WEBVTT - Confession 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:06.760 I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:09.559 last twenty five years writing about true crime. 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.800 And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:16.400 worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:19.799 Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:21.720 compelling true crimes. 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:24.239 And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:26.040 new insights to old mysteries. 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:31.639 Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.360 cases through a twenty first century lens. 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.800 Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:45.720 This is buried Bones. 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:03.240 Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you. 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:07.920 I'm doing well. We've got Easter coming up. What kind 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:10.839 of Easter traditions do you guys having Do you celebrate Easter? 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:14.840 First of all, you know, we would do when the 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:17.440 kids were younger, we would do the Easter basket and 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:21.240 hide the eggs type of thing. Even like when I 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:23.520 was a kid, you know, I was born and raised Catholic, 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:25.959 you know, so of course Easter was a big deal 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:30.399 and going to Mass and stuff. But now my kids 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:33.600 are older, I think my wife will get them some 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:36.160 basket with chocolates in it, and that's about it. 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:40.360 Oh, they don't look for Easter eggs anymore, not even 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:42.120 like the plastic kind of Easter eggs. 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:43.479 No, thank god. 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:46.400 Do you know that My mom would do hard boiled 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:49.080 eggs and I wouldye them, and then she would hide them. 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:52.440 But she would hide them, I feel like, the night before, 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:56.680 and then they were sitting out until noon or one 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.000 o'clock the next day, and then she would use them 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:03.440 for deviled eggs. And I think, decades later, I said, 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.400 I don't think this is a good idea. I should 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:09.839 boiled eggs sit out for that long? I mean, you 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:12.080 know better than I do. That doesn't seem like a 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:12.840 good idea to me. 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:16.560 I don't know, because one of the interesting things, you know, 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:18.200 I eat a lot of eggs. You know, eggs are 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:21.720 my staple for breakfast. But it's like here in the 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:27.760 United States, we refrigerate our eggs. Over in Europe they don't. Yeah, true, 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:30.720 you know, so if you boil them, you know, maybe 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:34.040 there's no reason to have to keep them refrigerated. So 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:37.040 maybe they're fine up to a certain point. I'm guessing 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:38.480 that's all it is at this point. 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:43.200 So my mom is kind of exonerated from having any 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.680 bad poisoning me after you say that we could maybe 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:49.360 like keep them outside. Issue number two with leaving the 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:52.400 eggs out all night is we have so many raccoons 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:58.000 and deer that jump our f and bugs and dirt 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:02.679 and snakes and everything. I still say it was bad parenting. 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:04.960 I love my mom, but that was not a great idea. 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:07.200 I feel like because she would hide an egg and 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:09.200 then she didn't know where the egg went, and I said, 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:12.480 that's because a raccoon probably took it, And now you 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:13.280 want me to eat it. 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:17.639 Yeah, no, for sure, But man, you're harsh. Bad parenting. 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:21.400 Huh oh, maybe not parenting, fit boy, I do. Parenting 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:23.919 fails pretty much constantly. I think every day. I think 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:25.760 I just did about an hour and a half ago. 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:28.320 Actually, I think we all do. 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:32.920 Actually, so we hide plastic eggs and the kids, you know, 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:34.960 will hunt around for them and stuff, and they still 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:37.640 do it, and you know, we'll have sort of a 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:42.080 traditional Easter afternoon dinner. We're not religious at all, so 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:45.640 it's mostly about the bunny rabbit. My grandfather, who was 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:49.520 my dad's father, lived in Missouri. He was a carpenter, 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:51.960 and he was married to my granny for decades and 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:54.600 decades and decades, and they were the ones I feel 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:57.280 like I told you in another case, those were the 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:00.920 grandparents who slept in separate beds, which I found, even 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:04.440 at eight weird. I didn't understand it. And you know, 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:06.800 they had twin beds and they were on the other 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:08.560 side of the room, which I don't know what that means. 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:10.440 I mean, I would think they would be closer together, 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:13.280 but they had twin beds. My papa had like a 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:16.960 massive it was like four acres garden, all vegetables. They 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:20.039 had a root cellar, all this stuff in Missouri, and 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:21.920 he used to tell me that he was going to 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:25.880 sit outside with a gun and chase off the Easter Bunny. 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:28.480 Of course, I just thought, you're so mean. 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:30.320 I mean, I know he was kind of a farmer type, 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:32.279 but I mean I get it. You know, nobody wants 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:36.440 their garden invaded, but the Easter bunny really Papa. 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:39.039 Yeah, well, at least he wasn't out on the porch 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:41.240 with a shotgun when Santa Claus was going to come. Now, 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:43.240 we would have potentially a homicide. 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:46.640 Yeah, and absolutely, well, I mean, you know that strange 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.839 man creeping along your roof. Yes, he probably hadn't thought 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:52.240 about that. He just wanted to scare me a little bit, 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:54.600 I think, And I just thought, it's a bunny rabbit. 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:56.440 Let him have the lettuce. I mean, you know, I 0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:00.000 know he chased off animals. So I had an interesting family. 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:01.560 Sounds like it. 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:06.880 Well, I am taking you to nineteen sixty three Arizona, 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:10.839 and this is a case that, on the surface seems 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:14.279 I think fairly simple, but it was a landmark case. 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:18.240 And you'll find out why. I try to find stories where, 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:21.240 you know, we can say this is the reason why 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:24.200 we have X, Y and Z. Remember the story about 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:28.360 the man who was accused of sexual assault sneaking into 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:31.840 somebody's house and he left his fingerprints in fresh paint, 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:34.560 and that became the landmark case the first time that 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:37.640 fingerprinting was introduced in court. So this is sort of 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:41.240 that kind of case. So as we go along, you know, 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:45.039 this case changes quite a bit to reflect why it's 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:45.839 important today. 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:49.560 Okay, Well, so relatively speaking, it's a more recent case. 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:52.040 It's like brand new, it's like yesterday for us. 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:55.559 Yeah, no, for sure, it's just what five years before 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:56.159 I was born. 0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:58.880 So you keep dating yourself. I like a guy who 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:00.840 does that though. I mean, you know, you're proud of 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:02.000 your age, and I'll lend me too. 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:04.919 It's better than the alternative, right, And you know. 