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Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, this is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.

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Speaker 2: Today's episode is going to be a longer one part

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Speaker 2: of the series where I interview fascinating people about how

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Speaker 2: they take their days from great to awesome, advice they

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Speaker 2: have for the rest of us, and all sorts of things.

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Speaker 2: And today we are talking with Sabina Nawaz. She is

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Speaker 2: an executive coach and the author of the brand new

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Speaker 2: book You're the Boss, which is all about how to

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Speaker 2: take your management skills to the next level. So, Sabina,

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Speaker 2: welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Laura, it's great to be here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so why don't you tell my listeners a little

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Speaker 2: bit about yourself.

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Speaker 3: I am someone who coaches executives one on one and

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Speaker 3: then I do leadership workshops and talks. But at the

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Speaker 3: heart of it, if you ask me what am I

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Speaker 3: paid to do, I'm paid to raise people's heart rates.

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Speaker 2: Because yes, okay, we're going to get our heart rate

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Speaker 2: up in the course of this episode.

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Speaker 1: How do you do that well?

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Speaker 3: Because I think that leadership. Acts of leadership require courage,

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Speaker 3: and courage is when your heart is pounding and you

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Speaker 3: still take action. So it's about really raising people's heart rates,

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Speaker 3: as in pointing them towards the courageous actions they need

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Speaker 3: to take, and then helping them with practical, pragmatic tools

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Speaker 3: to be able to take those actions.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: And you know a lot of people at some point

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Speaker 2: in their life will have this transition into management. I

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Speaker 2: mean they've been working as an individual contributor for years

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Speaker 2: and they get promoted to the next level and all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden they are responsible for other people. What

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Speaker 2: are some of the biggest misconceptions people come into that

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Speaker 2: stage with.

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Speaker 3: I think there are a few, and I'll stick to

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Speaker 3: three and can dig into the details if you want.

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Speaker 3: But first is that when you're promoted, it is actually

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Speaker 3: the most risky time of your career because the strengths

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Speaker 3: that got you here are going to be viewed very

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Speaker 3: differently from the people who's nexicraining up looking at you.

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Speaker 3: View may not be as charitable. For example, if you're

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Speaker 3: very detail oriented, now you're going to look like you're

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Speaker 3: a micromanager. So that point of promotion is the riskiest

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Speaker 3: time in your career. The second misconception is that it's

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Speaker 3: not power that corrupts but pressure. We are all facing pressure,

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Speaker 3: especially right now, from all directions, and that corrupts our

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Speaker 3: actions in a way that demoralizes the people who follow us,

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Speaker 3: and then it tanks business results. And the third one

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Speaker 3: is that the more you know, and you didn't get

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Speaker 3: to be a manager by not knowing a lot. The

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Speaker 3: more you know, the more successful you are, the more

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Speaker 3: senior you get, the less you know about how people

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Speaker 3: view you, because power tends to obscure the truth, the

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Speaker 3: real feedback from you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because people will not tell their bosses straightforwardly what

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Speaker 2: they think of them.

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Speaker 3: Correct. No, who's going to say, hey, keeper of my paycheck,

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Speaker 3: let me tell you something you did that wasn't quite

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Speaker 3: that great.

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that would take a lot of courage and would

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Speaker 2: be very hard to do, and I can see how

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Speaker 2: that would make it difficult to understand what is really

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Speaker 2: going on. But you say in your book that there's

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Speaker 2: no such thing as a good boss or a bad boss.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure we have some people listening to this who

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Speaker 2: would disagree on the bad boss part.

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Speaker 1: But what do you mean by that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I think because pressure corrupts, it's not necessarily a

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Speaker 3: binary good and bad. It is that the pressure corrupts

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Speaker 3: us into bad boss behaviors. You can be a very

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Speaker 3: good person. Look, most bosses, even the ones we like

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Speaker 3: to revile, don't wake up in the morning saying how

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Speaker 3: can I be a bad boss today? They're actually waking

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Speaker 3: up going I want to be a good boss. I

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Speaker 3: want to help motivate my people. I want to get

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Speaker 3: some results. I want to get some stuff done. And

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Speaker 3: then all that pressure meets us in the day and

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Speaker 3: we forget empathy, we forget driving for clarity, we might

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Speaker 3: forget to acknowledge somebody's good work because we're go, go, go, rush, rush, rush.

