Speaker 1: School of Humans. Helen Got Murder Line actively investigates cold
Speaker 1: case murders in an effort to raise public awareness invite
Speaker 1: witnesses to come forward and present evidence that could potentially
Speaker 1: be further investigated by law enforcement. While we value insights
Speaker 1: from family and community members, their statements should not be
Speaker 1: considered evidence and point to the challenges of verifying facts
Speaker 1: inherent in cold cases. We remind listeners that everyone has
Speaker 1: presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
Speaker 1: Nothing in the podcast is intended to state or imply
Speaker 1: that anyone who has not been convicted of a crime
Speaker 1: is guilty of any wrongdoing. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2: On Tuesday, November twenty fifth, nineteen ninety seven, Thanksgiving Day,
Speaker 2: sixteen year old Karen Mitchell had the day off from
Speaker 2: school and was thinking about her future. Karen grew up
Speaker 2: in southern California and for a long time lived with
Speaker 2: her mother, Mary Casper, and her brother James in Whittier,
Speaker 2: a town about twenty miles from Long Beach, California. Karen
Speaker 2: had been attending high school in Long Beach, but Karen
Speaker 2: had recently made the decision to move in with her
Speaker 2: aunt and uncle to a small town in northern California
Speaker 2: called Eureka in Humboldt County, population twenty eight thousand. The
Speaker 2: Guardian newspaper did an interview with Karen's mother, Mary and
Speaker 2: her brother James in twenty fifteen, and according to what
Speaker 2: Mary told the newspaper, Karen didn't really fit in in
Speaker 2: Long Beach. She was kind of a hippie, very into
Speaker 2: the environment, animals and nature. She didn't care about fashion
Speaker 2: or makeup like a lot of the other girls in
Speaker 2: her class. It seemed like there was some conflict brewing
Speaker 2: at home, her mom told the newspaper. They had been
Speaker 2: butting heads and arguing more often. A lot of it
Speaker 2: seemed to be typical teenage stuff, But they came to
Speaker 2: the conclusion Karen wasn't happy in southern California. It just
Speaker 2: didn't seem to be the right environment for kid Karen.
Speaker 2: So Karen and Mary decided that Karen would spend a
Speaker 2: year living with her aunt Annie and uncle Bill Casper
Speaker 2: in northern California. This was a much more rural area
Speaker 2: where she could enjoy nature, and also thought to be
Speaker 2: a safer area with a slower pace of living.
Speaker 3: After living in Eureka.
Speaker 2: For a few months, it seemed like Karen was happy there,
Speaker 2: at least at first. She had found a job at
Speaker 2: a local daycare and was scheduled to work on that
Speaker 2: Tuesday afternoon. Annie Casper, Karen's aunt, was her legal guardian.
Speaker 2: She owned a shoe store inside the Bay Shore Mall.
Speaker 2: That day, because there was no school, Karen caught a
Speaker 2: ride with Annie to her shoe shop, which was in
Speaker 2: the thirty three hundred block of Broadway Street, the local
Speaker 2: name for the one oh one Freeway now the one
Speaker 2: oh one Freeway, was the main and pretty much only
Speaker 2: thoroughfare through town.
Speaker 3: The mall was about three quarters.
Speaker 2: Of a mile to a mile from Humboldt Childcare Council,
Speaker 2: the daycare where Karen worked. Spent some time hanging out
Speaker 2: with her Anne at the store, then she left for work.
Speaker 2: Her route took her north on a street that in
Speaker 2: Eureka is sometimes referred to as Broadway. Karen headed on
Speaker 2: foot in the direction of West Sonoma Street in Eureka
Speaker 2: to her workplace at around two forty five pm. Karen's
Speaker 2: trip to work should have taken her about a mile
Speaker 2: down the one oh one, a highway that was heavily
Speaker 2: populated and This was in the middle of the day,
Speaker 2: but her aunt Annie came to the childcare center around
Speaker 2: three hours later to pick Karen up. That's when she
Speaker 2: figured out Karen never made it to work. Annie immediately
Speaker 2: knew that something was wrong. She called Karen's mother, Mary
Speaker 2: in southern California. They called the police to report Karen missing.
Speaker 2: Mary drove up to Eureka to help look for Karen,
Speaker 2: but Mary never saw her daughter alive again. Karen Mitchell
Speaker 2: was gone. I'm Catherine Townsend. Over the past seven years
Speaker 2: of making my true crime podcast, Helen Gone, I've learned
Speaker 2: that there is no such thing as a small town
Speaker 2: where murder never happens. I have received hundreds of messages
Speaker 2: from people all around the country asking for help with
Speaker 2: an unsolved murder that's affected them, their families, and their communities.