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:07.200 What, my mom says that. Now, I'm going to really 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:10.720 give my mom some props. My mom says that every time, 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:13.800 you know, she says, well, I have friends who don't 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:15.680 want to disclose their age, and I'm proud of it 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:18.040 because you know, a lot of people don't make it 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:21.039 to you know, my mom's age was about eighty. She's 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:23.559 going to be eighty two this year, so I would 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:27.240 be bragging about that too. Yeah, I'll brag about fifty fifty. 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:29.120 I'm happy to have made it this far. 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:34.280 I've got you beat you, do I know? I know? Yeah. 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:39.000 Okay, let's go ahead and set the scene for the story. 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:42.640 We are, as I said before, in nineteen sixty three, Arizona. 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:46.200 This is going to be a landmark case. A warning. 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:50.760 There is a lot involving a sexual assault. You all 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:52.600 know that we try to handle this with a lot 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:56.040 of sensitivity, and Paul does a great job talking about this. 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:58.160 So I just want to give you a warning straight 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:01.159 off the top. So here is the crime. We're going 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:04.960 to jump right into it before midnight, shortly before midnight, 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:09.840 March second, nineteen sixty three. We are in Phoenix. An 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:12.720 eighteen year old woman is heading home from her job 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:16.240 at the concession counter at a local movie theater. She 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.640 takes a city bus to a stop that's about three 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:23.000 blocks away from her home, where she lives with her 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:27.320 mother and her sister and her sister's husband. The time 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:31.160 when this happened is a little murky because the woman 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:34.520 says this happened before midnight on March second, but the 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:38.040 police filed the report on March third, so it gets 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:40.600 a little confusing. But we're gonna go with March second. 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:45.640 She will be the victim of a sexual assault, and 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:48.880 I am not going to identify her because it's nineteen 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:52.960 sixty three and I would hope she's still around, so 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:55.600 we're going to leave out her name. But I don't 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:58.920 think it's difficult to find. In the nineteen sixties. Phoenix 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:02.240 is in the middle of it's a huge building boom, 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:05.640 and she lives in a development that's still under construction, 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:08.240 so the sidewalks are dark, they don't seem to have 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:12.600 street lights. She's coming home very late by herself. She 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:15.920 can hear a car pulling up behind her. She kind 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:18.280 of ignores it and keeps walking. The driver gets out 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:20.560 of the car and he runs up behind her and 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:24.880 grabs her by the waist. She says that he presses 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:28.920 something sharp up against the back of her neck. He says, 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:31.680 if you don't scream, I won't hurt you, and she 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:35.160 goes with him and he puts her in the car's 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:39.359 back seat. And before I kind of get to what happens, 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:41.960 I wanted to ask a question because I feel like 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:46.760 I don't know what the current guidance is. If you 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:50.480 are approached by a stranger and he says get into 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:53.360 the car and he does have a weapon or doesn't 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:57.319 have a weapon. I feel like growing up I heard comply, 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.720 that's how you stay alive, because otherwise she you right there, 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:03.520 or he'll force you in and it'll be a really 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:06.960 bad situation, even worse situation. But I feel also like 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:09.840 I've heard quite a bit about no matter what you do, 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:11.960 and I think this is what they teach in schools 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:13.600 to kids. No matter what you do, don't get in 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.400 a car with somebody, fight, scream whatever it is, even 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:18.480 if they have a gun pointed out, you don't do it. 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:22.560 So what's your understanding of what the guidance would be 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:25.880 from safety experts with this, Well. 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:28.560 It's not my understanding. I will tell you from my 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:32.560 casework experience, you never ever let yourself be taken to 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:36.120 a secondary location. I don't care if they've got a gun, 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:38.560 I don't care if they've got a knife. What they're 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:40.959 going to do to you at that secondary location is 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:43.439 going to be far worse and being shot or stabbed 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:49.040 or killed at that contact spot. With my other podcast, 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:53.000 small Town Dicks with Yardley, Dan and Dave, Dan, Dave 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:56.120 and I are coming out law enforcement. We all tell 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:59.920 our listeners don't go to a secondary location. Don't let 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:03.880 let yourself get bound. You know, if you are having 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:08.040 somebody who is trying to force you into a vehicle, 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:12.600 you fight, you kick, you go dead weight, You make 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:16.960 it as hard as possible, and you want to draw 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:22.360 as much attention as possible so somebody else can either 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:25.840 come to your aid or at least get law enforcement rolling. 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:29.800 And oftentimes the offender is not expecting that. He's thinking 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.160 you're going to comply with the gun or the knife, 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:34.040 and now all of a sudden. He's got a fight 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:36.280 on his hands. He's got a lot of noise being made. 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:38.920 There's a good chance at that offender will run off 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:43.559 some won't you know. But that is you know, straight up, 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:47.240 because I've just seen what happens to victims when they 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:48.760 go to a secondary location. 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:54.680 Well, luckily this woman survives, but her ordeal is awful. 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:57.960 He has something sharp up against the back of her neck. 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:00.280 He says, if you don't scream, I won't hurt you. 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.440 He puts her in the back seat of his car, 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.760 binds her ankles together with rope. He also ties her 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:09.840 hands behind her back. He drives about twenty minutes into 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:13.679 the desert, remember in Arizona, and he rapes her and 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.240 then he says something odd. He says, pray for me, 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:20.040 and drops her back off in her neighborhood. You know. 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:23.520 She of course goes home, tells her family what happened. 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:26.640 They call the police, doing all the right things. When 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:29.160 the investigators come, she can give a description of the car, 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:32.120 but not the make and model, and she says that 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:34.480 the car was either gray or a light green sedan 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:38.920 with a dark upholstered interior that has stripes, which is 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.600 great that she sounds so specific there, but she can't 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:46.199 give a description of the offender. I don't know if 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:50.400 it's because of trauma or he's masked, but you know, 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:53.280 this is what ends up happening. So what do you 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:55.439 think so far based on all of this. 0:11:56.040 --> 0:12:01.600 Well, there's plenty of examples where these sexually motivated offenders 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:07.080 abduct their victims, sexually assault them, and then take them back, 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.440 either to the abduction location or to some other location 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:16.120 and drop them off. At least within this offender's mind 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:20.079 right now, he doesn't have the homicidal ideations, at least 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:25.200 not yet. If he is unmasked and is letting this 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:29.080 victim go, you know, that's that's interesting because he's not 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:33.200 taking you know, in nineteen sixty three, most certainly would 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:36.320 be aware that this victim is going to be talking 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:39.199 to law enforcement and likely would be able to provide 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:42.320 a pretty accurate description of him. So it kind of 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.440 tells me a little bit about this offender that he's 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:49.079 not being as as careful as he should if he 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:51.360 wants to continue to get away, either get away with 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:54.599 this particular crime or to continue to offend. You know, 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.839 because this type of offender, you know, abducting strangers and 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:02.080 sexually assaulting them. That general is considered a predatory type crime, 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:04.560 and they do that over and over and over again. 