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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. We've got Easter coming up. What kind

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Speaker 1: of Easter traditions do you guys having Do you celebrate Easter?

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Speaker 2: First of all, you know, we would do when the

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Speaker 2: kids were younger, we would do the Easter basket and

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Speaker 2: hide the eggs type of thing. Even like when I

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Speaker 2: was a kid, you know, I was born and raised Catholic,

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Speaker 2: you know, so of course Easter was a big deal

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Speaker 2: and going to Mass and stuff. But now my kids

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Speaker 2: are older, I think my wife will get them some

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Speaker 2: basket with chocolates in it, and that's about it.

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Speaker 1: Oh, they don't look for Easter eggs anymore, not even

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Speaker 1: like the plastic kind of Easter eggs.

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Speaker 2: No, thank god.

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Speaker 1: Do you know that My mom would do hard boiled

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Speaker 1: eggs and I wouldye them, and then she would hide them.

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Speaker 1: But she would hide them, I feel like, the night before,

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Speaker 1: and then they were sitting out until noon or one

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Speaker 1: o'clock the next day, and then she would use them

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Speaker 1: for deviled eggs. And I think, decades later, I said,

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Speaker 1: I don't think this is a good idea. I should

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Speaker 1: boiled eggs sit out for that long? I mean, you

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Speaker 1: know better than I do. That doesn't seem like a

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Speaker 1: good idea to me.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, because one of the interesting things, you know,

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Speaker 2: I eat a lot of eggs. You know, eggs are

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Speaker 2: my staple for breakfast. But it's like here in the

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Speaker 2: United States, we refrigerate our eggs. Over in Europe they don't. Yeah, true,

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Speaker 2: you know, so if you boil them, you know, maybe

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Speaker 2: there's no reason to have to keep them refrigerated. So

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Speaker 2: maybe they're fine up to a certain point. I'm guessing

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Speaker 2: that's all it is at this point.

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Speaker 1: So my mom is kind of exonerated from having any

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Speaker 1: bad poisoning me after you say that we could maybe

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Speaker 1: like keep them outside. Issue number two with leaving the

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Speaker 1: eggs out all night is we have so many raccoons

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Speaker 1: and deer that jump our f and bugs and dirt

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Speaker 1: and snakes and everything. I still say it was bad parenting.

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Speaker 1: I love my mom, but that was not a great idea.

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Speaker 1: I feel like because she would hide an egg and

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Speaker 1: then she didn't know where the egg went, and I said,

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Speaker 1: that's because a raccoon probably took it, And now you

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Speaker 1: want me to eat it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, for sure, But man, you're harsh. Bad parenting.

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Speaker 1: Huh oh, maybe not parenting, fit boy, I do. Parenting

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Speaker 1: fails pretty much constantly. I think every day. I think

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Speaker 1: I just did about an hour and a half ago.

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Speaker 2: Actually, I think we all do.

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Speaker 1: Actually, so we hide plastic eggs and the kids, you know,

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Speaker 1: will hunt around for them and stuff, and they still

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Speaker 1: do it, and you know, we'll have sort of a

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Speaker 1: traditional Easter afternoon dinner. We're not religious at all, so

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Speaker 1: it's mostly about the bunny rabbit. My grandfather, who was

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Speaker 1: my dad's father, lived in Missouri. He was a carpenter,

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Speaker 1: and he was married to my granny for decades and

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Speaker 1: decades and decades, and they were the ones I feel

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Speaker 1: like I told you in another case, those were the

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Speaker 1: grandparents who slept in separate beds, which I found, even

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Speaker 1: at eight weird. I didn't understand it. And you know,

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Speaker 1: they had twin beds and they were on the other

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Speaker 1: side of the room, which I don't know what that means.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I would think they would be closer together,

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Speaker 1: but they had twin beds. My papa had like a

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Speaker 1: massive it was like four acres garden, all vegetables. They

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Speaker 1: had a root cellar, all this stuff in Missouri, and

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Speaker 1: he used to tell me that he was going to

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Speaker 1: sit outside with a gun and chase off the Easter Bunny.

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Speaker 2: Of course, I just thought, you're so mean.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know he was kind of a farmer type,

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Speaker 1: but I mean I get it. You know, nobody wants

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Speaker 1: their garden invaded, but the Easter bunny really Papa.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, at least he wasn't out on the porch

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Speaker 2: with a shotgun when Santa Claus was going to come. Now,

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Speaker 2: we would have potentially a homicide.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and absolutely, well, I mean, you know that strange

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Speaker 1: man creeping along your roof. Yes, he probably hadn't thought

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Speaker 1: about that. He just wanted to scare me a little bit,

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Speaker 1: I think, And I just thought, it's a bunny rabbit.

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Speaker 1: Let him have the lettuce. I mean, you know, I

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Speaker 1: know he chased off animals. So I had an interesting family.

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Speaker 2: Sounds like it.

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Speaker 1: Well, I am taking you to nineteen sixty three Arizona,

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Speaker 1: and this is a case that, on the surface seems

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Speaker 1: I think fairly simple, but it was a landmark case.

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Speaker 1: And you'll find out why. I try to find stories where,

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Speaker 1: you know, we can say this is the reason why

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Speaker 1: we have X, Y and Z. Remember the story about

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Speaker 1: the man who was accused of sexual assault sneaking into

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Speaker 1: somebody's house and he left his fingerprints in fresh paint,

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Speaker 1: and that became the landmark case the first time that

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Speaker 1: fingerprinting was introduced in court. So this is sort of

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Speaker 1: that kind of case. So as we go along, you know,

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Speaker 1: this case changes quite a bit to reflect why it's

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Speaker 1: important today.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, so relatively speaking, it's a more recent case.

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Speaker 1: It's like brand new, it's like yesterday for us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, for sure, it's just what five years before

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Speaker 2: I was born.

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Speaker 1: So you keep dating yourself. I like a guy who

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Speaker 1: does that though. I mean, you know, you're proud of

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Speaker 1: your age, and I'll lend me too.

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Speaker 2: It's better than the alternative, right, And you know.

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Speaker 1: What, my mom says that. Now, I'm going to really

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Speaker 1: give my mom some props. My mom says that every time,

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Speaker 1: you know, she says, well, I have friends who don't

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Speaker 1: want to disclose their age, and I'm proud of it

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Speaker 1: because you know, a lot of people don't make it

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Speaker 1: to you know, my mom's age was about eighty. She's

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Speaker 1: going to be eighty two this year, so I would

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Speaker 1: be bragging about that too. Yeah, I'll brag about fifty fifty.

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Speaker 1: I'm happy to have made it this far.

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Speaker 2: I've got you beat you, do I know? I know? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's go ahead and set the scene for the story.

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Speaker 1: We are, as I said before, in nineteen sixty three, Arizona.

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Speaker 1: This is going to be a landmark case. A warning.

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Speaker 1: There is a lot involving a sexual assault. You all

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Speaker 1: know that we try to handle this with a lot

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Speaker 1: of sensitivity, and Paul does a great job talking about this.

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Speaker 1: So I just want to give you a warning straight

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Speaker 1: off the top. So here is the crime. We're going

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Speaker 1: to jump right into it before midnight, shortly before midnight,

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Speaker 1: March second, nineteen sixty three. We are in Phoenix. An

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Speaker 1: eighteen year old woman is heading home from her job

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Speaker 1: at the concession counter at a local movie theater. She

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Speaker 1: takes a city bus to a stop that's about three

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Speaker 1: blocks away from her home, where she lives with her

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Speaker 1: mother and her sister and her sister's husband. The time

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Speaker 1: when this happened is a little murky because the woman

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Speaker 1: says this happened before midnight on March second, but the

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Speaker 1: police filed the report on March third, so it gets

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Speaker 1: a little confusing. But we're gonna go with March second.