Speaker 2: If you have a case you'd like me and my
Speaker 2: team to look into, you can reach out to us
Speaker 2: at our Helen Gone Murder Line at six seven eight
Speaker 2: seven four four six one four five. That's six seven
Speaker 2: eight seven four four six one four five, or you
Speaker 2: can send us a message on Instagram at Helen Gonepod.
Speaker 2: This is Helen Gone Murder Line. Karen Mitchell was born
Speaker 2: on November thirtieth, nineteen eighty. She grew up in Whittier,
Speaker 2: about twenty five miles from Long Beach, California, and stayed
Speaker 2: there through junior high school. Her mom and aunt told
Speaker 2: Dateline that even as a little girl, Karen cared deeply
Speaker 2: about people and causes. She did things like attend peace
Speaker 2: rallies or give money to people in need. Her aunt,
Speaker 2: Annie described her to Dateline as a very smart young woman.
Speaker 3: Who was an old soul.
Speaker 2: And even though Karen had moved Nora to be with
Speaker 2: her aunt and uncle, she maintained a close relationship with
Speaker 2: her mother, Mary and her brother. They spoke regularly. Karen
Speaker 2: came home for summer and for school holidays. In fact,
Speaker 2: Karen had been planning to fly home over Christmas. She
Speaker 2: had already bought the tickets, but the tickets remained unused.
Speaker 2: Police asked Karen's family about their last contact with her.
Speaker 2: Mary told investigators that her last phone conversation was on
Speaker 2: the morning that Karen disappeared. Because even though Karen was
Speaker 2: happy in Eureka and making friends and getting good grades,
Speaker 2: she also seemed to be getting restless. She had told
Speaker 2: her mom she hoped to finish high school in the
Speaker 2: next few months, to graduate early, and then to enroll
Speaker 2: at Humboldt State College. The school now known as California
Speaker 2: State Polytechnic University. So Karen and her mother had spent
Speaker 2: the morning chatting and filling out a college application over
Speaker 2: the phone. Both her mom and her aunt said Karen
Speaker 2: would never disappear voluntarily. Soon police and searchers were scouring
Speaker 2: the area. Karen's missing posters went up everywhere. According to
Speaker 2: the missing person's info posted on the dough project, Karen
Speaker 2: was five feet inches tall, weighing one hundred and thirty pounds.
Speaker 2: She had short, sandy blonde hair that went to her neck,
Speaker 2: and greenish blue eyes. She was last seen wearing a
Speaker 2: long sleeved tan shirt, baggy dark brown corduroy pants, and
Speaker 2: tan leather shoes with buckles. Karen was also wearing some jewelry,
Speaker 2: a silver necklace with crystal, three silver rings, and small
Speaker 2: hoop earrings, and she was carrying a reusable now Jean
Speaker 2: water bottle. Police scoured the area with canines and kidaver
Speaker 2: sniffing dogs. Volunteers in law enforcement searched a lot of terrain.
Speaker 2: They had a big response. A lot of people saw
Speaker 2: those posters and some reached out with tips. A motel
Speaker 2: owner reached out to Mary and said he believed that
Speaker 2: Karen was at his motel, so she rushed there and
Speaker 2: saw young woman. This young woman looked like Karen, but
Speaker 2: it wasn't her. Then a few months after Karen disappeared,
Speaker 2: police got a potential lead. A witness came forward who
Speaker 2: said that he saw a woman whom he believed to
Speaker 2: be Karen on the day she disappeared getting into a vehicle.
Speaker 2: The witness described the vehicle as a light blue fordor
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy six to nineteen seventy eight sedan, possibly a
Speaker 2: Ford Granada, a Mercury Monarch, or a Nissan. The most
Speaker 2: memorable part of the description was actually the license plates.
Speaker 2: According to the witness, the driver had California license plates
Speaker 2: and the word Eureka printed on the rear plate's frame.
