Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Welcome to episode number four of The Hunting Collective.
Speaker 1: I am been O'Brien coming to you from a table
Speaker 1: at my house in Austin, Texas with a beer in
Speaker 1: hand and a phone in front of me. Today we
Speaker 1: are calling the great and powerful, the one and only
Speaker 1: John Dudley. I wish John was here. He was supposed
Speaker 1: to be here, but he couldn't. At the last minute.
Speaker 1: Something came up, so I just gave him a call
Speaker 1: and we did it that way. Why should you want
Speaker 1: to listen to John Dudley, Well, the reasons are many.
Speaker 1: John is a technical expert in archery. He's an accomplished
Speaker 1: pro in target in the target world. He's the top
Speaker 1: level coach internationally, and he's one of the best bon
Speaker 1: hunters you'll ever meet. Beyond that, he's just a good guy.
Speaker 1: He's somebody you could have a beer with, Somebody you
Speaker 1: can shoot hoops with, Somebody you can hang out of
Speaker 1: the back porch and just laugh your ass off. He's
Speaker 1: one of my favorite people in the industry, along with
Speaker 1: his wife Sharon, his son Little dud I mean, the
Speaker 1: whole family is somebody you want to meet, you want
Speaker 1: to run into at a party, So I think that's
Speaker 1: always important. I think those things are are sometimes lost
Speaker 1: in these types of podcasts. But John Dudley is my friend.
Speaker 1: I love him and I hope you love him too.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately for you guys, we didn't talk too much about
Speaker 1: the technical specs of archery. We talked about values and
Speaker 1: influence and our roles in the industry and outside of
Speaker 1: the industry, and of course the grand conversation of the
Speaker 1: Grip and Gran. So hopefully you enjoy episode number four.
Speaker 1: Here's John Dudley. John Dudley, what's happening? What are you doing? Man?
Speaker 1: I am dedicating time and energy to what matters, and
Speaker 1: that is the thing collective. Oh my gosh, he said
Speaker 1: the name. He said the name of the podcast right
Speaker 1: off the bat. That's a win. That's already a win.
Speaker 1: A couple of these podcasts. I have asked the guests
Speaker 1: to describe where we are, but unfortunately we are not together.
Speaker 1: I am in a room at my house with a bar,
Speaker 1: drinking a corona. You are at your home in Iowa
Speaker 1: in a bar in a bar. Yes, yes, I literally
Speaker 1: just it was almost like a game of operations, but
Speaker 1: I put three bar chunk of ice cubes into my
Speaker 1: heady without making a noise. So I'm pretty sure I
Speaker 1: get to go to level two for being able to
Speaker 1: do this. You're you're already on level two for sure, well,
Speaker 1: at least in the in the in the general sense,
Speaker 1: we're in the same place that which is a place
Speaker 1: with beer here late at night on a Monday evening
Speaker 1: that I like, I would much rather be with you
Speaker 1: in Iowa. But in the absence of that, this will do. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. I told you before we started recording
Speaker 1: that I wanted to ask you some tough questions, um,
Speaker 1: and so let's do that. I think, Um, my experience
Speaker 1: in bow hunting has been pretty pretty gnarly. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've had more failures than I can count, both when
Speaker 1: I was a kid and then coming into my more
Speaker 1: formative years, and then even since you and I have
Speaker 1: been working together, since you been showing me what how
Speaker 1: really it is done, I've had more failures than I
Speaker 1: can think of, both in the backyard and then while
Speaker 1: hunting and then over the place. And so it always
Speaker 1: strikes me that, you know, bow hunting for the US
Speaker 1: regular focus is like a game of failure, Like you're
Speaker 1: just trying to mitigate the amount of failure that you have,
Speaker 1: UM and so, and I don't know that I've you know,
Speaker 1: I've had a lot of people say about social media
Speaker 1: and our hunting industry that we don't highlight that failure
Speaker 1: quite enough. UM. So, I guess my first question is,
Speaker 1: did you agree with that that we don't highlight the
Speaker 1: failures enough or is there a better way to subscribe
Speaker 1: to that idea? Dang, dude, that's this cool question. I
Speaker 1: actually really appreciate that one. Um. I appreciate it. Martin.
Speaker 1: Probably what you would I would know, because one of
Speaker 1: the things that I really disliked about being on TV
Speaker 1: was the parameters that the TV network put around certain
Speaker 1: people that change there beliefs and outlooks on the whole
Speaker 1: hunting community. And I really felt like a lot of
Speaker 1: the things that I believed in some of the values,
Speaker 1: and then also I don't know, just some of the
Speaker 1: things that I felt like I was most passionate about
Speaker 1: in relation to not only hunting, but also just being
Speaker 1: a a bow hunter and an archer. I actually had
Speaker 1: to change those because it was part of the guidelines
Speaker 1: to being on a network, and over the course of
Speaker 1: the six years that I was on, they slowly like
Speaker 1: kind of bent rules, Like you know, they told me, what,
Speaker 1: you can't do an educational segment for three full minutes.
Speaker 1: That's too long. And then it got to the point
Speaker 1: where it's like, wow, many more educational segments can you do?
Speaker 1: And it was also like, well, we can't have a
Speaker 1: show that doesn't show success or you can't show a
Speaker 1: shot that way because it's not necessarily ethical. But the
Speaker 1: reality was if I showed something that was real, I
Speaker 1: showed it as it was real, because I wanted to
Speaker 1: teach people the importance of real honey. And there are
Speaker 1: some people that show shirt show certain aspects of a hunt,
Speaker 1: and then they kind of they almost narrated around it
Speaker 1: because they're trying to necessarily come up with an excuse.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't I'm sure you're following me, but
Speaker 1: some people may not be following me. But it's hard
Speaker 1: to say it without throwing people under the bus. But
Speaker 1: there's times when bad shots have and and then instead
Speaker 1: of education educating people on if a bad shot happens,
Speaker 1: this is what you need to do, they try to
Speaker 1: make an excuse of you know, it wasn't really a
Speaker 1: bad shot. It just looked bad or you know, they
Speaker 1: could try to cover it up. But the same is
Speaker 1: true when it comes to an unsuccessful hunt. You know.
Speaker 1: I just came out with a short film that I
Speaker 1: did with um Andy, who is the first time bow hunter,
Speaker 1: and I think it was a really cool film because
Speaker 1: we had a tough hunt in France. But the reality
Speaker 1: is we didn't have we didn't have a kill, we
Speaker 1: didn't have you know, many people's eyes, we didn't have success.
Speaker 1: And I've got to the point where I feel like,
Speaker 1: because of social media, I have this expectation that I'm
Speaker 1: always successful, but the truth is I'm not. And I'm
Speaker 1: one of the people that I actually I actually liked
Speaker 1: to show people when I miss I'd like to show people.
Speaker 1: Um you know, I remember, And it's funny, there's like
Speaker 1: so many different subjects with this topic. It's a good topic. Um.
Speaker 1: I remember one time I had a moose hunt um
Speaker 1: in BC and I showed it and the only shot
Speaker 1: I had it was it was a legal bowl. But
Speaker 1: it was you know, it was a small bowl, you know,
Speaker 1: fairly legal, but it was a legal bowl. And I
Speaker 1: was super jacked because they had had a few tough
Speaker 1: seasons up there in BC. The first year I went.
Speaker 1: The only opening I could get up there was later
Speaker 1: in the season, so I knew the chances were pretty
Speaker 1: low as a boat hunter. As a rifle hunter, it
Speaker 1: could have filled the tag, but that as a boat hunter. Um.
Speaker 1: And then the next year it was we got rain for.
Speaker 1: I was on a I was on an eight day hunt,
Speaker 1: and we got rained for all eight d eights never
Speaker 1: saw anything. So this was my third year, going back
Speaker 1: fifth day. And so by this point I was almost
Speaker 1: two full weeks into into a moose hunt and a
Speaker 1: legal bull came in and my, you know, we were
Speaker 1: it was like one in the afternoon. We had been
Speaker 1: there since morning. We were calling, and all of a
Speaker 1: sudden this bull just came in quiet and he came in.
Speaker 1: We were actually uh in this little tree stand that
Speaker 1: we made uh in between some pine trees, kind of
Speaker 1: built a little platform. This bull comes in and gives
Speaker 1: me a a pretty good shot UM, and I had
Speaker 1: ranged I was definitely comfortable with. But then he all
Speaker 1: of a sudden started to get a smell of us,
Speaker 1: so he turned and started a quarter away and he
Speaker 1: quartered pretty art and I made I made a shop
Speaker 1: that I was comfortable with, but on camera it was
Speaker 1: a little bit far back and people were upset with
Speaker 1: the shot, and the network was trying. The network trying
Speaker 1: to tell me not to show the shop. But in
Speaker 1: reality is I wanted to show the shot because it
Speaker 1: was it was truthful to hunting. It was someone that
Speaker 1: had gone three years without a shot, and the shot
Speaker 1: presented itself. I made a shot, and I the I
Speaker 1: recovered the animal right away, and I was truthful about
Speaker 1: the fact that it was not a desirable shop, but
Speaker 1: it happened. And I think that stuff is really really
Speaker 1: needed in our industry. And I think that when a
Speaker 1: SHOT's made poorly, like well, when you and I hunted together, Um,
Speaker 1: I had gone the whole year with making great jobs,
Speaker 1: but then all of a sudden, when you and I
Speaker 1: were together, that was a book that I really wanted.
Speaker 1: He came in and I mean you were there, came
Speaker 1: straight to us. I drew back before he got to us,
Speaker 1: because I knew I'd never get drawn when he was
Speaker 1: under us, and then literally stopped behind that tree waiting
Speaker 1: on that dough. And I mean, I don't even know
Speaker 1: how long has at full draw. But then literally as
Speaker 1: soon as he turned I didn't know it turned to run,
Speaker 1: but as soon as he turned to give me the shot,
Speaker 1: I shot, and he turned and was kind of starting
Speaker 1: to go, So I hit him a little bit far back,
Speaker 1: and even though we assumed that he was trackable and expired,
Speaker 1: I was totally not willing myself to risk it, so
Speaker 1: I didn't. And you know we talked about that on camera. Uh.
