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Speaker 1: Hyatt's West Kasova. We're taking a break this week for

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Speaker 1: the holidays, so here's an episode you might have missed.

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Speaker 2: Why what you want?

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Speaker 3: Win or loss? We take it.

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Speaker 4: It's tough when you lose, of course, and you learn

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Speaker 4: from it. But it's more than football. It's really family.

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Speaker 4: Like I know people for three years now and these

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Speaker 4: are my best friend and my sisters. They got my

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Speaker 4: back and we do it because we're happy.

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Speaker 5: These players come from all walks of life. They are nurses,

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Speaker 5: they are teachers, they are coaches. If you want to

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Speaker 5: see women playing tackle football at their best and most athletic,

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Speaker 5: this is where you would go.

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Speaker 3: What we here's the bag.

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Speaker 1: I'm West Kasova today on the Big Take. Bloom Business

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Speaker 1: Week contributor Mary Palan asks us simple but not so

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Speaker 1: simple question.

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Speaker 5: Why hasn't there been women's professional tackle football? Why isn't

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Speaker 5: it professionalized? Why aren't they sponsored?

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Speaker 6: So?

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Speaker 5: Women's professional football has been around in the United States

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Speaker 5: for a long time. The Women's Football Alliance was formed

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Speaker 5: in two thousand and nine, and today it has about

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Speaker 5: two thousand players across thirty two states. These are women

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Speaker 5: playing full contact, full tackle football. Just so we're clear,

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Speaker 5: not flag not rugby, not soccer. This is full tackle football.

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Speaker 1: And it's a professional league. But these players aren't doing

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Speaker 1: this full time.

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Speaker 5: Correct, So there are divisions within the Women's Football Alliance

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Speaker 5: for ranging from developing teams so it's brand new, you

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Speaker 5: just started a team, to what they call the professional

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Speaker 5: teams that are playing at a higher level of competition,

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Speaker 5: usually with more experienced players, teams and coaches.

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Speaker 7: Unlike the NFL.

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Speaker 5: They do not have billions of dollars of marketing and

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Speaker 5: sponsors behind them, so players often have to pay to

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Speaker 5: cover field rental, gear, travel, hotels, the basics, and most

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Speaker 5: folks are working full time jobs that are outside of football,

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Speaker 5: so practices are at night and on weekends.

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Speaker 7: They really really have to hustle to.

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Speaker 5: Make it sustainable, which I think is also just a

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Speaker 5: big testament to how much they obviously love the game.

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Speaker 1: And we'll be visiting a practice later in the show.

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Speaker 1: But Mary, when it comes to paying for their own gear,

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Speaker 1: I can't think of many sports that are more expensive

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Speaker 1: to suit up for than football.

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Speaker 5: Yes, football is an extremely expensive sport to become involved,

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Speaker 5: and anyone who's not a kid who's played football understands

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Speaker 5: that as well. You've got the gear, you know, you

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Speaker 5: need to have reps and officials. The other thing with football,

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Speaker 5: and what originally kind of interested in me in this too,

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Speaker 5: is physically it's extremely demanding. There's a lot of obviously

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Speaker 5: head injuries, which is something I and others have written

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Speaker 5: about pretty extensively.

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Speaker 7: And it's a rough sport, right. You can sprain an

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Speaker 7: ankle really quickly.

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Speaker 5: Often you might need pain medication, so it's not just like, oh, you're.

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Speaker 7: Popping to the gym for an hour or two.

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Speaker 5: It's a very very physically demanding sport for men and

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Speaker 5: for women, and it's very costly.

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Speaker 1: So how does it work as compared to men's professional

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Speaker 1: football when it comes to how many teams and how

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Speaker 1: many games and what's the season like?

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Speaker 5: So women's professional football starts where men's pretty much wraps up.

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Speaker 5: You know, we had the Super Bowl earlier this year.

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Speaker 5: This league is just getting started in late April, and

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Speaker 5: they play throughout the spring and the summer, and it

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Speaker 5: culminates in a championship that's played in Canton, Ohio at

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Speaker 5: the Football Hall of Fame. In the summer, these teams

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Speaker 5: are playing all over the country.

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Speaker 7: They travel extensively in order to do.

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Speaker 5: So, and you know, obviously it's kind of day and

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Speaker 5: night from the NFL, right. You know, the NFL has

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Speaker 5: a massive TV deal, It has huge stadiums with corporate

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Speaker 5: seats and tons of money pumping in from all sides,

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Speaker 5: which is very much the result of decades of work.

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Speaker 5: The Women's Football Alliance they have to work really hard

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Speaker 5: to kind of conjure up their local bases. You know,

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Speaker 5: it's interesting when I talk to a lot of these teams,

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Speaker 5: the coaches and the players. A lot of smaller mid

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Speaker 5: city teams are really well supported because there is not

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Speaker 5: an NFL team, And unlike the WNBA, which has a

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Speaker 5: partnership with the NBA, the WFA exists completely.