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Speaker 3: So it's not that you're a bad boss, it's that

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Speaker 3: pressure transmutes your best intentions and sometimes your good behaviors

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Speaker 3: into bad boss behaviors.

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Speaker 1: Excellent, So what are then good boss be here?

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Speaker 2: So I mean, maybe we can talk about some regular

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Speaker 2: actions of effective managers.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, what a great question, because there are several that

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Speaker 3: they can take, and these actions are paired up with

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Speaker 3: concrete tools that can help keep you there in those actions.

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Speaker 3: One of the biggest ones, Laura, that I find over

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Speaker 3: and over again from the twelve thousand pages of data

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Speaker 3: that I collected on bosses is around communication. Now, communication

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Speaker 3: is a very very broad umbrella, and it is the

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Speaker 3: longest chapter in my book because it has seven different

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Speaker 3: sub pieces to it. One of them is, don't assume

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Speaker 3: that people who work for you are clueless. Ask them

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Speaker 3: first before telling, find out how they think they're doing.

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Speaker 3: Find out what they have tried before to address the

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Speaker 3: problem before saying have you tried this? Have you done this?

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Speaker 3: Because when you assume that they don't know and you

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Speaker 3: start to preach to them, it infantilizes them. They feel, wait,

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Speaker 3: why should I bother? They're going to give me all

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Speaker 3: this advice anyhow. So that's just one example around communication.

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Speaker 3: That's really a way to turn from a bad boss

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Speaker 3: to a good boss.

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Speaker 2: And one of the suggestions you gave in the book

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Speaker 2: is is actually working on your shut up and listen muscle.

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Speaker 2: I believe that was how you put it to like

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Speaker 2: just even setting a target for.

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Speaker 1: Yourself of not being the first person to talk.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, what if you set a target that you're the

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Speaker 3: third person to talk, third or later. It's that simple,

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Speaker 3: and of course that difficult to do when you're really

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Speaker 3: wanting to say something. So another way to exercise your

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Speaker 3: shut up muscle when you're on video calls, is to

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Speaker 3: put yourself on mute by default, because by the time

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Speaker 3: you go and unmute yourself, maybe you've gotten rid of

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Speaker 3: the urge to speak. If you're the first two people

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Speaker 3: to speak.

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Speaker 1: I love that.

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Speaker 2: I wonder if there's another example of an effective manager

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Speaker 2: habit you could share with us.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely. So another one, of course, is someone who delegates. Well, now, unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: most people make a horrible mistake when they delegate, and

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Speaker 3: the biggest mistake they make when delegating is treating it

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Speaker 3: as an on off switch. Here, Laura, go do this.

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Speaker 3: I'm delegating this to you. I'm empowering you. You go

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Speaker 3: off and do it. Now. Maybe Laura has never done

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Speaker 3: that task before, or she doesn't fully understand what it

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Speaker 3: is that I want her to do. But because of

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Speaker 3: my position of power, she's not gonna ask me. So

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Speaker 3: Laura goes and does the best she can. She gives

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Speaker 3: it to me the day before the deadline, and it's

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Speaker 3: not what I want. So now I'm swooping in. Forget that,

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Speaker 3: I forget that delegation, and forget my weekend because I'm

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Speaker 3: going to now jump in and have to do this work.

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Speaker 3: So Treating delegation as an on off switch is a

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Speaker 3: really big mistake. Successful bosses use what I've created called

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Speaker 3: a delegation dial instead of a switch. So look at

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Speaker 3: the person, find out what their level of experience, comfort,

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Speaker 3: familiarity is with the task, and if they're still learning.

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Speaker 3: There are five notches in this dial. First one is

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Speaker 3: you just do it. You have them watch you, shadow you,

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Speaker 3: but you're doing the work. Then you tell them, You

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Speaker 3: tell them step by step, here's what you're going to do. Next,

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Speaker 3: you teach them here's why we do it this way

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Speaker 3: versus that way. Next, you coach them what if you

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Speaker 3: thought about how else would you approach it? Where you stuck?

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Speaker 3: Ask them great questions and only then do you'd flip

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Speaker 3: the switch and be just a safety net for the person.

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Speaker 1: Got it all right?