Speaker 1: You and I even had the discussion. You're like, I
Speaker 1: think you should go, and I said, I don't know, man,
Speaker 1: I mean, I know you think I should, but I
Speaker 1: think deep down I shouldn't. And as hunters success, no success,
Speaker 1: when to track, when not to track? Those are true.
Speaker 1: Those are a hundred percent true backbone elements to our
Speaker 1: bow hunting or hunting. Social media and TV have changed.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that was a long way to
Speaker 1: get back to your question, but social media have changed
Speaker 1: those two true elements to our sport, and it's it's unfortunate. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree, because it's necessary. Well, there's it's there's two
Speaker 1: ways to think about it, right, I mean you're talking
Speaker 1: about success and failure in both macro and micro elements, right,
Speaker 1: Like the macro element, where did that air land on
Speaker 1: that animal? Was it a ten out of ten or
Speaker 1: was it an eight out of ten? As far as
Speaker 1: the effectiveness to kill that animal and then success in
Speaker 1: all the other decisions you made afterwards, and really all
Speaker 1: the decisions made before, and how do you depict all
Speaker 1: those things when you're being asked to synthesize it down
Speaker 1: into a smaller package, or even in the case of
Speaker 1: like an instant story on social media, being able to
Speaker 1: like show it in little snippets when everyone knows it's
Speaker 1: not you know, that's not happening live. You can still
Speaker 1: distill it and decide what the show and what not
Speaker 1: to show. So you're right, I mean, I think when
Speaker 1: you're talking about the ethics of telling the story inside
Speaker 1: of its success or failure, it's really hard to decide
Speaker 1: how to do that and what's effective. And I'm not
Speaker 1: sure that if you just if everyone just stuck a
Speaker 1: live camera in their bo and started posting posting those
Speaker 1: things to social media that that would be good either, um,
Speaker 1: because everybody has different motivations for doing certain things, and
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes editing is helpful. So you know, I
Speaker 1: think that that question of where did that air land?
Speaker 1: How did it get there? But then immediately after, what
Speaker 1: did you do as an important one for hunters? And
Speaker 1: how many times you know, did you illustrate that when
Speaker 1: you were you know, when the Outdoor channel or sports
Speaker 1: this channel, how many times were able both with the
Speaker 1: amount of time you had to discuss those topics, um
Speaker 1: or that, like you said, the restrictions that were I
Speaker 1: was put on you by the network. Yeah, well, I
Speaker 1: can't agree more. Man, there's no question, there's no question
Speaker 1: as good as as good as social media is that
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's an enabler, but it's the endrance
Speaker 1: at the same time. I guess that's like a lot
Speaker 1: of things in life. But you know, one of the
Speaker 1: cool things about social media for me is that social
Speaker 1: media actually gives me the ability to show truth and
Speaker 1: especially live feats. Um. I've told this to I've told
Speaker 1: this to a few friends. I told it to to Rogan.
Speaker 1: I said, because Joe, you know, Joe is he's the
Speaker 1: perfect example of a new bou hunter because he's really
Speaker 1: thirsty to like soak everything in. Whereas you and I
Speaker 1: we've been around a long time to where we almost
Speaker 1: when some people start to talk, we almost like this
Speaker 1: like freaking shield goes up like, Okay, we've heard this
Speaker 1: guy hundred times. Um, you know we kind of we
Speaker 1: already have these whether it's good or bad. We have
Speaker 1: these automatic phil ER's that kind of shoot up because
Speaker 1: you know, been there, done that type of thing. Whereas
Speaker 1: Joe's like he's a new bill hunter. He's thirt like
Speaker 1: he wants to hear it all, and then he goes
Speaker 1: to people he respects and says, hey, did you see this?
Speaker 1: What do you think about it? And he's watched a
Speaker 1: few Live He's where he's like, dude, if you heard
Speaker 1: this guy. I mean, this guy seems like nonsense, And
Speaker 1: I say, hey, this is where for me, Network TV
Speaker 1: and Live they separate the cream of the crop, Like
Speaker 1: it feeds into my wheelhouse because I try to only
Speaker 1: talk about things that I feel like I have the
Speaker 1: ability to educate in and and a comfort level to
Speaker 1: where I can either do it live or I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna do it where it is some people they want
Speaker 1: to have this image or a portrayal of who they
Speaker 1: are or what they can do, but the reality is
Speaker 1: when they're live, they may not be able to do that.
Speaker 1: So there's there's yin and yang with social media. But in.
Speaker 1: It's in the same sense and on the same I guess, uh,
Speaker 1: wave length of what I think you're trying to do
Speaker 1: with your podcast is it's also powerful for the message
Speaker 1: of hunting, but likewise it can instantly destroy it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: now you're right. I mean that's I mean, it's a
Speaker 1: partially really is it is a power. I mean we
Speaker 1: literally have this tool. You know, we we have the
Speaker 1: ringing right now, right, We've got the ringing power. I
Speaker 1: mean live social media is freaking We've got golumns ring
Speaker 1: in our hand. And it's like, okay, some of these
Speaker 1: freaking humans can put this sucker on and just tear
Speaker 1: ship up. And some of them can put it on
Speaker 1: and just literally suppressed most of the negativity that's destroying
Speaker 1: our industry. But it's the sad part about it, or
Speaker 1: the scary part about it. Not necessarily the sad part,
Speaker 1: but the scary part about it is there's no filter
Speaker 1: to who grabbed that suck here, Like everybody has the
Speaker 1: ring and someone can instantly do something that destroys our
Speaker 1: industry or crumbles the company or you know, absolutely pummels
Speaker 1: of company sales. I mean, there's a lot of different
Speaker 1: things that can happen, or you can have someone that
Speaker 1: portrays themselves elves in a fashion to where it genuinely
Speaker 1: sparks interest to what are these guys doing. Like, these
Speaker 1: guys are passionate, they're freaking going out, they're working, they're
Speaker 1: they're like they're totally investing sweat equity into this thing
Speaker 1: that they're passionate about, and then they're consuming it and
Speaker 1: they've got like the purest literally the purest of fuel
Speaker 1: there is and they're freaking just like rampaging about it.
Speaker 1: So it's a it's a it's a really really it
Speaker 1: is a complex double edged sword man. Yeah, and that
Speaker 1: makes it a tough topic to even to even try
Speaker 1: to simplify into you know, whatever hour or two hours
Speaker 1: that we have to talk here. I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: you could start with the great point that you made.
Speaker 1: Everyone has the power, right, so everyone that is listening
Speaker 1: into this or um that has the ability to you know,
Speaker 1: plug their basic information into some forms on the internet
Speaker 1: suddenly can a massive following for whatever reason, those people
Speaker 1: desire to follow that person, and then they can exert
Speaker 1: influence based on that following. And that is a crazy idea.
Speaker 1: And you know, a great example is is Rogan. I mean,
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan has been I don't know what how you
Speaker 1: would qualify, but I would say he's been the biggest
Speaker 1: influence on hunting that I've seen since I've been alive. Um, yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I mean on different levels. I would say, I would
Speaker 1: say Bill Jordan, yeah one two decades ago, and I
Speaker 1: would say Joe Rogan is a completely different like form
Speaker 1: of that. Yeah. Well I came up, I came up
Speaker 1: on Bill Jordan's and he was just like this window
Speaker 1: into hunting that no one else had, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: there wasn't that many voice is whenever Real Tree, Monster
Speaker 1: Bucks was coming out. I mean you had a few
Speaker 1: DVDs here there, or a few magazines you can subscribe to,
Speaker 1: but there was just a limited number of voices, which
Speaker 1: you know was good and bad. It made it easier
Speaker 1: to stand out, but it made it more important to
Speaker 1: be respectable and respected. Um. Now we have all these voices,
Speaker 1: as we've said, there's millions of voices out there talking
Speaker 1: about hunting, and it's that much harder to be, you know,
Speaker 1: in that ball of noise, to stand out and be heard.
Speaker 1: And when somebody like Joe steps into the arena with
Speaker 1: that powerful following already and starts to just evolve his
Speaker 1: passion for bo hunting the way he has in the
Speaker 1: public eye. I mean, it's been a great story to
Speaker 1: watch that, So, you know, I think what you can
Speaker 1: do specifically but knock on and your in your knowledge
Speaker 1: is all good. And you know, another question I was
Speaker 1: thinking about on them drive home from work for you
Speaker 1: was like, how do you take your knowledge and the
Speaker 1: things that you know about our tree? You won't have
Speaker 1: to list off your resume, but hopefully everyone listening kind
Speaker 1: of knows. How do you take your knowledge and distill
Speaker 1: it and get it out there um as effectively as
Speaker 1: somebody who may have, you know, have a negative slant
Speaker 1: for hunting. Well, I don't really know the right way
Speaker 1: to answer that. I know, I guess you know. There
Speaker 1: are two things that were important to talk about. Their
Speaker 1: one was Joe has been very very fortunate to where
Speaker 1: he came across some very very good people right away
Speaker 1: to where I mean between Runella, Cam you remy me.
Speaker 1: I mean, he came across some people that were the
Speaker 1: right people to where when he got into this he
Speaker 1: saw all the sides that are the right side for
Speaker 1: having true compelling argument to the opposite side, okay, whereas
Speaker 1: he could have came in and been introduced to, you know,
Speaker 1: almost our opposite to where he may have came in
Speaker 1: and just said, Man, I don't know, this is a
Speaker 1: bunch of freaking you know whatever. You know, these these
Speaker 1: guys are what what media portrays them as. And I'm
Speaker 1: not really into that. I mean, that could have happened easily,
Speaker 1: no question um for me. I've just got to the
Speaker 1: point where, honestly, I don't and I'm I don't know.
Speaker 1: I feel like I've never wanted to be bigger than
Speaker 1: I am, So I'm not like I'm not fighting for
Speaker 1: it to the point where it doesn't I don't feel
Speaker 1: like I'm fighting for it to where it becomes where
Speaker 1: it comes off authentic. I get authentic information that is
Speaker 1: relevant to who I am and what I'm passionate about,
Speaker 1: and I want people two associate with me, or follow me,
Speaker 1: or theoretically just come along for this ride with me
Speaker 1: that are passionate about the same things. And I don't
Speaker 1: go outside of that freaking network, man, I mean, I don't.
