Speaker 1: That was a really really it's a really pigful time.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Please welcome Jada pink It Smith. You want
Speaker 1: out of the pain. Only way out is death. Chris
Speaker 1: comes to the end of the stage and he looks
Speaker 1: at me deeply sincerely, and he says.
Speaker 2: I also have a letter from Will. I wanted to
Speaker 2: share a trigger warning before this episode starts. This podcast
Speaker 2: includes discussions of suicide and self harm. If you're someone
Speaker 2: you know is struggling with thoughts of self harm or suicide,
Speaker 2: please seek help immediately. You're not alone and there is
Speaker 2: support available. Reach out to a mental health professional, a
Speaker 2: trusted friend, or a family member, or call the National
Speaker 2: Suicide Prevention Lifeline at nine to eight eight. That's nine
Speaker 2: to eight eight. Before Oh, we jump into this episode,
Speaker 2: I'd like to invite you to join this community to
Speaker 2: hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier,
Speaker 2: and more healed. All I want you to do is
Speaker 2: click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's
Speaker 2: incredible to see all your comments and we're just getting started.
Speaker 2: I can't wait to go on this journey with you.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to.
Speaker 1: Me, the best selling authoring the host the.
Speaker 2: Number one health and wellness.
Speaker 1: Podcast On Purpose with Jay Shetty.
Speaker 2: Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. I'm your host,
Speaker 2: Jay Shetty, and today is an extremely special episode for
Speaker 2: me because I'm sitting down with one of my dearest friends,
Speaker 2: my sisters, someone that I deeply love and admire in
Speaker 2: this world, and she's gone out and created something that
Speaker 2: I believe is going to be a gift to anyone
Speaker 2: who reads it. I've just spent the last couple of
Speaker 2: months reading through her new book myself, and I can
Speaker 2: tell you this. It is a journey of hardship. It
Speaker 2: is a journey of healing. It's a journey of growth,
Speaker 2: and it's a journey of learning to accept and embrace
Speaker 2: the discomfort that life brings to each and every one
Speaker 2: of us in so many different ways. And for that reason,
Speaker 2: I believe that when you read it, when you take
Speaker 2: out time to hopefully share it with your friends, your community,
Speaker 2: maybe you're going to make it the next pick for
Speaker 2: your book club and dissect it and analyze it and
Speaker 2: reflect on it together, which I think it would be
Speaker 2: really powerful for I hope that this book is going
Speaker 2: to help make you happier, healthier, and more healed, because
Speaker 2: I really believe it has the power to do that
Speaker 2: and guide you towards your greatest higher self in all
Speaker 2: areas of your life, whether it be your career, your relationships,
Speaker 2: as a parent, as a friend. I really believe that
Speaker 2: this book has the ability to uplift you as a person,
Speaker 2: as a parent, as a partner, and ultimately as a
Speaker 2: human trying to live and walk on this earth that
Speaker 2: can be chaotic and crazy. So I want to welcome
Speaker 2: to the show one of my dearest friends, Jada Pinkett Smith,
Speaker 2: who of course needs no introduction, but there is an actor, producer, musician, host,
Speaker 2: now author, an advocate whose career has spanned over thirty years.
Speaker 2: In twenty eighteen, Jada added a new element to her
Speaker 2: multi hypheneate talents one of hosts on the Emmy Award
Speaker 2: winning talk show titled Red Table Talk that I've had
Speaker 2: the fortune of being a guest on so many times.
Speaker 2: It was one of the highlights of my careers when
Speaker 2: I was first invited on and on the series, Jada,
Speaker 2: alongside her wonderful daughter Willow and her mom Adrian, take
Speaker 2: a multi generational approach to discussions that speak to social
Speaker 2: and cultural issues, which have encouraged open discussions and dialogue
Speaker 2: among hundreds of millions of people. And a new book
Speaker 2: is out right now. It's called Worthy. This beautiful cover
Speaker 2: made of so many wonderful images and a mosaic of
Speaker 2: tiny little pictures of Jada. But I want to encourage
Speaker 2: you all to grab a copy of this book. Welcome
Speaker 2: to the show, Jada Pinkett Smith, Jada, Jay.
Speaker 1: Now, Jay, before we start going, can I tell a story?
Speaker 2: You can?
Speaker 1: Okay, got it. I have to let your audience know
Speaker 1: how this book even became. Okay, they have to know, Jay, Okay,
Speaker 1: all right, So I visit you. I'm here visiting because
Speaker 1: Swammy's here, right enough, Swamy is here. And you had
Speaker 1: often said, Jada, you should write a book. I'm like, Jay,
Speaker 1: I don't want to. So this day, once again, you're like, Jada,
Speaker 1: you should write a book. I'm like, Jay, I don't
Speaker 1: want to write a book. You're like, well, you should
Speaker 1: write a book, Jay, I don't want to write a book.
Speaker 1: We're going back and forth like siblings. Roda Knough comes
Speaker 1: into the kitchen because Roddy's making a beautiful lunch for
Speaker 1: us to eat. He comes, he sits there and he goes, Jay,
Speaker 1: if Jada doesn't want to write a book, she doesn't
Speaker 1: have to write a book. And you go, well, I
Speaker 1: think she should write a book. And I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: did he just talk back to that? Why? But I'm
Speaker 1: going to tell you something that was really a moment
Speaker 1: for me, right because I said, because I'd been pushing
Speaker 1: back for a long time and you talking to me
Speaker 1: about it, and that moment, I was like, Okay, I
Speaker 1: need you to take that home and I need you
Speaker 1: to think about it because Jay's your brother. There's something
Speaker 1: here that you might not be seeing. And it was
Speaker 1: really that moment that put me on pause. And a
Speaker 1: couple of days later, I was in meditation and it
Speaker 1: came to me and I said, oh, my goodness, my
Speaker 1: journey from unlovable to lovable is a worthy story to tell.
Speaker 1: And I called you and I said, Jay, I got it.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: For you were so persistent about it, right, And I
Speaker 1: just want to thank you because honestly, and I'm not
Speaker 1: you know, if it hadn't been for that moment, that
Speaker 1: book wouldn't be here right now, right, And you really
Speaker 1: were on my neck about it for a long time.
Speaker 1: So I just want to say thank you because you
Speaker 1: also made it clear you were like, you made it
Speaker 1: clear to me I would get a lot out of it,
Speaker 1: and I have. So I just want to say thank you.
Speaker 1: It's been such a deep healing process for me in
Speaker 1: ways that I could have never imagined, you know, and
Speaker 1: what you said before you know, we even started, and
Speaker 1: the introduction, you know, just that hope of it's so
Speaker 1: hard to find authentic happiness in this world, even through
Speaker 1: my journey, my fifty two years, and just trying to
Speaker 1: figure out how to be authentically happy has been such
Speaker 1: an excruciating process, and one of the purposes of this book.
Speaker 1: It's like, if I can help in any small amount
Speaker 1: of way, you know, in any way possible to help
Speaker 1: somebody have an easier or just leave like little bread
Speaker 1: crumbs kind of like not a blueprint because everybody's process
Speaker 1: is different, but just little bread crumbs of how to
Speaker 1: find that for yourself, because it has been really difficult
Speaker 1: for me. So thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for sharing that with me. And I
Speaker 2: think I blocked that memory out to go. I don't
Speaker 2: think I've ever tried to stand up against rather than
Speaker 2: strong my teaching before I think that would, so I've
Speaker 2: pretended that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like that did it for me.
Speaker 2: Growing up reading autobiographies is what changed my life. And
Speaker 2: I think one of the things that I feel we
Speaker 2: struggle with today is that people's narratives are being told
Speaker 2: from so many different angles apart from their own. And
Speaker 2: when I grew up and I was reading the words
Speaker 2: of Martin Luther King or I was reading Malcolm X,
Speaker 2: I found there to be so much power in reading
Speaker 2: the words directly from an individual. And so even if
Speaker 2: that wasn't their autobiography, if it was their work, their words,
Speaker 2: you felt so intimately connected with that person. And I
Speaker 2: feel that when people move on and we don't have
Speaker 2: them on the planet anymore, it's almost like you lose
Speaker 2: this treasure house of experience and memories. And I also
Speaker 2: think that if someone's listening or watching right now and
Speaker 2: you're thinking, well, Jay, I would never write a book.
Speaker 2: I'm not a public figure. I'm not a celebrity. I'm
Speaker 2: not a musician or an actor. I don't have a
Speaker 2: career path that means I should be an author. I
Speaker 2: still think that telling your story, whether it's to your family,
Speaker 2: your kids is so.
Speaker 1: I could not agree with you more. I think it's
Speaker 1: actually imperative that looking at your life on the page,
Speaker 1: like you forget experiences, you know, you forget like, oh
Speaker 1: my goodness, I did that. Oh I've went through that.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, really I came through that. It's like
Speaker 1: it's almost like an homage to yourself, honestly, to really
Speaker 1: be able to look at your life and go, Wow,
Speaker 1: what a life. I think everybody should take some time,
Speaker 1: even if it's just one like because even with Worthy,
Speaker 1: I took one line which was unlovable to lovable. So
Speaker 1: anything in regards to my life that was on that
Speaker 1: arc I talked about, but there's so much more, so
Speaker 1: many other parts of my life. Right. So even if
Speaker 1: somebody says, you know what, I just want to, you know,
Speaker 1: write down the happiest moments of my childhood and I
Speaker 1: want to just look at that on paper.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: But whatever journey somebody decides to pick from from their
Speaker 1: life and to examine thoroughly on the page, I would
Speaker 1: definitely suggest that because it is really powerful and it's
Speaker 1: so healing, and it will teach you so much about yourself.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I can't agree more I couldn't agree more. Let's
Speaker 2: let's dive in, okay, because that journey of being unlovable
Speaker 2: and lovable as you're tracing there, I think it's a
Speaker 2: journey that we all have to walk in our own ways.
Speaker 2: And I think when you know I met you, I
Speaker 2: think five years ago. Now, we've just spent a lot
Speaker 2: of time together in the last five years. Hence we
Speaker 2: have a deep connection. But when I first met you,
Speaker 2: I was looking at you from the outside, and over
Speaker 2: the last five years, I've got to know you through
Speaker 2: an inner journey and you know, through family as well,
Speaker 2: and through spending time with your family. And what I
Speaker 2: found was that we often lose context when you view
Speaker 2: someone's life from the outside, and when you get closer,
Speaker 2: the greatest thing you get is context. And so I
Speaker 2: wanted to start off and this book does that so well.
Speaker 2: But I want to start off of what does it
Speaker 2: feel like growing up with a teenage mom who has
Speaker 2: an addiction? Like I think that that is so formative
Speaker 2: in so many ways, and it's so easy to forget
Speaker 2: that that's where you started because of your career.
Speaker 1: Growing up with my mother a teenage right, it's like
Speaker 1: we grew up together. It's almost like having a big sister.
Speaker 1: I mean even to this day, you know, it's like
Speaker 1: it's like I get to have two roles in my mom.
Speaker 1: Like sometimes she's still my big sister, and then sometimes
Speaker 1: she really comes in as your as my mother, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. As you saw in the book,
Speaker 1: it's like I had all this freedom, running crazy in
Speaker 1: the streets, what have you, but there was such pivotal
Speaker 1: moments where Adrian came to the rescue as my mother,
Speaker 1: right and she still does that to this day. But
Speaker 1: it was you know, I did a lot of having
Speaker 1: to raise myself and there are parts of that. There's
Speaker 1: pros and cons to that. There's a lot of pros.
Speaker 1: It's like that is the part that made it possible
Speaker 1: for me to come to La at the age of
Speaker 1: eighteen on my own and figure this Hollywood game out right,
Speaker 1: just with no fear, completely fearless, but then also kind
Speaker 1: of growing up with certain ideas of what I thought
Speaker 1: love was or certain survival mechanisms that you know, as
Speaker 1: I got older, didn't quite serve me. But I think
Speaker 1: that we all have that, no matter what our family
Speaker 1: background is, you know what I'm saying, We all kind
Speaker 1: of pick up things that along the way that don't
Speaker 1: serve us for the entirety of our journey. I tell you,
Speaker 1: I learned a lot having a young mom at an
Speaker 1: early age. Really do think that even with our trials
Speaker 1: and our challenges, that the Great Supreme gave me the
Speaker 1: mom I was supposed to have and the most perfect
Speaker 1: mother in the journey that I was supposed to have
Speaker 1: to prepare me for other parts of my journey. But
Speaker 1: you know, it was challenging and beautiful at the same time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I love gamming, so I just want to put.
Speaker 1: Them Yeah, yeah, we all love gam Yeah.
Speaker 2: But it's really interesting. There was one line in your
Speaker 2: book that really kind of cemented that feeling of unlovable
Speaker 2: to me from that time, and you said, there was
Speaker 2: a time when you felt like you were not being
Speaker 2: a priority to the two people who gave you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was hard.
Speaker 2: That really hit me because I was like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was probably really difficult, and like you had
Speaker 1: two parents who drugs were their focus and the lifestyle
Speaker 1: that came with it.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I also talk about in the book when my father
Speaker 1: told me at seven years old, I can't be your father,
Speaker 1: and it's just like, Wow, Okay, what do I do
Speaker 1: with this?
Speaker 2: What does a seven year old do with that?
Speaker 1: You just kind of internalize it, and you kind of go, Okay,
Speaker 1: what's wrong with me? What is it about me? That
Speaker 1: I'm not enough for these two people to look at
Speaker 1: me as a priority? Because I see everybody else's parents
Speaker 1: and it looks like their kids are their priority. So
Speaker 1: what's wrong with me? So you kinda I internalize this
Speaker 1: idea of not being enough, not being lovable, and it's
Speaker 1: strange because it's not that that I didn't feel like
Speaker 1: my mother didn't love me. It's just that am I
Speaker 1: lovable enough to be the priority? Am I lovable enough
Speaker 1: for you to show up for me as the mom
Speaker 1: that I see other moms be, you know? So I
Speaker 1: definitely in turnalize that, and I think that I took
Speaker 1: that into the world of like, I'm just going to
Speaker 1: prove constantly having improved myself, and I'm lovable. I'm lovable enough.
Speaker 1: I'm lovable enough, And I think that was some of
Speaker 1: the messaging that I took from my childhood into my adulthood.
Speaker 2: And I appreciate you going back to that seven year
Speaker 2: old self because in hindsight and now, looking back, you
Speaker 2: can make sense of it, yeah, and you can connect
Speaker 2: the dots, but it's like when you're actually in that position,
Speaker 2: it's very natural, as you said, to just internalize it.
Speaker 2: And I think that what's really interesting with your journey
Speaker 2: is we all have to develop the emotional skills our
Speaker 2: parents didn't have. Yeah, And the earlier we do that,
Speaker 2: the easier and simpler life becomes. But often most of
Speaker 2: our energy goes in thinking, well, I wish they had
Speaker 2: them or they should have had them. And when I'm
Speaker 2: listening to you, what I'm hearing is that it's not
Speaker 2: even the belief that they don't love me or love
Speaker 2: me enough. It's the belief that so inside I am
Speaker 2: not lovable you. Yes, yes, right, it's it's so inside you.
Speaker 2: It's not even about them.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's like I'm not valuable.
Speaker 2: I'm not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's because that's your mirror at first, right, But
Speaker 1: it and it's so complicated and nuanced. Do I believe
Speaker 1: my father loved me, of course, in the way that
Speaker 1: he could. I think that he felt the most loving
Speaker 1: thing he could do was tell me I can't be
Speaker 1: your father. And I respected that even at seven, because
Speaker 1: I was like at least somebody's telling me the truth.
Speaker 1: I've always respected hardcore truths. That is one thing about me.
Speaker 1: I respect hardcore truths. Doesn't mean I always like them,
Speaker 1: but I freaking respect them. At seven seven that's a gangster,
Speaker 1: hardcore truth to tell a child. But then at the
Speaker 1: same time that seed within me that is like, well,
Speaker 1: are all men like that? Like if my dad doesn't
Speaker 1: love me, how is any man gonna love me? I
Speaker 1: didn't realize that at seven. That's when I started getting
Speaker 1: into like sixteen seventeen, when I start, you know, having
Speaker 1: those kind of intimate relationships with men and realizing, oh wow,
Speaker 1: this area is this area is quite unhealthy, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean of just like how I viewed myself.
Speaker 1: I was either giving too much or not enough. I'm
Speaker 1: either hot or super cold, you know, emotionally, and so
Speaker 1: trying to regulate and understand because you know, my understanding
Speaker 1: is that a young girl's first relationship and understanding of
Speaker 1: love is with her father. I didn't have that at all.