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Speaker 1: She will be the victim of a sexual assault, and

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Speaker 1: I am not going to identify her because it's nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty three and I would hope she's still around, so

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Speaker 1: we're going to leave out her name. But I don't

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Speaker 1: think it's difficult to find. In the nineteen sixties. Phoenix

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Speaker 1: is in the middle of it's a huge building boom,

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Speaker 1: and she lives in a development that's still under construction,

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Speaker 1: so the sidewalks are dark, they don't seem to have

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Speaker 1: street lights. She's coming home very late by herself. She

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Speaker 1: can hear a car pulling up behind her. She kind

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Speaker 1: of ignores it and keeps walking. The driver gets out

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Speaker 1: of the car and he runs up behind her and

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Speaker 1: grabs her by the waist. She says that he presses

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Speaker 1: something sharp up against the back of her neck. He says,

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Speaker 1: if you don't scream, I won't hurt you, and she

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Speaker 1: goes with him and he puts her in the car's

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Speaker 1: back seat. And before I kind of get to what happens,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask a question because I feel like

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Speaker 1: I don't know what the current guidance is. If you

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Speaker 1: are approached by a stranger and he says get into

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Speaker 1: the car and he does have a weapon or doesn't

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Speaker 1: have a weapon. I feel like growing up I heard comply,

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Speaker 1: that's how you stay alive, because otherwise she you right there,

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Speaker 1: or he'll force you in and it'll be a really

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Speaker 1: bad situation, even worse situation. But I feel also like

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Speaker 1: I've heard quite a bit about no matter what you do,

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Speaker 1: and I think this is what they teach in schools

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Speaker 1: to kids. No matter what you do, don't get in

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Speaker 1: a car with somebody, fight, scream whatever it is, even

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Speaker 1: if they have a gun pointed out, you don't do it.

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Speaker 1: So what's your understanding of what the guidance would be

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Speaker 1: from safety experts with this, Well.

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Speaker 2: It's not my understanding. I will tell you from my

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Speaker 2: casework experience, you never ever let yourself be taken to

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Speaker 2: a secondary location. I don't care if they've got a gun,

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Speaker 2: I don't care if they've got a knife. What they're

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Speaker 2: going to do to you at that secondary location is

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Speaker 2: going to be far worse and being shot or stabbed

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Speaker 2: or killed at that contact spot. With my other podcast,

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Speaker 2: small Town Dicks with Yardley, Dan and Dave, Dan, Dave

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Speaker 2: and I are coming out law enforcement. We all tell

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Speaker 2: our listeners don't go to a secondary location. Don't let

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Speaker 2: let yourself get bound. You know, if you are having

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Speaker 2: somebody who is trying to force you into a vehicle,

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Speaker 2: you fight, you kick, you go dead weight, You make

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Speaker 2: it as hard as possible, and you want to draw

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Speaker 2: as much attention as possible so somebody else can either

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Speaker 2: come to your aid or at least get law enforcement rolling.

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Speaker 2: And oftentimes the offender is not expecting that. He's thinking

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Speaker 2: you're going to comply with the gun or the knife,

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Speaker 2: and now all of a sudden. He's got a fight

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Speaker 2: on his hands. He's got a lot of noise being made.

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Speaker 2: There's a good chance at that offender will run off

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Speaker 2: some won't you know. But that is you know, straight up,

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Speaker 2: because I've just seen what happens to victims when they

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Speaker 2: go to a secondary location.

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Speaker 1: Well, luckily this woman survives, but her ordeal is awful.

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Speaker 1: He has something sharp up against the back of her neck.

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Speaker 1: He says, if you don't scream, I won't hurt you.

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Speaker 1: He puts her in the back seat of his car,

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Speaker 1: binds her ankles together with rope. He also ties her

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Speaker 1: hands behind her back. He drives about twenty minutes into

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Speaker 1: the desert, remember in Arizona, and he rapes her and

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Speaker 1: then he says something odd. He says, pray for me,

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Speaker 1: and drops her back off in her neighborhood. You know.

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Speaker 1: She of course goes home, tells her family what happened.

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Speaker 1: They call the police, doing all the right things. When

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Speaker 1: the investigators come, she can give a description of the car,

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Speaker 1: but not the make and model, and she says that

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Speaker 1: the car was either gray or a light green sedan

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Speaker 1: with a dark upholstered interior that has stripes, which is

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Speaker 1: great that she sounds so specific there, but she can't

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Speaker 1: give a description of the offender. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: it's because of trauma or he's masked, but you know,

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Speaker 1: this is what ends up happening. So what do you

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Speaker 1: think so far based on all of this.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's plenty of examples where these sexually motivated offenders

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Speaker 2: abduct their victims, sexually assault them, and then take them back,

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Speaker 2: either to the abduction location or to some other location

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Speaker 2: and drop them off. At least within this offender's mind

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Speaker 2: right now, he doesn't have the homicidal ideations, at least

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Speaker 2: not yet. If he is unmasked and is letting this

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Speaker 2: victim go, you know, that's that's interesting because he's not

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Speaker 2: taking you know, in nineteen sixty three, most certainly would

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Speaker 2: be aware that this victim is going to be talking

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Speaker 2: to law enforcement and likely would be able to provide

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Speaker 2: a pretty accurate description of him. So it kind of

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Speaker 2: tells me a little bit about this offender that he's

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Speaker 2: not being as as careful as he should if he

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Speaker 2: wants to continue to get away, either get away with

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Speaker 2: this particular crime or to continue to offend. You know,

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Speaker 2: because this type of offender, you know, abducting strangers and

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Speaker 2: sexually assaulting them. That general is considered a predatory type crime,

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Speaker 2: and they do that over and over and over again.

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Speaker 2: In some ways, he's kind of almost rolling the dice

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Speaker 2: and willingly so to where maybe, you know, especially with

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Speaker 2: the statement pray for me, you know, he knows that

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Speaker 2: he has a fantasy life that society does not agree with,

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Speaker 2: that he's committing a crime. He wants to be caught,

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Speaker 2: but he's not willing to give himself up.

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Speaker 1: Okay, what happens next disturbs me, of course, you know,

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Speaker 1: anything involving is a sexual assault disturbs me. But what

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Speaker 1: the police do next I had not heard, and maybe

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Speaker 1: you have. The survivor goes to the station to be

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Speaker 1: interviewed and they make her take a polygraph test. Have

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Speaker 1: you heard that before?

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Speaker 2: I hate to say it, but this is this is

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Speaker 2: an era in which law enforcement did a lot of

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Speaker 2: victim blaming. I saw it over and over again from

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Speaker 2: cases out of the nineteen six nineteen seventies, and here,

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Speaker 2: right off the bat, they are telling this victim, well,

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Speaker 2: you got to prove yourself that you're telling the truth. Right.

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Speaker 2: It very much was this misogynistic type of mentality that

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Speaker 2: law enforcement had back in the day. And remember nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixty three, law enforcement's all male, very few females are working.

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Speaker 2: There almost was a you know, mindset, well, you shouldn't

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Speaker 2: have dressed that way, and that is what's happening to

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Speaker 2: this victim here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, first of all, let's go back and talk about

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Speaker 1: polygraph tests in general, which we know are unreliable from

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Speaker 1: American sherlock. You know, I can't remember what year it was,

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Speaker 1: but it was like nineteen twenty five. I think that

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Speaker 1: in that time period where even the Supreme Court said

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Speaker 1: these should not be admitted in court. You know, this

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Speaker 1: is not reliable enough because so much can change your

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Speaker 1: heart rate, your pulse, everything can change based on medication,

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Speaker 1: how you're feeling that. I mean, you know, a host

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Speaker 1: of things that can't be attributed to lying. I think

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Speaker 1: you and I have talked about that. It's an effective

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Speaker 1: interrogation technique, but certainly not something that can point definitively

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Speaker 1: to someone's guilt.