Speaker 1: I still I'll still do a podcast and I'll have
Speaker 1: someone that will come on and say, man, I shot
Speaker 1: with you at an A s A tournament twenty years
Speaker 1: ago and just loved it on that target, and I've
Speaker 1: still been following you since. I mean, those are the people.
Speaker 1: Those are the only people I care about in this ride,
Speaker 1: because that's what I believe in, and that's what I'm
Speaker 1: passionate about myself. I don't I don't try to go
Speaker 1: outside of that. So I don't know, it's hard. There's
Speaker 1: there are certain people that aren't wired that way, and
Speaker 1: obviously they can come into this thing and they can create,
Speaker 1: you know, they can instantly, they can instantly. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean I always try to I always try to
Speaker 1: approach things that I say thinking about Okay, I don't
Speaker 1: wanna hurt someone else's feelings, even people I don't know. UM.
Speaker 1: But to go back a little bit, when I was
Speaker 1: still working at Matthews I remember, which is a large
Speaker 1: archery company. For those of you listening who aren't like
Speaker 1: into archery, UM, Matthews was a was a very large
Speaker 1: archery company at the time. We're number one in bow
Speaker 1: hunting for you know, for sales. We're in company twice
Speaker 1: since when I was there, and I remember one time. Um,
Speaker 1: And back then, you know, social media wasn't out, dude.
Speaker 1: We got like you would open envelopes and people would
Speaker 1: have pictures like their pictures of animals they shot, and
Speaker 1: you would go through pictures, which you were the same
Speaker 1: when you were an editor. You would go through pictures
Speaker 1: of stuff people's shot and then decide what goes in
Speaker 1: your catalog. And sometimes we would open an envelope and
Speaker 1: it would be a guy that would have one elk
Speaker 1: and one mulei, and you'd be like, oh, yeah, a
Speaker 1: pretty good year. And then you open the next envelope
Speaker 1: and here's a guy that has an elk, a mulei,
Speaker 1: a big horn, a turkey, forty dogs like all this stuff.
Speaker 1: And I remember one time my boss at the time,
Speaker 1: Joel Maxfield UM, which I'm sure you probably know Joel Um,
Speaker 1: he said, you know, really, to make an aim for
Speaker 1: yourself in the hunting industry, all you need is time
Speaker 1: and money. Yeah, that's all you need. But I mean, honestly,
Speaker 1: that is like if you want to if you want
Speaker 1: to shoot a grand slamp any time and money, if
Speaker 1: you want to shoot the Grand slam and sheet, any
Speaker 1: time and money. But there's a there's a few guys
Speaker 1: that like fall between those lines, that are just absolutely hardcore,
Speaker 1: passionate guys that are just engulfed in it. I mean
Speaker 1: guys like Remy right. I mean, these are guys that
Speaker 1: literally there, their time is a hundred percent, all of
Speaker 1: their time of their life has been dedicated to hunting.
Speaker 1: They've been out, They've literally left their jobs because they
Speaker 1: wanted to be out the entire elk season. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean Remy told me recently, Remy Warren, that he
Speaker 1: there's years past that he hunted three hundred days a year.
Speaker 1: I mean, between guiding and personal trips, three hundred days
Speaker 1: a year. And I'm sure I'm sure you've hit close
Speaker 1: to that before. I know, I know, yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I can't say that. I can't. I can't say that,
Speaker 1: you know, I would say there's certainly days where I've
Speaker 1: I've trained, and I've trained and and practiced and prepared
Speaker 1: for that. But to be out there for that, I mean,
Speaker 1: there's guys like that that have just the the perfect
Speaker 1: voice for the industry. But those guys are not the
Speaker 1: ones that are looking for attention. Those aren't the ones
Speaker 1: that are trying to be the next social media guy.
Speaker 1: So you know, that's what gets really tough, is you know,
Speaker 1: when you kind of asked the questions or you know,
Speaker 1: what does social media changed or what does you know?
Speaker 1: How many of your followers are you know, truly following
Speaker 1: what you're doing. Man, it's for me, I'm happy with
Speaker 1: content with where I'm at, but there is there are
Speaker 1: two very very clear paths that are being taken by
Speaker 1: mainstream hunters, and they're you know, I don't I don't
Speaker 1: want to put myself necessarily in the same category as
Speaker 1: Remy because Primy and I are different. But I think
Speaker 1: it would be safe to say that Remy and I
Speaker 1: don't care what mainstream thinks us as much as we
Speaker 1: want to to at least voice are heartfelt opinion on that. Again,
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's no that makes sense. I
Speaker 1: mean it goes back to the point you made about
Speaker 1: how do you determine who's an expert hunter or how
Speaker 1: do you determine who's a voice to be listened to,
Speaker 1: or how do you determine who is you know, the
Speaker 1: term that we use in marketing all the time, who
Speaker 1: is an influencer? Because what what type of influence are
Speaker 1: you looking for? What type of person um are you after?
Speaker 1: And I think that's what drew me to you first,
Speaker 1: just because you know, you could definitely see you from
Speaker 1: listening to your podcast or from um following you on
Speaker 1: social that there's a depth of knowledge there that just
Speaker 1: isn't there with anyone else that I've ever experienced or met.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that that's the ultimate question, right, Like how
Speaker 1: do you in a in a pursuit like hunting that's
Speaker 1: a democracy. Anyone can do it as long as they
Speaker 1: do it leagally and have a license and have some
Speaker 1: level of skill to to get it done. Anyone can
Speaker 1: do it, which means anyone, like you said, with time
Speaker 1: and money, could could be um over and above everyone else.
Speaker 1: If you track success based on how many species you've killed,
Speaker 1: or how many animals you've killed, or how many inches
Speaker 1: a bone you've collected over the years, I mean, that's
Speaker 1: the that's the question, right. I mean, because you've killed
Speaker 1: every species on the planet, does that make you a
Speaker 1: better hunter than than John Dudley you just hunts in
Speaker 1: Iowa every year, or or Remy Warren who maybe sticks
Speaker 1: home in Nevada. I mean, what is to you? What's
Speaker 1: the qualifier? How would you qualify that an even tougher question.
Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna say something I don't even think
Speaker 1: I've told you even as a friendness. But a few
Speaker 1: years ago, and I won't see who it was, but
Speaker 1: a few years ago, I had a sponsor of mine
Speaker 1: that in a phone call compared me to another person
Speaker 1: within our street that also haunts and also shoots. And
Speaker 1: they made the comparison to me, and I remember them saying, like,
Speaker 1: you know, do you really put yourself on their level?
Speaker 1: I mean, they said, you know, right now they're going
Speaker 1: for the Grand Slam? I mean, are you even doing that?
Speaker 1: And what was so strange about the conversation is at
Speaker 1: the beginning of the conversation, the conversation started about what
Speaker 1: it would cost to sponsor my show when it was
Speaker 1: on network, And so during that conversation somehow it got
Speaker 1: moved over to will you can't be worth that much
Speaker 1: because this person is going out and doing a Grand Slam.
Speaker 1: You're not even doing that? And I remember I said, dude,
Speaker 1: do you realize that extra sponsorship money that they ask
Speaker 1: for is because they're doing that? Like, would you rather
Speaker 1: pay less for someone that is literally doing what's what
Speaker 1: they're passionate about and what I feel personally is good
Speaker 1: for the industry, or are you going to pay the
Speaker 1: person that is literally their investment. Is I am going
Speaker 1: to be the next person to a grand Slam? I mean,
Speaker 1: it was this. It was just his most awkward conversation,
Speaker 1: and it was at that moment I realized, this person
Speaker 1: is not not a fit for me Like this, I
Speaker 1: don't care even if they're offering me something. I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna go anywhere with this conversation because if you're comparing
Speaker 1: me to someone that's going to go on a fifty
Speaker 1: sheep hunt, I cannot, Like, that's not on my map.
Speaker 1: I've got a kid that's getting ready to go on kidting,
Speaker 1: ready to go to college. You know, if I think
Speaker 1: a fifty grand, I'm thinking that's two years of college
Speaker 1: and I'm not thinking do I want to go shoot sheep?
Speaker 1: But yet you're comparing me to someone that is going
Speaker 1: to be getting a super slam versus someone that's literally
Speaker 1: trying to just get by and educate. So I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's it is a It is a very weird thing
Speaker 1: that our industry is in. We I don't want to
Speaker 1: make it about killing, but yet we do. It's am
Speaker 1: I right, It's a weird paradox. It's like, well, we
Speaker 1: don't want to make it about killing, but would you
Speaker 1: kill this year? Like how much would you really kill?
Speaker 1: And honestly that this is the part I haven't told you.
Speaker 1: So since then, a lot of my um a lot
Speaker 1: of my antlers that I've had in the house, I've
Speaker 1: actually been I've been having them cut up to just
Speaker 1: to make Boe grips for my followers, because it was
Speaker 1: at that moment where I'm like, you know, what if
Speaker 1: all these crabs sitting around in here is coming down
Speaker 1: to this, I don't want to look at it. That's
Speaker 1: powerful that you were so changed by those interactions that
Speaker 1: you felt like, you know, that the tokens of hunting
Speaker 1: in your house had to go away because you didn't
Speaker 1: want to feel like, you know, maybe you're cheating the
Speaker 1: experience like some other people do. I mean, that's crazy
Speaker 1: to me. And and the other point you made that
Speaker 1: I feel like it's elevated is that like some of
Speaker 1: the animals you you happen to live in Iowa, um
Speaker 1: were white tail hunting is if you're a resident, it's
Speaker 1: pretty inclusive. If you have property and you can buy
Speaker 1: a hunting license. Um, you can go hunt white tailed deer.