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Speaker 7: Separately from the NFL.

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Speaker 5: The NFL does not sponsor the Women's Football Alliance, they

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Speaker 5: don't partner with them, They do not have any kind

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Speaker 5: of relationship. So it's very different than what we see

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Speaker 5: in terms of the development of women's professional basketball.

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Speaker 1: And so who does pay for it? Is it all

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Speaker 1: through sponsorship and ticket sales? Where does the money come from?

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Speaker 5: So there isn't as much money and the structure is

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Speaker 5: pretty different than the NFL. So the NFL, we're pretty

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Speaker 5: familiar with you know, there's an owner or a small

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Speaker 5: group of owners who owns each team if you follow

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Speaker 5: the commander's sale, those are extremely lucrative deals. Usually a

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Speaker 5: lot of these teams are structured as nonprofits, and what

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Speaker 5: that allows the teams to do is do a lot

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Speaker 5: more grassroots fundraising, so they could go to a local

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Speaker 5: business and say, hey, cut us a check. It's a

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Speaker 5: tax right, and you're supporting the development of women's football.

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Speaker 5: And the nonprofit model also kind of changes the culture

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Speaker 5: of the teams a little bit.

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Speaker 7: One of the teams that I talked to, you.

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Speaker 5: Know, they have a program where they partner with girls

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Speaker 5: who play on junior and boys' high school teams and

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Speaker 5: they get to go to these games, and then the

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Speaker 5: women who play WFA football go and support the girls

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Speaker 5: at their games, especially if they hear that there's bullying

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Speaker 5: or anything else like that. So it's a very different culture,

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Speaker 5: I would argue than the NFL, where you've got agents,

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Speaker 5: you've got drafts, you've got multimillion dollar deals individual players

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Speaker 5: are you know, negotiating the players here have very very

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Speaker 5: different headwinds. The WFA is not shy about, you know,

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Speaker 5: the financial disparities here. Which we see across men's and

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Speaker 5: women's sports. During this year Super Bowl, they did this

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Speaker 5: campaign called give Us a Second, and it was kind

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Speaker 5: of their cheeky way of pointing out that with a

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Speaker 5: half minute ad that costs seven million dollars during the

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Speaker 5: Super Bowl, a donation equivalent to what they paid for

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Speaker 5: a single second, So about two hundred and thirty thousand

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Speaker 5: dollars could sponsor entire season of women's pro football. That

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Speaker 5: isn't just like a pay gap, that's like a pay stratosphere.

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Speaker 5: That's a different, different world.

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Speaker 1: And of course it's because this league just doesn't have

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Speaker 1: the kind of following that pro foot, probably most popular

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Speaker 1: sport in America does, And if a lot of these

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Speaker 1: teams are nonprofits, the players are paying for their own

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Speaker 1: gear and travel, and the budgets are so small, how

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Speaker 1: is it really a pro sport.

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Speaker 5: There's a long history of the debate around what is

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Speaker 5: a professional athlete. I'm thinking of the Amateur Athletic Union AAU,

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Speaker 5: and a lot of the fights that runners went up

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Speaker 5: against the Olympic Committee and the nineteen seventies because they

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Speaker 5: weren't being paid to race, which is crazy when you

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Speaker 5: think about how many shoes Nike has sold on the

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Speaker 5: feet of runners, right, So I think that they want

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Speaker 5: it to be professionalized. It's like the whole mantra from

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Speaker 5: a Field of dreams. If you build it, they will come.

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Speaker 5: Has been at the root of so many terrible stadium

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Speaker 5: deals and arena deals. But here you see them applying

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Speaker 5: at kind of that kind of thinking to a league.

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Speaker 5: If you call it professional, if you increase the athleticism,

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Speaker 5: if you have committed athletes, if you treat it seriously,

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Speaker 5: then sponsors hopefully will as well, and fans will want

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Speaker 5: to watch as well.

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Speaker 7: We say professional because we want to see.

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Speaker 5: The best of anybody competing and playing. And as it

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Speaker 5: stands now, they have the whole world of women's professional football.

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Speaker 7: You know, it's them.

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Speaker 5: So I think the hope is that with time that

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Speaker 5: it grows and develops, and that the players will get paid.

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Speaker 7: One of the things I think.

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Speaker 5: About a lot in sports is when you show up

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Speaker 5: just because things are the way they are doesn't mean

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Speaker 5: it's right or the way things are going to stay.

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Speaker 7: You know, if you look at a.

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Speaker 5: Sport like tennis, Serena Williams outsells most of, if not all,

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Speaker 5: of the men when she was, you know, competing before

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Speaker 5: her retirement. So we have a lot of these assumptions

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Speaker 5: about revenue and women's sports that aren't necessarily true or dated.

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Speaker 5: You know, our women's national team outpaces our men in

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Speaker 5: TV ratings all the time. You know, during March Madness

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Speaker 5: with women's basketball, you saw that when they were given decent,

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Speaker 5: if not equal, slots, they did amazing in the ratings.