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Speaker 2: It's a tool, Yeah, that's all it is, you know,

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Speaker 2: and you know, poligraphers will you know, pretty much defend

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Speaker 2: their results, but also they recognize the variables that can

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Speaker 2: skew the results. Oftentimes what we get an investigation from

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Speaker 2: a polygraph because the person that's being hooked up to

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Speaker 2: the instrument, they now are in a position to where,

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Speaker 2: oh shit, they're going to know if I'm lying. And

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Speaker 2: so sometimes certain individuals will now tell the truth. Other

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Speaker 2: individuals will just straight up continue to lie. But it

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Speaker 2: locks them into statements, and some of the most valuable

285
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Speaker 2: investigative statements come out of the polygraph interview. You get

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Speaker 2: questioned while you're hooked up to the instrument. Polygrapher goes off,

287
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Speaker 2: he comes back, he's got instrument readouts, and he says, okay, Paul,

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Speaker 2: you answered these questions right, but I have concern about

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Speaker 2: this question. The next thing, you know, somebody is just like, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, trying to make something up in order to

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Speaker 2: say why the instrument is thrown off. And then a

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Speaker 2: discussion follows, and next thing you know, they're making admissions,

293
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Speaker 2: which now the homicide investigators or sexual assault investigators go, okay,

294
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Speaker 2: we got the right guy. Now we need to do

295
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Speaker 2: we need to do some follow up. It's a tool,

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Speaker 2: you know, There's no way you can you know, affect

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Speaker 2: an arrest based off of failing a polygraph.

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Speaker 1: Well it is inconclusive. And in two thousand and five,

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Speaker 1: I thought this was interesting. In two thousand and five, right,

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Speaker 1: so twenty years ago, the Violence Against Women Act withdrew

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Speaker 1: some federal funding from states that still required rape survivors

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Speaker 1: to take polygraph tests. So this is what's stunning to me.

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Speaker 1: As it stands, at least twenty five states have since

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Speaker 1: banned this practice. This leaves the other states who still

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Speaker 1: do it, And that's incredible to me. I just had

306
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Speaker 1: never heard that before, so that it's good to know,

307
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Speaker 1: you know, that this is something that gives me a

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Speaker 1: lot of context, that this is something you know that

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Speaker 1: happened in the past.

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Speaker 2: You know. And I do just want to say, you know, obviously,

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Speaker 2: when you have a victim come in, you have to

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Speaker 2: listen to that victim and take what they are saying

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Speaker 2: as being fact. Right, this is what they experienced. However,

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Speaker 2: we do have victims lie. They make up things, you know,

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Speaker 2: and so as you investigate, if you do find out

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Speaker 2: this victim is likely lying, then of course you have

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Speaker 2: to figure out, well, what is going on here, but

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Speaker 2: to treat like in this case, this victim straight off

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Speaker 2: the bat to hook somebody up to a polygraph before

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Speaker 2: even hearing what happened and starting the investigation is just

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Speaker 2: straight up wrong, right, And she's.

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Speaker 1: Not accusing anybody yet. I mean, it's not like there's

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Speaker 1: some wealthy, you know, young man whose life is on

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Speaker 1: the line because this woman is accusing him of something.

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Speaker 1: There isn't even an investigation yet. This is her, you know,

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Speaker 1: a contention, So okay, let's move on. So there was

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Speaker 1: a detailed interior description of the car, but not the exterior.

328
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Speaker 1: But the description of the car matches descriptions that have

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Speaker 1: been given to the police in reports of other assaults.

330
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Speaker 1: She says it was a gray or a light green

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Speaker 1: sedan with dark upholstered interior that had stripes. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that still seems kind of vague, But people who have

333
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Speaker 1: been survivors of other similar attacks are coming back with

334
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Speaker 1: the same description of the car. So does that seem

335
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Speaker 1: reliable to you? I mean, police are going to really

336
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Speaker 1: lean into this too well.

337
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Speaker 2: I think in terms of, you know, is it reliable

338
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Speaker 2: necessarily to be able to link these crimes together conclusively? No,

339
00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,520
Speaker 2: you know, what is the prevalence of this style interior

340
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Speaker 2: at this point in time? But in terms of this

341
00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,639
Speaker 2: is a detail of if these if these crimes are

342
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,320
Speaker 2: similar enough to where these all these victims are saying

343
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Speaker 2: I was inside the offender's vehicle and this is what

344
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Speaker 2: the interior of the vehicle look like, then it is

345
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,200
Speaker 2: a characteristic where you have to consider this may be

346
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,520
Speaker 2: the same offender. Now if you have other behaviors, how

347
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,320
Speaker 2: these women are abducted, you know, how he is sexually

348
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,720
Speaker 2: assaulting them, what his appearance is like, and all these

349
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Speaker 2: seem to be within sort of a you'd say it's

350
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Speaker 2: a bracket, you know, in terms of each characteristic falls

351
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Speaker 2: within a bracket where it doesn't deviate too much from

352
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,360
Speaker 2: each other. Then you go, okay, there's a good likelihood

353
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Speaker 2: that we have a serial rapist on the loose here.

354
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Speaker 1: So the police cannot find this car. And about a

355
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Speaker 1: week later after this woman's attack, this woman's brother in

356
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Speaker 1: law has been escorting her to and from the bus

357
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Speaker 1: ever since the rape happened. At some point, he spots

358
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Speaker 1: a car that matches his sister in law's description. The

359
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,600
Speaker 1: car leaves before the woman's bus arrives, but comes back.

360
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,440
Speaker 1: Once the woman and the brother in law are there together,

361
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Speaker 1: she confirms that it looks like the right car, and

362
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,040
Speaker 1: he runs after it, but the car speeds away once

363
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,400
Speaker 1: he sees somebody as chasing him, and the brother in law,

364
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,000
Speaker 1: thank goodness, jots down a partial plate number. This car

365
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,119
Speaker 1: turns out to be a nineteen fifty three Packard and

366
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Speaker 1: it's registered to a woman. But she lives with a

367
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Speaker 1: man who is twenty three and his name is Arnisto.

368
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Speaker 1: I can tell you about Arnisto. I can talk about

369
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Speaker 1: what ends up happening when police locate him. And remember

370
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Speaker 1: this is a very significant case and you're going to

371
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Speaker 1: find out in just a bit.

372
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Speaker 2: Well, I think, you know. I think the first comment

373
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Speaker 2: is is that you know, the victim being able to say, hey,

374
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Speaker 2: that looks like the car. It's basically okay, this looks

375
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,440
Speaker 2: like the make and model car that the offender used

376
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,879
Speaker 2: that she was put into. And I'm assuming that they

377
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 2: must have been close enough to the vehicle possibly to

378
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,920
Speaker 2: be able to see, oh, it's got the striped upholstery

379
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:10,200
Speaker 2: on the inside. So she's not saying that guy looks

380
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,639
Speaker 2: like the guy that's actually assaulted me. She's saying, that

381
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 2: looks like the car. Okay, So it's most certainly something

382
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,120
Speaker 2: where it's okay, that's good. Now we have an understanding

383
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 2: of the making model that the offender was using, potentially

384
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,479
Speaker 2: and a nineteen fifty three packard you know, I'm I

385
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 2: know of the packard vehicles. I don't think they were

386
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 2: exceptionally common, but that would be something that I would

387
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,199
Speaker 2: be kind of wanting to know as an investigator. Is okay,

388
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 2: So is this just a you know, we have a

389
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 2: ton of these, you know, driving around the city, or

390
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 2: is this something that is relatively rare that I don't know,

391
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,440
Speaker 2: but I would want I would be wanting to dig

392
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 2: into that before I put a lot of weight on.