Speaker 1: But we have these other animals that are exclusive because
Speaker 1: of a myriad of factors. Like a sheep is an
Speaker 1: exclusive animal. You either have to draw that tag or
Speaker 1: you have to have a lot of money to pay
Speaker 1: someone else to take you and then go. So you
Speaker 1: happen to live in an area where the white tailed
Speaker 1: deer is this inclusive animal, where everybody basically in America
Speaker 1: could go hunt them if they choose to. Someone else
Speaker 1: uses money to go and chase an exclusive animal, and
Speaker 1: somehow that exclusivity draws them praise. Whereas you put the
Speaker 1: time into your land. You have to build the property
Speaker 1: like you have out there in Iowa. Um, and somehow
Speaker 1: someone who shoots a big ram is better than you
Speaker 1: at the pursuit, which is kind of silly to me.
Speaker 1: And I could see how that silliness would make you
Speaker 1: want to run from it a little bit. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a but the same in this and what's weird
Speaker 1: is on the same on the same exact hand, I'm
Speaker 1: sitting there fully appreciating the amount of work that it
Speaker 1: goes in to get one of those things like if
Speaker 1: they have a tag. It's not easy, you know it.
Speaker 1: So those are freaking tough hunts. I mean, you know
Speaker 1: when you went and shot your blue sheet, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm never gonna go shoot a blue sheet. I mean
Speaker 1: unless unless someone hears this podcast and it's like, wow,
Speaker 1: I want to shoot the blue sheet, but I need
Speaker 1: John Double to go with me. Well, I mean that
Speaker 1: would be the only time I would go. But I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna ever shoot a blue sheet. But who I know.
Speaker 1: I know the amount of baby wife you went through
Speaker 1: the shoot one, and I mean in the in the
Speaker 1: same sense I can appreciate listen that is and earned species,
Speaker 1: I get it, but it's it's just really funny when
Speaker 1: the corporate part of the hunting industry views that as
Speaker 1: a measuring stick. That's what It's really really tough. And honestly,
Speaker 1: when you called me about about Yetti, I don't know
Speaker 1: if you remember this, but I just said, I don't know, dude,
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm totally late to this ball game
Speaker 1: because I literally felt like I was the only outdoor
Speaker 1: person that was not sponsored by Yetti. And I was
Speaker 1: truthful in the fact of I don't know if I
Speaker 1: want to be the last person like come on the
Speaker 1: YETI party train, because you know I want to. I
Speaker 1: would really love for people, at least my followers. I
Speaker 1: would love them to see me go to Yetti because
Speaker 1: I was passionate about it, and not because of the industry.
Speaker 1: He was already there, So that was all I mean.
Speaker 1: And do you remember our conversation about that. Absolutely absolutely
Speaker 1: that was more of a worry for me. I'm like, listen,
Speaker 1: I just want to make sure that my true passion
Speaker 1: and my true usage of the product is clear and
Speaker 1: transparent to the people that follows what I'm doing, because
Speaker 1: I don't want to just be on a bandwagon. I
Speaker 1: want it has to be authentic for me. Yeah. Absolutely, well,
Speaker 1: and back to the blue sheet point like, you're pent
Speaker 1: right in that too, And I don't I don't want
Speaker 1: ever to come across like, hey, if you hunt a sheep,
Speaker 1: you have to be rich to have a bunch of um,
Speaker 1: you know, time on your hands. That's not that's not
Speaker 1: to say that the action of sheep hunting isn't isn't
Speaker 1: ridiculously tough, And anybody who shot a grand slam of
Speaker 1: anything has to have more ability than the average hunter,
Speaker 1: much more ability than the average hunter. So and in
Speaker 1: that way you earn it. Um. It's just hard when
Speaker 1: you whip out the measuring stick, like you said, that's hard,
Speaker 1: it's hard to figure that, Um, Which parts do you measure?
Speaker 1: Which parts do you discount? How do you figure all
Speaker 1: that out? Um? You know the same way with with
Speaker 1: being sponsored by a company, Which which parts of that
Speaker 1: connection do you take in? Which parts maybe do you discount?
Speaker 1: Especially in your situation. And and that's just a tough
Speaker 1: that's a tough road to home, um, and a good
Speaker 1: issue to to think about. I always think about that,
Speaker 1: Like if am I a better hunter because I went
Speaker 1: and shot that blue sheep? I don't think so. No, UM,
Speaker 1: I would say you are. I would say you learn
Speaker 1: stuff there that I've never been able to experience because
Speaker 1: I've never been in that element. Yeah, yeah, I know
Speaker 1: you better hunter. I can tell you you're a better
Speaker 1: hunter because you've experienced something cover than I've ever experienced.
Speaker 1: But but I know what you're saying at the same
Speaker 1: time too, you know. Yeah, when it comes to my reputation,
Speaker 1: like am I do I hold that up as the
Speaker 1: reason why someone should ask me for my opinion? That's
Speaker 1: not No, I don't at all. It was you're putting
Speaker 1: a situation. I was lucky enough to be putting that situation,
Speaker 1: and then I was even luckier to have you know,
Speaker 1: gutted it out and got it done. I mean those
Speaker 1: so it's hard to bring that back into an industry
Speaker 1: and try to shape those stories in a way that
Speaker 1: it's supposed to, you know, shape me as a hunter.
Speaker 1: It's because kind of it's it's a weird echo chamber
Speaker 1: that we get in. Um, you know, would would the
Speaker 1: grip and grin of me and that sheep somehow put
Speaker 1: on a billboard people, Oh my gosh, there's been or Brian,
Speaker 1: which we should we should really follow him and listen
Speaker 1: to what he says. He shot a blue sheep like
Speaker 1: and maybe not? Am I better personally for it? Yeah? Sure?
Speaker 1: But does it mean someth I should listen to what
Speaker 1: I have to say. No, it should be a whole package,
Speaker 1: much like you know, your whole package started when you
Speaker 1: were a young man, and you went through many tournaments
Speaker 1: and many failures and many successes, and you build up
Speaker 1: an expertise and now here you are someone with so
Speaker 1: much to share. Um, that's why it's important to be
Speaker 1: connected to brands and to your audience. That that's why
Speaker 1: those things are that's why those things are important, not
Speaker 1: just that one giant Bucky kill, but the totality of
Speaker 1: what you've done. Yeah, yeah, do you I've got two
Speaker 1: questions for you. Can I do that? Yeah? Please? Please
Speaker 1: spin the table. One thing that I struggle with is
Speaker 1: when I'm at these shows, people come up to me
Speaker 1: and and they're super passionate because they're trying to get
Speaker 1: into the industry, or they're you know, they've got this
Speaker 1: vision of what they want to do, and they come
Speaker 1: up to you and they're like, hey, check this out.
Speaker 1: We're starting you know, such and such, and it just
Speaker 1: it gets really hard to listen to I don't know
Speaker 1: if I'm saying this the right way, but it gets
Speaker 1: really hard to to listen to everybody's idea when they're
Speaker 1: trying to kind of make a pitch for how to
Speaker 1: get their leg in the industry, when a lot of
Speaker 1: times it's clear at the very get go that the
Speaker 1: way that they're trying to come in it really isn't
Speaker 1: from It really isn't because they're wanting to get in it.
Speaker 1: You know, they're not wanting to come in to grow things.
Speaker 1: They're wanting to come in because they're really wanting to
Speaker 1: just you know, they're wanting to create their own image.
Speaker 1: And it's sometimes it's hard because you know, I feel
Speaker 1: almost guilty by shutting them out mentally almost too fast.
Speaker 1: How do you, I mean, how do you feel about
Speaker 1: that or deal with that? I mean, do you feel
Speaker 1: like do you feel like there's a lot of people
Speaker 1: trying to get in it for the wrong reasons? Or
Speaker 1: and I guess, how do you what's your filth? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a good question. I mean every I would say.
Speaker 1: The first thing I always try to think of is
Speaker 1: I respect that they're this person is coming to me
Speaker 1: with this like that. To me, I have to, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of peel away what they're saying and try to
Speaker 1: think of the angle they're coming from, Like I should
Speaker 1: be grateful that anyone walks up to me and says,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm trying to get in, how do how
Speaker 1: does it happen? Or I'm trying to get in? Can
Speaker 1: you help me get in? Or can I earn your
Speaker 1: um in the case of me, marketing dollars in the
Speaker 1: case of you, just advice. So that's the first thing
Speaker 1: I try to think of, And man, I slip on
Speaker 1: that all the time. Like you said, when somebody's talking
Speaker 1: and I know that, you know they're not coming from
Speaker 1: the angle that I appreciate, or maybe that they're a
Speaker 1: little bit misled. I always I catch myself always just
Speaker 1: shutting it off and just going through the motion. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: here's a card for someone else to talk to. Try
Speaker 1: to be incura, but just get him out of your face.
Speaker 1: I think that's probably only natural, just because the amount
Speaker 1: of that that you see and that I see just
Speaker 1: in my in my career. Um, I think that's only natural.
Speaker 1: But I would say this year at the A T
Speaker 1: A Show, I was really surprised at the number of
Speaker 1: people that were looking for instant fame that we're looking for,
Speaker 1: or had had believe that they had garnered it just
Speaker 1: based on the amount of people that were following them
Speaker 1: or the other companies that were supporting them, and weren't
Speaker 1: there to tell me their story, you know, how they
Speaker 1: got to the point where they are and where they
Speaker 1: want to go and how they hope to get there,
Speaker 1: because I think those are the three key points. Um,
Speaker 1: they had lost the ability just to tell their own
Speaker 1: story and be passionate about that story. Um, they were
Speaker 1: just telling me what they thought I needed to hear
Speaker 1: to give them money. Um, yet he's money as a ghost.
Speaker 1: So I think maybe that's there's a little bit of
Speaker 1: a distortion from those from some people in the industry
Speaker 1: that like, you can, how do I become an influencer,
Speaker 1: rather than how do I tell my story? Then maybe
Speaker 1: one day I will become an influencer. Maybe if I
Speaker 1: tell my story the right way and people watch me
Speaker 1: grow and watch me learn and fail and succeed, and
Speaker 1: and they do that via social media, then one day
Speaker 1: I'll be in a position where I can be an influencer.