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.360 In some ways, he's kind of almost rolling the dice 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:13.280 and willingly so to where maybe, you know, especially with 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:17.040 the statement pray for me, you know, he knows that 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:21.360 he has a fantasy life that society does not agree with, 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.280 that he's committing a crime. He wants to be caught, 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:26.440 but he's not willing to give himself up. 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:33.120 Okay, what happens next disturbs me, of course, you know, 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:35.880 anything involving is a sexual assault disturbs me. But what 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.480 the police do next I had not heard, and maybe 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:43.560 you have. The survivor goes to the station to be 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:48.000 interviewed and they make her take a polygraph test. Have 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:49.080 you heard that before? 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:51.040 I hate to say it, but this is this is 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:54.439 an era in which law enforcement did a lot of 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:58.079 victim blaming. I saw it over and over again from 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:02.360 cases out of the nineteen six nineteen seventies, and here, 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.600 right off the bat, they are telling this victim, well, 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:08.920 you got to prove yourself that you're telling the truth. Right. 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:15.240 It very much was this misogynistic type of mentality that 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:17.960 law enforcement had back in the day. And remember nineteen 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:22.840 sixty three, law enforcement's all male, very few females are working. 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:27.480 There almost was a you know, mindset, well, you shouldn't 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:30.640 have dressed that way, and that is what's happening to 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:31.600 this victim here. 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:34.120 Yeah, first of all, let's go back and talk about 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:38.280 polygraph tests in general, which we know are unreliable from 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:42.320 American sherlock. You know, I can't remember what year it was, 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:44.440 but it was like nineteen twenty five. I think that 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:47.600 in that time period where even the Supreme Court said 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:50.360 these should not be admitted in court. You know, this 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:53.240 is not reliable enough because so much can change your 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:56.360 heart rate, your pulse, everything can change based on medication, 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:58.560 how you're feeling that. I mean, you know, a host 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:02.520 of things that can't be attributed to lying. I think 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:04.640 you and I have talked about that. It's an effective 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:09.760 interrogation technique, but certainly not something that can point definitively 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:10.600 to someone's guilt. 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:13.320 It's a tool, Yeah, that's all it is, you know, 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:17.160 and you know, poligraphers will you know, pretty much defend 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:21.920 their results, but also they recognize the variables that can 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:26.640 skew the results. Oftentimes what we get an investigation from 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:30.880 a polygraph because the person that's being hooked up to 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:35.760 the instrument, they now are in a position to where, 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:38.640 oh shit, they're going to know if I'm lying. And 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:43.800 so sometimes certain individuals will now tell the truth. Other 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:47.640 individuals will just straight up continue to lie. But it 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:52.360 locks them into statements, and some of the most valuable 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:58.440 investigative statements come out of the polygraph interview. You get 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.360 questioned while you're hooked up to the instrument. Polygrapher goes off, 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:04.560 he comes back, he's got instrument readouts, and he says, okay, Paul, 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:07.520 you answered these questions right, but I have concern about 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:11.000 this question. The next thing, you know, somebody is just like, well, 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:13.040 you know, trying to make something up in order to 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:15.520 say why the instrument is thrown off. And then a 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:19.440 discussion follows, and next thing you know, they're making admissions, 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:24.200 which now the homicide investigators or sexual assault investigators go, okay, 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:26.320 we got the right guy. Now we need to do 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:29.320 we need to do some follow up. It's a tool, 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:33.800 you know, There's no way you can you know, affect 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:36.560 an arrest based off of failing a polygraph. 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:40.280 Well it is inconclusive. And in two thousand and five, 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:42.880 I thought this was interesting. In two thousand and five, right, 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:46.600 so twenty years ago, the Violence Against Women Act withdrew 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:51.640 some federal funding from states that still required rape survivors 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:55.840 to take polygraph tests. So this is what's stunning to me. 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:58.600 As it stands, at least twenty five states have since 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:02.800 banned this practice. This leaves the other states who still 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:05.359 do it, And that's incredible to me. I just had 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.160 never heard that before, so that it's good to know, 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:09.879 you know, that this is something that gives me a 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:12.000 lot of context, that this is something you know that 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:13.200 happened in the past. 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:16.640 You know. And I do just want to say, you know, obviously, 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:20.280 when you have a victim come in, you have to 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:24.160 listen to that victim and take what they are saying 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:29.640 as being fact. Right, this is what they experienced. However, 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.800 we do have victims lie. They make up things, you know, 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:36.480 and so as you investigate, if you do find out 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:39.959 this victim is likely lying, then of course you have 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:42.639 to figure out, well, what is going on here, but 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:46.640 to treat like in this case, this victim straight off 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:49.520 the bat to hook somebody up to a polygraph before 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:54.280 even hearing what happened and starting the investigation is just 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:56.840 straight up wrong, right, And she's. 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:59.160 Not accusing anybody yet. I mean, it's not like there's 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:02.280 some wealthy, you know, young man whose life is on 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:05.399 the line because this woman is accusing him of something. 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:08.600 There isn't even an investigation yet. This is her, you know, 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:12.840 a contention, So okay, let's move on. So there was 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:16.439 a detailed interior description of the car, but not the exterior. 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:21.000 But the description of the car matches descriptions that have 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:24.600 been given to the police in reports of other assaults. 