UM, and so you know, it's these combinations of 0:32:17.160 --> 0:32:19.320 factors that really challenge this thing. And even within the 0:32:19.400 --> 0:32:22.400 U S. Government there's like a very robust inter agency 0:32:22.440 --> 0:32:25.760 debate about exactly what is the best form of assistance, 0:32:25.800 --> 0:32:28.400 what is the most ethical way of engaging and UM 0:32:28.600 --> 0:32:31.880 what are risks associated with different forms of assistance to 0:32:31.960 --> 0:32:36.040 the resistance movement UM. So I think that uncertainty plays 0:32:36.120 --> 0:32:38.880 a lot into it, and so UM a lot of 0:32:38.960 --> 0:32:40.680 what I think there's a lot of value that could 0:32:40.720 --> 0:32:45.640 be added if UM the resistance movement can come together, 0:32:45.880 --> 0:32:51.320 essentially around a common set of requests from the international community. 0:32:52.200 --> 0:32:56.360 Essentially saying this is what we need, um to be effective. 0:32:56.760 --> 0:33:00.480 And you know you, based on your risk tolerance, help 0:33:00.600 --> 0:33:03.360 us as you can. But we're demonstrating to you that 0:33:03.520 --> 0:33:07.240 we have we're unified in these ways, we have these needs, 0:33:07.440 --> 0:33:12.200 and um, you know, help us however you feel is 0:33:12.320 --> 0:33:16.120 most appropriate given your risk tolerance. So I don't know, 0:33:16.240 --> 0:33:21.600 it's incredibly complicated. I think them having China, India, Bangladesh, 0:33:21.840 --> 0:33:25.200 Thailand and Laos as your neighbors also makes this just 0:33:25.360 --> 0:33:29.840 incredibly challenging. You can't access the country in the way 0:33:29.880 --> 0:33:33.720 that you can um for Ukraine. Um, so just logistically, 0:33:33.800 --> 0:33:37.880 it's incredibly challenging. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, it does seem 0:33:37.960 --> 0:33:40.680 still like like you said, like it's like in Ukraine, 0:33:40.720 --> 0:33:43.760 we also have deeply problematic groups who we are, who 0:33:43.800 --> 0:33:47.080 we are arming, And yeah, it's it's ironic that their 0:33:47.120 --> 0:33:50.760 concern is spreading the preventing the proliferation in arms, and 0:33:50.920 --> 0:33:54.080 what they've done is helped like a giant leap forward 0:33:54.200 --> 0:34:00.640 in I don't artisanal homemade weapons technology, like we're probably 0:34:00.680 --> 0:34:03.400 only seeing the very tip of and like our reporting, like, 0:34:03.440 --> 0:34:06.240 I'm sure that's more stuff that we'll see as time 0:34:06.320 --> 0:34:09.640 goes on. And but I wonder what can people do? 0:34:09.960 --> 0:34:12.200 People often ask like if where they can donate, how 0:34:12.280 --> 0:34:15.120 they can help, right, because obviously it is extremely difficult 0:34:15.160 --> 0:34:18.920 to see little kids getting shot in schools and want 0:34:18.960 --> 0:34:22.640 to do something. And I wonder what you would suggest 0:34:22.680 --> 0:34:25.520 for people who are looking to help. We've both spoken 0:34:25.560 --> 0:34:28.280 to people who are collecting money through click to donate, 0:34:28.360 --> 0:34:31.080 which is one thing people can do. But um, do 0:34:31.200 --> 0:34:33.200 you want to explain that, actually explain how people can 0:34:33.480 --> 0:34:36.919 and can participate in click to donate? I think that's cool. Yeah, 0:34:36.960 --> 0:34:41.799 I mean there's been a number of really fascinating fundraising models. Um. Yeah, 0:34:41.800 --> 0:34:45.360 the click to notating model is essentially the resistance leveraging 0:34:45.440 --> 0:34:49.200 what it has um a comparative advantage in which is 0:34:49.840 --> 0:34:53.319 huge numbers of people on their side. And essentially, um, 0:34:54.000 --> 0:34:58.160 the resistance creates creates web pages or YouTube content or anything, 0:34:58.239 --> 0:35:01.520 and you know, just engages the advertisements on those pages, 0:35:01.600 --> 0:35:04.760 which create increases the value of those that ad space 0:35:04.840 --> 0:35:07.759 and then they can kind of generate revenue that way. Um. 0:35:08.360 --> 0:35:11.360 The National Unity government has also done some really fascinating 0:35:11.440 --> 0:35:18.359 stuff issuing bonds, uh, conducting a lottery, um, selling off 0:35:19.160 --> 0:35:23.400 you know s a c military properties. I think they 0:35:23.480 --> 0:35:25.760 just sold the mini on a lines house and yangon 0:35:25.880 --> 0:35:28.840 for a considerable amount UM. So it's kind of a 0:35:28.920 --> 0:35:35.200 an incredible fundraising model and requiring tremendous innovation. They also 0:35:35.280 --> 0:35:39.680 created uh a financial technology called and u g pay 0:35:39.800 --> 0:35:43.680 and a digital current currency d mmk um. So yeah, 0:35:43.719 --> 0:35:47.399 it's it's kind of a remarkable um innovation there. Um. 0:35:47.800 --> 0:35:51.000 In terms of what kind of a uh your listeners 0:35:51.239 --> 0:35:57.040 could do, I think, UM, you know, I think engaging 0:35:57.520 --> 0:36:01.520 in UH so of the international kind of advocacy and 0:36:01.520 --> 0:36:05.200 awareness raising is really valuable. I think some of these 0:36:05.239 --> 0:36:08.360 things like if you know, if you're a congress person 0:36:09.239 --> 0:36:12.640 acknowledges demand for this, then that can increase that the 0:36:13.920 --> 0:36:15.880 pressure that they put on the State Department, d D, 0:36:16.160 --> 0:36:19.720 National Security Council UM and potentially increase the risk tolerance 0:36:19.760 --> 0:36:23.239 of the US government if if there's just more pressure there. 0:36:23.360 --> 0:36:28.160 So those sorts of things I think, UM. Honestly engaging 0:36:28.239 --> 0:36:31.640 with some of the content that's being that's being created 0:36:31.719 --> 0:36:35.480 by the resistance, learning about my mr um, you know, 0:36:35.640 --> 0:36:39.640 just just following the story. I mean it's like, I 0:36:39.680 --> 0:36:42.080 don't know, you've probably experienced this doing your reporting, but 0:36:42.160 --> 0:36:47.440 it's just like the most unbelievable stories of human resilience 0:36:48.440 --> 0:36:51.520 and just like, I don't know, it's it's such like 0:36:51.640 --> 0:36:54.680 an honor to be nearby these people who are just 0:36:55.440 --> 0:36:59.920 risking so much for such a for such an honorable 0:37:00.040 --> 0:37:03.160 pos that they truly believe in. It's just like the 0:37:03.280 --> 0:37:09.800 quintessential example of integrity and um, yeah, goodness, Yeah, it's amazing. 0:37:09.840 --> 0:37:12.320 It's stuff you couldn't make up, and like it's stories 0:37:12.400 --> 0:37:15.920 you can sell as fiction almost like yeah, their integrity, 0:37:16.160 --> 0:37:20.160 like even they're like and one thing I find absolutely amazing, 0:37:20.520 --> 0:37:23.560 Like you said, perspectives on ethnic groups have changed on 0:37:23.760 --> 0:37:26.360 so many things that people they're willingness to be like, 0:37:27.040 --> 0:37:29.120 I've examined my stance on this and it was the 0:37:29.200 --> 0:37:31.799 wrong stance, and I'm changing my stance on this. It's 0:37:31.960 --> 0:37:36.879 like we spoke to so many young people who were like, yeah, 0:37:36.920 --> 0:37:41.560 I was fairly misogynist, like a February first one, and 0:37:42.040 --> 0:37:46.040 since then, like I fought alongside women. I've you know, 0:37:46.440 --> 0:37:48.319 I've seen them do things that I didn't. I've been 0:37:48.360 --> 0:37:50.080 told that they weren't capable of and I've changed I 0:37:50.239 --> 0:37:52.400 was wrong, and like we need to not be a 0:37:52.480 --> 0:37:55.640 misogynist country going forward. Yeah, no, there was I was 0:37:55.920 --> 0:37:57.880 maybe you know this group, but I was engaging with 0:37:59.480 --> 0:38:02.000 organization and that was it's led by kind of an activist, 0:38:02.160 --> 0:38:05.320 former activist um and he was kind of saying that 0:38:05.480 --> 0:38:10.279 they've essentially tried to eliminate all of the sort of 0:38:10.480 --> 0:38:16.040 misogyny in their in their training protocols, like even just 0:38:16.239 --> 0:38:19.000 using terms like man up or something. It's like wiped 0:38:19.040 --> 0:38:21.480 it from their approach because it's like that's a misogynistic 0:38:21.640 --> 0:38:25.319 kind of you know, approach to thinking about strength and power. 0:38:25.360 --> 0:38:28.440 And so it's like what you're saying is I'm here, 0:38:28.480 --> 0:38:31.200 I'm feeling the same hearing the same things. It's which 0:38:31.280 --> 0:38:35.320 is incredibly powerful given particularly given the pressures and what 0:38:35.400 --> 0:38:39.439 they're all going through, just having the wherewithal to kind 0:38:39.440 --> 0:38:41.680 of like their head ups and think about, you know, 0:38:41.800 --> 0:38:45.320 be reflective of themselves. Like imagine in the American political discourse, 0:38:45.360 --> 0:38:49.359 people actually changing their minds for once. It's remarkable. Yeah, yeah, 0:38:49.520 --> 0:38:52.040 the genuine is. And it's it's refreshing in that sense 0:38:52.160 --> 0:38:54.239 to see people like wanting the right thing and not 0:38:54.440 --> 0:38:58.839 letting tiny differences like blow them into seven thousand different pieces, right, 0:38:58.880 --> 0:39:00.880 the broad date ring on one thing, yeah, exactly, And 0:39:00.920 --> 0:39:03.520 that's kind of the remarkable. I mean the Nationally Unity 0:39:03.560 --> 0:39:07.040 Consultative Council for example. You know, it's how its challenges 0:39:07.320 --> 0:39:10.480 UM as a dialogue platform, but it's still going and 0:39:10.560 --> 0:39:12.760 that is like people are still coming to the table. 0:39:13.320 --> 0:39:18.000 And frankly, it's remarkable because repeatedly, in quote unquote peace 0:39:18.040 --> 0:39:22.520 processes in MR history, they've collapsed because you know, someone 0:39:22.680 --> 0:39:26.040 said something and you know another party left the table 0:39:26.600 --> 0:39:29.840 um and didn't return. So the fact that these dialogues 0:39:29.960 --> 0:39:35.759 are continuing on is an incredible testament to people's willingness 0:39:35.920 --> 0:39:39.480 to kind of open up and be more humble and 0:39:39.640 --> 0:39:43.080 kind of consider the other's opinion and question their own, 0:39:43.360 --> 0:39:48.160 which is you know, a lesson we could all learn. Yeah, yeah, definitely, Billy, 0:39:48.239 --> 0:39:50.960 where can people like, where can people find you online? 0:39:51.040 --> 0:39:53.080 And where can they find more good information about my 0:39:53.239 --> 0:39:57.319 mba UM I am. You know, if you search Billy 0:39:57.360 --> 0:40:00.399 Ford at us I P dot org, you and find 0:40:00.560 --> 0:40:03.120 the stuff I've written recently, and then I'm on Twitter 0:40:03.280 --> 0:40:06.400 at b I L L E. The number four, the 0:40:06.560 --> 0:40:11.560 letter d UM and good sources of information. I mean 0:40:11.600 --> 0:40:17.000 there's great UM investigative work by Myanmar witness UM which 0:40:17.080 --> 0:40:21.879 is just an incredible group of researchers. Um, there's been 0:40:21.960 --> 0:40:25.239 a couple of good reports recently by Global Witness and 0:40:25.760 --> 0:40:30.000 Earth Rights related to sanctions that just came out. Um 0:40:30.480 --> 0:40:31.840 U s I P. You can check out some of 0:40:31.920 --> 0:40:34.680 our writing. My colleagues Jason Tower in Brasilo Coop just 0:40:34.719 --> 0:40:38.600 published something related to how the conflict has regional consequences 0:40:38.719 --> 0:40:43.200 that could be of interest. Um and UM there's I 0:40:43.239 --> 0:40:46.720 don't know, there's innumerable great um meam R think Tanks, 0:40:46.920 --> 0:40:50.800 the Chin Human Rights Organization has done some incredible research 0:40:50.880 --> 0:40:55.520 and reporting about military atrocities and Chin state. Um. You 0:40:55.600 --> 0:40:58.360 could go on and on, but um. Yeah, if you 0:40:58.520 --> 0:41:00.719 don't know, check out my Twitter. I've I tend to 0:41:01.000 --> 0:41:03.680 repost stuff that I find fascinating and there's there's a 0:41:03.719 --> 0:41:07.040 lot out there. Yeah. Great, Well, thank you so much 0:41:07.120 --> 0:41:08.960 for giving us some of your time this afternoon. I 0:41:09.080 --> 0:41:11.719 really appreciate it. It's good to catch up. Yeah, thanks 0:41:11.760 --> 0:41:27.120 for having me. James has been great, no worries, Hello 0:41:27.239 --> 0:41:29.880 and welcome to It could happen here once again hosted 0:41:29.960 --> 0:41:32.840 by myself and Drew. As you know, we talked about whatever. 0:41:33.840 --> 0:41:36.680 We've entered a new year, so you know, Happy New 0:41:36.760 --> 0:41:38.239 Year by the way, James, I don't think I told you. 0:41:38.440 --> 0:41:42.200 Oh yeah, Happy New Year, Andrew. Yeah. What I've in 0:41:42.360 --> 0:41:44.920 question this time is carrying over from some of the 0:41:44.960 --> 0:41:47.719 discussions we had in the previous year, because you know, 0:41:47.880 --> 0:41:52.320 time moves forward. Uh, And with time moving forward, hopefully 0:41:52.320 --> 0:41:56.040 to know it, it becomes excreasingly necessary, very very necessary 0:41:56.400 --> 0:41:59.840 to interrogate into uproot a lot of the classical capitleists 0:41:59.840 --> 0:42:06.240 I ideas embedded in a world, an ideology, for example, 0:42:06.320 --> 0:42:12.160 it just won't die, that idea of development, despite as 0:42:12.200 --> 0:42:17.319 many critics over the past few decades, despite the colonizing 0:42:17.520 --> 0:42:20.279 and post clear nations, people of those nations you know, 0:42:21.000 --> 0:42:25.240 rallying against such projects of development due to the harms 0:42:25.280 --> 0:42:29.760 they've caused socially environments and otherwise, this ideology, this idea 0:42:29.760 --> 0:42:35.120 of development, just won't die. Um. But here we are, 0:42:37.360 --> 0:42:39.719 and I think at least here in this podcast, among 0:42:39.880 --> 0:42:42.600 the audience of this podcast, we can agree that the 0:42:42.680 --> 0:42:45.320 time has come for some kind of alternative. Maybe some 0:42:45.520 --> 0:42:48.560 kind of alternative can happen here, you know, a different view, 0:42:48.680 --> 0:42:53.279 a new path you all frecurrently have and stage right 0:42:54.320 --> 0:42:58.120 when vere are you familiar with the concept, I'm not 0:42:58.280 --> 0:43:02.239 actually no, we fun to learn about all right, well, fantastic, 0:43:02.560 --> 0:43:05.320 So you could ask anything any questions you have about 0:43:05.320 --> 0:43:07.600 it as I go along. So a lot of the 0:43:07.680 --> 0:43:11.480 early concepts related to this idea of when Vivie arose 0:43:11.760 --> 0:43:15.440 in reaction to the classical economic development strategies that have 0:43:15.680 --> 0:43:18.799 ripped through communities in their environments. I'm talking of course 0:43:18.800 --> 0:43:24.720 about acts of inclosure, prioritization, new life, new liberalization, economic 0:43:24.760 --> 0:43:28.800 imperialisms and so forth. Capitalism and its element basically government 0:43:28.840 --> 0:43:33.440 projects that lyne the pockets of politicians and bureaucrats, development banks, 0:43:33.520 --> 0:43:36.400 quote and quote that really never seemed to fund the 0:43:36.440 --> 0:43:42.280 people directly. When Revere draws from this heritage, a heritage 0:43:42.360 --> 0:43:49.160 of indigenous communities, uh, particularly in South America, in some cultures, 0:43:49.800 --> 0:43:54.400 they have no concepts analogous to the modern western capitalist 0:43:54.480 --> 0:43:58.480 concept of development. Of course, modernis and coots. There's no 0:43:58.680 --> 0:44:02.560 concept of a linear life, a linear time, even with 0:44:02.719 --> 0:44:06.759 a foreman subsequent state. And so the idea of underdevelopment 0:44:06.880 --> 0:44:09.839 and development of primitive and advance just does not mesh 0:44:10.560 --> 0:44:14.200 with that ontology. And all these and these concepts of 0:44:14.280 --> 0:44:17.800 wealth and poverty, no are they are necessarily concepts of 0:44:18.440 --> 0:44:21.160 wealth and poverty as we understand them based on the 0:44:21.160 --> 0:44:25.720 accumulational lack of material good I've said when revere probably 0:44:25.800 --> 0:44:28.320 a dozen times by now. The question is what is 0:44:29.400 --> 0:44:33.080 when revere? In Latin America, the concept of gen vivere 0:44:33.360 --> 0:44:40.319 or good life or good living provides new alternatives to development. UM, 0:44:40.480 --> 0:44:43.160 and it's very nstitute. I feel like, I feel like 0:44:43.480 --> 0:44:45.120 it's something that we should have been working on for 0:44:45.160 --> 0:44:48.360 a really long time. UM. You know, like me personally, 0:44:48.360 --> 0:44:50.200 I don't know what you James, but I really care 0:44:50.239 --> 0:44:54.640 about GDP growth or increase in return on investment. You know, 0:44:54.680 --> 0:44:57.399 I care about living a good life. I care about 0:44:57.480 --> 0:45:00.560 gen vivere. And so I think the name of the 0:45:00.600 --> 0:45:04.040 philosophy itself and the name of the concept itself automatically 0:45:04.120 --> 0:45:07.560 gets you to ask the question what is a good life? 0:45:08.480 --> 0:45:10.640 And the answer, the beauty of the answer is that 0:45:11.200 --> 0:45:15.400 you decide that, I decide, that we decide that our 0:45:15.440 --> 0:45:19.719 communities decide that collaboratively. The good life is not some 0:45:19.920 --> 0:45:26.400 sort of policy proposal or government project or development initiative. 0:45:26.520 --> 0:45:32.080 For imposition, the good life is a pluralistic concept. Is 0:45:32.600 --> 0:45:36.120 when nos contrivers it's a different ways of living well 0:45:36.719 --> 0:45:41.839 together it's not a single homogeneous or unrealizable good life. 0:45:41.880 --> 0:45:45.279 It's not like this single homogeneous pursuit of profit that 0:45:45.320 --> 0:45:48.120 our entire system is built around. Now now the good 0:45:48.200 --> 0:45:52.080 life when revere, it's more about people living well together 0:45:52.120 --> 0:45:55.440 in a community, in different communities living well together, and 0:45:55.600 --> 0:45:58.279 individuals and communities living well with nature. And that these 0:45:58.320 --> 0:46:00.560 concepts sound familiar, it's because you know, they must have 0:46:00.640 --> 0:46:04.320 heard it from other places. It's a it's a trend 0:46:04.480 --> 0:46:07.719 we're starting to see around the world in this twenty 0:46:08.000 --> 0:46:10.920 centery and even prior to then. Uh, these ideas are 0:46:10.960 --> 0:46:14.960 solely gained one more esteem as time goes on. Um. 0:46:15.080 --> 0:46:17.759 You know, the ideas presence in social ecology, The idea 0:46:17.840 --> 0:46:21.719 is present in various animals, tomtologies, and they're really being 0:46:21.760 --> 0:46:23.839 brought to the forefront in this time because we need 0:46:23.920 --> 0:46:29.960 them now more than ever. Despite efforts of Western forces 0:46:30.120 --> 0:46:35.120 primarily to erase and to redact and to confine these 0:46:35.239 --> 0:46:39.000 ideas and these contexts of the realm of irrelevance or 0:46:39.200 --> 0:46:44.680 backwardsness or superstition, they endure in sometimes new forms, as 0:46:44.760 --> 0:46:49.399 with gen Revere. What Reviere is about quality of life, 0:46:49.480 --> 0:46:51.960 but also molso the idea that quality of life I 0:46:52.040 --> 0:46:55.719 will well be in as individuals. It's only possible within 0:46:55.800 --> 0:46:59.840 a community. The community, which as I mentioned includes the 0:47:00.000 --> 0:47:03.120 floor and flour that's surround us and in many ways 0:47:03.320 --> 0:47:06.600 that can be interpreted, which is the real beauty of it. 0:47:07.719 --> 0:47:10.479 So as a concept, you kind of look at wend Revere. 0:47:10.800 --> 0:47:14.360 It's two word phrase and it's also a double barrel 0:47:14.600 --> 0:47:17.440 of a concept. It's a two for one package of 0:47:17.520 --> 0:47:21.280 both criticism of the classical western capitalist notion of development 0:47:22.200 --> 0:47:26.320 and an alternative to that Eurocentric tradition but onto indigenous 0:47:26.360 --> 0:47:31.520 traditions plural and so that two for one package within 0:47:31.640 --> 0:47:33.960 that and you can really unpack that package and see 0:47:34.080 --> 0:47:38.399 that you know, you see the idea of the same 0:47:38.520 --> 0:47:41.080 sort of basis that the growth is getting its critique 0:47:41.120 --> 0:47:45.160 from the same sort of ideas being shared. And in 0:47:45.280 --> 0:47:47.920 terms of alternatives, when you look into wend review, you 0:47:48.040 --> 0:47:52.319 sort of see the anarchic bent that has become ever 0:47:52.400 --> 0:47:57.080 more present in a new political imaginations over the past 0:47:57.120 --> 0:47:58.880 few years. At least it feels that way to me. 0:47:59.440 --> 0:48:08.640 That's um, that sort of community oriented, autonomy oriented, liberatory, 0:48:08.880 --> 0:48:12.960 decoding oriented mindset is becoming more and more prevalent. Of course, 0:48:12.960 --> 0:48:16.440 I could be you know, my own Internet biases and 0:48:16.520 --> 0:48:18.880 algorithms present to me what I want to see. But 0:48:19.840 --> 0:48:21.520 I would like to think that more and more people 0:48:21.680 --> 0:48:25.000 are exploring these ideas. Yeah, it is hard to say 0:48:25.080 --> 0:48:27.400 his because I feel the same way, Like am I 0:48:27.520 --> 0:48:30.319 am I seeing whatever? It's like, Oh that these new 0:48:30.400 --> 0:48:34.120 institutes and initiatives and programs and movements, it's so amazing 0:48:34.200 --> 0:48:36.879 all these things are developing. And then like you talk 0:48:37.000 --> 0:48:41.080 to somebody who is not like in this fair and 0:48:41.160 --> 0:48:45.239 they haven't heard of any of it. Yeah, you know, 0:48:45.400 --> 0:48:48.480 it's like they still think anarchism means, like I don't know, 0:48:48.600 --> 0:48:51.640 throwing a breakthrough a window like that is the whole ideology. 0:48:52.280 --> 0:48:55.319 And yeah, I don't know. We can hope, we can hope, 0:48:55.360 --> 0:48:57.080 we can hope. I would like to think it's getting 0:48:57.120 --> 0:49:00.840 more prominence, but we can only hope. And so like 0:49:01.400 --> 0:49:04.200 so like anarkis are too keen on, you know, necessarily 0:49:04.239 --> 0:49:07.440 submitting to earn and I gus some sense that's like 0:49:07.520 --> 0:49:11.120 Google Vlee and sense or some kind um. But I 0:49:11.160 --> 0:49:14.239 would like to think that anarchic ideas UM, I mean, 0:49:14.960 --> 0:49:19.800 and all the exploration that I've done of um various 0:49:19.800 --> 0:49:24.120 parts of the world however, you know, shallow my expliration 0:49:24.160 --> 0:49:28.880 has been so far, Um, I just I see it 0:49:28.920 --> 0:49:34.160 could be my anarchist tinted glasses seeing anarchic principles and everything. 0:49:34.600 --> 0:49:38.839 But I see it in certain practices, in sign ideologies 0:49:38.880 --> 0:49:42.759 and sign ideas and you know, ways of living. And 0:49:42.840 --> 0:49:45.400 I think gen Vere is a sort of a recognition 0:49:45.480 --> 0:49:49.200 of that in one sense. So there is no single 0:49:49.600 --> 0:49:53.040 gen Vivere, right, there is no single good life, you know, 0:49:53.200 --> 0:49:59.400 I might want. For example, my ben view might look like, uh, 0:50:00.040 --> 0:50:03.920 sailing the Caribbean Sea, um, you know, touching down in 0:50:04.120 --> 0:50:08.160 various islands and exploring the ecology therein. Or my good 0:50:08.200 --> 0:50:10.560 life it looked like a more settled sort of homestead 0:50:10.600 --> 0:50:15.600 existence um, or sort of a fusion of urban and 0:50:15.800 --> 0:50:20.520 rural living. Uh, sort of a good ending for the suburbs, 0:50:21.560 --> 0:50:25.120 where you're able to live in a walkable sort of 0:50:25.960 --> 0:50:29.680 environment and community that is both not too far from 0:50:29.960 --> 0:50:33.560 you know, the goings on of human social interaction, but 0:50:33.719 --> 0:50:37.920 also very much rooted and connected with, um, what's happening 0:50:38.120 --> 0:50:43.080 in the natural world. But I mean, what might your 0:50:43.160 --> 0:50:48.640 good life, your ben revie look like. James, Yeah, that's interesting, 0:50:48.719 --> 0:50:51.040 isn't it. I think, Uh, you know, I grew up 0:50:51.040 --> 0:50:53.120 in the countryside, so with light the idea of living 0:50:53.160 --> 0:50:57.040 in a rural area and still having community and having 0:50:57.840 --> 0:51:01.520 like that, being like to nature, and still also being 0:51:01.560 --> 0:51:03.799 close to people who I care about and being able 0:51:03.840 --> 0:51:07.240 to look after each other. I think it's interesting how often, 0:51:08.200 --> 0:51:12.040 like at least the sort of set like colonial concept 0:51:12.160 --> 0:51:14.719 of rural life or the construct of real life. I 0:51:14.760 --> 0:51:18.200 guess in America it's like, oh, rugged individualism, being on 0:51:18.280 --> 0:51:21.520 your own one in fact, like living in the countryside, 0:51:21.520 --> 0:51:25.440 people have to look after one another. Yeah, exactly, exactly. 0:51:26.320 --> 0:51:29.000 We maintain this kind of this this false idea that 0:51:29.360 --> 0:51:32.720 it's you against thee against the elements and crushing nature 0:51:32.840 --> 0:51:35.960 and subjecting it to your will and all this stuff. Yeah, 0:51:38.280 --> 0:51:40.680 And I think that's there's something interesting about at least 0:51:40.680 --> 0:51:44.000 the people have spoken to um in various circles and stuff. 0:51:44.520 --> 0:51:46.600 When I asked them, you know, what is your ideal life? 0:51:46.640 --> 0:51:49.160 What is your good life? I don't necessarily say when viewed. 