Speaker 1: Whereas like, how can I get a bunch of followers
Speaker 1: and have some sock company give me money from wearing
Speaker 1: their socks and putting and putting putting my feet on Instagram?
Speaker 1: Which I saw recently. Um, there's a there's an unnamed
Speaker 1: sock company that is sponsoring social media influencers and then
Speaker 1: putting people are putting their feet on the Internet. It's
Speaker 1: a bad trend, man, It's a bad trend. Man. I
Speaker 1: put the picture my feet one time after my Alberta
Speaker 1: hunt and some people. Their comments made me never want
Speaker 1: to post that picture again, I mean, cancel social media
Speaker 1: just to never see a picture like this again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, so, I don't know. I'm not sure that
Speaker 1: I know the answer to that question, other than that
Speaker 1: I first tried to appreciate what where the person is
Speaker 1: coming from and connect with them in some way, having
Speaker 1: you know, there was somebody in my life who heard
Speaker 1: my UM story and absolutely connected with it and listen.
Speaker 1: So I try to do that. But then also at
Speaker 1: the same time, um, you know, time is valuable, so
Speaker 1: people need to understand that, and they need to understand
Speaker 1: that you really gotta think hard before you brochia conversation
Speaker 1: like that, especially in a trade show environment. But I
Speaker 1: would you can encourage everybody to go for whatever their
Speaker 1: dreams are. But well, that's a that's a really good perspective.
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess I never looked at it from
Speaker 1: that way. I should. I definitely like the idea of,
Speaker 1: you know, trying to step back and saying, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: this person is asked me because it's of importance to them,
Speaker 1: which I think is very, very probably the most important
Speaker 1: part of that UM. But yeah, I don't I mean
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm being totally transparent about our conversation.
Speaker 1: Some of all this stuff that we're talking about is related,
Speaker 1: because sometimes when I'm talking about things, or even when
Speaker 1: I'm having conversations about people, sometimes I'm worried if I'm
Speaker 1: coming off as that person to where they're just you know,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm always like conscious of Okay, am I being
Speaker 1: looked at? Is this person that's like trying to make
Speaker 1: it an industry? Because I mean I do even though
Speaker 1: some people say I've made an industry, in my mind,
Speaker 1: I'm still just like everyone else. I mean, I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm no different than you. I don't feel like
Speaker 1: I'm a Joe Rogan. I feel like I'm no different
Speaker 1: than you, feeling I'm no different than Remy. I feel
Speaker 1: like we're walking around that show and you know, we're
Speaker 1: all still trying to, you know, to trying to voice
Speaker 1: our opinion on what we feel like is good for
Speaker 1: the industry or good for the you know, the people
Speaker 1: out there that are hunting or shooting or you know.
Speaker 1: I feel like I still have I'm still trying to
Speaker 1: like give my message out about what I feel like
Speaker 1: people should do too to overcome target panic or things
Speaker 1: like that, and I don't, I don't feel like I
Speaker 1: don't know. I guess I don't see myself as being
Speaker 1: a person that is on the pedestal board. I don't
Speaker 1: have to fight for that. Still, so sometimes when I
Speaker 1: walk around there, I do feel uncomfortable because I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't I don't want to be putting this corner
Speaker 1: where people aren't really listening to what I'm saying. Think
Speaker 1: about how think about how strange that environment is too.
Speaker 1: I was thinking about that this year walking around a
Speaker 1: t A specifically, like for you, UM and guys like
Speaker 1: Cam and Remy and people that are you know that
Speaker 1: are influencers that are seen that way by both the
Speaker 1: public and then also UM companies brands. You you live
Speaker 1: your daily life, right, You're in Iowa, You're you're working hard,
Speaker 1: you're putting out content, You're you're working on your farm,
Speaker 1: You're doing all this stuff. And that's a relatively normal
Speaker 1: life like your outlets of the world of social media.
Speaker 1: And that's great, I mean, that's that's a great way,
Speaker 1: a great prism for people to see you in. But
Speaker 1: then when you walk into this giant exhibit hall with
Speaker 1: ten ft tall pictures of the same people that you
Speaker 1: just think are your friends and the and you know,
Speaker 1: billboards with faces on them that you just like to
Speaker 1: hang out with and have a beer, and signings with
Speaker 1: lines down the block for somebody who you just you know,
Speaker 1: worked out with a couple of hours ago. Like it
Speaker 1: just it becomes this weird feeling of there's me just
Speaker 1: in my normal life, and then there's like influence for
Speaker 1: me that has to be a certain way. And I'm
Speaker 1: sure that's weird for you. I mean, it doesn't happen
Speaker 1: to me, and I would be weird for me. So
Speaker 1: I'm sure when you see yourself as just a normal
Speaker 1: guy fighting to to tell people this your own story
Speaker 1: and the things you're you care about, then you walk
Speaker 1: into a room and you're being you know, you're being
Speaker 1: put up as an icon in some way, that's weird
Speaker 1: because in that room every booth has a giant billboards
Speaker 1: with these faces on it and and ladies too, and
Speaker 1: you become something I think maybe a little bit different
Speaker 1: than than what you know, how you see yourself. Is
Speaker 1: that is that right? Or am I just talking bullshit?
Speaker 1: And you're not exempt? And I'll say that because you
Speaker 1: know when I was when I was in control of
Speaker 1: a big marketing budget, and when I was you know,
Speaker 1: international sales and marketing manager at Matthews. Do you have
Speaker 1: the same You're you're still on you know, you're still
Speaker 1: that guy, just kind of at a different position. Instead
Speaker 1: of everyone wanting to come to you for maybe signing
Speaker 1: an eight by ten, everybody's coming to you to try
Speaker 1: to sign an eight by eleven contract. That's the truth.
Speaker 1: I mean, you're different, right, I mean it's the same
Speaker 1: people are coming up to you, like you know, say
Speaker 1: we're at that table. People may come up and say, hey,
Speaker 1: I on my one ere autograph, you know, the green tree.
Speaker 1: But someone could easily come up to you, but iPad say, Ben,
Speaker 1: do you think you could check out this new pilot?
Speaker 1: We did. Yeah, it's just it's just different. It's just
Speaker 1: on a different level. But it's the same. Yeah, No, absolutely,
Speaker 1: Oh you're right. I never thought about that like that,
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean you get attention for different reasons,
Speaker 1: and really, what like, what is this conversation we're having
Speaker 1: about other than attention? You know, who who's earned it,
Speaker 1: who hasn't earned it? How do you gauge that? Is?
Speaker 1: Their rules? To, you know, to kind of make sure
Speaker 1: the folks that are getting the bulk of the attention
Speaker 1: are doing it for the right reasons. UM. And I
Speaker 1: struggle with that personally, Like, you know, sometimes I feel
Speaker 1: like if I if I shut off social media right now,
Speaker 1: would I get the same type of experience when I
Speaker 1: was hunting if I knew no one would see it
Speaker 1: unless I spoke to them personally, Like, I'm not sure
Speaker 1: the way my brain has been trained here recently, that
Speaker 1: I would get the same enjoyment out of it. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure if not being able to share that with
Speaker 1: a big, massive amount of people, UM would feel the
Speaker 1: same for me. And that's pretty scary, Like I think,
Speaker 1: how dare you? Yeah, I don't know. Maybe that's true.
Speaker 1: Maybe that the idea that if I shot this animal
Speaker 1: only what I've found is when I'm on, when I'm
Speaker 1: on experiences with true friends, which to me translate into
Speaker 1: hunts that were authentic to when I was hunting with
Speaker 1: family or friends. UM. Now, there's been times were for example,
Speaker 1: last year, when you and I were in Lena, I
Speaker 1: you a asked me to take over their Instagram, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I did. But there's been other opportunities. I mean,
Speaker 1: were you and I posting all the time when you
Speaker 1: and I were hunting it together here in Iowa. No,
Speaker 1: did we do what our job required of us. Later, Yes,
Speaker 1: when I was just in Oklahoma hunting with Andy and Torsten,
Speaker 1: I mean, dude, I was off the map to everyone else,
Speaker 1: and the reason was because I was truly enjoying hunting
Speaker 1: to the core of what hunting is to me. I
Speaker 1: can tell you that I do social media out of
Speaker 1: obligation to two people. One one person is my sponsors
Speaker 1: because I have to, and the second is to my
Speaker 1: followers because I appreciate them. If it came back to me, like,
Speaker 1: there's no way I would be on there, Like when
Speaker 1: when Joe and I hug hunted together a year ago
Speaker 1: in California. I mean, I have hundreds of pictures from
Speaker 1: our hunt that to me, those are things that I
Speaker 1: look at when I'm really wanting to enjoy a moment
Speaker 1: with a friend and I think, we gotta, man, we
Speaker 1: gotta freaking keep that alive, Like we have to keep
Speaker 1: these moments to where they're truly special, to the ones
Speaker 1: that we're closest to, because you know, when some of
Speaker 1: this stuff is when some of this stuff goes to everybody,
Speaker 1: it's hard to say that there's true importance to it.
Speaker 1: And that's how I am with you know, I've I've
Speaker 1: been there. It's it's hard for me when I'm on
Speaker 1: a hunt where I'm really loving it two and I'm
Speaker 1: with people that are really care about and I'm like
Speaker 1: enjoying conversation and really engulfed in a memory, It's hard
Speaker 1: for me to want to put that on pause to
Speaker 1: capture to someone that's not in the moment. I mean,
Speaker 1: that gets hard for me. Maybe that's weird. Maybe it
Speaker 1: may me. Maybe I'm the weird guy. No, we're both weird.
Speaker 1: But I think probably most people listening would say, a
Speaker 1: couple of guys that get to huntle over and oh,
Speaker 1: you've heartbroken about whether you should post or not? Screw you.
Speaker 1: Like I could see that being a thought, But I
Speaker 1: think what you're saying is relevant to anyone that wants
Speaker 1: to share their story and whatever venue they want to
Speaker 1: share it, Like, how much of it is, how much
Speaker 1: of what you're doing is about the end result and
Speaker 1: and what it looks like to everyone else, and how
Speaker 1: much of it is about how it feels to you?