Speaker 1: So I'm still learning, still really immature in that area
Speaker 1: of just emotional development around intimacy with masculinity. I know
Speaker 1: that now, whereas before I didn't know.
Speaker 2: That, Yeah you're aware.
Speaker 1: I'm not aware. This is just what it is. And
Speaker 1: then growing up in an environment with so much violence
Speaker 1: and so much aggression, and oh man, it was like
Speaker 1: what do you do with all that? And trying to
Speaker 1: just like unpack all of it to just figure out like, oh,
Speaker 1: life is about love. It's not about power and ego
Speaker 1: and winning and losing. I mean, it's taking me fifty
Speaker 1: I'm fifty two, just now understanding that it's been a
Speaker 1: wild ride. But you know what, every day I thank
Speaker 1: the Great Supreme for the journey and just forgiving me
Speaker 1: the awakenings, the little awakenings that I get about love
Speaker 1: and just my willingness to have it, know, really wanting
Speaker 1: to understand what love is all about. But I do
Speaker 1: have to give my grandmother a lot of credit. Yeah, Marian, really,
Speaker 1: I had all these different seeds that were planted in
Speaker 1: me and Mary in seed. That that goes to show
Speaker 1: you how the legacy of love will overpower everything. It
Speaker 1: is her. It is the legacy of love that my
Speaker 1: grandmother instilled in me, and also the desire to search.
Speaker 1: She always had me understand that the world is full
Speaker 1: of treasures. Get out there and find them. She instilled
Speaker 1: that in me at a very young age. And she
Speaker 1: also instilled in me that I was special. But I
Speaker 1: was her first girl child. You know, I was our
Speaker 1: first grandchild. Excuse me, I just said, you know, I
Speaker 1: was our first grandchild itself. She she really made me
Speaker 1: think that I could be and do anything, being the
Speaker 1: child of two addicts on one side, and then my
Speaker 1: grandmother instilling in me like, no, I'm telling you you
Speaker 1: got something, kid, you know what I mean. And so
Speaker 1: just being able to hold on to those seeds that
Speaker 1: she put within me, and then of course my mother
Speaker 1: encouraging me along the way to my mother saw some
Speaker 1: really beautiful stuff in me as well, and she's been
Speaker 1: one of my biggest cheerleaders and champions throughout my life.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, if your grandmother saw you today, what would she say?
Speaker 1: Oh, my goodness, my grandmother would be so proud of me.
Speaker 1: Do it all like with the good and the challenges.
Speaker 1: She had a very challenging life, extremely and what she
Speaker 1: was able to make out of her life as a immigrant,
Speaker 1: you know, child of two immigrants from Jamaica, she became
Speaker 1: pregnant at thirteen. To this day, we don't know how
Speaker 1: that happened. We do believe that it was a mistake
Speaker 1: and it wasn't that she was raped or molested or
Speaker 1: you know, I never got that from her. I always
Speaker 1: got that it was her lack of knowledge about sex
Speaker 1: that created that circumstance, and she had that baby on
Speaker 1: her own. She was pretty much abandoned, and she was
Speaker 1: taken in by a family through a foster, a white
Speaker 1: family who she worked for as a maid, and got
Speaker 1: herself to Howard University and was able to go to
Speaker 1: India as an ambassador. Yeah, she went to India and
Speaker 1: came back and my grandfather, who was studying to be
Speaker 1: a doctor, asked her to get married. So I think
Speaker 1: she would be and is very proud of me with
Speaker 1: it all.
Speaker 2: I love. That's that's special to feel that that, yes,
Speaker 2: to look back. So Jada, at the start of this book,
Speaker 2: you talk about how you were and this broke my heart.
Speaker 2: You were talking about how you were planning taking your life,
Speaker 2: but then how it could look like an accident. Yeah.
Speaker 1: That was twenty eleven. That was my fortieth birthday, my
Speaker 1: fortieth year.
Speaker 2: Actually, when I was reading that, I was just thinking
Speaker 2: to myself. I was like, what were you hoping that
Speaker 2: would achieve Like, what were you hoping that would solve?
Speaker 2: Talk us through that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny because when you're in those states, you're
Speaker 1: not clear. It's not like it's going to make rational sense, right.
Speaker 1: You want out of the pain, and you cannot imagine
Speaker 1: your only way out is death. You think in your
Speaker 1: mind you've tried everything, and you're like, so like, God,
Speaker 1: I can't do this. I can't keep doing this, and
Speaker 1: so that's your only solution. And I tell people all
Speaker 1: the time, you know, We've had a lot of different
Speaker 1: spotlight of people I've taken their life. People go, I
Speaker 1: cannot believe it, and I'm like, you just never know
Speaker 1: what somebody's going through. And there are certain people that
Speaker 1: have a high tolerance for being able to put on
Speaker 1: a good face in order to not burden people. But
Speaker 1: what is really interesting is that when you have a plan,
Speaker 1: sometimes that gives you enough energy to just keep going
Speaker 1: because you're like, Okay, I got a good plan, so
Speaker 1: if this gets really bad, I know where to go.
Speaker 1: And you're like, Okay, I'm just going to keep trying
Speaker 1: to figure this out and keep trying to figure this out.
Speaker 1: But I got this plan and it's really tough because
Speaker 1: you don't want to for personalities like myself, you don't
Speaker 1: want to burden anybody. And you're like, look, if I
Speaker 1: can't figure out how to get out of this, nobody
Speaker 1: else is gonna be able to figure this out either.
Speaker 1: That was a really, really painful It's a really painful time.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I'm really grateful that I found a way out,
Speaker 1: but I think about people who don't find it, and
Speaker 1: I wish, I wish there was like one thing I
Speaker 1: could say, one piece of advice, you know, like what
Speaker 1: would you tell somebody in a situation like that? And
Speaker 1: all I could ever say.
Speaker 3: Is please just keep going, keep trying, keep walking, trust
Speaker 3: because if you trust, and I know how difficult it.
Speaker 1: Is, you know for people who are in it, like
Speaker 1: it's easy for you to say, but if you keep trusting,
Speaker 1: the universe will open a door. And I know how
Speaker 1: hard it is to just wake up and keep it going,
Speaker 1: because for me it was hard just waking up in
Speaker 1: the morning. If I could get to four o'clock, I
Speaker 1: was like, okay, you made it another day, being able
Speaker 1: to have enough strength to just get up, get out
Speaker 1: of bed, put clothes on, get through your day. And
Speaker 1: let no one know that you're struggling. It is so hard.
Speaker 1: I feel really blessed. You know, when plant medicine came
Speaker 1: my way, it saved my life. And I know that
Speaker 1: there's still a lot of whatever around plant medicine. But
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you like this, and I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that that's for everybody, because my way out was
Speaker 1: a rugged four nights and it was just my thoughts,
Speaker 1: thoughts about myself. It was just my self hatred. The
Speaker 1: level of self hatred you have that I have had
Speaker 1: to want to take my own life and I had
Speaker 1: to walk four nights to clear up look at be
Speaker 1: with that level of self hatred. I was like, you
Speaker 1: want to talk about walking through the valley of the
Speaker 1: shadow of death that I'm really grateful for that experience
Speaker 1: because after that one night, I never thought about suicide again.
Speaker 2: After the ceremony.
Speaker 1: After the ceremony and it was really my last resort,
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, this has been brought my way.
Speaker 1: I'm going to try this and it worked. Praise God,
Speaker 1: Thank you. That's a really painful place for me still,
Speaker 1: and just thinking about how many people are sitting in
Speaker 1: that place, it really breaks my heart, trusting God. That's
Speaker 1: those moments where I just have to just be like, God,
Speaker 1: these are your children. You will take care and I
Speaker 1: pray that God you will provide the door you have
Speaker 1: provided for me.
Speaker 2: Thank you for being so vulnerable with us. I want
Speaker 2: to give you a big hug.
Speaker 1: I love you. Thank you. You've been such a wonderful friend.
Speaker 1: I really have. You've been by my side through some
Speaker 1: really tough stuff, only for more time, only for more
Speaker 1: challenges to come along the way.
Speaker 2: Never you know, I wouldn't have had the fortune of
Speaker 2: getting to meet you, And I'm really glad that you
Speaker 2: You know, we're so vulnerable with us just now, because
Speaker 2: I really feel like there's more people than we think
Speaker 2: that have those thoughts.
Speaker 1: Trust and believe it. You trust and believe it. There's people,
Speaker 1: there's people that you see every day that you would
Speaker 1: never believe. It's so funny to have that level of
Speaker 1: strength and that level of vulnerability and just you know,
Speaker 1: despair and at the same time that level of like
Speaker 1: helplessness that could drive you to do something like that.
Speaker 1: But a lot of times we just don't know how
Speaker 1: to communicate it. I didn't know how.
Speaker 2: I no one knew like the will.
Speaker 1: Oh no, and they knew I was very unhappy. That
Speaker 1: wasn't a secret, and people didn't understand why either. So
Speaker 1: let's talk about that for a minute. The shame that
Speaker 1: comes with those feelings, and specifically, like everybody feels that
Speaker 1: level of shame. I don't care what station of life
Speaker 1: you're existing in. And I would say I'm unhappy and
Speaker 1: people would look at me like I'm crazy, what are
Speaker 1: you unhappy about? And so then I just went in
Speaker 1: even more because I was like, They're right, Look what
Speaker 1: you accomplished. You've got this great family, You've got a
Speaker 1: great life. You got the house, the car, this and that.
Speaker 1: What's your problem? So then that's a hot cup of shame.
Speaker 1: So then you just I just shut down.
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Speaker 2: such a great note to put out there, because I
Speaker 2: think so many times we think like that about maybe
Speaker 2: our friends.
Speaker 1: Yes, just like you have somebody, you.
Speaker 2: Have so much. Yeah, that language can be so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I would suggest anybody don't say that. Don't
Speaker 1: say that to somebody who's saying I'm having a tough time,
Speaker 1: I'm struggling. Yeah, this you have that, No, what's going on?
Speaker 1: Tell me help me understand.
Speaker 2: Yeah, as ridiculous as it may sound to you, right
Speaker 2: to that person, that thought has been repeated so many times. Absolutely,
Speaker 2: even if it seems ridiculous to you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it can be so farign I get it. But
Speaker 1: that is somebody trying to step out and talk. So
Speaker 1: we have to have we have to be receptive. Is
Speaker 1: not to look at it, you know, and that is like,
Speaker 1: that's tricky too, because really being able to meet somebody
Speaker 1: where they are versus trying to meet somebody where you're at,
Speaker 1: and that in itself is a skill set. Just being
Speaker 1: able to go, Okay, hold it, what am I missing here?
Speaker 1: Let me just take a minute, let me blend with you,
Speaker 1: let me join you. I didn't have that, and it's
Speaker 1: nobody's fault, you know.
Speaker 2: I'm hoping that anyone who thinks anyone in their life
Speaker 2: is struggling will share what you just shared with us
Speaker 2: with them to start a conversation to open up that
Speaker 2: dialogue because I think you just said it now and
Speaker 2: it brought a thought to my mind that real love
Speaker 2: or real compassion is when you help someone get to
Speaker 2: the next step in their journey. Yeah, not in your journey.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And that means being able to be present with them
Speaker 2: wherever they are. Yeah. It seems like a foreign, alien
Speaker 2: land to you. I really feel like, if anyone has
Speaker 2: anyone in their life who's struggling, please send that to them,
Speaker 2: Please share that with them, because that they need to
Speaker 2: hear it from someone else who's been there. Sometimes also
Speaker 2: because if you've not been there, you don't you may
Speaker 2: not know how to say. And I think that's the
Speaker 2: other thing, right. The other side is one side is
Speaker 2: we say, oh, you should be happy, you're fine. The
Speaker 2: other side is we try and fix it.
Speaker 1: Yeah you can't, right, Yeah you can't, And that solve it.
Speaker 1: Can't There is no right you can't solve it. The
Speaker 1: best that we can do is, like, you can try
Speaker 1: to meet them where they are and let's get help.
Speaker 1: We can do it together and hold hands and get
Speaker 1: them to someone professional. I will say, it's really healing
Speaker 1: when someone can join you. It's also having that boundary
Speaker 1: of understanding too that you can only do but so
Speaker 1: much as well. A person has to really want help.
Speaker 1: And that's why I would tell the person that might
Speaker 1: be struggling to just stay open, to try everything.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I mean, like I tried ever rethinking until I found
Speaker 1: the thing, and just keep walking until you find the thing.
Speaker 2: That obviously happens a lot later on, even though you
Speaker 2: start the book with that, but there was a time
Speaker 2: when you believed that Hollywood, having it all, would do it,
Speaker 2: would do it, Yeah, even before you get to this point.
Speaker 2: And so and also what I find fascinating is you
Speaker 2: grew up where like drug dealing was normal. You were
Speaker 2: in that scene, you were meeting people. Everyone around you
Speaker 2: was in that scene. You weren't as from what I
Speaker 2: gathered from the book, in the time we spent together,
Speaker 2: there weren't a lot of people who were breaking that mold.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, what was it that made you you a believe
Speaker 2: that you could move to la when you were eighteen
Speaker 2: and break that mold and that you didn't have to
Speaker 2: fall into the pattern of everyone around you? And at
Speaker 2: the same time, secondly, what was it that made you
Speaker 2: believe that that would solve it that that was what
Speaker 2: was missing.
Speaker 1: Thank goodness. Along the way, I had great mentors like
Speaker 1: Donald Hicckin, you know, at Baltimore's School for the Yards.
Speaker 1: That was like, Jada, you've got more talent in the
Speaker 1: pinky of your your little pinky than most people have
Speaker 1: in their whole bodies. You know that He forced me
Speaker 1: to go, you know, into that audition for North Carolina
Speaker 1: School for the Arts, and that's what got me out
Speaker 1: of Baltimore so that I could just get away from
Speaker 1: that lifestyle and break that mentality right. And then once
Speaker 1: I got immersed again into my arts, I was like, wow,
Speaker 1: I really love this. And once I click into something
Speaker 1: like my mind goes perro, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: And then Pop came to La. Well, he wasn't in La.
Speaker 1: He was in northern California, and Pot kept saying, you
Speaker 1: gotta get out here. Is popping, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: And now he's like, you gotta come out here and visit,
Speaker 1: and so I was like, all right, I'm going to
Speaker 1: get out there. Pop was another one too that was
Speaker 1: just like you got it, Jada, you got it, And
Speaker 1: I'm like, all right, I'm coming. So I told my mom.
Speaker 1: I was like, you got two choices, cause I still
Speaker 1: wasn't quite sure yet.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I was like, I could go to LA and see
Speaker 1: if I can do this Hollywood thing, or I could
Speaker 1: become a lawyer and take all my dramatics to the
Speaker 1: cart right into the cartouse. And she said, We're going
Speaker 1: to La.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Once I got to La, I was like, you're here,
Speaker 1: make it happen. And part of what made me think
Speaker 1: that I could do it wasn't just about talent, but
Speaker 1: was just my perseverance and just my go I'm a
Speaker 1: pitbull when it comes to when I want something, you know,
Speaker 1: especially in my youth. I'm not so much pitful anymore,
Speaker 1: but in my youth. You know, once I put my
Speaker 1: mind to something, I was like, go get it. And
Speaker 1: I really felt like how everybody else feels, you know, like, yo,
Speaker 1: once I make it, once I'm rich and famous, all
Speaker 1: my problems are gonna be solved, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: My problems are gonna be solved, My mom's problems are
Speaker 1: gonna be solved. You know, everybody's probably gonna be solved.
Speaker 1: I got this, you know what I'm saying. So and
Speaker 1: that was a trip because that wasn't the case. And
Speaker 1: I think that that's still prevalent. People feel like once
Speaker 1: you get to a certain level of success, you are
Speaker 1: exempt from the human experience, you are exempt from the
Speaker 1: human condition. And the truth is that is not the case.
Speaker 1: And let me tell you. I had an existential drop
Speaker 1: in realizing hold it, wait a minute, hold it, Like
Speaker 1: my career is popping. I got money, I'm hot, I
Speaker 1: got every dude everywhere wanting to you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Like I can have anybody I want. Why am I
Speaker 1: not happy?
Speaker 2: God?
Speaker 1: Now, this wasn't This wasn't the plan. I couldn't believe it,
Speaker 1: because that was the whole idea. You make it, you
Speaker 1: pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, you make it
Speaker 1: in life's great and thank goodness. At that particular point
Speaker 1: in time, I had pac that I could go, like
Speaker 1: we could share that together because he was going through
Speaker 1: the same existential disappointment. He thought this same thing. That
Speaker 1: was like the beginning of just like, wait a minute, then,
Speaker 1: if it's not this, then what is it.