0:51:49.160 --> 0:51:51.960 I just asked them, you know what do you want? Um? 0:51:53.520 --> 0:51:55.200 And you dig into it? You asked him a couple 0:51:55.239 --> 0:51:58.000 of problem questions, and people, despite ben vvie being a 0:51:58.080 --> 0:52:02.440 pluralistic concept, people tend to generally want similar things, and 0:52:02.520 --> 0:52:05.600 so it sort of begs the question, like, why are 0:52:05.640 --> 0:52:08.680 we in this situation in the first please, you know, 0:52:09.040 --> 0:52:10.960 because like everyone says, well, you know, I want like 0:52:11.080 --> 0:52:14.640 an involved community, and I want like I want to 0:52:14.640 --> 0:52:16.839 be able to grow my plans, and I also want 0:52:16.880 --> 0:52:19.759 to be able to do my arts and uh, you know, 0:52:20.880 --> 0:52:22.440 enjoy my time of people and do a bit of 0:52:22.560 --> 0:52:26.000 travel and not work my whole life and that kind 0:52:26.040 --> 0:52:29.400 of thing. People of course phrase it and frame it 0:52:29.520 --> 0:52:31.640 in certain ways. And so that's why I asked the 0:52:31.760 --> 0:52:35.040 proving questions because what might initially say, oh, well, like 0:52:35.120 --> 0:52:37.719 I want to retire early. I want to really dig 0:52:37.760 --> 0:52:40.319 into that means it's like I don't want to spend 0:52:40.360 --> 0:52:44.040 my whole life working, you know. Or they might say 0:52:44.120 --> 0:52:47.160 something like, um, you know, I want to I want 0:52:47.200 --> 0:52:50.120 to travel a lot, so I want to like start 0:52:50.200 --> 0:52:53.080 a business. When you ask them what kind of business 0:52:53.120 --> 0:52:55.040 they want to start, why they want to start a business, 0:52:55.080 --> 0:52:58.080 it really comes down to I want autonomy. I want 0:52:58.120 --> 0:53:00.880 flexibility in my labor. I want to control of my 0:53:00.960 --> 0:53:04.719 own le book kind of thing. Like yes, of course 0:53:04.800 --> 0:53:07.120 they are people who have they couldn't qute entrepreneur spirit 0:53:07.200 --> 0:53:08.719 who want to just be at the top of the 0:53:08.760 --> 0:53:12.080 food chain. But then I think mostly entrepreneurs they couldn't 0:53:12.120 --> 0:53:15.440 qute entrepreneurs that I've met up in people who just like, oh, well, 0:53:15.520 --> 0:53:18.840 you know, I started selling candles because I really like 0:53:19.000 --> 0:53:21.040 making candles and I wanted to share them with people, 0:53:21.239 --> 0:53:24.520 and I also need to make a living and I'm 0:53:24.520 --> 0:53:27.160 just passionate about it or whatever that kind of thing. 0:53:27.960 --> 0:53:30.279 It's undernecessarily wanted to grow it or whatever. They just 0:53:30.280 --> 0:53:32.480 want to be able to sustain themselves doing something that 0:53:32.560 --> 0:53:35.920 they enjoy. Yeah, it's interesting because we're always sold like 0:53:36.040 --> 0:53:39.800 every new advancing technology and in production that comes along, 0:53:40.000 --> 0:53:43.040 like these concepts you're talking about, like like working less, 0:53:43.160 --> 0:53:46.719 having community, all these things like always sold as what 0:53:46.840 --> 0:53:49.360 that's going to do, right, like, but instead we end 0:53:49.440 --> 0:53:53.120 up working more or the same amount and instead just 0:53:53.280 --> 0:53:55.640 generating more income for a certain group of people. Like 0:53:55.800 --> 0:53:59.919 we don't get any of these good things. But yeah, 0:54:00.080 --> 0:54:03.480 there's there's always a carrot in whatever this kind of 0:54:03.560 --> 0:54:06.359 neoliberal capitalism that we have is, but we never get 0:54:06.440 --> 0:54:10.960 there exactly. That's the tragedy of it. Another aspect of 0:54:11.160 --> 0:54:13.200 you know, the idea of the good life is that 0:54:13.239 --> 0:54:15.719 it's not a static concept, right, It's not like we 0:54:15.840 --> 0:54:17.600 come up with this good life that's when we here 0:54:17.960 --> 0:54:19.879 where we want for ourselves. Now we etch it into 0:54:19.920 --> 0:54:22.520 stone tablets and piously here to them forever like the 0:54:22.560 --> 0:54:25.160 Ten Commandments. Like nah, you know, the good life is 0:54:25.160 --> 0:54:27.320 supposed to be flexible when the video is what responding 0:54:27.400 --> 0:54:31.000 to your conditions, the conditions of the community or ecology, etcetera, 0:54:31.520 --> 0:54:33.799 and really redefineing what it means to go to live 0:54:33.840 --> 0:54:36.879 a good life continuously, you know, in response to change 0:54:36.880 --> 0:54:42.439 and circumstances, because you know changes life. Um, of course 0:54:42.520 --> 0:54:46.000 not is this idea to good life quote unquote backward 0:54:46.680 --> 0:54:51.000 concept so problematic fram in and of itself. But um 0:54:51.200 --> 0:54:56.919 sometimes you have to use problematic shortcuts to community kids effectively. 0:54:57.520 --> 0:55:01.920 But the yea when revideo is not like an invitation 0:55:02.120 --> 0:55:06.120 to return to some idea like past or ide like 0:55:06.520 --> 0:55:09.520 non past, you like nonexistent world that people are sort 0:55:09.520 --> 0:55:12.520 of mentally constructed, as in the case of a lot 0:55:12.560 --> 0:55:16.040 of these romanticizations you see on social media. Um, be 0:55:16.120 --> 0:55:19.320 in video is not like some kind of religion with 0:55:19.440 --> 0:55:23.560 its own rules and functions. But it's and it's not 0:55:23.680 --> 0:55:26.560 Also it's not imposing that you must become a home 0:55:26.600 --> 0:55:29.000 insteader or a forager, you must live in a rural 0:55:29.040 --> 0:55:34.200 community to live a good life. There's more possibilities yet unrealized. UM. 0:55:34.280 --> 0:55:36.480 And it should be something that is, it should be 0:55:36.520 --> 0:55:41.320 considered something that is undergoing a constant construction and reproduction process. 0:55:42.719 --> 0:55:44.800 And that's I think way of the global potential that 0:55:44.880 --> 0:55:48.320 when review a lize UM. You know, that's why I 0:55:48.400 --> 0:55:51.799 think there's viral potential for it. I mean, of course, 0:55:52.920 --> 0:55:54.279 when you look at a lot of the things that 0:55:54.480 --> 0:55:58.680 end up dominating the social media news cycle, it's a 0:55:58.680 --> 0:56:02.920 lot of negativity UM dominating current discourse right now, I 0:56:03.000 --> 0:56:10.440 think is the topic of masculinity and UM, particularly the 0:56:10.880 --> 0:56:18.880 prevalence of ah Andrew teats and you know, UM, you 0:56:19.000 --> 0:56:23.120 also have the constantly bubbling under the surface existence of 0:56:23.239 --> 0:56:28.440 in cells UM and so and then you go on TikTok. 0:56:28.640 --> 0:56:31.680 I don't know if you go on TikTok, James, I 0:56:31.840 --> 0:56:38.960 don't know. That's the point I would just like anymore. Yeah, 0:56:39.360 --> 0:56:41.000 I should have made that decision, But I mean I 0:56:41.080 --> 0:56:45.279 kind of like TikTok because UM, I don't know how 0:56:45.360 --> 0:56:48.120 other people are curiats in there their fo you pages, 0:56:48.160 --> 0:56:51.320 but by four you pages. Um a place I enjoy 0:56:51.600 --> 0:56:53.160 being out a bit too much, which is why I 0:56:53.239 --> 0:56:55.920 have like limits on my phone to prevent me from 0:56:55.960 --> 0:56:59.160 staying on TikTok for too long. But yeah, it's a 0:56:59.200 --> 0:57:01.120 place that I enjoy way and um. You see a 0:57:01.120 --> 0:57:03.640 lot of trends come and go on TikTok right now. 0:57:03.800 --> 0:57:06.880 The big thing is like Niche stock and core core um, 0:57:08.400 --> 0:57:13.319 which I know is is probably Greek to you, yes, um, 0:57:13.960 --> 0:57:15.600 but in that general v and if you were to 0:57:15.680 --> 0:57:18.600 see what those trends were, I think you get a 0:57:18.680 --> 0:57:21.440 sense of when I'm talking about Niche shock and Corko 0:57:21.520 --> 0:57:23.600 and then as well, so it seems to be an 0:57:23.640 --> 0:57:30.080 attempt to um rebrand the idea of Sigma um and 0:57:30.160 --> 0:57:32.760 the Sigma male. It started off as a very you know, 0:57:33.160 --> 0:57:36.120 patriarchal thing, and then I've seen a couple of different 0:57:36.160 --> 0:57:40.360 creators who who didn't a sort of an ironic or 0:57:40.360 --> 0:57:44.480 a post ironic sense um as a sort of a meme, 0:57:44.760 --> 0:57:46.919 because it became a meme to make fun of people 0:57:46.960 --> 0:57:50.640 who take it seriously. Um. And then from that that 0:57:50.680 --> 0:57:54.120 sort of mumification of it, people said reclaimed the tomb 0:57:54.920 --> 0:57:57.920 um and then it became a sort of you see, um, 0:57:58.240 --> 0:58:03.080 you see like a video where I, um does something 0:58:03.200 --> 0:58:07.440 polite or something, you know, shiver us something kind and 0:58:07.480 --> 0:58:11.560 the comments are like, um, typical sigma, true sigma, this 0:58:11.680 --> 0:58:15.880 is what true signal looks like. Kind of um. So 0:58:16.080 --> 0:58:18.400 I think it's just a national aspect that they fluid 0:58:18.440 --> 0:58:20.040 it to you the Internet, the fickles of the interne 0:58:20.080 --> 0:58:23.600 because I'm sure they're still they have the misogynistic Sigma people, 0:58:23.680 --> 0:58:28.040 they still exist. But then there's also people who memes 0:58:28.120 --> 0:58:32.400 themselves into a brand of Sigma that's kind of a 0:58:32.560 --> 0:58:39.840 way pseudo positive masculinity. It's kind of interesting. Um. I'll 0:58:39.840 --> 0:58:43.400 continue to do my TikTok anthropological research and and you know, 0:58:43.440 --> 0:58:48.600 discuss my findings as this situation develops. But in that 0:58:49.040 --> 0:58:54.880 vein of in that vein of comunification, and those are developments, 0:58:54.920 --> 0:58:56.800 I think there is a potential of wend Vera to 0:58:56.840 --> 0:58:59.480 become a global phenomenon, to have that Google potential, to 0:58:59.520 --> 0:59:02.720 have a global reach because and then there's something in 0:59:02.800 --> 0:59:05.600 it for the people. The there's also an anti work 0:59:05.720 --> 0:59:09.560 current present in a lot of TikTok trends, so you know, 0:59:09.600 --> 0:59:15.480 it's it's something too and again again, I see there's 0:59:15.480 --> 0:59:18.000 an anti currency or the TikTok trends, but those are 0:59:18.040 --> 0:59:21.200 the TikTok trends. I ain't being presented with the post 0:59:21.280 --> 0:59:25.280 ironic rebrandification or whatever. Sigma is something my for you 0:59:25.360 --> 0:59:27.800 pee has given me. It's not necessarily reflective of the 0:59:27.920 --> 0:59:30.680 entirety of reality. And that's the scary part of the Internet, right, 0:59:30.800 --> 0:59:35.400 Like you're not seeing the full reality, You're seeing algorithmically 0:59:35.480 --> 0:59:39.960 produced version and skewed version of reality. Yeah, yeah, it's 0:59:39.960 --> 0:59:43.000 interesting to me, how like, like most people I encounter 0:59:43.080 --> 0:59:44.960 on a daily basis will not know what will where 0:59:45.080 --> 0:59:47.760 me and marras and like if I look at my 0:59:47.840 --> 0:59:51.800 Twitter page right now, it's just all like half of it. 0:59:51.920 --> 0:59:54.080 It's in Burmese, you know, and there's lots of people 0:59:54.120 --> 0:59:57.040 I follow and that that's like my reality. But yeah, 0:59:57.720 --> 1:00:00.560 sort of. Then I get really frustrated when when people 1:00:00.600 --> 1:00:04.800 don't have a clue what's going on there exactly exactly, 1:00:05.360 --> 1:00:08.040 it's it's it's it's can't tricky. It's kind tricky because 1:00:09.680 --> 1:00:12.520 you really in terms that they really get a sense of, 1:00:13.360 --> 1:00:15.640 how you know, in moments like those where you confront 1:00:15.720 --> 1:00:18.720 that in real life, it's like okay, So like my 1:00:19.040 --> 1:00:21.920 my possession of reality is like slightly skewed by the Internet, 1:00:22.040 --> 1:00:26.720 you know, yeah, in ways that I am aware and 1:00:26.880 --> 1:00:29.360 not aware of, in ways that other people are aware 1:00:29.440 --> 1:00:32.640 not aware of. So that's interesting. We're back to when review, 1:00:32.960 --> 1:00:34.920 right when we view. I think it is also like 1:00:35.000 --> 1:00:37.360 a path for decolonization, you know, sort of a way 1:00:37.400 --> 1:00:39.120 to let go of a lot of the Western norms 1:00:39.200 --> 1:00:43.000 and impositions and speech and dress and labor and lifestyle 1:00:43.080 --> 1:00:46.360 and knowledge and social norms and relationships and ceteral and 1:00:46.400 --> 1:00:48.600 adopting ways of life that are count for our cultures 1:00:48.640 --> 1:00:53.640 and conditions free of those mental I think that it's 1:00:53.680 --> 1:00:58.040 the power of when reviere. So I guess another question arises, 1:00:58.800 --> 1:01:01.720 who or where, oh when did when review come from? 1:01:02.680 --> 1:01:06.120 And so the radical questioning that birthedpen Revere was made 1:01:06.160 --> 1:01:10.400 possible within several indigenous traditions in South America, which, as 1:01:10.440 --> 1:01:14.880 I said, culturally lack tic concepts of developmental progress. And 1:01:14.960 --> 1:01:17.960 so the contribution of indigenous knowledge brend Revere continues to 1:01:18.000 --> 1:01:22.240 be the sort of critical threat. Associated values and experiences 1:01:22.280 --> 1:01:26.720 and practices and worldviews of interview already existed in some 1:01:26.960 --> 1:01:32.680 form before the arrival of um European conquistadors, but they 1:01:32.720 --> 1:01:37.240 were of the process of qualization, silence, and marginalized and 1:01:37.320 --> 1:01:42.360 even openly opposed. Brendeverea is part of a long leg 1:01:42.440 --> 1:01:47.520 you see, long quest along pursuits of alternative lifestyles forged 1:01:48.080 --> 1:01:53.880 from the passionate battles of indigenous peoples and nations seeking 1:01:55.120 --> 1:01:58.960 new ways of life, seeking freedom from the Latin America 1:01:59.040 --> 1:02:03.280 and the quintessential American oliga called nation state. Brutish is 1:02:03.360 --> 1:02:08.040 of course rooted in clunialism and new liberalism, and so 1:02:09.120 --> 1:02:13.480 we are seeing through renvivere within renvie outside of and review. 1:02:13.520 --> 1:02:20.160 Adjacent to ren review um utopias in the making, the imagination, 1:02:20.200 --> 1:02:22.960 the imagining of utopias of the Andes and of the 1:02:23.000 --> 1:02:28.080 Amazon that are shaping discourses, shaping political projects, that are 1:02:28.080 --> 1:02:32.200 shaping social and cultural and economic practice. The good life 1:02:32.240 --> 1:02:34.720 been revere is not something that is unique to Latin America. 1:02:34.760 --> 1:02:37.800 Of course, it has been practiced in many different epochs 1:02:37.880 --> 1:02:41.800 and regions of this Earth. It's been known by many 1:02:41.920 --> 1:02:44.640 different names. The concept has been known by many different names. 1:02:45.240 --> 1:02:49.560 In Ecuador, it's known as suma um, which is a 1:02:49.680 --> 1:02:53.520 Quechua wording for a fullness of life and community together 1:02:53.680 --> 1:02:57.360 to the persons in nature and believia The iyemarra concept 1:02:57.440 --> 1:03:01.520 for it is called suma kamana in the Mapuche in Chile, 1:03:01.800 --> 1:03:04.480 and the Guarani in Paraguay, and the Kuda and Panama, 1:03:04.520 --> 1:03:08.400 and the chu Aqua and Ecuadorian Amazon, the Maya and 1:03:08.480 --> 1:03:12.360 Guatemala and Chiapas Mexico, and of course the African to 1:03:12.840 --> 1:03:18.320 Ubuntu and the Indian concept of saraje. They are all 1:03:18.400 --> 1:03:21.560 these sorts of threads of what a good life, good 1:03:21.640 --> 1:03:26.240 life and community, radical ecological democracy and community. All of 1:03:26.320 --> 1:03:32.040 these sort of concepts sort of threaded within developing diffront 1:03:32.320 --> 1:03:37.520 in different forms in different contexts. However, UM the concept 1:03:38.240 --> 1:03:41.920 has also been adopted in some sense by certain states, 1:03:42.080 --> 1:03:48.840 most notably Bolivia and Ecuador. Recently, Bolivia, you know, rewrote 1:03:48.880 --> 1:03:56.160 its constitution um establishing itself as a flury national state, 1:03:57.200 --> 1:04:01.800 and they've taken it to what they quality the orban um. 1:04:02.120 --> 1:04:08.320 They're trying to basically propose economic model that accommodates various 1:04:08.720 --> 1:04:14.280 diverse cultural origins. In Ecuador, UM that conceptual freework is 1:04:14.280 --> 1:04:16.880 a bit different. They take one vera and they use 1:04:16.920 --> 1:04:19.160 it as a sort of described as a set of rights, 1:04:20.640 --> 1:04:24.440 rights to shelter, to health, to education, to foods, the environment. 1:04:25.160 --> 1:04:28.520 So it's less of an ethical principle, more of a 1:04:28.800 --> 1:04:32.880 complex set of rights that are also found in Western 1:04:32.960 --> 1:04:38.800 traditions but also include, uh, you know, the the right 1:04:38.960 --> 1:04:45.040 to freedom, participation, communities, to protection, and to nature. Part 1:04:45.120 --> 1:04:46.800 of that recognition of the right to nature and the 1:04:47.000 --> 1:04:50.080 fundamental rights of water has led to the banning of 1:04:50.160 --> 1:04:54.400 any form of privatization of water um, and also the 1:04:54.520 --> 1:05:03.520 promotion of leaving crude oil in Ecuadorian Amazon blew the ground. Um. However, 1:05:03.560 --> 1:05:05.600 I feel like I need to point out that I 1:05:05.640 --> 1:05:09.840 don't believe the state is compatible with the essence of 1:05:09.920 --> 1:05:14.240 when vere with the practice of when vere um, and 1:05:14.360 --> 1:05:19.680 so the use of those concepts and state propaganda uh 1:05:19.840 --> 1:05:24.720 in state rebranding efforts unnecessarily encouraging to me, doesn't necessarily 1:05:24.800 --> 1:05:27.280 make such states the power corn so they would paint 1:05:27.320 --> 1:05:30.800 themselves to be because to me, when vie can only 1:05:30.880 --> 1:05:34.160 really be grassroots concepts. So I think we must be 1:05:34.880 --> 1:05:38.320 careful of fall into that trap of accepting uh you know, 1:05:38.360 --> 1:05:45.800 state propaganda on the good life um, you know, compromising 1:05:46.440 --> 1:05:48.840 the concept and allowing it to be co opted or 1:05:48.920 --> 1:05:53.480 water down. As I previously noted, I think there's a 1:05:54.920 --> 1:05:57.880 major overlap between concept of de growth and the idea 1:05:57.880 --> 1:06:00.280 of when Revere and both agree that one of the 1:06:00.320 --> 1:06:04.880 fundamental problems is, you know, this idea, this constant commercialization 1:06:05.040 --> 1:06:09.400 of societal fabric and of nature of criticism of capitalism, 1:06:09.600 --> 1:06:13.200 this criticism of the way that progress felt an economic 1:06:13.240 --> 1:06:17.760 growth understood and implemented um. And so they almost they 1:06:17.800 --> 1:06:19.840 sort of complement each other, right, because I think a 1:06:19.920 --> 1:06:22.400 criticism people who have of the growth is that as 1:06:22.440 --> 1:06:25.560 this destructive thing, as it's negative thing, as negative freemen. 1:06:26.080 --> 1:06:27.880 And so in a sense, when Vere and the growth 1:06:28.000 --> 1:06:32.000 can sort of be coupled, the growth as the couldn't 1:06:32.040 --> 1:06:36.600 quote missile wood destructive. Well, Gwen Vivere is you know, 1:06:36.760 --> 1:06:42.280 presenting a constructive alternative. As you know, we attempt to progress, 1:06:42.400 --> 1:06:47.640 to move away from capitalism, transitions and new systems. There's 1:06:47.640 --> 1:06:49.120 a lot to learn with have a lot we can 1:06:49.200 --> 1:06:52.200 learn from various non capitalist practices around the world. And 1:06:52.280 --> 1:06:56.400 I think gen vivie um is a concept that really 1:06:56.480 --> 1:06:58.960 tries to look at the way is a way of 1:06:59.040 --> 1:07:03.360 harmoniously quite sisted as humans in our environment Um and 1:07:03.440 --> 1:07:05.400 the way is that you know, a good life can 1:07:05.440 --> 1:07:12.440 be combined with the growth efforts. There's also a measure 1:07:12.480 --> 1:07:25.040 of fluidity present in green vivere Um that seeks balance socially, ecologically, politically, economically. 1:07:25.880 --> 1:07:32.160 UM encompasses and encompasses within that balance people, plans, and animals. 1:07:33.040 --> 1:07:39.360 There's not separate nature from society as found in classical 1:07:39.520 --> 1:07:44.680 Western dualism, and that sort of perspective is necessary if 1:07:44.680 --> 1:07:47.520 we were to move beyond the exploitation of nature for 1:07:47.560 --> 1:07:50.760 the propos of accumulating capital cell that has really placed 1:07:50.840 --> 1:07:53.440 us in this mess and even in that and recognized 1:07:53.480 --> 1:07:55.520 and that we need to move beyond exploitation of nature 1:07:55.960 --> 1:07:58.880 baked into that because we are part of nature. It's 1:07:58.880 --> 1:08:02.600 a recognition that we need to stuff exploiting humans. They 1:08:02.640 --> 1:08:07.120 need to recognize human beings as part of a community, 1:08:07.320 --> 1:08:10.400 that we are not just as my individuals, that we 1:08:10.480 --> 1:08:13.120 are in communities, that we must be part of community 1:08:13.240 --> 1:08:16.920 used that our community is the people within them and 1:08:18.800 --> 1:08:23.559 the lands we are part of must cooperate in harmony. 1:08:24.080 --> 1:08:26.800 I think there's a challenge to one review. Of course 1:08:27.120 --> 1:08:29.360 what the video is not restricted to the countryside, but 1:08:29.479 --> 1:08:31.880 it did it did originate there. UM. I think the 1:08:32.000 --> 1:08:35.880 challenge one review is to confront today's urban spaces where 1:08:35.960 --> 1:08:40.040 much of humanity's population lives UM, to find ways to 1:08:40.120 --> 1:08:45.639 deal with environment respectively and solidarity in an urban setting, 1:08:45.800 --> 1:08:49.559 to find to conceptualize a good life for and in cities. 1:08:50.080 --> 1:08:52.680 We can't exactly expect everybody to move to the countryside, 1:08:53.200 --> 1:08:57.080 nor should everybody, UM, and so we need to find 1:08:57.120 --> 1:09:03.520 ways that city life, urban I life UM can be reconstructed. 1:09:04.760 --> 1:09:07.479 And so one potential sort of way that that has 1:09:07.560 --> 1:09:12.920 manifested is through the Transition Towns movement, which you can 1:09:13.560 --> 1:09:15.559 look more and to have something that interests you where 1:09:15.600 --> 1:09:19.559 people are basically attempting to taking truth of their communities 1:09:19.560 --> 1:09:22.519 and to survive the challenge that is climate change and 1:09:22.680 --> 1:09:27.920 to create you know, sustainable economies and ecologies. Wherefore they 1:09:28.000 --> 1:09:32.120 find themselves movements. It can be found in many different countries. 1:09:32.479 --> 1:09:34.719 You know, you might even find it in your area 1:09:34.920 --> 1:09:37.559 and your country. Look it up, UM, and it has 1:09:37.560 --> 1:09:39.920 a lot in common with the concept of Ween Revere. 1:09:40.360 --> 1:09:42.200 Like I said, like I feel that they're selling different 1:09:42.240 --> 1:09:46.000 movements and ideas and philosophies, you know, sort of with 1:09:46.120 --> 1:09:50.080 the same ideas that seemed to be feel like they're 1:09:50.080 --> 1:09:55.519 on the rise. Ultimately, I believe wend Revere is highly 1:09:56.600 --> 1:10:01.200 h subversive. I believe it looks not to return to 1:10:01.280 --> 1:10:05.160 the past or to you know, get caught up in 1:10:05.560 --> 1:10:09.720 any kind of strict rules or positions. It seeks a 1:10:09.800 --> 1:10:12.800 good life. It seeks to oppose cleanism and its consequences, 1:10:13.040 --> 1:10:17.040 to encourage new, more sustainable ways of living drawn from 1:10:17.120 --> 1:10:23.759 old examples and models, and to really create horizontal society, 1:10:24.240 --> 1:10:28.479 a cooperative society, to develop self management instead of new 1:10:28.560 --> 1:10:33.000 forms of top down governance. UM the one that rejects 1:10:33.080 --> 1:10:35.519 both the market and the state as solutions to our 1:10:35.560 --> 1:10:39.880 issues and looks to ourselves. One that looks one that 1:10:39.960 --> 1:10:42.720 rejects the markets in the state, has potential solutions, and 1:10:43.800 --> 1:10:48.879 looks to ourselves. The idea of development is an almost 1:10:49.080 --> 1:10:54.479 a zombie category, as some writers have described it. It's 1:10:54.479 --> 1:10:59.080 supposed to be dead and yet it lives. And so 1:10:59.280 --> 1:11:04.840 gwen Vivere provides an opportunity to move away from development 1:11:05.200 --> 1:11:11.599 and look towards when it recognizes that all may never 1:11:11.720 --> 1:11:16.400 create a perfect life, we can create a good life. 1:11:17.520 --> 1:11:20.120 That's it thanks here, and that's really interesting. I like 1:11:20.240 --> 1:11:24.600 that you can find me on YouTube at Andrewidsum on 1:11:24.760 --> 1:11:27.960 to dot com slash and is called saying Drew, and 1:11:28.680 --> 1:11:30.679 if you're so inclined, you can support me on picture 1:11:30.760 --> 1:11:34.920 dot com slash saying Drew. This has been Andrew at 1:11:35.360 --> 1:11:53.320 happen here with James signing off, Hello and welcome to 1:11:53.640 --> 1:11:57.560 it could happen here. This is Sharne and today I 1:11:57.640 --> 1:12:00.640 will be talking to you about the series of devastating 1:12:00.680 --> 1:12:03.559 earthquakes that have happened in Turkey and Syria this week. 1:12:04.680 --> 1:12:08.200 I am recording this the afternoon of Tuesday, February seven. 1:12:08.960 --> 1:12:12.320 I am giving you that disclaimer because the numbers keep 1:12:12.439 --> 1:12:16.200 changing as far as the casualties and the death toll goes. 1:12:17.520 --> 1:12:19.320 So if the numbers are different by the time this 1:12:19.439 --> 1:12:23.560 comes out, which they probably will be, that is why. Unfortunately, 1:12:23.680 --> 1:12:28.559 that is the nature of disasters like this. So there's 1:12:28.560 --> 1:12:31.040 nothing much that we can do. But let's talk about 1:12:31.040 --> 1:12:35.560 the earthquakes themselves. First. The initial earthquake was a magnitude 1:12:35.600 --> 1:12:38.519 of seven point eight and it happened in southeastern Turkey 1:12:38.600 --> 1:12:41.439 early on Monday morning their local time, and it was 1:12:41.479 --> 1:12:45.479 followed by magnitude seven point five earthquake only nine hours later. 