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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a completion episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Hi. Everyone, it's just me today,

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Speaker 1: James again, and I'm talking today with my friend Billy

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Speaker 1: Billy Ford. Billy is a program off SIR for the

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Speaker 1: Burma team at the United States Institute of Peace. And

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Speaker 1: do you want to say hello Billy James. Hi, thanks

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Speaker 1: for tuning it. Yeah, thanks for joining us without a

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Speaker 1: decent introduction. If I summed up right, what you do

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Speaker 1: get I want to get that wrong. So people will

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Speaker 1: have heard Billy before and heard from Billy when we

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Speaker 1: finished our last series on them, where we spoke about

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Speaker 1: the funding that the pdfc using and how they're using

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Speaker 1: a lot of unique and really innovative methods to continue

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Speaker 1: to support their revolution when they're not getting very much

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Speaker 1: at all in the way of international support, and certainly

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Speaker 1: nothing compared to countries like Ukraine. But what we wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about today was the s

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Speaker 1: A C or the Hunter's attempts at kind of staging

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Speaker 1: a sham election, which they've sort of backed off on.

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Speaker 1: Can you explain a little bit about what they had

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Speaker 1: proposed and then what they maybe what they're doing now, right, yeah, UM.

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Speaker 1: So the expectation was upon UM instigating the coupe February

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Speaker 1: f that UM the state of emergency would end on

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Speaker 1: UM February first, which was two days ago, UM, giving

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Speaker 1: them six months after that, uh, that period to kind

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Speaker 1: of undertake an election. And so the expectation was that

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Speaker 1: before August one, there would be this sort of shame

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Speaker 1: UM electoral process UM, and the the Hunter would essentially

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Speaker 1: structure of the process in such way that they they're there,

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Speaker 1: their political party, the U s DP, would prevail UM,

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Speaker 1: and that the Commander in Chief men online who runs

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Speaker 1: the HUNTA would ascend as he had dreamed to become

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Speaker 1: the president of the country and kind of rule in

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Speaker 1: a military dictatorship model, but under kind of these auspices

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Speaker 1: of civilian governance. So that was the expectation. But things

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Speaker 1: have changed, as you kind of alluded to. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: they've they've said they got to extend for another six months.

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Speaker 1: Who's that right, that's right. UM, So they said they

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Speaker 1: would extend for another six months until August first. UM.

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Speaker 1: But then this morning they also announced a new political, Economic,

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Speaker 1: and Social objectives which includes a five point road map UM, which,

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Speaker 1: for those of you who have been following m R

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Speaker 1: for some time, is often the way that they frame

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Speaker 1: there UM kind of sham and circuitous approaches to civilian governance. UM.

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Speaker 1: But UM that articulates a series of reforms, restoring law

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Speaker 1: and order, you know, social development, implementing a peace process,

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Speaker 1: and then holding elections UM. And this is I think

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Speaker 1: indicates to most people that elections are very unlikely to

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Speaker 1: occur any time in the near future. UM. They did

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Speaker 1: something almost identical in two thousand and four articulating a

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Speaker 1: roadmap to democracy, and that didn't really start until two

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Speaker 1: thousand and ten, UM, where when there were elections and

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Speaker 1: there weren't really meaningful ones until UM. This is kind

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Speaker 1: of an indication to I think a lot of folks

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Speaker 1: that UM, elections are unlikely this year and that there's

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Speaker 1: kind of a long road ahead. UH. The interesting element

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Speaker 1: of this will be to see how the the hunter's

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Speaker 1: kind of enablers in the international community, including Thailand, China,

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Speaker 1: and India in particular, how they will respond, in part

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Speaker 1: because they were pushing the SAC very hard to undertake

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Speaker 1: these elections as a potential off ramp to the horrifying

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Speaker 1: violence that is UM that resulted from the coup and um,

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Speaker 1: you know, all the atrocities that the SEC has committed.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we could talk a little bit about the the

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Speaker 1: international support they have, because it's still quite significant and

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Speaker 1: like especially in terms of propping up their military force

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Speaker 1: through the use of air power they can and they

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Speaker 1: don't have domestic like fighter yet manufacturing, right, So can

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Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about that, Like I think

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Speaker 1: they received a couple more planes very recently, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: from um the Chinese. UM. Yeah. There. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: an interesting dynamic whereby you have a an entire country

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Speaker 1: of fifty three ish million p bowl UM fighting against

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Speaker 1: a tiny military institution of about five thousand or fewer

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Speaker 1: UM if you include their families and all the medics, UM,

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Speaker 1: and that tiny institution is being supported by just a

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Speaker 1: handful of countries UM. As I said, kind of China Russia, UH,

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Speaker 1: to a certain agree, Indian and Thailand UM and a

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Speaker 1: few others UM. And the vast majority of the world

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Speaker 1: is kind of opposes this military takeover and the subsequent

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Speaker 1: dictatorship and all the her indoc atrocities that they've committed. UM.

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Speaker 1: And so there's quite a lot of international actors who

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Speaker 1: are providing kind of UM rhetorical support to the resistance

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Speaker 1: and some you know, support to civil society and humanitarian

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Speaker 1: assistance and others. But you know, on balance, the support

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Speaker 1: that the Chinese, Indians, Russians in particular UM have provided

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Speaker 1: in terms of material assistance to the s A c UM,

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Speaker 1: as well as the diplomatic assistance that the Chinese provide

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Speaker 1: at the secure the Council in particular, but also the

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Speaker 1: Ties provide UM with an ascion, is you know for

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Speaker 1: outweighs the rhetorical and small material assistance at the West

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Speaker 1: and UM. You know other supporters of the resistance movement

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Speaker 1: have provided UM. So Yes, to answer your question, the

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Speaker 1: you know, the Chinese and Indians continue to provide material

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Speaker 1: military assistance to the s A c UM. And you know,

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Speaker 1: my question is kind of what is there theory of

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Speaker 1: change here and how will UM supporting the sac militarily

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Speaker 1: lead to anything like stabilization. It's just kind of perplexing

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Speaker 1: to me when both countries are very UM interested in

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Speaker 1: in in supporting UH a level of functional stability so

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Speaker 1: they can undertake their economic and geopolitical objectives UM, many

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Speaker 1: of which go through my Mr UM. I just don't

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Speaker 1: really understand how they see kind of a military victory Bray,

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Speaker 1: the s A c is a pathway to stabilization when

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Speaker 1: you have an entire nation that has risen up against

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Speaker 1: UH the dictatorship and has wholly rejected it and demonstrated

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Speaker 1: that they're willing to make the these incredible sacrifices to

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Speaker 1: UM to ensure that this coup does not succeed. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is. It's very perplexing because like it's not in

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Speaker 1: in any sort of conventional sense like a consolidated regime

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Speaker 1: and no show any chance of being one. Right, Like,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't even have territorial control of a large sways

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Speaker 1: of the country that they claims. Yeah, exactly, and you're

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Speaker 1: you're even hearing this. I mean, there's been quite a

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Speaker 1: bit of research, contested research that that shows the HUNTA

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Speaker 1: has less than fifty control, but even today you are differ.

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Speaker 1: Yesterday you heard from an online the the Hunter Leader

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Speaker 1: UM that he's now admitting that they um only have

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Speaker 1: sixty percent control, which is a pretty sangular analysis of

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Speaker 1: what they control. Um, it's probably much smaller than that.

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Speaker 1: But you know, them demonstrating that they do not have

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Speaker 1: UM control over of the country as a pretty staggering

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Speaker 1: proposition and kind of indication to their allies that, UM,

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Speaker 1: you know, they just don't have the capacity to administer

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Speaker 1: a country that's unwilling to be pacified and um so

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Speaker 1: and and you know, on top of that, there's very

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Speaker 1: little I just don't see a pathway in which they

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Speaker 1: will capture more territory. UM. I mean they have, you know,

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Speaker 1: constrained resources. Um they have. I think they had twenty

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Speaker 1: two entrants into the Defense Service Academy last year. I

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Speaker 1: mean there's when they when there's casualties on the front lines,

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Speaker 1: you just there's not a lot of replacement happening. UM,

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Speaker 1: they're not able to get spare parts for their Russian

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Speaker 1: made helicopters. You know, there's just major material constraints that

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Speaker 1: the s a c. S. Military is facing, and it's

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Speaker 1: just hard to imagine that they will ever regained much

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Speaker 1: more than you know, what they say is territorial control. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's very if Then if we look at the

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Speaker 1: PDF by comparison, and I got banned from Twitter last

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Speaker 1: week for posting a picture of them, but it's there.

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Speaker 1: Their equipment compared to even a year ago, is vastly improved.

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Speaker 1: Like I don't know if you saw the one group

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Speaker 1: of guys with it actually international rifle, but I have

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Speaker 1: no idea where that came from, but it it's very

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Speaker 1: impressive that they have one. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of um. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: the resilience of this movement is partly a testament to

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Speaker 1: the ingenuity and innovation UM. I mean we saw it

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Speaker 1: in the beginning in the non violent action, demonstrating or

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Speaker 1: kind of deploying tactics that we've never seen before that

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Speaker 1: have you know, been lessons to other international non violent

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Speaker 1: movements around the world, just really creative fundraising tactics, as

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Speaker 1: you and I have discussed in the past. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: now it's the military ingenuity. I mean essentially creating UM

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Speaker 1: facilities for retrofitting drones for aerial attacks. Um. One of

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Speaker 1: the military's helicopters was taken down this morning. I haven't

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Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what weapons were used in that,

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Speaker 1: but you know, it's just kind of a level of

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Speaker 1: innovation given that these you know, the PDFs and most

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Speaker 1: of the eras have have very little access to very

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Speaker 1: few um kind of international um, you know, arms markets.

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Speaker 1: So the fact that they're able to sustain themselves at

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Speaker 1: all and maintain this, you know, which is probably much

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Speaker 1: more um of the territory is is kind of an

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Speaker 1: incredible testament to their innovation ingenuity. Yeah, it's this a

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Speaker 1: couple obviously of several PDF fighters who I keep in

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Speaker 1: touch with, and like they they've spoken to me about

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Speaker 1: like first or three D printed guns, which we've spoken

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Speaker 1: about extentively, but also torna CA's night vision goal goals,

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Speaker 1: even process is like like limbs people who have lost legs,

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Speaker 1: right to land, minds and things. So like, it's amazing

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Speaker 1: that they've set up all these things which normally require

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Speaker 1: like a massive interaction with the state and with an

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Speaker 1: international system, and they've done it using in this case,

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Speaker 1: the Internet and a three hundred dollar printer. They've got

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Speaker 1: an early Express or something. Yeah, it's incredible, Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: it's extremely sort of inspiration on that sense, but also

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Speaker 1: very sad like I want to talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about the s a C seems to have It's not

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Speaker 1: fair to say they've pivoted to war crimes, because it's

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Speaker 1: been kind of integral to what they've done from the outset,

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Speaker 1: but they seem to have given up on trying to

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Speaker 1: make like targeted strikes against the military formations and just

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Speaker 1: pivoted to dropping bombs on civilians. Could you talk about

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Speaker 1: a couple of those, like maybe we could talk about

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Speaker 1: the Kitchin music cultural festival that they bombed, or well

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Speaker 1: one of the other examples of that. Yeah, there's definitely

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Speaker 1: been a ship if from UM a strategy of essentially

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Speaker 1: augmenting UM or providing air support to UH kind of

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Speaker 1: exposed frontline light infantry to a tactic of targeted air

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Speaker 1: strikes against civilian targets and against UM armed organization headquarters

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Speaker 1: which had UM under previous UM negotiations been deemed like

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Speaker 1: off limits, but UM it seems as if there's nothing

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Speaker 1: off limits now. They bombed UM the Chin National Front's headquarters,

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Speaker 1: which is right on the India Chin border, UM on

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Speaker 1: the western part of the mr UM and there's pretty

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Speaker 1: reliable accounts that there were UM, there were bombs that

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Speaker 1: landed in Indian territory. UM. I mean, as you reference,

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Speaker 1: they there was a bombing in um a Chin state

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Speaker 1: on a on a festival, killing least sixty civilians. They've

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Speaker 1: done something similar on um Uh ethnic armed organization headquarters

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Speaker 1: in the southeastern current territories, including the our acount of

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Speaker 1: armies facilities in those areas. So there has been a

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Speaker 1: shift in tactic to UM targeting headquarters facilities in that sense,

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Speaker 1: and as you said, kind of civilian targets to I

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Speaker 1: don't know, you know, this is just the modus operandi

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Speaker 1: of an institution that is devoid of humanity and UM

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Speaker 1: so alienated from society that they you know, they're they're

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Speaker 1: willing to go to any ends to kind of protect

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Speaker 1: themselves and their control of power. I think, particularly now

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Speaker 1: that they've seen that the public is against them, and

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Speaker 1: UM probably quite concerned that if they are unsuccessful in

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Speaker 1: this military endeavor that they will be kind of strung up,

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Speaker 1: you know. So it's UM, I think it's kind of

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Speaker 1: a sign of desperation and as you mentioned, kind of

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Speaker 1: a tactical shift. Maybe we should explain the sort of

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Speaker 1: four cut strategy which has been a long term strategy

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Speaker 1: even before the coup of the military, and what that

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Speaker 1: means and how that sort of provide I guess, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, like a moral framework, maybe a certain way

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Speaker 1: that you know that it's it's not like they started

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Speaker 1: doing this ship in February one, right like that, this

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Speaker 1: is what this is how they do stuff. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is an institution that's been at war with its

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Speaker 1: own people for seventy years. Um. Yeah, I mean the

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Speaker 1: there is an underlying philosophy of the more military that

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Speaker 1: that they essentially are the protectors of national sovereignty and

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Speaker 1: to a certain degree of protectors of the Bomar ethnic

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Speaker 1: group and Bomar Buddhism in particular. And um, this is

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Speaker 1: a deeply in trance philosophy within the UM military establishment.

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Speaker 1: And UM it's been to a certain degree of fairly

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Speaker 1: compelling narrative for retention and institutional solidarity, which is why

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Speaker 1: in some part I mean, it's one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: there are a number why this the s A C.

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Speaker 1: And the the sit that memory military is has been

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Speaker 1: resilient to UM collapse, despite you know, being extremely incompetent

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Speaker 1: and UM very isolated UM and virtually never having one

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Speaker 1: a war despite being at war for seventy years and

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Speaker 1: having structural and military a vantages UM. And so this

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Speaker 1: is kind of underlying the justification and the moral philosophy

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Speaker 1: of this institution that is morally UM corrupted. But as

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Speaker 1: you said, their UM tactical strategy is essentially one of

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Speaker 1: social isolation, division UM and ensuring as much human suffering

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Speaker 1: as possible so as to UM pacify a population into

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Speaker 1: submissi sh in. And so essentially the strategy is to

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Speaker 1: kind of cut communications and food supply and um uh

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Speaker 1: connections between communities and these sorts of things, which is UM.

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Speaker 1: For for a very long time, the military strategy has

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Speaker 1: been one of divide and conquer, in which they've UM

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Speaker 1: attempted to exacerbate divisions between ethnic and religious minority communities

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Speaker 1: to ensure that they would not face a united front.

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Speaker 1: And so the incredible challenge and opportunity of the current

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Speaker 1: resistance movement is one in which the MIAM or military

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Speaker 1: is no longer at the table in conversations with one

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Speaker 1: another UM, and they are trying to build cohesion with

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Speaker 1: one another and Frankly, this is where there's unbelievable progress

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Speaker 1: that I don't think it's enough attention and appreciation that

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Speaker 1: there's meaningful changes in behavior in terms of the bomar

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Speaker 1: majority of the communities, posture towards ethnic and religious minorities,

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Speaker 1: and you know, communication and coordination across um institutions that

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Speaker 1: had historically been at odds and happy to go more

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Speaker 1: into that, but yeah, the strategy of divide and conqueror

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Speaker 1: is really front and center. Yeah, and ironically, by pushing

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Speaker 1: that so high that they've they've done the complete opposite,

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Speaker 1: which is forced people to form like a popular front

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Speaker 1: against them. Yeah, let's talk about that, because I find

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Speaker 1: it really fascinating how like even how like e A

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Speaker 1: O s and PDFs are kind of vaguely underneath a

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Speaker 1: unified command at this point. And again, let's talk about

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Speaker 1: how those barriers which existed for so long a sort

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Speaker 1: of gradually breaking down now yeah, rapidly. I guess one

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Speaker 1: of the ways in which there's been a meaningful shift

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Speaker 1: has been just kind of the individual experiences of the

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Speaker 1: military's atrocities. I mean, um, I think in your previous

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Speaker 1: episode with Gantomo, he had indicated that ps uh. You know,

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Speaker 1: public perception of Rohenja has shifted somewhat, although it's kind

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Speaker 1: of questionable whether it's a durable shift and whether it's

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Speaker 1: meaningful and all that. But um. He had attributed that

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Speaker 1: shift in part to the fact that the Bomar majority

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Speaker 1: Buddhist population is now experiencing frankly, some of the forms

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Speaker 1: of atrocity that the Rohenja had experienced, you know, in

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Speaker 1: the seventies and the nineties and then in seventeen UM

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Speaker 1: when things escalated to genocide. So I think this is

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Speaker 1: one of the shifts, is that the in the Burmese heartland,

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Speaker 1: in the area where the military recruits most of its soldiers, um,

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Speaker 1: they are undertaking the most arguably the most um extreme atrocities,

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Speaker 1: burning villages to the ground, um, you know, just horrendous

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Speaker 1: stuff that like I don't even want to say on

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Speaker 1: the air, but just um, you know, just an incredible

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Speaker 1: campaign of terror. Um. In part because the people's defense

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Speaker 1: forces and the resistance forces are are extremely strong there

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Speaker 1: and only strengthening and respond to these atrocities. So I

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Speaker 1: think that's one of the dynamics is that there's um,

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Speaker 1: there's been a shift in perception because of UM, because

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Speaker 1: of the Hunter's behavior. Another is that, frankly, there's just

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Speaker 1: a massive political shift at play. I mean, you have,

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Speaker 1: you know, February one, the National League, like Nationally for

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Speaker 1: Democracy Led Government is deposed and they don't necessarily have

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Speaker 1: arms or an experience of military combat, whereas the ethnic

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Speaker 1: armed organizations have been fighting for seventy years against the

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Speaker 1: central government, including the National League for Democracy Led Government.

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Speaker 1: And so there is a shift in power at that

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Speaker 1: moment um that you know, shift power from the BAMAR

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Speaker 1: Center to ethnic minority communities in a in a particular way.

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Speaker 1: So UM, that kind of open space for greater humility

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Speaker 1: and greater dialogue and UM, you know, willingness to make

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Speaker 1: concessions to ethnic and religious mi arty communities. UM. And

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Speaker 1: that isn't there's actually been tremendous progress there. So there's

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Speaker 1: the National Unity Consultative Council, which is you know, probably

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Speaker 1: the most important dialogue platform, but one one that is

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Speaker 1: very focused on big picture governance challenges UM and long

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Speaker 1: term kind of national dialogue processes. But UM, there's been

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Speaker 1: some good progress there. But frankly, the most progress has

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Speaker 1: been made in UM military and governance coordination platforms. So

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Speaker 1: this includes the C three C, which is essentially a

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Speaker 1: command of control platform that's between the National Unity government

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Speaker 1: and ethnic armed organization leadership where they're coordinating military strategy

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Speaker 1: and tactics. So that and there's been considerable trust building

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Speaker 1: through those sorts of operations. And similarly, there's been trust

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Speaker 1: building in you know, basic things like coordinating humanitarian assistance

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Speaker 1: or UM local administration or policing these sorts of things.

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Speaker 1: UM where there's UM, you know, there's a problem that's

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Speaker 1: needs to be solved in the near term, and we

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Speaker 1: can come together to solve it collaboratively and in that

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Speaker 1: process sort of build understanding and trust with one another.

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Speaker 1: So UM, there's been really meaningful differences I've seen in

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Speaker 1: terms of cohesion across traditional lines of intercommunal division. UM.

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Speaker 1: Obviously a long way to go, but this is a

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Speaker 1: lot of what what we're working on at the U

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Speaker 1: S and stitutent piece and UM that the U S

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Speaker 1: Government is supporting is trying to support the resistance capacity

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Speaker 1: to chart a viable pathway to stabilization, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of that relies upon building cohesion and trust among resistance groups. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: everyone I spoke to maybe not everyone I spoke to

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Speaker 1: is Mama, some people Karen UM, and some of them

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Speaker 1: were some of the people we've spoken to that remotely

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Speaker 1: or ranger. UM. All of them said that what has

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Speaker 1: to come out of this is like a federalized democracy.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that that's that's likely? And what does

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Speaker 1: that look like in the country it's been a war

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Speaker 1: with itself for most of the century. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: clearly this is a question that needs to be answered

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Speaker 1: by them people. UM. And I think the National Unity

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Speaker 1: Consultative Council is a good platform for having this discussion.

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Speaker 1: But there is a number of free requisits for for

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Speaker 1: having that discussion is and one of them is kind

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Speaker 1: of new norms of dialogue based on trust and mutual

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Speaker 1: um respect. But yeah, I think that, um, the only

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Speaker 1: viable pathway to stability is you know, is one that

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Speaker 1: results in a federal democratic system in which subnational federal

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Speaker 1: units have a degree of autonomy UM, and in which

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Speaker 1: there is a baseline of equality. UM. There's rule of law,

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Speaker 1: independent judiciary, UM. You know, just the basic fundamentals that

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Speaker 1: ensure protections of minority populations. Uh. UM. You know. Another

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Speaker 1: challenge being that even you know, within states like Kachin State,

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Speaker 1: where you know, the Kachin at the community is an

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Speaker 1: ethnic minority at the national level, but there are also

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Speaker 1: subminorities that you know, like the Shawnee population, and and

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Speaker 1: there's concerns that you know, there may um there needs

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Speaker 1: to be productions for the minorities within the minority state.

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Speaker 1: So you know, all of these things need to be

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Speaker 1: sort of worked out. And this is of course like

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Speaker 1: a maybe a decade long national dialogue process that will

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Speaker 1: ultimately culminate in a new federal governance structure, a new

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Speaker 1: security structure that you know, maybe doesn't have a federal

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Speaker 1: you know, a union level military with the level of

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Speaker 1: autonomy or political involvement that you know has played this

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Speaker 1: country for so long. But this is really like the

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Speaker 1: key to long term peace and stability in the country.

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Speaker 1: And frankly, like it felt a long way off under

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Speaker 1: the NLD administration. I mean, they were making a lot

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Speaker 1: of progress in a lot of ways, but you know,

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Speaker 1: building a just and inequitable governance structure in which ethnic

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Speaker 1: and religious minorities had a voice and didn't feel oppressed

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Speaker 1: by the dominant but mor Budhist population. Um. Frankfully, it

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Speaker 1: was it was quite a ways off, and this, you know,

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Speaker 1: as horrible as the coup has been, it is definitely

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Speaker 1: a shock to the system that may open up new

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Speaker 1: pathways for dialogue, um, new opportunities for trust building, and

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Speaker 1: you know, the opportunity to you know, think about a

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Speaker 1: new model of governance that is you know, more just

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Speaker 1: more equitable and more inclusive. Yeah, it's definitely bought in

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Speaker 1: a whole generation of younger people who like aren't sort

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Speaker 1: of why didn't come through the institutions that created the

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Speaker 1: old regime and just came at this. It's like I'm

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Speaker 1: seventeen and I'm bucking angry and like, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: make this better sort of however I can. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're they're really, i mean obviously very inspirational and then

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Speaker 1: fascinated to talk to I wonder, like, how do you

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Speaker 1: see the end to this conflict? Because we're still a

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Speaker 1: long way from either side having a definitive military victory. Right, Certainly,

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Speaker 1: all these big cities are still more or less controlled

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Speaker 1: by the Hunter, and that's there's not an immediate way

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Speaker 1: that I can foresee them not being that way. So

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Speaker 1: if I could ask you to like speculate a little

401
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Speaker 1: bit or look at the way things are going. How

402
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Speaker 1: do we get out of the situation where the hunters

403
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Speaker 1: bombing schools and music concerts and right, um m hmm,

404
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Speaker 1: it's yeah. This is honestly like I think everyone is

405
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Speaker 1: kind of lost, um in our attempts to make predictions

406
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Speaker 1: of where this is going. Um. Honestly, I don't know

407
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Speaker 1: that there is a path to a military victory for

408
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Speaker 1: either side here. UM. I mean it seems pretty unlikely

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Speaker 1: that you'll SEEPDS marching on nepied on capturing the Ministry

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Speaker 1: of Defense anytime soon. Um. But equally unlikely that the

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Speaker 1: s a C will consolidate, you know, control of the country.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's just that's just not going to happen. UM.

413
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Speaker 1: So I mean the the a lot of our work

414
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Speaker 1: is thinking through the best postile outcomes and increasing the

415
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Speaker 1: probably trying doing the work to try to increase the

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Speaker 1: probability of those outcomes. And I think the um, this

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Speaker 1: is where it's just like I have questions for a

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Speaker 1: lot of the international actors that are supporting the s

419
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Speaker 1: a C because I I just don't know of any

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Speaker 1: possible pathway to peace and stabilization that goes through a

421
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Speaker 1: stronger s a C. It just seems unfathomable. Um, But

422
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Speaker 1: you know, there are pathways to stabilization that go through

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Speaker 1: a stronger resistance movement that either yields some radical transformation

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Speaker 1: of the SACS composition and then some sort of dialogue

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Speaker 1: process UM or you know, just a very very extended

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Speaker 1: uh um conflict in which you know, the resistance holds

427
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Speaker 1: territory UM in some parts of the country, the SAC

428
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Speaker 1: controls some other areas UM. Over an extended period, the

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Speaker 1: ethnic armed organizations contain kind of UM act more and

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Speaker 1: more autonomously. And you have areas in you know, Kachin

431
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: and Wa Ho Kong and the Chinese border re kind

432
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: state that kind of gained a bit more autonomy and

433
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: sort of act more independently of one another. So like

434
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 1: this sort of fragmentation process. And honestly, if if there

435
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 1: is an election, you know, a sham election by the

436
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 1: s a C, it seems to increase the probability of

437
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: this fragmentation scenario. Um. You know, it increases the probability

438
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: that the s a C just maintains its presence in

439
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 1: the in the urban areas and then rekind state Kachin

440
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 1: State Waw State, these kind of become more autonomous regions,

441
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: Chin State, UM, and they start to operate as some

442
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: independent states. So honestly, that's that's part of why I

443
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 1: feel like support to the SAC. Not only is it

444
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 1: sec for the elections, I should say, not only does

445
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 1: it almost definitely increase violence because you know the elections

446
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: are a target, but also it increases the probability of

447
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: national fragmentation UM. And it doesn't do anything to increase

448
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 1: the probability of stability. So I just don't I don't

449
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: really see that that being a pathway to any form

450
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: of stability or ending the SACS bombings of schools. Yeah,

451
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: I think it gives them this way talking point bit

452
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: at the Russian shamow elections in the dom Bass, like

453
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: like because we saw like I think it was a

454
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: mobi a PDFU. I don't know if you saw this,

455
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: but they did a drive by and shot some people

456
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: who were polling for it out doing some kind of

457
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: election stuff, and obviously that gives them this kind of oh, look,

458
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: our election workers are being attacked with terrible people. The

459
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: PDFs a kind of but you know, if you've spent

460
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,719
Speaker 1: more than ten minutes your entire life reading about Miama,

461
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: then you're realized that that's the false claim. The international

462
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: community just just doesn't seem to care to a large

463
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: degree about the trustees in Miama, about the revolution in Miama,

464
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: about the cou and miam A certainly doesn't care in

465
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: the same way that it cares about what's happening in Ukraine. Right,

466
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: it doesn't care with man pads and tanks and guns

467
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: and training and all the things that could bring this

468
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: water an end much more quickly. Do you think that

469
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: that will change or it's just going to be Burmese

470
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: people liberating Burmese people because the world doesn't care about

471
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: them or it doesn't care in a material fashion. Yeah,

472
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 1: I think there's like, yeah, I think there's um sort

473
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: of like two dynamics that player. One is that, yeah,

474
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: people care a lot less than Ukraine or Tiwan or

475
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: other geopolitical interest. They see this to a certain level

476
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: as a domestic issue that doesn't have regional implications, something

477
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: that we're very focused on demonstrating is totally untrue. Um.

478
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: And the other thing is that people don't know what

479
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: to do. And like I mean, even um, the US

480
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: Congress just past the Burma Act, which is a piece

481
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: of legislation that essentially signals congressional interest in Burma and

482
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: more to be done UM, alongside appropriations and resources to

483
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: support it. UM. The challenge now is figuring out what

484
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: is the best use of resources. And I think that

485
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: UM countries like Japan and UM, honestly some U states,

486
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: you know, Ascan states. It's more they are very uncomfortable

487
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: with the engaging with revolutionary actors and there's just not

488
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: a lot of certainty as to how to help because

489
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: there's like, okay, military assistance UM to the end eu G.

490
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: It's like there's a lot of concern that you know,

491
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: you know, significant expansion of arms access in the countries.

492
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: You know, you have this mass proliferation of weapons. You

493
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: have you know, concerns about post conflict warlordism or weapons

494
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: and resources getting into the hands of narco traffickers. UM.

495
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: You know, there's just a lot of uncertainty, and so

496
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: there's not an adequate given what the first point that

497
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: this is really a kind of peripheral regional matter in

498
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: the eyes of some UM. It yields a very low

499
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: risk tolerance and uncertainty as to what to do. And

500
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: so this kind of has resulted in a couple of things,

501
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: one being that the buck is just passed to multilateral

502
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: institutions like ACON. I mean, I think China has done

503
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: a very effective job of ensuring nothing happens in the

504
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: international realm UM by pushing it to ascon which it

505
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: knows is incapable of doing anything meaning well. UM, and

506
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: so it's just relegated to multilateral platforms where nothing will happen.

507
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: You always have a veto from UM Highland Cambodia or

508
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: Russia and China at the n S, at the Security

509
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: Council UM, and so you know, it's these combinations of

510
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: factors that really challenge this thing. And even within the

511
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: U S. Government there's like a very robust inter agency

512
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: debate about exactly what is the best form of assistance,

513
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: what is the most ethical way of engaging and UM

514
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: what are risks associated with different forms of assistance to

515
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: the resistance movement UM. So I think that uncertainty plays

516
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: a lot into it, and so UM a lot of

517
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: what I think there's a lot of value that could

518
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: be added if UM the resistance movement can come together,

519
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: essentially around a common set of requests from the international community.

520
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 1: Essentially saying this is what we need, um to be effective.

521
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: And you know you, based on your risk tolerance, help

522
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: us as you can. But we're demonstrating to you that

523
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: we have we're unified in these ways, we have these needs,

524
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: and um, you know, help us however you feel is

525
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: most appropriate given your risk tolerance. So I don't know,

526
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: it's incredibly complicated. I think them having China, India, Bangladesh,

527
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: Thailand and Laos as your neighbors also makes this just

528
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: incredibly challenging. You can't access the country in the way

529
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: that you can um for Ukraine. Um, so just logistically,

530
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: it's incredibly challenging. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, it does seem

531
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: still like like you said, like it's like in Ukraine,

532
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: we also have deeply problematic groups who we are, who

533
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: we are arming, And yeah, it's it's ironic that their

534
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: concern is spreading the preventing the proliferation in arms, and

535
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: what they've done is helped like a giant leap forward

536
00:33:54,200 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: in I don't artisanal homemade weapons technology, like we're probably

537
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: only seeing the very tip of and like our reporting, like,

538
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: I'm sure that's more stuff that we'll see as time

539
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: goes on. And but I wonder what can people do?

540
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: People often ask like if where they can donate, how

541
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: they can help, right, because obviously it is extremely difficult

542
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 1: to see little kids getting shot in schools and want

543
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: to do something. And I wonder what you would suggest

544
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: for people who are looking to help. We've both spoken

545
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,280
Speaker 1: to people who are collecting money through click to donate,

546
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: which is one thing people can do. But um, do

547
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: you want to explain that, actually explain how people can

548
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,919
Speaker 1: and can participate in click to donate? I think that's cool. Yeah,

549
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 1: I mean there's been a number of really fascinating fundraising models. Um. Yeah,

550
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 1: the click to notating model is essentially the resistance leveraging

551
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: what it has um a comparative advantage in which is

552
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 1: huge numbers of people on their side. And essentially, um,

553
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: the resistance creates creates web pages or YouTube content or anything,

554
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: and you know, just engages the advertisements on those pages,

555
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 1: which create increases the value of those that ad space

556
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 1: and then they can kind of generate revenue that way. Um.

557
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 1: The National Unity government has also done some really fascinating

558
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:18,359
Speaker 1: stuff issuing bonds, uh, conducting a lottery, um, selling off

559
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: you know s a c military properties. I think they

560
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 1: just sold the mini on a lines house and yangon

561
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 1: for a considerable amount UM. So it's kind of a

562
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: an incredible fundraising model and requiring tremendous innovation. They also

563
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: created uh a financial technology called and u g pay

564
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: and a digital current currency d mmk um. So yeah,

565
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,399
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of a remarkable um innovation there. Um.

566
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: In terms of what kind of a uh your listeners

567
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: could do, I think, UM, you know, I think engaging

568
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: in UH so of the international kind of advocacy and

569
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: awareness raising is really valuable. I think some of these

570
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 1: things like if you know, if you're a congress person

571
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: acknowledges demand for this, then that can increase that the

572
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 1: pressure that they put on the State Department, d D,

573
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,720
Speaker 1: National Security Council UM and potentially increase the risk tolerance

574
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: of the US government if if there's just more pressure there.

575
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: So those sorts of things I think, UM. Honestly engaging

576
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 1: with some of the content that's being that's being created

577
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: by the resistance, learning about my mr um, you know,

578
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: just just following the story. I mean it's like, I

579
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: don't know, you've probably experienced this doing your reporting, but

580
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: it's just like the most unbelievable stories of human resilience

581
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: and just like, I don't know, it's it's such like

582
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: an honor to be nearby these people who are just

583
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: risking so much for such a for such an honorable

584
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: pos that they truly believe in. It's just like the

585
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 1: quintessential example of integrity and um, yeah, goodness, Yeah, it's amazing.

586
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,320
Speaker 1: It's stuff you couldn't make up, and like it's stories

587
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: you can sell as fiction almost like yeah, their integrity,

588
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: like even they're like and one thing I find absolutely amazing,

589
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: Like you said, perspectives on ethnic groups have changed on

590
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 1: so many things that people they're willingness to be like,

591
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: I've examined my stance on this and it was the

592
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 1: wrong stance, and I'm changing my stance on this. It's

593
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 1: like we spoke to so many young people who were like, yeah,

594
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 1: I was fairly misogynist, like a February first one, and

595
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: since then, like I fought alongside women. I've you know,

596
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 1: I've seen them do things that I didn't. I've been

597
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: told that they weren't capable of and I've changed I

598
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 1: was wrong, and like we need to not be a

599
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: misogynist country going forward. Yeah, no, there was I was

600
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: maybe you know this group, but I was engaging with

601
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: organization and that was it's led by kind of an activist,

602
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 1: former activist um and he was kind of saying that

603
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 1: they've essentially tried to eliminate all of the sort of

604
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: misogyny in their in their training protocols, like even just

605
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: using terms like man up or something. It's like wiped

606
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: it from their approach because it's like that's a misogynistic

607
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 1: kind of you know, approach to thinking about strength and power.