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Speaker 2: Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and

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Speaker 2: we'll be back with more from Sabina on how to

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Speaker 2: be an excellent manager.

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Speaker 1: Well, I am back with Sabina Nouaz.

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Speaker 2: We are talking about how people can manage effectively what

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Speaker 2: she has learned from studying thousands and thousands of managers

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Speaker 2: and managerial situations. Sabina, I wonder if you could talk

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Speaker 2: a little bit about your career because you started off

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Speaker 2: or at one point in your life at least. We're

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Speaker 2: working at Microsoft, I believe, and we're promoted through various

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Speaker 2: ranks and had to learn a lot of this stuff,

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Speaker 2: perhaps the hard way on your own.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely. And so your question is what was my

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Speaker 3: career paths.

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Speaker 1: Or yeah, yeah, it was a career path to this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, to this current job. Oh my gosh. So I

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Speaker 3: started as an engineer, and I worked in various software

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Speaker 3: product developments Internet Explorer, Windows, MSN, and a number of

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Speaker 3: version zero products that went nowhere, kind of dead on arrival,

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Speaker 3: failed experiments. And as I worked on those and loved

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Speaker 3: the job, loved what I was doing. Microsoft gives you

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Speaker 3: an eight week sabbatical if certain conditions are met, and

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Speaker 3: for the first time in my life, a lot of

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Speaker 3: that eight weeks I was not doing anything. I wasn't

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Speaker 3: just go, go going, And as I'm sure you talk about, Laura,

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Speaker 3: when you have that kind of time, wonderful insights start

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Speaker 3: to come to you. One of my insights that landed

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Speaker 3: with crystal clarity one fine day was that it was

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Speaker 3: no longer a matter of if, but when I would

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Speaker 3: become a corporate vice president, and I, of course had ambitions.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to pursue that path, but once I realized

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Speaker 3: that I was going to get there, the strange thing

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Speaker 3: is I didn't want to spend the next five years

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Speaker 3: of my life trying to chase it, because I figured

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Speaker 3: I've cracked the code. It's going to be boring to

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Speaker 3: and chase something I already know how to get. Shoot,

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Speaker 3: what do I do with my life? I've thought of

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Speaker 3: my career as an engineer, and that made me reflect

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Speaker 3: on the feedback I've received from my team about being

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Speaker 3: a good manager. So I thought I should do some

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Speaker 3: of that people's stuff, not really knowing what that was

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Speaker 3: or what I was signing up for, but fortunate enough

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Speaker 3: to know the person who was in charge of hiring

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Speaker 3: for that department. She had seen me speak at a

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Speaker 3: conference and she said, yeah, absolutely, let's do this, and

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Speaker 3: I had it was a really no risk proposition because

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Speaker 3: she wanted me and my manager that I was leaving

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Speaker 3: said you have a blank check to come back. So

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Speaker 3: that's how I then, at Microsoft itself, spent almost six

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Speaker 3: years creating the company's management development, executive development programs, succession

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Speaker 3: planning processes, working with Bill Gates and Steve Bomber on

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Speaker 3: all of this. It was an amazing and exciting and

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Speaker 3: incredibly educational time. And that was twenty years ago when

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Speaker 3: I left, and now I work and coach CEOs.

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Speaker 1: Awesome.

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Speaker 2: So I have a question with this, like, when you

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Speaker 2: start coming in, you know, you've either been brought in

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Speaker 2: because somebody is having issues, or you know somebody brings

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Speaker 2: you in and you start by doing a three hundred

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Speaker 2: and sixty degree feedback assessment from what I understand, can

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Speaker 2: you talk a little bit about what that is and

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Speaker 2: what you are asking people and why they feel free

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Speaker 2: to talk in a situation like that when you know

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Speaker 2: they might not say things to their boss right.

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Speaker 3: Right, because power obscures they don't say those things to

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Speaker 3: their boss. And pretty much every single person I have

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Speaker 3: done this assessment for is shocked by the extent to

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Speaker 3: which their power is misinterpreted translated into fear some behaviors

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Speaker 3: on the part of the employees, how much of a gap,

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Speaker 3: how much of a power gap they create. So basically

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Speaker 3: thees I ask the person to identify about twelve of

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Speaker 3: their coworkers, people on their team, their peers, their manager,

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Speaker 3: sometimes even their partner at home, and we agree on

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Speaker 3: a set of questions that I'm going to ask these people.