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Speaker 5: So I think that this is also kind of under

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Speaker 5: that umbrella for me.

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Speaker 1: So when you were reporting, you spoke to a lot

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Speaker 1: of the players, What did they tell you about what

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Speaker 1: it's like to try to hold down a normal life

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Speaker 1: on top of being a professional football player.

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Speaker 5: You know, it's interesting because I parallel a lot of

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Speaker 5: the conversations about injuries in the sport. You know, we

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Speaker 5: have this quote in the story, injuries are a part

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Speaker 5: of life, and I think a lot of women feel

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Speaker 5: that way, And I think it's always silly going back

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Speaker 5: to assumptions. You know, you know, it's really hard pregnancy.

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Speaker 5: So where do we get this idea that women can't

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Speaker 5: do tough physical athletic things, Because last I checked, for

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Speaker 5: a long long time, women's bodies were doing all sorts

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Speaker 5: of really impressive feats. And you know that said, I

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Speaker 5: think most women have to juggle a ton of stuff

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Speaker 5: all the time. They're so committed to this sport that

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Speaker 5: they are willing to make the time in addition to

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Speaker 5: caretaking duties which often fall to women, in addition to

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Speaker 5: professional ambitions. And you know, there are even some people

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Speaker 5: I talk to where their daughters play. Their son is

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Speaker 5: playing football, so they wanted to get involved as well.

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Speaker 5: So it also can become kind of a family event,

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Speaker 5: the same way that a lot of sports do too.

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Speaker 5: But instead of maybe you know, the dad, it's the

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Speaker 5: mom who's really kind of leading the charge on that.

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Speaker 1: Mary. We spoke to Asia Wisecarver. She's the assistant coach

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Speaker 1: of player development with a Portland Fighting Shockwave, and here's

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Speaker 1: what she had to say.

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Speaker 8: When we get visibility and accessibility in marketing and dollars invested,

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Speaker 8: people show up, they want to play, they want to watch.

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Speaker 8: And you can see that even like the WNBA, it's

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Speaker 8: not the people this all of a sudden love women's basketball.

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Speaker 8: So people can watch basketball now, but I don't think,

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Speaker 8: you know, the interest is necessarily different.

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Speaker 1: And Mary, she's talking about people watching, do they pack

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Speaker 1: the stands at these games. Who are the fans?

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Speaker 7: Sure?

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Speaker 5: So I'm based in Los Angeles and angel City, which

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Speaker 5: is our national women's Soccer League team, is packing out

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Speaker 5: Bank of California Stadium and it's second season. You would

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Speaker 5: think they've been playing there for twenty years. I think

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Speaker 5: it's a exactly what she's talking about. You know, it's

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Speaker 5: interesting she's in Portland. So this story I reported on

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Speaker 5: the heels of something Portland. I wrote about this bar

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Speaker 5: called the Sports Bra, which is the first bar in

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Speaker 5: the country that only plays women's sports, and it's packed.

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Speaker 5: It is a great neighborhood vibe. There was a line

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Speaker 5: out the door and I was actually there for a

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Speaker 5: Thorns game. The Portland Thorns, which is their soccer team,

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Speaker 5: is really really well supported and kind of beloved in

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Speaker 5: the community, and I think Portland is a great example

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Speaker 5: of a.

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Speaker 7: Community that really sports.

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Speaker 5: Women's sports are trying to get a WMA team now,

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Speaker 5: and exactly it goes back to kind of these bigger

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Speaker 5: systemic issues in sports. Are women getting the same time slots,

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Speaker 5: Are they getting the same marketing budgets? Are they getting

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Speaker 5: the same adviys from sponsors? You know? Leading into these events?

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Speaker 5: There are all these things that go around sports. And

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Speaker 5: this is an anecdotal observation, but I think people want

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Speaker 5: to watch great competition, men, women, old, young, however you

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Speaker 5: want to slice it. Sports are stories with an uncertain outcome.

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Speaker 5: That's why we tune in to watch anything. And I

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Speaker 5: think that that's part of why when you give an

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Speaker 5: equal platform, there's drama, there's plot, you want to know

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Speaker 5: who's going to win. It's like this primal thing that's

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Speaker 5: wired into us. So I think that she's a great

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Speaker 5: example of, like, you know, the shockwave is right in

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Speaker 5: the heart of that. I think Portland exemplifies that definitely.

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Speaker 1: More with Mary in just a bit, but after the break,

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Speaker 1: we head to the field to watch a women's pro

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Speaker 1: football team in action, Ladies disciplin. We wanted to see

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Speaker 1: what a women's pro football practice looks like. So our

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Speaker 1: producers Michael Flarro and Mowbarrow went out to watch the

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Speaker 1: DC Divas. They're a pro team that plays in suburban

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Speaker 1: Virginia just outside Washington, DC.

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Speaker 9: Dava Jumper, we did what what what?