608
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: And so it's like what you're saying is I'm here,

609
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: I'm feeling the same hearing the same things. It's which

610
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 1: is incredibly powerful given particularly given the pressures and what

611
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,439
Speaker 1: they're all going through, just having the wherewithal to kind

612
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: of like their head ups and think about, you know,

613
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,320
Speaker 1: be reflective of themselves. Like imagine in the American political discourse,

614
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 1: people actually changing their minds for once. It's remarkable. Yeah, yeah,

615
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: the genuine is. And it's it's refreshing in that sense

616
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 1: to see people like wanting the right thing and not

617
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,839
Speaker 1: letting tiny differences like blow them into seven thousand different pieces, right,

618
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 1: the broad date ring on one thing, yeah, exactly, And

619
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: that's kind of the remarkable. I mean the Nationally Unity

620
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: Consultative Council for example. You know, it's how its challenges

621
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: UM as a dialogue platform, but it's still going and

622
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,760
Speaker 1: that is like people are still coming to the table.

623
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: And frankly, it's remarkable because repeatedly, in quote unquote peace

624
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: processes in MR history, they've collapsed because you know, someone

625
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: said something and you know another party left the table

626
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 1: um and didn't return. So the fact that these dialogues

627
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: are continuing on is an incredible testament to people's willingness

628
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 1: to kind of open up and be more humble and

629
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: kind of consider the other's opinion and question their own,

630
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: which is you know, a lesson we could all learn. Yeah, yeah, definitely, Billy,

631
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 1: where can people like, where can people find you online?

632
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: And where can they find more good information about my

633
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 1: mba UM I am. You know, if you search Billy

634
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 1: Ford at us I P dot org, you and find

635
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 1: the stuff I've written recently, and then I'm on Twitter

636
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: at b I L L E. The number four, the

637
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 1: letter d UM and good sources of information. I mean

638
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: there's great UM investigative work by Myanmar witness UM which

639
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 1: is just an incredible group of researchers. Um, there's been

640
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 1: a couple of good reports recently by Global Witness and

641
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 1: Earth Rights related to sanctions that just came out. Um

642
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 1: U s I P. You can check out some of

643
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: our writing. My colleagues Jason Tower in Brasilo Coop just

644
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: published something related to how the conflict has regional consequences

645
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: that could be of interest. Um and UM there's I

646
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,720
Speaker 1: don't know, there's innumerable great um meam R think Tanks,

647
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,800
Speaker 1: the Chin Human Rights Organization has done some incredible research

648
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: and reporting about military atrocities and Chin state. Um. You

649
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 1: could go on and on, but um. Yeah, if you

650
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 1: don't know, check out my Twitter. I've I tend to

651
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: repost stuff that I find fascinating and there's there's a

652
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 1: lot out there. Yeah. Great, Well, thank you so much

653
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: for giving us some of your time this afternoon. I

654
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: really appreciate it. It's good to catch up. Yeah, thanks

655
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: for having me. James has been great, no worries, Hello

656
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 1: and welcome to It could happen here once again hosted

657
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 1: by myself and Drew. As you know, we talked about whatever.

658
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: We've entered a new year, so you know, Happy New

659
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 1: Year by the way, James, I don't think I told you.

660
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Happy New Year, Andrew. Yeah. What I've in

661
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 1: question this time is carrying over from some of the

662
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 1: discussions we had in the previous year, because you know,

663
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:52,320
Speaker 1: time moves forward. Uh, And with time moving forward, hopefully

664
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: to know it, it becomes excreasingly necessary, very very necessary

665
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 1: to interrogate into uproot a lot of the classical capitleists

666
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:06,240
Speaker 1: I ideas embedded in a world, an ideology, for example,

667
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: it just won't die, that idea of development, despite as

668
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 1: many critics over the past few decades, despite the colonizing

669
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 1: and post clear nations, people of those nations you know,

670
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 1: rallying against such projects of development due to the harms

671
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 1: they've caused socially environments and otherwise, this ideology, this idea

672
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: of development, just won't die. Um. But here we are,

673
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 1: and I think at least here in this podcast, among

674
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 1: the audience of this podcast, we can agree that the

675
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 1: time has come for some kind of alternative. Maybe some

676
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: kind of alternative can happen here, you know, a different view,

677
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 1: a new path you all frecurrently have and stage right

678
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: when vere are you familiar with the concept, I'm not

679
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 1: actually no, we fun to learn about all right, well, fantastic,

680
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 1: So you could ask anything any questions you have about

681
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: it as I go along. So a lot of the

682
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: early concepts related to this idea of when Vivie arose

683
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 1: in reaction to the classical economic development strategies that have

684
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 1: ripped through communities in their environments. I'm talking of course

685
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:24,720
Speaker 1: about acts of inclosure, prioritization, new life, new liberalization, economic

686
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,800
Speaker 1: imperialisms and so forth. Capitalism and its element basically government

687
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 1: projects that lyne the pockets of politicians and bureaucrats, development banks,

688
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 1: quote and quote that really never seemed to fund the

689
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 1: people directly. When Revere draws from this heritage, a heritage

690
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: of indigenous communities, uh, particularly in South America, in some cultures,

691
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: they have no concepts analogous to the modern western capitalist

692
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: concept of development. Of course, modernis and coots. There's no

693
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: concept of a linear life, a linear time, even with

694
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: a foreman subsequent state. And so the idea of underdevelopment

695
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,839
Speaker 1: and development of primitive and advance just does not mesh

696
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 1: with that ontology. And all these and these concepts of

697
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 1: wealth and poverty, no are they are necessarily concepts of

698
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: wealth and poverty as we understand them based on the

699
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:25,720
Speaker 1: accumulational lack of material good I've said when revere probably

700
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,320
Speaker 1: a dozen times by now. The question is what is

701
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: when revere? In Latin America, the concept of gen vivere

702
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 1: or good life or good living provides new alternatives to development. UM,

703
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: and it's very nstitute. I feel like, I feel like

704
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 1: it's something that we should have been working on for

705
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 1: a really long time. UM. You know, like me personally,

706
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: I don't know what you James, but I really care

707
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: about GDP growth or increase in return on investment. You know,

708
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,399
Speaker 1: I care about living a good life. I care about

709
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 1: gen vivere. And so I think the name of the

710
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: philosophy itself and the name of the concept itself automatically

711
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: gets you to ask the question what is a good life?

712
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 1: And the answer, the beauty of the answer is that

713
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 1: you decide that, I decide, that we decide that our

714
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 1: communities decide that collaboratively. The good life is not some

715
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 1: sort of policy proposal or government project or development initiative.

716
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: For imposition, the good life is a pluralistic concept. Is

717
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: when nos contrivers it's a different ways of living well

718
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:41,839
Speaker 1: together it's not a single homogeneous or unrealizable good life.

719
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 1: It's not like this single homogeneous pursuit of profit that

720
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 1: our entire system is built around. Now now the good

721
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: life when revere, it's more about people living well together

722
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: in a community, in different communities living well together, and

723
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 1: individuals and communities living well with nature. And that these

724
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: concepts sound familiar, it's because you know, they must have

725
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,320
Speaker 1: heard it from other places. It's a it's a trend

726
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 1: we're starting to see around the world in this twenty

727
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 1: centery and even prior to then. Uh, these ideas are

728
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: solely gained one more esteem as time goes on. Um.

729
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: You know, the ideas presence in social ecology, The idea

730
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 1: is present in various animals, tomtologies, and they're really being

731
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:23,839
Speaker 1: brought to the forefront in this time because we need

732
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 1: them now more than ever. Despite efforts of Western forces

733
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: primarily to erase and to redact and to confine these

734
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 1: ideas and these contexts of the realm of irrelevance or

735
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: backwardsness or superstition, they endure in sometimes new forms, as

736
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:49,399
Speaker 1: with gen Revere. What Reviere is about quality of life,

737
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 1: but also molso the idea that quality of life I

738
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 1: will well be in as individuals. It's only possible within

739
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 1: a community. The community, which as I mentioned includes the

740
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: floor and flour that's surround us and in many ways

741
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: that can be interpreted, which is the real beauty of it.

742
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,479
Speaker 1: So as a concept, you kind of look at wend Revere.

743
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 1: It's two word phrase and it's also a double barrel

744
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: of a concept. It's a two for one package of

745
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:21,280
Speaker 1: both criticism of the classical western capitalist notion of development

746
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:26,320
Speaker 1: and an alternative to that Eurocentric tradition but onto indigenous

747
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: traditions plural and so that two for one package within

748
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 1: that and you can really unpack that package and see

749
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 1: that you know, you see the idea of the same

750
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 1: sort of basis that the growth is getting its critique

751
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: from the same sort of ideas being shared. And in

752
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 1: terms of alternatives, when you look into wend review, you

753
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 1: sort of see the anarchic bent that has become ever

754
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: more present in a new political imaginations over the past

755
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 1: few years. At least it feels that way to me.

756
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: That's um, that sort of community oriented, autonomy oriented, liberatory,

757
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 1: decoding oriented mindset is becoming more and more prevalent. Of course,

758
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 1: I could be you know, my own Internet biases and

759
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 1: algorithms present to me what I want to see. But

760
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: I would like to think that more and more people

761
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: are exploring these ideas. Yeah, it is hard to say

762
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 1: his because I feel the same way, Like am I

763
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 1: am I seeing whatever? It's like, Oh that these new

764
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 1: institutes and initiatives and programs and movements, it's so amazing

765
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:36,879
Speaker 1: all these things are developing. And then like you talk

766
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 1: to somebody who is not like in this fair and

767
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:45,239
Speaker 1: they haven't heard of any of it. Yeah, you know,

768
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 1: it's like they still think anarchism means, like I don't know,

769
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 1: throwing a breakthrough a window like that is the whole ideology.

770
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 1: And yeah, I don't know. We can hope, we can hope,

771
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 1: we can hope. I would like to think it's getting

772
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:00,840
Speaker 1: more prominence, but we can only hope. And so like

773
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 1: so like anarkis are too keen on, you know, necessarily

774
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 1: submitting to earn and I gus some sense that's like

775
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: Google Vlee and sense or some kind um. But I

776
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 1: would like to think that anarchic ideas UM, I mean,

777
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 1: and all the exploration that I've done of um various

778
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 1: parts of the world however, you know, shallow my expliration

779
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 1: has been so far, Um, I just I see it

780
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: could be my anarchist tinted glasses seeing anarchic principles and everything.

781
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 1: But I see it in certain practices, in sign ideologies

782
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 1: and sign ideas and you know, ways of living. And

783
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 1: I think gen Vere is a sort of a recognition

784
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 1: of that in one sense. So there is no single

785
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 1: gen Vivere, right, there is no single good life, you know,

786
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 1: I might want. For example, my ben view might look like, uh,

787
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 1: sailing the Caribbean Sea, um, you know, touching down in

788
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 1: various islands and exploring the ecology therein. Or my good

789
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 1: life it looked like a more settled sort of homestead

790
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 1: existence um, or sort of a fusion of urban and

791
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 1: rural living. Uh, sort of a good ending for the suburbs,

792
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: where you're able to live in a walkable sort of

793
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 1: environment and community that is both not too far from

794
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: you know, the goings on of human social interaction, but

795
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 1: also very much rooted and connected with, um, what's happening

796
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: in the natural world. But I mean, what might your

797
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 1: good life, your ben revie look like. James, Yeah, that's interesting,

798
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 1: isn't it. I think, Uh, you know, I grew up

799
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: in the countryside, so with light the idea of living

800
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: in a rural area and still having community and having

801
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: like that, being like to nature, and still also being

802
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 1: close to people who I care about and being able

803
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,240
Speaker 1: to look after each other. I think it's interesting how often,

804
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 1: like at least the sort of set like colonial concept

805
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 1: of rural life or the construct of real life. I

806
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 1: guess in America it's like, oh, rugged individualism, being on

807
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 1: your own one in fact, like living in the countryside,

808
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 1: people have to look after one another. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

809
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 1: We maintain this kind of this this false idea that

810
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,720
Speaker 1: it's you against thee against the elements and crushing nature

811
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 1: and subjecting it to your will and all this stuff. Yeah,

812
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 1: And I think that's there's something interesting about at least

813
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: the people have spoken to um in various circles and stuff.

814
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 1: When I asked them, you know, what is your ideal life?

815
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 1: What is your good life? I don't necessarily say when viewed.

816
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 1: I just asked them, you know what do you want? Um?

817
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 1: And you dig into it? You asked him a couple

818
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: of problem questions, and people, despite ben vvie being a

819
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 1: pluralistic concept, people tend to generally want similar things, and

820
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 1: so it sort of begs the question, like, why are

821
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 1: we in this situation in the first please, you know,

822
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 1: because like everyone says, well, you know, I want like

823
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 1: an involved community, and I want like I want to

824
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:16,839
Speaker 1: be able to grow my plans, and I also want

825
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 1: to be able to do my arts and uh, you know,

826
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 1: enjoy my time of people and do a bit of

827
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 1: travel and not work my whole life and that kind

828
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 1: of thing. People of course phrase it and frame it

829
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: in certain ways. And so that's why I asked the

830
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: proving questions because what might initially say, oh, well, like

831
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 1: I want to retire early. I want to really dig

832
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 1: into that means it's like I don't want to spend

833
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 1: my whole life working, you know. Or they might say

834
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 1: something like, um, you know, I want to I want

835
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 1: to travel a lot, so I want to like start

836
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: a business. When you ask them what kind of business

837
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 1: they want to start, why they want to start a business,

838
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: it really comes down to I want autonomy. I want

839
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 1: flexibility in my labor. I want to control of my

840
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 1: own le book kind of thing. Like yes, of course

841
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 1: they are people who have they couldn't qute entrepreneur spirit

842
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 1: who want to just be at the top of the

843
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: food chain. But then I think mostly entrepreneurs they couldn't

844
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:15,440
Speaker 1: qute entrepreneurs that I've met up in people who just like, oh, well,

845
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 1: you know, I started selling candles because I really like

846
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 1: making candles and I wanted to share them with people,

847
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: and I also need to make a living and I'm

848
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: just passionate about it or whatever that kind of thing.

849
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 1: It's undernecessarily wanted to grow it or whatever. They just

850
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 1: want to be able to sustain themselves doing something that

851
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: they enjoy. Yeah, it's interesting because we're always sold like

852
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:39,800
Speaker 1: every new advancing technology and in production that comes along,

853
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: like these concepts you're talking about, like like working less,

854
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 1: having community, all these things like always sold as what

855
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 1: that's going to do, right, like, but instead we end

856
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 1: up working more or the same amount and instead just

857
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 1: generating more income for a certain group of people. Like

858
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:59,919
Speaker 1: we don't get any of these good things. But yeah,

859
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 1: there's there's always a carrot in whatever this kind of

860
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:06,359
Speaker 1: neoliberal capitalism that we have is, but we never get

861
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 1: there exactly. That's the tragedy of it. Another aspect of

862
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 1: you know, the idea of the good life is that

863
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 1: it's not a static concept, right, It's not like we

864
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 1: come up with this good life that's when we here

865
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:19,879
Speaker 1: where we want for ourselves. Now we etch it into

866
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 1: stone tablets and piously here to them forever like the

867
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 1: Ten Commandments. Like nah, you know, the good life is

868
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:27,320
Speaker 1: supposed to be flexible when the video is what responding

869
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 1: to your conditions, the conditions of the community or ecology, etcetera,

870
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 1: and really redefineing what it means to go to live

871
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:36,879
Speaker 1: a good life continuously, you know, in response to change

872
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:42,439
Speaker 1: and circumstances, because you know changes life. Um, of course

873
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 1: not is this idea to good life quote unquote backward

874
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 1: concept so problematic fram in and of itself. But um

875
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:56,919
Speaker 1: sometimes you have to use problematic shortcuts to community kids effectively.

876
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 1: But the yea when revideo is not like an invitation

877
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 1: to return to some idea like past or ide like

878
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 1: non past, you like nonexistent world that people are sort

879
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 1: of mentally constructed, as in the case of a lot

880
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 1: of these romanticizations you see on social media. Um, be

881
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:19,320
Speaker 1: in video is not like some kind of religion with

882
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 1: its own rules and functions. But it's and it's not

883
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: Also it's not imposing that you must become a home

884
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: insteader or a forager, you must live in a rural

885
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 1: community to live a good life. There's more possibilities yet unrealized. UM.

886
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 1: And it should be something that is, it should be

887
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:41,320
Speaker 1: considered something that is undergoing a constant construction and reproduction process.

888
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:44,800
Speaker 1: And that's I think way of the global potential that

889
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:48,320
Speaker 1: when review a lize UM. You know, that's why I

890
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:51,799
Speaker 1: think there's viral potential for it. I mean, of course,

891
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 1: when you look at a lot of the things that

892
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 1: end up dominating the social media news cycle, it's a

893
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 1: lot of negativity UM dominating current discourse right now, I

894
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:10,440
Speaker 1: think is the topic of masculinity and UM, particularly the

895
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 1: prevalence of ah Andrew teats and you know, UM, you

896
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 1: also have the constantly bubbling under the surface existence of

897
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 1: in cells UM and so and then you go on TikTok.

898
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 1: I don't know if you go on TikTok, James, I

899
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: don't know. That's the point I would just like anymore. Yeah,

900
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 1: I should have made that decision, But I mean I

901
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:45,279
Speaker 1: kind of like TikTok because UM, I don't know how

902
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 1: other people are curiats in there their fo you pages,

903
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:51,320
Speaker 1: but by four you pages. Um a place I enjoy

904
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 1: being out a bit too much, which is why I

905
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 1: have like limits on my phone to prevent me from

906
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 1: staying on TikTok for too long. But yeah, it's a

907
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: place that I enjoy way and um. You see a

908
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 1: lot of trends come and go on TikTok right now.

909
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:06,880
Speaker 1: The big thing is like Niche stock and core core um,

910
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:13,319
Speaker 1: which I know is is probably Greek to you, yes, um,

911
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 1: but in that general v and if you were to

912
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 1: see what those trends were, I think you get a

913
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 1: sense of when I'm talking about Niche shock and Corko

914
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 1: and then as well, so it seems to be an

915
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 1: attempt to um rebrand the idea of Sigma um and

916
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 1: the Sigma male. It started off as a very you know,

917
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 1: patriarchal thing, and then I've seen a couple of different

918
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 1: creators who who didn't a sort of an ironic or

919
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 1: a post ironic sense um as a sort of a meme,

920
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:46,919
Speaker 1: because it became a meme to make fun of people

921
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:50,640
Speaker 1: who take it seriously. Um. And then from that that

922
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 1: sort of mumification of it, people said reclaimed the tomb

923
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 1: um and then it became a sort of you see, um,

924
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 1: you see like a video where I, um does something

925
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 1: polite or something, you know, shiver us something kind and

926
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 1: the comments are like, um, typical sigma, true sigma, this

927
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 1: is what true signal looks like. Kind of um. So

928
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 1: I think it's just a national aspect that they fluid

929
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 1: it to you the Internet, the fickles of the interne

930
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 1: because I'm sure they're still they have the misogynistic Sigma people,

931
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:28,040
Speaker 1: they still exist. But then there's also people who memes

932
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 1: themselves into a brand of Sigma that's kind of a

933
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 1: way pseudo positive masculinity. It's kind of interesting. Um. I'll

934
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 1: continue to do my TikTok anthropological research and and you know,

935
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 1: discuss my findings as this situation develops. But in that

936
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:54,880
Speaker 1: vein of in that vein of comunification, and those are developments,

937
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 1: I think there is a potential of wend Vera to

938
00:58:56,840 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 1: become a global phenomenon, to have that Google potential, to

939
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 1: have a global reach because and then there's something in

940
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: it for the people. The there's also an anti work

941
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 1: current present in a lot of TikTok trends, so you know,

942
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 1: it's it's something too and again again, I see there's

943
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:18,000
Speaker 1: an anti currency or the TikTok trends, but those are

944
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 1: the TikTok trends. I ain't being presented with the post

945
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 1: ironic rebrandification or whatever. Sigma is something my for you

946
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:27,800
Speaker 1: pee has given me. It's not necessarily reflective of the

947
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 1: entirety of reality. And that's the scary part of the Internet, right,

948
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 1: Like you're not seeing the full reality, You're seeing algorithmically

949
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:39,960
Speaker 1: produced version and skewed version of reality. Yeah, yeah, it's

950
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 1: interesting to me, how like, like most people I encounter

951
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:44,960
Speaker 1: on a daily basis will not know what will where

952
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 1: me and marras and like if I look at my

953
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 1: Twitter page right now, it's just all like half of it.

954
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 1: It's in Burmese, you know, and there's lots of people

955
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:57,040
Speaker 1: I follow and that that's like my reality. But yeah,

956
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 1: sort of. Then I get really frustrated when when people

957
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:04,800
Speaker 1: don't have a clue what's going on there exactly exactly,

958
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's can't tricky. It's kind tricky because

959
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 1: you really in terms that they really get a sense of,

960
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 1: how you know, in moments like those where you confront

961
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 1: that in real life, it's like okay, So like my

962
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:21,920
Speaker 1: my possession of reality is like slightly skewed by the Internet,

963
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, in ways that I am aware and

964
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 1: not aware of, in ways that other people are aware

965
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:32,640
Speaker 1: not aware of. So that's interesting. We're back to when review,

966
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:34,920
Speaker 1: right when we view. I think it is also like

967
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:37,360
Speaker 1: a path for decolonization, you know, sort of a way

968
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:39,120
Speaker 1: to let go of a lot of the Western norms

969
01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:43,000
Speaker 1: and impositions and speech and dress and labor and lifestyle

970
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 1: and knowledge and social norms and relationships and ceteral and

971
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 1: adopting ways of life that are count for our cultures

972
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 1: and conditions free of those mental I think that it's

973
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 1: the power of when reviere. So I guess another question arises,

974
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:01,720
Speaker 1: who or where, oh when did when review come from?

975
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 1: And so the radical questioning that birthedpen Revere was made

976
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 1: possible within several indigenous traditions in South America, which, as

977
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 1: I said, culturally lack tic concepts of developmental progress. And

978
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:17,960
Speaker 1: so the contribution of indigenous knowledge brend Revere continues to

979
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:22,240
Speaker 1: be the sort of critical threat. Associated values and experiences

980
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 1: and practices and worldviews of interview already existed in some

981
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 1: form before the arrival of um European conquistadors, but they

982
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 1: were of the process of qualization, silence, and marginalized and

983
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 1: even openly opposed. Brendeverea is part of a long leg

984
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 1: you see, long quest along pursuits of alternative lifestyles forged

985
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 1: from the passionate battles of indigenous peoples and nations seeking

986
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 1: new ways of life, seeking freedom from the Latin America

987
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:03,280
Speaker 1: and the quintessential American oliga called nation state. Brutish is

988
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 1: of course rooted in clunialism and new liberalism, and so

989
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:13,480
Speaker 1: we are seeing through renvivere within renvie outside of and review.

990
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:20,160
Speaker 1: Adjacent to ren review um utopias in the making, the imagination,

991
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 1: the imagining of utopias of the Andes and of the

992
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:28,080
Speaker 1: Amazon that are shaping discourses, shaping political projects, that are

993
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 1: shaping social and cultural and economic practice. The good life

994
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 1: been revere is not something that is unique to Latin America.

995
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 1: Of course, it has been practiced in many different epochs

996
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 1: and regions of this Earth. It's been known by many

997
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 1: different names. The concept has been known by many different names.

998
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:49,560
Speaker 1: In Ecuador, it's known as suma um, which is a

999
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:53,520
Speaker 1: Quechua wording for a fullness of life and community together

1000
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:57,360
Speaker 1: to the persons in nature and believia The iyemarra concept

1001
01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 1: for it is called suma kamana in the Mapuche in Chile,

1002
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:04,480
Speaker 1: and the Guarani in Paraguay, and the Kuda and Panama,

1003
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 1: and the chu Aqua and Ecuadorian Amazon, the Maya and

1004
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 1: Guatemala and Chiapas Mexico, and of course the African to

1005
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 1: Ubuntu and the Indian concept of saraje. They are all

1006
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 1: these sorts of threads of what a good life, good

1007
01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 1: life and community, radical ecological democracy and community. All of

1008
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:32,040
Speaker 1: these sort of concepts sort of threaded within developing diffront

1009
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 1: in different forms in different contexts. However, UM the concept

1010
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:41,920
Speaker 1: has also been adopted in some sense by certain states,

1011
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 1: most notably Bolivia and Ecuador. Recently, Bolivia, you know, rewrote

1012
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 1: its constitution um establishing itself as a flury national state,

1013
01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:01,800
Speaker 1: and they've taken it to what they quality the orban um.

1014
01:04:02,120 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 1: They're trying to basically propose economic model that accommodates various

1015
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 1: diverse cultural origins. In Ecuador, UM that conceptual freework is

1016
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:16,880
Speaker 1: a bit different. They take one vera and they use

1017
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:19,160
Speaker 1: it as a sort of described as a set of rights,

1018
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:24,440
Speaker 1: rights to shelter, to health, to education, to foods, the environment.

1019
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:28,520
Speaker 1: So it's less of an ethical principle, more of a

1020
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:32,880
Speaker 1: complex set of rights that are also found in Western

1021
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:38,800
Speaker 1: traditions but also include, uh, you know, the the right

1022
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 1: to freedom, participation, communities, to protection, and to nature. Part

1023
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:46,800
Speaker 1: of that recognition of the right to nature and the

1024
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:50,080
Speaker 1: fundamental rights of water has led to the banning of

1025
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:54,400
Speaker 1: any form of privatization of water um, and also the

1026
01:04:54,520 --> 01:05:03,520
Speaker 1: promotion of leaving crude oil in Ecuadorian Amazon blew the ground. Um. However,

1027
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:05,600
Speaker 1: I feel like I need to point out that I

1028
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:09,840
Speaker 1: don't believe the state is compatible with the essence of

1029
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 1: when vere with the practice of when vere um, and

1030
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:19,680
Speaker 1: so the use of those concepts and state propaganda uh

1031
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 1: in state rebranding efforts unnecessarily encouraging to me, doesn't necessarily

1032
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:27,280
Speaker 1: make such states the power corn so they would paint

1033
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:30,800
Speaker 1: themselves to be because to me, when vie can only

1034
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:34,160
Speaker 1: really be grassroots concepts. So I think we must be

1035
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:38,320
Speaker 1: careful of fall into that trap of accepting uh you know,

1036
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:45,800
Speaker 1: state propaganda on the good life um, you know, compromising

1037
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:48,840
Speaker 1: the concept and allowing it to be co opted or

1038
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:53,480
Speaker 1: water down. As I previously noted, I think there's a

1039
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:57,880
Speaker 1: major overlap between concept of de growth and the idea

1040
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:00,280
Speaker 1: of when Revere and both agree that one of the

1041
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:04,880
Speaker 1: fundamental problems is, you know, this idea, this constant commercialization

1042
01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:09,400
Speaker 1: of societal fabric and of nature of criticism of capitalism,

1043
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:13,200
Speaker 1: this criticism of the way that progress felt an economic

1044
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:17,760
Speaker 1: growth understood and implemented um. And so they almost they

1045
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:19,840
Speaker 1: sort of complement each other, right, because I think a

1046
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 1: criticism people who have of the growth is that as

1047
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:25,560
Speaker 1: this destructive thing, as it's negative thing, as negative freemen.

1048
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:27,880
Speaker 1: And so in a sense, when Vere and the growth

1049
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:32,000
Speaker 1: can sort of be coupled, the growth as the couldn't

1050
01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:36,600
Speaker 1: quote missile wood destructive. Well, Gwen Vivere is you know,

1051
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:42,280
Speaker 1: presenting a constructive alternative. As you know, we attempt to progress,

1052
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:47,640
Speaker 1: to move away from capitalism, transitions and new systems. There's

1053
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:49,120
Speaker 1: a lot to learn with have a lot we can

1054
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:52,200
Speaker 1: learn from various non capitalist practices around the world. And

1055
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:56,400
Speaker 1: I think gen vivie um is a concept that really

1056
01:06:56,480 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 1: tries to look at the way is a way of

1057
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:03,360
Speaker 1: harmoniously quite sisted as humans in our environment Um and

1058
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:05,400
Speaker 1: the way is that you know, a good life can

1059
01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:12,440
Speaker 1: be combined with the growth efforts. There's also a measure

1060
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:25,040
Speaker 1: of fluidity present in green vivere Um that seeks balance socially, ecologically, politically, economically.

1061
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:32,160
Speaker 1: UM encompasses and encompasses within that balance people, plans, and animals.

1062
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:39,360
Speaker 1: There's not separate nature from society as found in classical

1063
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:44,680
Speaker 1: Western dualism, and that sort of perspective is necessary if

1064
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:47,520
Speaker 1: we were to move beyond the exploitation of nature for

1065
01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:50,760
Speaker 1: the propos of accumulating capital cell that has really placed

1066
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:53,440
Speaker 1: us in this mess and even in that and recognized

1067
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:55,520
Speaker 1: and that we need to move beyond exploitation of nature

1068
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:58,880
Speaker 1: baked into that because we are part of nature. It's

1069
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:02,600
Speaker 1: a recognition that we need to stuff exploiting humans. They

1070
01:08:02,640 --> 01:08:07,120
Speaker 1: need to recognize human beings as part of a community,

1071
01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:10,400
Speaker 1: that we are not just as my individuals, that we

1072
01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:13,120
Speaker 1: are in communities, that we must be part of community

1073
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:16,920
Speaker 1: used that our community is the people within them and

1074
01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:23,559
Speaker 1: the lands we are part of must cooperate in harmony.

1075
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:26,800
Speaker 1: I think there's a challenge to one review. Of course

1076
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:29,360
Speaker 1: what the video is not restricted to the countryside, but

1077
01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 1: it did it did originate there. UM. I think the

1078
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:35,880
Speaker 1: challenge one review is to confront today's urban spaces where

1079
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:40,040
Speaker 1: much of humanity's population lives UM, to find ways to

1080
01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:45,639
Speaker 1: deal with environment respectively and solidarity in an urban setting,

1081
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:49,559
Speaker 1: to find to conceptualize a good life for and in cities.

1082
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:52,680
Speaker 1: We can't exactly expect everybody to move to the countryside,

1083
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:57,080
Speaker 1: nor should everybody, UM, and so we need to find

1084
01:08:57,120 --> 01:09:03,520
Speaker 1: ways that city life, urban I life UM can be reconstructed.

1085
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:07,479
Speaker 1: And so one potential sort of way that that has

1086
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:12,920
Speaker 1: manifested is through the Transition Towns movement, which you can

1087
01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:15,559
Speaker 1: look more and to have something that interests you where

1088
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:19,559
Speaker 1: people are basically attempting to taking truth of their communities

1089
01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:22,519
Speaker 1: and to survive the challenge that is climate change and

1090
01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:27,920
Speaker 1: to create you know, sustainable economies and ecologies. Wherefore they

1091
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:32,120
Speaker 1: find themselves movements. It can be found in many different countries.

1092
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:34,719
Speaker 1: You know, you might even find it in your area

1093
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:37,559
Speaker 1: and your country. Look it up, UM, and it has

1094
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:39,920
Speaker 1: a lot in common with the concept of Ween Revere.

1095
01:09:40,360 --> 01:09:42,200
Speaker 1: Like I said, like I feel that they're selling different

1096
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:46,000
Speaker 1: movements and ideas and philosophies, you know, sort of with

1097
01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:50,080
Speaker 1: the same ideas that seemed to be feel like they're

1098
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:55,519
Speaker 1: on the rise. Ultimately, I believe wend Revere is highly

1099
01:09:56,600 --> 01:10:01,200
Speaker 1: h subversive. I believe it looks not to return to

1100
01:10:01,280 --> 01:10:05,160
Speaker 1: the past or to you know, get caught up in

1101
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:09,720
Speaker 1: any kind of strict rules or positions. It seeks a

1102
01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:12,800
Speaker 1: good life. It seeks to oppose cleanism and its consequences,

1103
01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:17,040
Speaker 1: to encourage new, more sustainable ways of living drawn from

1104
01:10:17,120 --> 01:10:23,759
Speaker 1: old examples and models, and to really create horizontal society,

1105
01:10:24,240 --> 01:10:28,479
Speaker 1: a cooperative society, to develop self management instead of new

1106
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 1: forms of top down governance. UM the one that rejects

1107
01:10:33,080 --> 01:10:35,519
Speaker 1: both the market and the state as solutions to our

1108
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:39,880
Speaker 1: issues and looks to ourselves. One that looks one that

1109
01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:42,720
Speaker 1: rejects the markets in the state, has potential solutions, and

1110
01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:48,879
Speaker 1: looks to ourselves. The idea of development is an almost

1111
01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:54,479
Speaker 1: a zombie category, as some writers have described it. It's

1112
01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:59,080
Speaker 1: supposed to be dead and yet it lives. And so

1113
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:04,840
Speaker 1: gwen Vivere provides an opportunity to move away from development

1114
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:11,599
Speaker 1: and look towards when it recognizes that all may never

1115
01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:16,400
Speaker 1: create a perfect life, we can create a good life.

1116
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:20,120
Speaker 1: That's it thanks here, and that's really interesting. I like

1117
01:11:20,240 --> 01:11:24,600
Speaker 1: that you can find me on YouTube at Andrewidsum on

1118
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:27,960
Speaker 1: to dot com slash and is called saying Drew, and

1119
01:11:28,680 --> 01:11:30,679
Speaker 1: if you're so inclined, you can support me on picture

1120
01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:34,920
Speaker 1: dot com slash saying Drew. This has been Andrew at

1121
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:53,320
Speaker 1: happen here with James signing off, Hello and welcome to

1122
01:11:53,640 --> 01:11:57,560
Speaker 1: it could happen here. This is Sharne and today I

1123
01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:00,640
Speaker 1: will be talking to you about the series of devastating

1124
01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:03,559
Speaker 1: earthquakes that have happened in Turkey and Syria this week.

1125
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:08,200
Speaker 1: I am recording this the afternoon of Tuesday, February seven.

1126
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:12,320
Speaker 1: I am giving you that disclaimer because the numbers keep

1127
01:12:12,439 --> 01:12:16,200
Speaker 1: changing as far as the casualties and the death toll goes.

1128
01:12:17,520 --> 01:12:19,320
Speaker 1: So if the numbers are different by the time this

1129
01:12:19,439 --> 01:12:23,560
Speaker 1: comes out, which they probably will be, that is why. Unfortunately,

1130
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:28,559
Speaker 1: that is the nature of disasters like this. So there's

1131
01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:31,040
Speaker 1: nothing much that we can do. But let's talk about

1132
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:35,560
Speaker 1: the earthquakes themselves. First. The initial earthquake was a magnitude

1133
01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:38,519
Speaker 1: of seven point eight and it happened in southeastern Turkey

1134
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:41,439
Speaker 1: early on Monday morning their local time, and it was

1135
01:12:41,479 --> 01:12:45,479
Speaker 1: followed by magnitude seven point five earthquake only nine hours later.