393
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,919
Speaker 2: You know, the person that has access to this vehicle

394
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:58,359
Speaker 2: is possibly her attacker. So that's probably the first observation

395
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,440
Speaker 2: that I have. And then you know, the registered owner

396
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 2: being a woman, Well, we know a woman isn't the

397
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 2: one that is attacking the victim. But we have a

398
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,639
Speaker 2: twenty three year old male, you know, our nesto. So, now,

399
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,560
Speaker 2: based off of what the victim could recount about her offender,

400
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,439
Speaker 2: does this our nesto seem to match? I know you

401
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 2: said that she could not remember much about the physical

402
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 2: characteristics of this offender.

403
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, not at all. I mean she did at the

404
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 1: time that she couldn't recall anything specific, but for.

405
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 2: Law enforcements, there seems to be other cases that are

406
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:38,120
Speaker 2: matching this victim's case in terms of the vehicle. So

407
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,080
Speaker 2: what are these other victims saying about the you know,

408
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,959
Speaker 2: the physical characteristics of their offender, and does our Nesto

409
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,439
Speaker 2: match that. That's kind of what I would be looking

410
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 2: at if I'm considering these cases as being related.

411
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 1: I'll tell you because I do have descriptions of what

412
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 1: happens in these other cases too, and we can kind

413
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 1: of see that. On March thirteenth, nineteen sixty three, the

414
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 1: police come to his house where he lives, or Nesta's house,

415
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,159
Speaker 1: and ask him to come down for questioning. According to

416
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,880
Speaker 1: the police, or Nesto is friendly and helpful, unbothered, and

417
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: he talks freely with the police. This seems unusual to me,

418
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 1: and I don't know if he is the person. I

419
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 1: don't know if this is someone who thinks he can

420
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 1: out smart the police and you know, just sort of

421
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 1: kind of skate through this, but you know he is

422
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,679
Speaker 1: he is someone who does not seem alarmed by the

423
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,679
Speaker 1: fact that he's being brought in for questioning. For it

424
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 1: sounds like at least one sexual assault, and I'm assuming

425
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:32,879
Speaker 1: they're going to try to tie him to the others.

426
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 2: Sure, but there are plenty of people that respond that way. Okay,

427
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 2: you really can't draw conclusions. You're just noting that he

428
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 2: seems cooperative. You know, he does not seem nervous, so

429
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 2: you know, maybe he doesn't have anything to do with this.

430
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 2: But then there are offenders that when they've been pulled in,

431
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:51,400
Speaker 2: that's the way they are.

432
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 1: Well, before I get to the interrogation, let me just

433
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 1: tell you a little bit about him. He was born

434
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,440
Speaker 1: in Arizona to a very poverty stricken family. His mother

435
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: died when he was young, and he had a lot

436
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: of brushes with the law when he was a kid.

437
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: He was sent to a reform school when he was

438
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: a teenager. He had some prior rest in California, though

439
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 1: he wasn't convicted. It doesn't sound like anything violent. He

440
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: lived sort of an itinerant lifestyle in his late teens

441
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,880
Speaker 1: and early twenties, which means he hopped around from place

442
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: to place and job to job, so he didn't have

443
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,879
Speaker 1: roots anywhere. He was convicted in Tennacy for driving a

444
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 1: stolen car. When he is being questioned for this sexual

445
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 1: assault by the Phoenix Police. He's working nights on a

446
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 1: loading dock for a produce company and that's what we

447
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 1: know about Ernesto. So, you know, the brushes with the law.

448
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: We've talked about that before, that certain rushes with the

449
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: law are alarming to you, at least when we talk

450
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,239
Speaker 1: about psychopathy and the potential for violence of somebody later on.

451
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: But these things, you know, he's twenty three, stolen car,

452
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 1: nothing violent. Is this anything that would alarm you as

453
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 1: an investigator when you're looking at this case, because right now,

454
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,679
Speaker 1: all it is is he's got a car that people

455
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 1: are saying might have been involved in, you know, the

456
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 1: offender being a rapist.

457
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 2: No, you know, all of it seems to be minor.

458
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 2: You know, many people have this level of criminality, you know,

459
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 2: so it doesn't mean doesn't point to anything that would

460
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,360
Speaker 2: indicate that, you know, he potentially is a serial rapist

461
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 2: or a capable of sexual assault. If he has priors

462
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,199
Speaker 2: as as I think I've talked about before, If he

463
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 2: has prior sexual assault, particularly sexual assaults on strangers, you know,

464
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 2: predatory type crime, then that is more of a red

465
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 2: flag in terms of his past criminality indicating Okay, he's

466
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 2: capable of this type of crime. And we know these

467
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 2: types of fenders have a tendency to be recidivous, they

468
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 2: have a tendency to continue committing these types of crimes.

469
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: Okay, now I'm going to have questions about police conduct

470
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 1: just in general, when you're interrogating somebody, whether this is

471
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: sort of commonplace or not. Here's point number one, and

472
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,719
Speaker 1: you tell me what you think. They take er Nesto

473
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: to a very small interrogation room. You know, they want

474
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 1: to try to figure out if he's even the right guy,

475
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 1: because he does not seem bothered at all that he's there.

476
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 1: So it's described this interrogation room is described more like

477
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,439
Speaker 1: a cubicle twelve feet squared cubicle, and they refer to

478
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 1: it as the sweat room. Are you allowed water? Can

479
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 1: you go to the bathroom? Is that one call? Still?

480
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 1: One phone call? Still a thing?

481
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 2: You know? There's when when somebody's brought in to be interviewed,

482
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:40,360
Speaker 2: there is a level of expected treatment. You know, you're

483
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 2: not bringing somebody in to you know, put them in

484
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 2: essentially a jail cell. Typically, yes, he had a part

485
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 2: of a proper interview is where you're ensuring that the

486
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 2: subject is reasonably comfortable. Today, law enforcement needs to be

487
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 2: mindful of the suspects perception. Now under this circumstance, at

488
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 2: this point in time, I don't think you said he

489
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 2: was arrested. He was asked to come down to the station.

490
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 2: He is voluntarily there in this day and age, under

491
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 2: this set of circumstances. You know, at any point, he

492
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: can decide to get up and leave, and he has

493
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 2: to have that perception of the capability to get up

494
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 2: and leave when he is there voluntarily.

495
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 1: So Smarty, tell me what Ernesto's last name is, Miranda. Yep,

496
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: this is the Miranda Rights case, nineteen sixty three. Yes,

497
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: I can't believe it took till nineteen sixty three to

498
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 1: sort all this out. But it's an interesting case.

499
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 2: No, for sure, you know, but this there is a reason,

500
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 2: because of this case, why people that are in a

501
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 2: custodial situation, whether they've been told that they are in custody,

502
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 2: or they perceive that they are in custody, that they

503
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 2: need to be told their rights. And it's because of

504
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 2: this case.