1:12:46.000 --> 1:12:51.519 Amidst several aftershocks. All aftershocks are individual earthquakes, but as 1:12:51.600 --> 1:12:54.000 long as they are not stronger than the original quake, 1:12:54.520 --> 1:12:58.080 they are considered after shocks. But the seven point five 1:12:58.160 --> 1:13:01.280 magnitude tremor that happened after the seven point eight one 1:13:01.640 --> 1:13:04.559 only point three of a difference. It was an unusually 1:13:04.640 --> 1:13:10.840 strong aftershock. According to seismologists, aftershocks are typically about one 1:13:10.920 --> 1:13:14.760 point to magnitude units lower than the original earthquake, so 1:13:15.040 --> 1:13:18.160 if there was a magnitude eight earthquake, the aftershock would 1:13:18.200 --> 1:13:21.160 be in magnitude seven. So this was all a very rare, 1:13:21.360 --> 1:13:26.120 disastrous occurrence. The second earthquake was a shock notable all 1:13:26.240 --> 1:13:28.640 on its own, as well as in relation to the 1:13:28.680 --> 1:13:33.120 primary earthquake. As of Tuesday morning, according to the United 1:13:33.200 --> 1:13:37.080 States Geological Survey, at least one and twenty five aftershocks 1:13:37.160 --> 1:13:40.640 measuring four point zero or greater have occurred since the 1:13:40.720 --> 1:13:44.439 initial seven point eight one. The frequency in magnitude of 1:13:44.520 --> 1:13:48.040 the aftershocks are decreasing, as is expected as we get 1:13:48.120 --> 1:13:51.200 further out from the time of the original earthquake. However, 1:13:51.600 --> 1:13:55.240 five point zero and six point zero aftershocks are still possible, 1:13:55.680 --> 1:13:58.280 and they bring a risk of additional damage to structures 1:13:58.320 --> 1:14:02.160 that are compromised from the original earthquake. This brings a 1:14:02.280 --> 1:14:06.960 continued threat to rescue teams and survivors. The aftershocks stretched 1:14:07.040 --> 1:14:09.760 for more than four d kilometers or about two fifty 1:14:09.840 --> 1:14:12.960 miles along the fault zone that ruptured in southern Turkey. 1:14:13.600 --> 1:14:16.479 It stretches from the Mediterranean Sea off the northern coast 1:14:16.520 --> 1:14:21.479 of Syria up to the province of Malatia. The initial 1:14:21.520 --> 1:14:24.760 tremor was centered about twenty miles from a major city 1:14:24.840 --> 1:14:28.920 and provincial capital, Gauziantep and seismologists said that this first 1:14:29.000 --> 1:14:32.280 earthquake was one of the largest ever recorded in Turkey's history. 1:14:33.439 --> 1:14:36.439 It was also the region's strongest earthquake. In nearly a 1:14:36.560 --> 1:14:41.479 century nine, an earthquake of the same magnitude killed thirty 1:14:41.600 --> 1:14:46.120 thousand people. Earthquakes of this magnitude are rare, with fewer 1:14:46.200 --> 1:14:49.479 than five occurring each year on average anywhere in the world. 1:14:50.160 --> 1:14:53.320 Seven earthquakes with magnitude seven point zero or greater have 1:14:53.479 --> 1:14:56.600 struck Turkey in the past twenty five years, but the 1:14:56.680 --> 1:15:00.479 one that occurred on Monday it's the most powerful. The 1:15:00.520 --> 1:15:04.799 effects were also felt in the neighboring countries of Cyprus, Lebanon, Israel, 1:15:04.880 --> 1:15:07.639 and Egypt, to name a few. But there's a reason 1:15:07.680 --> 1:15:11.160 why earthquakes are so frequent in Turkey. Turkey sits on 1:15:11.320 --> 1:15:15.360 fault lines, and these earthquakes in the region have caused 1:15:15.479 --> 1:15:19.320 deadly landslides in the past. Turkey is situated on two 1:15:19.600 --> 1:15:23.800 massive tectonic plates, the Arabian and the Eurasian, and these 1:15:23.920 --> 1:15:28.599 meat underneath Turkey's southeastern provinces. Along this fault line, about 1:15:28.720 --> 1:15:31.799 hundred miles from one side or the other, the earth slipped. 1:15:33.080 --> 1:15:36.360 Seismologists refer to this event as a strike slip, where 1:15:36.400 --> 1:15:38.599 the plates are touching and all of a sudden they 1:15:38.640 --> 1:15:42.400 slide sideways. In a strike slip, the plates are moving 1:15:42.439 --> 1:15:46.960 horizontally rather than vertically. This matters because the buildings don't 1:15:47.040 --> 1:15:50.000 want to go back and forth, and then the secondary 1:15:50.040 --> 1:15:53.679 waves begin to go back and forth as well. Because 1:15:53.720 --> 1:15:56.960 of the nature of this seismic event, the aftershocks could 1:15:57.080 --> 1:16:00.960 last for weeks and months. I have had to update 1:16:01.200 --> 1:16:05.800 the death toll many many times in preparing this episode. 1:16:06.600 --> 1:16:09.840 I am probably going to have to update it many 1:16:09.960 --> 1:16:14.120 many more times before this comes out, but as of now, 1:16:14.400 --> 1:16:17.960 when I am recording this, the evening of Tuesday, February seven, 1:16:18.720 --> 1:16:22.360 the death toll is over seven thousand and nine hundred 1:16:22.640 --> 1:16:27.000 deaths in Turkey and Syria combined, and it's expected to 1:16:27.240 --> 1:16:30.760 rise significantly more in Syria as these days go by. 1:16:32.080 --> 1:16:35.280 The exact number that is being reported is seven thousand, 1:16:35.400 --> 1:16:39.280 nine hundred and twenty six people. The Syrian Civil Defense 1:16:39.439 --> 1:16:42.040 a k a. The White Helmets said that the number 1:16:42.080 --> 1:16:45.760 of fatalities and rebel held areas in northwest Syria rose 1:16:45.840 --> 1:16:48.200 to a thousand, two hundred and twenty and the number 1:16:48.240 --> 1:16:51.560 of injured people rose to two thousand, six hundred, and 1:16:51.680 --> 1:16:54.880 these figures are expected to rise significantly due to the 1:16:54.960 --> 1:16:58.960 presence of hundreds of families under the rubble. The White 1:16:59.000 --> 1:17:02.720 Helmets said quote, our teams continue search and rescue operations 1:17:02.760 --> 1:17:06.200 in difficult circumstances, and they described a tally of more 1:17:06.280 --> 1:17:09.120 than four hundred collapsed buildings and more than one thousand, 1:17:09.200 --> 1:17:12.479 three hundred partially collapsed buildings and thousands of others that 1:17:12.520 --> 1:17:16.559 were damaged. Additionally, at least eight hundred and twelve deaths 1:17:16.640 --> 1:17:20.879 have been confirmed in government controlled parts of Syria. In Turkey, 1:17:21.080 --> 1:17:23.719 at least five thousand, eight hundred and ninety four people 1:17:23.760 --> 1:17:26.599 are dead and thirty four thousand, eight hundred and ten 1:17:26.680 --> 1:17:30.839 are injured, and this number is only going to continue 1:17:30.920 --> 1:17:35.280 to rise. I don't know when it will stop. Maybe 1:17:35.320 --> 1:17:38.840 a week from now, maybe a month. I don't know 1:17:38.880 --> 1:17:41.560 how many more people will be unaccounted for and not 1:17:41.720 --> 1:17:45.599 reported about. But this is what we have for now. 1:17:46.439 --> 1:17:51.160 You've probably seen pictures or videos of the devastation that 1:17:51.320 --> 1:17:54.280 is happening. In all the destruction. There have been really 1:17:54.360 --> 1:17:57.880 disturbing images of the ground literally just opening up in 1:17:58.040 --> 1:18:01.400 two and as if you can see the core of 1:18:01.479 --> 1:18:05.920 the earth, and other videos show the collapsed buildings and 1:18:06.280 --> 1:18:10.160 the rubble that rescuers are trying to dig underneath to 1:18:10.240 --> 1:18:14.479 find survivors. This is one story out of many, but 1:18:14.960 --> 1:18:18.400 a newborn baby was reportedly rescued from the rubble in Syria, 1:18:18.720 --> 1:18:21.719 and there is a video of this. A baby girl 1:18:22.160 --> 1:18:25.599 was rescued from the rubble of her home. Her umbilical 1:18:25.680 --> 1:18:28.200 cord was still attached to her mother when she was found, 1:18:29.120 --> 1:18:32.080 and her mother is believed to have died after giving birth. 1:18:33.280 --> 1:18:35.519 One of the men that found her said, we heard 1:18:35.560 --> 1:18:38.679 a voice while we were digging. We cleared the dust 1:18:38.800 --> 1:18:41.519 and found the baby with the umbilical cord intact, so 1:18:41.640 --> 1:18:43.799 we cut it and my cousin took her to the hospital. 1:18:44.960 --> 1:18:48.280 The girl is receiving treatment at a children's hospital and 1:18:48.400 --> 1:18:52.440 as of now, she is stable, but arrived with bruises, lacerations, 1:18:52.479 --> 1:18:56.439 and hypothermia, and she's the sole survivor of her immediate family. 1:18:56.960 --> 1:18:59.400 They lived in a five story apartment building that was 1:18:59.520 --> 1:19:03.080 leveled by the quake. And again, this is one example 1:19:03.560 --> 1:19:06.920 of the stories of thousands of people. And I think 1:19:07.040 --> 1:19:10.479 what's important to remember is that even after someone is rescued, 1:19:11.080 --> 1:19:15.200 they're not exactly home free. They can have many injuries 1:19:15.479 --> 1:19:18.120 or hypothermia because it's very cold over there right now, 1:19:18.840 --> 1:19:22.240 and their recovery is going to be brutal. And I 1:19:22.320 --> 1:19:23.880 feel like that's a good thing to keep in mind 1:19:23.960 --> 1:19:27.240 when you hear the word rescue, because the trauma doesn't 1:19:27.240 --> 1:19:31.479 stop there. Almost six thousand buildings have been destroyed by 1:19:31.520 --> 1:19:36.160 this earthquake, and this includes residential buildings, hospitals, schools, and 1:19:36.240 --> 1:19:39.559 the damage is even more severe in northwestern Syria because 1:19:39.840 --> 1:19:42.400 it had been in the process of attempting to reconstruct 1:19:42.439 --> 1:19:47.760 itself since the Syrian War started in Thankfully, members of 1:19:47.800 --> 1:19:51.280 the international community have stepped up to coordinate relief efforts 1:19:51.320 --> 1:19:56.120 to Turkey and Syria after the powerful earthquakes. However, sending 1:19:56.200 --> 1:19:59.040 aid to Syria is going to be difficult because there's 1:19:59.120 --> 1:20:01.080 no central guf are meant to take care of the 1:20:01.240 --> 1:20:06.479 multisectorial response. The Turkish government said quote, we do not 1:20:06.640 --> 1:20:08.760 know where the number of dead and injured can go. 1:20:09.920 --> 1:20:13.720 In Syria, rescue workers used headlamps and floodlights to work 1:20:13.800 --> 1:20:17.600 throughout the night. Many Syrian war refugees are also in 1:20:17.640 --> 1:20:21.080 the quick stricken area of Turkey. Turkey has taken in 1:20:21.320 --> 1:20:25.639 three point six million Syrian refugees, more than any other country, 1:20:26.240 --> 1:20:28.879 and this is according to the u N Refugee Agency, 1:20:29.160 --> 1:20:32.360 which runs one of its largest operations in Gaussian Tepe, 1:20:32.600 --> 1:20:36.160 where the first earthquake happened and again. Videos shared on 1:20:36.280 --> 1:20:38.960 social media from Turkey and across the border in Syria 1:20:39.120 --> 1:20:43.080 have showed destroyed buildings and rescue crews searching through piles 1:20:43.160 --> 1:20:46.479 of rebel for survivors. Some people fled their homes in 1:20:46.560 --> 1:20:49.639 the rain and took shelter in their cars, and governments 1:20:49.680 --> 1:20:54.080 around the world quickly responded to Turkey's request for international assistance, 1:20:54.840 --> 1:20:57.360 many of them deploying rescue teams and offers of aid, 1:20:57.479 --> 1:21:01.760 which I will get into in a bit. The World 1:21:01.840 --> 1:21:05.400 Health Organization warned that the number of casualties are likely 1:21:05.479 --> 1:21:09.280 to increase as much as eight times as rescuers are 1:21:09.320 --> 1:21:13.920 finding more victims in the rubble. Rescuers have been combing 1:21:13.960 --> 1:21:17.160 through mountains of rubble and freezing and snowy conditions to 1:21:17.240 --> 1:21:20.840 find survivors, and these freezing conditions will leave many people 1:21:20.920 --> 1:21:26.160 without shelter, adding to the dangers. It is freezing over there, 1:21:27.040 --> 1:21:30.599 and that obviously only makes things more difficult and more 1:21:30.640 --> 1:21:36.000 painful and more complicated. And we always see the same 1:21:36.120 --> 1:21:39.799 thing with earthquakes unfortunately, which is that the initial reports 1:21:39.880 --> 1:21:41.840 of the numbers of people who have died or have 1:21:41.960 --> 1:21:45.879 been injured will increase quite significantly in the week that follows. 1:21:47.320 --> 1:21:50.400 The situation on the ground seems to be more disastrous 1:21:50.479 --> 1:21:53.320 in Syria, and this is according to the country director 1:21:53.400 --> 1:21:57.000 in Ghazian Tep for the Syrian American Medical Society Foundation. 1:21:58.080 --> 1:22:01.759 He said it's a disaster stiss situation in both Turkey 1:22:01.840 --> 1:22:06.080 and Syria, although Syria is more disastrous. Over a decade 1:22:06.120 --> 1:22:09.839 of conflict in Northern Syria has fostered a poor economic situation, 1:22:09.920 --> 1:22:12.759 to say the least, making it very difficult to respond 1:22:12.800 --> 1:22:16.639 to the current crisis. In contrast, the situation in Turkey 1:22:16.760 --> 1:22:21.120 is coordinated through a very well settled government and Northern 1:22:21.200 --> 1:22:24.640 Syria unfortunately has no government that gives a shit about it. 1:22:25.160 --> 1:22:28.360 In Northern Syria, most of the services and help are 1:22:28.400 --> 1:22:30.840 provided by n g o s and this is due 1:22:30.920 --> 1:22:34.080 to a long term lack of investments in early recovery 1:22:34.120 --> 1:22:37.759 and infrastructure. One of these groups again is the White Helmets. 1:22:37.960 --> 1:22:41.519 They were one of the main saviors or helpers ever 1:22:41.640 --> 1:22:44.160 since the Syrians Civil war started in eleven They have 1:22:44.280 --> 1:22:46.400 been on the ground helping and they are made up 1:22:46.439 --> 1:22:49.559 of Syrian volunteers. And I think that's important to keep 1:22:49.600 --> 1:22:53.280 in mind because many Syrians have relied on each other 1:22:53.479 --> 1:22:55.920 and each other alone because they didn't receive help in 1:22:56.000 --> 1:22:58.840 the past. And I'm going to get into later how 1:22:58.960 --> 1:23:03.200 much the country's civil war has made things exponentially worse. 1:23:04.520 --> 1:23:08.000 Several parts in northwestern Syria, including the city of Islab, 1:23:08.120 --> 1:23:12.759 are still controlled by anti government rebels. This representative added 1:23:12.960 --> 1:23:16.439 that they evacuated to maturity hospitals because of the physical 1:23:16.560 --> 1:23:20.080 impact of the earthquake on the infrastructure and so the 1:23:20.160 --> 1:23:23.479 question is where are these people going to go. There's 1:23:23.960 --> 1:23:27.360 no shelter, it is freezing, and there's not enough aid 1:23:27.560 --> 1:23:31.519 to go around. And I'm hoping the countries that have 1:23:31.600 --> 1:23:34.040 said they will help are in the process of actually 1:23:34.120 --> 1:23:36.400 doing so, and I'm going to get into some of 1:23:36.479 --> 1:23:40.200 them in a moment, because I'm grateful that there's help 1:23:40.280 --> 1:23:43.599 coming from somewhere. And amongst all this, there have been 1:23:43.680 --> 1:23:47.840 calls to ease the Syrian border restrictions and controls for 1:23:48.080 --> 1:23:51.679 countries to offer their aid. And again, the rebel held 1:23:51.720 --> 1:23:54.559 on clave in northwest Syria, across the border from Turkey, 1:23:55.320 --> 1:23:57.360 is among the areas that have been hit the worst 1:23:57.439 --> 1:24:02.120 by this disaster. International pledges, as I said, of emergency 1:24:02.200 --> 1:24:04.840 aid have poured in for Turkey and Syria, leading to 1:24:04.960 --> 1:24:07.600 calls for the international community to relax some of the 1:24:07.640 --> 1:24:13.560 political restrictions on aid entering northwest Syria. The Turkish President Aragon, 1:24:13.760 --> 1:24:16.720 who was facing an election only a few months, said 1:24:16.760 --> 1:24:19.160 the offers of aid to Turkey had come from forty 1:24:19.240 --> 1:24:23.040 five countries, ranging from Kuwait to Israel, Russia and the UK. 1:24:23.880 --> 1:24:27.080 Syria said it had received offers of help from China, Russia, 1:24:27.240 --> 1:24:31.280 Lebanon Algeria and the United Arab Immirance. Aid from around 1:24:31.320 --> 1:24:35.439 the world is thankfully heading towards Turkey and Syria, and 1:24:35.680 --> 1:24:40.600 some seventy countries and fourteen international organizations have offered their assistance. 1:24:41.920 --> 1:24:46.320 Here's a roundup of some of the latest pledges. There 1:24:46.400 --> 1:24:49.920 is a Hungarian rescue team of fifty people, including five 1:24:50.000 --> 1:24:53.800 military doctors and to search dogs. South Korea plans to 1:24:53.880 --> 1:24:57.479 offer humanitarian aid worth five million to Turkey and sent 1:24:57.600 --> 1:25:00.559 about a hundred and ten disaster relief workers a military 1:25:00.680 --> 1:25:04.720 personnel to support its search and rescue work. You may 1:25:04.840 --> 1:25:07.519 notice that I'm only saying they're sending aid to Turkey 1:25:07.560 --> 1:25:09.280 and a couple of these, and I will get into 1:25:09.960 --> 1:25:14.360 why in a little bit, But to continue, the Palestinian 1:25:14.400 --> 1:25:18.920 International Corporation Agency will deploy seventy experts to the quake 1:25:19.160 --> 1:25:22.960 later this week, sending two crews comprised of the Civil Defense, 1:25:23.320 --> 1:25:26.200 Ministry of Health and the Palestinian Red Cross, as well 1:25:26.240 --> 1:25:29.640 as doctors and engineers. There are also teams from the 1:25:29.680 --> 1:25:33.400 Palestinian Red Crescent and they are carrying out earthquake rescue 1:25:33.400 --> 1:25:36.920 and relief operations in the Palestinian refugee camps and the 1:25:36.960 --> 1:25:42.240 surrounding areas in Syria. At least three Palestinian refugee camps 1:25:42.280 --> 1:25:46.200 in Syria were struck by the earthquake. Pakistan deployed two 1:25:46.280 --> 1:25:50.160 contingents of emergency services to Turkey. China said it will 1:25:50.240 --> 1:25:53.320 send about five point nine million dollars worth of aid 1:25:53.360 --> 1:25:57.000 to Turkey, while also coordinating with Syria for emergency supplies 1:25:57.080 --> 1:26:01.559 and accelerating ongoing food aid projects. Two Israeli aid groups 1:26:01.680 --> 1:26:04.080 chartered a special flight to Gauzi and tep on Tuesday 1:26:04.200 --> 1:26:08.639 to bring personnel and equipment to victims. Germany's Federal Agency 1:26:08.720 --> 1:26:11.400 for Technical Relief is sending a team of fifty recovery 1:26:11.479 --> 1:26:14.920 experts to Turkey. The Dalai Lama committed to sending rescue 1:26:14.920 --> 1:26:18.920 and relief efforts early today, and Taiwan increased its donation 1:26:19.000 --> 1:26:22.080 to Turkey from two hundred thousand to two million dollars 1:26:22.680 --> 1:26:25.679 and it dispatched about a hundred and thirty rescue teams. 1:26:26.400 --> 1:26:30.640 Indonesia also supplied aid for Turkey. The Vice President of 1:26:30.680 --> 1:26:34.639 Indonesia highlighted the urgency of dispatching humanitarian aid to Turkey 1:26:35.000 --> 1:26:38.000 to return the support granted by the country to Indonesia 1:26:38.439 --> 1:26:41.639 during their times of need over natural disasters in the past. 1:26:42.720 --> 1:26:47.120 Canada also pledged seven point five million dollars to earthquake relief. 1:26:47.760 --> 1:26:50.760 Egypt offered relief assistance to Syria in the wake of 1:26:50.840 --> 1:26:55.599 this earthquake. Ukraine will send eighty seven emergency staff workers 1:26:55.680 --> 1:26:58.920 to Turkey to assist with the relief efforts. And not 1:26:59.120 --> 1:27:03.120 just countries, but also companies and nonprofits have offered their 1:27:03.160 --> 1:27:06.760 help this week. For example, Amazon announced that it will 1:27:06.800 --> 1:27:10.280 help the victims of the Turkey earthquake by donating food, medicine, 1:27:10.320 --> 1:27:15.760 and equipment from its Istanbul warehouse. Amazon has about two 1:27:15.880 --> 1:27:19.120 thousand employees in Turkey, and in a statement on Monday, 1:27:19.240 --> 1:27:22.720 it said that it activated its quote disaster relief capabilities 1:27:23.160 --> 1:27:27.280 and was preparing to donate relief items including blankets, tense food, 1:27:27.479 --> 1:27:31.920 baby food, and medicines. Even here in the US, the 1:27:32.120 --> 1:27:35.040 Virginia Task Force one is sending a crew of seventy 1:27:35.080 --> 1:27:38.519 nine members and six dogs to Turkey, and there are 1:27:38.560 --> 1:27:41.479 seventy eight members of the l A County Fire Department 1:27:41.760 --> 1:27:45.679 who left Monday evening to Turkey. And then there's Greece, 1:27:45.760 --> 1:27:48.560 who set aside tensions with Turkey to send aid but 1:27:48.720 --> 1:27:52.960 helping Syria. They said is more complicated. Despite its tensions 1:27:53.000 --> 1:27:56.200 with Turkey. Greece was among the countries that have dispatched 1:27:56.280 --> 1:28:00.960 help to the country, but conflict torn northwest Syria makes 1:28:01.000 --> 1:28:04.719 the same efforts more complicated, the Prime Minister said. Grace 1:28:04.800 --> 1:28:07.560 and Turkey, he said, are quote neighbors who need to 1:28:07.640 --> 1:28:10.360 help each other through difficult times. This is not the 1:28:10.439 --> 1:28:13.360 first time earthquakes have struck our countries. This is a 1:28:13.479 --> 1:28:16.160 time to temporarily set aside er differences and try to 1:28:16.240 --> 1:28:20.560 address what is a very, very urgent situation. He continued 1:28:20.640 --> 1:28:24.360 to explain that in Syria, however, there is no official 1:28:24.520 --> 1:28:27.479 person or official from the government to have a dialogue with, 1:28:28.000 --> 1:28:30.280 and no assurance that aid will make it to the 1:28:30.400 --> 1:28:34.080 impacted area and people, and that makes relief efforts hard 1:28:34.160 --> 1:28:37.280 to pull off. No country on its own has the 1:28:37.360 --> 1:28:40.920 ability to actually make these sort of arrangements. That's why 1:28:41.040 --> 1:28:44.320 I think it is important that these negotiations could take 1:28:44.400 --> 1:28:46.960 place either through the u N or through the European 1:28:47.120 --> 1:28:51.000 Union by pulling resources. I would not feel confident having 1:28:51.080 --> 1:28:54.800 these sort of discussions at a bilateral level. He also 1:28:54.880 --> 1:28:58.960 added that he has not directly communicated with Damascus. He 1:28:59.040 --> 1:29:02.080 went on to say that quote. I want to stress this, 1:29:02.560 --> 1:29:05.720 this is not about geopolitics, This is not about recognizing 1:29:05.720 --> 1:29:08.320 any sort of regime. This is about saving people and 1:29:08.400 --> 1:29:12.040 horrible conditions who desperately need our assistance. So the scale 1:29:12.080 --> 1:29:14.880 of aid being offered is going to require a large 1:29:14.960 --> 1:29:18.840 coordination effort as well as delicate diplomatic maneuvers to supply 1:29:19.000 --> 1:29:21.840 aid to Syria, where the leadership of Charla said is 1:29:21.880 --> 1:29:26.080 not recognized in the West. It's not recognized for me either, 1:29:26.400 --> 1:29:29.280 and many Syrians feel the same way. But that is 1:29:29.320 --> 1:29:32.200 the monster that we are currently dealing with and there's 1:29:32.240 --> 1:29:34.160 not much we can do about that at this certain 1:29:34.200 --> 1:29:37.799 point in time. And so, as I mentioned, the Syrian 1:29:37.840 --> 1:29:39.879 side of the border is going to be a challenge 1:29:40.080 --> 1:29:43.640 since the worst affected areas contain hundreds of thousands of 1:29:43.720 --> 1:29:46.760 Syrian refugees that are locked in a war zone and 1:29:46.840 --> 1:29:51.679 still facing attacks from Syrian government forces. Aid agencies reported 1:29:51.720 --> 1:29:54.439 that some of the roads from Turkey into Syria were blocked, 1:29:54.560 --> 1:29:58.320 including the main cross border crossing used by international aid agencies. 1:29:59.160 --> 1:30:02.320 The White Helmets said hundreds of families were still trapped 1:30:02.360 --> 1:30:05.680 in the aftermath of the earthquake. They also added that 1:30:06.160 --> 1:30:10.080 terrible weather conditions, including freezing temperatures, had compounded the crisis, 1:30:11.120 --> 1:30:15.360 and they're continuing rescue operations in Syria despite great difficulties 1:30:15.400 --> 1:30:19.680 and aftershocks, they said. The White Helmets also urged the 1:30:19.720 --> 1:30:23.320 Assad regime and Russia to refrain from military activity, and 1:30:23.360 --> 1:30:26.760 they affected areas in order to allow international groups to 1:30:26.880 --> 1:30:30.920 unify and help the people affected. A spokesperson from the 1:30:30.960 --> 1:30:34.880 White Helmets said, our teams responded and until now many 1:30:35.000 --> 1:30:37.920 families are under the rubble. Our teams are trying hard 1:30:38.000 --> 1:30:41.200 to find all the casualties. Northwest Syria is now a 1:30:41.280 --> 1:30:44.920 disaster area. We need help from everyone to save our people. 1:30:46.760 --> 1:30:48.760 I think this would be a moment to take a 1:30:48.800 --> 1:30:54.120 little break. I don't have the capacity or emotional bandwidth 1:30:54.240 --> 1:30:57.600 to think of a clever segue. So here are some 1:30:57.760 --> 1:31:03.160 ads and are back. We're talking about the difficulty sending 1:31:03.200 --> 1:31:07.800 aid to Syria along the Turkey Syrian border. Last month, 1:31:07.880 --> 1:31:10.920 actually the U N. Security Council agreed to allow aid 1:31:11.040 --> 1:31:15.360 into northwest Syria from Turkey across one border crossing Bablahella, 1:31:16.000 --> 1:31:20.600 surprising no one. The Syrian regime has been resistant to 1:31:20.720 --> 1:31:24.519 allowing aid into a region serving more than four million 1:31:24.600 --> 1:31:28.200 of its people because it regards the AID as undermining 1:31:28.360 --> 1:31:32.559 Syrian sovereignty and reducing its chances of winning back control 1:31:32.720 --> 1:31:38.200 of the region. Yes, that is correct. The Syrian government 1:31:38.400 --> 1:31:40.519 doesn't want to help more than four million of its 1:31:40.560 --> 1:31:44.439 own people because one day it wants to control them again. 