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Speaker 1: Too Much Information is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello everyone, and welcome to Too Much Information, the show

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Speaker 2: that gives you the secret histories and little known fascinating

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Speaker 2: facts and figures behind your favorite movies, music, TV shows

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Speaker 2: and more. I am so sick of doing the alliterative.

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Speaker 1: Thing, but we thank you for letting us be ourselves.

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Speaker 2: You're right, it was right there. Yeah, I really left

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Speaker 2: that one on the table. Yeah, I regret the air.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it makes sense for me to do that one.

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Speaker 2: And it does, doesn't it? It does, But grammarly just

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Speaker 2: gave me a pop up that says, this document looks

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Speaker 2: a bit long, you robot.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, I'm Alex Hager, I'm Jordan run Talk.

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Speaker 2: And today, in this true spirit of Si Slone, I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna be talking over Jordan and everything's going to be

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Speaker 2: panned really hard, left and right and flanging and then.

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Speaker 1: Be a lot of slap based talks.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about Sly and the family stone, though mostly Sly.

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Speaker 2: There's a riot going on. Sly's death a month ago

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Speaker 2: was justifiably and correctly met with an outpouring of tributes

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Speaker 2: for a guy who, for a brief time seemed to

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Speaker 2: exemplify the musical and social utopian promise of capital t

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Speaker 2: capital s the sixties. Put in the helicopter with a

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Speaker 2: fortunate son in there. Yeah, okay, thanks.

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Speaker 1: You know, I chired him last week and I almost

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Speaker 1: told him that we've turned one of his most powerful

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Speaker 1: songs into a running bit in our podcast. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: see cool, very cool, very cool. Almost made me cry.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh good. I don't think i'd be abre to

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Speaker 2: talk to him without doing my impression of him. But

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Speaker 2: I'm good.

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Speaker 1: Good. It's like Southern Robert Plant. I was thinking about that.

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Speaker 2: He's not Southern though.

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Speaker 1: I know. Yeah, no, I know long is.

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Speaker 2: I can see either or not. Okay, So yeah, a charismatic,

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Speaker 2: wirdly talented musical polymath leading an interracial and intergender band

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Speaker 2: sliced alone, not befer some I'm going to do this.

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Speaker 2: Sly Stone was heralded as a visionary and pointed to

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Speaker 2: as a cautionary example of what happens when black genius

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Speaker 2: runs aground with the shores of white America. Then the

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Speaker 2: next day Brian Wilson died and everyone forgot about sly Oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm kidding, of course, do this to me. I'm kidding

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Speaker 2: of course, but it does seem cosmically unfair that Sly's

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Speaker 2: death was overshadowed by one of the whitest men ever

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Speaker 2: to make music, a guy who's all dude, all white

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Speaker 2: band got famous pedaling an extremely specific and mostly unreal

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Speaker 2: version of white America.

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Speaker 1: He turned a studio into an instrument for guys like

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Speaker 1: Sly Stone Off.

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Speaker 2: So Jordan is probably going to plan We're probably gonna

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Speaker 2: have like seven hours on pet Sounds at some point

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Speaker 2: this year, but before that, we're going to talk about Sly,

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Speaker 2: and there's a riot going on.

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Speaker 1: I'm getting the sense that you're subtly framing me as

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Speaker 1: a racist right now for the amount of time I'm

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Speaker 1: spending on Brian on the Beach Boys. This correctly.

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Speaker 2: Okay, no, not at all. It's just hilarious that, as

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Speaker 2: I said, one of the most examples of black genius

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Speaker 2: run them up was immediately abor and forgot about it

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Speaker 2: because the whitest guy of all time died.

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Speaker 1: Genius is genius.

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Speaker 2: Genius is genius. Shamefully, I didn't really get with with

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Speaker 2: Sly until college. I grew up hearing everyday people. It

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Speaker 2: feels like every day. At one point in like a

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Speaker 2: singular wireless ad. And I also find that song really annoying.

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Speaker 2: I hate sing songy and I hate nonsense lyrics, so

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Speaker 2: you know, and so Wan and so Wan and Scooby dude,

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Speaker 2: that just makes my blood boil.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, you're you're absolutely correct. I think it was

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Speaker 1: a toyota ad. It was a Toyota ad that really

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Speaker 1: did a major disservice to Slies work throughout the nineties

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Speaker 1: because that song. I still don't think I've actually come

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Speaker 1: around to that song.

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Speaker 2: Yeah no, I'm not over it, and neither was neither

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Speaker 2: was anyone in the band, as we'll learn later.

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Speaker 1: On ah Yeah. But the one thing that we have

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Speaker 1: to thank for it question Mark. It helped popularize the

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Speaker 1: expression different strokes for different folks. Good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a right going on is a remarkable piece

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Speaker 2: of work, even when you kind of divorce it from

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Speaker 2: all its crazy circumstances and the personality. It is the

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Speaker 2: classic death of the sixties narrative going on there. And

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Speaker 2: even though that's a patently well, that's a facile understanding

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Speaker 2: of it. It's an overused critical warhorse to talk about

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Speaker 2: this record. But I think what makes it so unique

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Speaker 2: is that it is from a black guy, first of all,

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Speaker 2: and Sly, unlike anyone else, actually managed to genuinely pull

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Speaker 2: off the quote unquote dream of the sixties. You know,

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Speaker 2: he had an interracial, intergender band with his actual family

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Speaker 2: members in it. At one point they were all living

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Speaker 2: in La together, and.

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Speaker 1: He was in control, and he kind of for a

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Speaker 1: while answered to no one from writing and producing and

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Speaker 1: performing his own stuff, like Brian Wilson.

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Speaker 2: You need to stop doing that. Well, but you know so,

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Speaker 2: I also fell the furthest of probably anyone in the

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Speaker 2: music industry, not that I want to measure tragedy porn,

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Speaker 2: but like for someone who had so many people pulling

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Speaker 2: for him, and we both have kind of inside information

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Speaker 2: on this. Yes, Sly was remarkably determined.

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Speaker 1: To go his own way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for better or for worse. Yeah, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: I got into this this record in college, and frankly,

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Speaker 2: I think it was ahead of me. It actually wasn't

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Speaker 2: until I really flipped my over d'angelo's voodoo, and then

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Speaker 2: I just kept hearing people be like, well, D'Angelo just

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Speaker 2: took his whole vocal overdub approach from Sly and like wow,

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Speaker 2: and also to the idea of trying to humanize I've

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Speaker 2: heard I mean just because I heard Questlove also talk

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Speaker 2: about this. This whole idea of Questlove's drumming on that

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Speaker 2: album and elsewhere is like kind of taken from Jay Dilla.

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Speaker 2: He was building beats with MPCs, but he wasn't squaring

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Speaker 2: them to a grid, So like that was a huge

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Speaker 2: revolutionary moment in hip hop.

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Speaker 1: What's MPC? Sorry, NPC is the multi?

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Speaker 2: What actually is it? A medi production center was what

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Speaker 2: it was originally called, and it was it's this thing

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Speaker 2: that it's like a it's like an interface. It's got

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Speaker 2: a sequencer, but it's got these pads on it that

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Speaker 2: you can drum live on. And Dyla was making the

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Speaker 2: early slum Village and a lot of those a lot

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Speaker 2: of his beats by drumming on it live and then

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Speaker 2: not squaring it to a grid, and so unlike normal

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Speaker 2: drum machine beats, it has like a human feel to it.

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Speaker 2: It's often referred to as the drunk Dilla feel because

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Speaker 2: Quwslov famously said, the first time you heard it, he

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Speaker 2: was like, is that a drunk toddler playing drums? Anyway,

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Speaker 2: I think you can trace a lot of this back

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Speaker 2: to sly Man, because this album is built on the

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Speaker 2: world's basic drum machine, and then it's got all these

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Speaker 2: organic grooves going over it. And you know, even people

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Speaker 2: like dirty projectors, like the way that they were doing

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Speaker 2: so much vocal hocketing, which I'll get into later. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's from this That's like you can trace that to

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Speaker 2: this record. And so it's just like learning more and

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Speaker 2: more about it. I was finally like, I need to

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Speaker 2: give this thing like a proper true deep dive, and

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Speaker 2: it is just like such a headphone narcotic masterpiece. You know.

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Speaker 2: I just did like the classic like huge headphones into

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Speaker 2: a chair like moment with it, and of course all

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Speaker 2: his other stuff whips. I mean, like it doesn't take

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Speaker 2: it much.

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Speaker 1: It's it.

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Speaker 2: This album is just so unique and weird that it's

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Speaker 2: it almost sounds like it came from a completely it's

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Speaker 2: like a completely different project. But that's what makes it

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Speaker 2: so cool in the context.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I love it, and I've come to

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Speaker 1: appreciate it, especially after working on this episode. But because

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Speaker 1: I so rigidly adhere to the utopian sixties dream, it's

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Speaker 1: probably not a huge shock to know that I prefer

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Speaker 1: his early stuff. I mean not to be that guy.

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Speaker 1: But as we'll touch on later, if you go all

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Speaker 1: the way back, there's actually some really cool gospel records

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Speaker 1: that he made with his brother and two sisters, yes,

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Speaker 1: when he was a literal child in the fifties, and

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Speaker 1: it came out on like seventy eights, So it's it's

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Speaker 1: pretty cool. Definitely track those down. We'll touch more on

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Speaker 1: that in a bit, but it's so wild when you

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Speaker 1: listen to those, because he's like, I don't know, maybe

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Speaker 1: seven or eight, nine years old, it was eleven. His

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Speaker 1: whole flow is already there in place age eleven, like

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Speaker 1: his old vocal style and mannerisms. It's really crazy. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he was very clearly a child prodigy of multiple instruments,

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Speaker 1: but it's rare to have something on record from somebody

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Speaker 1: who became so famous that.

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Speaker 2: Are just fully formed. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's so cool. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, he got a lot of that from the church,

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Speaker 2: just because, like I think when his family moved to Vallejo,

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Speaker 2: which we'll talk about, but it was not a racially

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Speaker 2: progressive part of California by any stretch, and so I

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Speaker 2: think he was just kind of locked down to the

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Speaker 2: church and people would just say, that's like he would

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Speaker 2: just kind of taught himself everything just hanging out there,

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Speaker 2: which is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And also I think I mentioned this a few

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Speaker 1: times on the show. For a while, I had a

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Speaker 1: sort of a sixties radio show in college, and then

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Speaker 1: I would DJ Soul nights out in Brooklyn, and it

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Speaker 1: was kind of then that I got to know Sly

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Speaker 1: as a producer because he has some bangers that pre

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Speaker 1: date The Family Stone. There's some solo stuff he did

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Speaker 1: which is amazing for Autumn Records, but also he produced

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Speaker 1: Bobby Freeman's Come On and Swim, which is just like

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Speaker 1: a deathless soul filthy songs. It's beautiful. It's an amazing

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Speaker 1: party song.

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Speaker 2: I also figured you would probably love that he did

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Speaker 2: production work for The Bowls.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're kind of an American answer to Mersey Beat,

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Speaker 1: but songs like laugh Laugh and just a little like

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Speaker 1: they go for like nineteen sixty five. It's pretty intense.

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Speaker 1: And that's all Sli's doing. But for me, my Sly

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Speaker 1: albums are Sly and the Family Stone albums, I should say,

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Speaker 1: of Choice or nineteen sixty nine Stand which has how

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Speaker 1: I Want to Take You Higher on it, and that

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Speaker 1: song Whips, But I think my favorite is nineteen sixty eight.

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Speaker 1: It's called Dance to the Music, and that's kind of

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Speaker 1: a No Skipps record for me, and I love how

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Speaker 1: he layers the instruments on the title track. He kind

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Speaker 1: of builds it up starting with the drums. They're gonna

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Speaker 1: add some bass guitar, Like that's a fun trick.

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Speaker 2: But then so he got that from Boom Doom Doom, Doom,

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Speaker 2: Doom Doom doom.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, tight, you be on the dreels. Yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I'm not sure. But the song that ends side

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Speaker 1: one is this twelve minute medley that is psychotic in

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Speaker 1: the best way. Even at that insane length, you don't

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Speaker 1: want it to end. It's swirly and weird and it

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Speaker 1: fits no structure at all. It's just a giant groove

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Speaker 1: with different sections of like I think everything that you

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Speaker 1: had just heard. It's basically like a weird, chopped and

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Speaker 1: screwed version of all the songs you'd heard on the

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Speaker 1: album up to that point, done in the psychedelic sized whirl.

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Speaker 1: It's great. Definitely check that out. I think it's just

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Speaker 1: called Dance to the medley, But this is all before

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Speaker 1: the darkness sets in and there's a riot going on

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Speaker 1: is dark. It's been commented upon that the fact that

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Speaker 1: Sly and Brian Wilson died days from one another is

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Speaker 1: fitting because both were self taught geniuses who revolutionized the

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Speaker 1: recording industry by writing, performing and producing their own music

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Speaker 1: before being sidelined by drug and meoultal health problems for

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Speaker 1: arguably the rest of their lives. You could, and right

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Speaker 1: now I will compare there was a riot going on

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Speaker 1: with Pet Sounds, because both are lonely, studio bound albums

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Speaker 1: by brilliant men who are losing control. Brian losing romantic

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Speaker 1: control and Pet Sounds and Sly is much more raw and.

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Speaker 2: Losing every control.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and they both had bands with their families, which

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Speaker 1: was not a psychologically good thing for either of them.

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Speaker 1: But this was music for an era when, as Sly

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Speaker 1: put it, the possibility of possibility was leaking out and

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Speaker 1: leaving America feeling drained. He always had a good way

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Speaker 1: with words to me. This album occupies the same psychic

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Speaker 1: space as the Beatles White Album or the Stones Excellent

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Speaker 1: on Main Street. It's this jagged, nightmarish vision of the

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Speaker 1: cultural landscape.

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Speaker 2: It's a feel Bad records.

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Speaker 1: It sounds very much yeah, oh yeah. I mean it's heavy,

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Speaker 1: it's desperate, it's relentless, and like all those aforementioned records,

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Speaker 1: it's brilliant.

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Speaker 2: So from Jesus, I should have filled these in.

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Speaker 1: Uh No, this is going to be our tribute to

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Speaker 1: the silent title track.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, instead of our usual thing. Here's four seconds

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Speaker 2: of silence to indicate that we're about to start Side

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Speaker 2: two of the podcast, Part one about there's a riot

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Speaker 2: going on, much like stallone. Sly Stone was born Sylvester,

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Speaker 2: although his last name was Stuart, on the IDEs of

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Speaker 2: March in nineteen forty one in Denton, Texas, sight of

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Speaker 2: my favorite one of my favorite Mountain Goats songs, the

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Speaker 2: best ever death metal band out of Denton. The family

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Speaker 2: relocated to Vallejo, California when sly was two, sight of

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Speaker 2: the first Zodiac murder.

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Speaker 1: Yep, exactly. I'm glad you mentioned that, because I was

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Speaker 1: going to.

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Speaker 2: I knew you were. And by the age of four,

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Speaker 2: sly was part of a gospel group with his siblings.

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Speaker 2: His first official recorded release was on the Battlefield for

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Speaker 2: My Lord with Walking in Jesus Name as the B

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Speaker 2: side and he sang lead, and he was eleven years old.

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Speaker 1: I might splice that in here. It is well worth

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Speaker 1: checking out. Oh I was walking around soon too.

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Speaker 2: M A jesus Is drafted.

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Speaker 1: Him in the service he could me.

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Speaker 2: He took me back.

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Speaker 1: I joined the Trisian band. You know that.

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Speaker 2: I'm all sly Who.

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Speaker 1: Apparently his nickname came when a classmate misspelled Sylvester as

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Speaker 1: Slyvester and the nickname stuck. He was very quickly recognized

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Speaker 1: as a musical prodigy. By age seven, he'd already developed

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Speaker 1: a strong command of the keyboard, and by eleven he'd

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Speaker 1: added bass, guitar and drums to his growing list of instruments.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as I mentioned briefly, for a Southern family relocating

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Speaker 2: to California, especially Vallejo, which is not quite the Sticks,

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Speaker 2: but it's certainly not San Francisco or Oakland, their biggest

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Speaker 2: social point was the church. And there was an interesting

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Speaker 2: bit of commentary in one of his oral histories by

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Speaker 2: Joel Selvin that basically he says that one of the

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Speaker 2: reasons Sly went so was so susceptible, I should say,

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Speaker 2: to like corrupting kind of street influences and like why

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Speaker 2: the kind of apparatus of cocaine addiction was so easy

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Speaker 2: for him to fall into and start hanging out with

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Speaker 2: bad people. Was because he was like not a bad kid.

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Speaker 2: He was a relatively well behaved, church going child who

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Speaker 2: was still nevertheless kind of fixated on those elements of

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Speaker 2: black life. In Vallejo, he like joined a gang, but

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Speaker 2: it was the only it wasn't like a real street gang.

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Speaker 2: I think the only reason they let him in was

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Speaker 2: because he was the only one.

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Speaker 1: In a car.

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Speaker 2: So there's like, there's there's a sort of element to

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Speaker 2: that of kind of wanting to be a little bit

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Speaker 2: more from the wrong side of the tracks than he

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Speaker 2: might have already been. And to that end, he managed

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Speaker 2: to find some success with music before he had even

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Speaker 2: left high school, with a band called the Viscaynes. What

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Speaker 2: does that mean, Jordan, Is that like Biscaynes.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Let's look.

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Speaker 2: They had a near hit with Yellow Moon. Sly was

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Speaker 2: the only black person in the group, and they made

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Speaker 2: appearances on local TV shows, but he didn't rest on

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Speaker 2: his laurels at the time. He was at nineteen, he wrote, produced,

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Speaker 2: and played on the aforementioned Bobby Freeman's Come On and Swim,

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Speaker 2: which ended up going gold, and he used the money

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Speaker 2: to move his family out of Vallejo and into a

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Speaker 2: big house on the outskirts of San Francisco.

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Speaker 1: I'm just getting such a kick, imagic an era when

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Speaker 1: you can, you could do that.

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Speaker 2: You could buy your.

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Speaker 1: Parents a new house on the proceeds from one song

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Speaker 1: of a gold song. But Bobby Friedman's an interesting guy.

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Speaker 1: He's hailed as the first rock star of San Francisco

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Speaker 1: along before all the Hayde Ashbury Summer of Love acts.

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Speaker 1: His song do You Want To Dance was later a

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Speaker 1: hit for the Beach Boys and the Mama's on the Papas,

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Speaker 1: and in nineteen sixty four he played nightly at the

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Speaker 1: Condor Club in San Francisco's North Beach, home of Carol

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Speaker 1: Dodo's groundbreaking and of being serious topless go go dancing shows.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, I mean North Beach

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Speaker 2: is was the center of the beat. So it was

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Speaker 2: also where a lot of the jazz community was. Well,

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Speaker 2: I'm getting ahead of myself. I have a whole thing

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Speaker 2: in here about San Francisco. Damn it, Jordan, damn it.

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Speaker 1: We both contributed a lot to this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a true tag team. Another formative figure

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Speaker 2: and point of time in Stone's life around this time

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Speaker 2: was the year that he spent at Solano Community College

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Speaker 2: in Vallejo, where he studied music with a guy named

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Speaker 2: David Frolick or Furlicic. This seems like a minor detail

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Speaker 2: except for like, how much Sly loved this guy. He's

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Speaker 2: talked about him in multiple interviews, He's thanked in the

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Speaker 2: liner notes of different records, and though Sly at this point,

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Speaker 2: as you mentioned, was proficient on a couple of different instruments,

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Speaker 2: he thanked Frolich at length in his autobiography What did

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Speaker 2: I learn from him? Everything? We did ear training, which

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Speaker 2: taught us to recognize chords, scales, intervals, and rhythms. Then

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Speaker 2: we went deeper reading Walter Piston books like Harmony, Counterpoint,

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Speaker 2: and Orchestration. Orchestration was almost six hundred pages filled with

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Speaker 2: big ideas. Walter Piston was a New York composer and

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Speaker 2: educator who authored a bunch of books on this and

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Speaker 2: I think he was one of his early Among his

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Speaker 2: students were possibly Leonard Bernstein and Aaron Kope. I think

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Speaker 2: Orchestration was almost six hundred pages filled with big ideas, cadences,

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Speaker 2: irregular resolutions, raised supertonics. Above all, I learned how to learn.

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Speaker 2: I could get lost in the reading, but mister Frolic

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Speaker 2: led me out. Take Piston's explanation of counterpoint. The art

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Speaker 2: of counterpoint is the art of combining melodic lines. The

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Speaker 2: contrapuntal essence as an ingredient of inner vitality in music is, however,

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Speaker 2: something deeper than a process of manipulation and combination. Most

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Speaker 2: music is to some degree contrapuntal. That was like walking

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Speaker 2: through branches at night. But when mister Frolic explained it,

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Speaker 2: it was clear, skies. I could see the melodic lines,

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Speaker 2: watch them intertwine. Music. Education is important people.

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Speaker 1: That's very cool. Well, in the early sixties, Slides started

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Speaker 1: djaying for a local radio station K Soul.

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Speaker 2: Which was not originally named that. They were just calling

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Speaker 2: it ksol, And then when they hired him, he started

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Speaker 2: pushing it more in this direction of soul music and

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Speaker 2: R and B, and basically coined it as K Soul.

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize that that's cool. He also worked with

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Speaker 1: Billy Preston on an album called The Wildest Organ Phrasing.

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Speaker 1: It's a great album, actually, Billy Preston, I'm legally obligated

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00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,040
Speaker 1: to mention later went on to play with the Beatles

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Speaker 1: during the Let It Be sessions. During the same period,

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Speaker 1: sly worked as a staff record producer for Autumn Records,

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Speaker 1: producing for predominantly white San Francisco area bands like the

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Speaker 1: aforementioned Bo Brummels, The Mojo Men, who are like garage rock.

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Speaker 1: I think they have a track on the Nuggets box set,

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Speaker 1: Bobby Freeman, who he mentioned earlier, and Grace Slick of

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Speaker 1: the Jefferson Airplanes first band, the Great Society. He put

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Speaker 1: Gray Slick through fifty takes of their song Free Advice,

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Speaker 1: which is an early example of his autocratic recording practices.

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Speaker 1: He also played keyboard for major stars coming through town,

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Speaker 1: like Dion Warwick, who we saw in the Bay Area

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Speaker 1: together the Righteous Brothers. Kind imagine if Slyestone had played

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Speaker 1: keyboards for ninety something year old Off Warwick.

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Speaker 2: We saw, I truly cannot cannot. I cannot, I simply cannot.

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Speaker 2: I lack the powers of imagination.

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Speaker 1: The Righteous Brothers, Marvin Gay, as well as at least

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Speaker 1: one of the three Twist Party concerts for then chart

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Speaker 1: top or Chubby Checker held at the Cow Palace, yea

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Speaker 1: in San Francisco in nineteen sixty two and nineteen sixty three.

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Speaker 1: Is it is the Cow Palace still there?

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Speaker 2: I don't think so, or if it is.

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Speaker 1: It's not like a concert venue anymore, because everybody who

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Speaker 1: came through San Francisco in the sixties played there.

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Speaker 2: No, it is it is, I was, I was wrong.

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Speaker 2: It's in Daily City. It's like that's like the ass

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Speaker 2: end of San Francisco. It's like South San Francisco. So

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Speaker 2: it's actually quite funny. It's literally on the border. So

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Speaker 2: half the like a portion of the parking lot is

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Speaker 2: in San Francisco and the rest of it's in Daily City.

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Speaker 2: But it's called the Cow Palace because it was the

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Speaker 2: state livestock pavilion.

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Speaker 1: That can't have spelled nice to perform in.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think they I don't think it was. They

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Speaker 2: were temporary of each other. Well, concurrent, I think is

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Speaker 2: maybe what I wanted to say there.

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Speaker 1: I thought I remember there be in some account, might

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Speaker 1: even the rolling stones seem the kind of the thing

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Speaker 1: the rolling stones that get stuck with where it was

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Speaker 1: like some hot summer and they were playing there and

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Speaker 1: like a like some kind of livestock convention had just vacated,

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Speaker 1: and you could you could like tell.

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Speaker 2: Oh, okay.

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Speaker 1: Well, by nineteen sixty six, Sly, after cutting his teeth

407
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Speaker 1: ejang and producing other bands, was starting to play in

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Speaker 1: his own band. I can't believe this was what they

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Speaker 1: were called Sly in the Stoners. Okay, by nineteen sixty

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Speaker 1: six they probably knew what that meant.

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Speaker 2: Then, I'm guessing, yeah, I venture against Okay.

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Speaker 1: This included Cynthia Robinson on trumpet, who was later featured

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Speaker 1: quite prominently in Sly and the Family Stone. Meanwhile, Sly's

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Speaker 1: brother Freddie had a band called Freddie and the Stone Souls,

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Speaker 1: with drummer Greg Rico and saxophonist. Saxophonist, you love what

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Speaker 1: I say that I heard doctor Waters in a Big four.

417
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Speaker 2: Because he's British, he would say. He also says aluminimum

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Speaker 2: and raccoon.

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Speaker 1: You know what's the second one?

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Speaker 2: Raccoon? What's that raccoon? Hear the difference?

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00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 1: No, raccoon, raccoon, raccoon. That's a very subtle one. Okay, Okay,

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Speaker 1: sax player, there are you happy? Jerry Martini, who later

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Speaker 1: went on to be and Sly in the Family Stone

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Speaker 1: Bassist Larry Graham was added to the fold. Much more

425
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Speaker 1: on him later, as well as pianist Rosie Stone, who's

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Speaker 1: sly In Freddy's sister, and with that sly In, the

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Speaker 1: family Stone solidified. It's a lineup.

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Speaker 2: I think they were cousins too.

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Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think that comes up in

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Speaker 1: here later.

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00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:46,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Larry's cousins with somebody. It gets murky. It

432
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 2: can't be overstated how big it was for signing the

433
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 2: Family Stone to exist in the Bay Area in the

434
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 2: mid sixties, because for all of the hippies utopian talk

435
00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 2: of like post racial society and the glee with which

436
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 2: they Pilford Black traditions for their own gain, they were

437
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,399
Speaker 2: mostly all white bands, and the bands that were progressive

438
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 2: had just white women in them imitating black people mostly. Yeah,

439
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,159
Speaker 2: the Big Three, Grateful Dead, Jefferson, Airplane, Janis Joplin all

440
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 2: white folks. So first Slies band to have Greg Erico

441
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:26,159
Speaker 2: and Jerry Martini and Robertson and Rose interracial, intergender. That

442
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 2: was huge, and especially when you consider San Francisco's issues

443
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 2: at the time, which I wouldn't then get into. Martini said,

444
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 2: I just love the fact that guy's name is Jerry Martini.

445
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 2: Jerry Martini said it was deliberate. He told me about

446
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 2: it before we even started the band. He intentionally wanted

447
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 2: a white drummer. There was a pot full of black

448
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 2: drummers that could kick Greg. Yeah, that could kick Greg

449
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 2: Erico's ass, and there was a lot of black saxophone

450
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 2: players that could kick mine. So I knew exactly what

451
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:57,199
Speaker 2: he was doing. Boys, girls, black, white. And this is

452
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,479
Speaker 2: laudable for him because San Francisco has historically not been

453
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 2: very cool to black people. As of the twenty nineteen census,

454
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 2: the percentage of black people in the population was down

455
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 2: to just under six percent, down from thirteen point four

456
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy.

457
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,680
Speaker 1: That's crazy wow. Yeah.

458
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 2: And black people have been an overlooked part of this

459
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,360
Speaker 2: city's history from the very beginning. There were black people

460
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,439
Speaker 2: who arrived from Mexico thanks to the Spanish, and a

461
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 2: few of these people were very wealthy. Juana Briones di Miranda,

462
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: a businesswoman of mixed race ancestry, is considered the founding

463
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,919
Speaker 2: mother of San Francisco. She was an early settler of

464
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 2: the land but it was still known as Yerba Buena

465
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 2: and an Africribbean entrepreneur named William Alexander leidisurf. It was

466
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 2: one of the people who just helped build San Francisco

467
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 2: period as legitimate city. Black people arrived in greater numbers

468
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: in San Francisco during the Gold Rush and the first

469
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 2: and second great migrations of black people from the South

470
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,640
Speaker 2: following first the Civil War and then second World War two.

471
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 2: And when the gold Rush ended, facing considerable discrimination, black

472
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 2: people moved into the service sector hotel workers, restaurant workers, this,

473
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 2: that and the other, but they were still discriminated against.

474
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 2: I mean, there's an instance of one of the most

475
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 2: famous hotels in San Francisco at one point just smarily

476
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 2: fired all of them and went with an all white

477
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 2: staff because the unions were controlled by white people, which

478
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 2: is a theme that will repeat itself. But there was

479
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 2: actually even this early on, there were still like havens

480
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 2: for black people in the city. They call it the

481
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 2: Barbary Coast era, which is like just sort of what

482
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 2: the region was called for a time before it had

483
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 2: an official name. There was a place called Terrific Street,

484
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 2: which is a great name for an entertainment district. Is

485
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,120
Speaker 2: actually located on Pacific Street in North Beach, which, as

486
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier, was a big nightlife jazz hotspot. There

487
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 2: were some of the first ever strip clubs there and

488
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 2: it became the Beats kind of social center around City

489
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 2: Lights Bookstore in the fifties. So Terrific Street was actually

490
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 2: Pacific Street, and it was famous for having a bunch

491
00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 2: of black and Tan clubs as they were called, which

492
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 2: explicitly catered to interracial audiences in a way that, like

493
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 2: I guess, legitimate clubs could not be called themselves inter racial.