Speaker 2: It's incredible that you had a support a friend in
Speaker 2: in Tupac. You had this amazing friend who is saying
Speaker 2: you've got this you're talented and that can really help. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And at the same time, there's a whole nother inner journey. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that has to happen with it. So that was externally,
Speaker 2: it was empowering, it was inspiring. It was great to
Speaker 2: have someone believe in you and we don't need that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And at the same time, it was like this other
Speaker 2: reminder of.
Speaker 1: The inner world was not together yeah at all and
Speaker 1: being completely ignored, you know. And it would take me
Speaker 1: years to realize that that, Oh no, it's not just
Speaker 1: about what's happening on the outside, Jada, But if your
Speaker 1: inner world is not your foundation, it's all sand castles,
Speaker 1: you know. I had a nervous breakdown. Then I moved
Speaker 1: to Baltimore. I get a farmhouse there and I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna get out of La. So I'm making
Speaker 1: a geographical move, like I just got to get back
Speaker 1: to my roots, get back to my roots. And then
Speaker 1: Will comes along and I'm like, maybe that's it. I
Speaker 1: need a man you know that is like latch onto that.
Speaker 1: It's like, Okay, that's my new prozac. Will. You know,
Speaker 1: He's gonna now it's his job to make my life better.
Speaker 1: That doesn't work either, So the egos just attached to
Speaker 1: all these different exterior things until eventually, you know, I
Speaker 1: had to crash into really having to look at the
Speaker 1: shambles of my inner world and rebuild it and rebuild it.
Speaker 1: And I say rebuild it because I feel like when
Speaker 1: we're born, that inner world is intact. But I had
Speaker 1: to really strip it all down jay to the bear bones,
Speaker 1: the bolts, and just start inwardly from the bottom and
Speaker 1: just build. And it's been a wild ride. It's been
Speaker 1: a wild ride of what that means and what that
Speaker 1: looks like.
Speaker 2: When it comes to your friendship with Tupac, which you
Speaker 2: speak about so beautifully in the book, and it's so
Speaker 2: wonderful because we get an insight into him in a
Speaker 2: way that you don't as just a fan of the music, right,
Speaker 2: so as someone who grew up listening to him myself.
Speaker 2: It's like you get a certain perception of someone who's
Speaker 2: intelligent but then also has this gangster lifestyle and persona,
Speaker 2: et cetera. But then again, when you get context and
Speaker 2: you get to know about someone through someone who actually
Speaker 2: knows them, right, And what I really appreciate, which I
Speaker 2: found fascinating, was just how you had the wisdom at
Speaker 2: that time to know that someone would be a special
Speaker 2: friend without being romantic with them. Yeah, for us about it,
Speaker 2: because I feel like a lot of people struggle. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he was obviously into you and when you first met,
Speaker 2: et cetera, the way you describe it, but it's like,
Speaker 2: and there's even one point where you dare him to yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: And I want you to tell that. But but what
Speaker 2: I find fascinating and what I want to help people
Speaker 2: with here is like, how were you able to create
Speaker 2: and build a relationship with someone knowing initially that it
Speaker 2: was based on some attraction, right, but actually you knew
Speaker 2: there was so much more to it. How were you
Speaker 2: able to allow that to unfold? Because I think so
Speaker 2: many of us get so scared if we're not into someone,
Speaker 2: we go, Okay, I'm just going to push them away,
Speaker 2: or that person eventually tries to make a move anyway.
Speaker 2: But here it was like this beautiful respect. This you
Speaker 2: both created that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we both did. We both had the intelligence. You know,
Speaker 1: we were both really young, So I think I think
Speaker 1: the Great Supreme for this too. That there was no
Speaker 1: physical chemistry between us. I mean literally, it was like
Speaker 1: and I try to explain this to people. It was
Speaker 1: the same for Pac. It was just like when I
Speaker 1: dared him to kiss me, he was I mean, it
Speaker 1: was like ill for us both right, And it was like,
Speaker 1: how can that be? How can you feel so connected
Speaker 1: to someone of the opposite sex. There was just this
Speaker 1: beautiful understanding, you know when you can just sit with
Speaker 1: somebody in the room and you don't have to say
Speaker 1: a word and there's just this level of comfort. We
Speaker 1: just knew each other. The moment Pac saw me and
Speaker 1: our eyes and I saw his peanut head across the
Speaker 1: room at Baltimore School for the Arts, it was like
Speaker 1: I knew him already. We just got each other. I
Speaker 1: just understood him in that understanding, and he understood me.
Speaker 1: So we could pull each other's coattails, but we could
Speaker 1: also join each other. When I talk about that joining,
Speaker 1: when you can sit with somebody and really feel like
Speaker 1: they see you, they understand you, they care about you,
Speaker 1: and they're gonna be there by you no matter what.
Speaker 1: That was Tupac. He was gonna ride with me no
Speaker 1: matter what. He was so authentic, and it's rare that
Speaker 1: that level of authenticity, and he was so he had
Speaker 1: wore his hard on the sleeve, and there was just
Speaker 1: this amount of loyalty between us, and I think also
Speaker 1: the fact that we both struggled with mothers who were addicts,
Speaker 1: and we tried to compensate for one another of not
Speaker 1: having that peace, and we didn't boohoo about it. We
Speaker 1: understood how to fill in the voids without getting all
Speaker 1: hallmarky about it.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean.
Speaker 1: And so it was so we just kind of knew
Speaker 1: how to flow with each other in a way way
Speaker 1: that was very comfortable. Yeah, it's always hard to kind
Speaker 1: of explain because it was like, it's almost like he
Speaker 1: was really a kindred That's the only way I could
Speaker 1: really explain it. And I feel so lucky and so
Speaker 1: blessed that I got to know a being like himself
Speaker 1: in that way because he was such a dynamic person.
Speaker 1: But you can feel it because his music is still
Speaker 1: lasting for generations now, absolutely, you know. So he was
Speaker 1: just a treasure.
Speaker 2: Teach us what's the difference between sexual chemistry and energetic
Speaker 2: connection or authentic connection, because I think we often think
Speaker 2: that to get close to someone you need that, and
Speaker 2: here it's not just about the fact that there wasn't
Speaker 2: attraction or there's more to it in that. I feel
Speaker 2: like there's a subtle difference in how you were able
Speaker 2: to accept that there is an authentic connection. But it
Speaker 2: doesn't have to include it doesn't physical chemistry in order
Speaker 2: to have a deep energetic connection, If that makes sense,
Speaker 2: is it?
Speaker 1: I actually think in my experience some of the deepest
Speaker 1: connections that I've had with men have not included sex whatsoever, right,
Speaker 1: And I think that sex sometimes can cloud things. A
Speaker 1: lot of things come in that a lot of people
Speaker 1: don't understand, so you know, whether it's like certain levels
Speaker 1: of emotional trauma, all these kinds of things. Energetically, the
Speaker 1: heart to heart spirit space has a level of purity
Speaker 1: to it where even if things get difficult, like when
Speaker 1: things would get challenging with Pocinae, we could get to
Speaker 1: it fast and there's just a level of purity and
Speaker 1: it's not a tack to I want to make things
Speaker 1: right with you so I can sleep with you. You
Speaker 1: know what, It's not that agenda. The agendas are pure.
Speaker 1: They're more pure and it has more space. It's like,
Speaker 1: I love you, but you got to live your life.
Speaker 2: I can I can be.
Speaker 1: Truthful, I can be honest. I think that with us,
Speaker 1: I could be more of myself because one thing I
Speaker 1: knew about Pac I never had to worry about, you know,
Speaker 1: when we had big blow ups, which we did all
Speaker 1: the time, he's coming back. I never worried about that.
Speaker 1: I'm never worried. Oh my god, No, listen, what.
Speaker 2: It's a year?
Speaker 1: What it's a year, a week, three days. I had
Speaker 1: to love all that Pac was. He loved all that
Speaker 1: I was, the good and the bad, and he was
Speaker 1: going to be right there with that and vice versa.
Speaker 1: That was one of the most beautiful aspects of our relationship.
Speaker 1: We didn't have to fake it, we didn't have to
Speaker 1: pretend to be other things, and we could be honest.
Speaker 1: He could pull my coattails, I could pull his coattails.
Speaker 1: I could give him all the praise and love on
Speaker 1: him all I wanted to and not have to worry about, Oh, oh,
Speaker 1: now we're gonna have to have sex, you know, like
Speaker 1: none of that, because that wasn't happening. We just didn't
Speaker 1: have We just didn't have it. I think if Pac
Speaker 1: had survived Vegas, he and Will would have ended up
Speaker 1: being really good friends. You know, they would have had
Speaker 1: a lot to offer one another. And funny enough, Will
Speaker 1: was the only person when I started dating him. Pac
Speaker 1: never said anything. If I dated anybody else, Pack had
Speaker 1: had something to say. He didn't think anybody was good enough,
Speaker 1: which I understand, right, But when I started dating Will,
Speaker 1: he didn't say anything which meant to me in his
Speaker 1: own way he approved, right, right, He didn't say anything.
Speaker 1: It was was like okay, a not a word which
Speaker 1: made me believe he approved.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I think it's it's so beautiful to reflect
Speaker 2: on that friendship because I think it's so hope giving.
Speaker 2: There's so many people who you know, sometimes lose out
Speaker 2: on those kind of relationships because we don't see where
Speaker 2: else it can go. Oh, there's so much value. There's
Speaker 2: so much value to that. And there's the you know,
Speaker 2: the part of the book where you talk about how
Speaker 2: you never got to be there when Vegas happened, Like
Speaker 2: you weren't there, You hadn't talked for a year. I
Speaker 2: think at the.
Speaker 1: Time, big, Yeah, we had a big blow up.
Speaker 2: What would you have said to him, or what would
Speaker 2: you say to him? Or what what? What did you
Speaker 2: want him to know? Or what were you so sure
Speaker 2: that he already knew? And you're thinking to yourself, I
Speaker 2: just wanted to remind him of this, what would that be?
Speaker 1: I didn't have to remind him of anything. He knew
Speaker 1: it pak, I adored him. I have no doubt in
Speaker 1: my mind that he left this world knowing that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's never been the issue for me. We did that
Speaker 1: dance a lot. Sometimes have blow ups, and we're both
Speaker 1: very stubborn, and I'll let people read the book to
Speaker 1: that blow up and what led to that. But I
Speaker 1: think sometimes what sometimes still hurts is that me feeling
Speaker 1: like maybe I couldn't do enough once he left, Like
Speaker 1: I'm thinking to myself, oh my god, what would pack
Speaker 1: have done? Like if it had been me in a
Speaker 1: car in Vegas and got you know, he would have
Speaker 1: read Tavoc. So that ego sometimes comes into play, like
Speaker 1: just feeling so helpless that he was taken in that
Speaker 1: way and there was nothing I could do. To this
Speaker 1: day that gnaws at me.
Speaker 2: You know, for what it's worth, I really believe that
Speaker 2: the way you write, and by the way everyone who's
Speaker 2: listening and watching, there is so much more to unpack
Speaker 2: in the book, which I highly recommend you read as
Speaker 2: you're going through it, and you'll come to this part.
Speaker 2: But I really believe that the way you honor and
Speaker 2: appreciate and respect your dear friend in the book is
Speaker 2: really beautiful and special and it's like it's hard to
Speaker 2: describe as well, but it's a really wonderful lens into
Speaker 2: a human is so, you know, larger than life in
Speaker 2: so many ways.
Speaker 1: And I wanted to also kind of there's been so
Speaker 1: many misconceptions about our relationship because people are like, you know,
Speaker 1: have a difficult time understanding that he and I could
Speaker 1: actually be friends. But just wanted to give people such
Speaker 1: just an insight on, you know, the beauty of our
Speaker 1: friendship that I just cherish to this day so very much,
Speaker 1: you know. And I wanted to give people a different
Speaker 1: outlook just of who he was. And I'll say who
Speaker 1: he is because he still exists so quick, you know,
Speaker 1: but so I really wanted that to come across.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Well, we got to understand him, I think
Speaker 2: through you through the perspective of not a rapper, not
Speaker 2: a icon', not a but a human and a friend
Speaker 2: and like what he was like as a friend. And
Speaker 2: I think that that's a very intimate way to know
Speaker 2: about someone. So I love that I wanted to talk
Speaker 2: to you about you. You mentioned there you were like
Speaker 2: Will was the only person that Puck didn't tu Puk
Speaker 2: didn't have an issue. And I love that, and you
Speaker 2: know how much I mean, you know, I've always been
Speaker 2: open about it, and we've talked about it, and I
Speaker 2: met Will through you, and it's like I I've always
Speaker 2: said that when I met you and the whole family,
Speaker 2: and when I met him, you were everything in more
Speaker 2: all of you are everything and more right. And what
Speaker 2: I mean by that is everything i'd wanted you to be,
Speaker 2: plus so much more right. And he's that too in
Speaker 2: so many ways. And I think that it's really interesting
Speaker 2: because when you're talking about in the book of like,
Speaker 2: I love the conversation you refer to, and you're like
Speaker 2: your mom's like, you know, get him off the phone.
Speaker 1: That's one of her moments, Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2: But what I love about it the most is that
Speaker 2: it is true that from the outside, as you set
Speaker 2: it up, it looks like a fairy tale and it
Speaker 2: felt like that. And what I find really fascinating about this,
Speaker 2: again and again and again pretty much with everyone, is
Speaker 2: that there is no fairy tale love anyway on planet
Speaker 2: on the planet, and you know, in our own little way.
Speaker 2: I always talk about this with me and Radi too.
Speaker 2: It's like we'll do an interview together where Radi will
Speaker 2: tell me all the challenges she has with me, and
Speaker 2: she'll be crying and upset, and then everyone in the
Speaker 2: comments will still be like, you guys are saying so cute. No, no, no,
Speaker 2: But we're not trying to say we're cute. Like this
Speaker 2: is like real issue, like real stuff that you know,
Speaker 2: we've talked about it obviously, you spend a ton of
Speaker 2: time in me and Radi, and so I think for me,
Speaker 2: what's really interesting is that, yes, from the outside, when
Speaker 2: you see two incredible actors, performers, artists, talent get together,
Speaker 2: you're like, wow, powerhouse couple. Everyone projects their expectations. You
Speaker 2: have beautiful, adorable kids, you know, like Jaden's acting and
Speaker 2: he's like the cutest thing in the world, and Willow too,
Speaker 2: And it's like it's so interesting because we also we
Speaker 2: like to build up our dreams in people, and we
Speaker 2: like to project our dreams onto people because I think
Speaker 2: as viewers it makes us believe that it's possible, and
Speaker 2: we live through people and we aspire for it not
Speaker 2: that we aspire for the success and the fame, but
Speaker 2: that we aspire for the like, well, if they can
Speaker 2: get it right, then I can get it right. And
Speaker 2: it's not it's an innocent, absolute belief that we all have.
Speaker 2: It's not a we we all have that inside of us,
Speaker 2: So we all have this. I know that I had that,
Speaker 2: like you know, I was searched it the other day
Speaker 2: and it's a term, it's Disney princess syndrome. And I
Speaker 2: was like, I've had Disney princess syndrome like myself, like
Speaker 2: a ton of times, and it's so fascinating to be
Speaker 2: for anyone who doesn't get the reference. The point is
Speaker 2: that every Disney princess is always looking for her princes.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, And I would say regardless of gender, that's true.
Speaker 2: Like I feel that way where I've been looking for
Speaker 2: my princess or my win or my award or whatever
Speaker 2: it may be. And I wanted you to walk us through,
Speaker 2: like what were the stages and how would you define
Speaker 2: the stages as you do in this book, your stages
Speaker 2: of your relationship with Will, because I feel that that's
Speaker 2: the part that people get blurry because they're looking at
Speaker 2: it through their lens. But you both have been so
Speaker 2: clear about stages of your relationship internally, which I actually
Speaker 2: think is the hardest part. And so how would you
Speaker 2: define the stages of your partnership? Will that help people
Speaker 2: understand like the conversations that you're having behind the scenes,
Speaker 2: from like being madly in love to you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, wo the stages of getting to the most authentic
Speaker 1: and it's difficult. So I just want to honor that
Speaker 1: for a second. Like it's almost like talking about relationships
Speaker 1: and the romanticism around the idea of relating is sometimes
Speaker 1: as detrimental as talking about politics and God because it's
Speaker 1: such a staple in how people look at marriage and
Speaker 1: relating culturally right, and all of the romanticism around it.