1:31:45.920 --> 1:31:50.439 Are you fucking kidding me? I? I don't understand that 1:31:50.880 --> 1:31:56.120 malignant desire to rule over a land that you have destroyed, 1:31:56.520 --> 1:32:00.280 in a people that you have murdered. I don't get 1:32:00.439 --> 1:32:05.320 the fucking point. But regardless, that is one of the 1:32:05.400 --> 1:32:08.600 many reasons why getting aid into Syria is going to 1:32:08.720 --> 1:32:13.480 be much more complicated than getting aid into Turkey. Additionally, 1:32:13.760 --> 1:32:18.080 Mark Locock, the former head of UN Humanitarian Affairs, said 1:32:18.680 --> 1:32:21.760 the area's worst affected by the earthquake inside Syria look 1:32:21.840 --> 1:32:24.479 to be run by the Turkish controlled opposition and not 1:32:24.640 --> 1:32:27.919 by the Syrian government. It is going to require Turkish 1:32:27.960 --> 1:32:31.280 acquiescence to aid in these areas. It is unlikely the 1:32:31.360 --> 1:32:35.320 Syrian government will do much to help. Yes, Mark, I 1:32:35.439 --> 1:32:38.400 think you're right. The Syrian government isn't gonna do shit, 1:32:38.840 --> 1:32:42.360 if anything. Charles said, is probably happy seeing all these 1:32:42.400 --> 1:32:45.240 people dying, because that's his whole mma, just to kill 1:32:45.360 --> 1:32:50.719 the Syrian people anyway. A video from a hospital posted 1:32:50.760 --> 1:32:53.960 by the Syrian American Medical Society showed that it was 1:32:54.080 --> 1:32:58.400 immensely crowded. They said, our hospitals are overwhelmed with patients 1:32:58.439 --> 1:33:01.400 filling the hallways. There is an mediate need for trauma 1:33:01.439 --> 1:33:05.200 supplies and a comprehensive emergency response to save lives and 1:33:05.320 --> 1:33:09.360 treat the injured. Initial needs are for tens of thousands 1:33:09.439 --> 1:33:13.120 of tents, heaters for the tents, tens of thousands of blankets, 1:33:13.240 --> 1:33:16.880 thermal clothes, ready to eat food, and basic first aid kits. 1:33:17.960 --> 1:33:21.000 A UNICEF representative in Aleppo said that the hospitals in 1:33:21.080 --> 1:33:26.160 Syria are absolutely overloaded. Hospitals are full of patients with trauma, 1:33:26.439 --> 1:33:29.720 broken bones and lacerations, and some people are going to 1:33:29.800 --> 1:33:32.240 the hospital to seek help for the mental trauma they 1:33:32.320 --> 1:33:37.800 endured after the earthquake struck, The UNISEF representative Angela Kearney said, 1:33:38.040 --> 1:33:42.960 while hospitals are functioning, the task has been overwhelming. Describing 1:33:43.040 --> 1:33:45.839 the scene in Aleppo when the earthquake struck on Monday, 1:33:46.320 --> 1:33:49.479 Kearnie said children who have already been traumatized by war 1:33:49.960 --> 1:33:54.840 were bewildered. They didn't know what was happening. Kearnie said 1:33:54.960 --> 1:33:57.479 that on Monday morning, when UNISEEF began its work in 1:33:57.560 --> 1:34:00.280 the area, there were seven schools and a bow that 1:34:00.360 --> 1:34:04.280 are being used as shelters. By Tuesday morning, that number 1:34:04.360 --> 1:34:07.720 grew to sixty seven and currently it is nearly two 1:34:07.840 --> 1:34:11.639 hundred and all of those schools that are partially damaged. 1:34:11.800 --> 1:34:14.720 There are families there who left their apartments, left their 1:34:14.760 --> 1:34:18.719 houses with just their pajamas, she said. She also added 1:34:18.920 --> 1:34:21.960 that while aid is starting to go into the affected areas, 1:34:22.160 --> 1:34:25.920 there is still a desperate need for blankets, food, clean water, 1:34:26.120 --> 1:34:30.480 medical care and nutritional care. She said that water, sanitation 1:34:30.640 --> 1:34:33.920 and nutrition needs are the most urgent. The aid is 1:34:33.960 --> 1:34:36.799 starting to go in, but it is overwhelming. The needs 1:34:37.000 --> 1:34:40.840 are very great. There are discussions under way to open 1:34:40.960 --> 1:34:43.760 aid corridors from the government controlled parts of Syria to 1:34:43.960 --> 1:34:48.519 the rebel held areas. Hammad Hammoud, Syria Country manager at 1:34:48.520 --> 1:34:51.760 the Norwegian Red Cross, said that he hopes with the 1:34:51.840 --> 1:34:55.519 help and efforts from humanitarian communities, this would happen in 1:34:55.600 --> 1:34:59.720 the coming days, and he said currently nothing has moved there, 1:35:00.560 --> 1:35:03.240 but there are discussions about moving aid and access to 1:35:03.320 --> 1:35:06.800 these areas. He continued to say after being asked if 1:35:06.840 --> 1:35:10.120 the Syrian government in Damascus has been helpful to these areas, 1:35:10.680 --> 1:35:13.120 he said. They have stated that they are open to 1:35:13.240 --> 1:35:17.320 cross line intervention, meaning from government held areas to these 1:35:17.400 --> 1:35:21.360 non government held areas. They are open to it. They'reout 1:35:21.400 --> 1:35:25.479 doing ship though obviously earlier today, the head of the 1:35:25.600 --> 1:35:30.320 Syrian Arab Red Crescent, which described itself as an independent 1:35:30.439 --> 1:35:34.800 and volunteer based humanitarian organization, said that the organization is 1:35:34.880 --> 1:35:38.280 ready to immediately send aid convoys to rebel held areas, 1:35:38.439 --> 1:35:42.560 including Islib through the u N. Hammoud added that the 1:35:42.640 --> 1:35:46.600 humanitarian situation is worsening. He said, we are in a 1:35:46.720 --> 1:35:50.960 race against time. In describing the rescue and search operations, 1:35:51.080 --> 1:35:53.800 Hammoud said that due to the lack of machinery, most 1:35:53.840 --> 1:35:55.840 of the work on clearing the rubble is done by 1:35:55.960 --> 1:35:59.840 hand and the cold weather conditions are not helping. He 1:36:00.000 --> 1:36:02.920 also added that the buildings are already weakened because of 1:36:03.000 --> 1:36:06.560 eleven years of war. In addition to the thousands of 1:36:06.680 --> 1:36:09.479 people that have been lost to this tragedy, there are 1:36:09.520 --> 1:36:12.600 also some cultural sites that have been permanently damaged in 1:36:12.680 --> 1:36:17.480 both Turkey and Syria. UNESCO, the United Nations Cultural organization, 1:36:17.960 --> 1:36:21.360 said it's going to provide assistance following the cultural site damage, 1:36:22.160 --> 1:36:25.679 UNESCO said that it is particularly concerned about the situation 1:36:25.800 --> 1:36:28.320 in the ancient city of Aleppo, which is on the 1:36:28.479 --> 1:36:32.080 list of World Heritage and Danger. It added that the 1:36:32.200 --> 1:36:36.839 citadel had significant damage, the old city wall has collapsed, 1:36:36.920 --> 1:36:40.200 and several buildings and the sux have been weakened. In 1:36:40.280 --> 1:36:43.560 the Turkish city of the yad Beka, UNESCO lamented the 1:36:43.640 --> 1:36:46.800 collapse of several buildings. The city is home to the 1:36:46.880 --> 1:36:50.080 World Heritage Site, the Yabukat of Fortress and the he 1:36:50.240 --> 1:36:53.920 cl Gardens cultural landscape, which is an important center of 1:36:54.040 --> 1:36:58.600 the Roman, sun Acid, Byzantine, Islamic and Ottoman periods. The 1:36:58.760 --> 1:37:02.639 organization says it is mobilizing experts to establish a precise 1:37:02.720 --> 1:37:06.320 inventory of the damage with the aim of rapidly securing 1:37:06.439 --> 1:37:10.320 and stabilizing these sites. Aleppo was also one of the 1:37:10.600 --> 1:37:16.200 city's worst damaged by the Syrian regime. It is a beautiful, 1:37:17.040 --> 1:37:21.120 beautiful place. Everything that the regime has destroyed was a beautiful, 1:37:21.120 --> 1:37:24.720 beautiful place. Aleppo had a lot of history, though, and 1:37:25.680 --> 1:37:29.280 that region is just home to so much history, and 1:37:29.600 --> 1:37:33.040 it's just really heartbreaking to know the extent of the 1:37:33.200 --> 1:37:39.160 loss that doesn't just include lives. In talking to my 1:37:39.320 --> 1:37:43.840 mom and my family about this, the sentiment seems like 1:37:44.040 --> 1:37:47.879 it's the same that it's been for the past decade. Essentially, 1:37:49.080 --> 1:37:54.080 Syrians don't have a government. There is no government. Assad 1:37:54.160 --> 1:37:58.519 in his regime doesn't care about the Syrian people. My 1:37:58.640 --> 1:38:02.200 mom literally said, we have no one. We've known this 1:38:02.320 --> 1:38:05.720 for years, no one helped us. Syrians are the ones 1:38:05.760 --> 1:38:09.360 supporting each other. The White Helmets is a great example 1:38:09.479 --> 1:38:12.559 of this. One of our family's friends on the ground 1:38:12.720 --> 1:38:14.559 in the city of Hamma, which is where my mom 1:38:14.680 --> 1:38:18.400 is from, was saying that it was absolute chaos. Everyone 1:38:18.479 --> 1:38:20.439 is in the streets and no one is daring to 1:38:20.520 --> 1:38:24.120 go back inside their homes. Another person was telling us 1:38:24.120 --> 1:38:27.160 about his experience, and he said, I was asleep and 1:38:27.280 --> 1:38:31.120 felt the earthquake start in my bed. My son was terrified, 1:38:31.600 --> 1:38:34.160 and I went to hug my son. I kept telling 1:38:34.240 --> 1:38:37.360 him it'll be over soon, It'll be over soon, and 1:38:37.479 --> 1:38:40.680 then the roof started crumbling on top of us. So 1:38:41.160 --> 1:38:43.840 then he ran outside and he saw many people doing 1:38:43.880 --> 1:38:47.320 the same, just running outside their homes if they were 1:38:47.360 --> 1:38:49.840 able to make it out, and watching their homes just 1:38:50.000 --> 1:38:53.439 crumble in front of them. Let's take a break, and 1:38:53.479 --> 1:38:55.799 when we come back, I want to set the scene 1:38:56.439 --> 1:38:59.160 of what Syrians have been going through even before this 1:38:59.320 --> 1:39:02.840 earthquake been happened, and how sanctions in particular have made 1:39:02.880 --> 1:39:08.320 the impact of this disaster exponentially worse. So we're back 1:39:08.680 --> 1:39:12.360 and we're going to talk about how sanctions have only 1:39:12.479 --> 1:39:16.559 aided in the suffering of the Syrian people. Twelve years 1:39:16.720 --> 1:39:20.040 after the eruption of the Syrian Uprising and the eleven 1:39:20.120 --> 1:39:24.479 subsequent conflict, the us IS Syria policy has constrained political 1:39:24.560 --> 1:39:28.840 pressure on the Assad regime to broad economic sanctions, but 1:39:29.280 --> 1:39:33.680 despite an expansive approach that targets entire economic sectors, these 1:39:33.720 --> 1:39:36.320 sanctions have had little to no effect in pushing the 1:39:36.439 --> 1:39:40.280 regime to offer political concessions, engage meaningfully in a peaceful 1:39:40.280 --> 1:39:43.599 settlement of the conflict, or improve its human rights record. 1:39:44.280 --> 1:39:47.760 All the while, conditions in Syria have steadily worsened as 1:39:47.840 --> 1:39:51.519 sanctions along with the destructive effects of twelve years of conflict, 1:39:51.640 --> 1:39:55.360 the economic crisis and neighboring Lebanon, and the COVID nineteen pandemic. 1:39:55.720 --> 1:39:59.080 All of this has fueled an economic collapse that has 1:39:59.200 --> 1:40:02.200 left more than i d percent of the population in 1:40:02.280 --> 1:40:07.160 Syria living in poverty. In nineteen seventy nine, the United 1:40:07.200 --> 1:40:10.920 States listed Syria as a state sponsor of terrorism, and 1:40:11.040 --> 1:40:14.200 since then it has pursued sanctions as a primary tool 1:40:14.240 --> 1:40:19.160 in its policy towards Syria. The George W. Bush administration 1:40:19.320 --> 1:40:22.600 issued a series of sanctions under executive orders aiming to 1:40:22.760 --> 1:40:28.160 limit serious destabilizing influence in Iraq. However, after the uprising, 1:40:28.320 --> 1:40:32.080 the Barack Obama and Donald Trump administrations sanctioned the Assad 1:40:32.160 --> 1:40:35.880 regime on an unprecedented scale for its gross human rights 1:40:36.000 --> 1:40:40.680 violations against his people. These sanctions ultimately accumulated in the 1:40:40.800 --> 1:40:44.120 passing of the Caesar Act in twenty nineteen, and this 1:40:44.280 --> 1:40:48.080 allows primary and secondary sanctions targeting both those who commit 1:40:48.200 --> 1:40:52.880 the sanctionable offenses and those who enable them. Just three 1:40:52.960 --> 1:40:57.280 months ago, in November two, a u when appointed independent 1:40:57.400 --> 1:41:00.400 human rights expert urge the United States to lift the 1:41:00.520 --> 1:41:04.240 unilateral sanctions against Syria, warning that they are perpetrating and 1:41:04.360 --> 1:41:08.880 exacerbating the destruction and trauma suffered by ordinary citizens since 1:41:08.960 --> 1:41:14.439 the brutal war began in This expert's name is Alana Dohan, 1:41:14.760 --> 1:41:18.120 and she said, I am struck by the pervasiveness of 1:41:18.200 --> 1:41:22.160 the human rights and humanitarian impact of the unilateral coercive 1:41:22.160 --> 1:41:26.080 measures imposed on Syria, and the total economic and financial 1:41:26.160 --> 1:41:30.200 isolation of a country whose people are struggling to rebuild 1:41:30.280 --> 1:41:34.240 a life with dignity. In a statement that followed her 1:41:34.320 --> 1:41:38.600 twelve day visit to Syria, Dohan presented detailed information on 1:41:38.680 --> 1:41:42.200 the catastrophic effects that sanctions have had on all aspects 1:41:42.240 --> 1:41:47.120 of Syrian life. Currently, serious population is living below the 1:41:47.160 --> 1:41:53.000 poverty line, she said, pointing to their limited access to food, water, electricity, shelter, 1:41:53.479 --> 1:41:59.600 cooking and heating, fuel, transportation, and healthcare. Moreover, growing economic 1:41:59.680 --> 1:42:02.560 hards ship threatens to trigger a massive brain drain in 1:42:02.640 --> 1:42:07.040 the country, she said, with more than half of the 1:42:07.240 --> 1:42:12.080 vital infrastructure either completely destroyed or severely damaged. The imposition 1:42:12.160 --> 1:42:19.000 of unilateral sanctions on key economic sectors, including oil, gas, electricity, trade, construction, 1:42:19.080 --> 1:42:23.280 and engineering, have quashed national income and they undermine efforts 1:42:23.320 --> 1:42:29.160 towards economic recovery and reconstruction. These sanctions have committed various 1:42:29.240 --> 1:42:34.000 human rights violations in their existence, including these serious shortages 1:42:34.040 --> 1:42:38.880 and medicines and specialized medical equipment. My family and I 1:42:39.120 --> 1:42:43.160 have direct experience with these repercussions of the lack of 1:42:43.600 --> 1:42:50.000 medicines and medical equipment. My cousin, a child, had brain 1:42:50.120 --> 1:42:56.200 cancer and it got worse and worse, and the city 1:42:56.240 --> 1:42:59.400 they were in did not offer the treatment necessary or 1:42:59.479 --> 1:43:02.880 even key mo to help his condition. So his mother 1:43:03.000 --> 1:43:06.320 would drive to Damascus, where at least some of the 1:43:06.400 --> 1:43:11.639 treatment options were available. But the road to Damascus, even 1:43:11.680 --> 1:43:14.120 though it shouldn't take more than a few hours, can 1:43:14.240 --> 1:43:17.640 sometimes take all day because there are so many checkpoints 1:43:17.920 --> 1:43:21.479 and road closures and just the regime making it so 1:43:21.680 --> 1:43:28.439 difficult to do anything. Ultimately, my cousin was suffering for 1:43:28.720 --> 1:43:32.840 the remainder of his very young life, and he didn't 1:43:32.880 --> 1:43:35.639 get the treatment that he needed. And I really think 1:43:36.200 --> 1:43:39.360 these sanctions have a lot to do with the lack 1:43:39.560 --> 1:43:44.200 of access that my family and many families have in Syria. 1:43:45.280 --> 1:43:50.400 And that experience that my family went through is one 1:43:50.560 --> 1:43:54.560 of many that many Syrian families have endured because of 1:43:54.680 --> 1:43:58.000 these sanctions. So I want you guys to keep that 1:43:58.120 --> 1:44:05.800 in mind. That numbers also contain individual lives, and each 1:44:05.880 --> 1:44:10.040 one is devastating all on its own. And I know 1:44:10.240 --> 1:44:13.280 I say that often, but I think it bears repeating 1:44:13.439 --> 1:44:16.560 every time. I don't want us to be numb to 1:44:17.320 --> 1:44:23.000 statistics and numbers when it comes to casualties and suffering 1:44:23.200 --> 1:44:27.760 and loss. And maybe it sounds obvious, but I just 1:44:27.920 --> 1:44:31.439 think we need to remember the value of human life 1:44:31.760 --> 1:44:35.679 and what it means to take it away. So that's 1:44:36.040 --> 1:44:38.840 what I'm going to say about that for now. Let's 1:44:38.880 --> 1:44:42.679 get back to the reports that Ms Dohan was showing 1:44:42.720 --> 1:44:45.760 the US back in November two about the effect of 1:44:45.840 --> 1:44:50.000 the sanctions, so including the impact that sanctions have had 1:44:50.160 --> 1:44:53.839 on these serious shortages and medicines and specialized medical equipment 1:44:54.160 --> 1:44:57.240 due to the unavailability of equipment and spare parts. She 1:44:57.400 --> 1:45:01.759 warned that the rehabilitation and development of water distribution networks 1:45:01.840 --> 1:45:05.960 for drinking and irrigation has stalled, with serious implications for 1:45:06.080 --> 1:45:11.200 public health and food security. Twelve million Syrians are experiencing 1:45:11.240 --> 1:45:14.960 food and security. This is pre earthquake. The number is 1:45:15.040 --> 1:45:19.360 probably much higher now. Dohan urged for the immediate lifting 1:45:19.520 --> 1:45:23.560 of all unilateral sanctions that severely harm human rights and 1:45:23.680 --> 1:45:29.040 prevent any efforts for early recovery, rebuilding and reconstruction. She said, 1:45:29.600 --> 1:45:33.720 no reference to good objectives of unilateral sanctions justifies the 1:45:33.840 --> 1:45:38.200 violation of fundamental human rights. The international community has an 1:45:38.280 --> 1:45:42.920 obligation of solidarity and assistance to the Syrian people. I 1:45:43.000 --> 1:45:46.400 want to add something that UNICEF said about the children 1:45:46.479 --> 1:45:50.200 in Syria. Children in Syria continue to face one of 1:45:50.240 --> 1:45:54.360 the most complex humanitarian situations in the world. A worsening 1:45:54.439 --> 1:45:59.040 economic crisis. Continued localized hostilities after more than a decade 1:45:59.080 --> 1:46:03.760 of grinding, con liked mass displacement, and devastated public infrastructure 1:46:04.160 --> 1:46:07.600 have left two thirds of the population in need of assistance. 1:46:08.400 --> 1:46:12.280 Water Borne diseases pose another deadly threat to children and 1:46:12.360 --> 1:46:17.000 families affected. And all of this is again pre earthquake. 1:46:17.439 --> 1:46:19.880 This is the life that Syrians have known for years 1:46:19.920 --> 1:46:25.640 now without any assistance. Sanctions have done nothing but contribute 1:46:25.680 --> 1:46:28.400 to the increase in the suffering of Assyrian people, and 1:46:28.520 --> 1:46:32.000 now countries and organizations might have a hard time providing 1:46:32.120 --> 1:46:37.080 aid because of these sanctions. Sanctions have done nothing but 1:46:37.240 --> 1:46:41.519 contribute to the suffering and pain of Assyrian people. They 1:46:41.600 --> 1:46:45.360 didn't do anything they were supposedly meant to do. The 1:46:45.439 --> 1:46:49.479 assad regime isn't going to change anything. It hasn't changed anything. 1:46:49.720 --> 1:46:53.040 It's still killing its people. I also want to mention 1:46:53.160 --> 1:46:58.559 that last year on MATEO, the EU extended its sanctions 1:46:58.640 --> 1:47:02.240 against the Syrian government for another year. Who knows if 1:47:02.280 --> 1:47:06.400 this will change, but for now that's the reality. So 1:47:06.479 --> 1:47:10.439 I'm really hoping these sanctions get eventually lifted or else. 1:47:10.680 --> 1:47:13.719 Helping the Syrian people is going to be extremely difficult, 1:47:14.880 --> 1:47:18.760 and right now rescuers are still digging through thousands and 1:47:18.880 --> 1:47:24.599 thousands of flattened buildings in near freezing temperatures. The death 1:47:24.680 --> 1:47:28.960 toll is only going to continue to rise, and everyone 1:47:29.080 --> 1:47:32.600 there needs all the help they can get. And I know, 1:47:33.160 --> 1:47:36.800 at least for me, it feels really helpless. I've felt 1:47:37.000 --> 1:47:39.960 pretty helpless for a long time when it comes to Syria. 1:47:40.760 --> 1:47:43.160 But if you're able to donate any money at all, 1:47:43.360 --> 1:47:45.439 I would really urge you to donate to a charity 1:47:45.479 --> 1:47:49.040 that you trust. I really like the White Helmets because 1:47:49.200 --> 1:47:51.200 they're just on the ground and they've been doing the 1:47:51.280 --> 1:47:55.519 work for years. So if you're able to, I think 1:47:55.600 --> 1:47:58.599 help can go a long way. I want to end 1:47:58.680 --> 1:48:02.800 with something that Atlanta Dohan, the UN appointed independent human 1:48:02.920 --> 1:48:06.080 rights expert that gave the US this report about the 1:48:06.160 --> 1:48:11.880 sanctions in November. She quoted one view that she heard 1:48:12.000 --> 1:48:17.200 expressed many times. She said, I saw much suffering, but 1:48:17.360 --> 1:48:20.880 now I see the hope die. So that's where the 1:48:20.920 --> 1:48:26.479 Syrian people started, that's where they've been. Nearly seventy of 1:48:26.560 --> 1:48:30.200 the Syrian population was already in need of humanitarian aid 1:48:30.360 --> 1:48:34.160 before the earthquake even happened, and it's an issue that's 1:48:34.160 --> 1:48:38.719 only been compounded by the tragedy today. The UN said, quote, 1:48:39.120 --> 1:48:42.760 this tragedy will have a devastating impact on many vulnerable 1:48:42.840 --> 1:48:45.800 families who struggle to provide for their loved ones on 1:48:45.880 --> 1:48:49.799 a daily basis. The statement outlined the impact of serious 1:48:49.880 --> 1:48:54.519 twelve year war, describing a country as grappling with economic collapse, 1:48:54.680 --> 1:48:59.439 severe water, electricity and fuel shortages. They issued an appeal 1:48:59.560 --> 1:49:04.000 to all donor partners to provide assistance necessary to alleviate suffering. 1:49:04.800 --> 1:49:07.599 The U N and humanitarian partners say they are currently 1:49:07.680 --> 1:49:11.639 focusing on immediate needs including food, shelter and non food 1:49:11.720 --> 1:49:16.559 items and medicine. And the devastation of this earthquake because 1:49:16.640 --> 1:49:21.320 of this is truly devastating. I cannot emphasize that enough. 1:49:22.560 --> 1:49:25.320 So again, if you're able to donate, I really urge 1:49:25.360 --> 1:49:28.760 you too, And if you can't, just keep raising awareness 1:49:28.840 --> 1:49:32.760 because someone else might be able to donate. And that's 1:49:32.760 --> 1:49:37.559 all we really have for now. So that's the episode. 1:49:37.600 --> 1:49:40.160 I hope it was informative or eye opening in any way. 1:49:40.960 --> 1:49:43.680 Thank you for listening. I will talk to you later. 1:49:53.680 --> 1:49:56.439 It seems like hardly a month goes by where we 1:49:56.560 --> 1:50:00.439 are not bombarded with horrific images of far ride Islands, 1:50:01.240 --> 1:50:05.280 mass shootings, the target synagogues, black churches and queer nightclubs, 1:50:05.920 --> 1:50:09.679 death threats to hospitals spurred by post from online trolls. 1:50:10.280 --> 1:50:14.080 In a barrage of fascist groups attempting to intimidate everyone 1:50:14.160 --> 1:50:19.360 and everything, from children's events, black Lives Matter protests, pride celebrations, 1:50:19.520 --> 1:50:24.000 and abortion clinics. Wooden resistance is mobilized and people do 1:50:24.200 --> 1:50:27.920 push back. The media often frames these confrontations the clash 1:50:28.040 --> 1:50:31.840 simply between two sets of extremists. On today's shows, the 1:50:31.960 --> 1:50:34.840 It's Going Down crew once again takes over. It could happen. 1:50:34.960 --> 1:50:37.919 Here we look at how far from being just confined 1:50:38.000 --> 1:50:42.160 to small sets of antifast super soldiers, mass community self 1:50:42.200 --> 1:50:45.360 defense is part and parcels to the DNA of grassroots 1:50:45.439 --> 1:50:48.720 movements for liberation in the so called United States. We 1:50:48.800 --> 1:50:52.200 can see this throughout the ongoing history of indigenous resistance 1:50:52.240 --> 1:50:55.680 to colonization. In the fight against slavery and racial apartheid. 1:50:56.080 --> 1:50:59.599 Radical labor unions such as the i w W organized 1:50:59.640 --> 1:51:03.080 against Ku Klux Klan attention that even led to running 1:51:03.160 --> 1:51:07.400 gun battles, while militant organizers like Robert F. Williams and 1:51:07.479 --> 1:51:10.439 groups such as the Deacons for Defense, who helped inspire 1:51:10.520 --> 1:51:14.479 the Black Panthers, fought back against white racist mobs. In 1:51:14.600 --> 1:51:17.080 the book This Non Violent Stuff Will Get You Killed, 1:51:17.560 --> 1:51:21.800 author Charles E. Cobb documents this history, discussing the wide 1:51:21.920 --> 1:51:25.840 use of arms and defending civil rights organizers from white supremacists. 1:51:26.280 --> 1:51:29.719 Groups like Anti Racist Action or a r A carried 1:51:29.760 --> 1:51:33.320 on this trajectory, working to set up chapters of organized 1:51:33.360 --> 1:51:36.960 anti racists that confronted neo Nazi groups the Clan, and 1:51:37.040 --> 1:51:41.559 participated in defense of abortion clinics. Once again, I'm Mike Andrews. 1:51:41.720 --> 1:51:45.560 Let's get into it. In two thousand five, in the 1:51:45.640 --> 1:51:49.360 wake of Hurricane Katrina, the levy surrounding New Orleans broke, 1:51:49.760 --> 1:51:54.360 flooding working class communities and homes. Those that could evacuate fled, 1:51:54.680 --> 1:51:58.080 while many, often poor and black, were stuck behind to 1:51:58.240 --> 1:52:01.840 fend for themselves. Stepping into this setting was a group 1:52:01.880 --> 1:52:05.200 of Black Liberation and anarchist activists who worked to set 1:52:05.280 --> 1:52:08.759 up mutual aid hubs and free clinics, dubbed Common Ground. 1:52:09.360 --> 1:52:13.599 But as these volunteers worked to feed people, restore people's homes, 1:52:13.920 --> 1:52:17.240 and provide free medical care, they quickly found that they 1:52:17.280 --> 1:52:20.759 weren't the only organized force on the streets of New Orleans. 