1136
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:51,519
Speaker 1: Amidst several aftershocks. All aftershocks are individual earthquakes, but as

1137
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:54,000
Speaker 1: long as they are not stronger than the original quake,

1138
01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:58,080
Speaker 1: they are considered after shocks. But the seven point five

1139
01:12:58,160 --> 01:13:01,280
Speaker 1: magnitude tremor that happened after the seven point eight one

1140
01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:04,559
Speaker 1: only point three of a difference. It was an unusually

1141
01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:10,840
Speaker 1: strong aftershock. According to seismologists, aftershocks are typically about one

1142
01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:14,760
Speaker 1: point to magnitude units lower than the original earthquake, so

1143
01:13:15,040 --> 01:13:18,160
Speaker 1: if there was a magnitude eight earthquake, the aftershock would

1144
01:13:18,200 --> 01:13:21,160
Speaker 1: be in magnitude seven. So this was all a very rare,

1145
01:13:21,360 --> 01:13:26,120
Speaker 1: disastrous occurrence. The second earthquake was a shock notable all

1146
01:13:26,240 --> 01:13:28,640
Speaker 1: on its own, as well as in relation to the

1147
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:33,120
Speaker 1: primary earthquake. As of Tuesday morning, according to the United

1148
01:13:33,200 --> 01:13:37,080
Speaker 1: States Geological Survey, at least one and twenty five aftershocks

1149
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:40,640
Speaker 1: measuring four point zero or greater have occurred since the

1150
01:13:40,720 --> 01:13:44,439
Speaker 1: initial seven point eight one. The frequency in magnitude of

1151
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:48,040
Speaker 1: the aftershocks are decreasing, as is expected as we get

1152
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:51,200
Speaker 1: further out from the time of the original earthquake. However,

1153
01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:55,240
Speaker 1: five point zero and six point zero aftershocks are still possible,

1154
01:13:55,680 --> 01:13:58,280
Speaker 1: and they bring a risk of additional damage to structures

1155
01:13:58,320 --> 01:14:02,160
Speaker 1: that are compromised from the original earthquake. This brings a

1156
01:14:02,280 --> 01:14:06,960
Speaker 1: continued threat to rescue teams and survivors. The aftershocks stretched

1157
01:14:07,040 --> 01:14:09,760
Speaker 1: for more than four d kilometers or about two fifty

1158
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:12,960
Speaker 1: miles along the fault zone that ruptured in southern Turkey.

1159
01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:16,479
Speaker 1: It stretches from the Mediterranean Sea off the northern coast

1160
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:21,479
Speaker 1: of Syria up to the province of Malatia. The initial

1161
01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:24,760
Speaker 1: tremor was centered about twenty miles from a major city

1162
01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:28,920
Speaker 1: and provincial capital, Gauziantep and seismologists said that this first

1163
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:32,280
Speaker 1: earthquake was one of the largest ever recorded in Turkey's history.

1164
01:14:33,439 --> 01:14:36,439
Speaker 1: It was also the region's strongest earthquake. In nearly a

1165
01:14:36,560 --> 01:14:41,479
Speaker 1: century nine, an earthquake of the same magnitude killed thirty

1166
01:14:41,600 --> 01:14:46,120
Speaker 1: thousand people. Earthquakes of this magnitude are rare, with fewer

1167
01:14:46,200 --> 01:14:49,479
Speaker 1: than five occurring each year on average anywhere in the world.

1168
01:14:50,160 --> 01:14:53,320
Speaker 1: Seven earthquakes with magnitude seven point zero or greater have

1169
01:14:53,479 --> 01:14:56,600
Speaker 1: struck Turkey in the past twenty five years, but the

1170
01:14:56,680 --> 01:15:00,479
Speaker 1: one that occurred on Monday it's the most powerful. The

1171
01:15:00,520 --> 01:15:04,799
Speaker 1: effects were also felt in the neighboring countries of Cyprus, Lebanon, Israel,

1172
01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:07,639
Speaker 1: and Egypt, to name a few. But there's a reason

1173
01:15:07,680 --> 01:15:11,160
Speaker 1: why earthquakes are so frequent in Turkey. Turkey sits on

1174
01:15:11,320 --> 01:15:15,360
Speaker 1: fault lines, and these earthquakes in the region have caused

1175
01:15:15,479 --> 01:15:19,320
Speaker 1: deadly landslides in the past. Turkey is situated on two

1176
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:23,800
Speaker 1: massive tectonic plates, the Arabian and the Eurasian, and these

1177
01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:28,599
Speaker 1: meat underneath Turkey's southeastern provinces. Along this fault line, about

1178
01:15:28,720 --> 01:15:31,799
Speaker 1: hundred miles from one side or the other, the earth slipped.

1179
01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:36,360
Speaker 1: Seismologists refer to this event as a strike slip, where

1180
01:15:36,400 --> 01:15:38,599
Speaker 1: the plates are touching and all of a sudden they

1181
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 1: slide sideways. In a strike slip, the plates are moving

1182
01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:46,960
Speaker 1: horizontally rather than vertically. This matters because the buildings don't

1183
01:15:47,040 --> 01:15:50,000
Speaker 1: want to go back and forth, and then the secondary

1184
01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:53,679
Speaker 1: waves begin to go back and forth as well. Because

1185
01:15:53,720 --> 01:15:56,960
Speaker 1: of the nature of this seismic event, the aftershocks could

1186
01:15:57,080 --> 01:16:00,960
Speaker 1: last for weeks and months. I have had to update

1187
01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:05,800
Speaker 1: the death toll many many times in preparing this episode.

1188
01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:09,840
Speaker 1: I am probably going to have to update it many

1189
01:16:09,960 --> 01:16:14,120
Speaker 1: many more times before this comes out, but as of now,

1190
01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:17,960
Speaker 1: when I am recording this, the evening of Tuesday, February seven,

1191
01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:22,360
Speaker 1: the death toll is over seven thousand and nine hundred

1192
01:16:22,640 --> 01:16:27,000
Speaker 1: deaths in Turkey and Syria combined, and it's expected to

1193
01:16:27,240 --> 01:16:30,760
Speaker 1: rise significantly more in Syria as these days go by.

1194
01:16:32,080 --> 01:16:35,280
Speaker 1: The exact number that is being reported is seven thousand,

1195
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:39,280
Speaker 1: nine hundred and twenty six people. The Syrian Civil Defense

1196
01:16:39,439 --> 01:16:42,040
Speaker 1: a k a. The White Helmets said that the number

1197
01:16:42,080 --> 01:16:45,760
Speaker 1: of fatalities and rebel held areas in northwest Syria rose

1198
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:48,200
Speaker 1: to a thousand, two hundred and twenty and the number

1199
01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:51,560
Speaker 1: of injured people rose to two thousand, six hundred, and

1200
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:54,880
Speaker 1: these figures are expected to rise significantly due to the

1201
01:16:54,960 --> 01:16:58,960
Speaker 1: presence of hundreds of families under the rubble. The White

1202
01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:02,720
Speaker 1: Helmets said quote, our teams continue search and rescue operations

1203
01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:06,200
Speaker 1: in difficult circumstances, and they described a tally of more

1204
01:17:06,280 --> 01:17:09,120
Speaker 1: than four hundred collapsed buildings and more than one thousand,

1205
01:17:09,200 --> 01:17:12,479
Speaker 1: three hundred partially collapsed buildings and thousands of others that

1206
01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:16,559
Speaker 1: were damaged. Additionally, at least eight hundred and twelve deaths

1207
01:17:16,640 --> 01:17:20,879
Speaker 1: have been confirmed in government controlled parts of Syria. In Turkey,

1208
01:17:21,080 --> 01:17:23,719
Speaker 1: at least five thousand, eight hundred and ninety four people

1209
01:17:23,760 --> 01:17:26,599
Speaker 1: are dead and thirty four thousand, eight hundred and ten

1210
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:30,839
Speaker 1: are injured, and this number is only going to continue

1211
01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:35,280
Speaker 1: to rise. I don't know when it will stop. Maybe

1212
01:17:35,320 --> 01:17:38,840
Speaker 1: a week from now, maybe a month. I don't know

1213
01:17:38,880 --> 01:17:41,560
Speaker 1: how many more people will be unaccounted for and not

1214
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:45,599
Speaker 1: reported about. But this is what we have for now.

1215
01:17:46,439 --> 01:17:51,160
Speaker 1: You've probably seen pictures or videos of the devastation that

1216
01:17:51,320 --> 01:17:54,280
Speaker 1: is happening. In all the destruction. There have been really

1217
01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:57,880
Speaker 1: disturbing images of the ground literally just opening up in

1218
01:17:58,040 --> 01:18:01,400
Speaker 1: two and as if you can see the core of

1219
01:18:01,479 --> 01:18:05,920
Speaker 1: the earth, and other videos show the collapsed buildings and

1220
01:18:06,280 --> 01:18:10,160
Speaker 1: the rubble that rescuers are trying to dig underneath to

1221
01:18:10,240 --> 01:18:14,479
Speaker 1: find survivors. This is one story out of many, but

1222
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:18,400
Speaker 1: a newborn baby was reportedly rescued from the rubble in Syria,

1223
01:18:18,720 --> 01:18:21,719
Speaker 1: and there is a video of this. A baby girl

1224
01:18:22,160 --> 01:18:25,599
Speaker 1: was rescued from the rubble of her home. Her umbilical

1225
01:18:25,680 --> 01:18:28,200
Speaker 1: cord was still attached to her mother when she was found,

1226
01:18:29,120 --> 01:18:32,080
Speaker 1: and her mother is believed to have died after giving birth.

1227
01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:35,519
Speaker 1: One of the men that found her said, we heard

1228
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:38,679
Speaker 1: a voice while we were digging. We cleared the dust

1229
01:18:38,800 --> 01:18:41,519
Speaker 1: and found the baby with the umbilical cord intact, so

1230
01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:43,799
Speaker 1: we cut it and my cousin took her to the hospital.

1231
01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:48,280
Speaker 1: The girl is receiving treatment at a children's hospital and

1232
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:52,440
Speaker 1: as of now, she is stable, but arrived with bruises, lacerations,

1233
01:18:52,479 --> 01:18:56,439
Speaker 1: and hypothermia, and she's the sole survivor of her immediate family.

1234
01:18:56,960 --> 01:18:59,400
Speaker 1: They lived in a five story apartment building that was

1235
01:18:59,520 --> 01:19:03,080
Speaker 1: leveled by the quake. And again, this is one example

1236
01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:06,920
Speaker 1: of the stories of thousands of people. And I think

1237
01:19:07,040 --> 01:19:10,479
Speaker 1: what's important to remember is that even after someone is rescued,

1238
01:19:11,080 --> 01:19:15,200
Speaker 1: they're not exactly home free. They can have many injuries

1239
01:19:15,479 --> 01:19:18,120
Speaker 1: or hypothermia because it's very cold over there right now,

1240
01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:22,240
Speaker 1: and their recovery is going to be brutal. And I

1241
01:19:22,320 --> 01:19:23,880
Speaker 1: feel like that's a good thing to keep in mind

1242
01:19:23,960 --> 01:19:27,240
Speaker 1: when you hear the word rescue, because the trauma doesn't

1243
01:19:27,240 --> 01:19:31,479
Speaker 1: stop there. Almost six thousand buildings have been destroyed by

1244
01:19:31,520 --> 01:19:36,160
Speaker 1: this earthquake, and this includes residential buildings, hospitals, schools, and

1245
01:19:36,240 --> 01:19:39,559
Speaker 1: the damage is even more severe in northwestern Syria because

1246
01:19:39,840 --> 01:19:42,400
Speaker 1: it had been in the process of attempting to reconstruct

1247
01:19:42,439 --> 01:19:47,760
Speaker 1: itself since the Syrian War started in Thankfully, members of

1248
01:19:47,800 --> 01:19:51,280
Speaker 1: the international community have stepped up to coordinate relief efforts

1249
01:19:51,320 --> 01:19:56,120
Speaker 1: to Turkey and Syria after the powerful earthquakes. However, sending

1250
01:19:56,200 --> 01:19:59,040
Speaker 1: aid to Syria is going to be difficult because there's

1251
01:19:59,120 --> 01:20:01,080
Speaker 1: no central guf are meant to take care of the

1252
01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:06,479
Speaker 1: multisectorial response. The Turkish government said quote, we do not

1253
01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:08,760
Speaker 1: know where the number of dead and injured can go.

1254
01:20:09,920 --> 01:20:13,720
Speaker 1: In Syria, rescue workers used headlamps and floodlights to work

1255
01:20:13,800 --> 01:20:17,600
Speaker 1: throughout the night. Many Syrian war refugees are also in

1256
01:20:17,640 --> 01:20:21,080
Speaker 1: the quick stricken area of Turkey. Turkey has taken in

1257
01:20:21,320 --> 01:20:25,639
Speaker 1: three point six million Syrian refugees, more than any other country,

1258
01:20:26,240 --> 01:20:28,879
Speaker 1: and this is according to the u N Refugee Agency,

1259
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:32,360
Speaker 1: which runs one of its largest operations in Gaussian Tepe,

1260
01:20:32,600 --> 01:20:36,160
Speaker 1: where the first earthquake happened and again. Videos shared on

1261
01:20:36,280 --> 01:20:38,960
Speaker 1: social media from Turkey and across the border in Syria

1262
01:20:39,120 --> 01:20:43,080
Speaker 1: have showed destroyed buildings and rescue crews searching through piles

1263
01:20:43,160 --> 01:20:46,479
Speaker 1: of rebel for survivors. Some people fled their homes in

1264
01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:49,639
Speaker 1: the rain and took shelter in their cars, and governments

1265
01:20:49,680 --> 01:20:54,080
Speaker 1: around the world quickly responded to Turkey's request for international assistance,

1266
01:20:54,840 --> 01:20:57,360
Speaker 1: many of them deploying rescue teams and offers of aid,

1267
01:20:57,479 --> 01:21:01,760
Speaker 1: which I will get into in a bit. The World

1268
01:21:01,840 --> 01:21:05,400
Speaker 1: Health Organization warned that the number of casualties are likely

1269
01:21:05,479 --> 01:21:09,280
Speaker 1: to increase as much as eight times as rescuers are

1270
01:21:09,320 --> 01:21:13,920
Speaker 1: finding more victims in the rubble. Rescuers have been combing

1271
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:17,160
Speaker 1: through mountains of rubble and freezing and snowy conditions to

1272
01:21:17,240 --> 01:21:20,840
Speaker 1: find survivors, and these freezing conditions will leave many people

1273
01:21:20,920 --> 01:21:26,160
Speaker 1: without shelter, adding to the dangers. It is freezing over there,

1274
01:21:27,040 --> 01:21:30,599
Speaker 1: and that obviously only makes things more difficult and more

1275
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:36,000
Speaker 1: painful and more complicated. And we always see the same

1276
01:21:36,120 --> 01:21:39,799
Speaker 1: thing with earthquakes unfortunately, which is that the initial reports

1277
01:21:39,880 --> 01:21:41,840
Speaker 1: of the numbers of people who have died or have

1278
01:21:41,960 --> 01:21:45,879
Speaker 1: been injured will increase quite significantly in the week that follows.

1279
01:21:47,320 --> 01:21:50,400
Speaker 1: The situation on the ground seems to be more disastrous

1280
01:21:50,479 --> 01:21:53,320
Speaker 1: in Syria, and this is according to the country director

1281
01:21:53,400 --> 01:21:57,000
Speaker 1: in Ghazian Tep for the Syrian American Medical Society Foundation.

1282
01:21:58,080 --> 01:22:01,759
Speaker 1: He said it's a disaster stiss situation in both Turkey

1283
01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:06,080
Speaker 1: and Syria, although Syria is more disastrous. Over a decade

1284
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:09,839
Speaker 1: of conflict in Northern Syria has fostered a poor economic situation,

1285
01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:12,759
Speaker 1: to say the least, making it very difficult to respond

1286
01:22:12,800 --> 01:22:16,639
Speaker 1: to the current crisis. In contrast, the situation in Turkey

1287
01:22:16,760 --> 01:22:21,120
Speaker 1: is coordinated through a very well settled government and Northern

1288
01:22:21,200 --> 01:22:24,640
Speaker 1: Syria unfortunately has no government that gives a shit about it.

1289
01:22:25,160 --> 01:22:28,360
Speaker 1: In Northern Syria, most of the services and help are

1290
01:22:28,400 --> 01:22:30,840
Speaker 1: provided by n g o s and this is due

1291
01:22:30,920 --> 01:22:34,080
Speaker 1: to a long term lack of investments in early recovery

1292
01:22:34,120 --> 01:22:37,759
Speaker 1: and infrastructure. One of these groups again is the White Helmets.

1293
01:22:37,960 --> 01:22:41,519
Speaker 1: They were one of the main saviors or helpers ever

1294
01:22:41,640 --> 01:22:44,160
Speaker 1: since the Syrians Civil war started in eleven They have

1295
01:22:44,280 --> 01:22:46,400
Speaker 1: been on the ground helping and they are made up

1296
01:22:46,439 --> 01:22:49,559
Speaker 1: of Syrian volunteers. And I think that's important to keep

1297
01:22:49,600 --> 01:22:53,280
Speaker 1: in mind because many Syrians have relied on each other

1298
01:22:53,479 --> 01:22:55,920
Speaker 1: and each other alone because they didn't receive help in

1299
01:22:56,000 --> 01:22:58,840
Speaker 1: the past. And I'm going to get into later how

1300
01:22:58,960 --> 01:23:03,200
Speaker 1: much the country's civil war has made things exponentially worse.

1301
01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:08,000
Speaker 1: Several parts in northwestern Syria, including the city of Islab,

1302
01:23:08,120 --> 01:23:12,759
Speaker 1: are still controlled by anti government rebels. This representative added

1303
01:23:12,960 --> 01:23:16,439
Speaker 1: that they evacuated to maturity hospitals because of the physical

1304
01:23:16,560 --> 01:23:20,080
Speaker 1: impact of the earthquake on the infrastructure and so the

1305
01:23:20,160 --> 01:23:23,479
Speaker 1: question is where are these people going to go. There's

1306
01:23:23,960 --> 01:23:27,360
Speaker 1: no shelter, it is freezing, and there's not enough aid

1307
01:23:27,560 --> 01:23:31,519
Speaker 1: to go around. And I'm hoping the countries that have

1308
01:23:31,600 --> 01:23:34,040
Speaker 1: said they will help are in the process of actually

1309
01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:36,400
Speaker 1: doing so, and I'm going to get into some of

1310
01:23:36,479 --> 01:23:40,200
Speaker 1: them in a moment, because I'm grateful that there's help

1311
01:23:40,280 --> 01:23:43,599
Speaker 1: coming from somewhere. And amongst all this, there have been

1312
01:23:43,680 --> 01:23:47,840
Speaker 1: calls to ease the Syrian border restrictions and controls for

1313
01:23:48,080 --> 01:23:51,679
Speaker 1: countries to offer their aid. And again, the rebel held

1314
01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:54,559
Speaker 1: on clave in northwest Syria, across the border from Turkey,

1315
01:23:55,320 --> 01:23:57,360
Speaker 1: is among the areas that have been hit the worst

1316
01:23:57,439 --> 01:24:02,120
Speaker 1: by this disaster. International pledges, as I said, of emergency

1317
01:24:02,200 --> 01:24:04,840
Speaker 1: aid have poured in for Turkey and Syria, leading to

1318
01:24:04,960 --> 01:24:07,600
Speaker 1: calls for the international community to relax some of the

1319
01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:13,560
Speaker 1: political restrictions on aid entering northwest Syria. The Turkish President Aragon,

1320
01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:16,720
Speaker 1: who was facing an election only a few months, said

1321
01:24:16,760 --> 01:24:19,160
Speaker 1: the offers of aid to Turkey had come from forty

1322
01:24:19,240 --> 01:24:23,040
Speaker 1: five countries, ranging from Kuwait to Israel, Russia and the UK.

1323
01:24:23,880 --> 01:24:27,080
Speaker 1: Syria said it had received offers of help from China, Russia,

1324
01:24:27,240 --> 01:24:31,280
Speaker 1: Lebanon Algeria and the United Arab Immirance. Aid from around

1325
01:24:31,320 --> 01:24:35,439
Speaker 1: the world is thankfully heading towards Turkey and Syria, and

1326
01:24:35,680 --> 01:24:40,600
Speaker 1: some seventy countries and fourteen international organizations have offered their assistance.

1327
01:24:41,920 --> 01:24:46,320
Speaker 1: Here's a roundup of some of the latest pledges. There

1328
01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:49,920
Speaker 1: is a Hungarian rescue team of fifty people, including five

1329
01:24:50,000 --> 01:24:53,800
Speaker 1: military doctors and to search dogs. South Korea plans to

1330
01:24:53,880 --> 01:24:57,479
Speaker 1: offer humanitarian aid worth five million to Turkey and sent

1331
01:24:57,600 --> 01:25:00,559
Speaker 1: about a hundred and ten disaster relief workers a military

1332
01:25:00,680 --> 01:25:04,720
Speaker 1: personnel to support its search and rescue work. You may

1333
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:07,519
Speaker 1: notice that I'm only saying they're sending aid to Turkey

1334
01:25:07,560 --> 01:25:09,280
Speaker 1: and a couple of these, and I will get into

1335
01:25:09,960 --> 01:25:14,360
Speaker 1: why in a little bit, But to continue, the Palestinian

1336
01:25:14,400 --> 01:25:18,920
Speaker 1: International Corporation Agency will deploy seventy experts to the quake

1337
01:25:19,160 --> 01:25:22,960
Speaker 1: later this week, sending two crews comprised of the Civil Defense,

1338
01:25:23,320 --> 01:25:26,200
Speaker 1: Ministry of Health and the Palestinian Red Cross, as well

1339
01:25:26,240 --> 01:25:29,640
Speaker 1: as doctors and engineers. There are also teams from the

1340
01:25:29,680 --> 01:25:33,400
Speaker 1: Palestinian Red Crescent and they are carrying out earthquake rescue

1341
01:25:33,400 --> 01:25:36,920
Speaker 1: and relief operations in the Palestinian refugee camps and the

1342
01:25:36,960 --> 01:25:42,240
Speaker 1: surrounding areas in Syria. At least three Palestinian refugee camps

1343
01:25:42,280 --> 01:25:46,200
Speaker 1: in Syria were struck by the earthquake. Pakistan deployed two

1344
01:25:46,280 --> 01:25:50,160
Speaker 1: contingents of emergency services to Turkey. China said it will

1345
01:25:50,240 --> 01:25:53,320
Speaker 1: send about five point nine million dollars worth of aid

1346
01:25:53,360 --> 01:25:57,000
Speaker 1: to Turkey, while also coordinating with Syria for emergency supplies

1347
01:25:57,080 --> 01:26:01,559
Speaker 1: and accelerating ongoing food aid projects. Two Israeli aid groups

1348
01:26:01,680 --> 01:26:04,080
Speaker 1: chartered a special flight to Gauzi and tep on Tuesday

1349
01:26:04,200 --> 01:26:08,639
Speaker 1: to bring personnel and equipment to victims. Germany's Federal Agency

1350
01:26:08,720 --> 01:26:11,400
Speaker 1: for Technical Relief is sending a team of fifty recovery

1351
01:26:11,479 --> 01:26:14,920
Speaker 1: experts to Turkey. The Dalai Lama committed to sending rescue

1352
01:26:14,920 --> 01:26:18,920
Speaker 1: and relief efforts early today, and Taiwan increased its donation

1353
01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:22,080
Speaker 1: to Turkey from two hundred thousand to two million dollars

1354
01:26:22,680 --> 01:26:25,679
Speaker 1: and it dispatched about a hundred and thirty rescue teams.

1355
01:26:26,400 --> 01:26:30,640
Speaker 1: Indonesia also supplied aid for Turkey. The Vice President of

1356
01:26:30,680 --> 01:26:34,639
Speaker 1: Indonesia highlighted the urgency of dispatching humanitarian aid to Turkey

1357
01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:38,000
Speaker 1: to return the support granted by the country to Indonesia

1358
01:26:38,439 --> 01:26:41,639
Speaker 1: during their times of need over natural disasters in the past.

1359
01:26:42,720 --> 01:26:47,120
Speaker 1: Canada also pledged seven point five million dollars to earthquake relief.

1360
01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:50,760
Speaker 1: Egypt offered relief assistance to Syria in the wake of

1361
01:26:50,840 --> 01:26:55,599
Speaker 1: this earthquake. Ukraine will send eighty seven emergency staff workers

1362
01:26:55,680 --> 01:26:58,920
Speaker 1: to Turkey to assist with the relief efforts. And not

1363
01:26:59,120 --> 01:27:03,120
Speaker 1: just countries, but also companies and nonprofits have offered their

1364
01:27:03,160 --> 01:27:06,760
Speaker 1: help this week. For example, Amazon announced that it will

1365
01:27:06,800 --> 01:27:10,280
Speaker 1: help the victims of the Turkey earthquake by donating food, medicine,

1366
01:27:10,320 --> 01:27:15,760
Speaker 1: and equipment from its Istanbul warehouse. Amazon has about two

1367
01:27:15,880 --> 01:27:19,120
Speaker 1: thousand employees in Turkey, and in a statement on Monday,

1368
01:27:19,240 --> 01:27:22,720
Speaker 1: it said that it activated its quote disaster relief capabilities

1369
01:27:23,160 --> 01:27:27,280
Speaker 1: and was preparing to donate relief items including blankets, tense food,

1370
01:27:27,479 --> 01:27:31,920
Speaker 1: baby food, and medicines. Even here in the US, the

1371
01:27:32,120 --> 01:27:35,040
Speaker 1: Virginia Task Force one is sending a crew of seventy

1372
01:27:35,080 --> 01:27:38,519
Speaker 1: nine members and six dogs to Turkey, and there are

1373
01:27:38,560 --> 01:27:41,479
Speaker 1: seventy eight members of the l A County Fire Department

1374
01:27:41,760 --> 01:27:45,679
Speaker 1: who left Monday evening to Turkey. And then there's Greece,

1375
01:27:45,760 --> 01:27:48,560
Speaker 1: who set aside tensions with Turkey to send aid but

1376
01:27:48,720 --> 01:27:52,960
Speaker 1: helping Syria. They said is more complicated. Despite its tensions

1377
01:27:53,000 --> 01:27:56,200
Speaker 1: with Turkey. Greece was among the countries that have dispatched

1378
01:27:56,280 --> 01:28:00,960
Speaker 1: help to the country, but conflict torn northwest Syria makes

1379
01:28:01,000 --> 01:28:04,719
Speaker 1: the same efforts more complicated, the Prime Minister said. Grace

1380
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:07,560
Speaker 1: and Turkey, he said, are quote neighbors who need to

1381
01:28:07,640 --> 01:28:10,360
Speaker 1: help each other through difficult times. This is not the

1382
01:28:10,439 --> 01:28:13,360
Speaker 1: first time earthquakes have struck our countries. This is a

1383
01:28:13,479 --> 01:28:16,160
Speaker 1: time to temporarily set aside er differences and try to

1384
01:28:16,240 --> 01:28:20,560
Speaker 1: address what is a very, very urgent situation. He continued

1385
01:28:20,640 --> 01:28:24,360
Speaker 1: to explain that in Syria, however, there is no official

1386
01:28:24,520 --> 01:28:27,479
Speaker 1: person or official from the government to have a dialogue with,

1387
01:28:28,000 --> 01:28:30,280
Speaker 1: and no assurance that aid will make it to the

1388
01:28:30,400 --> 01:28:34,080
Speaker 1: impacted area and people, and that makes relief efforts hard

1389
01:28:34,160 --> 01:28:37,280
Speaker 1: to pull off. No country on its own has the

1390
01:28:37,360 --> 01:28:40,920
Speaker 1: ability to actually make these sort of arrangements. That's why

1391
01:28:41,040 --> 01:28:44,320
Speaker 1: I think it is important that these negotiations could take

1392
01:28:44,400 --> 01:28:46,960
Speaker 1: place either through the u N or through the European

1393
01:28:47,120 --> 01:28:51,000
Speaker 1: Union by pulling resources. I would not feel confident having

1394
01:28:51,080 --> 01:28:54,800
Speaker 1: these sort of discussions at a bilateral level. He also

1395
01:28:54,880 --> 01:28:58,960
Speaker 1: added that he has not directly communicated with Damascus. He

1396
01:28:59,040 --> 01:29:02,080
Speaker 1: went on to say that quote. I want to stress this,

1397
01:29:02,560 --> 01:29:05,720
Speaker 1: this is not about geopolitics, This is not about recognizing

1398
01:29:05,720 --> 01:29:08,320
Speaker 1: any sort of regime. This is about saving people and

1399
01:29:08,400 --> 01:29:12,040
Speaker 1: horrible conditions who desperately need our assistance. So the scale

1400
01:29:12,080 --> 01:29:14,880
Speaker 1: of aid being offered is going to require a large

1401
01:29:14,960 --> 01:29:18,840
Speaker 1: coordination effort as well as delicate diplomatic maneuvers to supply

1402
01:29:19,000 --> 01:29:21,840
Speaker 1: aid to Syria, where the leadership of Charla said is

1403
01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:26,080
Speaker 1: not recognized in the West. It's not recognized for me either,

1404
01:29:26,400 --> 01:29:29,280
Speaker 1: and many Syrians feel the same way. But that is

1405
01:29:29,320 --> 01:29:32,200
Speaker 1: the monster that we are currently dealing with and there's

1406
01:29:32,240 --> 01:29:34,160
Speaker 1: not much we can do about that at this certain

1407
01:29:34,200 --> 01:29:37,799
Speaker 1: point in time. And so, as I mentioned, the Syrian

1408
01:29:37,840 --> 01:29:39,879
Speaker 1: side of the border is going to be a challenge

1409
01:29:40,080 --> 01:29:43,640
Speaker 1: since the worst affected areas contain hundreds of thousands of

1410
01:29:43,720 --> 01:29:46,760
Speaker 1: Syrian refugees that are locked in a war zone and

1411
01:29:46,840 --> 01:29:51,679
Speaker 1: still facing attacks from Syrian government forces. Aid agencies reported

1412
01:29:51,720 --> 01:29:54,439
Speaker 1: that some of the roads from Turkey into Syria were blocked,

1413
01:29:54,560 --> 01:29:58,320
Speaker 1: including the main cross border crossing used by international aid agencies.

1414
01:29:59,160 --> 01:30:02,320
Speaker 1: The White Helmets said hundreds of families were still trapped

1415
01:30:02,360 --> 01:30:05,680
Speaker 1: in the aftermath of the earthquake. They also added that

1416
01:30:06,160 --> 01:30:10,080
Speaker 1: terrible weather conditions, including freezing temperatures, had compounded the crisis,

1417
01:30:11,120 --> 01:30:15,360
Speaker 1: and they're continuing rescue operations in Syria despite great difficulties

1418
01:30:15,400 --> 01:30:19,680
Speaker 1: and aftershocks, they said. The White Helmets also urged the

1419
01:30:19,720 --> 01:30:23,320
Speaker 1: Assad regime and Russia to refrain from military activity, and

1420
01:30:23,360 --> 01:30:26,760
Speaker 1: they affected areas in order to allow international groups to

1421
01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:30,920
Speaker 1: unify and help the people affected. A spokesperson from the

1422
01:30:30,960 --> 01:30:34,880
Speaker 1: White Helmets said, our teams responded and until now many

1423
01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:37,920
Speaker 1: families are under the rubble. Our teams are trying hard

1424
01:30:38,000 --> 01:30:41,200
Speaker 1: to find all the casualties. Northwest Syria is now a

1425
01:30:41,280 --> 01:30:44,920
Speaker 1: disaster area. We need help from everyone to save our people.

1426
01:30:46,760 --> 01:30:48,760
Speaker 1: I think this would be a moment to take a

1427
01:30:48,800 --> 01:30:54,120
Speaker 1: little break. I don't have the capacity or emotional bandwidth

1428
01:30:54,240 --> 01:30:57,600
Speaker 1: to think of a clever segue. So here are some

1429
01:30:57,760 --> 01:31:03,160
Speaker 1: ads and are back. We're talking about the difficulty sending

1430
01:31:03,200 --> 01:31:07,800
Speaker 1: aid to Syria along the Turkey Syrian border. Last month,

1431
01:31:07,880 --> 01:31:10,920
Speaker 1: actually the U N. Security Council agreed to allow aid

1432
01:31:11,040 --> 01:31:15,360
Speaker 1: into northwest Syria from Turkey across one border crossing Bablahella,

1433
01:31:16,000 --> 01:31:20,600
Speaker 1: surprising no one. The Syrian regime has been resistant to

1434
01:31:20,720 --> 01:31:24,519
Speaker 1: allowing aid into a region serving more than four million

1435
01:31:24,600 --> 01:31:28,200
Speaker 1: of its people because it regards the AID as undermining

1436
01:31:28,360 --> 01:31:32,559
Speaker 1: Syrian sovereignty and reducing its chances of winning back control

1437
01:31:32,720 --> 01:31:38,200
Speaker 1: of the region. Yes, that is correct. The Syrian government

1438
01:31:38,400 --> 01:31:40,519
Speaker 1: doesn't want to help more than four million of its

1439
01:31:40,560 --> 01:31:44,439
Speaker 1: own people because one day it wants to control them again.

1440
01:31:45,920 --> 01:31:50,439
Speaker 1: Are you fucking kidding me? I? I don't understand that

1441
01:31:50,880 --> 01:31:56,120
Speaker 1: malignant desire to rule over a land that you have destroyed,

1442
01:31:56,520 --> 01:32:00,280
Speaker 1: in a people that you have murdered. I don't get

1443
01:32:00,439 --> 01:32:05,320
Speaker 1: the fucking point. But regardless, that is one of the

1444
01:32:05,400 --> 01:32:08,600
Speaker 1: many reasons why getting aid into Syria is going to

1445
01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:13,480
Speaker 1: be much more complicated than getting aid into Turkey. Additionally,

1446
01:32:13,760 --> 01:32:18,080
Speaker 1: Mark Locock, the former head of UN Humanitarian Affairs, said

1447
01:32:18,680 --> 01:32:21,760
Speaker 1: the area's worst affected by the earthquake inside Syria look

1448
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:24,479
Speaker 1: to be run by the Turkish controlled opposition and not

1449
01:32:24,640 --> 01:32:27,919
Speaker 1: by the Syrian government. It is going to require Turkish

1450
01:32:27,960 --> 01:32:31,280
Speaker 1: acquiescence to aid in these areas. It is unlikely the

1451
01:32:31,360 --> 01:32:35,320
Speaker 1: Syrian government will do much to help. Yes, Mark, I

1452
01:32:35,439 --> 01:32:38,400
Speaker 1: think you're right. The Syrian government isn't gonna do shit,

1453
01:32:38,840 --> 01:32:42,360
Speaker 1: if anything. Charles said, is probably happy seeing all these

1454
01:32:42,400 --> 01:32:45,240
Speaker 1: people dying, because that's his whole mma, just to kill

1455
01:32:45,360 --> 01:32:50,719
Speaker 1: the Syrian people anyway. A video from a hospital posted

1456
01:32:50,760 --> 01:32:53,960
Speaker 1: by the Syrian American Medical Society showed that it was

1457
01:32:54,080 --> 01:32:58,400
Speaker 1: immensely crowded. They said, our hospitals are overwhelmed with patients

1458
01:32:58,439 --> 01:33:01,400
Speaker 1: filling the hallways. There is an mediate need for trauma

1459
01:33:01,439 --> 01:33:05,200
Speaker 1: supplies and a comprehensive emergency response to save lives and

1460
01:33:05,320 --> 01:33:09,360
Speaker 1: treat the injured. Initial needs are for tens of thousands

1461
01:33:09,439 --> 01:33:13,120
Speaker 1: of tents, heaters for the tents, tens of thousands of blankets,

1462
01:33:13,240 --> 01:33:16,880
Speaker 1: thermal clothes, ready to eat food, and basic first aid kits.