Speaker 2: This person, the witness, claimed that they actually almost got
Speaker 2: into a car accident when the man in the mystery
Speaker 2: vehicle turned onto Broadway Street aka the one oh one,
Speaker 2: and nearly hit him. After that, the witness said the
Speaker 2: car stopped and picked up a young woman who matched
Speaker 2: Karen's description, so, presumably because they were probably a little
Speaker 2: bit shaken, the witness remembered the driver well. The witness
Speaker 2: described the driver of the car as a white mail
Speaker 2: approximately sixty to seventy years old, with balding, light gray
Speaker 2: or sandy blonde hair. The witness helped police create a
Speaker 2: composite sketch with even more details, including that the man
Speaker 2: had green or gray eyes and a large sized nose
Speaker 2: that appeared to have been previously broken, and that he
Speaker 2: had a small build and wore eyeglasses. The witness stated
Speaker 2: that the driver of the car was wearing a long sleeve,
Speaker 2: buttoned down light blue shirt. We're going to be posting
Speaker 2: sketches of the car and the driver on Instagram at
Speaker 2: hellen gonpod. Because this case is still technically open, there
Speaker 2: is not a lot of information out there about how
Speaker 2: police chase down this leet, but it was reported on
Speaker 2: Charlie project dot org that police did find a car
Speaker 2: similar to the car reported by the witness. Then, shortly
Speaker 2: after Karen disappeared, they apparently located the driver and gave
Speaker 2: that person a polygraph test. It was reported that that
Speaker 2: person w ultimately cleared of any involvement in Karen's disappearance,
Speaker 2: but again we don't know details. Was this definitely the
Speaker 2: car the witness saw, did the Eureka plates match or
Speaker 2: did police just find a car that resembled the description
Speaker 2: given by the witness and questioned the driver of that car.
Speaker 3: Like a lot of things.
Speaker 2: In this case, because this is still an open investigation,
Speaker 2: we're just not sure. I also have some other questions,
Speaker 2: including how reliable is this witness description, because it hits
Speaker 2: me that the witness must have been very close to
Speaker 2: that other car to see the driver's eye color. Again,
Speaker 2: I wish we had access to the case file so
Speaker 2: that we could see exactly what this person told the
Speaker 2: police in the complete interview, because so much of the
Speaker 2: subsequent investigation appears to be based on this witness description.
Speaker 2: It would be super helpful to find out if police
Speaker 2: were able to be sure that this was Karen the
Speaker 2: witness saw. Karen's disappearance shocked the local community. For the
Speaker 2: most part, the area where Karen vanished as known as
Speaker 2: a pretty safe area, and Karen went missing in the
Speaker 2: middle of the day in a well trafficked area. Plus,
Speaker 2: of course, the irony of all this was a part
Speaker 2: of the reason why Karen moved to Humboldt County in
Speaker 2: the first place was because she and her mom thought
Speaker 2: of it as safer than where she had been living
Speaker 2: in southern California. Karen's mother, Mary, gave the Guardian more background.
Speaker 2: She said she had Karen when she was eighteen years
Speaker 2: old and Karen's brother when she was just sixteen years old.
Speaker 2: Karen's mother was married to their father, but they divorced
Speaker 2: when the kids were young, so Mary raised those two
Speaker 2: children as a single mom for years. She worked multiple
Speaker 2: jobs to support her family. Mary said that her brother
Speaker 2: Bill and his wife Annie were the ones who suggested
Speaker 2: that Karen come and live with them and their three
Speaker 2: sons in Eureka. But, as we said before, or even
Speaker 2: though she seemed to find some peace in Eureka, Karen
Speaker 2: seemed to be getting bored. She started making more concrete
Speaker 2: plans to go to college. Police did consider the possibility
Speaker 2: that Karen could have been a runaway, so just to
Speaker 2: briefly touch on that, on the day she disappeared, she
Speaker 2: was figuring out applications and financial aid. It seemed like
Speaker 2: she was planning for the future, so this made her
Speaker 2: friends and family believe she would not have run away. Also,
Speaker 2: she was very reliable about getting to work on time,
Speaker 2: and she specifically said she was headed there. She didn't
Speaker 2: pack anything to take with her. And also, Karen had
Speaker 2: a bank account. After she disappeared, no one ever tried
Speaker 2: to access that money, and as we said before, she
Speaker 2: never came back home to visit her mother and brother
Speaker 2: with her prepaid airline tickets. Months went by and there
Speaker 2: was zero sign of Karen. Eventually, the searches died down
Speaker 2: and the headline stopped. James went back to southern California
Speaker 2: and they waited. Over the years, Mary has talked to
Speaker 2: the media. She appeared on the Sally Jesse Raphael talk show,
Speaker 2: and she talked regularly with the detective in charge of
Speaker 2: the case, Dave Paris.
Speaker 3: From the interviews that Dave Paris has given.