1:52:21.760 --> 1:52:26.000 In this following interview, Sunseri Ali Shakur discusses how the 1:52:26.040 --> 1:52:29.040 group came up against and defended themselves from a formation 1:52:29.200 --> 1:52:33.439 of armed racist white vigilantees who worked directly with local 1:52:33.520 --> 1:52:36.800 police and our suspected of carrying out multiple murders of 1:52:36.920 --> 1:52:41.080 unarmed black men a warning. However, this interview was graphic 1:52:41.280 --> 1:52:46.360 in details death, racist violence, and anti black racism. My 1:52:46.479 --> 1:52:51.439 name is s I'm organized out of Wasson and d C. 1:52:52.040 --> 1:52:57.920 I went to New Orleans UH doing Kataka add the 1:52:58.000 --> 1:53:03.400 mass and I helped um co co found Common Ground 1:53:03.479 --> 1:53:08.519 Relief and Common Ground was formed as a response to 1:53:08.640 --> 1:53:14.160 the calamity of Katrina and um Common Ground was also 1:53:14.400 --> 1:53:17.960 the brainchild of the Angola Three, so a lot of 1:53:18.040 --> 1:53:22.240 the base organizers of Common Ground were already in New Orleans. 1:53:22.680 --> 1:53:26.519 UH organized and the help the Angola Three. So the 1:53:26.600 --> 1:53:31.400 Angle of Three was basically the god fathers of common 1:53:31.479 --> 1:53:35.479 ground ground relief. We lost a few of the of 1:53:35.600 --> 1:53:39.840 the elders, Alfred wood Fox as such, and we still 1:53:39.960 --> 1:53:45.439 got King, Uh King, Wos and everything. A note to 1:53:45.479 --> 1:53:48.760 our listeners. The Angola Three referred to here is a 1:53:48.840 --> 1:53:52.519 group of formally incarcerated black political prisoners and members of 1:53:52.560 --> 1:53:56.360 the Black Parther Party in the ninet seventies were imprisoned 1:53:56.520 --> 1:54:01.000 in the notorious Angola Facility in Louisiana. This included Robert 1:54:01.080 --> 1:54:04.800 Hillary King, Albert wood Fox, and Hermann Wallace. King was 1:54:04.880 --> 1:54:08.040 released in two thousand one, and, along with another former 1:54:08.120 --> 1:54:11.840 Black Panther, Malik Raheem, became involved in mutual aid and 1:54:11.880 --> 1:54:15.200 disaster relief efforts in New Orleans following Katrina in two 1:54:15.280 --> 1:54:19.000 thousand five under the banner of common Ground. Wallace was 1:54:19.040 --> 1:54:23.439 released from prison in October one, only to pass away 1:54:23.520 --> 1:54:27.120 sadly three days later, a day after being reindited by 1:54:27.160 --> 1:54:30.839 the state. Albert Wood Fox was finally released in February 1:54:30.880 --> 1:54:33.920 of two thousand sixteen and passed on six years later 1:54:34.200 --> 1:54:38.200 due to complications from COVID nineteen tireless activists on both 1:54:38.240 --> 1:54:41.160 sides of the prison walls together the angal of three 1:54:41.360 --> 1:54:46.680 endured a combined total of one fourteen years in solitary confinement. Yeah, 1:54:46.840 --> 1:54:49.280 my job when I when I touched down the common 1:54:49.360 --> 1:54:52.600 ground was basically I was a relief scout UM. I 1:54:52.720 --> 1:54:57.160 wore many hats, I was a mediation person, head of 1:54:57.240 --> 1:55:04.360 security UM. And I also organized about seven UM makesuret 1:55:04.760 --> 1:55:09.920 hurricane distribution UH centers from New Orleans to the Bayou 1:55:10.320 --> 1:55:14.720 and I spent eighteen months there and children's free breakfast program, 1:55:15.880 --> 1:55:19.560 anything that the community needed, you know, I provided UM. 1:55:19.600 --> 1:55:22.520 I used to drive like fourteen hundred miles a week 1:55:22.680 --> 1:55:28.800 taking supplies from New Orleans UH into different bious and 1:55:28.920 --> 1:55:32.720 different surrounding areas in New Orleans. That was my my job. 1:55:33.640 --> 1:55:36.640 When I first got there, I ran into Malink Rahim, 1:55:36.720 --> 1:55:40.560 a former black pather in New Orleans, thus Minister of Defense, 1:55:41.680 --> 1:55:45.360 and when I touched down, he had told me that 1:55:45.680 --> 1:55:50.200 there were a group of white vigilantees, up to eighteen 1:55:50.280 --> 1:55:55.320 of them, riding around and murdering black people as they 1:55:55.480 --> 1:55:59.960 walked through these white communities and Algiers and alger Point. 1:56:00.280 --> 1:56:04.720 Algiers wasn't affected by water, but it did have a 1:56:04.800 --> 1:56:08.000 great deal of wind damage. Most of the houses wasn'ttact 1:56:08.200 --> 1:56:11.720 It just wasn't no electricity and the water was also 1:56:11.800 --> 1:56:14.800 a problem. Well, what they would do they would tie 1:56:15.280 --> 1:56:20.040 uh cans from one fence to another beginning of the 1:56:20.800 --> 1:56:24.000 neighborhood of the street. And if they were in their 1:56:24.040 --> 1:56:27.720 homes and uh you bumped in, you know you you 1:56:27.840 --> 1:56:29.720 tried to get up under the cans, and the cans 1:56:29.760 --> 1:56:32.880 started ringing. They would open up windows and and and 1:56:33.040 --> 1:56:37.360 begin uh fire at you. And they were jumping their 1:56:37.400 --> 1:56:42.800 pickup trucks and chase you down. And some uh you know, 1:56:43.520 --> 1:56:46.920 some are murdered, you know, point blank. And those whom 1:56:47.160 --> 1:56:49.280 they wounded, they were throwing the back of the truck. 1:56:49.960 --> 1:56:54.720 Take to a garage and pour gasoline over your wounds, 1:56:55.320 --> 1:56:59.200 put cigarettes out on you, and uh some didn't make 1:56:59.240 --> 1:57:01.840 it out. That's such suation. They like I said, they 1:57:01.960 --> 1:57:04.800 dropped about court and information. When we got they dropped 1:57:04.920 --> 1:57:08.200 nineteen and some black men and the brothers in the 1:57:08.240 --> 1:57:11.760 community got tired of of of these guys, and they 1:57:11.880 --> 1:57:14.440 broke into a pawn shop and stole all the guns 1:57:14.480 --> 1:57:16.400 out the powd shop. And there was about to be 1:57:16.480 --> 1:57:19.920 a major race war. And um, you gotta understand too, 1:57:20.040 --> 1:57:24.480 how tight the situation was because their base, their house. 1:57:24.560 --> 1:57:28.960 The day they hung out at their backyard connected with 1:57:29.080 --> 1:57:32.480 our backyard, so it was extremely tense. So when the 1:57:32.560 --> 1:57:35.120 brothers broke into the pond shop got the weapons out, 1:57:35.400 --> 1:57:39.080 just so happened. The next day the National Guards showed up. 1:57:39.560 --> 1:57:41.840 But if the national Guard didn't show up the next day, 1:57:42.240 --> 1:57:45.960 it would have been extremely ugly out there. Uh and everything. 1:57:46.080 --> 1:57:47.840 And yeah, they used to patrol the streets and the 1:57:47.920 --> 1:57:50.880 pickup trucks. We would see them all the time. I 1:57:50.920 --> 1:57:54.160 would see them all the time. And they were cowards man, 1:57:54.360 --> 1:57:57.360 you know. They would tender one. It's always tender one, 1:57:58.120 --> 1:58:02.720 you know, ten vigilantis the on black man, unharmed black man. 1:58:04.040 --> 1:58:07.440 But we noticed one they would drive by. We would 1:58:07.480 --> 1:58:10.800 come out with our weapons on our hips and let 1:58:10.880 --> 1:58:12.760 them know that this ain't no place to mess with. 1:58:13.000 --> 1:58:14.680 Keep driving. You know what I'm saying. You will be 1:58:14.800 --> 1:58:17.520 fired upon you come here with that business. And I 1:58:17.520 --> 1:58:22.000 would have to set up patrols for our house. At night. UM, 1:58:22.480 --> 1:58:27.520 I would sleep uh in the hallway and malnks home 1:58:28.360 --> 1:58:30.600 with a nominal of me to car being rifle strapped 1:58:30.640 --> 1:58:32.800 across my chest and the radio colm so I could 1:58:32.880 --> 1:58:37.120 keep in contact with the others who were unarmed and 1:58:37.200 --> 1:58:40.800 doing patrols, you know, watching the house while the other 1:58:40.880 --> 1:58:44.560 thirty six volunteers have slept intense in the backyard. You know, 1:58:44.680 --> 1:58:47.640 we're asleep, Lucky for us. They were a bunch of 1:58:47.760 --> 1:58:50.600 cowards and they kept it moving. I would see them 1:58:50.600 --> 1:58:54.840 all the time, and they were they were afraid of 1:58:54.960 --> 1:58:58.440 me because they knew that I was not afraid of them, 1:58:58.480 --> 1:59:01.760 and I was armed, and we all when we had 1:59:01.800 --> 1:59:04.880 a few people back at the house that was armed 1:59:04.880 --> 1:59:10.480 as well. You could ride down certain streets and there 1:59:10.520 --> 1:59:15.080 will be uh dead bodies that were bloated, uh from 1:59:15.120 --> 1:59:18.320 being left out in the sun. And uh those bodies 1:59:18.400 --> 1:59:22.960 were left by the vigilantees. The rumor was that the 1:59:23.480 --> 1:59:26.640 do on the police department told the vigilantees. We gave 1:59:26.720 --> 1:59:29.720 the vigilantees a green light to do what they needed 1:59:29.760 --> 1:59:33.440 to do and as far as the bodies, just leave 1:59:33.520 --> 1:59:35.320 them near the gutter and they will come and collect 1:59:35.400 --> 1:59:38.920 them later, which they didn't. The body stayed out there, 1:59:39.160 --> 1:59:42.120 I would say up to two months, you know you, 1:59:42.560 --> 1:59:44.240 I mean, they were like you can see them all 1:59:44.320 --> 1:59:47.160 the time, and um, there a lot of people had left. 1:59:47.560 --> 1:59:50.560 There wasn't a lot of people there because people had evacuated, 1:59:50.640 --> 1:59:53.800 a lot of stray dogs running around uh in pacts 1:59:53.880 --> 1:59:56.000 of thirty and what we would have to do is 1:59:56.080 --> 1:59:58.640 get up early in the morning when the curfew was over, 1:59:58.880 --> 2:00:03.200 take bids she's from malnks mother's room, and go out 2:00:03.360 --> 2:00:06.360 and wrap up the bodies with these sheets. Keep the 2:00:06.520 --> 2:00:10.000 dogs from ripping them open for fluid and food. Reporting 2:00:10.040 --> 2:00:13.879 in the nation in Republica, investigative journalists A. C. Thompson 2:00:14.000 --> 2:00:17.560 spent months speaking with survivors of Katrina about a racist 2:00:17.640 --> 2:00:21.320 militia that formed in the predominantly white neighborhood of Algierst Point, 2:00:21.920 --> 2:00:24.240 who carried out a series of deadly shootings and even 2:00:24.320 --> 2:00:28.160 worked directly with local law enforcement. White residents told investigators 2:00:28.240 --> 2:00:30.480 the police had given them a green light to shoot 2:00:30.520 --> 2:00:34.800 anyone quote breaking into their property and to quote leave 2:00:34.880 --> 2:00:37.640 the bodies on the side of the road. Others spoke 2:00:37.720 --> 2:00:40.200 of a free for all of white against black where 2:00:40.280 --> 2:00:44.360 whites condulged in violence with impunity. Years later, several white 2:00:44.440 --> 2:00:47.560 vigilanties were found guilty were sentenced to prison time for 2:00:47.680 --> 2:00:52.240 shootings and murder, and like many modern conspiracy theories pushed 2:00:52.280 --> 2:00:55.000 by the far Ride about x FI and BLM. During 2:00:55.000 --> 2:00:58.680 the George Foyd Uprising, the vigilantes and algiers point were 2:00:58.800 --> 2:01:04.440 largely animated by widespread racist rumors that were nutfounded about leaders. Um. 2:01:04.720 --> 2:01:07.520 We were harassed a lot by the and OPD. You 2:01:07.600 --> 2:01:10.280 know a lot of times at gunpoint. They would come 2:01:10.360 --> 2:01:13.840 to our house sometimes you know, ten cars deep in 2:01:13.920 --> 2:01:17.920 op D wood and looking for Malink. One night they 2:01:18.000 --> 2:01:20.560 came through looking for Malink and what we had heard 2:01:20.600 --> 2:01:23.520 that they were out to assassinate him and anybody with him. 2:01:23.640 --> 2:01:26.440 They came out looking for Malink one night, about ten 2:01:26.520 --> 2:01:30.120 cars dep and they had went through the house looking 2:01:30.160 --> 2:01:32.760 for him, and they couldn't find them. And they pulled 2:01:32.800 --> 2:01:36.320 out this fourteen year old young man that we had 2:01:36.400 --> 2:01:40.240 befriended to live on the backstreet for mLink and they 2:01:40.320 --> 2:01:43.080 started beating him, saying that he had stole the cooler 2:01:43.120 --> 2:01:47.040 out somebody's yard and minds you, you know, no one's there, 2:01:47.200 --> 2:01:49.160 so no one's really missing that cool And the young 2:01:49.240 --> 2:01:52.360 man thought, you know, because we didn't have refrigeration and 2:01:52.440 --> 2:01:55.400 we hadn't put everything on ice. You know, ice was 2:01:55.640 --> 2:01:58.800 very important at that time, and the water was very important, 2:01:59.360 --> 2:02:01.400 you know, along with gasoline. But the young brother brought 2:02:01.480 --> 2:02:04.880 us a cooler, and the police put shot guards and 2:02:04.920 --> 2:02:07.600 everybody's stomachs, and they beat them in front of us 2:02:08.200 --> 2:02:10.560 and dared us to do anything. As far as like 2:02:10.680 --> 2:02:13.080 what the environment looked like, it was not and I 2:02:13.280 --> 2:02:17.360 say this, it was not a rescue mission. This was 2:02:17.640 --> 2:02:22.520 seemed like they were running a drill, a military drill, 2:02:22.880 --> 2:02:24.600 you know, like the same hour, I mean, like the 2:02:24.680 --> 2:02:27.000 albat project. You will look at the bridge and you 2:02:27.000 --> 2:02:30.960 will see continue with military cars going across the cresta 2:02:31.040 --> 2:02:35.040 city bridge at nighttime. In four corners of the community. 2:02:35.080 --> 2:02:38.080 You would have black Hawk helicopters patrolling. You know, they 2:02:38.080 --> 2:02:41.680 will follow you through the yard with spotlights. Also, we 2:02:41.840 --> 2:02:47.240 had homeland security, which included mercenaries. They were sometimes up 2:02:47.280 --> 2:02:53.160 to cars and if you were to violate, uh, the curfew, 2:02:53.640 --> 2:02:56.200 they were ride up on you. And they had these 2:02:56.280 --> 2:02:59.000 little and I used to have to interact with them 2:02:59.160 --> 2:03:02.440 because we had some some some young people there. They 2:03:02.480 --> 2:03:05.400 thought they had privileged from up north would translate in 2:03:05.480 --> 2:03:08.160 New Orleans, which it did not. Um they've seen any 2:03:08.200 --> 2:03:10.320 white person outside of New Orleans as a bunch of 2:03:10.760 --> 2:03:13.400 quote unquote nigga levels. So I would have the negotiate 2:03:13.600 --> 2:03:16.520 with these homeless security people. UM, you had to be 2:03:16.680 --> 2:03:21.000 very calm, very still, because you could see the pupils. 2:03:21.160 --> 2:03:24.280 Their pupils were dilated with small anybody that's been in 2:03:24.440 --> 2:03:28.080 war like Vietnam and such an Uh, there's a storm 2:03:28.160 --> 2:03:31.040 they know when these people when the pupils are dilated 2:03:31.120 --> 2:03:34.080 like that, that means these people have killed several times. 2:03:34.680 --> 2:03:37.840 And my huncle used to call it a hundred miles there. 2:03:39.120 --> 2:03:41.120 And you had to be very calm with these people 2:03:41.200 --> 2:03:44.880 because if you flinched, if you did anything that they 2:03:44.960 --> 2:03:47.760 didn't like or they felt threatened in any type of way, 2:03:48.200 --> 2:03:50.520 they will open up fire on you. Um. They were 2:03:50.680 --> 2:03:53.760 they had a R fifteens. All of them had a 2:03:53.920 --> 2:03:56.760 R fifteens and not milling me distrapped to their legs. 2:03:57.000 --> 2:03:59.240 So it was more you know, it's seemed more like 2:03:59.400 --> 2:04:03.040 a military takeover, like I said before, then ar rescue 2:04:03.280 --> 2:04:06.400 and further down the line. For in the months, you 2:04:06.520 --> 2:04:12.600 had National guardsmen that opened fire on people, uh into 2:04:12.720 --> 2:04:17.520 busy traffic. Um. You will find bodies in the seventh ward, 2:04:17.600 --> 2:04:21.560 in the eighth ward in different houses, UH with bullets 2:04:21.600 --> 2:04:24.440 in the back of their head, you know, execution style. 2:04:25.200 --> 2:04:29.120 And um our investigating team will go out and witness 2:04:29.240 --> 2:04:32.560 this firsthand, and I was a part of that investigating team. 2:04:33.000 --> 2:04:35.320 They would do a walk through the house where the 2:04:35.480 --> 2:04:37.760 body was at. It was shot in the back of 2:04:37.800 --> 2:04:41.360 the head, and the rumor was, you know, we had 2:04:41.440 --> 2:04:47.040 some rogue National guardsmen executing you know, people who didn't 2:04:47.080 --> 2:04:51.080 have homes. We're home some homeless people, you know that 2:04:51.160 --> 2:04:55.920 were left behind. Number one lesson I learned uma trainer 2:04:56.720 --> 2:04:59.840 was you may be a pacifist, but you might need 2:04:59.880 --> 2:05:03.440 to passive fists. You may need to go out and 2:05:03.520 --> 2:05:06.680 get you firearms. Of course, we want you to get 2:05:06.760 --> 2:05:09.720 proper training. Of course, we don't want you to do 2:05:09.800 --> 2:05:14.440 anything illegal. Get your legal firearms and get some training. 2:05:15.400 --> 2:05:21.160 The second lesson was that human beings are incredible. We 2:05:21.320 --> 2:05:25.520 saw a lot of destruction, but we also saw a 2:05:25.600 --> 2:05:28.080 lot of beauty and a lot of love. In my 2:05:28.200 --> 2:05:32.600 experience too, we were common ground. People came together in days, 2:05:33.920 --> 2:05:36.760 and we fell in love with each other within days. 2:05:37.520 --> 2:05:40.680 Because of the pressure of the situation. If we didn't 2:05:40.720 --> 2:05:44.560 love each other, if we didn't get along with one another, 2:05:45.200 --> 2:05:49.160 we had to, you know, in order for survival. Things 2:05:49.200 --> 2:05:52.520 were so bad that if your car had broken down 2:05:52.640 --> 2:05:55.360 on the side of the highway on the road you 2:05:55.960 --> 2:05:59.000 had to call us and five different vehicles will be 2:05:59.080 --> 2:06:02.920 speeding to your low cases. Um, you know to see 2:06:02.920 --> 2:06:06.840 who we'll get there first before Homeland Security or a 2:06:06.960 --> 2:06:09.960 vigilante group will roll up on you. You can't rely 2:06:10.080 --> 2:06:14.200 on the state. Can't rely on the state. Stay with 2:06:14.400 --> 2:06:16.840 us as it could happen. Here returns after the short 2:06:16.920 --> 2:06:23.120 break and a word from our sponsors. The same year 2:06:23.200 --> 2:06:27.080 that Sinceria was facing down armed racist vigilantes in New Orleans, 2:06:27.440 --> 2:06:30.320 the stage was also set for an uprising to kick 2:06:30.400 --> 2:06:34.440 off in Toledo, Ohio. In our next interview, Tom tells 2:06:34.520 --> 2:06:38.400 us how a largely black community an archists affiliated with 2:06:38.480 --> 2:06:42.200 anti racist action hit the streets against the National Socialist 2:06:42.240 --> 2:06:46.600 Movement for the NSM and participated in uprising that exploded 2:06:46.960 --> 2:06:49.800 not just against the neo Nazis, but the police that 2:06:49.880 --> 2:06:53.760 were protecting them as well. The Toledo anti racism protests 2:06:54.640 --> 2:06:59.120 really began when a National Socialist Movement member who was 2:06:59.160 --> 2:07:02.920 living in a black neighborhood in Toledo pulled a gun 2:07:03.160 --> 2:07:05.680 on two black children that were playing in the alley 2:07:05.720 --> 2:07:08.120 behind his house. Um. Those kids then went home and 2:07:08.160 --> 2:07:10.520 told their parents. Their parents then showed up to his 2:07:10.680 --> 2:07:13.120 house with weapons. The guy pulled a gun on them 2:07:13.280 --> 2:07:15.960 and then called the National Socialist Movement, who then showed up. 2:07:16.240 --> 2:07:18.640 And so they had been This is back when Bill 2:07:18.680 --> 2:07:20.720 White was still the head of ns M and NSM 2:07:20.800 --> 2:07:22.800 was actually starting to make some headway, like they were 2:07:22.840 --> 2:07:26.600 growing really quickly. They targeted Ohio as a recruiting ground 2:07:27.080 --> 2:07:28.720 UM because they thought that they could gain a lot 2:07:28.720 --> 2:07:30.760 of membership there, and so Toledo was kind of their 2:07:30.800 --> 2:07:33.160 first foray into trying to do stuff in Ohio. And 2:07:33.320 --> 2:07:36.000 so they announced a date and the organizers on the 2:07:36.040 --> 2:07:39.400 ground and Toledo did something really interesting. Then instead of 2:07:40.120 --> 2:07:44.680 organizing activists, they went and organized in the community directly 2:07:44.840 --> 2:07:46.640 UM that they were going around the streets talking to people. 2:07:47.160 --> 2:07:49.640 Street gangs were calling truces for the day, right, and 2:07:49.720 --> 2:07:52.240 so when October fifteenth rolled around, like everybody showed up, 2:07:52.480 --> 2:07:54.600 like there were anarchists there, but there were like tons 2:07:54.640 --> 2:07:57.080 of people from the neighborhood there. The whole protest didn't 2:07:57.160 --> 2:08:00.320 last very long. It was this is October fifteenth and five. 2:08:00.400 --> 2:08:02.080 They sort of n s M was there and they 2:08:02.120 --> 2:08:05.000 had their shields and people were hooking stuff at them, 2:08:05.000 --> 2:08:06.760 but they were kind of too far away to really 2:08:07.000 --> 2:08:10.200 like hit. So the cops started surrounding them and allowing 2:08:10.240 --> 2:08:12.320 them to mark and as they were marching, they got 2:08:12.400 --> 2:08:16.240 within projectile range of people and then started pelting them 2:08:16.280 --> 2:08:18.320 with everything that they could think of. The cops and 2:08:18.400 --> 2:08:21.000 got them to run, got the Nazis to run so 2:08:21.120 --> 2:08:23.000 they could kind of try and get them out of 2:08:23.040 --> 2:08:25.680 the area. A group of people sort of cut back 2:08:25.760 --> 2:08:28.360 behind the school trying and cut them off. I got 2:08:28.440 --> 2:08:31.240 tear gased, and when the tear gas flew, everything just 2:08:32.240 --> 2:08:34.320 got set off. There was rioting on and off for 2:08:34.400 --> 2:08:36.560 like three days in this neighborhood. After this, a bar 2:08:36.720 --> 2:08:39.080 owned by a cop got burned, got looted, and then 2:08:39.120 --> 2:08:41.520 burned to the ground. People trying to burn this Nazi's 2:08:41.520 --> 2:08:44.360 house down. They had to declare state of emergency over this. 2:08:44.800 --> 2:08:46.160 And so there are a number of things that were 2:08:46.160 --> 2:08:48.720 really important about that day. I think for for us, 2:08:49.120 --> 2:08:53.480 one was it really did point to the effectiveness of 2:08:54.040 --> 2:08:57.040 community anti fascist work. People that neighborhood were already mad, 2:08:57.320 --> 2:08:59.840 but it was this sort of like mobilization work which 2:08:59.880 --> 2:09:01.600 was down by people in the neighborhood and also done 2:09:01.640 --> 2:09:03.880 by kind of anarchists that were down in the neighborhood 2:09:03.920 --> 2:09:07.280 working with people to really make that what it was right, 2:09:07.400 --> 2:09:10.080 And it really showed what a community can do when 2:09:10.880 --> 2:09:12.600 Nazis show up in their name, and how much a 2:09:12.640 --> 2:09:16.160 community can reassert its ownership over their space when the 2:09:16.200 --> 2:09:18.800 police decided to protect the Nazis that are attacking their neighborhood. 2:09:19.040 --> 2:09:21.560 But the other thing that really demonstrated that it really 2:09:21.640 --> 2:09:24.360 kind of created was it created a dynamic in Ohio 2:09:24.800 --> 2:09:26.840 which had been sort of building for a little while, 2:09:27.400 --> 2:09:29.440 but you can kind of still feel the ramifications of it. 2:09:29.720 --> 2:09:32.600 So starting with the over the Rhine riots, which I 2:09:32.600 --> 2:09:34.560 think we're in two thousand three or two thousand one, 2:09:34.760 --> 2:09:37.240 when the Cincinnati police killed Timothy Thomas, there had kind 2:09:37.280 --> 2:09:41.840 of been this escalating series of you know, tensions with 2:09:42.280 --> 2:09:44.760 with the state around this period of time. It's also 2:09:44.800 --> 2:09:46.440 the period of time that a lot of Ohio cities 2:09:46.520 --> 2:09:50.120 were sort of beginning. They're the really cute period of 2:09:50.160 --> 2:09:52.440 their decline that they had been sort of declining for 2:09:52.480 --> 2:09:54.440 a while, but this is really when things got bad. 2:09:54.880 --> 2:09:57.240 It was starting really like the early two thousands, mid 2:09:57.280 --> 2:10:01.400 two thousand's um the financial collapse in Cleveland, for example, 2:10:01.480 --> 2:10:04.640 was in two thousand six, um. But it had already 2:10:04.680 --> 2:10:07.200 been sort of going for a couple of years before that, 2:10:08.160 --> 2:10:10.600 and so there were these political conditions that were in 2:10:10.680 --> 2:10:13.879 place that facilitated this. But this also kind of created 2:10:13.960 --> 2:10:18.640 a dynamic of confrontation with the state and created a 2:10:18.720 --> 2:10:23.680 mentality within anarchist communities about being really realistic about what 2:10:23.760 --> 2:10:27.480 those confrontations look like. UM that instead of being idealistic 2:10:27.800 --> 2:10:29.320 sort of like people were in the anti war movement 2:10:29.600 --> 2:10:34.600 and um, sort of approaching police from a perspective of 2:10:34.720 --> 2:10:38.400 ideas and discourse, what we learned during those days is 2:10:38.440 --> 2:10:40.880 that we should probably approach the police as a logistical 2:10:40.960 --> 2:10:43.840 force and understand them as such. Um. It was after 2:10:43.920 --> 2:10:46.800 that point that people really started researching police tactics in 2:10:46.880 --> 2:10:48.880 this area of the country, and that has had really 2:10:48.960 --> 2:10:52.840 profound impacts over the last fifteen years. Right. It really 2:10:52.880 --> 2:10:55.480 did create an entire culture of really digging into those 2:10:55.520 --> 2:10:57.880 kinds of things very carefully and doing it in a 2:10:57.960 --> 2:11:01.960 way which wasn't bombastic, but was focused on actual research. 