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Speaker 10: My name is Slice EPs Kinglee known as TIG. I

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Speaker 10: am a middle linebacker. I'm been playing for it is

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Speaker 10: my eleventh season playing professional tackle football my day job,

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Speaker 10: I am actually in the military, even in the military

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Speaker 10: Air Force for twenty two years. I've been playing sports

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Speaker 10: all my life, So I started playing at I think

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Speaker 10: seven years old and I was on my elementary school

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Speaker 10: basketball team with all guys. I've been playing sports with

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Speaker 10: all guys all my life. So when I found out

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Speaker 10: about the professional tackle team, I was ecstatic. It was

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Speaker 10: a dream come true for me because you know, I'm

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Speaker 10: finally able to actually play tackle football.

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Speaker 11: You clearly love it. What's the biggest draw for you? Like,

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Speaker 11: what keeps you going coming out to these practices, going

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Speaker 11: to games all year?

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Speaker 10: Oh man, hitting somebody, hitting somebody, and it's nothing they

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Speaker 10: can do about it. They just gotta get up and

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Speaker 10: keep moving. It's a stress reliever. You know, It's amazing.

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Speaker 7: It's a rush, really.

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Speaker 3: Is Felicia Donaldson.

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Speaker 12: I play offensive line, right and left guard, and for

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Speaker 12: my day job, I'm.

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Speaker 3: A trained lawyer and immigration.

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Speaker 12: However, what I'm doing right now is in the process

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Speaker 12: of starting my own nonprofit to focus on raising awareness

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Speaker 12: and women in football. So today Faith Robinson and I

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Speaker 12: she's on the defense. We visited Eastern Senior High School

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Speaker 12: we did a presentation for their girls flag football team,

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Speaker 12: and our hope is that we continue building this relationship

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Speaker 12: with them because there's a stereotype that comes along with

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Speaker 12: female football players, and it's like to show like, no, actually,

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Speaker 12: we're lawyers, we're chemists, some of us work for NASA.

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Speaker 12: We have engineers, we have teachers, we have law enforcement,

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Speaker 12: we have The gamut runs wild in terms of all

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Speaker 12: the different kinds of careers and pathways you have in

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Speaker 12: addition to being mothers, but sisters, aunties, caretakers, and football players.

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Speaker 12: So just giving them that opportunity to understand that you

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Speaker 12: can go so far.

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Speaker 3: So it was just great. It felt like, these are

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Speaker 3: my little sisters.

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Speaker 11: What's the end goal? What does it look like?

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Speaker 12: I want them to be able to get paid to play,

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Speaker 12: Like literally, that's the end goal for me. Conversation to

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Speaker 12: play full recognition from the NFL and for them to

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Speaker 12: embrace the women's football team, not see us as competitors,

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Speaker 12: but see us as equals.

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Speaker 1: In between the tackle drills, Michael and Moe also spoke

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Speaker 1: to some of the divas coaches and front office staff.

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Speaker 10: Right.

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Speaker 3: Alicia Marphall.

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Speaker 2: They called me coach Ghost and I'm the head coach

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Speaker 2: of the DC Divas.

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Speaker 3: I was a player.

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Speaker 2: I was played for the Devas for ten years. I

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Speaker 2: was a captain, but I was also a leader on

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Speaker 2: the team. At times if we didn't have a coach,

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Speaker 2: I ran the practices for the offensive line. Captains have

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Speaker 2: played a huge role in this team for twenty years,

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Speaker 2: really the backbone of the support for.

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Speaker 7: The coaches in history.

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Speaker 2: Generally, our coaches have been men until past recent years.

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Speaker 2: When we won national championship in twenty fifteen, Alison Fisher

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Speaker 2: was the first Dave to become head coach, so it's

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Speaker 2: a pretty monumental time for our team. That is one

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Speaker 2: of my focuses is to grow women in the sport,

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Speaker 2: especially our alumni. We are about six hundred strong alumni,

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Speaker 2: and there's no reason why players should retire and not

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Speaker 2: stay with the organization, whether it's marketing, COO. Because we

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Speaker 2: are a nonprofit. We have grown so much to where

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Speaker 2: we have a chief Operating Officer, Director of Football ops

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Speaker 2: and things of that nature. So we're just growing and

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Speaker 2: it's natural that women grow with the sport.

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Speaker 13: What would you say is the difference and someone just

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Speaker 13: walking up tonight like me saying what's the difference between

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Speaker 13: women's tackle.

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Speaker 7: Football and men men tackle football. What answer would you

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Speaker 7: give them?

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Speaker 2: The playbook that these ladies learn is a definitely at

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Speaker 2: minimum a high level collegiate playbook and NFL playbook. A

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Speaker 2: lot of the staff that I have, majority of them

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Speaker 2: are all head coach caliber coaches or are our head

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Speaker 2: coaches somewhere else. But these guys are our backbone. They

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Speaker 2: truly whole hardly believe in what we're doing. The difference

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Speaker 2: is the learning curve. Men have the liberty to not

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Speaker 2: have to work. They can train all day long, they

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Speaker 2: can go to football practice, train some days a week.