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Speaker 3: These questions are derived from the things that this person

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Speaker 3: most wants to work on. Let's say they want to

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Speaker 3: work on decision making or some aspect of communication, or

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Speaker 3: some influence skills. So I ask those questions. I write

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Speaker 3: down everything people are saying verbatim, hence the twelve thousand

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Speaker 3: pages of data I've collected over twenty years, and I

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Speaker 3: create the themes where I can go back to the

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Speaker 3: person and say, hey, no matter who I talk to,

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Speaker 3: fan or critic, here are the five things people tend

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Speaker 3: to say about you. And then we set about working

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Speaker 3: on well, so what do you want to do about this?

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Speaker 2: And when people are surprised by it, what is the surprise?

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Speaker 2: I mean, is it just like, wow, everybody hates me?

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Speaker 2: Or is it something more nuanced than that.

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Speaker 3: It's much more nuanced than that, because I do the

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Speaker 3: feedback in two stages. Stage one, I just have a

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Speaker 3: conversation like I'm having with you, Laura, and I say, hey,

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Speaker 3: I talk to these people. I've got like fifty pages

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Speaker 3: of verbati and feedback. It's going to be hard for

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Speaker 3: you to hear they start to get scared. I say,

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Speaker 3: don't worry. I say this to everybody, and then I

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Speaker 3: give them the themes broadly speaking. Here, you know, people think

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Speaker 3: you're great, you're very smart, you've had a huge impact

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Speaker 3: on X, you're doing this well. And then these are

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Speaker 3: the three things that they're struggling with. And the person

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Speaker 3: invariably will say, oh, phew, you had scared Jesus out

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Speaker 3: of me. This is not that bad. That's not a surprise.

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Speaker 3: I can work on those things. And I say, wait

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Speaker 3: till you read the report. So the thing that really

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Speaker 3: hits them hard is the visceral experience of reading in

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Speaker 3: the words of their coworkers how they're viewed. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: How you are giving feedback to people, because of course

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Speaker 2: managers have to give.

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Speaker 1: A lot of feedback to people.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I wonder if if you could talk a little

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Speaker 2: bit about this, because you make a distinction between you know,

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Speaker 2: even if things are going well, there's a distinction between praise,

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Speaker 2: which might not be terribly useful, and positive feedback, yes,

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Speaker 2: which sounds like it's more actionable.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about that.

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Speaker 3: Yes, the distinction between praise and positive feedback, praise is

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Speaker 3: good job, thank you, And there's nothing wrong in saying

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Speaker 3: those things unless you're doing it too much, in which

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Speaker 3: case you're going to come across as patting someone on

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Speaker 3: the head all the time. I take that, I get

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Speaker 3: a temporary hit. Feels nice to be seen and appreciated.

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Speaker 3: Who doesn't like that? Great? Bring it on? But I

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Speaker 3: cannot replicate that. So, for example, somebody had told me

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Speaker 3: in a class that can I give you some feedback?

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Speaker 3: And I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, you know, what's the feedback?

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Speaker 3: And then they go, yeah, right, and I'm like sure,

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Speaker 3: and I put on my best facilitator face praising for

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Speaker 3: the feedback, and they say, you're very passionate. And I

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Speaker 3: went and I is that a good thing a bad thing?

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Speaker 3: What do you mean by passionate? So I ask a

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Speaker 3: few questions and he says, no, no, no, it's a really

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Speaker 3: good thing. And when you talk with your hands a

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Speaker 3: lot and have you vary your vocal tone a lot,

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Speaker 3: and when you do that, A it keeps me awake

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Speaker 3: in the classroom, but B it shows me you're really

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Speaker 3: connected to what you're speaking about. And then that makes

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Speaker 3: me pay attention and it lands the things that are

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Speaker 3: really important. So that passion that you express through your

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Speaker 3: voice in your hands is really helpful. Well that was

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Speaker 3: gold because that allowed me to actually then go get

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Speaker 3: more coaching, to study gestures, to understand more the nuances

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Speaker 3: of how I could convey more of that passion. So

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Speaker 3: that's the difference between praise and positive feedback.