Speaker 2: About the case, it seems clear that he cared deeply
Speaker 2: about it and it's something that he reflected on a
Speaker 2: lot during his time in law enforcement. Dave Paris told
Speaker 2: the Eureka Time Standard back in twenty twelve that he
Speaker 2: was haunted by the case. He said he'd spent a
Speaker 2: lot of time thinking about what could have happened to
Speaker 2: Karen Parts of Humboldt County are places where it could
Speaker 2: be easy for a person to disappear. It's an area
Speaker 2: that's surrounded by a lot of forests, and there were
Speaker 2: a lot of people growing marijuana in those forests. Giant
Speaker 2: redwood trees block out the view from the road. There
Speaker 2: were also a lot of transients in the area and
Speaker 2: a lot of hitchhikers.
Speaker 3: Karen was added to an.
Speaker 2: Ominous list of young women who had gone missing in
Speaker 2: and around Humboldt County. They were known as the Humbolt Five.
Speaker 2: These young women went missing years apart under different circumstances
Speaker 2: in various parts of the county. There's no evident connection
Speaker 2: between any of the cases. The only commonality is that
Speaker 2: all of them were young women, and none of them
Speaker 2: were ever seen again. There's actually a spot there called
Speaker 2: Alder Point that is nicknamed Murder Mountain. It was originally
Speaker 2: apparently nicknamed that after a serial killing couple hid out
Speaker 2: there in nineteen eighty two, but the name kind of
Speaker 2: stuck around. Netflix actually made a documentary about missing people
Speaker 2: in the area called Murder Mountain, but later questions emerged
Speaker 2: about how accurate these statistics of missing people were. In
Speaker 2: the area because it's been widely reported that. The California
Speaker 2: Department of Justice stated that in twenty twenty four, two
Speaker 2: hundred and forty four children and two hundred and thirty
Speaker 2: eight adults were reported missing from Homboldt County, But the
Speaker 2: Sheriff of Humboldt County made a statement to KRCR news.
Speaker 2: He pointed out that of the two hundred and forty
Speaker 2: four juveniles reported missing, two hundred and forty two of
Speaker 2: them were later found, and out of the two hundred
Speaker 2: and thirty eight adults that were reported missing, two hundred
Speaker 2: and three were found.
Speaker 3: So yes, at first glance, the.
Speaker 2: Sheriff said, there seemed to be a lot of missing
Speaker 2: people in Humboldt County, but you have to look at
Speaker 2: the other side of the equation. Most of those people
Speaker 2: are eventually found. Unfortunately, Karen Mitchell was not one of them.
Speaker 2: Over the years, there were some suspects and people of
Speaker 2: interest who popped up, including two very high profile serial killers.
Speaker 2: One of them was a man named Wayne adam Ford.
Speaker 2: At around six thirty pm on November third, nineteen ninety eight,
Speaker 2: thirty six year old Wayne adam Ford walked into the
Speaker 2: Humboldt County Sheriff's office with his brother. He told police
Speaker 2: he wanted to confess to murder. Then he held out
Speaker 2: a piece of female breast that was sealed inside a
Speaker 2: plastic bag that he had in his jacket pocket. Wayne
Speaker 2: adam Ford had a connection to the area. He had
Speaker 2: lived in Trinidad, a town about thirty minutes outside of Eureka.
Speaker 2: He was recently divorced at the time and had a
Speaker 2: two year old son. He lived a fairly isolated life.
Speaker 2: His wife and son were living in Las Vegas. Wayne
Speaker 2: was a long haul trucker, which he claimed gave him
Speaker 2: access to his female victims. Women came forward and described
Speaker 2: being attacked by a man who matched Wayne's description, and
Speaker 2: he drove a truck.
Speaker 3: Police explored the possibility.
Speaker 2: That he may have been involved in other crimes, including
Speaker 2: other murders. Carlton Smith, author of a book called Shadows
Speaker 2: of Evil, pointed out in the book that this was
Speaker 2: an interesting case because behavioral analysts at the FBI training
Speaker 2: facility at Quantico at the time believed serial killers tend
Speaker 2: to escalate over time. In other words, their murders get
Speaker 2: worse and more brutal. But Wayne's trajectory seemed to be
Speaker 2: the opposite. Wayne eventually confessed to murdering four people, including
Speaker 2: a young woman, Jane Doe. Her torso was found floating
Speaker 2: in Humboldt County near Eureka. Her case was known as
Speaker 2: the Torso Case. In twenty twenty three, Jane Doe was
Speaker 2: finally identified as twenty five year old carry Ann Cummings.