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Speaker 2: They have a nutrition as somebody cooking their meal, somebody

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Speaker 2: driving this this big fat salary. These women out here

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Speaker 2: they don't have that. They don't have that. All of

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Speaker 2: them have come from a very very long workday. Majority

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Speaker 2: of them are mothers and high ranking professions, you know.

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Speaker 2: So it is a hard task to carrying. They're out

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Speaker 2: here until sometimes eleven thirty twelve o'clock at night.

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Speaker 3: That's the difference.

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Speaker 2: I think we work a lot harder because it's not

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Speaker 2: given to us. Man.

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Speaker 6: My name is Susannah Brown aka Susie Brown. I am

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Speaker 6: one of the offensive line coaches, and I am an analyst.

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Speaker 6: I think one of the things that is unique about

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Speaker 6: women's sports period, and I think you saw it a

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Speaker 6: lot during COVID, you know, with the bubble with the

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Speaker 6: WNBA versus the NBA. We have a lot more kids around,

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Speaker 6: and you know, because it's a lot more likely that

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Speaker 6: you have women who are going to be the primary caretaker.

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Speaker 6: So like the fact that we have kids on the sideline,

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Speaker 6: you know, during games, at practices and stuff like that.

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Speaker 6: Like that's something that I think is unique to adult

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Speaker 6: women's sports.

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Speaker 11: Has anyone ever been taken them back? When they're like, oh,

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Speaker 11: you say you played tackle football, women's tackle football? What

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Speaker 11: do you say in response? How does the conversation go?

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Speaker 6: Usually there are lots of follow up questions. They automatically

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Speaker 6: want to see if I'm aggressive. That's usually some questions.

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Speaker 6: I was at a music festival and there was a

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Speaker 6: guy who's like, oh, can you hit? And I'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 6: I could hit. I play that like I was. I

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Speaker 6: think I just made the All Star team that year,

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Speaker 6: and he is like, prove it. So like I literally

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Speaker 6: got out of my and like he got down in

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Speaker 6: a defensive line stance. And I drove her right back

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Speaker 6: and he was like, okay, all right, let me try akad,

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Speaker 6: let me try again. He's like, I wasn't ready.

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Speaker 7: I wasn't ready.

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Speaker 6: But it's definitely you get people who are non believers

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Speaker 6: until they see it, you know, sort of got to

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Speaker 6: see it to believe it because they've never seen it before.

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Speaker 6: I was a very aggressive basketball player and so finding football.

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Speaker 6: The reason I play football and not basketball is the aggression. Like,

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Speaker 6: the aggression is the reason and for like, you know,

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Speaker 6: being able to hit somebody and like assert your dominance

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Speaker 6: over somebody and just like it's it's a rush on

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Speaker 6: like no other.

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Speaker 7: I'm Lois Cook.

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Speaker 13: I'm vice president and defensive back of the GC Divas.

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Speaker 7: My day job is to grow the game.

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Speaker 11: For someone who's never been to a women's Fallow game,

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Speaker 11: what do you say to them? Like, what do you say,

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Speaker 11: like why they should come out to watch a game?

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Speaker 13: First of all, it's a fun experience. We are a

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Speaker 13: family friendly organization.

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Speaker 7: We have contests and giveaways. We have kids come down

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Speaker 7: and do.

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Speaker 13: Dance offs, and you know they do a uniform race

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Speaker 13: where they try to hurry up and put on the uniform.

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Speaker 13: But what you get is you get women out here

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Speaker 13: who are not only a lot of things during the day,

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Speaker 13: but then they all come together at night to play football.

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Speaker 13: And when you have that type of determination, you know,

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Speaker 13: despite all the odds, the challenges with lack of resources.

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Speaker 13: As you see, we're practicing late at night. There's kids

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Speaker 13: out here, you know, and sometimes you know, childcare is

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Speaker 13: an issue, and so you know it's a hurdle, but

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Speaker 13: we're out here still doing it. And when you have

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Speaker 13: that type of determination and that type of perseverance, no

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Speaker 13: matter the obstacle that women aren't still out here playing

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Speaker 13: this game, you see that translate on the field. You

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Speaker 13: see the passion, you see the intensity, and you see

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Speaker 13: the grid. It's interesting because women who play this game,

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Speaker 13: they start playing typically they start playing at eighteen years

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Speaker 13: or older. So we didn't grow with the game. We

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Speaker 13: didn't have anything to funnel into this sport. So recruiting

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Speaker 13: and just finding people who want to play is it's

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Speaker 13: a big deal. We got to find them so and

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Speaker 13: it's a lot of word of mouth, so a lot

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Speaker 13: of the players have friends and family. We put a

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Speaker 13: you know, social media as a big thing. We have

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Speaker 13: multiple tryouts so that people do have the opportunity maybe

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Speaker 13: they didn't see the first one. We have three to

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Speaker 13: four tryouts throughout the fall season so that we can

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Speaker 13: get more people in here. Pre season will typically be,

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Speaker 13: you know, with most of the teams January through March,

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Speaker 13: where we'll.