494
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 2: If you ran a quote black and tan club, you

495
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 2: were okay with that. And Jelly Roll Morton, who claims

496
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 2: to have invented jazz, your mileage may vary, opened a

497
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 2: club on Terrific Street in nineteen seventeen. And so World

498
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 2: War two drew a lot of black people to the

499
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 2: city as well. The War Manpower Commission hired a boatload

500
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 2: of Southern workers for the naval docks which were located

501
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 2: in Hunter's Point. Actually, the housing that was constructed for

502
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 2: those workers working at the dockyards is now a notorious slum.

503
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 2: As happens, so between the years of nineteen forty nineteen fifty,

504
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 2: black people in San Francisco went from being a half

505
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 2: percent of the city's total population to four and a

506
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 2: half percent. And actually, the black population of the city

507
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 2: were direct beneficiaries of another horribly shameful part of San

508
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 2: Francisco in California and American history. The Japanese and Tournament

509
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 2: of Night teen forty two left a large number of

510
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,959
Speaker 2: unoccupied homes and businesses in the Fillmore district, which quickly

511
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 2: became the focal point of black life and black entertainment

512
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: in San Francisco. Eda James started her career singing in

513
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,479
Speaker 2: the Filmore in nineteen fifties and it became known as

514
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 2: such a hotspot it was referred to as the Harlem

515
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 2: of the West. And so if you go back to

516
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 2: all of these like mid century jazz stars, almost every

517
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 2: single one of them has a live in San Francisco album.

518
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 2: And of course this could not last. The city's majority

519
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 2: Italian and Irish American populations were notoriously racist, and they

520
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 2: were the power behind the labor unions at the time.

521
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 2: Black people also faced housing discrimination, which got elevated to

522
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 2: the national spotlight in nineteen fifty seven when San Francisco

523
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 2: Giants baseball legend Willie Mays attempted to buy a home

524
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 2: in San Francis Wood, which was a tony planned community,

525
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 2: and he was refused because of his race. Then the

526
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 2: real villain of the story steps in, which is an

527
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 2: organization called the San Francisco Redevelopment Agency that was founded

528
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 2: in nineteen forty eight and did not shudder until twenty twelve,

529
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 2: and they were basically in bed with all the local

530
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 2: real estate power and real estate magnates. Between nineteen forty

531
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 2: eight and nineteen seventy six, they demolished over fourteen thousand

532
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 2: housing units in San Francisco on the grounds of slum

533
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 2: clearance and urban blight. The sketchy part, as if that

534
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 2: wasn't bad enough, was that the SFRA issued thousands of

535
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 2: certificates of preference to anyone who they displaced, essentially, which

536
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 2: are documents that they could then return to and say, hey,

537
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 2: we were here, you guys kicked us out, so we

538
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 2: get first DIBs at new housing. Allegedly, of the eight

539
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: hundred and eighty three certificates given to black owned businesses,

540
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 2: only thirty nine resulted in legitimate business relocations. Of the

541
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: four seven hundred nineteen certificates given to families, only just

542
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 2: under eleven hundred put families in other homes. So nineteen

543
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 2: sixty nine, after about twenty years this residents of the

544
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 2: South of Market neighborhood created the Tenants and Owners in

545
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 2: opposition to redevelopment. This is a group that charged the

546
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 2: SFRA for not fulfilling its promise of finding affordable housing

547
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 2: for its displaced residents. This was brought all the way

548
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 2: up to the Federal District Court and they ruled against

549
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 2: the Redevelopment Agency. They ruled in favor of the Renters Union,

550
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 2: which was like a weird landmark in history where a

551
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 2: federal judge cited against the Department of Housing and Urban Development.

552
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 2: But did you think that the story would be complete

553
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 2: without a cartoonishly evil statement from a white guy.

554
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: No.

555
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy, Justin Herman, executive director of the San

556
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 2: Francisco Redevelopment Agency, said about the South of Market neighborhood,

557
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 2: this land is too valuable to permit poor people to

558
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 2: park on it.

559
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: Oh wow.

560
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 2: He even got a park named after him, which they

561
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 2: thankfully renamed in twenty seventeen. So that's a lot of information.

562
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 2: But this is all the backdrop against which sly Stone purposefully,

563
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 2: willfully formed an interracial intergender ban and became huge local

564
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 2: stars with that. In this context, Questlove, who produced the

565
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 2: film The Burden of Black Genius, focusing on Sly, said,

566
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 2: I feel like the Bay Area alone shaped Sly's boldness,

567
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 2: his brazenness in terms of not having the fear of

568
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 2: trying something so utterly radical like this intersexual, interracial band.

569
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 2: Without that boldness, he wouldn't have had the legion of

570
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 2: followers that he had.

571
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: What do you make of that, well said Questlove, And

572
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: well said Heigel film.

573
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 2: Or is real sad man? I mean, well, everything in

574
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 2: San Francisco is gentrified. But like you know, the whole

575
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 2: reason that Bill Graham was able to open up there

576
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 2: was because it was not valuable real estate anymore by

577
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 2: that point. Same with Jim Jones and opening the People's

578
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 2: Temple there.

579
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean he catered to I mean, I guess

580
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: they both cater to disenfranchise people in a very different ways.

581
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, yeah, Jim Jones was purposely like targeting

582
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 2: black people, but that was because of his own racial

583
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 2: hang ups, as we will discuss, maybe never, because it's

584
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 2: so so sad, it's real bad.

585
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, speaking of White Devils, Clive Davis, Clive Davis, everyone.

586
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 2: Clive Davis signed Slide in the band after a tepidly

587
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 2: received debut album, A Whole New Thing in nineteen sixty seven.

588
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 2: They did a lot of touring. They hit Las Vegas

589
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 2: for residency.

590
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: You know who loved that tepidly received first album. Who's

591
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: that Tony Bennett. That's Tony Bennett, another legend of San Francisco,

592
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: if only for that song.

593
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 2: Oh, trust me, we count that.

594
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: Oh you count that? Okay? Good? Yeah? I think it's

595
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: for the Bronx though, so we count that too.

596
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

597
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: Clive Davis supposedly pushed Slide to write with an eye

598
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: on the pop charts, which resulted in the band's first

599
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: hit single, Danced to the Music. Love that song It's

600
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: later the title track on their nineteen sixty eight second album.

601
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: With Davis in mind, sly worked on a new approach

602
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: to the band's music. Each lead singer in the band

603
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: shared vocals by either singing them in unison or taking

604
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: turns singing bars of each verse with scat vocals and

605
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: instrumental solos. I'm interested in his take or even exposure

606
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: to the band. The bands because that seems like something

607
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: that they did all.

608
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's a great question. I think the simplest

609
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 2: explanation that I can give is that that idea of

610
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 2: like loose harmony singing exists in every culture, you know,

611
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 2: and as we'll mention, some of the techniques that SLI

612
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 2: used are even like pre civilization period, you know. And

613
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 2: the thing that was so cool about the band is

614
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 2: that they were both coming at it from this aspect

615
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 2: of like, oh, we love the impressions and we love

616
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 2: you know, soul music and everything, but they were also

617
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 2: coming from it as like hillbillies playing like bluegrass and

618
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 2: you know, folk music and church music and white church music.

619
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 2: I should specify, and not that one's better than the other,

620
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 2: even though we all think in it. But yeah, so

621
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: I don't know that. I don't know that that's explicitly

622
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 2: a thing, but it would be cool if it was

623
00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 2: that they just like heard a lot, cool if they did.

624
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: So.

625
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 2: The band hated this, however, Jerry Martini says in The

626
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 2: sly Stone Oral History by Joel Selvin, so I hated

627
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 2: this formula. He just did it to sell records. The

628
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 2: whole album was called Dance to the Music Dance to

629
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 2: the Medley Danced to the Schmedley. It was so unhipped

630
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: to us. The beats were glorified motown beats.

631
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: It's like my favorite part of that album. That breaks

632
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: my heart. I love that. I love the Medley. Actually,

633
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: I thought it was like unintentionally groundbreaking thing because it

634
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: was like almost variations on a theme, which I thought

635
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: was really cool, which I mean, I'm sorry I should

636
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: probably say this with the pet Sounds episode, but that's

637
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: kind of the way Brian Wilson was working in this

638
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: period too. Their outtakes for things that he never finished,

639
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: and I think there's some outtakes with something Slide did too,

640
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: which had been stitched together into these ten minute tracks

641
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: which are all wildly different reworkings of the same simple theme.

642
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: And it's the way that a classical composer would work.

643
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: It's really really fascinating stuff. But as much as the

644
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: family Stone disliked it, the single Dance to the Music

645
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: was a huge influence on the music industry, which labeled

646
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: this new sound psychedelic soul. Artists like The Temptations directly

647
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: responded with songs like their Grammy winning Cloud nine and

648
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: maybe Ball of Confusion, and then there are other artists

649
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: like the Fifth Dimension in War turning out Sly esque

650
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: material and copying the band's style. And as you know,

651
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: even Parliament Funkadelic was influenced by the band's fashion sense,

652
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: which was dictated by Sly. George Clinton and Sly were friendly,

653
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: or at least drug buddies. Yeah, they scored smack together

654
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 1: in a Denny's parking lot, only to immediately get busted

655
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: because everyone was like, hey, sly Stone and George Clinton

656
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: are in a Denny's parking lot. They're probably doing a

657
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: drug deal. Yeah, zo way where you were gonna ask

658
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:50,479
Speaker 1: me something before?

659
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, what's your take on the whole kind of

660
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 2: psychedelic soul thing. I think it's one of those genres

661
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,879
Speaker 2: that gets brought up and then everyone's like, oh yeah,

662
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 2: it's that Chambers Brothers song, and then there's like many

663
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 2: other exact samples of it. I'm asking you as a

664
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 2: soul specialist, especially from stuff like around this era.

665
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I like some of it. I think it's

666
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 1: a I'm gonna choose my words really carefully here. I

667
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: think it's a rare instance of black musicians trying to

668
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: get in on a white sure sounds. Yeah, and because

669
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,439
Speaker 1: they're better musicians than a lot of the white people

670
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,879
Speaker 1: they're ripping off. It's a bit. It's just inherently better.

671
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: I mean there's like like Chubby Checker does a great version.

672
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: He had this weird psychedelic era, I say, psychedelic posts

673
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: the twist. Chubby Checker sure did a cover of back

674
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 1: of the USSR, which like, okay rips it's so good. Yeah,

675
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 1: it's weird. I mean we kind of talked about this

676
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 1: in the Satisfaction episode. I noticed reading covered Satisfaction, it

677
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: was like one of those black artists to cover a

678
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: song by a band that grew up worshiping them.

679
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 2: Basically, Yeah, it is really funny to think, like of

680
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: all the like psychedelic bands who were like like you

681
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 2: know great like and all these people who are like,

682
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 2: I've never sang, I'm never sang in front of a

683
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 2: live band before, and you get all these black guys

684
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 2: coming in who've been like, I've been playing on the

685
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 2: Chitlin circuit for years, I've survived stabbings like whatever you want,

686
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 2: you want me to do a psychedelic thing, now, great,

687
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 2: I got it. Roll the tape.

688
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to know more about the Fifth Dimension

689
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: because I actually don't know a lot about how much

690
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 1: they were, you know, a band versus a studio project

691
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: that was put together. I mean, they can all sing

692
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 1: their asses off, but they had you know, songs written

693
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: by Laura and Iro and songs from the The Hair

694
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: soundtrack and whatever, and all their backing I think was

695
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 1: done by the Wrecking Crew, which are the La stud musicians.

696
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 1: So yeah, I like a lot of that stuff. I

697
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 1: think Sly is probably the only one who really was

698
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: doing anything innovative, even though I like like the Chambers

699
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: Brothers and you know Time Has Coming Today is a

700
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 1: great song. And I'm sure there's probably other less famous

701
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: examples that I'm not thinking of right now, but he

702
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: is kind of the only one that Oh, well, Hendrix,

703
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: I guess, but a lot of that like swirly psychedelic

704
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: noodling stuff I wasn't as into as just him shredding

705
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: on blop. Yes.

706
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 2: Like Interestingly enough, the Fifth Dimension were like an exact

707
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: example of what we're talking about. They started in nineteen

708
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 2: sixty three as a jazz a jazz group called the

709
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,919
Speaker 2: High Fives, who opened for Ray Charles in nineteen sixty three.

710
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: Then they changed the name to the Vocals, and that

711
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 2: band broke up, and then they added more people and

712
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 2: that lineup that became the Fifth Dimension was called originally

713
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 2: called the Versatiles or the Versatiles.

714
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:38,760
Speaker 1: Interesting.

715
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 2: They recorded some motown songs as a demo tape and

716
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 2: they sent it to Barry Gordy, and Barry Gordy was like,

717
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 2: you sound great, but I don't hear a hit, and

718
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: so of all people, Johnny Rivers had just started a

719
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 2: label called Soul City Records and signed the group and

720
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 2: was like, you guys need a new name, and they

721
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 2: just went like the Fifth Dimension.

722
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: They're like, good, yeah, Jetter Rivers is great. Is even better.

723
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: Marylyn McCoo big crush on Marylyn McCoo as a kid,

724
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: probably the only kid grown up in the late nineties.

725
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 1: What a huge crush on Marylyn McCoo the Fifth Dimension?

726
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: But I did she was she the.

727
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 2: One who became She was one of them. Was a

728
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 2: beauty pageant like one of them was like almost Miss.

729
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 2: She hosted Solid Gold in the eighties. Oh Florence LaRue

730
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 2: and Marilyn McCoo both won the Grand Talent Award in

731
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 2: the annual Miss Bronze Beauty pageant.

732
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,359
Speaker 1: Miss Bronze almost.

733
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 2: Interesting, you've missim there anyway. So this new musical formula

734
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 2: struck big with the band's fourth album, nineteen sixty Nine's Stand,

735
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: which sold over three million copies. You know that song

736
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 2: from it Stand in the Place that You Live.

737
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:54,240
Speaker 1: God, that sucks. Sucks.

738
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 2: I fucking hate that song. Number of hit single, number

739
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 2: one hit single on Everyday People. And by the summer

740
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 2: of sixty nine, Slid and the Family Stone were on

741
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 2: top of the goddamn world deservedly, yes, exactly. The hot

742
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 2: Fun in the Summertime and the aforementioned thank you for

743
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 2: letting Me be mice Elf Again. Both of those were

744
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 2: top five singles, and they nailed the hat trick of

745
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 2: influential summer performances of nineteen sixty nine. They played Summer

746
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 2: Soul in Harlem, the Newport Jazz Festival, and then Woodstock,

747
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 2: which is pretty a pretty good run and.

748
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: Bonus points for missing Altamont. Yes, I think controversial take

749
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,439
Speaker 1: might be my favorite Woodstock performers. Oh sure, I mean,

750
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: like when he has higher that's incredible.

751
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's clearly never gotten over it. He like

752
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 2: devotes passages at length about it in his memoir of

753
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 2: just like that being the moment that he knew having

754
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 2: the crowd sing higher back to him, poor guy. One

755
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 2: major fan of this era was Miles Davis, who mentioned

756
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 2: twelve times in his own autobiography he probably didn't mention

757
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 2: his own mother twelve times. For Miles to think positively

758
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 2: of anyone was a huge feat, much less openly admit

759
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,919
Speaker 2: he was influenced by them. When I first heard Sly,

760
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 2: I almost wore out those first two or three records.

761
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 2: Dance to the music, Stan, Everybody's a Star. Davis's record

762
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,879
Speaker 2: On the Corner, which was one of his big after

763
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,399
Speaker 2: Bitch's Brew, which was like so experimental and a big

764
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 2: change for him. He doubled down on sort of the

765
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,800
Speaker 2: funk R and B textures and sound with On the Corner,

766
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 2: And when that record came out, people were just like, oh,

767
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 2: you ripped off sly dude. Miles also wanted to work

768
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: with Sly on a record, much like Miles just had

769
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 2: his finger on the pulse. I mean, he wanted to

770
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: collaborate with Jimmy Hendrix. He wanted to make a record

771
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,760
Speaker 2: with sly Stone, and all of these things were derailed

772
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 2: by drug addiction. Basically, which is so sad. He visited

773
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 2: Sly's home studio one point and wrote of the incident,

774
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 2: there were nothing but girls everywhere in coke, bodyguards with guns,

775
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 2: looking all evil. We sorted some coke together and that

776
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 2: was it. Another anecdote that has commonly come out from

777
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 2: their interaction was that Sly was so unnerved by the

778
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 2: like polytonal, like twentieth century harmony chords that Miles Davis

779
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 2: was playing him on his organ that he made him leave.

780
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 2: He was like, those are bad chords, man, that's bad.

781
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 2: Those are bad vibes.

782
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: Devil's interval. Yeah, you hear that story about how Miles

783
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: Davis and Jimmy Hendrix got together in London and then

784
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: they put in a call of Paul McCartney to play bass,

785
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 1: and they were going to try to record something together,

786
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: but Paul was like in his farm or something and

787
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: didn't get the message and it never happened.

788
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 2: Kind of makes them look bad that they didn't know

789
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:50,399
Speaker 2: any other black people in London. Kidding me, I mean

790
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 2: maybe they thought he would sell records, but yeah, surely

791
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 2: there was another bass player available. God imagine if they

792
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 2: called John, Paul Jones or any player who wasn't Paul.

793
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: They knew the pecking order, they knew who they had

794
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 1: to call pick the first. I think we following him

795
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,240
Speaker 1: and he wasn't home. We tried, we left a message

796
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: or they.

797
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 2: Were like after meeting each other, they were like, yeah,

798
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 2: there's too much dick swinging going on. We got to

799
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 2: find us someone we can bully, and naturally Paul came up.

800
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 2: I know someone who'd just be thrilled to let us

801
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 2: push him around respectfully to all involved except Paul.

802
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 1: Well Slide was also close with Jimmy Hendricks, and in

803
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 1: his twenty twenty three memoir he discussed how they were

804
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: supposed to hang out the night before he died and uh.

805
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 1: He also talked about Eda James asking him for money

806
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: for a plane flight and instead sly gave her a

807
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: Cadillac which he just bought, which is not really the

808
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: same thing, but but I appreciate the gesture. Unfortunately, she

809
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: got pulled over and when they ran the plates, they

810
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: determined that the car was stolen. So oh, not a

811
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 1: great not a great gesture.

812
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 2: No, no, but he uh, he at one point owned

813
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 2: like thirteen cars. He spent money like in this era,

814
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 2: I guess was going out of style.

815
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 1: Did you read his memoir?

816
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 2: I didn't because I heard that, Like what turned me

817
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 2: off of it was just all these people being like,

818
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 2: so he talks about how he got clean and like,

819
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:20,439
Speaker 2: he talks about all this then, but he still doesn't

820
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 2: really take a much responsibility for most of his no props.

821
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: It was actually really hard to read because it was

822
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,760
Speaker 1: very clear that the guy who ghost wrote it actually

823
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: the guy who ghost wrote his memoir, Ben Greenberg, sure

824
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: his name is, also ghost wrote Brian Wilson's, which I

825
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:45,320
Speaker 1: find interesting. Wow, Like he's very good at dialing.

826
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 2: In his way into stuff.

827
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: Oh, dialing in on the uh troubled sixties geniuses who

828
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 1: spent their later years as a recluse demographic.

829
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 2: It's a good beat.

830
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, I'm sure it pays well. But he

831
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 1: clearly had no leeway when it came to editorializing or

832
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 1: any sense of perspective. And as you said, there's zero

833
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 1: sense of remorse for anything that Sly does. There's no

834
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 1: like rock bottom moment at all. There's no like, you know,

835
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 1: I got to get my life together moment. And it

836
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 1: was just all told from Sly's point of view, and

837
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: Sly is a stubborn bastard. Sure yees to hear him

838
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: tell it. I thought of the Keith Richards quote I

839
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:25,800
Speaker 1: didn't have a problem with drugs, I had a problem

840
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: with cops. Like that was sort of like slis general

841
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: take here. There's a point in the book when he

842
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 1: says words to the effect of everyone felt like I

843
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 1: was two different people what I was using, but I

844
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 1: don't know what they're talking about. And you want to say, like,

845
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 1: you know, why do you think that was?

846
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:45,760
Speaker 2: What's so sad is that that is very much true.

847
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 2: And in reading the oral history that I did and

848
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 2: the thirty three and a third on this record, multiple

849
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,800
Speaker 2: people verbatim said that, yeah, I mean it.

850
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: He went from a mansion in Beverly Hills to an

851
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: RV that had to be parked outside of different friends houses,

852
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,879
Speaker 1: and he like that was just mentioned in passing. There

853
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 1: was no like how did I get here? Moment. But

854
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,720
Speaker 1: then he spends most of the book talking at length

855
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: about very specific thirty to forty year old magazine profiles

856
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: that he takes issue with.

857
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 2: So I don't know, love a score settler.

858
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, but yeah, even until like the end of

859
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,399
Speaker 1: his life, he would go and see doctors and I'm

860
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: talking in like the twenty tens, and like, yeah, if

861
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 1: you don't stop using crack, you're gonna die. And then

862
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 1: he was like, I know, I disagree, Yeah, respectfully or

863
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: disrespectfully disagree. I think he eventually did get clean in

864
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen.

865
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 2: Twenty nineteen was what I heard, largely thanks to one

866
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 2: woman whose name is escaping.

867
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 1: Man, who I think he lived. Maybe I'm wrong. I

868
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 1: think he lived out in front of her house in

869
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 1: his RV. I think she let him park his RV. There.

870
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 2: Should we segue into our slide hour sly stories.

871
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 1: I don't really know if I have any sly stories.

872
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 2: Oh, okay. As mentioned in the intro slies, drug issues

873
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 2: are well known, like basically every musician in the fifties

874
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,800
Speaker 2: and sixties and a lot of writers and blue collar

875
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:15,439
Speaker 2: workers and housewives. And it was a speedy time for America. Yes,

876
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 2: so he was doing the classic uppers to perform, downers

877
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 2: to sleep routine, pioneered by Hollywood and tested on their

878
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 2: most promising child stars. However, cocaine turned into his real problem,

879
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 2: and by the end of nineteen sixty nine, which I

880
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 2: feel is early in his particular, drugs history. He had

881
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,720
Speaker 2: added PCP to that, which is not really a drug

882
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 2: that anyone has ever had anything nice to say about.

883
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 1: No, no, no, Yeah, there is a poignant moment for

884
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:43,720
Speaker 1: all I just said about his memoir in that book

885
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 1: when he talks about a fan coming up to him

886
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 1: at an airport and she's all, you know, going in

887
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: a full fan meltdown, load and tears and tell him

888
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 1: what she loves him. And then she hugs him and

889
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 1: whispers in his ear, you got to get your sh together,

890
00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: which is like hard to hear from somebody in that dynamic.

891
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

892
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: Another time his mobile home was repossessed and his friends

893
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: gave him money to get it back, and he didn't

894
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: use that money to get it back. There was a

895
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 1: time when he was freebasing cocaine and blew up his

896
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 1: bathroom allah his friends Richard Pryor, as he writes, noise, light, fire,

897
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: everything time stopped for a second. Then the place was

898
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 1: choked up with smoke, except for one spot over me

899
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 1: that was clear like a halo. I just stared up

900
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: at it was I being saved, singled out. I took

901
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 1: a breath and looked around. I couldn't see how to

902
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:34,280
Speaker 1: get to the door. Hey, I hollered, Hey, I've always

903
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 1: came back, come through here. I ran towards the voice

904
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,359
Speaker 1: as fast as I could. As I got to the door,

905
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: I hit my head so hard on the corner of

906
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 1: the frame that I still have a knot. I was

907
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: glad that was all I got. Just always unrepentant about

908
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 1: this stuff.

909
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

910
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 1: In the eighties, Michael Jackson purchased his song rights and

911
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: he offered to either sell or, in some version of

912
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: the story, give them back to Sly on the condition

913
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 1: that he got clean. But Sly basically told him to

914
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: go to hell.

915
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean so, I guess the goodest place is

916
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 2: anything you can punch into it. When I was a

917
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 2: People magazine, I spent when when it was first heard

918
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 2: that this campaign was mounting to get his songwrits back

919
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:16,280
Speaker 2: to him, which obviously would have made a huge difference

920
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 2: in his quality of life, et cetera. I started working

921
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 2: it and I did an obscene amount of interviews with

922
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 2: like it had to have been like two to three

923
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 2: hours at points, with his legal team.

924
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: I've never heard this.

925
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, his his the first to the league guy on

926
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 2: the case, and then the and then like they made

927
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:37,240
Speaker 2: me and that was like an hour and a half

928
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 2: and then he like talking about all the legal ins

929
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 2: and outs and precedents of this case. And then then

930
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 2: they he conferenced me in with the rest of the

931
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 2: team and I just sat there for like forty five

932
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 2: minutes listening to them all kind of cross talk, and

933
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 2: obviously I don't care about the lawyers. I wanted to

934
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 2: talk to Sly. Yeah, So the culmination of all this,

935
00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:01,760
Speaker 2: at the end of this last interminable call, I was like, Hey, cool, guys,

936
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 2: this is great, Thank you so much. I think I

937
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,799
Speaker 2: got everything I need from the sort of legal end

938
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 2: of this, and you know, obviously I can email you

939
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 2: more questions. Do you think I'd be able to talk

940
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 2: to Sly about this at any point? And there was

941
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 2: a long awkward pause and then the main lawyer said,

942
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 2: we don't know where he is, and that was the

943
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 2: end of that experience for me. But like, and then

944
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 2: it was just a very awkward silence that followed, because

945
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 2: you know, what do you say to that, Yeah, what

946
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 2: are you going to get how are you going to

947
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 2: get him his money? Man?

948
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: What do you like?

949
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,240
Speaker 2: So eventually they found.

950
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 1: Him or I'll see was this when he was he was.

951
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 2: In an RV. Yeah, down by the river. No, I

952
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 2: mean legitimately, I think he was like he was partly

953
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 2: down in skid row in like La and actually living

954
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 2: by the river. But yes, there's that, there's that partly bit.

955
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was getting cracked from members of the Bloods,

956
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 1: I believe, And so with this woman whose house he

957
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 1: lived out in front of for a long time, who

958
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 1: he credits with getting and clean, would literally chase off

959
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 1: these gang members who were there to sell him drugs.

960
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:06,280
Speaker 2: That's wild.

961
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I did not get anywhere near as far

962
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: as you did. When I tried to interview him when

963
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: his memoir came out a couple of years ago, it

964
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 1: was immediately like, nope, sorry, he's not speaking especially to you, cracker. Yeah,

965
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 1: I can hear by Tony your email you're white as

966
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 1: the day is long. But there is a great profile

967
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: that was published in the Guardian I think around this time.

968
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 1: I think it was an email interview by the great

969
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 1: music journalist Alexis Patritis, and he has this great line

970
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,320
Speaker 1: that I liked. Some people thought his behavioral was admirable.

971
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 1: A black artist demanding agency and an industry built on

972
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 1: denying black artists agency some people just thought he was

973
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 1: unbearably arrogant. I am who I am when I am it,

974
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 1: sly shrugged at one Rolling Stone reporter as he told

975
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 1: me I never lived a life I didn't want to live.

976
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: I thought that was a cool line.

977
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 2: Powerful powerful, like just a refusal to blink in the

978
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 2: eye of it, or just nuclear grade self delusion.

979
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 1: Two things can be true at the same time. I

980
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 1: know it's because we worked in this realm for a

981
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 1: long time, but I do want to share this kind

982
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:17,240
Speaker 1: of funny, behind the scenes story from this journalist Alexis

983
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 1: Protitis about the lengths that he went to to get

984
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 1: an interview with sly Stone. This would have been back

985
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,280
Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen. He said, it was around the release

986
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,760
Speaker 1: of Hire, a lavish retrospective box set, and it remains

987
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: the weirdest experience of my journalistic career. Negotiations to bring

988
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 1: Slide to the phone went on for weeks. I called

989
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: repeatedly at the appointed times, to be met by an

990
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 1: answering machine. You called, or did you? We'll call back,

991
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: it said, with no option to leave a message. Eventually,

992
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 1: Slide picked up the phone and literally told me to

993
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 1: pick off. He wouldn't do an interview unless he was

994
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: paid in advance, which I should say most places, or

995
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 1: at least people in any place I've worked for you

996
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 1: do not pay for interviews. No, after further negotiations, I

997
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 1: tried again. He spoke for twenty minutes, told me he

998
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: wanted to form a new band made up of musicians

999
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 1: with albinism, which would quote neutralize all the different racial problems.

1000
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,359
Speaker 1: Then excuse himself to go to the toilet. You asked

1001
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 1: me about regrets. He said, if I don't take a

1002
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 1: big right now, I'll regret that.

1003
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 2: I do remember that quote. Actually, yes.