Speaker 1: And how much personal rewards you get from it. I mean,
Speaker 1: I talked in the last to our boy, Aubrey Marcus
Speaker 1: last podcast, and you made a short guest appearance which
Speaker 1: I appreciate, and we talked about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation
Speaker 1: from a guy named Johan Harry that I heard on
Speaker 1: Rogan's podcast, and that was the same exact conversation we
Speaker 1: were having right now. Like intrinsic being you know, you're
Speaker 1: you're personally rewarded by an activity, and you kind of
Speaker 1: lose time in doing it and you're not worried about
Speaker 1: anyone else or what they might think or how how
Speaker 1: you might be rewarded. And then that extrinsic piece is
Speaker 1: you're doing something and you're always worrying about the reward
Speaker 1: at the end of the time, at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, you're always worried about what everybody might think
Speaker 1: or how you can tell everyone about what you're doing,
Speaker 1: and you lose some part of the intrinsic value and
Speaker 1: and going and doing the thing, whatever the thing might be.
Speaker 1: So it seems like that's a common thread and everybody
Speaker 1: I'm talking to, maybe because I always bring it up,
Speaker 1: but uh, it's interesting to me. That's an interesting subject
Speaker 1: of the motivations. And then I mean, do you remember
Speaker 1: a time before you were a professional UM in the
Speaker 1: hunting space where you like the last you know, maybe
Speaker 1: the last vestiges of of prior to social media, prior
Speaker 1: to your TV show, and you were just hunting for yourself,
Speaker 1: and you know, I know you also were competing in
Speaker 1: archery tournaments and you were driven to just go hunt
Speaker 1: more than you were to be a professional UM target archer.
Speaker 1: I mean that I think that that story in and
Speaker 1: of itself could probably inform this Oh yeah, well I'd
Speaker 1: like to compete. I mean, at first I wanted to
Speaker 1: compete because I was competitive, But the reality is it
Speaker 1: didn't take very long for me to realize that. I
Speaker 1: kind of realized that after I won. When I won
Speaker 1: my first national championship, I was so excited about it.
Speaker 1: I got this trophy and brought it home and then,
Speaker 1: you know, nine months later, I could barely read the
Speaker 1: name on the on this big freaking mug because it
Speaker 1: was just black with tarnish. So I had to clean
Speaker 1: it up and you know, polish it all that stuff.
Speaker 1: And then I remember the next year, someone was said
Speaker 1: something like, hey, who won this last year? You know,
Speaker 1: we're in a tournament and someone else want it. And
Speaker 1: I was sitting there. But meanwhile, while I was watching
Speaker 1: someone else win it, someone said, well who won this
Speaker 1: last year? And I had to have the conversation, Oh,
Speaker 1: I want it last year, and they're like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: oh cool and uh And then I realized, wait a minute.
Speaker 1: The reason people are walking on walking around with like
Speaker 1: their shirt that says Billy Bob National Champion, it's not
Speaker 1: like it's it's not because they earned the title. It's
Speaker 1: because no one remembers that. The next year they're trying
Speaker 1: to like remind everybody. So I just got to the
Speaker 1: point where I'm like, you know, this stuff, unless it
Speaker 1: mean something to you, it doesn't mean anything anyone else.
Speaker 1: That's a great point. So what means something to me
Speaker 1: is going on the hunt. That's what means something to me,
Speaker 1: not going to a tournament. I went to a tournament
Speaker 1: so that when I went to a hunt, I was
Speaker 1: going to get something. Yeah, that's truth. So you know,
Speaker 1: when for the longest time, I never posted I've never
Speaker 1: posted posted my accomplishments on like my website or anything,
Speaker 1: and people got to the point where they're like, hey,
Speaker 1: do you have a bio or something to me. We're
Speaker 1: trying to write about this and we kind of know
Speaker 1: you've done some stuff, but none of that's out there,
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, I guess I need to put
Speaker 1: it out there. But in the same sense I competed
Speaker 1: to be a better bow hunter, I didn't because I
Speaker 1: realized pretty quick that when you compete, you know, well,
Speaker 1: tell me this, do you know the rain? The olmer is,
Speaker 1: of course, what is it? What title does he want
Speaker 1: as an archer? They'll know bad ass. That's the only
Speaker 1: one I know. See, that's my point. So it's, uh,
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's a That's another tough thing, you
Speaker 1: know nowadays imagine social media and competition. You can instantly
Speaker 1: be a world champion and you can run, you can
Speaker 1: freaking run the whole finish line. But that but your
Speaker 1: reality is what does it really mean? It's tough now,
Speaker 1: You're right, I mean that's it's always trying to figure out.
Speaker 1: I like what you said, thinking like that's like Nolan
Speaker 1: Ryan saying, yeah, man, only I was only a baseball
Speaker 1: player so I could throw rocks at deer. I wanted
Speaker 1: to get better throw those rocks, saying I wanted to
Speaker 1: see him throw a rock and a deer. That kind
Speaker 1: of I kind of do too. I think you'd probably
Speaker 1: have a good effect. Would never do that. Hey, I
Speaker 1: told you I have two questions for you to my
Speaker 1: second one for it. So my second one is you
Speaker 1: made a post one time, which is still and I
Speaker 1: haven't even talked to you about this, which I think
Speaker 1: is what's cool about the podcast is it's authentic. She
Speaker 1: made a podcast specifically about trophy photos. Remember it? I
Speaker 1: do remember it. Yeah, there's no way I can forget
Speaker 1: it now that I did it. Okay, So do you
Speaker 1: want to talk about it? Sure? For those that don't know,
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a Gritty Bowman podcast that we did
Speaker 1: talking about it. But I basically, um, I just watched
Speaker 1: the film Trophy. They just came out the scene in documentary,
Speaker 1: and I just talked a bunch of people and and
Speaker 1: I just started thinking about the history of hunting and
Speaker 1: kind of my own history in it, and where the
Speaker 1: trophy thing came from. And I was started thinking about
Speaker 1: the history of trophy photos or gripping grins or whatever.
Speaker 1: And then I started thinking, like why I do it,
Speaker 1: and um, how weird. It probably looks to other people
Speaker 1: that we like dump water to get the blood off
Speaker 1: and stick their tongues back in their mouths and drag
Speaker 1: them off to a nice vista and take a photo.
Speaker 1: And I said, just for myself, I think that this
Speaker 1: trophy photo is wrapped up in a lot of negativity
Speaker 1: for a lot of people for whatever reason. Um likely
Speaker 1: because when we flipped the switch to social media, people
Speaker 1: started to see these little trading cards almost that that
Speaker 1: people used to just hand each other. You know you were,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you were many many years at trade shows
Speaker 1: with your with like a binder full of photos, right,
Speaker 1: like trophy photos that used to that used to be
Speaker 1: the thing, and show people this is what I did
Speaker 1: last year. Yeah, that was that was the thing, right.
Speaker 1: So we took those binders of photos and we started
Speaker 1: uploading them to the damn Internet, and people started to
Speaker 1: see him and no one understood what that was. That
Speaker 1: was like like a special little language we had with
Speaker 1: each other that had become important over the years, and
Speaker 1: then it started getting uploaded. I think regular folks looked
Speaker 1: at that and saw the message a negative message like
Speaker 1: this person is happy too, and celebrating to have taken
Speaker 1: this life and look how they're demonstrating it. So it's
Speaker 1: nice to say I can talk forever, but it's ufice
Speaker 1: to say I just posted that. Look. I think for
Speaker 1: my own mind, I'm going to take that image that
Speaker 1: has been a little bit negative for a lot of
Speaker 1: people and and change that in my own activities and
Speaker 1: and try to put out an image that respects the
Speaker 1: animal totally, however that might look. And it's you know,
Speaker 1: certain instance, I'm not gonna completely stage every photo I
Speaker 1: take when I kill an animal, but I am going
Speaker 1: to make sure whenever we do that that I feel
Speaker 1: like it's shows respect and I feel like everybody should
Speaker 1: do that too. And I think that's or something like that,
Speaker 1: something to that effect. That's probably where I was wrong.
Speaker 1: Everybody can can do what they want to do. What
Speaker 1: the hell do I know? But I put a pull
Speaker 1: up and I lost. I lost like eighty award as
Speaker 1: with should hunters not not do gripping runs anymore? But
Speaker 1: I was still happy to have started the conversation. And
Speaker 1: I've gotten a lot of people just you know, wagging
Speaker 1: their finger at me and saying, you know, how dare you?
Speaker 1: And maybe maybe I should have worded it differently, but
Speaker 1: I just at the moment, in that moment, thinking the
Speaker 1: way I was, I thought, I really want to just
Speaker 1: say this outright and not hedge on it and not
Speaker 1: um not hedge with my ideas are and it's quite
Speaker 1: garnered a quite a lot of commentary. Cool, it means
Speaker 1: it's an opportunity. I mean, obviously now someone that's I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm authentic and asking the question. Because for me, I
Speaker 1: took pictures. When I started taking pictures of my animals,
Speaker 1: I took pictures with thirty five million meters. There was
Speaker 1: no iPhones. You didn't see what the picture was, you
Speaker 1: didn't know if the exposure was right. There was no
Speaker 1: photo shop. I mean, I took pictures, and I took
Speaker 1: rolls of photos for one animal, took him to Walmart,
Speaker 1: paid for the one hour photo just to hope that
Speaker 1: one photo was good, and like, you know, something that
Speaker 1: I would have with me for all the time. So
Speaker 1: from that aspect, I can I disagreed with you. But
Speaker 1: on the other hand, there's a lot of photos that
Speaker 1: go out on social media that people are ignorant and
Speaker 1: not expecting people to disagree with. So I just said,
Speaker 1: I actually voted that I mean, and I don't think
Speaker 1: I mean told you this, but I I voted against
Speaker 1: the non group and print because for me, my pictures
Speaker 1: and rolls and rolls and roll of the film that
Speaker 1: I took to try to get one photo which I
Speaker 1: saved and I have downstairs, you know, and kind of
Speaker 1: been my safe of oh yeah, here's a photo I
Speaker 1: showed shot back in the nineties. Um, I'm proud of that.