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Speaker 7: Have three practices a week.

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Speaker 13: We'll also combine that with virtual practices, so maybe there's

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Speaker 13: one to two days virtually and then three days on

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Speaker 13: the field, and then when we get into the season,

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Speaker 13: we have two days per week on the field with

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Speaker 13: the game day being on a Saturday, and then we'll

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Speaker 13: have film study and then we'll have unit meetings virtually

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Speaker 13: as well, so we pretty much use up our whole week.

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Speaker 13: I personally have four sons. They're ages three through sixteen,

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Speaker 13: and so it is a juggle, but you find a rhythm,

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Speaker 13: you know, when you are passionate and when you want

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Speaker 13: to do something and you have the love for this game,

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Speaker 13: you find a way to make it work. And so

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Speaker 13: whether you're having your kids out here with you or

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Speaker 13: whether you are you know, doing the crock pod in

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Speaker 13: the morning because you know you're going to be at

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Speaker 13: price this at night, you find these little things to

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Speaker 13: just kind of support the game. We used to play

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Speaker 13: on grass fields where we had to use our headlights.

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Speaker 7: From our cars.

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Speaker 13: And this is real talk, to shine light on the

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Speaker 13: field just so that we can get that practice time in.

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Speaker 13: We used to practice in a parking lot with no grass,

439
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 13: just doing walkthroughs because we didn't have the resources. So

440
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,560
Speaker 13: we have come a long way, and it's so important

441
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,439
Speaker 13: to have the support of our community and those around us,

442
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,720
Speaker 13: those who support the men who play. You know, a

443
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 13: lot of people say that they want to see women

444
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,439
Speaker 13: with these big, powerful hits, and just like the men do,

445
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,159
Speaker 13: and guess what, we do it too. We have those hits.

446
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:37,920
Speaker 13: But if you want to see the women do better,

447
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:39,240
Speaker 13: you have to invest in us.

448
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:46,360
Speaker 8: There you go, they're going, that's how you run.

449
00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,159
Speaker 1: When we come back. Mary Palan talks about what it'll

450
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,159
Speaker 1: take for the Divas and other women's pro football teams

451
00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 1: to make it big. Mary, when you look at men's

452
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 1: professional football, so much of it now is about money,

453
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 1: huge salaries, television deals, sponsorships. With women's pro football, it

454
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 1: seems to still be mostly about love of the.

455
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,680
Speaker 5: Game, definitely, and I think love of the game also

456
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,119
Speaker 5: drives the men's side. I think most people don't realize

457
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 5: the average NFL career is about three years, and that's

458
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 5: if you're lucky enough to make it to the NFL,

459
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 5: which obviously the vast majority of D one players do not,

460
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,199
Speaker 5: and the vast majority of high school players do not

461
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,160
Speaker 5: make it to a Division one program. But with the women,

462
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,439
Speaker 5: that's not even on the table as a carrot, and

463
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 5: that changes the dynamics a lot. It isn't a D

464
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 5: one scholarship sport, and there isn't some big paycheck and

465
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 5: a flurry of agents that will represent you and get

466
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 5: you millions of dollars for you to earn by a

467
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 5: pretty young age. So I think that heart you really

468
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 5: feel it when you watch and you see thecices, and

469
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,719
Speaker 5: just from a time management standpoint, I mean, it's really incredible.

470
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 5: Part of what the Women's Football Alliance also has to

471
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,920
Speaker 5: work on is when you go to the NFL, you've

472
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 5: had years of basically being in a feeder system, you know,

473
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 5: whether it's Pop Orner or your college. They often have

474
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 5: to take players who are rugby players, soccer players, etc.

475
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 5: And really educate them on the game, on plays, on

476
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 5: the way you move your body being very different obviously

477
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 5: with this kind of padding, you know, I talked to

478
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 5: some rugby players who were like, we think it's crazy.

479
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 5: There is padding, you know in rugby, we just go

480
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 5: out there, and some say even more dangerous.

481
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 7: I don't know. I haven't seen the data.

482
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 5: So there's an educational component that also has to happen

483
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 5: on top of it, and I think to do something

484
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 5: like that on top of work and family and all

485
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 5: these other things really shows that folks really love it.

486
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 5: And it's not surprising to me that the WFA has

487
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 5: been this huge feeder system for female coaches and refs

488
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 5: in the NFL. All the more surprising to me, honestly

489
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 5: that the NFL doesn't back it, because it's been this

490
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,120
Speaker 5: incredible pipeline of talent for them, for women.

491
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 7: Who really know the game and really want to be

492
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:01,640
Speaker 7: immersed in it.

493
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that physical aspect of the game, because

494
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 1: a lot of these players are not in their young twenties.

495
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,199
Speaker 1: They have a whole range of ages of people who

496
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: are showing up to play nationally.