1004
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 1: Shortly afterwards, his archivist called me. Sly wanted to know

1005
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:24,319
Speaker 1: if I knew the British royal family, as he had

1006
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:26,800
Speaker 1: a plan to earn money teaching music to their children.

1007
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 1: I mean, sure I would.

1008
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:35,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd leave my children with slyestone as you meditate

1009
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 2: on that, we'll be right back with more. Too much

1010
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,720
Speaker 2: information after these messages.

1011
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,800
Speaker 1: So the main takeaway here is Sly had some issues

1012
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:00,120
Speaker 1: with drugs. So back back to nineteen seventy, Back to

1013
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 1: to Sly reaching his apex and the way.

1014
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:09,360
Speaker 2: So far. It didn't take long for these habits to

1015
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 2: start impacting the band's fortunes. It took months. In fact,

1016
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 2: after their landmark nineteen sixty nine, Sly and the Family

1017
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 2: Stone missed out twenty six of the eighty dates they

1018
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 2: booked that year. This also extended to the studio label execs.

1019
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 2: Stephen Paley has said that Sly would book studios and

1020
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 2: not show up, which definitely precipitated the label's interest in

1021
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 2: setting him up to record at home. Sly also faced

1022
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 2: another problem in that nineteen sixty eight had happened, which

1023
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 2: did considerable damage to his Summer of Love ideals. The

1024
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 2: Black Panthers, who must be said started in Oakland, across

1025
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 2: the Bay from San Francisco, were among the voices that

1026
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:53,760
Speaker 2: placed pressure on Sly to abandon his vision and embrace

1027
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 2: a more pro black stance. According to manager David Kropollock,

1028
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 2: who doesn't really he come off that great. He basically

1029
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,439
Speaker 2: talks about like, yes I did a bunch of coke,

1030
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 2: and yes I descended into drugs, but it was just

1031
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:11,359
Speaker 2: because of how cool Sly was Anyway, he says. Jerry

1032
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 2: Martini is the one who told me that in Boston,

1033
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,479
Speaker 2: some Black Panther members tried to get Slide to drop

1034
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 2: me get rid of Whitey, get rid of the devil.

1035
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 2: He wouldn't hear of it.

1036
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 1: Boston's not a good place to have that conversation.

1037
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 2: Well played. Slier used wore a star of David around

1038
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 2: his neck, which many people believed was his tribute to

1039
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 2: this his David Kropolic as Jewish manager in the early years.

1040
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 2: But Sly's concession to these ideas at least, well, he

1041
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:38,880
Speaker 2: didn't convert. It wasn't a Sammy Davis thing. It was

1042
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 2: just he was wearing a star of David anyway. Sly

1043
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 2: didn't turn a deaf ear to some of these developments,

1044
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 2: though the original title for Riot was Africa Talks to You,

1045
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 2: which is a reference in its track titles. One more

1046
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 2: heartwarming anecdote about Sly's championing of his White Devil buddies.

1047
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 2: When the band played the Apollo in nineteen sixty nine,

1048
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 2: they entered with their usual routine. Greg Erico starts on drums,

1049
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 2: rest of the band joins one by one. Fortunately, greg

1050
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 2: Erico was Italian and therefore dark enough to pass for biracial,

1051
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 2: and when Jerry Martini came on stage, the whole Apollo

1052
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 2: started booing him and Sly had to come out on

1053
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,800
Speaker 2: stage interrupt this whole rotune and explain to the audience

1054
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 2: that Martini might be white, but he was also a

1055
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 2: great saxophone player, and if they wanted Sly in the

1056
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:28,960
Speaker 2: family Stone, they wanted both black and white musicians. And

1057
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,839
Speaker 2: a woman in the audience supposedly shouted out, all right,

1058
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 2: send him out here, and the tension was diffuse, And

1059
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:41,240
Speaker 2: amid all of this, the label was also on Stone

1060
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:45,319
Speaker 2: for that sweet sweet product. He said in October of

1061
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:49,399
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine, the record company wants another LP by February.

1062
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 2: This is important to note that they'd put out four

1063
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 2: records in three years. I think at that point the

1064
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 2: early one then.

1065
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 1: That's the music there was. Life was the third one, Yeah,

1066
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 1: also in sixty eight, and then Stand with sixty nine.

1067
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:04,919
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's just four and two years.

1068
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they wanted another one by seventy February of

1069
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 2: the following year. He said, we could do some good songs,

1070
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,320
Speaker 2: but that would just be another LP. Now you expect

1071
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 2: a group to come out with another LP in another

1072
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 2: There's got to be more to it, but what can

1073
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 2: you do? So as a stopgap, the group released three

1074
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:23,319
Speaker 2: singles Thank You, Everybody Is a Star and Hot Fun

1075
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 2: in the Summertime, and these were lumped into nineteen seventy's

1076
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 2: Greatest Hits Album, which was a stopgap measure released in

1077
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy when it became very clear that Slide was

1078
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 2: going to blow several deadlines.

1079
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 1: That's a hilarious move to release a greatest Hits album

1080
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: for a band like.

1081
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 2: Three years after they s Yeah, making top.

1082
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 1: Tens for two years, that's insane. And it's also because

1083
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 1: of Spotify and streaming services. Artists in the last ten

1084
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 1: years don't have greatest Hits albums anymore. That think of

1085
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:54,279
Speaker 1: like Taylor Swift that mean the Greatest Hits album or

1086
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 1: Billie Eilish or something. Yeah, I think they're just going

1087
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 1: to die out, which you know, I find kind of sad,

1088
00:56:59,600 --> 00:56:59,799
Speaker 1: I do.

1089
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 2: Man, Like you know when you're like a I mean,

1090
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:04,440
Speaker 2: this is now a point in time that is no

1091
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 2: longer relevant, But when like I was a kid and

1092
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:10,360
Speaker 2: I didn't know anything about any of these bands, incredible

1093
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:12,560
Speaker 2: entry point. Yeah, what do you what more do you

1094
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 2: want to have a greatest tit? I'm not gonna wade

1095
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 2: through like Amma Gumma and a saucerful of secrets. To

1096
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 2: get to Pink Floyd when I'm nine? Did you get

1097
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 2: echoes too? Like I echoes? Forty licks was a big

1098
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:30,439
Speaker 2: one for Rolling Stones, Like I think there's nothing wrong

1099
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 2: with the greatest tips. I mean, I think the real

1100
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 2: problem is that Spotify Digital Music have let Spotify and

1101
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 2: labels in the record industry push exactly what Sly is

1102
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 2: talking about to the nth degree, to the point where

1103
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 2: you know that Swedish piece of who runs Spotify was

1104
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 2: quoted as saying, like, oh, it's just unreasonable for artists

1105
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 2: to think they can only release an album a year

1106
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 2: at this point. That's why it's just an everlasting stream

1107
00:57:54,920 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 2: of tracks. I hate that guy, Thank You and Everybody's

1108
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 2: a Star with a final. Family Stone Recordings issued in

1109
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 2: the nineteen sixties and marked the beginning of a twenty

1110
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 2: month gap of releases from the band, which would finally

1111
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 2: end with the release of Family Affair as the lead

1112
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 2: single off There's a Riot Going On. Good Time is

1113
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,360
Speaker 2: anything to talk about? Larry Graham the architecture of slap

1114
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 2: and pop bass playing, which can be heard notably in

1115
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 2: Thank You for Letting Me Be Myself Again. I don't

1116
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 2: know how to say that I want the whole thing

1117
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:30,560
Speaker 2: like tribe called Quest Style Jordan. I know we're not

1118
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 2: allowed to put songs in particularly, but there's an instructional

1119
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 2: video where Larry Graham talks about this.

1120
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:37,960
Speaker 1: Oh do you think we could put that in there?

1121
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 1: I will try to put that in there. Yeah, what so.

1122
00:58:40,640 --> 00:59:05,440
Speaker 2: Than wait lay. Larry Graham had been playing guitar in

1123
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 2: a trio or in a group that was doing like

1124
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:11,320
Speaker 2: kind of cocktail gigs and stuff, and then their drummer left.

1125
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 2: I believe he was forced to switch over to bass.

1126
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:17,760
Speaker 2: He was playing with his mother in his mother's band, actually,

1127
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 2: so he switched from guitar to bass, and then they

1128
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 2: lost their drummer, and so he developed this idea of

1129
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 2: basically mimicking the drum set with his bass lines and

1130
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 2: you know slap bass where you're just kind of hitting

1131
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 2: the string percussively enough to add the sound of it

1132
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 2: really hitting the fingerboard that was actually present in like

1133
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 2: rockabilly music and even early jazz. There's a lot of

1134
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 2: New Orleans bass players did that. There's a track on

1135
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 2: Charles Mingus's Blues and Roots called My Jelly Roll Soul

1136
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:51,720
Speaker 2: that is like a love letter to New Orleans jazz

1137
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:54,680
Speaker 2: and jelly roll Morton, and he's playing like really aggressive

1138
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 2: slap bass on it. So that was not unknown to

1139
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 2: bass players, but certainly became much more easy with an

1140
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:06,120
Speaker 2: electric bass because the strings are parallel instead of arced,

1141
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 2: and so basically Larry Graham was playing. The essence of

1142
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:12,920
Speaker 2: it is playing the kick and the snare at the

1143
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:15,480
Speaker 2: same time that you're playing your bass lines. So you

1144
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 2: hit it. The downstroke is generally with your thumb. That's

1145
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 2: the thump, and that's supposed to sound like a bass drum.

1146
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:26,440
Speaker 2: And then the pop, which you're doing with your index

1147
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 2: finger or middle finger, is actually going under the string

1148
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:32,360
Speaker 2: and pulling up to get that sound of it snapping

1149
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:34,920
Speaker 2: against the frets and the fretboard, which is imitating the

1150
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 2: higher pitch sound of a snare drum. And people have

1151
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 2: taken this technique and gone absolutely batched with. Victor Wooten

1152
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:46,280
Speaker 2: is one of the guys who is credited as doing

1153
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 2: you know to without going down too deep of a

1154
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 2: rabbit hole. He essentially adds multiple thumb strokes to it.

1155
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:54,720
Speaker 2: It's called double thumping, so he gets like two or

1156
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 2: three hits out of his thumb and then pop with

1157
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 2: almost every one of his other fingers, So he gets

1158
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:04,160
Speaker 2: these really insane runs and all this stuff done that

1159
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:09,520
Speaker 2: with that style that really shouldn't exist. But you know,

1160
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 2: you started hearing this, it was the sound of funk

1161
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 2: bass essentially. I mean you started hearing it. Brothers Johnson,

1162
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 2: Louis Johnson was another bass player who was a big

1163
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 2: formative guy as far as how that came across in

1164
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 2: the funk genre. But Larry Graham deserves the credit as

1165
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:29,439
Speaker 2: the main guy for that, and it's quite a shame

1166
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:31,240
Speaker 2: that he stopped being able to get to do it

1167
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 2: because he was written out of the band's recording process

1168
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 2: thanks to a whole lot of drama, which we will

1169
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:40,080
Speaker 2: get to now actually.

1170
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:42,320
Speaker 1: In a section called there's a drama going on.

1171
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:47,120
Speaker 2: Intra band tensions had also emerged during the band's meteoric rise,

1172
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:49,480
Speaker 2: the kind of tensions that don't really get better when

1173
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:52,000
Speaker 2: you're suddenly world famous and have just to move to

1174
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 2: La which the band did in nineteen sixty nine. Clive

1175
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:57,920
Speaker 2: Davis later wrote of this time period, Slide was simply

1176
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 2: not producing albums at all. I heard stories that he

1177
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:03,960
Speaker 2: was laying down hundreds of instrumental tracks in Southern California Studios.

1178
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:06,840
Speaker 2: Without vocals, there was strong speculation that he would never

1179
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:10,440
Speaker 2: sing again. We will return to how this white devil

1180
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 2: precipitated that later. So in La the band had moved

1181
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:18,360
Speaker 2: into a large house previously owned by John and Michelle

1182
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 2: Phillips of the Mamas and the Papas also deeply haunted

1183
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:24,680
Speaker 2: members of the musical scene. Yeah, not the best karma

1184
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 2: for your house to have, no I feel by them.

1185
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 1: I would assume that was actually probably where their marriage

1186
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 1: finally ended, because Michelle had an affair with the other

1187
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 1: Papa and the Mamas and the papa's Danny Doherty and

1188
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 1: John Phillips. Let's see, he was hanging out with the

1189
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:47,040
Speaker 1: Roman Polanski. Roman Polansky had an affair with Michelle Phillips also,

1190
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:50,080
Speaker 1: and then when Sharon Tate was killed, Roman assumed that

1191
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 1: John Phillips had done it and snuck into his house

1192
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 1: and dusted his rolls Royce looking for traces of blood. So,

1193
01:02:57,080 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 1: if your wife is murdered and the first person you

1194
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:01,439
Speaker 1: think that might have done it as John Phillips, John

1195
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:02,720
Speaker 1: Phillips probably not a good guy.

1196
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 2: And then he's also famously been accused.

1197
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:10,520
Speaker 1: Of incesture relationship with his daughter McKenzie.

1198
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:14,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no real way to phrase that delicately.

1199
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 1: Is there? Just the facts, ma'am, Yeah, just the facts.

1200
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:21,960
Speaker 2: Gross, so sad anyway, not a great house to move into,

1201
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 2: But it did have a hidden recording studio in its attic,

1202
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:30,560
Speaker 2: accessible via a bookcase in the one bedroom, which is

1203
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 2: so cool.

1204
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I don't like the fact that it was

1205
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:37,920
Speaker 1: hidden because for for John Phillips anyway, Yeah, that guy, Yes,

1206
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:39,080
Speaker 1: a hidden space.

1207
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:42,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, he shouldn't be allowed to hide things allegedly. But

1208
01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 2: what happened was essentially, with slies, increasing paranoia, cocaine induced,

1209
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 2: PCP induced otherwise uh and his work habits, it became

1210
01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 2: something of a prison, and band members literally referred to

1211
01:03:56,680 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 2: it as such. Sly would grill people about when they

1212
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 2: were leaving, when they'd be back, who they were leaving with,

1213
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 2: who was coming back. He would also start whenever he wanted.

1214
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:08,680
Speaker 2: He famously banned clocks in the house so that he

1215
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 2: could work on his own timetable, which would often mean

1216
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:15,840
Speaker 2: hanging around. The band would just hang around for hours

1217
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 2: until he called them up to do a horn part

1218
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 2: or whatever, and Jerry Martini sex offenist Jerry Martini would

1219
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:24,760
Speaker 2: later say he tried to pull us together as friends again.

1220
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 2: Come on down and see it again. Let's make it

1221
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:28,840
Speaker 2: like the old days. I went for it. I became

1222
01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:31,880
Speaker 2: a coke addict, drug addict, vegetable sitting around waiting for

1223
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:33,360
Speaker 2: my line like the rest of these holes.

1224
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:37,840
Speaker 1: I assume he doesn't mean that he became a vegetable addict. Also,

1225
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:41,479
Speaker 1: I guess while we're here with sly getting other people

1226
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:44,320
Speaker 1: hooked on drugs. In his memoir, he also claims that

1227
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:46,959
Speaker 1: he gave Grace Jones her first taste of crack, which

1228
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:50,360
Speaker 1: she mercifully hated. He wrote, I was on Grace to

1229
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:54,600
Speaker 1: smoke some crack. That's a vote for the HS. She

1230
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:58,240
Speaker 1: got royal about it. Also, Gretline, no thank you, she

1231
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:02,600
Speaker 1: said in her slippery Grace Jones accent. Amazing. I kept

1232
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:08,000
Speaker 1: making the case. This is an incredible economy of storytelling here.

1233
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:11,520
Speaker 1: Eventually she came around. I'll try it, she said. I

1234
01:05:11,520 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 1: don't like it. She said I couldn't believe it. Who

1235
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:18,160
Speaker 1: did it once and stopped a valid point? Yeah wow,

1236
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:19,920
Speaker 1: Jesus okay.

1237
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:22,439
Speaker 2: Slide also hooked up with your friend and mine, Terry

1238
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:26,200
Speaker 2: Melcher around this time, whom the other members of the

1239
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 2: band emphatically did not like an earlier visit to la

1240
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:32,680
Speaker 2: Before he moved, Slime met Terry Melcher's good friend Charlie

1241
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 2: Manson and his own family, no doubt, no doubt, marveling

1242
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:39,920
Speaker 2: over the very different meanings that word can have.

1243
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:43,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I'd like to quote that brief section of

1244
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:47,560
Speaker 1: Sli's memoir in full. One of the other people in

1245
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:50,840
Speaker 1: Terry Melcher's circle was a short, intense guy who'd kicked

1246
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:53,040
Speaker 1: around the music business for a few years and kept

1247
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:56,160
Speaker 1: auditioning for Terry. Terry was a record producer. His name

1248
01:05:56,240 --> 01:05:59,280
Speaker 1: was Charlie Manson. I crossed paths with him a few times.

1249
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:02,040
Speaker 1: Some times he'd be give an opinion and I'd give

1250
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 1: the opposite, and we'd have a little disagreement. They weren't

1251
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 1: even about songs. They were about nothing. Turn the lights

1252
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:13,040
Speaker 1: brighter or darker, open or close the door. He's having

1253
01:06:13,040 --> 01:06:16,840
Speaker 1: like a Seinfeld moment with Charlie Janson. Whichever way I went,

1254
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:19,920
Speaker 1: he'd go the other way. Terry wasn't gonna sign him

1255
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:22,120
Speaker 1: to a record deal, but he also didn't tell him

1256
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 1: to leave, partly because Manson made everyone uncomfortable. I remember

1257
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:28,480
Speaker 1: once getting the feeling that he shouldn't be there anymore.

1258
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:30,640
Speaker 1: We have to get out of here, I said, it's

1259
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:33,600
Speaker 1: time to go. I went to the door, walking real slow,

1260
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:36,600
Speaker 1: making sure Charlie came along. Then when he was at

1261
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:39,479
Speaker 1: the door, I turned and went back in and worked

1262
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:41,920
Speaker 1: on some songs with Terry. I didn't put it all

1263
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:45,480
Speaker 1: together until later. Manson had his family and I had mine.

1264
01:06:46,120 --> 01:06:49,520
Speaker 1: One of his tex Watson was really named Charles too,

1265
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:52,160
Speaker 1: but they called him text because he was from Dallas

1266
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:55,240
Speaker 1: and even lived in Denton where Sly was born. For

1267
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 1: a minute, small world, sometimes too small. That house that's

1268
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:02,160
Speaker 1: I was talking about very well, maybe the house on

1269
01:07:02,240 --> 01:07:05,840
Speaker 1: Sila Drive that rum and planskins Sharon Tate moved into

1270
01:07:06,080 --> 01:07:07,200
Speaker 1: where the murders happened.

1271
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:13,240
Speaker 2: So does that it's weird to have It's weird to

1272
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:17,360
Speaker 2: have the appearance of someone with worse vibes. Yeah, than

1273
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:20,919
Speaker 2: the round the clock cocaine and guns sessions that were

1274
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:22,880
Speaker 2: there's a rade going on.

1275
01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:28,040
Speaker 1: But hey, you know, well controversial question. Could it have

1276
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:32,160
Speaker 1: just been that Charlie was more powerful than him in

1277
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:32,920
Speaker 1: those settings?

1278
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:36,600
Speaker 2: Well, I mean Sly is also like again not to

1279
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:38,440
Speaker 2: speak ill of the dead, but he was also like

1280
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:40,760
Speaker 2: a real quick to temper kind of guy, even before

1281
01:07:41,240 --> 01:07:44,720
Speaker 2: I think the drugs, Like there was some random anecdote

1282
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:46,960
Speaker 2: about them, like when they were touring in Vegas or

1283
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:50,800
Speaker 2: something about like being pulled over and you know, unjustly

1284
01:07:50,880 --> 01:07:56,160
Speaker 2: and racistly. But Sly was like not behaving as a

1285
01:07:56,640 --> 01:08:01,080
Speaker 2: survival oriented black man of the time would be, and

1286
01:08:01,160 --> 01:08:02,959
Speaker 2: the rest of the band was like sitting there like, Sly,

1287
01:08:03,560 --> 01:08:05,800
Speaker 2: shut up, dude, like we need to get out of

1288
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:08,439
Speaker 2: we need to live, we need to get out of here.

1289
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 2: Do you want to be yourself again? And he did

1290
01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:18,080
Speaker 2: uh also to appoint this era. I didn't find an

1291
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:20,799
Speaker 2: exact date of this, but it needs to be mentioned

1292
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:24,200
Speaker 2: that Sly and one of his thug buddies, so at

1293
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:26,120
Speaker 2: one point he basically just got a bunch of like

1294
01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:28,760
Speaker 2: local street tufts and heavies, and they created a real

1295
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:32,080
Speaker 2: schism between the other musicians and everyone because people were

1296
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:34,240
Speaker 2: having sex with everyone and these guys were basically just

1297
01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:37,400
Speaker 2: around to like have guns and hold drugs and like

1298
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:42,519
Speaker 2: beat people up. But so Sly and one of these cats, JB. Brown,

1299
01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:45,800
Speaker 2: once beat the shit out of three Dog Night. You know.

1300
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:48,120
Speaker 1: Jeremiah was a.

1301
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:51,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was invited to a party with Three Dog

1302
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:53,559
Speaker 2: Night in New York, said JB.

1303
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:53,960
Speaker 1: Brown.

1304
01:08:54,280 --> 01:08:56,639
Speaker 2: So Sly says, let's all go down. We went down

1305
01:08:56,680 --> 01:08:58,920
Speaker 2: to his hotel room, knocked on the door and this

1306
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:02,240
Speaker 2: guy gets out of line, so Sly smacked him. Then

1307
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:05,240
Speaker 2: we were fighting Three Dog Knight. Well it wasn't a fight.

1308
01:09:05,520 --> 01:09:08,479
Speaker 2: We beat them up, me and Sly. Then we got sued.

1309
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:11,040
Speaker 1: While we're here, should we talk about Three Dog Knights

1310
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:11,960
Speaker 1: exploding penis?

1311
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:13,880
Speaker 2: I think it's that time.

1312
01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:17,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, folks, welcome to a section we like to call

1313
01:09:17,840 --> 01:09:35,760
Speaker 1: an exploding penis going on. That was so hard to

1314
01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:39,040
Speaker 1: do the straight face. In the nineteen seventies, Three Dog

1315
01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:41,439
Speaker 1: Knight became one of the biggest bands in America with

1316
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:43,880
Speaker 1: hits like Mama Told Me Not to Come, Never Been

1317
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:47,439
Speaker 1: to Spain, Joy to the World won and the rest.

1318
01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:50,479
Speaker 1: The run at the top came with all the usual

1319
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:53,800
Speaker 1: trappings of rock stardom, rampant drug use, financial missteps, and

1320
01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:58,400
Speaker 1: a revolving door of romantic entanglements euphemism, but among all,

1321
01:09:58,439 --> 01:10:01,120
Speaker 1: they're behind the scenes chaos. The most infamous story to

1322
01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 1: emerge involved singer Chuck Negron's penis That's an incredible prog

1323
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:09,600
Speaker 1: rock band name. According to Negrin. His prolific groof be

1324
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:13,640
Speaker 1: escapades led to such severe swelling and chafing that he

1325
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 1: was forced to seek medical help. After an examination, his

1326
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:19,120
Speaker 1: doctor warned him that if he didn't take a break

1327
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:23,000
Speaker 1: from sex, he could do serious damage, much like Slide

1328
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:26,200
Speaker 1: probably would have done. Negron ignored this advice, and he

1329
01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:30,840
Speaker 1: paid the price. During a particularly enthusiastic encounter with a

1330
01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:36,599
Speaker 1: former Miss America contestant, Negrin says, I can't say this face.

1331
01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:40,960
Speaker 1: Negrin says he heard a quote whooshing sound as his

1332
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:45,679
Speaker 1: overworked members split down the middle, quote like a hot dog.

1333
01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:50,479
Speaker 1: That alone would be horrifying, But in the aftermath, while

1334
01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:56,880
Speaker 1: he's being treated the emergency room, Negridge entered laughter and

1335
01:10:56,960 --> 01:10:59,960
Speaker 1: whispers from the hospital's staff as they stitched him up.

1336
01:11:00,479 --> 01:11:01,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, no shit.

1337
01:11:01,880 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 1: Now sober for many years and having lost the fortune

1338
01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:07,200
Speaker 1: that he earned a three Dog Knight to his drug addiction,

1339
01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:09,920
Speaker 1: Negrin says he looks back on the incident with what

1340
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:14,280
Speaker 1: he calls, quote some amusement anything to add I don't.

1341
01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:18,040
Speaker 2: Even no, no, I got nothing. I mean like, I'm

1342
01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:20,360
Speaker 2: not a doctor. Why would I weigh in on this?

1343
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:22,840
Speaker 1: One of the new shows I'm working on is a

1344
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:26,519
Speaker 1: men's health show with the tenantive title The Mailroom with

1345
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:30,760
Speaker 1: a urologist from UCLA, doctor Jesse Mills. Okay, I may

1346
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:33,240
Speaker 1: ask him about this. We're tapping our pilot on Monday.

1347
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:34,960
Speaker 2: I think you very much should.

1348
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:35,320
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1349
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:38,840
Speaker 2: The people weigh with baited breath. Also waiting with bated breath.

1350
01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:44,080
Speaker 2: No was the White Devil Clive Davis. He suspended Sly's

1351
01:11:44,160 --> 01:11:48,479
Speaker 2: record contract over the protracted weight over Riot, which I

1352
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:51,479
Speaker 2: guess is fair, except that it also stopped Sly from

1353
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:55,760
Speaker 2: collecting royalties on anything he'd done previously while it was

1354
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:58,360
Speaker 2: held up in court. So for months he could not

1355
01:11:58,439 --> 01:12:01,120
Speaker 2: make any money from any of his other hits, and

1356
01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:05,799
Speaker 2: so he was poor, coke addicted, PCP addicted, increasingly paranoid,

1357
01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:09,400
Speaker 2: and all of this dovetailed into a Kurt Cobain level ulcer.

1358
01:12:10,439 --> 01:12:12,599
Speaker 2: For those of you who aren't familiar with the minutia

1359
01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:16,959
Speaker 2: of a deceased grunge icon's medical history, many people suggest

1360
01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:19,479
Speaker 2: that the reason Kirk Cobain turned to heroin, which would

1361
01:12:19,520 --> 01:12:22,479
Speaker 2: ultimately add to his demise, was because he had a

1362
01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:27,680
Speaker 2: severe stomach ulcer that left him in you know, unendurable pain.

1363
01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:29,320
Speaker 1: That right, that's certainly a factor.

1364
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:32,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it didn't put a shotgun in

1365
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:38,000
Speaker 2: his mouth, but maybe it helped anyway. So Sly was

1366
01:12:38,520 --> 01:12:42,080
Speaker 2: prescribed placidyl, which is one of the least euphemistic drug

1367
01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:46,080
Speaker 2: terms I've ever heard. It's a sedative. So he would

1368
01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:48,400
Speaker 2: take that to double the pain and go to sleep

1369
01:12:48,640 --> 01:12:51,759
Speaker 2: and then take coke to wake up from that, et cetera.

1370
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:55,200
Speaker 2: Another George Clinton anecdote I want to throw in here.

1371
01:12:55,280 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 2: At one point Stone decamped to Michigan to go to

1372
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:04,040
Speaker 2: George Clinton's farm on what I think was an ill

1373
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:07,080
Speaker 2: conceived attempt to clean up, because why would you get

1374
01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:10,240
Speaker 2: anywhere within miles of George Clinton trying to get clean?

1375
01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:13,479
Speaker 2: But he was so broke he couldn't afford drugs. So

1376
01:13:13,680 --> 01:13:16,479
Speaker 2: George Clinton knew a dealer who was a super Sly

1377
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:20,240
Speaker 2: fan and had him show up to the farm. And

1378
01:13:20,439 --> 01:13:23,840
Speaker 2: Sly was like, well, I'm a little light, but I

1379
01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:27,439
Speaker 2: can give you this tape of music that I've been

1380
01:13:27,520 --> 01:13:30,760
Speaker 2: working on. This unreleased Sly tape that you can hold

1381
01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:33,160
Speaker 2: is collateral until I do have the money. You just

1382
01:13:33,200 --> 01:13:35,320
Speaker 2: can't listen to it or tell anyone about it. And

1383
01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:38,600
Speaker 2: he describes this guy's eyes lighting up like he was

1384
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:41,040
Speaker 2: just about to get traded the Holy Grail for coke.

1385
01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:44,080
Speaker 2: But as the guy drove off, Sly started laughing and

1386
01:13:44,120 --> 01:13:46,080
Speaker 2: George Clinton asked him what he was laughing about, and

1387
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:48,360
Speaker 2: so I was like, there's nothing on those tapes. The

1388
01:13:48,439 --> 01:13:51,879
Speaker 2: drug dealer did eventually discover this fact, but again, according

1389
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:55,240
Speaker 2: to Sly, he was not mad, simply saying you have

1390
01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:59,679
Speaker 2: to respect that, which like you found the one nice

1391
01:13:59,720 --> 01:14:02,439
Speaker 2: drug dealer in the world, because many of them would

1392
01:14:02,479 --> 01:14:03,920
Speaker 2: not say they had to respect that.