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:27.000 She says it was a gray or a light green 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:31.960 sedan with dark upholstered interior that had stripes. I mean, 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:35.960 that still seems kind of vague, But people who have 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:39.720 been survivors of other similar attacks are coming back with 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.560 the same description of the car. So does that seem 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:44.880 reliable to you? I mean, police are going to really 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:47.080 lean into this too well. 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.560 I think in terms of, you know, is it reliable 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:55.320 necessarily to be able to link these crimes together conclusively? No, 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:59.520 you know, what is the prevalence of this style interior 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:03.640 at this point in time? But in terms of this 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:06.639 is a detail of if these if these crimes are 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:09.320 similar enough to where these all these victims are saying 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.920 I was inside the offender's vehicle and this is what 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:15.760 the interior of the vehicle look like, then it is 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:19.200 a characteristic where you have to consider this may be 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:22.520 the same offender. Now if you have other behaviors, how 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:25.320 these women are abducted, you know, how he is sexually 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:28.720 assaulting them, what his appearance is like, and all these 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.720 seem to be within sort of a you'd say it's 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:35.000 a bracket, you know, in terms of each characteristic falls 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:38.640 within a bracket where it doesn't deviate too much from 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:41.360 each other. Then you go, okay, there's a good likelihood 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.400 that we have a serial rapist on the loose here. 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:52.240 So the police cannot find this car. And about a 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:56.359 week later after this woman's attack, this woman's brother in 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:58.800 law has been escorting her to and from the bus 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:03.080 ever since the rape happened. At some point, he spots 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:06.600 a car that matches his sister in law's description. The 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:10.600 car leaves before the woman's bus arrives, but comes back. 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.440 Once the woman and the brother in law are there together, 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:17.080 she confirms that it looks like the right car, and 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:20.040 he runs after it, but the car speeds away once 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:23.400 he sees somebody as chasing him, and the brother in law, 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:27.000 thank goodness, jots down a partial plate number. This car 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:30.119 turns out to be a nineteen fifty three Packard and 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:33.359 it's registered to a woman. But she lives with a 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:36.000 man who is twenty three and his name is Arnisto. 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:39.639 I can tell you about Arnisto. I can talk about 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:42.879 what ends up happening when police locate him. And remember 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:44.920 this is a very significant case and you're going to 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:45.880 find out in just a bit. 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:48.240 Well, I think, you know. I think the first comment 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:51.800 is is that you know, the victim being able to say, hey, 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:56.000 that looks like the car. It's basically okay, this looks 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:58.440 like the make and model car that the offender used 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:00.879 that she was put into. And I'm assuming that they 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:03.600 must have been close enough to the vehicle possibly to 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:05.920 be able to see, oh, it's got the striped upholstery 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:10.200 on the inside. So she's not saying that guy looks 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:12.639 like the guy that's actually assaulted me. She's saying, that 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:17.040 looks like the car. Okay, So it's most certainly something 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:20.120 where it's okay, that's good. Now we have an understanding 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:23.000 of the making model that the offender was using, potentially 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:26.479 and a nineteen fifty three packard you know, I'm I 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:31.600 know of the packard vehicles. I don't think they were 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:34.840 exceptionally common, but that would be something that I would 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:38.199 be kind of wanting to know as an investigator. Is okay, 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:41.280 So is this just a you know, we have a 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:43.520 ton of these, you know, driving around the city, or 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:46.520 is this something that is relatively rare that I don't know, 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:48.440 but I would want I would be wanting to dig 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:50.520 into that before I put a lot of weight on. 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:53.919 You know, the person that has access to this vehicle 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:58.359 is possibly her attacker. So that's probably the first observation 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:01.440 that I have. And then you know, the registered owner 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:03.840 being a woman, Well, we know a woman isn't the 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:07.119 one that is attacking the victim. But we have a 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:10.639 twenty three year old male, you know, our nesto. So, now, 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:14.560 based off of what the victim could recount about her offender, 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:18.439 does this our nesto seem to match? I know you 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:21.480 said that she could not remember much about the physical 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:23.040 characteristics of this offender. 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:26.119 Yeah, not at all. I mean she did at the 0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:29.800 time that she couldn't recall anything specific, but for. 0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:32.800 Law enforcements, there seems to be other cases that are 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:38.120 matching this victim's case in terms of the vehicle. So 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:41.080 what are these other victims saying about the you know, 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:44.959 the physical characteristics of their offender, and does our Nesto 0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:47.439 match that. That's kind of what I would be looking 0:22:47.480 --> 0:22:50.320 at if I'm considering these cases as being related. 0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:52.840 I'll tell you because I do have descriptions of what 0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:55.240 happens in these other cases too, and we can kind 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:59.560 of see that. On March thirteenth, nineteen sixty three, the 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:03.240 police come to his house where he lives, or Nesta's house, 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:06.159 and ask him to come down for questioning. According to 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:09.880 the police, or Nesto is friendly and helpful, unbothered, and 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:13.320 he talks freely with the police. This seems unusual to me, 0:23:13.520 --> 0:23:16.000 and I don't know if he is the person. I 0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:17.720 don't know if this is someone who thinks he can 0:23:17.720 --> 0:23:20.359 out smart the police and you know, just sort of 0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:23.040 kind of skate through this, but you know he is 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:25.679 he is someone who does not seem alarmed by the 0:23:25.680 --> 0:23:28.679 fact that he's being brought in for questioning. For it 0:23:28.760 --> 0:23:31.240 sounds like at least one sexual assault, and I'm assuming 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:32.879 they're going to try to tie him to the others. 0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:36.359 Sure, but there are plenty of people that respond that way. Okay, 0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:39.480 you really can't draw conclusions. You're just noting that he 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:43.280 seems cooperative. You know, he does not seem nervous, so 0:23:43.960 --> 0:23:46.280 you know, maybe he doesn't have anything to do with this. 0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:49.960 But then there are offenders that when they've been pulled in, 0:23:50.359 --> 0:23:51.400 that's the way they are. 