1463
01:33:17,960 --> 01:33:21,000
Speaker 1: A UNICEF representative in Aleppo said that the hospitals in

1464
01:33:21,080 --> 01:33:26,160
Speaker 1: Syria are absolutely overloaded. Hospitals are full of patients with trauma,

1465
01:33:26,439 --> 01:33:29,720
Speaker 1: broken bones and lacerations, and some people are going to

1466
01:33:29,800 --> 01:33:32,240
Speaker 1: the hospital to seek help for the mental trauma they

1467
01:33:32,320 --> 01:33:37,800
Speaker 1: endured after the earthquake struck, The UNISEF representative Angela Kearney said,

1468
01:33:38,040 --> 01:33:42,960
Speaker 1: while hospitals are functioning, the task has been overwhelming. Describing

1469
01:33:43,040 --> 01:33:45,839
Speaker 1: the scene in Aleppo when the earthquake struck on Monday,

1470
01:33:46,320 --> 01:33:49,479
Speaker 1: Kearnie said children who have already been traumatized by war

1471
01:33:49,960 --> 01:33:54,840
Speaker 1: were bewildered. They didn't know what was happening. Kearnie said

1472
01:33:54,960 --> 01:33:57,479
Speaker 1: that on Monday morning, when UNISEEF began its work in

1473
01:33:57,560 --> 01:34:00,280
Speaker 1: the area, there were seven schools and a bow that

1474
01:34:00,360 --> 01:34:04,280
Speaker 1: are being used as shelters. By Tuesday morning, that number

1475
01:34:04,360 --> 01:34:07,720
Speaker 1: grew to sixty seven and currently it is nearly two

1476
01:34:07,840 --> 01:34:11,639
Speaker 1: hundred and all of those schools that are partially damaged.

1477
01:34:11,800 --> 01:34:14,720
Speaker 1: There are families there who left their apartments, left their

1478
01:34:14,760 --> 01:34:18,719
Speaker 1: houses with just their pajamas, she said. She also added

1479
01:34:18,920 --> 01:34:21,960
Speaker 1: that while aid is starting to go into the affected areas,

1480
01:34:22,160 --> 01:34:25,920
Speaker 1: there is still a desperate need for blankets, food, clean water,

1481
01:34:26,120 --> 01:34:30,480
Speaker 1: medical care and nutritional care. She said that water, sanitation

1482
01:34:30,640 --> 01:34:33,920
Speaker 1: and nutrition needs are the most urgent. The aid is

1483
01:34:33,960 --> 01:34:36,799
Speaker 1: starting to go in, but it is overwhelming. The needs

1484
01:34:37,000 --> 01:34:40,840
Speaker 1: are very great. There are discussions under way to open

1485
01:34:40,960 --> 01:34:43,760
Speaker 1: aid corridors from the government controlled parts of Syria to

1486
01:34:43,960 --> 01:34:48,519
Speaker 1: the rebel held areas. Hammad Hammoud, Syria Country manager at

1487
01:34:48,520 --> 01:34:51,760
Speaker 1: the Norwegian Red Cross, said that he hopes with the

1488
01:34:51,840 --> 01:34:55,519
Speaker 1: help and efforts from humanitarian communities, this would happen in

1489
01:34:55,600 --> 01:34:59,720
Speaker 1: the coming days, and he said currently nothing has moved there,

1490
01:35:00,560 --> 01:35:03,240
Speaker 1: but there are discussions about moving aid and access to

1491
01:35:03,320 --> 01:35:06,800
Speaker 1: these areas. He continued to say after being asked if

1492
01:35:06,840 --> 01:35:10,120
Speaker 1: the Syrian government in Damascus has been helpful to these areas,

1493
01:35:10,680 --> 01:35:13,120
Speaker 1: he said. They have stated that they are open to

1494
01:35:13,240 --> 01:35:17,320
Speaker 1: cross line intervention, meaning from government held areas to these

1495
01:35:17,400 --> 01:35:21,360
Speaker 1: non government held areas. They are open to it. They'reout

1496
01:35:21,400 --> 01:35:25,479
Speaker 1: doing ship though obviously earlier today, the head of the

1497
01:35:25,600 --> 01:35:30,320
Speaker 1: Syrian Arab Red Crescent, which described itself as an independent

1498
01:35:30,439 --> 01:35:34,800
Speaker 1: and volunteer based humanitarian organization, said that the organization is

1499
01:35:34,880 --> 01:35:38,280
Speaker 1: ready to immediately send aid convoys to rebel held areas,

1500
01:35:38,439 --> 01:35:42,560
Speaker 1: including Islib through the u N. Hammoud added that the

1501
01:35:42,640 --> 01:35:46,600
Speaker 1: humanitarian situation is worsening. He said, we are in a

1502
01:35:46,720 --> 01:35:50,960
Speaker 1: race against time. In describing the rescue and search operations,

1503
01:35:51,080 --> 01:35:53,800
Speaker 1: Hammoud said that due to the lack of machinery, most

1504
01:35:53,840 --> 01:35:55,840
Speaker 1: of the work on clearing the rubble is done by

1505
01:35:55,960 --> 01:35:59,840
Speaker 1: hand and the cold weather conditions are not helping. He

1506
01:36:00,000 --> 01:36:02,920
Speaker 1: also added that the buildings are already weakened because of

1507
01:36:03,000 --> 01:36:06,560
Speaker 1: eleven years of war. In addition to the thousands of

1508
01:36:06,680 --> 01:36:09,479
Speaker 1: people that have been lost to this tragedy, there are

1509
01:36:09,520 --> 01:36:12,600
Speaker 1: also some cultural sites that have been permanently damaged in

1510
01:36:12,680 --> 01:36:17,480
Speaker 1: both Turkey and Syria. UNESCO, the United Nations Cultural organization,

1511
01:36:17,960 --> 01:36:21,360
Speaker 1: said it's going to provide assistance following the cultural site damage,

1512
01:36:22,160 --> 01:36:25,679
Speaker 1: UNESCO said that it is particularly concerned about the situation

1513
01:36:25,800 --> 01:36:28,320
Speaker 1: in the ancient city of Aleppo, which is on the

1514
01:36:28,479 --> 01:36:32,080
Speaker 1: list of World Heritage and Danger. It added that the

1515
01:36:32,200 --> 01:36:36,839
Speaker 1: citadel had significant damage, the old city wall has collapsed,

1516
01:36:36,920 --> 01:36:40,200
Speaker 1: and several buildings and the sux have been weakened. In

1517
01:36:40,280 --> 01:36:43,560
Speaker 1: the Turkish city of the yad Beka, UNESCO lamented the

1518
01:36:43,640 --> 01:36:46,800
Speaker 1: collapse of several buildings. The city is home to the

1519
01:36:46,880 --> 01:36:50,080
Speaker 1: World Heritage Site, the Yabukat of Fortress and the he

1520
01:36:50,240 --> 01:36:53,920
Speaker 1: cl Gardens cultural landscape, which is an important center of

1521
01:36:54,040 --> 01:36:58,600
Speaker 1: the Roman, sun Acid, Byzantine, Islamic and Ottoman periods. The

1522
01:36:58,760 --> 01:37:02,639
Speaker 1: organization says it is mobilizing experts to establish a precise

1523
01:37:02,720 --> 01:37:06,320
Speaker 1: inventory of the damage with the aim of rapidly securing

1524
01:37:06,439 --> 01:37:10,320
Speaker 1: and stabilizing these sites. Aleppo was also one of the

1525
01:37:10,600 --> 01:37:16,200
Speaker 1: city's worst damaged by the Syrian regime. It is a beautiful,

1526
01:37:17,040 --> 01:37:21,120
Speaker 1: beautiful place. Everything that the regime has destroyed was a beautiful,

1527
01:37:21,120 --> 01:37:24,720
Speaker 1: beautiful place. Aleppo had a lot of history, though, and

1528
01:37:25,680 --> 01:37:29,280
Speaker 1: that region is just home to so much history, and

1529
01:37:29,600 --> 01:37:33,040
Speaker 1: it's just really heartbreaking to know the extent of the

1530
01:37:33,200 --> 01:37:39,160
Speaker 1: loss that doesn't just include lives. In talking to my

1531
01:37:39,320 --> 01:37:43,840
Speaker 1: mom and my family about this, the sentiment seems like

1532
01:37:44,040 --> 01:37:47,879
Speaker 1: it's the same that it's been for the past decade. Essentially,

1533
01:37:49,080 --> 01:37:54,080
Speaker 1: Syrians don't have a government. There is no government. Assad

1534
01:37:54,160 --> 01:37:58,519
Speaker 1: in his regime doesn't care about the Syrian people. My

1535
01:37:58,640 --> 01:38:02,200
Speaker 1: mom literally said, we have no one. We've known this

1536
01:38:02,320 --> 01:38:05,720
Speaker 1: for years, no one helped us. Syrians are the ones

1537
01:38:05,760 --> 01:38:09,360
Speaker 1: supporting each other. The White Helmets is a great example

1538
01:38:09,479 --> 01:38:12,559
Speaker 1: of this. One of our family's friends on the ground

1539
01:38:12,720 --> 01:38:14,559
Speaker 1: in the city of Hamma, which is where my mom

1540
01:38:14,680 --> 01:38:18,400
Speaker 1: is from, was saying that it was absolute chaos. Everyone

1541
01:38:18,479 --> 01:38:20,439
Speaker 1: is in the streets and no one is daring to

1542
01:38:20,520 --> 01:38:24,120
Speaker 1: go back inside their homes. Another person was telling us

1543
01:38:24,120 --> 01:38:27,160
Speaker 1: about his experience, and he said, I was asleep and

1544
01:38:27,280 --> 01:38:31,120
Speaker 1: felt the earthquake start in my bed. My son was terrified,

1545
01:38:31,600 --> 01:38:34,160
Speaker 1: and I went to hug my son. I kept telling

1546
01:38:34,240 --> 01:38:37,360
Speaker 1: him it'll be over soon, It'll be over soon, and

1547
01:38:37,479 --> 01:38:40,680
Speaker 1: then the roof started crumbling on top of us. So

1548
01:38:41,160 --> 01:38:43,840
Speaker 1: then he ran outside and he saw many people doing

1549
01:38:43,880 --> 01:38:47,320
Speaker 1: the same, just running outside their homes if they were

1550
01:38:47,360 --> 01:38:49,840
Speaker 1: able to make it out, and watching their homes just

1551
01:38:50,000 --> 01:38:53,439
Speaker 1: crumble in front of them. Let's take a break, and

1552
01:38:53,479 --> 01:38:55,799
Speaker 1: when we come back, I want to set the scene

1553
01:38:56,439 --> 01:38:59,160
Speaker 1: of what Syrians have been going through even before this

1554
01:38:59,320 --> 01:39:02,840
Speaker 1: earthquake been happened, and how sanctions in particular have made

1555
01:39:02,880 --> 01:39:08,320
Speaker 1: the impact of this disaster exponentially worse. So we're back

1556
01:39:08,680 --> 01:39:12,360
Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about how sanctions have only

1557
01:39:12,479 --> 01:39:16,559
Speaker 1: aided in the suffering of the Syrian people. Twelve years

1558
01:39:16,720 --> 01:39:20,040
Speaker 1: after the eruption of the Syrian Uprising and the eleven

1559
01:39:20,120 --> 01:39:24,479
Speaker 1: subsequent conflict, the us IS Syria policy has constrained political

1560
01:39:24,560 --> 01:39:28,840
Speaker 1: pressure on the Assad regime to broad economic sanctions, but

1561
01:39:29,280 --> 01:39:33,680
Speaker 1: despite an expansive approach that targets entire economic sectors, these

1562
01:39:33,720 --> 01:39:36,320
Speaker 1: sanctions have had little to no effect in pushing the

1563
01:39:36,439 --> 01:39:40,280
Speaker 1: regime to offer political concessions, engage meaningfully in a peaceful

1564
01:39:40,280 --> 01:39:43,599
Speaker 1: settlement of the conflict, or improve its human rights record.

1565
01:39:44,280 --> 01:39:47,760
Speaker 1: All the while, conditions in Syria have steadily worsened as

1566
01:39:47,840 --> 01:39:51,519
Speaker 1: sanctions along with the destructive effects of twelve years of conflict,

1567
01:39:51,640 --> 01:39:55,360
Speaker 1: the economic crisis and neighboring Lebanon, and the COVID nineteen pandemic.

1568
01:39:55,720 --> 01:39:59,080
Speaker 1: All of this has fueled an economic collapse that has

1569
01:39:59,200 --> 01:40:02,200
Speaker 1: left more than i d percent of the population in

1570
01:40:02,280 --> 01:40:07,160
Speaker 1: Syria living in poverty. In nineteen seventy nine, the United

1571
01:40:07,200 --> 01:40:10,920
Speaker 1: States listed Syria as a state sponsor of terrorism, and

1572
01:40:11,040 --> 01:40:14,200
Speaker 1: since then it has pursued sanctions as a primary tool

1573
01:40:14,240 --> 01:40:19,160
Speaker 1: in its policy towards Syria. The George W. Bush administration

1574
01:40:19,320 --> 01:40:22,600
Speaker 1: issued a series of sanctions under executive orders aiming to

1575
01:40:22,760 --> 01:40:28,160
Speaker 1: limit serious destabilizing influence in Iraq. However, after the uprising,

1576
01:40:28,320 --> 01:40:32,080
Speaker 1: the Barack Obama and Donald Trump administrations sanctioned the Assad

1577
01:40:32,160 --> 01:40:35,880
Speaker 1: regime on an unprecedented scale for its gross human rights

1578
01:40:36,000 --> 01:40:40,680
Speaker 1: violations against his people. These sanctions ultimately accumulated in the

1579
01:40:40,800 --> 01:40:44,120
Speaker 1: passing of the Caesar Act in twenty nineteen, and this

1580
01:40:44,280 --> 01:40:48,080
Speaker 1: allows primary and secondary sanctions targeting both those who commit

1581
01:40:48,200 --> 01:40:52,880
Speaker 1: the sanctionable offenses and those who enable them. Just three

1582
01:40:52,960 --> 01:40:57,280
Speaker 1: months ago, in November two, a u when appointed independent

1583
01:40:57,400 --> 01:41:00,400
Speaker 1: human rights expert urge the United States to lift the

1584
01:41:00,520 --> 01:41:04,240
Speaker 1: unilateral sanctions against Syria, warning that they are perpetrating and

1585
01:41:04,360 --> 01:41:08,880
Speaker 1: exacerbating the destruction and trauma suffered by ordinary citizens since

1586
01:41:08,960 --> 01:41:14,439
Speaker 1: the brutal war began in This expert's name is Alana Dohan,

1587
01:41:14,760 --> 01:41:18,120
Speaker 1: and she said, I am struck by the pervasiveness of

1588
01:41:18,200 --> 01:41:22,160
Speaker 1: the human rights and humanitarian impact of the unilateral coercive

1589
01:41:22,160 --> 01:41:26,080
Speaker 1: measures imposed on Syria, and the total economic and financial

1590
01:41:26,160 --> 01:41:30,200
Speaker 1: isolation of a country whose people are struggling to rebuild

1591
01:41:30,280 --> 01:41:34,240
Speaker 1: a life with dignity. In a statement that followed her

1592
01:41:34,320 --> 01:41:38,600
Speaker 1: twelve day visit to Syria, Dohan presented detailed information on

1593
01:41:38,680 --> 01:41:42,200
Speaker 1: the catastrophic effects that sanctions have had on all aspects

1594
01:41:42,240 --> 01:41:47,120
Speaker 1: of Syrian life. Currently, serious population is living below the

1595
01:41:47,160 --> 01:41:53,000
Speaker 1: poverty line, she said, pointing to their limited access to food, water, electricity, shelter,

1596
01:41:53,479 --> 01:41:59,600
Speaker 1: cooking and heating, fuel, transportation, and healthcare. Moreover, growing economic

1597
01:41:59,680 --> 01:42:02,560
Speaker 1: hards ship threatens to trigger a massive brain drain in

1598
01:42:02,640 --> 01:42:07,040
Speaker 1: the country, she said, with more than half of the

1599
01:42:07,240 --> 01:42:12,080
Speaker 1: vital infrastructure either completely destroyed or severely damaged. The imposition

1600
01:42:12,160 --> 01:42:19,000
Speaker 1: of unilateral sanctions on key economic sectors, including oil, gas, electricity, trade, construction,

1601
01:42:19,080 --> 01:42:23,280
Speaker 1: and engineering, have quashed national income and they undermine efforts

1602
01:42:23,320 --> 01:42:29,160
Speaker 1: towards economic recovery and reconstruction. These sanctions have committed various

1603
01:42:29,240 --> 01:42:34,000
Speaker 1: human rights violations in their existence, including these serious shortages

1604
01:42:34,040 --> 01:42:38,880
Speaker 1: and medicines and specialized medical equipment. My family and I

1605
01:42:39,120 --> 01:42:43,160
Speaker 1: have direct experience with these repercussions of the lack of

1606
01:42:43,600 --> 01:42:50,000
Speaker 1: medicines and medical equipment. My cousin, a child, had brain

1607
01:42:50,120 --> 01:42:56,200
Speaker 1: cancer and it got worse and worse, and the city

1608
01:42:56,240 --> 01:42:59,400
Speaker 1: they were in did not offer the treatment necessary or

1609
01:42:59,479 --> 01:43:02,880
Speaker 1: even key mo to help his condition. So his mother

1610
01:43:03,000 --> 01:43:06,320
Speaker 1: would drive to Damascus, where at least some of the

1611
01:43:06,400 --> 01:43:11,639
Speaker 1: treatment options were available. But the road to Damascus, even

1612
01:43:11,680 --> 01:43:14,120
Speaker 1: though it shouldn't take more than a few hours, can

1613
01:43:14,240 --> 01:43:17,640
Speaker 1: sometimes take all day because there are so many checkpoints

1614
01:43:17,920 --> 01:43:21,479
Speaker 1: and road closures and just the regime making it so

1615
01:43:21,680 --> 01:43:28,439
Speaker 1: difficult to do anything. Ultimately, my cousin was suffering for

1616
01:43:28,720 --> 01:43:32,840
Speaker 1: the remainder of his very young life, and he didn't

1617
01:43:32,880 --> 01:43:35,639
Speaker 1: get the treatment that he needed. And I really think

1618
01:43:36,200 --> 01:43:39,360
Speaker 1: these sanctions have a lot to do with the lack

1619
01:43:39,560 --> 01:43:44,200
Speaker 1: of access that my family and many families have in Syria.

1620
01:43:45,280 --> 01:43:50,400
Speaker 1: And that experience that my family went through is one

1621
01:43:50,560 --> 01:43:54,560
Speaker 1: of many that many Syrian families have endured because of

1622
01:43:54,680 --> 01:43:58,000
Speaker 1: these sanctions. So I want you guys to keep that

1623
01:43:58,120 --> 01:44:05,800
Speaker 1: in mind. That numbers also contain individual lives, and each

1624
01:44:05,880 --> 01:44:10,040
Speaker 1: one is devastating all on its own. And I know

1625
01:44:10,240 --> 01:44:13,280
Speaker 1: I say that often, but I think it bears repeating

1626
01:44:13,439 --> 01:44:16,560
Speaker 1: every time. I don't want us to be numb to

1627
01:44:17,320 --> 01:44:23,000
Speaker 1: statistics and numbers when it comes to casualties and suffering

1628
01:44:23,200 --> 01:44:27,760
Speaker 1: and loss. And maybe it sounds obvious, but I just

1629
01:44:27,920 --> 01:44:31,439
Speaker 1: think we need to remember the value of human life

1630
01:44:31,760 --> 01:44:35,679
Speaker 1: and what it means to take it away. So that's

1631
01:44:36,040 --> 01:44:38,840
Speaker 1: what I'm going to say about that for now. Let's

1632
01:44:38,880 --> 01:44:42,679
Speaker 1: get back to the reports that Ms Dohan was showing

1633
01:44:42,720 --> 01:44:45,760
Speaker 1: the US back in November two about the effect of

1634
01:44:45,840 --> 01:44:50,000
Speaker 1: the sanctions, so including the impact that sanctions have had

1635
01:44:50,160 --> 01:44:53,839
Speaker 1: on these serious shortages and medicines and specialized medical equipment

1636
01:44:54,160 --> 01:44:57,240
Speaker 1: due to the unavailability of equipment and spare parts. She

1637
01:44:57,400 --> 01:45:01,759
Speaker 1: warned that the rehabilitation and development of water distribution networks

1638
01:45:01,840 --> 01:45:05,960
Speaker 1: for drinking and irrigation has stalled, with serious implications for

1639
01:45:06,080 --> 01:45:11,200
Speaker 1: public health and food security. Twelve million Syrians are experiencing

1640
01:45:11,240 --> 01:45:14,960
Speaker 1: food and security. This is pre earthquake. The number is

1641
01:45:15,040 --> 01:45:19,360
Speaker 1: probably much higher now. Dohan urged for the immediate lifting

1642
01:45:19,520 --> 01:45:23,560
Speaker 1: of all unilateral sanctions that severely harm human rights and

1643
01:45:23,680 --> 01:45:29,040
Speaker 1: prevent any efforts for early recovery, rebuilding and reconstruction. She said,

1644
01:45:29,600 --> 01:45:33,720
Speaker 1: no reference to good objectives of unilateral sanctions justifies the

1645
01:45:33,840 --> 01:45:38,200
Speaker 1: violation of fundamental human rights. The international community has an

1646
01:45:38,280 --> 01:45:42,920
Speaker 1: obligation of solidarity and assistance to the Syrian people. I

1647
01:45:43,000 --> 01:45:46,400
Speaker 1: want to add something that UNICEF said about the children

1648
01:45:46,479 --> 01:45:50,200
Speaker 1: in Syria. Children in Syria continue to face one of

1649
01:45:50,240 --> 01:45:54,360
Speaker 1: the most complex humanitarian situations in the world. A worsening

1650
01:45:54,439 --> 01:45:59,040
Speaker 1: economic crisis. Continued localized hostilities after more than a decade

1651
01:45:59,080 --> 01:46:03,760
Speaker 1: of grinding, con liked mass displacement, and devastated public infrastructure

1652
01:46:04,160 --> 01:46:07,600
Speaker 1: have left two thirds of the population in need of assistance.

1653
01:46:08,400 --> 01:46:12,280
Speaker 1: Water Borne diseases pose another deadly threat to children and

1654
01:46:12,360 --> 01:46:17,000
Speaker 1: families affected. And all of this is again pre earthquake.

1655
01:46:17,439 --> 01:46:19,880
Speaker 1: This is the life that Syrians have known for years

1656
01:46:19,920 --> 01:46:25,640
Speaker 1: now without any assistance. Sanctions have done nothing but contribute

1657
01:46:25,680 --> 01:46:28,400
Speaker 1: to the increase in the suffering of Assyrian people, and

1658
01:46:28,520 --> 01:46:32,000
Speaker 1: now countries and organizations might have a hard time providing

1659
01:46:32,120 --> 01:46:37,080
Speaker 1: aid because of these sanctions. Sanctions have done nothing but

1660
01:46:37,240 --> 01:46:41,519
Speaker 1: contribute to the suffering and pain of Assyrian people. They

1661
01:46:41,600 --> 01:46:45,360
Speaker 1: didn't do anything they were supposedly meant to do. The

1662
01:46:45,439 --> 01:46:49,479
Speaker 1: assad regime isn't going to change anything. It hasn't changed anything.

1663
01:46:49,720 --> 01:46:53,040
Speaker 1: It's still killing its people. I also want to mention

1664
01:46:53,160 --> 01:46:58,559
Speaker 1: that last year on MATEO, the EU extended its sanctions

1665
01:46:58,640 --> 01:47:02,240
Speaker 1: against the Syrian government for another year. Who knows if

1666
01:47:02,280 --> 01:47:06,400
Speaker 1: this will change, but for now that's the reality. So

1667
01:47:06,479 --> 01:47:10,439
Speaker 1: I'm really hoping these sanctions get eventually lifted or else.

1668
01:47:10,680 --> 01:47:13,719
Speaker 1: Helping the Syrian people is going to be extremely difficult,

1669
01:47:14,880 --> 01:47:18,760
Speaker 1: and right now rescuers are still digging through thousands and

1670
01:47:18,880 --> 01:47:24,599
Speaker 1: thousands of flattened buildings in near freezing temperatures. The death

1671
01:47:24,680 --> 01:47:28,960
Speaker 1: toll is only going to continue to rise, and everyone

1672
01:47:29,080 --> 01:47:32,600
Speaker 1: there needs all the help they can get. And I know,

1673
01:47:33,160 --> 01:47:36,800
Speaker 1: at least for me, it feels really helpless. I've felt

1674
01:47:37,000 --> 01:47:39,960
Speaker 1: pretty helpless for a long time when it comes to Syria.

1675
01:47:40,760 --> 01:47:43,160
Speaker 1: But if you're able to donate any money at all,

1676
01:47:43,360 --> 01:47:45,439
Speaker 1: I would really urge you to donate to a charity

1677
01:47:45,479 --> 01:47:49,040
Speaker 1: that you trust. I really like the White Helmets because

1678
01:47:49,200 --> 01:47:51,200
Speaker 1: they're just on the ground and they've been doing the

1679
01:47:51,280 --> 01:47:55,519
Speaker 1: work for years. So if you're able to, I think

1680
01:47:55,600 --> 01:47:58,599
Speaker 1: help can go a long way. I want to end

1681
01:47:58,680 --> 01:48:02,800
Speaker 1: with something that Atlanta Dohan, the UN appointed independent human

1682
01:48:02,920 --> 01:48:06,080
Speaker 1: rights expert that gave the US this report about the

1683
01:48:06,160 --> 01:48:11,880
Speaker 1: sanctions in November. She quoted one view that she heard

1684
01:48:12,000 --> 01:48:17,200
Speaker 1: expressed many times. She said, I saw much suffering, but

1685
01:48:17,360 --> 01:48:20,880
Speaker 1: now I see the hope die. So that's where the

1686
01:48:20,920 --> 01:48:26,479
Speaker 1: Syrian people started, that's where they've been. Nearly seventy of

1687
01:48:26,560 --> 01:48:30,200
Speaker 1: the Syrian population was already in need of humanitarian aid

1688
01:48:30,360 --> 01:48:34,160
Speaker 1: before the earthquake even happened, and it's an issue that's

1689
01:48:34,160 --> 01:48:38,719
Speaker 1: only been compounded by the tragedy today. The UN said, quote,

1690
01:48:39,120 --> 01:48:42,760
Speaker 1: this tragedy will have a devastating impact on many vulnerable

1691
01:48:42,840 --> 01:48:45,800
Speaker 1: families who struggle to provide for their loved ones on

1692
01:48:45,880 --> 01:48:49,799
Speaker 1: a daily basis. The statement outlined the impact of serious

1693
01:48:49,880 --> 01:48:54,519
Speaker 1: twelve year war, describing a country as grappling with economic collapse,

1694
01:48:54,680 --> 01:48:59,439
Speaker 1: severe water, electricity and fuel shortages. They issued an appeal

1695
01:48:59,560 --> 01:49:04,000
Speaker 1: to all donor partners to provide assistance necessary to alleviate suffering.

1696
01:49:04,800 --> 01:49:07,599
Speaker 1: The U N and humanitarian partners say they are currently

1697
01:49:07,680 --> 01:49:11,639
Speaker 1: focusing on immediate needs including food, shelter and non food

1698
01:49:11,720 --> 01:49:16,559
Speaker 1: items and medicine. And the devastation of this earthquake because

1699
01:49:16,640 --> 01:49:21,320
Speaker 1: of this is truly devastating. I cannot emphasize that enough.

1700
01:49:22,560 --> 01:49:25,320
Speaker 1: So again, if you're able to donate, I really urge

1701
01:49:25,360 --> 01:49:28,760
Speaker 1: you too, And if you can't, just keep raising awareness

1702
01:49:28,840 --> 01:49:32,760
Speaker 1: because someone else might be able to donate. And that's

1703
01:49:32,760 --> 01:49:37,559
Speaker 1: all we really have for now. So that's the episode.

1704
01:49:37,600 --> 01:49:40,160
Speaker 1: I hope it was informative or eye opening in any way.

1705
01:49:40,960 --> 01:49:43,680
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening. I will talk to you later.

1706
01:49:53,680 --> 01:49:56,439
Speaker 1: It seems like hardly a month goes by where we

1707
01:49:56,560 --> 01:50:00,439
Speaker 1: are not bombarded with horrific images of far ride Islands,

1708
01:50:01,240 --> 01:50:05,280
Speaker 1: mass shootings, the target synagogues, black churches and queer nightclubs,

1709
01:50:05,920 --> 01:50:09,679
Speaker 1: death threats to hospitals spurred by post from online trolls.

1710
01:50:10,280 --> 01:50:14,080
Speaker 1: In a barrage of fascist groups attempting to intimidate everyone

1711
01:50:14,160 --> 01:50:19,360
Speaker 1: and everything, from children's events, black Lives Matter protests, pride celebrations,

1712
01:50:19,520 --> 01:50:24,000
Speaker 1: and abortion clinics. Wooden resistance is mobilized and people do

1713
01:50:24,200 --> 01:50:27,920
Speaker 1: push back. The media often frames these confrontations the clash

1714
01:50:28,040 --> 01:50:31,840
Speaker 1: simply between two sets of extremists. On today's shows, the

1715
01:50:31,960 --> 01:50:34,840
Speaker 1: It's Going Down crew once again takes over. It could happen.

1716
01:50:34,960 --> 01:50:37,919
Speaker 1: Here we look at how far from being just confined

1717
01:50:38,000 --> 01:50:42,160
Speaker 1: to small sets of antifast super soldiers, mass community self

1718
01:50:42,200 --> 01:50:45,360
Speaker 1: defense is part and parcels to the DNA of grassroots

1719
01:50:45,439 --> 01:50:48,720
Speaker 1: movements for liberation in the so called United States. We

1720
01:50:48,800 --> 01:50:52,200
Speaker 1: can see this throughout the ongoing history of indigenous resistance

1721
01:50:52,240 --> 01:50:55,680
Speaker 1: to colonization. In the fight against slavery and racial apartheid.

1722
01:50:56,080 --> 01:50:59,599
Speaker 1: Radical labor unions such as the i w W organized

1723
01:50:59,640 --> 01:51:03,080
Speaker 1: against Ku Klux Klan attention that even led to running

1724
01:51:03,160 --> 01:51:07,400
Speaker 1: gun battles, while militant organizers like Robert F. Williams and

1725
01:51:07,479 --> 01:51:10,439
Speaker 1: groups such as the Deacons for Defense, who helped inspire

1726
01:51:10,520 --> 01:51:14,479
Speaker 1: the Black Panthers, fought back against white racist mobs. In

1727
01:51:14,600 --> 01:51:17,080
Speaker 1: the book This Non Violent Stuff Will Get You Killed,

1728
01:51:17,560 --> 01:51:21,800
Speaker 1: author Charles E. Cobb documents this history, discussing the wide

1729
01:51:21,920 --> 01:51:25,840
Speaker 1: use of arms and defending civil rights organizers from white supremacists.

1730
01:51:26,280 --> 01:51:29,719
Speaker 1: Groups like Anti Racist Action or a r A carried

1731
01:51:29,760 --> 01:51:33,320
Speaker 1: on this trajectory, working to set up chapters of organized

1732
01:51:33,360 --> 01:51:36,960
Speaker 1: anti racists that confronted neo Nazi groups the Clan, and

1733
01:51:37,040 --> 01:51:41,559
Speaker 1: participated in defense of abortion clinics. Once again, I'm Mike Andrews.

1734
01:51:41,720 --> 01:51:45,560
Speaker 1: Let's get into it. In two thousand five, in the

1735
01:51:45,640 --> 01:51:49,360
Speaker 1: wake of Hurricane Katrina, the levy surrounding New Orleans broke,

1736
01:51:49,760 --> 01:51:54,360
Speaker 1: flooding working class communities and homes. Those that could evacuate fled,

1737
01:51:54,680 --> 01:51:58,080
Speaker 1: while many, often poor and black, were stuck behind to

1738
01:51:58,240 --> 01:52:01,840
Speaker 1: fend for themselves. Stepping into this setting was a group

1739
01:52:01,880 --> 01:52:05,200
Speaker 1: of Black Liberation and anarchist activists who worked to set

1740
01:52:05,280 --> 01:52:08,759
Speaker 1: up mutual aid hubs and free clinics, dubbed Common Ground.

1741
01:52:09,360 --> 01:52:13,599
Speaker 1: But as these volunteers worked to feed people, restore people's homes,

1742
01:52:13,920 --> 01:52:17,240
Speaker 1: and provide free medical care, they quickly found that they

1743
01:52:17,280 --> 01:52:20,759
Speaker 1: weren't the only organized force on the streets of New Orleans.

1744
01:52:21,760 --> 01:52:26,000
Speaker 1: In this following interview, Sunseri Ali Shakur discusses how the

1745
01:52:26,040 --> 01:52:29,040
Speaker 1: group came up against and defended themselves from a formation

1746
01:52:29,200 --> 01:52:33,439
Speaker 1: of armed racist white vigilantees who worked directly with local

1747
01:52:33,520 --> 01:52:36,800
Speaker 1: police and our suspected of carrying out multiple murders of

1748
01:52:36,920 --> 01:52:41,080
Speaker 1: unarmed black men a warning. However, this interview was graphic

1749
01:52:41,280 --> 01:52:46,360
Speaker 1: in details death, racist violence, and anti black racism. My

1750
01:52:46,479 --> 01:52:51,439
Speaker 1: name is s I'm organized out of Wasson and d C.

1751
01:52:52,040 --> 01:52:57,920
Speaker 1: I went to New Orleans UH doing Kataka add the

1752
01:52:58,000 --> 01:53:03,400
Speaker 1: mass and I helped um co co found Common Ground

1753
01:53:03,479 --> 01:53:08,519
Speaker 1: Relief and Common Ground was formed as a response to

1754
01:53:08,640 --> 01:53:14,160
Speaker 1: the calamity of Katrina and um Common Ground was also

1755
01:53:14,400 --> 01:53:17,960
Speaker 1: the brainchild of the Angola Three, so a lot of

1756
01:53:18,040 --> 01:53:22,240
Speaker 1: the base organizers of Common Ground were already in New Orleans.