Speaker 1: Like in at that time, I couldn't even afford I
Speaker 1: couldn't afford to mount things. So my photo literally that
Speaker 1: was my mount, like that was that was my trophy.
Speaker 1: I couldn't, you know. And and truthfully, a lot of
Speaker 1: the stuff that I shot years ago, I don't even know,
Speaker 1: you know, they've just been lost and moving ng or
Speaker 1: broken or whatever. But I still have photos. So I
Speaker 1: was passionate about I don't agree with not having the
Speaker 1: grip and grand but I also know that when I
Speaker 1: was sitting there selecting photos for a catalog back again,
Speaker 1: when you open up an envelope and you look at
Speaker 1: photos and you're like, oh, what'sh what photos should we
Speaker 1: put in the catalog? You weren't like looking at someone
Speaker 1: social media saying, oh, these guys have two hundred fifty followers,
Speaker 1: they need to be in our catalog. You were just saying,
Speaker 1: who's got a good photo, and you would look and
Speaker 1: be like, holy crap, this guy. Um do you remember
Speaker 1: Lane last? Damn it. Don't do this too, man. This
Speaker 1: is gonna be like that time you and Rogue and
Speaker 1: argued about you're going to get hung for not no
Speaker 1: in his name? You know what I'm talking about. This
Speaker 1: would be about the time we were in the nine
Speaker 1: recorded a Rogan podcast and you guys are arguing about
Speaker 1: the name of a fighter for like three I know,
Speaker 1: and I actually had to track him down and be
Speaker 1: like did I want to fight? And he's like, no,
Speaker 1: you didn't. Not there, you didn't. I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: thinks well yeah. So there were people that were that
Speaker 1: we're like really good photographers, So you were you were like,
Speaker 1: or at least me, I was. I was trying to
Speaker 1: make a photo to where if that person looked at it,
Speaker 1: they'd be like, Wow, that's a very respectful, nice photo
Speaker 1: of their deer. But then all of a sudden you'd
Speaker 1: get someone that shot a buck in Iowa and it
Speaker 1: would be you know, tongue hanging out, blood drew out
Speaker 1: of its nostril. And when he's back in, you know,
Speaker 1: in the back of a Ford pickup truck, is you know,
Speaker 1: a bunch of like moldy bud light uh boxes in
Speaker 1: the background, and they're like, Okay, this is a ridiculously
Speaker 1: cool buck. But obviously it's tongue hanging out and there's
Speaker 1: blood hanging out, and there's like a bunch of beer
Speaker 1: cans in the back of this guy's car. He shouldn't
Speaker 1: be drinking and driving. And you know, yeah, thanks for
Speaker 1: the photo, but no, we can't put it in our
Speaker 1: catalogs um um that aspect. You're right, you know, if
Speaker 1: if that is some people's grip and grin, it's it
Speaker 1: doesn't represent as well. Yeah, well I would. Just the
Speaker 1: other thing I was coming to is that, and talked
Speaker 1: about it on the Gritty Bone podcast is like, I,
Speaker 1: you know, I work at Yeddie and I live in
Speaker 1: a town that's, you know, decidedly even though it's in Texas,
Speaker 1: it's decidedly urban, and there's a lot of folks that
Speaker 1: don't go outside um too much and do what we do.
Speaker 1: And so I live in a in a space where. Um.
Speaker 1: I've had the conversation all week this week at work.
Speaker 1: But you know, it's just trying to introduce people to
Speaker 1: the idea of hunting, not not the particular points in
Speaker 1: a little um micro arguments we have inside of hunting.
Speaker 1: I'm talking just the general idea of what the hell
Speaker 1: we're out there doing. Um. And so I always link
Speaker 1: that idea back to in journalism school when I went
Speaker 1: from what I remember between trips to the barn and
Speaker 1: such it was, it was always it was always like, hey,
Speaker 1: know your audience. That's the first rule of journalism. Know
Speaker 1: your audience. Know who you're speaking to, um, know who
Speaker 1: might see the thing you're doing. So in the case
Speaker 1: that that you bring up of like a Matthew's catalog,
Speaker 1: you know who your audience is. You know where that
Speaker 1: thing is gonna end up, um, And so you can
Speaker 1: and you can postcript and grins and something like that.
Speaker 1: I would say, like, I'm okay and venue. When everybody
Speaker 1: understands what a group and grin is, every hunter understands
Speaker 1: it's not disrespect, it's respect. Um, I'm okay with a
Speaker 1: group and grin if you were just showing it to
Speaker 1: me or me showing to you. The issue I have
Speaker 1: when when you put it online is that it then
Speaker 1: you're maybe not clear of who your audience really is. Um,
Speaker 1: even though you have a certain set of followers, it's
Speaker 1: pretty much open. I think it's fair you don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. I mean, you don't fair to
Speaker 1: say you freaking have no clue. I mean, look look
Speaker 1: at the people we've met through social media. Absolutely we
Speaker 1: don't have any freak So okay, let's just stop there.
Speaker 1: We have no idea. Who's right, we have no idea? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean there's ways you can mitigate it, and like,
Speaker 1: I have a private thing and a private profile, and
Speaker 1: but you don't have no idea? Yeah, so in Mike,
Speaker 1: most people don't. I would say from you, how about Torson? Yeah,
Speaker 1: we have no idea, no idea, And so would I ever?
Speaker 1: Would I ever imagine that I make a post about
Speaker 1: buying my kid a freaking ninety dollar vinyl record player
Speaker 1: at a guitar center for his birthday and buying a
Speaker 1: one Led Zeppelin record man posting about it, and then
Speaker 1: next thing I know, the freaking one of the head
Speaker 1: honchos that Atlantic Records is freaking sent me the package
Speaker 1: in the mail because he because he sees them passionate
Speaker 1: about vinyl. Yeah, yeah, we really have no idea. And
Speaker 1: so that's my general if journalism in the decorum works here,
Speaker 1: if you say, like, hey, look, you don't know on
Speaker 1: social media, you don't know who your audience really is.
Speaker 1: Suffice to say, you can't control it. If you think
Speaker 1: if you think that's wrong, then in that environment it
Speaker 1: makes sense to kind of not completely sense yourself and
Speaker 1: and somebody to take a hard left turn. At this conversation,
Speaker 1: somebody commented to me like, well, we live in this
Speaker 1: snowflake society where the meat too movement tells us what
Speaker 1: we have to do. And I'm not going to bend
Speaker 1: to anybody, Like yeah, I get you, but like, let's
Speaker 1: meet some Let's meet somewhere in the middle. Let's not
Speaker 1: change everything we do for everyone or nothing we do
Speaker 1: for no one. Let's in the middle somewhere say like,
Speaker 1: because we don't know who's looking at this, let's change
Speaker 1: it up a little bit to take away the things
Speaker 1: that someone might view as negative. Because the grip and
Speaker 1: your in things not so important to me that I
Speaker 1: have to have it, you know, I could give up
Speaker 1: parts of that and still get the same experience of
Speaker 1: hunting as I as I would otherwise, I don't losing anything.
Speaker 1: And so I don't know. Maybe I'm convincing. You may
Speaker 1: be not, But I think that's just been my own
Speaker 1: personal slant on it. And I think we're pretty quick,
Speaker 1: we're pretty slow to change, pretty pretty quick in the
Speaker 1: hunting industry, in the hunting world. To kind of deny changes,
Speaker 1: it's staring us in the face. I think in this case,
Speaker 1: it's it's nice to have the conversation whether it's the
Speaker 1: right or wrong thing to do. And like I don't
Speaker 1: even know it was. It was the late nineties. I
Speaker 1: was in the softball tournament Sparta, Wisconsin, small community. We're
Speaker 1: sitting there, we're in the We're in the championship of
Speaker 1: this baseball tournament, and I'm playing baseball for Matthews, who
Speaker 1: was a business in our community. And we're playing against
Speaker 1: this other team and it's for all the marbles. It's
Speaker 1: you know, we're in this championship deal, So I freaking
Speaker 1: us crush this softball into like left field, the left
Speaker 1: center outfielder in the left fielder. They're both running for
Speaker 1: this ball and they're boats just like so focused on
Speaker 1: me catching these balls, but I could be out. They
Speaker 1: just freaking I'm talking cranium to cranium. Just boom. They
Speaker 1: freaking run into one another and they're both laying out
Speaker 1: on the sidelines. Well, here's the owner of our company,
Speaker 1: Matt Mkerson. He had never he had never went to
Speaker 1: another softball game ever, but he knew Matthews was in
Speaker 1: the finals. We're in the championship. So Matt came. He's in,
Speaker 1: He's in the stands and here's Matt, you know, devout Christian,
Speaker 1: loves people, all about the community. And here's two guys
Speaker 1: that run for a ball that was hit by a
Speaker 1: Matthews employee. And these guys freaking her post told talk
Speaker 1: laying on the side of the freaking side by side.
Speaker 1: They're literally laying side by side the balls. They're like,
Speaker 1: I could have ran for a home run, but everybody
Speaker 1: just stopped, like, oh my god, and these guys are dead.
Speaker 1: So Matt runs out to outfield from the stands and
Speaker 1: he's sitting there and knowing Matt, he's like willing to
Speaker 1: can I pay for your freaking hospital bills? Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, this never would happen if Matthews would have
Speaker 1: been playing you guys in the finals, right, Like, this
Speaker 1: is I know Matt well enough to know this is
Speaker 1: his mentality. So the guy comes to and Matt's like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, are you okay? He's like, hey, buddy,
Speaker 1: are you all right? Are you right? And the guys
Speaker 1: just like, oh, it's just dropped the biggest F bomb ever.
Speaker 1: And you can just tell Matt being who he is,
Speaker 1: he just instantly switched off. And he went from being
Speaker 1: someone that was whether can help you or your family
Speaker 1: or anything because of this catastrophe to like, okay, he's
Speaker 1: turned off. And the same is true. You know, if
Speaker 1: we go into a meeting with their bosses and we
Speaker 1: talk like we're at a frat party, or if we
Speaker 1: talk like we're at a night out with a bunch
Speaker 1: of pirates, you you just your voice does not get hurt.