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:53.960 Well, before I get to the interrogation, let me just 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:56.240 tell you a little bit about him. He was born 0:23:56.480 --> 0:24:00.440 in Arizona to a very poverty stricken family. His mother 0:24:00.560 --> 0:24:02.480 died when he was young, and he had a lot 0:24:02.480 --> 0:24:04.520 of brushes with the law when he was a kid. 0:24:05.080 --> 0:24:07.040 He was sent to a reform school when he was 0:24:07.080 --> 0:24:09.840 a teenager. He had some prior rest in California, though 0:24:09.840 --> 0:24:12.960 he wasn't convicted. It doesn't sound like anything violent. He 0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:15.760 lived sort of an itinerant lifestyle in his late teens 0:24:15.760 --> 0:24:18.880 and early twenties, which means he hopped around from place 0:24:18.920 --> 0:24:21.240 to place and job to job, so he didn't have 0:24:21.560 --> 0:24:25.879 roots anywhere. He was convicted in Tennacy for driving a 0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:30.000 stolen car. When he is being questioned for this sexual 0:24:30.000 --> 0:24:33.679 assault by the Phoenix Police. He's working nights on a 0:24:33.720 --> 0:24:37.119 loading dock for a produce company and that's what we 0:24:37.240 --> 0:24:41.280 know about Ernesto. So, you know, the brushes with the law. 0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:45.600 We've talked about that before, that certain rushes with the 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:47.600 law are alarming to you, at least when we talk 0:24:47.640 --> 0:24:51.239 about psychopathy and the potential for violence of somebody later on. 0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:54.840 But these things, you know, he's twenty three, stolen car, 0:24:55.040 --> 0:24:58.600 nothing violent. Is this anything that would alarm you as 0:24:58.640 --> 0:25:01.360 an investigator when you're looking at this case, because right now, 0:25:01.359 --> 0:25:03.679 all it is is he's got a car that people 0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:06.360 are saying might have been involved in, you know, the 0:25:06.400 --> 0:25:08.240 offender being a rapist. 0:25:09.200 --> 0:25:12.040 No, you know, all of it seems to be minor. 0:25:12.359 --> 0:25:16.119 You know, many people have this level of criminality, you know, 0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:18.960 so it doesn't mean doesn't point to anything that would 0:25:19.000 --> 0:25:22.360 indicate that, you know, he potentially is a serial rapist 0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:26.159 or a capable of sexual assault. If he has priors 0:25:25.960 --> 0:25:28.199 as as I think I've talked about before, If he 0:25:28.240 --> 0:25:34.080 has prior sexual assault, particularly sexual assaults on strangers, you know, 0:25:34.160 --> 0:25:36.840 predatory type crime, then that is more of a red 0:25:36.880 --> 0:25:40.960 flag in terms of his past criminality indicating Okay, he's 0:25:41.000 --> 0:25:43.160 capable of this type of crime. And we know these 0:25:43.160 --> 0:25:46.880 types of fenders have a tendency to be recidivous, they 0:25:46.960 --> 0:25:49.840 have a tendency to continue committing these types of crimes. 0:25:50.440 --> 0:25:54.000 Okay, now I'm going to have questions about police conduct 0:25:54.200 --> 0:25:57.200 just in general, when you're interrogating somebody, whether this is 0:25:57.320 --> 0:26:00.320 sort of commonplace or not. Here's point number one, and 0:26:00.359 --> 0:26:02.719 you tell me what you think. They take er Nesto 0:26:03.080 --> 0:26:06.600 to a very small interrogation room. You know, they want 0:26:06.640 --> 0:26:08.680 to try to figure out if he's even the right guy, 0:26:08.800 --> 0:26:12.880 because he does not seem bothered at all that he's there. 0:26:13.200 --> 0:26:16.359 So it's described this interrogation room is described more like 0:26:16.400 --> 0:26:20.439 a cubicle twelve feet squared cubicle, and they refer to 0:26:20.520 --> 0:26:23.879 it as the sweat room. Are you allowed water? Can 0:26:23.920 --> 0:26:26.399 you go to the bathroom? Is that one call? Still? 0:26:26.560 --> 0:26:27.880 One phone call? Still a thing? 0:26:28.560 --> 0:26:33.000 You know? There's when when somebody's brought in to be interviewed, 0:26:33.680 --> 0:26:40.360 there is a level of expected treatment. You know, you're 0:26:40.359 --> 0:26:43.879 not bringing somebody in to you know, put them in 0:26:44.400 --> 0:26:48.760 essentially a jail cell. Typically, yes, he had a part 0:26:48.880 --> 0:26:54.159 of a proper interview is where you're ensuring that the 0:26:54.240 --> 0:26:59.280 subject is reasonably comfortable. Today, law enforcement needs to be 0:26:59.440 --> 0:27:06.120 mindful of the suspects perception. Now under this circumstance, at 0:27:06.119 --> 0:27:08.840 this point in time, I don't think you said he 0:27:08.920 --> 0:27:12.639 was arrested. He was asked to come down to the station. 0:27:13.320 --> 0:27:17.119 He is voluntarily there in this day and age, under 0:27:17.160 --> 0:27:21.320 this set of circumstances. You know, at any point, he 0:27:21.359 --> 0:27:24.600 can decide to get up and leave, and he has 0:27:24.680 --> 0:27:29.919 to have that perception of the capability to get up 0:27:29.920 --> 0:27:31.920 and leave when he is there voluntarily. 0:27:32.880 --> 0:27:39.440 So Smarty, tell me what Ernesto's last name is, Miranda. Yep, 0:27:40.720 --> 0:27:43.760 this is the Miranda Rights case, nineteen sixty three. Yes, 0:27:43.880 --> 0:27:46.080 I can't believe it took till nineteen sixty three to 0:27:46.080 --> 0:27:48.640 sort all this out. But it's an interesting case. 0:27:48.960 --> 0:27:52.320 No, for sure, you know, but this there is a reason, 0:27:52.720 --> 0:27:57.040 because of this case, why people that are in a 0:27:57.119 --> 0:28:03.720 custodial situation, whether they've been told that they are in custody, 0:28:04.480 --> 0:28:08.280 or they perceive that they are in custody, that they 0:28:08.480 --> 0:28:11.919 need to be told their rights. And it's because of 0:28:11.960 --> 0:28:12.440 this case. 0:28:12.920 --> 0:28:15.760 Well, now we're going to find out why. So he 0:28:15.920 --> 0:28:19.679 is questioned for two hours and he denies the rape 0:28:19.960 --> 0:28:22.760 and several other crimes that police are trying to pin 0:28:22.840 --> 0:28:26.600 him on basically just based on the description of his car, 0:28:26.680 --> 0:28:28.760 which does not seem like a wild description, but I 0:28:28.760 --> 0:28:31.360 guess it is. So they're trying to pin him on 0:28:31.560 --> 0:28:34.480 a bunch of different things. So police put him in 0:28:34.520 --> 0:28:36.800 a lineup. Now we need to talk about lineups. Police 0:28:36.800 --> 0:28:39.600 put him in a lineup, and the young woman eighteen 0:28:39.640 --> 0:28:43.440 year old who was raped, as well as another woman 0:28:43.760 --> 0:28:46.880 identify him out of four men, but they say they're 0:28:46.880 --> 0:28:49.880 not positive. I mean, my notes say that the young 0:28:49.920 --> 0:28:53.440 woman really couldn't give him a description, so I don't 0:28:53.480 --> 0:28:56.680 know what would have changed. And then talk about how 0:28:56.880 --> 0:29:01.080 lineups work. Are they the same as in the sixties, we'll. 0:29:00.920 --> 0:29:03.720 See well, and this is where whether you're dealing with 0:29:03.760 --> 0:29:06.760 a photo lineup or you're doing this in person type 0:29:06.760 --> 0:29:13.480 of lineup is Nowadays there are criteria that these lineups 0:29:13.760 --> 0:29:17.640 have to meet in order for them to be to 0:29:17.680 --> 0:29:22.880 have any level of veracity. In terms of if the victim, 0:29:23.240 --> 0:29:25.640 like in this case, is able to pick somebody out 0:29:26.240 --> 0:29:31.360 of the lineup. There isn't anything that would have swayed 0:29:31.400 --> 0:29:34.480 the victim to point at the person that law enforcement 0:29:34.560 --> 0:29:39.640 is considering the suspect. But let's say Ernesto is you know, 0:29:39.680 --> 0:29:41.600 I don't know his size. Let's say he's five six, 0:29:41.640 --> 0:29:44.800 one hundred and fifty pounds, clean shaven, and the other 0:29:44.880 --> 0:29:47.880 three men in this lineup are all above six foot 0:29:47.960 --> 0:29:51.520 and they have facial hair. You know, it's that type 0:29:51.520 --> 0:29:53.680 of thing. And those were some of the things that 0:29:53.800 --> 0:29:56.920 was happening, you know, back in the day, in order 0:29:57.000 --> 0:30:01.240 to get that witness or that victim to point at 0:30:01.280 --> 0:30:04.280 the person that law enforcement has kind of keyed in on, 0:30:04.520 --> 0:30:06.800 in order for law enforcement to write up a report 0:30:06.880 --> 0:30:09.959 saying suspect was picked out of a photo lineup, and 0:30:10.000 --> 0:30:13.920 now they're putting that in a probable cause affidavit for 0:30:14.160 --> 0:30:15.479 arrest for that crime. 0:30:15.960 --> 0:30:18.240 So let's talk about the other case. There was another 0:30:18.280 --> 0:30:21.800 woman who identified him in this lineup, but said, you know, 0:30:21.840 --> 0:30:24.880 I'm not one hundred percent sure. The circumstances from her 0:30:25.000 --> 0:30:28.200 case were that she was grabbed at knife point while 0:30:28.240 --> 0:30:31.360 she was going to her car at night from her 0:30:31.440 --> 0:30:33.440 job as a bank teller. He put her in the 0:30:33.480 --> 0:30:37.200 front bench of her own car, drove a short distance, 0:30:37.600 --> 0:30:41.760 and she was assaulted but not raped, and robbed of 0:30:41.840 --> 0:30:43.920 eight dollars. This seems different. 0:30:44.720 --> 0:30:48.280 It is tough when you have disparate crimes like this. 0:30:48.840 --> 0:30:53.240 Now you have an abduction of females. In both instances, 0:30:54.000 --> 0:30:57.640 you have these females being kidnapped, they're being moved to 0:30:57.720 --> 0:31:02.400 a different location. Okay, there's similarities there, just because one 0:31:02.520 --> 0:31:05.880 case doesn't end in sexual assault and it turns out 0:31:05.920 --> 0:31:09.680 to be essentially a robbery of eight dollars. You know, 0:31:09.720 --> 0:31:12.360 eight dollars is taken by force or fear by this offender. 0:31:13.040 --> 0:31:15.360 Serial rapists will also commit this type of crime and 0:31:15.400 --> 0:31:18.560 not sexually assault somebody, So you can't eliminate them as 0:31:18.640 --> 0:31:22.000 not being related. But I think to your point, yes, 0:31:22.280 --> 0:31:26.680 you can't necessarily say they are related because there isn't 0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:32.640 enough circumstances, behaviors, et cetera that are unique enough to say, yes, 0:31:32.920 --> 0:31:36.600 this appears to be the same individual, the same offender. 0:31:37.120 --> 0:31:39.640 It's just something you have to consider. You know, offenders 0:31:39.640 --> 0:31:43.160 commit multiple types of crimes, so that's just what happens. 0:31:43.200 --> 0:31:47.080 And you know, you take a look at Ernesto's criminal pass, 0:31:47.600 --> 0:31:50.680 this robbery of eight dollars seems to be more in 0:31:50.680 --> 0:31:53.400 line with the types of petty crimes that he's committing 0:31:53.440 --> 0:31:57.240 even though the kidnapp is serious. That's that's a massive, 0:31:57.360 --> 0:32:00.640 major felony that's going on there. But to take the 0:32:00.680 --> 0:32:03.760 eight dollars seems inline, like with maybe some of these 0:32:03.800 --> 0:32:07.280 petty theft arrests that he possibly had in his criminal past. 0:32:07.600 --> 0:32:11.840 Yeah. So remember it was a lineup of Ernesto and 0:32:11.960 --> 0:32:15.120 three other men, and they said it looks like him, 0:32:15.240 --> 0:32:17.440 but we're not one hundred percent sure. That's not what 0:32:17.480 --> 0:32:21.280 the police tell Ernesto and they say that he has 0:32:21.320 --> 0:32:25.720 been positively identified by these two women, and he immediately confesses. 0:32:26.320 --> 0:32:29.000 Now two hours of interrogation. We don't know what that 0:32:29.320 --> 0:32:32.080 involved in. I don't know if about Phoenix, Arizona in 0:32:32.120 --> 0:32:35.360 the sixties, if this was the third degree or what happened. 0:32:35.480 --> 0:32:39.520 But he didn't break until these two women positively identified him. 0:32:39.600 --> 0:32:42.880 I know police can lie, right, I mean how much 0:32:42.920 --> 0:32:45.560 can they lie? When you're interrogating somebody, you're trying to 0:32:45.600 --> 0:32:46.080 trap them. 0:32:46.480 --> 0:32:49.520 You can lie to the person you're talking to, you know, 0:32:49.760 --> 0:32:53.040 with the expectation that if the person's innocent, they will 0:32:53.520 --> 0:32:58.320 stand their ground and in essence tell the interviewer you're wrong. 