1757
01:53:22,680 --> 01:53:26,519
Speaker 1: UH organized and the help the Angola Three. So the

1758
01:53:26,600 --> 01:53:31,400
Speaker 1: Angle of Three was basically the god fathers of common

1759
01:53:31,479 --> 01:53:35,479
Speaker 1: ground ground relief. We lost a few of the of

1760
01:53:35,600 --> 01:53:39,840
Speaker 1: the elders, Alfred wood Fox as such, and we still

1761
01:53:39,960 --> 01:53:45,439
Speaker 1: got King, Uh King, Wos and everything. A note to

1762
01:53:45,479 --> 01:53:48,760
Speaker 1: our listeners. The Angola Three referred to here is a

1763
01:53:48,840 --> 01:53:52,519
Speaker 1: group of formally incarcerated black political prisoners and members of

1764
01:53:52,560 --> 01:53:56,360
Speaker 1: the Black Parther Party in the ninet seventies were imprisoned

1765
01:53:56,520 --> 01:54:01,000
Speaker 1: in the notorious Angola Facility in Louisiana. This included Robert

1766
01:54:01,080 --> 01:54:04,800
Speaker 1: Hillary King, Albert wood Fox, and Hermann Wallace. King was

1767
01:54:04,880 --> 01:54:08,040
Speaker 1: released in two thousand one, and, along with another former

1768
01:54:08,120 --> 01:54:11,840
Speaker 1: Black Panther, Malik Raheem, became involved in mutual aid and

1769
01:54:11,880 --> 01:54:15,200
Speaker 1: disaster relief efforts in New Orleans following Katrina in two

1770
01:54:15,280 --> 01:54:19,000
Speaker 1: thousand five under the banner of common Ground. Wallace was

1771
01:54:19,040 --> 01:54:23,439
Speaker 1: released from prison in October one, only to pass away

1772
01:54:23,520 --> 01:54:27,120
Speaker 1: sadly three days later, a day after being reindited by

1773
01:54:27,160 --> 01:54:30,839
Speaker 1: the state. Albert Wood Fox was finally released in February

1774
01:54:30,880 --> 01:54:33,920
Speaker 1: of two thousand sixteen and passed on six years later

1775
01:54:34,200 --> 01:54:38,200
Speaker 1: due to complications from COVID nineteen tireless activists on both

1776
01:54:38,240 --> 01:54:41,160
Speaker 1: sides of the prison walls together the angal of three

1777
01:54:41,360 --> 01:54:46,680
Speaker 1: endured a combined total of one fourteen years in solitary confinement. Yeah,

1778
01:54:46,840 --> 01:54:49,280
Speaker 1: my job when I when I touched down the common

1779
01:54:49,360 --> 01:54:52,600
Speaker 1: ground was basically I was a relief scout UM. I

1780
01:54:52,720 --> 01:54:57,160
Speaker 1: wore many hats, I was a mediation person, head of

1781
01:54:57,240 --> 01:55:04,360
Speaker 1: security UM. And I also organized about seven UM makesuret

1782
01:55:04,760 --> 01:55:09,920
Speaker 1: hurricane distribution UH centers from New Orleans to the Bayou

1783
01:55:10,320 --> 01:55:14,720
Speaker 1: and I spent eighteen months there and children's free breakfast program,

1784
01:55:15,880 --> 01:55:19,560
Speaker 1: anything that the community needed, you know, I provided UM.

1785
01:55:19,600 --> 01:55:22,520
Speaker 1: I used to drive like fourteen hundred miles a week

1786
01:55:22,680 --> 01:55:28,800
Speaker 1: taking supplies from New Orleans UH into different bious and

1787
01:55:28,920 --> 01:55:32,720
Speaker 1: different surrounding areas in New Orleans. That was my my job.

1788
01:55:33,640 --> 01:55:36,640
Speaker 1: When I first got there, I ran into Malink Rahim,

1789
01:55:36,720 --> 01:55:40,560
Speaker 1: a former black pather in New Orleans, thus Minister of Defense,

1790
01:55:41,680 --> 01:55:45,360
Speaker 1: and when I touched down, he had told me that

1791
01:55:45,680 --> 01:55:50,200
Speaker 1: there were a group of white vigilantees, up to eighteen

1792
01:55:50,280 --> 01:55:55,320
Speaker 1: of them, riding around and murdering black people as they

1793
01:55:55,480 --> 01:55:59,960
Speaker 1: walked through these white communities and Algiers and alger Point.

1794
01:56:00,280 --> 01:56:04,720
Speaker 1: Algiers wasn't affected by water, but it did have a

1795
01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:08,000
Speaker 1: great deal of wind damage. Most of the houses wasn'ttact

1796
01:56:08,200 --> 01:56:11,720
Speaker 1: It just wasn't no electricity and the water was also

1797
01:56:11,800 --> 01:56:14,800
Speaker 1: a problem. Well, what they would do they would tie

1798
01:56:15,280 --> 01:56:20,040
Speaker 1: uh cans from one fence to another beginning of the

1799
01:56:20,800 --> 01:56:24,000
Speaker 1: neighborhood of the street. And if they were in their

1800
01:56:24,040 --> 01:56:27,720
Speaker 1: homes and uh you bumped in, you know you you

1801
01:56:27,840 --> 01:56:29,720
Speaker 1: tried to get up under the cans, and the cans

1802
01:56:29,760 --> 01:56:32,880
Speaker 1: started ringing. They would open up windows and and and

1803
01:56:33,040 --> 01:56:37,360
Speaker 1: begin uh fire at you. And they were jumping their

1804
01:56:37,400 --> 01:56:42,800
Speaker 1: pickup trucks and chase you down. And some uh you know,

1805
01:56:43,520 --> 01:56:46,920
Speaker 1: some are murdered, you know, point blank. And those whom

1806
01:56:47,160 --> 01:56:49,280
Speaker 1: they wounded, they were throwing the back of the truck.

1807
01:56:49,960 --> 01:56:54,720
Speaker 1: Take to a garage and pour gasoline over your wounds,

1808
01:56:55,320 --> 01:56:59,200
Speaker 1: put cigarettes out on you, and uh some didn't make

1809
01:56:59,240 --> 01:57:01,840
Speaker 1: it out. That's such suation. They like I said, they

1810
01:57:01,960 --> 01:57:04,800
Speaker 1: dropped about court and information. When we got they dropped

1811
01:57:04,920 --> 01:57:08,200
Speaker 1: nineteen and some black men and the brothers in the

1812
01:57:08,240 --> 01:57:11,760
Speaker 1: community got tired of of of these guys, and they

1813
01:57:11,880 --> 01:57:14,440
Speaker 1: broke into a pawn shop and stole all the guns

1814
01:57:14,480 --> 01:57:16,400
Speaker 1: out the powd shop. And there was about to be

1815
01:57:16,480 --> 01:57:19,920
Speaker 1: a major race war. And um, you gotta understand too,

1816
01:57:20,040 --> 01:57:24,480
Speaker 1: how tight the situation was because their base, their house.

1817
01:57:24,560 --> 01:57:28,960
Speaker 1: The day they hung out at their backyard connected with

1818
01:57:29,080 --> 01:57:32,480
Speaker 1: our backyard, so it was extremely tense. So when the

1819
01:57:32,560 --> 01:57:35,120
Speaker 1: brothers broke into the pond shop got the weapons out,

1820
01:57:35,400 --> 01:57:39,080
Speaker 1: just so happened. The next day the National Guards showed up.

1821
01:57:39,560 --> 01:57:41,840
Speaker 1: But if the national Guard didn't show up the next day,

1822
01:57:42,240 --> 01:57:45,960
Speaker 1: it would have been extremely ugly out there. Uh and everything.

1823
01:57:46,080 --> 01:57:47,840
Speaker 1: And yeah, they used to patrol the streets and the

1824
01:57:47,920 --> 01:57:50,880
Speaker 1: pickup trucks. We would see them all the time. I

1825
01:57:50,920 --> 01:57:54,160
Speaker 1: would see them all the time. And they were cowards man,

1826
01:57:54,360 --> 01:57:57,360
Speaker 1: you know. They would tender one. It's always tender one,

1827
01:57:58,120 --> 01:58:02,720
Speaker 1: you know, ten vigilantis the on black man, unharmed black man.

1828
01:58:04,040 --> 01:58:07,440
Speaker 1: But we noticed one they would drive by. We would

1829
01:58:07,480 --> 01:58:10,800
Speaker 1: come out with our weapons on our hips and let

1830
01:58:10,880 --> 01:58:12,760
Speaker 1: them know that this ain't no place to mess with.

1831
01:58:13,000 --> 01:58:14,680
Speaker 1: Keep driving. You know what I'm saying. You will be

1832
01:58:14,800 --> 01:58:17,520
Speaker 1: fired upon you come here with that business. And I

1833
01:58:17,520 --> 01:58:22,000
Speaker 1: would have to set up patrols for our house. At night. UM,

1834
01:58:22,480 --> 01:58:27,520
Speaker 1: I would sleep uh in the hallway and malnks home

1835
01:58:28,360 --> 01:58:30,600
Speaker 1: with a nominal of me to car being rifle strapped

1836
01:58:30,640 --> 01:58:32,800
Speaker 1: across my chest and the radio colm so I could

1837
01:58:32,880 --> 01:58:37,120
Speaker 1: keep in contact with the others who were unarmed and

1838
01:58:37,200 --> 01:58:40,800
Speaker 1: doing patrols, you know, watching the house while the other

1839
01:58:40,880 --> 01:58:44,560
Speaker 1: thirty six volunteers have slept intense in the backyard. You know,

1840
01:58:44,680 --> 01:58:47,640
Speaker 1: we're asleep, Lucky for us. They were a bunch of

1841
01:58:47,760 --> 01:58:50,600
Speaker 1: cowards and they kept it moving. I would see them

1842
01:58:50,600 --> 01:58:54,840
Speaker 1: all the time, and they were they were afraid of

1843
01:58:54,960 --> 01:58:58,440
Speaker 1: me because they knew that I was not afraid of them,

1844
01:58:58,480 --> 01:59:01,760
Speaker 1: and I was armed, and we all when we had

1845
01:59:01,800 --> 01:59:04,880
Speaker 1: a few people back at the house that was armed

1846
01:59:04,880 --> 01:59:10,480
Speaker 1: as well. You could ride down certain streets and there

1847
01:59:10,520 --> 01:59:15,080
Speaker 1: will be uh dead bodies that were bloated, uh from

1848
01:59:15,120 --> 01:59:18,320
Speaker 1: being left out in the sun. And uh those bodies

1849
01:59:18,400 --> 01:59:22,960
Speaker 1: were left by the vigilantees. The rumor was that the

1850
01:59:23,480 --> 01:59:26,640
Speaker 1: do on the police department told the vigilantees. We gave

1851
01:59:26,720 --> 01:59:29,720
Speaker 1: the vigilantees a green light to do what they needed

1852
01:59:29,760 --> 01:59:33,440
Speaker 1: to do and as far as the bodies, just leave

1853
01:59:33,520 --> 01:59:35,320
Speaker 1: them near the gutter and they will come and collect

1854
01:59:35,400 --> 01:59:38,920
Speaker 1: them later, which they didn't. The body stayed out there,

1855
01:59:39,160 --> 01:59:42,120
Speaker 1: I would say up to two months, you know you,

1856
01:59:42,560 --> 01:59:44,240
Speaker 1: I mean, they were like you can see them all

1857
01:59:44,320 --> 01:59:47,160
Speaker 1: the time, and um, there a lot of people had left.

1858
01:59:47,560 --> 01:59:50,560
Speaker 1: There wasn't a lot of people there because people had evacuated,

1859
01:59:50,640 --> 01:59:53,800
Speaker 1: a lot of stray dogs running around uh in pacts

1860
01:59:53,880 --> 01:59:56,000
Speaker 1: of thirty and what we would have to do is

1861
01:59:56,080 --> 01:59:58,640
Speaker 1: get up early in the morning when the curfew was over,

1862
01:59:58,880 --> 02:00:03,200
Speaker 1: take bids she's from malnks mother's room, and go out

1863
02:00:03,360 --> 02:00:06,360
Speaker 1: and wrap up the bodies with these sheets. Keep the

1864
02:00:06,520 --> 02:00:10,000
Speaker 1: dogs from ripping them open for fluid and food. Reporting

1865
02:00:10,040 --> 02:00:13,879
Speaker 1: in the nation in Republica, investigative journalists A. C. Thompson

1866
02:00:14,000 --> 02:00:17,560
Speaker 1: spent months speaking with survivors of Katrina about a racist

1867
02:00:17,640 --> 02:00:21,320
Speaker 1: militia that formed in the predominantly white neighborhood of Algierst Point,

1868
02:00:21,920 --> 02:00:24,240
Speaker 1: who carried out a series of deadly shootings and even

1869
02:00:24,320 --> 02:00:28,160
Speaker 1: worked directly with local law enforcement. White residents told investigators

1870
02:00:28,240 --> 02:00:30,480
Speaker 1: the police had given them a green light to shoot

1871
02:00:30,520 --> 02:00:34,800
Speaker 1: anyone quote breaking into their property and to quote leave

1872
02:00:34,880 --> 02:00:37,640
Speaker 1: the bodies on the side of the road. Others spoke

1873
02:00:37,720 --> 02:00:40,200
Speaker 1: of a free for all of white against black where

1874
02:00:40,280 --> 02:00:44,360
Speaker 1: whites condulged in violence with impunity. Years later, several white

1875
02:00:44,440 --> 02:00:47,560
Speaker 1: vigilanties were found guilty were sentenced to prison time for

1876
02:00:47,680 --> 02:00:52,240
Speaker 1: shootings and murder, and like many modern conspiracy theories pushed

1877
02:00:52,280 --> 02:00:55,000
Speaker 1: by the far Ride about x FI and BLM. During

1878
02:00:55,000 --> 02:00:58,680
Speaker 1: the George Foyd Uprising, the vigilantes and algiers point were

1879
02:00:58,800 --> 02:01:04,440
Speaker 1: largely animated by widespread racist rumors that were nutfounded about leaders. Um.

1880
02:01:04,720 --> 02:01:07,520
Speaker 1: We were harassed a lot by the and OPD. You

1881
02:01:07,600 --> 02:01:10,280
Speaker 1: know a lot of times at gunpoint. They would come

1882
02:01:10,360 --> 02:01:13,840
Speaker 1: to our house sometimes you know, ten cars deep in

1883
02:01:13,920 --> 02:01:17,920
Speaker 1: op D wood and looking for Malink. One night they

1884
02:01:18,000 --> 02:01:20,560
Speaker 1: came through looking for Malink and what we had heard

1885
02:01:20,600 --> 02:01:23,520
Speaker 1: that they were out to assassinate him and anybody with him.

1886
02:01:23,640 --> 02:01:26,440
Speaker 1: They came out looking for Malink one night, about ten

1887
02:01:26,520 --> 02:01:30,120
Speaker 1: cars dep and they had went through the house looking

1888
02:01:30,160 --> 02:01:32,760
Speaker 1: for him, and they couldn't find them. And they pulled

1889
02:01:32,800 --> 02:01:36,320
Speaker 1: out this fourteen year old young man that we had

1890
02:01:36,400 --> 02:01:40,240
Speaker 1: befriended to live on the backstreet for mLink and they

1891
02:01:40,320 --> 02:01:43,080
Speaker 1: started beating him, saying that he had stole the cooler

1892
02:01:43,120 --> 02:01:47,040
Speaker 1: out somebody's yard and minds you, you know, no one's there,

1893
02:01:47,200 --> 02:01:49,160
Speaker 1: so no one's really missing that cool And the young

1894
02:01:49,240 --> 02:01:52,360
Speaker 1: man thought, you know, because we didn't have refrigeration and

1895
02:01:52,440 --> 02:01:55,400
Speaker 1: we hadn't put everything on ice. You know, ice was

1896
02:01:55,640 --> 02:01:58,800
Speaker 1: very important at that time, and the water was very important,

1897
02:01:59,360 --> 02:02:01,400
Speaker 1: you know, along with gasoline. But the young brother brought

1898
02:02:01,480 --> 02:02:04,880
Speaker 1: us a cooler, and the police put shot guards and

1899
02:02:04,920 --> 02:02:07,600
Speaker 1: everybody's stomachs, and they beat them in front of us

1900
02:02:08,200 --> 02:02:10,560
Speaker 1: and dared us to do anything. As far as like

1901
02:02:10,680 --> 02:02:13,080
Speaker 1: what the environment looked like, it was not and I

1902
02:02:13,280 --> 02:02:17,360
Speaker 1: say this, it was not a rescue mission. This was

1903
02:02:17,640 --> 02:02:22,520
Speaker 1: seemed like they were running a drill, a military drill,

1904
02:02:22,880 --> 02:02:24,600
Speaker 1: you know, like the same hour, I mean, like the

1905
02:02:24,680 --> 02:02:27,000
Speaker 1: albat project. You will look at the bridge and you

1906
02:02:27,000 --> 02:02:30,960
Speaker 1: will see continue with military cars going across the cresta

1907
02:02:31,040 --> 02:02:35,040
Speaker 1: city bridge at nighttime. In four corners of the community.

1908
02:02:35,080 --> 02:02:38,080
Speaker 1: You would have black Hawk helicopters patrolling. You know, they

1909
02:02:38,080 --> 02:02:41,680
Speaker 1: will follow you through the yard with spotlights. Also, we

1910
02:02:41,840 --> 02:02:47,240
Speaker 1: had homeland security, which included mercenaries. They were sometimes up

1911
02:02:47,280 --> 02:02:53,160
Speaker 1: to cars and if you were to violate, uh, the curfew,

1912
02:02:53,640 --> 02:02:56,200
Speaker 1: they were ride up on you. And they had these

1913
02:02:56,280 --> 02:02:59,000
Speaker 1: little and I used to have to interact with them

1914
02:02:59,160 --> 02:03:02,440
Speaker 1: because we had some some some young people there. They

1915
02:03:02,480 --> 02:03:05,400
Speaker 1: thought they had privileged from up north would translate in

1916
02:03:05,480 --> 02:03:08,160
Speaker 1: New Orleans, which it did not. Um they've seen any

1917
02:03:08,200 --> 02:03:10,320
Speaker 1: white person outside of New Orleans as a bunch of

1918
02:03:10,760 --> 02:03:13,400
Speaker 1: quote unquote nigga levels. So I would have the negotiate

1919
02:03:13,600 --> 02:03:16,520
Speaker 1: with these homeless security people. UM, you had to be

1920
02:03:16,680 --> 02:03:21,000
Speaker 1: very calm, very still, because you could see the pupils.

1921
02:03:21,160 --> 02:03:24,280
Speaker 1: Their pupils were dilated with small anybody that's been in

1922
02:03:24,440 --> 02:03:28,080
Speaker 1: war like Vietnam and such an Uh, there's a storm

1923
02:03:28,160 --> 02:03:31,040
Speaker 1: they know when these people when the pupils are dilated

1924
02:03:31,120 --> 02:03:34,080
Speaker 1: like that, that means these people have killed several times.

1925
02:03:34,680 --> 02:03:37,840
Speaker 1: And my huncle used to call it a hundred miles there.

1926
02:03:39,120 --> 02:03:41,120
Speaker 1: And you had to be very calm with these people

1927
02:03:41,200 --> 02:03:44,880
Speaker 1: because if you flinched, if you did anything that they

1928
02:03:44,960 --> 02:03:47,760
Speaker 1: didn't like or they felt threatened in any type of way,

1929
02:03:48,200 --> 02:03:50,520
Speaker 1: they will open up fire on you. Um. They were

1930
02:03:50,680 --> 02:03:53,760
Speaker 1: they had a R fifteens. All of them had a

1931
02:03:53,920 --> 02:03:56,760
Speaker 1: R fifteens and not milling me distrapped to their legs.

1932
02:03:57,000 --> 02:03:59,240
Speaker 1: So it was more you know, it's seemed more like

1933
02:03:59,400 --> 02:04:03,040
Speaker 1: a military takeover, like I said before, then ar rescue

1934
02:04:03,280 --> 02:04:06,400
Speaker 1: and further down the line. For in the months, you

1935
02:04:06,520 --> 02:04:12,600
Speaker 1: had National guardsmen that opened fire on people, uh into

1936
02:04:12,720 --> 02:04:17,520
Speaker 1: busy traffic. Um. You will find bodies in the seventh ward,

1937
02:04:17,600 --> 02:04:21,560
Speaker 1: in the eighth ward in different houses, UH with bullets

1938
02:04:21,600 --> 02:04:24,440
Speaker 1: in the back of their head, you know, execution style.

1939
02:04:25,200 --> 02:04:29,120
Speaker 1: And um our investigating team will go out and witness

1940
02:04:29,240 --> 02:04:32,560
Speaker 1: this firsthand, and I was a part of that investigating team.

1941
02:04:33,000 --> 02:04:35,320
Speaker 1: They would do a walk through the house where the

1942
02:04:35,480 --> 02:04:37,760
Speaker 1: body was at. It was shot in the back of

1943
02:04:37,800 --> 02:04:41,360
Speaker 1: the head, and the rumor was, you know, we had

1944
02:04:41,440 --> 02:04:47,040
Speaker 1: some rogue National guardsmen executing you know, people who didn't

1945
02:04:47,080 --> 02:04:51,080
Speaker 1: have homes. We're home some homeless people, you know that

1946
02:04:51,160 --> 02:04:55,920
Speaker 1: were left behind. Number one lesson I learned uma trainer

1947
02:04:56,720 --> 02:04:59,840
Speaker 1: was you may be a pacifist, but you might need

1948
02:04:59,880 --> 02:05:03,440
Speaker 1: to passive fists. You may need to go out and

1949
02:05:03,520 --> 02:05:06,680
Speaker 1: get you firearms. Of course, we want you to get

1950
02:05:06,760 --> 02:05:09,720
Speaker 1: proper training. Of course, we don't want you to do

1951
02:05:09,800 --> 02:05:14,440
Speaker 1: anything illegal. Get your legal firearms and get some training.

1952
02:05:15,400 --> 02:05:21,160
Speaker 1: The second lesson was that human beings are incredible. We

1953
02:05:21,320 --> 02:05:25,520
Speaker 1: saw a lot of destruction, but we also saw a

1954
02:05:25,600 --> 02:05:28,080
Speaker 1: lot of beauty and a lot of love. In my

1955
02:05:28,200 --> 02:05:32,600
Speaker 1: experience too, we were common ground. People came together in days,

1956
02:05:33,920 --> 02:05:36,760
Speaker 1: and we fell in love with each other within days.

1957
02:05:37,520 --> 02:05:40,680
Speaker 1: Because of the pressure of the situation. If we didn't

1958
02:05:40,720 --> 02:05:44,560
Speaker 1: love each other, if we didn't get along with one another,

1959
02:05:45,200 --> 02:05:49,160
Speaker 1: we had to, you know, in order for survival. Things

1960
02:05:49,200 --> 02:05:52,520
Speaker 1: were so bad that if your car had broken down

1961
02:05:52,640 --> 02:05:55,360
Speaker 1: on the side of the highway on the road you

1962
02:05:55,960 --> 02:05:59,000
Speaker 1: had to call us and five different vehicles will be

1963
02:05:59,080 --> 02:06:02,920
Speaker 1: speeding to your low cases. Um, you know to see

1964
02:06:02,920 --> 02:06:06,840
Speaker 1: who we'll get there first before Homeland Security or a

1965
02:06:06,960 --> 02:06:09,960
Speaker 1: vigilante group will roll up on you. You can't rely

1966
02:06:10,080 --> 02:06:14,200
Speaker 1: on the state. Can't rely on the state. Stay with

1967
02:06:14,400 --> 02:06:16,840
Speaker 1: us as it could happen. Here returns after the short

1968
02:06:16,920 --> 02:06:23,120
Speaker 1: break and a word from our sponsors. The same year

1969
02:06:23,200 --> 02:06:27,080
Speaker 1: that Sinceria was facing down armed racist vigilantes in New Orleans,

1970
02:06:27,440 --> 02:06:30,320
Speaker 1: the stage was also set for an uprising to kick

1971
02:06:30,400 --> 02:06:34,440
Speaker 1: off in Toledo, Ohio. In our next interview, Tom tells

1972
02:06:34,520 --> 02:06:38,400
Speaker 1: us how a largely black community an archists affiliated with

1973
02:06:38,480 --> 02:06:42,200
Speaker 1: anti racist action hit the streets against the National Socialist

1974
02:06:42,240 --> 02:06:46,600
Speaker 1: Movement for the NSM and participated in uprising that exploded

1975
02:06:46,960 --> 02:06:49,800
Speaker 1: not just against the neo Nazis, but the police that

1976
02:06:49,880 --> 02:06:53,760
Speaker 1: were protecting them as well. The Toledo anti racism protests

1977
02:06:54,640 --> 02:06:59,120
Speaker 1: really began when a National Socialist Movement member who was

1978
02:06:59,160 --> 02:07:02,920
Speaker 1: living in a black neighborhood in Toledo pulled a gun

1979
02:07:03,160 --> 02:07:05,680
Speaker 1: on two black children that were playing in the alley

1980
02:07:05,720 --> 02:07:08,120
Speaker 1: behind his house. Um. Those kids then went home and

1981
02:07:08,160 --> 02:07:10,520
Speaker 1: told their parents. Their parents then showed up to his

1982
02:07:10,680 --> 02:07:13,120
Speaker 1: house with weapons. The guy pulled a gun on them

1983
02:07:13,280 --> 02:07:15,960
Speaker 1: and then called the National Socialist Movement, who then showed up.

1984
02:07:16,240 --> 02:07:18,640
Speaker 1: And so they had been This is back when Bill

1985
02:07:18,680 --> 02:07:20,720
Speaker 1: White was still the head of ns M and NSM

1986
02:07:20,800 --> 02:07:22,800
Speaker 1: was actually starting to make some headway, like they were

1987
02:07:22,840 --> 02:07:26,600
Speaker 1: growing really quickly. They targeted Ohio as a recruiting ground

1988
02:07:27,080 --> 02:07:28,720
Speaker 1: UM because they thought that they could gain a lot

1989
02:07:28,720 --> 02:07:30,760
Speaker 1: of membership there, and so Toledo was kind of their

1990
02:07:30,800 --> 02:07:33,160
Speaker 1: first foray into trying to do stuff in Ohio. And

1991
02:07:33,320 --> 02:07:36,000
Speaker 1: so they announced a date and the organizers on the

1992
02:07:36,040 --> 02:07:39,400
Speaker 1: ground and Toledo did something really interesting. Then instead of

1993
02:07:40,120 --> 02:07:44,680
Speaker 1: organizing activists, they went and organized in the community directly

1994
02:07:44,840 --> 02:07:46,640
Speaker 1: UM that they were going around the streets talking to people.

1995
02:07:47,160 --> 02:07:49,640
Speaker 1: Street gangs were calling truces for the day, right, and

1996
02:07:49,720 --> 02:07:52,240
Speaker 1: so when October fifteenth rolled around, like everybody showed up,

1997
02:07:52,480 --> 02:07:54,600
Speaker 1: like there were anarchists there, but there were like tons

1998
02:07:54,640 --> 02:07:57,080
Speaker 1: of people from the neighborhood there. The whole protest didn't

1999
02:07:57,160 --> 02:08:00,320
Speaker 1: last very long. It was this is October fifteenth and five.

2000
02:08:00,400 --> 02:08:02,080
Speaker 1: They sort of n s M was there and they

2001
02:08:02,120 --> 02:08:05,000
Speaker 1: had their shields and people were hooking stuff at them,

2002
02:08:05,000 --> 02:08:06,760
Speaker 1: but they were kind of too far away to really

2003
02:08:07,000 --> 02:08:10,200
Speaker 1: like hit. So the cops started surrounding them and allowing

2004
02:08:10,240 --> 02:08:12,320
Speaker 1: them to mark and as they were marching, they got

2005
02:08:12,400 --> 02:08:16,240
Speaker 1: within projectile range of people and then started pelting them

2006
02:08:16,280 --> 02:08:18,320
Speaker 1: with everything that they could think of. The cops and

2007
02:08:18,400 --> 02:08:21,000
Speaker 1: got them to run, got the Nazis to run so

2008
02:08:21,120 --> 02:08:23,000
Speaker 1: they could kind of try and get them out of

2009
02:08:23,040 --> 02:08:25,680
Speaker 1: the area. A group of people sort of cut back

2010
02:08:25,760 --> 02:08:28,360
Speaker 1: behind the school trying and cut them off. I got

2011
02:08:28,440 --> 02:08:31,240
Speaker 1: tear gased, and when the tear gas flew, everything just

2012
02:08:32,240 --> 02:08:34,320
Speaker 1: got set off. There was rioting on and off for

2013
02:08:34,400 --> 02:08:36,560
Speaker 1: like three days in this neighborhood. After this, a bar

2014
02:08:36,720 --> 02:08:39,080
Speaker 1: owned by a cop got burned, got looted, and then

2015
02:08:39,120 --> 02:08:41,520
Speaker 1: burned to the ground. People trying to burn this Nazi's

2016
02:08:41,520 --> 02:08:44,360
Speaker 1: house down. They had to declare state of emergency over this.

2017
02:08:44,800 --> 02:08:46,160
Speaker 1: And so there are a number of things that were

2018
02:08:46,160 --> 02:08:48,720
Speaker 1: really important about that day. I think for for us,

2019
02:08:49,120 --> 02:08:53,480
Speaker 1: one was it really did point to the effectiveness of

2020
02:08:54,040 --> 02:08:57,040
Speaker 1: community anti fascist work. People that neighborhood were already mad,

2021
02:08:57,320 --> 02:08:59,840
Speaker 1: but it was this sort of like mobilization work which

2022
02:08:59,880 --> 02:09:01,600
Speaker 1: was down by people in the neighborhood and also done

2023
02:09:01,640 --> 02:09:03,880
Speaker 1: by kind of anarchists that were down in the neighborhood

2024
02:09:03,920 --> 02:09:07,280
Speaker 1: working with people to really make that what it was right,

2025
02:09:07,400 --> 02:09:10,080
Speaker 1: And it really showed what a community can do when

2026
02:09:10,880 --> 02:09:12,600
Speaker 1: Nazis show up in their name, and how much a

2027
02:09:12,640 --> 02:09:16,160
Speaker 1: community can reassert its ownership over their space when the

2028
02:09:16,200 --> 02:09:18,800
Speaker 1: police decided to protect the Nazis that are attacking their neighborhood.

2029
02:09:19,040 --> 02:09:21,560
Speaker 1: But the other thing that really demonstrated that it really

2030
02:09:21,640 --> 02:09:24,360
Speaker 1: kind of created was it created a dynamic in Ohio

2031
02:09:24,800 --> 02:09:26,840
Speaker 1: which had been sort of building for a little while,

2032
02:09:27,400 --> 02:09:29,440
Speaker 1: but you can kind of still feel the ramifications of it.

2033
02:09:29,720 --> 02:09:32,600
Speaker 1: So starting with the over the Rhine riots, which I

2034
02:09:32,600 --> 02:09:34,560
Speaker 1: think we're in two thousand three or two thousand one,

2035
02:09:34,760 --> 02:09:37,240
Speaker 1: when the Cincinnati police killed Timothy Thomas, there had kind

2036
02:09:37,280 --> 02:09:41,840
Speaker 1: of been this escalating series of you know, tensions with

2037
02:09:42,280 --> 02:09:44,760
Speaker 1: with the state around this period of time. It's also

2038
02:09:44,800 --> 02:09:46,440
Speaker 1: the period of time that a lot of Ohio cities

2039
02:09:46,520 --> 02:09:50,120
Speaker 1: were sort of beginning. They're the really cute period of

2040
02:09:50,160 --> 02:09:52,440
Speaker 1: their decline that they had been sort of declining for

2041
02:09:52,480 --> 02:09:54,440
Speaker 1: a while, but this is really when things got bad.

2042
02:09:54,880 --> 02:09:57,240
Speaker 1: It was starting really like the early two thousands, mid

2043
02:09:57,280 --> 02:10:01,400
Speaker 1: two thousand's um the financial collapse in Cleveland, for example,

2044
02:10:01,480 --> 02:10:04,640
Speaker 1: was in two thousand six, um. But it had already

2045
02:10:04,680 --> 02:10:07,200
Speaker 1: been sort of going for a couple of years before that,

2046
02:10:08,160 --> 02:10:10,600
Speaker 1: and so there were these political conditions that were in

2047
02:10:10,680 --> 02:10:13,879
Speaker 1: place that facilitated this. But this also kind of created

2048
02:10:13,960 --> 02:10:18,640
Speaker 1: a dynamic of confrontation with the state and created a

2049
02:10:18,720 --> 02:10:23,680
Speaker 1: mentality within anarchist communities about being really realistic about what

2050
02:10:23,760 --> 02:10:27,480
Speaker 1: those confrontations look like. UM that instead of being idealistic

2051
02:10:27,800 --> 02:10:29,320
Speaker 1: sort of like people were in the anti war movement

2052
02:10:29,600 --> 02:10:34,600
Speaker 1: and um, sort of approaching police from a perspective of

2053
02:10:34,720 --> 02:10:38,400
Speaker 1: ideas and discourse, what we learned during those days is

2054
02:10:38,440 --> 02:10:40,880
Speaker 1: that we should probably approach the police as a logistical

2055
02:10:40,960 --> 02:10:43,840
Speaker 1: force and understand them as such. Um. It was after

2056
02:10:43,920 --> 02:10:46,800
Speaker 1: that point that people really started researching police tactics in

2057
02:10:46,880 --> 02:10:48,880
Speaker 1: this area of the country, and that has had really

2058
02:10:48,960 --> 02:10:52,840
Speaker 1: profound impacts over the last fifteen years. Right. It really

2059
02:10:52,880 --> 02:10:55,480
Speaker 1: did create an entire culture of really digging into those

2060
02:10:55,520 --> 02:10:57,880
Speaker 1: kinds of things very carefully and doing it in a

2061
02:10:57,960 --> 02:11:01,960
Speaker 1: way which wasn't bombastic, but was focused on actual research.

2062
02:11:02,320 --> 02:11:04,400
Speaker 1: The reason that that could happen was what went down

2063
02:11:04,640 --> 02:11:07,200
Speaker 1: on those days was so intense. UM. It was the

2064
02:11:07,240 --> 02:11:10,000
Speaker 1: first time a lot of people had experienced like full

2065
02:11:10,080 --> 02:11:15,520
Speaker 1: blown major rioting before and like major large scale urban

2066
02:11:15,560 --> 02:11:20,120
Speaker 1: writing before, and it definitely changed a lot about the

2067
02:11:20,160 --> 02:11:22,400
Speaker 1: way that anarchists in this area of the country approached

2068
02:11:22,400 --> 02:11:26,280
Speaker 1: things um and you can still feel the the ramifications

2069
02:11:26,320 --> 02:11:28,920
Speaker 1: the ripple effects of that today. Stay with us. We're

2070
02:11:28,920 --> 02:11:30,960
Speaker 1: gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back

2071
02:11:31,160 --> 02:11:37,360
Speaker 1: after these words from our sponsors. In our last segment,

2072
02:11:37,600 --> 02:11:40,400
Speaker 1: we're going to speak to anti fascist researcher and author

2073
02:11:40,600 --> 02:11:44,640
Speaker 1: Spencer Sunshine. But first, let's rewind the clock to when

2074
02:11:44,680 --> 02:11:47,800
Speaker 1: Trump first came in as president in two thousand seventeen,

2075
02:11:48,320 --> 02:11:53,040
Speaker 1: kicking off riots, walkouts, and protests around the country, and

2076
02:11:53,200 --> 02:11:56,920
Speaker 1: grey protests soon spilled into airports. His people in the

2077
02:11:57,000 --> 02:12:00,480
Speaker 1: tens of thousands took action to defeat the Muslim band Um.

2078
02:12:00,520 --> 02:12:03,800
Speaker 1: February second, a massive riot kicked off at you see

2079
02:12:03,880 --> 02:12:08,200
Speaker 1: Berkeley against the far right troll Milo Napolis, shutting down

2080
02:12:08,320 --> 02:12:11,520
Speaker 1: his scheduled talk. The far right responded by holding a

2081
02:12:11,640 --> 02:12:15,080
Speaker 1: series of free speech rallies throughout the summer, and anti

2082
02:12:15,200 --> 02:12:18,520
Speaker 1: fascists soon found themselves out flanked in the streets by

2083
02:12:18,560 --> 02:12:22,600
Speaker 1: a loose coalition of militia members, Proud Boys, Neo Nazis,

2084
02:12:22,720 --> 02:12:25,640
Speaker 1: and Alt right groups seeking to seize on this moment.