505
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: Well, now we're going to find out why. So he

506
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 1: is questioned for two hours and he denies the rape

507
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: and several other crimes that police are trying to pin

508
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: him on basically just based on the description of his car,

509
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: which does not seem like a wild description, but I

510
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,360
Speaker 1: guess it is. So they're trying to pin him on

511
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: a bunch of different things. So police put him in

512
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: a lineup. Now we need to talk about lineups. Police

513
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: put him in a lineup, and the young woman eighteen

514
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: year old who was raped, as well as another woman

515
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: identify him out of four men, but they say they're

516
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: not positive. I mean, my notes say that the young

517
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: woman really couldn't give him a description, so I don't

518
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: know what would have changed. And then talk about how

519
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: lineups work. Are they the same as in the sixties, we'll.

520
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 2: See well, and this is where whether you're dealing with

521
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 2: a photo lineup or you're doing this in person type

522
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 2: of lineup is Nowadays there are criteria that these lineups

523
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 2: have to meet in order for them to be to

524
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 2: have any level of veracity. In terms of if the victim,

525
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 2: like in this case, is able to pick somebody out

526
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 2: of the lineup. There isn't anything that would have swayed

527
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 2: the victim to point at the person that law enforcement

528
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 2: is considering the suspect. But let's say Ernesto is you know,

529
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 2: I don't know his size. Let's say he's five six,

530
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty pounds, clean shaven, and the other

531
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 2: three men in this lineup are all above six foot

532
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 2: and they have facial hair. You know, it's that type

533
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 2: of thing. And those were some of the things that

534
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 2: was happening, you know, back in the day, in order

535
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 2: to get that witness or that victim to point at

536
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 2: the person that law enforcement has kind of keyed in on,

537
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 2: in order for law enforcement to write up a report

538
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,959
Speaker 2: saying suspect was picked out of a photo lineup, and

539
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 2: now they're putting that in a probable cause affidavit for

540
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:15,479
Speaker 2: arrest for that crime.

541
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the other case. There was another

542
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: woman who identified him in this lineup, but said, you know,

543
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: I'm not one hundred percent sure. The circumstances from her

544
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: case were that she was grabbed at knife point while

545
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: she was going to her car at night from her

546
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: job as a bank teller. He put her in the

547
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: front bench of her own car, drove a short distance,

548
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: and she was assaulted but not raped, and robbed of

549
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 1: eight dollars. This seems different.

550
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 2: It is tough when you have disparate crimes like this.

551
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 2: Now you have an abduction of females. In both instances,

552
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 2: you have these females being kidnapped, they're being moved to

553
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 2: a different location. Okay, there's similarities there, just because one

554
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 2: case doesn't end in sexual assault and it turns out

555
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 2: to be essentially a robbery of eight dollars. You know,

556
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 2: eight dollars is taken by force or fear by this offender.

557
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: Serial rapists will also commit this type of crime and

558
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 2: not sexually assault somebody, So you can't eliminate them as

559
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 2: not being related. But I think to your point, yes,

560
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 2: you can't necessarily say they are related because there isn't

561
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: enough circumstances, behaviors, et cetera that are unique enough to say, yes,

562
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 2: this appears to be the same individual, the same offender.

563
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 2: It's just something you have to consider. You know, offenders

564
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: commit multiple types of crimes, so that's just what happens.

565
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 2: And you know, you take a look at Ernesto's criminal pass,

566
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 2: this robbery of eight dollars seems to be more in

567
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 2: line with the types of petty crimes that he's committing

568
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 2: even though the kidnapp is serious. That's that's a massive,

569
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 2: major felony that's going on there. But to take the

570
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 2: eight dollars seems inline, like with maybe some of these

571
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 2: petty theft arrests that he possibly had in his criminal past.

572
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. So remember it was a lineup of Ernesto and

573
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: three other men, and they said it looks like him,

574
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: but we're not one hundred percent sure. That's not what

575
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: the police tell Ernesto and they say that he has

576
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: been positively identified by these two women, and he immediately confesses.

577
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: Now two hours of interrogation. We don't know what that

578
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: involved in. I don't know if about Phoenix, Arizona in

579
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: the sixties, if this was the third degree or what happened.

580
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: But he didn't break until these two women positively identified him.

581
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: I know police can lie, right, I mean how much

582
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: can they lie? When you're interrogating somebody, you're trying to

583
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: trap them.

584
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 2: You can lie to the person you're talking to, you know,

585
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 2: with the expectation that if the person's innocent, they will

586
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: stand their ground and in essence tell the interviewer you're wrong.

587
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 2: You know that wasn't me. I did not you know,

588
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 2: attack those women or whatever. But we do see with

589
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 2: select types of suspects that will cave in to an

590
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: interrogation when they are told lies. You know, So it

591
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 2: is a balance. You know that. This is where you

592
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 2: have you have an offender, Hey, we've got your DNA.

593
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 2: In this case, in this sexual assault, the innocent person

594
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 2: is expected to say, I don't know how that got there. Now,

595
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 2: guilty guys say the same thing, right, but you expect

596
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 2: that person, the innocent person, to stand their ground. But

597
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 2: then you have to evaluate the individual you're talking to.

598
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 2: And we know individuals that are intellectually challenged, that have

599
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: certain personalities, that are of a certain age, et cetera,

600
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 2: are more susceptible to caving in, either to being under

601
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 2: the influence of the interrogator or to caving into the circumstances.

602
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 2: If I just tell them what they want to hear,

603
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 2: maybe I'll be let go.

604
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: I've heard circumstances where people say they were interrogated for

605
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: so long, almost days, where they start questioning whether they

606
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: were involved or not. I don't remember the stat from

607
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,760
Speaker 1: the Innocence Project, but it's something like twenty five percent.

608
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: I think wrongful convictions come from false confessions.

609
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 2: No, for sure, you know. And it's interesting in California

610
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 2: so that the read interview technique, which has been taught

611
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 2: forever and it originated out of the Chicago area, has

612
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 2: been shown to generate false confessions. And so in California,

613
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 2: I know there's one DA. I think it's Elderiddle County DA.

614
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 2: I was listening to him at a conference talk about

615
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 2: how he was championing banning the use of this read

616
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 2: interrogation technique in California, and I think he was successful.

617
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 2: I'm not entirely sure I know where that's at, in

618
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 2: part because it does cause susceptible individuals to falsely confess

619
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 2: to something they didn't do. You know. It's just way

620
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: that these individuals are manipulated, you know. So it's a balance,

621
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 2: you know, you want to get the truth out of

622
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 2: the person, and we know people will lie to protect

623
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 2: themselves from the crimes that they've committed. So you have

624
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,760
Speaker 2: to somehow figure out a way in order to get

625
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 2: those facts out or at least get them to make

626
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 2: statements that are incriminating that a prosecutor can use. But

627
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 2: at what point do you draw the line in terms

628
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 2: of what you're willing to do in order to get

629
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 2: those statements out of that particular suspect.

630
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 1: Well, this prosecutor you were talking about, can you draw

631
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: briefly a contrast between the read interrogation technique and what

632
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 1: should be done if you have somebody who's intellectually challenged.

633
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: I mean, what's the different, what's the right and the wrong?

634
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: What does the read technique do that's so manipulative that

635
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 1: gets these wrongful.

636
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 2: Convictions fundamentally sort of like what you're hearing here in

637
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 2: the Miranda case in terms of you know, very confrontation,

638
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 2: making up these these lies, you know, really trying to

639
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 2: persuade the individual down a certain tract. You know, back

640
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 2: in the day before this case, law enforcement was really

641
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 2: heavy handed in terms of how they would interrogate individuals.