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Speaker 2: And I suppose it's the same thing with negative feedback,

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Speaker 2: that the best negative feedback is what is going to

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Speaker 2: actually change the situation at.

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Speaker 3: Hand exactly again, it is what is it about it?

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Speaker 3: So often and that's why an interview based three sixty

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Speaker 3: is so helpful because of course most people will say, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: my boss is just being a bully. Okay, well could

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Speaker 3: you help me understand what is it that they're doing

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Speaker 3: or saying that makes you think they're a bully. And

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Speaker 3: that allows more people to give me a play by

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Speaker 3: play so we can say, ah, okay, when they interrupt you,

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Speaker 3: that's what you think of as a bully, because that

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Speaker 3: might not be what someone else thinks of as a bully.

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Speaker 3: So really getting specific and granular will allow me to

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Speaker 3: shift one way or the other.

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Speaker 2: Excellent, Well, we're going to take one more quick ad break,

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Speaker 2: and then we'll be back with more on being an

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Speaker 2: effective manager and a little bit about Sabina herself. Well,

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Speaker 2: I am back interviewing Sabina Nouas, who is the author

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Speaker 2: of the brand new book about Sorry Again.

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Speaker 1: They say you're the boss. That's the name.

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Speaker 2: I want to make sure I get it, get it right,

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Speaker 2: not becoming the boss. You're the boss, right, that's the name.

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Speaker 2: So I to ask a little bit about you and

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Speaker 2: your own sort of habits because we're always interested in

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Speaker 2: people's time management here on this show.

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Speaker 3: I'm wondering if you.

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Speaker 2: Have any rituals in your day that help you be

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Speaker 2: more effective.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, Laura, I have a dual ritual. It's called micro habits,

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Speaker 3: which I pair with something called a yes list. So

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Speaker 3: micro habits are tiny, tiny, ridiculously small steps towards building

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Speaker 3: a better habit, a big habit. One example for me

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Speaker 3: in my personal life in twenty twenty two, actually, for

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Speaker 3: about twenty years, I've fantasized about being a runner, but

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Speaker 3: never quite made it. Those New Year's resolutions remain stuck

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Speaker 3: until January fifth, and so in twenty twenty two, I

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Speaker 3: decided I was going to use micro habits to get

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Speaker 3: into a running habit, which meant first day I ran

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Speaker 3: one point one miles. Next day I ran one point

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Speaker 3: one miles. The day after that I ran one point

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Speaker 3: one miles. And I did not increase that because that

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Speaker 3: was something I could do and not with ease, but

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Speaker 3: I could do and so increasing it in very very

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Speaker 3: tiny increments. I think it was about a month when

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Speaker 3: I went from one point one to one point three miles.

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Speaker 3: That's more fast forward a couple of years and I

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Speaker 3: ran three half marathons and now I'm training for a

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Speaker 3: full marathon. So the only way to overachieve is to underachieve,

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Speaker 3: is to start by underachieving. So even today, I have

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Speaker 3: a set of micro habits and a spreadsheet called a

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Speaker 3: yes list. In that yes list, I list the micro

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Speaker 3: habits and then I have the dates, and at the

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Speaker 3: end of the day, yes, no, did I do that

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Speaker 3: or not? And it's really fun to see at the

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Speaker 3: end of a year or at the end of a

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Speaker 3: month how I'm tracking. It's also useful data to show, oh,

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Speaker 3: this is the one that doesn't get done at all.

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Speaker 3: Maybe I'm not interested in it, or maybe I need

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Speaker 3: to do something different. I need to shift my ritual

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Speaker 3: in order to make that happen.

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Speaker 2: And in your book you talk about how managers might

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Speaker 2: make a similar list of micro habits that they want

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Speaker 2: to try in the workplace. For instance, like you said,

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Speaker 2: being the third person to speak instead of the first

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Speaker 2: person to speak? Did I do that at least once today?

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Speaker 2: Do I get a yes in that column for this?

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Speaker 2: Is that how that would work?

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Speaker 3: Exactly? That's how exactly how it would work?

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Speaker 2: And so have you seen some transformations with this? I mean,

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Speaker 2: does this actually make a difference in people's performance over time?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely? Absolutely. There is one person who's written about who's

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Speaker 3: shared their own journey in the book as well, and

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Speaker 3: in their case, the manager had called them into the

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Speaker 3: office and said, there are three people threatening to leave

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Speaker 3: because of you, as the manager. You need to fix this.