1393
01:14:04,240 --> 01:14:07,320
Speaker 1: Or he's completely lying because this is like his standard

1394
01:14:07,439 --> 01:14:12,639
Speaker 1: thing in his memoir, his highly Suspect memoir. They weren't

1395
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:13,480
Speaker 1: even mad.

1396
01:14:13,479 --> 01:14:15,559
Speaker 2: Like yeah, no one was mad at me. No, no,

1397
01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:17,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm just a little guy.

1398
01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:21,360
Speaker 1: There's this like really heartbreaking story where he says he

1399
01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:23,120
Speaker 1: goes to see his son with a grand in his

1400
01:14:23,200 --> 01:14:25,479
Speaker 1: pocket to buy him Christmas presents, and his son's like,

1401
01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:27,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, like ten, and he says on the

1402
01:14:27,439 --> 01:14:30,080
Speaker 1: way to his sons as he keeps stopping at various

1403
01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:32,160
Speaker 1: places to score drugs and by the time he's with

1404
01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:34,559
Speaker 1: his son, he's out of money, and he writes, I

1405
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:37,320
Speaker 1: felt terrible, but I was straight with him, tell truth

1406
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:40,240
Speaker 1: to the youth man, I said, I have nothing left

1407
01:14:40,280 --> 01:14:42,719
Speaker 1: for you. I spent it on dope. He wasn't mad,

1408
01:14:43,080 --> 01:14:45,320
Speaker 1: and if he was sad, he hit it. He just

1409
01:14:45,320 --> 01:14:47,120
Speaker 1: looked at me, clear eyed and told me he would

1410
01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:47,920
Speaker 1: get it next year.

1411
01:14:49,120 --> 01:14:51,720
Speaker 2: I just have a hard time believing that.

1412
01:14:51,960 --> 01:14:54,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, Yeah. The lack of any kind of ownership

1413
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:57,599
Speaker 1: of his stuff in this book is really hard to take.

1414
01:14:58,040 --> 01:15:01,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also just like again, like what child hears

1415
01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:04,120
Speaker 2: that and is like, no, it's cool, Like your life

1416
01:15:04,160 --> 01:15:07,320
Speaker 2: revolves around Christmas presents at that point, especially from your

1417
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:11,719
Speaker 2: I don't want to say the deadbeat, but it's a word.

1418
01:15:13,040 --> 01:15:14,000
Speaker 2: Was he a great father?

1419
01:15:14,120 --> 01:15:17,880
Speaker 1: Do we think there's an anecdote in a little while

1420
01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:19,719
Speaker 1: that I think can answer that question.

1421
01:15:20,560 --> 01:15:22,719
Speaker 2: Drummer Greg Erico was the first member of the original

1422
01:15:22,760 --> 01:15:25,880
Speaker 2: lineup to leave after Stone recorded or during I think

1423
01:15:26,560 --> 01:15:31,040
Speaker 2: the Riot sessions, or immediately before. Obviously, with so many

1424
01:15:31,120 --> 01:15:34,800
Speaker 2: unreliable narrators, it's very difficult to get a precise chronology

1425
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:38,439
Speaker 2: of this process. Because his replacement is also on Riot,

1426
01:15:38,479 --> 01:15:41,360
Speaker 2: which we'll talk about in a twenty nineteen interview, Erico said,

1427
01:15:41,439 --> 01:15:43,479
Speaker 2: I left because I didn't see a path or anything

1428
01:15:43,479 --> 01:15:45,760
Speaker 2: I could bring to the table any longer to change

1429
01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:49,360
Speaker 2: the situation. And it's really a tragedy. No one died

1430
01:15:49,439 --> 01:15:51,280
Speaker 2: or anything like that, but I mean it's a tragedy.

1431
01:15:51,400 --> 01:15:53,720
Speaker 2: The focal point changed from it all being about the

1432
01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:57,559
Speaker 2: music and our relationship to chemicals. Larry Graham would leave

1433
01:15:57,560 --> 01:16:00,439
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy two after years of drama that started

1434
01:16:00,439 --> 01:16:04,080
Speaker 2: when he was in a relationship with Rose Stone and

1435
01:16:04,439 --> 01:16:07,839
Speaker 2: one of Sly's new criminal buddies, the afore mentioned Bubba Banks,

1436
01:16:08,479 --> 01:16:10,719
Speaker 2: also had a thing for Rose and was not happy

1437
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:14,719
Speaker 2: about this. He did eventually persuade her to leave Graham,

1438
01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:18,559
Speaker 2: which she did, and then she married Bubba and divorced

1439
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:22,680
Speaker 2: him in short order. But because of how close Bubba

1440
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:25,560
Speaker 2: was to Sly, and because there was already sort of

1441
01:16:25,560 --> 01:16:28,000
Speaker 2: a clash of egos between Sly and Larry, like both

1442
01:16:28,040 --> 01:16:30,000
Speaker 2: of them kind of thought they were the ship, and

1443
01:16:30,000 --> 01:16:33,519
Speaker 2: they were. But there's only one in a band that

1444
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:36,960
Speaker 2: has your name on it, and it's not the bass players.

1445
01:16:37,080 --> 01:16:38,839
Speaker 1: I learned that the hard way in your band.

1446
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:44,360
Speaker 2: Oh oh, don't tell the people. I was some kind

1447
01:16:44,400 --> 01:16:45,040
Speaker 2: of a monster.

1448
01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:48,240
Speaker 1: You were not. You were a benevolent dick there. You

1449
01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:50,120
Speaker 1: were thinking you're the best band leader.

1450
01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:55,800
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. Yeah. So things got so bad

1451
01:16:55,840 --> 01:16:59,080
Speaker 2: over this that they both believed that they had taken

1452
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:02,760
Speaker 2: a hit out on each other at points and were like,

1453
01:17:02,880 --> 01:17:05,160
Speaker 2: there's there's a stuff in the oral history about like

1454
01:17:05,280 --> 01:17:07,680
Speaker 2: Larry Graham like making other people open the foot of

1455
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:13,040
Speaker 2: his car, like start, like they were really really concerned

1456
01:17:13,040 --> 01:17:14,519
Speaker 2: that the other one was just going to straight up

1457
01:17:14,840 --> 01:17:15,679
Speaker 2: kill the other one.

1458
01:17:15,760 --> 01:17:19,559
Speaker 1: No, I mean, okay, cocaine, hell of a drug, et cetera. Yeah,

1459
01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:23,120
Speaker 1: given the people that Sly hung out with, I could

1460
01:17:23,160 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 1: almost see it being like an accidental hit, like you

1461
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:31,120
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like, no, I don't this guy's

1462
01:17:31,200 --> 01:17:32,679
Speaker 1: this guy's really pissing me off.

1463
01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:34,720
Speaker 2: Someone should do something about that.

1464
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:37,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then it's like no, no, no, no, no, no,

1465
01:17:37,439 --> 01:17:38,000
Speaker 1: it's not no no.

1466
01:17:38,280 --> 01:17:43,000
Speaker 2: That yeah yeah yeah, maybe let's make the boss happy. Yeah.

1467
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:46,320
Speaker 2: Larry would add that on Riot he never played live

1468
01:17:46,360 --> 01:17:48,679
Speaker 2: with any of the other band members. I think he's

1469
01:17:48,680 --> 01:17:51,559
Speaker 2: only on two tracks of it, and sometimes he would

1470
01:17:51,920 --> 01:17:55,040
Speaker 2: find out later that Sly had replaced bass parts he'd

1471
01:17:55,080 --> 01:17:55,919
Speaker 2: already recorded.

1472
01:17:56,240 --> 01:17:58,599
Speaker 1: I went on some like I forget it was Steve

1473
01:17:58,640 --> 01:18:01,120
Speaker 1: Hoffman or what but some rabbit hole about how you

1474
01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:03,240
Speaker 1: could tell who's playing what, and you could always tell

1475
01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:04,840
Speaker 1: it Sly because Sly liked using a pick.

1476
01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:07,799
Speaker 2: Yes, actually I was about to say that later. Yeah,

1477
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:10,000
Speaker 2: like you hear his He comes at it like a

1478
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:13,240
Speaker 2: guitar player, where his lham plays like a bassist. Which

1479
01:18:13,320 --> 01:18:15,720
Speaker 2: is why, boys and girls, if you're one of those

1480
01:18:15,760 --> 01:18:18,439
Speaker 2: guitarists that thinks you can just switch to bass real easily,

1481
01:18:19,120 --> 01:18:21,720
Speaker 2: you can do that, but we all laugh at you

1482
01:18:21,840 --> 01:18:29,840
Speaker 2: behind the bucks. We all know we can all hear

1483
01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:34,120
Speaker 2: it anyway. Greg Erico told The Guardian all the stories

1484
01:18:34,160 --> 01:18:36,920
Speaker 2: about the Riot sessions are true. It was a tumultuous time.

1485
01:18:37,160 --> 01:18:39,320
Speaker 2: The group was splintering and there was huge pressure on

1486
01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:41,720
Speaker 2: Slide to make another record. Just as we were breaking up.

1487
01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:44,360
Speaker 2: We had cut Family Affair and Thank You for Talking

1488
01:18:44,400 --> 01:18:46,960
Speaker 2: to Me Africa with the original band the year before.

1489
01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:47,800
Speaker 1: Then.

1490
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:50,360
Speaker 2: Sly wanted to do it all himself. Maybe realized it

1491
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:53,280
Speaker 2: wasn't such fun, but couldn't back down. He'd knock on

1492
01:18:53,320 --> 01:18:54,840
Speaker 2: my door at three or four am and say, come on,

1493
01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:57,280
Speaker 2: I've got this part, get up, let's start recording. Other

1494
01:18:57,320 --> 01:19:00,400
Speaker 2: times he'd call the session off. Eventually I stopped going,

1495
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:02,680
Speaker 2: which got him into using the drum Machine.

1496
01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:04,920
Speaker 1: And he would later hire Andy Newmark, who went on

1497
01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:08,479
Speaker 1: to play with John Lennon I think for his Double

1498
01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:10,920
Speaker 1: Fantasy Session, the last album that he made before he

1499
01:19:10,960 --> 01:19:13,559
Speaker 1: was killed. So that's my one. That's my one, Beatles one.

1500
01:19:14,920 --> 01:19:18,240
Speaker 1: Thank God, thank you for talking to me Africa. That's

1501
01:19:18,280 --> 01:19:22,479
Speaker 1: a reworking of thank you for letting me be myself,

1502
01:19:22,640 --> 01:19:26,759
Speaker 1: as we'll talk about later. Is that re recorded entirely?

1503
01:19:27,040 --> 01:19:30,280
Speaker 1: Or is it the original tape slowed down and manipulated

1504
01:19:30,479 --> 01:19:31,000
Speaker 1: sliced up?

1505
01:19:32,120 --> 01:19:35,719
Speaker 2: I mean I don't have those ears. Yeah I would,

1506
01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:42,600
Speaker 2: and I certainly didn't develop them today, So like I

1507
01:19:42,800 --> 01:19:45,800
Speaker 2: maybe could find that out if or like really give

1508
01:19:45,840 --> 01:19:46,960
Speaker 2: it a deep listen.

1509
01:19:46,720 --> 01:19:48,280
Speaker 1: But yeah I can't.

1510
01:19:48,760 --> 01:19:51,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was enough for me to like go in

1511
01:19:51,040 --> 01:19:53,479
Speaker 2: and try and just constantly listen to like is that

1512
01:19:53,560 --> 01:19:56,479
Speaker 2: Larryers or Sly? But yes, the tail is the pick

1513
01:19:57,360 --> 01:19:59,439
Speaker 2: and also just like so much other string noise and

1514
01:19:59,479 --> 01:20:02,280
Speaker 2: stuff like he's he's not as good a bass player

1515
01:20:02,320 --> 01:20:07,639
Speaker 2: as the professional bass player. What a shock. So Greece

1516
01:20:07,760 --> 01:20:11,519
Speaker 2: is all the background and contemporaneous information and context that

1517
01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:14,880
Speaker 2: Riot needs to be properly talked about. But before we

1518
01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:17,559
Speaker 2: dive into the bel Air Mansion part of this just

1519
01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:22,000
Speaker 2: take a brief detour into Sunnier Climbs. The record plants

1520
01:20:22,080 --> 01:20:26,479
Speaker 2: newly open Northern California location in sas Alito. We touched

1521
01:20:26,520 --> 01:20:28,679
Speaker 2: on this a bit in the Fleetwood Mac Rumors episode,

1522
01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:31,160
Speaker 2: but Sly was a very big client of these guys,

1523
01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:34,679
Speaker 2: and so after Riot actually came out, Slide convinced the owners,

1524
01:20:34,680 --> 01:20:38,000
Speaker 2: Gary Kelgrin and Christone to convert one of the offices

1525
01:20:38,040 --> 01:20:40,960
Speaker 2: in the sas Alito location into something that was eventually

1526
01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:42,040
Speaker 2: dubbed the Pit.

1527
01:20:42,360 --> 01:20:43,639
Speaker 1: This is after Riot came out.

1528
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:47,840
Speaker 2: He'd been recording there again Timeline, everybody was doing a

1529
01:20:47,880 --> 01:20:49,760
Speaker 2: lot of drugs. But my understanding is that he had

1530
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:53,760
Speaker 2: been recording with them there before and then was like,

1531
01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:57,200
Speaker 2: can you build me this pipe dream of a studio

1532
01:20:57,720 --> 01:21:00,360
Speaker 2: and they were like, okay, man, and then they did.

1533
01:21:00,360 --> 01:21:00,519
Speaker 1: So.

1534
01:21:01,040 --> 01:21:03,360
Speaker 2: I don't know how much of it he actually really

1535
01:21:03,600 --> 01:21:06,040
Speaker 2: used or how much time he spent there. I know

1536
01:21:06,120 --> 01:21:08,439
Speaker 2: it was his crash pad for a while, as we'll

1537
01:21:08,479 --> 01:21:13,800
Speaker 2: talk about anyway, The Pit was a recording studio that

1538
01:21:13,840 --> 01:21:16,840
Speaker 2: had a recording console and a sixteen track tape machine,

1539
01:21:17,160 --> 01:21:21,599
Speaker 2: but they were a full story underneath the rest of

1540
01:21:21,680 --> 01:21:24,880
Speaker 2: the situation of the of this room. It was like

1541
01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:28,080
Speaker 2: a two tiered room, and the musicians were set up

1542
01:21:28,120 --> 01:21:29,560
Speaker 2: on sort of a I don't even know what the

1543
01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:33,320
Speaker 2: technical touris. No, like a ledge. It was like the

1544
01:21:33,360 --> 01:21:37,400
Speaker 2: circular ledge that surrounded this sunken area.

1545
01:21:37,720 --> 01:21:39,960
Speaker 1: It was like a giant conversation pit. And then the

1546
01:21:40,040 --> 01:21:41,320
Speaker 1: musicians were on top.

1547
01:21:41,160 --> 01:21:44,479
Speaker 2: Of yes, exactly, and Sly would like he also would

1548
01:21:44,560 --> 01:21:47,000
Speaker 2: like make the B three get lowered down into there

1549
01:21:47,040 --> 01:21:50,839
Speaker 2: to play. But it was also all covered in plush carpet.

1550
01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:55,320
Speaker 2: I'm sure like Hella Shag Yeah, so absolutely acoustically dead

1551
01:21:55,320 --> 01:21:59,920
Speaker 2: space psychedelic murals that she was all embroidered. Bob Welch,

1552
01:22:00,040 --> 01:22:02,080
Speaker 2: who was at the record Plant recording with Fleetwood Mac,

1553
01:22:02,120 --> 01:22:04,640
Speaker 2: would say, you're laying on this carpeted floor, guitars on

1554
01:22:04,680 --> 01:22:07,719
Speaker 2: your lap, pillow under your head. I remember watching Rolling

1555
01:22:07,720 --> 01:22:10,599
Speaker 2: Stone's bass Bill Wyman doing vocals at one point, lying

1556
01:22:10,640 --> 01:22:12,960
Speaker 2: down with a bottle of brandy and a mic jack

1557
01:22:13,000 --> 01:22:17,439
Speaker 2: stuck through the wall. Kelgrin later built Stone his own

1558
01:22:17,479 --> 01:22:21,040
Speaker 2: apartment for his extended stays at the record Plant, complete

1559
01:22:21,080 --> 01:22:25,120
Speaker 2: with a small office, lounge, bathroom, and bedroom. The bed

1560
01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:28,719
Speaker 2: was accessible by climbing through a huge pair of bright

1561
01:22:28,800 --> 01:22:32,800
Speaker 2: red upholstered lips to get into this bedroom part. But

1562
01:22:32,800 --> 01:22:37,360
Speaker 2: they also ran connections into the headboard of the bed

1563
01:22:38,120 --> 01:22:41,080
Speaker 2: so that you could record vocals while lying down in bed.

1564
01:22:42,160 --> 01:22:44,599
Speaker 2: And as a final grace note, I think the pit

1565
01:22:44,680 --> 01:22:46,920
Speaker 2: was also equipped with black lights so that you could

1566
01:22:46,960 --> 01:22:49,880
Speaker 2: flip them on and turn off the incandescence and find

1567
01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:52,639
Speaker 2: all the coke that you previously hadn't been able to see.

1568
01:22:54,479 --> 01:22:57,200
Speaker 1: And we talked about this recording space in the Fleetwood

1569
01:22:57,200 --> 01:23:01,920
Speaker 1: mac Rumors episode because this is where Stevie Nicks came

1570
01:23:02,040 --> 01:23:05,920
Speaker 1: to hide away from the absolutely rancid vibes in the

1571
01:23:05,960 --> 01:23:09,639
Speaker 1: studio with Lindsay and everybody. She would sneak into Sly's

1572
01:23:09,720 --> 01:23:14,040
Speaker 1: disused private studio with her notebook and that was where

1573
01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:16,840
Speaker 1: she wrote Dreams. He wrote the lyrics to Dreams in

1574
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:22,360
Speaker 1: Sly's circular bed, if I recall yeah with his roads. Yes, yes, yes,

1575
01:23:22,800 --> 01:23:25,519
Speaker 1: I've been desperately trying to find photos of all of us,

1576
01:23:25,640 --> 01:23:28,040
Speaker 1: but to no avail. If you were a loved one,

1577
01:23:28,080 --> 01:23:30,880
Speaker 1: have images of the bright red upholstered lips that led

1578
01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:33,519
Speaker 1: to a loft in sly Stone's private day area studio

1579
01:23:33,560 --> 01:23:36,320
Speaker 1: in the early seventies, Please get in touch the studio.

1580
01:23:36,400 --> 01:23:39,880
Speaker 1: Musician Al Cooper, who played the organ part on Like

1581
01:23:39,920 --> 01:23:43,480
Speaker 1: a Rolling Stone, said it looked like something out of Thunderdome,

1582
01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:44,559
Speaker 1: which I love.

1583
01:23:45,120 --> 01:23:47,439
Speaker 2: Did you ever hear the other Al Cooper story about

1584
01:23:47,439 --> 01:23:50,160
Speaker 2: the pit. No, At one point they got really into

1585
01:23:50,240 --> 01:23:53,599
Speaker 2: nitrous oxide and they just had a tank of nitrous

1586
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:56,919
Speaker 2: oxide there all the time through like a crooked dentist,

1587
01:23:57,120 --> 01:24:00,320
Speaker 2: and he loved it so much. Al Cooper did and

1588
01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:02,640
Speaker 2: like had a real problem with apparently he was just

1589
01:24:02,680 --> 01:24:05,759
Speaker 2: like about to become a nitrous addict. But that eventually

1590
01:24:05,760 --> 01:24:09,479
Speaker 2: went away when they just found someone passed out under

1591
01:24:09,520 --> 01:24:12,639
Speaker 2: the controlled desk with the nitrous tube still in their mouth.

1592
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:17,120
Speaker 2: Because you know, airtight studio you're doing, you're doing inhillents

1593
01:24:17,320 --> 01:24:19,800
Speaker 2: in there. Not generally a smart combination, but you know,

1594
01:24:20,439 --> 01:24:21,440
Speaker 2: it was the seventies.

1595
01:24:21,680 --> 01:24:26,120
Speaker 1: This footage of the dead, I'm pretty sure it was there.

1596
01:24:26,160 --> 01:24:28,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they did working man's there.

1597
01:24:28,720 --> 01:24:32,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, passing around uh a nitrous hose in a very

1598
01:24:32,360 --> 01:24:37,160
Speaker 1: early home video footage. It's very funny to see. Hilariously,

1599
01:24:37,200 --> 01:24:39,559
Speaker 1: the hourly rate for the record plant in this area

1600
01:24:39,640 --> 01:24:41,599
Speaker 1: was one hundred and twenty five dollars an hour, which

1601
01:24:41,640 --> 01:24:45,000
Speaker 1: is closer to a grand an hour today, so it makes.

1602
01:24:44,840 --> 01:24:51,200
Speaker 2: Honestly not that expensive. Oh really, dude, there's engineers and

1603
01:24:51,760 --> 01:24:54,680
Speaker 2: studio time at like one of these top flight paces.

1604
01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:57,640
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, probably get up to about that

1605
01:24:59,320 --> 01:25:02,519
Speaker 2: because it's so damn expensive these days. You don't rent everything.

1606
01:25:02,640 --> 01:25:05,120
Speaker 2: Like you couldn't just run it out of a bungalow.

1607
01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:08,080
Speaker 2: I mean, you can't guarantee you no studio could afford

1608
01:25:08,120 --> 01:25:14,240
Speaker 2: to set up in Sosolito right now. But anyway, simpler times.

1609
01:25:15,120 --> 01:25:18,680
Speaker 2: Although Riot is now heralded as a sort of predecessor

1610
01:25:18,720 --> 01:25:23,519
Speaker 2: to like Bedroom produced DIY Records or like Laptop producer guys,

1611
01:25:23,800 --> 01:25:25,519
Speaker 2: the truth was that the atmosphere in the bel Air

1612
01:25:25,560 --> 01:25:28,840
Speaker 2: mansion was more of a drug fueled open house frequented

1613
01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:32,280
Speaker 2: by not only musicians like Bobby Womack, Ike Turner, Johnny

1614
01:25:32,280 --> 01:25:36,759
Speaker 2: Guitar Watson, Billy Preston, and even country funk icon Jim Ford.

1615
01:25:37,600 --> 01:25:40,240
Speaker 2: Billy Preston and Bobby Walmack both ended up playing on

1616
01:25:40,280 --> 01:25:42,960
Speaker 2: the record, but people who didn't who also drop by

1617
01:25:43,000 --> 01:25:47,599
Speaker 2: were Richard Pryor, drummer Buddy Miles, Isaac Hayes, and Red Fox,

1618
01:25:47,760 --> 01:25:50,760
Speaker 2: who sign in the family Stone had played with I

1619
01:25:50,800 --> 01:25:52,719
Speaker 2: think they opened for him in Vegas.

1620
01:25:53,160 --> 01:25:55,280
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he did have a Vegas vicidency for a

1621
01:25:55,280 --> 01:25:56,520
Speaker 1: long time. Yeah.

1622
01:25:56,560 --> 01:25:59,280
Speaker 2: Bobby Willmack wouldn't tell the Guardian. It was so spacey.

1623
01:25:59,479 --> 01:26:01,920
Speaker 2: I remembering there in the dark and sly studio, coke

1624
01:26:02,000 --> 01:26:04,920
Speaker 2: to the brain, trying to sing, staying up for four, five,

1625
01:26:05,040 --> 01:26:07,640
Speaker 2: six days. That's just the way he was. That's like

1626
01:26:07,840 --> 01:26:13,600
Speaker 2: close to like the point where your brain starts working. Yeah, well, cocaine.

1627
01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:19,640
Speaker 2: That's an endorsement, just cocaine, statement of fact. Yeah. The

1628
01:26:19,680 --> 01:26:22,400
Speaker 2: householdso include a number of Slies non musical entourage.

1629
01:26:22,479 --> 01:26:23,599
Speaker 1: This is the bell I imagine.

1630
01:26:23,760 --> 01:26:27,439
Speaker 2: Yes, the aforementioned Bubba Banks and JB. Brown among them.

1631
01:26:27,560 --> 01:26:31,320
Speaker 2: And as John Phillips wrote in his autobiography, Sli's goons

1632
01:26:31,360 --> 01:26:35,479
Speaker 2: were sullen, unfriendly and armed. These people were rough. They

1633
01:26:35,560 --> 01:26:39,240
Speaker 2: laughed at me, which of course they did, you Minge.

1634
01:26:40,080 --> 01:26:44,080
Speaker 2: There were lots of guns, rifles, machine guns, big dogs.

1635
01:26:44,200 --> 01:26:48,000
Speaker 2: Sly Stone's pitbull gun was one of them. And as

1636
01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:50,759
Speaker 2: Bobby Wilmack would remember, you would be playing one minute

1637
01:26:50,800 --> 01:26:53,240
Speaker 2: and the next minute Slide would say, everybody better find

1638
01:26:53,240 --> 01:26:55,479
Speaker 2: a hiding spot because I'm going to turn gun loose.

1639
01:26:56,000 --> 01:26:59,800
Speaker 2: I would run and hide. This dog didn't play apparently

1640
01:26:59,840 --> 01:27:02,800
Speaker 2: the rules of two peacocks on the property that would

1641
01:27:02,840 --> 01:27:04,840
Speaker 2: attack anyone leaving the house at night.

1642
01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:07,960
Speaker 1: I have some unpleasant gun stories. Would you like to

1643
01:27:07,960 --> 01:27:08,360
Speaker 1: hear them?

1644
01:27:08,640 --> 01:27:12,280
Speaker 2: I heard the less detailed version of this from Jerry

1645
01:27:12,280 --> 01:27:14,640
Speaker 2: Martini in the Oral History, so I would love to

1646
01:27:14,640 --> 01:27:16,920
Speaker 2: hear whatever more graphic version of it you have.

1647
01:27:17,520 --> 01:27:20,000
Speaker 1: Well. Well, first off, there was an incident with Gun

1648
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:23,760
Speaker 1: where the pit ball quote savaged Slies pet monkey to

1649
01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:26,400
Speaker 1: death and then had sex with its corpse in front

1650
01:27:26,400 --> 01:27:28,080
Speaker 1: of the horrified house's residence.

1651
01:27:28,320 --> 01:27:32,080
Speaker 2: Yes, I believe Jerry Martini, Jerry Martini among them.

1652
01:27:32,320 --> 01:27:37,400
Speaker 1: Okay, okay. Slies memoir also includes this disturbing anecdote after

1653
01:27:37,520 --> 01:27:41,719
Speaker 1: Gun attacked his baby boy, Slies baby boy. The incident

1654
01:27:41,760 --> 01:27:46,639
Speaker 1: occurred when Sly reportedly allegedly whatever legal reasons, whatever legal

1655
01:27:47,040 --> 01:27:50,880
Speaker 1: thing we need here, this wasn't, including the memoir, left

1656
01:27:50,920 --> 01:27:54,040
Speaker 1: home for two weeks without making accommodations for the dog,

1657
01:27:54,400 --> 01:27:56,799
Speaker 1: and as a result, Gun didn't eat for two weeks,

1658
01:27:56,840 --> 01:28:00,040
Speaker 1: and when they returned home they found him starving and

1659
01:28:00,120 --> 01:28:05,439
Speaker 1: understandably acting beyond reason. Sly Wright's gun gut Sylvester Junior's

1660
01:28:05,560 --> 01:28:08,400
Speaker 1: entire head in his mouth, teeth, went down one side

1661
01:28:08,439 --> 01:28:11,120
Speaker 1: of his face and took off part of his ear. Kathy,

1662
01:28:11,240 --> 01:28:15,120
Speaker 1: Sly's wife, screamed and rushed to separate them. She this

1663
01:28:15,200 --> 01:28:17,040
Speaker 1: isn't in the memoir, but I read elsewhere that she

1664
01:28:17,120 --> 01:28:20,160
Speaker 1: reportedly got down on all fours and began growling and

1665
01:28:20,240 --> 01:28:23,439
Speaker 1: barking like an animal herself to convince Gun to release

1666
01:28:23,439 --> 01:28:26,800
Speaker 1: the infant. She drove Sylvester Junior to the hospital so

1667
01:28:26,840 --> 01:28:29,879
Speaker 1: he could be patched up. Sly then took Gun upstairs

1668
01:28:29,920 --> 01:28:32,559
Speaker 1: to a balcony. He said, I shot him and threw

1669
01:28:32,560 --> 01:28:35,240
Speaker 1: his body down into the canyon. It was the hardest

1670
01:28:35,280 --> 01:28:38,240
Speaker 1: thing I'd ever done. He was my best friend. It

1671
01:28:38,280 --> 01:28:41,160
Speaker 1: tore through me after that. It was even hard for

1672
01:28:41,200 --> 01:28:43,320
Speaker 1: me to look at certain places in the house because

1673
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:46,640
Speaker 1: they made me think about him. Gun Nah. Bringing it

1674
01:28:46,680 --> 01:28:49,240
Speaker 1: back to the album, makes a cameo in the inner

1675
01:28:49,280 --> 01:28:52,880
Speaker 1: gatefold collage for Riot, and as you mentioned, there were

1676
01:28:52,920 --> 01:28:56,800
Speaker 1: lots of literal guns around. Sly reportedly kept guns in

1677
01:28:56,840 --> 01:28:59,599
Speaker 1: every room of the house, including under pillows and inside

1678
01:28:59,680 --> 01:29:04,280
Speaker 1: toilet tanks. When band members asked about them, Sly responded

1679
01:29:04,320 --> 01:29:08,320
Speaker 1: by saying, you never know, although in Sly's case, you

1680
01:29:08,400 --> 01:29:12,320
Speaker 1: do know later in his life, but also probably around

1681
01:29:12,360 --> 01:29:15,200
Speaker 1: this era, Sly was convinced that the FBI had bugged

1682
01:29:15,200 --> 01:29:19,080
Speaker 1: his house. In an event, a sense of paranoia permeated

1683
01:29:19,080 --> 01:29:19,840
Speaker 1: these sessions.