2:11:02.320 --> 2:11:04.400 The reason that that could happen was what went down 2:11:04.640 --> 2:11:07.200 on those days was so intense. UM. It was the 2:11:07.240 --> 2:11:10.000 first time a lot of people had experienced like full 2:11:10.080 --> 2:11:15.520 blown major rioting before and like major large scale urban 2:11:15.560 --> 2:11:20.120 writing before, and it definitely changed a lot about the 2:11:20.160 --> 2:11:22.400 way that anarchists in this area of the country approached 2:11:22.400 --> 2:11:26.280 things um and you can still feel the the ramifications 2:11:26.320 --> 2:11:28.920 the ripple effects of that today. Stay with us. We're 2:11:28.920 --> 2:11:30.960 gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back 2:11:31.160 --> 2:11:37.360 after these words from our sponsors. In our last segment, 2:11:37.600 --> 2:11:40.400 we're going to speak to anti fascist researcher and author 2:11:40.600 --> 2:11:44.640 Spencer Sunshine. But first, let's rewind the clock to when 2:11:44.680 --> 2:11:47.800 Trump first came in as president in two thousand seventeen, 2:11:48.320 --> 2:11:53.040 kicking off riots, walkouts, and protests around the country, and 2:11:53.200 --> 2:11:56.920 grey protests soon spilled into airports. His people in the 2:11:57.000 --> 2:12:00.480 tens of thousands took action to defeat the Muslim band Um. 2:12:00.520 --> 2:12:03.800 February second, a massive riot kicked off at you see 2:12:03.880 --> 2:12:08.200 Berkeley against the far right troll Milo Napolis, shutting down 2:12:08.320 --> 2:12:11.520 his scheduled talk. The far right responded by holding a 2:12:11.640 --> 2:12:15.080 series of free speech rallies throughout the summer, and anti 2:12:15.200 --> 2:12:18.520 fascists soon found themselves out flanked in the streets by 2:12:18.560 --> 2:12:22.600 a loose coalition of militia members, Proud Boys, Neo Nazis, 2:12:22.720 --> 2:12:25.640 and Alt right groups seeking to seize on this moment. 2:12:25.920 --> 2:12:28.600 The White Nashal swing of the movement called for another 2:12:28.720 --> 2:12:31.760 free speech rally in Charlesville, Virginia, and the scene was 2:12:31.880 --> 2:12:36.400 set for historic and deadly showdown. It was pretty clear, 2:12:36.720 --> 2:12:39.760 especially as the run up to it happened, about how 2:12:39.880 --> 2:12:42.360 big it was going to be, how many different kinds 2:12:42.400 --> 2:12:45.080 of groups were going to be involved, and that for 2:12:45.320 --> 2:12:49.839 the first time, although there had been increasing mobilizations throughout 2:12:49.880 --> 2:12:51.480 the year especially, it was the first one that was 2:12:51.520 --> 2:12:54.520 gonna be led by open fascists. Some of the other 2:12:54.600 --> 2:12:56.960 ones fascists participated in them, but there were more a 2:12:57.040 --> 2:12:59.840 pan far right. We were like pan far right events 2:12:59.880 --> 2:13:02.080 like what happened in Berkeley, but this one was going 2:13:02.120 --> 2:13:04.040 to be led by fascists, and they were all those 2:13:04.080 --> 2:13:06.160 many different kinds of groups, and they were coming out 2:13:06.160 --> 2:13:08.480 of the woodwork. We had old activists who had been 2:13:08.480 --> 2:13:11.080 around in the eighties um who stated they were going 2:13:11.120 --> 2:13:13.400 to come, and there was clearly a lot of energy 2:13:13.480 --> 2:13:16.240 behind it, and it seemed like it was the big bid, 2:13:16.480 --> 2:13:18.760 and there were some of the participants were openly saying 2:13:18.800 --> 2:13:21.400 this it was gonna be the big bid for power 2:13:21.480 --> 2:13:24.000 and legitimacy of the ault right. I believe it was 2:13:24.120 --> 2:13:27.400 Richard Spencer who said, or Matthew Hibeck. I forget which 2:13:27.400 --> 2:13:29.960 one actually said, there's gonna be before Charlotte's Ville and 2:13:30.120 --> 2:13:32.840 after Charlotte's Bille, which was true, but not in the 2:13:32.880 --> 2:13:35.360 way that they hoped for. I think it was a 2:13:35.560 --> 2:13:39.680 success for anti fascists and other people who wanted the 2:13:39.720 --> 2:13:44.240 ault right to wanted that inertia to stop and eventually 2:13:44.920 --> 2:13:49.720 end um. But it was not a success I think 2:13:49.800 --> 2:13:52.280 in the way that people wanted it to be or 2:13:52.480 --> 2:13:55.200 think about it um as a success. It could have 2:13:55.560 --> 2:13:58.560 it was. It could have been a failure very easily 2:13:59.040 --> 2:14:03.080 after the event. The event itself was fairly neutral. I mean, 2:14:03.160 --> 2:14:06.160 there was all the fighting that is in people's minds 2:14:06.240 --> 2:14:08.480 that all happened before the rally was supposed to start. 2:14:08.840 --> 2:14:10.880 That was kind of a draw, which certainly was not 2:14:11.000 --> 2:14:14.080 a success that anti fascists stopped the rally. They did not. 2:14:14.560 --> 2:14:17.280 It did not stop people from entering into the rally grounds. 2:14:17.760 --> 2:14:21.560 The police dispersed it before the rally itself actually started, 2:14:21.640 --> 2:14:24.320 so that can be seen as a success. And then 2:14:24.360 --> 2:14:26.720 the car attack, of course was well in some ways 2:14:26.720 --> 2:14:29.040 a failure for us, and I think at the very beginning, 2:14:29.200 --> 2:14:32.040 many of the fascists, you know, were excited about it, 2:14:32.200 --> 2:14:34.560 like it really did add to their inertia, and the 2:14:34.600 --> 2:14:36.960 whole thing could have been forgotten about very quickly, in 2:14:37.120 --> 2:14:39.400 which case I think it then would have been seen 2:14:39.480 --> 2:14:43.560 as a success for the fascists. If people remember the 2:14:43.640 --> 2:14:47.040 first when it happened, Trump immediately was like, nazis bad. 2:14:47.720 --> 2:14:50.480 And then the next day he made his very fine 2:14:50.520 --> 2:14:53.920 people on both sides comment, and this is what energized 2:14:54.320 --> 2:14:58.320 liberals essentially to condemn him and to jump on the 2:14:58.400 --> 2:15:01.240 bandwagon against him. If he had and said that, this 2:15:01.320 --> 2:15:03.000 could have just sort of passed out of the public 2:15:03.080 --> 2:15:05.760 eye very easily, and it be seen, at least by 2:15:05.840 --> 2:15:09.800 fascists that anti fascists were unable to mobilize enough people 2:15:09.840 --> 2:15:12.600 to stop them, you know, and the only stopping of 2:15:12.680 --> 2:15:15.400 them only happened because the police did it. So I 2:15:15.480 --> 2:15:18.480 think it could have easily been a draw or neutral 2:15:18.720 --> 2:15:22.080 or a failure without Trump's comments. It did end up 2:15:22.120 --> 2:15:26.200 being success because of this backlash against them. It did, 2:15:26.520 --> 2:15:29.520 for whatever reason, did finally bring it to the consciousness 2:15:29.680 --> 2:15:33.400 of people that um this huge rising in the far 2:15:33.560 --> 2:15:36.520 right that Trump had engendered. What it really meant how 2:15:36.640 --> 2:15:38.600 violent it was really going to be, what a threat 2:15:38.680 --> 2:15:42.160 it really was, and it did motivate people two and 2:15:42.240 --> 2:15:44.680 the and the aftermath in particular. Unfortunately, this sort of 2:15:44.720 --> 2:15:47.640 went away fairly quickly to take the streets and come 2:15:47.640 --> 2:15:49.920 out in big numbers and condemned. The alt right, and 2:15:50.040 --> 2:15:53.360 the fascist wing of the right did collapse fairly soon afterwards, 2:15:53.440 --> 2:15:56.240 by spring of the next year. Charlottesvill was real interesting 2:15:56.400 --> 2:15:59.040 because people had been killed by the ult right before it, 2:15:59.400 --> 2:16:02.920 but not in such a dramatic manner, not in public 2:16:02.960 --> 2:16:05.040 and not on video. And it was sort of like, 2:16:05.200 --> 2:16:07.120 I think for people, and I've said this before, I 2:16:07.240 --> 2:16:09.640 kind of you remember the first murders, you remember the 2:16:09.720 --> 2:16:12.120 first blood, and in that sense, because afterwards a lot 2:16:12.160 --> 2:16:15.080 of people were killed during the Trump administration and car attacks. 2:16:15.200 --> 2:16:17.520 I mean, I think a few dozen people during the 2:16:17.520 --> 2:16:21.400 Black Lives Matter demonstrations. It became almost wrote where you're like, oh, 2:16:21.520 --> 2:16:24.800 someone was killed at a demonstration again. But it was 2:16:24.920 --> 2:16:26.840 the shock of this at first, because this had not 2:16:26.960 --> 2:16:29.720 been seen for a very long time in the United States, 2:16:29.760 --> 2:16:32.760 that someone would be murdered at a demonstration, um, and 2:16:32.920 --> 2:16:35.200 that really sort of stuck with people and in that 2:16:35.320 --> 2:16:38.320 way it became a symbol. Um you can even today 2:16:38.440 --> 2:16:42.200 still say Charlottesville unless people are you know, teenagers or something, 2:16:42.320 --> 2:16:46.039 don't remember, people know what you're talking about. Biden invoked 2:16:46.120 --> 2:16:49.119 it when he was running for president. So it's good 2:16:49.280 --> 2:16:53.000 it remains as a symbol of how big the really 2:16:53.040 --> 2:16:57.000 really far right, you know, the fascists can become quite quickly, 2:16:57.560 --> 2:17:01.320 and how violent and murderers they are, and so that 2:17:01.480 --> 2:17:04.360 remains is as symbol to people, I think, and frankly 2:17:04.400 --> 2:17:06.920 that there can be resistance to it. Like people also 2:17:07.040 --> 2:17:10.360 saw there was real resistance and people were willing to 2:17:10.480 --> 2:17:13.800 fight them, and especially after one six like there's no 2:17:13.920 --> 2:17:16.760 more of this idiotic discourse. Bet if it's okay to 2:17:16.800 --> 2:17:19.160 punch and nazi, I really think most people do think 2:17:19.160 --> 2:17:21.720 it's okay now, you know, after they've seen what unfolded 2:17:21.800 --> 2:17:24.960 under the entire arc of Trump from Charlotte'sville to the 2:17:25.120 --> 2:17:27.560 capital takeover. If people had stayed at home, if there 2:17:27.640 --> 2:17:30.280 wasn't the allart the mobile zathent that did occur, it 2:17:30.320 --> 2:17:32.120 would have been a total victory for them. They would 2:17:32.120 --> 2:17:33.880 have taken it as a total victory and then moved 2:17:33.920 --> 2:17:36.519 on to the next thing. And tried something bigger. Absolutely, 2:17:36.760 --> 2:17:39.440 if you held a demonstration and a thousand people came, 2:17:39.640 --> 2:17:41.480 you know, wouldn't you be and you did your thing, 2:17:41.600 --> 2:17:43.760 wouldn't you be like cool? Like, let's move on to 2:17:43.840 --> 2:17:46.280 the next thing that was successful. Over the years and 2:17:46.560 --> 2:17:48.840 I've done more and more activism, I come to realize 2:17:48.920 --> 2:17:52.440 what nothing succeeds as success means, Like once you start going, 2:17:52.920 --> 2:17:55.360 when something succeeds, more people come to it, and you 2:17:55.440 --> 2:17:57.600 can move on and move on as a bigger thing 2:17:57.720 --> 2:17:59.320 and be able to do things you weren't able to 2:17:59.360 --> 2:18:01.680 do before. So this is why I always say we 2:18:01.760 --> 2:18:03.720 need to confront people. We have to break their movement. 2:18:03.760 --> 2:18:06.600 We can't let it jump from either success to success 2:18:06.800 --> 2:18:10.160 or just simply not a failure. Because if you're already 2:18:10.200 --> 2:18:12.120 moving and you hit something that's not a failure, you'll 2:18:12.200 --> 2:18:14.120 just go on to the next thing. Nothing will stop you. 2:18:14.280 --> 2:18:17.920 And we need to need these things to stop. The 2:18:18.080 --> 2:18:21.279 night of Heather Higher was murdered, thousands hit the streets 2:18:21.320 --> 2:18:25.519 and cities across the United States, tearing down Confederate statues 2:18:25.800 --> 2:18:29.320 and marching in solidarity. A few weeks later, when far 2:18:29.440 --> 2:18:32.560 right activists tried to hold a rally in Boston, over 2:18:32.720 --> 2:18:36.360 forty hit the streets to shut it down. A week later, 2:18:36.520 --> 2:18:40.280 in San Francisco and Berkeley, tens of thousands of march 2:18:40.560 --> 2:18:45.080 to shut down more alright rallies. In Berkeley, a black 2:18:45.160 --> 2:18:49.120 block of several hundred strong march information as part of 2:18:49.160 --> 2:18:53.560 a wider anti racist coalition, pushing both far right activists 2:18:53.920 --> 2:18:57.440 and heavily armed riot police out of a downtown park. 2:18:57.840 --> 2:19:01.240 Were only months before far right activists had driven out 2:19:01.360 --> 2:19:04.600 anti fascists. The events of the first eight months of 2:19:04.640 --> 2:19:08.600 the Trump administration showed that there was mass militant opposition 2:19:08.680 --> 2:19:11.080 on the streets of the US against the far right, 2:19:11.360 --> 2:19:14.880 which destabilized the Trump regime and made it back pedal. 2:19:15.280 --> 2:19:18.360 But more importantly, it showed millions of people across the 2:19:18.440 --> 2:19:22.440 country the resistance was possible. That is going to do 2:19:22.520 --> 2:19:25.080 it for us today follow i g D at It's 2:19:25.120 --> 2:19:27.720 going Down dot org and on masodon at i g 2:19:27.879 --> 2:19:31.040 D Underscore News. Thanks so much for tuning in and 2:19:31.160 --> 2:19:33.480 be sure to come back next time as it could 2:19:33.520 --> 2:19:36.440 happen here returns. We will continue to tread where we 2:19:36.560 --> 2:19:49.320 please into the fascist No passan Hi have one, It's 2:19:49.360 --> 2:19:52.080 meet James and just before we start today we're going 2:19:52.120 --> 2:19:56.320 to discuss in quite some detail the being to death 2:19:56.480 --> 2:20:00.280 of Tyry Nichols by the police in Memphis. And if 2:20:00.360 --> 2:20:02.600 you don't want to hear that detail, that's totally fine, 2:20:02.680 --> 2:20:05.000 But we wanted to let you know now so that 2:20:05.160 --> 2:20:08.119 you didn't get surprised by it and your money commute 2:20:08.200 --> 2:20:09.680 or whatever. So if you want to skip this one, 2:20:09.720 --> 2:20:12.560 if you don't listen to that one, then we are 2:20:12.640 --> 2:20:21.760 trying to give you that warning ahead of time. Discourse discourse. 2:20:22.680 --> 2:20:27.119 Discourse is about podcast. I don't know it could happen. 2:20:27.240 --> 2:20:32.280 Here is the podcast that you're listening to. Uh. If 2:20:32.400 --> 2:20:36.040 you came here list looking for another podcast, then you 2:20:36.200 --> 2:20:38.240 fucked up, But you sucked up in a good way 2:20:38.640 --> 2:20:42.840 because that podcast was trash. Thank you for being here 2:20:42.879 --> 2:20:46.879 with us today. Who all? Who all? Who? Who? Who's here? 2:20:46.920 --> 2:20:50.920 Who are you people? We're a little unsure. Yeah, I'm 2:20:50.959 --> 2:20:55.640 the along, I'm here. Wow, I'm I'm James. I'm a 2:20:55.640 --> 2:20:57.720 little unsure about who I am beyond that, but that's 2:20:57.760 --> 2:21:01.280 who I am. It's okay. I'm Garrison Davis and I'm 2:21:01.320 --> 2:21:04.440 here to engage in discourse. I there's nothing I love 2:21:05.080 --> 2:21:09.240 more than discourse. Um. Speaking of discourse. Today we're gonna 2:21:09.280 --> 2:21:14.240 be talking about, well, I don't know, it's not really discourse, 2:21:14.480 --> 2:21:17.200 but today we're gonna be talking about the reaction to 2:21:17.879 --> 2:21:23.560 the video of the Memphis police murdering Tyrene Nichols. In particularly, 2:21:24.000 --> 2:21:27.320 we're gonna be talking about the way in which kind 2:21:27.360 --> 2:21:31.119 of the left responded to this, both online and kind 2:21:31.160 --> 2:21:34.520 of public channels and actually in the streets, because I 2:21:34.600 --> 2:21:37.760 think there's some interesting stuff here, um, and I think 2:21:37.800 --> 2:21:41.080 it's kind of worth analyzing outside of uh, you know, 2:21:41.200 --> 2:21:45.200 the broader conversation about police violence and you know, uh 2:21:45.720 --> 2:21:48.240 that sort of thing, because I think there's some interesting, 2:21:48.360 --> 2:21:52.880 sort of tactical stuff to kind of talk about here. UM. 2:21:53.320 --> 2:21:56.000 And yeah, that's that's that's what we're going to be 2:21:56.080 --> 2:22:00.240 doing today. UM. In case you've been kind of stuck 2:22:00.280 --> 2:22:02.920 under a rock, uh, you should probably be aware that 2:22:03.080 --> 2:22:08.160 on January seven, police from the Memphis p D Scorpion Unit, 2:22:08.280 --> 2:22:11.480 which was a unit with a very sinister name that 2:22:11.600 --> 2:22:16.920 existed to effectively over police UM a chunk of the 2:22:17.000 --> 2:22:21.640 city of Memphis. Uh yeah, UM, pulled over Tyree Nichols, 2:22:21.720 --> 2:22:24.880 a twenty nine year old black man. Uh. Tyree was 2:22:24.959 --> 2:22:30.880 an amateur photographer. UM. He liked skating, he had Crohn's disease. UM, 2:22:31.120 --> 2:22:34.600 he was just driving around that night. UH. And the encounter, 2:22:35.080 --> 2:22:37.480 as we would later see on the video, went pretty 2:22:37.560 --> 2:22:40.720 much immediately violent on behalf of the police. Nichols was 2:22:40.800 --> 2:22:43.400 beaten very badly. UH. And he died in the hospital 2:22:43.480 --> 2:22:46.360 three days later. And for the first few days after 2:22:46.440 --> 2:22:49.760 the killing, obviously, you know this happened, the police did this, 2:22:50.040 --> 2:22:52.920 and then rumors started kind of spreading in the immediate 2:22:53.040 --> 2:22:55.440 wake of the beating, but very little was known for 2:22:55.520 --> 2:22:59.600 certain about like what had happened, UM, about you know what, 2:23:00.280 --> 2:23:04.240 why this had had gotten escalated so quickly. UM. One 2:23:04.280 --> 2:23:06.920 of the first kind of signs that this was going 2:23:07.000 --> 2:23:10.560 to become a thing on the national uh in terms 2:23:10.600 --> 2:23:13.440 of like the national attention span, was when the Tennessee 2:23:13.560 --> 2:23:16.040 Bureau of Investigation in the U. S. Department of Justice 2:23:16.160 --> 2:23:21.119 independently opened investigations into the beating. UM after reviewing body 2:23:21.160 --> 2:23:24.880 camera footage from multiple officers on scene. Five Memphis p 2:23:25.000 --> 2:23:28.680 D officers were dismissed on January. Three days later, an 2:23:28.720 --> 2:23:32.560 autopsy commissioned by Tyrese family found extensive bleeding caused by 2:23:32.640 --> 2:23:36.160 a severe beating outrage around the killing grew rapidly, and 2:23:36.240 --> 2:23:38.480 it was announced by the Memphis Police that body camera 2:23:38.520 --> 2:23:40.680 footage of the stop and of the beating would be 2:23:40.800 --> 2:23:44.520 released to the public. Uh. This started the rumor mill 2:23:44.640 --> 2:23:48.280 really churning up. UM. There was kind of a couple 2:23:48.360 --> 2:23:50.560 of leaks from people who had seen the footage, I 2:23:50.640 --> 2:23:52.480 think who were close to the case, and they all 2:23:52.520 --> 2:23:55.040 sort of described it as uniquely bad. The term that 2:23:55.120 --> 2:23:57.160 I heard a lot was that it's worse than the 2:23:57.240 --> 2:24:00.640 Rodney King beating. UM. This is just the way in 2:24:00.680 --> 2:24:03.280 which people started talking about it. And as more details 2:24:03.320 --> 2:24:07.040 filtered out, there were conversations around the country, particularly folks 2:24:07.120 --> 2:24:09.720 on the activists left, who started talking about the need 2:24:09.800 --> 2:24:12.199 to prepare for what they suspected would be the aftermath 2:24:12.280 --> 2:24:15.280 of the video's release. UM. And one of the things 2:24:15.360 --> 2:24:17.960 that was kind of kind of worth discussing here is 2:24:18.000 --> 2:24:22.000 that in the immediate like immediately before the video came out, 2:24:22.440 --> 2:24:24.720 a lot of the conversations that people on the left 2:24:24.760 --> 2:24:26.920 we're having and that people in law enforcement we're having, 2:24:27.320 --> 2:24:30.640 kind of focused around the same expectations, which was that 2:24:30.840 --> 2:24:33.959 there would be widespread protests and rioting as a result 2:24:34.040 --> 2:24:37.400 of the release of this video. UM. Police departments around 2:24:37.440 --> 2:24:40.680 the country entered high alert. Riot squads were prepped. Um, 2:24:40.879 --> 2:24:42.560 and then kind of on the other side of things 2:24:42.640 --> 2:24:44.960 and sort of open channels on Twitter and massed on 2:24:45.080 --> 2:24:47.600 and in person, and a number of of of different 2:24:47.640 --> 2:24:50.800 cases leftists and people you know who claimed to be 2:24:50.879 --> 2:24:54.560 that online talked about their expectations too. I heard variations 2:24:54.640 --> 2:24:56.480 of the phrase, you know, it's going to be a 2:24:56.520 --> 2:24:58.560 really hot year. This is going to like lead into 2:24:58.640 --> 2:25:01.480 a particularly aggressive Some are on the ground, people are 2:25:01.520 --> 2:25:03.880 going to make the burning of that precinct in Minneapolis 2:25:04.200 --> 2:25:06.440 look tame. You know, get your gear together, check in 2:25:06.520 --> 2:25:09.720 with your friends. Everything's about to go off. Um. There 2:25:09.840 --> 2:25:12.440 was a lot of chatter kind of along those lines, 2:25:12.560 --> 2:25:17.320 and I don't know, I didn't really speak up too 2:25:17.440 --> 2:25:20.720 much about this, but my kind of thinking, as folks 2:25:20.800 --> 2:25:24.040 were sort of anticipating the reaction to this was I 2:25:24.200 --> 2:25:28.080 suspected that the actual reaction on a mass scale to 2:25:28.120 --> 2:25:30.280 the video's release was going to be more muted and 2:25:30.440 --> 2:25:33.160 law abiding than than people were expecting at the time. 2:25:33.800 --> 2:25:35.880 And I guess the primary reason that I felt this 2:25:35.920 --> 2:25:38.080 way was simply that kind of the vibes were off. 2:25:38.200 --> 2:25:41.480 It just didn't feel like folks were ready for that 2:25:41.640 --> 2:25:44.160 kind of a response. Um, but I do kind of 2:25:44.240 --> 2:25:46.760 have a fact based reason for why I was anticipating 2:25:46.800 --> 2:25:50.480 that as well. UM. On January, two days before the 2:25:50.560 --> 2:25:53.440 video's release, five Memphis p D officers were arrested and 2:25:53.560 --> 2:25:57.119 charged with murder, kidnapping, assault, a bevy of very serious charges. 2:25:57.480 --> 2:26:00.400 Immediately after that, three firefighters to E. M. Tease and 2:26:00.480 --> 2:26:02.760 a police lieutenant who had been on scene after the 2:26:02.800 --> 2:26:05.720 beating were fired for failing to assess and provide emergency 2:26:05.760 --> 2:26:08.200 care to Nichols on scene. And there's a couple of 2:26:08.240 --> 2:26:10.120 ways to view what happened here. I think the less 2:26:10.120 --> 2:26:13.080 optimistic one is that the state simply made a pragmatic 2:26:13.160 --> 2:26:16.359 decision to throw these guys onto the bus. That's definitely 2:26:16.440 --> 2:26:19.640 what happened. The more optimistic way to look at this 2:26:19.800 --> 2:26:22.320 is that because people had rioted so hard for so 2:26:22.520 --> 2:26:24.960 long in the wake of George Floyd's murder, the state 2:26:25.080 --> 2:26:27.200 felt like it had to throw these guys under the 2:26:27.280 --> 2:26:30.600 bus rather than, you know, risk another year of rage. 2:26:31.000 --> 2:26:32.840 And this is also correct. I think both of these 2:26:32.879 --> 2:26:36.039 things are are pretty accurate ways to look at what happened. 2:26:36.680 --> 2:26:38.720 The idea that the release of the footage of Tyree's 2:26:38.800 --> 2:26:41.600 murder would lead to massive protests. Was not quite universal, 2:26:41.680 --> 2:26:43.240 but I didn't notice that a lot of the people 2:26:43.280 --> 2:26:46.760 who felt similarly to me expressed the belief that if 2:26:46.840 --> 2:26:50.040 people didn't riot over what had happened to Tyree, that 2:26:50.160 --> 2:26:52.720 was due to a mix of liberal cowardice and racism, 2:26:52.760 --> 2:26:55.000 since most of the officers who beat Tyree to death 2:26:55.040 --> 2:26:57.680 were themselves black. And I think this is kind of 2:26:57.720 --> 2:27:00.199 a short sighted and unfair take, and I'll talk about 2:27:00.240 --> 2:27:05.280 why shortly. On January Friday, the Tyree Nichols videos were 2:27:05.320 --> 2:27:08.520 released by the Memphis Police Department UM, along with a 2:27:08.600 --> 2:27:11.480 lot of you. I watched them all immediately, UM, and 2:27:11.600 --> 2:27:14.039 you can find there's a description on my Twitter page. 2:27:14.080 --> 2:27:16.920 It's turned currently pinned to my profile of the video 2:27:17.120 --> 2:27:19.000 if you haven't seen it but want to know what 2:27:19.120 --> 2:27:21.920 happened there. UM To kind of summarize it in brief, 2:27:21.959 --> 2:27:25.120 it's it's very ugly. Uh. Tyree is immediately calm as 2:27:25.160 --> 2:27:27.880 he's pulled over and taken from his car. The police 2:27:27.879 --> 2:27:31.280 are not calm. He attempts to de escalate them. They 2:27:31.360 --> 2:27:34.800 accuse him falsely of resisting, then they mace him and themselves. 2:27:35.640 --> 2:27:38.280 I think in general that The inciting incident for the 2:27:38.360 --> 2:27:41.279 beating was the incompetent use of mace by these officers. 2:27:41.400 --> 2:27:43.800 They hurt themselves, they got pissed, and then they beat 2:27:43.920 --> 2:27:48.320 Tyree because they were angry at themselves for macing themselves. UM. 2:27:48.760 --> 2:27:51.600 It's also kind of worth noting that a white officer 2:27:51.640 --> 2:27:54.360 who has since been fired as well, also deployed his 2:27:54.440 --> 2:27:56.760 taser on the young man. There's been some kind of 2:27:57.080 --> 2:27:58.560 this was kind of left out of a lot of 2:27:58.600 --> 2:28:01.600 the initial summaries of what had happened. Uh, that guy 2:28:01.720 --> 2:28:05.520 has now been fired. UM, and yeah, it's it's bad. 2:28:05.640 --> 2:28:08.760 The video is is very unpleasant and very brutal. UM. 2:28:09.040 --> 2:28:10.960 Watching it, though, I think kind of the thing that 2:28:11.000 --> 2:28:14.080 struck me most was how much like a normal traffic 2:28:14.160 --> 2:28:17.640 stop a lot of this was. UM. I think that 2:28:17.840 --> 2:28:20.200 if you know, they had gone a little bit less 2:28:20.240 --> 2:28:22.280 hard and beating him a little less badly and he 2:28:22.400 --> 2:28:25.279 had survived, they probably would have charged him with resisting 2:28:25.400 --> 2:28:28.800 arrest and assault on a police officer. UM. And who 2:28:28.879 --> 2:28:31.280 knows how the case would have gone. You can hear 2:28:31.320 --> 2:28:34.400 the police preparing for this eventuality in the footage. One 2:28:34.440 --> 2:28:36.880 officer claims that Tyree went for his gun there's no 2:28:37.000 --> 2:28:39.440 evidence of this in the footage, uh, And you can 2:28:39.520 --> 2:28:41.360 kind of hear them all working to get their stories 2:28:41.400 --> 2:28:45.080 straight after they beat tyree Um for the inevitable court case, 2:28:45.879 --> 2:28:49.160 more officers an emergency personnel arrive on scene as he's 2:28:49.240 --> 2:28:51.480 just kind of laying there, and none of them seemed 2:28:51.480 --> 2:28:55.640 to find what's happened peculiar or noteworthy, which is interesting 2:28:55.720 --> 2:28:59.040 because immediately prior to the video's release, police departments around 2:28:59.080 --> 2:29:02.720 the country all shoot statements that were basically identical, condemning 2:29:02.760 --> 2:29:06.160 the officers who had beaten nichols Um, saying basically, this 2:29:06.400 --> 2:29:10.120 behavior is unacceptable. These men are bad apples. This is 2:29:10.240 --> 2:29:13.440 like an extreme example that does not represent policing values. 