642
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 2: She's talk about, you know, being you know, kept awake

643
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 2: for long hours while you are being questioned over and

644
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 2: over again. And part of the questioning with this tactic

645
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 2: is just re asking the questions over and over again

646
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 2: over the course of many hours to where now the

647
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: person's getting frustrated and so now they're going to go, well,

648
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 2: my cooperation up to this point isn't working, So now

649
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 2: I'm going to give them what they want, you know,

650
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 2: and now they've just confessed to a crime. And then

651
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,720
Speaker 2: what I've seen, in fact, I consulted on an innocence

652
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 2: project case and I won't go into the details, but

653
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 2: fundamentally what law enforcement was doing back in the day,

654
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 2: and this was not back in nineteen sixty three. This

655
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 2: is back in the nineteen nineties. But this particular agency,

656
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 2: with this particular couple of interviewers, what they do is

657
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 2: they in essence, tell the suspect the details and make

658
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 2: the suspect tell those details about the crime back. And

659
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 2: then the investigator is the one that's typing up this

660
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 2: is what the suspect said, and there's no recording, and

661
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 2: then they make the suspect sign that you told us this, right, yes,

662
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 2: I told you that, and that suspect just now has

663
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 2: confessed to a crime, and it is so inappropriate.

664
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: Well, what's hard about this case of Ernesto Miranda is

665
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: he is guilty. He's about to give a full confession.

666
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: Not only that he's going to identify the woman that

667
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: he attacked, but you know the way that the police

668
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: handle it and what they have him sign. We have

669
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: to get a little technical here. That's why this case

670
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,800
Speaker 1: was so important. So he signs a form. He says

671
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: in the forum, he's twenty three. His highest level of

672
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: education is eighth grade. And this is his written statement.

673
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 1: He said, seeing a girl walking up the street, stopped

674
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,359
Speaker 1: a little head of her, got out of the car,

675
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,399
Speaker 1: walked toward her, grabbed her by the arm and asked

676
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: her to get in car. Got in car without force,

677
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: tight her hands at ankles, drove away for a few miles, stopped,

678
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: asked to take clothes off, did not asked me to

679
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 1: take her home. I started to take clothes off without

680
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: any force, and with cooperation, asked her to lay down,

681
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: and she did. Could not get penis into vagina, got

682
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: about half an inch in, told her to get closed

683
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: back on, drove her home, and I couldn't say I

684
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,760
Speaker 1: was sorry for what I had done, but I asked

685
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,720
Speaker 1: for her to pray for me. So that's what he said,

686
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: and on the form he wrote this statement. On it

687
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: said with full knowledge of my rights, even though he

688
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 1: was never informed of any rights. And that's where this

689
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 1: case is. So what do you think about that? First

690
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 1: his confession? What do you think about the confession? Did

691
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: he write the well here's the thing, Paul, I mean,

692
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 1: we have a verbatim. There's no punctuation, almost no punctuation

693
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: in here, you know, And I don't know if he

694
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,439
Speaker 1: actually wrote it, wrote it in eighth grade. You would

695
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 1: think he would be able to, but it's I don't know.

696
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:14,720
Speaker 1: You're right, it's hard to tell.

697
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 2: Well, well, this is sort of like that Innocence project.

698
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 2: Is you know, what had he been told about the crime?

699
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 2: When I'm assessing statements, and I do this all the

700
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,399
Speaker 2: time in cold cases, is I'm assessing, okay, what what

701
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 2: did law enforcement know? How did they know it? Is

702
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 2: this something that during the interviews law enforcement, during their

703
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 2: interrogator phase, they're now confronting him with facts and you

704
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 2: know this fact you tried to raper but you only

705
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 2: could get in so far. Well, now he's fed that detail.

706
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 2: At what point during the interview is the the person

707
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:57,359
Speaker 2: being interviewed bringing up this level of detail. And I know,

708
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 2: when I evaluate a case, I'm off and taking a

709
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 2: look at the crime scene and the physical evidence and

710
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 2: interpreting that. And many investigators don't know how to interpret,

711
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 2: you know, do like a crime scene reconstruction, so they

712
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 2: never bring those types of details up to the suspect

713
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 2: that they're talking to. But when I see a suspect

714
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,879
Speaker 2: say something during that interview that matches up with what

715
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,439
Speaker 2: I am seeing in the physical evidence, I'm going, oh,

716
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 2: he literally knows something that even the investigators don't know.

717
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:32,280
Speaker 2: Now I'm putting a ton of veracity on that type

718
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 2: of detail. So, you know, statement analysis in terms of

719
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 2: assessing you know, like what Arnesto is saying, you know,

720
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 2: that's where Okay, who's writing this? At what stage is

721
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 2: he writing? This? Is towards the end of the interrogation?

722
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 2: Was this recorded? Was this? Were these details that he

723
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 2: was fed by the detectives during an interrogation, and now

724
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 2: he's just regurgitating them because he just wants to be done.

725
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 2: Remember what I said. You know, they're selecting individuals in

726
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 2: our society that are more susceptible to these types of

727
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 2: interrogative tactics and will falsely confess. One of those is

728
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 2: going to be that kind of that limited intellectual aspect.

729
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 2: Ernesto has an eighth grade education and he's twenty three

730
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 2: years old. He's satisfying one of those characteristics of yea,

731
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 2: he might be susceptible. Now I'm not saying, you know

732
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 2: that he's innocent of these crimes. But what I am

733
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,760
Speaker 2: saying is is that there's a reason why this became

734
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 2: a landmark case.

735
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you how we keep going here.

736
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 1: He identifies the eighteen year old woman that we started

737
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,919
Speaker 1: the story with who he sexually assaulted, and then he said,

738
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 1: I also did a robbery and an attempted robbery. He said,

739
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: in both of those cases, the women have been assaulted

740
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 1: but escaped before being raped. The robbery was eight dollars

741
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 1: and he took it from a survivor who is a

742
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 1: bank teller. After this statement, he's arrested and booked in

743
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 1: the Maricopa County jail. The prosecutor ends up filing charges

744
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: on the rape and the robbery, not like the attempted robbery.

745
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: So there were three cases that they were interested in

746
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:14,399
Speaker 1: with him. Again the detail about the bank teller, and

747
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: you know a couple of other details. But right because

748
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: of this is a Miranda case. The Miranda case, we

749
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: have to think about what investigators did to get this information,

750
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 1: so they're untrustworthy unfortunately.

751
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 2: Well, you know, and part of what I want to

752
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 2: hear from Miranda, you know, as he's giving his statements

753
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 2: is I want to hear his perspective on how the

754
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 2: crime was committed. Not what I'm hearing you telling me

755
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 2: is well, these are the types of statements that the

756
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 2: victim would be saying. I want to hear his perspective.

757
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 2: I initially saw this victim at this location. I followed

758
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 2: her until we got to this particular location. I got out,

759
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,399
Speaker 2: I went around this corner of the front of my car.

760
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 2: You know something where he's walking through committing the crime

761
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:07,280
Speaker 2: versus regurgitating. She was a bank teller. Well, law enforcement

762
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 2: knows she's a bank teller, right, you know, I need

763
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 2: to hear something sort of outside of what I've heard

764
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 2: so far. I you know, of course I'm familiar with

765
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 2: you know why Miranda exists. I'm not real familiar with

766
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:26,879
Speaker 2: the crimes that Miranda committed. To get to the point

767
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 2: to where now we have this landmark case.

768
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: Right, I'll tell you more about these trials. There's two trials,

769
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: because remember there is a robbery and then there's the rape.