497
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 5: Obviously, we're having a lot of conversations about head injuries

498
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 5: and just overall safety in men's professional football and men's

499
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 5: football at all levels, and a lot of the conversations

500
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 5: I had with players about safety were very similar to

501
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,640
Speaker 5: those I've had with men playing the game. They love

502
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 5: the game. It's also part of the exhilaration and the

503
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 5: high of it. I think one of the things that

504
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 5: shifted is kind of what do we know about the risks?

505
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,879
Speaker 5: You know, ten, fifteen, twenty years ago, you had a

506
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 5: professional league that was in many cases denying outright that

507
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 5: football is dangerous. I think that's you know, shifted pretty dramatically,

508
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 5: especially with the big settlements that have been paid out.

509
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 5: You know, I grew up in a house my brother

510
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 5: played football, my dad played football.

511
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 7: I grew up in Eugene, Oregon. Football as part of life.

512
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 3: And when I was.

513
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 5: Reporting this story, and what originally interested me in it

514
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 5: was like, well, what are our assumptions about men, men

515
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,239
Speaker 5: and boys playing this sport that we know can be

516
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 5: really harmful. So if we're saying it's okay for boys

517
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 5: and men to do it, why are we not saying

518
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 5: women are doing it? And I think we live in

519
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 5: this interesting time with our assumptions about female athletes.

520
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 7: You know, mixed martial arts is a sport I've.

521
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 5: Written about, and Dana White, you know, has been the

522
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 5: face of the UFC for a long time. I mean,

523
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 5: he told me he didn't think people would want to

524
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 5: watch women beat each other up. And then Ronda Rowsi

525
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 5: and Holly Holms show up and all these other you know,

526
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 5: amazing women, Ronda Rowsi being a professionally trained judo athlete like,

527
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 5: and she.

528
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 7: Made more money than the men you know for a

529
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 7: while there.

530
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 5: So I think that that's also something that's shifting as well.

531
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 5: And also it reflects the huge fan base that the

532
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 5: NFL has actively cultivated of women who've been fans of

533
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:44,880
Speaker 5: men's football.

534
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,199
Speaker 7: The NFL's job is to grow the game of football.

535
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 5: They have pumped a ton of money into trying to

536
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 5: cultivate female fans in the face of paying cheerleaders to

537
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 5: seventy five an hour, in the face of horrible domestic

538
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 5: violence cases, and I think they've been successful in a

539
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 5: lot of ways. So it's this interesting tension to me

540
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 5: between people wanting the money and the eyeballs of female fans.

541
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 5: But when it comes to them getting on the field,

542
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 5: there's still a stigma. There's still something unresolved there. And

543
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 5: these players are just smack in.

544
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:12,640
Speaker 7: The middle of it.

545
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,959
Speaker 5: You know, they're out there playing and they don't care

546
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 5: about any of that. They love the game and they

547
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 5: love playing.

548
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: Asia Wiskarfer, she's the assistant coach in Portland who we

549
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: heard from earlier, also talked about balancing that risk of

550
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: injury in football.

551
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 8: The fear is if there's an injury, regardless of what

552
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,199
Speaker 8: it is, and I don't think it's football specific, it

553
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 8: interferes with your entire life. If you're a mother, if

554
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 8: you work on your feet, there's like lots of reasons

555
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 8: why you would be considering that. But the opportunity to play,

556
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 8: I think the ROI in that is so much higher

557
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 8: that I don't think it's a pervasive concern that keeps

558
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 8: people from playing. Not by the time they make it

559
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 8: to the field.

560
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: Mary, I think that idea of the ROI, the return

561
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: onun investment of the game and everything that they get

562
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: out of it is worth that injury risk when they

563
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: do the calculation.

564
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 5: Yes, I think the ROI of women in sports, you know,

565
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 5: you can't underestimate that.

566
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 7: I mean, we live in a culture that's.

567
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 5: Constantly telling women, including professional athletes, you have to look

568
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 5: a certain way. Often sports is shot by men and

569
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 5: through a male gaze, whether it's your sleek ad or

570
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 5: it's the broadcast you see on TV, and I think,

571
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 5: you know, I can't even tell you how many women

572
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 5: I've talked to across all sports, football and otherwise where

573
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 5: it's part of the empowerment of I'm using my body

574
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 5: as a tool, I'm using it as a machine.

575
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: Mary, You've talked about how the stands are full of fans,

576
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: that people who are aware of the sport and watch

577
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 1: it really love it. What is the ambition for this league?

578
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: Do they set their sights on an NFL for women

579
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: at the same level.

580
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 5: I think it's a little unclear kind of what the

581
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 5: goal is. But I think you know, when you consider

582
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 5: that they call themselves professional football, when you consider that

583
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 5: they are going to have their championship game on ESPN two,

584
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 5: you can read between the lines and see that you

585
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 5: know they do want to be right up there, and

586
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 5: that's not a crazy goal. Look at where the WNBA

587
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 5: was when it started in the mid nineties and where

588
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 5: it is today.