2085
02:12:25,920 --> 02:12:28,600
Speaker 1: The White Nashal swing of the movement called for another

2086
02:12:28,720 --> 02:12:31,760
Speaker 1: free speech rally in Charlesville, Virginia, and the scene was

2087
02:12:31,880 --> 02:12:36,400
Speaker 1: set for historic and deadly showdown. It was pretty clear,

2088
02:12:36,720 --> 02:12:39,760
Speaker 1: especially as the run up to it happened, about how

2089
02:12:39,880 --> 02:12:42,360
Speaker 1: big it was going to be, how many different kinds

2090
02:12:42,400 --> 02:12:45,080
Speaker 1: of groups were going to be involved, and that for

2091
02:12:45,320 --> 02:12:49,839
Speaker 1: the first time, although there had been increasing mobilizations throughout

2092
02:12:49,880 --> 02:12:51,480
Speaker 1: the year especially, it was the first one that was

2093
02:12:51,520 --> 02:12:54,520
Speaker 1: gonna be led by open fascists. Some of the other

2094
02:12:54,600 --> 02:12:56,960
Speaker 1: ones fascists participated in them, but there were more a

2095
02:12:57,040 --> 02:12:59,840
Speaker 1: pan far right. We were like pan far right events

2096
02:12:59,880 --> 02:13:02,080
Speaker 1: like what happened in Berkeley, but this one was going

2097
02:13:02,120 --> 02:13:04,040
Speaker 1: to be led by fascists, and they were all those

2098
02:13:04,080 --> 02:13:06,160
Speaker 1: many different kinds of groups, and they were coming out

2099
02:13:06,160 --> 02:13:08,480
Speaker 1: of the woodwork. We had old activists who had been

2100
02:13:08,480 --> 02:13:11,080
Speaker 1: around in the eighties um who stated they were going

2101
02:13:11,120 --> 02:13:13,400
Speaker 1: to come, and there was clearly a lot of energy

2102
02:13:13,480 --> 02:13:16,240
Speaker 1: behind it, and it seemed like it was the big bid,

2103
02:13:16,480 --> 02:13:18,760
Speaker 1: and there were some of the participants were openly saying

2104
02:13:18,800 --> 02:13:21,400
Speaker 1: this it was gonna be the big bid for power

2105
02:13:21,480 --> 02:13:24,000
Speaker 1: and legitimacy of the ault right. I believe it was

2106
02:13:24,120 --> 02:13:27,400
Speaker 1: Richard Spencer who said, or Matthew Hibeck. I forget which

2107
02:13:27,400 --> 02:13:29,960
Speaker 1: one actually said, there's gonna be before Charlotte's Ville and

2108
02:13:30,120 --> 02:13:32,840
Speaker 1: after Charlotte's Bille, which was true, but not in the

2109
02:13:32,880 --> 02:13:35,360
Speaker 1: way that they hoped for. I think it was a

2110
02:13:35,560 --> 02:13:39,680
Speaker 1: success for anti fascists and other people who wanted the

2111
02:13:39,720 --> 02:13:44,240
Speaker 1: ault right to wanted that inertia to stop and eventually

2112
02:13:44,920 --> 02:13:49,720
Speaker 1: end um. But it was not a success I think

2113
02:13:49,800 --> 02:13:52,280
Speaker 1: in the way that people wanted it to be or

2114
02:13:52,480 --> 02:13:55,200
Speaker 1: think about it um as a success. It could have

2115
02:13:55,560 --> 02:13:58,560
Speaker 1: it was. It could have been a failure very easily

2116
02:13:59,040 --> 02:14:03,080
Speaker 1: after the event. The event itself was fairly neutral. I mean,

2117
02:14:03,160 --> 02:14:06,160
Speaker 1: there was all the fighting that is in people's minds

2118
02:14:06,240 --> 02:14:08,480
Speaker 1: that all happened before the rally was supposed to start.

2119
02:14:08,840 --> 02:14:10,880
Speaker 1: That was kind of a draw, which certainly was not

2120
02:14:11,000 --> 02:14:14,080
Speaker 1: a success that anti fascists stopped the rally. They did not.

2121
02:14:14,560 --> 02:14:17,280
Speaker 1: It did not stop people from entering into the rally grounds.

2122
02:14:17,760 --> 02:14:21,560
Speaker 1: The police dispersed it before the rally itself actually started,

2123
02:14:21,640 --> 02:14:24,320
Speaker 1: so that can be seen as a success. And then

2124
02:14:24,360 --> 02:14:26,720
Speaker 1: the car attack, of course was well in some ways

2125
02:14:26,720 --> 02:14:29,040
Speaker 1: a failure for us, and I think at the very beginning,

2126
02:14:29,200 --> 02:14:32,040
Speaker 1: many of the fascists, you know, were excited about it,

2127
02:14:32,200 --> 02:14:34,560
Speaker 1: like it really did add to their inertia, and the

2128
02:14:34,600 --> 02:14:36,960
Speaker 1: whole thing could have been forgotten about very quickly, in

2129
02:14:37,120 --> 02:14:39,400
Speaker 1: which case I think it then would have been seen

2130
02:14:39,480 --> 02:14:43,560
Speaker 1: as a success for the fascists. If people remember the

2131
02:14:43,640 --> 02:14:47,040
Speaker 1: first when it happened, Trump immediately was like, nazis bad.

2132
02:14:47,720 --> 02:14:50,480
Speaker 1: And then the next day he made his very fine

2133
02:14:50,520 --> 02:14:53,920
Speaker 1: people on both sides comment, and this is what energized

2134
02:14:54,320 --> 02:14:58,320
Speaker 1: liberals essentially to condemn him and to jump on the

2135
02:14:58,400 --> 02:15:01,240
Speaker 1: bandwagon against him. If he had and said that, this

2136
02:15:01,320 --> 02:15:03,000
Speaker 1: could have just sort of passed out of the public

2137
02:15:03,080 --> 02:15:05,760
Speaker 1: eye very easily, and it be seen, at least by

2138
02:15:05,840 --> 02:15:09,800
Speaker 1: fascists that anti fascists were unable to mobilize enough people

2139
02:15:09,840 --> 02:15:12,600
Speaker 1: to stop them, you know, and the only stopping of

2140
02:15:12,680 --> 02:15:15,400
Speaker 1: them only happened because the police did it. So I

2141
02:15:15,480 --> 02:15:18,480
Speaker 1: think it could have easily been a draw or neutral

2142
02:15:18,720 --> 02:15:22,080
Speaker 1: or a failure without Trump's comments. It did end up

2143
02:15:22,120 --> 02:15:26,200
Speaker 1: being success because of this backlash against them. It did,

2144
02:15:26,520 --> 02:15:29,520
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, did finally bring it to the consciousness

2145
02:15:29,680 --> 02:15:33,400
Speaker 1: of people that um this huge rising in the far

2146
02:15:33,560 --> 02:15:36,520
Speaker 1: right that Trump had engendered. What it really meant how

2147
02:15:36,640 --> 02:15:38,600
Speaker 1: violent it was really going to be, what a threat

2148
02:15:38,680 --> 02:15:42,160
Speaker 1: it really was, and it did motivate people two and

2149
02:15:42,240 --> 02:15:44,680
Speaker 1: the and the aftermath in particular. Unfortunately, this sort of

2150
02:15:44,720 --> 02:15:47,640
Speaker 1: went away fairly quickly to take the streets and come

2151
02:15:47,640 --> 02:15:49,920
Speaker 1: out in big numbers and condemned. The alt right, and

2152
02:15:50,040 --> 02:15:53,360
Speaker 1: the fascist wing of the right did collapse fairly soon afterwards,

2153
02:15:53,440 --> 02:15:56,240
Speaker 1: by spring of the next year. Charlottesvill was real interesting

2154
02:15:56,400 --> 02:15:59,040
Speaker 1: because people had been killed by the ult right before it,

2155
02:15:59,400 --> 02:16:02,920
Speaker 1: but not in such a dramatic manner, not in public

2156
02:16:02,960 --> 02:16:05,040
Speaker 1: and not on video. And it was sort of like,

2157
02:16:05,200 --> 02:16:07,120
Speaker 1: I think for people, and I've said this before, I

2158
02:16:07,240 --> 02:16:09,640
Speaker 1: kind of you remember the first murders, you remember the

2159
02:16:09,720 --> 02:16:12,120
Speaker 1: first blood, and in that sense, because afterwards a lot

2160
02:16:12,160 --> 02:16:15,080
Speaker 1: of people were killed during the Trump administration and car attacks.

2161
02:16:15,200 --> 02:16:17,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I think a few dozen people during the

2162
02:16:17,520 --> 02:16:21,400
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter demonstrations. It became almost wrote where you're like, oh,

2163
02:16:21,520 --> 02:16:24,800
Speaker 1: someone was killed at a demonstration again. But it was

2164
02:16:24,920 --> 02:16:26,840
Speaker 1: the shock of this at first, because this had not

2165
02:16:26,960 --> 02:16:29,720
Speaker 1: been seen for a very long time in the United States,

2166
02:16:29,760 --> 02:16:32,760
Speaker 1: that someone would be murdered at a demonstration, um, and

2167
02:16:32,920 --> 02:16:35,200
Speaker 1: that really sort of stuck with people and in that

2168
02:16:35,320 --> 02:16:38,320
Speaker 1: way it became a symbol. Um you can even today

2169
02:16:38,440 --> 02:16:42,200
Speaker 1: still say Charlottesville unless people are you know, teenagers or something,

2170
02:16:42,320 --> 02:16:46,039
Speaker 1: don't remember, people know what you're talking about. Biden invoked

2171
02:16:46,120 --> 02:16:49,119
Speaker 1: it when he was running for president. So it's good

2172
02:16:49,280 --> 02:16:53,000
Speaker 1: it remains as a symbol of how big the really

2173
02:16:53,040 --> 02:16:57,000
Speaker 1: really far right, you know, the fascists can become quite quickly,

2174
02:16:57,560 --> 02:17:01,320
Speaker 1: and how violent and murderers they are, and so that

2175
02:17:01,480 --> 02:17:04,360
Speaker 1: remains is as symbol to people, I think, and frankly

2176
02:17:04,400 --> 02:17:06,920
Speaker 1: that there can be resistance to it. Like people also

2177
02:17:07,040 --> 02:17:10,360
Speaker 1: saw there was real resistance and people were willing to

2178
02:17:10,480 --> 02:17:13,800
Speaker 1: fight them, and especially after one six like there's no

2179
02:17:13,920 --> 02:17:16,760
Speaker 1: more of this idiotic discourse. Bet if it's okay to

2180
02:17:16,800 --> 02:17:19,160
Speaker 1: punch and nazi, I really think most people do think

2181
02:17:19,160 --> 02:17:21,720
Speaker 1: it's okay now, you know, after they've seen what unfolded

2182
02:17:21,800 --> 02:17:24,960
Speaker 1: under the entire arc of Trump from Charlotte'sville to the

2183
02:17:25,120 --> 02:17:27,560
Speaker 1: capital takeover. If people had stayed at home, if there

2184
02:17:27,640 --> 02:17:30,280
Speaker 1: wasn't the allart the mobile zathent that did occur, it

2185
02:17:30,320 --> 02:17:32,120
Speaker 1: would have been a total victory for them. They would

2186
02:17:32,120 --> 02:17:33,880
Speaker 1: have taken it as a total victory and then moved

2187
02:17:33,920 --> 02:17:36,519
Speaker 1: on to the next thing. And tried something bigger. Absolutely,

2188
02:17:36,760 --> 02:17:39,440
Speaker 1: if you held a demonstration and a thousand people came,

2189
02:17:39,640 --> 02:17:41,480
Speaker 1: you know, wouldn't you be and you did your thing,

2190
02:17:41,600 --> 02:17:43,760
Speaker 1: wouldn't you be like cool? Like, let's move on to

2191
02:17:43,840 --> 02:17:46,280
Speaker 1: the next thing that was successful. Over the years and

2192
02:17:46,560 --> 02:17:48,840
Speaker 1: I've done more and more activism, I come to realize

2193
02:17:48,920 --> 02:17:52,440
Speaker 1: what nothing succeeds as success means, Like once you start going,

2194
02:17:52,920 --> 02:17:55,360
Speaker 1: when something succeeds, more people come to it, and you

2195
02:17:55,440 --> 02:17:57,600
Speaker 1: can move on and move on as a bigger thing

2196
02:17:57,720 --> 02:17:59,320
Speaker 1: and be able to do things you weren't able to

2197
02:17:59,360 --> 02:18:01,680
Speaker 1: do before. So this is why I always say we

2198
02:18:01,760 --> 02:18:03,720
Speaker 1: need to confront people. We have to break their movement.

2199
02:18:03,760 --> 02:18:06,600
Speaker 1: We can't let it jump from either success to success

2200
02:18:06,800 --> 02:18:10,160
Speaker 1: or just simply not a failure. Because if you're already

2201
02:18:10,200 --> 02:18:12,120
Speaker 1: moving and you hit something that's not a failure, you'll

2202
02:18:12,200 --> 02:18:14,120
Speaker 1: just go on to the next thing. Nothing will stop you.

2203
02:18:14,280 --> 02:18:17,920
Speaker 1: And we need to need these things to stop. The

2204
02:18:18,080 --> 02:18:21,279
Speaker 1: night of Heather Higher was murdered, thousands hit the streets

2205
02:18:21,320 --> 02:18:25,519
Speaker 1: and cities across the United States, tearing down Confederate statues

2206
02:18:25,800 --> 02:18:29,320
Speaker 1: and marching in solidarity. A few weeks later, when far

2207
02:18:29,440 --> 02:18:32,560
Speaker 1: right activists tried to hold a rally in Boston, over

2208
02:18:32,720 --> 02:18:36,360
Speaker 1: forty hit the streets to shut it down. A week later,

2209
02:18:36,520 --> 02:18:40,280
Speaker 1: in San Francisco and Berkeley, tens of thousands of march

2210
02:18:40,560 --> 02:18:45,080
Speaker 1: to shut down more alright rallies. In Berkeley, a black

2211
02:18:45,160 --> 02:18:49,120
Speaker 1: block of several hundred strong march information as part of

2212
02:18:49,160 --> 02:18:53,560
Speaker 1: a wider anti racist coalition, pushing both far right activists

2213
02:18:53,920 --> 02:18:57,440
Speaker 1: and heavily armed riot police out of a downtown park.

2214
02:18:57,840 --> 02:19:01,240
Speaker 1: Were only months before far right activists had driven out

2215
02:19:01,360 --> 02:19:04,600
Speaker 1: anti fascists. The events of the first eight months of

2216
02:19:04,640 --> 02:19:08,600
Speaker 1: the Trump administration showed that there was mass militant opposition

2217
02:19:08,680 --> 02:19:11,080
Speaker 1: on the streets of the US against the far right,

2218
02:19:11,360 --> 02:19:14,880
Speaker 1: which destabilized the Trump regime and made it back pedal.

2219
02:19:15,280 --> 02:19:18,360
Speaker 1: But more importantly, it showed millions of people across the

2220
02:19:18,440 --> 02:19:22,440
Speaker 1: country the resistance was possible. That is going to do

2221
02:19:22,520 --> 02:19:25,080
Speaker 1: it for us today follow i g D at It's

2222
02:19:25,120 --> 02:19:27,720
Speaker 1: going Down dot org and on masodon at i g

2223
02:19:27,879 --> 02:19:31,040
Speaker 1: D Underscore News. Thanks so much for tuning in and

2224
02:19:31,160 --> 02:19:33,480
Speaker 1: be sure to come back next time as it could

2225
02:19:33,520 --> 02:19:36,440
Speaker 1: happen here returns. We will continue to tread where we

2226
02:19:36,560 --> 02:19:49,320
Speaker 1: please into the fascist No passan Hi have one, It's

2227
02:19:49,360 --> 02:19:52,080
Speaker 1: meet James and just before we start today we're going

2228
02:19:52,120 --> 02:19:56,320
Speaker 1: to discuss in quite some detail the being to death

2229
02:19:56,480 --> 02:20:00,280
Speaker 1: of Tyry Nichols by the police in Memphis. And if

2230
02:20:00,360 --> 02:20:02,600
Speaker 1: you don't want to hear that detail, that's totally fine,

2231
02:20:02,680 --> 02:20:05,000
Speaker 1: But we wanted to let you know now so that

2232
02:20:05,160 --> 02:20:08,119
Speaker 1: you didn't get surprised by it and your money commute

2233
02:20:08,200 --> 02:20:09,680
Speaker 1: or whatever. So if you want to skip this one,

2234
02:20:09,720 --> 02:20:12,560
Speaker 1: if you don't listen to that one, then we are

2235
02:20:12,640 --> 02:20:21,760
Speaker 1: trying to give you that warning ahead of time. Discourse discourse.

2236
02:20:22,680 --> 02:20:27,119
Speaker 1: Discourse is about podcast. I don't know it could happen.

2237
02:20:27,240 --> 02:20:32,280
Speaker 1: Here is the podcast that you're listening to. Uh. If

2238
02:20:32,400 --> 02:20:36,040
Speaker 1: you came here list looking for another podcast, then you

2239
02:20:36,200 --> 02:20:38,240
Speaker 1: fucked up, But you sucked up in a good way

2240
02:20:38,640 --> 02:20:42,840
Speaker 1: because that podcast was trash. Thank you for being here

2241
02:20:42,879 --> 02:20:46,879
Speaker 1: with us today. Who all? Who all? Who? Who? Who's here?

2242
02:20:46,920 --> 02:20:50,920
Speaker 1: Who are you people? We're a little unsure. Yeah, I'm

2243
02:20:50,959 --> 02:20:55,640
Speaker 1: the along, I'm here. Wow, I'm I'm James. I'm a

2244
02:20:55,640 --> 02:20:57,720
Speaker 1: little unsure about who I am beyond that, but that's

2245
02:20:57,760 --> 02:21:01,280
Speaker 1: who I am. It's okay. I'm Garrison Davis and I'm

2246
02:21:01,320 --> 02:21:04,440
Speaker 1: here to engage in discourse. I there's nothing I love

2247
02:21:05,080 --> 02:21:09,240
Speaker 1: more than discourse. Um. Speaking of discourse. Today we're gonna

2248
02:21:09,280 --> 02:21:14,240
Speaker 1: be talking about, well, I don't know, it's not really discourse,

2249
02:21:14,480 --> 02:21:17,200
Speaker 1: but today we're gonna be talking about the reaction to

2250
02:21:17,879 --> 02:21:23,560
Speaker 1: the video of the Memphis police murdering Tyrene Nichols. In particularly,

2251
02:21:24,000 --> 02:21:27,320
Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about the way in which kind

2252
02:21:27,360 --> 02:21:31,119
Speaker 1: of the left responded to this, both online and kind

2253
02:21:31,160 --> 02:21:34,520
Speaker 1: of public channels and actually in the streets, because I

2254
02:21:34,600 --> 02:21:37,760
Speaker 1: think there's some interesting stuff here, um, and I think

2255
02:21:37,800 --> 02:21:41,080
Speaker 1: it's kind of worth analyzing outside of uh, you know,

2256
02:21:41,200 --> 02:21:45,200
Speaker 1: the broader conversation about police violence and you know, uh

2257
02:21:45,720 --> 02:21:48,240
Speaker 1: that sort of thing, because I think there's some interesting,

2258
02:21:48,360 --> 02:21:52,880
Speaker 1: sort of tactical stuff to kind of talk about here. UM.

2259
02:21:53,320 --> 02:21:56,000
Speaker 1: And yeah, that's that's that's what we're going to be

2260
02:21:56,080 --> 02:22:00,240
Speaker 1: doing today. UM. In case you've been kind of stuck

2261
02:22:00,280 --> 02:22:02,920
Speaker 1: under a rock, uh, you should probably be aware that

2262
02:22:03,080 --> 02:22:08,160
Speaker 1: on January seven, police from the Memphis p D Scorpion Unit,

2263
02:22:08,280 --> 02:22:11,480
Speaker 1: which was a unit with a very sinister name that

2264
02:22:11,600 --> 02:22:16,920
Speaker 1: existed to effectively over police UM a chunk of the

2265
02:22:17,000 --> 02:22:21,640
Speaker 1: city of Memphis. Uh yeah, UM, pulled over Tyree Nichols,

2266
02:22:21,720 --> 02:22:24,880
Speaker 1: a twenty nine year old black man. Uh. Tyree was

2267
02:22:24,959 --> 02:22:30,880
Speaker 1: an amateur photographer. UM. He liked skating, he had Crohn's disease. UM,

2268
02:22:31,120 --> 02:22:34,600
Speaker 1: he was just driving around that night. UH. And the encounter,

2269
02:22:35,080 --> 02:22:37,480
Speaker 1: as we would later see on the video, went pretty

2270
02:22:37,560 --> 02:22:40,720
Speaker 1: much immediately violent on behalf of the police. Nichols was

2271
02:22:40,800 --> 02:22:43,400
Speaker 1: beaten very badly. UH. And he died in the hospital

2272
02:22:43,480 --> 02:22:46,360
Speaker 1: three days later. And for the first few days after

2273
02:22:46,440 --> 02:22:49,760
Speaker 1: the killing, obviously, you know this happened, the police did this,

2274
02:22:50,040 --> 02:22:52,920
Speaker 1: and then rumors started kind of spreading in the immediate

2275
02:22:53,040 --> 02:22:55,440
Speaker 1: wake of the beating, but very little was known for

2276
02:22:55,520 --> 02:22:59,600
Speaker 1: certain about like what had happened, UM, about you know what,

2277
02:23:00,280 --> 02:23:04,240
Speaker 1: why this had had gotten escalated so quickly. UM. One

2278
02:23:04,280 --> 02:23:06,920
Speaker 1: of the first kind of signs that this was going

2279
02:23:07,000 --> 02:23:10,560
Speaker 1: to become a thing on the national uh in terms

2280
02:23:10,600 --> 02:23:13,440
Speaker 1: of like the national attention span, was when the Tennessee

2281
02:23:13,560 --> 02:23:16,040
Speaker 1: Bureau of Investigation in the U. S. Department of Justice

2282
02:23:16,160 --> 02:23:21,119
Speaker 1: independently opened investigations into the beating. UM after reviewing body

2283
02:23:21,160 --> 02:23:24,880
Speaker 1: camera footage from multiple officers on scene. Five Memphis p

2284
02:23:25,000 --> 02:23:28,680
Speaker 1: D officers were dismissed on January. Three days later, an

2285
02:23:28,720 --> 02:23:32,560
Speaker 1: autopsy commissioned by Tyrese family found extensive bleeding caused by

2286
02:23:32,640 --> 02:23:36,160
Speaker 1: a severe beating outrage around the killing grew rapidly, and

2287
02:23:36,240 --> 02:23:38,480
Speaker 1: it was announced by the Memphis Police that body camera

2288
02:23:38,520 --> 02:23:40,680
Speaker 1: footage of the stop and of the beating would be

2289
02:23:40,800 --> 02:23:44,520
Speaker 1: released to the public. Uh. This started the rumor mill

2290
02:23:44,640 --> 02:23:48,280
Speaker 1: really churning up. UM. There was kind of a couple

2291
02:23:48,360 --> 02:23:50,560
Speaker 1: of leaks from people who had seen the footage, I

2292
02:23:50,640 --> 02:23:52,480
Speaker 1: think who were close to the case, and they all

2293
02:23:52,520 --> 02:23:55,040
Speaker 1: sort of described it as uniquely bad. The term that

2294
02:23:55,120 --> 02:23:57,160
Speaker 1: I heard a lot was that it's worse than the

2295
02:23:57,240 --> 02:24:00,640
Speaker 1: Rodney King beating. UM. This is just the way in

2296
02:24:00,680 --> 02:24:03,280
Speaker 1: which people started talking about it. And as more details

2297
02:24:03,320 --> 02:24:07,040
Speaker 1: filtered out, there were conversations around the country, particularly folks

2298
02:24:07,120 --> 02:24:09,720
Speaker 1: on the activists left, who started talking about the need

2299
02:24:09,800 --> 02:24:12,199
Speaker 1: to prepare for what they suspected would be the aftermath

2300
02:24:12,280 --> 02:24:15,280
Speaker 1: of the video's release. UM. And one of the things

2301
02:24:15,360 --> 02:24:17,960
Speaker 1: that was kind of kind of worth discussing here is

2302
02:24:18,000 --> 02:24:22,000
Speaker 1: that in the immediate like immediately before the video came out,

2303
02:24:22,440 --> 02:24:24,720
Speaker 1: a lot of the conversations that people on the left

2304
02:24:24,760 --> 02:24:26,920
Speaker 1: we're having and that people in law enforcement we're having,

2305
02:24:27,320 --> 02:24:30,640
Speaker 1: kind of focused around the same expectations, which was that

2306
02:24:30,840 --> 02:24:33,959
Speaker 1: there would be widespread protests and rioting as a result

2307
02:24:34,040 --> 02:24:37,400
Speaker 1: of the release of this video. UM. Police departments around

2308
02:24:37,440 --> 02:24:40,680
Speaker 1: the country entered high alert. Riot squads were prepped. Um,

2309
02:24:40,879 --> 02:24:42,560
Speaker 1: and then kind of on the other side of things

2310
02:24:42,640 --> 02:24:44,960
Speaker 1: and sort of open channels on Twitter and massed on

2311
02:24:45,080 --> 02:24:47,600
Speaker 1: and in person, and a number of of of different

2312
02:24:47,640 --> 02:24:50,800
Speaker 1: cases leftists and people you know who claimed to be

2313
02:24:50,879 --> 02:24:54,560
Speaker 1: that online talked about their expectations too. I heard variations

2314
02:24:54,640 --> 02:24:56,480
Speaker 1: of the phrase, you know, it's going to be a

2315
02:24:56,520 --> 02:24:58,560
Speaker 1: really hot year. This is going to like lead into

2316
02:24:58,640 --> 02:25:01,480
Speaker 1: a particularly aggressive Some are on the ground, people are

2317
02:25:01,520 --> 02:25:03,880
Speaker 1: going to make the burning of that precinct in Minneapolis

2318
02:25:04,200 --> 02:25:06,440
Speaker 1: look tame. You know, get your gear together, check in

2319
02:25:06,520 --> 02:25:09,720
Speaker 1: with your friends. Everything's about to go off. Um. There

2320
02:25:09,840 --> 02:25:12,440
Speaker 1: was a lot of chatter kind of along those lines,

2321
02:25:12,560 --> 02:25:17,320
Speaker 1: and I don't know, I didn't really speak up too

2322
02:25:17,440 --> 02:25:20,720
Speaker 1: much about this, but my kind of thinking, as folks

2323
02:25:20,800 --> 02:25:24,040
Speaker 1: were sort of anticipating the reaction to this was I

2324
02:25:24,200 --> 02:25:28,080
Speaker 1: suspected that the actual reaction on a mass scale to

2325
02:25:28,120 --> 02:25:30,280
Speaker 1: the video's release was going to be more muted and

2326
02:25:30,440 --> 02:25:33,160
Speaker 1: law abiding than than people were expecting at the time.

2327
02:25:33,800 --> 02:25:35,880
Speaker 1: And I guess the primary reason that I felt this

2328
02:25:35,920 --> 02:25:38,080
Speaker 1: way was simply that kind of the vibes were off.

2329
02:25:38,200 --> 02:25:41,480
Speaker 1: It just didn't feel like folks were ready for that

2330
02:25:41,640 --> 02:25:44,160
Speaker 1: kind of a response. Um, but I do kind of

2331
02:25:44,240 --> 02:25:46,760
Speaker 1: have a fact based reason for why I was anticipating

2332
02:25:46,800 --> 02:25:50,480
Speaker 1: that as well. UM. On January, two days before the

2333
02:25:50,560 --> 02:25:53,440
Speaker 1: video's release, five Memphis p D officers were arrested and

2334
02:25:53,560 --> 02:25:57,119
Speaker 1: charged with murder, kidnapping, assault, a bevy of very serious charges.

2335
02:25:57,480 --> 02:26:00,400
Speaker 1: Immediately after that, three firefighters to E. M. Tease and

2336
02:26:00,480 --> 02:26:02,760
Speaker 1: a police lieutenant who had been on scene after the

2337
02:26:02,800 --> 02:26:05,720
Speaker 1: beating were fired for failing to assess and provide emergency

2338
02:26:05,760 --> 02:26:08,200
Speaker 1: care to Nichols on scene. And there's a couple of

2339
02:26:08,240 --> 02:26:10,120
Speaker 1: ways to view what happened here. I think the less

2340
02:26:10,120 --> 02:26:13,080
Speaker 1: optimistic one is that the state simply made a pragmatic

2341
02:26:13,160 --> 02:26:16,359
Speaker 1: decision to throw these guys onto the bus. That's definitely

2342
02:26:16,440 --> 02:26:19,640
Speaker 1: what happened. The more optimistic way to look at this

2343
02:26:19,800 --> 02:26:22,320
Speaker 1: is that because people had rioted so hard for so

2344
02:26:22,520 --> 02:26:24,960
Speaker 1: long in the wake of George Floyd's murder, the state

2345
02:26:25,080 --> 02:26:27,200
Speaker 1: felt like it had to throw these guys under the

2346
02:26:27,280 --> 02:26:30,600
Speaker 1: bus rather than, you know, risk another year of rage.

2347
02:26:31,000 --> 02:26:32,840
Speaker 1: And this is also correct. I think both of these

2348
02:26:32,879 --> 02:26:36,039
Speaker 1: things are are pretty accurate ways to look at what happened.

2349
02:26:36,680 --> 02:26:38,720
Speaker 1: The idea that the release of the footage of Tyree's

2350
02:26:38,800 --> 02:26:41,600
Speaker 1: murder would lead to massive protests. Was not quite universal,

2351
02:26:41,680 --> 02:26:43,240
Speaker 1: but I didn't notice that a lot of the people

2352
02:26:43,280 --> 02:26:46,760
Speaker 1: who felt similarly to me expressed the belief that if

2353
02:26:46,840 --> 02:26:50,040
Speaker 1: people didn't riot over what had happened to Tyree, that

2354
02:26:50,160 --> 02:26:52,720
Speaker 1: was due to a mix of liberal cowardice and racism,

2355
02:26:52,760 --> 02:26:55,000
Speaker 1: since most of the officers who beat Tyree to death

2356
02:26:55,040 --> 02:26:57,680
Speaker 1: were themselves black. And I think this is kind of

2357
02:26:57,720 --> 02:27:00,199
Speaker 1: a short sighted and unfair take, and I'll talk about

2358
02:27:00,240 --> 02:27:05,280
Speaker 1: why shortly. On January Friday, the Tyree Nichols videos were

2359
02:27:05,320 --> 02:27:08,520
Speaker 1: released by the Memphis Police Department UM, along with a

2360
02:27:08,600 --> 02:27:11,480
Speaker 1: lot of you. I watched them all immediately, UM, and

2361
02:27:11,600 --> 02:27:14,039
Speaker 1: you can find there's a description on my Twitter page.

2362
02:27:14,080 --> 02:27:16,920
Speaker 1: It's turned currently pinned to my profile of the video

2363
02:27:17,120 --> 02:27:19,000
Speaker 1: if you haven't seen it but want to know what

2364
02:27:19,120 --> 02:27:21,920
Speaker 1: happened there. UM To kind of summarize it in brief,

2365
02:27:21,959 --> 02:27:25,120
Speaker 1: it's it's very ugly. Uh. Tyree is immediately calm as

2366
02:27:25,160 --> 02:27:27,880
Speaker 1: he's pulled over and taken from his car. The police

2367
02:27:27,879 --> 02:27:31,280
Speaker 1: are not calm. He attempts to de escalate them. They

2368
02:27:31,360 --> 02:27:34,800
Speaker 1: accuse him falsely of resisting, then they mace him and themselves.

2369
02:27:35,640 --> 02:27:38,280
Speaker 1: I think in general that The inciting incident for the

2370
02:27:38,360 --> 02:27:41,279
Speaker 1: beating was the incompetent use of mace by these officers.

2371
02:27:41,400 --> 02:27:43,800
Speaker 1: They hurt themselves, they got pissed, and then they beat

2372
02:27:43,920 --> 02:27:48,320
Speaker 1: Tyree because they were angry at themselves for macing themselves. UM.

2373
02:27:48,760 --> 02:27:51,600
Speaker 1: It's also kind of worth noting that a white officer

2374
02:27:51,640 --> 02:27:54,360
Speaker 1: who has since been fired as well, also deployed his

2375
02:27:54,440 --> 02:27:56,760
Speaker 1: taser on the young man. There's been some kind of

2376
02:27:57,080 --> 02:27:58,560
Speaker 1: this was kind of left out of a lot of

2377
02:27:58,600 --> 02:28:01,600
Speaker 1: the initial summaries of what had happened. Uh, that guy

2378
02:28:01,720 --> 02:28:05,520
Speaker 1: has now been fired. UM, and yeah, it's it's bad.

2379
02:28:05,640 --> 02:28:08,760
Speaker 1: The video is is very unpleasant and very brutal. UM.

2380
02:28:09,040 --> 02:28:10,960
Speaker 1: Watching it, though, I think kind of the thing that

2381
02:28:11,000 --> 02:28:14,080
Speaker 1: struck me most was how much like a normal traffic

2382
02:28:14,160 --> 02:28:17,640
Speaker 1: stop a lot of this was. UM. I think that

2383
02:28:17,840 --> 02:28:20,200
Speaker 1: if you know, they had gone a little bit less

2384
02:28:20,240 --> 02:28:22,280
Speaker 1: hard and beating him a little less badly and he

2385
02:28:22,400 --> 02:28:25,279
Speaker 1: had survived, they probably would have charged him with resisting

2386
02:28:25,400 --> 02:28:28,800
Speaker 1: arrest and assault on a police officer. UM. And who

2387
02:28:28,879 --> 02:28:31,280
Speaker 1: knows how the case would have gone. You can hear

2388
02:28:31,320 --> 02:28:34,400
Speaker 1: the police preparing for this eventuality in the footage. One

2389
02:28:34,440 --> 02:28:36,880
Speaker 1: officer claims that Tyree went for his gun there's no

2390
02:28:37,000 --> 02:28:39,440
Speaker 1: evidence of this in the footage, uh, And you can

2391
02:28:39,520 --> 02:28:41,360
Speaker 1: kind of hear them all working to get their stories

2392
02:28:41,400 --> 02:28:45,080
Speaker 1: straight after they beat tyree Um for the inevitable court case,

2393
02:28:45,879 --> 02:28:49,160
Speaker 1: more officers an emergency personnel arrive on scene as he's

2394
02:28:49,240 --> 02:28:51,480
Speaker 1: just kind of laying there, and none of them seemed

2395
02:28:51,480 --> 02:28:55,640
Speaker 1: to find what's happened peculiar or noteworthy, which is interesting

2396
02:28:55,720 --> 02:28:59,040
Speaker 1: because immediately prior to the video's release, police departments around

2397
02:28:59,080 --> 02:29:02,720
Speaker 1: the country all shoot statements that were basically identical, condemning

2398
02:29:02,760 --> 02:29:06,160
Speaker 1: the officers who had beaten nichols Um, saying basically, this

2399
02:29:06,400 --> 02:29:10,120
Speaker 1: behavior is unacceptable. These men are bad apples. This is

2400
02:29:10,240 --> 02:29:13,440
Speaker 1: like an extreme example that does not represent policing values.