Speaker 2: Wayne was eventually convicted of killing carry Anne and three
Speaker 2: other victims. Twenty six year old Tina Renee Gibbs, who
Speaker 2: was killed in Las Vegas on May sixteenth, nineteen ninety eight,
Speaker 2: and her body dumped in Kern County, California. Twenty five
Speaker 2: year old Lynette White, who was murdered on September twenty fifth,
Speaker 2: nineteen nine, and Ontario, California. Her body was dumped in
Speaker 2: an irrigation canal near Lodi, California. The final victim was
Speaker 2: twenty nine year old Patricia Times. She was murdered in Hissperia, California,
Speaker 2: in October of nineteen ninety eight. Her body was dumped
Speaker 2: in an aqueduct in San Bernardino County. Wayne claimed that
Speaker 2: he picked up three of his victims as hitchhikers, but
Speaker 2: police said there were parts of his story that didn't
Speaker 2: really make sense. They said three of Wayne's victims were
Speaker 2: known sex workers. Because of that, they believe Wain was
Speaker 2: lying about the real reason why they initially got into
Speaker 2: his vehicle, but he was telling the truth.
Speaker 3: About where the bodies were located.
Speaker 2: Waine was also unusual, and then he randomly showed up
Speaker 2: to confess to his crimes, and he seemed to have
Speaker 2: a genuine desire to stop rather than trying to just
Speaker 2: taunt the police. Police have stated Wayne killed his first
Speaker 2: victim about a month before Karen disappeared, but other than
Speaker 2: proximity to Karen, there wasn't much to.
Speaker 3: Go on evidence wise.
Speaker 2: Neither the vehicle nor the description of the driver matched
Speaker 2: Wayne Ford's appearance. It was reported in nineteen ninety nine
Speaker 2: in the Los Angeles Times that police were waiting on
Speaker 2: DNA tests to see if Wayne could be linked to
Speaker 2: Karen's case, but after that nothing further was reported and
Speaker 2: police did not move forward with pursuing a case against Wayne.
Speaker 2: Wayne was operating in the same area as where Karen
Speaker 2: went missing, but he drove a truck, not the car
Speaker 2: the witness described, and the link between him and Karen
Speaker 2: was never established. Not to mention the fact that Wayne
Speaker 2: confessed to his kills but he never mentioned Karen. Of course,
Speaker 2: serial killers and killers in general, can lie, especially when
Speaker 2: they have something to gain. In Mary and James's twenty
Speaker 2: fifteen interview with the Guardian, the writer asked Mary Casper
Speaker 2: about the Wayne Ford rumors. Mary told the Guardian the
Speaker 2: detective Ferris told her Wayne Ford was given a lie
Speaker 2: detector test and that he was specifically questioned about Karen,
Speaker 2: that Wayne had denied having anything to do with her disappearance,
Speaker 2: and that apparently he passed that test. Mary also told
Speaker 2: the newspapers she went a step further. She said in
Speaker 2: two thousand she personally went to see Wayne Ford in prison.
Speaker 2: Mary said she asked him point blank if he killed Karen.
Speaker 2: She also showed Wayne pictures of her daughter. Mary claimed
Speaker 2: that Wayne told her that quote she looks like she
Speaker 2: could be one of mine.
Speaker 3: End quote.
Speaker 2: But Mary said Wayne was asking her to write to
Speaker 2: him in prison and offering to give her information little
Speaker 2: by little, so she said no.
Speaker 3: For what it's worth.
Speaker 2: I think that Mary refusing to write to Wayne was
Speaker 2: the right call. This is just my opinion, but I
Speaker 2: see way too many instances of killers in prison who
Speaker 2: seemed to get a kick out of streaming along journalists
Speaker 2: and family members other people who write to them. In
Speaker 2: the end, most of them just end up wasting a
Speaker 2: lot of time and for those closest to the victim, causing.
Speaker 3: Even more heartache.
Speaker 2: But it does show how much Mary loved her daughter
Speaker 2: and how she was willing to go to any links
Speaker 2: to try to get answers about what happened to her.
Speaker 2: Karen's case made headlines again in two thousand and two.
Speaker 2: It was reported in the Sioux City Journal that police
Speaker 2: in California were looking at similarities between Karen's case and
Speaker 2: the cases of two young women who were murdered in Oregon.