Speaker 1: It's looked at from a completely different point of view.
Speaker 1: So why do people feel like it's not the same
Speaker 1: for hunting? Yeah, I don't know. Don't attack something from
Speaker 1: a professional point of view. You're not ever going to
Speaker 1: get your opinion heard. I mean, you can you can
Speaker 1: be someone that is at the top of your food chain.
Speaker 1: But as soon as you start speaking at a very
Speaker 1: very unprofessional level, no matter what your credibility is, it's degraded.
Speaker 1: That's reality, our opinions and our stance as hunters and
Speaker 1: what you know. I saw a picture from the hunting community.
Speaker 1: I saw this on Facebook. Actually screenshot at it because
Speaker 1: I couldn't even believe it. But someone took a picture
Speaker 1: of their car with like a bunch of dead deer
Speaker 1: that were frozen in a position that and they like
Speaker 1: staged them all to look like Santa Slagh. It's like,
Speaker 1: how can you? I mean, I understand the fact you're like,
Speaker 1: it's a free world, I can do what I want,
Speaker 1: But how do you think that anything you fight for
Speaker 1: is ever going to be accepted if that's the way
Speaker 1: that you attack it. Yeah, I mean, that's that's the reality,
Speaker 1: and that's it just boils down the tack attacked one
Speaker 1: oh one, Yeah, right for sure, And then you you
Speaker 1: can kind of hit the nail on the head there
Speaker 1: at some level when it's it's you see what happened
Speaker 1: in British Columbia with the ban on grizzly bear hunting.
Speaker 1: I mean it that was based on popular opinions. So
Speaker 1: you're we all love something that is not given wasn't
Speaker 1: given us to us by right? I mean it is
Speaker 1: in the modern sense of privilege, you know it. Sure
Speaker 1: we have this heritage with it going back millions of years,
Speaker 1: and it's connected to our humanity. But in the modern sense,
Speaker 1: it's really a different it's a different ball game, and
Speaker 1: we could lose whatever whatever we think hunting is if
Speaker 1: we don't um presented in the right way to the
Speaker 1: rest of the world, and the rest of the world
Speaker 1: was looking at us saying basically asking the single question,
Speaker 1: is this thing good for us and for animals? Is
Speaker 1: it good? Continue to convince me. As society changes and
Speaker 1: as we change as humans, they're they're gonna keep asking
Speaker 1: that question. We gotta keep answering it. Um as technology changes,
Speaker 1: as we change, is you know they can carrying capacity
Speaker 1: of lands change and conservation principles change, Like, we have
Speaker 1: to continue to answer that question, and if we if
Speaker 1: we answer it wrong enough times, they're just going to
Speaker 1: take it away. And and as evidence in in British Columbia,
Speaker 1: So yeah, you were right. I legitimately think it's a
Speaker 1: matter of when someone moves into a position that gets
Speaker 1: enough I guess, gets enough pressure from one side to
Speaker 1: change something, it will change. It doesn't even matter if
Speaker 1: we do it wrong. That's the reality. So as hunters,
Speaker 1: I can tell you that. Well, I can tell you
Speaker 1: this from from my point of view. When people make posts,
Speaker 1: When people make a post on things that I have,
Speaker 1: I actually make a decision on is this a person
Speaker 1: to where I can oppose their opinion and they're going
Speaker 1: to look at it objectively or is this a person
Speaker 1: to where no matter what I say, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: So a lot of times, and I'm sure this is
Speaker 1: the case. And Ape you have the ability now to
Speaker 1: research someone before you reply to them. And if every
Speaker 1: single thing you ever do is just stick it to
Speaker 1: the man, then most likely your ability to have a
Speaker 1: voice has gone away. Your ability to oppose is meaningless.
Speaker 1: You know, if if everything you've done is just you know, trolling, trolling, trolling, negative,
Speaker 1: being a dick, always voice in that, then what happens
Speaker 1: is when it really matters. It's like crying wolf. What
Speaker 1: happens is when it really matters and you say, you know,
Speaker 1: this is what I want to do, They're like, whoa,
Speaker 1: this is what you've always done. We don't like that. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's tricky because as hunters and outdoorsman
Speaker 1: and passionate passionate conservationists, if we take the high road,
Speaker 1: then what will happen is when we truly have to
Speaker 1: fight for something that matters, we'll have a voice. But
Speaker 1: if you burn that, man, we're not gonna have it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think that this conversation is like it's never
Speaker 1: ending because all the things and that you do when
Speaker 1: you're hunting, all the little rituals we have and traditions
Speaker 1: we have, and things we think are normal that maybe
Speaker 1: um to the rest of the world might not be.
Speaker 1: I mean, those are all important, Like all the complexities
Speaker 1: of hunting are important to the grander scheme of it.
Speaker 1: So it's not like you can you can change the
Speaker 1: way you take grip and grand photos, but then at
Speaker 1: the same time, you know, also shoot off the hood
Speaker 1: of your truck or at this like at the same
Speaker 1: time also just for it about conservation its principles and
Speaker 1: not learn anything about our system of of um or
Speaker 1: our model of wildlife in this country. So it's like
Speaker 1: you hunting kind of asked a lot of you, you know,
Speaker 1: it asked a ton of you, both in knowledge and skill,
Speaker 1: but also and just to be able to deduce what's
Speaker 1: good for the grander um platform, which that's freaking hard, man, Like,
Speaker 1: there's no way. A lot of people just want to
Speaker 1: go out and get some meat or go out and
Speaker 1: have a good time, and and um, asking them all
Speaker 1: to take part in that to that extent can be tough.
Speaker 1: But I think just having the conversation and you being
Speaker 1: willing to talk about it in this way rather than
Speaker 1: just being you bullshit and drinking beers talking about whatever
Speaker 1: I appreciate because it's I mean, somebody might listen to
Speaker 1: this and come out with just a slightly different perspective
Speaker 1: or or just one of the things we've said is
Speaker 1: helpful to them, then great, man, Hell yeah, because that's
Speaker 1: what That's what helped me become a better hunter. Listening
Speaker 1: to guys like you and listening to guys like Ronnella
Speaker 1: Remy Warren talked about their experiences and that ship that
Speaker 1: made me better, maybe way way better. Well, I couldn't
Speaker 1: agree with you more, dude, I couldn't agree with you more. Um,
Speaker 1: that's a good place to end it. I think, Uh,
Speaker 1: we're done. Now until what did you say, the end
Speaker 1: of April, when we're going somewhere real special, you want
Speaker 1: to break the news to everybody where we're going and
Speaker 1: who's coming with yep, just so everyone out there knows
Speaker 1: come April. The end of April, um, I would say
Speaker 1: the most I don't know, I don't even know how
Speaker 1: to say it. It's the most ununbelievable band of brotherhood
Speaker 1: and I don't even know, don't we don't even have
Speaker 1: a name for ourselves. But let's not name ourselves because
Speaker 1: then it starts to get a negative vibe on it.
Speaker 1: But literally, Lenai is gonna be taken over by me,
Speaker 1: Ben sam sohol Shane Dorian, Remy Warren, Adam Green Tree,
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan, cam Haignes. I think that's it. I feel
Speaker 1: like you had a lot of momentum to keep going
Speaker 1: appearances by Kimmy, Green Tree and Fresh. That's a large,
Speaker 1: large crew. I mean, there's a there's a lot going
Speaker 1: on there. But I will say that what's cool about
Speaker 1: that and where we're going at the end of April
Speaker 1: is that you know, we start playing these trips and
Speaker 1: you're like, may we we can't go without Green Tree
Speaker 1: Ship we can't go without Remy Man. We can't go
Speaker 1: without cam. Now, we can't go without Rogan, we can't
Speaker 1: go without Dudley. And it just becomes this awesome group
Speaker 1: of people that are all passionate about the same thing
Speaker 1: and all just want to hang man, like you gotta
Speaker 1: have you gotta have everybody. So this is the first
Speaker 1: time we've been able to like assemble the entire dream
Speaker 1: team of of people that like to go hunting. I'm
Speaker 1: looking forward to it. Dynamite. Oh well, we'll we'll certainly
Speaker 1: talk more about that in the days to come. But
Speaker 1: thanks for talking to me, John Dudley. Oh yeah, brother,
Speaker 1: appreciate it. Until next time. Bye bye. All right, Oh
Speaker 1: that's the end. That's the end of episode number four.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much to John Dudley man from knock On,
Speaker 1: one of my favorite people in the industry. Appreciate him
Speaker 1: having that conversation with me. And really took a lot
Speaker 1: away from it. I really took away an inside take
Speaker 1: from the mind of somebody that's influential and our circles
Speaker 1: and cares about that influence and it really wants it
Speaker 1: to be authentic and wants to drive it in the
Speaker 1: right way. I appreciate John for that. He's a great dude.
Speaker 1: If you want to hear any of the other podcasts
Speaker 1: we put out thus far, go to iTunes or Stitcher
Speaker 1: or the Hunting Collective dot com, where you can hear
Speaker 1: from Steve Ranella, a meat eater. You can hear from
Speaker 1: Brian Callahan of First Light, you can hear from Aubrey
Speaker 1: Marcus CEO of on It, and this continued conversation that
Speaker 1: we call the Hunting Collective very much. Appreciate it as always.
Speaker 1: You can follow me at Benny O B three oh one,
Speaker 1: Come check us out on Instagram. That's really where all
Speaker 1: the conversations happening. I just want to say I appreciate
Speaker 1: everybody who writes in, who's commented, emailed. We're gonna do
Speaker 1: a whole show here coming soon, just with the email
Speaker 1: thoughts and commentary, because you guys are all part of
Speaker 1: this conversation that we're having, and I appreciate every comment,
Speaker 1: good and bad. Please keep him coming. I'd like to
Speaker 1: also thank our sponsors. There aren't any, but if you're
Speaker 1: listening and you want to sponsor, let me know, because
Speaker 1: we're poor. Come on anyway, that's it for today. Much
Speaker 1: appreciate all of you. I love you. Hi.