2:29:13.640 --> 2:29:16.959 And there's a couple of things that are are interesting 2:29:17.000 --> 2:29:20.400 about this. One of them is that the actual way 2:29:20.480 --> 2:29:24.720 in which emergency responders on scene treated the beating kind 2:29:24.800 --> 2:29:27.400 of puts the lie to that, because nobody acts as 2:29:27.440 --> 2:29:30.520 if anything outside of the normal has occurred. And the 2:29:30.600 --> 2:29:33.480 other thing that is noteworthy is the uniformity of these 2:29:33.720 --> 2:29:36.640 these messages by police departments around the country. I have 2:29:36.800 --> 2:29:39.400 not actually seen that happen before. There was kind of 2:29:39.440 --> 2:29:41.600 a version of this that occurred in the wake of 2:29:41.720 --> 2:29:45.400 the George Floyd video, but it was much more cohesive 2:29:46.520 --> 2:29:50.360 prior to the release of the Tyree Nichols video. UM. 2:29:50.760 --> 2:29:53.160 That said, there were no widespread riots or acts of 2:29:53.200 --> 2:29:56.480 property destruction. After the video was released. There were protests 2:29:56.520 --> 2:29:59.400 in a number of cities, most notably in Memphis, UM, 2:29:59.680 --> 2:30:03.800 but compared to things were very subdued. There was not 2:30:04.040 --> 2:30:08.160 kind of widespread property destruction or rioting in Portland, which 2:30:08.240 --> 2:30:11.040 was obviously the site of intense radical street actions. In 2:30:11.840 --> 2:30:15.360 there were two fairly small marches. UM. I'm not gonna 2:30:15.959 --> 2:30:19.440 delve into this in tremendous detail, but there were kind 2:30:19.480 --> 2:30:22.920 of allegations from one of the marches that the larger 2:30:23.000 --> 2:30:25.240 and less radical of the two was an op designed 2:30:25.280 --> 2:30:27.520 to take numbers and energy away from the radical march. 2:30:27.600 --> 2:30:31.200 There were confrontations between members of both groups, and while 2:30:31.240 --> 2:30:33.840 the overall story, again is not worth spending time on, 2:30:34.240 --> 2:30:36.520 the gist of it is that very little happened. Now 2:30:36.840 --> 2:30:40.120 this is not kind of limited to Portland. Atlanta, Georgia 2:30:40.560 --> 2:30:42.800 is probably the city in the US today that's been 2:30:42.840 --> 2:30:45.520 the center of the most effective radical protests against law 2:30:45.600 --> 2:30:48.560 enforcement and the history of attempts to stop and sabotage. 2:30:48.680 --> 2:30:51.840 The construction of Cops City, which is obviously a massive 2:30:51.879 --> 2:30:55.240 police training compound in Atlanta's largest urban forest, has been 2:30:55.280 --> 2:30:58.560 well documented by by Garrison Davis UM as well as 2:30:58.560 --> 2:31:01.000 a number of other reporters. UM. I do think it's 2:31:01.040 --> 2:31:03.800 worth noting that days before the Nichols video was released, 2:31:03.920 --> 2:31:07.880 Atlanta police shot and killed the forest defender Tortuguia, and 2:31:08.000 --> 2:31:11.880 a moderately large protest followed, where protesters smashing windows and 2:31:12.000 --> 2:31:15.040 lighting one cop car on fire. This was the kind 2:31:15.120 --> 2:31:18.440 of action that I think most of the activists I 2:31:18.560 --> 2:31:21.560 observed expected in the wake of the Nichols video as well, 2:31:21.920 --> 2:31:24.160 but we simply didn't see that. I'm just going to 2:31:24.280 --> 2:31:26.640 butt in here for a little bit and you'll you'll 2:31:26.920 --> 2:31:30.200 you'll hear more about that riot slash protest in Atlanta 2:31:30.640 --> 2:31:33.680 next week. UM. I'm putting together a series on it 2:31:33.800 --> 2:31:37.600 that'll that'll be out soon. But definitely one of the 2:31:37.800 --> 2:31:42.840 things that was talked about a lot in Atlanta was 2:31:43.440 --> 2:31:47.840 the upcoming release of this video and the potentiality of 2:31:48.520 --> 2:31:52.000 this video getting released shortly after the death of Tortuguita 2:31:52.080 --> 2:31:54.480 at the hands of police. Kind of both of these 2:31:54.520 --> 2:31:57.320 things feeding off each other. Into a into a similar 2:31:57.440 --> 2:32:02.840 like level UH uprising, and this was like no one 2:32:03.000 --> 2:32:05.360 was like for sure about this, Like no one was 2:32:05.440 --> 2:32:08.160 like saying, this is absolutely definitely gonna happen, But it 2:32:08.280 --> 2:32:11.560 was something that was definitely thought about. UM, it was 2:32:11.640 --> 2:32:15.480 something that was definitely considered. I think, honestly, if the 2:32:16.400 --> 2:32:19.520 the video was set to come out originally on like 2:32:20.040 --> 2:32:26.800 the Monday or Tuesday following the big downtown protest in Atlanta, UM, 2:32:26.920 --> 2:32:28.600 it was supposed to come out just a few days later, 2:32:29.040 --> 2:32:31.880 and that that didn't happen. It was delayed once again 2:32:32.000 --> 2:32:35.640 for further further into the week. UM. I think if 2:32:35.720 --> 2:32:38.680 it came out sooner, I think that could have fed 2:32:38.720 --> 2:32:41.680 off momentum in a pretty considerable way. I think a 2:32:41.760 --> 2:32:44.560 few things happened both in Atlanta that in the in 2:32:44.640 --> 2:32:49.480 the next few days that kind of stunted possible possible 2:32:49.959 --> 2:32:54.800 for their protest. UM National Guard was deployed, UM police 2:32:54.800 --> 2:32:58.680 and Savannah were ordered to start arresting people and shutting 2:32:58.760 --> 2:33:03.560 down gatherings of over teen UH specifically for like including vigils, 2:33:04.120 --> 2:33:07.440 and in Atlanta, obviously there was people getting really pretty 2:33:07.560 --> 2:33:11.840 pretty inflated, UH high level felonies and domestic and domestic 2:33:11.920 --> 2:33:15.080 terrorism charges simply for being simply for being present at 2:33:15.120 --> 2:33:18.000 a protest UM. So I think those those things kind 2:33:18.040 --> 2:33:23.800 of all in all impacted people's ability to like prepare 2:33:23.959 --> 2:33:28.320 for you know, a sequence of protests which there was 2:33:28.400 --> 2:33:31.080 someone there was someone in l a for for like 2:33:31.520 --> 2:33:33.760 a day or two. The ones in Memphis were pretty big, 2:33:34.120 --> 2:33:38.600 but I think they the the timeline in which they 2:33:38.680 --> 2:33:42.760 released the video is definitely should be considered in terms 2:33:42.800 --> 2:33:45.840 of when they chose to release it um to like 2:33:47.959 --> 2:33:51.680 in terms of like the state's goal of preventing you know, 2:33:52.320 --> 2:33:55.080 large large scale protests. But that was definitely something that 2:33:55.160 --> 2:33:58.720 was talked about a lot, uh during during like the 2:33:59.480 --> 2:34:01.120 little over a week that I was that I was 2:34:01.160 --> 2:34:03.680 in Atlantis, because everyone was getting ready for this. Like 2:34:03.800 --> 2:34:06.760 everyone heard that this is going to be like the 2:34:06.800 --> 2:34:09.480 worst of video that we've seen since Rodney King. Like 2:34:09.520 --> 2:34:12.480 that that that that was the way it was. It 2:34:12.640 --> 2:34:15.200 was thought up of like on the ground, you know, 2:34:15.280 --> 2:34:19.800 just like word of mouth being being passed um, and 2:34:20.040 --> 2:34:24.600 people were definitely like preparing for like preparing themselves for it, 2:34:24.760 --> 2:34:27.600 like like like thinking like thinking about like what's going 2:34:27.640 --> 2:34:30.600 to happen if this is like if this really is 2:34:30.640 --> 2:34:34.120 the most horrific thing. What is the appropriate response to that? 2:34:35.200 --> 2:34:36.920 And and this is kind of a lot of what 2:34:37.000 --> 2:34:40.200 I wanted to talk around, because you have sort of 2:34:40.920 --> 2:34:45.199 Georgia law enforcement, there's this this riot, and the response 2:34:45.280 --> 2:34:47.320 to that as well as the response to the tree 2:34:47.360 --> 2:34:50.640 set is a series of domestic terrorism charges. Um. And 2:34:50.720 --> 2:34:54.320 then this video comes out and there's not a mass, 2:34:54.959 --> 2:34:58.520 like radical street response to it, and it it seems 2:34:58.600 --> 2:35:00.000 to me and Garrison you can correct me if I'm 2:35:00.040 --> 2:35:02.520 wrong that a big part of that is people in 2:35:03.000 --> 2:35:06.920 Atlanta were kind of not willing to throw more lives 2:35:07.200 --> 2:35:11.760 and bodies at the police without kind of more of 2:35:11.800 --> 2:35:14.160 a cohesive plan of what to do given the severity 2:35:14.200 --> 2:35:17.240 of the repression that that was being engaged in. I mean, 2:35:17.640 --> 2:35:22.080 obviously can't comment on people's yeah, the motivations or like 2:35:22.360 --> 2:35:25.040 plans for for for stuff, because that's not something that 2:35:25.120 --> 2:35:28.880 I would be would be privy privy to. Yeah. Um, 2:35:29.680 --> 2:35:33.560 so I I don't know, there's there's there's a lot 2:35:33.600 --> 2:35:35.879 of stuff. I mean, like, I think a big part 2:35:35.920 --> 2:35:38.279 of why I heard a lot about it in Atlanta 2:35:38.440 --> 2:35:41.080 was one because of a friend of a lot of 2:35:41.440 --> 2:35:43.560 people who were involved in the force in the force 2:35:43.640 --> 2:35:46.680 events got killed by police a few days earlier. And two. 2:35:47.280 --> 2:35:50.040 Memphis is only a few hours away from Atlanta, but like, 2:35:50.200 --> 2:35:52.520 it's it's it's not it's it's it's not that far, 2:35:52.680 --> 2:35:54.800 and it's a big part of the stuff in Atlanta 2:35:55.040 --> 2:35:58.720 is like solidarity with struggles that are not just in 2:35:58.800 --> 2:36:02.480 your immediate vicinity. And you could argue that Memphis really 2:36:02.600 --> 2:36:06.200 is in the immediate vicinity of Georgia. Um, but like 2:36:06.480 --> 2:36:12.760 that that type of cross cross state solidarity is is 2:36:12.800 --> 2:36:16.560 a big part um. But yeah, I can I I 2:36:16.920 --> 2:36:20.480 could not comment on on on why why people did 2:36:20.600 --> 2:36:23.119 or did not choose to do specific things. I think 2:36:23.160 --> 2:36:27.279 that that's that's up for people themselves. Yeah, I wouldn't 2:36:27.320 --> 2:36:29.360 want to put words into anyone's mouth. But it was 2:36:29.440 --> 2:36:31.959 kind of interesting because I I paid attention a lot 2:36:32.080 --> 2:36:34.320 to the reaction, and there were a lot of folks 2:36:34.480 --> 2:36:38.240 talking about how disheartening it was that there were not 2:36:38.520 --> 2:36:42.240 more of the kind of radical actions that they wanted 2:36:42.280 --> 2:36:44.480 to see in the wake of the video coming out, 2:36:44.560 --> 2:36:47.240 And I'm that's kind of the thing I wanted sort 2:36:47.280 --> 2:36:49.840 of to talk most around because I feel very mixed 2:36:49.920 --> 2:36:54.360 around this. But broadly speaking, I guess I'm glad that 2:36:54.520 --> 2:36:57.000 we didn't see a repeat of the part of that 2:36:57.160 --> 2:37:00.840 was folks standing up in front of cops shops until 2:37:01.320 --> 2:37:04.199 riot police came in and getting charges against them, because 2:37:04.200 --> 2:37:07.840 I just don't think that that works right now. I 2:37:07.840 --> 2:37:11.440 don't think it works is functional anymore. Um, I don't 2:37:11.480 --> 2:37:16.520 think it actually hurts the state because the reaction, like 2:37:17.320 --> 2:37:20.240 there was a period of time early in those first 2:37:20.280 --> 2:37:23.000 couple of months in particular, where you could see the 2:37:23.080 --> 2:37:26.320 police were off balance. Obviously in like Minneapolis with the 2:37:26.360 --> 2:37:28.600 burning of the Third Precinct was was this kind of 2:37:28.680 --> 2:37:31.640 sea change moment um, but you could see it in 2:37:31.680 --> 2:37:34.280 a number of cities that like they didn't really know 2:37:34.400 --> 2:37:36.760 what was going on, and they were themselves concerned with 2:37:36.840 --> 2:37:39.600 how out of control the situation had gotten. And then 2:37:40.240 --> 2:37:42.880 it kind of morphed later in the year to I 2:37:43.000 --> 2:37:45.280 think a situation they could control very well where there 2:37:45.320 --> 2:37:49.120 were these acts of fairly minor property destruction and then 2:37:49.320 --> 2:37:51.400 a bunch of people would get picked up and charged. 2:37:51.600 --> 2:37:55.200 And I I think that while I understand like the 2:37:55.280 --> 2:37:59.160 desire to react that way and to do something um 2:38:00.040 --> 2:38:03.880 kind of very firm and uh and radical in response 2:38:03.959 --> 2:38:08.240 to state violence like this, I'm also like deeply concerned 2:38:08.400 --> 2:38:12.560 about people not throwing away months and years of their 2:38:12.600 --> 2:38:15.240 lives fighting charges. Yeah. I mean a big part of 2:38:15.280 --> 2:38:20.959 it is is people learning that treating protesters as disposable 2:38:21.600 --> 2:38:23.920 meat bags to throw against the wall of the state 2:38:24.320 --> 2:38:27.400 is kind of a bad idea. Um. And there's I 2:38:27.520 --> 2:38:31.360 think this is something that that that was talked about 2:38:31.400 --> 2:38:35.960 in conversations just just like regarding like, hey, this video 2:38:36.040 --> 2:38:37.400 is going to come out, what do you think it's 2:38:37.440 --> 2:38:39.240 going to happen. Like there's just a lot of the casual, 2:38:39.280 --> 2:38:44.840 casual conversations, but like there was a lot to make happened. 2:38:44.959 --> 2:38:49.600 A lot of things contributed to the intensity and the 2:38:49.760 --> 2:38:54.360 length of those protests. I think, uh, COVID being a 2:38:54.560 --> 2:38:57.560 pretty big part. This was a few months into the pandemic. 2:38:57.800 --> 2:39:00.200 People have been stuck in their homes now for a 2:39:00.280 --> 2:39:02.680 few months and not really like prepared for that. Like 2:39:02.840 --> 2:39:05.280 at this at this point, we're kind of we're all 2:39:05.360 --> 2:39:06.800 kind of used to being in our house a lot 2:39:06.879 --> 2:39:10.200 more now, but back then it was it was new 2:39:10.320 --> 2:39:13.400 for a lot of people. So I think the opportity, 2:39:13.480 --> 2:39:15.640 the opportunity to get out of the house for what 2:39:15.760 --> 2:39:18.240 seemed like an important reason I think was a really 2:39:18.360 --> 2:39:22.600 big part of people being out of a lot of 2:39:22.640 --> 2:39:25.000 work was a really big part of because a lot 2:39:25.040 --> 2:39:27.680 of people did did not have the types of jobs 2:39:27.720 --> 2:39:29.560 that they might have now, did not have the jobs 2:39:29.640 --> 2:39:34.200 they had like in like the months before. It's maybe 2:39:34.440 --> 2:39:37.040 because I can't really think of another example like this 2:39:37.200 --> 2:39:41.240 from history. Obviously a lot of uprisings occur when people 2:39:41.280 --> 2:39:43.160 are suddenly out of work, but this was a mix 2:39:43.240 --> 2:39:45.720 of people are suddenly out of work and they suddenly 2:39:45.760 --> 2:39:51.080 they all have cash like that, that which contributed in 2:39:51.160 --> 2:39:53.160 a lot of ways because like that, that was I 2:39:53.240 --> 2:39:56.000 think what funded a lot of you know, people bringing 2:39:56.040 --> 2:39:58.640 in food and people bringing in like pallets of water 2:39:58.879 --> 2:40:01.160 and getting gas mask and stuff. Is they had these 2:40:01.240 --> 2:40:04.280 sort of checks for you know, as a result of 2:40:04.360 --> 2:40:08.200 like COVID relief, which was an interesting situation as well 2:40:08.280 --> 2:40:11.640 that hasn't been replicated since. I think there's there's another 2:40:11.959 --> 2:40:14.520 very important factor of this that doesn't get talked about 2:40:14.520 --> 2:40:17.080 that much, which is just the weather. Like if if 2:40:17.200 --> 2:40:18.879 if you if you, if you go back and look 2:40:18.959 --> 2:40:22.280 at when the largest police like largest anti police protests 2:40:22.360 --> 2:40:24.960 in the US have happened, right, they either start like 2:40:25.120 --> 2:40:28.600 late spring, early fall, or just the middle of the summer, 2:40:28.720 --> 2:40:31.360 and there's reason. Yeah, like then this is I think 2:40:31.760 --> 2:40:33.840 another this is this is the thing up in Chicago 2:40:34.040 --> 2:40:37.440 right was it was just really fucking cold, and I 2:40:37.480 --> 2:40:39.160 mean this this affects actually circles too, but it's like 2:40:39.200 --> 2:40:41.600 you can't get the critical mass of just regular people 2:40:41.680 --> 2:40:45.280 in the streets when it's like twenty degrees. I think 2:40:45.400 --> 2:40:48.680 the other side of that is, um, just summer vacation 2:40:48.959 --> 2:40:51.120 of a lot of a lot of the people who 2:40:51.200 --> 2:40:54.959 go the hardest at these protests are people in high school. Um. 2:40:55.520 --> 2:41:01.600 And during winter, fall, spring, kids are in school during 2:41:02.080 --> 2:41:05.760 during summer, uh, people have People under the age of 2:41:05.800 --> 2:41:07.680 eighteen have a lot more free time on their hands. 2:41:08.040 --> 2:41:11.040 So I think that is another contributing factor. UM. And 2:41:11.120 --> 2:41:15.360 I think there's there's there's one other aspect which is 2:41:18.080 --> 2:41:21.959 very sinister um and but I think is worth talking 2:41:21.959 --> 2:41:24.280 about in terms of how of how the state may 2:41:24.360 --> 2:41:27.200 have been trying to frame this to like to to 2:41:27.520 --> 2:41:32.600 frame the release of this video too kind of like 2:41:32.840 --> 2:41:36.879 curtail the the the the the intensity of any type 2:41:36.920 --> 2:41:40.199 of like um of a protest revolt uprising. Now obviously 2:41:40.280 --> 2:41:42.400 that there was like the fucked up nature of like 2:41:42.800 --> 2:41:45.080 making this feel like a world premiere of like a 2:41:45.120 --> 2:41:47.600 snuff film. It was like it was it was it 2:41:47.680 --> 2:41:50.720 was like a weird a weird aspect, which I think 2:41:51.320 --> 2:41:55.320 it encouraged the video to be to be something that 2:41:55.480 --> 2:41:59.200 is consumed versus something that's actually like watched and like, oh, 2:41:59.320 --> 2:42:00.800 this is a fucked up thing that we that we 2:42:00.879 --> 2:42:03.040 need to do something about. Instead, it turned it into 2:42:03.120 --> 2:42:06.200 this like element of consumption and the other aspect for 2:42:06.280 --> 2:42:09.040 this in terms of a lot of hardcore activists like 2:42:09.080 --> 2:42:11.400 like like people who have thrown down in the streets before, 2:42:11.680 --> 2:42:13.960 people who have who have who have seen fucked up 2:42:14.000 --> 2:42:18.440 ship is that the intensity, what was the violence depicted 2:42:18.480 --> 2:42:23.440 on this video was framed as being extremely horrific, being 2:42:23.720 --> 2:42:28.959 being a very very unusual, a very um like uncommon 2:42:29.600 --> 2:42:33.119 but but but but horrifying display of violence and display 2:42:33.240 --> 2:42:36.000 of brutality by the police. This is this, This is 2:42:36.040 --> 2:42:38.040 what police departments were faring it as. This is what 2:42:38.240 --> 2:42:40.600 the President of the United States was framing this as 2:42:40.720 --> 2:42:43.480 like this, this is a case of a few of 2:42:43.560 --> 2:42:47.640 a few bad actors who who did an egregious, um 2:42:47.840 --> 2:42:50.920 but you know, uncommon thing. And I think when a 2:42:51.000 --> 2:42:53.080 lot of people who have thrown down watched this video, 2:42:53.879 --> 2:42:57.120 it just reminded you of stuff that you've seen before, Like, yeah, 2:42:57.160 --> 2:43:00.400 they saw a thing they had seen it was it 2:43:00.600 --> 2:43:03.120 was not shocking in the same way that it was 2:43:03.200 --> 2:43:06.920 getting framed as. Because what separates this from most of 2:43:07.000 --> 2:43:10.879 the arrests that happened in Portland during is very little 2:43:11.000 --> 2:43:13.400 Like one or two punches that were that were thrown 2:43:13.480 --> 2:43:16.320 just a little bit too hard is all that separates 2:43:16.400 --> 2:43:20.520 this from most like violent police arrests, Like this was 2:43:20.600 --> 2:43:24.120 not an uncommon display of violence. This was an ordinary, 2:43:24.640 --> 2:43:28.480 an ordinary encounter that just a few things were pushed 2:43:28.600 --> 2:43:30.920 just barely over the edge. And I think a lot 2:43:30.959 --> 2:43:33.720 of people watched, Like my first reaction was like, oh, 2:43:33.959 --> 2:43:35.960 like this, this is not as bad as what I 2:43:36.080 --> 2:43:39.240 thought like this and that that that should be like 2:43:39.280 --> 2:43:42.600 a condemnation of the police's actions. Like That's why I 2:43:42.720 --> 2:43:45.280 think one of the most important things to watch is 2:43:45.400 --> 2:43:48.160 how the other cops who were not present for the beating, 2:43:48.240 --> 2:43:50.400 but who show up immediately after or at the end 2:43:50.440 --> 2:43:52.360 of it, because some of them did watch the others 2:43:52.480 --> 2:43:55.160 beat him, how they react because they're just kind of 2:43:59.200 --> 2:44:01.440 even the MTA, right who turned up, Oh yeah, this 2:44:01.520 --> 2:44:03.520 has happened where we we we do a stand back 2:44:03.560 --> 2:44:07.120 when this happens. Right, the people on the ground were 2:44:07.160 --> 2:44:10.680 not concerned, Like it was not you could you could 2:44:10.760 --> 2:44:13.520 slowly watch because like a lot of this video was 2:44:13.640 --> 2:44:15.480 not of the actual beating. It was it was of 2:44:15.560 --> 2:44:19.120 the aftermath. And you you you could you could watch 2:44:19.240 --> 2:44:23.160 these cops slowly start to realize that maybe they went 2:44:23.200 --> 2:44:26.040 a little too hard, just very slowly over the course 2:44:26.080 --> 2:44:29.000 of thirty minutes. But for most of the time they're 2:44:29.040 --> 2:44:32.040 on the ground, they're like making jokes. They are talking 2:44:32.080 --> 2:44:35.560 about how fun, like how fun it was to beat 2:44:35.640 --> 2:44:40.440 up this person and there each other. That is most 2:44:40.520 --> 2:44:42.960 of the video. I think it's worth noting like a 2:44:43.080 --> 2:44:46.520 couple of things. One like it's extremely long, Like I'm 2:44:46.600 --> 2:44:48.800 not in the in the way that the George Floyd 2:44:48.920 --> 2:44:51.440 video like fits into the attention span of stuff we 2:44:51.480 --> 2:44:56.520 consume on our telephones at a time minute versus minutes 2:44:56.640 --> 2:44:59.920 versus like an hour of footage. Right, Yeah, if Tyree 2:45:00.040 --> 2:45:03.160 Nichols had just been seriously disabled, had life altering injuries, 2:45:03.200 --> 2:45:05.440 been charged with disting rest all the things that very 2:45:05.560 --> 2:45:07.600 plausibly could have happened if a couple of punches had 2:45:07.640 --> 2:45:10.800 handed in different place. This body camera footage would have 2:45:10.840 --> 2:45:14.280 been denied under the investigative exemption right then have said, no, 2:45:14.360 --> 2:45:17.440 we're investigating his resistance of arrest. You can't you can't 2:45:17.480 --> 2:45:20.160 see it, and none of this ship would have happened. 2:45:20.520 --> 2:45:25.200 And like, yeah, the normalcy of so much other than 2:45:25.280 --> 2:45:28.120 the outcome. I don't know that that stritched some of 2:45:28.200 --> 2:45:32.800 the rage away, but it's important context. I think a 2:45:32.920 --> 2:45:36.800 few things I mean, and this is again one of 2:45:36.879 --> 2:45:38.560 the things that I think you can see from this 2:45:38.760 --> 2:45:41.920 that is evidence of sort of a positive long term 2:45:42.560 --> 2:45:45.760 result to and it's it's a very mixed bag when 2:45:45.800 --> 2:45:48.280 I say it's positive, but that is kind of a 2:45:49.480 --> 2:45:54.000 positive sign. Is that they acted so quickly to throw 2:45:54.320 --> 2:45:57.640 all of these guys. They are firing and charging a 2:45:57.879 --> 2:46:00.560 lot of city employees over this. It's going to be 2:46:01.120 --> 2:46:03.160 between all of the people fired and all of the 2:46:03.200 --> 2:46:05.600 people charged, more than a dozen people by the time 2:46:05.680 --> 2:46:08.440 this is all done, which I can't think of another 2:46:08.560 --> 2:46:11.279 time when that has happened this quickly over an incident 2:46:11.440 --> 2:46:14.400 of police violence. And they did that not because it's 2:46:14.440 --> 2:46:17.040 the right thing to do, but because they were scared. 2:46:18.200 --> 2:46:20.480 And again I do I want to emphasize here the 2:46:20.600 --> 2:46:23.280 thing that they're scared of is not that like radical 2:46:23.640 --> 2:46:26.080 left wing protesters will take to the street. It's that 2:46:26.520 --> 2:46:31.280 liberals and moral they know that the consequence of the 2:46:31.400 --> 2:46:35.680 cops beating someone to death is that like someone sucker, 2:46:35.760 --> 2:46:38.400 mom will fucking abandon how many vans wing a snehammer 2:46:38.440 --> 2:46:41.560 into your cop shop? If you don't do this, do 2:46:41.879 --> 2:46:44.880 like give a scapegoat? Right, like do the fair the 2:46:45.000 --> 2:46:48.320 bare minimum? And so the positive the thing that I 2:46:48.360 --> 2:46:50.560 can say that is probably positive about this is that 2:46:50.720 --> 2:46:53.680 it does show there's still some fear there on their behalf. 