0:32:58.800 --> 0:33:01.360 You know that wasn't me. I did not you know, 0:33:01.560 --> 0:33:04.480 attack those women or whatever. But we do see with 0:33:04.800 --> 0:33:11.040 select types of suspects that will cave in to an 0:33:11.080 --> 0:33:15.320 interrogation when they are told lies. You know, So it 0:33:15.440 --> 0:33:18.400 is a balance. You know that. This is where you 0:33:18.480 --> 0:33:21.600 have you have an offender, Hey, we've got your DNA. 0:33:22.000 --> 0:33:25.520 In this case, in this sexual assault, the innocent person 0:33:25.600 --> 0:33:28.480 is expected to say, I don't know how that got there. Now, 0:33:28.680 --> 0:33:32.080 guilty guys say the same thing, right, but you expect 0:33:32.160 --> 0:33:36.160 that person, the innocent person, to stand their ground. But 0:33:36.200 --> 0:33:39.400 then you have to evaluate the individual you're talking to. 0:33:39.640 --> 0:33:44.200 And we know individuals that are intellectually challenged, that have 0:33:44.360 --> 0:33:47.440 certain personalities, that are of a certain age, et cetera, 0:33:47.840 --> 0:33:52.000 are more susceptible to caving in, either to being under 0:33:52.040 --> 0:33:56.360 the influence of the interrogator or to caving into the circumstances. 0:33:56.440 --> 0:33:58.520 If I just tell them what they want to hear, 0:33:58.800 --> 0:34:00.320 maybe I'll be let go. 0:34:00.840 --> 0:34:05.080 I've heard circumstances where people say they were interrogated for 0:34:05.120 --> 0:34:08.440 so long, almost days, where they start questioning whether they 0:34:08.440 --> 0:34:10.759 were involved or not. I don't remember the stat from 0:34:10.760 --> 0:34:13.760 the Innocence Project, but it's something like twenty five percent. 0:34:13.920 --> 0:34:18.440 I think wrongful convictions come from false confessions. 0:34:18.239 --> 0:34:22.600 No, for sure, you know. And it's interesting in California 0:34:22.680 --> 0:34:26.960 so that the read interview technique, which has been taught 0:34:27.000 --> 0:34:31.040 forever and it originated out of the Chicago area, has 0:34:31.080 --> 0:34:36.000 been shown to generate false confessions. And so in California, 0:34:36.560 --> 0:34:39.640 I know there's one DA. I think it's Elderiddle County DA. 0:34:39.680 --> 0:34:42.040 I was listening to him at a conference talk about 0:34:42.120 --> 0:34:45.440 how he was championing banning the use of this read 0:34:45.560 --> 0:34:48.760 interrogation technique in California, and I think he was successful. 0:34:48.800 --> 0:34:51.839 I'm not entirely sure I know where that's at, in 0:34:51.920 --> 0:34:56.760 part because it does cause susceptible individuals to falsely confess 0:34:56.800 --> 0:35:00.359 to something they didn't do. You know. It's just way 0:35:00.440 --> 0:35:05.719 that these individuals are manipulated, you know. So it's a balance, 0:35:05.880 --> 0:35:07.799 you know, you want to get the truth out of 0:35:07.840 --> 0:35:11.400 the person, and we know people will lie to protect 0:35:11.480 --> 0:35:13.960 themselves from the crimes that they've committed. So you have 0:35:14.040 --> 0:35:17.760 to somehow figure out a way in order to get 0:35:17.800 --> 0:35:20.359 those facts out or at least get them to make 0:35:20.440 --> 0:35:24.319 statements that are incriminating that a prosecutor can use. But 0:35:24.440 --> 0:35:27.600 at what point do you draw the line in terms 0:35:27.680 --> 0:35:29.759 of what you're willing to do in order to get 0:35:29.800 --> 0:35:32.759 those statements out of that particular suspect. 0:35:33.120 --> 0:35:36.319 Well, this prosecutor you were talking about, can you draw 0:35:36.480 --> 0:35:40.400 briefly a contrast between the read interrogation technique and what 0:35:40.600 --> 0:35:44.880 should be done if you have somebody who's intellectually challenged. 0:35:44.920 --> 0:35:47.000 I mean, what's the different, what's the right and the wrong? 0:35:47.040 --> 0:35:50.319 What does the read technique do that's so manipulative that 0:35:50.360 --> 0:35:51.920 gets these wrongful. 0:35:51.520 --> 0:35:55.480 Convictions fundamentally sort of like what you're hearing here in 0:35:56.000 --> 0:35:59.920 the Miranda case in terms of you know, very confrontation, 0:36:00.520 --> 0:36:04.080 making up these these lies, you know, really trying to 0:36:04.160 --> 0:36:09.160 persuade the individual down a certain tract. You know, back 0:36:09.200 --> 0:36:13.360 in the day before this case, law enforcement was really 0:36:13.400 --> 0:36:16.759 heavy handed in terms of how they would interrogate individuals. 0:36:16.760 --> 0:36:19.880 She's talk about, you know, being you know, kept awake 0:36:20.239 --> 0:36:23.799 for long hours while you are being questioned over and 0:36:23.840 --> 0:36:27.520 over again. And part of the questioning with this tactic 0:36:27.719 --> 0:36:31.680 is just re asking the questions over and over again 0:36:31.840 --> 0:36:34.200 over the course of many hours to where now the 0:36:34.239 --> 0:36:38.120 person's getting frustrated and so now they're going to go, well, 0:36:38.239 --> 0:36:41.000 my cooperation up to this point isn't working, So now 0:36:41.000 --> 0:36:43.040 I'm going to give them what they want, you know, 0:36:43.120 --> 0:36:46.279 and now they've just confessed to a crime. And then 0:36:46.640 --> 0:36:49.720 what I've seen, in fact, I consulted on an innocence 0:36:49.760 --> 0:36:53.080 project case and I won't go into the details, but 0:36:53.200 --> 0:36:56.560 fundamentally what law enforcement was doing back in the day, 0:36:56.560 --> 0:36:58.840 and this was not back in nineteen sixty three. This 0:36:59.000 --> 0:37:03.200 is back in the nineteen nineties. But this particular agency, 0:37:03.239 --> 0:37:07.279 with this particular couple of interviewers, what they do is 0:37:07.320 --> 0:37:12.480 they in essence, tell the suspect the details and make 0:37:12.560 --> 0:37:15.560 the suspect tell those details about the crime back. And 0:37:15.640 --> 0:37:18.480 then the investigator is the one that's typing up this 0:37:18.560 --> 0:37:22.080 is what the suspect said, and there's no recording, and 0:37:22.120 --> 0:37:27.239 then they make the suspect sign that you told us this, right, yes, 0:37:27.360 --> 0:37:30.520 I told you that, and that suspect just now has 0:37:30.680 --> 0:37:35.800 confessed to a crime, and it is so inappropriate. 0:37:35.960 --> 0:37:39.200 Well, what's hard about this case of Ernesto Miranda is 0:37:39.560 --> 0:37:42.560 he is guilty. He's about to give a full confession. 0:37:43.120 --> 0:37:45.719 Not only that he's going to identify the woman that 0:37:45.760 --> 0:37:49.600 he attacked, but you know the way that the police 0:37:49.600 --> 0:37:51.560 handle it and what they have him sign. We have 0:37:51.600 --> 0:37:54.200 to get a little technical here. That's why this case 0:37:54.280 --> 0:37:57.800 was so important. So he signs a form. He says 0:37:57.920 --> 0:38:00.400 in the forum, he's twenty three. His highest level of 0:38:00.520 --> 0:38:03.680 education is eighth grade. And this is his written statement. 0:38:03.880 --> 0:38:06.360 He said, seeing a girl walking up the street, stopped 0:38:06.400 --> 0:38:08.359 a little head of her, got out of the car, 0:38:08.520 --> 0:38:11.399 walked toward her, grabbed her by the arm and asked 0:38:11.400 --> 0:38:14.560 her to get in car. Got in car without force, 0:38:14.719 --> 0:38:19.080 tight her hands at ankles, drove away for a few miles, stopped, 0:38:19.200 --> 0:38:23.080 asked to take clothes off, did not asked me to 0:38:23.120 --> 0:38:26.120 take her home. I started to take clothes off without 0:38:26.160 --> 0:38:29.120 any force, and with cooperation, asked her to lay down, 0:38:29.160 --> 0:38:32.080 and she did. Could not get penis into vagina, got 0:38:32.160 --> 0:38:35.200 about half an inch in, told her to get closed 0:38:35.239 --> 0:38:38.279 back on, drove her home, and I couldn't say I 0:38:38.400 --> 0:38:40.760 was sorry for what I had done, but I asked 0:38:40.800 --> 0:38:44.720 for her to pray for me. So that's what he said, 0:38:45.000 --> 0:38:47.480 and on the form he wrote this statement. On it 0:38:47.680 --> 0:38:51.239 said with full knowledge of my rights, even though he 0:38:51.320 --> 0:38:54.400 was never informed of any rights. And that's where this 0:38:54.480 --> 0:38:57.040 case is. So what do you think about that? First 0:38:57.080 --> 0:38:59.359 his confession? What do you think about the confession? Did 0:38:59.360 --> 0:39:01.960 he write the well here's the thing, Paul, I mean, 0:39:01.960 --> 0:39:05.520 we have a verbatim. There's no punctuation, almost no punctuation 0:39:05.680 --> 0:39:08.120 in here, you know, And I don't know if he 0:39:08.200 --> 0:39:10.439 actually wrote it, wrote it in eighth grade. You would 0:39:10.440 --> 0:39:13.359 think he would be able to, but it's I don't know. 0:39:13.560 --> 0:39:14.720 You're right, it's hard to tell. 0:39:15.160 --> 0:39:18.239 Well, well, this is sort of like that Innocence project. 0:39:18.400 --> 0:39:21.600 Is you know, what had he been told about the crime? 0:39:22.000 --> 0:39:24.080 When I'm assessing statements, and I do this all the 0:39:24.080 --> 0:39:27.399 time in cold cases, is I'm assessing, okay, what what 0:39:27.440 --> 0:39:30.799 did law enforcement know? How did they know it? Is 0:39:30.840 --> 0:39:34.960 this something that during the interviews law enforcement, during their 0:39:35.000 --> 0:39:39.920 interrogator phase, they're now confronting him with facts and you 0:39:39.960 --> 0:39:43.040 know this fact you tried to raper but you only 0:39:43.040 --> 0:39:46.680 could get in so far. Well, now he's fed that detail. 0:39:47.000 --> 0:39:51.520 At what point during the interview is the the person 0:39:51.560 --> 0:39:57.359 being interviewed bringing up this level of detail. And I know, 0:39:57.400 --> 0:40:00.600 when I evaluate a case, I'm off and taking a 0:40:00.719 --> 0:40:03.960 look at the crime scene and the physical evidence and 0:40:04.040 --> 0:40:09.440 interpreting that. And many investigators don't know how to interpret, 0:40:09.920 --> 0:40:12.160 you know, do like a crime scene reconstruction, so they 0:40:12.200 --> 0:40:14.840 never bring those types of details up to the suspect 0:40:14.840 --> 0:40:17.440 that they're talking to. But when I see a suspect 0:40:17.719 --> 0:40:20.879 say something during that interview that matches up with what 0:40:21.040 --> 0:40:23.439 I am seeing in the physical evidence, I'm going, oh, 0:40:23.600 --> 0:40:28.040 he literally knows something that even the investigators don't know. 0:40:28.600 --> 0:40:32.280 Now I'm putting a ton of veracity on that type 0:40:32.440 --> 0:40:36.640 of detail. So, you know, statement analysis in terms of 0:40:36.680 --> 0:40:40.400 assessing you know, like what Arnesto is saying, you know, 0:40:40.480 --> 0:40:43.920 that's where Okay, who's writing this? At what stage is 0:40:43.920 --> 0:40:46.600 he writing? This? Is towards the end of the interrogation? 0:40:47.200 --> 0:40:50.160 Was this recorded? Was this? Were these details that he 0:40:50.320 --> 0:40:53.920 was fed by the detectives during an interrogation, and now 0:40:53.960 --> 0:40:57.279 he's just regurgitating them because he just wants to be done. 0:40:57.680 --> 0:41:00.640 Remember what I said. You know, they're selecting individuals in 0:41:00.680 --> 0:41:03.239 our society that are more susceptible to these types of 0:41:03.280 --> 0:41:07.040 interrogative tactics and will falsely confess. One of those is 0:41:07.120 --> 0:41:10.880 going to be that kind of that limited intellectual aspect. 0:41:11.600 --> 0:41:14.440 Ernesto has an eighth grade education and he's twenty three 0:41:14.520 --> 0:41:18.160 years old. He's satisfying one of those characteristics of yea, 0:41:18.320 --> 0:41:20.880 he might be susceptible. Now I'm not saying, you know 0:41:20.960 --> 0:41:24.319 that he's innocent of these crimes. But what I am 0:41:24.360 --> 0:41:26.760 saying is is that there's a reason why this became 0:41:26.800 --> 0:41:28.200 a landmark case. 0:41:28.760 --> 0:41:30.800 Well, let me tell you how we keep going here. 0:41:31.239 --> 0:41:34.400 He identifies the eighteen year old woman that we started 0:41:34.400 --> 0:41:38.919 the story with who he sexually assaulted, and then he said, 0:41:39.000 --> 0:41:42.759 I also did a robbery and an attempted robbery. He said, 0:41:42.760 --> 0:41:45.600 in both of those cases, the women have been assaulted 0:41:46.120 --> 0:41:51.600 but escaped before being raped. The robbery was eight dollars 0:41:51.600 --> 0:41:53.360 and he took it from a survivor who is a 0:41:53.360 --> 0:41:57.279 bank teller. After this statement, he's arrested and booked in 0:41:57.400 --> 0:42:01.800 the Maricopa County jail. The prosecutor ends up filing charges 0:42:02.080 --> 0:42:07.040 on the rape and the robbery, not like the attempted robbery. 