1684
01:29:20,880 --> 01:29:24,679
Speaker 2: Well they were raided at what point? Yeah, I'm trying

1685
01:29:24,720 --> 01:29:28,800
Speaker 2: to find that now because I didn't put it on. Yes.

1686
01:29:29,560 --> 01:29:33,800
Speaker 2: He was arrested in nineteen seventy three at the bel

1687
01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:38,799
Speaker 2: Air mansion, where Vice agents found cocaine, obviously heroin, marijuana PCP,

1688
01:29:39,120 --> 01:29:43,480
Speaker 2: and six hundred doses of placidyl and also twenty pistols,

1689
01:29:43,479 --> 01:29:47,320
Speaker 2: three rifles, and one shotgun. He was twenty nine and

1690
01:29:47,520 --> 01:29:48,880
Speaker 2: was freed after posting bond.

1691
01:29:49,000 --> 01:29:50,519
Speaker 1: I honestly, twenty sounds low to me.

1692
01:29:50,840 --> 01:29:52,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, that's what they found.

1693
01:29:53,280 --> 01:29:56,479
Speaker 1: You know, they weren't really probably looking in toilet tanks.

1694
01:29:56,840 --> 01:30:00,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's a there's a lot of guns

1695
01:30:01,200 --> 01:30:03,000
Speaker 2: for a guy who's doing PCP.

1696
01:30:03,479 --> 01:30:03,879
Speaker 1: Anyway.

1697
01:30:04,200 --> 01:30:06,639
Speaker 2: The other big thing that everyone talks about with Riot

1698
01:30:06,680 --> 01:30:09,320
Speaker 2: is its use of a drum machine. At this point,

1699
01:30:09,439 --> 01:30:13,280
Speaker 2: drum machines were basically toys. They were extremely limited in

1700
01:30:13,360 --> 01:30:17,080
Speaker 2: what they could do. I think Jerry Martini derisively talks

1701
01:30:17,080 --> 01:30:21,080
Speaker 2: about it is one of those things. Cocktail Bostonova pianist

1702
01:30:21,160 --> 01:30:23,439
Speaker 2: would use while he was performing at a supper club

1703
01:30:23,640 --> 01:30:26,320
Speaker 2: or something like that, which is what they were actually

1704
01:30:26,400 --> 01:30:28,360
Speaker 2: used by. It was like people who couldn't afford a

1705
01:30:28,400 --> 01:30:31,360
Speaker 2: drummer were like pianists. Keyboard players could play by themselves.

1706
01:30:31,439 --> 01:30:34,280
Speaker 1: I mean, all those weird technological advanced things in this

1707
01:30:34,360 --> 01:30:38,080
Speaker 1: era you're right, were used. I think the beltron was

1708
01:30:38,200 --> 01:30:41,599
Speaker 1: used for cabarets. Initially it was like the script, some

1709
01:30:41,720 --> 01:30:44,479
Speaker 1: kind of like union rule, I think. And so that's

1710
01:30:44,479 --> 01:30:47,880
Speaker 1: why you have, like, you know, all these pre programs,

1711
01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:51,760
Speaker 1: backing tracks and stuff in these early synthesizers was for

1712
01:30:51,920 --> 01:30:53,920
Speaker 1: exactly what you just mentioned. So these guys could play

1713
01:30:54,080 --> 01:30:57,800
Speaker 1: alone on stage at cabaret clubs and the owners enough

1714
01:30:57,880 --> 01:30:58,679
Speaker 1: to pay a whole band.

1715
01:30:59,439 --> 01:31:01,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, Sly was not the first person to put out

1716
01:31:01,439 --> 01:31:04,439
Speaker 2: a record with this. People say that Family Affair is,

1717
01:31:04,760 --> 01:31:07,800
Speaker 2: but it's the first American record. Oh no, I'm sorry,

1718
01:31:07,800 --> 01:31:11,920
Speaker 2: that's wrong. I was incorrect about that first hit, first

1719
01:31:11,960 --> 01:31:15,479
Speaker 2: American hit. Well, first American hit, because Robin Gibb Baby

1720
01:31:16,080 --> 01:31:18,440
Speaker 2: with his nineteen sixty nine single Saved.

1721
01:31:18,160 --> 01:31:20,160
Speaker 1: By the Bell, notched that record.

1722
01:31:20,520 --> 01:31:22,479
Speaker 2: But Stone's use of it first use of it and

1723
01:31:22,520 --> 01:31:25,160
Speaker 2: an American so he has that because we don't care

1724
01:31:25,200 --> 01:31:27,960
Speaker 2: about America. That's the only thing that really matters around here.

1725
01:31:28,000 --> 01:31:32,040
Speaker 2: If I'm being truthful with your brother, don't countless. It's

1726
01:31:32,080 --> 01:31:36,439
Speaker 2: in these contiguous forty eight I can't imagine in like

1727
01:31:36,520 --> 01:31:40,879
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine, like drummers who are being sampled today

1728
01:31:41,439 --> 01:31:44,840
Speaker 2: to build drum packs from are just floating around out there,

1729
01:31:44,880 --> 01:31:50,360
Speaker 2: and you're like, I choose this box, this toy. The

1730
01:31:50,400 --> 01:31:54,200
Speaker 2: toy is a Maestro. Mr K two Stone first use

1731
01:31:54,280 --> 01:31:56,920
Speaker 2: it on a song he produced for the band Little Sister,

1732
01:31:58,080 --> 01:31:59,760
Speaker 2: and he just flipped over it. He called it the

1733
01:31:59,800 --> 01:32:02,679
Speaker 2: fon punk Box, and apparently he just kind of enjoyed

1734
01:32:02,800 --> 01:32:06,479
Speaker 2: making it work. It enabled him to skirt a drummer

1735
01:32:06,600 --> 01:32:08,920
Speaker 2: for having to play drums for his own. He could

1736
01:32:08,920 --> 01:32:11,280
Speaker 2: just lay down one of these tracks and just overdub

1737
01:32:11,320 --> 01:32:14,360
Speaker 2: everything else to it himself. And engineer Tom Fly, who

1738
01:32:14,400 --> 01:32:17,639
Speaker 2: worked on Fresh, the follow up LP to Riot, said

1739
01:32:17,880 --> 01:32:21,760
Speaker 2: usually he'd start with the Maestro Maestro. It could do

1740
01:32:21,800 --> 01:32:23,920
Speaker 2: real simple stuff, but it gave him a foundation to

1741
01:32:23,960 --> 01:32:25,439
Speaker 2: work on, and then he'd build his record to the

1742
01:32:25,520 --> 01:32:28,439
Speaker 2: rhythm box. Sometimes he replaces it with real drums, but

1743
01:32:28,520 --> 01:32:30,519
Speaker 2: on some tracks the funk box is still on there,

1744
01:32:30,640 --> 01:32:33,040
Speaker 2: or he'd use both. There was no set way of working.

1745
01:32:51,160 --> 01:32:54,080
Speaker 2: Another thing that Riot is famous for is it's murky,

1746
01:32:55,200 --> 01:32:59,960
Speaker 2: nigh on incomprehensible mix. Slide was overdubbing track after track

1747
01:33:00,120 --> 01:33:04,120
Speaker 2: after track with little notions of traditional recording consistency. He

1748
01:33:04,120 --> 01:33:07,919
Speaker 2: doesn't bother to match up the backing vocals from anyone

1749
01:33:08,040 --> 01:33:10,759
Speaker 2: to the lead vocal. He's not even bothering to sing

1750
01:33:10,920 --> 01:33:13,680
Speaker 2: his own phrasing when he's doubling his lines, and this

1751
01:33:13,760 --> 01:33:16,240
Speaker 2: makes it really difficult to understand the lyrics, which is

1752
01:33:16,360 --> 01:33:19,120
Speaker 2: very funny considering that Sly was a big Bob Dylan

1753
01:33:19,200 --> 01:33:21,639
Speaker 2: fan and even wanted to work with him on a record.

1754
01:33:21,800 --> 01:33:23,960
Speaker 2: And another tricky part about the vocals on this album

1755
01:33:24,040 --> 01:33:25,800
Speaker 2: is that Sly was in the habit of bringing women

1756
01:33:25,920 --> 01:33:28,840
Speaker 2: back to the mansion and auditioning them. I'm using air

1757
01:33:28,920 --> 01:33:31,799
Speaker 2: quotes here, you can't see it, so having them sing

1758
01:33:32,320 --> 01:33:35,799
Speaker 2: and then further auditioning them, and then in the morning,

1759
01:33:36,000 --> 01:33:39,320
Speaker 2: when their audition was complete, he would just erase it

1760
01:33:39,360 --> 01:33:41,920
Speaker 2: off the tapes and never see them again. Obviously, he

1761
01:33:42,040 --> 01:33:42,439
Speaker 2: did have.

1762
01:33:42,400 --> 01:33:45,080
Speaker 1: A headboard with Mike Jackson it, so that.

1763
01:33:45,120 --> 01:33:48,879
Speaker 2: Was in saslido. I don't I'm not familiar with his mansion,

1764
01:33:49,320 --> 01:33:52,120
Speaker 2: the bel air recording setup. If you were a loved

1765
01:33:52,120 --> 01:33:54,320
Speaker 2: one with either imprisoned by size.

1766
01:33:54,000 --> 01:33:54,479
Speaker 1: Blow.

1767
01:33:55,920 --> 01:34:00,400
Speaker 2: In a druggy la Hell, I'm so so sorry. Sorry

1768
01:34:00,640 --> 01:34:03,120
Speaker 2: first of all, but please get in touch. I would

1769
01:34:03,120 --> 01:34:03,920
Speaker 2: like to know more about that.

1770
01:34:06,520 --> 01:34:08,439
Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break, but we'll be

1771
01:34:08,520 --> 01:34:11,360
Speaker 1: right back with more too much information in just a moment.

1772
01:34:24,439 --> 01:34:28,360
Speaker 2: Riot, as previously mentioned, was originally titled Africa Talks to You.

1773
01:34:28,840 --> 01:34:30,920
Speaker 2: One of the reasons for the name change may have

1774
01:34:31,000 --> 01:34:34,200
Speaker 2: been that Motown released Marvin Gaye What's going On six

1775
01:34:34,240 --> 01:34:37,639
Speaker 2: months before Riot came out, and that sly was answering

1776
01:34:37,760 --> 01:34:41,000
Speaker 2: the question posed by Gay's landmark work.

1777
01:34:41,360 --> 01:34:43,600
Speaker 1: That's really interesting me and that never occurred to me

1778
01:34:43,840 --> 01:34:47,160
Speaker 1: until reading this, because the phrase there's a riot going

1779
01:34:47,200 --> 01:34:50,240
Speaker 1: on became something of a catchphrase in the era of

1780
01:34:50,280 --> 01:34:52,559
Speaker 1: early rock and roll, thanks to the liber and Stolo

1781
01:34:52,720 --> 01:34:56,360
Speaker 1: trackt Riot and Cell Block Number nine, which features the

1782
01:34:56,360 --> 01:34:59,960
Speaker 1: there's a riot going on refrain over like one four

1783
01:35:00,120 --> 01:35:03,240
Speaker 1: five pattern, and it kind of just became like one

1784
01:35:03,240 --> 01:35:07,000
Speaker 1: of those like stock phrases in very very early rock songs,

1785
01:35:07,280 --> 01:35:09,960
Speaker 1: and for years was really until researching this episode, I

1786
01:35:10,000 --> 01:35:13,960
Speaker 1: always assumed that this was sly reappropriating that line, which

1787
01:35:14,000 --> 01:35:16,960
Speaker 1: was really interesting by two white guys in a black

1788
01:35:17,040 --> 01:35:20,280
Speaker 1: musical idiom yeah, and presented in this new era in

1789
01:35:20,320 --> 01:35:23,080
Speaker 1: the early seventies in a context that was totally different.

1790
01:35:23,560 --> 01:35:25,280
Speaker 1: And I know this kind of seems like a stretch,

1791
01:35:25,280 --> 01:35:27,000
Speaker 1: and I'm so sorry to keep bringing them up, but

1792
01:35:27,080 --> 01:35:30,639
Speaker 1: this time it's relevant. The Beach Boys, during their very

1793
01:35:30,680 --> 01:35:34,519
Speaker 1: brief politicized period in the early seventies, released a song

1794
01:35:35,040 --> 01:35:37,720
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy one before There's a Riote Going On

1795
01:35:38,320 --> 01:35:41,040
Speaker 1: Sli's album came out. It was a rewrite, a write

1796
01:35:41,040 --> 01:35:44,720
Speaker 1: in Cell Block number nine called Student Demonstration Time. They

1797
01:35:44,800 --> 01:35:46,800
Speaker 1: just took the yeah, I know, it was a Mike

1798
01:35:46,880 --> 01:35:50,000
Speaker 1: love song and they rewrote the lyrics. They saved the tune.

1799
01:35:50,040 --> 01:35:52,240
Speaker 1: It rewrote the lyrics, kind of like what they did

1800
01:35:52,320 --> 01:35:54,559
Speaker 1: with the Chuck Berry song for a Surfin USA.

1801
01:35:54,640 --> 01:35:56,439
Speaker 2: It was the same I'm making a hurry up a

1802
01:35:56,520 --> 01:35:57,479
Speaker 2: gesture with my hand.

1803
01:35:57,560 --> 01:35:59,240
Speaker 1: You make me nervous, No, no, I can't.

1804
01:36:00,640 --> 01:36:04,280
Speaker 2: The only lyrics you watch him.

1805
01:36:03,439 --> 01:36:06,840
Speaker 1: The only lyrics from the original version that remains was

1806
01:36:06,880 --> 01:36:09,439
Speaker 1: the there's a riot going on refrain. So it was

1807
01:36:09,520 --> 01:36:13,559
Speaker 1: already in the musical ether with a very popular LA

1808
01:36:13,680 --> 01:36:17,080
Speaker 1: band in this period that they took this old there's

1809
01:36:17,120 --> 01:36:20,360
Speaker 1: a riot going on phrase from the fifties and brought

1810
01:36:20,400 --> 01:36:24,640
Speaker 1: it into contemporary culture by commenting on riots and demonstrations.

1811
01:36:24,680 --> 01:36:26,840
Speaker 2: So yeah, real shame Sly's dead so we can't ask

1812
01:36:26,920 --> 01:36:28,880
Speaker 2: him if you got that title from a Beach Boys,

1813
01:36:29,280 --> 01:36:32,000
Speaker 2: I know that would have been the Scoopa damn century. Okay,

1814
01:36:32,200 --> 01:36:34,880
Speaker 2: I just or you deserved it. You deserve that one.

1815
01:36:34,960 --> 01:36:37,800
Speaker 1: Why. It's an interesting point about the meaning of this

1816
01:36:37,920 --> 01:36:42,759
Speaker 1: album title. Okay ors a response to Marvin Kay, Okay,

1817
01:36:42,800 --> 01:36:45,040
Speaker 1: what's going on with the riot going on? Fine? Maybe?

1818
01:36:45,400 --> 01:36:47,280
Speaker 1: Or it's just an obvious phrase. I don't know.

1819
01:36:47,479 --> 01:36:49,400
Speaker 2: I'm just saying that, like, do you really think Sly

1820
01:36:49,479 --> 01:36:50,759
Speaker 2: had his ear to the Beach Boys?

1821
01:36:51,080 --> 01:36:53,880
Speaker 1: I mean they were huge and they were local.

1822
01:36:54,240 --> 01:36:55,960
Speaker 2: Do you really think Sly had his ear to the

1823
01:36:55,960 --> 01:36:59,640
Speaker 2: Beach Boys for like musical ideas? Go ahead say it

1824
01:36:59,640 --> 01:37:01,799
Speaker 2: with a straight tell me with a straight face.

1825
01:37:02,000 --> 01:37:05,080
Speaker 1: Two La studio auteurs that were holed up in their

1826
01:37:05,080 --> 01:37:09,000
Speaker 1: bedrooms doing ungodly amounts of cocaine. Stop just across town.

1827
01:37:09,200 --> 01:37:13,320
Speaker 2: Stop waffling it. Stop waffling it. Ask you question Jordan.

1828
01:37:13,600 --> 01:37:17,400
Speaker 2: Do you really believe sly Stone stunts? Damn it? Do

1829
01:37:17,400 --> 01:37:18,799
Speaker 2: you really believe sly Stone?

1830
01:37:19,160 --> 01:37:19,439
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1831
01:37:19,560 --> 01:37:24,000
Speaker 2: You know in the title from a Beach Boys record, it.

1832
01:37:23,880 --> 01:37:26,519
Speaker 1: Could have sparked something for him. And I also don't

1833
01:37:26,560 --> 01:37:28,120
Speaker 1: think it would be out of the realm of possibility.

1834
01:37:28,120 --> 01:37:30,240
Speaker 1: They listened to the Beach Boys for somebody like sly

1835
01:37:30,560 --> 01:37:32,120
Speaker 1: who seemed as musically omnivorous.

1836
01:37:32,400 --> 01:37:34,479
Speaker 2: I'll agree with you there. Do you think in the

1837
01:37:34,479 --> 01:37:37,360
Speaker 2: midst of a coke fueled like nightlife that he was

1838
01:37:37,400 --> 01:37:40,360
Speaker 2: regularly tuning into the radio to catch the latest Mike

1839
01:37:40,479 --> 01:37:41,160
Speaker 2: Love number?

1840
01:37:41,439 --> 01:37:42,759
Speaker 1: Maybe he had it on eight track?

1841
01:37:45,000 --> 01:37:47,240
Speaker 2: See this is when you google it, All you get

1842
01:37:47,400 --> 01:37:50,880
Speaker 2: is Brian Wilson in sly Stone, remembering sly Stone and

1843
01:37:50,920 --> 01:37:51,599
Speaker 2: Brian Wilson.

1844
01:37:51,680 --> 01:37:54,679
Speaker 1: Well yet now after the debt, Yeah, set on Google

1845
01:37:54,760 --> 01:37:56,840
Speaker 1: set like everything before June.

1846
01:37:56,439 --> 01:37:58,320
Speaker 2: Four weeks ago and read it. Why did there seem

1847
01:37:58,320 --> 01:38:00,400
Speaker 2: to be so little fanfare when sly Stone and died

1848
01:38:00,760 --> 01:38:04,639
Speaker 2: although it must be said Brian Wilson, No, Brian Wilson live.

1849
01:38:04,760 --> 01:38:06,200
Speaker 2: Is that his official Instagram?

1850
01:38:06,320 --> 01:38:07,280
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah?

1851
01:38:07,360 --> 01:38:09,400
Speaker 2: Well, whoever's run on the socials at least posted about

1852
01:38:09,439 --> 01:38:12,000
Speaker 2: sly Yeah you think Brian told him to because they

1853
01:38:12,000 --> 01:38:14,640
Speaker 2: were such close collaborators. Did they go to a lot

1854
01:38:14,640 --> 01:38:18,120
Speaker 2: of tea together or Hamburgers? Actually? I could see them

1855
01:38:18,160 --> 01:38:21,320
Speaker 2: actually just being high as picking out on junk food together.

1856
01:38:22,360 --> 01:38:25,639
Speaker 2: Maybe there's something to this, Jordan, I withdraw my previous cruelty.

1857
01:38:26,600 --> 01:38:29,479
Speaker 2: Ryot's cover art of a red, white and black American

1858
01:38:29,520 --> 01:38:33,439
Speaker 2: flag with its stars replaced by suns was Sli's idea.

1859
01:38:33,600 --> 01:38:35,559
Speaker 1: That sounds like a very beach boy thing to do.

1860
01:38:35,920 --> 01:38:42,400
Speaker 1: They love the sun, famous sun lovers. I wanted the

1861
01:38:42,400 --> 01:38:45,320
Speaker 1: flag to truly represent people of all colors. I wanted

1862
01:38:45,320 --> 01:38:47,640
Speaker 1: the color black because it's the absence of color. I

1863
01:38:47,680 --> 01:38:50,400
Speaker 1: wanted the color white because it's the combination of all colors.

1864
01:38:50,800 --> 01:38:52,760
Speaker 1: And I wanted the color red because it represents the

1865
01:38:52,800 --> 01:38:54,200
Speaker 1: one thing all people have in common.

1866
01:38:54,640 --> 01:38:57,360
Speaker 2: Blood. I'm there with him, and then he says, I

1867
01:38:57,400 --> 01:39:00,960
Speaker 2: wanted sons instead of stars, because stars to imply searching,

1868
01:39:01,280 --> 01:39:03,519
Speaker 2: like you search for your star, And there were already

1869
01:39:03,520 --> 01:39:06,439
Speaker 2: too many stars in this world. But the sun, that's

1870
01:39:06,439 --> 01:39:09,240
Speaker 2: something that's always there looking right at you. Here's a

1871
01:39:09,320 --> 01:39:12,479
Speaker 2: wind up, and here's the pitch. Betsy Ross did the

1872
01:39:12,479 --> 01:39:14,920
Speaker 2: best she could with what she had. I thought I

1873
01:39:14,920 --> 01:39:15,599
Speaker 2: could do better.

1874
01:39:17,400 --> 01:39:21,280
Speaker 1: There he is. I like that explanation for the most part.

1875
01:39:21,360 --> 01:39:22,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's the kind of thing that some

1876
01:39:22,880 --> 01:39:24,519
Speaker 2: loopy sixties person would have thought of.

1877
01:39:24,560 --> 01:39:27,080
Speaker 1: For sure. I don't think I realized that there's no

1878
01:39:27,200 --> 01:39:29,719
Speaker 1: other text or titles on the cover at.

1879
01:39:29,600 --> 01:39:32,800
Speaker 2: All, No, which was a real, real gamesaver for all

1880
01:39:32,800 --> 01:39:35,519
Speaker 2: the people who rolled up joints on it, because she

1881
01:39:35,560 --> 01:39:36,759
Speaker 2: weren't obscrewing anything.

1882
01:39:37,880 --> 01:39:40,880
Speaker 1: I find it really funny that label executives insisted on

1883
01:39:40,960 --> 01:39:44,719
Speaker 1: adding a featuring the hit single Family Affair Sticker, which

1884
01:39:44,760 --> 01:39:48,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure really Chap slies ass well.

1885
01:39:48,040 --> 01:39:51,400
Speaker 2: The ad campaign for this album was also It was

1886
01:39:51,439 --> 01:39:54,280
Speaker 2: something like eighteen months is not that long to wait

1887
01:39:54,320 --> 01:39:57,160
Speaker 2: for a work of genius, Like that was what they

1888
01:39:57,200 --> 01:40:00,960
Speaker 2: went on for, like all the standy's and stuff, which

1889
01:40:01,560 --> 01:40:06,400
Speaker 2: you know, it's not it's not so fun fun weird.

1890
01:40:06,520 --> 01:40:09,439
Speaker 2: Later stone thing that actually comes in from this period

1891
01:40:09,520 --> 01:40:13,600
Speaker 2: is the cover of k Sara Sarah that is on Fresh.

1892
01:40:13,720 --> 01:40:17,760
Speaker 2: I believe that was included because while hanging with Terry

1893
01:40:17,760 --> 01:40:21,800
Speaker 2: Melcher Sly had met his mom Doris Day, he loved

1894
01:40:21,840 --> 01:40:24,080
Speaker 2: the song and sang it to her because he was

1895
01:40:24,120 --> 01:40:26,800
Speaker 2: a fan, and then ended up deciding to cover it later.

1896
01:40:27,160 --> 01:40:29,400
Speaker 2: There was also a rumor going around, which Sly did

1897
01:40:29,439 --> 01:40:32,960
Speaker 2: not deny, but which annoyed Doris Day that she and

1898
01:40:33,040 --> 01:40:34,160
Speaker 2: Stone were sleeping together.

1899
01:40:34,600 --> 01:40:38,280
Speaker 1: She was, by all accounts like awesome and despite her

1900
01:40:38,360 --> 01:40:41,280
Speaker 1: very squeaky clean image, kind of a badass with like

1901
01:40:41,320 --> 01:40:43,240
Speaker 1: a really wicked sense of humor. And I think she

1902
01:40:43,320 --> 01:40:45,519
Speaker 1: hung I know, shout out with Paul McCartney. I know

1903
01:40:45,680 --> 01:40:48,280
Speaker 1: she hung out with some other La rock people. I

1904
01:40:48,320 --> 01:40:51,000
Speaker 1: think maybe through her son, I don't know. Maybe she

1905
01:40:51,120 --> 01:40:53,800
Speaker 1: was a staunch animal rights activist, which I think was

1906
01:40:53,840 --> 01:40:56,080
Speaker 1: the point of connection with Paul. And there's a photo

1907
01:40:56,120 --> 01:40:58,160
Speaker 1: of her in the early seventies wearing a T shirt

1908
01:40:58,200 --> 01:41:01,519
Speaker 1: that says be kind to animals or all you, which

1909
01:41:01,560 --> 01:41:04,519
Speaker 1: I mean for you know, America's sweetheart. It's pretty good.

1910
01:41:04,800 --> 01:41:05,519
Speaker 2: It's good stuff.

1911
01:41:05,600 --> 01:41:06,360
Speaker 1: It's good stuff.

1912
01:41:06,960 --> 01:41:10,800
Speaker 2: So this and the whole auditioning women thing are pretty

1913
01:41:10,840 --> 01:41:14,240
Speaker 2: indicative of what i'll euphemistically referred to his Sly's difficulty

1914
01:41:14,400 --> 01:41:15,240
Speaker 2: with women.

1915
01:41:15,800 --> 01:41:17,320
Speaker 1: In this era, probably every era.

1916
01:41:17,840 --> 01:41:20,839
Speaker 2: Yes, he'd been involved on and off with the band's

1917
01:41:20,840 --> 01:41:24,360
Speaker 2: trumpeter and vocalist Cynthia Robinson, which no doubt played into

1918
01:41:24,360 --> 01:41:27,320
Speaker 2: his tensions with Graham, because Graham and Robinson were cousins,

1919
01:41:28,040 --> 01:41:31,400
Speaker 2: but in lighteen sixty nine, Sly had also begun a

1920
01:41:31,439 --> 01:41:34,400
Speaker 2: relationship with eighteen year old Debbie King, who worked for

1921
01:41:34,479 --> 01:41:38,400
Speaker 2: his Stone Flower record label. He would also occasionally sleep

1922
01:41:38,439 --> 01:41:41,839
Speaker 2: with Stephanie Owens, his girl Friday and kind of general

1923
01:41:42,320 --> 01:41:45,160
Speaker 2: right hand lady at the time. According to the thirty

1924
01:41:45,160 --> 01:41:48,160
Speaker 2: three and a third book on Riot, Owens once spoke

1925
01:41:48,240 --> 01:41:50,840
Speaker 2: with the mother of another eighteen year old girl whom

1926
01:41:50,880 --> 01:41:54,320
Speaker 2: Sly had slept with and introduced to PCP during the

1927
01:41:54,360 --> 01:41:58,320
Speaker 2: Riot sessions. The girl apparently had a nervous breakdown, and

1928
01:41:58,720 --> 01:42:00,920
Speaker 2: in the book it says she had to relearn how

1929
01:42:01,000 --> 01:42:03,920
Speaker 2: to talk, which I don't know if that holds water,

1930
01:42:04,000 --> 01:42:06,000
Speaker 2: but so pretty up that she was an eighteen year

1931
01:42:06,040 --> 01:42:07,120
Speaker 2: old and he gave her PCP.

1932
01:42:07,880 --> 01:42:10,559
Speaker 1: That's not a nervous breakdown, that's a stroke. That's like

1933
01:42:11,479 --> 01:42:12,880
Speaker 1: Jesus wow.

1934
01:42:14,080 --> 01:42:16,200
Speaker 2: The family Stone, as was the fashion of the time,

1935
01:42:16,320 --> 01:42:18,639
Speaker 2: did practice a lot of free love.

1936
01:42:19,760 --> 01:42:23,439
Speaker 1: It's like free jazz but naked, except more fun to

1937
01:42:23,479 --> 01:42:24,759
Speaker 1: listen to. Yours was better.