770
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: So he goes on trial for the robbery first in

771
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 1: June of nineteen sixty three. It takes a day. He

772
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:46,919
Speaker 1: has a court appointed attorney who follows emotion indicating that

773
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 1: he intends to plead insanity, and the court has two

774
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: psychiatrists examine him. One of the psychiatrists says that he

775
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: has an emotional illness that the psychiatrist classifies as a

776
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: quote schizophrenic reaction of the chronic undifferentiated type. At the

777
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: same time, he concludes that Miranda was unaware of his

778
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 1: actions but aware that he did something wrong. Meantime, the

779
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 1: other psychiatrist says he's just immature and unstable and he

780
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: doesn't see any evidence of psychosis. So we have the

781
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: arresting officer and the woman who was robbed testify and

782
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,320
Speaker 1: the jury comes back with the unanimous guilty verdict. That afternoon.

783
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: They're waiting on what happens with the rape trial to

784
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,359
Speaker 1: deal with sentencing, and the rape trial is the next day.

785
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: I want to definitely talk about the diagnosis from one

786
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 1: of the psychiatrists about schizophrenia, because you know, you are

787
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 1: talking about vulnerable people and being subjected to unethical interrogation techniques,

788
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: so so far, what are you hearing in this because

789
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 1: he confessed to the robbery as well as you know,

790
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: these other crimes too.

791
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's it's really tough, you know, to

792
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 2: assess kind of the mental health aspect and how that

793
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 2: plays into this case. Most certainly, I'm familiar with schizophrenia,

794
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 2: but in terms of wherever he's at a long sort

795
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:21,280
Speaker 2: of this spectrum a schizophrenia. He's twenty three, we know generally,

796
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 2: you know, in the early twenties. Oftentimes this is when

797
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 2: schizophrenia starts to manifest itself and then it progresses from

798
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 2: that point. I can only right now speculate from my

799
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 2: dvantage point that, yeah, schizophrenia may be something that would

800
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 2: influence Miranda in terms of how he interacts under an

801
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 2: interrogator setting. I mean that is way outside my level

802
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 2: of expertise. You know, for me, what I'm assessing a

803
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 2: let's say prime and we start talking psychosis. You know,

804
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:59,959
Speaker 2: a psychotic offender, a true disorganized offender that has mental

805
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 2: health issue that is so extreme they're unaware that they

806
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 2: are committing a crime that is wrong. This is your

807
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:10,320
Speaker 2: true insanity. I can't form any type of opinion. Does

808
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 2: you know Miranda fall within that type of vendor. You

809
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 2: have one of the psychiatrists saying he's not at the

810
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 2: level of a psychosis, right, I think that's what you said. However,

811
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 2: both psychiatrists, though somewhat different in their opinions, are saying

812
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 2: he does have some sort of mental health aspect to him,

813
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 2: you know, and so that kind of underscores from my perspective. Okay,

814
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 2: he is a vulnerable suspect, and so the interview of

815
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 2: somebody like that needs to be handled in a different

816
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 2: way than likely it was handled in terms of a

817
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 2: hardcore interrogation.

818
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 1: Here's the rape trial. It happens the next day. The

819
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: defense tries to shake the survivor's story. She is very

820
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 1: consistent and believable. The lawyer, for lack of a better phrase,

821
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: completely fucks up his attorney so states Exhibit one is

822
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: Miranda's signed statement which admitted to the rape. But his

823
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: own attorney calls it a confession. No one else in

824
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: the court has called it a confession. They say it's

825
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 1: a statement. So the prosecutor, at the very end in

826
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 1: his closing statement set even his own attorney, says he's confessed,

827
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 1: and this is that. So I mean, this will of

828
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: course set up a pretty decent appeal from Miranda. But

829
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 1: the defense doesn't dispute the validity of this confession statement thing,

830
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: And within minutes the jury comes back with a guilty

831
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 1: verdict and he sentenced to twenty to thirty years for

832
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 1: each count the kidnapping and the rape, and he's also

833
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,399
Speaker 1: sentenced to twenty five years for the robbery. If this

834
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 1: man's last name were not Miranda, this would be the

835
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 1: end of our story. But in the sixties, lawyers and

836
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 1: activists had already started being critical of you know, what

837
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,839
Speaker 1: the constitutional rights are when you are being interrogated by

838
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 1: the police. And that's why this case turns into a

839
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: big case. So in sixty three, the original lawyer who

840
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: defended Miranda is a guy named Alvin Moore. He files

841
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 1: an appeal. And there are other cases involving coerced or

842
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 1: improperly attained confessions that have drawn a lot of national

843
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 1: attention and established the right for an attorney during interrogations

844
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: under the sixth Amendment. So Moore's basis for this appeal

845
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 1: to the Arizona Supreme Court is that his confession was

846
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:33,439
Speaker 1: improperly received as evidence. The state Supreme Court disagrees and

847
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,359
Speaker 1: they uphold the conviction. But there is a lot more

848
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 1: happening here where eventually, I mean, just to kind of

849
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: shorthand this you know, this takes a very windy road

850
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:49,359
Speaker 1: and the ACLU gets involved. There's another case in California

851
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 1: with the California Supreme Court, and that court ruled that

852
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 1: before a suspect is interrogated, he has to be expressly

853
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,959
Speaker 1: informed of his right to an attorney, and Miranda wasn't.

854
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 1: So Arizona and California were contradicting each other as a

855
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,760
Speaker 1: matter of constitutional law. And this is where Robert Corkran,

856
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 1: the retired attorney, decides to step in and he takes

857
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 1: over the case. Now do you want to do a

858
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 1: shorthand of what happens or what do you I mean,

859
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 1: this is such a massive case. We don't know if

860
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 1: he's guilty, but it sure sounds like it to me.

861
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 1: But that's not the point, you know. The point is

862
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 1: establishing your rights, you know, and everybody, even guilty people,

863
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 1: need rights.

864
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 2: I know of the Miranda case, but in terms of

865
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 2: the legal path up to the Supreme Court, not familiar

866
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 2: with that at all. You know, fundamentally, my training when

867
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 2: I was with law enforcement, you know, was with Miranda.

868
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 2: Of course, you're informing the person that you're interviewing of

869
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 2: their rights, you know, the right to remain silent the

870
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:55,359
Speaker 2: right to have an attorney. But the primary criteria that

871
00:49:55,520 --> 00:50:00,439
Speaker 2: impacts law enforcement needing to inform this person of their

872
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 2: rights is the custodial status. Is this person in custody

873
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 2: which means they are not free to leave? Or does

874
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:12,799
Speaker 2: a person have perception of custody? And I believe this

875
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 2: isn't necessarily addressed under the miranda case. There's other case

876
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 2: law related to perception of custody. So as an example,

877
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 2: the way you set, let's say a suspect up in

878
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 2: an interview room and now you have two big burly

879
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:32,839
Speaker 2: detectives that are between that suspect and the door, and

880
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 2: that suspect has just been told you can leave any time,

881
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 2: but he has to push through these two cops. Maybe

882
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 2: one of the cops is in uniform. That person has

883
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 2: a perception I'm not free to leave. So under that

884
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 2: set of circumstances, this is where now law enforcement is going, Okay,

885
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 2: generally good, you know, and there's a balance. You know,

886
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 2: you don't want to mirandize somebody if you don't have to,

887
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 2: or now you just have told this person shut up.

888
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 2: You want this person to cooperate, But if you recognize, okay,

889
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 2: this person is talking to me voluntarily, and they're free

890
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:09,799
Speaker 2: to leave, but there might be a perception that on

891
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 2: their part that they're not free to leave because maybe

892
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 2: the way our station house is set up. You know,

893
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 2: you air on the side of caution, and you mirandize

894
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 2: them right and hope that that person is still going

895
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 2: to want to be able to cooperate and provide statements

896
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 2: so you can further your investigation. There's almost a tactical

897
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 2: way of having to approach. You have to assess your suspect,

898
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,399
Speaker 2: the situation that you're talking to the suspect, and whether

899
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 2: or not it truly does require to mirandize them or not,

900
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 2: or is it in the gray area yep? And then

901
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 2: generally it's sort of like, oh, you better err on

902
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:46,839
Speaker 2: the side of caution, because if you don't, pretty much

903
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 2: you have just killed the case. If they find out

904
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 2: that you should have mirandized them.