Speaker 1: And Will and I have been what I would consider
Speaker 1: kind of the relationship goals, this romanticized version. I had
Speaker 1: to in my own relationship with Will dissolve my romanticism
Speaker 1: around what I thought marriage would be should be. And honestly,
Speaker 1: we really never had what I would consider the ideal
Speaker 1: honeymoon stage, you know, even though you do have the
Speaker 1: honeymoon stage. But our relationship started with some challenges, you know,
Speaker 1: because he was divorcing, and then our life just took
Speaker 1: off like a rocket ship. We just took on this
Speaker 1: huge life in our early twenties, and where his focus
Speaker 1: was really about, Hey, I want to be the biggest
Speaker 1: movie star in the world. And I knew that going
Speaker 1: into our relationship, and I knew there would be sacrifices
Speaker 1: with that, and then along the way, and I talk
Speaker 1: about this in the book, just having those different perspectives
Speaker 1: and really trying to figure out how to reconcile those
Speaker 1: different perspectives and also deal with a lot of challenges.
Speaker 1: So I think one of the things that I address
Speaker 1: in the book in regards to, you know, people thinking
Speaker 1: that we've had an open marriage and we haven't had
Speaker 1: an open marriage. I talk about starting off pretty much
Speaker 1: early on in our marriage of having the need for transparency.
Speaker 1: And that is a big difference between hey, you can
Speaker 1: do whatever you want, you know, versus like, hey, here
Speaker 1: we are very young people in this place called Hollywood
Speaker 1: that has a lot of temptation. Let's have a partnership
Speaker 1: around this. Let's be very very realistic of what this
Speaker 1: life is. If we're talking about we're going to be
Speaker 1: together forever and ever and ever, that means there's gonna
Speaker 1: be some temptations that come up. Let's be in partnership
Speaker 1: and let's talk about that. I didn't go into my
Speaker 1: marriage like I am going to be my husband is
Speaker 1: never ever ever going to look at anybody else.
Speaker 2: Like I.
Speaker 1: Just I am just a realist in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1: I know what it's been like for me right when
Speaker 1: I first came to Hollywood and I could go into
Speaker 1: the clubs and have anybody just the level of just
Speaker 1: like that, just like it's just like you just it's
Speaker 1: so intoxicating. That's one. Now, what I do believe that
Speaker 1: what people don't know that I talk about in the
Speaker 1: book a lot is that there have been several breakups
Speaker 1: between Will and I. Will talks about it my fortieth birthday,
Speaker 1: which was a big breakup for us. We were actually
Speaker 1: looking towards separating and divorcing, and we separated. The world
Speaker 1: just didn't know. Then we had a reconciliation, and then
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen came and we had the ultimate break but
Speaker 1: the world didn't know. And I think that that's where
Speaker 1: some of the misconception about having an open marriage came
Speaker 1: into play, because we were living lives as single people
Speaker 1: and the world didn't know. Over the span of twelve
Speaker 1: years of just trying to figure out this thing called
Speaker 1: love and marriage between Will and I, it's been a trip.
Speaker 1: And I think that even with that entanglement piece, which
Speaker 1: I talk about extensively in the book, how I played
Speaker 1: a part in the conception of that narrative of allowing
Speaker 1: myself to be portrayed as an adulteress, allowing myself to
Speaker 1: be portrayed as someone that had betrayed Will, and that
Speaker 1: wasn't the case. We broke up in twenty sixteen. He
Speaker 1: went on to live a life as a single man.
Speaker 1: I went on to live a life as a single woman.
Speaker 1: And then when we had the talk at the Red Table,
Speaker 1: I was going to go to the Red Table by
Speaker 1: myself to talk about the entanglement, but Will decided he
Speaker 1: wanted to come with me, and we were going to
Speaker 1: then tell the world, Hey, we haven't been together, and
Speaker 1: this happened during that time. Well, when we got to
Speaker 1: the table, Will wasn't ready. He wasn't ready, He wasn't
Speaker 1: ready for the world to know that. I had to
Speaker 1: respect that. Well, I didn't have to, but I wanted to,
Speaker 1: But I was ready. I was ready to let go
Speaker 1: of the persona I had created around myself that had
Speaker 1: put me in a golden cage. I wanted to let
Speaker 1: that go, and so I had to stay on my journey.
Speaker 1: I had to stay on my path while also respecting
Speaker 1: that will wasn't ready. So I said, you know what,
Speaker 1: this is my mess anyway, I'm going to take this
Speaker 1: heat because guess what. The heat is coming either way,
Speaker 1: whether when we decide to get divorced, when we decided
Speaker 1: to separate, whatever, whatever, this is my practice. Run strip
Speaker 1: it down, let it go, Jada, and then let's see
Speaker 1: what's left. I didn't have to put that particular show out,
Speaker 1: but I had already gotten myself so ready for that
Speaker 1: journey for myself and to me, that was moving closer
Speaker 1: to my freedom than holding back and creating a narrative
Speaker 1: that I felt like was just going to entrap me
Speaker 1: more and as difficult as it's been, because the irony is,
Speaker 1: I spent so much of our relationship having this open
Speaker 1: communication between the between he and I, creating this beautiful
Speaker 1: friendship of authenticity and honesty, and so to be labeled
Speaker 1: as someone who had cheated on him was devastating, But
Speaker 1: it also put me in a position where I had
Speaker 1: to learn how to let go of what anybody thought
Speaker 1: about me and really be ten toes down on understanding
Speaker 1: who I am and being able to walk in that
Speaker 1: no matter what anybody thought about me. But I needed
Speaker 1: that journey for myself.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like that is the walk when they
Speaker 1: talk about walking on hot coals. It's like creating that
Speaker 1: level of when we talk about that inner world work
Speaker 1: and creating that like strong foundation within yourself of knowing
Speaker 1: exactly who you are no matter what other people think
Speaker 1: about you. I mean, I've gotten that to a certain degree.
Speaker 1: And so that was a very challenging moment, and I
Speaker 1: talk about it in the book because I feel like
Speaker 1: so many people are challenged in that way of like
Speaker 1: how can I just walk in this world and be
Speaker 1: okay with myself no matter what? And I talk about
Speaker 1: the journey, you know, really extensively in the book. But
Speaker 1: there have been so many misconceptions about my relationship with Will.
Speaker 1: But I think that everybody suffers misconceptions. Once again, whether
Speaker 1: you're head of that PTA and your husband's that doctor,
Speaker 1: and you're the lawyer, you know what I mean, You're
Speaker 1: you're like the Crume Delo Crame of your friend group
Speaker 1: or you know, of your community, and so everybody's expecting
Speaker 1: you to have a certain kind of marriage. And marriage
Speaker 1: is a journey, you know, And it's a journey towards
Speaker 1: learning how to love yourself and learning how to love
Speaker 1: your partner. And there's not one way to do it.
Speaker 1: And everybody, I think we do that journey a real
Speaker 1: disservice of trying to make it this cookie cut thing
Speaker 1: like no, no, no, you can only do it this way.
Speaker 1: And it's like each and every person in their relationship
Speaker 1: they have to look at what their relationship is calling
Speaker 1: for in regards to what is needed to get your
Speaker 1: marriage to the love, to the strength, to the understanding,
Speaker 1: to the friendship and to that unconditional place. And the
Speaker 1: unfortunate part is that we think once we get married,
Speaker 1: like somebody's ready made, they know how to love you,
Speaker 1: even though they don't know how to love themselves. They
Speaker 1: don't know they don't know how to love themselves. But
Speaker 1: you better know how to love me.
Speaker 2: I want to highlight because I think it's often it
Speaker 2: can be missed. At least, is you know when you
Speaker 2: had that conversation on Red Table Talk. It would have
Speaker 2: been so easy to not have that conversation publicly because
Speaker 2: people would have their rumors. Yeah, it would blow over
Speaker 2: and then it would be over. And I'm only raising
Speaker 2: this because I know how much for you it was
Speaker 2: part of the work you were doing. Yeah, And that's
Speaker 2: why I'm raising this because I think what's really interesting
Speaker 2: is that when someone's trying to do deep in a
Speaker 2: healing work. Yeah, actually, more often than not, their external
Speaker 2: way will not make sense.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, first, because it.
Speaker 2: Literally looks like you're setting yourself up to fail. Because
Speaker 2: when you're really trying to dismantle the ego or you're
Speaker 2: really trying to deconstruct the false identities that we all
Speaker 2: build up me included all of us. Like when when
Speaker 2: that is there and it's being deconstructed, someone would look
Speaker 2: at you and be like why would you do that?
Speaker 2: Like why do I need to know what? And really
Speaker 2: I just want to highlight and I want you to
Speaker 2: share about that that the intention was healing. The intention
Speaker 2: wasn't to save face or the intention and I know
Speaker 2: this because we were talking about it. The intention wasn't It.
Speaker 1: Wasn't to save face, and it surely wasn't. And I
Speaker 1: need people to know I didn't ask Bill to come
Speaker 1: to the table. Yeah, that was not my idea. Will
Speaker 1: wanted to come to the table because he didn't want
Speaker 1: me to be there by myself. He had all the
Speaker 1: best intention yea, and got there and was I think
Speaker 1: his trauma response kicked in, like I'm not ready. So
Speaker 1: many people were like, don't do this, and I'm like, nah,
Speaker 1: I'm doing it.
Speaker 2: For myself, for myself because I want to live, because
Speaker 2: I'm ready.
Speaker 1: I don't want this whole thing anymore, this whole data Will,
Speaker 1: I'm done with that. It was part of the work
Speaker 1: that I was ready for and it was what I needed.
Speaker 1: And everybody's in different places in their journey. Also. That's
Speaker 1: also a dynamic I had to look at within myself
Speaker 1: in regards to So it's two things. There's this healthy
Speaker 1: data is like tear it down. I want to. I
Speaker 1: don't want that persona anymore. Terror I ain't go down.
Speaker 1: And there was this other part of me that was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I need to pretend. You know, he's
Speaker 1: not ready. You know he's not ready. My you know,
Speaker 1: codependency kicks in and I go, this is what I do.
Speaker 1: I'm the martyr. I can do the martyr thing. So
Speaker 1: once again, it's both things. It's healing like I'm ready,
Speaker 1: like I'm ready for I'm ready for the tear down,
Speaker 1: and then this martyr that's like and I want to
Speaker 1: make sure Will, as long as you're okay, I'm okay.
Speaker 1: That's part of my relationship with my mother's addiction that
Speaker 1: I brought into my relationship with Will. That created a
Speaker 1: certain dynamic within myself in my relationship with him that
Speaker 1: I also needed to get my eyes on that I
Speaker 1: didn't see that that needed to be healed as well.
Speaker 1: Without that table, without that moment, I would have never
Speaker 1: recognized that as painful as it was for people to watch,
Speaker 1: existential disappoint meant in a collective. I'm so sorry. I
Speaker 1: wish it could have happened another way. I'm sorry that
Speaker 1: it had to be so messy in front of everybody.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but I needed that what I got to
Speaker 1: clear up, what I got to clean up, what I
Speaker 1: got to see, and to be able to sit here
Speaker 1: with you today and embrace it all and have so
Speaker 1: much acceptance for myself for all of the choices I've
Speaker 1: made and people ask me, if you had to do
Speaker 1: it over again, would you do it any different?
Speaker 2: I don't think so, honestly. Like knowing and talking to you,
Speaker 2: I found it to be so courageous and so full
Speaker 2: of strength because it was putting yourself on the spot,
Speaker 2: like in no other way. And I can't even begin
Speaker 2: to understand how uncomfortable it is. I only can from
Speaker 2: the conversations we.
Speaker 1: Had, Well, you were right there with me day at.
Speaker 2: The level of discomfort. Yeah, you were willing to put
Speaker 2: yourself in in order to let go of an identity,
Speaker 2: in order to let go of a perception. Like I'm
Speaker 2: saying it in these words because I just want everyone
Speaker 2: who's listening watching just to think about it for a second. Like,
Speaker 2: imagine you had to go in front of everyone you knew,
Speaker 2: your family, your friends, your school, whoever it is that
Speaker 2: you're around, your people at work, and you had to
Speaker 2: share a secret that wasn't a secret between you and
Speaker 2: the person you're with, but was a secret to them.
Speaker 2: To just think about that whatever that secret is, right,
Speaker 2: Everyone has secrets, everyone has something you know, and to
Speaker 2: do that requires just so much courage and strength, And
Speaker 2: it also shows the I think you were just apologizing
Speaker 2: that it was so messy. I also think that it
Speaker 2: is uncomfortable, like growth is uncomfortable, and like letting go
Speaker 2: of shedding identities is uncomfortable. And I'm not comparing my
Speaker 2: experience to you as at all because it's not the
Speaker 2: same in any way. But I'm trying to explain how
Speaker 2: like a tiny PDA like my kind of like version
Speaker 2: of it is still as big. I remember the day
Speaker 2: I told my friends and my family and my teachers
Speaker 2: that I no longer thought I could be a monk.
Speaker 2: And it sounds so small like now that but at
Speaker 2: the time as someone who would like I was dedicating
Speaker 2: my life. You've met my teachers, you know I'm dedicating
Speaker 2: my life. I'm like doing this big thing. And then
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I come to the conclusion that
Speaker 2: this thought in my head of I'm not good enough,
Speaker 2: I'm not a monk, I'm not meant to be like,
Speaker 2: this isn't my path, whatever it may be. I think
Speaker 2: I should get married, you know all the stuff, and
Speaker 2: you're so you feel so much shame around the fact
Speaker 2: that you're not good enough and what are people going
Speaker 2: to say? And even for me, that was just my
Speaker 2: temple community and my friends and my family, and even
Speaker 2: then it was like as if someone was ripping my
Speaker 2: ego out of my chest. Yeah, because that's what it
Speaker 2: feels like. It feels like an extraction of you know,
Speaker 2: not that I'm ego less now, but that was such
Speaker 2: a big way of crushing that part of my ego.
Speaker 2: And so I just want people to think about it
Speaker 2: through that perspective. And I'm saying it because I think
Speaker 2: that we all go through periods in our life where
Speaker 2: people misunderstand us. We all go through periods in our
Speaker 2: life where the people we thought loved us and adored
Speaker 2: us will now be let down. We all go through
Speaker 2: experiences in our life where we have to let go
Speaker 2: of someone that we thought we were or what people
Speaker 2: thought we were, and those are going to be the hardest,
Speaker 2: most painful times. And actually, if we can learn to
Speaker 2: be graceful instead of when our friends are getting divorced
Speaker 2: and we're like, did you hear so? We had that
Speaker 2: couple of people in my community back at home just
Speaker 2: got divorced. The whole community is talking about it, and
Speaker 2: I'm just like, guys, like, we have no idea what
Speaker 2: was going on for the last ten twenty years. Let's
Speaker 2: give them grace because you never know, and that could
Speaker 2: be you. You have no idea when it could be you.
Speaker 2: You know, we're so it's so easy to to judge
Speaker 2: and throw stones at anyone and everyone, like you know,
Speaker 2: And I just really feel that if we have the
Speaker 2: ability to be graceful and compassionate when other people are
Speaker 2: doing that, yeah, we'll actually do it with ourselves. And
Speaker 2: because we're hard on ourselves, yep, we're hard on others,
Speaker 2: we're hard on others, we're hard on ourselves. And I
Speaker 2: just for me, I just want to see more people
Speaker 2: be graceful for themselves and for others because there's so
Speaker 2: much human experience wrapped up in it.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's my hope too, you know that people
Speaker 1: can have more grace for themselves. But I tell you,
Speaker 1: I think one of the saving factors was that, you know,
Speaker 1: there were no secrets between Will and I. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And there were no secrets between my kids and I. Yes,
Speaker 1: So the fact that my family was absolutely aware of
Speaker 1: the entire journey, it was a saving grace for me.
Speaker 1: Whatever the world wants to think is whatever you know,
Speaker 1: Will knows he was not betrayed. And my kids know
Speaker 1: that I did not betray their father, and that to
Speaker 1: me all that matters. But it was quite a exercise
Speaker 1: of having to walk in the world like that, you know,
Speaker 1: having people think that that's what happened. Just having that
Speaker 1: exercise in that way has been such a healing factor
Speaker 1: for me of just the level of self love, the
Speaker 1: level of self worth that I have because of what
Speaker 1: that experience has offered me. And I'm not saying that
Speaker 1: anybody else should do it on that level, you know,
Speaker 1: But what I am saying is that there are ego
Speaker 1: deaths that have to occur in order to get to
Speaker 1: a more authentic place of self worth and self love.