2401
02:29:13,640 --> 02:29:16,959
Speaker 1: And there's a couple of things that are are interesting

2402
02:29:17,000 --> 02:29:20,400
Speaker 1: about this. One of them is that the actual way

2403
02:29:20,480 --> 02:29:24,720
Speaker 1: in which emergency responders on scene treated the beating kind

2404
02:29:24,800 --> 02:29:27,400
Speaker 1: of puts the lie to that, because nobody acts as

2405
02:29:27,440 --> 02:29:30,520
Speaker 1: if anything outside of the normal has occurred. And the

2406
02:29:30,600 --> 02:29:33,480
Speaker 1: other thing that is noteworthy is the uniformity of these

2407
02:29:33,720 --> 02:29:36,640
Speaker 1: these messages by police departments around the country. I have

2408
02:29:36,800 --> 02:29:39,400
Speaker 1: not actually seen that happen before. There was kind of

2409
02:29:39,440 --> 02:29:41,600
Speaker 1: a version of this that occurred in the wake of

2410
02:29:41,720 --> 02:29:45,400
Speaker 1: the George Floyd video, but it was much more cohesive

2411
02:29:46,520 --> 02:29:50,360
Speaker 1: prior to the release of the Tyree Nichols video. UM.

2412
02:29:50,760 --> 02:29:53,160
Speaker 1: That said, there were no widespread riots or acts of

2413
02:29:53,200 --> 02:29:56,480
Speaker 1: property destruction. After the video was released. There were protests

2414
02:29:56,520 --> 02:29:59,400
Speaker 1: in a number of cities, most notably in Memphis, UM,

2415
02:29:59,680 --> 02:30:03,800
Speaker 1: but compared to things were very subdued. There was not

2416
02:30:04,040 --> 02:30:08,160
Speaker 1: kind of widespread property destruction or rioting in Portland, which

2417
02:30:08,240 --> 02:30:11,040
Speaker 1: was obviously the site of intense radical street actions. In

2418
02:30:11,840 --> 02:30:15,360
Speaker 1: there were two fairly small marches. UM. I'm not gonna

2419
02:30:15,959 --> 02:30:19,440
Speaker 1: delve into this in tremendous detail, but there were kind

2420
02:30:19,480 --> 02:30:22,920
Speaker 1: of allegations from one of the marches that the larger

2421
02:30:23,000 --> 02:30:25,240
Speaker 1: and less radical of the two was an op designed

2422
02:30:25,280 --> 02:30:27,520
Speaker 1: to take numbers and energy away from the radical march.

2423
02:30:27,600 --> 02:30:31,200
Speaker 1: There were confrontations between members of both groups, and while

2424
02:30:31,240 --> 02:30:33,840
Speaker 1: the overall story, again is not worth spending time on,

2425
02:30:34,240 --> 02:30:36,520
Speaker 1: the gist of it is that very little happened. Now

2426
02:30:36,840 --> 02:30:40,120
Speaker 1: this is not kind of limited to Portland. Atlanta, Georgia

2427
02:30:40,560 --> 02:30:42,800
Speaker 1: is probably the city in the US today that's been

2428
02:30:42,840 --> 02:30:45,520
Speaker 1: the center of the most effective radical protests against law

2429
02:30:45,600 --> 02:30:48,560
Speaker 1: enforcement and the history of attempts to stop and sabotage.

2430
02:30:48,680 --> 02:30:51,840
Speaker 1: The construction of Cops City, which is obviously a massive

2431
02:30:51,879 --> 02:30:55,240
Speaker 1: police training compound in Atlanta's largest urban forest, has been

2432
02:30:55,280 --> 02:30:58,560
Speaker 1: well documented by by Garrison Davis UM as well as

2433
02:30:58,560 --> 02:31:01,000
Speaker 1: a number of other reporters. UM. I do think it's

2434
02:31:01,040 --> 02:31:03,800
Speaker 1: worth noting that days before the Nichols video was released,

2435
02:31:03,920 --> 02:31:07,880
Speaker 1: Atlanta police shot and killed the forest defender Tortuguia, and

2436
02:31:08,000 --> 02:31:11,880
Speaker 1: a moderately large protest followed, where protesters smashing windows and

2437
02:31:12,000 --> 02:31:15,040
Speaker 1: lighting one cop car on fire. This was the kind

2438
02:31:15,120 --> 02:31:18,440
Speaker 1: of action that I think most of the activists I

2439
02:31:18,560 --> 02:31:21,560
Speaker 1: observed expected in the wake of the Nichols video as well,

2440
02:31:21,920 --> 02:31:24,160
Speaker 1: but we simply didn't see that. I'm just going to

2441
02:31:24,280 --> 02:31:26,640
Speaker 1: butt in here for a little bit and you'll you'll

2442
02:31:26,920 --> 02:31:30,200
Speaker 1: you'll hear more about that riot slash protest in Atlanta

2443
02:31:30,640 --> 02:31:33,680
Speaker 1: next week. UM. I'm putting together a series on it

2444
02:31:33,800 --> 02:31:37,600
Speaker 1: that'll that'll be out soon. But definitely one of the

2445
02:31:37,800 --> 02:31:42,840
Speaker 1: things that was talked about a lot in Atlanta was

2446
02:31:43,440 --> 02:31:47,840
Speaker 1: the upcoming release of this video and the potentiality of

2447
02:31:48,520 --> 02:31:52,000
Speaker 1: this video getting released shortly after the death of Tortuguita

2448
02:31:52,080 --> 02:31:54,480
Speaker 1: at the hands of police. Kind of both of these

2449
02:31:54,520 --> 02:31:57,320
Speaker 1: things feeding off each other. Into a into a similar

2450
02:31:57,440 --> 02:32:02,840
Speaker 1: like level UH uprising, and this was like no one

2451
02:32:03,000 --> 02:32:05,360
Speaker 1: was like for sure about this, Like no one was

2452
02:32:05,440 --> 02:32:08,160
Speaker 1: like saying, this is absolutely definitely gonna happen, But it

2453
02:32:08,280 --> 02:32:11,560
Speaker 1: was something that was definitely thought about. UM, it was

2454
02:32:11,640 --> 02:32:15,480
Speaker 1: something that was definitely considered. I think, honestly, if the

2455
02:32:16,400 --> 02:32:19,520
Speaker 1: the video was set to come out originally on like

2456
02:32:20,040 --> 02:32:26,800
Speaker 1: the Monday or Tuesday following the big downtown protest in Atlanta, UM,

2457
02:32:26,920 --> 02:32:28,600
Speaker 1: it was supposed to come out just a few days later,

2458
02:32:29,040 --> 02:32:31,880
Speaker 1: and that that didn't happen. It was delayed once again

2459
02:32:32,000 --> 02:32:35,640
Speaker 1: for further further into the week. UM. I think if

2460
02:32:35,720 --> 02:32:38,680
Speaker 1: it came out sooner, I think that could have fed

2461
02:32:38,720 --> 02:32:41,680
Speaker 1: off momentum in a pretty considerable way. I think a

2462
02:32:41,760 --> 02:32:44,560
Speaker 1: few things happened both in Atlanta that in the in

2463
02:32:44,640 --> 02:32:49,480
Speaker 1: the next few days that kind of stunted possible possible

2464
02:32:49,959 --> 02:32:54,800
Speaker 1: for their protest. UM National Guard was deployed, UM police

2465
02:32:54,800 --> 02:32:58,680
Speaker 1: and Savannah were ordered to start arresting people and shutting

2466
02:32:58,760 --> 02:33:03,560
Speaker 1: down gatherings of over teen UH specifically for like including vigils,

2467
02:33:04,120 --> 02:33:07,440
Speaker 1: and in Atlanta, obviously there was people getting really pretty

2468
02:33:07,560 --> 02:33:11,840
Speaker 1: pretty inflated, UH high level felonies and domestic and domestic

2469
02:33:11,920 --> 02:33:15,080
Speaker 1: terrorism charges simply for being simply for being present at

2470
02:33:15,120 --> 02:33:18,000
Speaker 1: a protest UM. So I think those those things kind

2471
02:33:18,040 --> 02:33:23,800
Speaker 1: of all in all impacted people's ability to like prepare

2472
02:33:23,959 --> 02:33:28,320
Speaker 1: for you know, a sequence of protests which there was

2473
02:33:28,400 --> 02:33:31,080
Speaker 1: someone there was someone in l a for for like

2474
02:33:31,520 --> 02:33:33,760
Speaker 1: a day or two. The ones in Memphis were pretty big,

2475
02:33:34,120 --> 02:33:38,600
Speaker 1: but I think they the the timeline in which they

2476
02:33:38,680 --> 02:33:42,760
Speaker 1: released the video is definitely should be considered in terms

2477
02:33:42,800 --> 02:33:45,840
Speaker 1: of when they chose to release it um to like

2478
02:33:47,959 --> 02:33:51,680
Speaker 1: in terms of like the state's goal of preventing you know,

2479
02:33:52,320 --> 02:33:55,080
Speaker 1: large large scale protests. But that was definitely something that

2480
02:33:55,160 --> 02:33:58,720
Speaker 1: was talked about a lot, uh during during like the

2481
02:33:59,480 --> 02:34:01,120
Speaker 1: little over a week that I was that I was

2482
02:34:01,160 --> 02:34:03,680
Speaker 1: in Atlantis, because everyone was getting ready for this. Like

2483
02:34:03,800 --> 02:34:06,760
Speaker 1: everyone heard that this is going to be like the

2484
02:34:06,800 --> 02:34:09,480
Speaker 1: worst of video that we've seen since Rodney King. Like

2485
02:34:09,520 --> 02:34:12,480
Speaker 1: that that that that was the way it was. It

2486
02:34:12,640 --> 02:34:15,200
Speaker 1: was thought up of like on the ground, you know,

2487
02:34:15,280 --> 02:34:19,800
Speaker 1: just like word of mouth being being passed um, and

2488
02:34:20,040 --> 02:34:24,600
Speaker 1: people were definitely like preparing for like preparing themselves for it,

2489
02:34:24,760 --> 02:34:27,600
Speaker 1: like like like thinking like thinking about like what's going

2490
02:34:27,640 --> 02:34:30,600
Speaker 1: to happen if this is like if this really is

2491
02:34:30,640 --> 02:34:34,120
Speaker 1: the most horrific thing. What is the appropriate response to that?

2492
02:34:35,200 --> 02:34:36,920
Speaker 1: And and this is kind of a lot of what

2493
02:34:37,000 --> 02:34:40,200
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk around, because you have sort of

2494
02:34:40,920 --> 02:34:45,199
Speaker 1: Georgia law enforcement, there's this this riot, and the response

2495
02:34:45,280 --> 02:34:47,320
Speaker 1: to that as well as the response to the tree

2496
02:34:47,360 --> 02:34:50,640
Speaker 1: set is a series of domestic terrorism charges. Um. And

2497
02:34:50,720 --> 02:34:54,320
Speaker 1: then this video comes out and there's not a mass,

2498
02:34:54,959 --> 02:34:58,520
Speaker 1: like radical street response to it, and it it seems

2499
02:34:58,600 --> 02:35:00,000
Speaker 1: to me and Garrison you can correct me if I'm

2500
02:35:00,040 --> 02:35:02,520
Speaker 1: wrong that a big part of that is people in

2501
02:35:03,000 --> 02:35:06,920
Speaker 1: Atlanta were kind of not willing to throw more lives

2502
02:35:07,200 --> 02:35:11,760
Speaker 1: and bodies at the police without kind of more of

2503
02:35:11,800 --> 02:35:14,160
Speaker 1: a cohesive plan of what to do given the severity

2504
02:35:14,200 --> 02:35:17,240
Speaker 1: of the repression that that was being engaged in. I mean,

2505
02:35:17,640 --> 02:35:22,080
Speaker 1: obviously can't comment on people's yeah, the motivations or like

2506
02:35:22,360 --> 02:35:25,040
Speaker 1: plans for for for stuff, because that's not something that

2507
02:35:25,120 --> 02:35:28,880
Speaker 1: I would be would be privy privy to. Yeah. Um,

2508
02:35:29,680 --> 02:35:33,560
Speaker 1: so I I don't know, there's there's there's a lot

2509
02:35:33,600 --> 02:35:35,879
Speaker 1: of stuff. I mean, like, I think a big part

2510
02:35:35,920 --> 02:35:38,279
Speaker 1: of why I heard a lot about it in Atlanta

2511
02:35:38,440 --> 02:35:41,080
Speaker 1: was one because of a friend of a lot of

2512
02:35:41,440 --> 02:35:43,560
Speaker 1: people who were involved in the force in the force

2513
02:35:43,640 --> 02:35:46,680
Speaker 1: events got killed by police a few days earlier. And two.

2514
02:35:47,280 --> 02:35:50,040
Speaker 1: Memphis is only a few hours away from Atlanta, but like,

2515
02:35:50,200 --> 02:35:52,520
Speaker 1: it's it's it's not it's it's it's not that far,

2516
02:35:52,680 --> 02:35:54,800
Speaker 1: and it's a big part of the stuff in Atlanta

2517
02:35:55,040 --> 02:35:58,720
Speaker 1: is like solidarity with struggles that are not just in

2518
02:35:58,800 --> 02:36:02,480
Speaker 1: your immediate vicinity. And you could argue that Memphis really

2519
02:36:02,600 --> 02:36:06,200
Speaker 1: is in the immediate vicinity of Georgia. Um, but like

2520
02:36:06,480 --> 02:36:12,760
Speaker 1: that that type of cross cross state solidarity is is

2521
02:36:12,800 --> 02:36:16,560
Speaker 1: a big part um. But yeah, I can I I

2522
02:36:16,920 --> 02:36:20,480
Speaker 1: could not comment on on on why why people did

2523
02:36:20,600 --> 02:36:23,119
Speaker 1: or did not choose to do specific things. I think

2524
02:36:23,160 --> 02:36:27,279
Speaker 1: that that's that's up for people themselves. Yeah, I wouldn't

2525
02:36:27,320 --> 02:36:29,360
Speaker 1: want to put words into anyone's mouth. But it was

2526
02:36:29,440 --> 02:36:31,959
Speaker 1: kind of interesting because I I paid attention a lot

2527
02:36:32,080 --> 02:36:34,320
Speaker 1: to the reaction, and there were a lot of folks

2528
02:36:34,480 --> 02:36:38,240
Speaker 1: talking about how disheartening it was that there were not

2529
02:36:38,520 --> 02:36:42,240
Speaker 1: more of the kind of radical actions that they wanted

2530
02:36:42,280 --> 02:36:44,480
Speaker 1: to see in the wake of the video coming out,

2531
02:36:44,560 --> 02:36:47,240
Speaker 1: And I'm that's kind of the thing I wanted sort

2532
02:36:47,280 --> 02:36:49,840
Speaker 1: of to talk most around because I feel very mixed

2533
02:36:49,920 --> 02:36:54,360
Speaker 1: around this. But broadly speaking, I guess I'm glad that

2534
02:36:54,520 --> 02:36:57,000
Speaker 1: we didn't see a repeat of the part of that

2535
02:36:57,160 --> 02:37:00,840
Speaker 1: was folks standing up in front of cops shops until

2536
02:37:01,320 --> 02:37:04,199
Speaker 1: riot police came in and getting charges against them, because

2537
02:37:04,200 --> 02:37:07,840
Speaker 1: I just don't think that that works right now. I

2538
02:37:07,840 --> 02:37:11,440
Speaker 1: don't think it works is functional anymore. Um, I don't

2539
02:37:11,480 --> 02:37:16,520
Speaker 1: think it actually hurts the state because the reaction, like

2540
02:37:17,320 --> 02:37:20,240
Speaker 1: there was a period of time early in those first

2541
02:37:20,280 --> 02:37:23,000
Speaker 1: couple of months in particular, where you could see the

2542
02:37:23,080 --> 02:37:26,320
Speaker 1: police were off balance. Obviously in like Minneapolis with the

2543
02:37:26,360 --> 02:37:28,600
Speaker 1: burning of the Third Precinct was was this kind of

2544
02:37:28,680 --> 02:37:31,640
Speaker 1: sea change moment um, but you could see it in

2545
02:37:31,680 --> 02:37:34,280
Speaker 1: a number of cities that like they didn't really know

2546
02:37:34,400 --> 02:37:36,760
Speaker 1: what was going on, and they were themselves concerned with

2547
02:37:36,840 --> 02:37:39,600
Speaker 1: how out of control the situation had gotten. And then

2548
02:37:40,240 --> 02:37:42,880
Speaker 1: it kind of morphed later in the year to I

2549
02:37:43,000 --> 02:37:45,280
Speaker 1: think a situation they could control very well where there

2550
02:37:45,320 --> 02:37:49,120
Speaker 1: were these acts of fairly minor property destruction and then

2551
02:37:49,320 --> 02:37:51,400
Speaker 1: a bunch of people would get picked up and charged.

2552
02:37:51,600 --> 02:37:55,200
Speaker 1: And I I think that while I understand like the

2553
02:37:55,280 --> 02:37:59,160
Speaker 1: desire to react that way and to do something um

2554
02:38:00,040 --> 02:38:03,880
Speaker 1: kind of very firm and uh and radical in response

2555
02:38:03,959 --> 02:38:08,240
Speaker 1: to state violence like this, I'm also like deeply concerned

2556
02:38:08,400 --> 02:38:12,560
Speaker 1: about people not throwing away months and years of their

2557
02:38:12,600 --> 02:38:15,240
Speaker 1: lives fighting charges. Yeah. I mean a big part of

2558
02:38:15,280 --> 02:38:20,959
Speaker 1: it is is people learning that treating protesters as disposable

2559
02:38:21,600 --> 02:38:23,920
Speaker 1: meat bags to throw against the wall of the state

2560
02:38:24,320 --> 02:38:27,400
Speaker 1: is kind of a bad idea. Um. And there's I

2561
02:38:27,520 --> 02:38:31,360
Speaker 1: think this is something that that that was talked about

2562
02:38:31,400 --> 02:38:35,960
Speaker 1: in conversations just just like regarding like, hey, this video

2563
02:38:36,040 --> 02:38:37,400
Speaker 1: is going to come out, what do you think it's

2564
02:38:37,440 --> 02:38:39,240
Speaker 1: going to happen. Like there's just a lot of the casual,

2565
02:38:39,280 --> 02:38:44,840
Speaker 1: casual conversations, but like there was a lot to make happened.

2566
02:38:44,959 --> 02:38:49,600
Speaker 1: A lot of things contributed to the intensity and the

2567
02:38:49,760 --> 02:38:54,360
Speaker 1: length of those protests. I think, uh, COVID being a

2568
02:38:54,560 --> 02:38:57,560
Speaker 1: pretty big part. This was a few months into the pandemic.

2569
02:38:57,800 --> 02:39:00,200
Speaker 1: People have been stuck in their homes now for a

2570
02:39:00,280 --> 02:39:02,680
Speaker 1: few months and not really like prepared for that. Like

2571
02:39:02,840 --> 02:39:05,280
Speaker 1: at this at this point, we're kind of we're all

2572
02:39:05,360 --> 02:39:06,800
Speaker 1: kind of used to being in our house a lot

2573
02:39:06,879 --> 02:39:10,200
Speaker 1: more now, but back then it was it was new

2574
02:39:10,320 --> 02:39:13,400
Speaker 1: for a lot of people. So I think the opportity,

2575
02:39:13,480 --> 02:39:15,640
Speaker 1: the opportunity to get out of the house for what

2576
02:39:15,760 --> 02:39:18,240
Speaker 1: seemed like an important reason I think was a really

2577
02:39:18,360 --> 02:39:22,600
Speaker 1: big part of people being out of a lot of

2578
02:39:22,640 --> 02:39:25,000
Speaker 1: work was a really big part of because a lot

2579
02:39:25,040 --> 02:39:27,680
Speaker 1: of people did did not have the types of jobs

2580
02:39:27,720 --> 02:39:29,560
Speaker 1: that they might have now, did not have the jobs

2581
02:39:29,640 --> 02:39:34,200
Speaker 1: they had like in like the months before. It's maybe

2582
02:39:34,440 --> 02:39:37,040
Speaker 1: because I can't really think of another example like this

2583
02:39:37,200 --> 02:39:41,240
Speaker 1: from history. Obviously a lot of uprisings occur when people

2584
02:39:41,280 --> 02:39:43,160
Speaker 1: are suddenly out of work, but this was a mix

2585
02:39:43,240 --> 02:39:45,720
Speaker 1: of people are suddenly out of work and they suddenly

2586
02:39:45,760 --> 02:39:51,080
Speaker 1: they all have cash like that, that which contributed in

2587
02:39:51,160 --> 02:39:53,160
Speaker 1: a lot of ways because like that, that was I

2588
02:39:53,240 --> 02:39:56,000
Speaker 1: think what funded a lot of you know, people bringing

2589
02:39:56,040 --> 02:39:58,640
Speaker 1: in food and people bringing in like pallets of water

2590
02:39:58,879 --> 02:40:01,160
Speaker 1: and getting gas mask and stuff. Is they had these

2591
02:40:01,240 --> 02:40:04,280
Speaker 1: sort of checks for you know, as a result of

2592
02:40:04,360 --> 02:40:08,200
Speaker 1: like COVID relief, which was an interesting situation as well

2593
02:40:08,280 --> 02:40:11,640
Speaker 1: that hasn't been replicated since. I think there's there's another

2594
02:40:11,959 --> 02:40:14,520
Speaker 1: very important factor of this that doesn't get talked about

2595
02:40:14,520 --> 02:40:17,080
Speaker 1: that much, which is just the weather. Like if if

2596
02:40:17,200 --> 02:40:18,879
Speaker 1: if you if you, if you go back and look

2597
02:40:18,959 --> 02:40:22,280
Speaker 1: at when the largest police like largest anti police protests

2598
02:40:22,360 --> 02:40:24,960
Speaker 1: in the US have happened, right, they either start like

2599
02:40:25,120 --> 02:40:28,600
Speaker 1: late spring, early fall, or just the middle of the summer,

2600
02:40:28,720 --> 02:40:31,360
Speaker 1: and there's reason. Yeah, like then this is I think

2601
02:40:31,760 --> 02:40:33,840
Speaker 1: another this is this is the thing up in Chicago

2602
02:40:34,040 --> 02:40:37,440
Speaker 1: right was it was just really fucking cold, and I

2603
02:40:37,480 --> 02:40:39,160
Speaker 1: mean this this affects actually circles too, but it's like

2604
02:40:39,200 --> 02:40:41,600
Speaker 1: you can't get the critical mass of just regular people

2605
02:40:41,680 --> 02:40:45,280
Speaker 1: in the streets when it's like twenty degrees. I think

2606
02:40:45,400 --> 02:40:48,680
Speaker 1: the other side of that is, um, just summer vacation

2607
02:40:48,959 --> 02:40:51,120
Speaker 1: of a lot of a lot of the people who

2608
02:40:51,200 --> 02:40:54,959
Speaker 1: go the hardest at these protests are people in high school. Um.

2609
02:40:55,520 --> 02:41:01,600
Speaker 1: And during winter, fall, spring, kids are in school during

2610
02:41:02,080 --> 02:41:05,760
Speaker 1: during summer, uh, people have People under the age of

2611
02:41:05,800 --> 02:41:07,680
Speaker 1: eighteen have a lot more free time on their hands.

2612
02:41:08,040 --> 02:41:11,040
Speaker 1: So I think that is another contributing factor. UM. And

2613
02:41:11,120 --> 02:41:15,360
Speaker 1: I think there's there's there's one other aspect which is

2614
02:41:18,080 --> 02:41:21,959
Speaker 1: very sinister um and but I think is worth talking

2615
02:41:21,959 --> 02:41:24,280
Speaker 1: about in terms of how of how the state may

2616
02:41:24,360 --> 02:41:27,200
Speaker 1: have been trying to frame this to like to to

2617
02:41:27,520 --> 02:41:32,600
Speaker 1: frame the release of this video too kind of like

2618
02:41:32,840 --> 02:41:36,879
Speaker 1: curtail the the the the the intensity of any type

2619
02:41:36,920 --> 02:41:40,199
Speaker 1: of like um of a protest revolt uprising. Now obviously

2620
02:41:40,280 --> 02:41:42,400
Speaker 1: that there was like the fucked up nature of like

2621
02:41:42,800 --> 02:41:45,080
Speaker 1: making this feel like a world premiere of like a

2622
02:41:45,120 --> 02:41:47,600
Speaker 1: snuff film. It was like it was it was it

2623
02:41:47,680 --> 02:41:50,720
Speaker 1: was like a weird a weird aspect, which I think

2624
02:41:51,320 --> 02:41:55,320
Speaker 1: it encouraged the video to be to be something that

2625
02:41:55,480 --> 02:41:59,200
Speaker 1: is consumed versus something that's actually like watched and like, oh,

2626
02:41:59,320 --> 02:42:00,800
Speaker 1: this is a fucked up thing that we that we

2627
02:42:00,879 --> 02:42:03,040
Speaker 1: need to do something about. Instead, it turned it into

2628
02:42:03,120 --> 02:42:06,200
Speaker 1: this like element of consumption and the other aspect for

2629
02:42:06,280 --> 02:42:09,040
Speaker 1: this in terms of a lot of hardcore activists like

2630
02:42:09,080 --> 02:42:11,400
Speaker 1: like like people who have thrown down in the streets before,

2631
02:42:11,680 --> 02:42:13,960
Speaker 1: people who have who have who have seen fucked up

2632
02:42:14,000 --> 02:42:18,440
Speaker 1: ship is that the intensity, what was the violence depicted

2633
02:42:18,480 --> 02:42:23,440
Speaker 1: on this video was framed as being extremely horrific, being

2634
02:42:23,720 --> 02:42:28,959
Speaker 1: being a very very unusual, a very um like uncommon

2635
02:42:29,600 --> 02:42:33,119
Speaker 1: but but but but horrifying display of violence and display

2636
02:42:33,240 --> 02:42:36,000
Speaker 1: of brutality by the police. This is this, This is

2637
02:42:36,040 --> 02:42:38,040
Speaker 1: what police departments were faring it as. This is what

2638
02:42:38,240 --> 02:42:40,600
Speaker 1: the President of the United States was framing this as

2639
02:42:40,720 --> 02:42:43,480
Speaker 1: like this, this is a case of a few of

2640
02:42:43,560 --> 02:42:47,640
Speaker 1: a few bad actors who who did an egregious, um

2641
02:42:47,840 --> 02:42:50,920
Speaker 1: but you know, uncommon thing. And I think when a

2642
02:42:51,000 --> 02:42:53,080
Speaker 1: lot of people who have thrown down watched this video,

2643
02:42:53,879 --> 02:42:57,120
Speaker 1: it just reminded you of stuff that you've seen before, Like, yeah,

2644
02:42:57,160 --> 02:43:00,400
Speaker 1: they saw a thing they had seen it was it

2645
02:43:00,600 --> 02:43:03,120
Speaker 1: was not shocking in the same way that it was

2646
02:43:03,200 --> 02:43:06,920
Speaker 1: getting framed as. Because what separates this from most of

2647
02:43:07,000 --> 02:43:10,879
Speaker 1: the arrests that happened in Portland during is very little

2648
02:43:11,000 --> 02:43:13,400
Speaker 1: Like one or two punches that were that were thrown

2649
02:43:13,480 --> 02:43:16,320
Speaker 1: just a little bit too hard is all that separates

2650
02:43:16,400 --> 02:43:20,520
Speaker 1: this from most like violent police arrests, Like this was

2651
02:43:20,600 --> 02:43:24,120
Speaker 1: not an uncommon display of violence. This was an ordinary,

2652
02:43:24,640 --> 02:43:28,480
Speaker 1: an ordinary encounter that just a few things were pushed

2653
02:43:28,600 --> 02:43:30,920
Speaker 1: just barely over the edge. And I think a lot

2654
02:43:30,959 --> 02:43:33,720
Speaker 1: of people watched, Like my first reaction was like, oh,

2655
02:43:33,959 --> 02:43:35,960
Speaker 1: like this, this is not as bad as what I

2656
02:43:36,080 --> 02:43:39,240
Speaker 1: thought like this and that that that should be like

2657
02:43:39,280 --> 02:43:42,600
Speaker 1: a condemnation of the police's actions. Like That's why I

2658
02:43:42,720 --> 02:43:45,280
Speaker 1: think one of the most important things to watch is

2659
02:43:45,400 --> 02:43:48,160
Speaker 1: how the other cops who were not present for the beating,

2660
02:43:48,240 --> 02:43:50,400
Speaker 1: but who show up immediately after or at the end

2661
02:43:50,440 --> 02:43:52,360
Speaker 1: of it, because some of them did watch the others

2662
02:43:52,480 --> 02:43:55,160
Speaker 1: beat him, how they react because they're just kind of

2663
02:43:59,200 --> 02:44:01,440
Speaker 1: even the MTA, right who turned up, Oh yeah, this

2664
02:44:01,520 --> 02:44:03,520
Speaker 1: has happened where we we we do a stand back

2665
02:44:03,560 --> 02:44:07,120
Speaker 1: when this happens. Right, the people on the ground were

2666
02:44:07,160 --> 02:44:10,680
Speaker 1: not concerned, Like it was not you could you could

2667
02:44:10,760 --> 02:44:13,520
Speaker 1: slowly watch because like a lot of this video was

2668
02:44:13,640 --> 02:44:15,480
Speaker 1: not of the actual beating. It was it was of

2669
02:44:15,560 --> 02:44:19,120
Speaker 1: the aftermath. And you you you could you could watch

2670
02:44:19,240 --> 02:44:23,160
Speaker 1: these cops slowly start to realize that maybe they went

2671
02:44:23,200 --> 02:44:26,040
Speaker 1: a little too hard, just very slowly over the course

2672
02:44:26,080 --> 02:44:29,000
Speaker 1: of thirty minutes. But for most of the time they're

2673
02:44:29,040 --> 02:44:32,040
Speaker 1: on the ground, they're like making jokes. They are talking

2674
02:44:32,080 --> 02:44:35,560
Speaker 1: about how fun, like how fun it was to beat

2675
02:44:35,640 --> 02:44:40,440
Speaker 1: up this person and there each other. That is most

2676
02:44:40,520 --> 02:44:42,960
Speaker 1: of the video. I think it's worth noting like a

2677
02:44:43,080 --> 02:44:46,520
Speaker 1: couple of things. One like it's extremely long, Like I'm

2678
02:44:46,600 --> 02:44:48,800
Speaker 1: not in the in the way that the George Floyd

2679
02:44:48,920 --> 02:44:51,440
Speaker 1: video like fits into the attention span of stuff we

2680
02:44:51,480 --> 02:44:56,520
Speaker 1: consume on our telephones at a time minute versus minutes

2681
02:44:56,640 --> 02:44:59,920
Speaker 1: versus like an hour of footage. Right, Yeah, if Tyree

2682
02:45:00,040 --> 02:45:03,160
Speaker 1: Nichols had just been seriously disabled, had life altering injuries,

2683
02:45:03,200 --> 02:45:05,440
Speaker 1: been charged with disting rest all the things that very

2684
02:45:05,560 --> 02:45:07,600
Speaker 1: plausibly could have happened if a couple of punches had

2685
02:45:07,640 --> 02:45:10,800
Speaker 1: handed in different place. This body camera footage would have

2686
02:45:10,840 --> 02:45:14,280
Speaker 1: been denied under the investigative exemption right then have said, no,

2687
02:45:14,360 --> 02:45:17,440
Speaker 1: we're investigating his resistance of arrest. You can't you can't

2688
02:45:17,480 --> 02:45:20,160
Speaker 1: see it, and none of this ship would have happened.

2689
02:45:20,520 --> 02:45:25,200
Speaker 1: And like, yeah, the normalcy of so much other than

2690
02:45:25,280 --> 02:45:28,120
Speaker 1: the outcome. I don't know that that stritched some of

2691
02:45:28,200 --> 02:45:32,800
Speaker 1: the rage away, but it's important context. I think a

2692
02:45:32,920 --> 02:45:36,800
Speaker 1: few things I mean, and this is again one of

2693
02:45:36,879 --> 02:45:38,560
Speaker 1: the things that I think you can see from this

2694
02:45:38,760 --> 02:45:41,920
Speaker 1: that is evidence of sort of a positive long term

2695
02:45:42,560 --> 02:45:45,760
Speaker 1: result to and it's it's a very mixed bag when

2696
02:45:45,800 --> 02:45:48,280
Speaker 1: I say it's positive, but that is kind of a

2697
02:45:49,480 --> 02:45:54,000
Speaker 1: positive sign. Is that they acted so quickly to throw

2698
02:45:54,320 --> 02:45:57,640
Speaker 1: all of these guys. They are firing and charging a

2699
02:45:57,879 --> 02:46:00,560
Speaker 1: lot of city employees over this. It's going to be

2700
02:46:01,120 --> 02:46:03,160
Speaker 1: between all of the people fired and all of the

2701
02:46:03,200 --> 02:46:05,600
Speaker 1: people charged, more than a dozen people by the time

2702
02:46:05,680 --> 02:46:08,440
Speaker 1: this is all done, which I can't think of another

2703
02:46:08,560 --> 02:46:11,279
Speaker 1: time when that has happened this quickly over an incident

2704
02:46:11,440 --> 02:46:14,400
Speaker 1: of police violence. And they did that not because it's

2705
02:46:14,440 --> 02:46:17,040
Speaker 1: the right thing to do, but because they were scared.

2706
02:46:18,200 --> 02:46:20,480
Speaker 1: And again I do I want to emphasize here the

2707
02:46:20,600 --> 02:46:23,280
Speaker 1: thing that they're scared of is not that like radical

2708
02:46:23,640 --> 02:46:26,080
Speaker 1: left wing protesters will take to the street. It's that

2709
02:46:26,520 --> 02:46:31,280
Speaker 1: liberals and moral they know that the consequence of the

2710
02:46:31,400 --> 02:46:35,680
Speaker 1: cops beating someone to death is that like someone sucker,

2711
02:46:35,760 --> 02:46:38,400
Speaker 1: mom will fucking abandon how many vans wing a snehammer

2712
02:46:38,440 --> 02:46:41,560
Speaker 1: into your cop shop? If you don't do this, do

2713
02:46:41,879 --> 02:46:44,880
Speaker 1: like give a scapegoat? Right, like do the fair the

2714
02:46:45,000 --> 02:46:48,320
Speaker 1: bare minimum? And so the positive the thing that I

2715
02:46:48,360 --> 02:46:50,560
Speaker 1: can say that is probably positive about this is that

2716
02:46:50,720 --> 02:46:53,680
Speaker 1: it does show there's still some fear there on their behalf.