Speaker 2: In January of two thousand and two, twelve year old
Speaker 2: Ashley Pond disappeared on her way to the bus stop
Speaker 2: in Oregon City. Then two months later, a classmate of hers,
Speaker 2: thirteen year old Miranda Gaddis, also disappeared in the same neighborhood,
Speaker 2: also near a bus stop. The two girls' bodies were
Speaker 2: eventually found at a property rented by thirty nine year
Speaker 2: old Ward Weaver the Third. Ward Weaver the Third lived
Speaker 2: near the area where both girls disappeared. One of the
Speaker 2: girl's bodies was found in a shed. The other body
Speaker 2: was found buried under a concrete slab. Police found the
Speaker 2: bodies when they were investigating Ward Weaver for the rape
Speaker 2: of his son's girlfriend. In two thousand and four, Ward
Speaker 2: Weaver was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole
Speaker 2: for the sexual assault and murders of Miranda and Ashley.
Speaker 2: Even though those murders happened in Oregon, it was reported
Speaker 2: that Ward Weaver grew up in Eureka, the same town
Speaker 2: where Karen was living at the time of her disappearance. Randomly,
Speaker 2: Ward Weaver the Third's father, Ward Weaver Junior, is also
Speaker 2: a convicted serial killer. Ward Weaver Junior was arrested and
Speaker 2: convicted of the murders of a young couple in nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty one and dumping their bodies under concrete in his backyard.
Speaker 2: At the time Karen went missing, it was reported that
Speaker 2: Ward Junior, the father was in prison. Other than Ward
Speaker 2: the Third's proximity to Karen Mitchell's hometown. At some point,
Speaker 2: police apparently determined there was no connection between Ward Weaver
Speaker 2: and Karen Mitchell, but in twenty fifteen, another very infamous
Speaker 2: name came up as being potentially connected to Karen's case.
Speaker 2: Multi millionaire real estate scion turned serial killer Robert Durst.
Speaker 2: Robert Durst, of course, was a member of the Durst
Speaker 2: family of Manhattan real estate magnets. His family was worth
Speaker 2: an estimated eight billion dollars and founded the Durst Organization,
Speaker 2: which eventually went on to own, manage, and build and
Speaker 2: estimated thirteen million square feet in Manhattan office towers. Robert Durst,
Speaker 2: of course, became a household name early in twenty fifteen
Speaker 2: after being the subject of the HBO documentary series The James.
Speaker 2: I won't go through all the details of this case.
Speaker 2: This story is a much too long and bizarre to
Speaker 2: cover completely here, but just to briefly recap, Robert Durst
Speaker 2: was suspected of several murders when the documentary aired in
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, including the killing of his neighbor Morris Black
Speaker 2: in Texas in two thousand and one, the murder of
Speaker 2: his friend Susan Berman in Los Angeles in two thousand
Speaker 2: and the murder of his wife, Kathleen, who went missing
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty two under very suspicious circumstances. Kathleen was
Speaker 2: twenty nine years old and in medical school when she
Speaker 2: vanished without a trace on January thirty first, nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 2: She and Robert had been living in Westchester County, New York.
Speaker 2: He told police they had an argument and she left
Speaker 2: their home and he had no idea where she was,
Speaker 2: but Robert waited five days to report her missing, and
Speaker 2: their marriage had been volladle. Kathleen's family said Robert was
Speaker 2: controlling and had rage issues, so from the beginning, Kathleen's
Speaker 2: family always suspected that Robert killed Kathleen.
Speaker 3: After Kathleen disappeared, Robert did too.
Speaker 2: For a long time, he kind of disappeared off the grid.
Speaker 2: Family and friends had no idea where he was. Then,
Speaker 2: on September thirtieth, two thousand and one, the body of
Speaker 2: Robert's neighbor and friend, seventy one year old Morris Black,
Speaker 2: washed up in Galveston Bay, Texas. Morris Black had been dismembered.
Speaker 2: Police quickly focused on Robert Durst because at the time
Speaker 2: he was living in the same apartment complex as Morris Black.
Speaker 2: Robert Durst admitted he did dismember Morris's body and get
Speaker 2: rid of it, but he denied murdering him. He claimed
Speaker 2: Morris had attacked him, and that he fatally shot Morris
Speaker 2: in self defense before dumping his body. In two thousand
Speaker 2: and three, Robert Durst was acquitted of Morris Black's murder
Speaker 2: in Texas, he ended up pleading guilty to tampering with
Speaker 2: evidence relating to him cutting up Morris Black's body and
Speaker 2: disposing of it rather than calling law enforcement. Then, in
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, Robert Durst was arrested in New Orleans, Louisiana
Speaker 2: on weapons charges. He was charged with the murder of
Speaker 2: his friend Susan Berman in Los Angeles, and then in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, following the massive global publicity that was
Speaker 2: brought to the case by the show The Jinks and
Speaker 2: a long drawn out trial in La Robert Durst was
Speaker 2: eventually convicted.