0:42:07.719 --> 0:42:10.200 So there were three cases that they were interested in 0:42:10.239 --> 0:42:14.399 with him. Again the detail about the bank teller, and 0:42:14.800 --> 0:42:17.480 you know a couple of other details. But right because 0:42:17.480 --> 0:42:21.080 of this is a Miranda case. The Miranda case, we 0:42:21.160 --> 0:42:24.640 have to think about what investigators did to get this information, 0:42:24.920 --> 0:42:26.920 so they're untrustworthy unfortunately. 0:42:27.680 --> 0:42:29.719 Well, you know, and part of what I want to 0:42:29.800 --> 0:42:33.480 hear from Miranda, you know, as he's giving his statements 0:42:33.520 --> 0:42:36.799 is I want to hear his perspective on how the 0:42:36.880 --> 0:42:41.200 crime was committed. Not what I'm hearing you telling me 0:42:41.320 --> 0:42:44.120 is well, these are the types of statements that the 0:42:44.239 --> 0:42:47.560 victim would be saying. I want to hear his perspective. 0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:51.160 I initially saw this victim at this location. I followed 0:42:51.239 --> 0:42:55.680 her until we got to this particular location. I got out, 0:42:55.760 --> 0:42:58.399 I went around this corner of the front of my car. 0:42:58.520 --> 0:43:01.840 You know something where he's walking through committing the crime 0:43:02.280 --> 0:43:07.280 versus regurgitating. She was a bank teller. Well, law enforcement 0:43:07.320 --> 0:43:10.960 knows she's a bank teller, right, you know, I need 0:43:11.000 --> 0:43:14.719 to hear something sort of outside of what I've heard 0:43:14.760 --> 0:43:17.400 so far. I you know, of course I'm familiar with 0:43:18.120 --> 0:43:22.600 you know why Miranda exists. I'm not real familiar with 0:43:22.719 --> 0:43:26.879 the crimes that Miranda committed. To get to the point 0:43:26.920 --> 0:43:28.960 to where now we have this landmark case. 0:43:29.280 --> 0:43:32.400 Right, I'll tell you more about these trials. There's two trials, 0:43:32.520 --> 0:43:36.560 because remember there is a robbery and then there's the rape. 0:43:37.120 --> 0:43:39.560 So he goes on trial for the robbery first in 0:43:39.680 --> 0:43:42.759 June of nineteen sixty three. It takes a day. He 0:43:42.840 --> 0:43:46.919 has a court appointed attorney who follows emotion indicating that 0:43:47.000 --> 0:43:50.759 he intends to plead insanity, and the court has two 0:43:50.880 --> 0:43:54.640 psychiatrists examine him. One of the psychiatrists says that he 0:43:54.800 --> 0:43:59.680 has an emotional illness that the psychiatrist classifies as a 0:43:59.719 --> 0:44:04.520 quote schizophrenic reaction of the chronic undifferentiated type. At the 0:44:04.520 --> 0:44:08.120 same time, he concludes that Miranda was unaware of his 0:44:08.200 --> 0:44:11.719 actions but aware that he did something wrong. Meantime, the 0:44:11.760 --> 0:44:14.920 other psychiatrist says he's just immature and unstable and he 0:44:14.960 --> 0:44:19.000 doesn't see any evidence of psychosis. So we have the 0:44:19.120 --> 0:44:24.120 arresting officer and the woman who was robbed testify and 0:44:24.160 --> 0:44:27.320 the jury comes back with the unanimous guilty verdict. That afternoon. 0:44:27.640 --> 0:44:30.560 They're waiting on what happens with the rape trial to 0:44:30.760 --> 0:44:33.359 deal with sentencing, and the rape trial is the next day. 0:44:33.520 --> 0:44:36.759 I want to definitely talk about the diagnosis from one 0:44:36.800 --> 0:44:40.759 of the psychiatrists about schizophrenia, because you know, you are 0:44:40.840 --> 0:44:47.200 talking about vulnerable people and being subjected to unethical interrogation techniques, 0:44:47.960 --> 0:44:51.560 so so far, what are you hearing in this because 0:44:51.560 --> 0:44:53.960 he confessed to the robbery as well as you know, 0:44:54.200 --> 0:44:55.200 these other crimes too. 0:44:55.680 --> 0:44:58.400 Yeah, you know, it's it's really tough, you know, to 0:44:58.600 --> 0:45:04.319 assess kind of the mental health aspect and how that 0:45:04.400 --> 0:45:10.200 plays into this case. Most certainly, I'm familiar with schizophrenia, 0:45:11.200 --> 0:45:15.480 but in terms of wherever he's at a long sort 0:45:15.520 --> 0:45:21.280 of this spectrum a schizophrenia. He's twenty three, we know generally, 0:45:21.520 --> 0:45:23.960 you know, in the early twenties. Oftentimes this is when 0:45:24.000 --> 0:45:28.040 schizophrenia starts to manifest itself and then it progresses from 0:45:28.040 --> 0:45:32.080 that point. I can only right now speculate from my 0:45:32.360 --> 0:45:36.560 dvantage point that, yeah, schizophrenia may be something that would 0:45:37.239 --> 0:45:42.719 influence Miranda in terms of how he interacts under an 0:45:42.760 --> 0:45:47.480 interrogator setting. I mean that is way outside my level 0:45:47.520 --> 0:45:50.239 of expertise. You know, for me, what I'm assessing a 0:45:50.800 --> 0:45:55.400 let's say prime and we start talking psychosis. You know, 0:45:55.440 --> 0:45:59.959 a psychotic offender, a true disorganized offender that has mental 0:46:00.200 --> 0:46:03.560 health issue that is so extreme they're unaware that they 0:46:03.600 --> 0:46:06.040 are committing a crime that is wrong. This is your 0:46:06.080 --> 0:46:10.320 true insanity. I can't form any type of opinion. Does 0:46:10.480 --> 0:46:13.759 you know Miranda fall within that type of vendor. You 0:46:13.840 --> 0:46:17.319 have one of the psychiatrists saying he's not at the 0:46:17.400 --> 0:46:21.480 level of a psychosis, right, I think that's what you said. However, 0:46:21.800 --> 0:46:25.920 both psychiatrists, though somewhat different in their opinions, are saying 0:46:26.000 --> 0:46:30.440 he does have some sort of mental health aspect to him, 0:46:30.760 --> 0:46:34.000 you know, and so that kind of underscores from my perspective. Okay, 0:46:34.120 --> 0:46:37.920 he is a vulnerable suspect, and so the interview of 0:46:37.920 --> 0:46:42.200 somebody like that needs to be handled in a different 0:46:42.200 --> 0:46:45.279 way than likely it was handled in terms of a 0:46:45.440 --> 0:46:47.080 hardcore interrogation. 0:46:47.760 --> 0:46:50.520 Here's the rape trial. It happens the next day. The 0:46:50.520 --> 0:46:54.719 defense tries to shake the survivor's story. She is very 0:46:54.760 --> 0:46:58.880 consistent and believable. The lawyer, for lack of a better phrase, 0:46:58.920 --> 0:47:04.040 completely fucks up his attorney so states Exhibit one is 0:47:04.320 --> 0:47:08.600 Miranda's signed statement which admitted to the rape. But his 0:47:08.640 --> 0:47:11.880 own attorney calls it a confession. No one else in 0:47:11.920 --> 0:47:13.600 the court has called it a confession. They say it's 0:47:13.600 --> 0:47:17.640 a statement. So the prosecutor, at the very end in 0:47:17.680 --> 0:47:21.040 his closing statement set even his own attorney, says he's confessed, 0:47:21.440 --> 0:47:24.120 and this is that. So I mean, this will of 0:47:24.160 --> 0:47:27.480 course set up a pretty decent appeal from Miranda. But 0:47:28.239 --> 0:47:32.520 the defense doesn't dispute the validity of this confession statement thing, 0:47:32.760 --> 0:47:36.480 And within minutes the jury comes back with a guilty 0:47:36.560 --> 0:47:39.880 verdict and he sentenced to twenty to thirty years for 0:47:40.000 --> 0:47:42.920 each count the kidnapping and the rape, and he's also 0:47:43.000 --> 0:47:46.399 sentenced to twenty five years for the robbery. If this 0:47:46.560 --> 0:47:48.840 man's last name were not Miranda, this would be the 0:47:48.920 --> 0:47:51.960 end of our story. But in the sixties, lawyers and 0:47:52.040 --> 0:47:55.719 activists had already started being critical of you know, what 0:47:55.800 --> 0:47:59.839 the constitutional rights are when you are being interrogated by 0:47:59.840 --> 0:48:02.360 the police. And that's why this case turns into a 0:48:02.360 --> 0:48:07.000 big case. So in sixty three, the original lawyer who 0:48:07.120 --> 0:48:10.080 defended Miranda is a guy named Alvin Moore. He files 0:48:10.080 --> 0:48:13.920 an appeal. And there are other cases involving coerced or 0:48:13.960 --> 0:48:17.400 improperly attained confessions that have drawn a lot of national 0:48:17.440 --> 0:48:22.360 attention and established the right for an attorney during interrogations 0:48:22.440 --> 0:48:26.719 under the sixth Amendment. So Moore's basis for this appeal 0:48:26.760 --> 0:48:29.239 to the Arizona Supreme Court is that his confession was 0:48:29.280 --> 0:48:33.439 improperly received as evidence. The state Supreme Court disagrees and 0:48:33.600 --> 0:48:37.359 they uphold the conviction. But there is a lot more 0:48:37.440 --> 0:48:40.840 happening here where eventually, I mean, just to kind of 0:48:40.840 --> 0:48:44.640 shorthand this you know, this takes a very windy road 0:48:45.280 --> 0:48:49.359 and the ACLU gets involved. There's another case in California 0:48:49.400 --> 0:48:53.239 with the California Supreme Court, and that court ruled that 0:48:53.400 --> 0:48:57.759 before a suspect is interrogated, he has to be expressly 0:48:57.800 --> 0:49:00.959 informed of his right to an attorney, and Miranda wasn't. 0:49:01.719 --> 0:49:04.560 So Arizona and California were contradicting each other as a 0:49:04.560 --> 0:49:07.760 matter of constitutional law. And this is where Robert Corkran, 0:49:07.800 --> 0:49:11.359 the retired attorney, decides to step in and he takes 0:49:11.400 --> 0:49:13.520 over the case. Now do you want to do a 0:49:13.560 --> 0:49:16.000 shorthand of what happens or what do you I mean, 0:49:16.080 --> 0:49:19.400 this is such a massive case. We don't know if 0:49:19.440 --> 0:49:21.680 he's guilty, but it sure sounds like it to me. 0:49:22.160 --> 0:49:24.680 But that's not the point, you know. The point is 0:49:25.239 --> 0:49:28.680 establishing your rights, you know, and everybody, even guilty people, 0:49:28.760 --> 0:49:29.360 need rights. 0:49:30.200 --> 0:49:33.440 I know of the Miranda case, but in terms of 0:49:33.480 --> 0:49:36.920 the legal path up to the Supreme Court, not familiar 0:49:36.920 --> 0:49:40.640 with that at all. You know, fundamentally, my training when 0:49:40.640 --> 0:49:44.120 I was with law enforcement, you know, was with Miranda. 