2717
02:46:53,959 --> 02:46:56,560
Speaker 1: The thing that's negative is that, like, well, it it

2718
02:46:56,720 --> 02:46:59,240
Speaker 1: worked because I will say, on a moral level, I

2719
02:46:59,360 --> 02:47:03,560
Speaker 1: think a why variety of radical actions are morally justified

2720
02:47:04,959 --> 02:47:07,360
Speaker 1: by what was done to Tyrene Nichols. Now that said,

2721
02:47:07,480 --> 02:47:10,160
Speaker 1: like back to the sort of the point we were

2722
02:47:10,200 --> 02:47:13,640
Speaker 1: making the start of this, I don't particularly urge or

2723
02:47:13,840 --> 02:47:16,480
Speaker 1: encourage that just because, like I don't like seeing people

2724
02:47:16,840 --> 02:47:20,120
Speaker 1: get arrested and charged and spend years of their life

2725
02:47:20,160 --> 02:47:23,200
Speaker 1: fighting ship in court, um for the chance to like,

2726
02:47:23,920 --> 02:47:26,560
Speaker 1: let's say, carry out minor acts of property destruction on

2727
02:47:26,600 --> 02:47:30,120
Speaker 1: a cop shop. Um, I don't think like that sort

2728
02:47:30,200 --> 02:47:35,440
Speaker 1: of activism works right now, um, it certainly doesn't work

2729
02:47:35,520 --> 02:47:40,480
Speaker 1: without them, without the critical mass of like liberals sort

2730
02:47:40,520 --> 02:47:43,760
Speaker 1: of behind it, without enough people saying like we like

2731
02:47:43,879 --> 02:47:46,199
Speaker 1: again you look at like the fact that the burning

2732
02:47:46,240 --> 02:47:48,360
Speaker 1: of the Third Precinct in Minneapolis is still one of

2733
02:47:48,440 --> 02:47:51,880
Speaker 1: the most popular things in modern American politics. But that

2734
02:47:52,400 --> 02:47:55,480
Speaker 1: was the product of a fairly unique moment, And I

2735
02:47:56,000 --> 02:47:59,360
Speaker 1: just don't I see some positives in like the lingering

2736
02:47:59,520 --> 02:48:02,080
Speaker 1: fear of that moment, but I also don't see the

2737
02:48:02,200 --> 02:48:06,520
Speaker 1: material conditions that make me think it's something like that

2738
02:48:06,720 --> 02:48:10,240
Speaker 1: is coming again in the immediate future. And especially because

2739
02:48:10,440 --> 02:48:14,880
Speaker 1: this this situation around this video demonstrates how much more

2740
02:48:15,040 --> 02:48:18,280
Speaker 1: effort the state's putting into trying to prevent things from

2741
02:48:18,320 --> 02:48:21,560
Speaker 1: happening before they start. Like there was a lot of

2742
02:48:21,720 --> 02:48:25,360
Speaker 1: like inter agency work put into having all of these

2743
02:48:25,400 --> 02:48:28,200
Speaker 1: local police departments and release statements, having the FBI release statements,

2744
02:48:28,280 --> 02:48:32,119
Speaker 1: having uh, the president, yea, like having having the president

2745
02:48:32,200 --> 02:48:35,920
Speaker 1: release statements, and it's it is all made slightly more

2746
02:48:36,000 --> 02:48:39,080
Speaker 1: bizarre considering that the contents of the video are not

2747
02:48:39,480 --> 02:48:42,360
Speaker 1: the on on the level of like uncommon or like

2748
02:48:42,640 --> 02:48:46,160
Speaker 1: rare rare displays of violence that the police do, like

2749
02:48:46,240 --> 02:48:49,520
Speaker 1: this is this is this is relatively standard, um and

2750
02:48:49,920 --> 02:48:52,960
Speaker 1: that that kind of one thing I've been thinking about

2751
02:48:53,040 --> 02:48:58,320
Speaker 1: is like why did they choose this video? Like why

2752
02:48:58,400 --> 02:49:01,480
Speaker 1: did they why did they make this one? Like what

2753
02:49:01,680 --> 02:49:04,080
Speaker 1: were they afraid of, like for this video, because like

2754
02:49:04,360 --> 02:49:07,040
Speaker 1: other other other videos have come out in the past

2755
02:49:07,080 --> 02:49:10,560
Speaker 1: few years, like other like other police killings have happened,

2756
02:49:10,600 --> 02:49:13,120
Speaker 1: like this police killing is all the fucking time. But

2757
02:49:13,480 --> 02:49:17,480
Speaker 1: they they did a lot of work on this one specifically, um.

2758
02:49:17,800 --> 02:49:20,440
Speaker 1: And it's kind of it's kind of interesting that, like

2759
02:49:20,640 --> 02:49:24,400
Speaker 1: why why they chose this specific video to to dedicate

2760
02:49:24,480 --> 02:49:27,480
Speaker 1: all of this work into Because not not only did

2761
02:49:27,560 --> 02:49:29,600
Speaker 1: they like you know, denying stuff, but they also they

2762
02:49:29,680 --> 02:49:32,600
Speaker 1: like they like hyped it up. They're like you using

2763
02:49:32,640 --> 02:49:35,360
Speaker 1: this as like an example, Yeah, like like using this

2764
02:49:35,440 --> 02:49:38,080
Speaker 1: as an example, like here, this is what bad cops

2765
02:49:38,200 --> 02:49:41,120
Speaker 1: look like. Watch us punish these bad cops. Well, but

2766
02:49:41,360 --> 02:49:43,000
Speaker 1: I think I think I think there's a rate. I

2767
02:49:43,000 --> 02:49:44,880
Speaker 1: think there's a huge racial aspect of this, right, which

2768
02:49:44,920 --> 02:49:48,400
Speaker 1: is that like you know, like the cops were getting prosecuted.

2769
02:49:48,440 --> 02:49:50,400
Speaker 1: Are only the black cops who are involved in this, right?

2770
02:49:50,400 --> 02:49:52,879
Speaker 1: And I think that's a huge part of this entire strategy.

2771
02:49:52,920 --> 02:49:55,320
Speaker 1: I think that's why they framed this as exceptional violence

2772
02:49:55,840 --> 02:49:58,600
Speaker 1: is to play on people's racism, right. I think I

2773
02:49:58,760 --> 02:50:00,680
Speaker 1: think that's why why this is is allowed to happen,

2774
02:50:00,760 --> 02:50:03,080
Speaker 1: which was that yeah, you can it is. It's like

2775
02:50:03,959 --> 02:50:05,800
Speaker 1: even inside the police it is a lot easier to

2776
02:50:05,840 --> 02:50:07,400
Speaker 1: throw black cops under the bus and it is there

2777
02:50:07,440 --> 02:50:09,400
Speaker 1: white cops under the bus. That's just how the system works.

2778
02:50:09,840 --> 02:50:14,600
Speaker 1: And it doesn't trigger that same like visceral response right

2779
02:50:14,680 --> 02:50:17,160
Speaker 1: that that we all had to seeing the George Floyd video,

2780
02:50:17,360 --> 02:50:19,960
Speaker 1: I don't think quite like like there is a j

2781
02:50:20,000 --> 02:50:23,040
Speaker 1: old tradition of white men doing violent to black men

2782
02:50:23,120 --> 02:50:26,320
Speaker 1: on behalf of the state. And I think also it's

2783
02:50:26,360 --> 02:50:29,920
Speaker 1: it's also easier politically inside of the police departments because

2784
02:50:30,000 --> 02:50:31,320
Speaker 1: I think I think there would have been a lot

2785
02:50:31,400 --> 02:50:33,480
Speaker 1: more pushback from it, like the police part Like there

2786
02:50:33,480 --> 02:50:36,760
Speaker 1: hasn't been much that I've seen like internal pushback, like

2787
02:50:36,840 --> 02:50:39,160
Speaker 1: from inside of police partments, because I I think if

2788
02:50:39,160 --> 02:50:40,840
Speaker 1: it had been five white cops, I think this would

2789
02:50:40,840 --> 02:50:42,680
Speaker 1: have been a huge fight, and I think you would

2790
02:50:42,680 --> 02:50:45,440
Speaker 1: have had like the fucking police union, like calling Biden

2791
02:50:45,560 --> 02:50:48,800
Speaker 1: like an anti cop, like whatever. But I I think

2792
02:50:48,879 --> 02:50:50,640
Speaker 1: I think these were people who they were like we

2793
02:50:50,640 --> 02:50:52,320
Speaker 1: could tell these people onto the bus and doesn't looking

2794
02:50:52,320 --> 02:50:56,800
Speaker 1: matter because who cares? Yeah, so arity isn't there for them.

2795
02:50:57,360 --> 02:51:00,680
Speaker 1: I think those are I mean, that's certainly like significant

2796
02:51:00,760 --> 02:51:04,280
Speaker 1: aspect of why like this was the one they focused on.

2797
02:51:05,080 --> 02:51:07,360
Speaker 1: But I also think a major aspect of it is

2798
02:51:08,320 --> 02:51:12,040
Speaker 1: that it shows and records the reaction of other city

2799
02:51:12,080 --> 02:51:15,040
Speaker 1: employees to this, and you can see in real time

2800
02:51:15,120 --> 02:51:20,520
Speaker 1: the police putting together um that story like it's it.

2801
02:51:21,000 --> 02:51:23,640
Speaker 1: There's I think a few things about this that are

2802
02:51:23,879 --> 02:51:30,119
Speaker 1: are really unique, but even I don't know the it's

2803
02:51:30,200 --> 02:51:33,080
Speaker 1: relatively unusual to have an angle, which is not like

2804
02:51:33,400 --> 02:51:35,920
Speaker 1: the body camera, right, which really I think the violence

2805
02:51:36,000 --> 02:51:38,200
Speaker 1: in this was was captured and depicted in a way

2806
02:51:38,280 --> 02:51:40,959
Speaker 1: which was more explicit than you would get from many

2807
02:51:41,040 --> 02:51:44,680
Speaker 1: individual cops body camera. And like the fact that they

2808
02:51:45,000 --> 02:51:46,520
Speaker 1: most of the time when cops kill people to do

2809
02:51:46,560 --> 02:51:48,800
Speaker 1: it with guns, right or maybe to taste or something.

2810
02:51:48,840 --> 02:51:52,000
Speaker 1: That the fact that they took minutes, you know, like

2811
02:51:52,520 --> 02:51:55,600
Speaker 1: several minutes to be a man to death. It's it

2812
02:51:55,760 --> 02:51:57,600
Speaker 1: is just it should be. We've we've said like how

2813
02:51:57,720 --> 02:51:59,720
Speaker 1: this isn't unusual, and it's not, But it doesn't mean

2814
02:51:59,760 --> 02:52:04,120
Speaker 1: it's not repulsive. No, No, it's sucking disgusted by it.

2815
02:52:04,320 --> 02:52:09,440
Speaker 1: It's it's nightmarish. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's even more

2816
02:52:09,560 --> 02:52:13,360
Speaker 1: nightmarish considering how common this is, because yes, they did

2817
02:52:13,480 --> 02:52:15,920
Speaker 1: spend a few minutes doing this, but it was really

2818
02:52:16,000 --> 02:52:18,160
Speaker 1: only I think one or two punches that threw it

2819
02:52:18,320 --> 02:52:20,920
Speaker 1: right over the edge. Like it wasn't just a punch.

2820
02:52:21,040 --> 02:52:23,160
Speaker 1: Is the thing that I think one of the things

2821
02:52:23,240 --> 02:52:26,000
Speaker 1: that I saw that I think was probably critical and

2822
02:52:26,160 --> 02:52:30,640
Speaker 1: why he died. No, it was when they tackled him.

2823
02:52:30,800 --> 02:52:35,240
Speaker 1: His head bounced against the ground with a significant amount

2824
02:52:35,280 --> 02:52:39,240
Speaker 1: of force. There's a number of like a perfect storm

2825
02:52:39,320 --> 02:52:41,680
Speaker 1: of factors, right, that went into making this the inctident

2826
02:52:41,760 --> 02:52:43,720
Speaker 1: that they talked about, and like this the incident that

2827
02:52:43,800 --> 02:52:48,280
Speaker 1: didn't start two. I guess like it's no one particular thing,

2828
02:52:48,360 --> 02:52:50,560
Speaker 1: it's all these things that led to it. And I

2829
02:52:50,640 --> 02:52:53,360
Speaker 1: do think also, like we have Joe Biden as president, right,

2830
02:52:53,440 --> 02:52:56,320
Speaker 1: like a lot of the same bullshit it's still happening

2831
02:52:56,360 --> 02:52:58,400
Speaker 1: that we've covered, right, like talking about the cops, talking

2832
02:52:58,400 --> 02:53:00,520
Speaker 1: about the border, talking about all this stuff, but it's

2833
02:53:00,560 --> 02:53:04,840
Speaker 1: not being shoved in people's faces by legacy media outlets.

2834
02:53:05,320 --> 02:53:08,360
Speaker 1: Liberal folks have not been getting gradually angry or more

2835
02:53:08,480 --> 02:53:11,640
Speaker 1: upset at like the appearance of vulgarity from the White House.

2836
02:53:12,040 --> 02:53:15,119
Speaker 1: And yeah, and that's also a big aspect of why

2837
02:53:15,240 --> 02:53:17,440
Speaker 1: things went the way they did in is you had

2838
02:53:17,520 --> 02:53:20,280
Speaker 1: four years of pent up frustration on behalf of the

2839
02:53:21,680 --> 02:53:25,680
Speaker 1: a large group of liberals as well. Although I do again,

2840
02:53:26,000 --> 02:53:30,000
Speaker 1: I don't like pushing kind of the simple narrative here

2841
02:53:30,040 --> 02:53:32,040
Speaker 1: because I see that on the left a lot that like, oh,

2842
02:53:32,120 --> 02:53:36,360
Speaker 1: the Libs they stopped coming out because Biden one, and

2843
02:53:36,440 --> 02:53:40,160
Speaker 1: they never really cared. And I think that like, that's

2844
02:53:40,200 --> 02:53:43,119
Speaker 1: there's certainly like a decent chunk of people who who

2845
02:53:43,680 --> 02:53:46,440
Speaker 1: showed up because it was the thing to do and

2846
02:53:46,600 --> 02:53:49,240
Speaker 1: we're not committed. But I also think the folks who

2847
02:53:49,280 --> 02:53:53,119
Speaker 1: are just like, um, you know, people stopped coming out

2848
02:53:53,240 --> 02:53:56,200
Speaker 1: because they suck. That's a that's a little bit of

2849
02:53:56,280 --> 02:53:59,680
Speaker 1: a reductive summary of the take. But I think that

2850
02:53:59,760 --> 02:54:02,520
Speaker 1: that that broad idea leaves out a lot. One of

2851
02:54:02,560 --> 02:54:03,960
Speaker 1: the things that leaves out is that a lot of

2852
02:54:04,080 --> 02:54:07,480
Speaker 1: those those Libs and moderates who showed up in got

2853
02:54:07,520 --> 02:54:10,240
Speaker 1: the ship beaten out of them and got pretty traumatized

2854
02:54:10,440 --> 02:54:14,520
Speaker 1: and are probably would be willing to get back out again.

2855
02:54:14,800 --> 02:54:17,080
Speaker 1: But are going to need to feel like there's a

2856
02:54:18,080 --> 02:54:20,760
Speaker 1: an actual chance of doing something because they understand the

2857
02:54:20,840 --> 02:54:24,200
Speaker 1: consequences of showing up in the street better. Um, and

2858
02:54:24,280 --> 02:54:25,800
Speaker 1: they're like, well, I don't want to do the same

2859
02:54:25,920 --> 02:54:27,920
Speaker 1: thing that I just got my ass kicked and there's

2860
02:54:27,959 --> 02:54:32,039
Speaker 1: still cops. Um, there is a decent amount of evidence

2861
02:54:32,280 --> 02:54:37,080
Speaker 1: that for kind of the long term positive impact of

2862
02:54:37,560 --> 02:54:39,360
Speaker 1: getting all those people out in the street and of

2863
02:54:39,440 --> 02:54:42,720
Speaker 1: the fact that so many more people in witnessed police

2864
02:54:42,800 --> 02:54:45,760
Speaker 1: violence with their own eyes. Um. There's a couple of

2865
02:54:45,800 --> 02:54:47,400
Speaker 1: places you can go to look at this, But I

2866
02:54:47,520 --> 02:54:50,600
Speaker 1: was I was watching going through a recent ABC News

2867
02:54:50,640 --> 02:54:55,080
Speaker 1: Washington Post poll that showed that from three, confidence that

2868
02:54:55,160 --> 02:54:58,160
Speaker 1: police treat black and white people equally fell from fifty two,

2869
02:54:58,600 --> 02:55:02,960
Speaker 1: where it was the thirty nine percent among Americans. Um,

2870
02:55:03,120 --> 02:55:06,280
Speaker 1: and confidence that yeah, and confidence the police still a

2871
02:55:06,360 --> 02:55:10,080
Speaker 1: lot like it's too it's certainly too high, but that's

2872
02:55:10,080 --> 02:55:14,160
Speaker 1: a significant change. And confidence that police were adequately trained

2873
02:55:14,200 --> 02:55:19,520
Speaker 1: to avoid use of excessive force fell from f to um. Like,

2874
02:55:19,720 --> 02:55:23,720
Speaker 1: and confidence in both of these things fell twice as

2875
02:55:23,800 --> 02:55:28,800
Speaker 1: fast from twenty three as it did from and that

2876
02:55:28,920 --> 02:55:31,760
Speaker 1: like thirty something percent number is just that is also

2877
02:55:31,800 --> 02:55:34,360
Speaker 1: just like close to like the number of people who

2878
02:55:34,400 --> 02:55:41,000
Speaker 1: are like active, like like actively hardcore racist about of

2879
02:55:41,080 --> 02:55:43,520
Speaker 1: the country are biggest. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think the

2880
02:55:43,560 --> 02:55:46,680
Speaker 1: election was real think that. Yeah. I want to quickly

2881
02:55:46,800 --> 02:55:48,959
Speaker 1: mention that, like some of those liberal folks as well,

2882
02:55:49,040 --> 02:55:52,240
Speaker 1: like like this is not we don't do like shipping

2883
02:55:52,280 --> 02:55:54,119
Speaker 1: on the lips or whatever it's use Listen, it doesn't help.

2884
02:55:54,200 --> 02:55:56,400
Speaker 1: But like a lot of those folks have been out

2885
02:55:56,480 --> 02:55:58,480
Speaker 1: doing other ship too, Like I've seen folks so I

2886
02:55:58,520 --> 02:56:01,880
Speaker 1: haven't seen since twenty like to protect trans kids, trying

2887
02:56:01,959 --> 02:56:04,160
Speaker 1: trying to stop biggest shout and get little children going

2888
02:56:04,200 --> 02:56:07,080
Speaker 1: to the pantomime ship like they they've been doing stuff,

2889
02:56:07,120 --> 02:56:09,600
Speaker 1: and and that contributes to close to people being you know,

2890
02:56:09,720 --> 02:56:12,640
Speaker 1: fatigue from other actions. A large part of what I'm

2891
02:56:12,640 --> 02:56:15,240
Speaker 1: seeing people not being willing to do anymore is like

2892
02:56:15,440 --> 02:56:19,120
Speaker 1: the same ship that they did in that stopped working, right,

2893
02:56:19,280 --> 02:56:23,480
Speaker 1: it didn't continue to be effective. Yeah yeah, And I

2894
02:56:23,560 --> 02:56:25,680
Speaker 1: think also like and this this also you know the

2895
02:56:25,720 --> 02:56:28,480
Speaker 1: s sspectors, like the weather, like the stuff that was

2896
02:56:28,560 --> 02:56:32,680
Speaker 1: happening in the very very like the first week, we're

2897
02:56:32,760 --> 02:56:34,400
Speaker 1: like I don't know, like the cops lost control of

2898
02:56:34,520 --> 02:56:36,600
Speaker 1: like the sid at the center of Chicago, right, like

2899
02:56:37,280 --> 02:56:41,120
Speaker 1: that the kind of people who did that stuff like

2900
02:56:41,600 --> 02:56:44,520
Speaker 1: aren't really like that. Those those those are those those

2901
02:56:44,680 --> 02:56:46,640
Speaker 1: that was not being done by people who were sort

2902
02:56:46,640 --> 02:56:48,800
Speaker 1: of like political liberals or whatever. That was being done

2903
02:56:48,800 --> 02:56:52,560
Speaker 1: by people who like had like very various tines, very

2904
02:56:52,680 --> 02:56:56,120
Speaker 1: tenuous connection to politics at all under normal circumstances. And

2905
02:56:56,360 --> 02:56:59,480
Speaker 1: you know, like eventually, eventually you'll get we'll see something

2906
02:56:59,520 --> 02:57:01,320
Speaker 1: like that again. I don't know, I mean it took

2907
02:57:01,360 --> 02:57:06,040
Speaker 1: like six six five or six years between like Ferguson

2908
02:57:06,240 --> 02:57:10,000
Speaker 1: and like that. That will happen again. But there's that

2909
02:57:10,320 --> 02:57:13,920
Speaker 1: kind of that that kind of stuff doesn't happen that

2910
02:57:14,080 --> 02:57:16,600
Speaker 1: Like those those like the kind of people who actually

2911
02:57:16,760 --> 02:57:19,560
Speaker 1: riot very significantly, who are not in the sort of

2912
02:57:19,640 --> 02:57:22,600
Speaker 1: like cadra of like hardcore left or organizers, like, they

2913
02:57:22,640 --> 02:57:25,480
Speaker 1: don't throw in that often. And a lot of political

2914
02:57:25,520 --> 02:57:29,240
Speaker 1: conditions have to like converge exactly correctly for it to happen,

2915
02:57:29,320 --> 02:57:30,880
Speaker 1: and it's just not going to happen most of the time.

2916
02:57:31,520 --> 02:57:33,360
Speaker 1: And that's in pressing in a lot of ways. But

2917
02:57:33,440 --> 02:57:36,280
Speaker 1: like you like that's just that's just what reality is. Yeah,

2918
02:57:36,360 --> 02:57:39,920
Speaker 1: I don't think there's been enough time between cycles in

2919
02:57:40,080 --> 02:57:42,280
Speaker 1: order for things to really pick up, because yeah, it

2920
02:57:42,360 --> 02:57:46,240
Speaker 1: hasn't required a lot of people to forget, to forget

2921
02:57:46,320 --> 02:57:48,760
Speaker 1: the brutality of what the cops did to people, and

2922
02:57:49,040 --> 02:57:53,199
Speaker 1: like and and and and and just like material conditions

2923
02:57:53,280 --> 02:57:56,879
Speaker 1: and like recovering from burnout, and it creates Like one

2924
02:57:56,920 --> 02:57:59,680
Speaker 1: thing that's been so incredible about Atlanta is the level

2925
02:57:59,720 --> 02:58:03,000
Speaker 1: of atliency because they've not they've not really stopped since

2926
02:58:03,920 --> 02:58:07,520
Speaker 1: like they've like they've they've kind of they they've they've

2927
02:58:07,600 --> 02:58:10,360
Speaker 1: kept going in a very particular way that both like

2928
02:58:10,640 --> 02:58:13,040
Speaker 1: encourages people to take care of themselves and not to

2929
02:58:13,080 --> 02:58:16,400
Speaker 1: be treated as disposable. And I think a big part

2930
02:58:16,440 --> 02:58:19,320
Speaker 1: of that is having like a multi pronct movement, Like

2931
02:58:20,120 --> 02:58:23,240
Speaker 1: the movement isn't it's not built around a singular thing

2932
02:58:23,320 --> 02:58:26,000
Speaker 1: like going out and breaking windows or even even just

2933
02:58:26,120 --> 02:58:28,640
Speaker 1: like camping in the forest. Like, the movement isn't just

2934
02:58:28,920 --> 02:58:31,360
Speaker 1: those things. There's a lot of other various aspects. So

2935
02:58:31,720 --> 02:58:34,880
Speaker 1: when you're exhausted from one single thing, you can move

2936
02:58:34,959 --> 02:58:37,080
Speaker 1: on to one of the other many aspects and like

2937
02:58:37,240 --> 02:58:41,760
Speaker 1: do that as like as your recovery um and and have.

2938
02:58:42,000 --> 02:58:43,840
Speaker 1: Having that, I think it's contributed to the level of

2939
02:58:43,879 --> 02:58:47,200
Speaker 1: resiliency that we've seen, um, but I don't think the

2940
02:58:47,320 --> 02:58:50,160
Speaker 1: rest of the States has those types of practices. Like

2941
02:58:50,320 --> 02:58:53,600
Speaker 1: people in Portland are definitely still extremely burnt out from

2942
02:58:54,240 --> 02:58:57,720
Speaker 1: from and I assume a lot of a lot of

2943
02:58:57,800 --> 02:59:01,240
Speaker 1: other cities are dealing with similar level of fatigue. One

2944
02:59:01,280 --> 02:59:03,000
Speaker 1: thing I do want to address really quickly is the

2945
02:59:03,320 --> 02:59:08,080
Speaker 1: horseshit framing of this by legacy media. Again, like the

2946
02:59:08,320 --> 02:59:11,000
Speaker 1: very fucking people who, like on the day that Derek

2947
02:59:11,120 --> 02:59:14,760
Speaker 1: Chauvin went to Joe retweeted that initial statement where Minneapolis

2948
02:59:14,800 --> 02:59:17,360
Speaker 1: p D like basically said George Floyd died of a

2949
02:59:17,440 --> 02:59:20,400
Speaker 1: heart attack. I think we had a cardiac condition or something. Um,

2950
02:59:20,959 --> 02:59:23,480
Speaker 1: the very same people who retweeted that statement said never

2951
02:59:23,520 --> 02:59:24,960
Speaker 1: again are we going to be calmed by this ship

2952
02:59:25,040 --> 02:59:28,200
Speaker 1: and now out there fucking just carrying water for the cops,

2953
02:59:28,320 --> 02:59:31,800
Speaker 1: like CNN saying that Tyry Nichols had an encounter with

2954
02:59:31,920 --> 02:59:35,320
Speaker 1: the police, Like I don't understand what it fucking takes

2955
02:59:35,360 --> 02:59:37,800
Speaker 1: for these people to understand, Like and I've been like

2956
02:59:37,959 --> 02:59:40,800
Speaker 1: I was on NBC this year trying to persuade other

2957
02:59:40,959 --> 02:59:44,640
Speaker 1: NBC journalists to maybe critically assess the claim to the police,

2958
02:59:44,680 --> 02:59:48,400
Speaker 1: and like here we are again doing the same ship again,

2959
02:59:48,680 --> 02:59:50,880
Speaker 1: and we should we should probably close out here soon.

2960
02:59:50,959 --> 02:59:52,880
Speaker 1: But one kind of final thought that I've had is

2961
02:59:53,360 --> 02:59:56,320
Speaker 1: the other another kind of crucial difference between how this

2962
02:59:56,480 --> 03:00:00,120
Speaker 1: was treated as opposed to the George Floyd videos. At

2963
03:00:00,920 --> 03:00:04,360
Speaker 1: the person who recorded the George Floyd video was like

2964
03:00:04,400 --> 03:00:08,640
Speaker 1: a bystander, Like they were just there and they posted

2965
03:00:08,720 --> 03:00:11,400
Speaker 1: that on their own accord, and it was able to

2966
03:00:11,600 --> 03:00:15,880
Speaker 1: grow to it was able to grow traction over the

2967
03:00:15,959 --> 03:00:18,720
Speaker 1: course of a few weeks kind of slowly in like

2968
03:00:19,280 --> 03:00:23,199
Speaker 1: underground um like in like underground communities, you know, people

2969
03:00:23,200 --> 03:00:25,440
Speaker 1: who are much more aware of police violence, and then

2970
03:00:25,480 --> 03:00:27,440
Speaker 1: that's the least seeped out into the mainstream. I think

2971
03:00:27,440 --> 03:00:30,280
Speaker 1: there's a difference in having that type of natural growth

2972
03:00:30,320 --> 03:00:32,480
Speaker 1: of people learning about like hey, did you see this

2973
03:00:32,560 --> 03:00:35,000
Speaker 1: fucked up thing that my friends sent me where like

2974
03:00:35,480 --> 03:00:38,160
Speaker 1: did you like Like there's that level of like, oh,

2975
03:00:38,400 --> 03:00:41,160
Speaker 1: we found this thing that is really fucked up and

2976
03:00:41,280 --> 03:00:44,680
Speaker 1: people need to care about this, versus the framing of

2977
03:00:44,920 --> 03:00:47,400
Speaker 1: the police and how they used this as like a

2978
03:00:47,480 --> 03:00:50,440
Speaker 1: world premiere of this like of this of this like

2979
03:00:50,840 --> 03:00:52,880
Speaker 1: snuff film. It's it's like that there was like a

2980
03:00:52,959 --> 03:00:57,080
Speaker 1: fucking countdown to to to to to watch the video,

2981
03:00:57,320 --> 03:01:00,800
Speaker 1: and that that immediately frames this as something to be consumed.

2982
03:01:00,959 --> 03:01:03,960
Speaker 1: That immediately frames this is something like the way to

2983
03:01:04,040 --> 03:01:07,400
Speaker 1: engage with this is to sit down and watch it

2984
03:01:07,600 --> 03:01:09,560
Speaker 1: and then you're done. Like that, then the that is

2985
03:01:09,640 --> 03:01:11,960
Speaker 1: the like they're they're they're framing this the same way

2986
03:01:12,000 --> 03:01:14,360
Speaker 1: that you would watch like a movie or like a

2987
03:01:14,480 --> 03:01:16,879
Speaker 1: music video drop like that is that is the style

2988
03:01:16,959 --> 03:01:20,400
Speaker 1: of engagement. Because this video is being published by the

2989
03:01:20,440 --> 03:01:23,280
Speaker 1: police like they are. They are they are from from

2990
03:01:23,320 --> 03:01:27,160
Speaker 1: the very start, They're controlling the way that information is distributed.

2991
03:01:27,360 --> 03:01:31,800
Speaker 1: They're controlling what information is distributed. It like creates this

2992
03:01:31,959 --> 03:01:37,080
Speaker 1: scenario where the consumption of the video itself like is

2993
03:01:37,240 --> 03:01:40,120
Speaker 1: the event as opposed to any type of like follow

2994
03:01:40,240 --> 03:01:44,480
Speaker 1: up action or protest or direct action that instead of

2995
03:01:44,560 --> 03:01:47,760
Speaker 1: that being like the action event, the action event is

2996
03:01:47,920 --> 03:01:50,960
Speaker 1: just the consumption of the video based on how it

2997
03:01:51,120 --> 03:01:54,600
Speaker 1: was hyped up as as this thing that was to

2998
03:01:54,680 --> 03:01:57,240
Speaker 1: be like officially released and you like count down for

2999
03:01:57,360 --> 03:01:58,840
Speaker 1: it and then you watch it and you're like, Okay,

3000
03:01:59,400 --> 03:02:01,880
Speaker 1: that was it, that was the thing, um, And I

3001
03:02:01,959 --> 03:02:04,720
Speaker 1: think that does just really impact it when it's like this,

3002
03:02:04,879 --> 03:02:10,440
Speaker 1: like sanctioned premier versus this thing that's spread by regular people. UM. Yeah,

3003
03:02:10,480 --> 03:02:13,800
Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think it kind of became

3004
03:02:13,840 --> 03:02:16,640
Speaker 1: this act of penance. Like you watched the video, you say,

3005
03:02:16,680 --> 03:02:19,720
Speaker 1: holy funk, that's disgusting, and then like the thing is

3006
03:02:19,720 --> 03:02:22,040
Speaker 1: already done right like that, the cops are already fired,

3007
03:02:22,080 --> 03:02:23,880
Speaker 1: So you just do your penance. You go through the

3008
03:02:23,959 --> 03:02:26,760
Speaker 1: painful thing, rather than the George Floyd thing, which was

3009
03:02:26,840 --> 03:02:28,960
Speaker 1: like nothing has been done about this. I've got this

3010
03:02:29,080 --> 03:02:31,960
Speaker 1: organically from my friend and I'm fucking furious. Oh yeah,

3011
03:02:31,959 --> 03:02:36,640
Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think it's very different. Yeah, alright,

3012
03:02:36,720 --> 03:02:38,440
Speaker 1: well I think that's probably going to do it for

3013
03:02:38,560 --> 03:02:45,800
Speaker 1: us today. Um until next time. Uh, I don't know.

3014
03:02:46,400 --> 03:02:51,280
Speaker 1: Don't don't let your city name a police elite unit

3015
03:02:51,560 --> 03:03:01,840
Speaker 1: scorpion or anything else. Yeah you can tell stuck. Yeah yeah,

3016
03:03:01,840 --> 03:03:06,520
Speaker 1: I don't have special police if. Yeah, I would prefer

3017
03:03:06,640 --> 03:03:09,520
Speaker 1: no cops. If you're going to have a special police unit,

3018
03:03:09,600 --> 03:03:12,400
Speaker 1: maybe call it like the Barney Fife Battalion or something

3019
03:03:12,520 --> 03:03:15,520
Speaker 1: like that. Um, at least at least try not to

3020
03:03:15,720 --> 03:03:21,520
Speaker 1: hype them up to be scorpions. Yeah. Um, anyway, that

3021
03:03:21,680 --> 03:03:29,040
Speaker 1: that that that that the fuck? Howeveryone it's James again

3022
03:03:29,240 --> 03:03:32,360
Speaker 1: book ending the episode, and I'm just here to ask

3023
03:03:32,400 --> 03:03:34,960
Speaker 1: you again to donate if you have the means, if

3024
03:03:34,959 --> 03:03:39,480
Speaker 1: you're able to, to relief for people in Syria who

3025
03:03:39,600 --> 03:03:43,360
Speaker 1: are obviously experiencing terrible consequences from this earthquake. The new

3026
03:03:43,440 --> 03:03:45,640
Speaker 1: cycle kind of moves on, but people's lives don't, and

3027
03:03:45,680 --> 03:03:48,320
Speaker 1: they still need your help. So a couple of plays

3028
03:03:48,360 --> 03:03:51,800
Speaker 1: you can donate. The White Helmets that's White Helmets dot org,

3029
03:03:52,080 --> 03:03:56,360
Speaker 1: slash e N for English Syrian American Medical Society Foundation,

3030
03:03:56,600 --> 03:04:01,039
Speaker 1: that's s A M S hyphen USA dot net, metsan

3031
03:04:01,080 --> 03:04:04,800
Speaker 1: San Fontiere, Doctors Without Borders and that's Doctors Without Borders

3032
03:04:04,959 --> 03:04:08,800
Speaker 1: dot org. And the Curtish Rear Question h E y

3033
03:04:08,959 --> 03:04:12,080
Speaker 1: V A S O r u K dot r G.

3034
03:04:12,480 --> 03:04:14,360
Speaker 1: Those were all great places and we'd love it if

3035
03:04:14,400 --> 03:04:24,960
Speaker 1: you could spare little money to help people out. Thanks bye, Hey,

3036
03:04:25,080 --> 03:04:28,160
Speaker 1: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

3037
03:04:28,200 --> 03:04:30,959
Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the Universe. It could

3038
03:04:31,000 --> 03:04:33,320
Speaker 1: happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For

3039
03:04:33,440 --> 03:04:36,160
Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

3040
03:04:36,240 --> 03:04:38,200
Speaker 1: zone media dot com, or check us out on the

3041
03:04:38,240 --> 03:04:40,920
Speaker 1: I Heart radio app Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen

3042
03:04:40,959 --> 03:04:43,920
Speaker 1: to podcasts, you can find sources for It could happen here,

3043
03:04:44,000 --> 03:04:47,400
Speaker 1: Updated monthly at cool Zone Media dot com slash sources.

3044
03:04:47,680 --> 03:04:48,440
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.