Speaker 2: And I want to talk about the little gurus, as
Speaker 2: you call them in the book. We start with Trey,
Speaker 2: who you know this book is dedicated to your daughter
Speaker 2: and the daughters of the people that read it, and
Speaker 2: to your sons yea, and to the sons of the
Speaker 2: people that read it. And I wonder, what is it
Speaker 2: that you think you've learned from Trey, that you've been
Speaker 2: taught by Jaden and that you've been taught by Willow
Speaker 2: in your journey with them all Because you have such
Speaker 2: a whenever I've seen you with them. You have such
Speaker 2: a deep, beautiful, rich relationship video kids. We were talking
Speaker 2: about that earlier. Yeah, I would love to know what
Speaker 2: is it that each of them have taught you.
Speaker 1: Trey, he has such an enormous heart. And I think
Speaker 1: what I love about Trey is his ability to meet people,
Speaker 1: join people where they are, ability to join me. He
Speaker 1: has a way of seeing the best in people, no
Speaker 1: matter what, the best in circumstances, no matter what, and
Speaker 1: even in his most challenging times challenging relationships, having the
Speaker 1: willingness to see the person's spirit versus personality. And he's
Speaker 1: always reminded me of that. You know, mom, you know
Speaker 1: that person? You know what I mean? And I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know what trade you?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: He and I have kind of been walking parallel. We'll
Speaker 1: look over at each other and go, I see you,
Speaker 1: and he goes, I see you. You know, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean? And so you know, we're the two
Speaker 1: in the family that's really been on a intense walk spiritually.
Speaker 1: And he has so much perseverance in regards to understanding God,
Speaker 1: finding his way understanding life. I don't know if you know,
Speaker 1: he's just such a he's such a light, you know,
Speaker 1: so iron sharpens iron. He'll walk in the kitchen and go, mom,
Speaker 1: look at me, what do you think I'm feeling today?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. Or he'll look at me
Speaker 1: and go, wow, you know you're you're like bright, what's
Speaker 1: going on with you? Like he can just see me
Speaker 1: and he can see people, you know, and I'd be like, wow,
Speaker 1: how did you see that? This is happening? This is
Speaker 1: that He's like really, you know, and he's he's just
Speaker 1: he's just such a light. He's just such a joy.
Speaker 1: And so he just is always reminding me to look
Speaker 1: for the best in people. And I just adore him
Speaker 1: and is why he's a bonus, you know. And then Willow, Oh,
Speaker 1: she's such a fireball. I mean she she is like
Speaker 1: the mirror of the fire of my soul when I
Speaker 1: tell you, she is the mirror of that, Like I
Speaker 1: get to see myself in her in so many ways.
Speaker 1: What I love most about Willow is that she is
Speaker 1: to the point, you know what I mean, she is
Speaker 1: like she doesn't have a whole lot of play play.
Speaker 1: She's just like no, no, she just hits it on
Speaker 1: the mark. Where sometimes I can be very flowery, you know,
Speaker 1: very gentle. And I also love how she loves me.
Speaker 1: She teaches me a lot about love. She teaches me
Speaker 1: a lot about When I talked about being able to
Speaker 1: join like, she teaches me a lot about how to
Speaker 1: join her and how to join others in ways that
Speaker 1: I'm not used to. I know how to join others
Speaker 1: in ways that I'm used to, but me having to
Speaker 1: learn how to join her in a certain manner. I've
Speaker 1: had to come out of my comfort zone and really
Speaker 1: be like, oh man, I'm very deficient here, and her
Speaker 1: patience with me with that deficiency, She's so patient with me.
Speaker 1: She's like, it's okay, Mom. You know sometimes that I
Speaker 1: don't need you to talk to me. Mom, just hold me.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, that's all you want me to do?
Speaker 1: You just want me, That's all. I'm not used to that.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't come from a family where affection.
Speaker 1: You know that we don't. We don't hug each other
Speaker 1: and hold each other. That's not what we did. But willowy, Ma,
Speaker 1: I don't need your advice. I just want to sit here,
Speaker 1: hold me while I cry. And then I have to
Speaker 1: learn how to I've had to learn she's taught me
Speaker 1: how to hold tears and really be able to join
Speaker 1: with those tears and not rebel and you know, like
Speaker 1: have them repel because then they bring up my tears.
Speaker 1: And so she's learned. She's taught me how to love
Speaker 1: my tears too, you know, those places within myself that
Speaker 1: I haven't always been willing to go, you know. And
Speaker 1: now I cry all the time, you know, And I
Speaker 1: call it the thawing because for so long I wasn't allowed.
Speaker 1: I didn't allow myself to cry, you know. So she's
Speaker 1: taught me that. And then there's Jaden. Oh man, Jaden,
Speaker 1: he's just walking joy. I mean he comes in the room,
Speaker 1: it's just like Jaden, you know, he's just walking joy.
Speaker 1: But he was like that when I carried him. I
Speaker 1: was the happiest I had ever been in my life
Speaker 1: when I was pregnant with Jaden. And I think that
Speaker 1: I had a lot to do with the energy that
Speaker 1: he carries. He has the capacity to love everything, and
Speaker 1: that is difficulty, challenging people, challenging situations. He has the
Speaker 1: capacity to love it all and find the beauty in it.
Speaker 1: And I'm talking about sincerely, and it is like that's
Speaker 1: a god given gift. That's not you can't teach that.
Speaker 1: So he just I was sitting out, you know, I
Speaker 1: was just talking to him the other day and I
Speaker 1: was just like, oh, I was reading this book Emotionally
Speaker 1: Immature Parents, and I was like, Jane, you got to
Speaker 1: read this book. Your mother has been an emotionally imstry parents.
Speaker 1: I said, you got to read this book. And he said,
Speaker 1: you know what, ma, He said, things from Afar can
Speaker 1: look a certain way, but when you put a microscope
Speaker 1: up on something and you look at it close up,
Speaker 1: he was like, it is such a weird shape, weird
Speaker 1: beautiful shapes of things, but you get to see the
Speaker 1: intricacies of it and it's so much more. And that's
Speaker 1: what you are to me. You're like this beautiful, intricate
Speaker 1: organism that I love so much. Don't ever apologize to
Speaker 1: me again, you know what I mean. And that's just
Speaker 1: how his mind works, you know. And he comes over
Speaker 1: and he hugs me and he kisses me on my forehead,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. And he's like, you gave
Speaker 1: birth to me that, don't ever apologize to me, you know.
Speaker 1: And he's like, and I'm not reading our book I'm
Speaker 1: gonna get you the book anyway. You know, I'm always
Speaker 1: apologizing to my kids about all kinds of things. I
Speaker 1: think it's so important for parents to apologize, say sorry.
Speaker 1: You know, I've gotten in the habit every little like
Speaker 1: if I misunderstand something, or if there's like this like
Speaker 1: little glip, you know what, I didn't quite get that,
Speaker 1: then I'm so sorry. I apologize. I'm gonna do better
Speaker 1: next time with that, and thank you for your patience.
Speaker 1: I think it's important, you know. I wish my father
Speaker 1: had apologized to me more. My mom apologizes too. I
Speaker 1: actually learned that from her. She's apologized a lot, and
Speaker 1: I actually said the same thing to her now that
Speaker 1: i'm thinking about it, apologizing.
Speaker 2: But isn't that that those are the best relationships where
Speaker 2: someone does something yeah, and the other person is like,
Speaker 2: it's fine, yeah, And that's what kind of It's that
Speaker 2: relationship where internally you're happy you heard it, but you
Speaker 2: know you didn't need to the person still felt the
Speaker 2: need to say it, and it creates so much clarity.
Speaker 2: And you know, when I told Willow you were coming
Speaker 2: on today, she sent a little note oh, because I
Speaker 2: was I was talking to her about it, and I
Speaker 2: was talking to her about the book, and so she
Speaker 2: sent this little note that I want to read to you.
Speaker 1: If that's okay, Oh my god, let me keep my napkin.
Speaker 2: So she said, this is from Willow and Willow. If
Speaker 2: I don't read it as you would in your amazing voice,
Speaker 2: then please forgive me. I'm also apologizing to you in advance. Mum.
Speaker 2: I am incomprehensibly proud of you and all of the
Speaker 2: inner excavation you you have done during the writing of
Speaker 2: your book. There were many times during the process where
Speaker 2: you would read me sections and deep emotions would come
Speaker 2: up for us. Both learning from you through learning about
Speaker 2: you is one of the biggest joys of my life.
Speaker 2: You never cease to inspire me with how wide you've
Speaker 2: opened your heart, not only to the immense joys of life,
Speaker 2: but also to the deep uncertainties and shadows with equal
Speaker 2: gratitude and grace. You have shown me true tenderness and
Speaker 2: true strength come from the same place within, and that
Speaker 2: is something that I aspire to show others. Thank you
Speaker 2: for loving me. I'm so grateful for you.
Speaker 1: And the Guru. That's the little Guru right there, there,
Speaker 1: it is.
Speaker 2: She loves you so much, and they will obviously love
Speaker 2: you so much. But when I read that, and when
Speaker 2: I was reflecting on it, is just and as me
Speaker 2: and Roddy always talk about this, because we've watched you
Speaker 2: in Willow so many times together and it has been
Speaker 2: so inspiring to us to see that connection you both
Speaker 2: have and the openness you have with your kids and
Speaker 2: how well they understand you. And you know, as you
Speaker 2: were just saying, you always apologizing, but that's what they're seeing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they see that because you're so willing to share with them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't keep secrets from my kids. I've let
Speaker 1: them see my deepest flaws. And I think that's important.
Speaker 1: I mean, and not in the way that we have
Speaker 1: to be careful with that too, but I mean just
Speaker 1: as far as like it's okay to be human, not
Speaker 1: being afraid to show my humanness, because that's the one
Speaker 1: thing with my mother that I have so much gratitude
Speaker 1: for that I could see her as a human being
Speaker 1: and my relationship with you know, my mother being an addict,
Speaker 1: and me being able to relate to her as not
Speaker 1: just my mother, but as a woman, you know, as
Speaker 1: a person. And I think that was one aspect that
Speaker 1: I felt like I really needed to bring into my
Speaker 1: relationship with my kids for them to see me as
Speaker 1: a person ran this together.
Speaker 2: It comes across. When I've witnessed it. It's the most
Speaker 2: beautiful thing. I could only ever dreamed that when RATHER
Speaker 2: and I are able to do that, that you know
Speaker 2: that we you will have what you have. It's really special.
Speaker 2: It's remarkable to watch in practice. And I mean that,
Speaker 2: you know, the message says it all, But Jedda, I
Speaker 2: wanted you know I throughout this book and even in
Speaker 2: this interview today. I think I was going to save
Speaker 2: this to say it later, but I'm going to say now.
Speaker 2: I've been sharing spirituality with people in different ways since
Speaker 2: I was eighteen years old, and I was so young
Speaker 2: and immature then in my spirituality, and I still am
Speaker 2: today and that will always continue. And I've just been
Speaker 2: fortunate to sit at the feet of incredible teachers and mentors,
Speaker 2: and so any realization I've had earlier than I should
Speaker 2: have had, it is because of sitting with elders, and
Speaker 2: you know, sitting with the teachers I've introduced you to.
Speaker 2: And I've rarely met someone who's as eager for healing
Speaker 2: as you. I don't think I've met a family that's more.
Speaker 2: We're healing is the top priority, right And it's such
Speaker 2: an interesting thing to perceive in someone because you can
Speaker 2: tell by someone's language and when their eyes light up
Speaker 2: and their body language changes as to what they are
Speaker 2: motivated by. And ever since I met you, from the
Speaker 2: first day we met backstage green room for Red Table
Speaker 2: Thought Series two launch day event, I was getting to
Speaker 2: host and interview you, Dan and Willow, and I remember
Speaker 2: you'd ask me like, what did you learn as a monk?
Speaker 2: And I'd said to you, I was. I was giving
Speaker 2: to you the what I did learn as practices, but
Speaker 2: I wasn't getting to the root of it. So I
Speaker 2: was explaining the practices like gratitude and meditation and mindfulness
Speaker 2: and service, and were you were kind of just like, oh,
Speaker 2: that's cool, like you know it was. And then I'd
Speaker 2: said to you because I felt a inner voice say
Speaker 2: that I should, and it was truly guided from within,
Speaker 2: And I said to you, I learned how to love God,
Speaker 2: And that was potentially the first time I'd even said
Speaker 2: that in that way to someone. And you, just like
Speaker 2: your whole body language and your eyes and everything just changed,
Speaker 2: and everyone else was late. So we were just talking
Speaker 2: and you were like, I want to learn how to
Speaker 2: love God too. And you'd obviously already been on that
Speaker 2: journey for decades, like you know, and you talk about
Speaker 2: in the book where you started with the Ethical Society, right,
Speaker 2: you know, that had been a journey that had been
Speaker 2: a part of your journey forever. But it was so
Speaker 2: interesting to me to meet someone and an entire family
Speaker 2: who is more focused on healing and growth and and
Speaker 2: God in their own way, in your in your own language,
Speaker 2: and your own in your own ways, than than anything else.
Speaker 2: I've never we've never had a conversation that steers too
Speaker 2: far away from any of those things, which which says so,
Speaker 2: and we have fun and we have a good time
Speaker 2: and everything, but that and the reason I raised that
Speaker 2: is because I also saw that when you were talking
Speaker 2: about Oscar's night in the book, you referred to as
Speaker 2: the holy slab and the holy joke, And you've always
Speaker 2: looked at everything through the lens of how is this
Speaker 2: bringing me closer to the divine? I remember one conversation
Speaker 2: we had about the femine in divine, and I'll never
Speaker 2: forget it. Because we at this point we'd been doing
Speaker 2: we've been talking twice a week for like a year
Speaker 2: and a half or something, and we were talking about
Speaker 2: a specific aspect of the divine feminine, which is often
Speaker 2: left out or forgotten or hidden. I had never seen
Speaker 2: anyone respond in a way so sincerely and genuinely to
Speaker 2: a vision of God as you did, and you said,
Speaker 2: with tears in your eyes, You're like, I've been looking
Speaker 2: for this God for twenty five years. And I remember
Speaker 2: just going like I could just see the genuineness and
Speaker 2: the sincerity in your eyes, and I was just like, wow,
Speaker 2: like I hope I can love like that one day,
Speaker 2: Like that's actually what I felt like, as it was
Speaker 2: so inspiring. And I know that I've got closer to
Speaker 2: Divinity through our work, and that's because of your seeking.
Speaker 2: And you've pulled me closer to the divine through your seeking,
Speaker 2: which you've given me the greatest gift, like for years
Speaker 2: and years and years ever since I've known you, and
Speaker 2: it's your ability to look for that. And so I
Speaker 2: wanted to talk to you about you know, I think
Speaker 2: when it all went down on Oscar's Night and you
Speaker 2: talk about this in the book and so I want
Speaker 2: to leave everyone to read about it in full. But
Speaker 2: the perception was that you were so offended that you'd
Speaker 2: kind of urge this action, which is bizarre in and
Speaker 2: of itself for so many reasons that you lay out
Speaker 2: in the book. But I want to hear from you, like,
Speaker 2: what were you actually hurt by about the condition that
Speaker 2: you were going through? And in that gap between what
Speaker 2: we saw and what we didn't get to see, which
Speaker 2: everyone had their own theory on what was actually your
Speaker 2: thought space, where were you?
Speaker 1: Let me start with that was a really layered moment.
Speaker 1: Let me start with also that there was so much
Speaker 1: that people didn't know in regards to what was happening
Speaker 1: with Will and I at that time. And I will
Speaker 1: leave for people to get the book because there's so
Speaker 1: much history and in present. Yeah, break it down, break
Speaker 1: it down, and I did exactly. It's so much history
Speaker 1: that I think would give people a lot more context
Speaker 1: to understand that moment. Let me also say that I
Speaker 1: know there was a difficult moment to watch because of
Speaker 1: history that Chris and I had in regards to the
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen Oscar so White. And I'll let people read
Speaker 1: to get up to speed. On that. But when I
Speaker 1: first saw Chris's name come on stage, come up as
Speaker 1: one of the presenters, I said, oh boy. I looked
Speaker 1: to Will and I was like, he's not gonna be
Speaker 1: able to help himself. This is going to be something.
Speaker 1: I was like, I knew, I already knew, and I
Speaker 1: was like, okay, so Will have been going back and
Speaker 1: forth backstage all night. So when Chris said what he said,
Speaker 1: I looked to Will as if to say, see, I
Speaker 1: knew it, right, And then I was like, oh boy,
Speaker 1: that's not cool to like talk about a medical condition
Speaker 1: that people there's nothing you can like, it's not something
Speaker 1: that can be cured, right, And that how many stories
Speaker 1: I had heard of people, you know, young people committing
Speaker 1: suicide and the shame and just how many people suffer
Speaker 1: and you don't even know. Like once I had the
Speaker 1: condition and I saw how many people around me had,
Speaker 1: I was like, all these years I didn't know, and
Speaker 1: people expressed the shame, the level of shame they had
Speaker 1: around it. I'm gonna be okay as far as my condition.