1938
01:42:25,840 --> 01:42:28,679
Speaker 2: Before the band moved to La Cynthia was also sleeping

1939
01:42:28,720 --> 01:42:31,320
Speaker 2: with Sly's brother Freddie, who was married at the time,

1940
01:42:31,920 --> 01:42:35,400
Speaker 2: and that was actually okay, though because Freddie's wife Sharon

1941
01:42:35,720 --> 01:42:39,639
Speaker 2: was sleeping with Larry Graham. Cynthia Robinson in fact, would

1942
01:42:39,680 --> 01:42:43,879
Speaker 2: later give birth to Sly's daughter, the tragically named Slide

1943
01:42:44,800 --> 01:42:48,759
Speaker 2: Silvett Silvette, Oh, Silvette Okay.

1944
01:42:49,240 --> 01:42:51,320
Speaker 1: In other words, you could say that this was a

1945
01:42:52,520 --> 01:42:53,960
Speaker 1: don't do it family affair.

1946
01:42:54,240 --> 01:42:57,559
Speaker 2: Don't do it. We almost made it through the whole record. Yeah,

1947
01:42:57,600 --> 01:43:01,000
Speaker 2: things got so bad for Stephanie Owens. She called the

1948
01:43:01,000 --> 01:43:04,559
Speaker 2: band's acting manager, Ken Roberts and begged for a cab

1949
01:43:04,640 --> 01:43:08,280
Speaker 2: and two hundred dollars and fled. Wow, like in the

1950
01:43:08,360 --> 01:43:11,080
Speaker 2: middle of the night, like getting to the airport, Like Mom,

1951
01:43:11,160 --> 01:43:13,160
Speaker 2: meet me when I'm coming home.

1952
01:43:13,560 --> 01:43:16,920
Speaker 1: Tina Turner fleeing Ike, Ronnie fleeing Phil. Yeah.

1953
01:43:17,000 --> 01:43:19,639
Speaker 2: A lot of women, a lot of women flee men.

1954
01:43:20,720 --> 01:43:28,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. I went to pack that. No, No, this went

1955
01:43:28,160 --> 01:43:31,439
Speaker 1: down long after the Riot sessions. But I'd be remiss

1956
01:43:31,560 --> 01:43:35,240
Speaker 1: not to mention Sly's wedding to Kathy Silva that occurred

1957
01:43:35,240 --> 01:43:38,000
Speaker 1: on stage during a sold out Madison Square Gardens show

1958
01:43:38,000 --> 01:43:41,000
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy four in front of twenty one thousand

1959
01:43:41,640 --> 01:43:45,960
Speaker 1: very surprised fans. It remains perhaps one of the cokeiest

1960
01:43:45,960 --> 01:43:49,320
Speaker 1: events to ever take place. Sly's mother came on stage

1961
01:43:49,320 --> 01:43:51,519
Speaker 1: for the event, and the bride and groom wore gold

1962
01:43:51,600 --> 01:43:55,720
Speaker 1: lamey outfits designed by the famous designer Halston Futures for

1963
01:43:57,400 --> 01:44:00,479
Speaker 1: Icon Halston and the ceremony was a fish hited by

1964
01:44:00,520 --> 01:44:05,519
Speaker 1: Soul Train host DoD Cornelius. Yes, and then they wanted

1965
01:44:05,560 --> 01:44:08,479
Speaker 1: to have I think somebody dressed as an angel descend

1966
01:44:08,560 --> 01:44:11,120
Speaker 1: from the ceiling on a bunch of doves, but the

1967
01:44:11,160 --> 01:44:15,000
Speaker 1: insurance was prohibitive so they couldn't do it. And then

1968
01:44:15,160 --> 01:44:17,800
Speaker 1: after the ceremony took place, Sli in the Family Stone

1969
01:44:17,800 --> 01:44:25,280
Speaker 1: played a concert. Their marriage lasted five months, Oh.

1970
01:44:26,160 --> 01:44:31,040
Speaker 2: Well, perhaps appropriately. Riot opens with love and hate, hate

1971
01:44:31,120 --> 01:44:33,600
Speaker 2: being spelled like the hate Ashbury District in San Francisco,

1972
01:44:34,080 --> 01:44:35,800
Speaker 2: and the first thing you hear on the track is

1973
01:44:35,960 --> 01:44:39,320
Speaker 2: not the sound of Larry Graham, but of Sly ticking

1974
01:44:39,360 --> 01:44:42,080
Speaker 2: off a fore count with his pick on the base.

1975
01:44:42,800 --> 01:44:45,840
Speaker 2: And between that and the narcotic haze of lyrics, which

1976
01:44:45,880 --> 01:44:49,000
Speaker 2: consist entirely of variations on the phrase feels so good

1977
01:44:49,040 --> 01:44:52,720
Speaker 2: inside myself, don't need to move, it's very clear from

1978
01:44:52,760 --> 01:44:56,040
Speaker 2: the jump this is a different Family Stone record. Sly

1979
01:44:56,160 --> 01:44:59,320
Speaker 2: and experimented with extreme stereo panning as early as sing

1980
01:44:59,360 --> 01:45:03,559
Speaker 2: a simple song, but it is very apparent on this record,

1981
01:45:03,560 --> 01:45:06,360
Speaker 2: and particularly Love and Hate, where he has Rose Stone,

1982
01:45:06,360 --> 01:45:09,400
Speaker 2: who's the only backup vocalist doing call and response vocals

1983
01:45:09,439 --> 01:45:14,040
Speaker 2: with herself across both stereo channels. He really went nuts

1984
01:45:14,040 --> 01:45:16,680
Speaker 2: with this stuff. There's a track on Fresh that I

1985
01:45:16,720 --> 01:45:22,000
Speaker 2: stumbled into onto recently that is like a panning nightmare.

1986
01:45:22,120 --> 01:45:26,640
Speaker 2: It is mixed so weirdly, like the drums are super upfront,

1987
01:45:26,760 --> 01:45:30,000
Speaker 2: everything else is panned hard around it, and I think

1988
01:45:30,040 --> 01:45:32,719
Speaker 2: the bass is going back and forth between the two channels.

1989
01:45:32,960 --> 01:45:34,240
Speaker 2: But this kind of plays into the next thing that

1990
01:45:34,240 --> 01:45:36,120
Speaker 2: I want to talk about, which is a characteristic of

1991
01:45:36,200 --> 01:45:40,080
Speaker 2: slies arrangements that's called hacketing. It was formalized as a

1992
01:45:40,120 --> 01:45:43,360
Speaker 2: practice medieval chanting, and what hocketing essentially is is when

1993
01:45:43,439 --> 01:45:45,840
Speaker 2: you split up a melody or a single line between

1994
01:45:45,920 --> 01:45:50,400
Speaker 2: multiple singers, as opposed to having singers in unison seeing

1995
01:45:50,479 --> 01:45:53,000
Speaker 2: the same line. Hocketing is when someone will sing the

1996
01:45:53,040 --> 01:45:55,040
Speaker 2: first part of a phrase, another singer will jump in,

1997
01:45:55,200 --> 01:45:58,240
Speaker 2: maybe the first person comes back, or it just continues on.

1998
01:45:58,400 --> 01:46:01,599
Speaker 2: And that's applicable to not just voices but instruments as well,

1999
01:46:02,120 --> 01:46:04,840
Speaker 2: and even though it's been Like I said, it's attributed

2000
01:46:04,880 --> 01:46:08,599
Speaker 2: to the medieval monk chanting practices. There's a book called

2001
01:46:08,640 --> 01:46:11,720
Speaker 2: Echoes of Our Forgotten Ancestors by a musicologist named doctor

2002
01:46:11,800 --> 01:46:15,879
Speaker 2: Victor Grauer who actually traces that practice back to African

2003
01:46:15,960 --> 01:46:19,959
Speaker 2: music from eighty thousand years ago, like Central African pygmies

2004
01:46:20,000 --> 01:46:23,320
Speaker 2: and forest the bushmen of the Kalahari Desert. So it's

2005
01:46:23,400 --> 01:46:26,400
Speaker 2: crazy that, like this is a thing that people now

2006
01:46:26,479 --> 01:46:28,960
Speaker 2: think of as like a medieval music practice was actually

2007
01:46:29,320 --> 01:46:33,560
Speaker 2: closer to Slide than it was the European.

2008
01:46:33,080 --> 01:46:36,240
Speaker 1: Monks eighty thousand Slide.

2009
01:46:36,280 --> 01:46:40,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, Slide did this with both vocals and instruments. Yeah.

2010
01:46:40,840 --> 01:46:44,120
Speaker 2: So the track in Time from Riots follow up Fresh

2011
01:46:44,320 --> 01:46:49,160
Speaker 2: does this with every instrument. Horns, guitar, and keys are

2012
01:46:49,200 --> 01:46:54,040
Speaker 2: playing these minute, little rhythmic stabs across both stereo fields,

2013
01:46:54,120 --> 01:46:58,200
Speaker 2: pingponging back and forth to create this one interlocking sound.

2014
01:46:58,800 --> 01:47:02,439
Speaker 2: And it's crazy. It's hard, it's hard to explain until

2015
01:47:02,439 --> 01:47:04,880
Speaker 2: you hear it. There's a great video of the guy

2016
01:47:04,920 --> 01:47:07,200
Speaker 2: from the Dirty Projectors explaining how he does it and

2017
01:47:07,240 --> 01:47:11,080
Speaker 2: having the band that his two backing vocalists at the

2018
01:47:11,120 --> 01:47:14,000
Speaker 2: time perform it. You know, one of them is playing

2019
01:47:14,400 --> 01:47:16,120
Speaker 2: like on the up singing on the upbeats.

2020
01:47:16,120 --> 01:47:20,640
Speaker 1: She's like, oh, and then they opened a track on

2021
01:47:20,640 --> 01:47:23,600
Speaker 1: that one big album, beck a Mess or whatever it

2022
01:47:23,640 --> 01:47:24,000
Speaker 1: was called.

2023
01:47:24,080 --> 01:47:27,040
Speaker 2: No, that's grisly bear bit bit to Orca, I think

2024
01:47:27,040 --> 01:47:29,840
Speaker 2: you're talking about. But yeah, they and and then the

2025
01:47:29,880 --> 01:47:31,640
Speaker 2: other woman comes in with a different part that's on

2026
01:47:31,720 --> 01:47:35,040
Speaker 2: the down beats, and so they form one track. But yeah,

2027
01:47:35,120 --> 01:47:38,960
Speaker 2: check out in time to hear how bat he really

2028
01:47:39,000 --> 01:47:40,960
Speaker 2: went with it. But on right, I don't think he

2029
01:47:41,000 --> 01:47:43,960
Speaker 2: has it fully dialed in, by which I mean, it's

2030
01:47:44,040 --> 01:47:49,280
Speaker 2: just just pans back and forth. And really it's very confusing, actually,

2031
01:47:50,160 --> 01:47:53,000
Speaker 2: but it's neat. It's a neat thing that I think

2032
01:47:53,040 --> 01:47:54,920
Speaker 2: you needed to know about. So I wrote it down

2033
01:47:54,920 --> 01:47:55,800
Speaker 2: and I read it to you.

2034
01:47:56,720 --> 01:47:58,519
Speaker 1: Well, I just went and listened to the end time

2035
01:47:59,120 --> 01:48:00,599
Speaker 1: and you're right, it's pretty wild.

2036
01:48:01,240 --> 01:48:04,360
Speaker 2: It's quite disorienting. Like I don't know, I mean, I

2037
01:48:04,360 --> 01:48:06,519
Speaker 2: don't know if anyone was checking these after the fact,

2038
01:48:06,560 --> 01:48:08,840
Speaker 2: but the fact that no one was like, yeah, that's

2039
01:48:08,840 --> 01:48:10,040
Speaker 2: the one you want to go inside.

2040
01:48:10,120 --> 01:48:13,000
Speaker 1: It's like the audio equivalent of you remember those like

2041
01:48:13,439 --> 01:48:16,720
Speaker 1: home planetariums say more about that. It's just like a

2042
01:48:16,760 --> 01:48:18,760
Speaker 1: plastic dome with a bunch of little holes in it,

2043
01:48:18,760 --> 01:48:20,720
Speaker 1: and they project up in the ceiling, like do you

2044
01:48:20,760 --> 01:48:24,000
Speaker 1: see all the little like okay, constellations and lights and everything.

2045
01:48:24,240 --> 01:48:26,920
Speaker 1: It's like that in the stereo field, just like little

2046
01:48:27,000 --> 01:48:31,800
Speaker 1: points of sound. Yeah, three sixty coming at you in

2047
01:48:31,920 --> 01:48:33,320
Speaker 1: random spurts.

2048
01:48:33,840 --> 01:48:36,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I mean again, it's that's the one that

2049
01:48:36,240 --> 01:48:38,479
Speaker 2: I think. So that's not on this record, but a

2050
01:48:38,479 --> 01:48:45,880
Speaker 2: lot of the painting, like and stereotity is doing. Finish

2051
01:48:45,920 --> 01:48:48,880
Speaker 2: my sentence, Jesus Christ, I'm killing me. Go to your

2052
01:48:48,880 --> 01:48:49,400
Speaker 2: love and hate.

2053
01:48:50,800 --> 01:48:53,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. The title love and Hate is admittedly just for

2054
01:48:53,360 --> 01:48:56,880
Speaker 1: anyone who missed the pun as a reference to the

2055
01:48:56,960 --> 01:48:59,719
Speaker 1: hippie mecha hate Ashbury, which had once been a place

2056
01:48:59,760 --> 01:49:04,879
Speaker 1: of pilgrimage for free thinkers and idealists, you know, Rubes.

2057
01:49:06,320 --> 01:49:09,320
Speaker 1: And there's a bitterness in Slyes song that's, you know,

2058
01:49:09,400 --> 01:49:12,080
Speaker 1: hard to ignore because the focus of the song is drugs,

2059
01:49:12,120 --> 01:49:14,959
Speaker 1: which was a common musical theme in the late sixties.

2060
01:49:15,240 --> 01:49:18,040
Speaker 1: But instead of being about mind expansion, which they tended

2061
01:49:18,080 --> 01:49:20,880
Speaker 1: to be in that era, this song is just about hedonism.

2062
01:49:21,520 --> 01:49:24,120
Speaker 1: And that's kind of the general theme of this album

2063
01:49:24,280 --> 01:49:28,559
Speaker 1: is not mind expansion, but just getting numb. Yeah, lyrics

2064
01:49:28,600 --> 01:49:31,679
Speaker 1: like feel so good inside myself, don't want to move

2065
01:49:32,680 --> 01:49:35,400
Speaker 1: have more than a bit of truth. I mean, Slide

2066
01:49:35,439 --> 01:49:37,599
Speaker 1: did a lot of takes for this record while literally

2067
01:49:37,640 --> 01:49:38,280
Speaker 1: lying in bed.

2068
01:49:39,000 --> 01:49:44,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's a great thesis statement in

2069
01:49:44,200 --> 01:49:45,240
Speaker 2: a way that it shouldn't be.

2070
01:49:45,760 --> 01:49:48,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, he.

2071
01:49:48,520 --> 01:49:51,679
Speaker 2: Initially wanted Love and Hate to be Rite's lead single,

2072
01:49:51,800 --> 01:49:54,720
Speaker 2: which Epic obviously was like are you out of your

2073
01:49:54,880 --> 01:49:57,920
Speaker 2: damn mind? And he was the second cut, just like

2074
01:49:57,960 --> 01:49:59,880
Speaker 2: A Baby would have been a better choice, since my

2075
01:50:00,000 --> 01:50:02,000
Speaker 2: favorite song on the album. It is just straight up

2076
01:50:02,160 --> 01:50:05,080
Speaker 2: baby makeing music. It is so sexy and it's just

2077
01:50:05,160 --> 01:50:09,680
Speaker 2: Sly and Bobby Womack. Sly's drumming, he's playing clavinet, and

2078
01:50:09,760 --> 01:50:13,080
Speaker 2: Womack comes in and harmonizes. That's him playing guitar. But

2079
01:50:13,240 --> 01:50:15,800
Speaker 2: as I mentioned earlier, stuff like this is a real,

2080
01:50:16,120 --> 01:50:18,679
Speaker 2: i think sonic template for some of the D'Angelo stuff

2081
01:50:18,680 --> 01:50:20,320
Speaker 2: that I was talking about, where it is just this

2082
01:50:20,400 --> 01:50:23,680
Speaker 2: kind of groove and then there's just all of these

2083
01:50:23,720 --> 01:50:27,200
Speaker 2: different layers of vocals that are coming in and I mean,

2084
01:50:28,000 --> 01:50:30,880
Speaker 2: you know that stuff is hard, even when you're doing

2085
01:50:30,960 --> 01:50:34,400
Speaker 2: it in a rat like this ramshackle ragtag way. So

2086
01:50:35,040 --> 01:50:37,680
Speaker 2: it's cool that is managing all of that. But I

2087
01:50:37,680 --> 01:50:39,240
Speaker 2: do want to point out that if you listen to

2088
01:50:39,240 --> 01:50:42,519
Speaker 2: this on headphones, particularly like a good like lossless or remaster,

2089
01:50:42,920 --> 01:50:46,360
Speaker 2: there's like a drum stool or a chair squeaking that

2090
01:50:46,520 --> 01:50:49,120
Speaker 2: was never bothered to like be addressed. I think it's

2091
01:50:49,120 --> 01:50:52,160
Speaker 2: the drum stool or possibly the kick pedal, because there's

2092
01:50:52,200 --> 01:50:55,880
Speaker 2: a brand of the Ludwig kickdrum pedal that was popular

2093
01:50:55,920 --> 01:51:00,120
Speaker 2: with this time, from everybody to James Brown band to

2094
01:51:00,680 --> 01:51:03,680
Speaker 2: I think it was Clyde Stubblefield the drummer, but I

2095
01:51:03,720 --> 01:51:08,440
Speaker 2: know also John Bottom used this kit. The kick mechanism

2096
01:51:08,920 --> 01:51:11,400
Speaker 2: that you step on to make it go was so

2097
01:51:11,560 --> 01:51:14,920
Speaker 2: notoriously squeaky that you can hear it in the James

2098
01:51:15,000 --> 01:51:17,800
Speaker 2: Brown records. You can hear it on certain Zeppelin tracks

2099
01:51:17,840 --> 01:51:20,519
Speaker 2: when he's really working it in like I hear think,

2100
01:51:20,520 --> 01:51:22,840
Speaker 2: you hear good times, bad times because it's just the

2101
01:51:22,920 --> 01:51:24,680
Speaker 2: drum break with the double kick and you can hear

2102
01:51:24,680 --> 01:51:27,000
Speaker 2: this squeaking sound into it. So it's just one of

2103
01:51:27,000 --> 01:51:29,280
Speaker 2: those like studio easter eggs that once you hear it,

2104
01:51:29,320 --> 01:51:31,679
Speaker 2: you can be your weird dickhead music friend who's like, hey,

2105
01:51:32,080 --> 01:51:34,839
Speaker 2: you hear that. That's a drum stool squeaking or whatever,

2106
01:51:35,840 --> 01:51:37,160
Speaker 2: you know, and we like to give that to you.

2107
01:51:37,200 --> 01:51:39,000
Speaker 1: Guys. We'd like to have fun here.

2108
01:51:39,280 --> 01:51:42,600
Speaker 2: We like to have fun here. Poet is the first

2109
01:51:42,880 --> 01:51:46,360
Speaker 2: all Sly track to appear on Riot, and it probably

2110
01:51:46,360 --> 01:51:49,679
Speaker 2: sounds familiar to children of the nineties or eighties because

2111
01:51:49,720 --> 01:51:52,559
Speaker 2: Dala Soul sampled it on description from three feet High

2112
01:51:52,560 --> 01:51:55,439
Speaker 2: and Rising. We'll get into the hip hop sampling history

2113
01:51:55,479 --> 01:51:58,799
Speaker 2: of this record later. It's another just kind of general

2114
01:51:58,960 --> 01:52:02,080
Speaker 2: meander on a groove. It's just kind of funny for

2115
01:52:02,160 --> 01:52:05,240
Speaker 2: this one because I found a quote from Larry Graham

2116
01:52:05,360 --> 01:52:07,960
Speaker 2: where he was, like, the song on Riot called Poet

2117
01:52:08,479 --> 01:52:12,439
Speaker 2: bad tune as in complimentary, But what would that song

2118
01:52:12,439 --> 01:52:14,360
Speaker 2: have sounded like if he played that for us in

2119
01:52:14,400 --> 01:52:17,760
Speaker 2: the studio? Imagine what might have been. Which is this

2120
01:52:17,880 --> 01:52:20,760
Speaker 2: so sad that, like Larry Graham in the midst of

2121
01:52:21,520 --> 01:52:23,720
Speaker 2: his relationship dissolving to the point where I don't think

2122
01:52:23,760 --> 01:52:24,759
Speaker 2: they spoke again.

2123
01:52:24,960 --> 01:52:26,479
Speaker 1: I was gonna ask if they ever met up.

2124
01:52:26,560 --> 01:52:30,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly for years if ever, but was still listening

2125
01:52:30,680 --> 01:52:33,040
Speaker 2: to this stuff and going, God, I wish he'd let

2126
01:52:33,040 --> 01:52:34,880
Speaker 2: the rest of the band have a crack at that.

2127
01:52:34,880 --> 01:52:39,400
Speaker 2: That was a good song, very poignant. The album's actual

2128
01:52:39,439 --> 01:52:42,000
Speaker 2: lead single, Family Affairs up next. It went to number

2129
01:52:42,040 --> 01:52:45,640
Speaker 2: one on Billboard, and it's success meant that Sli's wildly

2130
01:52:45,760 --> 01:52:48,600
Speaker 2: experimental stuff now at least had provable results, which I

2131
01:52:48,600 --> 01:52:53,640
Speaker 2: think maybe backfired him a little on Fresh Shot. The

2132
01:52:53,680 --> 01:52:56,479
Speaker 2: stereo panning in this one, though, is actually stable, and

2133
01:52:56,520 --> 01:52:59,160
Speaker 2: it's really interesting how low Sli's guitar is in the

2134
01:52:59,240 --> 01:53:02,479
Speaker 2: right channel. That's Billy Preston playing electric piano on the left.

2135
01:53:02,880 --> 01:53:05,280
Speaker 2: And the vocals on this one's Slide's vocals are so

2136
01:53:06,120 --> 01:53:10,240
Speaker 2: upfront and dry. There's not a lot of reverb on them,

2137
01:53:10,240 --> 01:53:13,559
Speaker 2: if any, across this record, and that was I think

2138
01:53:13,560 --> 01:53:15,879
Speaker 2: it's a mix of two things. One it's Mike placement,

2139
01:53:16,000 --> 01:53:18,519
Speaker 2: like he's definitely up here on the mic a lot

2140
01:53:18,520 --> 01:53:22,200
Speaker 2: of the time. And two is that the engineer who

2141
01:53:22,280 --> 01:53:25,240
Speaker 2: is working on this, Tom Fly, who worked on Fresh

2142
01:53:25,360 --> 01:53:27,880
Speaker 2: Tom Fly, said that Slidelight the sound to come and

2143
01:53:27,920 --> 01:53:30,479
Speaker 2: go quickly. If you were equing it, he'd want to

2144
01:53:30,479 --> 01:53:32,240
Speaker 2: go for the heart of the sound and get rid

2145
01:53:32,280 --> 01:53:35,280
Speaker 2: of the rest of this. So no decay, no, no,

2146
01:53:35,600 --> 01:53:38,200
Speaker 2: Without actually knowing what he's talking about as far as equing.

2147
01:53:38,320 --> 01:53:40,720
Speaker 2: I suspect that means that they didn't spend a lot

2148
01:53:40,720 --> 01:53:44,599
Speaker 2: of time sculpting the low end or high end, because

2149
01:53:44,600 --> 01:53:47,200
Speaker 2: some of his vocals have what's called like a boxy

2150
01:53:47,360 --> 01:53:50,040
Speaker 2: quality to them, like it's a shorthand for getting, like

2151
01:53:50,040 --> 01:53:52,599
Speaker 2: an old timey radio sound where you pull out all

2152
01:53:52,640 --> 01:53:54,400
Speaker 2: the lows and highs and all you get is mids.

2153
01:53:54,880 --> 01:53:56,320
Speaker 2: And I can hear that on some of the vocal

2154
01:53:56,360 --> 01:53:58,160
Speaker 2: tracks here, So I think that just means that, like

2155
01:53:59,439 --> 01:54:01,360
Speaker 2: once he has had a vocal sound, he was like,

2156
01:54:01,360 --> 01:54:04,000
Speaker 2: I'm not echuing vocals anymore. I have seventy more tracks

2157
01:54:04,040 --> 01:54:06,400
Speaker 2: to put on, you know, but you can also there's

2158
01:54:06,400 --> 01:54:08,559
Speaker 2: another tracks and other fun examples because you can hear

2159
01:54:08,640 --> 01:54:12,840
Speaker 2: the Maestro also heavily eq just kind of clicking away

2160
01:54:12,840 --> 01:54:16,439
Speaker 2: in the background under the other drum track. God, he

2161
01:54:16,520 --> 01:54:18,600
Speaker 2: loved that thing to me.

2162
01:54:18,920 --> 01:54:22,320
Speaker 1: Family Affairs the inverse of Everyday People because it's one

2163
01:54:22,360 --> 01:54:26,479
Speaker 1: of Sli's most emotionally subdued and cynical tracks. It explores

2164
01:54:26,560 --> 01:54:32,120
Speaker 1: dysfunctional family dynamics, including sibling rivalry, marital tension, and generational disconnect.

2165
01:54:32,200 --> 01:54:33,400
Speaker 2: And that was the party song.

2166
01:54:33,560 --> 01:54:38,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was the it the lyrics reflected the collapse

2167
01:54:38,000 --> 01:54:40,880
Speaker 1: of the nineteen sixties utopian ideal by suggesting that the

2168
01:54:40,920 --> 01:54:46,440
Speaker 1: struggles within a family and by extension of society are inevitable, complicated,

2169
01:54:47,120 --> 01:54:51,440
Speaker 1: and often unresolvable. Ooh, he sings, one child grows up

2170
01:54:51,480 --> 01:54:54,680
Speaker 1: to be somebody that just learns to love. Another child

2171
01:54:54,720 --> 01:54:57,760
Speaker 1: grows up to be somebody you just love to burn

2172
01:54:58,560 --> 01:55:03,600
Speaker 1: frames love and pain inescapable coexisting forces. And of course

2173
01:55:03,680 --> 01:55:06,320
Speaker 1: the line you can't leave because your heart is there,

2174
01:55:06,800 --> 01:55:11,480
Speaker 1: but you can't stay is devastatingly familiar to anyone who

2175
01:55:11,480 --> 01:55:15,240
Speaker 1: has family issues. Like in thank You for Talking to

2176
01:55:15,240 --> 01:55:18,680
Speaker 1: Me Africa, Sly sings in a flat, tired, world weary

2177
01:55:18,720 --> 01:55:21,920
Speaker 1: tone and giving the fractures within his group. It's hard

2178
01:55:22,000 --> 01:55:25,840
Speaker 1: not to take this song as pretty much autobiographical. Sister

2179
01:55:25,960 --> 01:55:29,560
Speaker 1: Rose Stone, his actual sister, sings the chorus, providing the

2180
01:55:29,600 --> 01:55:33,280
Speaker 1: only trace of the traditional family Stone vocal interplay, and

2181
01:55:33,360 --> 01:55:36,640
Speaker 1: those Sly himself will deny this. Sly's manager later told

2182
01:55:36,760 --> 01:55:39,520
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone that Family Affair was the story of Sly's

2183
01:55:39,520 --> 01:55:42,200
Speaker 1: own life, which is being cut up by the factions

2184
01:55:42,200 --> 01:55:46,800
Speaker 1: that surrounded him in his stardom. Slies Take Meanwhile as

2185
01:55:46,840 --> 01:55:50,920
Speaker 1: as follows songs not about that, Songs about a family affair,

2186
01:55:51,120 --> 01:55:54,280
Speaker 1: whether it's a result of genetic processes or a situation

2187
01:55:54,440 --> 01:55:55,240
Speaker 1: in the environment.

2188
01:55:55,600 --> 01:55:58,680
Speaker 2: I like sort of ascribing his like his later Druggy

2189
01:55:58,760 --> 01:56:01,400
Speaker 2: quotes to like the member of like a feed up

2190
01:56:01,440 --> 01:56:03,880
Speaker 2: John Carpenter, like, song's not about that.

2191
01:56:04,320 --> 01:56:07,000
Speaker 1: I was actually gonna say, David Lynch, not about that.

2192
01:56:07,960 --> 01:56:09,040
Speaker 2: The song's not about that?

2193
01:56:09,440 --> 01:56:14,040
Speaker 1: What what I don't think we've done to David Lynch?

2194
01:56:14,080 --> 01:56:21,840
Speaker 2: Since all right, yeah, no, no, I don't think so.

2195
01:56:22,200 --> 01:56:26,320
Speaker 1: I don't like that. What the guns in the toilet tank?

2196
01:56:27,680 --> 01:56:31,839
Speaker 2: We like to have fun here. Next up is Africa

2197
01:56:31,880 --> 01:56:34,760
Speaker 2: Talks to You, another song heavily undergirded by the Maestro.