2:46:53.959 --> 2:46:56.560 The thing that's negative is that, like, well, it it 2:46:56.720 --> 2:46:59.240 worked because I will say, on a moral level, I 2:46:59.360 --> 2:47:03.560 think a why variety of radical actions are morally justified 2:47:04.959 --> 2:47:07.360 by what was done to Tyrene Nichols. Now that said, 2:47:07.480 --> 2:47:10.160 like back to the sort of the point we were 2:47:10.200 --> 2:47:13.640 making the start of this, I don't particularly urge or 2:47:13.840 --> 2:47:16.480 encourage that just because, like I don't like seeing people 2:47:16.840 --> 2:47:20.120 get arrested and charged and spend years of their life 2:47:20.160 --> 2:47:23.200 fighting ship in court, um for the chance to like, 2:47:23.920 --> 2:47:26.560 let's say, carry out minor acts of property destruction on 2:47:26.600 --> 2:47:30.120 a cop shop. Um, I don't think like that sort 2:47:30.200 --> 2:47:35.440 of activism works right now, um, it certainly doesn't work 2:47:35.520 --> 2:47:40.480 without them, without the critical mass of like liberals sort 2:47:40.520 --> 2:47:43.760 of behind it, without enough people saying like we like 2:47:43.879 --> 2:47:46.199 again you look at like the fact that the burning 2:47:46.240 --> 2:47:48.360 of the Third Precinct in Minneapolis is still one of 2:47:48.440 --> 2:47:51.880 the most popular things in modern American politics. But that 2:47:52.400 --> 2:47:55.480 was the product of a fairly unique moment, And I 2:47:56.000 --> 2:47:59.360 just don't I see some positives in like the lingering 2:47:59.520 --> 2:48:02.080 fear of that moment, but I also don't see the 2:48:02.200 --> 2:48:06.520 material conditions that make me think it's something like that 2:48:06.720 --> 2:48:10.240 is coming again in the immediate future. And especially because 2:48:10.440 --> 2:48:14.880 this this situation around this video demonstrates how much more 2:48:15.040 --> 2:48:18.280 effort the state's putting into trying to prevent things from 2:48:18.320 --> 2:48:21.560 happening before they start. Like there was a lot of 2:48:21.720 --> 2:48:25.360 like inter agency work put into having all of these 2:48:25.400 --> 2:48:28.200 local police departments and release statements, having the FBI release statements, 2:48:28.280 --> 2:48:32.119 having uh, the president, yea, like having having the president 2:48:32.200 --> 2:48:35.920 release statements, and it's it is all made slightly more 2:48:36.000 --> 2:48:39.080 bizarre considering that the contents of the video are not 2:48:39.480 --> 2:48:42.360 the on on the level of like uncommon or like 2:48:42.640 --> 2:48:46.160 rare rare displays of violence that the police do, like 2:48:46.240 --> 2:48:49.520 this is this is this is relatively standard, um and 2:48:49.920 --> 2:48:52.960 that that kind of one thing I've been thinking about 2:48:53.040 --> 2:48:58.320 is like why did they choose this video? Like why 2:48:58.400 --> 2:49:01.480 did they why did they make this one? Like what 2:49:01.680 --> 2:49:04.080 were they afraid of, like for this video, because like 2:49:04.360 --> 2:49:07.040 other other other videos have come out in the past 2:49:07.080 --> 2:49:10.560 few years, like other like other police killings have happened, 2:49:10.600 --> 2:49:13.120 like this police killing is all the fucking time. But 2:49:13.480 --> 2:49:17.480 they they did a lot of work on this one specifically, um. 2:49:17.800 --> 2:49:20.440 And it's kind of it's kind of interesting that, like 2:49:20.640 --> 2:49:24.400 why why they chose this specific video to to dedicate 2:49:24.480 --> 2:49:27.480 all of this work into Because not not only did 2:49:27.560 --> 2:49:29.600 they like you know, denying stuff, but they also they 2:49:29.680 --> 2:49:32.600 like they like hyped it up. They're like you using 2:49:32.640 --> 2:49:35.360 this as like an example, Yeah, like like using this 2:49:35.440 --> 2:49:38.080 as an example, like here, this is what bad cops 2:49:38.200 --> 2:49:41.120 look like. Watch us punish these bad cops. Well, but 2:49:41.360 --> 2:49:43.000 I think I think I think there's a rate. I 2:49:43.000 --> 2:49:44.880 think there's a huge racial aspect of this, right, which 2:49:44.920 --> 2:49:48.400 is that like you know, like the cops were getting prosecuted. 2:49:48.440 --> 2:49:50.400 Are only the black cops who are involved in this, right? 2:49:50.400 --> 2:49:52.879 And I think that's a huge part of this entire strategy. 2:49:52.920 --> 2:49:55.320 I think that's why they framed this as exceptional violence 2:49:55.840 --> 2:49:58.600 is to play on people's racism, right. I think I 2:49:58.760 --> 2:50:00.680 think that's why why this is is allowed to happen, 2:50:00.760 --> 2:50:03.080 which was that yeah, you can it is. It's like 2:50:03.959 --> 2:50:05.800 even inside the police it is a lot easier to 2:50:05.840 --> 2:50:07.400 throw black cops under the bus and it is there 2:50:07.440 --> 2:50:09.400 white cops under the bus. That's just how the system works. 2:50:09.840 --> 2:50:14.600 And it doesn't trigger that same like visceral response right 2:50:14.680 --> 2:50:17.160 that that we all had to seeing the George Floyd video, 2:50:17.360 --> 2:50:19.960 I don't think quite like like there is a j 2:50:20.000 --> 2:50:23.040 old tradition of white men doing violent to black men 2:50:23.120 --> 2:50:26.320 on behalf of the state. And I think also it's 2:50:26.360 --> 2:50:29.920 it's also easier politically inside of the police departments because 2:50:30.000 --> 2:50:31.320 I think I think there would have been a lot 2:50:31.400 --> 2:50:33.480 more pushback from it, like the police part Like there 2:50:33.480 --> 2:50:36.760 hasn't been much that I've seen like internal pushback, like 2:50:36.840 --> 2:50:39.160 from inside of police partments, because I I think if 2:50:39.160 --> 2:50:40.840 it had been five white cops, I think this would 2:50:40.840 --> 2:50:42.680 have been a huge fight, and I think you would 2:50:42.680 --> 2:50:45.440 have had like the fucking police union, like calling Biden 2:50:45.560 --> 2:50:48.800 like an anti cop, like whatever. But I I think 2:50:48.879 --> 2:50:50.640 I think these were people who they were like we 2:50:50.640 --> 2:50:52.320 could tell these people onto the bus and doesn't looking 2:50:52.320 --> 2:50:56.800 matter because who cares? Yeah, so arity isn't there for them. 2:50:57.360 --> 2:51:00.680 I think those are I mean, that's certainly like significant 2:51:00.760 --> 2:51:04.280 aspect of why like this was the one they focused on. 2:51:05.080 --> 2:51:07.360 But I also think a major aspect of it is 2:51:08.320 --> 2:51:12.040 that it shows and records the reaction of other city 2:51:12.080 --> 2:51:15.040 employees to this, and you can see in real time 2:51:15.120 --> 2:51:20.520 the police putting together um that story like it's it. 2:51:21.000 --> 2:51:23.640 There's I think a few things about this that are 2:51:23.879 --> 2:51:30.119 are really unique, but even I don't know the it's 2:51:30.200 --> 2:51:33.080 relatively unusual to have an angle, which is not like 2:51:33.400 --> 2:51:35.920 the body camera, right, which really I think the violence 2:51:36.000 --> 2:51:38.200 in this was was captured and depicted in a way 2:51:38.280 --> 2:51:40.959 which was more explicit than you would get from many 2:51:41.040 --> 2:51:44.680 individual cops body camera. And like the fact that they 2:51:45.000 --> 2:51:46.520 most of the time when cops kill people to do 2:51:46.560 --> 2:51:48.800 it with guns, right or maybe to taste or something. 2:51:48.840 --> 2:51:52.000 That the fact that they took minutes, you know, like 2:51:52.520 --> 2:51:55.600 several minutes to be a man to death. It's it 2:51:55.760 --> 2:51:57.600 is just it should be. We've we've said like how 2:51:57.720 --> 2:51:59.720 this isn't unusual, and it's not, But it doesn't mean 2:51:59.760 --> 2:52:04.120 it's not repulsive. No, No, it's sucking disgusted by it. 2:52:04.320 --> 2:52:09.440 It's it's nightmarish. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's even more 2:52:09.560 --> 2:52:13.360 nightmarish considering how common this is, because yes, they did 2:52:13.480 --> 2:52:15.920 spend a few minutes doing this, but it was really 2:52:16.000 --> 2:52:18.160 only I think one or two punches that threw it 2:52:18.320 --> 2:52:20.920 right over the edge. Like it wasn't just a punch. 2:52:21.040 --> 2:52:23.160 Is the thing that I think one of the things 2:52:23.240 --> 2:52:26.000 that I saw that I think was probably critical and 2:52:26.160 --> 2:52:30.640 why he died. No, it was when they tackled him. 2:52:30.800 --> 2:52:35.240 His head bounced against the ground with a significant amount 2:52:35.280 --> 2:52:39.240 of force. There's a number of like a perfect storm 2:52:39.320 --> 2:52:41.680 of factors, right, that went into making this the inctident 2:52:41.760 --> 2:52:43.720 that they talked about, and like this the incident that 2:52:43.800 --> 2:52:48.280 didn't start two. I guess like it's no one particular thing, 2:52:48.360 --> 2:52:50.560 it's all these things that led to it. And I 2:52:50.640 --> 2:52:53.360 do think also, like we have Joe Biden as president, right, 2:52:53.440 --> 2:52:56.320 like a lot of the same bullshit it's still happening 2:52:56.360 --> 2:52:58.400 that we've covered, right, like talking about the cops, talking 2:52:58.400 --> 2:53:00.520 about the border, talking about all this stuff, but it's 2:53:00.560 --> 2:53:04.840 not being shoved in people's faces by legacy media outlets. 2:53:05.320 --> 2:53:08.360 Liberal folks have not been getting gradually angry or more 2:53:08.480 --> 2:53:11.640 upset at like the appearance of vulgarity from the White House. 2:53:12.040 --> 2:53:15.119 And yeah, and that's also a big aspect of why 2:53:15.240 --> 2:53:17.440 things went the way they did in is you had 2:53:17.520 --> 2:53:20.280 four years of pent up frustration on behalf of the 2:53:21.680 --> 2:53:25.680 a large group of liberals as well. Although I do again, 2:53:26.000 --> 2:53:30.000 I don't like pushing kind of the simple narrative here 2:53:30.040 --> 2:53:32.040 because I see that on the left a lot that like, oh, 2:53:32.120 --> 2:53:36.360 the Libs they stopped coming out because Biden one, and 2:53:36.440 --> 2:53:40.160 they never really cared. And I think that like, that's 2:53:40.200 --> 2:53:43.119 there's certainly like a decent chunk of people who who 2:53:43.680 --> 2:53:46.440 showed up because it was the thing to do and 2:53:46.600 --> 2:53:49.240 we're not committed. But I also think the folks who 2:53:49.280 --> 2:53:53.119 are just like, um, you know, people stopped coming out 2:53:53.240 --> 2:53:56.200 because they suck. That's a that's a little bit of 2:53:56.280 --> 2:53:59.680 a reductive summary of the take. But I think that 2:53:59.760 --> 2:54:02.520 that that broad idea leaves out a lot. One of 2:54:02.560 --> 2:54:03.960 the things that leaves out is that a lot of 2:54:04.080 --> 2:54:07.480 those those Libs and moderates who showed up in got 2:54:07.520 --> 2:54:10.240 the ship beaten out of them and got pretty traumatized 2:54:10.440 --> 2:54:14.520 and are probably would be willing to get back out again. 2:54:14.800 --> 2:54:17.080 But are going to need to feel like there's a 2:54:18.080 --> 2:54:20.760 an actual chance of doing something because they understand the 2:54:20.840 --> 2:54:24.200 consequences of showing up in the street better. Um, and 2:54:24.280 --> 2:54:25.800 they're like, well, I don't want to do the same 2:54:25.920 --> 2:54:27.920 thing that I just got my ass kicked and there's 2:54:27.959 --> 2:54:32.039 still cops. Um, there is a decent amount of evidence 2:54:32.280 --> 2:54:37.080 that for kind of the long term positive impact of 2:54:37.560 --> 2:54:39.360 getting all those people out in the street and of 2:54:39.440 --> 2:54:42.720 the fact that so many more people in witnessed police 2:54:42.800 --> 2:54:45.760 violence with their own eyes. Um. There's a couple of 2:54:45.800 --> 2:54:47.400 places you can go to look at this, But I 2:54:47.520 --> 2:54:50.600 was I was watching going through a recent ABC News 2:54:50.640 --> 2:54:55.080 Washington Post poll that showed that from three, confidence that 2:54:55.160 --> 2:54:58.160 police treat black and white people equally fell from fifty two, 2:54:58.600 --> 2:55:02.960 where it was the thirty nine percent among Americans. Um, 2:55:03.120 --> 2:55:06.280 and confidence that yeah, and confidence the police still a 2:55:06.360 --> 2:55:10.080 lot like it's too it's certainly too high, but that's 2:55:10.080 --> 2:55:14.160 a significant change. And confidence that police were adequately trained 2:55:14.200 --> 2:55:19.520 to avoid use of excessive force fell from f to um. Like, 2:55:19.720 --> 2:55:23.720 and confidence in both of these things fell twice as 2:55:23.800 --> 2:55:28.800 fast from twenty three as it did from and that 2:55:28.920 --> 2:55:31.760 like thirty something percent number is just that is also 2:55:31.800 --> 2:55:34.360 just like close to like the number of people who 2:55:34.400 --> 2:55:41.000 are like active, like like actively hardcore racist about of 2:55:41.080 --> 2:55:43.520 the country are biggest. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think the 2:55:43.560 --> 2:55:46.680 election was real think that. Yeah. I want to quickly 2:55:46.800 --> 2:55:48.959 mention that, like some of those liberal folks as well, 2:55:49.040 --> 2:55:52.240 like like this is not we don't do like shipping 2:55:52.280 --> 2:55:54.119 on the lips or whatever it's use Listen, it doesn't help. 2:55:54.200 --> 2:55:56.400 But like a lot of those folks have been out 2:55:56.480 --> 2:55:58.480 doing other ship too, Like I've seen folks so I 2:55:58.520 --> 2:56:01.880 haven't seen since twenty like to protect trans kids, trying 2:56:01.959 --> 2:56:04.160 trying to stop biggest shout and get little children going 2:56:04.200 --> 2:56:07.080 to the pantomime ship like they they've been doing stuff, 2:56:07.120 --> 2:56:09.600 and and that contributes to close to people being you know, 2:56:09.720 --> 2:56:12.640 fatigue from other actions. A large part of what I'm 2:56:12.640 --> 2:56:15.240 seeing people not being willing to do anymore is like 2:56:15.440 --> 2:56:19.120 the same ship that they did in that stopped working, right, 2:56:19.280 --> 2:56:23.480 it didn't continue to be effective. Yeah yeah, And I 2:56:23.560 --> 2:56:25.680 think also like and this this also you know the 2:56:25.720 --> 2:56:28.480 s sspectors, like the weather, like the stuff that was 2:56:28.560 --> 2:56:32.680 happening in the very very like the first week, we're 2:56:32.760 --> 2:56:34.400 like I don't know, like the cops lost control of 2:56:34.520 --> 2:56:36.600 like the sid at the center of Chicago, right, like 2:56:37.280 --> 2:56:41.120 that the kind of people who did that stuff like 2:56:41.600 --> 2:56:44.520 aren't really like that. Those those those are those those 2:56:44.680 --> 2:56:46.640 that was not being done by people who were sort 2:56:46.640 --> 2:56:48.800 of like political liberals or whatever. That was being done 2:56:48.800 --> 2:56:52.560 by people who like had like very various tines, very 2:56:52.680 --> 2:56:56.120 tenuous connection to politics at all under normal circumstances. And 2:56:56.360 --> 2:56:59.480 you know, like eventually, eventually you'll get we'll see something 2:56:59.520 --> 2:57:01.320 like that again. I don't know, I mean it took 2:57:01.360 --> 2:57:06.040 like six six five or six years between like Ferguson 2:57:06.240 --> 2:57:10.000 and like that. That will happen again. But there's that 2:57:10.320 --> 2:57:13.920 kind of that that kind of stuff doesn't happen that 2:57:14.080 --> 2:57:16.600 Like those those like the kind of people who actually 2:57:16.760 --> 2:57:19.560 riot very significantly, who are not in the sort of 2:57:19.640 --> 2:57:22.600 like cadra of like hardcore left or organizers, like, they 2:57:22.640 --> 2:57:25.480 don't throw in that often. And a lot of political 2:57:25.520 --> 2:57:29.240 conditions have to like converge exactly correctly for it to happen, 2:57:29.320 --> 2:57:30.880 and it's just not going to happen most of the time. 2:57:31.520 --> 2:57:33.360 And that's in pressing in a lot of ways. But 2:57:33.440 --> 2:57:36.280 like you like that's just that's just what reality is. Yeah, 2:57:36.360 --> 2:57:39.920 I don't think there's been enough time between cycles in 2:57:40.080 --> 2:57:42.280 order for things to really pick up, because yeah, it 2:57:42.360 --> 2:57:46.240 hasn't required a lot of people to forget, to forget 2:57:46.320 --> 2:57:48.760 the brutality of what the cops did to people, and 2:57:49.040 --> 2:57:53.199 like and and and and and just like material conditions 2:57:53.280 --> 2:57:56.879 and like recovering from burnout, and it creates Like one 2:57:56.920 --> 2:57:59.680 thing that's been so incredible about Atlanta is the level 2:57:59.720 --> 2:58:03.000 of atliency because they've not they've not really stopped since 2:58:03.920 --> 2:58:07.520 like they've like they've they've kind of they they've they've 2:58:07.600 --> 2:58:10.360 kept going in a very particular way that both like 2:58:10.640 --> 2:58:13.040 encourages people to take care of themselves and not to 2:58:13.080 --> 2:58:16.400 be treated as disposable. And I think a big part 2:58:16.440 --> 2:58:19.320 of that is having like a multi pronct movement, Like 2:58:20.120 --> 2:58:23.240 the movement isn't it's not built around a singular thing 2:58:23.320 --> 2:58:26.000 like going out and breaking windows or even even just 2:58:26.120 --> 2:58:28.640 like camping in the forest. Like, the movement isn't just 2:58:28.920 --> 2:58:31.360 those things. There's a lot of other various aspects. So 2:58:31.720 --> 2:58:34.880 when you're exhausted from one single thing, you can move 2:58:34.959 --> 2:58:37.080 on to one of the other many aspects and like 2:58:37.240 --> 2:58:41.760 do that as like as your recovery um and and have. 2:58:42.000 --> 2:58:43.840 Having that, I think it's contributed to the level of 2:58:43.879 --> 2:58:47.200 resiliency that we've seen, um, but I don't think the 2:58:47.320 --> 2:58:50.160 rest of the States has those types of practices. Like 2:58:50.320 --> 2:58:53.600 people in Portland are definitely still extremely burnt out from 2:58:54.240 --> 2:58:57.720 from and I assume a lot of a lot of 2:58:57.800 --> 2:59:01.240 other cities are dealing with similar level of fatigue. One 2:59:01.280 --> 2:59:03.000 thing I do want to address really quickly is the 2:59:03.320 --> 2:59:08.080 horseshit framing of this by legacy media. Again, like the 2:59:08.320 --> 2:59:11.000 very fucking people who, like on the day that Derek 2:59:11.120 --> 2:59:14.760 Chauvin went to Joe retweeted that initial statement where Minneapolis 2:59:14.800 --> 2:59:17.360 p D like basically said George Floyd died of a 2:59:17.440 --> 2:59:20.400 heart attack. I think we had a cardiac condition or something. Um, 2:59:20.959 --> 2:59:23.480 the very same people who retweeted that statement said never 2:59:23.520 --> 2:59:24.960 again are we going to be calmed by this ship 2:59:25.040 --> 2:59:28.200 and now out there fucking just carrying water for the cops, 2:59:28.320 --> 2:59:31.800 like CNN saying that Tyry Nichols had an encounter with 2:59:31.920 --> 2:59:35.320 the police, Like I don't understand what it fucking takes 2:59:35.360 --> 2:59:37.800 for these people to understand, Like and I've been like 2:59:37.959 --> 2:59:40.800 I was on NBC this year trying to persuade other 2:59:40.959 --> 2:59:44.640 NBC journalists to maybe critically assess the claim to the police, 2:59:44.680 --> 2:59:48.400 and like here we are again doing the same ship again, 2:59:48.680 --> 2:59:50.880 and we should we should probably close out here soon. 2:59:50.959 --> 2:59:52.880 But one kind of final thought that I've had is 2:59:53.360 --> 2:59:56.320 the other another kind of crucial difference between how this 2:59:56.480 --> 3:00:00.120 was treated as opposed to the George Floyd videos. At 3:00:00.920 --> 3:00:04.360 the person who recorded the George Floyd video was like 3:00:04.400 --> 3:00:08.640 a bystander, Like they were just there and they posted 3:00:08.720 --> 3:00:11.400 that on their own accord, and it was able to 3:00:11.600 --> 3:00:15.880 grow to it was able to grow traction over the 3:00:15.959 --> 3:00:18.720 course of a few weeks kind of slowly in like 3:00:19.280 --> 3:00:23.199 underground um like in like underground communities, you know, people 3:00:23.200 --> 3:00:25.440 who are much more aware of police violence, and then 3:00:25.480 --> 3:00:27.440 that's the least seeped out into the mainstream. I think 3:00:27.440 --> 3:00:30.280 there's a difference in having that type of natural growth 3:00:30.320 --> 3:00:32.480 of people learning about like hey, did you see this 3:00:32.560 --> 3:00:35.000 fucked up thing that my friends sent me where like 3:00:35.480 --> 3:00:38.160 did you like Like there's that level of like, oh, 3:00:38.400 --> 3:00:41.160 we found this thing that is really fucked up and 3:00:41.280 --> 3:00:44.680 people need to care about this, versus the framing of 3:00:44.920 --> 3:00:47.400 the police and how they used this as like a 3:00:47.480 --> 3:00:50.440 world premiere of this like of this of this like 3:00:50.840 --> 3:00:52.880 snuff film. It's it's like that there was like a 3:00:52.959 --> 3:00:57.080 fucking countdown to to to to to watch the video, 3:00:57.320 --> 3:01:00.800 and that that immediately frames this as something to be consumed. 3:01:00.959 --> 3:01:03.960 That immediately frames this is something like the way to 3:01:04.040 --> 3:01:07.400 engage with this is to sit down and watch it 3:01:07.600 --> 3:01:09.560 and then you're done. Like that, then the that is 3:01:09.640 --> 3:01:11.960 the like they're they're they're framing this the same way 3:01:12.000 --> 3:01:14.360 that you would watch like a movie or like a 3:01:14.480 --> 3:01:16.879 music video drop like that is that is the style 3:01:16.959 --> 3:01:20.400 of engagement. Because this video is being published by the 3:01:20.440 --> 3:01:23.280 police like they are. They are they are from from 3:01:23.320 --> 3:01:27.160 the very start, They're controlling the way that information is distributed. 3:01:27.360 --> 3:01:31.800 They're controlling what information is distributed. It like creates this 3:01:31.959 --> 3:01:37.080 scenario where the consumption of the video itself like is 3:01:37.240 --> 3:01:40.120 the event as opposed to any type of like follow 3:01:40.240 --> 3:01:44.480 up action or protest or direct action that instead of 3:01:44.560 --> 3:01:47.760 that being like the action event, the action event is 3:01:47.920 --> 3:01:50.960 just the consumption of the video based on how it 3:01:51.120 --> 3:01:54.600 was hyped up as as this thing that was to 3:01:54.680 --> 3:01:57.240 be like officially released and you like count down for 3:01:57.360 --> 3:01:58.840 it and then you watch it and you're like, Okay, 3:01:59.400 --> 3:02:01.880 that was it, that was the thing, um, And I 3:02:01.959 --> 3:02:04.720 think that does just really impact it when it's like this, 3:02:04.879 --> 3:02:10.440 like sanctioned premier versus this thing that's spread by regular people. UM. Yeah, 3:02:10.480 --> 3:02:13.800 I think you're right. I think it kind of became 3:02:13.840 --> 3:02:16.640 this act of penance. Like you watched the video, you say, 3:02:16.680 --> 3:02:19.720 holy funk, that's disgusting, and then like the thing is 3:02:19.720 --> 3:02:22.040 already done right like that, the cops are already fired, 3:02:22.080 --> 3:02:23.880 So you just do your penance. You go through the 3:02:23.959 --> 3:02:26.760 painful thing, rather than the George Floyd thing, which was 3:02:26.840 --> 3:02:28.960 like nothing has been done about this. I've got this 3:02:29.080 --> 3:02:31.960 organically from my friend and I'm fucking furious. Oh yeah, 3:02:31.959 --> 3:02:36.640 I think you're right. I think it's very different. Yeah, alright, 3:02:36.720 --> 3:02:38.440 well I think that's probably going to do it for 3:02:38.560 --> 3:02:45.800 us today. Um until next time. Uh, I don't know. 3:02:46.400 --> 3:02:51.280 Don't don't let your city name a police elite unit 3:02:51.560 --> 3:03:01.840 scorpion or anything else. Yeah you can tell stuck. Yeah yeah, 3:03:01.840 --> 3:03:06.520 I don't have special police if. Yeah, I would prefer 3:03:06.640 --> 3:03:09.520 no cops. If you're going to have a special police unit, 3:03:09.600 --> 3:03:12.400 maybe call it like the Barney Fife Battalion or something 3:03:12.520 --> 3:03:15.520 like that. Um, at least at least try not to 3:03:15.720 --> 3:03:21.520 hype them up to be scorpions. Yeah. Um, anyway, that 3:03:21.680 --> 3:03:29.040 that that that that the fuck? Howeveryone it's James again 3:03:29.240 --> 3:03:32.360 book ending the episode, and I'm just here to ask 3:03:32.400 --> 3:03:34.960 you again to donate if you have the means, if 3:03:34.959 --> 3:03:39.480 you're able to, to relief for people in Syria who 3:03:39.600 --> 3:03:43.360 are obviously experiencing terrible consequences from this earthquake. The new 3:03:43.440 --> 3:03:45.640 cycle kind of moves on, but people's lives don't, and 3:03:45.680 --> 3:03:48.320 they still need your help. So a couple of plays 3:03:48.360 --> 3:03:51.800 you can donate. The White Helmets that's White Helmets dot org, 3:03:52.080 --> 3:03:56.360 slash e N for English Syrian American Medical Society Foundation, 3:03:56.600 --> 3:04:01.039 that's s A M S hyphen USA dot net, metsan 3:04:01.080 --> 3:04:04.800 San Fontiere, Doctors Without Borders and that's Doctors Without Borders 3:04:04.959 --> 3:04:08.800 dot org. And the Curtish Rear Question h E y 3:04:08.959 --> 3:04:12.080 V A S O r u K dot r G. 3:04:12.480 --> 3:04:14.360 Those were all great places and we'd love it if 3:04:14.400 --> 3:04:24.960 you could spare little money to help people out. Thanks bye, Hey, 3:04:25.080 --> 3:04:28.160 We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 3:04:28.200 --> 3:04:30.959 now until the heat death of the Universe. It could 3:04:31.000 --> 3:04:33.320 happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For 3:04:33.440 --> 3:04:36.160 more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 3:04:36.240 --> 3:04:38.200 zone media dot com, or check us out on the 3:04:38.240 --> 3:04:40.920 I Heart radio app Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen 3:04:40.959 --> 3:04:43.920 to podcasts, you can find sources for It could happen here, 3:04:44.000 --> 3:04:47.400 Updated monthly at cool Zone Media dot com slash sources. 3:04:47.680 --> 3:04:48.440 Thanks for listening.