Speaker 1: And as you can see, my hair is growing back.
Speaker 1: That's what it does. It'll grow, it'll fall out, it'll
Speaker 1: grow back, again, pieces of my eyebrows will fall out,
Speaker 1: grow back. You know, I'm having a good moment right now.
Speaker 1: My alopecia is not as extreme as most people who
Speaker 1: are dealing with that condition, and I just felt like,
Speaker 1: that's not okay. So I wasn't upset about me, and
Speaker 1: I don't remember actually rolling my eyes. I think what
Speaker 1: people saw was me looking at will going I told
Speaker 1: you I knew he was going to do that, and
Speaker 1: oh boy, here we go again. Yeah, you know, oh
Speaker 1: here we go. But I wasn't upset about me. It
Speaker 1: really wasn't. It wasn't about me. It was just all
Speaker 1: the stories I had heard and that I continue to
Speaker 1: hear about people who have suffered from this condition.
Speaker 2: And obviously you didn't want what happened to happen. Like
Speaker 2: I think that was just clarifying. I know, I'm just
Speaker 2: clarifying it.
Speaker 1: Of course, it wasn't like I looked at Willison, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. And that's the kind you know, those
Speaker 2: are the kind of moments of context. Yeah, I lost sometimes.
Speaker 1: Listen, there was an aspect of that that I was
Speaker 1: as shocked as anyone, because will and I hadn't been
Speaker 1: referring to each other as husband and wife since twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1: I was like, wife of me, that's right, Yeah, I'm okay,
Speaker 1: that's right, I am your wife, and that kicked in.
Speaker 1: I'm like, yep, here we are in that moment that
Speaker 1: that did happen. I was like, we came together, We're
Speaker 1: leaving together. You know that part of me that put
Speaker 1: everything else aside and was like, this is going to
Speaker 1: be something I need to make sure Will's okay, We're
Speaker 1: going to get through this. I had no idea that
Speaker 1: that was none whatsoever, and I came as family. I
Speaker 1: actually didn't go to the oscars as Will's wife, and
Speaker 1: I know for people that's weird, But what was going
Speaker 1: on behind the scenes, Will and I had been said
Speaker 1: like we weren't living as husband and wife since twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1: I was happy he asked me to go. I was
Speaker 1: happy he wanted to share that moment with me still
Speaker 1: and I was going to be by his side. And
Speaker 1: I think also people weren't really aware of the journey
Speaker 1: that had taken place after emancipation. As far as Will's concern,
Speaker 1: it was a really difficult movie, and afterwards he decided
Speaker 1: to get into therapeutic settings and he asked me to
Speaker 1: join him because a lot of stuff was coming up,
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff from his past, childhood stuff. I
Speaker 1: think people didn't understand that there was a history there
Speaker 1: between he and Chris as well, So there was a
Speaker 1: lot of contexts that people just didn't have. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you something else. I understand why
Speaker 1: people thought it was me. I understand why people blame me.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's right, but I understand, you know,
Speaker 1: considering the narratives that were out there that I was
Speaker 1: part of. I have to take responsibility for that. And
Speaker 1: I talk about that in the book. You know, me
Speaker 1: being the adulterous wife that had, you know, push Will
Speaker 1: to his limit. I get it. So I couldn't even
Speaker 1: take any of it personally. And I had to put
Speaker 1: myself in the shoes of the audience and go, if
Speaker 1: I was looking at this, what would I say? I
Speaker 1: probably would have said the same thing. And then that
Speaker 1: made me really look at like, oh man, Like, culturally
Speaker 1: we're always blaming women, Like I had to really go
Speaker 1: deep into that, why do we do that? You know
Speaker 1: that none of power that have so much of their
Speaker 1: ownness in their life, but when something bad happens. It's
Speaker 1: a woman's fault, you know what I mean. It's so interesting,
Speaker 1: you know, and I had I really started to examine that,
Speaker 1: but more so just looking at that narrative and taking responsibility.
Speaker 2: And at the same time there was love and compassion
Speaker 2: for Chris. There was that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you know. I talk about that in the book.
Speaker 1: I've worked with Chris. I know Chris am I always
Speaker 1: a fan of Chris's stage work, No, but Chris as
Speaker 1: a person, he's a sweet guy. There was a moment
Speaker 1: when Chris came down to the end of the stage
Speaker 1: and you have to understand, I'm in deep confusion. I
Speaker 1: don't know what's going on because of me understanding the
Speaker 1: context of Will and I behind the scenes, what just
Speaker 1: happened on the stage. I'm worried about Will. I've never
Speaker 1: seen that from him. I don't know what's going on.
Speaker 1: But Chris comes to the end of the stage and
Speaker 1: he looks at me deeply sincerely, and he says, Jada,
Speaker 1: I meant no harm, and it was so sincere in
Speaker 1: his eyes. I'm like, that's the Chris I know. That's
Speaker 1: the Chris I've experienced. That's the Chris that a lot
Speaker 1: of people don't get to see because people just see
Speaker 1: Chris on stage doing what Chris does. But I'm glad
Speaker 1: I had that moment because with everything else that transpired afterwards,
Speaker 1: you know, his Netflix, certain comments and all of that,
Speaker 1: I could hold on to that sincere moment. So when
Speaker 1: we talk about looking past personality, when somebody has had
Speaker 1: that opportunity to show you their heart, to show you
Speaker 1: their spirit, that's the truth, not all the other stuff
Speaker 1: that hurt, misunderstanding, confusion might bring up. So where my
Speaker 1: feelings hurt when I heard what was happening as far
Speaker 1: as the Netflix, of course my feelings were hurt, but
Speaker 1: I didn't take it personally because I remember I can
Speaker 1: see his eyes right now as I'm talking to you,
Speaker 1: and that's the truth of Chris's spirit, Jada, I meant
Speaker 1: no harm. I talk about it in the book. It's like,
Speaker 1: you gotta have grace when we're hurt. I'm not saying
Speaker 1: that I agree with how it was handled. I don't
Speaker 1: agree with it, but I understand. And so my hope
Speaker 1: is that there will be there's such a beautiful opportunity
Speaker 1: for healing, and my hope is that that will occur.
Speaker 1: It's time. Everything needs time. You have two beautiful men
Speaker 1: who have hurts and who have hurt one another, but
Speaker 1: they're both beautiful men. And as I said before, my
Speaker 1: hope is that these two very capable, beautiful men at
Speaker 1: some time figure out how to resolve this whole thing
Speaker 1: of the present and of the past, you know, because
Speaker 1: life is about healing.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 1: It's like life's too short. And you know, sometimes conflicts
Speaker 1: can really amplify love. They really can. I know it
Speaker 1: has for me. And that's why I called that chapter
Speaker 1: the Holy Slap, the Holy Joke, the Holy Slap, and
Speaker 1: the Holy Lessons because through all of this conflict that
Speaker 1: I've been in the midst of all this misunderstanding that
Speaker 1: I've been in the midst of, it's helped amplify love
Speaker 1: within my heart. It's made my heart more elastic hate,
Speaker 1: and I really have been able to understand how hate
Speaker 1: has a ceiling. You know, hate aggression, well, you know
Speaker 1: it has a ceiling, whereas love is oh wow, but
Speaker 1: it takes so much courage, and it's so easy to
Speaker 1: go into aggression. It's so easy to go into you know,
Speaker 1: hateful feelings. It's easy. And I can't blame anybody for
Speaker 1: doing it, and I have no judgment because guess what
Speaker 1: been there done that?
Speaker 2: You know, Joda, when you started today, you said that
Speaker 2: you know, this is your journey from being unlovable to
Speaker 2: trying to find love again. And it's really it's really
Speaker 2: the true story of all of our lives, of just
Speaker 2: we're all on that journey of being unlovable, thinking that
Speaker 2: if someone loves us, we'll be fine. Then thinking that
Speaker 2: if we get or achieve this will be fine. Then
Speaker 2: they if I love this person perfectly, then I'll be fine.
Speaker 2: And it's that we keep filling in that the sentence
Speaker 2: between unlovable with too lovable, with so many versions. And
Speaker 2: I think what this book, this memoir does so beautifully, honestly,
Speaker 2: is you show us every version that you tried to
Speaker 2: fit in.
Speaker 1: That gap, right, every version.
Speaker 2: Every version that you to fit in that gap. You're
Speaker 2: just showing us the reality of what that comes with,
Speaker 2: like the pain that comes with trying to fit everything
Speaker 2: into that gap. And I appreciate you for doing that
Speaker 2: because it's it's hard to not turn every story into
Speaker 2: a fairy tale ending, yeah, perfect ending, and there isn't
Speaker 2: that here, And I think that that's what truly makes
Speaker 2: it relatable. It's what truly makes it applicable wherever we
Speaker 2: are on our journeys on that spectrum and anyone else's.
Speaker 2: And it's why I said that I really hope that
Speaker 2: anyone is on that journey themselves, we'll pick this book
Speaker 2: up and be able to notice which gap they're trying
Speaker 2: to fill it with, Yeah, and come back in if
Speaker 2: that sounds if that feels right.
Speaker 1: That's really right. It's like because you're right, it's like
Speaker 1: all these it's like, Okay, that didn't work, let me
Speaker 1: go over here, let me try this, and then it
Speaker 1: just nope. You got to you got to heal you,
Speaker 1: and you got to really get with a power higher
Speaker 1: than yourself. And I want to thank you for really
Speaker 1: being so helpful in so many ways, Jay, in regards
Speaker 1: to you talk about I mean, we've been on such
Speaker 1: a beautiful journey together in that way of just learning
Speaker 1: and deepening our relationship with God individually together. I so
Speaker 1: appreciate you for that. I mean, you have been so
Speaker 1: interestrument that way.
Speaker 2: I genuinely can't take any credit, like I'm not even,
Speaker 2: I'm not even and that's not even me, that's not
Speaker 2: me being umble and modest. It's it's me just saying
Speaker 2: that in the same way as you feel people came
Speaker 2: into your life to you know, accelerate their journey and
Speaker 2: reconnect you like you did the same for me and
Speaker 2: Radhi like a in a physical way. You all of
Speaker 2: you have given us so much family, We've celebrated so
Speaker 2: many thanksgivings. Yeah, we've had you over for sunga every
Speaker 2: you know, for days and days and weeks and months
Speaker 2: and years, and you know you've given us so much.
Speaker 2: And I don't I think that's what I think this
Speaker 2: book does. I think that's what we'll do for our friendships,
Speaker 2: is that I got the opportunity to build a friendship
Speaker 2: with you that was based on nothing else but healing,
Speaker 2: growth and the divine and that kind of relationship just
Speaker 2: has a different energy. It's really special when there's nothing else,
Speaker 2: there's nothing else that would have made our paths cross.
Speaker 2: We don't work together, we don't have we don't do
Speaker 2: business together, we don't have the same friends like you know.
Speaker 1: But but but this right.
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful to watch someone do the hardest work
Speaker 2: and I'm going, yeah, I need to do it too,
Speaker 2: Like and I admire it because I see it from
Speaker 2: that perspective with you, and I always have that You're
Speaker 2: not trying to take the easy way out. You're not
Speaker 2: You're not just looking to fix it with a band aid.
Speaker 2: You're not just hoping it will go away. You're like, no,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna sit there with it. That is just I
Speaker 2: just that is such an uncomfortable place naturally for ninety
Speaker 2: nine percent of people. Yeah, I'm in all of you
Speaker 2: because of it, and I always will be. And I'm
Speaker 2: just I'm I'm so happy that you decided to put
Speaker 2: it into writing because this isn't about clarifying. It isn't
Speaker 2: about people getting a sense of what really happened. That's
Speaker 2: not what it's about. It's about how can we sit
Speaker 2: through that discomfort that we're going through in our life
Speaker 2: and choose healing and growth even when it's the hardest
Speaker 2: thing and the farthest thing away from us.
Speaker 1: Listen, if things get cleared up from reading this book, great,
Speaker 1: but that's not the purpose, because I actually don't think
Speaker 1: you can.
Speaker 2: You can't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't. It'll just be more stirring up whatever
Speaker 1: other things right, And it's really which is why it's
Speaker 1: even more important to really be able to have a
Speaker 1: strong sense of self right, and not to be looking
Speaker 1: for external things to be to substitute what you have
Speaker 1: to have inside in order to know your place in
Speaker 1: this world. This place is crazy. And to try to
Speaker 1: make the material space, the material world a line in
Speaker 1: a way for your comfort. That's it can't start there.
Speaker 1: It has to start within yourself. That how you see
Speaker 1: and what you attract you is in alignment with what
Speaker 1: is happening here, right, But looking for the world to
Speaker 1: buoy you up or accept you in a certain manner. Nah,
Speaker 1: Like I said before this, can you just give some
Speaker 1: little bread crumbs to help people get to a sense
Speaker 1: of self worth that gives them that comfort no matter
Speaker 1: what is happening. You know, if you've brought freaking chocolate
Speaker 1: chip cookies with peanuts in them to the school fair
Speaker 1: even though kids might have allergies in the school that
Speaker 1: wrote you a letter and said don't bring products with peanuts,
Speaker 1: and yeah, right, you made them with love. And now
Speaker 1: the mom group is on your neck. You can be okay.
Speaker 1: You can be okay with your victories, and you can
Speaker 1: be okay with the inevitable challenges that life is going
Speaker 1: to deliver. It's okay either way. You're okay, You're worthy,
Speaker 1: you're lovable, peanuts and all.
Speaker 2: So, Jada, one of the things that you mentioned was
Speaker 2: that you went to the Oscars as family, but not
Speaker 2: as a wife. Yeah, and I wanted to ask you,
Speaker 2: how do you define the status of your relationship now and.
Speaker 1: What is it like, you know right now? Of course,
Speaker 1: we've had it's been an intense two years and we've
Speaker 1: really been doing some deep healing together. And that's why
Speaker 1: I was saying before, the idea of how just really
Speaker 1: disruptive situations can amplify love in a certain manner because
Speaker 1: it kind of forces you to have to dive a
Speaker 1: little deeper. That's what we've been doing. We've just been
Speaker 1: growing together and see what happens, then see what grows
Speaker 1: from there.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: But like I said in the book, it's like we
Speaker 1: have this beautiful friendship and we really look at our
Speaker 1: marriage as being the cornerstone of family. We're both kind
Speaker 1: of coming up with different definitions of what marriage means
Speaker 1: for us. We're still figuring all of that out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but the beautiful part is that there's been some really
Speaker 1: deep healing going on. Yeah, I mean you know that.
Speaker 1: I mean, at the end of the day, that's what
Speaker 1: it's about. Marriage is so much about growth, like really
Speaker 1: learn how to grow emotionally, like emotional maturity, spiritual maturity,
Speaker 1: and there's this spiritual bond there. I mean, we've tried
Speaker 1: our best to get away from each other. I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean our best, and we just don't want to.
Speaker 1: So we are defining it the way that works for us,
Speaker 1: and I think getting comfortable with not being concerned about
Speaker 1: what anybody else thinks about it. We have this life
Speaker 1: partnership and every day we're trying to figure out what
Speaker 1: that means.
Speaker 2: You've both talked about how you feel like you're a
Speaker 2: mirror for each other. Yeah, and when I've spoken to
Speaker 2: Will as well, it's like he feels like you're the
Speaker 2: person who knows him to his call.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, he know you to your care.
Speaker 2: Like you know everything. Yeah, that potentially there is to
Speaker 2: know about each other, and you're obviously still learning.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: What's really interesting about that is some people would say, well,
Speaker 2: why not just get divorced.
Speaker 1: Yeah, everybody's always like, why don't you just get divorced?
Speaker 1: And it's like, hmm, that's like quitting I don't think
Speaker 1: there's any person that could embrace the best and the
Speaker 1: worst of me and be able be willing to hold
Speaker 1: space in the way that will hold space for me
Speaker 1: and the way that I hold space for him. And
Speaker 1: I know that most people probably go into their relationship
Speaker 1: as like you were here to please me, and yeah,
Speaker 1: our relationship isn't quite.
Speaker 2: That, you know.
Speaker 1: It's like it's more about there's no greater mirror I
Speaker 1: could have than will he doesn't. I can't get around
Speaker 1: myself just like he can't get around himself with me.
Speaker 1: And I think that that's just been what this has
Speaker 1: been all about, Like it's been a deep clearing, like
Speaker 1: really having to look at yourself in ways in that
Speaker 1: mirror that Sure, we talk about this all the time.