2198
01:56:35,360 --> 01:56:40,520
Speaker 2: It's nearly nine minutes of coalescing and disintegrating groove, voices

2199
01:56:40,560 --> 01:56:43,440
Speaker 2: and instruments coming in and out, breaking things down, building

2200
01:56:43,440 --> 01:56:48,320
Speaker 2: them back up. Friends become enemies, enemies become friends musically again.

2201
01:56:48,440 --> 01:56:52,320
Speaker 2: Slies lyrics are difficult to understand, but seem actually quite

2202
01:56:52,440 --> 01:56:56,200
Speaker 2: impression in the review mirror Who's believing? Who who's doing

2203
01:56:56,240 --> 01:56:58,560
Speaker 2: the fishing? Do what you want to do? Or you

2204
01:56:58,600 --> 01:57:01,720
Speaker 2: can keep on fishing? Be about drugs, could be about fishing,

2205
01:57:01,880 --> 01:57:05,440
Speaker 2: Probably about drugs. Probably not about fishing. Although there are

2206
01:57:05,480 --> 01:57:08,200
Speaker 2: female voices on the track. If Sly is the only

2207
01:57:08,240 --> 01:57:12,640
Speaker 2: person playing keys, guitar and bass, he's essentially pitting all

2208
01:57:12,680 --> 01:57:17,240
Speaker 2: of them against each other for fills and solos. It's

2209
01:57:18,280 --> 01:57:21,480
Speaker 2: quite a literal picture of a man fighting against himself,

2210
01:57:21,760 --> 01:57:25,280
Speaker 2: and according to Sly biographer Anthony Santiago, the lyrics depict

2211
01:57:25,400 --> 01:57:30,440
Speaker 2: quote fame and its cold retrogression into perceived insanity, with

2212
01:57:30,520 --> 01:57:33,800
Speaker 2: a chorus that reflects quote Sly's feelings on being cut

2213
01:57:33,840 --> 01:57:35,919
Speaker 2: down in his prime like a tree in the forest.

2214
01:57:37,360 --> 01:57:39,440
Speaker 2: That's an extremely literal reading of the fact that they

2215
01:57:39,560 --> 01:57:42,560
Speaker 2: just repeat timber like a hundred times in this song.

2216
01:57:42,720 --> 01:57:47,080
Speaker 2: But good read man the simple explanation of the title track,

2217
01:57:47,120 --> 01:57:50,720
Speaker 2: which leads offside too and is silent and runs four

2218
01:57:50,760 --> 01:57:54,480
Speaker 2: seconds digitally, with Sly saying I felt that there should

2219
01:57:54,520 --> 01:58:00,280
Speaker 2: be no more riots. Clean concise achievable for a while.

2220
01:58:00,000 --> 01:58:02,360
Speaker 2: People though, thought it was a response to a free

2221
01:58:02,400 --> 01:58:04,600
Speaker 2: concert that Sla in the Family Stone had been slated

2222
01:58:04,600 --> 01:58:07,920
Speaker 2: to play Chicago's Grant Park on July twenty seventh, nineteen seventy.

2223
01:58:08,440 --> 01:58:11,040
Speaker 2: The concert was intended as a dual show of goodwill

2224
01:58:11,120 --> 01:58:13,800
Speaker 2: both from the city to its youths and from the

2225
01:58:13,800 --> 01:58:19,160
Speaker 2: band to Chicago to make up for its previously canceled shows. Unfortunately,

2226
01:58:19,400 --> 01:58:22,200
Speaker 2: things disintegrated into a riot in which one hundred and

2227
01:58:22,240 --> 01:58:24,600
Speaker 2: sixty two people were injured, including one hundred and twenty

2228
01:58:24,600 --> 01:58:27,480
Speaker 2: six police officers. Three young people were shot, although it

2229
01:58:27,520 --> 01:58:30,800
Speaker 2: wasn't clear by whom. Cars were overturned in set of Blaze,

2230
01:58:30,920 --> 01:58:34,480
Speaker 2: and a mob tore through the Loop neighborhood looting, resulting

2231
01:58:34,520 --> 01:58:39,320
Speaker 2: in one hundred and sixty arrests. However, Sly associate Stephanie

2232
01:58:39,400 --> 01:58:41,760
Speaker 2: Owens of the fleeing the house in the middle of

2233
01:58:41,800 --> 01:58:44,520
Speaker 2: the night fame said that while the band's lateness was

2234
01:58:44,560 --> 01:58:46,920
Speaker 2: publicly blamed for the riot, they arrived to have it

2235
01:58:47,120 --> 01:58:50,640
Speaker 2: already in place. There been other bands playing, and tensions

2236
01:58:50,640 --> 01:58:52,640
Speaker 2: between the crowd and the cops that were lining the

2237
01:58:52,640 --> 01:58:55,840
Speaker 2: stage and staffing. The event simply boiled over, which is

2238
01:58:55,840 --> 01:58:58,200
Speaker 2: something that Jerry Martini says in the same oral history.

2239
01:58:58,520 --> 01:59:01,080
Speaker 2: He also suggests that Chicago made Richard Daley had no

2240
01:59:01,160 --> 01:59:04,240
Speaker 2: intention of ever throwing such an event again and simply

2241
01:59:04,320 --> 01:59:08,000
Speaker 2: scapegoated Sly, which made an easy target due to his reputation.

2242
01:59:08,560 --> 01:59:10,080
Speaker 2: Any thoughts, no, I.

2243
01:59:10,000 --> 01:59:12,480
Speaker 1: Mean Dick Daily is the He was in charge of

2244
01:59:12,560 --> 01:59:16,560
Speaker 1: Chicago during the Democratic National Convention riots in sixty eight.

2245
01:59:16,720 --> 01:59:19,320
Speaker 2: So it bad riots.

2246
01:59:19,440 --> 01:59:21,600
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, he's kind of the which is sort of

2247
01:59:21,600 --> 01:59:26,800
Speaker 1: the archetypical sixties riot. I want to yeah, so yeah, oh.

2248
01:59:26,800 --> 01:59:29,040
Speaker 2: Top sixties riots ranked. We should do that.

2249
01:59:32,600 --> 01:59:35,320
Speaker 1: I did listen to something today that talks about how

2250
01:59:35,400 --> 01:59:37,840
Speaker 1: well you know in certain sectors. Nineteen sixty seven, the

2251
01:59:37,840 --> 01:59:41,160
Speaker 1: summer sixty seven was called the Summer of Love. In

2252
01:59:41,200 --> 01:59:43,560
Speaker 1: others it was just known as the long Hot Summer

2253
01:59:43,640 --> 01:59:46,360
Speaker 1: because there were one hundred and fifty nine race riots

2254
01:59:46,400 --> 01:59:50,600
Speaker 1: that summer alone. In Detroit there was a riot after

2255
01:59:50,680 --> 01:59:53,680
Speaker 1: and after hours bar was raided, and in Newark cops

2256
01:59:53,720 --> 01:59:57,480
Speaker 1: assaulted a cabby and the city went up in flames.

2257
01:59:58,120 --> 02:00:00,320
Speaker 2: This was the one that James Brown broke up.

2258
02:00:00,840 --> 02:00:03,840
Speaker 1: Oh I think I think it was bost I want

2259
02:00:03,880 --> 02:00:08,200
Speaker 1: to say, yeah, I think it was a Boston riot. Yeah,

2260
02:00:08,400 --> 02:00:11,240
Speaker 1: possibly after MLK was killed it was.

2261
02:00:11,560 --> 02:00:14,480
Speaker 2: And yeah, and he was like, Watts riot, Rot's.

2262
02:00:14,320 --> 02:00:16,680
Speaker 1: Riot is made, Okay, d n C sixty eight is

2263
02:00:16,760 --> 02:00:18,600
Speaker 1: number one. Watts riot SATs.

2264
02:00:20,880 --> 02:00:22,360
Speaker 2: This is very cynical of this idea.

2265
02:00:22,400 --> 02:00:26,000
Speaker 1: I mean, in seriousness, we'll get used to it.

2266
02:00:26,120 --> 02:00:32,120
Speaker 2: Pitch Brave and Strong is another claustrophobic pile of a

2267
02:00:32,200 --> 02:00:34,280
Speaker 2: sort of instrumental lines and Sly vocals.

2268
02:00:34,320 --> 02:00:36,920
Speaker 1: It's a great word for this album, claustrophobic.

2269
02:00:37,040 --> 02:00:39,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not the first, can't take credit for that,

2270
02:00:39,240 --> 02:00:41,640
Speaker 2: but thank you for saying it. But the opening set

2271
02:00:41,640 --> 02:00:44,880
Speaker 2: of lyrics frightened Faces to the Wall, Oh can't you

2272
02:00:44,920 --> 02:00:49,120
Speaker 2: hear your mama call the Brave and Strong Survive reflect

2273
02:00:49,200 --> 02:00:52,880
Speaker 2: a pretty strong about face from the utopian view of

2274
02:00:52,920 --> 02:00:56,040
Speaker 2: social dynamics, and the fact that Sly repeats the title

2275
02:00:56,120 --> 02:00:58,880
Speaker 2: line for most of the song is also reflective of

2276
02:00:58,880 --> 02:01:02,160
Speaker 2: his mindset. And then there's also the utter nonsense of

2277
02:01:02,200 --> 02:01:05,360
Speaker 2: the final verse, which is probably the stupidest thing on

2278
02:01:05,400 --> 02:01:09,280
Speaker 2: this record. It consists solely of the lines before me

2279
02:01:09,400 --> 02:01:13,440
Speaker 2: was a cowboy star Indians and there you are. I

2280
02:01:13,480 --> 02:01:15,240
Speaker 2: guess you could read that as some kind of precursor

2281
02:01:15,280 --> 02:01:18,480
Speaker 2: to Spaced Cowboy, but man, that's dumb. But it's one

2282
02:01:18,520 --> 02:01:19,880
Speaker 2: of the only songs on this record that has a

2283
02:01:19,920 --> 02:01:24,280
Speaker 2: really substantial horn part to it, which is nice. You

2284
02:01:24,360 --> 02:01:26,480
Speaker 2: caught Me Smiling is to my ears one of the

2285
02:01:26,480 --> 02:01:28,800
Speaker 2: only songs on this record that has a definitive Larry

2286
02:01:28,880 --> 02:01:31,200
Speaker 2: Graham line. Like I said earlier, he's just a much

2287
02:01:31,240 --> 02:01:34,040
Speaker 2: better basis than Sly and the dead giveaways whether or

2288
02:01:34,040 --> 02:01:37,120
Speaker 2: not it's been Bassis being played with a pick or not. Also,

2289
02:01:37,480 --> 02:01:39,680
Speaker 2: Graham is playing some like double stops and there's some

2290
02:01:39,680 --> 02:01:42,160
Speaker 2: pretty audible pops on there. So I'm gonna call that

2291
02:01:42,200 --> 02:01:45,520
Speaker 2: a clear one for Larry.

2292
02:01:44,120 --> 02:01:44,360
Speaker 1: That was.

2293
02:01:45,880 --> 02:01:48,560
Speaker 2: That was the third single from Riot, released in April

2294
02:01:48,600 --> 02:01:52,600
Speaker 2: seventy two, after Family Affair and Running Away. Smileon was

2295
02:01:52,640 --> 02:01:56,560
Speaker 2: also the debut of post greg Erico drummer Jerry Gibson,

2296
02:01:56,760 --> 02:02:00,120
Speaker 2: who thought he was auditioning for the band when he played.

2297
02:01:59,880 --> 02:02:01,680
Speaker 1: On this track My God.

2298
02:02:02,680 --> 02:02:05,520
Speaker 2: So they hied stop and they go congratulations, you got

2299
02:02:05,560 --> 02:02:07,960
Speaker 2: the job, and he was like, oh, okay, but can

2300
02:02:08,000 --> 02:02:10,480
Speaker 2: I can I do that one again? And they were like, no.

2301
02:02:14,200 --> 02:02:16,280
Speaker 2: Time is kind of a lazy song. It's a wird

2302
02:02:16,320 --> 02:02:19,879
Speaker 2: one too, because slyve forbade the beller mention to have clocks.

2303
02:02:21,960 --> 02:02:26,960
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, both Bobby Womack and Bubble Banks remember

2304
02:02:27,000 --> 02:02:33,160
Speaker 2: Sly stridently arguing against punctuality, telling Womack make him wait, Bobby,

2305
02:02:33,400 --> 02:02:37,080
Speaker 2: it's not the time. It's the timing. Great catchphrase, but

2306
02:02:37,120 --> 02:02:39,880
Speaker 2: some of ironic given the use of a glorified metronome

2307
02:02:39,920 --> 02:02:42,440
Speaker 2: as the background of most of the songs on this record,

2308
02:02:43,680 --> 02:02:45,360
Speaker 2: and you know, people have talked about like what he

2309
02:02:45,400 --> 02:02:47,800
Speaker 2: might have meant by that of being like, you know,

2310
02:02:48,400 --> 02:02:51,360
Speaker 2: not being on someone's not being on the white man's clock,

2311
02:02:51,560 --> 02:02:56,480
Speaker 2: which sure, man, but you know, people do appreciate punctuality

2312
02:02:57,160 --> 02:02:59,320
Speaker 2: they are. Is also a fairly bitter lyric in Time

2313
02:02:59,360 --> 02:03:01,240
Speaker 2: as well, which is the universe needs to be a

2314
02:03:01,280 --> 02:03:04,600
Speaker 2: little stronger. Time, they say is the answer, but I

2315
02:03:04,600 --> 02:03:10,320
Speaker 2: don't believe it. That's grim space. Cowboy is probably the

2316
02:03:10,360 --> 02:03:13,120
Speaker 2: closest thing to a joke song on this record. I

2317
02:03:13,160 --> 02:03:15,880
Speaker 2: am almost one hundred percent sure of the bossa Nova

2318
02:03:16,000 --> 02:03:18,960
Speaker 2: or Cha Cha pre set on the Maestro, but the

2319
02:03:19,000 --> 02:03:21,520
Speaker 2: rest of it sounds like a country soul kind of thing,

2320
02:03:21,920 --> 02:03:25,440
Speaker 2: so I obviously yodels, but there's some like the bass

2321
02:03:25,440 --> 02:03:27,600
Speaker 2: playing that he sinks into at one point is almost

2322
02:03:27,600 --> 02:03:28,480
Speaker 2: like a country like.

2323
02:03:28,400 --> 02:03:31,600
Speaker 1: Boom boom boom boom boom. Yeah.

2324
02:03:31,640 --> 02:03:34,040
Speaker 2: I mean, all the vocals are mixed so low, and

2325
02:03:34,080 --> 02:03:35,880
Speaker 2: they're all out of sync with each other, and you

2326
02:03:35,880 --> 02:03:38,480
Speaker 2: can even hear him start laughing in the middle of singing.

2327
02:03:38,680 --> 02:03:42,440
Speaker 2: So funny song. Maybe it had an influence on that

2328
02:03:42,640 --> 02:03:48,000
Speaker 2: influential anime series Cowboy Bebop, because the sign off in

2329
02:03:48,080 --> 02:03:52,080
Speaker 2: there is see you Space Cowboy. Maybe this is just

2330
02:03:52,160 --> 02:03:54,000
Speaker 2: a coincidence, hard to say.

2331
02:03:55,080 --> 02:03:58,480
Speaker 1: Well, the anti utopian sentiment that's kind of laid out

2332
02:03:58,600 --> 02:04:00,960
Speaker 1: on the opening track Love and Hey is also apparent

2333
02:04:01,040 --> 02:04:04,320
Speaker 1: in the song running Away. In an interview with Mojo

2334
02:04:04,480 --> 02:04:07,120
Speaker 1: Magazine in March twenty ten, Sly was asked about the

2335
02:04:07,160 --> 02:04:09,920
Speaker 1: meaning of this track, and he replied, in those days,

2336
02:04:10,000 --> 02:04:11,960
Speaker 1: it was the hippies who cut their hair and ran

2337
02:04:12,000 --> 02:04:14,800
Speaker 1: away from the hippie feeling. It's about how at a

2338
02:04:14,800 --> 02:04:20,600
Speaker 1: certain time, everybody runs away from something bleak. Yeah, it's

2339
02:04:20,640 --> 02:04:23,640
Speaker 1: one of only two lead vocals from Sister Rose in

2340
02:04:23,680 --> 02:04:26,480
Speaker 1: the band's run, and despite long held rumors that Miles

2341
02:04:26,520 --> 02:04:31,160
Speaker 1: Davis played the trumpet solo, it is indeed Cynthia Robinson

2342
02:04:31,840 --> 02:04:34,720
Speaker 1: and now a closing track, My favorite track on the album,

2343
02:04:34,760 --> 02:04:37,120
Speaker 1: one of my favorite tracks he ever did. If Family

2344
02:04:37,160 --> 02:04:40,240
Speaker 1: Affairs the inverse of Everyday People, then thank you for

2345
02:04:40,320 --> 02:04:42,920
Speaker 1: talking to Me Africa is the inverse of thank you

2346
02:04:43,000 --> 02:04:45,840
Speaker 1: for letting Me be myself. In a very literal sense,

2347
02:04:45,880 --> 02:04:49,120
Speaker 1: it is a swampy, slowed down version of his exuberant

2348
02:04:49,160 --> 02:04:53,240
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine hit I've Seen This Nightmarish inverse described

2349
02:04:53,280 --> 02:04:57,440
Speaker 1: as a sort of self deconstruction. All the original track

2350
02:04:57,520 --> 02:05:01,400
Speaker 1: is celebratory, joyful, and full of bad energy. The riot

2351
02:05:01,480 --> 02:05:07,120
Speaker 1: version is slowed down, sparse, depressive, and exhausted. Sli's vocals

2352
02:05:07,120 --> 02:05:10,840
Speaker 1: are slurred and buried in the mix, the instrumentation is sluggish,

2353
02:05:11,400 --> 02:05:14,680
Speaker 1: and the tone is ominous. As we mentioned in this period,

2354
02:05:14,760 --> 02:05:18,840
Speaker 1: Sly was isolated, paranoid, and heavily addicted to drugs. The

2355
02:05:18,920 --> 02:05:24,200
Speaker 1: song's repetition, flat emotional affect and echoing production comes across

2356
02:05:24,280 --> 02:05:28,200
Speaker 1: as a claustrophobic hellscape, as if Sli is trapped in

2357
02:05:28,280 --> 02:05:32,280
Speaker 1: his own head spiraling. It almost registers as Sly saying

2358
02:05:32,360 --> 02:05:36,880
Speaker 1: that joy, that optimism, it's gone now, and that sense

2359
02:05:36,880 --> 02:05:39,400
Speaker 1: of joy was gone in the world at large as well.

2360
02:05:40,320 --> 02:05:42,720
Speaker 1: Released in the wake of the civil rights movements, unraveling

2361
02:05:42,760 --> 02:05:46,880
Speaker 1: the Vietnam War, political assassinations, and police brutality, the song

2362
02:05:46,960 --> 02:05:51,600
Speaker 1: reflects Sly's growing distrust of American institutions. The titles direct

2363
02:05:51,600 --> 02:05:55,080
Speaker 1: addressed to Africa, suggests a turning away from white America

2364
02:05:55,480 --> 02:05:59,000
Speaker 1: and a spiritual, if not literal, reconnection with African identity

2365
02:05:59,600 --> 02:06:01,920
Speaker 1: or perhaps as the idea of Africa as a source

2366
02:06:01,920 --> 02:06:05,640
Speaker 1: of ancestral truth and grounding. I've also seen it theorize

2367
02:06:05,680 --> 02:06:08,879
Speaker 1: that Africa has a stand in for God or truth itself.

2368
02:06:10,000 --> 02:06:12,560
Speaker 1: In any event, the song is a mournful thank you,

2369
02:06:12,960 --> 02:06:16,240
Speaker 1: thank you for seeing me, for understanding me, for being

2370
02:06:16,240 --> 02:06:19,640
Speaker 1: the only voice I can trust anymore. In that sense,

2371
02:06:20,160 --> 02:06:23,640
Speaker 1: the song's a radical act. He reclaims funk from the

2372
02:06:23,720 --> 02:06:27,320
Speaker 1: dance floor and repositions it as a medium for disenchantment

2373
02:06:27,560 --> 02:06:31,680
Speaker 1: and resistance. The radical hope of everyday people has curdled

2374
02:06:32,360 --> 02:06:36,360
Speaker 1: the parties over. The lights are flickering out. This track

2375
02:06:36,400 --> 02:06:38,920
Speaker 1: closes the album on a note of weary, bitter truth.

2376
02:06:39,600 --> 02:06:44,040
Speaker 1: We believed, we danced, we hoped, and look where we

2377
02:06:44,120 --> 02:06:47,160
Speaker 1: ended up. Thank you for talking to me. Africa isn't

2378
02:06:47,200 --> 02:06:52,720
Speaker 1: a celebration but a reckoning. It's sly stone grappling with race, addiction, betrayal,

2379
02:06:53,240 --> 02:06:56,440
Speaker 1: and the collapse of a utopian dream. It's funk rendered

2380
02:06:56,480 --> 02:07:00,560
Speaker 1: as lament, a personal and political funeral. Dirge guys as

2381
02:07:00,600 --> 02:07:03,840
Speaker 1: a groove. There's something very scary to me when something

2382
02:07:03,920 --> 02:07:07,840
Speaker 1: joyful is revisited in a haunted sort of way. It's fascinating.

2383
02:07:07,840 --> 02:07:10,920
Speaker 1: This kind of meta commentary that's distorting his own work

2384
02:07:10,960 --> 02:07:13,480
Speaker 1: to prove a point. And I can't think of an

2385
02:07:13,480 --> 02:07:15,680
Speaker 1: earlier instance of it ever being done, and I find

2386
02:07:15,720 --> 02:07:17,640
Speaker 1: that as poignant as it is pioneering.

2387
02:07:19,280 --> 02:07:21,280
Speaker 2: That was some of the finest writing I think you've

2388
02:07:21,320 --> 02:07:25,360
Speaker 2: ever done, my friend. Oh higel oh, it was really good.

2389
02:07:25,360 --> 02:07:29,680
Speaker 2: You almost got me a little bit. Yeah, beautiful stuff.

2390
02:07:29,760 --> 02:07:31,200
Speaker 1: For me, it's hard to listen to. I mean it's

2391
02:07:31,200 --> 02:07:34,440
Speaker 1: because it's yeah, it's his haunted self being dropped into

2392
02:07:34,480 --> 02:07:36,839
Speaker 1: his happy dream, yeah.

2393
02:07:37,080 --> 02:07:40,480
Speaker 2: I And I really wish that he'd talked more about this,

2394
02:07:40,560 --> 02:07:44,960
Speaker 2: because like the idea of engaging with your work in

2395
02:07:45,040 --> 02:07:47,520
Speaker 2: that way is so sad.

2396
02:07:47,920 --> 02:07:48,880
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

2397
02:07:49,120 --> 02:07:52,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, like to purposefully, to purposefully be like, I'm working

2398
02:07:52,840 --> 02:07:56,360
Speaker 2: on this thing and I'm going to take an old

2399
02:07:56,480 --> 02:08:00,600
Speaker 2: song that sums up everything I once believed and just

2400
02:08:00,720 --> 02:08:05,000
Speaker 2: turn it inside out and make it this complete. Like

2401
02:08:05,320 --> 02:08:09,440
Speaker 2: somebody spending hours of their life and time doing that

2402
02:08:09,600 --> 02:08:14,880
Speaker 2: is like a deeply sad image to me. Whether he's yeah,

2403
02:08:14,880 --> 02:08:16,320
Speaker 2: I mean, whether he was aware of it or not.

2404
02:08:16,440 --> 02:08:17,800
Speaker 2: I mean, you can talk about it in the kind

2405
02:08:17,800 --> 02:08:21,480
Speaker 2: of like meta side of things, but I mean, if

2406
02:08:21,520 --> 02:08:24,000
Speaker 2: he was doing that, it doesn't seem like it was

2407
02:08:24,080 --> 02:08:26,840
Speaker 2: maybe that intentional, which makes it all the worse to

2408
02:08:26,960 --> 02:08:30,840
Speaker 2: my mind, because then it's like, well Jesus, like if

2409
02:08:30,840 --> 02:08:33,480
Speaker 2: he wasn't intending on doing that, then it just came

2410
02:08:33,520 --> 02:08:34,160
Speaker 2: out this way.

2411
02:08:34,320 --> 02:08:36,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know, I don't know what's worse. It's

2412
02:08:37,360 --> 02:08:42,960
Speaker 1: really unsettling looked at personally, looked at, sociologically, looked at

2413
02:08:43,040 --> 02:08:47,640
Speaker 1: even musically. To just destroy this beautiful thing that it

2414
02:08:47,680 --> 02:08:49,360
Speaker 1: destroys a harsh sure.

2415
02:08:49,240 --> 02:08:51,360
Speaker 2: You know, but I mean even to take like something

2416
02:08:51,360 --> 02:08:53,520
Speaker 2: that was you know, you got, that's your that was

2417
02:08:53,560 --> 02:08:57,040
Speaker 2: your vision, man, Yeah, like that was your high water mark,

2418
02:08:57,120 --> 02:09:00,920
Speaker 2: and then just like a year or two later just

2419
02:09:00,920 --> 02:09:04,480
Speaker 2: being like, no, I'm going to tear this thing apart

2420
02:09:04,600 --> 02:09:08,520
Speaker 2: and make it reflect my new worldview, which also sucks.

2421
02:09:08,960 --> 02:09:12,200
Speaker 1: I really And I've been trying to think all day

2422
02:09:12,600 --> 02:09:17,160
Speaker 1: of an artist who revisited in such a clear direct

2423
02:09:17,240 --> 02:09:23,640
Speaker 1: way something that they were known for and recontextualized it. Yeah,

2424
02:09:23,760 --> 02:09:26,760
Speaker 1: to show a difference in wherever they were, you know,

2425
02:09:26,760 --> 02:09:28,760
Speaker 1: wherever they're at now. I can't really think of that.

2426
02:09:28,880 --> 02:09:31,320
Speaker 2: It's kind of cliche, but I would probably reach to

2427
02:09:31,400 --> 02:09:35,960
Speaker 2: like Johnny Cash, oh the American stuff. But I'm not

2428
02:09:36,200 --> 02:09:39,320
Speaker 2: actually fully sure of how many of his earlier I

2429
02:09:39,400 --> 02:09:41,400
Speaker 2: know he did at least one or two, but I'm

2430
02:09:41,440 --> 02:09:44,640
Speaker 2: not sure how extensive that goes of versions of his

2431
02:09:44,720 --> 02:09:47,760
Speaker 2: old work that he'd done on there. But that's what

2432
02:09:47,800 --> 02:09:48,440
Speaker 2: comes to mind.

2433
02:09:48,480 --> 02:09:50,040
Speaker 1: I don't know which is equally hard.

2434
02:09:50,160 --> 02:09:54,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna say, like Jesus Christ, this has

2435
02:09:54,120 --> 02:09:57,520
Speaker 2: been a tough episode. I hope everyone's okay, we're not,

2436
02:09:58,080 --> 02:10:01,200
Speaker 2: thank you, Jordan.

2437
02:10:02,760 --> 02:10:04,920
Speaker 1: Well, now we're in a section called there's a legacy

2438
02:10:04,960 --> 02:10:09,000
Speaker 1: going on. Yes, that's a right going on. Happier Yeah, actually, yes,

2439
02:10:09,000 --> 02:10:12,040
Speaker 1: this is a pretty happy section. The album received a

2440
02:10:12,080 --> 02:10:16,000
Speaker 1: divided response for both professional critics and general listeners, many

2441
02:10:16,000 --> 02:10:19,240
Speaker 1: of whom have found its production and lyrical content, as

2442
02:10:19,240 --> 02:10:24,360
Speaker 1: we mentioned, particularly challenging. Writing in November nineteen seventy one,

2443
02:10:24,400 --> 02:10:28,120
Speaker 1: for the Los Angeles Times, critic Robert Hilburn criticized the

2444
02:10:28,160 --> 02:10:32,080
Speaker 1: Family Stone's departure from earlier soft flavored, in his words,

2445
02:10:32,160 --> 02:10:34,920
Speaker 1: hits like Everyday People and Hot Fun in the Summertime,

2446
02:10:35,000 --> 02:10:38,000
Speaker 1: stating there was little on the album that is worth

2447
02:10:38,000 --> 02:10:43,040
Speaker 1: your attention. Fellow critic Greal Marcus described the record as

2448
02:10:43,840 --> 02:10:46,320
Speaker 1: this is kind of amazing, even if I don't agree

2449
02:10:46,360 --> 02:10:49,240
Speaker 1: with all of it. Muzak with its finger on the

2450
02:10:49,360 --> 02:10:53,120
Speaker 1: trigger Ooh, I don't know about Muzak, but finger on

2451
02:10:53,160 --> 02:10:54,760
Speaker 1: the trigger is incredible. That's great.

2452
02:10:54,840 --> 02:10:56,920
Speaker 2: Now I kind of get where he's going with because

2453
02:10:56,960 --> 02:10:59,080
Speaker 2: you know, with a drum machine, it's sort of the

2454
02:10:59,080 --> 02:11:02,000
Speaker 2: air Oh yeah, I'm goa use a real college word here.