Speaker 3: Of murdering Susan Burman.
Speaker 2: Robert Durst got life without the possibility of parole. He
Speaker 2: was sent to prison. Then in October of twenty twenty one,
Speaker 2: he was finally charged with Kathleen's murder, but that trial
Speaker 2: never happen because in January of twenty twenty two, Robert
Speaker 2: Durst died in prison at the age of seventy eight.
Speaker 2: So there are a lot of questions that police can't
Speaker 2: ask Robert Durst about his past. There were a lot
Speaker 2: of years after Kathleen went missing and before Morris Black's
Speaker 2: body washed up. When Robert Durst flew under the radar,
Speaker 2: he cut off contact with pretty much his entire family.
Speaker 3: He lived under various.
Speaker 2: Aliases, paying cash, sometimes living or presenting as a woman
Speaker 2: in different cities around the country.
Speaker 3: But we do know where.
Speaker 2: He was for at least some of that time, and
Speaker 2: as it turns out, during the time when went missing,
Speaker 2: Robert Durst was living in the small town of Trinidad,
Speaker 2: about twenty two miles or less than half an hour's
Speaker 2: drive from where Karen Mitchell lived with her aunt and uncle.
Speaker 2: Robert had bought himself a modest three story house near
Speaker 2: the coast. In March of twenty fifteen, after the last
Speaker 2: episode of The Jinks Aard and after Robert Durst was
Speaker 2: arrested in New Orleans, several law enforcement agencies apparently were
Speaker 2: trying to review his address history. They wanted to figure
Speaker 2: out if he could be responsible for more crimes. FBI
Speaker 2: Director James Comey announced that he was ordering.
Speaker 3: Every FBI bureau in the United.
Speaker 2: States to review cold cases he wanted to find out
Speaker 2: where Robert Durst was over all those years, and according
Speaker 2: to multiple media reports, the FBI did appear to be
Speaker 2: covering all bases and taking the Humboldt County potential connection seriously.
Speaker 2: Police in Eureka announced they wanted to speak to Robert
Speaker 2: Durst about Karen mad though the Guardian article noted nothing
Speaker 2: was ever confirmed. We have to take a lot of
Speaker 2: these theories with a grain of salt when you try
Speaker 2: to trace them back to their source. A lot of
Speaker 2: these theories seemed to have been circulated at the time
Speaker 2: by a journalist named.
Speaker 3: Matt burt Beck.
Speaker 2: He wrote a book about Robert Durst called A Deadly Secret.
Speaker 2: He stated in that book that he believed Robert Durst
Speaker 2: could be responsible for Karen's murder because he has claimed
Speaker 2: on his website there are credit card records that put
Speaker 2: Robert Durst in Eureka on the day Karen disappeared. Matt
Speaker 2: also claims Robert Durst resembles the composite sketch, the one
Speaker 2: that police made of the man with glasses and a
Speaker 2: broken nose who was driving the vehicle that the witness
Speaker 2: said they believe they saw Karen getting into. The New
Speaker 2: York Daily News also reported Robert Durst apparently visited the
Speaker 2: shoe store where Karen's aunt Annie worked at least four times.
Speaker 2: At this time, he was dressing in women's clothing and
Speaker 2: presenting as female. Matt burt Beck told the Daily News
Speaker 2: Robert Durst had also been seen at a homeless shelter,
Speaker 2: one where he claimed that Karen volunteered. Robert Durst was
Speaker 2: never charged in connection with Karen Mitchell's case, and though
Speaker 2: the case file is still open and can't be accessed
Speaker 2: through FOYA, we have no way of knowing if police
Speaker 2: ever even talk to him about Karen's disappearance in the
Speaker 2: years between twenty fifteen and twenty twenty one, when he.
Speaker 3: Died in prison.
Speaker 2: I will say Robert Durst, when he presents as a man,
Speaker 2: does appear to resemble the composite sketch of the stranger
Speaker 2: who was supposedly the driver of the car.
Speaker 3: Karen was seen getting into.
Speaker 2: Robert Durst also had connections with the area.
Speaker 3: But a lot of other people resemble that composite sketch.