Speaker 1: Would it be easier to go and find somebody else
Speaker 1: and have a more pleasing, more comfortable relationship, maybe, But
Speaker 1: would that get me to the person that I really
Speaker 1: want to be? I don't think so. And I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that everybody's relationship is supposed to be that. I'm
Speaker 1: not here to say that. I'm just saying that that's
Speaker 1: what my relationship is, that's something I desire to get.
Speaker 2: To a.
Speaker 1: Deeper part a more spiritually sound, emotionally sound and really
Speaker 1: understand love unconditionally. And the thing that I've learned about
Speaker 1: uncondition love, you can't really understand what unconditional love and
Speaker 1: ideal circumstances to really get to what it is to
Speaker 1: love yourself and someone else completely with all that's divine,
Speaker 1: all that's human, all that's perfect, and all that is
Speaker 1: deeply flawed, and have full acceptance for it. All I
Speaker 1: tell you this is you know, marriage is not for
Speaker 1: the faint at heart. It's just not. And it is
Speaker 1: definitely I believe, I believe. You know, different people get
Speaker 1: married for different reasons, so I'm not trying to say
Speaker 1: why anybody else should be married. But for me, the
Speaker 1: holy path of getting to a divine aspect of myself
Speaker 1: in partnership with Will, and it seems like Will wants
Speaker 1: the same for himself, and it's taken us, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, we got together it what. I was twenty three, okay,
Speaker 1: twenty three when I first decided to commit myself to
Speaker 1: Willard Carrol Smith, Lord Jesus, so young, so young. We
Speaker 1: were babies, babies trying to figure this out. And you
Speaker 1: know what's interesting about young relationships you create these young
Speaker 1: patterns that get so like these really young, immature patterns
Speaker 1: in yourself and how you relate to your partner, and
Speaker 1: then you create these dynamics between one another that it
Speaker 1: takes a while to like really be willing to look
Speaker 1: at that stuff and dissolve it and let it go
Speaker 1: immature and grow. It takes some real like self inventory, patience, courage, right,
Speaker 1: because you're breaking down everything, all your romantic ideas, everything
Speaker 1: you thought you know, relationship or marriage, all your romantic
Speaker 1: fantasies you know, just you know, blow up in flames.
Speaker 1: But it's really been freeing. It's really been freeing to
Speaker 1: see what's more true.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that I know the truth yet. I
Speaker 1: just feel like I'm seeing more of what's true, you know,
Speaker 1: as regards to what love and partnership is about. Because
Speaker 1: I was definitely one of those people that's like, you're
Speaker 1: here to make me happy, and when you don't do it,
Speaker 1: that's a problem.
Speaker 2: And that's a normal setup. That's how we believe relationships are.
Speaker 2: And you know, I've talked about it before and I
Speaker 2: put it forward in my book, this idea that we
Speaker 2: think pleasure is the ultimate gift of a relationship. But
Speaker 2: really purification is and that's a really tough idea for anyone,
Speaker 2: including me. I haven't perfected that idea for me to
Speaker 2: wrap my head around. And I can honestly say that
Speaker 2: I love Radi and you know you've seen us both
Speaker 2: together and everything. But the greatest gift Radi gives me
Speaker 2: is a mirror and a purification of Rady can call
Speaker 2: out my ego better than anyone or anything, and I
Speaker 2: know it's coming from a good place. Radi can show
Speaker 2: me my flaws in the nicest, most supportive way possible
Speaker 2: and can receive it back from me. And then I
Speaker 2: feel like because of her, I'm trying to be better,
Speaker 2: getting better, not.
Speaker 1: For her, for myself.
Speaker 2: It's almost like the person that you live with knows
Speaker 2: you so deeply, or the person that you've seen has
Speaker 2: seen you in all circumstances, in all situations, knows you
Speaker 2: the deepest. I always say, Roddy knows whether I woke
Speaker 2: up in meditated in the morning. Yeah, Like Radley knows
Speaker 2: whether I got angry or frustrated at night after a
Speaker 2: phone call. Like Radley knows that. And if I use
Speaker 2: that to my advantage of am I becoming? Am I growing?
Speaker 2: But it's such a hard concept for people to understand
Speaker 2: because it's so counterintuitive to the pleasure seeking mind that
Speaker 2: we've been conditioned to chase. And again, I'm not saying
Speaker 2: we shouldn't have a pleasure in relationship. That's not the
Speaker 2: point I'm making. I'm just saying that there's more to it,
Speaker 2: There's another level.
Speaker 1: There's definitely more to it. And I think we've talked
Speaker 1: about this before, you and I as far as people
Speaker 1: believing that romantic love is the highest form. Now, I
Speaker 1: believe that romantic love is an aspect right of a
Speaker 1: higher form, But I don't believe that romantic self romantic
Speaker 1: love itself is the highest form right. I believe within
Speaker 1: the highest form you can have romantic love, but that
Speaker 1: romantic love is not of the highest right. And that's
Speaker 1: all I've been examining and exploring with Will and really
Speaker 1: trying to understand the power of unconditional love, friendship, Like
Speaker 1: there's something about friendship, familial love that is beautiful. But
Speaker 1: when two people can have an agreement around divine love,
Speaker 1: like love of a source greater than yourself that you
Speaker 1: want to be connected to, and then you decide that
Speaker 1: your relationship is going to be connected to that same source.
Speaker 1: Oh boy, now we're on to something. Now we're onto something.
Speaker 1: But to think that romantic love can hold all of
Speaker 1: the difficulties and challenges alone, And I think that's why
Speaker 1: so many of us get into these power struggles. And
Speaker 1: while there's so many divorces and why they're you know,
Speaker 1: just all of this strife and relationships, you brought up
Speaker 1: something that was really important and it's the idea of
Speaker 1: Roddy when she can kind of pull your coattails with love.
Speaker 1: And I think that's it takes a lot of work
Speaker 1: to figure that out, like to not be offended when
Speaker 1: someone shows up imperfectly, and that those are those kind
Speaker 1: of pieces within relationship, Like we feel like people are
Speaker 1: supposed to come ready made. You walk down the aisland,
Speaker 1: it's like he knows how to love me, you know,
Speaker 1: I know how to love him, you know, and not
Speaker 1: making room for that space of growth that is inevitable.
Speaker 1: People are going to mess up, People are going to
Speaker 1: do stupid stuff, People are gonna say stupid stuff. Now,
Speaker 1: when it comes to abuse and all of that, that's
Speaker 1: a different story, right, But people who are willing to
Speaker 1: learn how to love each other, because I really do
Speaker 1: think that's what committed relationships, about marriage or not. I'm
Speaker 1: committed to learning how to love myself, learning how to
Speaker 1: love you right, and then learning how to cultivate this
Speaker 1: relationship that we have with that essence, with those components.
Speaker 1: Then that's a beautiful thing. That's what I believe the
Speaker 1: holy path of relating is all about. And not everybody
Speaker 1: wants that totally. You know, some people really just want
Speaker 1: the romantic version of it, and.
Speaker 2: That's okay too, Absolutely, that's.
Speaker 1: Okay too, you know. But for me definitely on that
Speaker 1: path of looking for something deeper within myself mostly, Yeah.
Speaker 2: How did you let go of that desire for romantic
Speaker 2: love but then hold onto the friendship? Because I feel
Speaker 2: like that's a journey that is so hard, whether someone
Speaker 2: stays married or gets divorced or like you both are
Speaker 2: you described yourself as best friends. How did you hold
Speaker 2: onto friendship being able to let go of the mirage
Speaker 2: that you had earlier, or even not even the mirage
Speaker 2: the reality of what you had earlier, as you talk
Speaker 2: about in the book, you know, the chemistry, the spark.
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, so many of us are trying to
Speaker 2: hold onto that, but you've let go of that, And
Speaker 2: then you're saying, but we've held on to the friendship,
Speaker 2: the mirror, the work, the growth. That sounds like the
Speaker 2: hard way through it.
Speaker 1: I think it's how people show up, and people don't
Speaker 1: always show up perfect clearly. But one thing about Will
Speaker 1: and I, we're just not willing to give up. It's like,
Speaker 1: I'm lucky that we just want to have each other
Speaker 1: in one another's life. Right, you have moments of disharmony,
Speaker 1: but if you know that you're not willing to not
Speaker 1: have that person in your life, you know you got
Speaker 1: to put forth the effort and you got to put
Speaker 1: forth the work to transform whatever's not working. So we
Speaker 1: always make the decision to take that one step closer
Speaker 1: to diving more deeply to learning how to love. And
Speaker 1: most of the time it has more to do with
Speaker 1: self inventory, having to go on the corner and look
Speaker 1: at oneself and then come back and go, I was tripping,
Speaker 1: whether it's I'm sorry or I had a misunderstanding. Can
Speaker 1: we look at this now together, Because now I've looked
Speaker 1: at it in my corner alone, and I've seen my part,
Speaker 1: and I want to talk to you first about my
Speaker 1: part ABC and D right, and then inevitably usually your
Speaker 1: partner go, well, you know, I could have done such
Speaker 1: and such a such, and so when you have an
Speaker 1: agreement that's really unspoken of, like I want you in
Speaker 1: my life and I want to have good times with
Speaker 1: you and I love you, then that's the energy that
Speaker 1: nurtures and keeps one willing to just keep working at it.
Speaker 1: So there's that deep love. And the great thing is
Speaker 1: that Will's got a great sense of humor, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. He's got a really good sense of humor.
Speaker 1: So he has a way of being able to help
Speaker 1: me get out of my funk. But I'm kind of
Speaker 1: like you talk about this a lot with Roddy, where
Speaker 1: I kind of have to take my time, Like I'm
Speaker 1: not always ready to talk right away. I need to
Speaker 1: like sit, I need to be with myself, I need
Speaker 1: to kind of like work through my thoughts and all
Speaker 1: of that. Where Will is always ready to talk. I
Speaker 1: like to go deep. He likes to get funny. The
Speaker 1: great thing about him, he can go deep. And there
Speaker 1: are times that I really like to play and have fun.
Speaker 1: So we're like these energetic fields, you know, I'm Earth
Speaker 1: and he's Sky. You know, we are your typical Yin
Speaker 1: and yang. You know that. You know, there's this great
Speaker 1: chemistry there between us that just works. And but when
Speaker 1: it doesn't work, oh man, oh man, oh man. You
Speaker 1: know what I mean those moments, but it's just like, ah,
Speaker 1: but I think that's just inevitable in every relationship.
Speaker 2: You know, But it just doesn't look traditional. I think
Speaker 2: that's the point. That's that's the part where it's like,
Speaker 2: it just doesn't look traditional. It well, yes, there's the trust,
Speaker 2: there's commitments. Yeah, there's understanding, and at the same time,
Speaker 2: it doesn't look.
Speaker 1: It doesn't look traditional. I don't know, I'm being honest
Speaker 1: with you. There are aspects of traditional relating that absolutely work.
Speaker 1: But I think in this day and age, I don't
Speaker 1: know too many marriages that are traditional. I really don't.
Speaker 1: Everybody is trying to figure it out, right, and I
Speaker 1: think everybody's so scared to talk about all of the
Speaker 1: different ways that they're trying to figure it out. I
Speaker 1: know so many people who are like married but not
Speaker 1: living together, married but have decided to have other partners.
Speaker 1: I know so many people and have for a long
Speaker 1: time that are trying marriage in so many different forms,
Speaker 1: and my whole thing is figure it out for you.
Speaker 1: Marriage is not a cookie cut out like formula. Besides,
Speaker 1: I do think that there's some staples you know, love,
Speaker 1: but he did not let me take that out for
Speaker 1: a second. There's some people who are married strictly for
Speaker 1: business purposes. I've seen that too. As long as there's
Speaker 1: agreement between two people and how they decide they want
Speaker 1: to be together, stay out of it. It has nothing
Speaker 1: to do. I tell people all the time, don't look
Speaker 1: at my marriage as being contagious. Whatever I'm doing doesn't
Speaker 1: mean you got to be doing that. You got to
Speaker 1: be doing the thing that works for you. And I
Speaker 1: feel like every partnership two people have the right to
Speaker 1: figure that out for them.
Speaker 2: And it's so different in norms, in different cultures and
Speaker 2: different backgrounds. I mean, like for me and Radi, we
Speaker 2: spend a lot of time apart because she likes to
Speaker 2: be back with her family in London and I travel
Speaker 2: for work, and so we discovered and agreed very early
Speaker 2: on in our relationship that when I work, she would
Speaker 2: often visit her family back in London and she loves
Speaker 2: it and she wants to be with her mom and
Speaker 2: dad and her niece and nephew and her sister and
Speaker 2: brother in law and everyone. And I love my purpose
Speaker 2: and I want to be traveling. I want to be working,
Speaker 2: I want to be moving. And I remember so many
Speaker 2: times in our relationship people be like, is everything okay? Yeah,
Speaker 2: And then we go back to London, people be like,
Speaker 2: why's your wife not with you? Or people like why
Speaker 2: jin not with you? And everyone starts thinking that there
Speaker 2: may be something going on, and it's actually, well, no,
Speaker 2: this was our agreement. This is something we've sat and
Speaker 2: talked about and figured things out, and actually we love
Speaker 2: distance because we get excited to see each other again.
Speaker 2: It's refreshing. It works for us, and again it may
Speaker 2: not work for anyone else. Someone may say I need
Speaker 2: my partner by my set every day fair enough, and
Speaker 2: someone may say I want to travel more than you
Speaker 2: do or less. But we just found that having honest
Speaker 2: conversations between us and knowing why we were making certain
Speaker 2: decisions even though they were abnormal to our community, the
Speaker 2: community that we grew up in, where the way we
Speaker 2: live is very abnormal, even though it's just about time apart.
Speaker 2: The point was we had an agreement that worked for us,
Speaker 2: and I think getting to know you both, I can
Speaker 2: honestly say that I feel like you guys are both
Speaker 2: always honest and communicative with each other on what your
Speaker 2: agreements are.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and that's what we.
Speaker 2: Have been discussing today as well, that there's always been
Speaker 2: that that openness to do that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well, I talk about it a lot in
Speaker 1: the book, and I think that a lot of people
Speaker 1: had a lot of misunderstanding as we talked about earlier.
Speaker 1: I believe in regards to open relationship and being able
Speaker 1: to be with whoever you want. Now, that's not what
Speaker 1: was happening. And I think a lot of times that
Speaker 1: people just didn't know that we had agreed to not
Speaker 1: be together. As we were trying to figure out are
Speaker 1: we going to be separated? Are we going to be divorced?
Speaker 1: Then we would reconcile, and then we would break up again,
Speaker 1: and there's all this back and forth between us that
Speaker 1: we didn't share with the world a lot, you know.
Speaker 1: And I think now people are just going to have
Speaker 1: to be okay with our marriage is not traditional in
Speaker 1: the sense of here we are married, but not you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, And you know, as I'm on
Speaker 1: my path and Will's figuring his thing out. We've decided
Speaker 1: to hold space for each other and as we're trying
Speaker 1: to figure out who we are. Will's lived a lot
Speaker 1: of his life for other people. I've definitely lived my
Speaker 1: life a lot for other people. And really having this
Speaker 1: time for me, I need this what I've been able
Speaker 1: to discover about myself in the last five years, six years,
Speaker 1: I think now I've needed this time to really concentrate
Speaker 1: on me and really developing like a relationship with myself.
Speaker 1: And I feel like the better relationship I have with myself,
Speaker 1: the better relationship I have with everyone else in my life,
Speaker 1: including Will, and so I talk about that a lot
Speaker 1: in the book. You know, just a lot of the
Speaker 1: misunderstandings that have occurred, rightfully so, because it's been a
Speaker 1: lot of mixed messaging, and then people are like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, you guys have been on the real card,
Speaker 1: you know, and all of that, We see you. We
Speaker 1: never knew there was a breakup you weren't supposed to
Speaker 1: that was between us, and at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: we're always family no matter what. So I think that
Speaker 1: the way we are deciding to be in a union
Speaker 1: people are just gonna have to get with that. It's
Speaker 1: probably not gonna look like what someone else is doing,
Speaker 1: and that's just the truth of the matter, you know,
Speaker 1: and we're.
Speaker 2: Good with that. I can definitely say that whatever relationship
Speaker 2: anyone is in that we all get to a point
Speaker 2: in our relationships, from mantic or otherwise where growing together
Speaker 2: becomes the greatest priority. It doesn't matter how.
Speaker 1: We are, how we got there, or what's happening.
Speaker 2: That. I think that is the key I was saying
Speaker 2: to that when I was writing my book A Rules
Speaker 2: of Love, it was like the journey I went on
Speaker 2: through writing it got me to that point of recognizing that, yes,
Speaker 2: the goal of every relationship in my life is simply
Speaker 2: to teach me something I have been unwilling to learn.