2455
02:11:02,040 --> 02:11:04,600
Speaker 2: It's a sort of an air SATs version of like.

2456
02:11:04,880 --> 02:11:07,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, they wouldn't know what that sounds like. We have

2457
02:11:07,560 --> 02:11:10,320
Speaker 1: conceptions of drum machines as like we're used to it

2458
02:11:10,360 --> 02:11:11,680
Speaker 1: with funk and hip hop.

2459
02:11:11,680 --> 02:11:13,680
Speaker 2: But I guess they'd be like, but is this plastic

2460
02:11:13,760 --> 02:11:17,080
Speaker 2: sounding thing that I have heard in elevators before.

2461
02:11:16,960 --> 02:11:20,480
Speaker 1: From one of the funkiest artists that we ever known? Yeah,

2462
02:11:20,480 --> 02:11:24,280
Speaker 1: all right, that's a good point. Others offered more enthusiastic

2463
02:11:24,320 --> 02:11:27,960
Speaker 1: praise Rolling Stones. Vinceletti wrote, at first, I hated it

2464
02:11:27,960 --> 02:11:30,280
Speaker 1: for its weakness and lack of energy, and I still

2465
02:11:30,280 --> 02:11:33,160
Speaker 1: dislike these qualities, but then I began to respect the

2466
02:11:33,240 --> 02:11:34,280
Speaker 1: album's honesty.

2467
02:11:34,520 --> 02:11:37,560
Speaker 2: It's disengaged, and between that this sort of meandering nature.

2468
02:11:37,640 --> 02:11:39,600
Speaker 2: I can see how a week isn't the word that

2469
02:11:39,600 --> 02:11:42,920
Speaker 2: I'd use. I would say like low energy maybe, which

2470
02:11:43,000 --> 02:11:43,960
Speaker 2: I guess is a synonym.

2471
02:11:44,040 --> 02:11:46,280
Speaker 1: But he wan't to describe this is really interesting. He

2472
02:11:46,320 --> 02:11:49,120
Speaker 1: really wanted to describe the album as the new urban music.

2473
02:11:49,640 --> 02:11:52,840
Speaker 1: It's very prescient. Not about dancing to the music in

2474
02:11:52,880 --> 02:11:55,560
Speaker 1: the streets, you know, dancing to the music with Slye

2475
02:11:55,720 --> 02:11:58,080
Speaker 1: song Dancing in the streets was the Motown hit Martha

2476
02:11:58,080 --> 02:12:02,000
Speaker 1: and the Vendela's views before that. It's about disintegration, he continues,

2477
02:12:02,200 --> 02:12:06,720
Speaker 1: getting up, nodding, maybe dying. There are flashes of euphoria,

2478
02:12:06,960 --> 02:12:09,920
Speaker 1: ironic laughter, who was laughs in this really creeped me out,

2479
02:12:10,200 --> 02:12:13,840
Speaker 1: even some bright stretches, but mostly it's just junkie death,

2480
02:12:14,480 --> 02:12:21,680
Speaker 1: oddly unoppressive and almost attractive in its effortlessness. That's savagely accurate.

2481
02:12:22,440 --> 02:12:25,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he also sort of like semi predicts

2482
02:12:25,640 --> 02:12:26,360
Speaker 2: a lot of hippop.

2483
02:12:26,360 --> 02:12:28,560
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I know, that's what I mean. Is from

2484
02:12:28,640 --> 02:12:31,840
Speaker 1: November seventy one. I think, Yeah, that's crazy. In The

2485
02:12:31,920 --> 02:12:35,520
Speaker 1: Village Voice, my least favorite critic, Robert Christgau concluded, well,

2486
02:12:35,560 --> 02:12:40,280
Speaker 1: my second least favorite critic, Robert Chriscau, described the songs

2487
02:12:40,360 --> 02:12:46,240
Speaker 1: as expressing the bitterest ghetto pessimism conveyed through subtle production techniques.

2488
02:12:46,520 --> 02:12:50,320
Speaker 1: And jarring song compositions and declared Riot to be quote

2489
02:12:50,360 --> 02:12:53,879
Speaker 1: one of those rare albums whose whole actually does exceed

2490
02:12:53,920 --> 02:12:57,000
Speaker 1: the some of its parts. I agree with that. Yeah,

2491
02:12:57,120 --> 02:12:59,720
Speaker 1: there's a comparison that I've seen crop up again and

2492
02:12:59,720 --> 02:13:03,680
Speaker 1: again to another album that I find hard to access

2493
02:13:03,800 --> 02:13:06,200
Speaker 1: or hard to want to sit and listen to. I

2494
02:13:06,240 --> 02:13:09,200
Speaker 1: guess I should say The Rolling Stones Exile on Main Street.

2495
02:13:09,760 --> 02:13:12,800
Speaker 2: Oh, it's absolutely I mean I read someone called that

2496
02:13:12,880 --> 02:13:15,080
Speaker 2: the White There's a Riot.

2497
02:13:15,680 --> 02:13:19,080
Speaker 1: Oh wow, which I actually agree with. Yeah. Yeah, I

2498
02:13:19,120 --> 02:13:21,440
Speaker 1: think it was released within a few months of each

2499
02:13:21,440 --> 02:13:23,600
Speaker 1: other in nineteen seventy one at least, Yeah, for sure.

2500
02:13:24,000 --> 02:13:27,200
Speaker 2: And I think if they hadn't been trusting Jagger to

2501
02:13:27,200 --> 02:13:31,040
Speaker 2: write all the lyrics, I'm sure the lyrical content would

2502
02:13:31,040 --> 02:13:35,840
Speaker 2: be much more reflective of times and basically like if, yeah,

2503
02:13:35,880 --> 02:13:37,760
Speaker 2: if you didn't have Keith to come in there and

2504
02:13:37,960 --> 02:13:41,760
Speaker 2: you know, do all those peacocking like that might have

2505
02:13:41,840 --> 02:13:45,160
Speaker 2: been a more topical record, or not even topical but

2506
02:13:45,280 --> 02:13:49,160
Speaker 2: self reflective, which as we know, is not sure makes

2507
02:13:49,360 --> 02:13:50,320
Speaker 2: strong points now.

2508
02:13:50,840 --> 02:13:54,120
Speaker 1: Pop Matters journalist Zeth Lundy offered this description of there's

2509
02:13:54,120 --> 02:13:56,720
Speaker 1: a riot going on, which could easily be applied to

2510
02:13:56,720 --> 02:14:00,200
Speaker 1: exile too. He called Riot Quote a challenging listen at

2511
02:14:00,200 --> 02:14:05,120
Speaker 1: times rambling, incoherent, dissonant, and just plain uncomfortable with some

2512
02:14:05,240 --> 02:14:08,600
Speaker 1: episodic moments of pop greatness to be found, and he

2513
02:14:08,640 --> 02:14:11,040
Speaker 1: went on to discuss its radical departure from the band's

2514
02:14:11,080 --> 02:14:14,680
Speaker 1: past music. It sank their previously burgeoning idealism. At a

2515
02:14:14,680 --> 02:14:18,440
Speaker 1: time when social disillusionment was all the rage, Slia had

2516
02:14:18,440 --> 02:14:20,919
Speaker 1: found something else to take him higher, and as a result,

2517
02:14:21,320 --> 02:14:24,680
Speaker 1: Riot is a record very much informant by drugs, paranoia,

2518
02:14:24,760 --> 02:14:28,080
Speaker 1: and a sort of half hearted malcontent. That's a great line.

2519
02:14:28,520 --> 02:14:32,240
Speaker 1: Listening to it isn't exactly a pleasurable experience. It's significant

2520
02:14:32,240 --> 02:14:34,440
Speaker 1: in the annals of pop and soul because it's blunt

2521
02:14:34,520 --> 02:14:38,520
Speaker 1: and unflinching, because it reflects personal and cultural crises in

2522
02:14:38,560 --> 02:14:43,560
Speaker 1: a manner prices in a manner unbecoming for pop records

2523
02:14:44,160 --> 02:14:47,520
Speaker 1: right can be classified as avants soul only after being

2524
02:14:47,560 --> 02:14:51,120
Speaker 1: recognized as a soul nightmare. The nightmare is, so to speak,

2525
02:14:51,640 --> 02:14:55,520
Speaker 1: being a reflection of an unfortunate and uncompromised reality, not

2526
02:14:55,600 --> 02:14:58,520
Speaker 1: a glossed over pop music approximation of reality.

2527
02:14:58,880 --> 02:15:01,840
Speaker 2: Jesus on a great writing about this album, Yeah. Gret

2528
02:15:01,840 --> 02:15:05,200
Speaker 2: Marcus identified the immediate effects of songs like Family Affair

2529
02:15:05,200 --> 02:15:07,920
Speaker 2: on the overall tone and nature of Black music going forward.

2530
02:15:08,880 --> 02:15:13,560
Speaker 2: Curtis Mayfield, Superfly, Freddy's Dead Staple Singers, Respect Yourself, The

2531
02:15:13,600 --> 02:15:19,800
Speaker 2: OJ's Backstabbers Wars, the World as a Ghetto, Stevie Wonder's Superstition, Temptations,

2532
02:15:19,840 --> 02:15:22,280
Speaker 2: Papa was a Rolling Stone. All of them took a

2533
02:15:22,320 --> 02:15:25,840
Speaker 2: new tone of self reliance and determination that also met

2534
02:15:25,880 --> 02:15:28,600
Speaker 2: with real world concerns and real depictions of black life

2535
02:15:28,600 --> 02:15:31,680
Speaker 2: that had not been previously aired in the genre. Sli's

2536
02:15:31,680 --> 02:15:34,920
Speaker 2: old friend George Clinton would take the approach of feel good,

2537
02:15:35,040 --> 02:15:39,320
Speaker 2: booty shaking songs that were primarily about your own repression

2538
02:15:39,560 --> 02:15:45,600
Speaker 2: and unableness to free yourself wow both societal and mental shackles,

2539
02:15:46,000 --> 02:15:48,800
Speaker 2: and weld it to some of the most room destroying

2540
02:15:48,840 --> 02:15:51,560
Speaker 2: funk of all time. You know, America eats its young.

2541
02:15:51,640 --> 02:15:55,280
Speaker 2: What more of a sly statement is that roof destroying?

2542
02:15:55,320 --> 02:15:55,680
Speaker 1: Please?

2543
02:15:56,000 --> 02:15:59,120
Speaker 2: Roof destroying? Yes, they do tear the roof off the sucker.

2544
02:16:00,080 --> 02:16:03,640
Speaker 1: Other just a phenomenal sociological document. The album's legacy is

2545
02:16:03,720 --> 02:16:06,920
Speaker 1: arguably felt most prominently in hip hop. There's a Riot

2546
02:16:06,960 --> 02:16:09,080
Speaker 1: Going On has become one of the most sampled records

2547
02:16:09,080 --> 02:16:12,839
Speaker 1: in music history, with entries on whosample dot com running

2548
02:16:12,920 --> 02:16:17,080
Speaker 1: several hundred deep artists such as Tupac for Life goes

2549
02:16:17,120 --> 02:16:19,320
Speaker 1: On De La Soul, which we mentioned at the top

2550
02:16:19,320 --> 02:16:22,280
Speaker 1: of the episode, and Ghetto Boys Mind Riot for its

2551
02:16:22,280 --> 02:16:26,560
Speaker 1: somber funk and introspective tone. All producers like Jay Dilla

2552
02:16:27,040 --> 02:16:30,520
Speaker 1: and Madlib would cite it as a foundational influence in

2553
02:16:30,560 --> 02:16:34,320
Speaker 1: shaping the field their chopped up, sample heavy soundscapes. It's

2554
02:16:34,360 --> 02:16:37,200
Speaker 1: also songs by Black Eyed Peas, Wu Tang Clan, ghost

2555
02:16:37,240 --> 02:16:39,440
Speaker 1: Face Killer, Snoop Dogg, and Doctor Dre.

2556
02:16:40,320 --> 02:16:42,320
Speaker 2: And the Black Eyed Peas have to do with any

2557
02:16:42,320 --> 02:16:42,440
Speaker 2: of this.

2558
02:16:42,840 --> 02:16:46,160
Speaker 1: Well. There's also in Sync, who used the family Affair

2559
02:16:46,240 --> 02:16:48,440
Speaker 1: loop on I Just Want to be with You in

2560
02:16:48,440 --> 02:16:49,040
Speaker 1: two thousand.

2561
02:16:49,320 --> 02:16:49,960
Speaker 2: I don't like that.

2562
02:16:50,040 --> 02:16:51,560
Speaker 1: You don't like that? That makes you feel bad?

2563
02:16:51,920 --> 02:16:55,080
Speaker 2: Jeordan, I don't like that. I know I don't either, Okay,

2564
02:16:56,240 --> 02:16:57,800
Speaker 2: just wanted to say I wanted you to know that.

2565
02:16:58,840 --> 02:16:59,920
Speaker 2: Can we do anything about that?

2566
02:17:00,120 --> 02:17:02,640
Speaker 1: Or is this already like a statue?

2567
02:17:03,080 --> 02:17:03,640
Speaker 2: Ah?

2568
02:17:05,040 --> 02:17:08,039
Speaker 1: I don't like that. I know, I know, I really don't.

2569
02:17:07,600 --> 02:17:10,120
Speaker 1: I'm not familiar with that song, are you?

2570
02:17:10,480 --> 02:17:12,880
Speaker 2: I think that would beyond be kind of I thought

2571
02:17:12,879 --> 02:17:15,240
Speaker 2: it would beyond the Ken for the Swedes to sample.

2572
02:17:15,840 --> 02:17:17,720
Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, you know, I didn't.

2573
02:17:17,760 --> 02:17:19,200
Speaker 2: I don't see that as a big part of their

2574
02:17:20,040 --> 02:17:23,640
Speaker 2: shiny Hit Factory and Sexual Abuse Empire. Wait, is that

2575
02:17:23,720 --> 02:17:26,760
Speaker 2: doctor Luke is? Doc? Doctor Luke isn't Swedish though, sorry.

2576
02:17:29,120 --> 02:17:34,680
Speaker 1: With draw the wait a minute, No he is, Oh

2577
02:17:34,720 --> 02:17:36,600
Speaker 1: he's not, No he is.

2578
02:17:37,040 --> 02:17:41,640
Speaker 2: Oh he's American, but he has a crazy long last name.

2579
02:17:41,800 --> 02:17:45,120
Speaker 1: Which show as hell looks Swedish to me. Oh he's Polish.

2580
02:17:45,720 --> 02:17:47,120
Speaker 1: Oh yah.

2581
02:17:48,120 --> 02:17:50,480
Speaker 2: Anyway, Uh, doctor Luke sucks.

2582
02:17:51,320 --> 02:17:53,640
Speaker 1: Others who have covered a rework songs on this record

2583
02:17:53,640 --> 02:17:56,640
Speaker 1: include Iggy Pop, which I'm not sure if I'm familiar with,

2584
02:17:57,480 --> 02:18:03,320
Speaker 1: John Legends, Beastie Boy, and Gwen Guthrie. Sly was especially

2585
02:18:03,320 --> 02:18:06,200
Speaker 1: fond of Janet Jackson's use of his music. However, on

2586
02:18:06,240 --> 02:18:08,520
Speaker 1: our nineteen ninety three B side and on and on,

2587
02:18:08,640 --> 02:18:12,320
Speaker 1: Janet incorporates elements from Family Affair and even though this

2588
02:18:12,400 --> 02:18:14,360
Speaker 1: isn't on this record, although I guess it kind of

2589
02:18:14,440 --> 02:18:17,640
Speaker 1: is a revamped forum, she uses the guitar riff from

2590
02:18:17,680 --> 02:18:21,120
Speaker 1: Thank You For Letting Me Be Myself in her smash

2591
02:18:21,520 --> 02:18:23,680
Speaker 1: RHYBM Nation So We'll count it because it was also

2592
02:18:23,720 --> 02:18:25,400
Speaker 1: in thank You for Talking to Me Africa.

2593
02:18:25,520 --> 02:18:28,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll count it. I also, man, you know this

2594
02:18:28,760 --> 02:18:33,040
Speaker 2: band is so this record is so influential that Turnstile,

2595
02:18:33,320 --> 02:18:38,080
Speaker 2: who were, like, wow, one of the like hardcore kind

2596
02:18:38,120 --> 02:18:41,280
Speaker 2: of bands that contributed to that genre having a big moment,

2597
02:18:41,400 --> 02:18:44,800
Speaker 2: and arguably, I don't think, inarguably the most successful man

2598
02:18:44,959 --> 02:18:48,520
Speaker 2: out of it to do that. You know, they just

2599
02:18:48,560 --> 02:18:50,480
Speaker 2: took thank you for letting Me Be Myself as the

2600
02:18:50,560 --> 02:18:53,680
Speaker 2: chorus to one of their songs. Really and yeah, it's

2601
02:18:53,720 --> 02:18:59,120
Speaker 2: literally called thank You. I do wonder I assume they

2602
02:18:59,160 --> 02:19:03,320
Speaker 2: gave him credit, but maybe they didn't. Well, okay, sorry,

2603
02:19:03,640 --> 02:19:06,840
Speaker 2: they have a song called TLC or Turnstile Love Connection

2604
02:19:07,200 --> 02:19:09,800
Speaker 2: that does sample thank you for letting Me be Myself?

2605
02:19:10,040 --> 02:19:12,360
Speaker 2: Is that the actual name of the song or they

2606
02:19:12,400 --> 02:19:13,680
Speaker 2: just have thank you on all of.

2607
02:19:13,680 --> 02:19:17,640
Speaker 1: Their merch I do not see him credited for it.

2608
02:19:17,760 --> 02:19:22,760
Speaker 2: Well, they took it hardcore punk. Ben took that and

2609
02:19:22,920 --> 02:19:26,680
Speaker 2: interpolated it into the end of their song. So just

2610
02:19:27,000 --> 02:19:29,280
Speaker 2: par for the chorus for Whitey that sucks.

2611
02:19:29,520 --> 02:19:31,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does does what it's saying.

2612
02:19:31,720 --> 02:19:34,760
Speaker 2: On discogs man or ascap or something. It's really gonna

2613
02:19:34,800 --> 02:19:37,000
Speaker 2: kiss me off if I find out they didn't. I mean,

2614
02:19:37,040 --> 02:19:38,800
Speaker 2: I'm sure they like said.

2615
02:19:38,560 --> 02:19:43,480
Speaker 1: It on the Turnstile Reddit. Ripedis Lystone, who most likely

2616
02:19:43,520 --> 02:19:45,360
Speaker 1: inspired the hook towards the end of TLC.

2617
02:19:46,000 --> 02:19:48,400
Speaker 2: Most likely it's on.

2618
02:19:48,560 --> 02:19:51,960
Speaker 1: Okay, it's referenced on the Who's Sampled site?

2619
02:19:52,120 --> 02:19:53,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's not on. They didn't give him a

2620
02:19:53,720 --> 02:19:58,000
Speaker 2: writer's credit. White people, right, Rob.

2621
02:19:57,840 --> 02:20:00,760
Speaker 1: Sheffield cited it and is ott bit for sliced one.

2622
02:20:00,800 --> 02:20:03,520
Speaker 2: Well good, at least someone has their eye on the

2623
02:20:03,680 --> 02:20:06,520
Speaker 2: damn ball man. That sucks. I'm like pissed because I

2624
02:20:06,560 --> 02:20:08,600
Speaker 2: remember when that song came out. I was like, oh cool,

2625
02:20:08,600 --> 02:20:11,280
Speaker 2: they're doing this, and everyone was like, oh cool, they're

2626
02:20:11,280 --> 02:20:14,600
Speaker 2: doing sly Like I thought that was an accepted thing.

2627
02:20:14,800 --> 02:20:16,800
Speaker 2: The fact that they didn't give him credit on it.

2628
02:20:17,520 --> 02:20:20,880
Speaker 1: I know. There's big discourse about turnstyle right now.

2629
02:20:21,080 --> 02:20:24,440
Speaker 2: They're always big discourse. They're like the archetypal band that,

2630
02:20:24,560 --> 02:20:28,959
Speaker 2: like hardcore people get so pissed off whenever and anything

2631
02:20:29,000 --> 02:20:31,320
Speaker 2: gets popular. It's like the worst thing that could ever

2632
02:20:31,360 --> 02:20:34,560
Speaker 2: happen to them that they conceive of, and they're precious

2633
02:20:34,600 --> 02:20:38,320
Speaker 2: scene and you know, their unity and all this garbage

2634
02:20:38,360 --> 02:20:41,120
Speaker 2: that none of them actually believe in Yeah. So the

2635
02:20:41,120 --> 02:20:43,040
Speaker 2: whole reason that people hate this band is that when

2636
02:20:43,080 --> 02:20:45,840
Speaker 2: they came out, they were like more or less straightforward

2637
02:20:45,959 --> 02:20:49,400
Speaker 2: hardcore band. They had They started in Baltimore, which has

2638
02:20:49,440 --> 02:20:53,560
Speaker 2: a thriving punk scene. They had an EP, they put

2639
02:20:53,560 --> 02:20:55,080
Speaker 2: out a lot of stuff. They even went as so

2640
02:20:55,120 --> 02:20:57,240
Speaker 2: far as to record at Salad Day's Studios, which is

2641
02:20:57,280 --> 02:21:01,759
Speaker 2: named after a minor threat song with this guy Brian McTiernan,

2642
02:21:01,920 --> 02:21:05,640
Speaker 2: who's like, They had like all these bona fide credentials

2643
02:21:05,640 --> 02:21:07,680
Speaker 2: and stuff, and then everybody got really pissed off because

2644
02:21:08,000 --> 02:21:12,280
Speaker 2: they started dressing like hype Beast influencers and like Neon

2645
02:21:12,520 --> 02:21:16,200
Speaker 2: and all this stuff, and they started putting eight o

2646
02:21:16,280 --> 02:21:19,480
Speaker 2: eights into like hardcore songs and and just kind of

2647
02:21:19,520 --> 02:21:23,320
Speaker 2: breaking different rules that people in the genre are the

2648
02:21:23,360 --> 02:21:28,360
Speaker 2: people fans are notoriously pissy about when you break those rules.

2649
02:21:28,720 --> 02:21:30,879
Speaker 2: I was always fine with them. I didn't really like it,

2650
02:21:30,959 --> 02:21:32,320
Speaker 2: but now I'm pissed off.

2651
02:21:33,080 --> 02:21:37,039
Speaker 1: We got a live Heigel pissed Off birth on Mike.

2652
02:21:37,360 --> 02:21:39,680
Speaker 1: I'm glad this is this is rare that this happens.

2653
02:21:39,720 --> 02:21:42,400
Speaker 1: It's like a it's like an astrological event captured.

2654
02:21:42,879 --> 02:21:45,279
Speaker 2: Just sucks man. There's so much racial up in hardcore,

2655
02:21:45,440 --> 02:21:48,560
Speaker 2: Like the genre was helped, it was partially created by

2656
02:21:48,560 --> 02:21:50,720
Speaker 2: black people, Like Bad Brains were one of the founding

2657
02:21:51,240 --> 02:21:55,080
Speaker 2: Everybody was in awe of those guys, like nobody understood

2658
02:21:55,160 --> 02:21:57,920
Speaker 2: what they were even doing. They were so good. But

2659
02:21:58,360 --> 02:22:03,720
Speaker 2: you know, like there's those a lot of racist white

2660
02:22:04,000 --> 02:22:07,120
Speaker 2: punk bands. There's I mean, Screwdriver is probably the most famous.

2661
02:22:07,120 --> 02:22:09,920
Speaker 2: But like you know, once you start getting into like

2662
02:22:10,200 --> 02:22:13,680
Speaker 2: hardcore punk as a genre, it's really really white. It's

2663
02:22:13,840 --> 02:22:17,160
Speaker 2: very macho. I did not really enjoy being a part

2664
02:22:17,200 --> 02:22:22,800
Speaker 2: of that particular scene. Yeah, I don't know, man, people

2665
02:22:23,080 --> 02:22:25,119
Speaker 2: like to talk a lot about like, oh no, it's

2666
02:22:25,120 --> 02:22:27,680
Speaker 2: all about like unity and like your brotherhood, Like these

2667
02:22:27,680 --> 02:22:30,080
Speaker 2: guys are my brothers, and like you know, and straight

2668
02:22:30,160 --> 02:22:33,080
Speaker 2: Edge obviously goes into it a lot, and like, you know,

2669
02:22:33,160 --> 02:22:35,800
Speaker 2: I just get so much strength to like to like

2670
02:22:35,879 --> 02:22:38,520
Speaker 2: persevere from like hardcore or whatever. But it's also like

2671
02:22:38,640 --> 02:22:42,959
Speaker 2: an incredibly lily white, super masculine genre. And to have

2672
02:22:43,040 --> 02:22:47,160
Speaker 2: these like the like woke and hardcore band And I'm

2673
02:22:47,160 --> 02:22:49,959
Speaker 2: saying that sarcastically, but also it really pisses me off

2674
02:22:50,000 --> 02:22:53,560
Speaker 2: that they're like, oh, we're all non binary. Also We

2675
02:22:53,600 --> 02:22:57,640
Speaker 2: wrote that song all by ourself. That phrase no one

2676
02:22:57,680 --> 02:23:00,800
Speaker 2: else ever used that as a hook. That was just

2677
02:23:00,879 --> 02:23:03,879
Speaker 2: us from Marylyn We're just babies. He didn't know that

2678
02:23:04,000 --> 02:23:04,440
Speaker 2: was a song.

2679
02:23:04,640 --> 02:23:08,840
Speaker 1: Speaking of frauds, it feels somewhat fraudulent to exit this

2680
02:23:08,920 --> 02:23:11,480
Speaker 1: episode with a quote from Rolling Stone that I didn't

2681
02:23:11,480 --> 02:23:13,720
Speaker 1: write and you didn't write. But this line for my

2682
02:23:13,800 --> 02:23:16,440
Speaker 1: two thousand and three article at least sort of sums

2683
02:23:16,520 --> 02:23:18,720
Speaker 1: up the hole. There's a riote going on thing for me.

2684
02:23:19,480 --> 02:23:22,520
Speaker 1: Sly and the family Stone created a musical utopia, an

2685
02:23:22,560 --> 02:23:25,360
Speaker 1: interracial group of men and women who blended funk rock

2686
02:23:25,400 --> 02:23:29,560
Speaker 1: and positive vibes. Sly Stone ultimately discovered that his utopia

2687
02:23:29,640 --> 02:23:32,680
Speaker 1: had a ghetto, and he brilliantly tore the whole thing

2688
02:23:32,720 --> 02:23:35,280
Speaker 1: down on There's a ride going on, which does not

2689
02:23:35,360 --> 02:23:38,000
Speaker 1: refute the joy of his earlier music.

2690
02:23:38,680 --> 02:23:42,280
Speaker 2: It's a beautiful sentiment. It is I myself would like

2691
02:23:42,320 --> 02:23:45,320
Speaker 2: to counter with a different Rolling Stone article, this one

2692
02:23:45,320 --> 02:23:49,520
Speaker 2: from nineteen seventy one, during which sly hit the writer

2693
02:23:49,640 --> 02:23:52,480
Speaker 2: Timothy Krause in the face with a wet washcloth at

2694
02:23:52,520 --> 02:23:54,800
Speaker 2: one point, and then tried to hit him again as

2695
02:23:54,840 --> 02:23:57,440
Speaker 2: he was going out the door before he threw that

2696
02:23:57,440 --> 02:24:01,720
Speaker 2: second washcloth, though Stone left him with these words. It's

2697
02:24:01,760 --> 02:24:04,199
Speaker 2: been a real pleasure, as far as I can see,

2698
02:24:05,040 --> 02:24:05,760
Speaker 2: to the best of my.

2699
02:24:05,720 --> 02:24:07,920
Speaker 1: Knowledge, get away with words.

2700
02:24:08,160 --> 02:24:10,320
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening. Everyone, This has been too much information.

2701
02:24:10,840 --> 02:24:12,920
Speaker 2: I'm Alex Heigel and I'm.

2702
02:24:12,840 --> 02:24:16,240
Speaker 1: Jordan run Talk. We will catch you all next time.

2703
02:24:21,640 --> 02:24:24,160
Speaker 1: Too Much Information was a production of iHeart Radio.

2704
02:24:24,400 --> 02:24:27,640
Speaker 2: The show's executive producers are Noel Brown and Jordan Runtalk.

2705
02:24:27,800 --> 02:24:31,480
Speaker 1: The show's supervising producer is Michael Alder June. The show was.

2706
02:24:31,520 --> 02:24:35,240
Speaker 2: Researched, written, and hosted by Jordan run Talk and Alex Heigel.

2707
02:24:35,000 --> 02:24:38,240
Speaker 1: With original music by Seth Applebaum and the Ghost Funk Orchestra.

2708
02:24:38,560 --> 02:24:40,720
Speaker 2: If you like what you heard, please subscribe and leave.

2709
02:24:40,680 --> 02:24:43,640
Speaker 1: Us a review. For more podcasts on iHeartRadio, visit the

2710
02:24:43,680 --> 02:24:46,960
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

2711
02:24:46,959 --> 02:25:00,240
Speaker 1: favorite shows up