905
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 1: This goes all the way to the Supreme Court. And

906
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 1: there has to be clarity because there are a lot

907
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 1: of cases that are now coming forward where people are saying,

908
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 1: you're talking about intimidation with the police. A lot of

909
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 1: the arguments are I'm not educated enough to know, you know,

910
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:09,800
Speaker 1: Paul holds the banker probably knows his rights, but Miranda didn't.

911
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 1: And so what the Supreme Court eventually votes five to four,

912
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,399
Speaker 1: you know, in favor of They essentially say that if

913
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: the Constitution only protects Americans who are educated enough to

914
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 1: know their rights, then not all Americans are protected. So

915
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 1: you know, this is, like I said, a five to

916
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 1: four decision, and in response, police departments across the country

917
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: give out those cards to their personnel with language to

918
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:38,120
Speaker 1: inform suspects of their rights. You know, the Supreme Court

919
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 1: didn't prescribe any specific language, but this is where the

920
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: little speech that the police will give you if you're

921
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:49,280
Speaker 1: under arrest. Miranda's conviction is overturned and that drives me crazy.

922
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:53,360
Speaker 1: But he goes on trial again in Arizona in nineteen

923
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 1: sixty seven. This is only for the rape and the kidnapping,

924
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 1: since the robbery didn't go to the Supreme Court and

925
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 1: his original confession is not admitted as evidence. He has

926
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 1: tried under a false name because Miranda is very famous

927
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 1: now and his estranged girlfriend, the woman who had been

928
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 1: living with him, testifies against him, and he has found

929
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:17,240
Speaker 1: guilty in sentenced to twenty to thirty years in prison.

930
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 1: Eventually he applies and has denied parole four times. He

931
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:26,840
Speaker 1: is granted in nineteen seventy two parole, So he serves

932
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,840
Speaker 1: about nine years in prison, and he violates this parole

933
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 1: with a lot of misdemeanors, goes back to prison for

934
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 1: another five years. He's released in seventy five, and he

935
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 1: is stabbed to death at a bar in nineteen seventy

936
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 1: five after he's released.

937
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:43,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds vaguely familiar. I think I may have

938
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 2: heard that at some point, but most certainly most of

939
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,959
Speaker 2: what you just told me about, you know, Miranda's back

940
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 2: and forth with prison and parole, I did not know.

941
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know, he ends up at this bar

942
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: and he gets into an argument and he's stabbed in

943
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 1: the chest in the net can. He dies within minutes,

944
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: you know. I mean a little side note, They find

945
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:06,400
Speaker 1: the guy who did it. They inform them of his

946
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: rights in Spanish because he doesn't speak English. So that's

947
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 1: how evolved they became. So they inform aim of his

948
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 1: rights in Spanish, and he waves his rights and he

949
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: tells Billie, you know that he didn't do it, and

950
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: they don't arrest him. So, I mean, the irony here

951
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 1: is is he waves his rights, he denies that he

952
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 1: did this, he had some injuries, and the police let

953
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:28,760
Speaker 1: him go. And when they go back to find him again,

954
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 1: when employees say we can identify him, he's gone. He's

955
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 1: in Mexico.

956
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 2: And this is the suspect in Miranda's homicide.

957
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 1: Yes, so he's gone where his family lives. He's in

958
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 1: the wind. So the murder of Ernesto Miranda. You know,

959
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 1: no one was ever arrested for the murder of Ernesto Miranda.

960
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 1: And I mean this story. Of course, I'm familiar with

961
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 1: miranda rights, but I did not know the backstory of it.

962
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 1: I know this is not our traditional true crime, But

963
00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:00,919
Speaker 1: like I said, I'm always interested in why cases are.

964
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 1: You know, case law is established and you know where

965
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 1: different things come from in our history, and this was

966
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 1: an interesting case.

967
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:11,240
Speaker 2: Well yeah, no, for sure, it's a landmark case. It's

968
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 2: you know, it's one of those things you know there's

969
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 2: for law enforcement, there are select individuals, you know, just

970
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 2: whether they're patrol guys or investigators. They love staying on

971
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 2: top of the case law and they often I can

972
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 2: think of one guy who is a DA investigator. He

973
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 2: would give training to the other investigators, Hey, this is

974
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 2: the curt this was just a Supreme Court decision, or

975
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 2: here's a California appellate decision, because you need to know,

976
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 2: you know what changes. You go through the police academy

977
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:43,799
Speaker 2: and you're told about Miranda, but then there's other case

978
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 2: law that have modified Miranda, right, so you have to

979
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 2: stay on top of that. And there are people that

980
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 2: fortunately that do that and that of course, you know,

981
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:56,320
Speaker 2: the prosecutors, your attorneys are the ones that are really

982
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 2: the experts. You know. So if law enforcement, if an

983
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:03,759
Speaker 2: invest stigator ever has a question about the legality of

984
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,799
Speaker 2: let's say a certain type of search, you know, you

985
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 2: ring up your local prosecutor and you run the facts

986
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 2: by them and say, hey does this work?

987
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 1: You know before you do it and you screw something up.

988
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, And and that's where, you know, one

989
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 2: of the reasons I enjoy the cold case side is

990
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 2: things are slow. They're slow moving, right, they're decades old.

991
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:29,360
Speaker 1: You don't have that public pressure, right.

992
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 2: You don't have you know. I don't think people truly

993
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,799
Speaker 2: appreciate whether it's a patrol officer that's responding to an

994
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:39,440
Speaker 2: active crime or an investigator investigating an after crime. How

995
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 2: many decisions they have to make on the fly, and

996
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 2: they have to make those decisions based on what the

997
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 2: current case law is. It's not something that they necessarily

998
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 2: have received a bunch of training on, you know. So

999
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 2: this is part of the evolution as you go through

1000
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 2: your career of seeing how laws change over time. And

1001
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,319
Speaker 2: it's not necessarily in the penal code. It's something that

1002
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 2: is now. You know, the attorney for the sheriff's office sed, hey,

1003
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:11,879
Speaker 2: there's new California Supreme Court has just come out with this,

1004
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 2: and so even though you've been doing it this way

1005
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 2: up until today, tomorrow, you need it to do it

1006
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 2: this way, you know, and you have to make that

1007
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 2: adjustment or you potentially could have a case thrown out.

1008
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, like I said, not our normal type of story,

1009
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:29,280
Speaker 1: but important and I love learning about where things come from.

1010
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 1: Next week, I can almost guarantee we're not going to

1011
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:36,440
Speaker 1: be talking about Miranda rights, probably because from the eighteen

1012
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: hundreds and they ain't have any rights, so itus you'd

1013
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 1: be lucky to survive interrogation. But you know, we will

1014
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 1: have a case that definitely has some deep history. So

1015
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:50,640
Speaker 1: I hope you look forward to it.

1016
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 2: Paul I always do and another great job today, Kate.

1017
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 2: Thank you very much.

1018
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 1: Thank you, Paul, I see you next week.

1019
00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 2: Sounds good.

1020
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

1021
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot

1022
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.

1023
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Mrosi.

1024
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1025
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:19,400
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1026
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1027
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1028
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

1029
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1030
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:33,560
Speaker 1: buried Bones pod.

1031
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1032
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1033
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

1034
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

1035
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.

1036
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:51,120
Speaker 2: Listen to Baried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1037
00:58:51,200 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.