Speaker 2: And the people that I'm closest.
Speaker 1: To, come on, Jay, Yeah, the people.
Speaker 2: That I'm closest to are the only ones that can
Speaker 2: push me or pull me to seeing that whether it's
Speaker 2: your mom, whether it's your dad, or your sister, brother, partner,
Speaker 2: whatever it may be. And for me, I also discovered
Speaker 2: through the writing of the book that the greatest love
Speaker 2: story and I really really believe this. When I was
Speaker 2: writing it. I was like, the greatest love stories in
Speaker 2: the world are actually not romantic. The greatest love stories
Speaker 2: in the world are generally human sacrificing themselves in the
Speaker 2: service of others. Like you see people take on great
Speaker 2: sacrifice to help people that they may not even meet,
Speaker 2: or you see people like taking on a mission or
Speaker 2: a movement that hmm, positively affects so many people that
Speaker 2: they were never even connected to, Like those are the
Speaker 2: greatest acts of love, or the act of love that
Speaker 2: a parent has for their child that they extend themselves
Speaker 2: in express and that unconditionality. You don't really see romantic
Speaker 2: love being unconditional gender. It's interesting that trying to practice
Speaker 2: and understand what unconditional love is and figuring it out,
Speaker 2: which we all are, including me, But that journey was
Speaker 2: really powerful for me to recognize that the more unwilling
Speaker 2: I become and the more I hide from the lessons
Speaker 2: that I'm meant to learn, the harder it gets, and
Speaker 2: the harder the lesson gets and the test gets and
Speaker 2: it just gets bigger and worse.
Speaker 1: It gets bigger, and you know the truth of the
Speaker 1: matter is it's like I'm always going to be by
Speaker 1: will side you know when I think about, like if
Speaker 1: something ever happened to him, it's like, I'm gonna be
Speaker 1: right there if he needs me, I'm going to be
Speaker 1: right there always. That's just an unbreakable fact. That's the
Speaker 1: bond we have. You know, We've tried to break it
Speaker 1: in every which way you can think of. We don't
Speaker 1: want to be in this lifetime without one another. It's
Speaker 1: just not going to happen. So we're trying to figure
Speaker 1: out what that looks like for us. And there's something
Speaker 1: really powerful about that. I gotta be honest, as difficult
Speaker 1: as it's been, as there's been times that I've hated
Speaker 1: that fact having somebody that forces me to have to
Speaker 1: raise my consciousness, evolve my understanding of love, to deal
Speaker 1: with the fact of that bond that's a God given
Speaker 1: gift because me and God got to get with that.
Speaker 1: God has to be my mentor on how to love
Speaker 1: Will and myself and care for the relationship that we
Speaker 1: have through the eyes of the Great Supreme, not the
Speaker 1: way Jada wants it. And so that has been a
Speaker 1: beautiful surrender that I've really had to surrender because I
Speaker 1: really feel like it's about the decree God was like,
Speaker 1: oh no, in this lifetime, that's your person like it
Speaker 1: or not, I don't care. So it set me up
Speaker 1: to have to break certain ideas of my own personality
Speaker 1: and my own ego and really surrender to what the
Speaker 1: Great Supreme wants to teach me about love and about patience,
Speaker 1: and about care, kindness, considerationness of myself, forgiveness of others.
Speaker 1: It's deep, and I'm so grateful. It's been a painful journey,
Speaker 1: no doubt, but the gifts that I get on the
Speaker 1: other side of that discomfort, and when I get on
Speaker 1: the other side of the discomfort, I go, I get it.
Speaker 1: I could not have gotten that gift or that understanding
Speaker 1: without that trial you gave me. I just ask God
Speaker 1: these days, because you're making it a little easier, I
Speaker 1: think I'm getting the groove, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: just like, come on, you know. But I've also realized
Speaker 1: too that I'm getting to the point that when things
Speaker 1: tumultuous things come about, I smile and I go, Okay,
Speaker 1: you got a great one for me on the other
Speaker 1: side of this bad boy, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: You just start to realize it's never failed in that way.
Speaker 1: I remember asking Swammy. I said, do you think I
Speaker 1: should get divorced?
Speaker 2: Wow, I didn't know you asked him?
Speaker 1: Now, I sure did, I asked Swammy, and he said,
Speaker 1: you know, Jada, people take their vows very lightly these days.
Speaker 1: And he said something to the fact that, you know,
Speaker 1: when we stay committed to the vowels that we make,
Speaker 1: we find what we need. And I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: and I just stayed on track. I was just like,
Speaker 1: all right, let me, let me just keep digging, let
Speaker 1: me keep going. And he you know, he's right for
Speaker 1: my journey. I can't say for anybody else for my
Speaker 1: journey because he said, oh, this is what he said.
Speaker 1: He said, people end up as friends in the long run,
Speaker 1: and they're holding hands walking each other. And that's how
Speaker 1: I feel. I feel like Will and I are walking
Speaker 1: each other home as life partners.
Speaker 2: Well, Jada, I want to share one last thing with you,
Speaker 2: if I can so. Earlier, I had a letter for
Speaker 2: you from Willow Okay, and I also have a letter
Speaker 2: from Will. I may need your help with you. May
Speaker 2: have to reenact some words because I feel like you'll
Speaker 2: be able to channel Okay, Will better than me. I
Speaker 2: will not try and impersonate him. Because it won't go well.
Speaker 2: But this was for you, Jada. I think it was
Speaker 2: when we'll found out that you're coming on the show.
Speaker 2: And all right, I was happy that he was able
Speaker 2: to send this to me and so I could share
Speaker 2: it with you, and I'll just read it and let's
Speaker 2: let's do it in his words. Okay, so you'll have
Speaker 2: to explain this one for us, I know, but I
Speaker 2: want the audience ton So he said, congrats Dink.
Speaker 1: Okay, so let me just tell you what yeah, let
Speaker 1: me let me tell you what Dink means. He's so crazy.
Speaker 1: So when we play golf, he's my favorite person to
Speaker 1: play golf with. So when we play golf, when I
Speaker 1: hit my driver, it goes Dink. And so that's why
Speaker 1: he calls me Dick.
Speaker 2: Who's better at golf?
Speaker 1: He's definitely better. But I'm getting to a point where
Speaker 1: I can, you know, I can challenge him in a
Speaker 1: good way on a couple of holes, for sure.
Speaker 2: All Right, Okay, congrats Dink. I just turned the final
Speaker 2: page of Worthy, and damn, I'm going to get you
Speaker 2: to do the damn How would he say?
Speaker 1: Damn?
Speaker 2: I just turned the final page of Worthy and damn
Speaker 2: it is amazing to realize that, despite having lived most
Speaker 2: of my life by your side, I still found myself
Speaker 2: shocked and stunned and cought of God, laughing, then inspired,
Speaker 2: then heartbroken. I was all over the place. It's one
Speaker 2: thing to hear anecdotes at a family barbecue, but it
Speaker 2: was truly overwhelming to take in your story potently condensed
Speaker 2: in this way. You are one of one, a rare
Speaker 2: blend of power and delicate sensitivity. I know it wasn't
Speaker 2: easy to excavate the depths in that way. I applaud
Speaker 2: and honor you. If I had read this book thirty
Speaker 2: years ago, I definitely would have hugged you more. I'll
Speaker 2: start now. Welcome to the author's club. I love you endlessly.
Speaker 2: Now go get some merlo and take a rest.
Speaker 1: Hey, no, I can't. I have no more love. That's beautiful,
Speaker 1: and that's why I can't divorce that joker.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's one line that really hit me, and I
Speaker 2: want to hear obviously, how you felt that he said,
Speaker 2: If I had read this book thirty years ago, I
Speaker 2: definitely would have hugged you more. I'll start now, how
Speaker 2: did it feel listening to parts of that?
Speaker 1: You know, one of the things I talk about in
Speaker 1: the book A lot is perspective. When we got married,
Speaker 1: Will had to be twenty twenty nine. We had such
Speaker 1: different needs, no right or wrong. You know, Will was
Speaker 1: very driven. But I got married because I was pregnant
Speaker 1: and I wanted a fam And now I must say
Speaker 1: that was the one thing we both wanted to create
Speaker 1: a family. We never had, but what we thought took
Speaker 1: having a healthy family. Will believed, man, as long as
Speaker 1: I get out here, make money, get the biggest house,
Speaker 1: make sure you guys don't need anything. That's how you
Speaker 1: have a great family. And my thing was like, no
Speaker 1: but love and you know, me and you we got
Speaker 1: a da da da da. You know, everything was centered
Speaker 1: around feelings, love da da. We just couldn't find agreement
Speaker 1: because we thought we had two different goals around what
Speaker 1: it took. And so to hear him say that he
Speaker 1: would have hugged me more is me hearing him say
Speaker 1: he would have taken a bit more time to listen
Speaker 1: and understand. And that doesn't mean that he would have
Speaker 1: to be off his path, but just to take a
Speaker 1: little bit more time to listen and understand. And I
Speaker 1: think when we're young, because that was the same way.
Speaker 1: I mean, when we were young, you just think your
Speaker 1: way is the only way. And I think that where
Speaker 1: Will and I are getting to now is understanding that
Speaker 1: our ways. My way is just one way, his way
Speaker 1: is just one way. And then how do we listen
Speaker 1: to each other more to blend those ways. I was
Speaker 1: very careful.
Speaker 2: And not.
Speaker 1: Going into romanticized regret after hearing that line. I wish
Speaker 1: I could have hugged you more, but I will do
Speaker 1: so now right. I was like, no, no, no, you're
Speaker 1: not going to go into romanticized regret wo, because what
Speaker 1: I know as a fact is that every step, everything
Speaker 1: that is transpired between us has been absolutely perfect, all
Speaker 1: the beauty and all the ugly to get us to
Speaker 1: a place that we're coming to, you know, And you
Speaker 1: could you could go, oh, I wish that, you know,
Speaker 1: I had known this when I was younger. That's the
Speaker 1: whole point of youth, you don't know, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. And then to really just to be able
Speaker 1: to embrace like this time in my life and in
Speaker 1: his life and coming into newfound wisdom and enjoy that.
Speaker 1: But I'm so glad that getting closer to that blend
Speaker 1: between us and That's what I'm saying. It's like, who
Speaker 1: else am I going to grow with like that and
Speaker 1: be able to have those that deep cherished moment of
Speaker 1: like when you can look back at where you were
Speaker 1: thirty years ago and where we've traveled to get to
Speaker 1: this moment right here, right now, at this beautiful family.
Speaker 1: Without him, I went, I've had Jaden, Willow Trey, Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, there are no greater treasures than those three.
Speaker 1: And then all of the magnificent experiences he and I've
Speaker 1: had together, the great ones and the not so great ones,
Speaker 1: you know, but they're ours, part of our tapestry. One
Speaker 1: thing I talk about in the book going to see
Speaker 1: Ruby d when I needed some marital advice and she
Speaker 1: told me laugh now, because you're gonna laugh later, And
Speaker 1: it's so true. I didn't know what she was talking
Speaker 1: about then, but she'd been married at that time or
Speaker 1: fifty some years as Sie was gone, Ozzie Davis had
Speaker 1: passed on, you know, And one of the things she
Speaker 1: said to me, I said, what's one of your biggest regrets?
Speaker 1: And she said, I wish I had laughed with him more.
Speaker 1: And that never leaves my mind to just find ways
Speaker 1: to get through the bumpies, to get through the bumpy stuff,
Speaker 1: and let's get back to some laughter and some joy.
Speaker 2: This to you in any case you want to read
Speaker 2: it again, Yeah, And I want to thank you for
Speaker 2: you know, your vulnerability, your openness today and the vulnerability
Speaker 2: in the book that you shed so profoundly today. But
Speaker 2: the book you get to weave the tapestry together and
Speaker 2: the lessons and where they come in your life. And
Speaker 2: I really, I really believe that anyone who will read
Speaker 2: this book will gain access to a much deeper understanding
Speaker 2: of themselves as a mirror and also get an opportunity
Speaker 2: to reframe, rethin, renew ideas perspective thoughts about their own journey.
Speaker 1: That is all that I want. Like, we have so
Speaker 1: much fear around allowing people their journeys because we can
Speaker 1: tend to get hurt within them along the way, but
Speaker 1: it's inevitable. And the more that we can have acceptance
Speaker 1: for the reality that life is a journey, nobody is
Speaker 1: meant to be perfect. It baffles me. Well, actually, let
Speaker 1: me take that back. It doesn't baffle me because I've
Speaker 1: been there. It doesn't baffle me. I've been there where
Speaker 1: Just being afraid to allow what is to be. That
Speaker 1: is embracing our humanness and learning how to love each
Speaker 1: other through our humanness. All this cancel culture and all
Speaker 1: of this that is purely a rejection of aspects of
Speaker 1: ourselves and a rejection of humanness. And that's where unconditional
Speaker 1: love has its most power. Right. But if we can
Speaker 1: learn to do that with us, starting with ourselves, right,
Speaker 1: learning how to have unconditional love for ourselves and have
Speaker 1: acceptance for our journey. And that's what I want from
Speaker 1: this book. I'm just putting it out there like a
Speaker 1: this is what my journey looks like, and it ain't cute.
Speaker 1: This is what I've learned along the way, and this
Speaker 1: is how I learned how to gain self worth and
Speaker 1: to feel worthy about it. All about it, all about it,
Speaker 1: all Jay, every piece of it. And that's all I
Speaker 1: want for every anybody else. It's okay, it's okay. You
Speaker 1: don't have to come down on yourself. And just because
Speaker 1: we stumble and we might lose our way doesn't mean
Speaker 1: we're lost forever. Thank you Charles Xavier from x Men
Speaker 1: for that statement.
Speaker 2: I love that, friend.
Speaker 1: I do too. Charles laid it out just like that.
Speaker 1: I had to put that quone in my book, but
Speaker 1: it's true, and that's all I want for everybody. We
Speaker 1: are all worthy, embracing it all, every aspect of our journey.
Speaker 1: That is the thing that makes us worthy.
Speaker 2: We're harder on all this because we're so hard on ourselves.
Speaker 2: We're hard on ourselves because we're so hard on others,
Speaker 2: and that cycle keeps repeating itself. Point out someone's floor
Speaker 2: because we're pointing them out in ourselves, but not looking
Speaker 2: at the growth we're trying to make and the growth
Speaker 2: someone else trying to make, the healing journey that they're on,
Speaker 2: and the healing journey that we're on. And as you
Speaker 2: were just saying that, what came to my mind is
Speaker 2: that we all have to take the same steps, but
Speaker 2: on our own path. And I think what this book
Speaker 2: does so gracefully is show your steps, which reminds us
Speaker 2: all that even if we trip and we fall, which
Speaker 2: we inevitably will, there's still another step after that that
Speaker 2: we can take. And that ultimate step is what you
Speaker 2: just so beautifully put the step of recognizing that all
Speaker 2: of it was worthy, all of it was part of
Speaker 2: that journey towards self.
Speaker 1: Worth, and that you're loved. You're loved, and you're held
Speaker 1: no matter what through all of the scrutiny and through
Speaker 1: all of the I don't know stones that were thrown
Speaker 1: at me as painful as all of that was, what
Speaker 1: a beautiful gauntlet to get me to the understanding that
Speaker 1: it's only our self judgment that's the true enemy. And
Speaker 1: I got to cure so much of my own self
Speaker 1: judgment through all of that. It's almost like being like
Speaker 1: wonder woman, you know, per pre Pard, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. It's like the Great Supreme makes it so
Speaker 1: that you're invincible to all the criticism, anything else anybody
Speaker 1: has to say about you. When you get that true
Speaker 1: sense of worthiness, doesn't matter what anybody else thinks, doesn't
Speaker 1: matter what other misunderstandings are happening. And I want that
Speaker 1: for everybody. It's a superpower, but it's not given without
Speaker 1: the trial. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. Thank you.
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful and thank you Jay. Yeah, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you.
Speaker 2: Jay.
Speaker 1: You've been so good to me through it all. Thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2: So grateful to you too as well, for letting me
Speaker 2: be a small part of the journey, because it's one
Speaker 2: that you give me the bravery to tread myself. So
Speaker 2: thank you. If you love this episode, you love my
Speaker 2: interview with Will Smith on owning your truth and unlocking
Speaker 2: the power of manifestation. Anybody who hasn't spoken to their
Speaker 2: parents or their brother, call them right now.
Speaker 1: Don't think you're going to have a chance to call
Speaker 1: them tomorrow or next week.
Speaker 2: That opportunity with my father changed every relationship in my life.