Speaker 2: It's very general and even if Robert Durst was in
Speaker 2: Humbolt County at the same time as Karen Mitchell.
Speaker 3: I'm still skeptical.
Speaker 2: It's definitely possible that Robert Durst committed other crimes, maybe
Speaker 2: even other killings, while flying under the radar for all
Speaker 2: those years. For example, in two thousand and fifty, police
Speaker 2: announced they were looking at Robert Durst as a possible
Speaker 2: suspect in the disappearance of an eighteen year old named
Speaker 2: Lynn Schultz. Lynn Schultz went missing in Middlebury, Vermont, on
Speaker 2: December tenth, nineteen seventy one. Police figured out Robert Durst
Speaker 2: and his wife, Kathleen were living in the area at
Speaker 2: the time. Kathleen owned a health food store called All
Speaker 2: Good Things, and the last place that Lynn was seen
Speaker 2: was eating dates or prunes outside of that health food store. Also,
Speaker 2: Lynn had been telling friends she was considering starting a
Speaker 2: new life somewhere else. She told at least one friend
Speaker 2: on the last day she was seen alive, she was
Speaker 2: planning on buying a bus ticket to New York, which is,
Speaker 2: of course where Robert's family lived. Again, we don't know
Speaker 2: for sure what investigating police have done on all these leads,
Speaker 2: but at least on the surface, it does not seem
Speaker 2: as though Karen Mitchell's disappearance would have fit Robert Dursimo.
Speaker 2: Robert killed his wife Kathleen following domestic violence. Kathleen was
Speaker 2: threatening to leave it. He killed Susan Burman because she
Speaker 2: had information about Kathleen's disappearance, and she may have been
Speaker 2: blackmailing Robert. And whether or not you believe Robert's story
Speaker 2: about self defense or not. And again, Robert was acquitted
Speaker 2: of killing Morris Black. Morris was his neighbor and witnesses
Speaker 2: said Morris was very confrontational. So Robert's killings, at least
Speaker 2: the ones that we know about, all appeared to have
Speaker 2: been motivated by some kind of personal conflict. But there's
Speaker 2: no suggestion that, other than Robert possibly going to her
Speaker 2: aunt's shoe shop, there was any kind of a personal
Speaker 2: connection between Robert Durst and Karen Mitchell. Also, it's been
Speaker 2: reported that Robert presented as a woman and wore women's
Speaker 2: clothing when he came into her aunt's shop, But the
Speaker 2: driver of the car that Karen Mitchell got into was
Speaker 2: described as a man. So what happens next in Karen
Speaker 2: Mitchell's investigation. In twenty fifteen, the family stated they were
Speaker 2: still in communication with the Eureka police Department and the FBI.
Speaker 2: This is still an open investigation. Mary Casper told The
Speaker 2: Guardian that for a long time, part of her was
Speaker 2: still hoping Karen was out there somewhere alive. That she
Speaker 2: caught herself holding onto that hope at times, but at
Speaker 2: the same time she desperately wanted closure. She wanted to
Speaker 2: know what happened to her daughter, and she wants justice,
Speaker 2: even if the truth about what happened to Karen ends
Speaker 2: up being horrifying. She told The Guardian, quote, we can't
Speaker 2: have both. We can't have closure without details end quote.
Speaker 2: Police have asked anyone with any information about Karen Mitchell
Speaker 2: contact the Eureka Police Department at seven oh seven four
Speaker 2: four one four three zero zero. I'm Catherine Townsend. This
Speaker 2: is Helen Gone Murder Line. Helen Gone Murder Line is
Speaker 2: a production of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's
Speaker 2: written and narrated by me Catherine Townsend and produced by
Speaker 2: Etilye's Perez Special thanks to Amy Tubbs for her research assistance.
Speaker 2: Noah Camera mixed and scored this episode. Our theme song
Speaker 2: is by Ben Sale. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr,
Speaker 2: and LC Crowley.
Speaker 3: Listen to Helen.
Speaker 2: Gone ad free by subscribing to the iHeart True Crime
Speaker 2: Plus channel on Apple Podcasts. If you were interested in
Speaker 2: seeing documents and materials from the case, you can follow
Speaker 2: the show on Instagram at Helen Gonepod. If you have
Speaker 2: a case you'd like me and my team to look into,
Speaker 2: you can reach out to us at our Helen Gone
Speaker 2: Murder line at six seven eight seven four four six
Speaker 2: one four five. That's six seven eight seven four four
Speaker 2: six one four five.
Speaker 1: School of Humans