589
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 7: Look at women's soccer.

590
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 5: I grew up watching me a Ham and now there

591
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 5: actually is a sustainable, viable league after many you know,

592
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 5: starts and stops, and so I don't think that's a

593
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 5: crazy idea that there could be a league that has

594
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 5: its own fans, it has its own stars, that has

595
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 5: its own contracts and things. So I see no reason

596
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 5: why they can't follow in the footsteps of these other

597
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 5: leagues that have, you know, since blossomed.

598
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: When you're talking about trying to build out this league

599
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: and making it into really a more professional league, a

600
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: lot of that has to do with sponsorship. Where's the

601
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: money coming from right now, and where do they need

602
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: to take it?

603
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 7: Like it or not.

604
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 5: Sports are business, even though we kind of talk about

605
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 5: it with like a religious passion, and it's a multi

606
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 5: billion dollar industry, and right now, the folks who write

607
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 5: the checks for professional sports are by and.

608
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 7: Large white men.

609
00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,959
Speaker 5: That means that a lot of things like the women's

610
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 5: ball lines can get ignored. And you need sponsors to

611
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 5: grow the sport. You need it to pay players, you

612
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 5: need it to pay coaches, you need it to procure venues,

613
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 5: you need it to make sure that doctors are around,

614
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 5: And there's a lot of room to grow there. Right now,

615
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 5: players are doing basically their own fundraising at a very

616
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 5: grassroots level. You know, when you start a sport, that's

617
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 5: often the case. It's hard to imagine, but you know,

618
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 5: once upon a time the NFL was like a small

619
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 5: niche thing. As well, nothing's huge out the gate, we

620
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 5: like it or not. We live in a capital society

621
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 5: and money determines a lot of how and when things grow.

622
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 5: You know, at some point sponsors realize like, wow, women

623
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 5: are fifty percent of the population and they might be

624
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 5: interested in this. And millions of people, women and men

625
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 5: watch football and are really interested in it, and so

626
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 5: often sponsors. It's interesting they're often late to the game

627
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 5: when it comes to women's sports. The track record is

628
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 5: not great in terms of sponsors and broadcasters, right, So

629
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 5: there's a lot that still needs to happen.

630
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 7: And you know, who knows. I think that you.

631
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 5: Know, sports is really behind in terms of representation off

632
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 5: the field of play, and that obviously impacts what happens

633
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 5: on the field of play. So it'll be interesting to

634
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,479
Speaker 5: see as this generation of Women's Football Alliance players kind

635
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 5: of moves on in their careers. We already know they're

636
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 5: in the NFL and coaching capacity, so it'll be interesting

637
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 5: to see kind of how these players and the alumni

638
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 5: end up affecting the finances of this that they very

639
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 5: much have lived. When you watch the game, it makes

640
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 5: you realize how many assumptions you have about football, and.

641
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 7: When you watch women playing it.

642
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 5: To be honest, I went to the Cali War practice

643
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 5: and it was surreal to me because I have never

644
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 5: seen people who look like me play tackle football. I

645
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 5: can't even tell you how many hours of tackle football

646
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 5: I watched over my lifetime, right, and it made me think, well,

647
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 5: why haven't I seen this? You know, I read about

648
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 5: sports for a living. I grew up in a football mecha.

649
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 5: I grew up in a football house. Like, why has

650
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 5: it taken thirty some odd years for me to see

651
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 5: something like this, especially when women have made such strides

652
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 5: in combat sports. So I think it's a I think

653
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 5: it's one of those stories. You know, when you're writing

654
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 5: a piece for a magazine or newspaper, part of your

655
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 5: brain is always like, how will this age?

656
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 7: And I hope that this is like a period piece.

657
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 5: I hope that I look back on this story and

658
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 5: I'm like, oh my gosh, I remember when I wrote

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00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 5: about women's football, when people had to pay when they

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00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 5: were scrambling for sponsors, when they were scrambling, you know,

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00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 5: and that happens in sports all the time you write

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00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 5: about like the rookie and then they go on to

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00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 5: win a US Open or a big title or whatever.

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00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 5: And so I very much felt like that when I

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00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 5: was writing about this, that even though it's been around

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00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 5: since two thousand and nine, it's like this timestamp piece

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00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 5: of like, here's this snapshot of where this sport is

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00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 5: in twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 7: Who knows where it's going to go.

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Speaker 1: Mary, Thanks so much for coming on the show.

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Speaker 7: Thanks for having me. This is fun.

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00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to us here at The Big Take.

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00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more

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Speaker 1: shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: wherever you listen. And we'd love to hear from you emails, questions,

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00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: or comments to at Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer

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00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: of The Big Take is Vicky Vergalina. Our senior producer

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00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,120
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00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: Filde Garcia is our engineer. Our original music was composed

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00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: by Leo Sidron. I'm West Kasova. We'll be back tomorrow

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Speaker 1: with another Big Take.