0:49:44.760 --> 0:49:48.040 Of course, you're informing the person that you're interviewing of 0:49:48.080 --> 0:49:51.160 their rights, you know, the right to remain silent the 0:49:51.239 --> 0:49:55.359 right to have an attorney. But the primary criteria that 0:49:55.520 --> 0:50:00.439 impacts law enforcement needing to inform this person of their 0:50:00.560 --> 0:50:05.200 rights is the custodial status. Is this person in custody 0:50:05.440 --> 0:50:08.960 which means they are not free to leave? Or does 0:50:09.040 --> 0:50:12.799 a person have perception of custody? And I believe this 0:50:12.880 --> 0:50:17.120 isn't necessarily addressed under the miranda case. There's other case 0:50:17.200 --> 0:50:21.040 law related to perception of custody. So as an example, 0:50:21.120 --> 0:50:24.400 the way you set, let's say a suspect up in 0:50:24.480 --> 0:50:28.520 an interview room and now you have two big burly 0:50:28.600 --> 0:50:32.839 detectives that are between that suspect and the door, and 0:50:32.880 --> 0:50:36.160 that suspect has just been told you can leave any time, 0:50:36.880 --> 0:50:40.640 but he has to push through these two cops. Maybe 0:50:40.640 --> 0:50:43.000 one of the cops is in uniform. That person has 0:50:43.000 --> 0:50:46.319 a perception I'm not free to leave. So under that 0:50:46.360 --> 0:50:50.080 set of circumstances, this is where now law enforcement is going, Okay, 0:50:50.320 --> 0:50:53.719 generally good, you know, and there's a balance. You know, 0:50:53.760 --> 0:50:56.480 you don't want to mirandize somebody if you don't have to, 0:50:56.840 --> 0:50:58.960 or now you just have told this person shut up. 0:50:59.239 --> 0:51:03.440 You want this person to cooperate, But if you recognize, okay, 0:51:03.480 --> 0:51:06.080 this person is talking to me voluntarily, and they're free 0:51:06.120 --> 0:51:09.799 to leave, but there might be a perception that on 0:51:09.880 --> 0:51:12.160 their part that they're not free to leave because maybe 0:51:12.239 --> 0:51:14.759 the way our station house is set up. You know, 0:51:15.280 --> 0:51:18.560 you air on the side of caution, and you mirandize 0:51:18.600 --> 0:51:22.200 them right and hope that that person is still going 0:51:22.239 --> 0:51:25.000 to want to be able to cooperate and provide statements 0:51:25.000 --> 0:51:29.360 so you can further your investigation. There's almost a tactical 0:51:29.400 --> 0:51:32.080 way of having to approach. You have to assess your suspect, 0:51:32.120 --> 0:51:34.399 the situation that you're talking to the suspect, and whether 0:51:34.520 --> 0:51:39.480 or not it truly does require to mirandize them or not, 0:51:39.920 --> 0:51:41.920 or is it in the gray area yep? And then 0:51:42.000 --> 0:51:44.320 generally it's sort of like, oh, you better err on 0:51:44.360 --> 0:51:46.839 the side of caution, because if you don't, pretty much 0:51:46.880 --> 0:51:49.040 you have just killed the case. If they find out 0:51:49.080 --> 0:51:50.880 that you should have mirandized them. 0:51:51.040 --> 0:51:52.840 This goes all the way to the Supreme Court. And 0:51:52.880 --> 0:51:55.279 there has to be clarity because there are a lot 0:51:55.280 --> 0:51:57.920 of cases that are now coming forward where people are saying, 0:51:58.120 --> 0:52:00.880 you're talking about intimidation with the police. A lot of 0:52:00.880 --> 0:52:04.680 the arguments are I'm not educated enough to know, you know, 0:52:04.840 --> 0:52:09.800 Paul holds the banker probably knows his rights, but Miranda didn't. 0:52:10.520 --> 0:52:14.000 And so what the Supreme Court eventually votes five to four, 0:52:14.480 --> 0:52:17.399 you know, in favor of They essentially say that if 0:52:17.440 --> 0:52:20.600 the Constitution only protects Americans who are educated enough to 0:52:20.719 --> 0:52:24.799 know their rights, then not all Americans are protected. So 0:52:25.200 --> 0:52:27.080 you know, this is, like I said, a five to 0:52:27.160 --> 0:52:31.080 four decision, and in response, police departments across the country 0:52:31.239 --> 0:52:34.600 give out those cards to their personnel with language to 0:52:34.680 --> 0:52:38.120 inform suspects of their rights. You know, the Supreme Court 0:52:38.120 --> 0:52:41.520 didn't prescribe any specific language, but this is where the 0:52:41.640 --> 0:52:43.640 little speech that the police will give you if you're 0:52:43.680 --> 0:52:49.280 under arrest. Miranda's conviction is overturned and that drives me crazy. 0:52:49.719 --> 0:52:53.360 But he goes on trial again in Arizona in nineteen 0:52:53.360 --> 0:52:56.359 sixty seven. This is only for the rape and the kidnapping, 0:52:56.760 --> 0:52:59.759 since the robbery didn't go to the Supreme Court and 0:53:00.280 --> 0:53:03.520 his original confession is not admitted as evidence. He has 0:53:03.560 --> 0:53:07.480 tried under a false name because Miranda is very famous 0:53:07.520 --> 0:53:11.239 now and his estranged girlfriend, the woman who had been 0:53:11.280 --> 0:53:14.120 living with him, testifies against him, and he has found 0:53:14.120 --> 0:53:17.240 guilty in sentenced to twenty to thirty years in prison. 0:53:17.640 --> 0:53:22.200 Eventually he applies and has denied parole four times. He 0:53:22.320 --> 0:53:26.840 is granted in nineteen seventy two parole, So he serves 0:53:26.840 --> 0:53:29.840 about nine years in prison, and he violates this parole 0:53:29.880 --> 0:53:32.440 with a lot of misdemeanors, goes back to prison for 0:53:32.440 --> 0:53:36.440 another five years. He's released in seventy five, and he 0:53:36.920 --> 0:53:40.200 is stabbed to death at a bar in nineteen seventy 0:53:40.200 --> 0:53:41.440 five after he's released. 0:53:41.719 --> 0:53:43.840 Yeah, that sounds vaguely familiar. I think I may have 0:53:43.880 --> 0:53:46.400 heard that at some point, but most certainly most of 0:53:46.440 --> 0:53:49.959 what you just told me about, you know, Miranda's back 0:53:50.000 --> 0:53:53.799 and forth with prison and parole, I did not know. 0:53:54.320 --> 0:53:56.239 Yeah, so you know, he ends up at this bar 0:53:56.360 --> 0:53:59.080 and he gets into an argument and he's stabbed in 0:53:59.120 --> 0:54:01.640 the chest in the net can. He dies within minutes, 0:54:02.200 --> 0:54:04.560 you know. I mean a little side note, They find 0:54:04.560 --> 0:54:06.400 the guy who did it. They inform them of his 0:54:06.520 --> 0:54:08.960 rights in Spanish because he doesn't speak English. So that's 0:54:08.960 --> 0:54:11.360 how evolved they became. So they inform aim of his 0:54:11.480 --> 0:54:14.719 rights in Spanish, and he waves his rights and he 0:54:14.760 --> 0:54:17.719 tells Billie, you know that he didn't do it, and 0:54:17.760 --> 0:54:20.040 they don't arrest him. So, I mean, the irony here 0:54:20.120 --> 0:54:21.880 is is he waves his rights, he denies that he 0:54:21.920 --> 0:54:26.080 did this, he had some injuries, and the police let 0:54:26.120 --> 0:54:28.760 him go. And when they go back to find him again, 0:54:28.800 --> 0:54:31.759 when employees say we can identify him, he's gone. He's 0:54:31.760 --> 0:54:32.360 in Mexico. 0:54:32.920 --> 0:54:35.600 And this is the suspect in Miranda's homicide. 0:54:35.760 --> 0:54:39.360 Yes, so he's gone where his family lives. He's in 0:54:39.400 --> 0:54:43.520 the wind. So the murder of Ernesto Miranda. You know, 0:54:43.880 --> 0:54:47.600 no one was ever arrested for the murder of Ernesto Miranda. 0:54:47.840 --> 0:54:50.960 And I mean this story. Of course, I'm familiar with 0:54:51.040 --> 0:54:54.120 miranda rights, but I did not know the backstory of it. 0:54:54.160 --> 0:54:56.759 I know this is not our traditional true crime, But 0:54:56.880 --> 0:55:00.919 like I said, I'm always interested in why cases are. 0:55:01.040 --> 0:55:03.319 You know, case law is established and you know where 0:55:03.320 --> 0:55:06.120 different things come from in our history, and this was 0:55:06.160 --> 0:55:07.040 an interesting case. 0:55:07.600 --> 0:55:11.240 Well yeah, no, for sure, it's a landmark case. It's 0:55:11.560 --> 0:55:14.000 you know, it's one of those things you know there's 0:55:14.320 --> 0:55:18.279 for law enforcement, there are select individuals, you know, just 0:55:18.480 --> 0:55:22.840 whether they're patrol guys or investigators. They love staying on 0:55:22.880 --> 0:55:25.000 top of the case law and they often I can 0:55:25.000 --> 0:55:27.279 think of one guy who is a DA investigator. He 0:55:27.320 --> 0:55:30.000 would give training to the other investigators, Hey, this is 0:55:30.040 --> 0:55:32.560 the curt this was just a Supreme Court decision, or 0:55:32.560 --> 0:55:36.560 here's a California appellate decision, because you need to know, 0:55:37.440 --> 0:55:41.080 you know what changes. You go through the police academy 0:55:41.120 --> 0:55:43.799 and you're told about Miranda, but then there's other case 0:55:43.880 --> 0:55:48.160 law that have modified Miranda, right, so you have to 0:55:48.200 --> 0:55:50.160 stay on top of that. And there are people that 0:55:50.239 --> 0:55:52.640 fortunately that do that and that of course, you know, 0:55:52.760 --> 0:55:56.320 the prosecutors, your attorneys are the ones that are really 0:55:56.360 --> 0:55:59.680 the experts. You know. So if law enforcement, if an 0:55:59.719 --> 0:56:03.759 invest stigator ever has a question about the legality of 0:56:03.840 --> 0:56:06.799 let's say a certain type of search, you know, you 0:56:06.920 --> 0:56:09.560 ring up your local prosecutor and you run the facts 0:56:09.600 --> 0:56:12.640 by them and say, hey does this work? 0:56:12.800 --> 0:56:15.640 You know before you do it and you screw something up. 0:56:15.719 --> 0:56:19.319 Absolutely, you know, And and that's where, you know, one 0:56:19.400 --> 0:56:22.640 of the reasons I enjoy the cold case side is 0:56:22.680 --> 0:56:27.000 things are slow. They're slow moving, right, they're decades old. 0:56:27.160 --> 0:56:29.360 You don't have that public pressure, right. 0:56:29.560 --> 0:56:32.400 You don't have you know. I don't think people truly 0:56:32.480 --> 0:56:35.799 appreciate whether it's a patrol officer that's responding to an 0:56:35.840 --> 0:56:39.440 active crime or an investigator investigating an after crime. How 0:56:39.480 --> 0:56:43.960 many decisions they have to make on the fly, and 0:56:44.040 --> 0:56:46.480 they have to make those decisions based on what the 0:56:46.560 --> 0:56:50.480 current case law is. It's not something that they necessarily 0:56:50.680 --> 0:56:53.520 have received a bunch of training on, you know. So 0:56:53.640 --> 0:56:57.200 this is part of the evolution as you go through 0:56:57.239 --> 0:57:01.279 your career of seeing how laws change over time. And 0:57:01.320 --> 0:57:04.319 it's not necessarily in the penal code. It's something that 0:57:04.480 --> 0:57:08.239 is now. You know, the attorney for the sheriff's office sed, hey, 0:57:08.280 --> 0:57:11.879 there's new California Supreme Court has just come out with this, 0:57:12.200 --> 0:57:13.920 and so even though you've been doing it this way 0:57:14.000 --> 0:57:16.120 up until today, tomorrow, you need it to do it 0:57:16.120 --> 0:57:18.160 this way, you know, and you have to make that 0:57:18.240 --> 0:57:21.040 adjustment or you potentially could have a case thrown out. 0:57:21.480 --> 0:57:25.480 Yeah. Well, like I said, not our normal type of story, 0:57:25.560 --> 0:57:29.280 but important and I love learning about where things come from. 0:57:29.600 --> 0:57:32.840 Next week, I can almost guarantee we're not going to 0:57:32.880 --> 0:57:36.440 be talking about Miranda rights, probably because from the eighteen 0:57:36.520 --> 0:57:41.680 hundreds and they ain't have any rights, so itus you'd 0:57:41.680 --> 0:57:46.080 be lucky to survive interrogation. But you know, we will 0:57:46.080 --> 0:57:49.480 have a case that definitely has some deep history. So 0:57:49.480 --> 0:57:50.640 I hope you look forward to it. 0:57:50.680 --> 0:57:54.480 Paul I always do and another great job today, Kate. 0:57:54.480 --> 0:57:55.320 Thank you very much. 0:57:55.480 --> 0:57:57.040 Thank you, Paul, I see you next week. 0:57:57.200 --> 0:57:58.080 Sounds good. 0:58:01.840 --> 0:58:04.320 This has been an exactly right production. 0:58:04.360 --> 0:58:07.560 For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot 0:58:07.600 --> 0:58:09.760 com slash Buried Bones sources. 0:58:09.960 --> 0:58:12.320 Our senior producer is Alexis Mrosi. 0:58:12.600 --> 0:58:16.840 Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson. 0:58:17.120 --> 0:58:19.400 Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday. 0:58:19.680 --> 0:58:21.960 Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 0:58:22.200 --> 0:58:24.240 Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 0:58:24.520 --> 0:58:28.640 Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer. 0:58:28.920 --> 0:58:32.280 You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 0:58:32.400 --> 0:58:33.560 buried Bones pod. 0:58:34.000 --> 0:58:36.560 Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded 0:58:36.560 --> 0:58:38.600 Age story of murder and the race to decode the 0:58:38.600 --> 0:58:40.680 criminal mind, is available now. 0:58:40.720 --> 0:58:45.000 And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's 0:58:45.000 --> 0:58:47.080 Cold Cases is also available now. 0:58:47.400 --> 0:58:51.120 Listen to Baried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:58:51.200 --> 0:59:04.600 or wherever you get your podcasts.