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Speaker 3: And we did the three sixty. We got the feedback.

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Speaker 3: They developed these micro habits and this yes list and

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Speaker 3: followed it. This person followed it more religiously than most

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Speaker 3: people I coach, and it made a massive difference. People

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Speaker 3: started to praise this person instead of condone them, I mean,

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Speaker 3: instead of criticize them for the very things that were

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Speaker 3: tanking their performance as a manager. And these their employees

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Speaker 3: remained with them, did not leave, and when they left

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Speaker 3: it wasn't because of the poor manager.

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Speaker 1: Well that's that's great when that can happen. I love

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Speaker 1: things that actually work out.

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Speaker 2: It's always wonderful to hear when people can in fact change.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, right, self help. You never know if it's

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Speaker 1: actually going to happen exactly.

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Speaker 3: And also the other thing that's really interesting is that

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Speaker 3: it changes people's personal lives. It improves their relationships, it

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Speaker 3: makes them more healthy depending on what micro habits they adopt.

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Speaker 2: Awesome, Well, Sabina, I always ask people this question, what

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Speaker 2: is something you have done recently to take a day

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Speaker 2: from great to awesome?

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Speaker 3: Wow? What have I done recently to take a day

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Speaker 3: from great to awesome?

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Speaker 1: Make a day better? You know, something that's added a

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Speaker 1: lot good stuff to your life.

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Speaker 3: It's actually happened yesterday, Okay, And yesterday I was exhausted.

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Speaker 3: I am jet lagged because I've just come back from

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Speaker 3: London and so I've been breaking up at like two

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Speaker 3: and three in the morning. So I was exhausted, depleted.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't go running because I was too tired to run,

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Speaker 3: which then makes me more depleted, and I was slammed

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Speaker 3: by a number of things, like most of us are,

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Speaker 3: and suddenly I realized that just about everything in my

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Speaker 3: day was generated by me. It was my choice. I

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Speaker 3: chose to be on a certain podcast, I chose to

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Speaker 3: meet with a certain client, I chose to write an article,

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Speaker 3: and I just shifted. Thanks to a wise woman and

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Speaker 3: her wisdom, I shifted one word from I have to

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Speaker 3: do this to I get to do this. And the

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Speaker 3: minute I said I get to do this, I thought

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Speaker 3: about how privileged I am to be able to write

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Speaker 3: an article, how fortunate I am to be working with

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Speaker 3: one of my favorite clients today, how joyful it is

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Speaker 3: to get on a podcast and talk about my life's work.

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Speaker 3: So simply making that shift got me to this amazing,

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Speaker 3: amazing day, and I was able to sleep through the

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Speaker 3: night as well. I'm not I'm not sure everything had

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Speaker 3: to do with that word.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sleep always takes a day from great to awesome,

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Speaker 2: for sure.

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Speaker 1: Sure, Sibita, what are you looking forward to right now?

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Speaker 3: I am looking forward to the launch of this book,

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Speaker 3: and I can probably learn from all the books you

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Speaker 3: have written, Laura and your guidance, But my senses once

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Speaker 3: the book leaves my hands. It doesn't become my book anymore.

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Speaker 3: It becomes the book of the reader, of the manager

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Speaker 3: or the aspiring manager. And I would love to hear

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Speaker 3: what they make of it and what they do with it.

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Speaker 3: What are their micro habits? What did they populate the

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Speaker 3: yes list with? Are they creating a time portfolio? Are

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Speaker 3: they using the delegation dial? So? I would really love

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Speaker 3: to know what are the lived experiences of people as

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Speaker 3: a result of having read this book.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely sounds wonderful. Well Sabina, thank you so much for

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Speaker 2: joining us. Thank you to everyone who listened to this.

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Speaker 2: Please check out her book, You're the Boss, And if

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Speaker 2: you have feedback on this or any other episode, you

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Speaker 2: can reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.

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Speaker 2: In the meantime, this is Laura, Thanks for listening, and

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Speaker 2: here's to making the most of our time.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas,

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Speaker 1: or feedback, you can reach me at Laura at Laura

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Speaker 1: vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: app podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,